CONSUMERS' COMMITTEES

HC Deb 06 April 1989 vol 150 cc422-30

Mr. Barron

I beg to move amendment No. 121, in page 2, line 23, after "shall", insert seek to ensure that the committee is representative of local consumer interests and geographical areas and shall".

Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd)

With this it will be convenient to take amendment No. 114, in page 2, line 25, at end insert The Scottish Committees shall include a representative of each island and regional authority.".

Mr. Barron

We had quite a lengthy debate in Committee on this matter, and this is a further attempt to ensure that the members of the consumer committees are really representative of the interests of local consumers. During the debate in Committee, the Minister showed a lack of understanding of exactly what concerns people who represent the interests of consumers. I quoted to him a brief that had been given, as I understand it, to all hon. Members by the Consumers Association, a respected body which has worked for many years promoting the interests and rights of consumers. It commented directly on the wording and on the likely operation of the clause: We do not agree with the 'desirability of appointing a person who has experience of, and has shown capacity in, matters relevant to the provision of electrical services"' that is the wording that we, too, should like to change with this amendment— Part 1 Clause 2 Subsection 4. This is a recipe for ensuring that the committees are 'captured' by the industries they are meant to be supervising. Opposition Members, having been through the Bill in Committee, have little confidence that the vested interests of the electricity supply industry will be removed by clause 2 if it is left unamended.

Indeed, in Committee the Minister said: we see the committees not like such bodies in the past, which have stood on the touchline of the regulatory process, but as an integrated part of that process with well-defined roles." —[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 12 January 1989; c. 122.] 9.30 pm

We believe that, in a general sense, the committees may be far too integrated if their members do not directly represent consumer interests. Consumer interests are not necessarily the interests of the electricity supply industry. We are anxious, therefore, that the committees should not be dominated by the industry's needs or the regulator's demands. Regulations and consumer advocacy are not the same and we must ensure that the committees are vigorously independent. We tried throughout to get financial independence for these committees so that they would have their own offices in the different areas. On each occasion we failed and were not backed by the Minister. So we return to say to him that we are unhappy with the make-up of the consumer committees. What he asks for in the clause is not necessarily in the interest of the consumer.

We hope that the Minister has taken the opportunity in the few short weeks since we left clause 2 in Committee to look in greater detail at the issue. I look forward to hearing what he has to say. This looks a bit wider than the earlier debate and we hope that the Bill will be amended so that it, too, will be a bit wider than what we have in front of us.

Mr. Wallace

Amendment No. 114 is in my name and the names of my hon. Friends. In many respects, albeit in a Scottish context, it seeks to do much the same as the amendment moved by the hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron).

The composition of the proposed committees requires the director to have regard to people who have experience of the provision of electricity supply services. This seems to be a very odd requirement considering that the committees, one assumes, are to represent the interests of consumers. While some passing knowledge is obviously required, many consumers do not have the first idea how their electricity supply gets to them but have far more than a passing interest in having a regular, secure supply. These are the people whose interests the consumers' committees should be protecting.

If one looks at the responsibility and functions of consumers' committees, one finds, in clause 47, that they have, among other responsibilities, a duty to keep under review matters affecting the interests of consumers of electricity supplied to premises in the committee's areas. My constituency is in the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board area. It is a vast area and my constituency is itself quite vast, with particular problems that apply to islands areas. For a start, Shetland is not connected to the national grid. Its main electricity supply comes from a diesel-generated power station in Lerwick. It has in places such as Fair Isle a unique form of supply which is dependent on wind power—and all credit to the hydro-electric board that it has set this up. But there are very particular problems relating to an area with particular needs.

Our reasonable request is that people from each geographical area— we have defined that in terms of local authority areas, because that is a neat way of doing it—should be on the consumers' committees. It is only people from specific areas who have first-hand experience of circumstances and conditions in different parts of the country and who know what the needs of these areas are.

These are very modest proposals and if the Government accepted the amendments it would show that they are genuinely interested in the rights and interests of the consumers. I do not see that there is anything fundamental at stake with regard to the overall strategy of the Bill. By conceding the amendments they would prove that they have the interests of consumers at heart and I hope that the Minister will give us a positive response.

Mr. Hardy

I shall be brief. I want to say a word or two in criticism of the "one of us" syndrome which is far too prevalent today in British political life. I am not at all happy about many of the appointments made by the Government. I recall not very long ago pursuing a regional aid case in my constituency. It was referred to the Department of Trade and Industry's advisory committee which found against my constituency proposal. Then I discovered that a significant proportion of the people involved had no connection with my region. I had to advise some constituents in fair rent cases not to appeal because I discovered that a rent tribunal was excessively representative of families of estate agents and solicitors, most of whom may well have been politically sensitive and acceptable to Treasury Ministers.

We have seen the proliferation of Government sympathisers in the health authorities and a tremendous decline in the number of appointments of people who do not share the ideology that is currently fashionable in the Government. I am not restricting my criticism to matters that affect only Opposition Members because some matters would not be acceptable to those who control the destiny of this nation.

We need to have an assurance from Ministers that the principal qualifications of those required to serve on consumer committees is not just the knowledge of what one does with an electric light switch, possession of a Conservative party card and adherence to the currently popular fashion in the Conservative party. I hope that the interests of the consumer will be well served and that they will receive priority over the interests of the political party in power.

Mr. Haynes

I remember the debate in Committee on this matter and on that occasion we were not at all satisfied. That is why we have come back to the issue. We are looking for satisfaction in this debate. The Government brag that the Bill is in the interests of the consumer. If that is the case, why does not the Minister cough up? We are asking him straightforwardly for proper representation for the consumer on these bodies. [Interruption.] I wish that he would not speak to his Parliamentary Private Secretary while I am trying to make an important point. If the Minister's ears were a bit larger, he might hear what was being said.

We are looking for fairness for the consumer. We do not want the committees loaded with Tories. We want fairness across the board. The Minister must not load the committees with Tory mouthpieces, but that will happen if we are not careful. I hope that he takes on board what is being said and especially what I am saying. I shall probably have more to say later during the evening or the morning, but I want the Minister to understand quite clearly that I am speaking on behalf of the people that I represent. They want a fair crack of the whip for the consumer. I hope that the Minister will come across and give us what we are looking for because he did not do that upstairs.

Mr. John Maxton (Glasgow, Cathcart)

It is necessary to say a word or two about the Scottish consultative committees and the consumer committees that will be established by the Bill. As the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) has said, there is a marginally different situation in the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board. That board and the new company will have a geographical area that is larger in terms of length but not in terms of population than from the north of England to Land's End. It will extend from Campbeltown in the south, which is almost, but not quite, the most southerly point in Scotland—some people might say that it is almost in Northern Ireland—right up to the most northerly house connected to the electricity supply in Unst, in Shetland.

That is an enormous geographical spread and places on the Government a responsibility, which so far they have not met, to ensure that that geographical distance is properly represented on the committee. The two amendments make some effort to achieve that. Any committee will have a difficult job to do better than the present North of Scotland Consultative Council, which I believe is the best of the councils at advising us about the needs of its area. The briefings from that council have been first-class.

The new consumers' committees must properly represent an area's consumers. The committee members should not be appointed as a result of their political interests or because of any connections with the electricity supply industry. In Scotland we have the advantage because the Government are rapidly running out of Tories to put on those committees in Scotland. The Government are trying desperately, but there are not many Tories left there and the few that are left are easily recognisable. We have no great problem in saying that such and such is a political appointment because that person is a Tory. In fact, there is a joke about the man in a paper hat who is the only Tory left in Scotland.

The consumers' committees in Scotland must represent the consumers. I would prefer it if there were legal constraints on the consumers' committees under the director to ensure that local committees are appointed in each of the areas covered by the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board to ensure local representation.

Even if the committees have proper representation, the committee members will have problems meeting regularly. It will be extremely difficult for anyone appointed to the committees to travel from Campbeltown to Perth or Inverness or from Unst to Inverness. The Minister must assure us that there will be no political appointments to the committees and that people will not be appointed because they have connections with the electricity supply industry. The committee members should be genuine consumers who know more about an area and its problems than about electricity supply. I hope that the Minister will respond to my points.

Mr. Michael Spicer

Clause 2 provides for consumers' committees to be attached to each public electricity supplier in the United Kingdom. That will ensure that the regional dimension, as set out in the amendments is achieved. In response to the hon. Members for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) and for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton), I can state that that includes the north of Scotland dimension which will have its own consumers' committee.

We are not in favour of providing for special pre-defined interest groups, regional or otherwise. In future, we want to see the appointment of people who, if possible, know something about the electricity industry, and that is defined in clause 2(4). That answers points raised by the hon. Members for Cathcart, for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes) and for Wentworth (Mr. Hardy). The members of the committee will be appointed by the director.

I cannot promise that there will be no Conservatives on the committees. There are so many Conservatives these days and there will be more and more in Scotland. The director will have a very large catchment area to choose from and I am sure that there will be many Conservatives on those committees. However, I assure the House that the appointments will be made by the independent director and not by the Government. That is a major new feature of the Bill and I am happy to give that assurance. We have placed the whole process more at arm's length from the Government. [Interruption.] I can see that many Opposition Members would like to intervene. Let us have a little fun; I will give way to the hon. Member for Ashfield.

Mr. Haynes

I resent that remark. The Minister is trying to be funny. He will regret that. I warn the Minister now: he should not be clever.

I want to know whether the Minister or the Department will have any influence on the director, as to who serves on the committees. If one looks at other such bodies, one finds that the Government always have their grubby hands on appointments.

9.45 pm

Mr. Spicer

I happily give the hon. Gentleman a precise answer to his fair question. Committee chairmen will be appointed with the consent of the Secretary of State, but committee members will be appointed by the directors. The general membership of the committees will be independently appointed. I am pleased to give the House that assurance. The hon. Members for Wentworth and for Cathcart made an important point that the Government completely concede, which is that appointments to the committees should be made more independent and further removed from the Government. We agree completely, and that is why we are changing the Bill.

Mr. Wallace

The Minister responded to the points made by myself and the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) by saying that at least the North of Scotland board will have a committee attached to it. Will he confirm that as the Bill stands, the membership of the committee, comprising between 10 and 20 persons, could all come from Glasgow—outwith the area served by the board? Far from different parts of a vast area being represented, it is theoretically possible that not one geographical area under the board's control will be represented.

Mr. Spicer

No doubt that is theoretically possible. We are saying not that we want specialist groups predetermined, but that the sort of people who will represent consumer interests should be a matter for the director within the terms of the Bill. If there is such a difference between the characteristics of areas as the hon. Gentleman suggests, it would make sense, in providing proper consumer representation, to take geographical interests into account. However, we do not want to make that a statutory obligation. Somebody must appoint the members of the committee.

Mr. Wallace

The Minister means that the Government wish to abdicate responsibility.

Mr. Spicer

That is the way that the hon. Gentleman chooses to put it, but I suggest that he has a word with the hon. Members for Wentworth and for Cathcart. Although they represent different parties, they made a strong point. In response, I gave an assurance that there will not be political involvement in appointments, but that they will be the responsibility of the independent director. I believe that that meets the general view of the House that such an arrangement is a good thing.

The reason why, in future, consumers' committees will be an integral part of the regulatory process is clear, and it is one about which we feel strongly. I say in response to the hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron) that one of the radical reforms introduced in the Bill is that there will no longer be merely lobbying organisations shouting their views from outside the industry—on a previous occasion, I used the phrase "from the touchline"—which is largely how the existing consumer committees operate. Under the new arrangements, they will be part of the regulatory body.

In that way, we are enormously strengthening the effectiveness of consumer representatives' involvement in the industry's development. I remind the House that the Electricity Consumers Council thoroughly approves of that new arrangement. It is a radical and great improvement in the involvement of consumer representatives in the affairs of a large industry. I hope that the House welcomes the new structure and accepts the points that I have made. Therefore, I hope that the amendment is withdrawn.

Mr. Barron

The amendment cannot and will not be withdrawn. The Minister continues to fall into the trap that he fell into in Committee. He regards regulation and consumerism as the same thing. That is not the case. I have put not only my arguments but those of consumer organisations which, for many decades, have attempted to represent consumers' interests. They say that the proposed structure of the consumers' committees is not necessarily right. It was said in Committee—I will not say that the Minister said it—that anybody who receives electricity is an electricity consumer. I argued that the chairman of an electricity board receives electricity and is an electricity consumer. But his idea of electricity and the consumption of electricity is different from that of his neighbour up the road who also receives electricity, uses it as a domestic consumer, and pays a quarterly bill. He has a different outlook on the electricity industry.

Mr. Michael Spicer

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that he at least accepts that the Electricity Consumers Council has thoroughly approved the new arrangements?

Mr. Barron

Independent consumer bodies are not in a position to be the turkeys who vote for Christmas. Opposition Members would sooner listen to the people who, week in and week out, month in and month out, and year in and year out, have represented people who wanted help and have found the electricity supply industry lacking. We will debate that matter when we talk about fuel poverty. Those people have encountered the problems of consumers within the electricity supply industry. Opposition Members are not happy with the situation.

Once again, as he did in Committee, the Minister has dismissed the issue and said that those who are involved in regulation are therefore involved in the interests of consumers. I am pleased that the hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Tredinnick) is present. After he made his 20-minute speech, I said that I would refer to him later. Because of his presence on this occasion, I will put the amendment to the vote to see whether hon. Members are in favour of consumers' rights.

Question put, That the amendment be made:

The House divided: Ayes 71, Noes 174.

Division No. 144]	[9.52 pm
AYES
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)	Hughes, John (Coventry NE)
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)	Illsley, Eric
Barron, Kevin	Johnston, Sir Russell
Beith, A. J.	Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Môn)
Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)	Kennedy, Charles
Bermingham, Gerald	Livsey, Richard
Blair, Tony	Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)	McAllion, John
Buckley, George J.	McAvoy, Thomas
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)	Macdonald, Calum A.
Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)	McFall, John
Cohen, Harry	McLeish, Henry
Cox, Tom	Maxton, John
Cryer, Bob	Meale, Alan
Dalyell, Tam	Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)
Dewar, Donald	Molyneaux, Rt Hon James
Dixon, Don	Morgan, Rhodri
Doran, Frank	Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)
Dunnachie, Jimmy	Pike, Peter L.
Eadie, Alexander	Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Evans, John (St Helens N)	Prescott, John
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)	Radice, Giles
Fearn, Ronald	Richardson, Jo
Foster, Derek	Robertson, George
Foulkes, George	Skinner, Dennis
Fyfe, Maria	Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Galbraith, Sam	Soley, Clive
Garrett, John (Norwich South)	Spearing, Nigel
Golding, Mrs Llin	Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)	Wallace, James
Hardy, Peter	Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)
Haynes, Frank	Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)
Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)	Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)
Home Robertson, John
Hood, Jimmy	Tellers for the Ayes:
Howells, Geraint	Mr. Robert N. Wareing and Mr. Allen McKay.
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Hoyle, Doug

NOES
Adley, Robert	Amos, Alan
Aitken, Jonathan	Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Amess, David	Ashby, David

Atkinson, David	Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)	Lang, Ian
Baldry, Tony	Lawrence, Ivan
Batiste, Spencer	Lee, John (Pendle)
Benyon, W.	Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)
Blackburn, Dr John G.	Lilley, Peter
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter	Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Boswell, Tim	Lord, Michael
Bottomley, Peter	Lyell, Sir Nicholas
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia	Macfarlane, Sir Neil
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)	Maclean, David
Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard	Malins, Humfrey
Brazier, Julian	Mans, Keith
Bright, Graham	Maples, John
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter	Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)	Maude, Hon Francis
Browne, John (Winchester)	Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Buck, Sir Antony	Meyer, Sir Anthony
Burns, Simon	Miller, Sir Hal
Burt, Alistair	Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Butterfill, John	Mitchell, Sir David
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)	Morris, M (N'hampton S)
Carrington, Matthew	Morrison, Sir Charles
Carttiss, Michael	Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester)
Cash, William	Moss, Malcolm
Chapman, Sydney	Mudd, David
Chope, Christopher	Neale, Gerrard
Conway, Derek	Needham, Richard
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)	Neubert, Michael
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)	Nicholls, Patrick
Cope, Rt Hon John	Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Cran, James	Norris, Steve
Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)	Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley
Davis, David (Boothferry)	Oppenheim, Phillip
Day, Stephen	Paice, James
Dorrell, Stephen	Patnick, Irvine
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James	Patten, Chris (Bath)
Dover, Den	Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Durant, Tony	Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Dykes, Hugh	Porter, David (Waveney)
Fallon, Michael	Rathbone, Tim
Favell, Tony	Redwood, John
Fenner, Dame Peggy	Riddick, Graham
Fishburn, John Dudley	Ridsdale, Sir Julian
Fookes, Dame Janet	Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm
Forman, Nigel	Roe, Mrs Marion
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)	Rost, Peter
Fox, Sir Marcus	Rumbold, Mrs Angela
Franks, Cecil	Ryder, Richard
Freeman, Roger	Sainsbury, Hon Tim
Gale, Roger	Shaw, David (Dover)
Garel-Jones, Tristan	Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Gill, Christopher	Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Goodhart, Sir Philip	Shelton, Sir William
Goodlad, Alastair	Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles	Shersby, Michael
Gow, Ian	Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)	Soames, Hon Nicholas
Gregory, Conal	Speller, Tony
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)	Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)
Grist, Ian	Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn	Squire, Robin
Hague, William	Stern, Michael
Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom)	Stevens, Lewis
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)	Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)
Hanley, Jeremy	Stradling Thomas, Sir John
Harris, David	Summerson, Hugo
Heathcoat-Amory, David	Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)	Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)	Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)	Temple-Morris, Peter
Hunt, David (Wirral W)	Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)
Hunter, Andrew	Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Irvine, Michael	Thurnham, Peter
Jack, Michael	Tredinnick, David
King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)	Trippier, David
Kirkhope, Timothy	Trotter, Neville
Knapman, Roger	Twinn, Dr Ian
Knight, Greg (Derby North)	Waddington, Rt Hon David
Knowles, Michael	Waller, Gary

Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)	Wilshire, David
Warren, Kenneth	Wood, Timothy
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen	Tellers for the Noes:
Widdecombe, Ann	Mr. David Lightbown and Mr. Tom Sackville.
Wilkinson, John

Question accordingly negatived.

It being after Ten o'clock, further consideration of the Bill, as amended, stood adjourned.

Ordered, That, at this day's sitting, the Electricity Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. John M. Taylor.]

As amended (in the Standing Committee), again considered.