§ Mr. DixonWe support this amendment, which is basically in line with the Labour Party's amendment No. 11, which was unfortunately not selected. Clause 6 takes a significant step by repealing section 3 of the Equal Pay Act 1970. This means that without the amendment there will be no provision for any formal enforcement machinery. My hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Ms. Richardson) referred to this in Committee and said that, although we did not table amendments in Committee, we would raise the matter on Report, as we are now doing.
The Government's argument is that the provisions of clause 6 void discriminatory terms in collective agreements, and thus render the Central Arbitration Committee unnecessary because it cannot amend a term that is void. However, the Government have left no mechanism to enforce such agreements. Therefore, there is no authority to which an agreement that may be thought to contain a discriminatory term may be referred, and which can duly declare it void. It may also prove necessary to amend rather than to void an agreement to avoid uncertainty and confusion for both management and employees.
1254 9.15 pm
The CAC is a specialised body with considerable expertise and it assists in the task of arbitration and law enforcement. It would therefore be more appropriate to extend its powers so that it could amend directly and indirectly discriminatory agreements and pay structures rather than to curtail those powers as this clause seeks to do.
Part of the amendment deals with industrial tribunals. A minimum programme of reform should be introduced to set up specialist tribunals to deal with sex and race discrimination only. Specialised training should be available for members of tribunals and that training should show them how to apply the legislation and how to administer the proceedings so that they can be as clear and informal as they are intended to be. Tribunals should also have powers to recommend the reinstatement of those who have lost their jobs and power to recommend compensation which markedly reflects the real financial losses of the claimant. They should also have powers to recommend a comprehensive course of action to eliminate the problems which led to the case.
The only proposal by the Government is to recommend the imposition of a £25 deposit on all applicants. Many of my hon. Friends spoke about that earlier. My hon. Friend the Member for Bow and Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) spoke about the loss of earnings by a person who has to appear before a tribunal and also about applicants who have to pay transport charges. A tribunal does not always hear a case in the area where a person lives or works and such a person has to find a certain amount of money for travel.
The Minister has not accepted that it is a traumatic experience for a person to appear before a tribunal. Perhaps many hon. Members do not fully understand that such people are ordinary low-paid workers. To them an appearance at a tribunal is like standing before a court. It has a traumatic effect on them. The amendments should be accepted. Tribunals should be overhauled and our recommendations should be accepted by the Minister. We support the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mrs. Shields) and propose to vote in favour of it.
§ Mr. MikardoI shall address myself briefly to a point that was made by the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mrs Shields) and by my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) — the operation and the competence of industrial tribunals. Over the years I have attended a good many tribunals, sometimes in cases involving members of my union and sometimes in cases involving constituents. Not surprisingly, tribunals vary a good deal in quality. Some of them are good but some of them seem to be lacking in competence and in an understanding of what they are doing.
One of the problems addressed by the hon. Member for Ryedale and by my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow is that the chairmen of tribunals receive no training about what they are supposed to do. They are especially lacking in a consciousness of sex discrimination problems and, as we have heard, the problems confronting industrial tribunals are now much more the problems of women than they have been in the past.
The criteria by which members of tribunals are selected seem to be absolutely wrong. As far as I know, the last examination of the operation of tribunals and of their chairmen was made in 1983 by a group of lawyers. The 1255 first thing they looked at was the form which had to be filled up by an aspirant chairman of a tribunal. In that form a person who sought to become a chairman had to give his qualifications. I do not know whether the form is still in use, three years later. Perhaps it has been changed. The Minister may tell us.
If it has not been changed, it is a very strange form. It does not ask the applicant to say whether he has any knowledge of industrial relations, or any experience in industrial relations. It does not ask him to say whether he has any knowledge of industrial law, or any experience in industrial law. It does not ask him to list his professional qualifications. However, it asks him to give a list of the military medals and honours he has received. If, therefore, one wants to be the chairman of an industrial tribunal, the principal criterion is that one should get oneself a row of gongs. Then it does not matter if one does not know about other matters.
This group of lawyers said that they had found that many chairmen have no experience of or even an interest in industrial relations. They quoted two newly appointed industrial tribunal chairmen, one of whom confessed that he had spent 30 years in divorce and property law and that he knew nothing about industrial relations law. He said, "I shall have to bone up on it." The other freely admitted and, indeed, seemed to be proud of the fact that in his whole life he had never met a trade union official.
We have referred to the problems faced by women who appear before industrial tribunals. The hon. Member for Ryedale mentioned sensitivity to sex discrimination matters in industrial tribunals. Only 7 per cent. of the chairmen of industrial tribunals are women. We are dealing with a sex discrimination Bill. One cannot have more sex discrimination than that. Is the Minister able to tell me that there are 13 men who are qualified to chair industrial tribunals for every woman who is qualified to chair an industrial tribunal? I am sure that he will not tell me that. If he did, nobody would believe him.
There is much weight in what has been said by the hon. Member for Ryedale and by my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow. The Government should bone up on the qualifications that are required properly to run industrial tribunals and they should examine the ways in which their operations ought to be improved, because they are susceptible to a great deal of improvement.
§ Mr. LeeI know that during earlier stages of this Bill there have been many interesting discussions about the need for the CAC to have responsibility for settling disputes which might arise where agreements are unlawfully discriminatory. Opposition Members, both in proposing and supporting this amendment, have repeated some of the arguments previously advanced.
The amendment we are considering of course goes further. It would apparently give power to consider agreements—I almost said to "police" agreements—not only to the CAC but also to industrial tribunals and the Employment Appeal Tribunal.
The proposed amendment is so wide-ranging that it is imprecise— I must say defective. It does not say who can, or cannot, refer a dispute for a decision. It does not set any time limit on such referral and it does not say how it will he known which body is "appropriate", nor who will decide appeals against such decisions. It does not say what will happen if one party refers a dispute to the CAC while the other, simultaneously, has referred it to the EAT— 1256 all this of course at possibly the same time as an individual employee has applied to a tribunal for a decision on her or his individual position. I do not, however, want to labour the technical defects in the amendment, since I consider there are major reasons why it should he rejected.
The procedure which the amendment seeks to introduce is unnecessary. I do not want to weary hon. Members by repeating arguments already well argued at earlier stages, but I fear I must do so in some measure.
Opposition Members are concerned about cases where one side or the other refuses to renegotiate an agreement. They have, as on earlier occasions, painted a sorry picture of industrial relations in this country, where rights of individuals are ignored and legislation blatantly disregarded. It is surely more likely that such a sad state of affairs should arise through ignorance or accident rather than by design, and I shall later describe the avenues through which help and advice can be obtained. But in what seems to me the unlikely event of either or both parties to an agreement refusing to change a term they know to be discriminatory, they will he faced, as my hon. Friend the Member for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale (Mr. Lang) emphasised during ealier discussions, with the right of individuals to complain to a tribunal if they feel they are suffering discrimination.
Opposition Members have raised objections to this line of defence, but do they really wish to denigrate this fundamental principle of employment law, the right of individuals to seek personal redress and financial compensation where they have suffered because of a breach of legislation? People have had this right under sex discrimination legislation since 1975 and we do not therefore envisage a great increase in industrial tribunal complaints as a result of clause 6. But the fact remains that an intransigent employer is likely to be faced with complaints leading to compensation and almost certainly to costs being awarded against the firm for its cynical disregard of the law. An intransigent trades union could also be faced with tribunal proceedings for knowingly aiding an unlawful act.
The hon. Member for Ryedale (Mrs. Shields), the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Dixon) and expecially the hon. Member for Bow and Poplar (Mr. Mikardo) referred to the training of tribunal chairmen. I will study the points that have been made, especially the knowledgeable contribution from the hon. Member for Bow and Poplar. All industrial tribunal chairmen have legal qualifications and, in addition, it is planned that special seminars should take place on discrimination cases. Nevertheless, I will consider whether we are going as far as is appropriate in the circumstances, given the comments that have been made.
It seems to me that it would be a very unusual employer who would accept such costs and not insist on renegotiation of the discriminatory terms. Moreover, I am sure that the Equal Opportunities Commission would want to use its powers of persuasion or, failing that, its powers to conduct formal investigations to ensure that the situation was remedied.
Opposition Members have emphasised the difficulties parties will face in arriving at non-discriminatory terms. I think that they under-estimate the abilities and practical expertise of both employers and trade unions. However, if help is needed it is freely available from the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service and the Equal Opportunities Commission. If the employer and the union 1257 still cannot agree on the change, they can ask ACAS to appoint an independent arbitrator or, by mutual agreement, refer the matter to the Central Arbitration Committee. Nothing in this Bill prevents the CAC from continuing to provide its services where both parties are content for the agreement to be referred to it.
I hope that I have finally persuaded Opposition Members that the powers their many amendnents have sought to revive are unnecessary, unwieldy and undesirable. I hope, too, that they will agree to withdraw the amendment; otherwise, I must ask hon. Members to reject it.
§ Mrs. ShieldsI am glad to know that there will be some sort of training for the chairmen of industrial tribunals and that the tribunals will be looked at even though learned members sit on them. The main aspect of the amendment is that it enshrines an important principle—the right of individuals who feel that they have been discriminated against to receive effective arbitration.
As I am not happy with the Government's response to the amendment, I intend to press it to a vote.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 162, Noes 214.
1259| Division No. 292] | [9.28 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abse, Leo | Douglas, Dick |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Dubs, Alfred |
| Alton, David | Duffy, A E P |
| Anderson, Donald | Eadie, Alex |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Eastham, Ken |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Atkinson, N (Tottenham) | Ewing, Harry |
| Barnett, Guy | Fatchett, Derek |
| Barron, Kevin | Faulds, Andrew |
| Beckett, Mrs Margaret | Field, Frank (Btrkenhead) |
| Beith, A J | Fields, T (L'pool Broad Gn) |
| Bell, Stuart | Fisher, Mark |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Flannery, Martin |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Blair, Anthony | Foster, Derek |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Fraser, J. (Norwood) |
| Boyes, Roland | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Brown, Gordon (D'f'mlme E) | Godman, Dr Norman |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Brown, N. (N c'tle-u-Tyne E) | Gould, Bryan |
| Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) | Gourlay, Harry |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Hamilton, James (M'well N) |
| Bruce, Malcolm | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Buchan, Norman | Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J | Heffer, Eric S |
| Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) | Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) |
| Campbell, Ian | Home Robertson, John |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Howells, Geraint |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Hoyle, Douglas |
| Clay, Robert | Hughes, Dr Mark (Durham) |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Cook, Robin F (Livingston) | Hughes, Roy (Newport East) |
| Corbett, Robin | Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Hughes, Simon (Southwark) |
| Craigen, J M. | Janner, Hon Greville |
| Crowther, Stan | Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Hillh'd) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | John, Brynmor |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) | Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) |
| Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Deakms, Eric | Lamond, James |
| Dewar, Donald | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Dixon, Donald | Leighton, Ronald |
| Dobson, Frank | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Dormand, Jack | Lewis, Terence (Worsley) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Robertson, George |
| Loyden, Edward | Rogers, Allan |
| McCartney, Hugh | Ross, Ernest (Dundee W) |
| McGuire, Michael | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| McKay, Allen (Penistone) | Rowlands, Ted |
| McKelvey, William | Sheldon, Rt Hon R |
| MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Shields, Mrs Elizabeth |
| McNamara, Kevin | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| McTaggart, Robert | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| McWilliam, John | Short, Mrs R (Whampt'n NE) |
| Madden, Max | Silkin, Rt Hon J |
| Marek, Dr John | Skinner, Dennis |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Smith, C (Isl'ton S & F'bury) |
| Martin, Michael | Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'ds E) |
| Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Soley, Clive |
| Maxton, John | Spearing, Nigel |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Meacher, Michael | Stott, Roger |
| Michie, William | Strang, Gavin |
| Mikardo, Ian | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) |
| Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbrtde) | Thompson, J. (Wansbeck) |
| Morris, Rt Hon A (W'shawe) | Thorne, Stan (Preston) |
| Morris, Rt Hon J (Aberavon) | Tinn, James |
| Nellist, David | Torney, Tom |
| O'Brien, William | Wainwnght, R |
| O'Neill, Martin | Warden, Gareth (Gower) |
| Park, George | Wareing, Robert |
| Parry, Robert | White, James |
| Patchett, Terry | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Williams, Rt Hon A |
| Pendry, Tom | Winnick, David |
| Pike, Peter | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) | |
| Prescott, John | Tellers for the Ayes |
| Randall, Stuart | Mr Richard Livsey and |
| Richardson, Ms Jo | Mr James Wallace |
| NOES | |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Forth, Eric |
| Amess, David | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Ancram, Michael | Fox, Sir Marcus |
| Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) | Franks, Cecil |
| Batiste, Spencer | Fraser, Peter (Angus East) |
| Bendall, Vivian | Fry, Peter |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Galley, Roy |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Blackburn, John | Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian |
| Blaker Rt Hon Sir Peter | Gow, Ian |
| Body, Sir Richard | Gower, Sir Raymond |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Grant, Sir Anthony |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Gregory, Conal |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Griffiths, Sir Eldon |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) |
| Bright, Graham | Grist, Ian |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Ground, Patrick |
| Brown, M. (Bngg & Cl'thpes) | Grylls, Michael |
| Browne, John | Hamilton, Hon A (Epsom) |
| Bruinvels, Peter | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Budgen, Nick | Hannam, John |
| Burt, Alistair | Hargreaves, Kenneth |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Harris, David |
| Cash, William | Harvey, Robert |
| Chope, Christopher | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Churchill, W S | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael |
| Clark, Sir W (Croydon S) | Hawksley, Warren |
| Clarke Rt Hon K (Rushcliffe) | Hayes, J. |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Hayhoe, Rt Hon Barney |
| Cockeram, Eric | Hayward, Robert |
| Cope, John | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Heddle, John |
| Dicks, Terry | Henderson, Barry |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Hickmet, Richard |
| Dunn, Robert | Hicks, Robert |
| Durant, Tony | Hind, Kenneth |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Favell, Anthony | Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) |
| Forman, Nigel | Hordern, Sir Peter |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A) |
| Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) | Pollock, Alexander |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford) | Porter, Barry |
| Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N) | Portillo, Michael |
| Hubbard-Miles, Peter | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Irving, Charles | Powley, John |
| Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Price, Sir David |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Jones, Robert (Herts W) | Raffan, Keith |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Kershaw, Sir Anthony | Rathbone, Tim |
| Key, Robert | Renton, Tim |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Knight, Greg (Derby N) | Robinson, Mark (N'port W) |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston) | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Knowles, Michael | Rossi, Sir Hugh |
| Knox, David | Rost, Peter |
| Lamont, Rt Hon Norman | Rowe, Andrew |
| Lang, Ian | Ryder, Richard |
| Latham, Michael | Sackville, Hon Thomas |
| Lawler, Geoffrey | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb1) |
| Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Lee, John (Pendle) | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) | Shersby, Michael |
| Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd) | Silvester, Fred |
| Lightbown, David | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Lilley, Peter | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Lloyd, Sir Ian (Havant) | Soames, Hon Nicholas |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Speed, Keith |
| Lord, Michael | Speller, Tony |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Spencer, Derek |
| McCrindle, Robert | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| McCurley, Mrs Anna | Squire, Robin |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) | Stanley, Rt Hon John |
| Maclean, David John | Stern, Michael |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) | Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) | Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) |
| Madel, David | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Major, John | Taylor, John (Solihull) |
| Malins, Hurnfrey | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Malone, Gerald | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Marland, Paul | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) |
| Mather, Carol | Thurnham, Peter |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Mayhew, Sir Patrick | Tracey, Richard |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Trippier, David |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Moate, Roger | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Waddington, David |
| Moynihan, Hon C. | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Neale, Gerrard | Warren, Kenneth |
| Needham, Richard | Watson, John |
| Nelson, Anthony | Watts, John |
| Neubert, Michael | Wells, Bowen (Hertford) |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Whitney, Raymond |
| Norris, Steven | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Osborn, Sir John | Wolfson, Mark |
| Ottaway, Richard | Woodcock, Michael |
| Page, Sir John (Harrow W) | Yeo, Tim |
| Page, Richard (Herts SW) | |
| Patten, Christopher (Bath) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Mr. Francis Maude and |
| Pawsey, James | Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
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