HC Deb 17 January 1989 vol 145 cc250-6

Considered again in Committee.

Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.

Mr. Allason

This is an important issue because we have lost the opportunity of parliamentary oversight and we have greatly increased the burden on the Home Secretary. Surely one lesson of the past must be that the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary of the day should be well informed of the activities of the Security Service, and what better way is there to keep them informed than through an annual report that could be examined not just by them but by the whole House?

Mr. Maclennan

The hon. Member for Torbay (Mr. Allason) said that we had lost the argument for parliamentary scrutiny. I believe that he is right in thinking that the Government will not concede that point at a later stage. They are a fortiori unlikely to concede the scrutiny by the back door for which the hon. Gentleman's amendment would provide. The hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) is being over-optimistic if he thinks that the Government will be prepared to allow the director-general to report to the House on his duties. There is, in any event, a limitation upon the commissioner's ability to report on the Security Service.

The hon. Member for Torbay gave the impression—I do not know whether it was deliberate—that it would be within the ambit of the commissioner's duties to consider the matters set out in amendment No. 12. As the Bill stands, the commissioner has no such general authority or oversight of the Security Service. His tasks are strictly limited to the matter of warrants covered in clause 3 and to the matter of complaint set out in schedule 1. There is no responsibility upon the commissioner to consider the general practice of the Security Service that would enable him to answer questions of the kind set out in the amendment. There is no general responsibility for surveying the priorities of the service or the particular problems that the service faces, save as they may be revealed by his work in conducting the inquiries that are referred to him.

Mr. Allason

May I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to subsection 4(4), which requires every member of the Security Service to supply to the commissioner whatever information he needs to discharge his function? My amendment suggests that we add those responsibilities to his function.

Mr. Maclennan

The hon. Gentleman may have overlooked the fact that the Bill describes an officer's functions quite precisely in both clause 3 and in schedule 1. Those functions do not include matters of the kind to which the hon. Gentleman has referred. If an officer were to have the duty of reporting to anyone, for example, to the Prime Minister within Government, or to Parliament, it would be necessary to give the commissioner a much more wide-ranging remit than I believe it is the Government's intention to do. I do not raise that point in a spirit of carping criticism about the hon. Gentleman's intentions but simply to draw attention to the extremely limited nature of the role of the commissioner, who is not set in oversight over the conduct of the Security Service. It might reassure hon. Members if there were some independent oversight over the whole of the Security Service, but that is not the case.

The hon. Member for Bradford, South has said that that is for the director-general, but the director-general is not in oversight of the service; he is the embodiment of the service. He is the executive at the apex of the structure. Therefore, he is not charged with reporting, independently, on how the service is working.

One of the great weaknesses of the Bill to which, perhaps inadvertently, the hon. Member for Torbay has drawn our attention is that there is no independent judicial or other supervising authority to look at the sort of matters that he believes should not only be supervised but reported upon to the responsible Minister and to Parliament.

Mr. John Patten

I listened carefully to what the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) said in his description of the provisions under the relevant clause and schedule, just as I listened to what my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr. Allason) said, and to what the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) said when he opened the debate on this group of amendments. However, apart from the proposals for a 10-year review—more of that later—which I do not think would add anything, the other amendments could lead to dangerous breaches in the barrier of secrecy which must protect the work of the service to make it efficient.

Let us look first at the idea of a director-general's annual report. There is no advantage in making such a report public for those who have no responsibility for the work of the service. Although that would certainly satisfy the curiosity of some—perhaps many—people, it would not do anything other than present a high risk to the security of the nation from time to time. Those who are hostile to this country will be interested in the policies and priorities of those who protect us. Risk assessments and assessments by directors-general of where they think that the threats are coming from are meat and drink to the intelligence agencies of other countries, ditto any explanation of our resources and capacities. Those are exactly the sort of managerial issues upon which the director-general must concentrate in his responsibilies for the efficiency of the service. Nor is there any need to require the Secretary of State to review decisions that were made 10 years ago, probably by his predecessors, as another amendment suggests. It is not the case that every threat that was live 10 years ago is necessarily dead 10 years later.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett

rose

Mr. Patten

I will give way in a moment.

There may be a latency in threats to the security of the country, as can be seen from the history of this century when we have tried to defend the country against such threats.

Dr. Alan Glyn (Windsor and Maidenhead)

rose

Mr. Patten

I will give way first to the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish and then to my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor and Maidenhead (Dr. Glyn).

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that I took that into account by making it possible for the new Home Secretary—the one 10 years later—to decide whether or not there was the opportunity to disclose that information? All that this group of amendments does, which I believe is what the House wants, is to appreciate that there will be continuing pressure for accountability of the security services. Unless the Home Secretary concedes a little more than he has so far, that problem will not go away for the Government and the Bill will not meet the Government's aims.

Mr. Patten

I understand the reasoned and reasonable way in which the hon. Gentleman has both drafted his amendment and spoken to it, but he does not take into account another important factor. We do not have the benefit of the right hon. Member for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Rees) in the Chamber at present, but there are constitutional issues involved. Sometimes, though not so often these days, there are changes of Government within a decade and issues about ministerial decision taking is the time of one Government being looked at by Ministers in the time of another. I do not believe that the amendment of the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish deals with that point.

Dr. Glyn

Intelligence is a jigsaw and even after 10 years the jigsaw might be completed with seemingly innocuous information which could nevertheless be important in the jigsaw.

Mr. Patten

Characteristically, my hon. Friend has put his finger right on it. From time to time intelligence can be a jigsaw and there may be matters which for 10 or 15 years have lurked in the undergrowth, but which suddenly turn out to be matters of relevance to the security of this country.

As the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland has said, under the Bill an independent commissioner—we must not lose sight of the fact that the commissioner is a senior judge—is charged with reviewing the exercise by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State of the powers under clause 3 and to report in the way which has been described. That is a better safeguard than a report on warrants made a decade ago under the powers of another Secretary of State.

The hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) said that he would like to see these matters debated more widely in the House. As the hon. Gentleman knows, in the time-honoured litany of junior Ministers at the Dispatch Box, matters concerning the arrangement of future business of the House are not for me. We shall, however, note what the hon. Gentleman said.

My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay has clearly put a great deal of thought into his amendment No. 12, but we believe that placing requirements upon the commissioner in preparing his annual report is both unreasonable and unsafe. For example, to set down in a public document risk assessments by the director-general or anyone else connected with the service would be most unhelpful to the security of the nation.

Mr. Allason

Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr, Patten

I will, but my hon. Friend had some time to deploy his arguments earlier and I was trying to reply to his points.

Mr. Allason

My hon. Friend has suggested that it would be unsafe to supply this information to the Prime Minister or to the Home Secretary. He will recall that in this context I mentioned clause 4(7), which states: If it appears to the Prime Minister, after consultation with the Commissioner, that the publication of any matter in a report would be prejudicial to the continued discharge of the functions of the Service, the Prime Minister may exclude that matter". All that I am suggesting is that these reports be supplied to the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary, which is surely helpful to them.

Mr. Patten

Of course, the supply of that information is necessary to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and, where and when necessary, to the Prime Minister. My hon. Friend has only to look at what he has presumably drafted in amendment No. 12 to see that its import is to prepare matters of this kind for some future publication. I do not accept that that is desirable. Much of the material that the commissioner will be obliged to include in some report, prepared presumably for publication but then subject to security deletions, is not within his functions to acquire, nor would it be right for him to do so. Other material goes right to the heart of Security Service operations, and I do not believe that it could be published. I differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay on that point.

The aim of this group of amendments is to try to allow Parliament to know more about the Security Service and how it works. As was pointed out by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on Second Reading and by me during the winding up speech on that occasion, it is essential to our philosophy that the proper concerns of the public and of Parliament—they are extremely important—should be met by placing functions and safeguards, and a complaints procedure, on a statutory basis while ensuring that the secrets which are at the heart of our security can and should continue to be kept.

On those grounds, I hope that the amendments will not be pressed.

Amendment negatived.

10.15 pm

Amendment proposed: No. 93, in page 2, line 9, at end add— '(5) The Director-General shall make an annual report to Parliament'.—[Mr. Cryer.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 123, Noes 209.

Division No. 34] [8.58 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane Crowther, Stan
Adams, Allen (Paisley N) Cryer, Bob
Aitken, Jonathan Cummings, John
Armstrong, Hilary Darling, Alistair
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Dewar, Donald
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) Dixon, Don
Barron, Kevin Doran, Frank
Beith, A. J. Douglas, Dick
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Dunnachie, Jimmy
Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) Eadie, Alexander
Bermingham, Gerald Eastham, Ken
Blair, Tony Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)
Blunkett, David Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)
Boateng, Paul Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)
Boyes, Roland Flynn, Paul
Bradley, Keith Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Bray, Dr Jeremy Foster, Derek
Brown, Gordon (D'mline E) Foulkes, George
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith) Fyfe, Maria
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Galbraith, Sam
Buchan, Norman Galloway, George
Buckley, George J. George, Bruce
Callaghan, Jim Godman, Dr Norman A.
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) Golding, Mrs Llin
Campbell-Savours, D. N. Gordon, Mildred
Carlile, Alex (Mont'g) Graham, Thomas
Cartwright, John Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann Grocott, Bruce
Cohen, Harry Hardy, Peter
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) Haynes, Frank
Cook, Robin (Livingston) Heffer, Eric S.
Corbett, Robin Hinchliffe, David
Corbyn, Jeremy Home Robertson, John
Cousins, Jim Hood, Jimmy
Cox, Tom Howells, Geraint
Hughes, John (Coventry NE) Morley, Elliott
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Mullin, Chris
Hughes, Simon (Southwark) Nellist, Dave
Illsley, Eric Patchett, Terry
Ingram, Adam Pike, Peter L
Johnston, Sir Russell Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Jones, leuan (Ynys Môn) Randall, Stuart
Kennedy, Charles Reid, Dr John
Kirkwood, Archy Richardson, Jo
Lambie, David Robertson, George
Leadbitter, Ted Rogers, Allan
Lewis, Terry Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Livsey, Richard Sheerman, Barry
Lofthouse, Geoffrey Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Loyden, Eddie Short, Clare
McAllion, John Skinner, Dennis
McAvoy, Thomas Steel, Rt Hon David
McCartney, Ian Strang, Gavin
Macdonald, Calum A. Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
McFall, John Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) Turner, Dennis
McKelvey, William Vaz, Keith
McLeish, Henry Wall, Pat
Maclennan, Robert Walley, Joan
McWilliam, John Warden, Gareth (Gower)
Madden, Max Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)
Mahon, Mrs Alice Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)
Marek, Dr John Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) Wilson, Brian
Martlew, Eric Wise, Mrs Audrey
Maxton, John Worthington, Tony
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun Tellers for the Ayes:
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) Mr. David Winnick and
Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) Mr. Nigel Spearing.
Morgan, Rhodri
NOES
Alexander, Richard Emery, Sir Peter
Allason, Rupert Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)
Arbuthnot, James Evennett, David
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Favell, Tony
Ashby, David Fenner, Dame Peggy
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Bevan, David Gilroy Fishburn, John Dudley
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter Fookes, Dame Janet
Boswell, Tim Forman, Nigel
Bowis, John Forth, Eric
Brandon-Bravo, Martin Franks, Cecil
Brown, Michael (Brigg & CI't's) Freeman, Roger
Browne, John (Winchester) French, Douglas
Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) Fry, Peter
Burns, Simon Gale, Roger
Butcher, John Garel-Jones, Tristan
Butler, Chris Gill, Christopher
Butterfill, John Glyn, Dr Alan
Carlisle, John, (Luton N) Goodhart, Sir Philip
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Goodlad, Alastair
Carrington, Matthew Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Cash, William Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Chapman, Sydney Gow, Ian
Chope, Christopher Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Churchill, Mr Gregory, Conal
Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n) Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Colvin, Michael Grist, Ian
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) Ground, Patrick
Coombs, Simon (Swindon) Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Cope, Rt Hon John Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom)
Couchman, James Hampson, Dr Keith
Cran, James Hanley, Jeremy
Currie, Mrs Edwina Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')
Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)
Davis, David (Boothferry) Harris, David
Devlin, Tim Hayes, Jerry
Dicks, Terry Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney
Dorrell, Stephen Hay ward, Robert
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Heathcoat-Amory, David
Dover, Den Heddle, John
Dunn, Bob Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)
Durant, Tony Hill, James
Hind, Kenneth Rattan, Keith
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Holt, Richard Redwood, John
Howard, Michael Riddick, Graham
Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)
Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) Roe, Mrs Marion
Hunt, David (Wirral W) Ross, William (Londonderry E)
Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Rost, Peter
Hunter, Andrew Rowe, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas Rumbold, Mrs Angela
Irving, Charles Ryder, Richard
Jack, Michael Sayeed, Jonathan
Jackson, Robert Scott, Nicholas
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey Shaw, David (Dover)
Jones, Robert B (Herts W) Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Shelton, Sir William
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine (Streatham)
King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Kirkhope, Timothy Shersby, Michael
Knapman, Roger Sims, Roger
Knight, Greg (Derby North) Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) Soames, Hon Nicholas
Knowles, Michael Speller, Tony
Lang, Ian Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Latham, Michael Squire, Robin
Lee, John (Pendle) Stanbrook, Ivor
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Lightbown, David Steen, Anthony
Lilley, Peter Stern, Michael
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Stevens, Lewis
Lord, Michael Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)
Macfarlane, Sir Neil Stradling Thomas, Sir John
MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire) Sumberg, David
Maclean, David Summerson, Hugo
McLoughlin, Patrick Taylor, Ian (Esher)
McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Malins, Humfrey Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Mans, Keith Temple-Morris, Peter
Maples, John Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)
Marland, Paul Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Thornton, Malcolm
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) Thurnham, Peter
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Townend, John (Bridlington)
Meyer, Sir Anthony Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Mills, Iain Tracey, Richard
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) Tredinnick, David
Mitchell, Sir David Trippier, David
Monro, Sir Hector Trotter, Neville
Morris, M (N'hampton S) Twinn. Dr Ian
Moss, Malcolm Waddington, Rt Hon David
Moynihan, Hon Colin Waldegrave, Hon William
Neale, Gerrard Walker, Bill (Tside North)
Nelson, Anthony Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Neubert, Michael Warren, Kenneth
Nicholls, Patrick Watts, John
Nicholson, David (Taunton) Wells, Bowen
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) Wheeler, John
Norris, Steve Whitney, Ray
Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley Widdecombe, Ann
Oppenheim, Phillip Wilkinson, John
Page, Richard Wilshire, David
Paice, James Winterton, Mrs Ann
Patnick, Irvine Winterton, Nicholas
Patten, John (Oxford W) Wood, Timothy
Pawsey, James Yeo, Tim
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Young, Sir George (Acton)
Porter, David (Waveney)
Portillo, Michael Tellers for the Noes:
Powell, William (Corby) Mr. Tom Sackville and
Price, Sir David Mr. Michael Fallon.
Division No. 35] [10.15 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)
Adams, Allen (Paisley N) Bermingham, Gerald
Aitken, Jonathan Blair, Tony
Allason, Rupert Boateng, Paul
Alton, David Bradley, Keith
Armstrong, Hilary Bray, Dr Jeremy
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)
Barron, Kevin Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Battle, John Buchan, Norman
Beith, A. J. Buckley, George J.
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell-Savours, D. N. Macdonald, Calum A.
Carlile, Alex (Mont'g) McFall, John
Cartwright, John McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)
Cohen, Harry McLeish, Henry
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) Maclennan, Robert
Cook, Robin (Livingston) McWilliam, John
Corbyn, Jeremy Madden, Max
Cousins, Jim Mahon, Mrs Alice
Cox, Tom Mallon, Seamus
Crowther, Stan Marek, Dr John
Darling, Alistair Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l) Martlew, Eric
Dewar, Donald Maxton, John
Dixon, Don Meale, Alan
Doran, Frank Michael, Alun
Douglas, Dick Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Dunnachie, Jimmy Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth Morgan, Rhodri
Eadie, Alexander Morley, Elliott
Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) Mowlam, Marjorie
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) Mullin, Chris
Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n) Nellist, Dave
Flynn, Paul Patchett, Terry
Foster, Derek Pike, Peter L.
Fyfe, Maria Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Galbraith, Sam Randall, Stuart
George, Bruce Robertson, George
Godman, Dr Norman A. Ruddock, Joan
Golding, Mrs Llin Sheerman, Barry
Gordon, Mildred Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Hardy, Peter Short, Clare
Haynes, Frank Skinner, Dennis
Hinchliffe, David Spearing, Nigel
Home Robertson, John Steel, Rt Hon David
Hood, Jimmy Strang, Gavin
Howells, Geraint Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Hughes, John (Coventry NE) Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Wall, Pat
Hughes, Simon (Southwark) Walley, Joan
Illsley, Eric Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Ingram, Adam Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)
Johnston, Sir Russell Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)
Jones, leuan (Ynys Môn) Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) Winnick, David
Kennedy, Charles Wise, Mrs Audrey
Kirkwood, Archy Worthington, Tony
Lambie, David Wray, Jimmy
Leadbitter, Ted
Lewis, Terry Tellers for the Ayes:
Livsey, Richard Mr. Bob Cryer and
McAvoy, Thomas Mr. Tony Banks.
McCartney, Ian
NOES
Alexander, Richard Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F rest)
Arbuthnol, James Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Ashby, David Cope, Rt Hon John
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) Couchman, James
Beggs, Roy Cran, James
Be van, David Gilroy Currie, Mrs Edwina
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)
Boswell, Tim Davis, David (Boothferry)
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwlch) Devlin, Tim
Bowis, John Dicks, Terry
Brandon-Bravo, Martin Dorrell, Stephen
Brazier, Julian Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's) Dover, Den
Browne, John (Winchester) Durant, Tony
Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) Evennett, David
Burns, Simon Fallon, Michael
Butcher, John Favell, Tony
Butler, Chris Fenner, Dame Peggy
Butterfill, John Fishburn, John Dudley
Carlisle, John, (Luton N) Fookes, Dame Janet
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Forman, Nigel
Carrington, Matthew Forth, Eric
Cash, William Franks, Cecil
Chapman, Sydney Freeman, Roger
Chope, Christopher French, Douglas
Churchill, Mr Fry, Peter
Gale, Roger Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Garel-Jones, Tristan King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)
Gill, Christopher King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Glyn, Dr Alan Kirkhope, Timothy
Goodhart, Sir Philip Knapman, Roger
Goodlad, Alastair Knight, Greg (Derby North)
Gorman, Mrs Teresa Knowles, Michael
Gow, Ian Lang, Ian
Gower, Sir Raymond Latham, Michael
Greenway, John (Ryedalo) Lee, John (Pendle)
Gregory, Conal Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) Lightbown, David
Grist, Ian Lilley, Peter
Ground, Patrick Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn Lord, Michael
Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) Macfarlane, Sir Neil
Hanley, Jeremy MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)
Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') Maclean, David
Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) McLoughlin, Patrick
Harris, David McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael
Hayes, Jerry Mans, Keith
Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney Marland, Paul
Hayward, Robert Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Heathcoat-Amory, David Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) Mellor, David
Hill, James Meyer, Sir Anthony
Hind, Kenneth Mills, Iain
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Holt, Richard Mitchell, Sir David
Hordern, Sir Peter Molyneaux, Rt Hon James
Howard, Michael Monro, Sir Hector
Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) Morris, M (N'hampton S)
Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) Moss, Malcolm
Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) Neale, Gerrard
Hunt, David (Wirral W) Nelson, Anthony
Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Neubert, Michael
Hunter, Andrew Nicholls, Patrick
Jack, Michael Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Jackson, Robert Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey Norris, Steve
Jones, Robert B (Herts W) Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Oppenheim, Phillip
Page, Richard Summerson, Hugo
Paice, James Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Patten, John (Oxford W) Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Pawsey, James Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Temple-Morris, Peter
Porter, David (Waveney) Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)
Portillo, Michael Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Powell, William (Corby) Thornton, Malcolm
Price, Sir David Thurnham, Peter
Raff an, Keith Townend, John (Bridlington)
Raison, Rt Hon Timothy Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Redwood, John Tracey, Richard
Riddick, Graham Tredinnick, David
Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) Trippier, David
Roe, Mrs Marion Trotter, Neville
Ross, William (Londonderry E) Twinn, Dr Ian
Rost, Peter Waddington, Rt Hon David
Rowe, Andrew Wakeham, Rt Hon John
Ryder, Richard Waldegrave, Hon William
Sayeed, Jonathan Walker, Bill (T'side North)
Shaw, David (Dover) Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') Warren, Kenneth
Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) Watts, John
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Wells, Bowen
Shersby, Michael Wheeler, John
Sims, Roger Whitney, Ray
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Widdecombe, Ann
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) Wilkinson, John
Soames, Hon Nicholas Wilshire, David
Speller, Tony Winterton, Mrs Ann
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) Winterton, Nicholas
Squire, Robin Wood, Timothy
Stanbrook, Ivor Yeo, Tim
Steen, Anthony Young, Sir George (Acton)
Stern, Michael
Stevens, Lewis Tellers for the Noes:
Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) Mr. Tom Sackville and
Stradling Thomas, Sir John Mr. John M. Taylor.
Sumberg, David

Question accordingly negatived.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

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