No-Smoking Areas in Public Houses (Hansard, 29 October 1986)

§ Mr. Joseph Ashton (Bassetlaw)

I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require public houses and all other premises licensed for the sale of alcohol to provide a no-smoking area of not less than forty per cent. of the area available to the public. This small Bill is suitable for the fag-end of a Parliament, one might say. It is encouraging to see the size of the distinguished turnout to welcome it today. Anyone who watched "Yes, Prime Minister" last night will have seen a programme which, in jest but also in all seriousness, showed the difficulty of introducing anti-smoking legislation, bearing in mind vested interests, electoral consequences, loss of taxation revenue and other issues. Nevertheless, we have to take notice of the recent book, "The Big Kill" presented by the Health Education Council of the British Medical Association.

In my constituency, 161 people died last year from smoking-related diseases—heart attacks, lung cancer or emphysema. Smoking was the cause of one in seven deaths. Every day, nine beds in Bassetlaw hospital are occupied predominantly by smokers. This costs the National Health Service well over £500,000 in that constituency. Every year, 200,000 people die from smoking-related diseases.

This small Bill has been introduced because pubs are the last public area of leisure, travel or activity which do not have no-smoking areas for those people who prefer to breathe clean air. In our trains, planes, buses, theatres, London tubes, shops and cinemas, those members of the public who do not want to smoke are well catered for and have the choice of moving from smokers. That does not happen in pubs.

A Department of Health and Social Security survey in June 1973 showed that 79 per cent. of non-smokers would prefer a no-smoking area in restaurants or pubs; 71 per cent. of ex-smokers would prefer such an area; and 43 per cent. of smokers would like non-smokers to be catered for. Yet, of all the pubs I have visited—it must have totalled many over the years—I know of only one, the Fat Cat, in Elmer street, Sheffield, which has a no-smoking room, where there is usually a larger attendance than on the smoking side.

Every summer, thousands of customers sit outside the pub because they prefer to sit in the fresh air rather than in the smoke-filled interior. Customers regularly vote with their feet. They buy their beer at the supermarket and drink it at home rather than put up with pollution in the pub. If a pub customer tries to open a window or keep a door open, as I have done, he quickly finds himself evicted.

This is not an attempt to ban smoking; it is merely a Bill to segregate smokers. [Interruption.] It provides for voluntary segregation so that non-smokers have the right to sit in a part of the pub where they can eat their steak and kidney pies and drink their beer without having the air contaminated by nicotine. It is an attempt to make smokers realise that smoking can be as anti-social as spitting used to be, or belching is now, or any of the other unfortunate habits which have, thankfully, died out. A recent MORI poll found that eight out of 10 people agreed that there was a need for a special area at work so that non-smokers could at least get some relief from working with people constantly polluting the atmosphere. Pub staff breathe in smoke all day with no respite.

336 The Bill is not an attempt to ban smoking. It is an attempt to prod the brewers into providing non-smoking sections in their premises such as those provided by British Rail and British Airways, so that people using these facilities have a choice. At present they have no choice.

There is no legislation that says that there should be no-smoking areas on trains, undergrounds or planes, but once owners of the organisations in such sectors introduce no-smoking area, they quickly become acceptable. I am certain that, if the brewers realised that there is a demand for no-smoking areas in pubs, the last major leisure activity in this country that does not have them would be happy to introduce them voluntarily.

§ Mr. Michael Brown (Brigg and Cleethorpes)

The Bill is one of the worst examples of nanny state Socialism for a long time. Its paternalism is surpassed only by the proposals made by the head of Sweden's national welfare board last month for legislation forcing bars to introduce one or two alcohol-free evenings each week. Conservative Members, as they believe in reducing Government regulations and control over industry and individuals,should have no problem in defeating this ridiculous measure.

The Bill is unnecessary. If there is a demand for no-smoking bars, sooner or later market forces will satisfy such a demand. Examples such as The Lamb in the City of London, or the Maltman in Glasgow prove that legislation is unnecessary and, as the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) has conceded, there is no legislation that requires British Rail or British Airways to create separate smoking and no-smoking zones. Secondly, more pubs are installing sophisticated air cleaning systems that remove 99 per cent. of tobacco smoke and indoor pollutants. One manufacturer provides pubs with "clean air pub" stickers for those establishments that install such air cleaners, and the solution is surely ventilation and not legislation.

The hon. Member's proposal would be unpopular as well as unnecessary. He quoted a MORI poll, and I shall quote a Harris poll which shows that only 18 per cent. of a sample believe that the subject of the Bill should be a matter for central Government. It is unnecessary and unpopular, and could be unworkable. Would we have smoking prevention officers, presumably paid at taxpayers' expense?

The main case for restricting smoking in public places —passive smoking—now appears to be unfounded, as a research paper published in the Cancer Research Campaign's journal this summer said. The cancer researchers concluded: Our findings appear consistent with the general view, based on all the available evidence, that any effect of passive smoking on risk of lung cancer or other smoking associated diseases is at most quite small, if it exists at all. Commenting on the controversy that this article aroused, the epidemiologists Professor Doll and Professor Peto described the evidence as "equivocal", the risks as "trivial" and the passive smoking case for further restriction on smoking in public places as a "matter of personal opinion". Anti-smoking campaigners have rallied support for the Bill because it provides them with yet another opportunity to make the nation's 17 million smokers feel guilty and defensive about their habit.

Parliament should tell these people that smoking, like eating and drinking, are matters of personal life style and 337 it would be almost as offensive to introduce legislation compelling pub landlords to provide smoking areas as it is to enforce no-smoking areas. The hon. Member and his colleagues were quick to reprimand my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security for telling people in the north what to do. The hon. Member and his colleagues will have to answer more to the people in the north for what he is trying to impose on them than anything that my hon. Friend has done. I ask the House to oppose the Bill.

Division No. 301]	[4.24 pm
AYES
Anderson, Donald	Home Robertson, John
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack	Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Ashton, Joe	Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Hillh'd)
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)	Kennedy, Charles
Barron, Kevin	Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Beckett, Mrs Margaret	Lamond, James
Beith, A. J.	Latham, Michael
Best, Keith	Lewis, Terence (Worsley)
Bevan, David Gilroy	Loyden, Edward
Bidwell, Sydney	McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Boothroyd, Miss Betty	McKay, Allen (Penistone)
Bray, Dr Jeremy	MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire)
Bruce, Malcolm	McNamara, Kevin
Buchan, Norman	Marek, Dr John
Campbell-Savours, Dale	Marland, Paul
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)	Maxton, John
Clarke, Thomas	Meyer, Sir Anthony
Clwyd, Mrs Ann	Michie, William
Coleman, Donald	Mikardo, Ian
Cook, Robin F. (Livingston)	Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)
Corbett, Robin	Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)
Cunliffe, Lawrence	Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Dalyell, Tam	O'Brien, William
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)	Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Deakins, Eric	Radice, Giles
Dixon, Donald	Raffan, Keith
Dobson, Frank	Randall, Stuart
Dormand, Jack	Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Douglas, Dick	Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
Dubs, Alfred	Robertson, George
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.	Rogers, Allan
Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE)	Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)
Fatchett, Derek	Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Faulds, Andrew	Sedgemore, Brian
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)	Sheerman, Barry
Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)	Sheldon, Rt Hon R.
Fisher, Mark	Silkin, Rt Hon J.
Foster, Derek	Sims, Roger
Foulkes, George	Skinner, Dennis
Fraser, J. (Norwood)	Soames, Hon Nicholas
Godman, Dr Norman	Steel, Rt Hon David
Golding, Mrs Llin	Strang, Gavin
Gould, Bryan	Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Hamilton, James (M'well N)	Wainwright, R.
Hanley, Jeremy	Wareing, Robert
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy	Wigley, Dafydd
Hayes, J.	Wilkinson, John
Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)	Williams, Rt Hon A.

Winnick, David	Tellers for the Ayes:
Yeo, Tim	Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse and
	Mr. Roland Boyes.
NOES
Adley, Robert	Lester, Jim
Alexander, Richard	Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd)
Ashdown, Paddy	Lilley, Peter
Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H.	Lord, Michael
Atkins, Robert (South Ribble)	McCrindle, Robert
Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)	Maclean, David John
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony	McLoughlin, Patrick
Blackburn, John	McQuarrie, Albert
Brandon-Bravo, Martin	Madden, Max
Brinton, Tim	Mallon, Seamus
Brittan, Rt Hon Leon	Mason, Rt Hon Roy
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes)	Monro, Sir Hector
Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E)	Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Buck, Sir Antony	Morris, M. (N'hampton S)
Budgen, Nick	Ottaway, Richard
Butler, Rt Hon Sir Adam	Patchett, Terry
Chapman, Sydney	Pawsey, James
Cockeram, Eric	Pollock, Alexander
Crowther, Stan	Powley, John
du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward	Proctor, K. Harvey
Dykes, Hugh	Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Emery, Sir Peter	Rossi, Sir Hugh
Fallon, Michael	Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Farr, Sir John	Skeet, Sir Trevor
Finsberg, Sir Geoffrey	Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Forrester, John	Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)	Speed, Keith
Fox, Sir Marcus	Spicer, Jim (Dorset W)
Gale, Roger	Stern, Michael
Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde)	Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)
Gorst, John	Taylor, John (Solihull)
Gow, Ian	Temple-Morris, Peter
Gower, Sir Raymond	Thorne, Neil (Ilford S)
Greenway, Harry	Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Griffiths, Sir Eldon	Waller, Gary
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)	Walters, Dennis
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter	Watts, John
Heathcoat-Amory, David	Whitfield, John
Hickmet, Richard	Whitney, Raymond
Hind, Kenneth	Wiggin, Jerry
Howarth, Gerald (Cannock)	Winterton, Mrs Ann
Hughes, Dr Mark (Durham)	Winterton, Nicholas
Jones, Robert (Herts W)	Wood, Timothy
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine
Kershaw, Sir Anthony	Tellers for the Noes:
King, Roger (B'ham N'field)	Mr. Rob Hayward and
Lawrence, Ivan	Mr. Eric Forth.