Commons Sitting of 29 April 1987

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PRIVATE BUSINESS
    HASTINGS BOROUGH COUNCIL BILL
    As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Oral Answers to Questions
  TRADE AND INDUSTRY

    Japan
    Mr. Cabornasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what progress he has achieved in securing wider access for British exports to the Japanese market.
    Mr. Simon Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is his latest estimate of the trade deficit with Japan; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. MacKenzieasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what progress he has achieved in securing wider access for British exports to the Japanese market.
    The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Paul Channon): In the year ending February 1987 the United Kingdom visible trade deficit with Japan was £3·8 billion. Some progress has been made. I am glad to say that in 1986 United Kingdom visible exports to Japan increased by 18 per cent. to £1·26 billion.
    Mr. Caborn: Will the Secretary of State tell the House what progress has been made since he dispatched his Minister to Tokyo a few weeks ago with "a timetable in his pocket for the opening up of the Tokyo stock exchange"? First, was a timetable negotiated there, and, if so, what was it? If it was not negotiated, will the Secretary of State use the powers that he now has under the Financial Services Act?
    The right hon. Gentleman has informed the House that the trade deficit with Japan was £3·8 billion, but in 1979 it was about £882 million. The position is worsening. Will the Secretary of State tell the House what action he will take to protect British industry?
    Mr. Channon: The hon. Gentleman's question relates to two points. On the general trading front, the figures are inflated by the present strength of the yen. The House must understand that the figures are changing. As the yen appreciates, in cash terms the figures look larger at the beginning. In terms of volume, that will change as the value of the yen changes. It is mildly encouraging that British exports increased last year by more than those of any other Western European country.
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    As for my hon. and learned Friend's visit to Tokyo—and the hon. Gentleman's question relates entirely to financial services—he did indeed lay down a timetable for the opening up of the Tokyo stock exchange. There will be further financial talks at the end of the next month, and we have made it clear that we will use our reciprocity powers under the Financial Services Act if we have to. My hon. and learned Friend has already achieved a considerable moving forward of the Japanese Government's timetable for opening up the Tokyo stock exchange, and he is to be thoroughly commended for that.
    Mr. Simon Hughes: Does the Secretary of State agree that there is now a real danger of a diversion of Japanese exports to the EEC following tariffs being imposed by the United States? Can he give some indication of the Government's attitude to the proposals of Commissioner De Clercq this week on behalf of the Commission, and of what measures he thinks we can take to ensure that our financial institutions have access into Japan and to deal with the anti-dumping problem? The Government have not yet made their position clear on that.
    Mr. Channon: On the anti-dumping point, we are strongly in favour of effective action to stop so-called screwdriver operations, and we shall support effective steps to that end. On the question of the Financial Services Act, I do not think that I can add much to my reply to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Central (Mr. Caborn). The problem relates to the Tokyo stock exchange, and I have described that. As for trade diversion because of the American tariffs, there is a real risk of that. Commissioner De Clercq and the British Government have been working very closely together on the problem. We strongly support the Commission's proposals. If goods are diverted from the United States to the European Community, we shall take action, I hope within the next two or three weeks.
    Mr. MacKenzie: Will the Secretary of State accept that those of us who represent constituencies where electrical appliances are manufactured are bitterly disappointed at the lack of progress on trading with Japan? It has gone beyond being a normal diplomatic incident. May I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman asks the Foreign Secretary formally to call in the Japanese ambassador and express to him in the strongest possible terms that we have completely lost our patience?
    Secondly, is there not a great deal to be said for taking a leaf out of the book of our French partners and treating Japanese goods in precisely the same way as the French Government have been doing for some time?
    Mr. Channon: I have some sympathy with what the right hon. Gentleman said in the first part of his question. The Japanese ambassador is well aware of the Government's views, and he is also aware of the views of the House of Commons. I shall, I hope, be taking more effective steps than that. I am to see the Ministry of International Trade and Industry Minister, who is coming to London. I shall be having a meeting with him tomorrow, and on that occasion I shall convey to him what the right hon. Gentleman has said. There has been some exaggeration of the extent of what the French have done in the last few days. They have imposed duties on frozen Coquille St. Jacques and on a Japanese fish dish. Whether that will strike terror into the heart of the Japanese Government must be open to doubt.
    Sir Peter Emery: Will my right hon. Friend make it absolutely clear that we are complaining about the unfairness of trade between Japan and this country? We want there to he full and fair trade, and we want it to be expanded. Will my right hon. Friend make it clear that that is the general view of the Government, and not that there should be an overall restriction of trade?
    Mr. Channon: I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. We want to open up the Japanese market to British goods, not to close the British market to Japanese goods. If we have to take action, either with our Community partners or, where we have to do so, on our own, that, though regrettable, may have to be done. I understand that the general aim in all parts of the House is to open up the Japanese market. I do not disguise from the House that that is extremely difficult, but some progress is being made.
    Mr. Tim Smith: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of the few notes of caution in an otherwise very encouraging quarterly survey that was published yesterday by the CBI relates to the prospect of a world trade war? Therefore, will my right hon. Friend proceed with great caution when considering possible measures against Japan? What is proposed could be very counterproductive. What we need are specifically targeted measures.
    Mr. Channon: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. If he is referring to financial services, we have a whole range of powers. If we took action under the reciprocity powers, we would choose specifically targeted measures that we thought were very much in British interests, in order to make sure that the action that we were taking helped Britain.
    As to the question of a world trade war, I could give many examples. We have a whole range of powers relating to financial services, of which the House is well aware, from the refusal of extra licences to the removal of institutions that are operating in this country. One could take any precise example between those two. If my hon. Friend cares to put down a question, I shall try to answer it. A world trade war would be a disaster for this country, which depends so much on exports. Incidentally, it would also be a disaster for the Japanese.
    Mr. Alan Howarth: Will my right hon. Friend take every opportunity that he can to point out to the supporters of protectionism, whether in Japan, the United States or the EEC, that protectionist measures damage consumer interests everywhere by restricting competition, by raising prices and by reducing the volume of trade? Does he agree that in an interdependent and fragile world economy we cannot afford to concede protectionist measures to producer interests and producer lobbies who are agitating in their own interest?
    Mr. Channon: In general, I agree with my hon. Friend. I emphasise what I said a few moments ago, that we want to open up the Japanese market to our goods, not to close our market to the Japanese. That is the aim that we are trying to pursue, with some success, but I do not disguise from the House that I should like it to be much more successful.
    Mr. Wrigglesworth: Is the Secretary of State aware that many of us are deeply cynical about why the Government started all this sabre rattling? We believe that it is probably
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    designed more to impress the British electorate than the Japanese Government. If the Government are genuine in their desire to stop the grossly unfair trade impediments that have been placed in Japan on products from this country, why did they not act earlier to try to help the Scotch whisky industry and many other industries that have been unable to sell their products in Japan in previous years and that have had precious little support from the Government?
    Mr. Channon: That is absolute nonsense, and I suspect that the hon. Gentleman knows it to be nonsense. No objective person would say that I have been sabre rattling this afternoon. That was a ridiculous remark. As to Scotch whisky, the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the Community is taking action. The GATT panel is meeting this week, and we shall receive a report later in the summer. If there is no satisfaction from the Japanese Government, we shall retaliate.
    Mr. John Townend: When considering taking action to force open the Japanese market to British goods and services, would it not be wiser to try to hit the Japanese where it really hurts, in respect of manufactured goods, rather than take action against Japanese financial houses, which will have an adverse affect on the City? If my right hon. Friend is going to quote the GATT regulations, can he explain why it seems all right for the American Congress to take action against Japanese manufactured imports?
    Mr. Channon: I am sure my hon. Friend is aware that when I was talking about financial services I was talking about trying to obtain reciprocity for our financial services in Japan, not of trying to use financial services powers for other matters. As for general trading matters, the Community as a whole must deal with them, and I think that that is well understood in the House. A great many activities are going on in the Community at present. There is the anti-dumping matter to which I referred. There is the prospect of a trade diversion because of the American actions. That matter is being actively pursued and action on it may take place shortly. There is also the action that we are taking in the Community to try to unbind the tariffs on a certain range of products as a result of Spanish and Portuguese accession to the Community.
    Mr. Hoyle: Does the Secretary of State agree that the Japanese ambassador and the Japanese Prime Minister have been well aware of the Government's view for many years, yet the gap gets wider and wider? Will the right hon. Gentleman say something to them about the way in which Scotch whisky is taxed out of the Japanese market, and about the fact that each of the 2,000 cars that Jaguar sells to Japan is inspected individually? Is it not time to stop talking, to take action and to say to the Japanese that we will apply exactly the same measures to their goods coming here as they apply to our goods going into Japan? That will mean something, rather than having this meaningless talk that goes on time after time from the Dispatch Box.
    Mr. Channon: The hon. Gentleman has chosen one or two rather poor examples. Jaguar is doing extremely well in the Japanese market. The hon. Gentleman has raised the question of cars, so he may be interested to know that Austin Rover is now the fastest growing exporter of cars to Japan and is beginning to do much better in that market. There is a long way to go. As to the question of

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    Scotch whisky, the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the Community has taken this matter to the GATT. The panel met yesterday and we will receive a report in a couple of months' time. We will either get satisfaction from the Japanese, or the Community will retaliate.
    Mr. Pollock: Apart from the GATT panel's deliberations on Scotch whisky, may I suggest to my right hon. Friend that it would also be encouraging to the Scotch whisky industry if, parallel with those deliberations, there was some direct representation by Her Majesty's Government to the Japanese Government about the need to end as quickly as possible their discriminatory tax regime against imports of that product?
    Mr. Channon: I shall be raising that matter tomorrow with the MITI Minister.
    Mr. Robin Cook: Does the Secretary of State agree that, given the remarkable success of the Japanese industry in miniaturising every electronic product, it is not credible for the Japanese Government to claim that they cannot admit any more British members to the Tokyo stock exchange because they cannot find space for them on the floor? Therefore, was the Secretary of State not surprised to read, after his colleague met the Japanese Minister for Finance, that one of the officials present told the press that he was gratified to hear that reports to withdraw the licence of Japanese banks had been exaggerated and that he assumed that such a horrible thing would not happen? When will the Government steel themselves to give the same protection to British business and British industry as the Japanese Government give to Japanese industry and Japanese business, and to act to halt the mounting deficit in our trade with Japan, which has shot up fourfold under this Government?
    Mr. Channon: I am very touched by the hon. Gentleman's deep concern for the British financial services industry and its desire to be part of the Tokyo stock exchange. I agree with him, and that is why it is so encouraging that, as a result of my hon. and learned Friend's visit, the timetable for entry into the Tokyo stock exchange has already been improved. When my hon. and learned Friend was there he set down a clear timetable and make it perfectly clear that, if it is not met, we shall retaliate. No doubt the House will keep us up to the mark.
    As to the general trading front, I have already described the action that we are taking within the Community. There is a great deal of frustration, not only in this country, but in the rest of the European Community. We shall pursue this matter. It will not go as fast as all hon. Members would like, and there is no point pretending that it will, but some progress is being made.

    Invisible Exports
    Mr. Richard Pageasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the level of the United Kingdom's trade in invisible exports.
    The Minister for Trade (Mr. Alan Clark): The net earnings of the United Kingdom from all forms of invisible transactions amounted to £7·2 billion last year. It is likely that earnings continued at broadly the same rate, £600 million a month, in the first quarter of 1987, and further growth is expected during the rest of this year.
    Mr. Page: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is it not true that a large proportion of that sum is due to
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    overseas investment earnings? If so, do not those huge figures give the lie to the allegation that North sea oil revenues are being squandered?
    Mr. Clark: My hon. Friend is entirely right. The balance of earnings on overseas investments rose by well over £1 billion last year. The great advantage of overseas investment income is that it allows the United Kingdom to participate in world expansion trends and offers a useful hedge against foreign currency fluctuations.
    Mr. Gregory: Will my hon. Friend continue to hold urgent discussions with my right hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster General so that any barriers to trade, particularly in the important industry of tourism, are removed? Clearly, a number of companies are holding back from investing in this country because they note that the Labour party continues to attack tourism as jobs for ice cream salesmen and Mickey Mouse jobs. Will my hon. Friend confirm that there is nothing remotely true in that, and that tourism is the fastest growth industry in Britain?
    Mr. Clark: I have constant consultations with my hon. and learned Friend the Paymaster General. Alas, my hon. Friend's point is all too true. The Labour party continually regards invisible earnings as some kind of immoral earnings, to which any kind of reference is somehow demeaning.

    Car Sales
    Mr. Gerald Howarthasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what proportion of new cars sold in the United Kingdom are imported; and how this compares with 1986.
    The Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Mr. Giles Shaw): Imports accounted for 49·4 per cent. of the United Kingdom car market in the first quarter of 1987, as against 56 per cent. for 1986 as a whole. This is a welcome change in trend and powerful evidence of the appeal of British products.
    Mr. Howarth: Those figures are welcome. I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the fact that Austin Rover has had its best export figures for seven years. As the buyers in Spain, Japan and the United States are demonstrating their confidence in British products, as shown by record sales to those countries, does my hon. Friend agree that the British people could ably demonstrate their concern about unemployment by ensuring that they seek wherever possible to buy British motor cars and other British products?
    Mr. Shaw: I entirely endorse my hon. Friend's remarks and his comments on the substantially improved export performance of the Rover Group. The Rover Group's share of the market in the first quarter of 1987 was 16·5 per cent. This shows welcome growth compared with the whole of 1986, when the share was substantially lower. There is plenty of room to demonstrate that, in terms of consumer choice, the Rover Group's products are beginning to meet demand.
    Mr. Terry Davis: For the purpose of the figures on imports, if a car is designed in Japan, built with Japanese components and has a Japanese badge on the front but is screwed together in this country, does the Minister regard it as a British car, or as a Japanese car?
    Mr. Shaw: As the hon. Gentleman knows very well, if the investment is made within this country and the vehicle is put together in a development or assisted area, there should be 60 per cent. of local sourcing for it to qualify as a European product.
    Mr. Roger King: Does my hon. Friend agree that one way to stem the tide of imports is to produce the sort of cars that the British public want? Is it not, therefore, good news that the Rover Group and Honda have agreed to proceed with the new R8 range of cars, using the best expertise from both countries to build a range of cars which we hope will establish a sound substantial market share within the European market within a short time? Is this not a good sign of job security at Longbridge in particular, which will have the task of building this good range of cars?
    Mr. Shaw: My hon. Friend is right and, as he knows, the developments with the Honda company continue to improve. This is the fourth occasion on which there has been a joint agreement to manufacture a motor car which has been jointly developed. From that point of view, the position of the Rover Group in relation to Honda is steadily improving, to the benefit of the workers in both companies.

    Industrial Performance
    Mr. Greg Knightasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he last met officers of the Confederation of British Industry to discuss the performance of British industry.
    Mr. Channon: I last met officers of the CBI at the meeting of the National Economic Development Council on 1 April. The performance of the economy, including industry, was among the matters discussed.
    Mr. Knight: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the results of the latest CBI survey, which were announced yesterday, which show that manufacturing output in Britain is expected to rise by well over 3 per cent. this year—an excellent figure — and that companies are now more optimistic about future orders than they have been at any time in the last 10 years? Will my right hon. Friend point out to the officers of the CBI that those results testify to the success of Government policies and are good news not only for British industry but for Britain?
    Mr. Channon: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I hardly need to point out to anyone—it is perfectly obvious to everyone in the country—that the success and prospects for British industry are better now than they have been for probably a generation. The survey from which my hon. Friend quoted is the most optimistic survey that the CBI has ever produced since it started to keep such records. I believe that manufacturing output will do extremely well this year, as will manufacturing exports, and the forecast for British industry is extremely good.
    Mr. Loyden: Is the Secretary of State aware that the CBI has been critical of the amount of investment that has taken place in research and development, which is one of the reasons why British industry has failed in many areas?
    Mr. Channon: The CBI, if it is critical about research and development, is certainly not critical about anything else. We see the survey as a great success, and we know how successful British industry is. As for research and
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    development, certainly no one can level that criticism at my budget, which has seen a total transformation. Most of the money that used to be spent on propping up loss-making nationalised industries is now being spent on research and development.
    Mr. Yeo: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, in an expanding economy, successful employers need to be able to attract labour from unsuccessful employers? Does he agree also that if the SDP proposals for statutory pay controls were introduced, this would stultify the economy and restrain growth?
    Mr. Channon: Yes, I am sure that that is absolutely right. It will be interesting to have the proposals explained to us in greater detail. I suspect that they will prove equally unconvincing.
    Mr. John Smith: If the Secretary of State pays attention to results rather than to projected surveys, will he confirm that since 1979 manufacturing output is down by 4 per cent., that investment in manufacturing industry is down by 17 per cent., and that British industrial capacity has been reduced by 20 per cent.? Is that an advertisement for the success of Government policies over two terms?
    Mr. Channon: Britain's manufacturing output has grown for six successive years. The volume of manufacturing output is 14 per cent. higher than it was in the depths of the recession. The growth of manufacturing output showed a sharp spurt in the second half of last year. Outside forecasters agree with the Government in predicting strong growth in manufacturing output in Britain throughout 1987. We expect it to expand 4 per cent. faster than the rest of the economy, and faster than in any year since 1973.

    Regional Strategy
    Mr. Meadowcroftasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he next intends to meet the officers of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce to discuss the impact of the Government's regional strategy.
    Mr. Giles Shaw: My right hon. Friend has no current plans for a meeting with the association specifically to discuss the impact of the Government's regional strategy.
    Mr. Meadowcroft: Surely the Minister, with his background, is aware that chambers of commerce in Yorkshire and Humberside are concerned about the wider implications of regional policy, including, for instance, assistance under the Industrial Development Act 1985. Is the Minister aware that the 1984 report showed that one quarter of all assistance went to the south-east? In the micro-electronics industry, for instance, only one project in Yorkshire and Humberside was supported, compared with 28 in the south-east. Surely the Minister has a responsibility to try to redress such an imbalance.
    Mr. Shaw: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the redrawing of the assisted area map has benefited the northern regions particularly. He will know that most assisted areas are now within that part of the country which he and I represent. He will also know that the performance of local industries and companies in Yorkshire and Humberside has shown a dramatic improvement. The regional report supplied by the Association of British Chambers of Commerce states:

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    "Yorkshire and Humberside: After a year of relatively poor results the figures for the final quarter of 1986 are comprehensively the best results seen for some time. The balance figures for domestic orders in manufacturing have more than trebled, and those for domestic deliveries are better still. Export performance too is significantly improved and employment levels and expectations are similarly encouraging."
    That is the true position of industry in the region.
    Sir Alex Fletcher: In considering the impact of regional policy, has my hon. Friend noticed that manufacturing productivity in Scotland is well above the United Kingdom average, that manufacturing exports per employee in Scotland are running at 30 per cent. above the United Kingdom level, and that the latest GDP and personal disposable income figures put Scotland in the top three of the 11 United Kingdom planning regions? Do not these excellent results shame those who constantly talk Scotland down?
    Mr. Shaw: I am delighted to hear such a robust defence from my hon. Friend of the performance of industry in Scotland. It is a powerful fact that improved competitiveness and productivity are countrywide. That is the surest way to improve sales, profits and employment.
    Mr. Pike: Are the chambers of commerce in the north-west region more concerned than the Government about the decline of manufacturing industries, which has meant a loss of 30 per cent. of the jobs in that sector in a region that is heavily dependent on manufacturing jobs? How much longer can we continue to trade with such a massive deficit budget on manufacturing industry?
    Mr. Shaw: I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern about the pattern in the north-west and I concede that regions have different patterns of performance. However, the Association of British Chambers of Commerce report for the Greater Manchester area states:
    "After a less worrying third quarter than in certain other regions the improvement in the fourth quarter is very pronounced, strongly positive for home and export orders".
    I suggest that there is now an improving trend even in the north-west.
    Mr. Hind: Is my hon. Friend aware of the quiet way in which the new post-1984 regional development grant and regional selective assistance programme is working? In the north-west and in my constituency of Lancashire, West, there have been 52 applications for such grant in the past year resulting in £3·2 million investment, which has encouraged industry to invest and has created 600 jobs in my constituency. Surely that is the way that regional development should continue, and I wish my hon. Friend every success and long may it continue.
    Mr. Shaw: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. He will be equally aware that, with the tailored system of regional support, the support is really reaching those particular areas and industries that need it.

    Manufacturing Industry
    Mr. Matthew Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is his latest estimate of the level of import penetration in the manufacturing sector.
    Mr. Alan Clark: For the year 1986, imports of manufactured products are estimated to have accounted for 34½per cent. of United Kingdom home demand.
    Mr. Taylor: Does the Secretary of State agree that an import penetration level for the manufacturing sector of nearly one third suggests that we are not as competitive as the Government claim in manufacturing, a view surely confirmed by the record deficit on manufacturing forecast in the Budget?
    Mr. Clark: In fact, the hon. Gentleman is somewhat mistaken. Over half that total is accounted for by the import of material, either semi-finished, intermediate or capital, necessary for British manufacturing industry, for jobs and production at home. With regard to the pessimistic forecast to which the hon. Gentleman drew attention, in the final quarter of last year exports were up 6·5 per cent. and imports were up only 3·5 per cent. For the period December 1986 to February 1987, exports were up 2 per cent. and imports were actually down 3 per cent.
    Mr. Fallon: Is there not rather a lot of British hypocrisy in the talk about retaliation against imports when the European industrial tariff is actually higher than the Japanese industrial tariff and when so much of the European public sector is closed to Japanese or American penetration? Is it not rather odd to be demanding access for Cable and Wireless to the Japanese market, when the Japanese are not allowed into our market?
    Mr. Clark: I do not know how appropriate it would be for me to be tempted to return to the subject of Japanese-United Kingdom trade on a question that does not actually relate to that topic. However, it has always been my view that the obstruction to our exports to Japan and the need to open up that market—to which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State drew attention earlier—arises not so much from tariffs, but from the various obstructive devices that the Japanese interpose between our manufacturers and fair and proper access to their domestic market.
    Mr. Winnick: Do the Government recognise the tremendous continuing damage in many parts of the country, certainly in the west midlands, resulting from the high level of import penetration? Has the Minister abandoned the views that he used to advocate as a Back Bencher when he sought adequate protection for the British manufacturing industry? Has he finished with those views?
    Mr. Clark: I am quite ready to let hon. Members assess what they think my views are from what I say. The level of import penetration which the hon. Member deplores, is, as I have said frequently, not within the control of the Government; it is the consequence of a variety of individual and corporate choices that are made seeking value and quality for money.
    Mr. Richard Page: Does my hon. Friend agree that the high import figure shows that plenty of opportunities exist for British manufacturers if they care to take them? Will he support this by holding more "Better made in Britain" exhibitions?
    Mr. Clark: Yes, what my hon. Friend says is perfectly right. We support "Better made in Britain" exhibitions. We are giving a research grant to the "Think British" campaign, and public purchasing is over 95 per cent. British sourced.
    Mr. John Smith: Does the Minister understand that the full implication of one of his previous answers is that the

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    Government seem to have no responsibility for our balance of trade in manufactured goods? Is he aware that it was only under this Government that in 1983, for the first time, we had a balance of trade deficit in manufactured goods? Given that the deficit was nearly £6 billion last year and will be £8 billion this year, have the Government the remotest idea how this dreadful imbalance can be corrected?
    Mr. Clark: Considering that the right hon. and learned Gentleman had the answer less than two minutes ago, presumably he is choosing deliberately to misrepresent what I said. The Government have no responsibility for the large and widely diffused mass of individual and corporate choices which account for the present level of import penetration. I said no more than that. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman cares to tell us what the Labour party would do to direct choice, we shall be interested to hear it.

    Steel Industry
    Mr. Strangasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if, when he next meets the chairman of the British Steel Corporation, he will raise the future of the five integrated plants; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Giles Shaw: The strategy agreed in 1985, which was based on the continued operation of all five integrated works for at least three years, remains firmly in place. Decisions on a strategy thereafter must wait until a clearer picture has emerged of market developments, particulary within the EEC.
    Mr. Strang: Will the Minister recognise that the Ravenscraig plan is fundamental to Scotland's long-term industrial future? Is he aware of the damage that recent speculation has done to confidence in the plant's long term future? Will he accept that the commitment to maintain steelmaking until August 1988 is no longer adequate? May we have a long-term commitment from the Government?
    Mr. Shaw: I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern. He will be aware that I, in company with my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the Member for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale (Mr. Lang), who has responsibility for industry in Scotland, visited the Ravenscraig plant not long ago and had discussions with management and trade union representatives. I made it clear to them at that time that the five integrated sites policy will remain in place and cannot be altered until we have assessed the position nearer the date. The Ravenscraig plant today is working above the planned output in all areas, with some additional weekend work in the strip mill. This is a very good performance and a powerful indication that the proposals are working well at the British Steel Corporation.
    Mr. Hickmet: As my hon. Friend knows, the British Steel Corporation is on target to make a profit approaching £200 million this year. Will he confirm that the future of the five integrated plants depends upon commercial success? If jobs in the industry, and the industry itself, are to be preserved, it is essential that the corporation remains commercially successful. Does he agree that any judgment on the future of those plants—my hon. Friend will know that the plant in my
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    constituency is the most successful within the British Steel Corporation — must depend upon commercial success. profitability, viability, quality and reliability?
    Mr. Shaw: I have to endorse wholly what my hon. Friend said. The crucial factor that remains to be resolved, having agreed that the corporation is now performing with extreme success in virtually every activity, is that the market for steel products should be receptive and buoyant.
    Mr. Roy Hughes: Does the Minister appreciate the need to build long-term stability and confidence in the industry and that that can best be done with assurance from the Government about the future ownership and control? Does he further appreciate that the present policies seem to be based on the premise that if steel is produced efficiently, at some future date the industry will be flogged off to the highest bidder?
    Mr. Shaw: The hon. Gentleman may have his own views about that, but the fact undoubtedly remains that the corporation should be in the private sector. That is where, ultimately, the Government intend to place it. The reason for that is simple — it will then be able to demonstrate beyond doubt, without any taxpayers' money being put at risk, that it can survive from profits, competition and productivity.
    Mr. Dickens: Does my hon. Friend agree that when the Conservative Government returned to power in 1979 British Steel was in a very sad way? It was overmanned, uncompetitive and could not win contracts against the rest of Europe, or indeed, the world. Today it is a very different story, is it not? We are now competitive. We can compete with anybody. Had it not been for the Government's help and advice, there may not have been a British Steel Corporation today.
    Mr. Shaw: My hon. Friend is right. It was the decisive way in which the Government tackled the problems associated with the manufacturing and marketing of steel products that enabled the corporation to restructure and to survive during the biggest steel crisis in Europe, which gave rise to the original strategy decisions in 1982 and to the decision in 1985, which is still in place.
    Mr. Williams: The Minister has just confirmed his party's commitment to the privatisation of this sector of the steel industry, but will he also confirm that the previous chairman of BSC said that, regardless of productivity and profitability improvement, the privatisation of this sector could be achieved only if one of the five plants was closed?
    Mr. Shaw: The right hon. Gentleman will also know that over a considerable period there have been discussions with various BSC chairmen on the restructuring of the corporation. He will know that there were several discussions of that kind in 1982 and in 1985. The corporation is at the moment looking at plans for privatisation and the Government are taking advice from merchant banks. When all the advice is available, we shall take a view on how privatisation can best be achieved.
    Mr. Wilson: Since the top management of British Steel is notoriously anti-Ravenscraig and anti-Scottish, what guarantee will the Minister give that, in the event of privatisation, the first act of the newly privatised corporation will not be to close Ravenscraig steelworks and thus take away Scotland's indigenous steel industry?
    Mr. Shaw: The hon. Gentleman must take it from me that the five integrated site policy was agreed with the corporation in 1982 and 1985. There has been a consistent campaign by some Scottish representatives who seek to suggest that the corporation is not supportive of the five integrated site strategy. It is supportive of it, and it is that strategy that has brought the corporation to a highly enviable position within the EEC.

    Industrial Performance
    Mr. Forthasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what are the latest figures for the annual turnover of British industry.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. John Butcher): The output index for manufacturing industry, excluding the energy and the service sector, was 104·6 in 1986, based on 1980 equal to 100. Since the trough of the recession in 1981, manufacturing output has grown impressively and is now over 15 per cent. higher. The turnover of manufacturing industry in 1985 was £225 billion in current prices.
    Mr. Forth: Does my hon. Friend agree that those good figures, together with the CBI report that we have just received, is a tribute not only to the framework and background that the Government have provided for the industrial sector, but to management and work force within our industry, which have combined to bring Britain to the position where it can now compete right across the industrial sector with the best that the world can offer? Does that not give us enormous hope for the future in terms of the profitability of British industry and secure jobs for our work people?
    Mr. Butcher: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am sure that he will celebrate with me the fact Britain is now enjoying a top position in productivity and competitiveness—the best position that we have been in for two decades. As he is a west midlands Member, I am sure that he will also celebrate with me the fact that the manufacturing sector is now spearheading our industrial recovery and that the projected 4 per cent. growth in manufacturing will be the fastest rate of growth since 1973.
    Mr. Wrigglesworth: Instead of celebrating, will the Minister look at the CBI survey, in which he will find that only 15 per cent. of the companies in that survey regarded their fixed plant as adequate to the demands on them, and that 25 per cent. of companies were unable to meet demand because of a lack of fixed capacity? Is that not an inevitable consequence of the destruction that occurred in manufacturing industry during the early years of the Government's period of office, and does it not reflect on the lack of investment in fixed plant in recent years?
    Mr. Butcher: Alliance spokesmen should get involved in a different form of research. Industrialists tell me, day in and day out, that the worst possible outcome in business and industrial terms with regard to confidence, exchange rates and interest rates would be a hung Parliament. To that extent one can say that alliance spokesmen are arguing for uncertainty and the undermining of our economy.
    Mr. Latham: Following the Budget and three cuts in interest rates since early March, are not all the jigsaw
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    pieces now in place for the sustained growth of British industry? Should not any lingering political uncertainties have been satisfactorily dispelled by the middle of June?
    Mr. Butcher: If we can keep current trends going into the 1990s, talk of a British industrial renaissance would not be an exaggeration. We have a magnificent opportunity and I am sure that the electorate will not throw it away.

    Insider Dealing
    Mrs. Clwydasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what action he has taken on information so far received from the inspectors he has appointed to inquire into insider dealing at the Department of Trade and Industry.
    Mr. Howard: I have received no information from the inspectors which calls for action on my part. Any question of prosecution in this case would be a matter for the Director of Public Prosecutions, who is being kept informed of the progress of the inspection.
    Mrs. Clwyd: The Government are not convincing the public that everything is now in order — quite the contrary. Surely we need the high-profile techniques of the United States regulatory authorities, which send shivers down the spines of those who are brought in for questioning, and not polite phone calls from DTI inspectors? Criminologists have shown that arrest has the greatest impact on white-collar criminals, not the softly-softly approach of the Government and the DTI.
    Mr. Howard: The powers of the Securities and Exchange Commission to investigate insider dealing are less than those that are available to our investigators, and it is noteworthy that during the passage of the Financial Services Act no Opposition Member suggested a single additional power to investigate insider dealing over and above those that are contained in the Act, which are being used.
    Mr. Nelson: Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that not only were the Government responsible for making insider deaing a criminal offence and enhancing the powers of investigation under successive legislation, but that, considering the volume of highly commercial confidential information that passes over the desks of officials in the Department of Trade and Industry, we are remarkably fortunate in this country in enjoying a high degree of integrity among officials, which has become evident over recent years?
    Mr. Howard: I very much agree with my hon. Friend's observations, which I greatly welcome.
    Mr. Robin Cook: Did the Minister note last month's statement by Tesco that it is bringing forward its hid for Hillards because insider dealing had shoved up the price of the shares of Hillards by one quarter in the preceding month? How do the Government hope to stop these scandals in the City if they cannot bring to book the insider dealers in their own Department?
    Mr. Howard: The hon. Gentleman should await the outcome of the inspection to which I earlier referred before he leaps to such unwarranted conclusions. If there is any information arising out of the other matter to which he

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    referred that warrants consideration in the Department it will receive that consideration and any appropriate actions will be taken.

    Company Takeovers (Concert Parties)
    Mr. Parkasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many prosecutions have been undertaken since 1979 under part VI of the Companies Act for the organisation of a concert party.
    Mr. Howard: None, Sir.
    Mr. Park: In view of the conclusion of the Select Committee on Trade and Industry that there was almost certainly a concert party in operation at Westland, will the Minister reconsider the decision not to hold an inquiry? Is an inquiry not made even more necessary by the strange fact that while one member of the concert party — Dreyfus of Switzerland — admits that its agents were agents for Lazards, which was the financial adviser to Westland, Lazards do not admit this commercial connection?
    Mr. Howard: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced last year that he had decided not to appoint inspectors into this matter, and no new information has emerged to warrant changing that decision. The hon. Gentleman has completely misunderstood the nature of the information to which he has referred. All that that information amounts to is the fact that occasionally the Swiss bank concerned transacts business in London through Hill Samuel, the Midland bank or Lazard Brothers. This information was published in the Bankers Almanac and Year Book over a number of years, and it is of no relevance to the matters to which the hon. Gentleman has referred.
    Sir Alex Fletcher: When does my hon. and learned Friend expect to receive the report of the inspectors who are examining the Guinness affair?
    Mr. Willie W. Hamilton: After the election.
    Mr. Howard: The inspectors examining Guinness plc are carrying out their investigations with considerable expedition and are making good progress. However, I cannot give a specific date as to when their report will be available.
    Mr. Robin Cook: Did the Government know about the relationship between Lazards and Dreyfus, and if so, why did the Secretary of State or his Ministers not inform the Select Committee on any of the three occasions when they gave evidence?
    Mr. Howard: For the reason I gave a moment ago, if the hon. Gentleman had but listened, the information to which he has referred is of absolutely no relevance to this matter.

    Overdrafts (Credit Charge Advertisements)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will consult the chairmen of the clearing banks and the Bank of England concerning the advertising of credit charges on overdrafts.
    Mr. Howard: The exemption of bank overdrafts from the full documentation requirement of the Consumer Credit Act serves the interests of both banks and their
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    customers. However, my hon. Friend the Minister for Trade told the hon. and learned Gentleman on 10 April that it might be appropriate for banks to provide more information to consumers about credit charges on overdrafts, and my officials are consulting banks and the Office of Fair Trading on this matter.
    Mr. Janner: I welcome some movement in the direction of sanity. However, do the Government not recognise that the combination of the banks' right to charge whatever interest they please on what they choose to call unauthorised overdrafts, and the banks having no duty whatever to tell people what interest will be charged on such overdrafts, is a scandalous rip-off.) It is not enough simply to say that the officials are having consultations with the banks. What steps, if any, do the Government propose to take to stop this practice?
    Mr. Howard: My hon. Friend the Minister for Trade explained in full in the debate on 10 April the reason why further action of the kind that the hon. and learned Gentleman thinks appropriate would not be in the interest of either the banks or their customers. We are seeing what can be done to make more information available.
    Mr. Peter Bruinvels: While I should not like to encourage the Government to interfere in any private arrangements over overdrafts, should not my hon. and learned Friend at least encourage all the credit card companies to publish the overdraft charges and the APR available so that at least my constituents and those of any other Member can shop around? There is no question of being ripped-off, but at least customers should be allowed to shop around.
    Mr. Howard: That information is available to consumers.
    Mr. Hardy: Will the Minister confirm that the burden of debt facing millions of households is not only up on an astonishingly high level but is increasing at an extraordinary pace? Are the Government to continue their lack of concern about this serious matter?
    Mr. Howard: I cannot see how this arises out of a question on charges on overdrafts. However, the debts to which the hon. Gentleman referred are backed by increasing assets.
    Mr. Nelson: May I put it to my hon. and learned Friend that there is a legitimate subject of concern in the questions raised today? Some of the average rates of interest charged both on overdrafts and on credit card deficit balances amount to usury, if not exploitation, given that there has been a further fall in base rate today to 9·5 per cent. and we may be looking forward to a further fall. This is not a matter for the Government to get involved in private arrangements, but I do think that they could send some signals to the private sector.
    Mr. Howard: The only real point of concern is whether information is given to consumers to enable them to make properly informed decisions. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 ensures that that information is available. Overdrafts that have not been previously agreed are a special case and, for the reasons that were explained in the Adjournment debate to which I referred earlier, I am asking the banks to consider what further information can be made available to their customers.

    Research and Development
    Mr. Allen McKayasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the current extent of research and development funding by his Department.
    The Minister for Information Technology (Mr. Geoffrey Pattie): In the current financial year my Department expects to spend £412 million on support for research and development, which is a threefold increase on the expenditure level of the Labour Government.
    Mr. McKay: Irrespective of those figures, is the Minister aware that, since 1981, the number of people who work in research and development has fallen by more than 20 per cent.? Within the figure for research and development there has been an increase in military research and development and that suggests a serious decline in industrial research and development. If the Minister is aware of that, should he not take steps to obviate that balance by putting more money into industrial research and development? That would make sure that, when the oil production declines, we are in a position to become a competitive nation.
    Mr. Pattie: Yes, the hon. Gentleman is right to say that fewer people were employed in research and development in 1985 than in 1983. Between those two years it is also true to say that there was an increase in research and development in the civil sector of 16 per cent. I believe that the other part of the hon. Gentleman's question is more interesting, as it suggests that the Government, through their expenditure levels, can positively encourage industry to do the thing that only industry can decide to do—to commit the requisite levels of research and development funding to improve industry's commercial prospects.
    Mr. Forman: While congratulating the Government and my right hon. Friend's Department on tripling the research and development expenditure since the time of the Labour Government, may I ask my right hon. Friend to recognise that the important point is to get the private sector to increase its contribution to research and development on a year-on-year basis? Furthermore, is there not a role for my right hon. Friend's Department to support applications for the introduction of new technologies to existing industrial and manufacturing processes?
    Mr. Pattie: Yes, indeed, and that is why we have an extensive, advanced manufacturing technology programme and why we introduced the LINK programme in December of last year. That is a £420 million programme which, over five years, is to be targeted at precisely the area raised by my hon. Friend. The Government and industry, in partnership on a 50–50 basis, will improve what I might call the exploitation factor—taking a research and development idea and pushing it forward into a marketable product.
    Dr. Bray: Now that the Minister is the sole obstacle to agreement on the European framework programme, and in view of the projected cuts in DTI research and development expenditure over the next few years, the lack of any growth of research and development in industry since 1981, and a 10 per cent. fall in research and development in the electronics industry between 1983 and
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    1985, is the Minister aware that, under the Government's leadership, Britain has become the sluggard of Europe with regard to research and development?
    Mr. Pattie: If we are the sluggard of Europe, I do not know what Europe would have made of us in 1979, when the Labour Government went out of office. At that time there was an expenditure level precisely three times below our current expenditure level.
    If I am single-handedly holding up the European research and development, I am doing so because of my belief in the correct quality of programmes. I do not see why we should be relentlessly driven down a particular path simply to appease and accommodate the types of programmes for which we believe there is no competitive future for the rest of Europe.

    Airbus
    Mr. Sternasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he is yet able to announce his decision on the launch-aid applications by British Aerospace plc in respect of the A330 and A340 Airbuses.
    Mr. Michieasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on Government support for Airbus.
    Mr. Pattie: Discussions with British Aerospace about its combined application for launch aid in respect of the Airbus A330 and A340 projects are continuing. We aim to reach a decision as soon as possible and an announcement to the House will be made thereafter.
    Mr. Stern: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Can he say how long he expects discussions to continue before an announcement is made? Can he also confirm the Government's support in principle for extensions to the Airbus range and assistance with funding?
    Mr. Pattie: First, I wish to recognise the considerable role that my hon. Friend has played on behalf of his constituents, who have British Aerospace and Rolls-Royce interests. The House will appreciate that the first decision that had to be taken was whether the Government believed that this project was worthy of support. That decision has been taken and we are now discussing with British Aerospace the precise level and amount of that support in a constructive and harmonious atmosphere. I am confident that we shall be able to reach agreement in the quite near future.
    Mr. Michie: I am glad that the Government have finally realised the importance of such a project. Does the Minister realise that delay means a loss of orders? The longer the delay, the more orders may be lost. Has he any idea what orders have been lost up to the present?
    Mr. Pattie: There is no question of orders being lost at present, because the aircraft concerned in the question have not yet been formally launched. That decision has not been finally taken by the Airbus consortium. What is in issue here is the level of support that will be necessary to maintain the involvement of British Aerospace in a consortium which the Government believe is very important to the health and wellbeing of the aerospace industry, not only in the United Kingdom, but in Europe.

Points of Order
3.31 pm
Mr. Max Madden: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to raise a point of order of which I have given you notice. When matters concerning Members and business interests have been raised with you in the past, you have suggested that representations should be made to the Committee of Selection. I ask you to consider whether such advice is any longer sound as only two members of the Committee of Selection do not hold outside business interests. Indeed, the Chairman of the Committee, the hon. Member for Shipley (Sir M. Fox) holds seven directorships, five consultancies, including a consultancy with Alcrafield Ltd.—
Mr. Speaker: Order. What is the point of order for me?
Mr. Madden: —including a consultancy with Alcrafield Ltd. —[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. All Members' interests are registered. I do not think it is necessary for the hon. Gentleman to read them out.
Mr. Madden: May I ask two specific questions? To whom can Members make representations urging that members of the Committee of Selection should be required not to hold outside business interests? Secondly, do you not agree, Mr. Speaker, that until such a requirement is introduced, suspicion that commercial interests exert influence in the House, including the selection of Members to Standing Committees, will remain? Will you also understand that concern will continue—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. We have a very busy day ahead of us.
Mr. Madden: I did give notice to the hon. Member for Shipley, and I am—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The point of order is to me. I want the hon. Gentleman to come to the point.
Mr. Madden: I wanted to make clear that I had given notice to the hon. Member concerned.
I have asked you two specific questions, Mr. Speaker. I wish to remind you and the House that this will remain of concern to hon. Members and to the public until we take effective action to ensure that private business interests do not exert influence in the House or on the selection of Members to Standing Committees. I ask you to reflect again—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman gave me notice of his question. I am ready with an answer straightaway. He is surely not suggesting that Mr. Speaker should be responsible for nominating Members to Select Committees. If the hon. Gentleman has any complaint to make, the Select Committee on Members' Interests exists to deal with complaints of that kind. The hon. Gentleman should direct his complaints to that Committee, not to me.
Mr. Eric Forth (Mid-Worcestershire): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If this sort of matter is worthy of further consideration, which I gather you doubt—and I share your doubt — will you assure the House that consideration will also be given, for example, to trade union sponsorship of Labour Members of Parliament and the influence that that has on their voting behaviour?
Mr. Speaker: Many hon. Members have a background of some kind or other in business or industry. Those interests are required to be registered. If hon. Members have complaints about individual Members, they should take them up with the Select Committee concerned.
Mr. Geoffrey Dickens: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: I do not think it will help.
Mr. Dickens: On a different point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that in recent times extradition orders have failed to be enacted because of bad drafting. I could not give you notice of my question, Mr. Speaker, but it has become common knowledge that the train robber, Ronald Biggs, who has 28 years still to serve of a sentence given in a British court—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Amongst my many responsibilities I have no responsibility for train robbers. I do not think that I can help.
Mr. Dickens: May I finish?
Mr. Speaker: I think not. I have heard the hon. Gentleman's point of order, and I cannot help him further.
Mr. Ron Lewis: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: I will hear the hon. Gentleman's point of order, provided that it does not go back to what he said the other day.
Mr. Lewis: Further to the point of order—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I heard the hon. Gentleman's point of order on the same subject the other day. I have nothing further to add to what I said then or now.
Mr. Lewis rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: I want to raise the question of Privy Councillor terms and how they relate to our proceedings. As I understand it, Privy Councillors are not necessarily members of Government—indeed, they include Opposition Members. Yesterday, at a press conference, Mr. Bernard Ingham was able to give a briefing to journalists in Downing street, drawing on information that was given to the Prime Minister on Privy Councillor terms when she was Leader of the Opposition. The right hon. Lady was able to acquire that information because she had been selected as a member of the Opposition, not as a member of Government, for appointment as a Privy Councillor. Would you, Mr. Speaker, deprecate a practice whereby—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have heard enough. I do not have any responsibility for press officers in Downing street, either.
Mr. Tony Marlow: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Points of Order

  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. With the permission of the House I shall put together the two motions relating to the statutory instruments.
  Ordered,

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  That the draft Grants by Local Housing Authorities (Appropriate Percentage and Exchequer Contributions) Order 1987 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.
  That the Black Country Development Corporation (Area and Constitution) Order 1987 he referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c. — [Mr. Lightbown]
  Mr. Marlow: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: I think that the hon. Gentleman has lost his chance.

Directly Elected Neighbourhood Councils
3.39 pm
Mr. David Alton: I beg to move,
That leave to given to bring in a Bill to give residents of British cities the right to establish directly elected neighbourhood councils and to make consequential provision for their constitution and resources.
The Bill will facilitate the process of parish review which was envisaged in the Local Government Act 1972. It will remove from city councils the sole responsibility of initiating the parish or neighbourhood review procedure. It will give residents the right to petition their district council to initiate the review and it will provide for a fixed timetable with which district councils must comply in initiating parish reviews under their present powers.
The legislation is designed to boost the urban parish movement. After the reorganisation of local government in 1974, urban areas in England were left without the degree of representation or participation that was adequate to secure effective and convenient local government. The Local Government Act 1972 established larger local authorities and remoter local government. Fortunately, the Act also provided the means to remedy the position—the parish review. But, sadly, the public, and even Members of Parliament, may not be familiar with this term or with the enabling part of the legislation.
The Local Government Act states that assessments of the establishment of new parishes are determined by the aptitude of such parishes to secure "effective and convenient" local government. Such assessments must be made initially by the district council, recommended by the Boundary Commission and sanctioned by the Secretary of State. However, it is clear from the legislation and Department of the Environment circulars that there is a firm intention that these reviews should be taken seriously.
The Department of the Environment circular of April 1983 reiterated to district councils that they had not been released from their obligations under the Act to conduct parish reviews. Despite all the benefits that accrue from the establishment of parish councils in urban areas, few have been established. In the north-west I can think of only two which have been established in this way—Prescot town council in the borough of Knowsley and Shaw arid Crompton town council in Oldham district council. Indeed, the Shaw town council was largely established as a result of the vigorous efforts of Saddleworth's Chris Davies who is also campaigning to establish one in Littleborough, and he should be congratulated on that. Hon. Members may know of others which have been established more recently, and some go under the name of "town council". Yet, there is disappointment and bafflement that the urban parish council movement has not developed adequately.
Unfortunately, much depends on the district council. At present there are several reasons why many district councils have failed to undertake these reviews. District councils are invariably reluctant to divest powers, and many do not agree with the view of our joint alliance commission on constitutional reform, which states:
"no decision should be taken at a higher level of government which can with equal or greater effectiveness be taken at a lower level."
Given that the legislation imposes on district councils a duty to review the position of parish councils from time

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to time, it is not surprising that those district councils which are hostile to decentralisation and devolution should have chosen to delay their reviews again and again. New legislation, such as this Bill, should lay down a specific time, and my Bill suggests every five years.
A further complication is that under present arrangements any district council recommending that a parish should be established will have to show that it, the district council, does not already provide effective and convenient local government. As Joan Perrin of the Association for Neighbourhood Councils points out, this is an "unlikely prescription for change. "The phrase, "effective and convenient" is open to some criticism as there is no uniform understanding of its meaning." Guidelines should be laid down.
The sole responsibility should also be removed from district councils. Local residents—and I suggest this in my Bill—should have the right to initiate the review by petitioning the district council. The Urban Parishes Bill 1978, a private Member's Bill introduced by the late Graham Page—and I am glad that his successor, the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Thornton), is one of the sponsors of my Bill today — proposed that 100 local government electors would suffice. I think that that number is about right.
These moves would give added impetus to the growth of urban parish councils. In a city like Liverpool—the Bill is specifically aimed at cities — good people have drifted away from the complex and often soul-destroying job of being a city councillor. Neighbourhood councils would be a nursery for rearing a new generation of local councillors. They would also ease the burden on city councillors. The case loads of most of our inner city councillors—I served as one for eight years—are so vast that the councillors spend most of their time solving problems and little time acting as true representatives of their community.
The neighbourhood council would not require a vast bureaucracy or infinite sums of money. As the Merseyside Association of Local Councils and groups like the Southern Neighbourhood Council in Liverpool have proved, small is not only beautiful; it is often better as well.
A century ago, Liverpool had a network of mini town halls. The old Wavertree town hall in my constituency still stands, although these days it is used as a restaurant. Without highly localised decision making, the sense of community and civic pride which once existed throughout that network of town halls has sadly become another dim and distant memory.
My right hon. and noble Friend, Lord Grimond, once said that
"if politics is about power and Liberalism is about people, then we are for power to people."
Therefore, it is not surprising that Liberals are wholeheartedly supporting the Bill, but I am glad to say that hon. Members from all other parties are backing it, too. They, like me, believe that neighbourhood councils should be able to spend the equivalent of a 2p rate, commensurate with the population of their area.
We also believe that by being able to develop the local community facilities, by ensuring proper use of existing amenities and by championing local causes which are important to people, such neighbourhood councils will help to recreate the bonding of the community and
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establish a new sense of neighbourliness. Surely the principles of the village are good for the city as well. More than anything else, it is the anonymity, the powerlessness, the lack of a clear identity and of cohesion which have threatened the vitality of city life. No one else will reverse those trends but city dwellers themselves, and they need the structure and the power to enable them to do it.
The parish is the truly local level of government in England, the only one with a statutory status. It was created by the Liberal Government in the Local Government Act 1984. As such, it is perfectly placed to be the bedrock of devolutionist plans. The recognition of the need for a national system of parish councils. neighbourhood councils, town councils, community councils — call them what one will — as the building blocks of government is our starting point for the reform of local democracy.
Mr. Speaker: Does any hon. Member seek to oppose?
3.47 pm
Mr. Terry Fields: If the problems referred to by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill (Mr. Alton) could be resolved by councils and committees and reports—which is the line that he takes—we would have no problems in Liverpool. The hon. Member talks about city areas. Between 1968 and 1973 Liverpool had the education priority areas study, in 1969–70 the sheltered neighbourhood action, between 1969 and 1973 the Brunswick neighbourhood scheme, between 1969 and 1975 the Vauxhall community development project, between 1972 and 1976 Her Majesty's Government carried out various studies, including the inner area study, and we had the Department of the Environment priority estates project survey in 1984. All those studies have shown what people knew already—or at least any honest person — that the fundamental problem was and is the need for an urgent injection of finance into deprived areas, not the setting up of bogus committees to deal with the problem. The Liberal party's solution is to set up councils and committees, which will be starved of finance, and by that particular device spread the responsibility away from their particular door to the deprived areas that have been mentioned already.
The Red Russian leader, Vladimir Hitch Lenin, said that an ounce of experience is worth a ton of theory. The theory expounded by the hon. Member for Mossley Hill may seem attractive. However, in my view it is blatant electioneering by the Liberal party. Set against the background of social deprivation in places such as Liverpool, it is an abrogation of the responsibility of any administration, and a failure by councillors to face up to their legislative duties as elected community representatives. That is the theory.
The experience has been referred to by the hon. Member for Mossley Hill. The Southern neighbourhood council, a typical example of what he is talking about, has been in existence for 10 years in Liverpool. But it has only glossed over the needs of the people of Liverpool at a time of deprivation.
That deprivation has been referred to in reports Europe-wide. The constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mr. Parry) has been described as having the worst environmental and housing conditions in Western Europe, yet it is watched over by one of the neighbourhood councils that the hon. Member

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for Mossley Hill wants to implement. Blocks of flats in Caryl Gardens and King Gardens were listed on a demolition programme in 1979 in the area of the Southern neighbourhood council. In 1981–82, the Liberal administration cancelled those plans. It took a Labour administration in 1983, through the injection of finance and the urban regeneration programme, to deal with the environmental problem. Sad to relate, one of the first tasks undertaken by that council when it came to power through the decision of the Law Lords, when the 47 Liverpool councillors were removed, was to halt the project that would have dealt with the problems that the Southern neighbourhood council should have been dealing with.
The matter has been referred to in the House before. On 27 April 1983, the then Minister for Housing and Construction — the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Mailing (Mr. Stanley), now Minister of State for the Armed Forces—said:
"I must point out to the hon. Gentleman and the Liberal Party in Liverpool that Liverpool city council has been a conspicuous underspender. The crucial need in Liverpool is for full utilisation of the resources that have been made available."
Not setting up bogus councils, as the hon. Member for Mossley Hill proposes.
"The Liverpool city council underspent in 1981–82 and it appears that it has produced an increased underspend in 1982–83. The local authority should make better use of its stock and full use of its resources."—[Official Report, 27 April 1983; Vol. 41, c. 848.]
When the hon. Member for Mossley Hill was Liverpool's housing chairman in 1978–79, the housing investment programme was underspent by £6 million. That would be a hell of a lot of money today. In 1980–81, the Liberals in Liverpool had a housing allocation of £47·2 million: they spent £40·2 million—an underspend of £7 million. In 1981–82, they had an allocation of £40·8 million and spent £35·4 million—an underspend of £5·4 million. The total resources made available in 1982–83 amounted to £106·3 million; the council spent only £74 million — and underspend of £32 million.
We talk about power to the people, but it is power to the people without the resources to deal with the problems with which the council is supposed to deal. There are 33 wards in the Liverpool area; ideally, we should like more. We in the Labour party campaign to involve people in the communities in what is going on in Liverpool. But we must understand that councillors are democratically elected to the local council. They are accountable for the allocation of finance and resources to the entire city as a community, with public watchdogs to ensure that it takes place.
The question that must be posed against the recommendation is whether the problem is organisational or structural, or whether it is exacerbated by past Liberal administrations in the city of Liverpool, financial deprivation by central Government and the underspend that has been referred to. We cannot take in isolation the pseudo-populist charade engaged in by the hon. Member for Mossley Hill.
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In a debate in the House on 18 March, it was made clear that, apart from underspending money made available for the people of Liverpool and designated for housing areas, this caretaker authority had already cut £50 million from the needs of the people of Liverpool.
In that debate the hon. Gentleman asked the Government to allow the district auditor to conduct an efficiency audit survey and to highlight areas in which savings could he made. That means cuts in services and jobs. The community councils would be unable to help to try to resolve those problems. Traditionally, the Labour party and workers have achieved everything through struggle, but all that the Liberal party wants to do is to stand aside from its responsibilities to the people of Liverpool as a whole and to the electors nationally. It pretends that problems can be solved by setting up a few bogus committees and councils. The Labour administration in Liverpool stood up to the bully boys on the Conservative Benches, and our achievements will stand for all time.
For 10 years a Liberal-Tory community council glossed over the deep-seated problems that face my city. For a period of three and a half years, by injecting cash, which is the key to all the problems in our neighbourhoods, the Labour administration in Liverpool started to put right some of the abnormalities. The Liberal resolution cancelled all that we had done. If this bogus exercise is allowed to become a reality, valuable time will be wasted. Liverpool's problems can be resolved only by the injection of some of the wealth that has been created by the people of Liverpool. Decent housing must he provided, as of right, together with services and jobs. Only in that way shall we improve the conditions that have been created by the Tory Government and their bedfellows, the Liberal party.
I shall not divide the House on this issue, Mr. Speaker. However, I am highlighting the audacity of these people and the experience of neighbourhood councils in Liverpool, just to expose them for what they are.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman must follow his words with a shout of "No" when I put the Question.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Richard Wainwright, Mr. Archy Kirkwood, Mr.Malcolm Thornton, Mr. Dafydd Wigley, Mr. Terry Davis, Mr. James Wallace, Mr. John Cartwright, Mr. Cyril Smith, Mr. Michael Meadowcroft, Mr. Simon Hughes and Mr. David Alton.

Directly Elected Neighbourhood Councils
  DIRECTLY ELECTED NEIGHBOURHOOD COUNCILS
  Mr. David Alton accordingly presented a Bill to give residents of British cities the right to establish directly elected neighbourhood councils and to make consequential provision for their constitution and resources: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 3 July 1987 and to be printed. [Bill 144.]
Orders of the Day
  Finance Bill

    (Clauses Nos. 11, 18, 20 to 23, 33, 45, 147 and 160 and Schedule No. 4)
    Considered in Committee.
    [SIR PAUL DEAN in the Chair.]
    Ordered,
    That the order in which proceedings in Committee of the whole House on the Finance Bill are to be taken shall be Clause 20, Clause 23, Clause 21, Clause 22, Clause 11, Clause 147, Clause 160, Clause 18, Clause 33, Schedule 4 and Clause 45.—[Mr. Norman Lamont.]

    Clause 20

      CHARGE OF INCOME TAX FOR 1987–88
      Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
      Mr. Bryan Gould: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It might be of assistance to you and to the Committee, and out of courtesy to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if I say on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) that he has been unavoidably detained. He had intended to be present to hear the Chancellor's remarks and to make his contribution to the debate. He will join the Committee as soon as he is able to do so. In the meantime, I hope that the Committee will accept his apology.
      4 pm
      The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Nigel Lawson): I am sure that the Committee is grateful to the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) for that explanation.
      It is wholly appropriate that we should start the Committee stage of this year's Finance Bill with a clause that goes to the heart of the difference between the parties. I might add that before the Budget I was urged by the Opposition not to cut income tax because the polls showed that nobody wanted lower taxes, and that after the Budget they accused me of indulging in a pre-election bribe. Their concept of an unpopular bribe certainly shows the total confusion of the Labour party, which manoeuvres like squid lost in their own ink.
      If the proposal that is before the Committee today is unpopular, I can only say that the Government have consistently shown themselves prepared to take whatever measures are necessary in the interests of the British economy, however unpopular they may be at the time. If, on the other hand, it is popular, I can live with that.
      By last year we had reduced the basic rate of income tax—which is the marginal rate of tax for 94 per cent. of all personal taxpayers and 90 per cent. of unincorporated businesses and the self-employed—from the 33 per cent. we inherited from Labour to 29 per cent. The question before the Committee today is whether it should be further reduced to 27 per cent. It would then be within two points of the objective set by my predecessor in 1979 of a basic rate of no more than 25p in the pound, an objective which, given the continuation of present policies, it should not take too long to achieve—income tax down from a third to a quarter.
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      We on this side of the Committee are in no doubt: the basic rate of tax should now come down to 27 per cent. The Labour party, the Liberal party and the SDP are equally adamant that income tax should not be reduced and are committed to voting against it. The difference could not be plainer, nor is it any accident, for the Conservative party is the only party committed to reducing the burden of taxation as and when it is prudent to do so—that is precisely what we have done—while the Opposition parties are in the business of increasing the burden of taxation, as every Labour Government there has ever been have clearly demonstrated.
      It is true that when we first took office in 1979 we inherited a massive and unsustainable level of public borrowing which had to be brought under control if there was to be any prospect of bringing down inflation, to which we were committed. This initially involved, as we clearly explained at the time, an increase in the burden of taxation. But that phase was already over by the time we secured the overwhelming endorsement of the British people in the general election of 1983, and since then the path of taxation has been steadily downward.
      The basic rate of tax this year will be 6p in the pound lower than the rate that we inherited from Labour, the lowest it has been since before the war. At the same time, personal allowances are now 22 per cent. higher in real terms than in 1978–79 and the married man's allowance is at its highest level since the war. As a result, 1·4 million people have been taken out of income tax altogether, and tax thresholds in the United Kingdom are now around the international average. The overall burden of income tax is now some £12 billion lower than it would have been if we had kept Labour's tax regime and adjusted it for inflation—something which the Labour Government were not able to do in a number of years during the time they were in office.
      The benefits of these tax reductions have been felt at all levels of income. The percentage of earnings taken in income tax and national insurance contributions combined is lower at all levels than if we had kept the Labour regime and indexed it. And real take-home pay—which also, of course, takes account of the effect of changes in indirect taxation—is appreciably higher at all income levels. This is in stark contrast to Labour's record in office. Single people at all levels were worse off by 1978–79 than at the start of Labour's period in office. Under this Government their real take-home pay is up by a fifth or more.
      Take the married man on average earnings. Those without children were also worse off in 1978–79 than in 1973–74. Those with children did better, it is true. I shall quote the precise figures, because it is important that the Committee fully appreciate those cases where the Labour Government actually presided over an increase in living standards. The married man on average earnings, with two children, saw his real take-home pay go up by all of a half of 1 per cent. under Labour. That was all that the Labour Government achieved. Under this Government, it is up by more than 21 per cent.
      I should like to take just one more specific example, because it is of some topical interest and concerns a group whom the Opposition like to pretend have been victimised by this Government. After the pay award announced last week, a typical nurse will have seen her real take-home pay rise by no less than 42·4 per cent. since 1978–79. If she is

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      married to a typical teacher, their combined take-home pay will also have risen by more than 40 per cent., whereas under Labour it rose by a mere 4 per cent.
      The effect of this year's Budget alone is to increase the take-home pay of a married man on average earnings by almost £4 a week—quite apart from any further benefit that he may secure from the reduction in mortgage rates that comes into effect later this week.
      Mr. Neil Hamilton: The hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) began with an apology for the absence from the debate of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), who is still busying himself with his pudding. The hon Gentleman said nothing about the absence of any Labour Back Benchers. As this debate was trailed as their great opportunity to rant and rage against the cuts in income tax, does it not rather smack of bogus indignation that Labour cannot raise one Back-Bench Member to come to the debate?
      Mr. Lawson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Committee can observe that there is not one Labour Back Bencher in his place, with the exception of one PPS. The British people know the truth of what I have been saying. They know perfectly well how much better off they are than they were under Labour. That is why they will not be taken in for one moment by the desperate black propaganda launched by the Labour party this week.
      Talking of that, I have to thank the Leader of the Opposition for the letter that he sent me, which I received today. It was addressed very properly to Mr. N. Lawson, 11 Downing street, London SW1. It began "Dear Supporter" and went on to say that Labour was hard up and to ask for money. If the Labour party wants to save money, it can cease writing letters to Downing street for a start. I hope that the hon. Member for Dagenham will pay attention, because the letter went on to say:
      "we will be fighting on our record. While others will try the usual tactic of smear and half-truth, of mud slinging and personality politics, we will go with our record and our plans."
      When the hon. Gentleman addresses the Committee, we all expect that he will obey his leader's injunction and come forward with Labour's record and Labour's plans, and will not come forward with any of the smears and half truths that we heard yesterday. We had all that business of the secret manifesto in 1983. It was codswallop then and it is codswallop now. It was totally ignored then and it will be totally ignored now. The British people know that it is the Labour party, with its massive public expenditure to finance, that will increase the burden of taxation again if it is given the chance. They know that, to pay for Labour's £34 billion public spending programme—an extra £34 billion over and above the levels in the Government's White Paper — would require either a doubling of the basic rate of income tax or a more than trebling of the standard rate of VAT.
      My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made it clear as far back as 1984 that we have no intention of extending VAT to food. Beyond that, the incidence of taxation has to be determined in the light of the budgetary needs at the time, and no responsible Government could conceivably take any other position. What is abundantly clear is that it is the Labour party that is in the business of putting taxes up, and the Conservative party that is in business of bringing taxes down, and no amount of scaremongering can obscure that basic fact. As this year's Budget Red
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      Book clearly shows—I refer the Committee to table 2.6—the prospects on the basis of present policies are of a steady further reduction in taxation in the years ahead.
      The gulf between the parties on the issue of tax is, in part, a profound difference of political philosophy. We believe that what people earn and save belong to them, and that the state should take from them only what is necessary to discharge the functions that only the state can perform, leaving people free to make their own choices and to pursue their own destiny. The Opposition parties believe that all resources belong to the State, that all important decisions should be taken by the state, and that people should he "given"—that is the word they use—whatever pocket money is needed to keep them quiet.
      The gulf between the parties on tax is also at the heart of the difference between the two sides of the Committee over the conduct of economic policy. The Opposition start from the proposition that the cure for any economic problem lies in state intervention, which inevitably implies ever-increasing state spending and ever-increasing taxation to pay for that spending.
      The policy of the Government is clear, and distinct. As the dismal experience of the 1970s demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt, the crucial role of fiscal and monetary policy must be to control and conquer inflation. Within that framework, improved economic performance depends on the success of individual enterprise. That requires the Government resolutely to pursue a whole range of policies designed to remove the impediments to enterprise—through deregulation, through privatisation and through reducing the burden of taxation. This prescription is now accepted throughout the world. All major countries have now embarked on policies of deregulation. Most have embarked on programmes of privatisation, openly acknowledging the lead given by the United Kingdom.
      As for the burden of taxation, all the other members of the Group of Five have either cut their income tax rates or have announced plans to do so — so has Sweden, which has traditionally been a high tax country, and so have Australia and New Zealand. It is a pity that the hon. Member for Dagenham has not kept up with his compatriots, because the Labour Government in New Zealand are following the same economic policy as the British Government and are a great deal more enlightened than he is. Among the developing countries, India is reducing taxation. The last three of those countries have Socialist Governments. On this, as on so many issues, it is the Opposition parties that are out of step and out of touch. Everyone else knows that the only route to higher living standards and more jobs is through a more dynamic economy, and that the only route to a more dynamic economy is through lower tax rates. It is no accident that the two most successful economies in the Group of Five, and the two with the lowest levels of unemployment, the United States and Japan, are the two with the lowest burden of public spending and taxation.
      Moreover, the dynamic effect of reductions in tax rates can often mean not lower but higher revenues, thus leading to the scope for still further reductions in taxation. For example, despite the reductions that we have made, inheritance tax is expected this year to yield almost 50 per cent. more in real terms than capital transfer tax did in 1978–79. The yield of capital gains tax is forecast to he 80 per cent. higher in real terms, and stamp duty is up by 140 per cent. As for income tax, the higher rates applying in

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      1987–88 are, of course, much lower than the absurd penal rates that Labour enforced, but they are expected to yield 90 per cent. more in real terms, and the top 5 per cent. of taxpayers now contribute 28 per cent. of income tax, compared to 24 per cent. in Labour's last year. The greatly increased yield of corporation tax, reflecting greatly increased company profitability, is clearly connected with the reform of corporate taxation which I introduced in 1984, which brought the rate of tax on company profits in this country to the lowest in the industrialised world.
      4.15 pm
      Mr. Gould: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a forthcoming article in Fiscal Studies will show that, contrary to his assertion that the 1984 changes in corporate taxation would be revenue neutral, those changes have turned out to produce £1 billion more in revenue than the previous regime would have done in these circumstances?
      Mr. Lawson: I shall, of course, look at that article and have it properly evaluated. The increase in the yield of corporation tax is a result of the enormous increase in profitability that has occurred, in part because of the dynamic effects of the change in the corporation tax regime.
      There is, as I have said, a profound difference between the two sides of the Committee over economic policy, of which tax policy is an integral part. The policies that we have been pursuing have been abundantly vindicated by the results that they have brought. It is no accident that, this year, I have been able to reduce taxes by £2½ billion and to increase public spending on priority areas by £44¾billion, while reducing public borrowing below its previously planned level by some £3 billion. For the Opposition to claim that they would have used the money differently is totally irrelevant, because with their policies it would never have been there in the first place.
      As a result of our policies, the economy today is sounder than it has been at any time since the war—a fact that is increasingly recognised throughout the world. Of course, there is always scope for further improvement—that has always been so and will always be so in every country.
      Mr. Nigel Forman: My right hon. Friend was dealing with public spending and the economy's ability after five or six years of consecutive economic growth to afford increased public spending. Does he take account of the strong case, which many of us discover in our constituencies, for allowing pensioners to share in the fruits of this economic growth?
      Mr. Lawson: I am glad to say that pensioners have fully shared in the fruits of the economic growth. Over the period in which we have been in office, pensioners' incomes have risen faster than the average for other people. My hon. Friend should look at the figures. I shall be happy to write to him about this matter.
      It is fair to say that, at the present time, the biggest problems lie in the rest of the world as the United States and Japan, in particular, struggle to adjust successfully to the massive but necessary change the has occurred over the past two years in the dollar/yen exchange rate. It is of the first importance to all of us that those two powerful
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      nations pull back from the blind alley of a trade war and instead concentrate on measures to put their own houses in order, which in turn will underpin, as is highly desirable, the present world pattern of exchange rates.
      Meanwhile, the British economy is indeed, as the headline of the leading article in today's Financial Times describes us, "an island of success". I described some of that success story in my Budget speech last month — how our growth this year will be the highest in the industrialised world, with inflation remaining low, and how by the end of this year we will have registered the longest period of steady growth, at close to 3 per cent. a year, that the British economy has known since the war. I described the massive strength of our external position, while at home unemployment is now firmly on a downward trend. All that was on the basis of deliberately cautious forecasts.
      I shall not be publishing a further forecast until the autumn, in the usual way, but all the indicators that have been published since the Budget confirm that, if anything, we are doing even better than I suggested then. The PSBR for 1986–87 has come out lower than I forecast in the Budget. Inflation, too, is slightly lower than I implied in the Budget. The current account of the balance of payments is also performing better so far than I predicted. Output appears to be rising, if anything, rather faster.
      This is fully reflected in the CBI's "Quarterly Industrial Trends Survey", published yesterday, which is of course confined to manufacturing industry, about which the Opposition always profess particular concern. All in all, that survey shows manufacturing industry's optimism to be at or near the highest level ever recorded, whether in respect of output, orders or exports. Of course, this was before the further cut in interest rates yesterday, which I am sure the whole Committee will welcome.
      Those are the fruits of the policies that we have been consistently pursuing since we first took office.
      When he rises to speak, the hon. Member for Dagenham will, I have no doubt, paint a different picture—one of doom and despair, depression and disaster. Certainly, I very much hope he does, because the more that right hon. and hon. Members opposite do so, the more nails they hammer into the coffin of Labour's credibility. All it does is to demonstrate in the clearest possible way that they are wholly out of touch with what is happening in the real world.
      For the Opposition to criticise us for having increased taxation in 1979–81, when we were clearing up the mess that they left behind, is not merely an impertinence, it is Satan denouncing sin, coming from a party which is itself implicity committed to a massive further increase in the tax burden on ordinary people. The only 27 per cent. which the Labour Government ever knew was 27 per cent. inflation—and that is what we would see again if ever they were to regain office. No wonder they have committed themselves to reversing the 2p cut in income tax in the Budget. They are pleading guilty to this lesser offence to divert attention from the fact that to finance their overall spending plans would mean doubling the basic rate of income tax.
      As for the Liberals and the SDP—it would be wrong to forget them altogether—they say that they will vote against the 2p reduction in income tax, but do not know whether, if they were ever to be in a position to influence

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      events, they would reverse it or not. Their confusion on income tax parallels their confusion on every other aspect of economic policy, not to say more widely.
      The whole world now recognises that our policies have created an economy that is stronger than at any time since the war. The policies of the Opposition would destroy that strength. An integral part of our policy has been the reduction in income tax, and clause 20 is a further step forward. So long as this Government is in office, it will not be the last. I would remind the House of the precise words used by my predecessor in 1979, which I have reaffirmed before and reaffirm today: our long-term objective is a basic rate of
      "no more than 25 per cent."—[Official Report, 12 June 1979; Vol. 968, c. 261.]
      We do not pursue policies to meet arbitrary targets, and then sit back. We pursue them because they are right, and because they work, and we shall continue to do so.
      The contrast with the Opposition could not be greater. We believe in building on success; they believe in a return to the failures of the past. We believe in a free economy and a free society; they believe in state planning and state regulation. The vote at the end of the debate will be a vote of the first importance, for it will establish beyond doubt, once and for all, which party is the party of lower taxation, and which parties are the parties of higher taxation. I commend clause 20 to the Committee.
      Mr. Gould: We oppose the clause because it is wrong. It is wrong economically and it is wrong socially. We oppose it first because, in our present economic condition, there are better things to do with £2·5 billion than to give it away in tax cuts. We oppose the clause because giving away tax cuts is likely to harm our economy. We oppose it because it forms part of an overall taxation strategy with which we profoundly disagree. We have to look at the clause against the background of the Government's tax record. The Chancellor, in his peroration, said that the debate will show which party is the party of low taxation. Therefore, we are entitled to look at the Government's claims in that respect.
      The first point that should be made is that, of course, the overall effects of all the taxation changes made by the present Government have been regressive in their consequences. At the end of the day, they have benefited only those at the top of the income scale. Only those people have had real tax cuts in absolute and proportionate terms. Let us examine that claim. Again today, the Chancellor rehearsed an argument that we heard earlier from the Financial Secretary in his winding up speech on Second Reading last week. The Conservative claim has always been that it would reduce the tax burden for the country and for ordinary families. That is a fairly clear statement, a fairly clear claim and a clear objective. No one is in any doubt about what it means and what would be required if that claim were to be made.
      We heard from the Chancellor and from the Financial Secretary a careful, complex attempt to deal with the awkward truth that, bearing in mind absolute rates of taxation and proportionate burdens of taxation, for the vast majority of people in this country—and indeed for the country as a whole—a greater proportion of income and of national wealth is now taken by taxation than was taken in 1979. Conservative Members try to deal with that awkward truth by talking about other matters, such as real
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      take-home pay and real earnings—about anything other than the precise nature of their claim to have been a tax-cutting Government.
      It is not we who wish to introduce the matter. It is not we who say that it is a matter of enormous importance. But since the Government insist that that is what their record shows, and since this is the test by which they themselves insist that that they should be judged, surely we are entitled to say that the facts simply do not bear that out. In case any hon. Members on the Government Benches are inclined to contest what I say, let me warn them, before they make such a rash claim, that they should recognise that the Financial Secretary, in addition to all the other things that he said in winding up the Second Reading debate, actually admitted:
      "of course, a person on average earnings"—
      that includes many on above-average earnings as well—
      "is paying more pounds in tax—he is even paying a higher percentage in tax".—[Official Report, 22 April, 1987; Vol.114, c. 760.]
      On my reckoning, that simple admission — that simple statement—means that no credence whatsoever can be placed on the claim that the Government have been a tax-cutting Government.
      Mr. Lawson: If the hon. Gentleman had been paying attention — he usually does, but on this occasion he clearly did not—he would have heard me deal with his point in my opening remarks. I clearly said that between 1979 and 1981, when we were clearing up the mess that we were left by the Labour Government, when we had to bring down a massive and totally unsustainable public sector borrowing requirement, we were obliged to increase the burden of taxation. Not only did I say that today, but we explained it clearly at the time, and the hon. Gentleman will find that in my Zurich speech of January 1981. That period had already come to an end by the time we went to the people in 1983 and had our mandate endorsed by the British people. Since then, the burden of taxation has gone steadily down. That demonstrates our credentials as a tax-cutting Government and a tax-cutting party. That is the direct answer to the hon. Gentleman's point.
      Mr. Gould: That statement sounded remarkably like a lengthy and unconvincing excuse coupled with a confession. It was an explanation—an unconvincing one — of why what I said was right and why the Government's claims have been wrong. It simply gave us some rationale for the confession made earlier by the Financial Secretary. Of course, the Chancellor can explain until he is blue in the face why he put up taxes between 1979 and 1981 and why, for example, his predecessor doubled VAT from 8 per cent. to 15 per cent. Of course, the point might be taken that it was not an actual doubling. In April 1979, his predecessor said:
      "We have absolutely no intention of doubling VAT."
      That is a direct quotation. The raising of VAT from 8 per cent. to 15 per cent. was just 1 per cent. short of an actual lie. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants to take up that point, by all means let him. However, his lengthy intervention sounded like bluster designed to get away from the simple fact on which the Government are clearly very unwilling to be hooked — the Government keep drawing attention to this, not the Opposition—that they have raised the burden of taxation absolutely and proportionately for the great majority of families.
      4.30 pm
      Mr. John Maples: How much more tax would a man on average earnings be paying if the tax rates and thresholds that we inherited from the previous Labour Government had been indexed? I believe that the answer is about £500.
      Mr. Gould: The hon. Gentleman is requiring me to have the ability of a computer to answer a totally hypothetical question, which again is no more than a ploy designed to deflect attention from this simple point.
      I am very willing to move on from this point. However, Conservative Members clearly wish me to remain with it. Therefore, I can do no more than reassert the concession made by the Financial Secretary and the point that was clearly made by the Chancellor in his intervention. In case anyone in the Committee wants to dispute the matter further, I will provide one more opportunity. The present Government, during their period in office, have raised the burden of taxation for the nation as a whole, for the average family and for most ordinary families absolutely and proportionately. That is a clear and accurate statement. It is on the record. It cannot be challenged. It rests on an assertion made by the Financial Secretary.
      Mr. Forman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
      Mr. Gould: No, we must really move on. I suspect that the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Forman) is likely to do even more damage to his cause than has been done so far.
      Mr. Lawson: The hon. Gentleman is not prepared to give way to Conservative Back Benchers—and I regret that—but I am grateful that he has given way to me. As the hon. Gentleman is so interested in the burden of taxation, does he believe that the burden should be reduced or increased? Will he answer that, or does he think that the burden of taxation should remain exactly as it is?
      Mr. Gould: As a preliminary remark, I notice that the Chancellor has again not taken the opportunity of disputing the simple truth that I have explained on several occasions. However, since he has asked this question, I must state that the Opposition have absolutely no responsibility for the current level of taxation. The Government's record is now under scrutiny. The Government have brought taxation to its present level. They are making false claims that I am obliged to knock down — [Interruption.] I will answer the Chancellor's question. Unlike Conservative Members, we have no inhibitions about answering questions.
      The Government have mismanaged the economy. In addition to the other damage that they have done to the economy and in addition to the desperate need for investment in the economy, they have increased the burden of taxation. It is not the Opposition's responsbility to accept that level of taxation, but we must accept it because that is what we will inherit.
      The Opposition are happy to state that if there is money available in the state of the economy that we inherit—and I have a long passage in my speech which I will come to in this respect if the Chancellor will be patient—that money should be used not to reduce income tax, but for investment. That is quite clear and we have no inhibitions about making that claim. We believe that money should be used for that purpose. The tax burden that the Government have established for the time being, which is
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      higher than they inherited, should be maintained for the moment in the interests of the economy because of the weakness of the economy that we will inherit from the present Government.
      Mr. Forman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
      Mr. Gould: No, I am sorry. I must press on.
      While there is clearly great interest in the question of the tax burden, I would have thought that Conservative Members would realise by now that their claim—which doubtless they will blithely continue to make in the coming months and years — that this Government are a tax-cutting Government flies in the face of the facts. All I can do is to lay the facts before the Committee and invite the British people to make their judgment. If the Committee really wants me to reiterate the truth, I will. However, I believe that I would be in danger of trying the patience of the Committee if I were to do that.
      I want to make it perfectly clear that the changes proposed in the clause do very little to remedy the picture that I have described. Even after the changes have taken place, as has been made clear in written answers provided by the Financial Secretary—and that is presumably why he had no option but to make his confession — the burden of taxation will be greater. We are not even talking about changes that will at last make good the Government's claim to be a tax-cutting Government.
      Furthermore, the Government have characteristically chosen to use the available money to reduce taxes in such a way as to produce the usual regressive effect. If the Government had been really keen to use money to reduce taxation, or even income tax, they could have done so in a way that would have benefited those at the lower end of the income scale. However, the Government chose not to do that. They again chose cynically to give the major benefits to those who are already best off in our society. If they were interested in distributing income, they could have used the money to make good the real value of child benefit. However, they chose not to. Instead. they have again given tax benefits principally to the best off. The British people will not easily forgive that. They will recognise what is happening.
      Mr. Tim Smith: The hon. Gentleman should not be allowed to get away with that assertion. If he looks at clause 20, he will learn that there has been no increase in the higher rate bands, as opposed to last year.
      Mr. Gould: However, over the total period, those at the top of the scale have obtained enormous benefits, and a flat rate cut will increase benefits for those at the top of the scale.
      The Opposition are opposed to the Government's long-term plans to shift the balance from direct to indirect taxation. I do not imagine that the Chancellor, his Minsters or any of his Back-Bench colleagues would dispute the fact that the Chancellor and his Ministers have frequently said that their long-term intention is to bring about that shift from direct to indirect taxation. In his 1984 Budget speech, the Chancellor said that an extension in VAT was the counterpart to cuts in income tax. That was the Chancellor's stated objective in 1984. A former Tory Cabinet Minister, now an EEC Commissioner in Brussels, is preparing measures which would abolish zero rating for VAT altogether. We watch with interest to see the Government's response to that proposal.

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      Yesterday there was a new development. I have on at least four occasions challenged the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary — I may even have challenged the Financial Secretary — to rise at the Dispatch Box and deny that work has been carried out in the Treasury with regard to a major extension of VAT. On each of those occasions the Chancellor and his Ministers sat tightlipped. They did not move a muscle. They did not utter a sound. It was left to their right hon. Friend the chairman of the Conservative party to lift a little corner on the truth, not in the Chamber or in Committee, but in a television studio, and under some considerable pressure. He confirmed for the first time that indeed there had been a study. Of course, he did all that he could to minimise its importance. He said that the study had been carried out by some little academic study group and it really had nothing to do with the Government. He said that academics get on with such studies all the time, although he thought that there had been some small Treasury contribution to the funds to set up that study. For the first time we have had an admission that a study has been carried out.
      Mr. Lawson rose—
      Mr. Gould: I am delighted that the Chancellor is for the first time showing signs of rising on this point, but before he intervenes could I state that we need to know the terms of reference of that study. Who carried it out? Have conclusions been reached? What action is proposed to be taken on the conclusions? What part will the conclusions play in the Government's plans if they are re-elected for a third term? If the Chancellor would care to answer all or any of those questions, the Committee would be immensely gratified.
      Mr. Lawson: The hon. Gentleman is getting desperate, because there is nothing secret or hidden about the work to which my right hon. Friend referred. The Economic and Social Research Council, the Treasury and others have been jointly funding academic research on taxation since 1983. Applications for research proposals on indirect taxes were advertised in The Guardian in 1985. When the Labour party has to scrabble around to produce examples such as those to justify its ludicrous claims about the Government's intentions it shows just how threadbare it is. No work has been commissioned or undertaken inside or outside the Treasury on any proposal by Ministers to increase VAT or extend its coverage.
      Mr. Gould: I notice how carefully the Chancellor chose his concluding remarks—that no work has been done on proposals by Ministers. I wonder whose proposals were considered in that case. He carefully avoided answering any of the questions that I posed to him. If the study was as publicly known as the Chancellor suggested, why, when the Chancellor was challenged on four embarrassing occasions to come clean, did he not utter a word? Why was it that the first time we heard of this was when a non-Treasury Minister, under considerable pressure, was forced to scrabble around for an answer?
      If the Chancellor would care to intervene to give us any of the answers to the questions I posed—what were the terms of reference of that study group; what were its conclusions; and what action is proposed to be taken in the light of those conclusions—we could test his claims that this study is of no consequence and that it implies
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      nothing for the Government's plan for a third term. I see that the Chancellor, characteristically, does not propose to answer those questions — the questions that really matter. He answered in carefully chosen words drafted for him in advance, but he cannot answer the real and crucial questions which would reveal the extent of the Government's intention to shift the burden from income tax to VAT.
      It is perfectly clear from the Chancellor's silence that we are in the familiar situation where the British people are being offered income tax cuts before the general election and an increase in VAT after the general election. That is the truth of the matter and that is what will be taken from this debate by the British people.
      Mr. David Winnick: Is it not interesting that when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition challenged the Prime Minister yesterday on whether she is actively opposed to any increase in the rate of VAT, or any extension in its scope, the Prime Minister refused to answer? If it is true that a re-elected Tory Government — it is not likely to happen, because the Tories are not likely to be re-elected — would increase VAT, as we say they would, would that not wash away the few shillings gained by people from the tax cuts, because the average family would pay far more as a result of increases in indirect taxation?
      Mr. Gould: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It is significant that the Chancellor has had 24 hours longer in which to prepare some sort of answer to the question on which the Prime Minister dropped an obvious dead bat yesterday. If the Prime Minister had been able to deny our assertions yesterday, she would have done so. The truth is that an extension of VAT, as we believe is proposed by the Government for a third term in office, would increase the average family budget by over £10 a week. The Government have that, prospect in store for ordinary families.
      4.45 pm
      The tax cuts would impact on the economy, because the use of this money to reduce income tax by 2p in the pound is likely to damage, rather than to help, the economy. The first point is that a cut in income tax is the most inflationary way of using this money to cut taxes, because it would suck in imports, make the balance of payments decline and therefore reduce the value of the pound, pushing up inflation. It would also impact directly on the balance of trade.
      The Treasury forecasts a trade deficit in manufactured goods of £8 billion this year and an overall trade deficit of £2·5 billion. I hear a call "So what?" from the Government Back Benches. It reminds me that, when we pointed out the turnaround in our trade in manufactures of £13 billion since 1978, the Chancellor said, "That is neither here nor there". As I pointed out in that debate, the volume of production worth £13 billion is certainly not here, but it is there—it is in Frankfurt, Cologne and Tokyo. Those goods are being produced there, and the jobs needed to produce the goods are being created there. Our balance of trade deficit in manufactures is of the gravest significance for our economic future. Any measure, such as cuts in income tax, which will suck in further goods from abroad. close down British factories and throw further British workers on to the dole is likely to do grave damage to our economy.

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      Let us look at the argument about the beneficent effects of income tax cuts on incentive. We do not hear much of it today, but we used to hear a great deal of how income tax cuts would make everybody work harder and longer. It is difficult for the Chancellor or any other Minister to make that argument today, because a study commissioned by the Treasury, published recently, called "Taxation and family labour supply in Great Britain", concluded that even substantial changes would make virtually no difference whatsoever to the number of hours worked by most people. That study, commissioned by the Government, blows out of the water the reasoning which lies behind the case for improving incentives through cutting taxation.
      Mr. Michael Fallon: The Treasury study dealt with the incentives for those in work; it did not deal with incentives in the taxation system for those out of work. Can the hon. Gentleman explain how somebody who is out of work in the north-east is more likely to take work if his income tax were to be increased and his take-home pay reduced, as it would be if the Opposition's vote tonight were successful?
      Mr. Gould: The hon. Gentleman thinks he is making a separate point, but it is exactly the same point as was considered by the Brown report. It is simply a question of incentives to work additional or any hours to improve one's income above the current and presumed level. This reports bears out what common sense would have told Ministers a long time ago: if one reduces taxation, the likely effect on the ability or willingness of people to work is that they will work less and will earn the same income for less work. Many people, on purely common sense grounds, would choose to respond to that by not working as hard.
      Furthermore, the Government have to explain why tax incentives are required to get those in work who are at the top end of the income scale to work hard, whereas the disciplines required to force unemployed people to work are cuts in benefits and cuts in pay. That is the difference. That is the affront to common sense that the Government have to explain. That is the socially divisive policy to which they have attached their name and attitudes.
      Mr. Forman: The import of the point that the hon. Gentleman has just made seems to be that if the Labour party were to take office, which I doubt, it would seek to put up income tax and thereby get people to work harder. Is that the conclusion that he is drawing?
      Mr. Gould: The argument that the hon. Gentleman postulates is not one to which we have ever paid any attention. It is the Government who maintain that the incentive effect of taxes is crucial and it is the Government's own study that shows that that claim is ill-founded. Again, the Government put up a target which is all too easily knocked down. But it is not our target. It is not an argument that Labour Members would wish to make.
      The major objection to these tax cuts is that they pass up a real opportunity to use resources which have come in an uncovenanted way to the Chancellor. They have come, for example, because corporation tax, contrary to the Chancellor's assertions earlier, has proved to be a more
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      buoyant revenue raiser than was foreseen when the 1984 tax changes were made. He has used that money not for the purpose of investing in the real needs of our economy, which is desperately crying out for that investment, but for purposes that will harm that economy.
      The Government's model of the economy and the London Business School's computer model of the economy, neither of which is particularly confident or helpful to our case, show clearly that the Government's chosen course of tax cuts is four times less effective than if that money were invested in the same quantities in our economy to create employment and increase output. If we had used that £2·5 billion, the models of the economy—on which, again, we place little reliance, but which the Government have always maintained are important guides to economic policy — show a 4:1 ratio between the number of jobs created by investment in our economy and tax cuts.
      That is the chance that the Chancellor has passed up. That is the extent to which he has turned his back on the unemployed. With £2·5 billion at his disposal—he had more, but he has chosen to use £2·5 billion for tax cuts—he could have invested in our infrastructure, in our skill training and directly in our industry. He could have done all those things, but he has allowed a situation to develop in which manufacturing investment languishes at 20 per cent. below its 1979 level.
      The Chancellor asks about the CBI survey. Why does he not look at "Fabric of the Nation", the report produced by the CBI complaining that shortage of investment was ruining our industrial infrastructure? Why does he not look at the Manpower Services Commission, another Government-sponsored agency, which says that we are training eight times fewer engineers than the Japanese? Those are the things on which the money could have been spent. Those are the things on which a Labour Government would spend that money. The real charge against the Government is that, for cynical electoral reasons, they have passed up an opportunity which could have benefited the economy.
      The case against tax cuts is so substantial that it is impossible to believe that they have been proposed by the Government for any better reason than that they make the cynical judgment that the floating voter is as avaricious, selfish, short-sighted and unconcerned for the general interest as the average Tory Back Bencher.
      That judgment is as mistaken as it is cynical. It is a judgment that is not shared by the British people. Indeed, it is not even shared by the British Institute of Management, which, in February, said that managers preferred some specific increases in Government spending to a cut in taxation. Only a quarter sought tax cuts before some increase in public expenditure. The increases in public expenditure on infrastructure that were announced in the public expenditure White Paper—who was saying that they had not got it?—were not enough, according to the British Institute of Management. It said that managers strongly support direct measures to tackle persistent high unemployment.
      That is the option that was available to the Government. That is an option recognised not just by the Labour party but by many people in society, the British Institute of Management and many other institutions. All the opinion polls tell us that the British people reject the cynical bargain offered by the Government. They will reject that cynical deal. They know that tax cuts are not

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      the way to obtain decent housing, and proper pensions, schools and housing. They know that that is not the way to get what only community provision can make available to them. For that reason, they will reject the Government's offer, as we shall do tonight.
      Sir William Clark: It is always a pleasure to listen to the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould). Most of us look upon him with generous feelings and some friendship. However, we feel some sympathy for him in advocating a policy on behalf of the Labour party with which he does not agree.
      It is obvious that with the hon. Gentleman's intellect and experience of finance there is no way in which he can talk about the Government giving away £2·5 billion. On thresholds, he will agree with me that the Government have kept well in front of inflation and that the lower paid are better off than they would have been if we had followed the principles followed by the Labour Government on the starting rate of tax. I have no doubt that he will agree that the standard of living in Britain has increased tremendously since 1975, which was not the case before the Government took office.
      The hon. Gentleman says that we have not decreased direct taxation, but he is not facing the facts. The standard rate was 33p in the pound and it is now—or will be—27p. The top rate was 98p and is now 60p. He talks about the 2p reduction being inflationary, but the logic of that is that we should go back to 33p. Apparently, if a reduction of 2p in the standard rate of taxation is inflationary, to avoid that we should go back to 33p. However, I remind him that when it was 33p we had inflation of about 27 per cent. Now we have inflation of about 4 per cent.
      The hon. Gentleman talked about the reduction in the standard rate sucking in imports, but if he looks at the Labour Government's balance of payments record, for practically every year of that Government there was a deficit in our balance of payments. That position has been completely reversed by this Government.
      I do not think that the hon. Gentleman believes all that his colleagues forecast. Just before the 1983 election the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) said that inflation would be in double figures. Double figures means 10 per cent., but it has not been 10 per cent. since 1983, and it is 4 per cent. now. Another of his colleagues said that unemployment would rise to 24 per cent., but in fact it is 11 per cent. It was also said that the National Health Service would be dismantled within five years, but that has not happened. It was said that we would become a bankrupt nation and that output would go down, but since 1983 output has increased tremendously. It was said that pensioners would be much worse off after 1983 under another Conservative Government, but under this Government the pensioners have had an increase 4·5 times greater than under the previous Labour regime.
      The VAT smear with regard to food, and so on, that is now going around has been answered by my right hon. Friends the Chancellor and the Prime Minister.
      What the Labour party has not said, and what the hon. Member for Dagenham avoided, is the effect of its policies on VAT. I remind the hon. Gentleman that if the promises of his hon. Friends, and even the official policy of his party, were implemented, they would lead to a VAT rate of about 49 per cent.
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      The hon. Member for Dagenham did not deal with what the Labour party's plans for increased expenditure would mean for the standard rate of tax. It would mean a standard rate of tax of just over 50p in the pound as a starting point and VAT would be about 48 or 49 per cent. The Labour party should address itself to these points and explain to the electorate what it plans to do.
      5 pm The hon. Member for Dagenham said that the Chancellor underestimated the amount that he would receive from corporation tax. The reason for the Chancellor receiving more from corporation tax is the increased profitability of companies.
      Mr. Gould rose—
      Sir William Clark: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to finish and get my facts right before he attempts to distort them.
      We must realise that, if the profitability of a company increases, by necessity the Chancellor's take is greater.
      Mr. Gould: I do not dispute the point that the hon. Gentleman has made, but he fails to take the one that I made. Far from being revenue neutral, the changes that were announced in 1984 — accepting the level of profitability of the corporate sector today — have produced £1 billion more in corporation tax than would have been the case without those changes. That is nothing to do with profitability.
      Sir William Clark: This worries me. The hon. Member for Dagenham is the Labour party spokesman on finance. If he believes that the neutrality of corporation tax is not dependent on the profitability of companies, he is whistling in the dark. Obviously, one can reduce taxes and receive a greater take if the income of a company increases.
      I cannot understand the Opposition's claims of gloom and doom with regard to the Budget. The CBI, which mainly represents manufacturing industry, is extremely optimistic and bullish. There is no question but that the economy is in better shape than it has been for many years.
      Let us look at the public sector borrowing requirement. I was surprised that last year's borrowing requirement was so low, and on that I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. The Chancellor is not over-optimistic. He takes a very pragmatic approach to the outcome of the year's finances. The public sector borrowing requirement is very low at £4 billion. That achievement is not recognised by many people in this country. Output is going up.
      The Labour party gives me the impression — I am sure that it gives the rest of the country the same impression—that it is the party of higher taxation. It always has been. The history of Labour Governments since the end of the war shows that they have always increased taxes. Conservative Administrations have reduced them.
      The hon. Member for Dagenham—I welcome this—said that he was pressing my right hon. Friend the Chancellor on his plans for his third term. That is fairly defeatist talk on behalf of the Labour party. Apparently, it has realised that we shall have a third term and that, with the advent of polling day, my right hon. Friend v. ill still be Chancellor of the Exchequer.
      I welcome clause 20 because I am convinced that it is right. As a starting rate 27p is still too high, and I welcome

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      what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said about the target being 25p. I noticed—I will not press him on this point—that he did not say what the higher rate would be. At some time I should like to tell him what I think the top rate should be.
      Anybody — including the hon. Member for Dagenham—who says that this is an election or bribery Budget and that the reduction of 2p in the standard rate of tax has been made to gain votes should think again. I wonder what the Labour party would say if it went through every Budget since 1979. Direct taxation has been reduced in each successive Budget. There was no election in 1980, 1981, 1982—in 1983 there was—1984, 1985 and 1986, but there has been a continual steady reduction in the burden of taxation. The lower we can get direct taxation, the greater the incentive for people to work, which is what we want for a prosperous society. That is what we are becoming, because we are in a much more prosperous situation today than we have been for many years.
      Mr. Ian Wrigglesworth: The hon. Member for Croydon, South (Sir W. Clark) referred to taxation and reductions in taxation, but in this clause we are only dealing with the reduction of income tax.
      The hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) was right to point out that if one is talking about all taxes—customs duties, employees' national insurance contributions, VAT and the whole range of taxes—the Government have increased the burden of taxation.
      We are dealing with income tax, and whether it should be reduced by the 2p that the Chancellor is proposing. The Chancellor said that it was the policy of the Government, and the Conservative party's view, that income taxes should be reduced as and when prudent. I was pleased to hear him say that. However, unless we can deal with unemployment, the problems affecting the Health Service, education and training, housing and many others such as the lack of research and development in industry and the brain drain, it would not be prudent to reduce income tax. If we can start to deal with those problems in a substantial manner, we can see no reason for keeping income tax or any other taxes a penny higher than we must.
      We would have preferred to see the Chancellor in his speech today and in his Budget speech and Ministers in their speeches pay much more attention not to the inflated, exaggerated claims about the performance of the economy at the present time but to some of the problems that face the country, some of which have been exacerbated by the policies of the Government after nine years. It is to those problems that we should be addressing our minds this evening because they are the long-term problems which, if not overcome, will undermine the long-term success of the economy and industry. They are the problems to which the people of this country want to see their Government addressing their attention and resources.
      Let me deal first with what is undoubtedly, in most people's minds, the No. 1 problem facing the country—to which the Chancellor's Budget pays hardly any attention — unemployment. All the evidence we have from consistent findings in opinion polls, from our experience as Members of Parliament in our constituencies and throughout the history of the past three or four years shows that unemployment has been the anxiety about
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      which the people have felt most strongly. However, the Government have paid little attention to it in speech after speech and policy after policy. The reality is that, after all this time of Conservative rule, we still have in excess of 3 million people available for work. This figure includes those who are not on the register, because those on the register are simply those registered for benefit, and there are many more people who want to work. Those of us who represent areas of high unemployment — my county has the highest level of unemployment of any in Great Britain, except the Western Isles—believe that unemployment at over 20 per cent. is a scandal and should be a top priority for the Government.
      Before the Budget, we put forward proposals on how we believe that the Government should be using their resources to get those people back to work and make it possible for them to seek fulfilment in work, with a better income. We showed how the economy would benefit by the increased wealth that would be created if that unused capacity, that unused resource of people, was in use.
      We believe that, by embarking on a programme for expansion of some £4·9 billion, we can, over three years. get about 1 million people back to work. That will still leave an unacceptably high level of unemployed people. I wish that the House and its Committees would spend more time considering the problems that every party in the House knows will be there. We shall have at least 2 million people wanting work, no matter which party wins the general election and no matter what policies are introduced.
      That is why we believe that the second priority for the Government, rather than cutting income tax, is to deal with that problem of unemployment, which means that a substantial number of people in Britain today are facing considerable hardships. Furthermore, the benefits for pensioners and those hardest hit by unemployment and the recession should be increased.
      Thirdly, we believe that one must consider the long-term future of British industry and the British economy, and we believe that a number of measures are necessary to build for that future. Foremost among those I put education and training. When the Government came into office in 1979, they began to destroy the training system. They abolished the training boards and the apprentice opportunities that used to be available to thousands of young people when they left school.
      After a time, as unemployment went through the roof and the Government began to get very worried about the electoral consequences of the level of unemployment and realised that they must do something for the unemployed young people, they introduced the youth training scheme and spatchcocked it together. We were delighted that the Government introduced that scheme. We pressed them to extend it to two years and we were delighted when they did so. We supported the Government when they introduced the youth training scheme, but the scheme still has a great deal further to go if it is to make a contribution to the skills and future of our young people in the way that it should.
      5.15 pm
      The first and most important thing that must happen to YTS, apart from putting extra resources into it and ensuring that people get the skilled training that they need for the rest of their lives, is to give it an accredited status so that it can be used to get further qualifications. It is no good doing a two-year youth training scheme if at the end

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      of that time one has nothing of value to take either to an educational or training institution or to an employer, such as an O-level or a CSE.
      I am pleased that Ministers have responded to my pleas and those of my colleagues for a move in that direction, and that the Manpower Services Commission is working on a programme to get accreditation for the youth training scheme so that it dovetails with the rest of our education and training system and gives young people a real opportunity. Putting resources into that is a top priority if we are to succeed against competing countries such as Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong, America, and Germany, all of which have education and training systems that make ours look sick.
      There is a great thirst for education in places such as Hong Kong, where half the population is under 21. The small country of South Korea, with 15 million people, is producing four times as many graduates in information technology as both this country and West Germany combined. That is the challenge that faces our country, not the challenge of people in work getting a cut in income tax. We want more resources to go to education and training so that we can match the output of graduates and skilled people from our educational and training institutions with those of other countries such as Japan, America and Taiwan.
      One sees in the education institutions of the world people from China, Hong Kong, Taiwan and other countries with an enormous thirst for education. We must encourage that thirst here and provide the resources for it.
      As a priority, the Government must also pay attention to our manufacturing industries, to research and development and to ensuring that highly qualified people from educational institutions come into industry and make it a top priority. It has been palpably obvious to everybody since the Government came into office that they do not care a hoot about manufacturing industry. We have heard all this talk about the services industry and we heard it again today. The Tories say, "Don't worry about the deficit in manufactured goods. Don't worry about the billions of pounds and record level of manufactured deficit."
      Sir Raymond Gower: How does the hon. Gentleman explain the fact that action by Government is not always necessary? How does he explain the great recovery in our textile industry?
      Mr. Wrigglesworth: The textile industry is like other industries. It was hit in the face and knocked flat on its back by the Government's policies from 1979 to 1981–82. It is now getting back up on its knees again and Ministers say that that is a wonderful miracle. One industry after another has been in that position. They have been almost destroyed. Many have gone out of business, which is why we have lost 22 per cent. of our manufacturing industry.
      All that has happened because of the policies that the Chancellor has demonstrated that he wants us all to forget about. He wants to forget about what the Conservative party did to this country between 1979 and 1982. That was the black period for manufacturing industry, as one company after another went bankrupt and the level of unemployment went up through the roof. It has stayed up there ever since. That was the period that the Government want to wipe out. They are like Stalin: they want to forget parts of their history; they want to forget that that period
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      existed. Let me tell the Chancellor and his colleagues that we will not allow them to forget the 1979–82 period when they followed their monetarist policies.
      Now we are witnessing a change. It has occurred in the past few months and was contained in the Chancellor's autumn statement. Public expenditure has been anathema to the Conservatives. The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) used to talk about public expenditure as if it were a swear word. Public expenditure was not something that was embarked upon by Conservative Governments true to the faith. Goodness me, look at the Chancellor's autumn statement and consider the press releases—some extremely expensive—issued by Government Departments. The statement and those press releases boast about public expenditure. When the Government first came into office we heard a great deal about them taking their hands off industry, not intervening in industry and having nothing to do with market forces. However, the Government are intervening in market forces all over the place. One almost needs the help of a management consultant to go through all the schemes that are available from the Department of Trade and Industry.
      I welcome all those changes, but that was not what the Government had in mind in 1979. Then they said that we should abolish all such schemes. This week we had a new announcement about inner-city initiatives and partnerships with local authorities and the private sector. We have been asking for that for years, but it is only in recent times that the Government have been converted. Over the years, requests have been made for urban development corporations. How long have the Government been refusing proposals for a development agency in the north and the north-west? They have not closed down the Scottish Development Agency or the Highlands and Islands Development Board. Such intervention is line because they know that if they tried to abolish those bodies there would be an outcry and they would lose even more Scottish votes. My goodness, as ballot boxes loom large on the horizon, the Government have changed their attitude.
      Sir William Clark: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, in 1979, British manufacturing industry was so uncompetitive and overmanned that it was inevitable that, if we were to survive, all surplus labour had to be shed? Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that, in the autumn statement of last year, the Government said—successive Conservative Governments have said the same — that when the economy was strong enough, more resources would be put into public expenditure? My right hon. Friend has been able not only to increase public expenditure on education, roads and the rest of it, but, at the same time, to reduce taxation and reduce the borrowing requirement. Surely credit should be given for that.
      Mr. Wrigglesworth: I cannot stand the Conservative party propaganda that is presently pouring out from Tory Back Benchers. To suggest that 20 per cent. of the manufacturing capacity of Britain was completely lost simply because firms were inefficient is unbelievable.
      The hon. Member for Croydon, South should look at the history and talk to some of the managers in the manufacturing industries. The Conservatives should accept that firms went bankrupt because of the exchange

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      rate and interest rates—they were crippled by them and could not remain in business. During 1979–82, the exchange rate against the dollar was $2·40. We then went almost to parity with the dollar and now the rate is $1·60. How can businesses try to organise their planning, marketing, manufacturing or investment when there are such fluctuations in the exchange rate?
      I believe that the Government should use their resources to benefit the Health Service. Recently, we have heard a number of boasts about how much the Government are spending on the Health Service. However, when the Government talk about the resources that are being spent on the Health Service, they never tell us about the demands that are placed on those resources. We believe that we must spend an extra 2 per cent. a year on the Health Service to sustain it at its present level.
      We are all aware that we have an increasingly ageing population who need more care. Modern technology in the Health Service means that it is becoming more expensive to treat people. To sustain the hip replacements and other operations that are presently carried out, we must increase expenditure by 2 per cent. a year.
      What is happening to the Health Service today? The Government are demanding productivity increases from the hospitals and are demanding that the health authorities pay for an element of the pay increases that the Government have agreed. They tell district health authorities that the Government will increase nurses' pay—they have said this for the past three years—and will increase Civil Service pay, but they will not give the money to pay for those increases.
      I concede that the Government are giving almost all the money to meet the recently announced nurses' pay increase, but an element of that increase must be found by the Health Service from other resources. That is leading to a dire financial crisis for the North Tees health authority. A deputation from that authority will shortly meet the Minister because of that crisis. It cannot sustain the present level of health care unless the Government are prepared to make extra funds available.
      The North Tees health authority has an excellent record of efficiency and productivity. There is one general hospital in Stockton — just outside my constituency —that serves the North Tees district, which covers my constituency. It has an excellent record. However, it cannot increase efficiency and productivity—that health authority has been cut to the bone. It is impossible for that authority to find the resources within its budget to meet the nurses' pay increase and the increase in civil service pay agreed by the Government. Therefore, cuts in clinical services must be made. It is a sick joke to my constituents to be told by the Chancellor that they should welcome a 2p cut in income tax. Such problems do not affect Stockton and North Tees alone; they affect district after district.
      I agree that, as the Chancellor said, "as and when it is prudent" taxation should be cut. Against the background I have described, we believe that it is not prudent, nor is this the time, to make taxation cuts. If it is possible, we shall achieve our priorities without increasing taxation.
      The Chancellor tried to goad me earlier about our position on tax cuts. We shall make our position absolutely clear before the general election, when our studies are complete. If we believe that we can achieve our
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      priorities on unemployment, on the Health Service, on education and on industry without going back to the old rates of tax, we shall certainly do so. We shall publish more detail and more information, as we have done about all our Budget proposals for the last three years, than any other Opposition party, including the Conservative party when it was in opposition. We have given more details and more costings of our proposals than any other party has given.
      Before the election, we shall publish full information for everybody, whether political parties or the public, to examine. We have published credible policies that could help get industry back on its feet, that could help to take care of those who have been hardest hit by the recession and above all that could start to get people back to work. Because the Government are not prepared to face up to those priorities, we shall vote against the clause.
      5.30 pm
      Sir Raymond Gower: While we understand much of the theme put forward by the hon. Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Wrigglesworth), I think that he tends to exaggerate what can be achieved by public spending. He seemed to imply that the more the Government spend the better it is for industry, and that any money released through tax concessions is injurious to the country. I challenge this view. I do not think that Britain achieved its pre-eminence over 100 years ago by the extent of its public expenditure. It was done by the active ingenuity of industrialists and the work force over a long period of time.
      The feeling of politicians in those days was that it was better to allow money to fructify in the hands of the people than to accumulate in the hands of the Government. All that the hon. Gentleman told us is at variance with that doctrine. The view of the Opposition parties is that only in the rarest circumstances are tax concessions of benefit. Psychologically, apart from any other reason, tax concessions have a splendid effect on the economy of any country.
      It is not just the exact impact of tax concessions that one must study. One must examine their effect on the mood of a country. In that context, we are apt to underestimate the benefit of what the Chancellor has done. Undoubtedly, when the Government came into office there was a period of great difficulty. In the first two or three years they could not do what we like doing best. We prefer to introduce tax concessions rather than tax increases. I can well recall the days of Labour Governments from 1964 to 1970 and fom 1974 to 1979. In each Budget we looked for the new imposts and the additional burdens that were being placed on industry and on individuals. How different things are today. In my right hon. Friend's Budget, and in the last two or three Budgets, we have seen what tax reductions we can identify. Surely that is much more in keeping with our record in the past and our hopes for the future.
      Clause 20 is much narrower than one might think from the speech of the hon. Member for Stockton, South. It is limited to one tax concession, namely, on income tax. I confess that I do not take the view that it is always best to make concessions in this way. Sometimes I would prefer other tax reliefs. For example, the tax thresholds might be raised, but that has been done in previous Budgets. If we

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      combine the tax concessions of recent years, we see that the benefits have been widely spread. Not least to benefit have been companies, which have had tax reductions.
      The hon. Member for Stockton, South referred to the difficulties of industry in his area. He implied that those difficulties all started with the Conservative Government of 1979. It was as though it was only then that we began to shed opportunities for people to be apprenticed in industry. The decline in apprenticeships spans a longer time. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the training programme should be expanded and that we should consider critically the Government's contribution to training and research in industry.
      In the short term, and perhaps in the moderately long term, it is desirable to increase the return of money to producers and earners. Of course we want them to have more, but I do not think that we should set the interests of earners against those who are not working. We should try to reduce the number of unemployed. Much has been done by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Employment. I foresee a considerable increase in training in the coming months and years. This has to be a gradual process. It cannot be achieved immediately in the context of this tax concession.
      I welcome the change in taxation. It is wrong always to describe it as a concession. It is valuable for all who are employed in industry and for industry itself. It will lead to an increase in earnings and lessen the pressure for wage and salary increases, which will he an additional benefit.
      Above all, psychologically this tax change is a stimulating, attractive feature of the Administration. Coupled with the increase in production that has occurred successively for many years, it should lead us after a long period of trial to believe that the economy is on the upturn. We should not be foolishly optimistic, but, nevertheless, we can look to the future with a soberly increased confidence. I hope the hon. Gentleman will share that view.
      Mr. Nick Raynsford: We are debating tax cuts. We have heard many strange and dubious claims advanced by Conservative Members. The most dubious and most suspect is the claim that tax cuts have helped and will help those on average and below average incomes. It is that issue that I wish to address first.
      First, that claim can be substantiated only by a highly selective presentation of statistics. We have heard such a travesty of statistics this afternoon in the claim that the Government have made tax cuts. When they are pressed, their definition changes — the ground rules change. Instead of talking about tax cuts, they say that they are talking about income tax cuts, neatly forgetting the wider tax implications of national insurance rates and VAT, which have both increased under this Government, despite the dishonest claim by the Prime Minister immediately before the 1979 general election that she would not increase VAT. As we all know, thereafter came that swingeing increase to 15 per cent.
      Secondly, in terms of overall tax, particularly for the lower paid, it is simply not true that there has been a reduction. They have borne the brunt of the much higher rates of indirect taxation, such as VAT, as well as increased national insurance contributions. In addition to the selective use of the word "tax" to limit it to income tax, there has also been selective amnesia as a convenient way of forgetting that the Government inherited a reduced
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      starting rate of taxation of 25 per cent. from the last Labour Government. Of course, that meant that the lower paid paid less income tax than now, even after eight years of Tory Government claims to be reducing the basic rate of taxation. That is a point readily forgotten by Conservative Members when they talk about the rate of income tax.
      Thirdly, Conservative Members ignore the wider implications of their policies, particularly those relating to social security benefits, which are especially relevant to the low-paid and those on below average earnings. When such people consider their disposable income, they must consider not only their income tax and national insurance. They also need to know how much income is left after their entitlement, or withdrawal of entitlement, to various means-tested benefits.
      The hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Fallon) — I am sorry that he is not in his place—made a remark earlier in the debate that I wish to pick up. He put forward the proposition that lower income tax would be an incentive to the low-paid to work. I wish to examine the detailed implications of the Government's policies for the low-paid. Over the past eight years their position has worsened dramatically. I shall illustrate that with a typical example of a person in low-paid employment who is paying tax and national insurance and receiving housing benefit. That benefit is widely available in the form of rate rebate for home owners and, more generally, in the form of rent and rate rebate for tenants.
      In that context, there has been a serious deterioration in the position of the low-paid. A tenant receiving a rent and rate rebate, and paying lax and national insurance in 1979, would have lost 62 per cent. of any increased income. That would have been his marginal rate of taxation after losing 33 per cent. tax, 6 per cent. national insurance, and 23 per cent. through the withdrawal of his means-tested benefit. The Chief Secretary will note that I am not quoting figures for a family on the lower, 25 per cent. rate of income tax. I am quoting figures for the basic rate of 33 per cent.
      By 1987 the position has changed as follows. The income tax rate has declined from 33 to 27 per cent. National insurance has risen from 6 to 9 per cent. and the loss of means-tested housing benefit has moved from 23 to 46 per cent.—it has doubled during the period. So a family or single person in that position will lose, not 62p out of every extra pound earned, but 82p. That reveals the hypocrisy of the Government's claim to be helping the low-paid. The Government have seriously increased the loss of income to someone in low-paid work who obtains a pay rise. Such a person is now losing at the fantastic rate of 82p in the pound. What greater disincentive could there be for people to seek higher paid work? That is the legacy of the present Government, but it is not the full story.
      5.45 pm
      Worse is to come. The Government's social security proposals, to be introduced if, by mischance, they remain in office next April, will mean that the rate of withdrawal of means-tested benefits will increase more steeply. As from next April, a person receiving housing benefit and paying tax and national insurance will lose no less than 87p out of any extra money that he earns. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of people in low-paid work, to whom the Government's policies have meant, not cuts in taxation, but swingeing increases in the rate at which

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      they lose the extra pay that they earn — hardly an incentive to encourage the low-paid to work; on the contrary, a steeper withdrawal of benefit.
      What a contrast that presents to the treatment of the wealthiest 5 or 10 per cent. of the population, who have done very well indeed out of the selective tax cuts that the Government have made. For them, a rate of taxation of 87p in the £ would have been described, in the Chancellor's earlier felicitous phrase, as penal. The Government regard such taxation as wrong and as a disincentive to the richest people in the country to stay in Britain and work. Yet the Government who take that line with the richest are happy to apply that penal rate of taxation to the poorest people in employment — not the poorest in society, but the poorest in employment. That reveals the hypocrisy behind the Government's stance on tax cuts.
      The Government's policy is grossly unfair, but it is not only its unfairness that leads us to oppose the proposed cut in the standard rate of income tax that is incorporated in the Bill. We do so, as other speakers have said, because of the waste of opportunity that it represents. It is a wasted chance to use the £2·5 billion that is involved to help to revive the country's economy. The Budget has failed lamentably to tackle Britain's key problems. It has failed, as other speakers have made clear, to remedy the continuing scandal of unemployment. Greater priority should have been given to measures to reduce unemployment dramatically. It is not enough to fiddle the figures in the hope that they will fall below 3 million some time later this year. We need concrete measures that are designed to get people back to work of the kind that the Labour party is advocating in its policy to put 1 million people back in employment in the next two years.
      We have witnessed the neglect of the Health Service and the tragedy that has beset one of Britain's most important and best loved institutions in recent years as a result of Government policies. It has affected my constituency, too. The Health Service has been denuded of funds, the staff have become increasingly demoralised and hospitals have been threatened with closure. Three hospitals serve my constituency, one of which, the West London hospital, which has a fine reputation for dealing with maternity cases, has been under threat of closure for the past nine months. The threat has been postponed only by a temporary additional injection of finance to enable the decision to be postponed, because it would be electorally embarrassing to take it immediately before a general election.
      Charing Cross hospital is short of 150 nurses because they cannot afford to find accommodation and live in central London. I spoke to them about the need for additional pay. I am pleased that the Government have agreed to implement the pay review body's recommendations immediately this year—would that they had done so in previous years when there was no election on the horizon, and would that they had agreed then to implement the recommendations promptly and in full from the date on which they should have applied. At least this year they have done so, but that is not by any means sufficient.
      Last week a nurse in my constituency said to me, "I cannot afford to continue in the profession. One of my friends who also qualified recently has left the job and become a receptionist to a solicitor. Now she is paid more
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      than twice as much as I am." In areas such as Fulham, where there are acute housing problems, it is hardly surprising that the Health Service is bleeding to death, because key staff are leaving and wards are being closed. That is happening in our key public services.
      Housing, which we debated yesterday, is a further factor. Government policy makes financial nonsense. They have cut expenditure on housing and are not building the new houses that are needed. The DHSS is spending more money than would be necessary to build new houses on subsidising private landlords who are exploiting the housing shortage by offering squalid bed-and-breakfast accommodation at an extortionate cost to homeless families who should be housed. That is only one consequence of the Government's tragic failure to invest money in homes for the needy. The Government are pouring money down the drain on absurd and ineffective subsidies rather than investing it in homes that are needed. That is a further damning comment on the Government's failure.
      The Government's record on pensioners is no better. Last year pensioners were given a 40p increase in their pension, which they rightly condemned universally as an insult. This year the Government have felt more generous and have offered an 80p increase. Most of my pensioners know that that is just as insulting and demeaning as last year's increase. The Government's priorities are wrong. They can afford policies that give large sums in tax concessions to the wealthy, yet they cannot afford to give an increase of more than 80p to pensioners. Our pensioners receive the lowest level of pension of any country in western Europe, except for Greece. What a damning comment on the legacy of the Government.
      The Government's policies have failed across the board and investment is needed in many areas, but has not been forthcoming. In the Budget the Government have chosen to use their money in a way that fails to tackle our real problems and needs. For that reason, we reject the 2p cut in income tax. It is not the right decision or priority, it does not concentrate resources where they are most needed and it is not right for Britain. Therefore, we shall vote against it.
      Mr. Tim Yeo: The hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Raynsford) began his speech by saying that this was a debate on income tax. He then diverted to housing benefit—a subject on which I know he is an authority—the Health Service and pensioners. He was reluctant to talk about income tax.
      The hon. Gentleman referred to the lower rate of income tax that existed before 1979. It was a rate of 25 per cent. which applied only to a small number of people in a fairly narrow income band. Perhaps he is reluctant to talk about income tax because, if the Committee approves this clause, as I hope it will, a rate of tax of only 27p in the pound will apply, not only to a narrow income band of people on well below average earnings, but to everyone who earns up to £17,900 a year, which is well over one and a half times national average earnings.
      If the Government are re-elected, as I am sure they will be, no one can be in any doubt that it will not be long before we have a basic rate of income tax of 25 per cent. for everyone earning up to one and a half times and perhaps even twice national average earnings, as the Labour Government had, but only for a small group of people who were earning well below national average

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      earnings. Therefore, perhaps it is not surprising that the hon. Gentleman did not wish to address income tax in great depth.
      The hon. Gentleman also referred to national insurance contributions. I appreciate that he has not been in the House for long—indeed, for an even shorter period than me — so perhaps he does not recall that in 1985 the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced substantially reduced employee and employer national insurance contributions for people on below average wages. The starting rate of employee national insurance contributions, with which we are most concerned here, has been cut to 5 per cent. by the Government.
      Mr. Raynsford: May I remind the hon. Gentleman that, when I compared the 1979 and present levels of income tax, I deliberately chose not to use as my example the 25p lower rate band? I simply made the point that that rate had applied and that Conservative Members were forgetful about it. For comparable reasons, I did not use the starting point for the lower rate of national insurance contributions because it, too, applies only at the bottom end of the income scale. For fairness, I chose the standard rate of income tax, not the lowest rate that applied in 1979 and the national insurance rate which applied to the overwhelming majority of people in paid employment—9 per cent.
      Mr. Yeo: I suspect that the electorate will also be forgetful when everyone earning up to one and a half times national average earnings is enjoying a rate of tax of 25 per cent. Not many people will recall that, under a Labour Government, a small group enjoyed that rate of income tax. People on average earnings, about whom the hon. Gentleman said he was concerned, have the prospect of paying less income tax now and in the future than they paid before 1979.
      The hon. Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Wrigglesworth) also began by saying that the debate was about income tax cuts, but he spent about 25 minutes on all the usual SDP sob stories. We had a great deal about manufacturing industry, several minutes on the National Health Service and several minutes on education and training, but without any mention of the policies of the president of the SDP. Finally, he found time to mention income tax. He could not answer my right hon. Friend's question about the SDP's position on income tax cuts, presumably because there is still confusion within the SDP about whether income tax should be higher or lower. If the hon. Gentleman were present, I would offer him a further opportunity to clarify that.
      The hon. Gentleman explained that his studies were not yet complete. No doubt he has left the Chamber to rush off and join his colleagues in their work on ascertaining whether it is prudent to be in favour of higher or lower income tax. Indeed, it is rather a touching picture. One can imagine them closeted in a room, perhaps in Cowley street, with towels around their heads, sweating it out and trying to work out their policy on this issue, possibly assisted by a few woolly-headed academic economists.
      I hope that the leader of the SDP has not been aware that that work is not complete, because only about four weeks ago he was predicting that the general election would be on 7 May. Where would we be now if, halfway through the general election campaign, the SDP were still
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      telling us that its studies were not complete and it could not tell the country whether it wanted higher or lower income tax?
      The hon. Member for Stockton, South seemed upset that, over the past four years, Government policy had not matched up to what he thought Conservative party rhetoric had been before 1983. He seemed to be trying to fight the 1983 general election all over again. If he does that, we can undoubtedly look forward to a similar result. Again, if he were present, I would ask him whether he had any criticism of Government policy since 1983, because presumably that is the period on which the electorate will shortly be asked for its verdict.
      The hon. Gentleman said that he would favour income tax cuts when they were prudent. Unemployment is falling, interest rates are falling, the PSBR is falling—
      Mr. Austin Mitchell: The Government are falling.
      Mr. Yeo: —output is rising, productivity is rising and the pound is rising. The background does not look too bad to me. I wonder what else the hon. Member for Stockton, South would like to have before he could consider that the circumstances made it prudent to permit tax cuts.
      At the start of our debate, the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) apologised for the absence of his right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley). We have still had no explanation of where his right hon. Friend is, but perhaps that will be vouchsafed before the end of the debate. The apology raised my hopes a little, because I have listened to too many economic debates here in which the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook has opened for the Opposition; and I thought that an hon. Member as widely respected as the hon. Member for Dagenham would perhaps offer the House something a little more worthy of the occasion.
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      I was very disappointed by the hon. Member's speech, which was unworthy of so intelligent a man. The voice was certainly the voice of the hon. Member for Dagenham, but the words sounded to me rather like the words of the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook. [Interruption.] There will be plenty of time before the general election for the hon. Member for Dagenham to decide on his position and see whether he wishes to stay in the same party as the right hon. Member for Sparkbrook. No doubt the hon. Member for Fulham will have been able to think about that too, as will the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair). The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) may also wish to make his position clear after the election—if he is still a Member of the House.
      No amount of evasion or smearing will disguise from the voters the Labour commitment to higher taxation—certainly to higher levels of income tax, and probably to higher levels of other taxes as well. The Labour party cannot disguise from the voters that the higher taxes that it would have to propose would undermine incentives for workers at every level of pay.
      One point which has so far largely escaped the attention of those who have spoken is that the amount of resources used in tax cuts this year is very much less than the amount of resources used in the autumn statement to increase public spending last year. The Government's economic decisions over the past year have focused on how to spend the substantially increased resources which the success of

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      their management of the economy has generated. With the economy growing steadily for the fifth or sixth year in succession and with tax revenues rising very rapidly, partly as a result of the additional incentives offered by low tax rates, the Government have been faced with this agreeable choice of whether to increase public spending or cut taxation or do both.
      It is in very sharp contrast to the situation ten years ago, when the Labour party was in power and was being propped up by the Liberal party, and when the choice was always whether to cut spending or increase taxation or, if it could invent them, what totally new taxes to impose. We have gone to the opposite extreme: the debate today is about whether we increase spending or cut taxation, and in the past year we have managed to do both. But we have used twice as much money to increase public spending — an almost £5 billion increase in public spending last autumn—as we have used to reduce taxation; and, at the same time, there has been a reduction in the public sector borrowing requirement, a reduction of an amount which again is greater than the cost of the tax cut that we are now debating.
      So when it comes to sharing out the resources created by our success in expanding the economy, the lion's share will go to improving the quality and standard of our public services through increased public expenditure. And all that is quite apart from the excellent work done by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary in making sure that we get better value for money from the spending that this Government have maintained.
      All this — the combination of lower taxes, higher spending and lower borrowing requirement—is itself a very remarkable achievement, given the economic background against which it occurs. If we had listened to Opposition Members 18 months ago, in August 1985, we would have heard them say rather grudgingly that such economic success as we had achieved then was almost entirely due to the income from North sea oil. Our economy was said to be propped up by these North sea oil revenues. But what happened to those revenues after the autumn of 1985? They were reduced by about 50 per cent., with the collapse in the price of oil. One would have expected, if the Opposition assessment of our economic position at the end of 1985 had been accurate, some appalling crisis to hit our economy—a total collapse in sterling, a massive rise in interest rates, leading to huge cuts in public spending. Yet none of that has happened, and we have gone on cutting taxation and increasing spending. The pound is steady — indeed, strong. As a result of that, and of lower public sector borrowing, we are seeing substantial reductions in interest rates.
      The income tax cuts are a continuation of a policy which has been followed by this Government steadily since 1979—that of reducing the rate of income tax and also of increasing substantially in real terms the threshold at which the basic rate becomes payable. That is another important aspect of this year's Finance Bill, which rather gives the lie to the criticism of the hon. Member for Fulham, when we see that there is no increase in the thresholds at which the higher rates become payable but that the basic rate threshold has been increased in line with the retail price index.
      That comes on top of an increase in real terms, during the life of this Government, of the basic rate threshold of
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      more than 20 per cent. This whole pattern of income tax cuts has been a recognition of the vital importance of incentives — incentives which are now recognised as necessary at all levels of income. This is important at the lower end, because there is no doubt that a married man with two children who is earning perhaps two thirds of average earnings — £120 or £130 a week — is not very much better off after tax and other stoppages at the end of the week than he would be if he were living entirely on social security. The gap between his take-home pay as a full-time wage earner and what he would get if he chose to live on social security is nothing like as wide as we would like it to be.
      The way to overcome that problem is not to have a series of massively inflationary wage increases, which would feed through into prices and undermine the considerable gains that we have made in our competitive position. Nor is it to cut the level of social security benefits. The right way to widen the gap between what one earns in work and what one receives by way of social security is to reduce the burden of taxation and, in my view, also to reduce the burden of national insurance contributions which the lower-paid workers have to pay. As I said earlier, the Government two years ago made quite significant reductions in the rate of employees' national insurance contributions. I very much welcome those and hope that consideration will be given in the next Parliament to going further down that route.
      The advantage — I am sure that it is one that will impress itself particularly on my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary — of the cuts in national insurance contributions is that they can be targeted very accurately, now that we have the categories in which people are liable to lower rates of national insurance contribution: it is an extraordinarily cost-effective form of giving tax relief.
      It is also important that we go further down the route of reducing employers' national insurance contributions as well, particularly for the people in the lower-paid categories. The accuracy with which money can be targeted in these two ways is greater than anything that can be done by way of income tax. There is no doubt that the changes made in 1985 have helped to stimulate the growth in employment since then.
      The fact that there are many jobs in both the service and the manufacturing sectors which command wages at slightly below national average levels, and the fact that it has become cheaper for employers to take on labour for those earning such wages and more worthwhile for individuals to accept such jobs, have undoubtedly contributed to the reduction in unemployment.
      I have no doubt that we shall be able to reduce the basic rate of income tax to 25 per cent. before long; indeed, many Conservative Members hope that it will become much lower than that in the lifetime of the next Parliament and the one after that, and during all the decades of happy Conservative Governments to which we look forward. If we can reduce income tax rates sufficiently, we shall completely remove any difficulty relating to thresholds. If tax rates are down to 20 per cent. no one will be too fussed about the precise level at which he starts to pay.
      Mr. Austin Mitchell: How will that affect the VAT level?
      Mr. Yeo: The reduction to 20 per cent. can be achieved as a result of the steady growth in the economy.
      Mr. Mitchell: That is what the Government said in 1979.
      Mr. Yeo: During the present Parliament, rates have come down by 3 per cent. without any increase in VAT. We can all look forward to further cuts in the basic rate and, in due course, in the higher rates.
      However, cutting the income tax rate is not the only income tax consideration; the cuts must be accompanied by tax reforms. I believe that, during the next Parliament, we should pay close attention to the ideas floated last year in the Green Paper dealing with the reform of personal taxation. Perhaps, after consultation, it will not be thought appropriate to adopt precisely the suggestions outlined in that document. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that it is very desirable for us to revise the present taxation treatment of married women.
      I know that an issue dear to the heart of my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir B. Rhys Williams) is the merging of income tax and national insurance contributions. Indeed, I hope that he will touch on that subject if he catches your eye, Mr. Armstrong. I entirely share his interest in the matter. To the average wage earner, both contributions are simply stoppages in his pay packet. Few people who have grown up since the welfare state and such benefits as the National Health Service have become part of our culture, and a fixed element in our society, can distinguish between national insurance and income tax payments. I believe that substantial administrative savings could be derived from merging the two; it would also allow a more rational approach to policies and the setting of rates for both tax and national insurance. I hope that, when we proceed with further tax cuts in the next Parliament, we will at the same time give attention to taxation reforms.
      6.15 pm
      There is one other point that I wish to make about income tax cuts, and I am sorry to say that it is a negative point. One category of organisation in this country loses money as a result of income tax cuts. I refer to charities, which are the unique losers from a policy of switching from direct to indirect taxation. I entirely support the switch that we are making, and I applaud the substantial new tax concessions given to charities by the present Government—not least the payroll giving scheme, which came into force earlier this month. A number of organisations, including the charities VAT and tax reform group, of which I am chairman, are trying actively to promote the scheme, and we all hope that it will be a substantial success.
      I welcome the remarks made by several Treasury Ministers and the efforts that they are making to publicise the scheme, for it deserves our support. I hope that before long it will be possible for hon. Members to choose a charity to which they can make donations from their payroll, provided that the Fees Office can make the necessary arrangements.
      However, it must be said that a lower basic rate of income tax—we are talking only about the basic rate—reduces the income that charities receive from covenants. The present Government, in the Finance Act 1980, provided a substantial concession on covenants by cutting the period for which they must be taken out to qualify for tax relief from seven to four years. That helped many charities to promote the use of covenants as a form of charitable giving. Covenants have grown in importance,
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      and are now a significant element in the income of many charities. Unfortunately, however, when a cut is made in the basic rate of tax, the amount of tax that the charities recover is directly reduced. As a result of this 2p cut, there will be a reduction running into seven figures for charities — a loss of some millions of pounds from covenant income.
      I mention that point, because I hope that my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary will keep it in mind when he considers the other requests that charities make for relief from VAT. It is not difficult to see that charities are losing income on the one side as a result of the higher rate of taxation, and on the other side are exposed to any extention of the VAT base. During the lifetime of this Parliament, one or two extensions have affected charities. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor for responding this year —and even more so last year—to some of the suggestions made by the charities VAT and tax reform group for VAT concessions. That has been immensely helpful, and the dialogue that the group has had with both Ministers and Customs and Excise officials about VAT problems has also been helpful.
      I urge my right hon. Friend to remember that, as he achieves these desirable reductions in the basic rate, one group—the only one in our society —loses money as result. I hope that that loss will be recognised when charities make requests in future years for sympathetic consideration of further concessions.
      Mr. Tim Smith: Surely the net effect of the various changes will be beneficial to charities. If they can get their act together on the payroll giving scheme, and can persuade employers and employees to participate, the scope for increased revenue is very substantial, and could easily outweigh the net disbenefits through reductions in the standard rate of tax.
      Mr. Yeo: My hon. Friend is right. The potential effect is there. The charities VAT and tax reform group will be monitoring through its extensive membership of charities how much income is received under the payroll scheme. It will take some time to build up, but after a couple of years we shall have some impression of whether the scheme is taking off. I hope that it will. There is a good chance, but it is not certain. What is certain is that there is an immediate loss of income from covenants. But if we monitor the position and it builds up well, the charities will join the Government in celebrating. If it does not build up as well as we hope, the charities will wish to go back the Treasury and discuss whether the scheme can be improved.
      I was glad to note that the maximum amount that individuals can give under the scheme had been increased to £120 a year from the £100 that was in last year's Finance Act. I hope that my right hon. Friend will forgive me when I say that I moved an amendment last year to increase the amount to £120. One of my hon. Friends gave us a learned and careful argument about why it was not desirable. However, I am glad that wiser counsels have subsequently prevailed.
      I strongly commend clause 20 to the House. I believe that it is the right policy for the country, and that it will be extremely popular with the voters. I am particularly grateful to Opposition Members for allowing us to have such an extended debate on what seems to me an election-winning issue.
      Mr. Matthew Taylor: Various hon. Members have said that this is a debate about taxation rather than about such issues as education and health. However, we should discuss how the £2·5 billion could best be used and what our constituents are saying that money should be used for. It should also be a debate about prudence. That money could be used for long-term investment in training and in the National Health Service, to ensure that people are properly treated, live longer and are comfortable, through changes in the benefits system. We should debate whether we can prudently spend money on tax cuts when we desperately need to invest in the future of this country.
      We should also debate whether it is prudent to make tax cuts on the basis of short-term revenues from North sea oil, the consumer boom and privatisation. None of those factors can be sustained in the longer term, and all are mortgaging our ability to invest in the real priorities.
      We could be spending that money on education. Imagine how much could be achieved in education with only a fraction of the £2·5 billion. We should be taking this opportunity to invest in adequate training for our young people.
      Despite the Government's training schemes, too many of our young people possess no qualification after they have completed their training; therefore, they cannot obtain jobs. Employers say that they can make use of people who have been trained, so money should be invested in genuine rather than mock training schemes.
      There should also be investment in basic educational needs—in providing books and the back-up that is so badly needed for the GCSE. Teachers should be provided with the support and the backing for which they ask, and the Government should ensure that, in areas such as mine, schools no longer have outside toilets that freeze up during the winter, with the result that children have to be sent home instead of being educated. Schools should not have to use Portakabins. In parts of Cornwall they have to be closed and the children sent home because they are dangerous in high winds. These are the alternative priorities that we must discuss.
      As for the infrastructure, imagine what a difference it would make if the roads were built that manufacturing industry says it needs if it is to compete effectively. And how much more of a difference it would make than an extra £1 or £2 in the pocket each week if people had a sewerage system that worked. Is it genuinely prudent not to invest in a sewerage system that is decaying and falling apart and that in many areas will soon be more expensive to replace than any Government can conceivably afford within a reasonable period?
      There are villages in my constituency that still do not have a sewerage system. In the village of Gorran Haven there is sewage in the streets, yet South West Water does not have the money urgently to rebuild the sewerage system for that village.
      The National Health Service urgently needs further investment. Everybody knows that NHS hospitals must be given the money to cope with the increasing demands on their services. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Wrigglesworth) referred to the growing needs of the NHS. We acknowledge that the Government have increased spending on the NHS, but it has not been increased sufficiently to keep pace with the growing demand from an increasingly aging population and to allow the NHS to develop its other services.
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      We should provide proper support for the creation of jobs that would enable this country to be more competitive. If any hon. Member denies that fact, he has only to come to my constituency. Assisted area status was removed from Truro and St. Austell, and it has led to a haemorrhaging of the manufacturing base in that area. Industry is closing down or moving out. Admittedly, the grants were only marginal but they made all the difference between success and failure.
      Enterprise corporations and boards invested in manufacturing industry. The investment was marginal, but it made all the difference between success and failure.
      Many jobs were created at a very low cost. With well over 3 million people still unemployed, that is a priority that we should be considering.
      As for the taxation system, we should not consider simply cutting the taxes of those who are fortunate enough to pay them because they are in work. Instead, we should review the tax and benefits system. As a person's income increases, he can sometimes lose money. My constituency is a very low wage area. On average, wages are £36 a week lower than in the rest of the country. Families on the dole, with children, could obtain work and earn a living, thinking that they would benefit financially from doing so, whereas they could lose financially. It would be prudent for the future of this country if we invested in such priorities. It is not prudent to have a short-term spend for votes by putting a few pounds a week into people's pockets. It cannot be sustained in the long term.
      We have been asked whether the alliance is in favour of cutting or increasing taxes. Yesterday, the Prime Minister was asked in this Chamber whether or not she would increase VAT. She said that no Government could say in advance whether or not they would have to increase taxes. Is it strange therefore that we should adopt a prudent stance too, and look at the circumstances as they are?
      Of course we are not in favour of increasing taxation for taxation's sake. If it were prudent and the priorities allowed us to do so, we should cut taxation. If the Chancellor could show that the important points that I have made on education, health and benefits could be put into place without taxation having to be increased, we should welcome it and accept it. However, the Chancellor has not done that. He is cutting taxation without putting these principles into effect and without acting on these priorities. He is not investing prudently in our future. That is why we shall vote against the clause.
      The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John MacGregor): The hon. Gentleman has referred to the Liberal party's taxation policy. Both sides of the House have asked the Liberal party about its tax policy for the coming year. We have laid out in the Finance Bill precisely what our taxation policy is. Will the hon. Gentleman say what precisely his party would do about tax this year?
      Mr. Taylor: We shall vote against the clause in the context of the Government's announced spending plans. As for our plans, we have said clearly that, if we can fund our priorities without increasing taxation, naturally we will do so. But if we cannot, we are prepared to increase taxation because we believe that that is the priority for which the people are asking, for which this nation is crying out and which this nation needs.
      6.30 pm
      Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: I spoke at some length on Second Reading, so it is not my intention to detain the Committee at great length in this important debate on the standard rate of tax. To some extent, Opposition Members have sought to make this debate a choice between raising the personal rate of tax and reducing it: there has been criticism of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer for his decision to make a substantial reduction in the basic rate of tax. That is really an artificial debate in view of the buoyancy of the revenue and the ample scope which exists for tax cuts at present. Reductions in taxation are clearly indicated by the health of the British economy, but the Committee has to recognise that we are talking about just one Budget in a series. It is more than likely that my right hon. Friend will introduce another Finance Bill within a few weeks, and certainly before the end of the summer. Therefore, the Committee ought to be taking a long view.
      I want to touch on one or two subjects on which I did not go into sufficient detail on Second Reading. How much is a suitable reduction in tax? My right hon. Friend the Chancellor surprised the commentators by making a reduction of only 2p in the pound. His decision was absolutely right. because he took the view that the benefits of the buoyancy of the revenue should be offered back to the public through a reduction in the Government's programme of borrowing on capital account. The prudence of that decision was obvious.
      The decision having been made that there should also be a substantial reduction in the level of personal taxation — taxation on current account — it is right that the Committee should look at the ways in which that reduction is applied in the present Budget and should also consider the ways in which further reductions in the pressure of taxation on the public may be dealt with in the future.
      In this Budget, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor chose to make a general reduction by making a reduction in the basic rate. Before he comes to his next Budget, I should like him to consider whether there are advantages in making reductions in tax selectively. Obviously, a general reduction in the basic rate is a stimulus to the economy: it simplifies the whole proceeding in the minds of the electorate. But a reduction in the basic rate of tax goes preferentially to single people, because the system we use at present of granting handsome allowances to married couples means that single people have more pounds on which their tax is levied. Therefore, when the basic rate is reduced, single people stand to gain more than people on the same income who are married, and who enjoy the benefit of allowances which exempt a substantial part of their income from taxation.
      A reduction in the basic rate of income tax goes to all taxpayers, but it does not directly benefit those who are not in the tax net anyway because their income is below the threshold. I should therefore like my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to consider the possible advantages next time of applying reductions in taxation selectively. There are various ways in which selective reductions in personal taxation might be made.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, South (Mr. Yeo) dealt with the desirability of tidying up the anomalies of the national insurance system. I have campaigned for a very long time for the end of the national insurance
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      system as it now exists, because it seems to be a ridiculous and unconvincing farce and a time-consuming waste of clerical effort.
      I pointed out on Second Reading that the Committee must consider that on account of their national insurance contributions, which for most people in employment are at the rate of 9 per cent., the effective rate of tax on earned income is 36 per cent., whereas on investment income it is to be reduced to 27 per cent. There is something wrong with a tax system that gives substantial advantages to investment income and leaves the rate of tax on the people who create the wealth at a substantially higher rate.
      I also draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to what I believe to be the compelling advantages of reducing higher rate tax and indeed of abolishing it altogether. In making reductions in taxation, we should have a very clear idea of the priorities. They must be to create or to improve the incentives to work for the mass of the population, to encourage people to save and to invest, and to relieve need, bearing in mind that workers on low wages with families may still be incurring hardship in spite of the general improvement in standards of living of the population which we can all see and which we all welcome.
      Coming back to higher rate tax, we see the way capitalism works in the far east and in other countries where there is not this oppressive and vindictive burden on the people who contribute most to the creation of wealth. It is not sufficient to talk about the reduction in higher rate tax or to congratulate ourselves, as the Government are perfectly entitled to do, on the significant reduction which has already been made in the incidence of higher rate tax. We should declare ourselves determined to abolish this vindictive and unnecessary tax altogether.
      It seems to me that, were this move to be made by a Conservative Government, everybody would gain and nobody would lose. Releasing the incentive to work and to invest of the most active elements— the people who are most able to contribute the highest degree of judgment and energy in the creation of wealth—would benefit the economy and must therefore be in the interests of the entire population. We should get rid of this inexcusable and vindictive anomaly.
      One could say many things about the redistribution of income which would not be appropriate under this clause. But one ought to consider the possibility of reductions in the impact of tax through the tax allowances. The Green Paper which was floated some months ago on the subject of the taxation of husbands and wives did not arrive at a satisfactory compromise. I do not think it was workable in administrative terms and it would probably have proved costly without achieving the result that we really want—that women should be completely independent an
      Women should be perfectly free to make their own tax declarations directly to the tax collector without having to declare what their sex or status is. If my right hon. and hon. Friends are nervous about going the whole way to that reform at once, although I think it would be an extremely popular one, why not make a beginning by allowing women to have their own completely separate investment income, unaggregated with the investment income of their husbands?
      Child benefit is the amalgamation of the old family allowance and the child tax allowances which were

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      introduced into the income tax system before the end of the 18th century by William Pitt. If we increase child benefit, we are making a reduction in the effective taxation of families, but we are also extending it to the people who are not in the tax net and therefore, by definition, are at the bottom of the income scale. It must be right to give priority to families, if only because of the assistance that we would be giving to incentives. An increase in the rate of child benefit is the cheapest way to improve the incentive to work for people at the low end of the income scale. It is a matter for regret that this aspect is increasingly neglected in the arguments about future reductions in taxation.
      For the electorate, the choice is plain. Do the people themselves have the priority? Do the Government consider that a reduction in taxation is important, or is it more important that we place bigger resources in the hands of the gentlemen in Whitehall? Do we continue with prudent expenditure policies, keeping down the necessary burdens on the public by restraining the tendency of Government expenditure; or do we let the bureaucrats start squandering our resources once again? I warmly endorse the Government's general policy. I shall support the vote to maintain the clause as it stands in the Bill, but I trust that my right hon. and hon. Friends will consider my points in framing their policies for the future.
      Mr. Austin Mitchell: This governmental obsession with tax cuts equals incentives equals the key to economic regeneration was always one of the more curious aspects of the Government's doubtful philosophy. It was interesting to note that the Chancellor did not claim that the economic revival, on which he prides himself and which he says is the product of his policies as the greatest Chancellor since the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), was due to tax cuts. He said that it was a consequence of Government policies, of which tax cuts were a part, but even in that he was wrong. The type of tax cuts of which the clause is the final triumph—or perhaps for this Parliament, the final solution—has nothing to do with the improvement in economic activity that is occurring.
      The philosophy of tax cuts equals incentives was best characterised by Galbraith, who pointed out that the philosophy really argues that the rich are not working hard enough because they do not have enough money. We all know that the poor are not working hard enough because they are overpaid and are not allowed to price themselves into jobs, so the simple solution is to transfer money from the poor to the rich and all will be well. Then incentives will flourish, the economy will blossom, and things will pick up. The solution was as daft and as simple-minded as that.
      Before the 1979 election we pointed out that the promise to cut taxation, which is the centrepiece of the Government's campaign, was a distortion and misleading because the Government could not cut taxation—they had either to shift the burden from direct to indirect taxation or to cut services and Government spending in some fashion, which they were not prepared to define. Those two points remain valid in terms of the Chief Secretary's promise to cut the tax rate to 25p in the pound. Implicit in that is a statement that the Government will either cut services and public spending in a way that will
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      be painful for the economy and the people or—I am sure that they will do this—shift the burden from direct to indirect taxation by an increase in VAT and by spreading VAT to a range of commodities that are now zero rated.
      I hope that the Chief Secretary will tell us which of those alternatives will be followed if progress is maintained towards a 25p tax rate. Inevitably, it must be one or the other. I see no way in which the dilemma that we posed in 1979 and the promised tax cuts then does not apply to the Chief Secretary's promise of further tax cuts to follow in the clause.
      Mr. MacGregor: Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that the 2p reduction in the basic rate, which we are discussing, is being achieved this year without any increase in indirect taxes?
      6.45 pm
      Mr. Mitchell: I shall come to what has provided the Chancellor with an opportunity to make that tax cut this year. Any family earning up to 1·5 times average earnings is paying more tax and a higher proportion of income tax than it was in the last year for which the Labour Government were responsible. There has been merely a shift to other forms of taxation rather than genuine tax cuts. That is happening even with this clause.
      The Government's philosophy was fallacious. If the tax burden was too high—that was never proved—because the economy was carrying the burden of the tax required by the services, for example, health and education, which the public demanded, which are essential to an advanced industrial economy, and which are better in other countries, the solution was to expand the economy and not to interfere with the economic balance by the transfer of the burden to other forms of taxation. The Government have harmed the economy. A Government who cut their spending automatically cut their revenue, which is what the Government did.
      By their policies, especially those pursued from 1979 to 1981 — the nadir of the Government's economic performance, when they inflicted incalculable harm on the economy — they effectively increased the need for taxation. Even the extra revenue from North sea oil was insufficient to prevent the burden of taxation from pressing more heavily on those on average earnings than it did in 1979. Because the Government had closed so much capacity, because they had destroyed so many jobs in manufacturing industry—1·8 million jobs, or 28 per cent. of employment in manufacturing industry—they had to pay out so much to keep those resources idle and people out of work that their economic policy was effectively self-defeating.
      Taking account of the 1979 increase in VAT to 15 per cent. the average earner is paying £6·36 more a week in taxation—a higher proportion of his income—than he was under the Labour Government. The same thing is implicit in the Chancellor's commitment. This is part of the hidden agenda, which involves the increase in VAT and the widening of its range. I take it that the pressure for this change arises, in part, from the legal action which the Commissioners initiated against us, and which will be heard in September. It arises also from Lord Cockfield's brazen schemes in the European Community to end zero rating and align the rates in the Community. Implicit in that is the increase in the burden of VAT on every family,

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      because it will mean VAT on food. Yesterday, the Prime Minister declined to say that she said that a responsible Government could not commit themselves to not increasing VAT. yet it is interesting to note that previously she had specifically committed herself to not increasing VAT.
      If the right hon. Lady could commit herself quite specifically before—she did it most notably on 12 June 1984—and say to Parliament "We shall not end zero rating on food," why can she not now commit herself in the same honest and honourable way for the Parliament that is to come? Why could she make a commitment for the 1984 Parliament, but be unable to make one in 1987 for the next Parliament? It is because there is an intention, which the Government are not prepared now to avow, to increase VAT and to shift the burden from direct taxation, which the Chief Secretary wants, to indirect taxation. That is the only way in which the Government can get their tax cuts.
      The clear reason why the Chancellor is in a position to make tax cuts this year is that he has been forced to accept — he resisted it all the way — a major proposal put forward by the Labour party in 1982 to get the pound down. Although he resisted every fall with increased interest rates, the pound has come down substantially. Since the end of 1982 it has come down by between 20 and 30 per cent. At times it has come down 10 per cent. on the exchange rate estimates in last year's Budget. This has meant an increase in exports, particularly to the American market—incidentally, such exports will be threatened by the fall in the dollar—an increase in economic activity and an increase in corporation tax, which, added to the present credit boom, allows the Chancellor to cut 2p off income tax.
      Like so much of the political situation at the moment, it is part of the window-dressing that is accumulating in the Government's window to lure voters. A prime element on display in the show window is 2p off tax and 2p more to follow if the Chief Secretary is still Chief Secretary after the next election. I hope that electors will look, not at the shop window with the somewhat shopsoiled and tarnished array of goodies, but at the creaking, collapsing, groaning building behind it — the building that is the British economy. I hope that the electors will ignore the window and the lights and look at the building. It has not had maintenance or investment. It is creaking, shabby, shoddy and disintegrating. It is a shop in which many rooms are not used because capacity has been closed. Far too many people live in far too inadequate conditions in the cellar—the three quarter society—that the Government have run. That is the reality behind the goods that the Government are shoving into the shop window.
      As the Chancellor, in his vainglorious fashion, struts outside the shop trying to tell passers by that it is one of the most successful economies in the world, voters know differently. They can see the reality of the building, the level of unemployment, the shoddy services and the cuts that have had such a serious effect on many aspects of our lives. It points to what the Chancellor should have done with the money that has been devoted in the Budget to tax cuts.
      We need to get expansion going at about double the present rate. We are running a half-cock economy. In fact, the half-cock economy is supporting a three quarter society. The fact that the economy is half cocked means that the growth rate is inadequate to bring down the level
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      of unemployment. Even in the 1930s we could manage a growth rate that was almost double the present one. That brought unemployment down in the 1930s. At this level of growth there will be no substantial and sustained fall in unemployment. It will remain to scar the country. That is what the Chancellor should have done with the money that is being devoted to tax cuts.
      The Chancellor should have used the money to stimulate investment and to use it for benign and beneficial public purposes such as housing, to expand public spending to stimulate the economy. Every computer model shows that there is a far greater return of jobs and economic stimulus from public spending and using it for investment purposes than from tax cuts.
      The Chancellor could have used the money to remedy many of the deficiencies that have been allowed to emerge in the welfare support system. He should have paid it to pensioners and to beneficiaries, particularly the long-term unemployed. That is the best and most effective means of stimulating the economy. They, with no fat to live on, spend money directly and give a more immediate and prompt economic stimulus. That is exactly what the Chancellor should have done, by expanding the housing programme, public sector spending and the benefits available to those who are deprived in the shoddy society that the Government have helped to create. It is a three quarter society, running on the basis of a half-cock economy, managed by a 40 per cent. Government It is not good enough for the country. The clause is not good enough for the Bill. We shall oppose it.
      Mr. Maples: Listening to the speeches made by the hon. Members for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) and for Dagenham (Mr. Gould), one would think that the Chancellor had devoted all the fiscal resources at his command over the past six months to tax cuts. In fact he has not. In the autumn, he announced a nearly £5 billion increase in public expenditure. In his Budget, in which he had another £5.5 billion, £3 billion came off the PSBR, which has led directly to the lower interest rates that we now enjoy. The sum of £2·5 billion went to tax cuts. So £2·5 billion out of £10·5 billion was devoted to that purpose.
      I welcome my right hon. Friend's decision to devote what he has given to income tax cuts to cutting the basic rate. The argument about the basic rate and thresholds has now been resolved quite definitely. In the incentives argument, tax on the marginal pound is important. In the context of the poverty trap, the proposed changes in social security arrangements on which payments will be based after tax income obviously make the tax rate irrelevant.
      My right hon. Friend has made the right decision to cut the basic rate of tax. Perhaps the only argument against it is that raising the threshold will benefit the lower paid more. That is undoubtedly true. The difference is fairly marginal. The best way in which to benefit and help the lower paid is to reduce the employee's national insurance contribution to a lower level. That can be done inexpensively and targeted at a particular group. I am sorry that my right hon. Friend considered that he was not able to do that. I hope that if he continues the policy of cutting the basic rate of tax he will raise the threshold on the employee's national insurance contributions to help the low paid.
      One of the canards that has to be nailed finally is that lower tax rates lead to lower tax revenue. They do not. The

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      argument about higher rates of tax and what happens to the higher paid is definitely answered by what happened to the yield from higher rate tax. Over the past eight years, it has risen by 40 per cent. in real terms. That was during a period when tax rates have been cut. That seems to bear out what we have been arguing all along: that up to a point —obviously, only up to a point — cuts in tax rates increase yield. In the case of higher rate tax, over the period when the top rate has been cut from 83 per cent. to 60 per cent., the yield rose 40 per cent. in real terms. In cash terms, it has risen from £800 million to £2·2 billion. Adjusted for inflation, that is 40 per cent. That seems to be a fairly definitive exposition of the argument that lowering rates will increase yield.
      It is interesting also to note that those who pay high rates of tax are contributing not only more in real terms but a higher percentage of income tax yield than they were eight years ago. In fact, the percentage has gone up from 4·3 per cent. to 5·7 per cent. as the yield from higher rate tax. The share of income tax paid by the top 5 and 10 per cent. of income tax payers has also risen. Cutting tax rates benefits not only the rich; it benefits everybody by generating more tax revenue.
      The other point about higher rate tax that must be noted is that not many people pay the higher rate. They do not have a great deal of income in excess of that rate. There are about 190,000 higher rate taxpayers. In answer to a parliamentary question, the Treasury said that the total income in excess of £30,000 a year for those people is £3·5 billion. In order to raise the £3·5 billion that the Opposition are talking about raising from the higher paid they will have to take every pound in excess of £30,000 a year. Opposition Members nod their heads. It is a fact. It is the answer to a parliamentary question. If they want to raise £3·5 billion, they will have to tax at 100 per cent. every pound of earnings in excess of £30,000 a year. I suggest that that is a policy of pure envy. It contains no economic sense and makes no sense in terms of tax yields.
      Mr. Raynsford: The hon. Gentleman has made the same mistake that I criticised earlier when other Conservative Members spoke. He is confusing the total yield from taxation with income tax alone. Our recovery of £3·5 billion will not come solely from income tax. Like his colleagues, the hon. Gentleman has clearly failed to grasp that point.
      7 pm
      Mr. Maples: From the speeches made by Opposition Members, I understood that they intended to recoup—as they put it—the £3·5 billion that has been given away in tax cuts to the rich. Tax cuts in favour of the rich—as opposed to cuts for everyone—can only be argued in the context of income tax. My point is that there is very little income in excess of £30,000 a year to be taxed.
      I also want to consider the argument that people are worse off and that taxation has risen. It is statistically true that tax as a percentage of GDP has risen. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor explained in his speech, that happened mainly in the first two years, from 1979 to 1981; but it has not happened since. Most citizens are more interested to know what has happened to their real disposable income—their take-home pay. In real terms, for someone on half average earnings, tax has risen from
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      £87 to £100; for someone on three quarters of average earnings, it has risen from £115 to £134; and for someone on average earnings, it has risen from £142 to £166. Those taxes more than cover the increase in VAT. The truth is that almost everybody—whether they are earning half, three quarters, average or twice average earnings—have a greater disposable income now than eight years ago by a considerable amount, and they know it.
      Mr. Austin Mitchell: Proportionately.
      Mr. Maples: No, in real terms. In real terms, the take-home pay of people on half, three quarters or average earnings has risen substantially. The hon. Member for Great Grimsby tables hundreds of parliamentary questions. He should read the answers to one or two other questions and he might find more information.
      Mr. Mitchell: I understand the answers, which is more than the hon. Gentleman does.
      Mr. Maples: If we consider the matter in percentage terms, the real disposable income for someone on average earnings has risen by 2·2 per cent. a year over the past eight years. That is the real test of what has been happening in the economy.
      I asked the hon. Member for Dagenham what the consequences of the previous Labour Government's tax rates would be if they were indexed to the present day. He declined to answer. I was not surprised, because the answer is rather unattractive. However, as he declined to answer, I thought that I would do the arithmetic. The answer to my question is the best guide to what a Labour Government would do with income tax. The Opposition declined to answer my question.
      Mr. Gould: What about VAT?
      Mr. Maples: The hon. Member for Dagenham may not have noticed, but an election is coming. Our tax policy is perfectly clear. However, the electorate are not at all clear about Labour party tax policies.
      Mr. Raynsford: Talk about VAT.
      Mr. Maples: I am talking about income tax. A reasonably good guide to the Labour party's tax policy might be its policy in 1978–79. If we index the tax bands and the married man's threshold—or the married man's allowance, as it was in 1978–79—that allowance would now be £3,245.
      Mr. Austin Mitchell: What about oil?
      Mr. Maples: The hon. Member for Great Grimsby should listen for a minute. He does an awful lot of talking. Under the present Government the married man's threshold is £3,795—an increase of £550. If we index the rate bands, the story is the same. I have calculated the income tax payable on various incomes under the Labour Government's tax rates in 1978–79 indexed to today and compared those to the present rates. Someone earning £5,000 is now paying £325 in income tax. He would have been paying £438 — £113 more — under the Labour Government's rates. Someone earning £7,500, who is paying £1,000, would have been—
      Mr. Raynsford: Tell us about VAT.
      Mr. Maples: I am talking about income tax. I wish that the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Raynsford) would listen for a moment.

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      Someone earning £7,500 a year, who is paying £1,000 in income tax, would have been paying £1,250 under Labour's rates. Someone earning £10,000 — which is about average male earnings—would be paying £2,075. He is now paying £1,675. That is a difference of £400 a year, and that is close to the figure that I suggested to the hon. Member for Dagenham in my intervention earlier.
      It is perfectly clear, from any way in which we consider the matter, that under a Labour Government everyone would pay more income tax. The best guide to that claim is to he found in the rates that applied when Labour was last in office. When we index those rates, we find that everyone would pay more tax.
      I am delighted to support the clause. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has made the right decision to cut the basic rate. When the Government are returned, I look forward to seeing the basic rate cut to 25 per cent.—and I hope in due course to see it cut even more. From the way in which Opposition Members have spoken and intend to vote, it is clear that the Labour, Liberal and Social Democrat parties are the parties of higher income tax. The Conservative party is the party of lower income tax. The interesting point is that the cut has been made at the same time as public expenditure has been increased. That may appear to be a paradox for Opposition Members, but it is the enviable consequence of a well managed economy.
      Mr. Tony Blair: This debate goes to the heart of the differences between the main parties. The Government want tax cuts, and the Opposition say that the money available should be spent on a range of targeted public expenditure measures which we claim will improve public services and reduce unemployment.
      Before dealing with that point I want to correct an assertion by the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) about value added tax. The Chancellor claimed that the Government's position on VAT, and especially on extending VAT to food and other materials, had not changed. I want to show why that claim cannot be sustained and that the Government's position has changed.
      Three years ago, when we were approaching the Euro elections, in June 1984, the Prime Minister gave a categorical assurance in the House that there would be no VAT on food. She made that assertion in terms that admitted of absolutely no qualification. She replied to a question from one of her hon. Friends and said that the Government had no intention of extending VAT to food. That statement was made without qualification or hedging words.
      Much has happened since then. Principally, moves are afoot in the EEC for what is called the harmonisation of internal tax rates. My hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham put the case for the Government's frontdoor imposition of VAT. I want to put the case for the Government's backdoor imposition of VAT through the EEC.
      After Lord Cockfield was appointed an article appeared in the Financial Times which stated unequivocally that it was Lord Cockfield's belief that VAT rates must be harmonised within the European Community. In that article, on 25 June 1986, the Financial Times correspondent stated that the issue that was
      "probably closest to Lord Cockfield's heart"
      was
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      "The need for bringing indirect tax rates broadly into line."
      The appointment of Lord Cockfield was followed by a document issued by the European Commission. In unequivocal terms that document stated:
      "Food products, subject to zero-rate VAT in Ireland and the United Kingdom, present a particular problem which should be tackled."
      That statement appeared in the document entitled, "Towards a Europe without Frontiers: The approximation of European tax systems", which was issued in May 1986.
      That was followed by a letter from Lord Cock field to the President of the EEC in May 1986, which was published as part of a consultative document by the EEC. In that letter Lord Cockfield said that it was likely that the Council would resume the examination of proposals already before it on the harmonisation of excise duty structures. That was followed by another document from the EEC, published on 20 January 1987, which set out a rolling programme for tax harmonisation within the EEC, which included harmonisation of VAT. Studies are still continuing within the EEC on harmonisation.
      Our attention was caught by an article in the Daily Telegraph on 31 March 1987. The article did not appear in Labour Weekly, the Morning Star or the Daily Mirror. It appeared in the Daily Telegraph. The article was headlined:
      "VAT threat to child clothes food and fuel."
      In that article, the Daily Telegraph correspondent in Brussels stated:
      "Books, magazines, fuel, children's clothes and all food sold in Britain would become liable to VAT if proposals to be presented shortly by the Common Market Commission are approved by the 12 EEC governments."
      The Prime Minister followed that by a letter to Alf Lomas, a Member of the European Parliament, in which she said that the Government had not so far been convinced that the harmonisation proposal should proceed. Yesterday, when the Prime Minister was asked a question about VAT, she gave a very different answer from the one that she gave in June 1984. [Interuption.] This is relevant to the point that the Chancellor made. If the Chancellor is entitled to make points about VAT scares put about by Labour, we are entitled to answer those points.
      The Prime Minister did not say yesterday what she said in June 1984, that the Government have no intention of putting VAT on food. The right hon. Lady said:
      "There is no way in which a Government of any political colour can say that they will never increase either value added tax or income tax."—[Official Report, 28 April 1987; Vol. 115, c. 158.]
      That is a much more qualified statement than the statement made in June 1984. The dodging by the Prime Minister yesterday and the Chancellor today entitles us as a party to keep raising the issue of VAT until we get the firm assurance that the Government will exercise their veto on any VAT proposals that come from the EEC. Until we get that assurance, we will continue to press the Government on the VAT issue.
      The clause raises the issue of priorities. The Government have said that because of the priorities lacing the country they should, through income tax cuts, put £3 per week into the pocket of the person on average earnings. We say that that is the wrong priority. If that money is available to spend, why not spend it to provide better education, hospitals, transport and other services? The issue is not how much is being spent here and there;

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      it is how much should be spent to provide the types of services that people want. I have found, not just in my constituency, but in other constituencies, that people understand the language of priorities and that it is better for their long-term future to spend this money to build up and safeguard their long-term interests.
      We were told by the alliance Member, in an interesting series of interventions, that they could not be sure exactly what their policy on tax cuts would be. It is time that we got some straight answers to the questions that we have been putting to the alliance about its income tax policy. The Government have made their position clear and the official Opposition have made their position clear. The hon. Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Wrigglesworth) said that the alliance would make clear before the general election campaign exactly where they stand on reversing, or not reversing, tax cuts. The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Taylor) adopted a different position and said that the alliance would look at the position when it got into power. That is the hedging and dodging that we have come to know from the alliance.
      We know that the position in the four or five weeks run up to the general election will not be materially different from what it is now, so we are entitled to have the campaign issues put fairly and squarely before the British people. We are entitled to know where the alliance stands. Until it makes it clear where it stands, it does not deserve to be treated with credibility.
      We had the usual eulogy for the economy from the Chancellor. He took a side swipe — I thought rather unfairly—at the excellent Treasury study on the effect of taxation incentives on employment.
      Mr. Lawson: Has the hon. Gentleman read it?
      Mr. Blair: I have read it. It is wrong of the right hon. Gentleman to commission a report and then dismiss it simply because he does not like the findings. Perhaps the professor who wrote the report has been consigned to the same status as the bishops in Conservative propaganda, but I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would treat him with a little more circumspection.
      The Chancellor, in his analysis of the economy, refused to deal with the point that he once raised in a speech about the City, that is, the short term-ism of Government economic policy. The Government's Red Book, which was published at the same time as the Budget, shows the underlying danger to the economy from the consumer boom getting out of control and causing high interest rates, which are still high even after the cuts yesterday. The Chancellor felt that he had to cut borrowing to deal with the consumer boom, because at the same time he cut taxes. The worst thing that we can do, when we have a consumer boom and high interest rates, is to cut taxes and fuel the consumer boom to a greater extent.
      7.15 pm
      The Chancellor talked about the real economy and output. I asked the House of Commons Library to give me the output figures for all EEC countries over the seven years of the Government's term of office. I assume that we are entitled to talk about the Goverment as if they were in power from 1979 to 1981. The table, which compares Britain's record with the records of other EEC countries from 1979 to 1986, shows a staggering picture of our
      364
      relative failure. All the other EEC countries, except France, which shows a 1 per cent. fall in output over the seven years, show an increase in manufacturing output. Britain is at the bottom of the table by miles, with a fall of almost 7 per cent. in that period. The countries that have overtaken us are not just Germany or Italy. The Netherlands increased its manufacturing output by 12 per cent.; Luxembourg increased its output by 22 per cent.; Portugal increased its output by almost 37 per cent.; and Ireland increased its output by almost 33 per cent. That shows how far we have been relegated down the manufacturing output table.
      The Chancellor talked about how well the Government are doing with new industries. We should look at the figures on the new technology industries, not on the traditional industries, to see how well we are doing there. Almost all those new industries are in deficit. The Government have failed, not just to save traditional industries, but to create new industries.
      The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Sir R. Gower) referred to the textile industry. The textile industry shows a deficit of almost £3 billion. That is the last available figure, so the notion that the Government are a Government of progress and innovation in the economy does not stand up to a moment's analysis.
      Government Members have several times muttered comments from a sedentary position about the CBI trend survey, published today. I have not had the opportunity of studying it in as much detail as I should want. I am sure that it has nothing to do with the impending general election, but a similar survey was published in 1983. If one looks at the detail of that CBI trend survey, some interesting things emerge in the difficulties that the country faces. It is true that the overall picture is more optimistic, but it is interesting that optimism is most prominent in the areas of the economy in which there is a degree of depression.
      The fastest-growing area of manufacturing is the chemicals and intermediate goods sector. The second is the consumer goods sector. The lowest—lowest by a long way—is the capital goods sector—electrical, mechanical, machine goods, and so on. In other words, where there is high value added to British goods, British industry is not doing as well as it should be. Where it is doing well is in the low value added sectors, which, to a large extent, is the result of the exchange rate fall last year, because it is those sectors that are most sensitive to the exchange rate.
      The CBI trend survey says about capital goods that order books are shortening, that fewer than 20 per cent. are investing to increase capacity rather than simply investing to increase efficiency, and the majority, 86 per cent., say that the major constraint on expansion is shortage of sales, orders and demand. When we are looking at the real economy, we should take some of those matters into account.
      The truth about the Government, which has been shown time and again throughout this and other debates on the economy, is that when it comes to choosing the high unemployment option, they are prepared to do so. That is the central difference between the two sides of the Committee. We live now in a kingdom divided along every conceivable type of line—between the poor and the rich, the north and the south, those with private health insurance and those with public health insurance, those who have shares and those who do not have shares. This is a Government who live and thrive on social division. It

      365
      is that social division that lies at the heart of the clause, and it is because we believe in healing the social divisions in Britain that we shall vote against it tonight.
      Mr. MacGregor: The hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) was struggling today as much as his party is struggling in the country. I recognise that many of his energies are being directed elsewhere, but his material was remarkably thin.
      "Remarkably thin" is also an apt description of the attendance on the Opposition Benches today. There were only three on the Opposition Front Bench and one on the Back Benches until the last few minutes—indeed the last few seconds.
      Mr. Gould: The Chief Secretary must not be allowed to get away with that. There were long periods during the debate—I do not know whether he was present—when the Conservative Benches were no more heavily populated than the Opposition Benches.
      Mr. MacGregor: I have been present throughout the debate, and there were a lot more Members on the Conservative Benches.
      We are told, as the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) has just said, that the clause is at the heart of the matter for the Opposition. We have made it clear throughout that clause 20 and what it does to income tax is extremely important for our economic policies, and is perhaps the most important part of the Budget. But it was the Opposition who wanted the debate today in order to highlight that the clause was, in their terms, at the heart of the matter. Therefore, it is extraordinary that, throughout, practically nobody has been here.
      Indeed, the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) had once again to pop from the Front Bench to the Back Benches to make his speech. I always find his speeches entertaining, and I always enjoy it when he does so. He is good at creating phrases, but the economic analyses and policies behind them are woefully thin. He has recently been popping from the Front Bench to the Back Benches in another sense—or perhaps not—in an alternative manifesto which we have recently had in the minority report of the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee.
      The hon. Gentleman is playing a key part in the Labour party's economic policies, and he has strongly put forward his arguments today from the Back Benches, although he is now again on the Front Bench. It is interesting to look at some of the ingredients of that alternative manifesto—a return to the policies pursued by the last Labour Government between 1974 and 1976, before they had to be bailed out by the IMF; massive and inflationary expansion of the money supply; mainstream corporation tax and advance corporation tax to be raised to 52 per cent.
      Those policies are the last thing that industry and commerce in general want. They are the last thing that would keep our economy competitive and bring down unemployment. We would not have had the optimistic CBI survey this week if those policies had been followed during the past few years.
      Let me return to the thin attendance. All the Opposition Members who are now on the Back Benches will not have heard the Chancellor commenting on a letter that he recently received from the Leader of the
      366
      Opposition. Since this was supposed to be such a keynote debate, the poor attendance is an interesting reflection. The Leader of the Opposition says to the Chancellor:
      "Our campaign will be stunning."
      If it is to be as stunning as the Opposition attack today, it is no wonder that Opposition Members were not here. They were clearly so stunned that they were flat on their backs elsewhere.
      There is one other phrase that I want to pick out from the letter. Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition gave the game away rather more than he realised when, in his letter to the Chancellor, he said:
      "I need even more help from you."
      I notice how the hon. Member for Dagenham kept off Labour policies today and concentrated on whether we had or had not cut taxes enough. No wonder. The Labour party's campaign might he rather more stunning if he were prepared to accept that it is our policies that are economically successful. That may well explain why he kept right off the stunning policies that we expected to hear from the Opposition today.
      I was puzzled at the line that the hon. Gentleman pursued today. He was clutching at straws when he tried to make the main thrust of his attack our record on taxes and then spent much of his speech, which was well below his usual standard, on a tiny piece of academic research concerned with technical and forecasting matters. I came to the conclusion that the hon. Gentleman composed his speech today either because he is so sensitive to the fact that bringing taxes down receives a popular and economically positive response or because he is so keen to divert attention from the Labour party's tax policies.
      Mr. Gould: To which piece of academic research is the right hon. Gentleman referring? Is he referring to the Brown report on incentives or the mysterious study on the extension of VAT? If it was the latter, can he tell us a little more about it? Can he tell us what the Chancellor would not tell us? What were the terms of reference of that study, what conclusions did it reach, when were those conclusions produced and what action do the Government propose to take on them?
      Mr. MacGregor: The terms of reference are known. They are to examine the detailed relationships between VAT yield and consumer expenditure. The purpose is to try to improve the understanding of the relationships between expenditure and VAT and to improve forecasting. It has nothing whatever to do with the details of any policy on VAT. The results have not yet been reached and no action will follow from them.
      Mr. Gould: The Chief Secretary poses us a puzzle. If the results have not yet been reached, how can he know that no action will be taken?
      Mr. MacGregor: I have explained that this is a small piece of technical economic research, of a kind that is frequently undertaken. That the hon. Gentleman should believe that it has any significance shows how thin is the Opposition's attack. It is extraordinary. The hon. Gentleman asked me for the answers and he has got them. He now knows how little there is in the point that lie is making—nothing.
      The hon. Gentleman also gave the game away when he kept describing our fiscal policies as tax cuts. That shows that he accepts that for some years now we have been doing just that. If the best that he can do is say that we

      367
      have not done enough yet in reducing the burden of tax, I can tell him that we will, and we know that he will not. Not only will the Labour party not, but it is clear from today's debate, as from so much else that has been said, that it will put up taxes much higher than they were under the last Labour Government.
      That is why I find the hon. Gentleman's attack today so extraordinary. He has tried to demonstrate that we have not yet succeeded sufficiently in bringing taxes down. That is a recognition of the policies that we are pursuing. It seemed almost by implication to suggest that we were right to say that we know perfectly well that the policies of the Labour party would substantially raise taxes. That makes the charge of the hon. Member for Dagenham extraordinary.
      I shall deal with some of the hon. Gentleman's points on the tax record and make the record on income tax clear. Everyone will pay less income tax in this fiscal year than under the income tax regime of the Labour Government when they left office — the 1978–79 regime — if it had been indexed in the proper way. A married man on average earnings would pay £10·50 a week more in income tax under an indexed 1978–79 regime. Moreover, the proportion of income tax and national insurance contributions is lower for everyone compared with the indexed regime of 1978–79.
      Mr. Raynsford: What about VAT?
      7.30 pm
      Mr. MacGregor: It is no good the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Raynsford) making that ludicrous point. It is our objective to continue to get income tax down and the burden of taxes down. We know that a Labour Government would substantially raise the burden of taxation for everyone. His is a totally bogus point.
      Mr. Raynsford: Perhaps the Chief Secretary will answer the specific point that I made—that a household in low-paid employment paying tax and national insurance and receiving rent and rate rebates would have lost 62p in the pound in 1979 for every pound earned. Under this Government, even after the 27p tax rate has been put into effect, the household now loses 82p in the pound and next year will lose 87p.
      Mr. MacGregor: That is a good deal better than the 100 per cent. marginal tax rates that there previously were in many areas. That is a consequence of targeting benefits on the poorest. Reversing this income tax cut would make the situation worse.
      The more important point is to ask what the hon. Member for Dagenham would do. He would greatly increase the burden of taxation compared with what it is now, on everyone. That is what makes such a nonsense of the position that the Labour party has been taking today.
      Mr. Gould rose—
      Mr. MacGregor: I shall complete this point. Referring back to the indexed 1978–79 regime, a married man without children on half average earnings—about £113 a week — will pay 9·72 per cent. of his earnings in income tax in 1987–88, compared with 12·9 per cent. if the regime that we inherited had simply been indexed.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Maples) was right — what matters to individuals and
      368
      their families is real take-home pay. For those on average earnings, real take-home pay will be over 21 per cent. higher in real terms in 1987–88 than in 1978–79. The real take-home pay of married men without children on average earnings fell under the last Labour Government.
      The hon. Member for Fulham mentioned nurses. He heard my right hon. Friend the Chancellor say that nurses' real take-home pay had gone up 42 per cent. under the Government. Real take-home pay has been transformed compared with the performance of the Labour Government. The hon. Member for Dagenham talked about mismanagement of the economy. What better comparative example of mismanagement under the former Labour Government and successful management under this Government is there than that?
      Mr. Gould rose—
      Mr. MacGregor: I cannot give way.
      I want to respond briefly to the point on regressive taxation. It is interesting that the top 5 per cent. of taxpayers—which is what I imagine the Opposition had in mind when they made this change—now pay some 28 per cent. of the total income tax yield, compared with 24 per cent. in 1978–79. That underlines my hon. Friend's argument that reductions in tax encourage greater effort and often improve yield.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir B. Rhys Williams) said that we must look at international tax rates when we are considering the rates of tax on the higher paid. He urged the Government to do more than we have, because in this Finance Bill we have consciously directed our tax proposals at those on average earnings and all those for whom the basic rate is the marginal rate. I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that when we first took office it was right to get rid of the absurdly high levels of direct taxation that the higher paid faced under the last Government.
      It is a ludicrous charge for the Opposition to make that we have not succeeded enough in our tax objectives when we are committed to a basic rate of 25p and they are committed to further massive increases. However, those are only their intermediate proposals. As the hon. Member for Dagenham knows, I have itemised the recent spending pledges that Labour Front Bench spokesmen and their party conferences have made. There have been no denials on any of them; I have the list here and I have itemised pledges with the date and the person who made them. Those spending pledges would lead to a massive increase in taxation.
      I want to ask the hon. Member for Dagenham a question. We have been concentrating on the basic rate of income tax. As he will know, what goes with that are the reduction in the small business corporation rate of tax, which has now come down by 15p in the pound, and the reduced rates of tax on unincorporated businesses and the self-employed by another 2p. Is he saying that he would increase the rates of taxation on those businesses by another 2p if he ever had the opportunity to introduce a Finance Bill?
      Mr. Gould: We have always made it perfectly clear that the £2·5 billion which has been given away in the Budget would be recouped, not necessarily in exactly the same form, and that that money would be spent on investment rather than consumption.
      Mr. MacGregor: That clearly means that the rate of tax for the unincorporated and self-employed would increase, and I am sure that the country will be interested to know that.
      The hon. Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Wrigglesworth) said that, in a few weeks, he would tell us what the cost of the alliance programme was to be and what it would do about income tax. I do not know when the election will be, but I thought that my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, South (Mr. Yeo) made a very fair point when he said that the leader of the SDP had firmly predicted that the election would be on 7 May. If that were the case, presumably the hon. Member for Stockton, South has already costed his proposals and decided what he will do about the rate of income tax. If not, it is clearly a case of cobbling up a policy at the last second, which does not seem to be untypical of his party.
      I am told that, at a recent farming conference, the SDP spokesman was challenged as to what the alliance would do on the rating of agricultural land, and when it was pointed out by the chairman that the two parties in the alliance were saying different things, the spokesman said that that was the value of having two policies at one and the same time. He said, "We can choose which one we want at the time." That is typical of the hon. Member for Stockton, South and all that he has said today.
      I have been through the lengthy document, "The Time Has Conic". There is not a specific pledge in it, but there is a vague pledge of doing something nice and worthwhile for any group to which the hon. Gentleman wants to appeal. That is typical of his party and typical of what it will do in a moment. It will vote against clause 20 and at some time it will make up its mind as to what it will do. At least on this point the Labour party is much more honest and straightforward. It has said what it will do, but once again the hon. Member for Stockton, South and the alliance want to have it all ways.
      Many interesting points were made by my hon. Friends to which I will not reply because the Committee wants to come to a conclusion on clause 20.
      In his opening remarks, and again in his last intervention to me, the hon. Member for Dagenham got to the heart of the matter—to use the phrase used by the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair)—when he talked about my right hon. Friend the Chancellor "giving away" money in tax cuts. He used that phrase twice and in doing so gave away the Labour mentality. We believe that the tax cuts are giving back to the British people money that they have earned.
      I am grateful for the support of my hon. Friends in this debate, not only because they have so effectively exposed the smears of the Labour party about our record, but because they have underlined the benefit of, and reason for, our tax policy, so well epitomised in this clause. That is why I urge the Committee to support it.
      Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 257, Noes 156.

      Division No. 149]

      [7.40 pm

      AYES

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H.

      Alexander, Richard

      Atkins, Robert (South Ribble)

      Alison, Rt Hon Michael

      Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)

      Amess, David

      Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

      Ancram, Michael

      Baldry, Tony

      Ashby, David

      Banks, Robert (Harrogate)

      Aspinwall, Jack

      Batiste, Spencer

      370

      Bellingham, Henry

      Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N)

      Bendall, Vivian

      Grist, Ian

      Bevan, David Gilroy

      Ground, Patrick

      Biggs-Davison, Sir John

      Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)

      Blackburn, John

      Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

      Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

      Hampson, Dr Keith

      Body, Sir Richard

      Hanley, Jeremy

      Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

      Hannam, John

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Harris, David

      Bottomley, Peter

      Harvey, Robert

      Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n)

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

      Hawkins, C. (High Peak)

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes

      Hawksley, Warren

      Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

      Hayes, J.

      Brandon-Bravo, Martin

      Hayward, Robert

      Bright, Graham

      Heathcoat-Amory, David

      Brinton, Tim

      Heddle, John

      Brittan, Rt Hon Leon

      Henderson, Barry

      Brooke, Hon Peter

      Hickmet, Richard

      Browne, John

      Hind, Kenneth

      Bruinvels, Peter

      Hirst, Michael

      Buck, Sir Antony

      Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

      Budgen, Nick

      Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling)

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Howard, Michael

      Burt, Alistair

      Howarth, Alan (Stratf''d-on-A)

      Butcher, John

      Howarth, Gerald (Cannock)

      Butler, Rt Hon Sir Adam

      Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N)

      Butterfill, John

      Hubbard-Miles, Peter

      Carlisle, John (Luton N)

      Hunt, David (Wirral W)

      Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

      Irving, Charles

      Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S)

      Jackson, Robert

      Carttiss, Michael

      Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

      Cash, William

      Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

      Channon, Rt Hon Paul

      Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

      Chapman, Sydney

      Jones, Robert (Herts W)

      Chope, Christopher

      Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

      Churchill, W. S.

      Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

      Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n)

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

      King, Roger (B'ham N'field)

      Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

      King, Rt Hon Tom

      Clegg, Sir Walter

      Knight, Greg (Derby N)

      Cockeram, Eric

      Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

      Coombs, Simon

      Knowles, Michael

      Cope, John

      Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

      Cormack, Patrick

      Lang, Ian

      Couchman, James

      Latham, Michael

      Critchley, Julian

      Lawler, Geoffrey

      Currie, Mrs Edwina

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Dickens, Geoffrey

      Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

      Dicks, Terry

      Lee, John (Pendle)

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

      Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

      Dover, Den

      Lester, Jim

      Durant, Tony

      Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd)

      Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)

      Lightbown, David

      Evennett, David

      Lilley, Peter

      Fallon, Michael

      Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant)

      Farr, Sir John

      Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

      Favell, Anthony

      Lord, Michael

      Fenner, Dame Peggy

      Lyell, Nicholas

      Fletcher, Sir Alexander

      McCrindle, Robert

      Forman, Nigel

      McCurley, Mrs Anna

      Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Forth, Eric

      MacGregor, Rt Hon John

      Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

      MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire)

      Franks, Cecil

      MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute)

      Fraser, Peter (Angus East)

      Maclean, David John

      Freeman, Roger

      McLoughlin, Patrick

      Fry, Peter

      McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)

      Gale, Roger

      Madel David

      Galley, Roy

      Major, John

      Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde)

      Malins, Humfrey

      Garel-Jones, Tristan

      Malone, Gerald

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Maples, John

      Goodhart, Sir Philip

      Marlow, Antony

      Gorst, John

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Gow, Ian

      Mather, Sir Carol

      Gower, Sir Raymond

      Maude, Hon Francis

      Greenway, Harry

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Gregory, Conal

      May hew, Sir Patrick

      Griffiths, Sir Eldon

      Merchant, Piers

      371

      Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon)

      Skeet, Sir Trevor

      Mitchell, David (Hants NW)

      Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

      Moate, Roger

      Speller, Tony

      Monro, Sir Hector

      Spicer, Jim (Dorset W)

      Montgomery, Sir Fergus

      Squire, Robin

      Moore, Rt Hon John

      Steen, Anthony

      Morris, M. (N'hampton S)

      Stern, Michael

      Moynihan, Hon C.

      Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)

      Mudd, David

      Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

      Nelson, Anthony

      Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)

      Newton, Tony

      Stewart, Ian (Hertf'dshire N)

      Nicholls, Patrick

      Stradling Thomas, Sir John

      Norris, Steven

      Sumberg, David

      Onslow, Cranley

      Taylor, John (Solihull)

      Osborn, Sir John

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.

      Ottaway, Richard

      Thornton, Malcolm

      Page, Sir John (Harrow W)

      Thurnham, Peter

      Page, Richard (Herts SW)

      Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

      Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abgdn)

      Tracey, Richard

      Pattie, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      van Straubenzee, Sir W.

      Pawsey, James

      Vaughan, Sir Gerard

      Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian

      Waddington, Rt Hon David

      Pollock, Alexander

      Wakeham, Rt Hon John

      Porter, Barry

      Waldegrave, Hon William

      Portillo, Michael

      Walden, George

      Powell, William (Corby)

      Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)

      Powley, John

      Waller, Gary

      Price, Sir David

      Walters, Dennis

      Proctor, K. Harvey

      Wardle, C. (Bexhill)

      Raffan, Keith

      Watson, John

      Rhodes James, Robert

      Watts, John

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Wells, Sir John (Maidstone)

      Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

      Winterton, Mrs Ann

      Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)

      Wolfson, Mark

      Robinson, Mark (N'port W)

      Wood, Timothy

      Roe, Mrs Marion

      Yeo, Tim

      Rost, Peter

      Young, Sir George (Acton)

      Ryder, Richard

      Younger, Rt Hon George

      Sackville, Hon Thomas

      Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

      Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd and Mr. Michael Neubert.

      Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

      Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Clelland, David Gordon

      Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

      Clwyd, Mrs Ann

      Alton, David

      Cohen, Harry

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Conlan, Bernard

      Ashdown, Paddy

      Cook, Frank (Stockton North)

      Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

      Corbett, Robin

      Ashton, Joe

      Corbyn, Jeremy

      Atkinson, N. (Tottenham)

      Craigen, J. M.

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Cunliffe, Lawrence

      Barnes, Mrs Rosemary

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)

      Barron, Kevin

      Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l)

      Beckett, Mrs Margaret

      Deakins, Eric

      Bell, Stuart

      Dewar, Donald

      Benn, Rt Hon Tony

      Dixon, Donald

      Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)

      Dormand, Jack

      Bermingham, Gerald

      Douglas, Dick

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Dubs, Alfred

      Blair, Anthony

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

      Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E)

      Eadie, Alex

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Eastham, Ken

      Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E)

      Faulds, Andrew

      Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

      Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

      Bruce, Malcolm

      Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)

      Caborn, Richard

      Flannery, Martin

      Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Campbell, Ian

      Foster, Derek

      Campbell-Savours, Dale

      Foulkes, George

      Canavan, Dennis

      Fraser, J. (Norwood)

      Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y)

      Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Garrett, W. E.

      Cartwright, John

      George, Bruce

      Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

      Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

      Clay, Robert

      Godman, Dr Norman

      372

      Golding, Mrs Llin

      Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

      Gould, Bryan

      Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

      Hamilton, James (M'well N)

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Hamilton, W. W. (Fife Central)

      Nellist, David

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

      Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

      O'Brien, William

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      O'Neill, Martin

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Park, George

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Patchett, Terry

      Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

      Pendry, Tom

      Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall)

      Pike, Peter

      Home Robertson, John

      Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

      Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

      Prescott, John

      Howells, Geraint

      Radice, Giles

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

      Randall, Stuart

      Hughes, Roy (Newport East)

      Raynsford, Nick

      Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)

      Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S)

      Janner, Hon Greville

      Richardson, Ms Jo

      John, Brynmor

      Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

      Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

      Robertson, George

      Kirkwood, Archy

      Rooker, J. W.

      Lambie, David

      Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)

      Lamond, James

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Leighton, Ronald

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Sheerman, Barry

      Lewis, Terence (Worsley)

      Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE)

      Litherland, Robert

      Skinner, Dennis

      Livsey, Richard

      Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury)

      Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

      Snape, Peter

      Lofthouse, Geoffrey

      Steel, Rt Hon David

      Loyden, Edward

      Straw, Jack

      McDonald, Dr Oonagh

      Taylor, Matthew

      McKay, Allen (Penistone)

      Thorne, Stan (Preston)

      MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

      Tinn, James

      Maclennan, Robert

      Warden, Gareth (Gower)

      McTaggart, Robert

      Weetch, Ken

      Madden, Max

      Welsh, Michael

      Marshall, David (Shettleston)

      White, James

      Martin, Michael

      Williams, Rt Hon A.

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Wilson, Gordon

      Maynard, Miss Joan

      Winnick, David

      Meacher, Michael

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Meadowcroft, Michael

      Michie, William

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Mikardo, Ian

      Mr. Frank Haynes and Mr. John McWilliam.

      Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Clause 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 23

      DEDUCTION RATE FOR SUB-CONTRACTORS IN CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY
      Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
      Mr. MacGregor: This clause deals with the deduction rate for sub-contractors, and it follows on from the debate that we have just had.
      There is no automatic connection between the deduction rate and the basic rate of tax, but the two have moved in step for the past five changes of rate and there are good reasons for that. I am sure that this change will be welcomed as it follows from clause 20 and the decision that the Committee has just taken to reduce the basic rate of tax to 27p.
      Mr. Blair: The Chief Secretary has correctly said that the proposed change in clause 23 simply follows the normal diminution in the rate of income tax. Therefore, as it follows as a matter of course, we take no stand upon it.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Clause 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 21

      CHARGE OF CORPORATION TAX FOR FINANCIAL YEAR 1987
      Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
      The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Norman Lamont): This clause sets the rate of corporation tax at 35 per cent. for the 1987 financial year.
      Companies have told us that advance notice of the main rate of corporation tax helps with their forward planning. Hon. Members will be aware that before 1984 it was normal to set the corporation tax rate in arrears. However, the Finance Act 1984 set the corporation tax rates for the following three financial years and we intend as far as possible to maintain the practice of setting corporation tax rates in advance. Accordingly, this clause fixes the rate of corporation tax for the financial year to 31 March 1988 at the unchanged level of 35 per cent. At 35 per cent. the rate of corporation tax is, at present, the lowest of any major industrialised country, although the United States is shortly to emulate us with a rate of 34 per cent.
      The reforms introduced in 1984 are now firmly in place, and the benefits are beginning to be felt, although it will be a few more years before they fully work through. However we can already see improvements in terms of increased dynamism, profitability and the quality of business investment decisions in Britain. That is part of a continuing success story. For example, the average rate of return earned by all industrial and commercial companies has continued to grow, and in 1985, the last year for which we have figures, it was 11.9 per cent., the highest rate since 1964.
      Company profits are also up. The gross trading profits of non-North sea industrial and commercial companies have risen from £30 billion in 1984 to £45 billion in 1986. Not surprisingly, there has also been an increase in corporation tax receipts, from £10.7 billion in 1985–86 to a forecast yield of £15 billion for 1987–88. This rise in corporation tax receipts is largely the result of those higher profits. As I have said, the 1984 corporation tax reforms have stimulated business and no doubt led to higher profits. I do not pretend that paying tax helps businesses, but the corporation tax reforms show that improvements to the tax system can benefit businesses without causing a loss of revenue.
      This is not a short-term boom that will suddenly collapse. Reference has already been made to one of the most optimistic CBI surveys for many years. That survey, which covered very nearly 1,500 companies, responsible for almost half the United Kingdom's manufactured exports and more than half of manufacturing employment, reported further increases in optimism about the business situation rising to levels experienced only once before in the last decade. United Kingdom manufacturing firms are now winning orders at the fastest rate for many years, with exports at record levels and forecast to rise even further. Manufacturing output, already growing rapidly, is expected to grow faster still.
      All this underpins and emphasises that our corporation tax reforms, which were much criticised, have been compatible with healthy industrial development. Certainly the growth in corporation tax receipts reflects the strength of commerce. The clause merely repeats that the present
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      rate of corporation tax at 35 per cent. should be the same for the next financial year. I do not suppose that there will be much dispute about that tonight.
      The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Nicholas Winterton): Is it the Minister's wish that we should take clause 22 with clause 21?
      Mr. Lamont: As we have started on this debate, perhaps we could take the two clauses separately if that is convenient.
      8 pm
      Mr. Gould: We take no particular point against clause 21 and we do not propose to divide on it. As the Minister said, it gives us an opportunity to assess three years' experience of the changes which were introduced in corporation tax in 1984. If I recall correctly, the changes were designed to discourage what the Chancellor described at the time as investment which could not be justified or artificial investment produced by a system of capital allowances which the Chancellor felt was distorting the pattern of investment.
      One assumes, as a corollary of that, that the changes were also designed to encourage the use of cheap labour as a substitute for investment. I assume that that was part of the Chancellor's interest in promoting what he described in a memorable phrase as a "low-tech, no-tech" economy. Incidentally, that attitude sat uneasily with his subsequent interest in the proposition that our economic ills were the consequence of high wage rates. That also had a brief run of popularity until a reasonable amount of academic research and commentary showed that the proposition could not be sustained.
      Mr. Tim Smith: Why does the hon. Gentleman refer disparagingly to cheap labour? Surely he recalls that the 100 per cent. investment allowance was the response of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), as Chancellor, to excessive rates of inflation. It was basically an inflationary allowance. When inflation came down, it made sense to bring the rates back to more sensible levels. When unemployment was high it did not make sense to have a system that encouraged investment in expensive labour.
      Mr. Gould: What the hon. Gentleman says is true of stock appreciation but not of capital allowances. I have used the phrase "cheap labour" because in any international assessment that is precisely what we have. Notwithstanding the Chancellor's contention that real wages were too high, he has now abandoned that, or, if he has not abandoned it, he is not saying much about it. Again, that may be one of the detectable changes in attitude and in Government policy which owe much to the apparent imminence of a general election.
      Sir Raymond Gower: Surely the chief complaint was not that wages were too high but that some wages were too high in relation to productivity. Has not that been altered by the vast improvement in productivity?
      Mr. Gould: I deliberately used the term "real wages". By definition that covers the hon. Gentleman's point. Since he mentioned productivity in his intervention, I must point out that the productivity improvements of which so much is made demonstrate no improvement in trend. The improvement over the period of this Government is no better than we achieved in the 1960s and 1970s. I shall say

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      a word in a moment about the figures that have been produced and why they are perhaps less reliable than is sometimes suggested.
      Let me return to the question of how effective the changes of 1984 have been in securing the objectives that the Chancellor enunciated. We were warned at the time by the Institute for Fiscal Studies that the effect of the changes would be to discourage investment. As I have said, at least in his own terms the Chancellor acknowledged that that was part of the intention of the changes. That objective has certainly been met. Investment in manufacturing rose briefly in the wake of the announcement of the changes, but that was a transitional response. It had a bunching effect to get investment in before capital allowances were phased out. Now that that has happened, manufacturing investment has fallen back to more than 20 per cent. below the level of 1979.
      As a consequence of that appalling investment policy for manufacturing industry, we are again as an economy disinvesting. From 1980 to 1985 there was net disinvestment of £5·52 billion compared with positive investment of about the same sum from 1975 to 1979. In other words, we are the first major country to bring in reverse development. That is the outcome of the Government's economic policies and the true measure of their much-touted economic boom.
      The Institute for Fiscal Studies also pointed out that the changes would be biased in favour of financial institutions, particularly banks, which had major investments in property and which, therefore, benefited from the cut in corporation tax but lost very little through the loss of capital allowances. The impact of the changes has been principally in respect of manufacturing industry. In that context it is also worth bearing in mind that whereas the Chancellor predicted, and indeed indicated that it was his intention, that the changes should be revenue neutral, that is not how they have turned out. I have full sympathy for the Chancellor. It must have been an extraordinarily difficult prediction to make. Nevertheless, that was his intention.
      It appears that the Chancellor missed his target. It again demonstrates how little the Chancellor knows about how the economy is performing and about how much revenue he is likely to receive from corporation tax. The reason that I make the point is that a forthcoming article in Fiscal Studies will point out that, accepting the increased profitability, the changes have produced a £1 billion increase in revenue over what would have been the revenue take if the changes had not been made, even in the same circumstances. In other words, far from being revenue neutral, the changes have produced an extra £1 billion of revenue over and above what has been produced by the buoyancy and profitability of the corporate sector. Therefore, we have yet another indication of why the Chancellor has been inundated with revenue that he had not expected even some months ago. Again, it demonstrates how little he knows about what is happening to the economy.
      The other objective of the changes, as the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Smith) suggested in his intervention, was to boost employment. Instead of using expensive investment, the objective was to use relatively inexpensive labour. If that had been achieved, one might have said that there was a certain rationale and something to be
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      supported in the changes. But, of course, the loss in manufacturing employment has continued unabated. There has been a 28 per cent. loss in manufacturing jobs since the Government took office.
      Turning to the productivity point made by the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Sir R. Gower), it is the continuing fall in manufacturing employment outstripping the fall in manufacturing output which has produced the misleading productivity figures of which the Government have made so much. If we were to be offered a bargain of further improvements in productivity of the type that the Government have produced, but at the price of falling manufacturing employment outstripping falling manufacturing output, I do not think that many of us would say that such productivity was worth having.
      Productivity is not so favourable if one considers it in terms of output per hour rather than output per worker. Rather than sack workers, many employers have kept them on but have asked them to work longer hours. Therefore, the productivity figure is more favourable in terms of output per worker but much less favourable on the more accurate basis of output per hour.
      In addition, there is the familiar argument that much of the productivity improvement has been brought about because the weaker performers have gone to the wall and have gone out of business. For all those reasons, I think that we are entitled to look askance at the claimed productivity miracle of the Government.
      The changes introduced in 1984 have predictably discouraged investment, which is parlously low. It means that we are disinvesting rather than investing substantially in new capacity, as all our rivals are doing. The change has not been revenue neutral, as the Chancellor intended. Certainly it has not encouraged employment in manufacturing industry. Therefore, the conclusion we reach is that the changes, while in a sense understandable by the Government's rationale at the time, have not been helpful to industry and, indeed, have been deleterious to it in many respects.
      We still need some means by which investment — particularly in manufacturing industry — can be picked up off the floor. If that does not happen, we know as a matter of certainty that we cannot go on competing in international markets against countries that are investing in their own industrial bases. If we do not invest, we are trying to compete with one hand, if not two hands, tied behind our back. So it becomes of crucial importance to our economic future to find a means of promoting the investment that we need. Clearly, the Government have no answers or ideas on that subject. The changes that they introduced in 1984 have done nothing to improve the position; they have worsened it as far as one can tell.
      We need a different approach, a different macro-economic climate and specific incentives to investment. None of those appear to be in the Government's mind. The Government are guilty of the very short-termism of which the Chancellor accused the City some months ago. If we are to get the investment that we so desperately need, the economy and the country will have to wait for a Labour Government to achieve it.
      Mr. Tim Smith: I do not know how the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) can say that the Government are guilty of short-termism when, in 1984, they reformed corporation tax and, for the first time, told companies what the regime would be for a three-year period ahead.

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      I recall the days when Chancellors of the Exchequer stood up and announced in the course of their Budget statements the rate of corporation tax for the year that had just concluded. That did not help companies that were trying to plan ahead.
      I welcome the clause because it states the rate of corporation tax for the coming year, which helps companies. Secondly, it is a low rate of corporation tax — 35 per cent. That will also help companies. I cannot remember the exact history of all this, but I recall that, in the early and middle 1970s, as inflation rose, there was a cash flow crisis in industry. The right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), then Chancellor of the Exchequer, introduced stock appreciation relief. I believe that 100 per cent. capital allowances were not only an incentive to industry to invest but were necessary so that industry had the cash to replace assets that could cost 100, 200, or 300 per cent. more than they had before because of inflation. The changes that were made in 1984 were a proper response to the fact that there was no longer rampant inflation in the economy. They were not so much designed to encourage employment in manufacturing industry as to ensure that the tax system was not so distorted that decisions about whether or not it would be commercially right to invest in new machinery or use new employees were dictated by tax considerations. So the tax regime for corporation tax and for capital allowances was basically neutral as between a decision to invest or use additional labour. At a time of low inflation and high unemployment, that was the right thing to do.
      Now, three years on from 1984, we find that the revenue from corporation tax has risen substantially. I believe that that is largely due to the increased profitability of British industry. The hon. Member for Dagenham tried to argue that the £1 billion figure that is to be published by the Institute for Fiscal Studies is due to the 1984 changes in the regime. However, that figure must he hypothetical, because people change their behaviour in response to tax changes. The figure can only be the institute's best estimate, and, even if it is correct, it shows that the hulk of the increase in revenue from corporation tax—corporation tax revenue was only £3 billion or £4 billion not long ago — has been due to the increased profitability of British industry.
      An interesting appendix to the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee's report on the Budget shows the difficulty of forecasting the yield from corporation tax. It is particularly difficult for the Revenue to forecast the yield of that tax. Another factor is that there were huge tax loss over-hangs in many industrial companies — they were making good profits but paying no corporation tax because of losses that were carried forward. Many of those have come to an end, which is another reason for the substantial increase in yield. For all those reasons, I welcome the clause.
      8.15 pm
      I want to refer briefly to the effect of the changes on the film industry, in which I have a constituency interest. Pinewood film studios in my constituency is a subsidiary of the Rank Organisation, which has recently had to make a large number of redundancies in response to changes in the market. My right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will be aware that the chief executive of the Rank Organisation wrote to him on 24 April about all this. I do not want to weary the Committee with all the figures,
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      but it is not enough to say that the business expansion scheme will be sufficient to help the film industry. The amounts of cash involved, the long lead times and the substantial amount of risk make it a special case.
      I ask my right hon. Friend to examine the letter from the Rank Organisation carefully; it sets out the arguments for some degree of special treatment for the film industry. The industry is a special case, although I know that it is not the only one. The points advanced by the chief executive, Mr. Gifford, are the substantial amount of funding required for film production and the long period between commencing production and incurring expenditure on a film and the date on which revenues start being received. There is also the fact that such revenues tend to be earned some time after initial cinema release. I hope that my right hon. Friend will give careful attention to those arguments.
      Mr. Wrigglesworth: I agree with the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Smith) about the level of profitability, which I believe is welcome in business at the present time. I also agree with him about the certainty for rates of corporation tax. That proposal was welcome and has certainly been helpful to businesses.
      I want to say a few words about the important subject raised by the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) —the impact that the changes have had on investment. That is of fundamental importance to us all. There is a continuing debate about the relationship between the manufacturing and services sectors of the economy, and about whether the one can replace the other or is more important than the other. Surely the services and manufacturing sectors are interdependent. Each rests upon the efforts of the other. In a trading nation such as ours, services inevitably depend more on manufacturing than the other way round Almost 100 per cent. of manufactured goods are tradeable, whereas only 20 to 25 per cent. of services arc tradeable.
      All the historical evidence is that those countries that have succeeded in exporting a large number of their products — the most recent example in the post-war years has been Japan—have built upon the back of their enormous manufacturing trade the service industries that go with it — banking. shipping, insurance and all the other things that we provide so well in the City of London. But one needs a strong manufacturing sector to have a healthy services sector. One of the reasons why we have such a successful services sector is that, historically, we have had a substantial amount of world trade in manufactured goods ever since the industrial revolution, Victorian times and the empire. That gave us an enormous advantage.
      It is vital that we examine the impact that the changes have made on investment. I draw the Minister's attention to the latest annual report of the Equipment Leasing Association. It commissioned a report at Bath university, and has commissioned a further report on the impact of the changes on industry and investment. Many of us thought that the changes in corporation tax would lead to a considerable reduction in the leasing industry's activities, because it seemed that the leasing business was built largely on the tax structure that used to exist. However, the leasing business has continued to thrive and, indeed, is expanding. Nevertheless, the study that the Equipment Leasing Association carried out demonstrates the decline

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      in investment which has taken place recently and which is forecast to take place in future as a result of these tax changes, and I find it disturbing.
      I am fairly pessimistic, but would like to think that the Government will consider whether we can use the tax system to encourage investment in some high-tech areas of the economy in a way which commands broad consensus in the House. Generally speaking, I am sceptical about tax expenditure. One does not like to distort the tax system by introducing tax allowances any more than necessary, but against that one must admit that tax breaks are a wonderful incentive to individuals and businesses. One need only look at mortgages and the insurance and pensions industry to see the impact which tax incentives can have.
      It is absolutely vital to reverse the recent awful trend in high technology. Many countries have beaten us solidly; our balance of payments for information technology equipment has been growing increasingly wide and adverse and we must do something about it. The Government should consider introducing tax incentives to encourage more investment in these vital areas in future, not only for those sectors of industry, but for the many other sectors that depend on them.
      Information technology is an obvious case in point. In one way or another, both the service industries and manufacturing industries will depend on it. Therefore, we must be at the forefront of that technology in terms of research and development and manufacturing. We must be able to beat the competition from Japan, America and Germany, because that is the only way we can succeed.
      We may be able to encourage companies through the tax system to invest more in research and development and in capital equipment and to use and develop high technology in a way which all hon. Members want to see, and I hope that Treasury Ministers will give that some consideration.
      Sir Raymond Gower: Like the hon. Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Wrigglesworth), I agree with what has been said about the advantages of having the corporation tax rate stated firmly and clearly in this clause of the Finance Bill, and with what has been said about the benefits of this low rate, which is extremely favourable in an international context.
      The hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) went a long way to disparage and discover the loopholes in British productivity. The fact is that our industries have been in decline for several decades and one must recognise that. Indeed, at one stage the decline seemed to be terminal. The decline of much of British industry dates back to the end of the last war and some of it dates back further, so this state has persisted for a long time. The difficulties of British industry were aggravated by the lateness of our entry into the Common Market which meant that we suffered many of the disadvantages, without gaining the advantages. Moreover, we faced enhanced competition from the new entrants into the industrial world—not merely Japan, but Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong and so on. All that aggravated the difficulties of British industry.
      It is only now that much of British industry has turned the corner and become more efficient than it was. The fact that our industry went through that difficult period has
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      made it more efficient, but that has brought other problems. By becoming more efficient, industry has shed some of its labour, which has exacerbated our unemployment problem.
      Mr. Gould: I am listening with great interest to the hon. Gentleman, and I would not intervene if it were not that he was making assertions which are widely made but not based in fact. He is saying that British industry has become more competitive as a consequence of changes in productivity and manning levels. I am sorry to tell him that that is not borne out by any index of competitiveness which the Government use—and they use about half a dozen. Each of those shows that competitiveness has declined since 1979, quite apart from the fact that output has fallen.
      Sir Raymond Gower: I have personal knowledge of certain companies and I have seen benefits accruing to them as they have recovered with difficulty from their position of eight or 10 years ago. It is only now that some of those companies are more efficient. One or two specialised industries, such as the textile industry, have made a great recovery, but the hon. Member for Stockton, South tended to belittle what has been a distinct recovery.
      For the reasons that have already been given from both sides of the House, we can all accept this clause, and I hope that we shall do so.
      Mr. Norman Lamont: Several speeches concentrated on the effects on investment of the changes made in 1984, but levels of investment have held up. We always accepted that reform might affect the investment profile, with some being brought forward to earlier years to qualify for the higher rate of capital allowances, but the DTI investment intentions survey suggests a rise of about 6 per cent. in industrial investment in 1987 and a similar increase in 1988.
      The hon. Member for Stockton, South (Mr. Wrigglesworth) referred to the Equipment Leasing Association. Only in March it announced that 1986 had been its second best year ever, contrary to the expectations that leasing would be hard hit by the 1984 reforms.
      Mr. Wrigglesworth: I said that the effect of the changes on leasing had not been adverse, as had been anticipated. That is different from saying that, because leasing has increased, the amount of capital investment in industry has increased. I hope that the Minister will study the report, because it points out that the level of industrial investment will decline in future and that action needs to be taken to stop that decline.
      Mr. Lamont: There are no grounds for saying that industrial investment or investment in the economy has declined. As we all know, investment in the economy is at record levels, but Opposition Members like to point out that manufacturing investment has been adversely affected.
      I mention these matters because in 1983, the year before the corportion tax reforms, manufacturing investment, including leasing, was £6·8 billion, whereas in 1986 it was £9·5 billion. Therefore, there is not much evidence that the reforms have had the dramatic adverse effects that hon. Members have described.
      That is the figure that we should look at, and that is the point that I would make in reply to the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) when he talked about net

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      disinvestment—a concept that is beloved of statisticians but one about which I remain extremely sceptical because of the difficulty of measuring it. What we can look at and what we do know about is gross investment, and the figures for gross investment are those that I have given the Committee. They hardly bear out the dire predictions by hon. Members of the Opposition.
      The hon. Member for Stockton, South said that he did not like tax breaks but thought that we ought perhaps to consider them in this particular instance. It is a very unfamiliar stance for him to say that, while he is against something, on the whole he might just favour it a little. It is a very attractive posture and we know why it was taken, but on this occasion the hon. Gentleman will be very pleased to know that not only have we listened to and considered what he says; we have already done what he advocates. There is already provision for short-life assets to be treated differently: expenditure on assets with a life of up to three years can be written off over the life of the asset instead of at the normal rate of 25 per cent.
      8.30 pm
      That was specifically introduced for the high technology sector, bearing in mind that in information technology and electronics some investment is written off at a truly astonishing rate these days. I merely draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to it to try to assure him that we had that particular problem somewhat in mind.
      We also heard from the hon. Member for Dagenham the view that the tax reforms had increased incentives to invest in services, particularly the financial services, although I think that it is an argument that applies to all services rather than just to financial ones. But, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Smith) said, the reforms are particularly designed to bring about a situation where investment is business-driven and not tax-driven. That is the whole point of it. If this means more investment in services, so be it. I agree with the hon. Member for Stockton, South that there is not a right level of investment, either in services or in manufacturing; the important thing is that for the country as a whole the investment should be of the highest quality.
      The hon. Member for Dagenham was sceptical about the revenue neutrality of the reforms. We will read with interest what the Institute of Fiscal Studies says on this. It does not automatically follow that, because the revenue is higher than predicted, it has failed to be revenue-neutral. There will have to be rather more to the argument than that, and I know that there will be. But we are not persuaded that there is yet evidence to show that it was not revenue-neutral.
      The main factor that has increased the revenue from corporation tax has been the dramatic recovery in the profitability of British companies. I have quoted the rates of return in British non-North sea companies up to the levels of the 1960s. The hon. Member for Dagenham says that the fact that we did not predict that accurately shows how out of touch the Chancellor is. What it really shows is that the economy did even better than the Chancellor said it would, even better than he had expected.
      The hon. Member for Dagenham kept talking about short-termism, saying that the Chancellor was running the economy in a short-term way. If ever I heard short-termism expressed, it was in the hon. Gentleman leaping to say that the changes in corporation tax were all wrong
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      and that we ought to look at them again, in the first year in which they have operated in their new form. If that is not short-termism, I do not know what is.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield raised the subject of the film industry. I was very glad that he raised it after the hon. Member for Dagenham had spoken and not before, because the hon. Member and I used to debate legislation relating to the film industry, and the changes in corporation tax were much debated — almost out of order—when we were discussing the Films Act 1985.
      I will certainly look at the letter to which my hon. Friend referred. He will know that we have taken the view, very much on the grounds that he himself was arguing, that investment should be business-driven and not tax-driven, and that we could not make exceptions for particlar sectors. He will know—I think he said—that the film industry is not the only one to argue that it should be regarded as a special case. We do not say that the answer to the problems of the film industry is the business expansion scheme, not for one minute; but I hope that the changes that we have made in the business expansion scheme will be positively looked at by the industry, because we deliberately made some changes which we hoped would overcome some of the problems perceived by the film industry in making full use of the scheme. Nevertheless, I will look at the point that my hon. Friend made, and at the letter.
      I am grateful also to my hon. Friend for picking up the hon. Member for Dagenham when he said that one of the purposes of the corporation tax changes had been to encourage the use of cheap labour. That was never the purpose, and I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman, who likes to represent our arguments fairly, was really parodying the argument. It was always that we ought to have neutrality in the tax system as between capital and labour — it has nothing to do with cheap labour—that companies ought to be given an incentive to employ people rather than substitute machinery for labour. That is the same philosophy as informed the changes that we made in regional development grants as well; we thought it a good thing to make them more job-related. I still think that those were good changes, and I agree with what my hon. Friend said.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Sir R. Gower) took up the hon. Member for Dagenham on what he had said about productivity and the fact that it was nothing remarkable. If I undestood him—he has certainly made this point on previous occasions — the hon. Member for Dagenham was arguing that there is somehow a difference between a negative increase in productivity — getting rid of people — and a positive increase, which is increasing output while keeping the same labour force. But I would put this to Opposition Members: if there is overmanning in industry, that position will be unsustainable. The level of overmanning that we inherited in 1979 in industries such as steel was untenable. It is a terrible thing that so many people should have had to be made redundant in the steel industry, but this has made the industry more competitive and it has made the jobs that remain in the industry much more secure. He says that there is no increase in competitiveness, but I think that he will find that view very much disputed by the steel industry itself.
      Mr. Gould: I am sure that the Financial Secretary understands the point. It is simply that the rates of

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      productivity are partly produced by a statistical effect, because weaker performers have dropped out of the picture. So the average of what remains appears to rise, although the actual productivity performance of each of those people need not have improved at all. That is what underlies a productivity performance which, despite the claims made for it, is no better than trend in any case.
      Mr. Lamont: Many people would dispute the hon. Member's view of that. I remember noticing in about 1980—I speak from memory—the astonishing fact, as I saw it, that the proportion of the labour force engaged in manufacturing was actually higher in this country than in Japan, even though the contribution of manufacturing to output was much higher in Japan. It just demonstrates how unsustainable was the level of manning that we inherited in 1979. However harsh the treatment has been, it is a problem that has had to be faced. By facing up to it we have made industry more competitive and much better able to face the future. We had concealed unemployment. The more we delayed facing that, the greater the ultimate increase in unemployment would have been.
      Mr. Gould: Rubbish.
      Mr. Lamont: The hon. Gentleman says, "Rubbish," but everyone here knows that it is true.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Clause 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 22

      CORPORATION TAX: SMALL COMPANIES
      Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
      Mr. Lamont: The clause reduces the rate of corporation tax for 1987 to 27 per cent. for companies whose profits do not exceed £100,000.
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      Since 1979 we have regularly declared the need to encourage activity in the small firms sector. We have not just paid lip service to this, we have progressively introduced a number of measures to help small businesses. Clause 22 is one of a number of measures in this year's Finance Bill that are aimed at small businesses. It reduces the rate of corporation tax on the profits of small companies from 29 to 27 per cent.
      This is the latest in a series of cuts. Since we have been in office, the small companies rate of corporation tax has been cut by 15 percentage points from 42 per cent. That is a drop of over one third. This is now the fifth year in succession that we have been able to keep the rate of tax for the small company in line with the basic rate of income tax, which is also the marginal tax rate for the vast majority of unincorporated businesses. That is an important reason for aligning the two.
      We believe that the reductions provide the right kind of climate for business to thrive, but that is not all that we have done for small companies. For example, we have introduced innovative schemes to help companies to raise capital for expansion — for instance, the business expansion scheme, and many of the changes that we have made on the venture capital scene.
      I hope that the change, and the clause, will be acceptable to the House.
      Sir Raymond Gower: This is a truly excellent change, and I feel that it should not pass without comment. Nothing can be more profitable than for us to assist the smaller companies. On the whole, the growth rate of such companies bears comparison with, and in many cases exceeds, that of larger companies. To that extent, we are investing in the right place.
      I welcome the clause. It is a first-class innovation.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Clause 22 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
      To report progress and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. Neubert.]
      Committee report progress; to sit again tomorrow.

  Value Added Tax
  8.43 pm
  The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Peter Brooke): I beg to move,
  That the Value Added Tax (International Services) Order 1987 (S.I., 1987, No. 518), dated 25th March 1987, a copy of which was laid before this House on 25th March, be approved.
  I think that it will be for the convenience of the House if we consider also the second motion:
  That the Value Added Tax (Betting, Gaming and Lotteries) Order 1987 (S.I., 1987, No. 517), dated 25th March 1987, a copy of which was laid before this House on 25th March, be approved.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): If that is the wish of the House, so be it.
  Mr. Brooke: The purpose of the first order is to amend the zero-rating provisions of group 9 of schedule 5 to the VAT Act 1983 in two respects. The first is a change in liability of services supplied at events such as exhibitions, where United Kingdom treatment has been at variance with the practice in the other member states of the European Community. The second is to correct a minor technical error which occurred during the process of consolidating VAT law and this relates to the VAT liability of financial services connected with the export of goods from the United Kingdom.
  The United Kingdom has recently accepted as correct and logical the view expressed by the European Community Commission, backed by all other member states, that exhibition services should be taxed in the country in which the event takes place. This has different consequences for United Kingdom and overseas exhibitors. I shall deal first with United Kingdom exhibitions. Hitherto, we had zero-rated supplies by United Kingdom traders to overseas firms participating at United Kingdom exhibitions, taking the line — now discredited—that such supplies were advertising services falling to be taxed in the country of the recipient. Those supplies were zero rated under item 5 or 6 of group 9 by virtue of the exception contained in note 4(b) and (c) to the group. Under that interpretation, the supplies fell to be taxed by the taxation authority in the country where the customer belonged.
  The correct interpretation is that exhibition services fall to be taxed in the country where the exhibition takes place. This order, by deleting note 4(b) and (c) from group 9, ensures that supplies of exhibition services by United Kingdom traders to overseas exhibitors at United Kingdom exhibitions are excluded from zero rating, and thus become taxable in the United Kingdom at the standard rate.
  The net revenue yield from the change will be minimal, because most of the overseas traders to whom tax will be charged will be able to apply to the Customs and Excise for refunds of the tax. At present, such refunds are limited under the eighth VAT directive to Community traders, but from 1 January next most non-Community traders will also become eligible under the recently adopted 13th VAT directive.
  I now turn to exhibitions held overseas. When exhibition services are supplied by United Kingdom traders at exhibitions outside the United Kingdom, under the EC sixth directive they fall to be taxed in the country
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  where the exhibition takes place, and should therefore be entirely relieved of United Kingdom tax by means of zero rating. The United Kingdom has always followed that line except for stands hired to United Kingdom companies. However, in the light of the new interpretation, there are doubts about the vires for this under United Kingdom law. The order is intended to place the matter beyond doubt by amending item 3 of group 9 to cover all services at exhibitions, conferences and meetings which are events similar in nature to those already catered for in that item.
  I do not think that the House will wish me at this late hour to go into the details of the order, but I shall refer to the minor technical error that I mentioned earlier which the order corrects.
  The original provisions of the Finance Act 1972, and the subsequent amendments contained in successive Finance Acts, were brought together in a consolidation exercise to form the VAT Act 1983. In the process the items of the exempt group dealing with finance were renumbered, but item 9 of group 9 of schedule 5 to the new Act, cross-referring to those items, was not amended to reflect the renumbering of the exempt group. Article 6 corrects that error.
  I commend the order to the House.
  I now turn to the second order. Certain changes in Northern Ireland social law have recently been implemented by regulations to permit the promotion of certain types of gaming, mainly bingo, which were previously illegal in the Province. The changes enable bingo to be promoted in broadly the same way as in the rest of the United Kingdom. So as to enable the VAT treatment of such gaming to be consistent throughout the United Kingdom, the minor changes to the relevant VAT law which this order proposes are necessary.
  The VAT treatment of betting and gaming is governed by group 4 of schedule 6 to the VAT Act 1983, which exempts from VAT most forms of betting and gaming. The general principle, to which there are only minor exceptions, is that activities liable to excise duty do not bear VAT, and vice versa. Most activities which are not subject to excise duty are, therefore, expressly excluded from the exemption by virtue of the legal notes to item 1 of group 4, and these excluded activities are taxable at the standard rate. One such activity, and that with which the order is principally concerned, is the granting of a right to take part in a game in respect of which a charge may be made by virtue of regulations under section 14 of the Gaming Act 1968. Broadly speaking, this concerns bingo and other gaming conducted on bingo club premises for which a charge is made for participation.
  The relevant VAT provision, note (1)(b) to item 1 of group 4, is tied to a provision of the Gaming Act 1968. However, the Gaming Act does not extend to Northern Ireland, where betting and gaming have traditionally been subject to separate social legislation. Thus, note (1)(b) to item 1 of group 4, as at present drafted, has no effect in Northern Ireland. Hitherto, this has not mattered because the types of game covered by the note were illegal in the Province and it was not thought necessary or desirable to provide for their standard rating when group 4 was originally enacted.
  As I have indicated, the position has now changed, with the promotion of bingo having been made legal in Northern Ireland with effect from 16 February 1987. Bingo is thereafter likely to become firmly established in

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  the Province, and, in order that the VAT treatment of such activities should be consistent with that in Great Britain, note (1)(b) to group 4 needs to be widened.
  The VAT revenue yield can only be speculative at the moment, since it will depend on the extent to which bingo promoters take advantage of the new social law provisions, but it is unlikely to be significant. It is not expected to exceed £1 million in a full year and will clearly fall short of this figure in the current financial year.
  The interval between the implementation date of this order and the slightly earlier implementation date of the relevant Northern Ireland social law provisions has negligible significance in VAT revenue terms since it reflects the time needed by prospective bingo promoters to obtain the necessary authority to conduct bingo operations. In practice, therefore, legal bingo operations are not expected to take place much before the operative date of this order.
  In conclusion, I should add that a parallel change has already been made in respect of bingo duty in last year's Finance Act.
  I commend the order to the House.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Value Added Tax (International Services) Order 1987 (S.I. 1987, No. 518), dated 25th March 1987, a copy of which was laid before this House on 25th March, be approved.

  Value Added Tax

    VALUE ADDED TAX
    Resolved,
    That the Value Added Tax (Betting, Gaming and Lotteries) Order 1987 (S.I., 1987, No. 517), dated 25th March 1987, a copy of which was laid before this House on 25th March, be approved.—[Mr. Brooke.]

    NORFOLK AND SUFFOLK BROADS (re- committed) BILL
    Ordered,
    That the Order for Committee be discharged and that the Bill, as amended in the Select Committee, be re-committed to a Standing Committee.—[Mr. Neubert.]

  British-made Goods
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Neubert.]
  8.51 pm
  Mr. Kenneth Carlisle: I am grateful for the chance to hold this debate on a major campaign to persuade the British to buy British, and I am very glad that my hon. Friend the Minister for Trade, who has done so much for British trade, is here to reply to the debate.
  No war is a good war, and we are fortunate to be living in an age when wars are no longer seen as solutions, so it is with considerable concern that we should regard the recent rampant enthusiam for a "lovely little trade war". In the past few weeks, the ugly face of protectionism has made a dramatic come-back. Even as I speak, there is legislation in America to tax certain imports.
  Some Members of this House have repeatedly called for the protection of British industry as a means of rebuilding British manufacturing, proposing that we copy the Japanese. Let me establish at the beginning that I believe that mindless chauvinism is futile. If we as a country retreat into protectionism, we are dooming ourselves to a market of ready-made, inferior products. We cannot copy the Japanese, simply because we are not Japanese. It is for us, as a trading nation, to insist on fair trade. I believe that protectionism is a perilous form of patriotism, just because it is so disastrous as an economic strategy.
  One of the fruits of living in a free society is the freedom to choose what we buy and to buy what we choose. It also turns out to be one of the best ways of creating harmony between nations. The informal relationship of trade between nations is, though not foolproof, the best insurance policy for peace that man has yet devised. How, therefore, have we reached this pitch of trade war fever where there is more enthusiasm for trading punches than for trading nations? It is because Britain, like America. went too far.
  We moved from being the kind of country that Adam Smith described in "The Wealth of Nations"—a prudent nation that welcomes commodities from foreign countries when they are cheaper than we ourselves can produce—to a country that now imports more than one third of all manufactured goods. Britain is the fifth largest industrial economy, but our imports, as a percentage of our gross domestic product, our overall wealth, are 34 per cent., and rising, and they are higher than those of Germany, France, Italy, the USA and —surprise, surprise — Japan. I submit that 34 per cent. is a terrifying and unnecessary statistic.
  In the last seven years we in this country have witnessed a radical change of gears. Now we are seeing an exciting reverse in Britain's economic decline, a reappearance of British vitality and a rediscovery of the vigorous inventiveness that is worthy of the country that was the birthplace of the steam engine and the cradle of industry.
  The complacency that brought about our decline, and certainly installed in many of us a preference for imports that were better designed, cheaper and more reliable, has been checked. The institutional arthritis — a disease characterised by too many regulations, too many laws, too powerful unions, too high taxes and too many interests —shows every sign of remission. We, the British, have taken a very long time to learn to be competitive and we still cannot afford to make a wrong turn, but the facts and

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  figures show that we are going in the right direction. We simply cannot afford to retreat into protectionism. Instead, we must use the tried and true formula of investment in high technology to create growth and to improve our living standards.
  However, there is something that every citizen in Britain can do as well. Every man, woman and child in this country can influence the future of this country—and influence it powerfully—by what they buy. That means, first, looking for a product that is British made and, if it is good enough or, better still, if it is better, then buy British. No consumer should be deprived of choice, but if every British consumer makes just a little effort to see if a British product is available, to compare and, if it is good enough, then to buy British, the result will be greater job security and greater creation of jobs.
  I am not saying that that is easy. We are now so inundated with imports that, if we tried, we probably could not find a British typewriter, or dishwasher, or car radio. I am saying that all we have to do is to try.
  Two organisations in this country are dedicated to raising our consumer consciousness. One of these is Think British. It has published some troubling and fascinating statistics. Import penetration of all manufactured goods has risen from 25 per cent. in 1981 to 34 per cent. today. Without a campaign to think British, imports will certainly grow. The average household of a husband, wife and two children spends about £110 a week on consumer goods, services, food and drink. Of this £110, an average of £30 is spent on imported goods, and this is rising.
  Research carried out by The Economist intelligence unit shows that if consumers switched just £5 a week, which is now spent on imported products, to quality British products, within two years the result would be the creation of 580,000 jobs and a £1·5 billion improvement in the balance of payments. I am sure that is of great interest to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Forth) because jobs are of great importance to him. That improvement could be achieved by the modest switch of £5 a week from imports back to quality British goods and services. If more than £5 a week were switched, the results would be even better.
  These statistics are striking, but more startling is the fact that they do not seem to be taken to heart by the British public. To change this, I urge the acceptance of three duties—duties that are the opposite of trade duties—which are intended to lay to rest any attraction that those dated trade duties might have.
  The duties that I have in mind are a duty on those who manufacture and market goods in this country, a duty on the purchasers and a duty on the advertising agencies and the media. As I have emphasised from the beginning, manufacturers have to produce goods of the right quality at competitive prices and deliver quickly when they say they will. West Germans buy goods produced in Germany because they are good, not because they are cheaper or because West Germans are patriotic. That procedure is right. For that to occur here, we look to the manufacturers.
  A very promising effort in this direction has been the Better Made in Britain initiative. This group was set up to jolt manufacturers into producing what retailers really want. It holds exhibitions where retailers exhibit products that they import and where one hears the often depressing stories that led retailers to look outside Britain — predictable sagas of poor quality, unrealistic times and
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  delivery dates not kept. In those exhibitions hungry and determined British manufacturers prowl and plot how they can outmatch the competition. Manufacturers have learnt the lesson of the 1980s, that we simply have to work harder and manage smarter.
  The figures of Better Made in Britain estimate that for every £35,000 of imports, one job is lost. That is a gloomy statistic. But there is also a growing number of success stories. One example is the Stuart Mensley Knitwear company. In 1983 the company employed 120 people. Today it employs 500 people because of contracts that grew out of Better Made in Britain. There are many other examples, too.
  The second duty is on the purchaser — both the retailer and the consumer. Over Easter I was in the United States of America. Its trade deficit in 1986 towered towards $170 billion, or 4 per cent. of its gross domestic product. Such a huge deficit is too great to sustain. It poses terrible threats to the world economy, especially as it leads inexorably to protectionism. Everywhere I went in the United States of America I was struck by the abundance of foreign-made goods to the point of absurdity. I found a 100 per cent. cotton shirt in a shop in Greenwood, Mississippi — the land of cotton — that was made in China. America is in a severe crisis simply because it has abandoned the label "Made in the USA". They have dealt with that problem by going deeper and deeper into debt. That is a warning to Britain, if we need it.
  If we look in our own homes at our televisions, cookers, refrigerators, irons, washing machines, vacuum cleaners and kitchen clocks or at the clothes and shoes in our cupboards, we can see how far we have gone in the same direction as the Americans. One will not always want to buy British, even after one has thought about it, but the thing is to think British. The job saved by buying British could be one's own.
  The third duty is both a duty and a challenge and it is aimed at the members of our society who have already made spectacular profits from selling British — the advertising and media folk. I want them to invest the skills and talents so brilliantly evident in the selling of British in the buying of British. Seven different agencies worked on the publicity programmes surrounding the three major privatisations — £12 million was spent on British Telecom, £29 million on the sale of British Gas and £6·5 million on British Airways. I propose that the agencies which have been instrumental in those privatisation campaigns should each create one television advertisement which will bring home to the British consumer the vital connection between the shopping bag and the dole queue.
  We need a nationwide campaign which brings the same sense of urgency and possibility that inspired more than 3 million people to buy shares for the first time in British Telecom, British Gas, British Airways and other privatised companies. I challenge those writers, actors and actresses, designers and cameramen to invest their imaginations and skills in a campaign that will make every consumer a shareholder in Britain's future. As British advertising is art art envied and exported throughout the world, I feel that the campaign will be a celebration of that unique British product as well. At the very best, it should be "pure genius".
  I have made it clear that Britain cannot afford to retreat into protectionism, which serves only to protect poor design, inferior workmanship and irresponsible delivery. British products must be bought because they deserve to

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  be bought, because they meet the standards of quality and service. Above all, we must all be involved in this battle to regain Britain's competitive edge in the battle for jobs and for the revival of growth. We need a united front — a productive work force, the creative talents of the highly skilled persuaders and, finally, the conscious and caring consumer, the British public. If we can form a consensus, it could mean—we must bear this in mind—the creation of more than 500,000 jobs in two years. I believe that that is a goal that we all support.
  9.7 pm
  The Minister for Trade (Mr. Alan Clark): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Carlisle) for raising this extremely important topic and especially for the lucid and persuasive way in which he put his case, the way in which he set out his three goals and the imaginative and compelling way in which he discussed those three possible approaches. I assure him that we fully share his keenness for competitive British goods not just to capture a larger share of world markets but to recapture a larger share of our home markets. The whole House knows that we must expand our industrial base if we are to secure for the United Kingdom the extra jobs and living standards that we want.
  After six years of steady growth, exports of manufactured goods are at an all-time record; and they look set to grow even further this year. Manufacturing industry should therefore grow faster than the rest of the economy. Britain's successes in exporting are well known and, of course, they are to be encouraged and applauded. But it must be remembered that a pound earned at home is of absolutely equal value to a pound earned abroad.
  Last year, as my hon. Friend reminded us, imports again grew faster than exports, with all the signs, I am sorry to say, that they will continue to do so this year. A sustained effort will be needed if we are to ensure that the growing demand in the home market is to be met by our own industry and not someone else's. It is true—I know that my hon. Friend will admit this—that most of the free world trading nations, even West Germany, which has been acknowledged as successful, import on a substantial scale. We have to import that which we cannot make.
  One of the regrettable elements to which my hon. Friend drew attention is the fact that, with the glut of imports, we have lost the capacity to make certain things in our own country. Even were the British people to be alerted in the way he suggested to the possibility of choosing a British product and testing its qualities against a foreign import, the British product simply does not exist. We all regret that. It need not necessarily be a permanent omission. British manufacturing is recovering at a fast enough pace for it to begin to look seriously at the possibility of returning to some of the markets and some of the products that it has had to cede in more difficult times. But that is a second stage. We have to lay the goundwork along the lines that my hon. Friend suggested.
  Of course, even when we can make certain things, there can be sound economic arguments that mean that it is preferable to import and to use our own resources for something that we do better. Of course, we cannot ignore the matter — I do not think for one moment that my hon. Friend intended to—of customer choice. But—I cannot emphasise this strongly enough—I recognise the
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  concern about our level of imports and about whether employment opportunities are being put in jeopardy by the constantly rising level. Although many of my own instincts are to support a "Buy British" policy, I recognise that it will be effective only if it is equated with a customer's need to get value for money.
  Of course, protection is not necessarily the way to a better trading performance. Insulating domestic industries from the stimulus of international competition, as my hon. Friend properly reminded us, encourages inefficiency and resistance to change. But the Government have already put considerable effort into ridding British industry of such handicaps. Industrial relations are being transformed, and our reputation for quality is gradually and painstakingly being restored. Our policies derive from certainty that industry has to be competitive. We are therefore concerned to create the climate in which industry can thrive. I do not propose to drench my hon. Friend or the House with the statistics that we hear often enough about the progress that we are making, but the conditions in which British industry is now operating have improved out of all measure.
  When it comes to front-line action in making and selling goods, it is the responsibility of each supplier to make sure that he knows what the customer wants. That makes communication between buyers and sellers vitally important. In addition, the supplier must then try to match the quality, design, delivery and price expectations of the customer. Getting the communication right is not entirely a matter for suppliers. A great deal of power is wielded by purchasers, and the large ones especially have a responsibility to use that power effectively. The Government believe that it is in purchasers' own interests to use their commercial influence to help to improve the competitiveness of their suppliers. They stand to get better value for money, plus the cost and efficiency benefits of having a strong supplier base close at hand.
  That has certainly been the Government's approach to public purchasing. Our guidelines on public purchasing require public purchasers to secure best value for money. They remind public purchasers that, by deploying their massive purchasing power of £40 billion per annum on assets, goods and services to ensure the development of constructive buyer-supplier relationships, they can help to ensure that their own needs are met most cost-effectively and that the wider competitiveness of British industry is enhanced. In essence, we want public purchasers to buy products, processes and services that reflect the requirements, in terms and price, of world markets.
  We can all draw encouragement from the fact that our public purchasing is 95 per cent. British sourced. That shows that, even if the strict guidelines relating to the quality, delivery, appropriate meeting and conformity of needs are applied, and applied scrupulously, they do not necessarily exclude a 95 per cent. British purchasing content.
  The practices that public purchasers are asked to follow to achieve this include an early dialogue about their requirements with potential suppliers; encouragement of innovation; specifying requirements in performance terms rather than detailed design which may stifle innovation; framing specifications around appropriate standards to enable economies of scale and to help exports; encouraging suppliers to be assessed to British Standard 5750 — the standard for quality systems; and, where appropriate, insisting on independently certified goods to

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  reduce in-house inspection costs and costly failures; maintenance of even ordering patterns to allow efficient production planning; and debriefing of suppliers on request.
  Similar initiatives are being taken by the more forward-looking parts of British industry. "Positive purchasing" is a phrase which is increasingly cropping up in discussions with companies. It describes a practical way of stimulating greater activity in the economy. Like the public purchasing initiative, it involves organisations in carefully examining their purchasing practices. The aim is to ensure that they are getting the best possible value from their suppliers in terms of quality, design, price and delivery. It involves them in developing constructive partnerships with suppliers which will encourage the development of more competitive products. This approach, if widely adopted, should provide opportunities for the purchasers to obtain better value for money and for British manufacturers to prove their worth and expand their markets.
  The retail sector in particular, with its enormous purchasing power, is potentially very influential. My colleagues and officials in the Department of Trade and Industry have been discussing these issues with the major retail companies. More generally, because positive purchasing policies must start from a commitment at the top, my colleagues are meeting the chief executives of major companies to encourage more to follow the good example of those, such as Marks and Spencer, which have combined a thoroughly commercial approach with very high levels of United Kingdom sourcing.
  The process of communication is also greatly assisted by the enterprise of such initiatives as Better Made in Britain and I was especially glad to hear the tribute paid by my hon. Friend to that organisation. Those exhibitions make an important contribution to getting across the message that the quality of British goods and the efficiency of British companies have improved faster than consumer's attitudes towards them. That change is the key to widening the awareness that I believe will achieve the results which we all want and which have been shown can be achieved in public purchasing.
  That is achieved by bringing the requirements of industrial purchasers and retailers to the notice of large numbers of suppliers. So far, the exhibitions have covered clothing, knitwear, footwear, home furnishings, lighting, carpets, furniture, textiles, do-it-yourself kits, building products and hardware. All those have been extremely effective in heightening the awareness of purchasers to British alternatives, often in cases where purchasers did not realise such alternatives existed until they attended the exhibition and realised the full scale of what was available.
  The "Think British" campaign to which my hon. Friend referred is also relevant. The campaign specifically aims to raise consumer awareness of the quality of British goods and to encourage consumers to seek out competitive United Kingdom products. My hon. Friend suggested an advertising campaign, and I like that idea very much. I can see that his challenge to those specialists who have made very large sums of money from advertising for various privatisation campaigns should be considered very seriously by those organisations and I hope that we will hear more about that idea.
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  The Department is already supporting the "Think British" campaign to research ways of setting up a general advertising campaign. Where there is an element of direct Government support—as my hon. Friend is aware, and the House accepts with varying degrees of tolerance—that must be consistent with the treaty of Rome. It must draw consumers' attention to the quality of goods built to certain recognised quality criteria rather than relate them to any particular national origin. Industry, like the Government, is bound by its treaty of Rome obligations. We cannot discriminate, directly or indirectly, against the products of other member nations. Any advertising campaign which has Government sponsorship must have regard to those obligations.
  A great deal is being done, both by Government and by industry, to assist in the all-important process of communication between users and suppliers. I draw the House's attention also to the practical help my Department provides to companies which, in trying to match the expectations of their customers or potential customers, find that they need to improve the quality, design or marketing of their goods.
  In 1983 we launched the national quality campaign as part of our wider effort to increase the competitiveness of British industry. The aim was to produce in industry a total commitment to quality. After extensive launch promotions, the campaign concentrated on encouraging the total quality approach on a sectoral basis, and on companies interested in promoting quality with their suppliers and sub-contractors. The response from industry, particularly the willingness of management and others to work constructively together, with support from the Department of Trade and Industry, has been most encouraging.
  British industry has advanced in its recovery and the quality of its products is greatly improved, yet a certain hangover from earlier days, when people regrettably bought the foreign product because it was chic or fashionable to do so, still colours the attitude of consumers. All British manfacturers should return to their former practice of proudly and confidently marking the origin of their products. The imprint "Made in England" or "Made in Britain" has largely disappeared. One wag has said that it is more often found on goods from Taiwan than on goods made in Britain.
  An essential part of the campaign my hon. Friend suggested is for consumers to have all the help we can give them in determining whether products are made in England or Britain. The treaty of Rome does not prevent British manufacturers from marking the origin of their products. The reputation of manufacturers is such that they should consider this seriously. The House should be grateful to my hon. Friend for his service in putting the argument so succinctly. It is an important subject. I hope that he will remain in touch with me and my Department and that the original and imaginative challenge he threw down to the various advertising agencies will be considered seriously by them.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-three minutes past Nine o'clock.