§ Lords amendments again considered.
§ Question again proposed, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.
§ Mr. BoatengIt is like the scene in "The Devil's Triangle" in which the sea captain throws a lifejacket to a drowning man as the sharks begin to circle and at the same time throws in a bucket or two or offal. Nothing is more certain to attract the speculative sharks infesting the landlord and tenant sea than the smell of blood. This legislation has given them the smell of blood. We seek to substitute a raft for the lifejacket. That is all that we seek to do, but we commend it to the House.
§ Mr. SoleyMy hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng) has adequately explained the problem. I shall not delay the House long, as we need to vote on this important matter.
The Government have based the legislation on the belief that they could revive the rented sector. To try to protect themselves from the charge of Rachmanism, which has given them so many problems in the past, they claim to have put in strong safeguards against harassment. We argued throughout the Committee stage that that was not so and we believe that we have proved the point.
Here, I pray in aid one whom I would not normally wish to have on my side—Mr. Hoogstraten, who, in the famous "World in Action" programme, said that he 401 regarded the Bill as a step in the right direction. When I wrote to the then Minister pointing that out, he replied that he did not think that Mr. Hoogstraten understood the Bill. I believe that Mr. Hoogstraten understands the Bill very well, and I assure the House that his solicitors understand it perfectly. As a result of this legislation, they will be able to get evictions far more easily than ever before. With an assured tenancy, all they have to do is to tell the tenant that they intend to carry out major works. They can then get an eviction just like that—no court case, nothing.
The Minister intervened on my point about legal aid. Some Conservative Members believe that the relationship between landlord and tenant should be a simple legal relationship and that, if either side feels that the other is not acting according to the contract, they should go to law. My point to the Minister was that legal aid would not be available in all such cases, particularly in view of the impending changes, and that in many cases the person would not even get to a solicitor in the first place. The Government do not begin to understand how serious that is, nor how varied are the practices involved.
I cite just one example—a constituent of mine who describes himself as well placed to look after himself, well educated, and so on. In that instance, the absentee landlord deliberately failed to pay the mortgage, thus inciting the mortgage company to foreclosure and eviction. The landlords sent messages to the mortgage company indicating that they knew that the bailiffs would be calling and did not intend to oppose any eviction—all the while concealing the fact that there was a protected tenant in occupation of the premises.
My constituent states:
It was only by luck that I was at home when the mortgage company's agent arrived which allowed me and my solicitor to negotiate a way out of this situation by informing the mortgage company that I was in situ.That man was paying a rent of about £480 a month, he was represented by a solicitor and he was well able to speak for himself. Despite that, he was advised that it was becoming increasingly common for a landlord deliberately to foreclose on a mortgage and set up an illegal eviction by keeping quiet about the existence of a tenant. Once that luckless tenant is out on the street, the landlord steps forward and pays the mortgage arrears to the mortgage company, thereby re-establishing himself with full control over the premises, having successfully short-circuited all protection given by the law to the tenant.If the Government were genuinely concerned about dealing with eviction, they would give local authorities, tenancy relations officers, law centres or some other group in society the power to act on behalf of individuals. They have not done so. Indeed, they are taking away those powers and there will be an increase in the number of evictions. The majority of landlords are very good and have good relationships with their tenants, but there is a large minority of bad landlords. The Government have the cheek to criticise some local authorities that may be bad managers, but they never seem to worry about the Hoogstratens and Rachmans of the world. That is a damaging indictment.
It is a fact of life that such people exist and we know that those who will be most at risk are generally the disadvantaged—those least able to speak for themselves or 402 to put their case to a lawyer. We urge the Government, even at this late stage, to accept what we believe their Lordships intended, which was to tighten the law relating to the Rachmans and Hoogstratens. I believe that eventually the Government will have to go even further, because if they do not, in years to come there will be hideous stories of abuse by individual landlords against tenants who cannot stand up to them in a court of law because they will have neither the resources nor the ability to do so. That is the problem, and that is why we shall vote against the Government.
§ Mr. SpeakerI shall put the Question on Lords amendment No. 20.
§ Mr. SoleyOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understood that the Government were intending to reject the amendments. We certainly wish to vote against Lords amendments Nos. 22, 23 and 24.
§ Mr. SpeakerI have received no such indication.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Lords amendments Nos. 21, 22 and 23 agreed to.
§
Lords amendment: No. 24, in page 19, line 34, at end insert—
and for the purposes of paragraph (a) above, proceedings to enforce a liability are finally disposed of on the earliest date by which the proceedings (including any proceedings on or in consequence of an appeal) have been determined and any time for appealing or further appealing has expired, except that if any appeal is abandoned, the proceedings shall be taken to be disposed of on the date of the abandonment
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.—[Mr. Trippier.]
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 237, Noes 188.
405| Division No. 481] | [10.8 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adley, Robert | Burt, Alistair |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Butcher, John |
| Alexander, Richard | Butler, Chris |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Butterfill, John |
| Allason, Rupert | Carlisle, John, (Luton N) |
| Amos, Alan | Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) |
| Arbuthnot, James | Carrington, Matthew |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Carttiss, Michael |
| Ashby, David | Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Colvin, Michael |
| Atkins, Robert | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Couchman, James |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Cran, James |
| Baldry, Tony | Currie, Mrs Edwina |
| Batiste, Spencer | Davis, David (Boothferry) |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Bellingham, Henry | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Bendall, Vivian | Durant, Tony |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Body, Sir Richard | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Boswell, Tim | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Bottomley, Peter | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n) | Goodhart, Sir Philip |
| Bowis, John | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes | Gow, Ian |
| Brazier, Julian | Gower, Sir Raymond |
| Bright, Graham | Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW) |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Gregory, Conal |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's) | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) |
| Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) | Grist, Ian |
| Budgen, Nicholas | Ground, Patrick |
| Burns, Simon | Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Moss, Malcolm |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Hannam, John | Needham, Richard |
| Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') | Nelson, Anthony |
| Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) | Neubert, Michael |
| Harris, David | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney | Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) |
| Hayward, Robert | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Heddle, John | Page, Richard |
| Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) | Paice, James |
| Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE) | Patnick, Irvine |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Hill, James | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Hind, Kenneth | Pawsey, James |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Holt, Richard | Porter, Barry (Wirral S) |
| Hordern, Sir Peter | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Howard, Michael | Portillo, Michael |
| Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) | Price, Sir David |
| Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Raffan, Keith |
| Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) | Renton, Tim |
| Hunt, David (Wirral W) | Riddick, Graham |
| Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Hunter, Andrew | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Irvine, Michael | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Irving, Charles | Rossi, Sir Hugh |
| Jack, Michael | Rost, Peter |
| Jackson, Robert | Rowe, Andrew |
| Janman, Tim | Rumbold, Mrs Angela |
| Jessel, Toby | Sackville, Hon Tom |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Jones, Robert B (Herts W) | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Key, Robert | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Kilfedder, James | Shersby, Michael |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) | Sims, Roger |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Knapman, Roger | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Knowles, Michael | Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) |
| Latham, Michael | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Squire, Robin |
| Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) | Stanley, Rt Hon John |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Steen, Anthony |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Stevens, Lewis |
| Lilley, Peter | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) | Stokes, Sir John |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Stradling Thomas, Sir John |
| Lord, Michael | Sumberg, David |
| Luce, Rt Hon Richard | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
| Lyell, Sir Nicholas | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire) | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Maclean, David | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Madel, David | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Malins, Humfrey | Thurnham, Peter |
| Mans, Keith | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Maples, John | Trippier, David |
| Marland, Paul | Trotter, Neville |
| Marlow, Tony | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Viggers, Peter |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Walden, George |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Waller, Gary |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Ward, John |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Mills, Iain | Warren, Kenneth |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Watts, John |
| Mitchell, David (Hants NW) | Wells, Bowen |
| Moate, Roger | Wheeler, John |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Whitney, Ray |
| Morris, M (N'hampton S) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Wiggin, Jerry | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Winterton, Mrs Ann | |
| Winterton, Nicholas | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Wood, Timothy | Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory |
| Woodcock, Mike | and Mr. Michael Fallon. |
| Yeo, Tim |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Garrett, John (Norwich South) |
| Alton, David | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Anderson, Donald | Gordon, Mildred |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Gould, Bryan |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Grocott, Bruce |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Hardy, Peter |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy |
| Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich) | Haynes, Frank |
| Barron, Kevin | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Battle, John | Hinchliffe, David |
| Beckett, Margaret | Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) |
| Bell, Stuart | Holland, Stuart |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Home Robertson, John |
| Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Howells, Geraint |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Hoyle, Doug |
| Blunkett, David | Hughes, John (Coventry NE) |
| Boateng, Paul | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Bradley, Keith | Hughes, Roy (Newport E) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) |
| Brown, Gordon (D'mline E) | Hughes, Simon (Southwark) |
| Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) | Illsley, Eric |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | John, Brynmor |
| Buchan, Norman | Johnston, Sir Russell |
| Buckley, George J. | Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) |
| Caborn, Richard | Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) |
| Callaghan, Jim | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Kennedy, Charles |
| Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley) | Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Lamond, James |
| Clay, Bob | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Clelland, David | Leighton, Ron |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Lestor, Joan (Eccles) |
| Cohen, Harry | Lewis, Terry |
| Coleman, Donald | Litherland, Robert |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Livingstone, Ken |
| Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Livsey, Richard |
| Corbett, Robin | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Cox, Tom | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Crowther, Stan | Loyden, Eddie |
| Cryer, Bob | McCartney, Ian |
| Cummings, John | McLeish, Henry |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Maclennan, Robert |
| Cunningham, Dr John | McNamara, Kevin |
| Dalyell, Tam | Madden, Max |
| Darling, Alistair | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Marek, Dr John |
| Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'I) | Meale, Alan |
| Dewar, Donald | Michael, Alun |
| Dixon, Don | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
| Dobson, Frank | Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) |
| Doran, Frank | Moonie, Dr Lewis |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) | Morley, Elliott |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) |
| Fatchett, Derek | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Mowlam, Marjorie |
| Fearn, Ronald | Mullin, Chris |
| Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | Murphy, Paul |
| Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n) | Nellist, Dave |
| Fisher, Mark | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Flannery, Martin | O'Neill, Martin |
| Flynn, Paul | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Parry, Robert |
| Foster, Derek | Patchett, Terry |
| Foulkes, George | Pike, Peter L. |
| Fraser, John | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Fyfe, Maria | Prescott, John |
| Primarolo, Dawn | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Quin, Ms Joyce | Stott, Roger |
| Radice, Giles | Straw, Jack |
| Randall, Stuart | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Redmond, Martin | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Richardson, Jo | Turner, Dennis |
| Roberts, Allan (Bootle) | Vaz, Keith |
| Robertson, George | Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N) |
| Rogers, Allan | Wall, Pat |
| Rooker, Jeff | Wallace, James |
| Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) | Walley, Joan |
| Rowlands, Ted | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Ruddock, Joan | Wareing, Robert N. |
| Sedgemore, Brian | Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N) |
| Sheerman, Barry | Williams, Rt Hon Alan |
| Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then) |
| Shore, Rt Hon Peter | Wilson, Brian |
| Short, Clare | Winnick, David |
| Skinner, Dennis | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury) | |
| Snape, Peter | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Soley, Clive | Mrs. Llin Golding and |
| Spearing, Nigel | Mr. Ken Eastham. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Mr.Nicholas Bennett (Pembroke)On a point of order, Mr.Speaker. Can you confirm that the decision on the procedure that you adopted immediately before the last vote was exactly the same as that adopted at 9.51 pm last night before Division No. 478?
Mr.SpeakerI was not present at 9.57 last night. There was some slight confusion, but I think that we got it right in the end.
§ Lords amendments Nos. 25 to 33 agreed to.