Firearms (Amendment) Bill (Hansard, 23 May 1988)

HC Deb 23 May 1988 vol 134 cc80-170 80

§ Order for consideration, as amended (in the Standing Committee), read.

7.25 pm

§ Mr. Speaker
I have selected the recommittal motion in the name of the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin). I remind the House that it is subject to the provisions of Standing Order No. 72, by which the proposer of the motion may speak for 10 minutes with a similar limit for the reply.

§ Mr. Jerry Wiggin (Weston-super-Mare)
I beg to move, That the Bill be recommitted to the former committee.
I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for selecting this motion in somewhat unusual circumstances and I appreciate that you will be operating under the usual ten-minute Bill procedure.
It is reasonable to ask why the Government brought the Bill before the House for consideration in the first place. Of course, we all understand that after the disastrous events at Hungerford there was an instant lobby that demanded that the Government do something. However, I have to tell the House that if that something is this Bill, the events at Hungerford could still have taken place because there is no legislation that can legislate against a madman. A madman can kill with whatever weapon he chooses.
There is nothing in the Bill that will reduce crime. The Government are quite wrong in simply wishing to reduce the number of firearms by seeking out a section of the community for no good reason. Self-loading rifles and pump-action shotguns are the main objects of the legislation. The interesting thing about rifles is that they are scarcely ever used in crime. In 1976, the last year for which figures are available, in nearly 10,000 crimes involving firearms, about half were with air weapons and only 53 were with rifles—0.6 per cent. The police acknowledge that pump-action shotguns are the least useful weapon to take if one is bent on criminal assault. They are least useful because they are bulky, heavy and difficult to saw off.
I sympathise with the Government's wish to increase the security of weapons and to understand more about the ownership and disposition of weapons. However, that could have been done by administrative procedure. Instead, we have this Bill which was hastily drawn up, written in a few minutes and written very badly. Before the Committee stage, the proposal was that a cardboard tube, which I produced in Committee, was an item that would from thenceforth require a firearms certificate because it was a mortar. The advisers to the Home Office had forgotten about fireworks. That is one example of many.
I shall come to the substantive part of my argument in moving the motion. There are no fewer than 36 groups of amendments on the Order Paper.

§ Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop (Tiverton)
Groups.

§ Mr. Wiggin
Yes, as my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) said, there are 36 groups. By anybody's interpretation, the Bill is being rewritten and 81 that will happen unless the House votes for my motion. Surely it is not right to rewrite a Bill on Report; that should be done in Committee.
My most important reason for seeking the support of the House was last week's inclusion, for the first time in all the months that we have been debating the Bill, of Northern Ireland. It cannot be constitutionally right for a Bill to pass Second Reading and Committee without including Northern Ireland and then, at the eleventh hour, to be changed to include it. As we constantly debate the unity of the United Kingdom, that was a grave error by the Government, and it is another good reason to send the Bill back to Committee.
We believe that my hon. Friend the Minister gave us several commitments that the Government are refusing to honour. The exclusion of self-loading rifles with integral magazines was given in all but name. My hon. Friend used weasel words, but he has now gone back on that commitment.
The one thing in the Bill that those of us who are interested in the subject believed was a step forward was the statutory committee to advise the Government so that we should not get into this sort of mess again. The lack of expertise in firearms in the Home Office is only too apparent. On Friday morning the Government tabled a series of amendments to neuter that statutory committee and make it a puppet of the Home Secretary—and effectively useless.
I see no reason to take the full 10 minutes that you have kindly allowed me, Mr. Speaker. My final and most overpowering argument is that if the House votes for this motion everyone should be having their dinners in their homes before 8 pm. If it does not, 36 groups of amendments will have to be gone over carefully. It is just conceivable that in the early hours of the morning some of my hon. Friends may turn a little critical. If they want a night's sleep, I hope that they will support the motion.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Douglas Hogg)
My hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin) played his best card last. The only thing in favour of the motion is that it would give us an early night. I cannot commend it on any other ground. Much as I should enjoy serving on another Committee with my hon. Friend to examine this Bill, I do not think the facts justify my asking the House to give me that indulgence.
It is perfectly true that there is a substantial number of amendments on Report, but there is nothing unusual about that. I have always made it plain that the Government would respond to reasonable criticisms, and that is what we have done. With the exception of the amendments related to Northern Ireland, all the substantive amendments reflect exhaustive debate in Committee. Indeed, in most cases they reflect the Committee's conclusions.
The main changes can be summarised as follows. First, we are leaving three-shot self-loading shotguns in clause 2. That matter was extensively canvassed in Committee and in making that concession we responded to the Committee's wish. The second major change relates to the deactivation and conversion of guns, which was also extensively debated in Committee, and these amendments respond to what was said.
82 Although our movements on compensation do not feature on Report in the form of Government amendments, they were widely debated and are, I think, broadly welcomed by hon. Members.
Other major changes relating to museums were also debated a great deal in Committee, and, without exception, the amendments that we are bringing forward today respond to what hon. Members who served on the Committee wanted us to do.
As for Northern Ireland, most of the powers that have been taken by way of order either accord with existing practice or are of minor impact.
What we have done with the consultative committee is to put in proper form that will be acceptable to the House the intent of my hon. Friends and Opposition Members. We tidied up the provisions about the nomination of its members and provided clear guidance on its remit. We have honoured the intent of hon. Members on the Committee in every respect.
My hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare has always been candid; he is instinctively opposed to firearms control and believes that this is a bad Bill. He is entitled to those views, although I disagree with both. But the motion that he so lucidly and briefly introduced was more a reflection of his hostility to the concept of firearms control and to the Bill than of his desire to spend another few months in Committee with me. I do not criticise him for that—he is entitled to his views—but hon. Members listening to the debate need to be clear about the reasons that lie behind the motion.

§ Question put:—

§ The House divided: Ayes 206, Noes 254.

Division No 318]	[7.36 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane	Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Adams, Allen (Paisley N)	Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Allen, Graham	Clay. Bob
Anderson, Donald	Clelland, David
Archer, Rt Hon Peter	Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Armstrong, Hilary	Cohen, Harry
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack	Coleman, Donald
Ashton, Joe	Colvin, Michael
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)	Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)	Corbett, Robin
Barron, Kevin	Cousins, Jim
Battle, John	Cryer, Bob
Beckett, Margaret	Cummings, John
Bell, Stuart	Cunliffe, Lawrence
Bellingham, Henry	Cunningham, Dr John
Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)	Dalyell, Tam
Benyon, W.	Darling, Alistair
Bidwell, Sydney	Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Blair, Tony	Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)
Boateng, Paul	Dewar, Donald
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas	Dixon, Don
Boyes, Roland	Dobson, Frank
Bradley, Keith	Douglas, Dick
Bray, Dr Jeremy	Dunnachie, Jimmy
Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)	Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)	Eadie, Alexander
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)	Eastham, Ken
Buchan, Norman	Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)
Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon Alick	Fatchett, Derek
Buck, Sir Antony	Faulds, Andrew
Buckley, George J.	Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Caborn, Richard	Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Callaghan, Jim	Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)	Fisher, Mark
Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)	Flannery, Martin
Campbell-Savours, D. N.	Flynn, Paul
Canavan, Dennis	Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Cartwright, John	Foster, Derek

Foulkes, George	Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Galbraith, Sam	Moonie, Dr Lewis
George, Bruce	Morgan, Rhodri
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John	Morley, Elliott
Godman, Dr Norman A.	Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Golding, Mrs Llin	Mullin, Chris
Gordon, Mildred	Murphy, Paul
Gould, Bryan	Nellist, Dave
Graham, Thomas	Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)	O'Neill, Martin
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)	Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)	Patchett, Terry
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)	Pike, Peter L.
Grocott, Bruce	Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Grylls, Michael	Prescott, John
Hardy, Peter	Quin, Ms Joyce
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy	Radice, Giles
Haynes, Frank	Randall, Stuart
Healey, Rt Hon Denis	Reid, Dr John
Heffer, Eric S.	Richardson, Jo
Henderson, Doug	Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)	Robertson, George
Holland, Stuart	Robinson, Geoffrey
Holt, Richard	Rogers, Allan
Home Robertson, John	Rooker, Jeff
Hood, Jimmy	Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)	Ross, William (Londonderry E)
Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)	Rost, Peter
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)	Rowlands, Ted
Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)	Ruddock, Joan
Illsley, Eric	Sheerman, Barry
Ingram, Adam	Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
John, Brynmor	Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)	Short, Clare
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)	Skinner, Dennis
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine	Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Kennedy, Charles	Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)
Lambie, David	Snape, Peter
Leadbitter, Ted	Soley, Clive
Leighton, Ron	Spearing, Nigel
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)	Steel, Rt Hon David
Lewis, Terry	Steinberg, Gerry
Litherland, Robert	Stott, Roger
Livsey, Richard	Straw, Jack
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)	Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Loyden, Eddie	Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
McAllion, John	Thomas, Dr Dafydd Elis
McAvoy, Thomas	Turner, Dennis
Macdonald, Calum A.	Vaz, Keith
McFall, John	Walker, Bill (T'side North)
McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)	Wall, Pat
McKelvey, William	Wallace, James
McLeish, Henry	Walley, Joan
McNamara, Kevin	Warden, Gareth (Gower)
McTaggart, Bob	Wareing, Robert N.
McWilliam, John	Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)
Madden, Max	Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)
Marek, Dr John	Wiggin, Jerry
Marland, Paul	Williams, Rt Hon Alan
Marshall, David (Shettleston)	Wilson, Brian
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)	Winnick, David
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)	Worthington, Tony
Martlew, Eric	Young, David (Bolton SE)
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Meale, Alan	Tellers for the Ayes:
Michael, Alun	Sir Hector Monro and
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)	Mr. Robert Hicks.

NOES
Alexander, Richard	Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)
Allason, Rupert	Baldry, Tony
Amess, David	Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Amos, Alan	Batiste, Spencer
Arbuthnot, James	Beaumont-Dark, Anthony
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)	Bendall, Vivian
Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove)	Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Ashby, David	Bevan, David Gilroy
Aspinwall, Jack	Biffen, Rt Hon John
Atkinson, David	Blackburn, Dr John G.
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)	Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Boswell, Tim	Hill, James
Bottomley, Peter	Hind, Kenneth
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia	Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n)	Howard, Michael
Bowis, John	Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)
Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard	Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Brandon-Bravo, Martin	Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)
Brazier, Julian	Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)	Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
Browne, John (Winchester)	Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)	Irvine, Michael
Burns, Simon	Jack, Michael
Burt, Alistair	Jackson, Robert
Butcher, John	Janman, Tim
Butler, Chris	Jessel, Toby
Butterfill, John	Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)	Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Carrington, Matthew	Jones, Robert B (Herts W)
Carttiss, Michael	King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)
Cash, William	Kirkhope, Timothy
Channon, Rt Hon Paul	Knight, Greg (Derby North)
Chapman, Sydney	Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n)	Knowles, Michael
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)	Knox, David
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)	Lang, Ian
Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)	Latham, Michael
Conway, Derek	Lawrence, Ivan
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)	Lee, John (Pendle)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)	Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)
Cope, John	Lightbown, David
Cormack, Patrick	Lilley, Peter
Couchman, James	Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)
Cran, James	Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Critchley, Julian	Lord, Michael
Currie, Mrs Edwina	Lyell, Sir Nicholas
Curry, David	McCrindle, Robert
Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)	MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)
Davis, David (Boothferry)	Maclean, David
Day, Stephen	McLoughlin, Patrick
Dicks, Terry	McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James	McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)
Dunn, Bob	Madel, David
Durant, Tony	Malins, Humfrey
Emery, Sir Peter	Mans, Keith
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)	Maples, John
Evennett, David	Marlow, Tony
Fallon, Michael	Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Farr, Sir John	Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Favell, Tony	Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Fenner, Dame Peggy	Mates, Michael
Fookes, Miss Janet	Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Forman, Nigel	Miller, Hal
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)	Mills, lain
Forth, Eric	Miscampbell, Norman
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman	Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Fox, Sir Marcus	Mitchell, David (Hants NW)
Franks, Cecil	Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Freeman, Roger	Moore, Rt Hon John
French, Douglas	Morris, M (N'hampton S)
Gale, Roger	Morrison, Hon Sir Charles
Gardiner, George	Moss, Malcolm
Garel-Jones, Tristan	Mudd, David
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles	Neale, Gerrard
Gorman, Mrs Teresa	Nelson, Anthony
Gorst, John	Neubert, Michael
Gow, Ian	Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Gower, Sir Raymond	Nicholls, Patrick
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)	Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)	Oppenheim, Phillip
Grist, Ian	Page, Richard
Ground, Patrick	Paice, James
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)	Patnick, Irvine
Hanley, Jeremy	Patten, Chris (Bath)
Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)	Patten, John (Oxford W)
Harris, David	Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Haselhurst, Alan	Porter, David (Waveney)
Hawkins, Christopher	Portillo, Michael
Hayward, Robert	Powell, William (Corby)
Heathcoat-Amory, David	Price, Sir David
Heddle, John	Raffan, Keith

Raison, Rt Hon Timothy	Stokes, John
Redwood, John	Stradling Thomas, Sir John
Renton, Tim	Sumberg, David
Rhodes James, Robert	Summerson, Hugo
Riddick, Graham	Tapsell, Sir Peter
Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas	Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Ridsdale, Sir Julian	Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)	Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Roe, Mrs Marion	Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)
Rossi, Sir Hugh	Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Rowe, Andrew	Thorne, Neil
Ryder, Richard	Thurnham, Peter
Sackville, Hon Tom	Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Sainsbury, Hon Tim	Tracey, Richard
Sayeed, Jonathan	Trippier, David
Scott, Nicholas	Trotter, Neville
Shaw, David (Dover)	Twinn, Dr Ian
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)	Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')	Walden, George
Shelton, William (Streatham)	Walters, Dennis
Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)	Ward, John
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)	Watts, John
Sims, Roger	Wheeler, John
Skeet, Sir Trevor	Widdecombe, Ann
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)	Wilkinson, John
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)	Wilshire, David
Soames, Hon Nicholas	Winterton, Mrs Ann
Speed, Keith	Winterton, Nicholas
Speller, Tony	Wolfson, Mark
Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)	Wood, Timothy
Squire, Robin	Woodcock, Mike
Stanbrook, Ivor	Yeo, Tim
Stanley, Rt Hon John	Young, Sir George (Acton)
Steen, Anthony	Younger, Rt Hon George
Stern, Michael
Stevens, Lewis	Tellers for the Noes:
Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)	Mr. Robert Boscawen and
Stewart, Ian (Hertfordshire N)	Mr. Stephen Dorrell.

§ Question accordingly negatived.

§ Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

§ Mr. William Ross (Londonderry, East)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that, in moving his motion, the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin) referred to Northern Ireland. May I point out that in Committee I was prevented from discussing the effect that the Bill would have on Northern Ireland because there was no reference to it in the Bill? The House should be aware of that. What guidance can the House be given about whether Northern Ireland may be fully discussed?

§ Mr. Speaker
The matter has been resolved by the House and we must now proceed. If the hon. Gentleman catches the eye of the occupant of the Chair, he will be able to deploy his case then.