§
Ordered,
That, at this day's sitting, the Lords Amendments to the Health and Medicines Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Fallon.]
§ Lords amendments again considered.
§ Question again proposed.
§ Mr. MellorWhen the bell intervened, Mr. Speaker, I was saying that my hon. Friend had quoted his article in the Evening Standard which, no doubt, has remunerated him well enough to enable him to pay for his next check-up —[HON. MEMBERS: "Disgraceful."]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman may make his point if the Minister gives way.
§ Mr. MellorI am teasing my hon. Friend—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. MellorI purchased a copy of the Evening Standard to read my hon. Friend's article. The figure that my hon. Friend gives of 2,600 oral cancer cases includes cancer of the throat which is not detected by dentists. It is cancer of the mouth cavity that accounts for 1,500 cases—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I sense that we are coming to the end of this important debate.
§ Mr. MellorLater in his article, my hon. Friend states that "a mere £140 million" is what is at stake tonight. That does not—
§ Mr. MellorNo, I cannot give way now.
That does not seem a fair basis on which to decide how to cast one's vote in this debate because £140 million is a large amount of money in Health Service terms—
§ Mr. MellorMy hon. Friend—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Is it a point of order?
§ Mr. HayesWith respect to my hon. and learned Friend, he suggested that I profited from the article— [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. That is not a point of order for me.
§ Mr. MellorOf course, if it will make my hon. Friend feel any better about it, I will withdraw any such suggestion. I should like to deal with what he actually said—
§ Mr. Martin Flannery (Sheffield, Hillsborough)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Why do you not make the Minister withdraw that comment?
§ Mr. SpeakerBecause I am not responsible for what is said, provided that it is in order. It may have been in bad taste, but it was in order.
§ Mr. MellorMy hon. Friend wrote:
The cost of retaining the free dental and sight check is a mere £140 million".No hon. Member should vote tonight under any illusion, because £140 million is a great deal of money in NHS terms. I advise my hon. Friend that the total cost of all the medical services offered by the district health authority which contains his constituency amounted last year to £41.7 million. That buys an awful lot of treatment.We shall be concerned later tonight with the treatment of eye disease. I attended the opening, by Her Majesty the Queen, of the brand new, rebuilt Moorfields eye hospital 916 last week. That cost £15 million, only one tenth of the mere £140 million of which my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow spoke. We want to reduce the number of patients on the waiting lists. For £25 million last year, we did over 100,000 more in-patient operations—[Interruption.] —and we shall do more than that next time. I wish that Opposition Members would be quiet for just a few minutes—[Interruption.]—and I shall finish a great deal sooner. It comes down to a judgment whether, in this day and age, when the man on average wages is 30 per cent. better off than he was 10 years ago, we think that £3.15 once or twice a year will be a major disincentive to people to go to the dentist when over 20 million people will be exempted from these charges.
When my right hon. and learned Friend took over the Department, it was open to him to say that he thought that these charges were misconceived. He and I looked at the matter and concluded that what we want to do for the Health Service lies in far more vital areas than preserving an increasingly archaic rule in a world where 60 per cent. of the population is well able to make that payment.
I urge my hon. Friends to bear in mind when they go into the Lobby tonight that the only consequence of the Government failing to carry this measure would be our having to come back with proposals that they would find more unpalatable. It is hardly possible to think of any less damaging way of raising money to make our Health Service even better than to introduce these charges.
This is a great day for the National Health Service, when over £2 billion of extra resources have been won for the service. It will be an even better day for the service if the decision made in the House of Lords is reversed tonight and I therefore urge the House to reverse that decision.
§ Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 300, Noes 284.
920| Division No. 462] | [10.07 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adley, Robert | Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Bowis, John |
| Alexander, Richard | Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Brandon-Bravo, Martin |
| Allason, Rupert | Brazier, Julian |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Bright, Graham |
| Amess, David | Brittan, Rt Hon Leon |
| Amos, Alan | Brooke, Rt Hon Peter |
| Arbuthnot, James | Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's) |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Browne, John (Winchester) |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) |
| Ashby, David | Budgen, Nicholas |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Burns, Simon |
| Atkins, Robert | Burt, Alistair |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Butcher, John |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Butler, Chris |
| Baldry, Tony | Butterfill, John |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Carlisle, John, (Luton N) |
| Batiste, Spencer | Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) |
| Bellingham, Henry | Carrington, Matthew |
| Bendall, Vivian | Cash, William |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda |
| Benyon, W. | Channon, Rt Hon Paul |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Chope, Christopher |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n) |
| Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) |
| Body, Sir Richard | Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Conway, Derek |
| Boswell, Tim | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) |
| Bottomley, Peter | Cope, Rt Hon John |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Couchman, James |
| Cran, James | Jones, Robert B (Herts W) |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine |
| Curry, David | Key, Robert |
| Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) | King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Devlin, Tim | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Knapman, Roger |
| Dicks, Terry | Knight, Greg (Derby North) |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Knowles, Michael |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Lamont, Rt Hon Norman |
| Dunn, Bob | Lang, Ian |
| Durant, Tony | Latham, Michael |
| Dykes, Hugh | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Eggar, Tim | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) | Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) |
| Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Fallon, Michael | Lightbown, David |
| Favell, Tony | Lilley, Peter |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey | Lord, Michael |
| Fishburn, John Dudley | Luce, Rt Hon Richard |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Lyell, Sir Nicholas |
| Forman, Nigel | Macfarlane, Sir Neil |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Forth, Eric | MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire) |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Maclean, David |
| Fox, Sir Marcus | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Franks, Cecil | McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael |
| Freeman, Roger | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) |
| French, Douglas | Major, Rt Hon John |
| Gale, Roger | Malins, Humfrey |
| Gardiner, George | Mans, Keith |
| Gill, Christopher | Maples, John |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Marland, Paul |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Marlow, Tony |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Gorst, John | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Gow, Ian | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW) | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Mellor, David |
| Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E') | Miller, Sir Hal |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Grist, Ian | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Ground, Patrick | Mitchell, David (Hants NW) |
| Grylls, Michael | Moate, Roger |
| Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom) | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Moore, Rt Hon John |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Morris, M (N'hampton S) |
| Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') | Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester) |
| Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn) | Moss, Malcolm |
| Harris, David | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Hayward, Robert | Neale, Gerrard |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Needham, Richard |
| Heddle, John | Nelson, Anthony |
| Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) | Newton, Rt Hon Tony |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Hill, James | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Hind, Kenneth | Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley |
| Hordern, Sir Peter | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Howard, Michael | Page, Richard |
| Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) | Paice, James |
| Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) | Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil |
| Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Patnick, Irvine |
| Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) | Patten, Chris (Bath) |
| Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Hunt, David (Wirral W) | Pawsey, James |
| Hunter, Andrew | Porter, Barry (Wirral S) |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Irvine, Michael | Portillo, Michael |
| Jack, Michael | Price, Sir David |
| Jackson, Robert | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Janman, Tim | Rathbone, Tim |
| Jessel, Toby | Redwood, John |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Renton, Tim |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Rhodes James, Robert |
| Riddick, Graham | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Ridsdale, Sir Julian | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Roe, Mrs Marion | Thorne, Neil |
| Rost, Peter | Thurnham, Peter |
| Rumbold, Mrs Angela | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Ryder, Richard | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Sackville, Hon Tom | Tracey, Richard |
| Sainsbury, Hon Tim | Tredinnick, David |
| Sayeed, Jonathan | Trippier, David |
| Scott, Nicholas | Trotter, Neville |
| Shaw, David (Dover) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) | Viggers, Peter |
| Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) | Walden, George |
| Shersby, Michael | Walker, Bill (T'side North) |
| Skeet, Sir Trevor | Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester) |
| Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) | Ward, John |
| Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Soames, Hon Nicholas | Warren, Kenneth |
| Speed, Keith | Watts, John |
| Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) | Wheeler, John |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Whitney, Ray |
| Squire, Robin | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Stanley, Rt Hon John | Wilkinson, John |
| Steen, Anthony | Wilshire, David |
| Stern, Michael | Wolfson, Mark |
| Stevens, Lewis | Wood, Timothy |
| Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) | Yeo, Tim |
| Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Stewart, Ian (Hertfordshire N) | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Sumberg, David | |
| Summerson, Hugo | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Tapsell, Sir Peter | Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones and |
| Taylor, John M (Solihull) | Mr. Michael Neubert. |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley) |
| Allen, Graham | Campbell-Savours, D. N. |
| Alton, David | Canavan, Dennis |
| Anderson, Donald | Carlile, Alex (Mont'g) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Carttiss, Michael |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Cartwright, John |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Churchill, Mr |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Clark, Dr David (S Shields) |
| Ashton, Joe | Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) |
| Atkinson, David | Clay, Bob |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Clelland, David |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Clwyd, Mrs Ann |
| Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich) | Cohen, Harry |
| Barron, Kevin | Colvin, Michael |
| Battle, John | Cook, Frank (Stockton N) |
| Beckett, Margaret | Cook, Robin (Livingston) |
| Beggs, Roy | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
| Beith, A. J. | Corbett, Robin |
| Bell, Stuart | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Cousins, Jim |
| Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) | Crowther, Stan |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Cryer, Bob |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Cummings, John |
| Blair, Tony | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Blunkett, David | Cunningham, Dr John |
| Boateng, Paul | Darling, Alistair |
| Boyes, Roland | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Bradley, Keith | Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l) |
| Brown, Gordon (D'mline E) | Day, Stephen |
| Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) | Dewar, Donald |
| Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith) | Dixon, Don |
| Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) | Dobson, Frank |
| Buchan, Norman | Doran, Frank |
| Buckley, George J. | Douglas, Dick |
| Caborn, Richard | Dover, Den |
| Callaghan, Jim | Duffy, A. E. P. |
| Dunnachie, Jimmy | Hood, Jimmy |
| Eastham, Ken | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
| Evans, John (St Helens N) | Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) |
| Evennett, David | Howells, Geraint |
| Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) | Hoyle, Doug |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) | Hughes, John (Coventry NE) |
| Fatchett, Derek | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Hughes, Roy (Newport E) |
| Fearn, Ronald | Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) |
| Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | Hughes, Simon (Southwark) |
| Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n) | Hume, John |
| Fisher, Mark | Illsley, Eric |
| Flannery, Martin | Janner, Greville |
| Flynn, Paul | John, Brynmor |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Johnston, Sir Russell |
| Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S) | Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) |
| Foster, Derek | Jones, leuan (Ynys Mön) |
| Foulkes, George | Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) |
| Fraser, John | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Fry, Peter | Kennedy, Charles |
| Fyfe, Maria | Kilfedder, James |
| Galbraith, Sam | Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil |
| Galloway, George | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Garrett, John (Norwich South) | Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) |
| Garrett, Ted (Wallsend) | Knox, David |
| George, Bruce | Lambie, David |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Godman, Dr Norman A. | Leighton, Ron |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Lestor, Joan (Eccles) |
| Gordon, Mildred | Lewis, Terry |
| Gould, Bryan | Litherland, Robert |
| Graham, Thomas | Livingstone, Ken |
| Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) | Livsey, Richard |
| Gregory, Conal | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Loyden, Eddie |
| Grocott, Bruce | McAllion, John |
| Hardy, Peter | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | McCartney, Ian |
| Haselhurst, Alan | McCrea, Rev William |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | McCusker, Harold |
| Hawkins, Christopher | Macdonald, Calum A. |
| Hayes, Jerry | McFall, John |
| Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney | McGrady, Eddie |
| Haynes, Frank | McKelvey, William |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | McLeish, Henry |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Maclennan, Robert |
| Henderson, Doug | McNamara, Kevin |
| Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | McTaggart, Bob |
| Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE) | McWilliam, John |
| Hinchliffe, David | Madden, Max |
| Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Madel, David |
| Holland, Stuart | Maginnis, Ken |
| Home Robertson, John | Mahon, Mrs Alice |
| Mallon, Seamus | Rooker, Jeff |
| Marek, Dr John | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Ross, William (Londonderry E) |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Ruddock, Joan |
| Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) | Salmond, Alex |
| Martlew, Eric | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Maxton, John | Sheerman, Barry |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Meacher, Michael | Short, Clare |
| Meale, Alan | Skinner, Dennis |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Michael, Alun | Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury) |
| Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Smith, Sir Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) | Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S) |
| Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) | Snape, Peter |
| Molyneaux, Rt Hon James | Soley, Clive |
| Moonie, Dr Lewis | Spearing, Nigel |
| Morgan, Rhodri | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Morley, Elliott | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) | Stott, Roger |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Strang, Gavin |
| Morrison, Sir Charles | Straw, Jack |
| Mowlam, Marjorie | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Mudd, David | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Mullin, Chris | Thomas, Dr Dafydd Elis |
| Murphy, Paul | Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck) |
| Nellist, Dave | Turner, Dennis |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| O'Brien, William | Vaz, Keith |
| O'Neill, Martin | Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N) |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Wall, Pat |
| Owen, Rt Hon Dr David | Wallace, James |
| Parry, Robert | Waller, Gary |
| Patchett, Terry | Walley, Joan |
| Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Wareing, Robert N. |
| Pendry, Tom | Welsh, Andrew (Angus E) |
| Pike, Peter L. | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Powell, Ray (Ogmore) | Williams, Rt Hon Alan |
| Prescott, John | Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then) |
| Primarolo, Dawn | Wilson, Brian |
| Quin, Ms Joyce | Winnick, David |
| Radice, Giles | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Randall, Stuart | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Redmond, Martin | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Reid, Dr John | Worthington, Tony |
| Richardson, Jo | Wray, Jimmy |
| Roberts, Allan (Bootle) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Robertson, George | |
| Robinson, Geoffrey | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) | Mr. Allen McKay and |
| Rogers, Allan | Mr. Adam Ingram. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.