§ Lords amendment: No. 234, in page 87, line 51, at end insert—
§ "13A.—(1) Regulations under this Schedule may include provision that no duty of confidentiality shall prevent the Secretary of State from disclosing relevant information to a registration officer for a charging authority.
§ (2) Information is relevant information if—
- (a) it was obtained by the Secretary of State in exercising his functions 1986 c. 50, under the Social Security Act 1986,
- (b) the Secretary of State believes it would be useful to the registration officer in exercising his functions under this Parliament, and
- (c) it falls within a prescribed description."
§ Read a Second time.
§ Madam Deputy SpeakerWith this it will be convenient to take amendment (a) and Lords amendments Nos. 235 to 237, 246, 249, 253 to 255, 257, 259, 260, 261 and 265.
§ Mr. Harry Cohen (Leyton)I beg to move, as an amendment to the Lords amendment, amendment (a), at end insert—
'(3) Where the relevant information is personal data as defined by the Data Protection Act 1984, any interpretation of the meaning of the first data protection principle, or any restriction in the exercising of the powers of the data protection registrar in relation to any of the data protection 1172 principles shall not apply, and any disclosure of personal data shall not be subject to the non-disclosure provisions of the Act.'.It would be helpful perhaps to explain what Lords amendment No. 234 is about. It means thatno duty of confidentiality shall prevent the Secretary of State from disclosing relevant information to a registration officerfor the collection of the poll tax. Then it describes the relevant information. If it is obtained by the Secretary of State under the Social Security Act 1986 for social security purposes it can be passed to the poll tax registrar. If the Secretary of State believes that such information would be useful for the collection of the poll tax, or even if it falls within the prescribed description and was previously not allowed to be passed on, the Secretary of State can do so. That means that he can pass that information to the poll tax registrar.The amendment gives the Secretary of State remarkable powers that are not just excessive but almost dictatorial in nature. My amendment (a) seeks to correct the situation and to bring some sense to the measure. If it is not changed, Lords amendment No. 234 would dramatically compromise three of the eight data protection principles. That compromise would be fundamental and the other principles would also be adversely affected. The first principle to be compromised is the principle that personal data shall be obtained and processed fairly and lawfully. As a guide to interpreting this principle, the data protection registrar was advised that data users should, first, explain to the person why the information was required; secondly, ensure that people are not misled about why the information is required; and, thirdly, explain why the information would be used or disclosed. Those recommendations are in the data protection registrar's guideline No. 4.
The problem is that in the public sector most personal data are deemed to be collected fairly and are often required to be collected according to some statute or other. That is often true of personal data collected by the Secretary of State for the purposes of carrying out his statutory functions. The Secretary of State need not follow the registrar's advice that I have mentioned and need not explain to a person why information is required. The worst part is that it is quite lawful for him to mislead people about why the information is required, used or disclosed. It is unacceptable for such a state of affairs to be enshrined in statute.
The possibility of duping people should never be an acceptable means of administration and it could have damaging consequences. For example, people might be afraid to come into contact with officialdom in any way, shape or form and, for that reason, might not get the rights to which they are entitled. Secondly, it could well lead to the build-up of hatred against an untrusted and untrustworthy administration. Those are the dangerous consequences of allowing people to be duped. In any case it is against the whole philosophy of the Data Protection Act 1984, which aims at fair treatment and protection for people against the misuse of information held about them. It is wrong that the Secretary of State should be able to breach that first data protection principle.
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The third data protection principle is seriously compromised. For example, section 34(5)(a) of the Data Protection Act describes the non-disclosure condition whereby personal data are disclosed by or under any 1173 enactment. Section 26(3) of the Data Protection Act says that such a disclosure is not subject to the enforcement powers of the registrar. The registrar has such powers for any other sort of disclosure but not in this respect.
The section also says:
by reference to any data protection principle inconsistent with the disclosure in question.The key word in that part of the Act is "any," because it means that all eight of the data protection principles are at risk. These non-disclosure exemptions need not be registered with the data protection registrar, so there is a reduced chance of his ever finding out about them. That is a complex aspect of the matter. In short, it means that the registrar is utterly powerless to prevent abuse and in many cases he will be ignorant of the myriad disclosures of personal data that will be required to produce the poll tax registers. The data protection registrar's important role as a quasi-ombudsman and investigator of data abuse is seriously undermined in respect of information obtained for collecting the poll tax under this Lords amendment.The final data protection principle to be abused is the fourth one—that personal data shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purposes for which the data are used.
The principle allows the data protection registrar to investigate the reason for an item of personal data being held. That is not the case for the poll tax register and the Secretary of State's powers. The Bill is littered with powers enabling the Secretary of State to make regulations about the personal data to be kept. It is the Secretary of State who will decide the items of data to be kept. Those could very well be excessive and not relevant to the purpose for which the personal data are held. That is intolerable. It drives a coach and horses through the principles underlying the Data Protection Act.
Lords amendment No. 234 provides that information is relevant information which can be disclosed for poll tax purposes even
if … it falls within a prescribed description.That is information that would otherwise not be allowed to be disclosed under the terms of the Data Protection Act. The amendment would give the Secretary of State carte blanche to decide what is to be prescribed and what is not. It also empowers him to breach the duty of confidentiality under which the information might originally have been obtained.No personal information is sacred to the Secretary of State if he wants to pass it on to the poll tax registrar, and that includes information which the Data Protection Act says shall be secret. It must be wrong for the Government to seek to enact such a blanket power. It is worth reiterating the problems about the amendment. The data protection registrar cannot exercise any of his enforcement powers in relation to disclosures by the Secretary of State. The disclosure made by the Secretary of State may not appear on the registration and is therefore hidden from the registrar and the public.
According to the clause, personal data are always deemed to be obtained fairly by the Secretary of State, however unscrupulous or immoral the means used to obtain such data. That applies even if the data subject is blatantly misled about why information on him is being collected. The registrar cannot serve an enforcement notice about the obtaining of personal data by the Secretary of State in the way that he can do for many items of information collected by other data users. He cannot act if 1174 the items of data to be collected by the Secretary of State for poll tax purposes are excessive or not relevant. He cannot prevent gross breaches of confidentiality by the Secretary of State.
As a result of the amendment the Government will be given an appalling list of powers. My amendment to amendment No. 234 solves all the problems, and the registrar will have his powers restored to safeguard an individual's privacy. My amendment ties up the relevant information with the Data Protection Act 1984, which the Government are trying to separate from the poll tax legislation. The relevant information is
personal data as defined by the Data Protection Act 1984".My amendment provides thatany interpretation of the meaning of the first data protection principle, or any restriction in the excercising of the powers of the data protection registrar in relation to any of the data protection principles shall not apply".That would restore the powers of the registrar so that he could act if there were abuses, especially in relation to the first and fourth data protection principles. My amendment also states thatany disclosure of personal data shall not be subject to the non-disclosure provisions of the Act.That restores the powers of the third data protection principle.In their haste to impose the poll tax, the Government are trampling on the privacy and data protection rights that are essential for the protection of individuals. Lords amendment No. 234 will create a secret service state, which has no bounds or restrictions. Data on everyone, however confidential or personal, are permitted if the Secretary of State wants that information. Such information may be wildly excessive for the purposes of poll tax collection. It is a draconian and expensive tax and the Government are giving themselves draconian powers to impose it. My amendment will restore sanity to this matter.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Christopher Chope)In the past half-hour we have seen the extent to which the debate on the Lords amendments has been reduced to a farce by the Opposition. The start of this debate was delayed by half an hour by two completely pointless Divisions. They are certainly pointless if the Opposition are serious about needing time to debate the issues. The first Division was on a concession that was granted pursuant to an undertaking given by my hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Local Government, and implemented in another place. The second Division was on nothing more than a drafting amendment. Now the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) has tabled amendment (a) to Lords amendment No. 234 and his amendment is obscure and defective. It does not even provide what the hon. Gentleman intends.
Effectively, the hon. Gentleman's amendment would disapply the first data protection principle of the data protection act 1984 by providing that
any interpretation of the meaning of the first data protection principle"—whatever that may mean—should not apply. The amendment would also disapply any restriction of the powers of the Data Protection Registrar, although it is not at all clear what those restrictions might be. It would also disapply the principle enshrined in the Data Protection Act 1984 that data must be fairly and lawfully disclosed. At best, the amendment is confused, and it is difficult to comment on it in detail. However, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that disclosures of community charge 1175 information for the purposes of the community charge will have to conform to the provisions of the Data Protection Act. That Act provides all the protection that is necessary in such cases and there is no need for an amendment of this nature.The first data protection principle will not be compromised, because individuals whose details are passed to the registration officer will always be told by the Department of Health and Social Security that the disclosure is taking place. The hon. Member for Leyton has got that wrong.
The third data protection principle will not be compromised. It is perfectly true that the Data Protection Act disapplies the third principle in certain circumstances, but that is a provision of that Act—it does not flow from anything in the Bill. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the DHSS will register the disclosures with the data protection Registrar. Nothing in the provision restricts the powers of the data protection registrar, and information transferred will have to be up to date, relevant and not excessive. The hon. Gentleman has got it all completely wrong.
On Report my hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Local Government announced that the Government intended to amend the Bill to allow for two things: the disclosure of information to community charge registration officers by DHSS local offices, and direct deduction from income support as a remedy where an income support recipient defaults on his community charge payments.
People receiving income support will have included in their benefit an element reflecting the fact that they will have to pay 20 per cent. of their community charge. Surely it is perfectly reasonable to ensure that they should actually register for the charge. Amendment No. 234 accordingly provides that no duty of confidentiality shall prevent the Secretary of State from passing information to the community charge registration officers.
We intend to make regulations that will prescribe the information that local offices may pass on. It will be restricted to the names and addresses of income support claimants. People who are eligible for income support are automatically entitled to an 80 per cent. rebate of their community charge. Claimants will therefore be invited to complete a rebate application form. If they do so, and if their claim for income support is allowed, the DHSS local office will send the form to the local authority, which will arrange for their rebate to be paid. In most cases this will be done through a reduction in the claimants' community charge bills.
§ Mr. William McKelvey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun)How much will that additional exercise cost?
§ Mr. ChopeIt will not cost anything like as much as it would if the money that was being paid to those in receipt of income support did not end up in the coffers of the local authorities, thus enabling them to provide services. If, however, a claimant does not wish to apply for a rebate, the DHSS local office will pass his or her name and address to the CCRO to enable him to check his register. That is a sensible measure designed to provide an extra source of 1176 information to CCROs in carrying out their statutory functions and ensuring that benefit paid for a particular purpose is actually used for that purpose.
The Lords amendment also provides that people on income support who default on their payments and get into arrears with their community charge may have sums deducted direct from their income support and paid to the local authority. That again is a sensible measure, which parallels the provision for the attachment of earnings of people who are in work. Without that provision there would be no alternative to distress or imprisonment, which would put people on income support at a disadvantage compared with those in work—[HON. MEMBERS: "Come on.''] It would. Because we are a sympathetic Government, we have provided that a local authority that has obtained a liability order may apply to have deductions made from income support and may ask the debtor to provide information about his income. Regulations will set out the circumstances and manner in which direct payments may be made, and will set a limit on the amount that may be deducted.
I do not believe that either of the two measures discriminates at all unfairly against people who are receiving income support. Everyone has a duty to register. Income support is a passport to a maximum rebate and will contain an element to reflect the remaining 20 per cent contribution. It is therefore right to seek to ensure that those receiving it are properly registered. As for direct deductions, those merely parallel the existing provisions for attachment of earnings and provide a way in which income support recipients who get into arrears may remedy the situation without the need for distress.
In case hon. Members think that there is something novel about that, let me remind the House of some of the other purposes for which deductions may be made from income support. They include housing arrears and current costs, miscellaneous accommodation costs, service charges for fuel and rent, gas arrears and current consumption, electricity arrears and current consumption, water arrears and current consumption, recovery of over-payment of benefit, including housing benefit and social fund loan repayments. All those categories are purposes for which deductions can be made directly from income support.
§ Ms. Dawn Primarolo (Bristol, South)The difference between the poll tax and the other charges that the Minister has listed is that the recipient of income support must give consent for deductions to be made for the purposes of electricity arrears, rent arrears and so on. However, the community charge arrears will be deducted compulsorily from income support. It will mean that food will be taken out of people's mouths because the Social Security Ministers have been too mean to give them the full benefit in the first place.
§ Mr. ChopeThe hon. Lady is talking nonsense. We are talking about money that has been paid by taxpayers to recipients of income support. The hon. Lady seems to be suggesting that, although that money has been paid specifically to enable people to pay their community charge, they should have the freedom to spend it on whatever they like. We cannot accept that proposition.
I hope that the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Leyton will be rejected and that the House will agree with these sensible Lords amendments.
§ Mr. RookerThat was another disgraceful performance by the Minister. He has learnt nothing since Committee and Report stages while trying to defend the indefensible.
Amendment No. 234 is a classic example of what has been happening. Earlier today we were told, "This is what was discussed earlier and it is only what you asked for." First, we did not ask for amendment No. 234, and, secondly, the transfer of information from the DHSS to poll tax officers was not discussed in Committee. It was hinted at in the media and referred to on Report. We were told that applicants for income support would be given a rebate application form and that if they did not submit it, someone would chase them up. That sounds administratively convenient for the civil servants involved, but that is not what is stated in the amendment. It provides that all information collected by the Secretary of State under the Social Security Act 1986 can be passed to poll tax registration officers. Why has it been drawn so wide?
§ Mr. David Harris (St. Ives)Why not?
§ Mr. RookerThe hon. Gentleman may not understand that one of the great prerequisites about information on the poll tax was that all national sources of information would not be available to poll tax registration officers; all local sources of information would be available. In other words, no income tax records, no health authority records, and no gas or electricity records would be available, but all local authority information of births, marriages, deaths, schools, housing, roads and rebates—the whole gamut—would fit the bill. All of a sudden, all DHSS information is to be available to poll tax officers, and we have not had a satisfactory explanation why.
§ Mr. HarrisIf the DHSS makes that money available for a specific purpose surely it has every right, and indeed a duty, to pass that information on to poll tax officers. It is as simple as that.
§ Mr. RookerWhy does that not happen today?
§ Mr. HarrisPerhaps it should.
§ Mr. RookerThe more this Bill is debated, the more we learn about what is in the minds of Conservative Members of Parliament.
§ Mr. Harrisrose——
§ Mr. RookerThe hon. Gentleman voted for the guillotine and we did not, and I have already done him the courtesy of giving way once.
Amendment No. 234 is drawn much wider than was hinted at previously. We never had any amendments along these lines, so we could not amend the proposal. We had no inkling of this until the Bill went to the Lords. The debate there was on 30 June, so only then was the Government's plan known. We have not had a satisfactory explanation.
It is interesting that recipients of social security benefit and income support are not automatically checked for attendance allowance and mobility allowance. My hon. Friends and I constantly find people, whom we are seeing in another connection, who have been dealing with the DHSS, social workers and health visitors yet who are not paid mobility or attendance allowance when they should be. Nobody has ever bothered to check. Why is there no amendment to deal with people who are not receiving 1178 sufficient money from the DHSS? There is nothing along those lines. This provision is one-sided, which is why we object so much to it.
I have another point to raise with the Minister about the DHSS and the transfer of information. The DHSS is responsible for running the census, and its Ministers are responsible for the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys. Every citizen now knows that DHSS information will go to poll tax officers, and people will be worried. I alluded to this on Second Reading. The Bill threatens the accuracy of the census, and there are many reasons why we need a census to be accurate—for example, locating schools in the right places. People will co-operate with the census only if they are absolutely certain that the information is locked into it. The DHSS runs the census and tonight it will receive new powers under amendment No. 234 to disclose information to poll tax officers.
Before the Minister or any Conservative Member jumps up and says, "That is all covered by the Official Secrets Act," I must say that I do not believe them. I do not trust the Government any longer; indeed, I do not think that I ever did. I do not trust them to conduct public administration fairly and above board.
I have a constituency interest in this. In April 1989, when the poll tax register for England will start to be assembled two years ahead of the census, a test will be carried out on 85,000 households, 23,000 of which are in my constituency in Birmingham and in four wards in the constituency of Birmingham, Small Heath. It is voluntary, and I shall advise my constituents to have nothing whatever to do with it. At the same time as census officers will be knocking on their doors, poll tax officers will also be at their doors. They will be falling over each other in my inner-city wards, where single people will have to pay more in poll tax than they now pay in rates.
§ Mr. CohenMy hon. Friend is making a series of excellent points. Is he aware that under amendment No. 234 poll tax officers who knock on the doors of his constituents can dupe those constituents and claim to be census officers? They could choose to do that under these powers.
§ Mr. RookerI am coming to that. It would save a lot of public money for one person to do both jobs. That is common sense. I shall advise my constituents not to trust the Government over the voluntary census in April 1989. They cannot be trusted with that information. I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell) takes the same view.
Ministers cannot say that they have not been warned about the census being affected. We want it to be accurate, but British people will not respond to the census in 1991 in the full-hearted way that they normally do because of the operation of the poll tax. They simply will not trust the Government for this intrusion into their privacy. If the Government wish to shift ministerial responsibility for the operation of the census to another Department, that is for them. It may be a good idea because the letter dated 19 July sent by the Department to the chief executive of Birmingham was addressed to a person who ceased to be the chief executive back in March.
The Minister claimed that amendment No. 249 comes as no great surprise to us, and that we already knew about it. We did know about it, because we found out about amendment No. 249 in a newspaper report. When we were 1179 discussing attachment of earnings and other poll tax matters in Committee, the guillotine was about to fall. It is not true, as the Minister of State said, that we had dealt with the poll tax in Committee. We had dealt only with a substantial part of the clauses relating to the poll tax in the early part of the Bill. If I remember rightly, just as we were discussing the rebate system, the guillotine came down. There were other later clauses relating to the poll tax.
I will plead guilty, and my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) will share the guilt, if guilt there be, but we did not ask about attachment of benefit, partly because of the constraint of time and partly because it never crossed our minds. However, Ministers were unhappy about the matter and told their friends in the Press Gallery that attachment of benefit was talked about in a Cabinet Sub-Committee. The story then appeared in The Independent, which is where we found out about it. It was never discussed in Committee. No Minister ever proposed it and it was not in the Bill.
That happened in February, but the Government could not even get the amendments ready for Report in April, so that the House could discuss the matter at length and we could try to amend the Government's proposals. Tabling amendments tonight would have been a complete waste of time, as the debate will be for only an hour and a half. We would not waste the time of the House, the Clerks, Hansard or the printers of the Order Paper. This debate on amendment No. 249 is the first opportunity that the House of Commons has had to discuss the attachment of benefit to poor people—those who already have the so-called 20 per cent. in the benefit, which we learned from an earlier debate will probably be half the population. Constituents of all hon. Members will be affected.
This measure is ludicrous because the very poorest people in the country, by definition, will be on income support. There are no poorer people in the country than those on income support—formerly supplementary benefit. They have been given this little extra in benefit—which we think will be eroded, but that is a matter for another time—to pay their poll tax. However, they cannot quite make that payment, because they have not yet had the full 20 per cent. because they live in an area with a poll tax slightly above average. Perhaps they have had a few extra bills for gas, for electricity or because their iron has broken. They do not receive money to replace capital goods. However, they choose to buy a new iron instead of paying the 20 per cent. of the poll tax.
The Minister intends to deduct from the income support—plus any fine or penalty—the money that the Government have already put in in the first place. There is a natural solution, and one that would save a lot of trouble. If the 20 per cent. is put into the benefit and is taken out before the people get their hands on it, because they may want to spend it on some emergency and transfer is straight to the local authority, would it not make more sense to stop people using the money as a piggy bank on the mantelpiece when it is not poll tax day but crisis day?
The Minister's argument will be accountability. Because people have not paid the pennies with their own hands, they will not understand about voting at local elections. That is ludicrous, as is the Minister's defence of this proposal. He is a member of the legal profession and must know about the courts of this country. Do we still 1180 have free courts? I cannot believe that the magistrates and the courts will stand any nonsense. The proposal is impractical. It is nasty and mean. I cannot understand for the life of me why the Minister is prepared to defend it. He is the only Minister who has had to defend it, as it is the first time it has been debated in the House. Where are the Secretary of State and the Minister of State? The attachment of benefit is a disgrace.
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I invite the Minister in the short time available to put up a better and a more honest case than he was able to put earlier. I do not accuse him of personal dishonesty, but I invite him to put up a more honest and open case to explain to my hon. Friends and the millions of people outside why this system is necessary, especially as it has not been deemed necessary under domestic rating. The treasurers I have spoken to think that the domestic rating system is good administration and they never dreamed that they would have to have recourse to this kind of decision to collect the rates. If a system has been good enough for the rates, why cannot it not be good enough for the poll tax? There must be a simple answer somewhere.
§ Mr. Peter L. Pike (Burnley)I have deliberately chosen to speak on this group of amendments, because it includes two important principles that I feel should be rejected. We are all aware that the Government have allowed insufficient time to debate the important changes made in the other place. We have been forced to skip over many today. There has not been time to put many of them to the vote. The two important principles, included in the amendments against which my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) spoke, are very different, compared with the time when they were dealt with in Committee.
Attachment of benefit was not debated in Committee at all. Although the Secretary of State and the Minister of State referred to it on Report, we were precluded from debating it because we had no amendment before us. This is the first opportunity that we have had to discuss the principle involved in amendment No. 249. During the debate that we had on attachment of earnings and other matters, I put one question to the Minister of State. I said that we were opposed to the principle, and asked what, if the Government were forcing us along this line,
will be the position if the attachment of benefit to pay the poll tax reduces that person's level of income, through benefit or income support, below what the statute decrees that person needs for his or her requirements?"—[Official Report, 20 April 1988: Vol. 131, c. 876.]That is another issue that the Minister needs to explain. Amendment No. 249, in subsection (2)(b), says:which may include provision to secure that amounts payable to the debtor by way of income support do not fall below prescribed figures".I stress that it uses the word "may". It does not say "it must not". Even if we are forced to accept the principle, to which we are completely opposed, if the amendment is passed, in some cases it will be possible for magistrates to reduce a person's income—which may affect the family—to a level below that prescribed by statute as being the absolute minimum for his or her requirements. We all know that many people live in poverty and degradation. In relative terms, a few pence or a pound a week are of crucial importance to them. The Government cannot callously dismiss them, as they have done on other occasions.1181 The matter is extremely important. Opposition Members believe that the principle behind the amendment is completely wrong. The benefit should be paid. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South (Ms. Primarolo) said that there was a considerable difference between the Minister's points about electricity and gas. That is an essential point for people who choose to have their benefit deducted to pay gas and electricity bills. That option should be available if people believe that it helps their money management and budget control, while recognising the difficulties in which they live. That must be a personal choice.
The amendment does not involve any choice on the part of the people involved. They will be compelled to go along a certain line if a magistrate so determines. That is appalling and should be strongly opposed. Conservative Members—I note that they are not in evidence here to debate the matter—should recognise the importance of the principle involved.
We all know that the Government introduced the amendment in the Lords and introduced the attachment of earnings amendment on Report because the tax is unpopular throughout the country as it fails to take account of ability to pay. There will be many court cases. Many people will choose to go to prison rather than pay. To try to prevent the legal and prison systems being clogged up, the Government introduced the attachment of earnings. and attachment of benefit provisions. The Government know that people will not accept that the poll tax system is fair. It shifts the method of support of local government from ability to pay. The people who can afford to pay now pay more. Whatever anomalies and faults may exist in the present system, it is certainly fairer than a system that will make the poorest people pay an ever increasing share of local government expenditure.
Amendment No. 234 deals with the passing of DHSS information to community charge poll tax officers—call them what one will. It is an important issue. Despite what the Minister said, it is not true to say that the Government have stated that his was the direction in which they intended to go all along. My hon. Friend the Member for Perry Barr is absolutely right. Time and again in Committee and on Report the Secretary of State, the Minister and the Under-Secretary of State emphasised that, although information will be available from other local government sources, whether it be from housing departments, grants departments, libraries and so on—we have many criticisms of such aspects, but we are not debating them today—information will not be available from Government Departments such as the Inland Revenue and the DHSS. Of course, they said what will happen when a person asks for a particular benefit.
Amendment No. 234 is quite different. The Department will give information to the local authority. I have no doubt that, when they consider it necessary, the Government will change the legislation. They may as well open the door and say that information obtained may be from everywhere. As several of my hon. Friends have said on many occasions, to make the system work the Government will have to accept the inevitability of identity cards or some other form of national registration. A Library research note, which is available to all hon. Members, states:
This amendment was promised during the Commons proceedings.I do not believe that that is strictly correct. It goes on: 1182It will allow regulations to be made which would permit the Social Services Secretary to disclose prescribed information to registration officers. The Minister promised that the information would be restricted to the names and addresses only of those people in receipt of income support who have not applied for a community charge rebate.That is a dangerous precedent. We all know that once the first foot is in the door of the DHSS, other information will be available. My hon. Friend the Member for Perry Barr referred to the census. If we operate a fair system, there will be a willingness to co-operate. The Government know that this system is not fair, that there will be difficulties in getting people to register, and that they will have to take increasingly draconian powers to ensure that information is given to community charge registration officers if they are to be able to collect the poll tax.The amendments are completely wrong. They should be defeated because they are not acceptable. As I have said, I hope that some Conservative Members will be prepared to reject the amendments, because they move along a dangerous line. Conservative Members should carefully consider the implications of the amendments before they decide to go into the Division Lobby with the Government.
§ Mr. Matthew TaylorWhenever we have debated civil liberties and the poll tax, the Government have repeatedly assured us that information will not be passed from one body to another without restriction, and, as the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) said, that national information will not be passed to local bodies. The amendment seems to give the Secretary of State just such carte blanche to pass information to local authorities. It states:
no duty of confidentiality shall prevent the Secretary of State from disclosing relevant information".If personal social security information is given to officials in good faith, should it not remain confidential? Does not the amendment make any reference to confidentiality by DHSS officers completely worthless? It may be that the personal information involved is sensitive—for example, information regarding personal relationships—but of no interest in terms of poll tax liabilities. Should not claimants be guaranteed confidentiality? Clause 13A would prohibit such a guarantee. We have tabled an amendment precisely to take out the clause.If an hon. Member on the Labour Front Bench could get me a glass of water, it would be helpful. Meanwhile, I am sure that I shall survive.
The main Opposition party has many purposes, and one of them is to give glasses of water to those hon. Members who are too far away from the Table to do so for themselves.
§ Mr. McKelveyThe hon. Gentleman would not get a glass of water from that bunch of gangsters over there.
§ Mr. TaylorWater will be privatised as well and there will be a tax on it soon, so we had better take the opportunity while we have it.
The hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Cohen) has tabled a constructive amendment. The Minister has said that there are drafting problems, and I would not like to say that he is wrong. However, the intention behind the amendment is good, and the Government should accept the spirit behind it.
Although confidentiality is important, the essential issue arises in Lords amendment No. 249. The 1183 Government's intention to introduce a provision for attachment of benefit was leaked in the press on 26 February, by which time the House of Commons Standing Committee had missed the opportunity to debate it. By the time the Bill reached the Floor of the House on Report, Tory Back Benchers had already threatened to revolt on other key parts of the Bill and, not surprisingly, the relevant Government amendments failed to appear. After all, why risk trouble when the Government already had trouble? As a result, we had no chance in the Commons to discuss the amendments.
The Government's caution is understandable because adding attachment of benefit makes an already appalling Bill even worse. The Government's statements defending their position completely miss the fundamental difficulty.
§ 9 pm
§ Ms. PrimaroloThe hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) makes a point about confidentiality of information and attachment of earnings. Is it not legitimate for us to say that we expect to see in the next Finance Bill clauses that will instruct accountants of those who attempt to evade payment of taxes to disclose that information to the Treasury? The Treasury can then put an attachment on the earnings. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that would be a comparable measure? If we were talking about tax evasion, we would see the Conservative Benches full.
§ Mr. TaylorThe hon. Lady is right. I am appalled by the way in which benefit fraud, which accounts for much less than tax fraud, is more fiercely treated. The Conservative Government are not the first to act in that way—it has had a long history. I do not understand why they allow it to happen. It is not right.
The position is even worse than the hon. Lady suggests. It is not a simple question of whether one gives the money that one should. The Government will assume that all those who do not pay their poll tax have sufficient funds to do so. One would assume that that was right for the income tax system, by definition. But that will not happen by definition under the Government's poll tax system. All those asked to pay the poll tax may not be receiving through the benefit system the money that they need to pay it. That point was put appropriately in the debate on disabled people and the elderly on low incomes.
The uprating will be based on the national average poll tax. The amount added to benefits will reflect average poll tax liabilities. Unfortunately, the person who has to pay that tax may not be Mr. or Mrs. Average. In fact, he or she may be the poorest in society and may be unfortunate enough not to live in an average local authority area. Such people are likely to live in an especially poor local authority area. The average poll tax bill in poor local authority areas will tend to be rather higher than the average nationally. These people will be asked to pay cash that they have not received and asked to pay bills that they are unable to pay.
Examples of the losers may be found in Southwark and Bermondsey.
§ Mr. HarrisWhat about Cornwall?
§ Mr. TaylorAccording to the poll tax figures for 1988–89 issued by the Department of the Environment, the 1184 poll tax in Southwark will be £515 per annum. Every person in Southwark on income support will have to find £53.80 per annum they do not have to pay the poll tax bill.
The hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Harris) has rightly asked about Cornwall. This will not happen there. People in our area are fortunate. This is neither the fault of the people who live in the inner cities nor anything that people in Cornwall have deliberately set out to achieve, although people in Cornwall have good councillors. Unfortunately, because of the way in which the grant system works, sensible councils in other parts of the country will not necessarily have the same benefits. Many people will not be able to affect the running of their council. Perhaps all the people who are badly hit will change the way in which they vote, although it is difficult to understand why they should change their vote to vote for a party that introduced the problem. Their vote might not change the complexion of the council in any case. There is no guarantee that someone who has lost out as a result of the poll tax will be able to affect the running of the council.
The clause will force people to pay money that they do not have in circumstances in which they cannot change things. As was said earlier, it will literally take the food out of people's mouths. The prospect for such people is grim. They will have to pay more in the first instance than they have. If they are unable to pay the poll tax, an attachment order will be placed on them.
§ Ms. PrimaroloThat is why the attachment order is unfair.
§ Mr. TaylorAs the hon. Lady said, the attachment order is unfair. It cannot be fair to ask people to pay the poll tax when they do not have the money to do so.
The Minister referred to electricity and gas bills, but the principle behind them is rather different because people can directly affect the amount of their gas and electricity bills. I would argue in fact that that system is not perfect. There should be a right to supply, and people should get the heat and warmth that they need as they pay. However, in the case of the poll tax, people have no such direct effect on what they pay. They cannot be careful with their poll tax, although the Government argue that they can through the vote. It will not work as simply as that. Individuals cannot make a decision on it.
§ Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster)Was the hon. Gentleman in the Chamber a couple of hours ago when my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Maples) said that the rates in a certain London borough had already fallen by £100 in anticipation of the poll tax and that they can be expected to fall still further in other districts that are ill-governed at present?
§ Mr. TaylorI only wish that it was as simple as that. It does not work like that, and even if it did, I am sure that it would not be because poor old Joe Soap living in a certain district on income support thought, "I shall have to pay out a fortune if I do not change my vote." The hon. Member for Lancaster (Dame E. Kellett-Bowman) knows that it does not work like that. If she thinks that she is too highly rated—I suspect that she does—and wants to change that, there is nothing that she can individually do about it. She can vote until she is blue in the face——
§ Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse (Pontefract and Castleford)Does the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) agree that the hon. Member for Lancaster (Dame E. 1185 Kellett-Bowman) has no idea about the kind of people to whom he is referring? She has enjoyed a European salary as well as a salary from this House, her husband has also enjoyed a European salary and she has farming interests. How can she expect to understand poor people's problems?
§ Dame Elaine Kellett-BowmanOn a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. As the hon. Gentleman was so insulting in his reference to me. I remind him that I have not been in the European Parliament for five years, and neither has my husband. I am full-time in this Parliament and I gave up my career at the Bar to be full-time. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would withdraw.
§ Mr. TaylorI am delighted to hear that unlike many of her colleagues the hon. Lady is a full-time Member of the House—[Interruption.]
§ Madam Deputy SpeakerOrder. I am keen to hear the hon. Member who has the Floor.
§ Mr. TaylorI congratulate the hon. Member for Lancaster on being full-time; I only wish that more of her colleagues were. I must gently remind the hon. Lady, however, that the income that she receives from this place is rather different from income support. Unless I am much mistaken, she does not sacrifice much of the salary that she earns in the process of her duties to try to understand the difficulties of those whom she attempts to represent. The hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Mr. Lofthouse) is right that the hon. Lady and her hon. Friends do not understand. Perhaps I can explain to her with some mathematics. It is generally accepted that income support is the very least that is needed to sustain someone. If one tries to take more away from the poor than they have, they cannot survive. This penal measure should be dropped from the Bill, and I hope that Conservative Members will recognise that.
§ Mr. HarrisThe hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) normally speaks about the poorest of the county of Cornwall. On this occasion it is noticeable that he did not volunteer Cornwall as an area that would be clobbered by the community charge. Because rates in Cornwall have historically been kept at a reasonable level, people on income support there will benefit from the average nature of the DHSS contribution to their community charge. The hon. Gentleman will know, because it is his party that is basically calling the tune in Cornwall, that a rate increase of 14 per cent. has been suggested for Cornwall.
§ Mr. Matthew Taylorrose——
§ Mr. HarrisI cannot allow the hon. Gentleman to intervene, because the Minister must reply shortly.
Under the influence of the hon. Gentleman's party there is to be a 14 per cent. rate increase, and Cornwall is catching up fast in that regard.
§ Mr. Matthew Taylorrose——
§ Mr. HarrisNo, I cannot let the hon. Gentleman interrupt me.
I link those remarks with the comments of the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike), who talked a lot—as Opposition Members have done in this debate and before—about inability to pay. The question that is never posed is whether under the existing system councils consider the ability of people to pay their rates—rates that are subject 1186 to the 14 per cent. increase that is now being levied by Cornwall county council. Such a consideration never enters the argument.
I refer to the remarks of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), as it is because of them that I intervene. The hon. Gentleman advanced the proposition that it is no business of the DHSS to tell the poll tax officer that the Department had paid someone an average 20 per cent. contribution towards his community charge. To my simple mind, it seems to flow from that that the hon. Member for Perry Barr is claiming that it is no business of the DHSS to pass on such information, and that if people can evade the community charge they should be left free to do so.
§ Mr. Rookerrose——
§ Mr. HarrisI cannot allow the hon. Gentleman to intervene, for the reason that I have explained, and he would not give way to my intervention.
§ Mr. RookerI did.
§ Mr. HarrisNot to my second intervention. I must continue, because my hon. Friend the Minister has only three minutes in which to reply.
The DHSS has a duty and a moral obligation——
§ Mr. RookerThe hon. Gentleman should not talk about morals.
§ Mr. HarrisIf the DHSS has made a contribution to an individual's community charge, that information should be declared to the poll tax officer. That is only fair. We must remember always that it is not the Government who are paying, but people not on income support who are helping to finance those contributions. Many are themselves on very small incomes. In fairness to them, information about DHSS contributions should be made available to the poll tax officer in order to cut down on evasion once the community charge is introduced.
§ Mr. ChopeMy hon. Friend the Member for St Ives. (Mr. Harris) is absolutely right and the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) is absolutely wrong. The hon. Member for Truro spoke about poor local authority areas, but it is poorly administered local authority areas that will result in large community charges. There will be needs assessments of all areas so that those that are poorer will receive more grant than others that are not so poor. However, that grant system will not make up for the extravagance or poor administration of individual local authorities. For example, on this year's figures, Southwark would receive £711 per adult support grant, compared with a national average of only £264.
Much of this debate was wasted by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) boxing with shadows. I give the House an absolute assurance that there is no question of census data being made available to community charge registration officers. Nothing in the Bill, and nothing in these amendments, would empower those officers to have access to census information. To suggest otherwise is nothing short of evil scaremongering. The hon. Gentleman said that all the information collected by the Secretary of State for Social Services would be passed to the community charge registration officer. As I have already explained, only names and addresses will be passed on. We shall make that clear in regulations made under this provision.
1187 I referred earlier to farce, and I shall refer to more Opposition humbug. The hon. Member for Perry Barr expressed concern about census information. I assure him that no census data will be made available to CCROs. I point out that any system of local income tax, which I believe his party supports, would require a register to be drawn up showing the address of every taxpayer, and a lot more information besides.
§ It being a quarter past Nine o'clock, MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order this day, to put the Question already proposed from the Chair.
§ The House divided: Ayes 204, Noes 288.
1190| Division No. 431] | [9.15 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Allen, Graham | Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Fatchett, Derek |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Faulds, Andrew |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich) | Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n) |
| Barron, Kevin | Fisher, Mark |
| Battle, John | Flannery, Martin |
| Beckett, Margaret | Flynn, Paul |
| Beggs, Roy | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Bell, Stuart | Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S) |
| Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) | Foster, Derek |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Foulkes, George |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Fraser, John |
| Blair, Tony | Fyfe, Maria |
| Boateng, Paul | Galbraith, Sam |
| Boyes, Roland | Galloway, George |
| Bradley, Keith | Garrett, John (Norwich South) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Garrett, Ted (Wallsend) |
| Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) | George, Bruce |
| Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith) | Godman, Dr Norman A. |
| Buchan, Norman | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Buckley, George J. | Gould, Bryan |
| Caborn, Richard | Graham, Thomas |
| Callaghan, Jim | Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) |
| Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley) | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Canavan, Dennis | Grocott, Bruce |
| Cartwright, John | Hardy, Peter |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Healey, Rt Hon Denis |
| Clay, Bob | Henderson, Doug |
| Clelland, David | Hinchliffe, David |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) |
| Cohen, Harry | Home Robertson, John |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Hood, Jimmy |
| Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
| Corbett, Robin | Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Hughes, John (Coventry NE) |
| Cousins, Jim | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Cox, Tom | Hughes, Roy (Newport E) |
| Cryer, Bob | Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) |
| Cummings, John | Hughes, Simon (Southwark) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Illsley, Eric |
| Dalyell, Tam | Ingram, Adam |
| Darling, Alistair | John, Brynmor |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) |
| Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) | Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l) | Kennedy, Charles |
| Dewar, Donald | Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil |
| Dixon, Don | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Dobson, Frank | Lambie, David |
| Doran, Frank | Lamond, James |
| Douglas, Dick | Leighton, Ron |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Lestor, Joan (Eccles) |
| Dunnachie, Jimmy | Lewis, Terry |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth | Litherland, Robert |
| Eastham, Ken | Livsey, Richard |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Redmond, Martin |
| Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn |
| Loyden, Eddie | Reid, Dr John |
| McAllion, John | Richardson, Jo |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| McCartney, Ian | Robertson, George |
| McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) | Rogers, Allan |
| McKelvey, William | Rooker, Jeff |
| McLeish, Henry | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| McNamara, Kevin | Rowlands, Ted |
| McTaggart, Bob | Ruddock, Joan |
| McWilliam, John | Salmond, Alex |
| Madden, Max | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Maginnis, Ken | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Mahon, Mrs Alice | Short, Clare |
| Marek, Dr John | Skinner, Dennis |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E) |
| Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) | Soley, Clive |
| Maxton, John | Spearing, Nigel |
| Meacher, Michael | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Meale, Alan | Strang, Gavin |
| Michael, Alun | Straw, Jack |
| Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Turner, Dennis |
| Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) | Vaz, Keith |
| Molyneaux, Rt Hon James | Wall, Pat |
| Morley, Elliott | Wallace, James |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) | Walley, Joan |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Mullin, Chris | Wareing, Robert N. |
| Murphy, Paul | Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N) |
| Nellist, Dave | Williams, Rt Hon Alan |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then) |
| O'Brien, William | Wilson, Brian |
| O'Neill, Martin | Winnick, David |
| Parry, Robert | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Patchett, Terry | Worthington, Tony |
| Pike, Peter L. | Wray, Jimmy |
| Powell, Ray (Ogmore) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Prescott, John | |
| Primarolo, Dawn | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Quin, Ms Joyce | Mr. Frank Haynes and Mr. Allen Adams. |
| Radice, Giles |
| NOES | |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Brittan, Rt Hon Leon |
| Alexander, Richard | Brooke, Rt Hon Peter |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's) |
| Amos, Alan | Browne, John (Winchester) |
| Arbuthnot, James | Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Buck, Sir Antony |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Burt, Alistair |
| Atkins, Robert | Butcher, John |
| Atkinson, David | Butler, Chris |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Butterfill, John |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Carlisle, John, (Luton N) |
| Baldry, Tony | Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) |
| Batiste, Spencer | Carrington, Matthew |
| Bellingham, Henry | Cash, William |
| Bendall, Vivian | Channon, Rt Hon Paul |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Chapman, Sydney |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Chope, Christopher |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Churchill, Mr |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) |
| Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) |
| Body, Sir Richard | Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Colvin, Michael |
| Boswell, Tim | Conway, Derek |
| Bottomley, Peter | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
| Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n) | Cope, Rt Hon John |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Couchman, James |
| Bowis, John | Cran, James |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes | Currie, Mrs Edwina |
| Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard | Curry, David |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) |
| Brazier, Julian | Davis, David (Boothferry) |
| Bright, Graham | Day, Stephen |
| Devlin, Tim | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Dicks, Terry | Knapman, Roger |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Knight, Greg (Derby North) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) |
| Dover, Den | Knowles, Michael |
| Dunn, Bob | Lamont, Rt Hon Norman |
| Dykes, Hugh | Lang, Ian |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Latham, Michael |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Evennett, David | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Fallon, Michael | Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) |
| Farr, Sir John | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Favell, Tony | Lightbown, David |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Lilley, Peter |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Lord, Michael |
| Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey | Luce, Rt Hon Richard |
| Fishburn, John Dudley | Lyell, Sir Nicholas |
| Forman, Nigel | McCrindle, Robert |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Macfarlane, Sir Neil |
| Forth, Eric | MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire) |
| Fox, Sir Marcus | Maclean, David |
| Franks, Cecil | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Freeman, Roger | McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael |
| French, Douglas | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) |
| Fry, Peter | Madel, David |
| Gale, Roger | Major, Rt Hon John |
| Gardiner, George | Malins, Humfrey |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Mans, Keith |
| Gill, Christopher | Maples, John |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Marland, Paul |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Marlow, Tony |
| Gorst, John | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Gow, Ian | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW) | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Gregory, Conal | Mellor, David |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) | Miller, Sir Hal |
| Grist, Ian | Mills, Iain |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Mitchell, David (Hants NW) |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Moate, Roger |
| Hannam, John | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Harris, David | Moore, Rt Hon John |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester) |
| Hawkins, Christopher | Moss, Malcolm |
| Hayes, Jerry | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Hayward, Robert | Mudd, David |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Neale, Gerrard |
| Heddle, John | Nelson, Anthony |
| Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) | Neubert, Michael |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Newton, Rt Hon Tony |
| Hill, James | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Hind, Kenneth | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) |
| Holt, Richard | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Hordern, Sir Peter | Page, Richard |
| Howard, Michael | Paice, James |
| Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) | Patnick, Irvine |
| Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) | Patten, Chris (Bath) |
| Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Patten, John (Oxford W) |
| Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) | Pawsey, James |
| Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Hunt, David (Wirral W) | Portillo. Michael |
| Hunter, Andrew | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Irving, Charles | Price, Sir David |
| Jack, Michael | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Jackson, Robert | Redwood, John |
| Janman, Tim | Rhodes James, Robert |
| Jessel, Toby | Riddick, Graham |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Jones, Robert B (Herts W) | Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm |
| Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Key, Robert | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Kilfedder, James | Rossi, Sir Hugh |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) | Rost, Peter |
| King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) | Rowe, Andrew |
| Ryder, Richard | Thorne, Neil |
| Sackville, Hon Tom | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Sainsbury, Hon Tim | Thurnham, Peter |
| Sayeed, Jonathan | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Scott, Nicholas | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Shaw, David (Dover) | Tracey, Richard |
| Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) | Tredinnick, David |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) | Trippier, David |
| Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) | Trotter, Neville |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Sims, Roger | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Skeet, Sir Trevor | Viggers, Peter |
| Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Soames, Hon Nicholas | Walden, George |
| Speed, Keith | Waller, Gary |
| Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) | Ward, John |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Watts, John |
| Stanley, Rt Hon John | Wells, Bowen |
| Stern, Michael | Wheeler, John |
| Stevens, Lewis | Whitney, Ray |
| Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) | Wilkinson, John |
| Stewart, Ian (Hertfordshire N) | Wilshire, David |
| Stradling Thomas, Sir John | Wolfson, Mark |
| Sumberg, David | Wood, Timothy |
| Summerson, Hugo | Woodcock, Mike |
| Taylor, Ian (Esher) | Yeo, Tim |
| Taylor, John M (Solihull) | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) | |
| Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) | Mr. Robert Boscawen and Mr. Tony Durant. |
| Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
§ Question negatived.
§ MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at that hour.
§ Question put, That this House doth agree with the Lords in their amendment No. 234:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 282, Noes 204.
1193| Division No. 432] | [9.29 pm |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Buck, Sir Antony |
| Amos, Alan | Burt, Alistair |
| Arbuthnot, James | Butcher, John |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Butler, Chris |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Butterfill, John |
| Atkins, Robert | Carlisle, John, (Luton N) |
| Atkinson, David | Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Carrington, Matthew |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Cash, William |
| Baldry, Tony | Channon, Rt Hon Paul |
| Batiste, Spencer | Chapman, Sydney |
| Bellingham, Henry | Chope, Christopher |
| Bendall, Vivian | Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Colvin, Michael |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Conway, Derek |
| Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) |
| Body, Sir Richard | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
| Boswell, Tim | Cope, Rt Hon John |
| Bottomley, Peter | Couchman, James |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Cran, James |
| Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n) | Currie, Mrs Edwina |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Curry, David |
| Bowis, John | Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes | Davis, David (Boothferry) |
| Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard | Day, Stephen |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Devlin, Tim |
| Brazier, Julian | Dicks, Terry |
| Bright, Graham | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Dover, Den |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's) | Dunn, Bob |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Durant, Tony |
| Dykes, Hugh | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) | Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) |
| Evennett, David | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Fallon, Michael | Lightbown, David |
| Farr, Sir John | Lilley, Peter |
| Favell, Tony | Lord, Michael |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Luce, Rt Hon Richard |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Lyell, Sir Nicholas |
| Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey | McCrindle, Robert |
| Fishburn, John Dudley | Macfarlane, Sir Neil |
| Forman, Nigel | MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire) |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Maclean, David |
| Forth, Eric | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Fox, Sir Marcus | McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael |
| Franks, Cecil | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) |
| Freeman, Roger | Major, Rt Hon John |
| French, Douglas | Malins, Humfrey |
| Fry, Peter | Mans, Keith |
| Gale, Roger | Maples, John |
| Gardiner, George | Marland, Paul |
| Gill, Christopher | Marlow, Tony |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Gorst, John | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Gow, Ian | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Mellor, David |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Miller, Sir Hal |
| Gregory, Conal | Mills, Iain |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Grist, Ian | Mitchell, David (Hants NW) |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Moate, Roger |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Hannam, John | Moore, Rt Hon John |
| Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') | Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester) |
| Harris, David | Moss, Malcolm |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Hawkins, Christopher | Mudd, David |
| Hayes, Jerry | Neale, Gerrard |
| Hayward, Robert | Nelson, Anthony |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Neubert, Michael |
| Heddle, John | Newton, Rt Hon Tony |
| Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Hill, James | Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) |
| Hind, Kenneth | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Holt, Richard | Page, Richard |
| Hordern, Sir Peter | Paice, James |
| Howard, Michael | Patnick, Irvine |
| Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) | Patten, Chris (Bath) |
| Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) | Pawsey, James |
| Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) | Portillo, Michael |
| Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Hunt, David (Wirral W) | Price, Sir David |
| Hunter, Andrew | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Irving, Charles | Redwood, John |
| Jack, Michael | Rhodes James, Robert |
| Jackson, Robert | Riddick, Graham |
| Janman, Tim | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Jessel, Toby | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Jones, Robert B (Herts W) | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Rossi, Sir Hugh |
| Key, Robert | Rost, Peter |
| Kilfedder, James | Rowe, Andrew |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) | Ryder, Richard |
| King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) | Sackville, Hon Tom |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Sainsbury, Hon Tim |
| Knapman, Roger | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Knight, Greg (Derby North) | Scott, Nicholas |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Knowles, Michael | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Lamont, Rt Hon Norman | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Lang, Ian | Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) |
| Latham, Michael | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Sims, Roger | Tracey, Richard |
| Skeet, Sir Trevor | Tredinnick, David |
| Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) | Trippier, David |
| Soames, Hon Nicholas | Trotter, Neville |
| Speed, Keith | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Viggers, Peter |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Stanley, Rt Hon John | Walden, George |
| Stern, Michael | Waller, Gary |
| Stevens, Lewis | Ward, John |
| Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) | Watts, John |
| Stewart, Ian (Hertfordshire N) | Wells, Bowen |
| Stradling Thomas, Sir John | Wheeler, John |
| Sumberg, David | Whitney, Ray |
| Summerson, Hugo | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Taylor, Ian (Esher) | Wilkinson, John |
| Taylor, John M (Solihull) | Wilshire, David |
| Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman | Wood, Timothy |
| Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) | Woodcock, Mike |
| Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) | Yeo, Tim |
| Thorne, Neil | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Thornton, Malcolm | |
| Thurnham, Peter | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Townend, John (Bridlington) | Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones and Mr. Robert Boscawen. |
| Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Dewar, Donald |
| Allen, Graham | Dixon, Don |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Dobson, Frank |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Doran, Frank |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Douglas, Dick |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Duffy, A. E. P. |
| Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich) | Dunnachie, Jimmy |
| Barron, Kevin | Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth |
| Battle, John | Eastham, Ken |
| Beckett, Margaret | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Beggs, Roy | Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) |
| Bell, Stuart | Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Fatchett, Derek |
| Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) | Faulds, Andrew |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n) |
| Blair, Tony | Fisher, Mark |
| Boateng, Paul | Flannery, Martin |
| Boyes, Roland | Flynn, Paul |
| Bradley, Keith | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S) |
| Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) | Foster, Derek |
| Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith) | Foulkes, George |
| Buchan, Norman | Fraser, John |
| Buckley, George J. | Fyfe, Maria |
| Caborn, Richard | Galbraith, Sam |
| Callaghan, Jim | Galloway, George |
| Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley) | Garrett, John (Norwich South) |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Garrett, Ted (Wallsend) |
| Canavan, Dennis | George, Bruce |
| Cartwright, John | Godman, Dr Norman A. |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Gould, Bryan |
| Clay, Bob | Graham, Thomas |
| Clelland, David | Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) |
| Cohen, Harry | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Grocott, Bruce |
| Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Hardy, Peter |
| Corbett, Robin | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Healey, Rt Hon Denis |
| Cousins, Jim | Henderson, Doug |
| Cox, Tom | Hinchliffe, David |
| Cryer, Bob | Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) |
| Cummings, John | Holland, Stuart |
| Dalyell, Tam | Home Robertson, John |
| Darling, Alistair | Hood, Jimmy |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
| Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) | Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l) | Hughes, John (Coventry NE) |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport E) | O'Brien, William |
| Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) | O'Neill, Martin |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Parry, Robert |
| Illsley, Eric | Patchett, Terry |
| Ingram, Adam | Pike, Peter L. |
| Janner, Greville | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| John, Brynmor | Prescott, John |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Kennedy, Charles | Radice, Giles |
| Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil | Redmond, Martin |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn |
| Lamond, James | Reid, Dr John |
| Leighton, Ron | Richardson, Jo |
| Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Robertson, George |
| Lewis, Terry | Rogers, Allan |
| Litherland, Robert | Rooker, Jeff |
| Livsey, Richard | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Ruddock, Joan |
| Loyden, Eddie | Salmond, Alex |
| McAllion, John | Sedgemore, Brian |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| McCartney, Ian | Short, Clare |
| McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) | Skinner, Dennis |
| McKelvey, William | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| McLeish, Henry | Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E) |
| McNamara, Kevin | Soley, Clive |
| McTaggart, Bob | Spearing, Nigel |
| McWilliam, John | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Madden, Max | Strang, Gavin |
| Maginnis, Ken | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Mahon, Mrs Alice | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Marek, Dr John | Turner, Dennis |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Vaz, Keith |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Wall, Pat |
| Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) | Wallace, James |
| Maxton, John | Walley, Joan |
| Meacher, Michael | Warden, Gareth (Gower) |
| Meale, Alan | Wareing, Robert N. |
| Michael, Alun | Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N) |
| Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Williams, Rt Hon Alan |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) | Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then) |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Wilson, Brian |
| Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) | Winnick, David |
| Molyneaux, Rt Hon James | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Morgan, Rhodri | Worthington, Tony |
| Morley, Elliott | Wray, Jimmy |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | |
| Mullin, Chris | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Murphy, Paul | Mr. Frank Haynes and |
| Nellist, Dave | Mr. Allen Adams. |
§ Question agreed to.
§ Lords amendment No. 234 agreed to.
§ Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in their amendment No. 33:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 280, Noes 202.
1196| Division No. 433] | [9.42 pm |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Biggs-Davison, Sir John |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Blackburn, Dr John G. |
| Amos, Alan | Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Arbuthnot, James | Body, Sir Richard |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Boswell, Tim |
| Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove) | Bottomley, Peter |
| Atkins, Robert | Bottomley, Mrs Virginia |
| Atkinson, David | Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n) |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N) | Bowis, John |
| Baldry, Tony | Boyson, Rt Hon Dr Sir Rhodes |
| Batiste, Spencer | Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard |
| Bellingham, Henry | Brandon-Bravo, Martin |
| Bendall, Vivian | Brazier, Julian |
| Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Bright, Graham |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Brittan, Rt Hon Leon |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's) | Heddle, John |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE) |
| Bruce, Ian (Dorset South) | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Hill, James |
| Burt, Alistair | Hind, Kenneth |
| Butcher, John | Holt, Richard |
| Butler, Chris | Hordern, Sir Peter |
| Butterfill, John | Howard, Michael |
| Carlisle, John, (Luton N) | Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) |
| Carrington, Matthew | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Cash, William | Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford) |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Hunt, David (Wirral W) |
| Chope, Christopher | Hunter, Andrew |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Irving, Charles |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Jack, Michael |
| Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) | Jackson, Robert |
| Colvin, Michael | Janman, Tim |
| Conway, Derek | Jessel, Toby |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest) | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Cope, Rt Hon John | Jones, Robert B (Herts W) |
| Couchman, James | Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine |
| Cran, James | Key, Robert |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Kilfedder, James |
| Curry, David | King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield) |
| Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) | King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Day, Stephen | Knapman, Roger |
| Devlin, Tim | Knight, Greg (Derby North) |
| Dicks, Terry | Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Knowles, Michael |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Lamont, Rt Hon Norman |
| Dover, Den | Lang, Ian |
| Dunn, Bob | Latham, Michael |
| Durant, Tony | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd) | Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) |
| Evennett, David | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Fallon, Michael | Lightbown, David |
| Farr, Sir John | Lilley, Peter |
| Favell, Tony | Lord, Michael |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Luce, Rt Hon Richard |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Lyell, Sir Nicholas |
| Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey | McCrindle, Robert |
| Fishburn John Dudley | Macfarlane, Sir Neil |
| Forman, Nigel | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire) |
| Forth, Eric | Maclean, David |
| Fox, Sir Marcus | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Franks, Cecil | McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael |
| Freeman, Roger | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Fomst) |
| French, Douglas | Major, Rt Hon John |
| Fry, Peter | Malins, Humfrey |
| Gale, Roger | Mans, Keith |
| Gardiner, George | Maples, John |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Marland, Paul |
| Gill, Christopher | Marlow, Tony |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Gorst, John | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Gow, Ian | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW) | Mellor, David |
| Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Miller, Sir Hal |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Mills, Iain |
| Gregory, Conal | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) | Mitchell, David (Hants NW) |
| Grist, Ian | Moate, Roger |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Hannam, John | Moore, Rt Hon John |
| Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr') | Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester) |
| Harris, David | Moss, Malcolm |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Moynihan, Hon Colin |
| Hawkins, Christopher | Mudd, David |
| Hayes, Jerry | Neale, Gerrard |
| Hayward, Robert | Nelson, Anthony |
| Neubert, Michael | Stern, Michael |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Stevens, Lewis |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Stewart, Andy (Sherwood) |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Stewart, Ian (Hertfordshire N) |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Stradling Thomas, Sir John |
| Page, Richard | Sumberg, David |
| Paice, James | Summerson, Hugo |
| Patnick, Irvine | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
| Patten, Chris (Bath) | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| Pawsey, James | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Portillo, Michael | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Price, Sir David | Thorne, Neil |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Redwood, John | Thurnham, Peter |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Riddick, Graham | Tracey, Richard |
| Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas | Tredinnick, David |
| Ridsdale, Sir Julian | Trippier, David |
| Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm | Trotter, Neville |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Roe, Mrs Marion | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Rossi, Sir Hugh | Viggers, Peter |
| Rost, Peter | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Rowe, Andrew | Walden, George |
| Rumbold, Mrs Angela | Waller, Gary |
| Sackville, Hon Tom | Ward, John |
| Sainsbury, Hon Tim | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Sayeed, Jonathan | Watts, John |
| Scott, Nicholas | Wells, Bowen |
| Shaw, David (Dover) | Wheeler, John |
| Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) | Whitney, Ray |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW) | Wilkinson, John |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Wilshire, David |
| Sims, Roger | Wolfson, Mark |
| Skeet, Sir Trevor | Wood, Timothy |
| Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) | Woodcock, Mike |
| Soames, Hon Nicholas | Yeo, Tim |
| Speed, Keith | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W) | |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Mr. Robert Boscawen and |
| Stanley, Rt Hon John | Mr. Richard Ryder. |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) |
| Allen, Graham | Clay, Bob |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Clelland, David |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Clwyd, Mrs Ann |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Cohen, Harry |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Cook, Frank (Stockton N) |
| Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich) | Cook, Robin (Livingston) |
| Barron, Kevin | Corbett, Robin |
| Battle, John | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Beckett, Margaret | Cousins, Jim |
| Beggs, Roy | Cox, Tom |
| Bell, Stuart | Cryer, Bob |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Cummings, John |
| Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish) | Dalyell, Tam |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Darling, Alistair |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Blair, Tony | Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l) |
| Boateng, Paul | Dewar, Donald |
| Boyes, Roland | Dixon, Don |
| Bradley, Keith | Dobson, Frank |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Doran, Frank |
| Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E) | Douglas, Dick |
| Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith) | Duffy, A. E. P. |
| Buchan, Norman | Dunnachie, Jimmy |
| Buckley, George J. | Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth |
| Caborn, Richard | Eastham, Ken |
| Callaghan, Jim | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley) | Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E) |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) |
| Canavan, Dennis | Fatchett, Derek |
| Cartwright, John | Faulds, Andrew |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n) | Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) |
| Fisher, Mark | Maxton, John |
| Flannery, Martin | Meacher, Michael |
| Flynn, Paul | Meale, Alan |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Michael, Alun |
| Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S) | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
| Foster, Derek | Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute) |
| Foulkes, George | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Fraser, John | Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) |
| Fyfe, Maria | Molyneaux, Rt Hon James |
| Galbraith, Sam | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Galloway, George | Morley, Elliott |
| Garrett, John (Norwich South) | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) |
| Garrett, Ted (Wallsend) | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| George, Bruce | Mullin, Chris |
| Godman, Dr Norman A. | Murphy, Paul |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Nellist, Dave |
| Graham, Thomas | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) | O'Brien, William |
| Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S) | O'Neill, Martin |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Parry, Robert |
| Grocott, Bruce | Patchett, Terry |
| Hardy, Peter | Pike, Peter L. |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Prescott, John |
| Henderson, Doug | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Hinchliffe, David | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Radice, Giles |
| Holland, Stuart | Redmond, Martin |
| Home Robertson, John | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn |
| Hood, Jimmy | Reid, Dr John |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Richardson, Jo |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) | Robertson, George |
| Hughes, John (Coventry NE) | Rogers, Allan |
| Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W) | Rooker, Jeff |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport E) | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Ruddock, Joan |
| Illsley, Eric | Salmond, Alex |
| Ingram, Adam | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Janner, Greville | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| John, Brynmor | Short, Clare |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W) | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Kennedy, Charles | Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E) |
| Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil | Soley, Clive |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Spearing, Nigel |
| Lamond, James | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Leighton, Ron | Strang, Gavin |
| Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Lewis, Terry | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Litherland, Robert | Turner, Dennis |
| Livsey, Richard | Vaz, Keith |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Wall, Pat |
| Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Wallace, James |
| Loyden, Eddie | Walley, Joan |
| McAllion, John | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Wareing, Robert N. |
| McCartney, Ian | Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N) |
| McKay, Allen (Barnsley West) | Williams, Rt Hon Alan |
| McKelvey, William | Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then) |
| McLeish, Henry | Wilson, Brian |
| McNamara, Kevin | Winnick, David |
| McTaggart, Bob | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| McWilliam, John | Worthington, Tony |
| Madden, Max | Wray, Jimmy |
| Maginnis, Ken | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Mahon, Mrs Alice | |
| Marek, Dr John | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Mr. Frank Haynes and Mr. Allen Adams. |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
§ Question agreed to.
§ Lords amendment No. 33 disagreed to.
§ Amendment ( a) made in lieu of Lords amendment No. 33 disagreed to.
§ Lords amendments Nos. 239 to 241, 29, 30A, 32, 36 to 41,44,45,47,49, 50,53 to 62,65,66,72,76 to 78, 78A, 79, 80, 266 to 270,87 and 271 to 276 agreed to. [Special Entry.]
1197§ Lords amendments Nos. 235 to 238, 242 to 265, 27, 28, 30, 31, 34, 35, 42, 43, 46, 48, 51, 52, 63, 64, 67 to 71,73 to 75, 81 to 86 and 277 agreed to.
§ Mr. McLoughlinOn a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. You will he aware of the great arguments earlier about whether we should have a guillotine. Having heard the Opposition argue so much against it, it seems strange that they have taken up so much time on Divisions. Could it be because today the Labour party announced changes in the rating system and is having great internal arguments which it does not want to bring into the Chamber?
§ "(2) The regulations may contain such provisions as are mentioned in subsection (3) below as regards any case which falls within a prescribed description and where—
- (a) as regards a hereditament or hereditaments the chargeable amount for a chargeable day falls to be determined under section 39, 41 or 46 above, and
- (b) the day falls within the financial year concerned.
§ (3) The provisions are that—
- (a) the chargeable amount shall be such as is found in accordance with prescribed rules, and
- (b) sections 39(4) to (6) and 40 above, sections 41(4) to (4B) and 42 above, or section 46(4) to (7) above (as the case may be) shall not apply.
§ (3A) A chargeable amount found in accordance with rules prescribed under this section may be the same as or different from what it would be apart from the regulations.
§ (3AA) Rules prescribed under this section may be framed by reference to such factors as the Secretary of State thinks fit."
§
Amendment (a) to the Lords amendment, in line 19, at end add
'having regard to the need to promote local employment'.
§ Lords amendments Nos. 90, 91, 195 and 196.
§ Mr. ChopeThese amendments are all concerned with the transitional protection that we should give to those businesses which would otherwise face large rates increases in 1990, resulting from revaluation or the introduction of the national non-domestic rate. The amendments discharge commitments given when the Bill was before the House. Before explaining their purpose and effects, I should put them in context.
There have been many predictions about the effects on business of a revaluation and introduction of the NNDR, and it is time to consider the facts. The first is that, as the Government are committed to raising broadly the same from the NNDR as is raised from business rates now, there is no question of a rates increase for business as a whole. The second is that the greater impact on rates bills in most areas will be that of revaluation. Revaluation will be necessary irrespective of the introduction of the NNDR, and it will be necessary whichever party is in office. On 3 March the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) confirmed in Committee that his party accepted the need for revaluation.
The third fact is that after 15 years without a revaluation rateable values are undoubtedly out of line with commercial rents and with the relative economic strengths of different sectors of the economy and regions. Many businesses, often in the most hard-pressed areas, are paying too much, which is why revaluation is expected to
§ Madam Deputy SpeakerThat is not a question for the Chair. The Standing Orders have not been breached in any way.