Commons Sitting of 20 May 1985

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
  WALES

    Labour Statistics
    Mr. Barry Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many people are unemployed in Wales and in Clwyd; what were the figures for 1979; and by what percentage each of the totals has increased.
    The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Nicholas Edwards): On 11 April 1985 there were 180,031 unemployed claimants in Wales and 24,186 in Clwyd. In April 1979 the claimant-based figure for Wales was 78,383, an increase of 129·7 per cent. A comparable claimant-based figure for Clwyd is not available, but in April 1979 the number of registrants unemployed was 12,070.
    Mr. Jones: My luckless constituents at P.D. Cans of Deeside lost their jobs last month and are still shocked and angry. Why did that company fold up so speedily and mysteriously ? Is it perhaps a classic case of management error and over-extension of financial resources ? Did the company use Welsh Office grants to buy another company from receivership ? Does the Secretary of State agree that the closure of a factory with a 90-strong work force is just as important in human consequences as much bigger closures ?
    Mr. Edwards: The company received grants. I do not believe that the amount of grant that it received can have been critical in the decision on whether it went ahead with the acquisition of another company. But it was regrettable that that company failed. I find it hard to believe that the hon. Gentleman is criticising the fact that an application for selective financial assistance at an earlier stage was granted to the company after the application had gone to the Welsh Industrial Development Advisory Board.
    Mr. Raffan: Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the serious concern of the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) over unemployment is to be taken seriously, he will have to have Labour's policy document "Work for Wales" independently costed and tell us exactly how much his party will put up taxes to pay for it ?
    Mr. Edwards: I entirely agree. Any higher rates or taxes would be detrimental to jobs.
    Mr. Geraint Howells: How many nurses, doctors and front-line staff will be made redundant in west Wales due
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    to 90 beds being taken out of use at Llanelli, Carmarthen and Aberystwyth ? Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the position of the East Dyfed health authority, and give it the extra £1·5 million required to make sure that the services remain intact ?
    Mr. Edwards: There are more nurses, doctors and front-line staff in the Health Service than there were when the Government came into office. Considerable funds have been allocated to the health authorities in west Wales to deal with the problem of under-funding. Recent recalculation of Dyfed's requirements shows that further attention may have to be given to its particular under-funding problem. We are considering that matter at present.
    Mr. Foot: When will the Secretary of State announce a full expansion of the Welsh Development Agency programme, with the money and resources to make it possible, to deal with those appalling figures ?
    Mr. Edwards: The Welsh Development Agency has carried out a massive programme under the Government since May 1979. It has spent some £270 million on factory building and related activities. It has built over 200 advance factories in Clwyd alone. At the moment about 12·5 per cent. of its factory space is vacant. It is also carrying out a substantial programme to encourage investment, particularly by the private sector.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Keith Best to ask question No 2: this is an open question.
    Mr. Best: In that case, Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to ask it.

    Courtaulds (Plant Closure)
    Mr. Raffanasked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to complete his consideration of Delyn borough council's development strategy for Courtaulds' Greenfield plant following the announcement of the proposed closure of the plant.
    Mr. Harveyasked the Secretary of State for 'Wales if he will introduce further measures to alleviate the impact of job losses resulting from the closure of Courtaulds' yarn factory at Wrexham.
    Mr. Nicholas Edwards: My officials are discussing urgently with the local authorities, the company, the Manpower Services Commission and the WDA the contribution which each can make to tackling the situation. Those discussions will cover the Delyn borough council's development plan and the county council's action response.
    Mr. Raffan: Will my right hon. Friend seriously consider extending the Delyn enterprise zone to include the No. 1 site at Greenfields when that site is transferred to Delyn borough council ? Is he aware that the council will have great difficulty in attracting substantial private investment to develop that site without the financial advantages of an enterprise zone, particularly the 100 per cent. capital allowances for new buildings ?
    Mr. Edwards: We are having detailed discussions with all the authorities about their proposals. It would be wrong to anticipate the outcome of those discussions, especially as we are also still awaiting a full response from Courtaulds about the contribution that it can make.
    Mr. Harvey: I welcome my right hon. Friend's commitment to consultations, but will he also bear in mind that, if the closures go ahead, the extensive public funds invested in Courtaulds over the past few years should be clawed back ? Will he see that that is done ?
    Mr. Edwards: Clawback is always considered in such cases and I confirm that it will be on this occasion. However, I should tell the House that Courtaulds has agreed to second a senior executive and support staff to provide management expertise for the development of local business in the Delwyn area. I welcome that proposal, but it is, of course, only one of the many aspects of the problem that we have been discussing with Courtaulds. We shall continue to hold detailed discussions with the company.
    Mr. John Morris: In view of the reports that the Prime Minister has intervened personally with Sir Christopher Hogg about alternative employment, will the Secretary of State also intervene personally with the chairman of BP International in order to obtain a stay of execution for Llandarcy so that the work force may be given a decent period in which to work out alternative plans, instead of a mere month ?
    Mr. Edwards: I will certainly draw to the attention of the senior management of BP what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said, but, as I told the Welsh Grand Committee last week, BP has set a notable example to other companies, including Courtaulds, with regard to the contribution that can be made in such circumstances. BP has committed itself in a number of ways to help create future jobs. It should be congratulated on the initiatives that it has already announced.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I must draw the attention of the House to the fact that the question refers to Courtaulds Greenfield plant. I am afraid that I was confused by the names of Welsh towns.
    Mr. Gareth Wardell: What is the Secretary of State's reaction to the decision of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs to launch an inquiry into the job losses both at Courtaulds and at BP Llandarcy ?
    Mr. Edwards: I am always most interested to see the work of the Select Committee.
    Mr. Anderson: When the Secretary of State congratulates BP on its initiative—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. No, that will not do —Courtaulds.
    Mr. Barry Jones: May I remind the Secretary of State that over 13,000 people are unemployed in the Deeside travel-to-work area and that there is a male unemployment rate of nearly 20 per cent.? The prospects for Flint, Holywell, Bagillt and Greenfield are very grim. The male unemployment rate in Flint and Holywell may approach 30 per cent. before long.
    Will the right hon. Gentleman visit Mold and organise and chair a conference of county and borough leaders, together with the Welsh Development Agency and the Manpower Services Commission, with the objective of producing a rescue package.? What has the right hon. Gentleman done, with his Prime Minister, to see the chairman of Courtaulds in person in order to persuade him to retract these brutal decisions ?
    Mr. Edwards: As I have said before, I have seen the chairman of Courtaulds and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has corresponded with him. I have initiated with the local authorities discussions of the kind that the hon. Gentleman seems to want. What is required at present is not another meeting chaired by me, but a conclusion of the detailed discussions now in progress.
    I am sure that, at least, the hon. Gentleman will welcome the significant announcements affecting the area made by Sharp and Data Magnetic in particular since the Courtaulds announcement was made.

    Cynon Valley
    Mrs. Clwydasked the Secretary of State for Wales what new plans he has to deal with the unemployment problem in the Cynon Valley.
    Mr. Nicholas Edwards: Within the Government's overall economic strategy, I shall continue to pay special attention to the need to sustain and develop industrial and manufacturing investment in areas such as the Cynon Valley.
    Mrs. Clwyd: Is the Secretary of State aware that Cynon Valley now has the highest male unemployment in Wales ? Is he further aware that at least two pits in my constituency are in jeopardy and that, if they close, male unemployment will be pushed up to 50 per cent.? In view of that horrific possibility, does the right hon. Gentleman intend to bring alternative employment to my besieged constituency ?
    Mr. Edwards: I am aware of the possibility of further pit closures in the area and of the level of unemployment there. That is why I devoted a considerable part of my speech at last Wednesday's sitting of the Welsh Grand Committee to spelling out our commitment to the valleys of Wales, including the Cynon Valley. I am sorry to say that I do not think that the hon. Lady was able to be there to hear my speech. Perhaps she will find time to read it.
    Mr. Grist: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the most damaging action for the Cynon Valley, and any other part of the country, would be espousal of the Labour party's economic policy, which includes hostility to the European Community, control of pension funds, increasing Government borrowing, renationalisation and higher personal taxation ?
    Mr. Edwards: And the establishment of yet another talking shop to preside over the affairs of Wales.
    Mr. Ray Powell: Cynon Valley faces serious problems, as does the valley of Ogmore and Maesteg—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I shall do my best to call the hon. Gentleman on a later question on that part of Wales.

    Labour Statistics
    Mr. Wigleyasked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest figures for the number of unemployed people in Gwynedd; how this compares with the corresponding figures for 1979 and 1974; within the latest figures how many have been unemployed for over 12 months; and how many are under 25 years of age.
    Mr. Nicholas Edwards: On 11 April 1985 there were 14,494 unemployed claimants in Gwynedd. Comparable

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    figures for the same period in 1979 and 1974 are not available because of the move to claimant-based figures. In January 1985, 5,182 claimants had been unemployed for over a year and 5,713 claimants were aged under 25 years.
    Mr. Wigley: Is the Secretary of State aware that his refusal to give figures for 1979 and 1974 shows how the Government are cooking the books to avoid the consequences of their policies ? Is he further aware that his statement last Wednesday in the Welsh Grand Committee about an increase in the number of people in employment has no relevance for Gwynedd, as the Government's only policy for that county appears to be to build an east-running road to take young people out of the county as quickly as possible ? When will he have a commitment to Gwynedd such as he mentioned in connection with the valleys ?
    Mr. Edwards: I suppose that the hon. Gentleman and members of his party must be the only people in Wales who seriously believe that the building of a modern dual carriageway across north Wales to Gwynedd is bad for jobs and not good for economic prospects of the area. I hope he will proclaim that message to his electors, because I think that most of them will dismiss it as the rubbish that it is.
    Mr. Best: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the dualling of the A55 is the measure which is most likely to open up north-west Wales to greater employment prospects, just as the M4 has done for south Wales ? Does he further agree that construction work on highways is a good way in which to provide extra employment ? Will he ask our hon. Friend the Minister of State carefully to consider bypasses around the fine villages of the A5, as that would be an excellent means of producing greater employment ?
    Mr. Edwards: I shall do all of that. I cannot promise that we can get ahead immediately with all of the bypasses that my hon Friend requires. As he knows, we are conducting a massive road building programme for the general good of the area. I hope that he will draw the attention of local electors to the fact that Plaid Cymru believes that it should not go ahead.
    Mr. Barry Jones: This is the forgotten county. Why does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that, as long as Clwyd is wracked by high unemployment, it will be difficult to get major job projects into Gwynedd ? What will the right hon. Gentleman do to get work to the beleaguered community at Holyhead, where male unemployment is nearly 25 per cent. ? Why does he not acknowledge that Wales needs the expansion of the Welsh Development Agency budget ?
    Mr. Edwards: As Holyhead is a port on a main route to Ireland, I should have thought that it would be perfectly obvious that improvement of road communications to it is about the greatest single contribution that we can make.

    Juvenile Offenders
    Mr. Alex Carlileasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any proposals for increasing the funding of intermediate treatment schemes for juvenile offenders in Wales; and if he will make a statement.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wyn Roberts): member, Sir. The response to the
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    intensive intermediate treatment programme has not so far matched the funds we have set aside. The decrease in the 1985–86 provision compared with that for 1984–85 is merely a reflection of our estimate of likely take-up grant.
    Mr. Carlile: Is the Minister aware that the rising rate of some types of juvenile crime in Wales is causing real concern and that statistics show that detention centres, whether by short, sharp shock or otherwise, are failing to prevent youngsters from committing crime ? Is it not high time that the Government responded to the initiative of the intermediate treatment programme and provided proper funding for a real and successful alternative to custody, through intermediate treatment ?
    Mr. Roberts: The Government are in favour of non-custodial treatment, as the hon. and learned Gentleman knows. To make the position absolutely clear, I must say that although we have allocated £724,000 since 1983–84 for this particular programme, only £190,000 has so far been taken up in Wales. Nevertheless, two applications worth £206,000 are being considered and we shall announce the result of our consideration shortly.
    Mr. Best: Is my hon. Friend aware that last Saturday I visited Holyhead mountain and the scheme run by the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders in the community programme, and saw the work that is being done there ? Will he welcome the addition of 100,000 new places to the community programme, as it is an excellent way of helping ex-offenders to be rehabilitated back into society and to find work, and of finding work for the long-term unemployed in general ?
    Mr. Roberts: I welcome the developments to which my hon. Friend referred. It is not simply the Government who are active in this area through their intermediate treatment programme and urban programme, but local authorities. I am glad that Welsh local authorities have forecast that by 1984–85 expenditure will rise to £1 million compared with £489,000, which was committed in 1982–83.
    Mr. Gareth Wardell: Will the Minister request local education authorities to attach community policemen to all schools so that the relationship between schoolchildren and the police can be improved ? That could also form part of the drug abuse prevention programme.
    Mr. Roberts: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are worried about drug abuse, and a campaign is being mounted by the health and social services departments. Regarding his point about the police and schools. on both the education and police sides a great deal is being done to prevent crime.

    Building Land
    Sir Raymond Gowerasked the Secretary of State for Wales what conclusions he has reached in relation to the recently published studies by the Land Authority for Wales on the availability of building land in South Glamorgan and in West Glamorgan; and what steps he now intends to take.
    The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mr. John Stradling Thomas): . The publication of the two studies marks a successful start for the new system of housing land availability assessments introduced in the Welsh Office

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    circular 47/84. My officials are now studying the two documents and will be discussing the findings with the Land Authority for Wales.
    Sir Raymond Gower: As the studies of the Land Authority for Wales seem to substantiate the complaints of the House-Builders Federation and other builders' organisations, does my hon. Friend consider that those complaints of shortages of available building land are without foundation, or with considerable foundation ?
    Mr. Stradling Thomas: The land availability studies are a great step forward in getting the balance right. The land authority conducts them in conjunction with the local authorities and builders. I am sure that a better balance can be achieved by that method.
    Mr. Anderson: Will the Minister be wary of special pleading in this area in favour of building on green field sites ? Will he try to ensure that wherever practicable existing sites in older industrial areas are built on ?
    Mr. Stradling Thomas: There is no doubt about our commitment in that respect. We wish to conserve. We have a good example in the redevelopment of south Cardiff, and I pay tribute to the redevelopment that is taking place in Swansea.

    Labour Statistics
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the present level of unemployment in Newport, Gwent at the latest available date; and how this compares with the figure in May 1979.
    Mr. Nicholas Edwards: On 11 April 1985 the number of unemployed claimants in the Newport travel-to-work area was 12,838. Comparable figures for May 1979 are not available because of changes to travel-to-work area boundaries and the move to claimant-based figures.
    Mr. Hughes: Bearing in mind those horrific figures, will the Secretary of State say whether there is any truth in the reports this week that the Secretary of State for Transport proposes to increase tolls on the Severn bridge by 150 per cent.? Would that not be another serious blow to the economy of Wales, and would it not be especially riduculous, since the bridge is still afflicted by all manner of delays and restrictions ?
    Mr. Edwards: The hon. Gentleman is aware that there has just been a public inquiry and that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will announce his decision soon. It is ludicrous to suggest that the proposals put to that public inquiry would have the economic effect that has just been described. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman shares my view about the importance of the crossing, and does not agree with Plaid Cymru, which believes that it is yet another communication in Wales that should be destroyed in order to isolate the Welsh people.
    Sir Anthony Meyer: Is it yet possible to estimate the number of jobs that were lost, or potential jobs that were forfeited, as a result of the miners' strike, which was so enthusiastically supported by the hon. Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) ?
    Mr. Edwards: I can give no estimate. It clearly caused great damage to the Welsh economy. It cost the British Steel Corporation a large sum of money and, therefore, held up decisions on the investment for which the hon.
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    Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) keeps asking. In economic terms, there is no comparison between a small increase in the toll charge for the Severn bridge, which has not been increased since 1979, and the sort of damage encouraged by the hon. Gentleman during the miners' strike.
    Mr. Barry Jones: The Severn crossing is Wales's most important industrial artery. Has the Secretary of State fought against the proposed increase in tolls ?
    Mr. Edwards: I have not fought the policy. A reasonable increase in tolls for the first time since 1979 is a sensible proposal. I am pressing on—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Barry Jones: More costs.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We often hear things that we do not like in this place.
    Mr. Edwards: This is a Government proposal, and I do not apologise for it in any way. I am ensuring that my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Department of Transport, with me, press on speedily with the study into a possible second crossing and improvements in road communications generally in Wales, which remain a high priority.
    Sir Raymond Gower: Although, as my hon. Friend must recognise, no one in Wales will be pleased if there is any increase in tolls, does he agree that it is much more important to complete the feasibility study quickly and to provide an adequate crossing to ensure good communica-tions across the Severn ?
    Mr. Edwards: I assure my hon. Friend that the consultants are getting on well with the feasibility study. They have announced the first stage, and are now investigating the detailed options. It is absurd to suggest that the increases proposed for charges on the Severn bridge will have a significant effect on transport costs along the M4.

    House Repair Grants
    Mr. Gristasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will provide details of house repair grants paid in (a) the city of Cardiff, and (b) Wales for the financial years 1974 to 1979 and 1979 to 1985, respectively.
    Mr. Wyn Roberts: Between 1974–75 and 1978–79, expenditure on housing grants of all types in Cardiff totalled £2·7 million. For the period between 1979–80 and 1984–85 the figure was £23·5 million. For Wales, the equivalent figures were £58 million and £283 million. Information about repair grants alone is not held centrally in the form requested by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Grist: Does my hon. Friend agree that those figures improved staggeringly under the Conservative Government as compared with the Labour Government ? Does he further agree that those sums, with council house sales, represent a massive transfer of public funds into the hands of the lower economic groups in society ?
    Mr. Wyn Roberts: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We as a Government have a marvellous housing record. I can highlight the difference, in terms of expenditure, between the Government and the Opposition. During the last three years, total local authority spending under this Government was about 60 per cent. more than it was

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    during the last three years of the Labour Government. As my hon. Friend has said, the tremendous transfer that council house sales involve is confirmation that we are satisfying the inherent desire of the Welsh electorate to own their own homes.
    Mr. Anderson: Will the Minister confirm that the purpose of the new Green Paper is to reduce public expenditure on housing by three quarters ? Given the relative poverty of Wales and the quality of its housing stock, would he not say that Wales should be exempted from the suggestions contained in the Green Paper ?
    Mr. Wyn Roberts: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's interpretation of the Green Paper. It does not deal with the amount of housing finance that will be available in future. As I made clear, the purpose of the Green Paper is to target rather better the grant system so that more grants are made available for houses that are in need of improvement and for people who are in need. The object of the loan system is to enable people to improve their homes to a higher standard and to enable them to borrow according to the Green Paper system—that is, from authorities rather than from building societies if they are unable to command credit from the building societies or the banks.
    Mr. Raffan: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Opposition are plagiarising not only the council house sales policy of the Conservative part but also our policy on home improvement grants ? Has my hon. Friend read the Opposition's latest policy document in which they pledge themselves to reverse their policy of running down improvement grants, a policy which they so successfully implemented when they were last in office ?
    Mr. Wyn Roberts: The Opposition can learn a great deal from our example. To revert to the key question which sparked off this discussion, I highlight the fact that in 1978 about 296 grants were given in Cardiff. This has to be compared with 1984, when about 2,745 grants were given in Cardiff. As for the comparative figures for Wales, 5,931 grants were made in 1978, whereas grants totalled 29,978 in 1984. Those figures speak for themselves.
    Mr. Roy Hughes: Does the Minister appreciate that his means-tested loan proposals, which are outlined in the Green Paper, are not regarded as a serious attempt to tackle the deteriorating standard of housing in Wales ? It is yet another attempt to take Wales back to the 1930s. If an imaginative scheme is not produced shortly, the worst fears of the chief officers group will be realised.
    Mr. Wyn Roberts: I challenge the hon. Gentleman to produce a more imaginative scheme than is put forward in the Green Paper. It provides a method to deal with both dereliction and the need for improvement in Wales. As the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends know, the dereliction and the need for improvement existed long before the Government came to office. It is this Government who have taken this initiative over renovation.

    Smith Houses (Defects)
    Mr. Gwilym Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the incidence and nature of defects in former council houses of the Smith type in Wales.
    Mr. Wyn Roberts: There are about 70 Smith houses in private ownership in Wales. All are in Cardiff. It has been known since 1948 that Smith houses could be subject to minor cracking. The Building Research Establishment recommended periodic inspection, but said that there was generally no need for urgent action so long as good structural condition was maintained.
    Mr. Jones: May I quote one phrase from a letter from my constituent, Mr. Evans of Gabalfa, the owner of an affected home ? He said:
    "Smith houses are now not mortgageable and will remain so until appropriate action is taken."
    Will my hon. Friend give urgent and positive consideration to the request of Cardiff city council for a local dispensation under section 12 of the Housing Defects Act 1984, so that Smith houses in Cardiff can be dealt with under that Act ?
    Mr. Roberts: In a letter dated 14 May I told my hon. Friend how Cardiff city coucil could seek a designation under section 12. It has to give 28 days' notice that it proposes such a designation and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has two months in which to object.
    Mrs. Clwyd: If the Government's record on housing is so good, can the Minister explain why half the houses in my constituency are unfit for human habitation ?
    Mr. Roberts: Yes. It is because no action was taken before this Government came into office. The hon. Lady will know that, as a result of our initiative, there were about 141,000 applications for improvement grants in Wales. We know only too well that the problem existed long before we came into office in 1979.
    Several Hon. Members rose —
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sure that the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) was referring to Smith houses. I call Mr. Best and I hope that he will refer to Smith houses.
    Mr. Best: I acknowledge that there are difficulties about the sale of Smith houses, but will my hon. Friend welcome the somewhat ungainly, but well-practised, posture of the Labour party in standing on its head over the sale of council houses ? Does he think that there is any possibility that the Labour party may yet become a party that champions the individual instead of always championing local authorities ?
    Mr. Roberts: There is always hope for Labour Members, but I understand my hon. Friend's despairing feeling.

    Job Creation
    Dr. Marekasked the Secretary of State for Wales what new measures he proposes to take as a result of the continuing rise in unemployment in Wales.
    Mr. Nicholas Edwards: Our policies for promoting industrial investment are creating significant numbers of new jobs in Wales. For example, as I reported to the Welsh Grand Committee last week, over the previous 12 months, investment decisions have been announced for Wrexham which are likely to produce some 1,500 new jobs, including the Sharp project, which was announced after the news of the Courtaulds closure.
    Dr. Marek: I am sure that the Secretary of State will agree that unemployment keeps rising. In view of the

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    staggering job losses that Wales has had to endure in the past few weeks and the fact that local authorities have great difficulty in attracting industries to Wales and in partaking in industrial development, will the right hon. Gentleman consider seriously whether he can disregard, for target expenditure purposes, money spent by local authorities for bona fide industrial development ?
    Mr. Edwards: I note what the hon. Gentleman says about the role of local authorities. They have an important role, though he was wrong to claim that the Sharp investment was the result of an initiative by his local council, which visited Japan after I discussed the subject in October last year. I cannot hold out any prospect of a special exemption, but local authorities have a good deal of scope for investing in the new industrial estates and new building as part of their general ordering of priorities.
    Mr. Foot: As the Secretary of State and his ministerial colleagues are always boasting about the housing programme, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many building workers in Wales are unemployed ?
    Mr. Edwards: If the hon. Gentleman will put down a question on that subject, I will answer it. I does not arise directly from the question on the Order Paper.
    Sir Raymond Gower: Is it not a fact that the record of the Welsh Development Agency in this area has been extremely good ? Will my right hon. Friend do all that he can to assist the agency and similar bodies ?
    Mr. Edwards: As I have already pointed out, the agency has carried out a massive factory building programme. Its emphasis is now switching to purpose-built factories, which are more and more in demand, rather than advance factories, and to stimulating private sector investment. But yes, there are a large number of vacant WDA factories and our task is to get them fully occupied.
    Mr. Ray Powell: Will the Secretary of State admit that his policies are creating more and more unemployment in Wales ? Does he not realise that there are now 250,000 people out of work in Wales ? Does he know that today the House received a deputation from St. John's colliery in Maesteg, where 830 jobs may be lost ? We are already suffering from a male unemployment rate of 25 per cent. How can those people find jobs, given the policies that the Secretary of State is pursuing ? Last weekend my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) presented a document on jobs and industry to the Wales TUC meeting in Llandudno. The right hon. Gentleman would be wise to read it and to take a leaf out of my hon. Friend's book.
    Mr. Edwards: The hon. Gentleman is wrong, because there are not 250,000 people unemployed. Thankfully, I can say that the figure is 180,031. However, unemployment is, of course, a serious problem and that is why we are making so much effort to encourage new investment. I am glad to say that a very considerable part of that new investment is going to the Bridgend area and that the hon. Gentleman's constituents are benefiting from it.
    Mr. Raffan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the WDA's current building resources are fully committed ? Will he seriously consider allocating extra funds so that it can erect more purpose-built factories and so that it can implement the plan to provide six business counsellors in different parts of the Principality ?
    Mr. Edwards: I have already announced that we will carefully consider the WDA's plans in the light of the Courtaulds closure. However, my hon. Friend will know that 58 units totalling 321,000 sq ft are vacant and available for letting in WDA factories in the county, and that its advance factory programme for 1985–86 includes several factory projects in the county.
    Mr. Alex Carlile: If the Secretary of State believes so strongly — as he said earlier — that the A55 road improvements will have the effect of reducing unemployment in north and north-west Wales, when will he announce a north-south road route in Wales as well as an east-west route through central Wales, as that would presumably have a significant effect on reducing unemployment throughout the Principality ?
    Mr. Edwards: The hon. and learned Gentleman must use the route frequently, and he will agree that the new road link across to Telford represents a notable improvement in the links with the motorway network. As he knows, there are further plans to link mid-Wales into that motorway network. That must have a higher priority than the north-south road.
    Mr. Rowlands: When the Secretary of State last attended the Welsh Grand Committee he said that several thousand jobs would be lost in the mining industry in the next year or two. Will he tell us what the figure is ? After all, there are only about 20,000 jobs left in the industry. Does that anonymous and invisible body, NCB (Enterprise) Ltd. intend to create several thousand jobs as well during the same time scale ? I should like to know what progress that organisation is making in creating jobs in our mining community.
    Mr. Edwards: The hon. Gentleman knows that that organisation has already started work. I understand that one new industrial concern has already been committed as a result of its operations in Blaenau Gwent, and that a significant number of first applications under the scheme have been made in Wales. Instead of criticising such a welcome initiative, I should have thought the hon. Gentleman would be praising it and would be glad that it has been established.
    Mr. Wigley: For several years the M4 has run through Glamorgan, yet the adjacent valleys suffer from high and increasing unemployment. Furthermore, the A55 has been modernised in many parts of Clywd, yet that area too suffers from chronic unemployment. What possible basis can there be, therefore, for assuming that the A55 alone will solve the unemployment problems of Gwynedd ? Is it not a fact that this policy is the only one that the right hon. Gentleman has, and that he is using it to camouflage his lack of a solution to the problem of unemployment ?
    Mr. Edwards: I am not for a moment suggesting that that road is the only factor in encouraging industrial development. However, if the hon. Gentleman took the trouble to make the slightest study of what has happened along the M4 he would know that many new, modern, high-tech industries are establishing themselves along that link. Everyone who has looked at the problem seriously recognises that the construction of modern roads can make a major contribution. The hon. Gentleman is apparently the only person to think otherwise.
    Mr. Best: Will my right hon. Friend mention to the Chancellor of the Exchequer two further measures which

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    would help to stimulate employment in Wales ? The first is to give greater access to finance to the smallest of businesses, and the second is to build on the welcome cut made in the Budget of the cost of employing people in unemployment black spots such as Holyhead.
    Mr. Edwards: I shall draw those remarks to my right hon. Friend's attention. I am sure that my hon. Friend will welcome the measures announced in the Budget, although we have not yet seen the benefit of them. I share my hon. Friend's view.
    Mr. Anderson: Earlier, the Secretary of State commended BP for its local employment initiatives in the Llandarcy area. Will he consider those initiatives in the context of the record quarterly profit figures announced last week by BP ? Does he agree that those profits were made at the expense of jobs in the area ? Does he further agree that the sums involved at Llandarcy are peanuts and an insult to the local community ?
    Mr. Edwards: A successful company that makes profits does not do so at the expense of jobs. If companies are to continue to provide jobs they must succeed in making profits, because that permits investment. The measures already announced by BP are welcome. They are exceptional and I hope that Courtaulds and other companies will follow its example.
    Mr. Barry Jones: The Courtaulds and BP closures and the colliery redundancies are a grave development for the Welsh economy. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that it was foolish of him to agree to cuts in regional aid for Wales ? Will he reconsider that policy ? Does he recognise that his policies are now in ruins and that he should come to the House with plans to help the Welsh economy ?
    Mr. Edwards: Our changes in regional policy concentrate help where it is most needed. The hon. Gentleman must explain how his policy document, which calls for greater selectivity and yet makes the whole of Wales a development area, can be reconciled with the needs of other areas in England and how it can avoid severe knock-on consequences which will blow his policies out of the water.

    Welsh Development Agency (Building Programme)
    Mr. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many new factory units and how many square feet of factory space have been built by the Welsh Development Agency in the past five years.
    Mr. Nicholas Edwards: Between April 1980 and March 1985 inclusive the Welsh Development Agency completed 928 advance factory units, 11 bespoke factory units and 45 bespoke factory extensions, totalling over 6·4 million sq ft.
    Mr. Knox: Does my right hon. Friend think that sufficient factory units have been built to meet future demand ?
    Mr. Edwards: A delicate balance has to be found between the need to build factories in special areas where the private sector might not be involved, and the need not to destroy the attractions of building factories for the private sector. The current vacancy rate is about 121/2 per cent., which is not unreasonable at this stage in the
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    programme. The Welsh Development Agency, sensibly, is concentrating on priority areas and on the need for purpose-built factories to meet the needs of particular companies.

    Labour Statistics
    Sir Anthony Meyerasked the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of the registered labour force in Wales were employed in coal mining, iron and steel manufacture and textiles in 1975 and in the latest year for which figures are available.
    Mr. Nicholas Edwards: In September 981 the percentages of the civilian working population employed in coal mining, iron and steel manufacture and textiles were 2·7 per cent., 2·5 per cent. and 0·7 per cent. respectively. The corresponding figures for 1975 were 3·4 per cent., 6·2 per cent. and 1·3 per cent. Up-to-date figures from the 1984 census of employment will be published in the November Employment Gazette.
    Sir Anthony Meyer: Does my right hon? Friend accept that, futile though it would be for the Government to attempt to arrest the process of conversion from traditional to more modern industries, it would be wrong for them to leave the provision of replacement jobs in the new technologies solely to market forces ?
    Mr. Edwards: No one can say, after hearing the figures for expenditure by the WDA, or the figures that I have given to the House frequently on selective financial assistance, that we have left such matters solely to market forces. Massive Government expenditure has taken place in Wales on building new roads, improving infrastructure and attracting inward investment. I agree that a proper balance must be struck. However, we must be careful that Government expenditure is not so high that it increases taxes and the burdens on the private sector, which creates the wealth.

    Job Creation
    Mr. Geraint Howellsasked the Secretary of State for Wales what specific plans he now has to reduce unemployment in the county of Dyfed, and in Ceredigion and Pembroke, North in particular; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Nicholas Edwards: Prospects for the areas concerned will benefit from the continuing work of the Government and the statutory agencies in infrastructure development, from regional industrial assistance and from aid from European Community sources.
    Mr. Howells: I am sure that the Secretary of State is well aware that the number of people unemployed in the Teifi Valley is the highest in percentage terms for many years. As so many people are unemployed in the Teifi Valley catchment area, will the right hon. Gentleman consider including north Pembroke down to Fishguard in the mid-Wales development area ?
    Mr. Edwards: On a number of occasions we have considered the extension of the mid-Wales development area — established under my predecessor — but have concluded that it would not be of benefit. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the various agencies are working together on the development of the Teifi Valley initative, which was launched last year, and work is well advanced

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    on the provision of a business centre at Newcastle Emlyn that will involve counselling in business training. Of course, Mid-Wales Development will continue to attach priority to the needs of that area.

  THE ARTS

    Welsh Language
    Mr. Alex Carlileasked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if the Minister for the Arts will increase the allocation in the Arts budget for Welsh language activities.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. William Waldegrave): The Welsh Arts Council and not my right hon. and noble Friend determines the distribution of the grant it receives from the Arts Council of Great Britain. That grant was increased to £7·14 million in 1985–86, an increase of 3·2 per cent. over the 1984–85 figure.
    Mr. Carlile: Does the Under-Secretary not realise that an increase of just over 3 per cent. is wretchedly mean ? Is he aware that the consequence is that many groups and companies wishing to perform plays in the Welsh language are now having to cut their programmes, which is causing real, widespread and justified resentment throughout Wales ?
    Mr. Waldegrave: I know that the figure is not as high as many people would like. However, I also know that the public funding of the arts should be a matter of seeking priorities and giving the money to the most valuable activities, and there is no escaping that.
    Mr. Best: Does my hon. Friend realise that a large number of monoglot English-speaking people living in Wales wish to learn the Welsh language ? Is not one of the most attractive and encouraging ways of doing that by seeing the arts performed in the Welsh language ?
    Mr. Waldegrave: Primarily the Welsh Office budget supports the Welsh language qua Welsh language, and does so generously. The principle behind support for the arts has always been that they should not be supported simply because they are in Welsh, but because they are of outstanding quality. I think that there has always been a great deal to be subsidised on that basis.
    Mr. Wigley: Does the Minister accept that, with inflation running at 5 or 6 per cent., an increase of only 3 per cent. means a reduction in real support for Welsh language productions ? Does he further accept that there is a universal feeling on both sides of the House that such productions are worth supporting ? Will he inquire whether more funds can be made available for that purpose ?
    Mr. Waldegrave: I shall report what the hon. Gentleman has said to my right hon. and noble Friend. There is no question but that arts funding is tight. At a time when all programmes are under pressure, I think that my right hon. and noble Friend has secured a reasonable settlement this year.

    Tobacco Sponsorship
    Mr. Proctorasked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what
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    representations the Minister for the Arts has received from tobacco product manufacturers about tobacco sponsorship of the arts; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Waldegrave: None, Sir.
    Mr. Proctor: Can my hon. Friend confirm that he welcomes sponsorship for the arts from tobacco product manufacturers ?
    Mr. Waldegrave: The Government's decision is that the arts are entirely free to seek sponsorship from wherever they can find it. It is very welcome if public or other companies wish to support the arts, and much valuable activity is supported in that way.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: Is not this begging-bowl approach to sponsoring the arts based on this Government's almost malicious contempt for culture ? Is that not to be rejected by the British people ? Why do the Government not rescind some of the tax reductions that they have given in capital transfer and capital gains tax during the past few years and channel that money into supporting the arts, thereby dealing with the contempt and disrespect for the Government felt by many people who perform and support the arts ?
    Mr. Waldegrave: I thought that the hon. Gentleman, who is a fair man, was having some difficulty in keeping a straight face as he asked that supplementary question. Labour Members often criticise the Government for not cutting taxes enough, though when it suits them they criticise us in the opposite direction. There is no contempt for culture on the part of the Government, and real term support for the arts has increased since 1979.
    Mr. Buchan: I suggest that there is a great deal of contempt for culture when the Minister can say that it does not matter which bodies provide money for the arts so long as money comes forward. Is it not a fact that, were it not for the cuts that the Government are imposing on the arts, and the absence of proper public funding, we should not require this additional fl million or so from cigarette and tobacco advertising ? Is it not also a fact that total public expenditure on the arts, compared with the amount coming to the arts from tobacco advertising, is as 100,000 to one ? An increase of only one hundred thousandth in public expenditure would enable us to do without such meretricious advertising.
    Mr. Waldegrave: The hon. Gentleman is taking a different position from that which he normally takes on this issue, because we are normally agreed that the search for additional sources of funds for the arts — from businesses and anywhere—represents a useful addition to the pluralistic source of funds. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that his party would make it illegal for tobacco companies or companies with interests in tobacco—which covers a wide range of companies—to support the arts, or to support other things, he should say so.

    Foreign Currency Earnings
    Mr. Nicholas Bakerasked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if he will estimate the amount of foreign currency earned by the performing arts both from tours abroad and from performances within the United Kingdom during the last financial year.
    Mr. Waldegrave: The information is not available. However, my right hon. and noble Friend is commission-ing a study of the economic impact of the arts by the Policy Studies Institute, which should provide a relevant assessment.
    Mr. BakerDoes my hon. Friend accept that the foreign currency earnings of such tours are, in the opinion of everyone connected with the arts, very substantial indeed ? Will he do everything possible to encourage the benefits for the nation, which are both financial and cultural, from tours of the performing arts ?
    Mr. Waldegrave: Yes, and I can confirm that the great majority of such tours turn out in the end to be money-spinners as well as important cultural activities, which is their fundamental purpose. The study, which is being jointly funded with the Gulbenkian foundation, is aimed at providing some measurement of the scale of the money involved, and that will be useful.
    Mr. Robert Sheldon: We look forward to seeing the results of the study. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is important to bear in mind the number of tourists who come to this country — as anybody can see when queueing at box offices—to enjoy our cultural heritage ? It is vital for us to retain and advance that.
    Mr. Waldegrave: I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman, though, as I have sometimes made myself unpopular in the House by saying, I do not believe that we should try to defend the arts primarily as a source of tourism. The same applies to any economic activity. Tourists come to see the commercial theatre just as much as the subsidised theatre. Down that route lies an argument for the withdrawal of subsidy from many minority, specialist and fringe artistic activities.

    Acceptances in Lieu of Tax
    Mr. Fauldsasked the Parliamentary-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts whether it is policy of the Minister for the Arts to discourage tax debtors from making applications in excess of an overall token figure covering annual discharges in kind of capital transfer tax liabilities which had previously been established administratively, for the statutory provision to be brought into effect whereby pre-eminent objects may be accepted in satisfaction of such tax liabilities; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Waldegrave: There has been no recent change, but, as my right hon. and noble Friend said recently in
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    another place, the Government are looking again at the arrangements whereby the cost of acceptances in lieu of tax is met from the Votes of our respective Departments.
    Mr. Faulds: Can the hon. Gentleman clarify the reason for so prolonged a delay ? Has his noble Friend consulted the Museums and Galleries Commission, which adminis-ters the scheme ? If not, can the Under-Secretary give an explanation for that unhappy omission ?
    Mr. Waldegrave: I will check and write to the hon. Gentleman as to exactly who has been consulted. I hope that there will not be a long delay. I believe that the studies should be completed within the next month or two. It is an important matter to get right.
    Mr. Cormack: Is my hon. Friend aware that his last remarks are not reassuring, because a month or two can soon become three or four ? Is he aware that it is vital that the pledge that our noble Friend gave in another place should be redeemed at the earliest possible opportunity ? Does my hon. Friend agree that as our noble Friend is also a Treasury Minister, he should be in a happy position to resolve this quite difficult problem ?
    Mr. Waldegrave: I note the remarks of my hon. Friend, who, I am sure, will wish to pay tribute to the Government for again this year finding a large sum, £25 million, for the rescue of the three great houses and for finding additional funds the year before for the support of Calke. In other words, I am sure that as well as pressing my noble Friend, he will want to give credit where credit is due.
    Mr. Buchan: Surely much of the tax arrangement is purely notional and has the effect of restricting the possibility of works of art passing into public hands. The time has come to stop this nonsense. The traffic in art is becoming positively obscene. Is the Minister aware that the National gallery could afford only about one third of the canvas area of the last Turner to be sold because of the level of its annual grant ? One way forward, even for this Government, would be to remove the ceiling and to alter the restrictions.
    Mr. Waldegrave: It is a new degradation of language to apply obscenity, which is often misused, to trade in works of art. We are not talking about notional money. The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) argued that the cut in taxes was a disgrace. If taxes are cut by the giving of tax allowances, it is real money and not notional money that is not taken in tax.

Agriculture Council
3.30 pm
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Michael Jopling): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the Council of Agriculture Ministers meeting in Brussels on 13 to 16 May 1985. My hon. Friend the Minister of State and I represented the United Kingdom.
The meeting was devoted entirely to negotiations on the 1985–86 agricultural prices, and an agreement was reached last Thursday covering all commodities other than cereals and rapeseed.
Decisions on prices were overdue and, while decisions on all commodities would have been preferable, I was not prepared to give in to German insistence that there should be no meaningful reduction in prices for cereals.
They felt so strongly on this issue that their Minister made it clear, using the words of the Luxembourg compromise, that very important interests were involved for his country and that the Germans were not prepared to agree to a vote. This represented a significant change in the attitude of the Federal Government towards the use of the Luxembourg compromise.
Turing to the decisions which were taken, the co-responsibility levy for milk was reduced by 1 per cent., backdated to the beginning of April. This is linked to the reduction of 1 per cent. in the national quotas. With the 1·5 per cent. increase in the support price for milk, this means an improvement of 2·5 per cent. in the level of support for milk. Now that these decisions have been made, we can go ahead and notify producers of their individual quotas for 1985–86. Letters to producers will start to be sent out later this week.
The Council agreed that supplementary levy will be collected annually at the end of the milk year. This avoids problems over quarterly or half-yearly payments which may bear unfairly on producers if they change their seasonal pattern of production.
The Council did not agree to the Irish Government demand for a permanent addition of 58,000 tonnes in their quota allocation on account of a statistical error in the Irish production figures on which the Council based its decisions last year. An adjustment was made only for 1984–85 and 1985–86.
As I foreshadowed in my statement on the implementation of the report of the Committee on Medical Aspects of Food Policy, I accepted that the special United Kingdom butter subsidy should be discontinued. Taken together with other adjustments affecting butter, this will mean over time a small increase in butter prices of about 1p per 250g pack.
I secured the continuation of the beef variable premium scheme in an unchanged form, against very strong opposition from most other member states. This will be welcome to producers and consumers alike, and will reduce the quantity of United Kingdom beef going into intervention. The guide price for beef will remain unchanged, but United Kingdom producers will benefit —by approximately 1 per cent. —from an increase in the intervention prices under the second stage of the carcase classification grid which was agreed last year.
For sheepmeat, there will be no price change this year. But, for the next year, when the marketing year will start on 6 January, the basic price will increase by 1 per cent.
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I successfully resisted pressure from the Commission and some member states for changes in the regime which would have been damaging to our interests, including a proposal to impose a ceiling on variable premium and a related bar to the recovery through the ewe premium of any money forgone. I resisted also pressure for an immediate end to the special export certification arrangements which facilitate the export of ewes from Great Britain. Instead, there will be further discussions about these arrangements over the coming months. The Commission has undertaken to bring forward proposals to enable annual premium to be paid from next year on certain sheep in especially disadvantaged mountainous areas which cannot be tupped until their third season.
I secured agreement on the modification which the farmers' unions and the trade had sought to the sheepmeat seasonal scale which will promote more orderly marketing. I secured also an extension until the end of 1987 of the exemption from clawback for our sheepmeat exports to third countries, which should enable our exporters to develop that trade with more certainty.
Agreement was reached on measures that should bring about a better balance for Mediterranean products and establish a greater control over the regimes in these sectors. In particular, significant price reductions were agreed for tomatoes, citrus fruits and some varieties of tobacco.
Overall, the changes which were agreed will have a negligible effect on food prices in our shops.
Throughout the negotiations, I have attached great importance to the Council continuing with the task, which was started last year, of bringing greater realism into the common agricultural policy within the budgetary constraints laid down. The Commission stated clearly that it would ensure that the measures agreed, with the decisions yet to be reached on cereals and rapeseed, will be financed within the budget provision recently approved for 1985 by the Budget Council. The cost of the compromise package under discussion, of which this settlement forms part, was within the financial guideline for agriculture in 1986.
The Council will meet again on 11 June to continue its discussions on cereals and oilseed rape.
This package, agreed last Thursday, meets our objectives. In particular, I was determined to resist measures which would discriminate against British interests, and that we have done. I consider it a good agreement for the United Kingdom and for the Community as a whole. I commend it to the House.
Mr. Brynmor John: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that statement. Although it contains some good points, overall this year's endless round of meetings is probably one of the most disastrous ever for the Council of Ministers. I hope that we shall have a debate on it in the near future.
If the Secretary of State was reflecting the unanimous views of those hon. Members who participated in the recent debate on agriculture and price proposals, he must be disappointed. Because the right hon. Gentleman is the only Minister of the Council who comes before us, it is incumbent upon us to criticise the Council through him. To say that agreement has been reached when, in fact, for the first time the main component in the agreement has been removed, is like "Hamlet" without the prince.

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Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the success or failure of these talks and the sincerity of professions to reform CAP will always depend upon the cereal settlement ? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, judged by this criterion, this meeting has been an abysmal betrayal of the people who live in the EC and who have put their faith in the Council's making this type of reform ?
Is it true that over-production of fruit and vegetables was so great that dumping or destruction caused the Community to pay out hundreds of millions of pounds ? Would this not have justified a far larger cut in the threshold of these products ? Is it true that in this and other respects the rest of the Council agreed lower cuts than would have been justified in order to help secure German agreement to cereal cuts ? Is it not true that Germany has pocketed all the benefits of these concessions without agreeing any cereal trade-off ? What will happen on 11 June. now that the German Government have refused to allow any more than a derisory 0·9 per cent. cut in cereal prices ? What will happen now that the Commission, by reaching partial agreement, has capitulated in advance to German demands ?
May I welcome very much the retention of the beef variable premium ? The Glasgow Herald —I do not know whether it is right or wrong—reports the right hon. Gentleman as saying that he has received
"a verbal assurance that it can be extended".
How bankable is that assurance ? Many of us in the House are getting pretty sick of the annual blackmail on the beef variable premium. Similarly, we also welcome the measures on sheep, including the sheep variable premium. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what his justification is for a rising butter price when there are still enormous surpluses of unwanted butter ?
I return to cereals. Has not the talk of budget discipline, which the right hon. Gentleman and others have carried on over the years, and of reforming the common agricultural policy, been shown, in the light of the fiasco that I have described, to be totally insincere ? Is it not a fact that the EC is producing far too much in the form of cereals and that even the Commission's miserable 3·6 per cent. proposed reduction, which was much lower than the Government's proposal, has been halved again during the negotiations ? What, therefore, will be the future of cereal production ? In my view, there will be no reduction of the amount of cereals. Have the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues made an assessment, on the 1·8 per cent. proposal, of the amount by which cereal production will fall ? Otherwise, we shall have to take it that we shall continue to add to the millions of tonnes of unwanted and unused cereals in store.
What about the cost ? I heard what the right hon. Gentleman said, and I have also studied what he said in the final part of his statement about it being
"within the budgetary constraints laid down."
Frankly, if that is so, it is remarkable. My understanding is that if there is only a 1·8 per cent. cut in the cereal price, we shall be spending tens of millions of pounds extra this year and hundreds of millions of pounds extra next year on account of only the cereal prices themselves.
In my view—
Mr. Edward Leigh: Too long.
Mr. Eric Forth: Too long.
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. John: I am talking about the most serious part of the agricultural year — [Interruption.] To most Conservative Members, it is a matter of pocketing the difference. To millions of consumers, it is a matter of vital importance.
The millions who are offended by the spectre of unwanted cereals will regard the Council of Ministers' ducking of the major issue of this Council as arrant political cowardice. I believe that the complacency that the Council has shown now will give way to blind panic and cereal quotas. If that happens, the farming community will once more have to cope with ministerial shortcomings.
Mr. Jopling: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind words about the continuation of the beef variable premium arrangements. Perhaps I can help him In his question. A date — 6 April — has been put into the agreement, but the Commissioner has giver me an undertaking that, if the marketing years are extended, the beef variable premium will be extended with that. That means that it will be extended on the same basis that it has been over many years.
It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to talk about annual blackmail. The reason why we have the arrangement annually is that when it was introduced by Lord Peart back in 1975, for the next five years it was renewed only on an annual basis. Therefore, we are left with what his Government arranged during those years.
On sheepmeat, again, I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his warm welcome. With regard to the other things that he mentioned, he will understand that I heard what he said about the need for a debate. but my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is in his place, and he, too, will have heard what the hon. Gentleman said.
On fruit and vegetables, the hon. Gentleman will have heard what I said earlier. There are reductions for fruit and vegetables of up to minus 3 per cent. That is a good move.
On the costs of the package, it is clear from what the Commissioner has told us that he believes that the package will be budgetarily neutral in 1985 and will come within the financial guidelines in 1986.
On cereals, I find it strange that the hon. Gentleman speaks about ducking the issue. The German delegation used the Luxembourg compromise, which meant that the debate could not be concluded but had to continue. The response of successive British Governments to that appeal by a member state, which in the past we have used ourselves, is well known. It is not fair, and shows no understanding of the situation, to speak of ducking the issue.
I understand that all compromise proposals on cereals have lapsed. We must wait and see whether the Commission comes up with new ideas before the Council meeting on 11 June. I have made my negotiating position clear in recent months. I have always believed—I told the House when we debated the matter — that the guarantee threshold for cereals should be properly implemented. I will be ready to consider the new proposals that the Commission puts before us on 11 June.
Several Hon. Members rose —
Mr. Speaker: Order. I understand the importance of the statement to the House, but I have to have regard also

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to the fact that no fewer than 42 right hon. and hon. Members are anxious to take part in the subsequent debate. I will therefore, allow questions to continue until 4.5 pm.
Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the deep reentment, not only in Northern Ireland, about the special treatment once again afforded to the Irish Republic ? Is he aware that the nominally temporary nature of that treatment is regarded with some scepticism ?
Mr. Jopling: The right hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that I opposed the increase in the Irish quota throughout the piece, as I opposed any extra for Ireland a year ago. The difficulty this year was that, while last year I had supporters in my opposition, this year I had none. Therefore, in the end, it was impossible to resist the increase of 58,000 tonnes. However, I sternly resisted any suggestion that it should be placed on a permanent basis. That is why the increase applies only to 1985–85 and 1985–86.
Sir Peter Mills: Will my right hon. Friend agree that the Opposition are making heavy weather of a very good agreement worked out after some 60 hours of work and only three hours sleep ? My right hon. Friend is to be congratulated on what he has achieved, especially the supplementary levy that will be collected annually at the end of the year. That must be of tremendous benefit.
May I add one note of criticism ? We are getting tired of the Irish Republic getting away with it not only in the last price review but on the subsidies that it receives for exports to this country.
Mr. Jopling: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's generous words. I believe that the payment of the levy annually will help producers who could have found themselves in difficulty if they had altered their seasonal patterns, and so will help a number of our producers. The Irish settlement has been allowed in the belief that a statistical error was made by the Irish Government a year ago. I opposed it all the way through the piece. It is a pity that more states did not take the same view.
Mr. Nigel Spearing: Now that both the United Kingdom and West Germany have invoked the Luxembourg arrangement in regard to agricultural prices, is it not clear that the EEC would work a great deal more smoothly if an element of flexibility were introduced into the common agri-cultural policy to allow national Governments to meet the unique agricultural and social needs of their countryside ?
Mr. Jopling: I do not quite know what the hon. Gentleman's attitude is to use of the Luxembourg compromise, but he will know that the British Government have always taken the view that it is right for delegations and member states to have that weapon. We are all interested to observe that the West Germans have now joined the club.
Sir Hector Monro: I thank my right hon. Friend very much indeed for the hard work that he and his colleagues have put in on our behalf in Brussels. May I say how much we appreciate the retention of the beef premium and the sheepmeat regime and the change in the co-responsibility levy ? Will my right hon. Friend and his
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colleagues try in future to get some continuity so that farmers do not have to hang on until May to know what the year holds for them ?
Mr. Jopling: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I understand the problem of continuity. Matters have been made a good deal more difficult this year because a new Commission came into office on 1 January and it could not produce its proposals as early as usual. There were some delays in discussing the matter, which I opposed at the time. I have continually told my colleagues that we must try to settle earlier. My hon. Friend will be aware that, in the past, the settlements have had to wait until June.
Mr. Geraint Howells: As the Minister has just said, six months is too long to sort out the annual price negotiations. What can the Minister do in future negotiations to ensure that they are finalised within a few weeks ? I welcome the decision for beef producers and sheep producers, but it is only short-term. I wish that the Minister and his counterparts in Europe would discuss the long-term future of agriculture. Confidence would be restored if the industry knew that the variable beef premium and the sheepmeat regime would remain in force for the next 10 years. I should like to ask the Minister two other questions, one on quotas — [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Were quotas discussed for other products which are produced in Britain ? Finally—[HoN. MEMBERS: "Really!"]—
Mr. Speaker: Order. That would be an abuse when so many other hon. Members want to get in. The hon. Gentleman has done jolly well.
Mr. Jopling: I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman said about the beef and sheepmeat arrange-ments. They were difficult to achieve, but they are good. I agree that six months is too long, but I do not believe that we could have settled the sheep and beef arrangements satisfactorily at an earlier meeting. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman agrees that it is better to wait to get the right decision than to get the wrong one early.
As for the hon. Gentleman's question about quotas on other products, I have been worried for a long time about the possibility of quotas creeping into the cereals sector. I raised the issue with my colleagues at one stage and I can tell the House that I have been considerably heartened to hear that a good many of my ministerial colleagues on the Council strongly oppose cereal quotas. I hope that, when we discuss some of the more long-term studies in Italy next week, we shall be able to fortify that strong feeling in the Council of Ministers that cereal quotas are not the way out.
Mr. Leigh: On that very point, will my right hon. Friend confirm to the cereal farmers whom I represent, who are arguably the most efficient in the world, that he will not tolerate a repetition of what developed in milk last year—when, because of agriculture ministers' failure to act on price, huge surpluses built up and draconian quotas had to be introduced at the last moment ? If necessary, will my right hon. Friend invoke the Luxembourg compromise to veto any suggestion by our Common Market partners that we should have quotas on cereals, as that would be devastating for the fertile eastern counties ?
Mr. Jopling: I am afraid that I cannot anticipate the attitude that one would take to future proposals in the discussions. I can only say that if my hon. Friend had

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heard what I said in the Council about the possibility of cereal quotas, he might have accused me of reading his speeches.
Mr. Thomas Torney: Has the Minister considered that there would be no surplus if we sent surpluses to the Third world, where millions of people are starving ? Will he press the Commission to dispose of this awkward problem in that way ?
Mr. Jopling: The hon Gentleman, who takes a great interest in these matters, knows that the Community has been extraordinarily generous with food aid. Substantial quantities of grain are supplied by the European Community and the United Kingdom, under the food aid convention. The Community is committed to providing more than 1.65 million tonnes annually. While I agree that we must be as generous as possible, the hon. Gentleman is wrong not to recognise what we have already done.
Mr. Albert McQuarrie: I congratulate my right hon. Friend and his ministerial colleagues on their success, which has been welcomed in Scotland. Is my right hon. Friend aware that beef producers in the United Kingdom suffered a considerable setback in the target price this year, which according to the National Farmers Union will amount to £45 million up to 20 April ? Can he give the House an undertaking that he will endeavour to improve the support to the beef sector, for example, by intervention, so that there will be a good back-up to the beef premium scheme ?
Mr. Jopling: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's remarks. I noticed that the National Farmers Union of Scotland talked about the settlement on beef and sheepmeat as good news for producers and consumers, and welcomed the British Government's stand. I am aware that, during the past few weeks, the beef market has weakened. However, I hope that as we move away from the period in which a good many cows are being slaughtered as a result of the milk quota arrangements, we shall see more stability in the beef market, and that producers' returns will be improved as we move into the second stage of the carcase classification grid, to which I referred earlier.
Mr. Robert Maclennan: Is the Minister aware that the package, which he described somewhat oddly as meeting the Government's objectives, has been rejected by the president of the NFU who said that it
"does very little to help the industry with its current problems."
Does the Minister realise that, even if the Government had these extremely limited objectives, he has failed to satisfy those who are worried about the budgetary costs and the trading impact of the cereal surplus, and that if he does not end his somewhat dogmatic opposition to quotas, a system will be forced on him for which he is wholly unprepared ?
Mr. Jopling: I can only say that, if the hon. Gentleman reads carefully the statement by the president of the NFU on 17 May, he will see phrases such as
"I greatly welcome the Minister's success in retaining the variable premium for beef … I also welcome the decision to reduce the milk co-responsibility levy."
The president further stated that he was "pleased to know" about the sheepmeat arrangements. That seems to me to be rather a warm response. If the hon. Gentleman is critical of the fact that we were unable to achieve what I
740
regard as a realistic settlement on cereals, he should re-read his speech in the House on 18 March, in which he said:
"Therefore, I hope that it will not be necessary to attack cereal production too savagely in one year."—.[Official Report, 18 March 1985; Vol. 75, c. 664.]
As usual, in his stumbling way, the hon. Gentleman does not know what he wants.
Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: Is it the present position on the Luxembourg compromise that Germany can exercise a veto and we cannot ? Secondly,. what need is there for a co-responsibility levy now that the quota scheme is in operation ?
Mr. Jopling: I may not understand exactly what my hon. Friend meant by his second point. We continue to have a co-responsibility levy, which is now running at 2 per cent. I have always expressed my opposition to the co-responsibility levy. I am glad that many Ministers now join me in being critical of it, and talk of the need to phase it out. My hon. Friend's first point is wrong, in that it strengthens our hand considerably to know that the German Government also believe in the use of the Luxembourg compromise. That can only strengthen the hand of other countries which believe that that weapon should be available.
Mr. Dafydd Wigley: Although I welcome the Minister's success in withstanding the threats to sheep and milk, It appears that he was fighting a rearguard action at the meeting. Does he accept that farmers in Wales want him to go out with positive plans to safeguard their long-term future instead of fighting such rearguard actions ? They want positive plans such as those put on behalf of Ireland — the Irish Government succeeded in part — but which we appear not to be putting forward.
Mr. Jopling: The hon. Gentleman is being unreasonable by nitpicking simply because I got what I wanted at a late stage in the negotiations. A prominent farming leader in Wales jumped the gun and criticised the settlement because he imagined that we would not get some of the things that I was determined to get. He should be satisfied, and should rejoice that we got what we wanted.
Mr. Robert Jackson: On the Luxembourg, compromise, the British Government's position at least has the merit of consistency. Is it not a bizarre exhibition of political incoherence that the Federal Republic of Germany should advocate European union and then invoke the Luxembourg compromise in defence of an industry that represents 0·2 per cent. of German GNP ?
Mr. Jopling: I am sure that my hon. Friend welcomes, as I do, the conversion of the German Government to the use of this device. Although it has taken them many years to come round to it, let us welcome them into the fold.
Mr. Tony Speller: May I first congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing a package far better than many of us had expected ? Secondly, does he believe that the increase in prices to producers of 1 per cent., 1·5 per cent. or eventually 2·5 per cent., is reasonable at a time when inflation is nearly 7 per cent. ?
Mr. Jopling: It is a difficult equation to put to dairy farmers, but all dairy farmers understand that they do not have the right to continue producing milk that is not

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wanted. I remind my hon. Friend that about 12 per cent. of the milk that we shall produce this year will be surplus to consumption in the European Community. Production will be about 98 million tonnes, whereas consumption will be only 86 million tonnes. Most farmers realise that we must adjust to the reality of the position, and, like it or not, that spells a difficult economic equation.
Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the marginal farmers in my constituency will be pleased with his success in the beef and sheepmeat regimes ? Does he accept that they will be hopping mad, as I am, that Ireland has again got away with murder ? I hope that it will not next year. As to quotas, will he beaver away to try to alter the odd formula which penalises farmers who were upgrading their herds at the relevant date ? They were penalised because they had some up-and-coming heifers in their herds at the time.
Mr. Jopling: On my hon. Friend's last comment, I am aware of the problems of dairy farmers who had undertaken expansion programmes. That is one difficulty that emerges from the quota arrangements. I am grateful for her generous remarks at the beginning about our success. With her, I am not pleased with what we eventually had to agree for the Irish.
Mr. Richard Shepherd: Has my right hon. Friend estimated the increased cost to be borne by the British Exchequer, the British taxpayer and the British consumer as a result of the agreement ?
Mr. Jopling: My hon. Friend will understand that it is impossible to estimate an overall figure while part of the package will continue to be negotiated on 11 June. I remind him that the Commission believes that the agreement will be budgetarily neutral in 1985.
Mr. Dennis Skinner rose —
Mr. Speaker: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he was here for the statement ?
Mr. Skinner: Yes—part of it.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Carlisle.
Mr. John Carlisle: Does my right hon. Friend accept that there will be great disappointment in the cereals trade about the inability to reach agreement, and that that will cause enormous uncertainty ? What will be the effect of the guarantee by the American Government of about S2 billion of export credit for cereals next year on his talks on 11 June and on the settlement which I hope will then be reached ?
Mr. Jopling: My hon. Friend puts his finger on an important point. I hope that that announcement in Washington will have a salutary effect on my colleagues, who will realise that they cannot fly in the face of economic reality for long.
Mr. Forth: Will my right hon. Friend give the Prime Minister a detailed account of the negotiations and the Federal Republic of Germany's use of the veto so that, when she goes to Milan this month and is lectured about European unity, she can draw the attention of the other member states to the realities of political life in Europe ?
Mr. Jopling: I have done that already.

Bidston Steelworks (Closure)
4.5 pm
Mr. Frank Field: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 10, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the proposed closure of the Bidston steelworks in Birkenhead."
My request is specific, because it relates to an announcement of closure made on Friday. It is urgent, because the closure will take place in an area where unemployment is already more than 40 per cent. It is important to have the debate, because it would allow me to illustrate how the proposed closure of Bidston steelworks is contrary to two central planks of Government policy. First, the Government say that they believe in competition, but Allied Steel is trying to buy Bidston steelworks only with the aim of closing a competitor. Secondly, the Government say that they are firmly committed to the private sector, yet Allied Steel, which is half owned by the British Steel Corporation, is using taxpayers' money to destroy jobs in Birkenhead.
Above all, I hope that my application will be successful because it will allow me to express at greater length the anger in our town following the announcement that those jobs will be snatched from our area and transferred to the south.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the proposed closure of the Bidston steelworks in Birkenhead."
I fully understand the hon. Gentleman's anxiety, and I listened carefully to what he said, but I regret that I do not consider that the matter which he has raised is appropriate fo discussion under Standing Order No. 10, and I cannot, therefore, submit his application to the House.

BILL PRESENTED
  UNSOLICITED NEWSPAPERS (LIMITATION OF DELIVERY)
  Mr. Tony Spellerpresented a Bill to prevent delivery of free newspapers to a dwelling where the occupier or his representative has given notice in writing to the publisher of a free newspaper that he or she no longer wishes to receive copies of that newspaper: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 7 June and to be printed. [Bill 148.]

Shop Hours (Auld Report)
Mr. Speaker: We now come to the important debate on the Auld committee report on the Shops Act. I have selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition. I repeat that more than 42 right hon. and hon. Members have expressed their wish to take part in the debate. Therefore, I intend to limit speeches to 10 minutes between 6 pm and 7.50 pm; but if those who speak after then stick to that limit, or speak for even less time, I hope that there will be more than enough time for everyone to take part.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of your suggestion during the statement by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, will you give an assurance, in accordance with that precedent, that no one will be allowed to speak in the debate this evening unless he or she has heard the opening speech by the Secretary of State ? It is not a bad idea, and you should stick to it through thick and thin.
Mr. Speaker: I am exceedingly grateful for the hon. Gentleman's tip.
4.9 pm
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Leon Brittan): I beg to move,
That this House takes note of the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into Proposals to Amend the Shops Acts (Cmnd. 9376); accepts the case for the removal of legislative limitations on shop hours; and looks forward to the Government bringing forward legislation to remove such limitations.
Shop opening hours were last considered in depth by this House during the debate on the Bill introduced in 1983 by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney). By then it was clear that there was hardly anyone who considered the present state of the law satisfactory. The argument for change was put forward on a number of different bases. In the first place, it was almost universally felt that the present distinctions between what could be sold on Sunday and what could not be sold were so arbitrary and outdated as to be indefensible. It was not just a question of a few items that were on the wrong side of the dividing line. There no longer appeared to be a rational dividing line at all. Secondly, there was deep anxiety about the continued existence on the statute book of a law that was being increasingly flouted, and which many if not most local authorities were either simply not prepared to enforce effectively or were unable to do so. These objections to the present law were not seriously challenged.
But in addition, many hon. Members put the case for change in a more positive way. They felt that restrictions on shop opening hours—let us not forget that we are talking about late opening as well as Sunday opening—were an unjustifiable and outdated restriction on the basic freedom that should exist for the consumer to be able to have the choice to shop when he wanted to and for the shopkeeper to be able to assess the wishes of his customers and meet them if he wanted to do so. It was felt by many that the limitations on shop hours were contrary to the interests of the consumer, no longer reflected current social patterns and preferences and were an unjustifiable hindrance to the growth of trade, and in particular the growth of tourism.
None the less, in spite of the virtually universal condemnation of the existing law and the widespread,
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although by no means universal, belief in the positive merits of change, the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend did not commend itself to the House. A considerable number of hon. Members feared the impact of complete deregulation on the fundamental character of Sunday. Just how many shops would open on Sunday, and which shops would they be ? Other hon. Members were anxious about the impact of such a change on those working in shops and owning them. Would small shops close on an extensive scale, and would there be a major loss of jobs ? Others again wondered whether some compromise or half way house was feasible. Although no one had really suggested any viable new basis for deciding when shops might open during the week or which shops should be allowed to open on Sunday, would not a more careful examination of the problem yield an acceptable and defensible solution falling short of complete decontrol ?
It was because of the combination of almost universal dissatisfaction with the present state of the law, and a widespread feeling of uncertainty about the effects of change and the possible forms that it might take that I decided to accept the suggestions made from all parts of the House, that an inquiry should be appointed to look into the whole question. I accordingly appointed an independent committee of inquiry in July 1983 under the chairmanship of Mr. Robin Auld, QC. The following were the terms of reference:
"To consider what changes are needed in the Shops Acts, having regard to the interests of consumers, employers and employees and to the traditional character of Sunday, and to make recommendations as to how these should be achieved."
The House will note that the committee of inquiry was specifically required to have regard, among other factors, to the fundamental character of Sunday.
The membership of the committee was deliberately small, but in order to ensure that the main groups interested could satisfy themselves that the evidence submitted to the committee was comprehensive and rigorously scrutinised, I appointed six assessors. They represented the employers — both large and small —employees, consumers, the churches and the local authorities. Their main task was to ensure that the committee obtained evidence from across the spectrum of their interests and to offer comment on that evidence. My aim was to ensure that every possible solution to the problem was put to the committee and thoroughly examined by those likely to object to it, as well as by the members of the committee themselves. I know that the committee much appreciated the specialist advice it received from its assessors, and I am grateful to them for their work.
In addition, I commissioned the Institute for Fiscal Studies to carry out an economic review, which has been published as appendix 6 of the Auld report. This was designed to meet the concern that had been expressed that there was much speculation but little hard evidence on the economic effects that increased trading hours would have.
Now that hon. Members have had a chance to read and assimilate the report of the Auld committee, I am sure that they will wish to join me in thanking Mr. Robin Auld, QC and his colleagues, Mrs. Liliana Archibald and Miss Frances Cairncross for their comprehensive study. I of course realise that their recommendations are not universally accepted, but I am sure that their thoroughness has given us a solid and informed basis on which to take decisions.
Mr. Eric S. Heffer: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say how, exactly, he decided upon the membership of the committee ? Frances Cairncross has written an interesting article in today's edition of The Times which tries to persuade hon. Members to go further, in one sense, than the Auld report by agreeing completely that the traditional character of Sunday should be abolished. How was Frances Cairncross chosen ? Was she an independent character ? Where does she stand and where does the right hon. and learned Gentleman stand in relation to what she said ?
Mr. Brittan: At the time of the appointments there was no criticism whatsoever that any of those who were appointed to the committee were other than independent. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I did not have the faintest idea about the views of any of the Committee members.
Mr. George Foulkes: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way ?
Mr. Brittan: No, I must proceed.
As the report shows, over 300 organisations and individuals submitted evidence in response to invitations from the committee. In addition, another 7,000 people sent evidence to the committee which was able to consider it with the benefit of help from the assessors.
The report of the inquiry and the accompanying economic review place the discussion on the future of shop opening hours in an entirely different context to that when the House considered the Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe. Those hon. Members who took a particular view in 1983 are fully entitled to reconsider the position, now that a report has been published exploring all the main questions which caused anxiety in 1983 and led many hon. Members to feel unable to support the change in the law being then proposed.
The committee examined the obstacles and objections, but in considering whether trading hours should be the subject of legal restriction they started from the premise that
"the law should not interfere in the conduct of human affairs unless it serves a justifiable purpose … in doing so"—
a premise which I am sure that the House would share.
The committee examined carefully the arguments for legal restrictions in the light of the interests of consumers, employers, employees and of those wanting to preserve the traditional character of Sunday.
Mr. Skinner: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way ?
Mr. Brittan: No, not for the moment.
It came to the conclusion that none of these interests or combinations of interests justified the continuation of statutory restrictions on trading hours.
Mr. Foulkes: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way ?
Mr. Brittan: I shall in a moment.
The Committee considered very carefully all the possibilities for partial deregulation, with which I should like to deal before giving way to the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes), as I shall, of course, do. Just how widespread the present anomalies are was well illustrated by the article in last Saturday's Daily Telegraph which pointed out that on
746
Sunday one can buy alcohol but not dried milk for babies, aspirin but not toothpaste or soap. Newsagents can sell sweets and newspapers but not the Bible or stationery. Grocers can sell fresh or frozen fruit but not tinned fruit. One can buy cut flowers but not plants. One cannot buy fish and chips in a fish and chip shop, but one can buy other take-away food.
The committee therefore naturally looked at various kinds of proposals for revising the schedules of goods that can be sold late at night or on Sundays. It concluded that there was no way of compiling a list which would not now or in the future be every bit as plagued with anomalies as the present legislation. It is relevant to point out the extent of those anomalies.
Mr. Foulkes: The Home Secretary has detailed all the further consideration that has taken place by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, and the Auld committee and its assessors and he invites hon. Members who voted one way on a previous occasion to reconsider their point of view. How can his hon. Friends reconsider their views if, because of the Whip, they are not allowed to exercise their own judgment and their own consciences ?
Mr. Brittan: I am sure that my hon. Friends will be greatly assisted by the hon. Gentleman's intervention. The Government are fully entitled to express their views and to seek to persuade my hon. Friends of the merits of those views. As the hon. Gentleman knows, it has been made clear to my hon. Friends who have deeply held conscientious views, that their views are fully respected.
Mr. A. E. P. Duffy: Will the Home Secretary give way ?
Mr. Brittan: Not for the moment.
I was explaining that the Auld committee looked unsuccessfully at the possibility of compiling a different list of the schedule of goods that could and could not be sold on Sundays. Members of the committee also considered proposals that Sunday trading should be limited to certain kinds of shop or to shops of a certain size, but, again, they could see no way of finding a solution that would work. What type of shop should be allowed to trade ? In these days of mixed shops, it would be hard to produce separate and distinct categories of shops that should or should not be allowed to trade.
The committee considered exemption by size of shop, exemption for self-employed retailers, exemption by area and exemption by periods of the year. It examined the call for a maximum number of hours or days per week. It looked at the possibility of an extension of the present trading hours. Chapter 5 of the report is a thorough, unprejudiced examination of all the alternatives that were put forward.
The committee no doubt felt, as do many hon. Members, that something short of complete deregulation might be more acceptable if it were viable. But the analysis is devastating. Each of the alternative limitations is shown to be either indefensible or unworkable. The conclusion, which is amply supported by a reason, is:
"In our view, all the forms of control canvassed in our Inquiry, while affording protection to some, would neglect the interests of others. More importantly, we are convinced that none of the suggestions for reform, short of complete abolition of restrictions, would work. None of them would work because they would not form the basis of a fair, simple and readily enforceable system of regulation."

747
The committee therefore recommended the complete abolition of all the statutory restrictions on retail trading hours, both during the week and on Sundays.
Mr. Harry Greenway: Will my right hon. and learned Friend agree that we are dealing with Sunday, which is a day when people are expressing their religious convictions in one way or another, and the arguments of the Auld committee, important though they may be, deal only with facts ? People's faith and their convictions must be considered. My right hon. and learned Friend's comments seem to take no account of that fact.
Mr. Brittan: I respect what my hon. Friend has said and I shall be coming to those aspects of the matter.
Mr. Laurie Pavitt: Will the Home Secretary give way ?
Mr. Brittan: Not for the moment.
The Shops Act also contains provisions relating to the conditions of work of shop workers, in particular young shop workers. The committee concluded that it would be wrong to preserve the rigid provisions of part H of the Shops Act 1950 in statutory form. It was, however, worried about the demands that might be made on shop workers in the event of deregulation and, although it was not within its terms of reference, it recommended the retention for retail workers of the machinery of wages councils.
The House knows that, since the committee reported last year, the Government have produced a consultative paper on wages councils. The question whether the machinery of wages councils should be retained is important not only to workers in the retail trade, but to all the other workers covered by wages councils legislation.
The position of shop workers, vis-á-vis shop opening hours, will be given detailed and sympathetic considera-tion in the context of the consultation that is taking place, and what is said in the debate will be taken into account as part of that process of consultation. The Government will announce their conclusions on the future of wages councils before any legislation on shop hours is put before the House.
Mr. Pavitt: The Home Secretary read the last paragraph of chapter 5 of the Auld committee. Does he agree that the evidence in other chapters refutes the assertion that the evidence received by the committee was conclusive ?
Mr. Brittan: The evidence was carefully analysed. Whatever else may be said about the Auld committee, its capacity to analyse specific suggestions for partial methods of decontrol cannot be doubted. It was particularly well qualified to do that, and its conclusion was nothing other than a proper assessment of the evidence.
Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman: A comprehensive review of how people did their shopping was carried out by the National Consumer Council. It reported that only one respondent in 10 found existing shopping hours inconvenient. How can the Auld report support its contention in chapter 5 that there is no justification for the continued regulation of opening hours ? Surely the reverse is the case. There is no excuse for changing the law when only 10 per cent. of the population want a change.
Mr. Brittan: Whether or not people find existing hours convenient is a different matter from whether the criminal law should continue to be used to enforce those hours.
I shall come later to the other safeguards for those working in shops and the impact on employment more generally. Faced with the Auld committee's conclusions about the lack of a viable halfway house, those who have anxieties about going along with the committee's decontrol recommendations have to ask themselves just what action they would now favour.
As a Minister whose primary responsibility is for law and order, I could not advise the House to let the present position remain unaltered.
Mr. Conal Gregory: Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way ?
Mr. John Carlisle: Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way ?
Mr. Brittan: In a moment.
The law is being regularly, flagrantly and publicly flouted up and down the country. Some local authorities seek to enforce it to the best of their abilities, others do so patchily and many have not the slightest wish to do so and go through the motions only when they are threatened with legal action if they fail to bring some prosecutions.
The result is inconsistency and injustice on a massive scale. Sometimes it is the small shops that are prosecuted and the large ones that get away. In other places, the reverse policy is followed. Everybody will be aware of situations where the same type of shop is prosecuted in one local authority area and escapes prosecution if it happens to be half a mile away in another district.
Mr. Gregory rose —
Mr. John Carlisle rose —
Mr. Brittan: I shall give way in a moment.
The reason why this has happened is quite simple. The Shops Acts do not penalise behaviour that is self-evidently of a criminal character. They are a means of prescribing a particular, limited pattern of trading. Social change has made that pattern of trading no longer one which is sufficiently generally acceptable for the criminal law to be regarded as an appropriate means of enforcing it.
Mr. Gregory: My right hon. and learned Friend lays a lot of store by the legal consequences. From his senior legal position, does he agree that much of the problem results from the fact that he has not sent a circular to local authorities and enforcement officers setting out their abilities and right to enforce the law ?
Mr. Brittan: I do not believe that that is true. The local authorities are well aware of the law. The real reason why they are not enforcing it is that in large parts of the country local people do not want the law enforced.
Mr. John Carlisle: The fact that the law is an ass in this instance is no reason for the Government to do away with it completely. Is there not some halfway house—even if it was not considered by the Auld committee—that my right hon. and learned Friend could have looked at ? This is a matter of deep conscience for hon. Members on both sides of the House.
Mr. Brittan: I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend's suggestion as to what that halfway house should be. The Auld committee looked at every variant that was

749
presented. Indeed, the committee was equipped with assessors representing all views—not all of them were by any means in favour of deregulation—in order to ensure that it considered every variant. However, it was unable to find any variant that stood up.
Several Hon. Members rose —
Mr. Brittan: I shall give way in a moment.
I say this to those hon. Members who deplore that this has come about. I deeply respect and can readily understand the feelings of those who observe with sadness and regret the social changes that have taken place. But is it feasible for us now to turn the clock back ? If no viable halfway house is available, for any society that believes in the rule of law, the only alternative to removing the sanctions of the criminal law is to enforce them. As long as the prospect of change was in the air, it was just about possible to tolerate a degree of inconsistency and injustice. But it was becoming increasingly uncomfortable to so so. We now have no excuse for not making up our minds, and if we do not proceed in the way Auld recommends, we will really have to do everything in our power to enforce the present laws.
Faced with clear evidence of an extremely widespread desire on the part of large numbers of shopkeepers and their customers to do what may be regrettable but is not inherently criminal, I frankly find the prospect of an attempt to enforce the present law almost impossible to contemplate. The protests that would rain down on us from our constituents if that were attempted would make the lobby against VAT on newspapers seem like an amateurish effort on the part of a particularly badly organised constituency party branch.
Mr. Michael Grylls: Will my right hon. and learned Friend take comfort from the experience in Massachusetts and Sweden where shop hours were quite recently freed ? Despite the fears of some small retailers that they might suffer, the opposite happened, and many new opportunities were provided for businesses and retailers, and for the creation of new jobs. If we are serious about new jobs, as we are, it is essential to sweep away this very old-fashioned law.
Mr. Brittan: I take the point that my hon. Friend has made. It would be unacceptable to enforce the present law to its full rigour because of the very great social changes that have taken place since the 1950 Act. In 1951, for example, only 24 per cent. of married women below pensionable age worked full or part-time. By 1981, that figure had risen to 57 per cent. It is not much use to those women—or to their husbands and families—if shops are open only during the time that they are at work.
Mr. Andrew Faulds rose —
Mr. Brittan: But for many people Sunday is a special day to be set aside for religious worship and observance. Those who wish to confine what they do on Sunday to that deserve our fullest and sincerest respect. For most people, however—
Several Hon. Members rose —
Mr. Brittan: I shall give way in a moment, but I am making an important point.
For most people, however, there is no conflict between going to church and undertaking all the other activities that
750
are popular on Sunday: leisure, entertainment, sporting and other outdoor activities, as well as cleaning, decorating, gardening or whatever it may be. Shopping is one of the activities that people would increasingly like to be able to undertake on Sundays. Sunday shopping provides an opportunity for shopping as a family, which is greatly welcomed by the very many families who cannot shop together during the week. The question that we have to ask is whether we have the right to continue to use the criminal law to deprive them of that choice.
Mr. Duffy: The Home Secretary has spelt out and, in his own words, respected, the special character of Sunday. That presumably explains why the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department told the House the last time we debated Sunday trading that any decision about any change in the character of Sunday that involved deregulation would be a matter of conscience for each hon. Member. The Under-Secretary's speech to the House on that occasion can be found in column 557 of Hansard for 4 February 1983. Why has the Home Secretary changed his mind ?
Mr. Brittan: The hon. Gentleman is well aware that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State was setting out the position in the relation to the debate that day. The Government responded clearly to the request of the House that there should be an inquiry. Following that inquiry, which examined the very matters that cause concern to the House, the Government are entitled to express their views and to say to those of my right hon. and hon. Friends who feel unable to go along with them, that their consciences are fully respected.
Mr. Gerald Kaufman: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is misrepresenting what happened on 4 February. The Under-Secretary of State said:
"There are important considerations and fears about the character of Sunday … These fears are held in many parts of the House and I agree that they are an important factor. That is why the Government adhere to the view, which successive Governments have adhered to, that the decision must be for the individual conscience of hon. Members."—[Official Report, 4 February 1983: Vol. 36, c. 557.]
The Under-Secretary of State was talking not about the Shops Bill but about the general principle. Why will the Government not keep their word and have a free vote today ?
Mr. Brittan: The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the view expressed on that occasion related to that Bill, and it is utterly inconceivable that the Government would be expressing a view as to the position that they would take two years later in response to a report that had not even been commissioned, let alone published.
I was explaining why I took the view that the question that we must ask is whether the right to continue to use the criminal law to deprive people of their choice is justified. I believe that we should only take that view, quite apart from questions of enforceability, if there is reason to believe that a change in the law would lead to a substantial and damaging change in the quality of life on Sunday which would otherwise not take place. The example of Scotland, where there has been no general prohibition on Sunday trading for 50 years, does not lead one to believe that this would be the case. One of the reasons for this is

751
that, although deregulation provides freedom of choice, in practice the consequences of change are unlikely to be as great as some people have feared.
I appreciate the anxiety felt by retailers, particularly small ones, about the impact of deregulation on their businesses.
Mr. Patrick Cormack: Will my right hon. and learned Friend accept that the explanation that he sought to give of the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State just will not wash ? When my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary gave that undertaking to the House, it was widely believed that he was saying that this was, indeed, an issue of conscience on which we were all entitled to form an opinion without being pressurised. What most offends those of us on this side of the House who oppose the Bill is the way in which my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary is seeking to steamroller this thing through the House.
Mr. Brittan: My hon. Friend is doing less than justice to my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary. From the moment that this debate loomed on the horizon it was made abundantly clear that my right hon. Friend fully accepted the conscientious objections of any of my right hon. and hon. Friends. Those of them who have such objections will, I think, testify to the fact that when they have spoken to the Whips, that readiness and respect has been quite apparent.
I appreciate the anxiety felt by retailers—
Mr. Heffer: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We cannot hear the Home Secretary.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Ernest Armstrong): Order. The Home Secretary should address the whole House, and not turn his back on it.
Mr. Brittan: I appreciate the anxiety felt by retailers, particularly small ones, about the impact of deregulation on their businesses. The retail trade has been in the process of change for many years. The effect of deregulating opening hours will not in itself produce any large-scale change. The conclusion of the economic review by the Institute for Fiscal Studies states:
"it is unlikely that in any of the areas we have considered — costs, prices, employment and trading patterns—there would be effects which would be of sufficient magnitude to be distinguished readily from the other changes which would be occurring as the result of other influences on the style and structure of British retailing."
I also stress that the opportunities presented by deregulation will provide a stimulus to some sectors of the economy. Garden centres and DIY shops are obvious examples of the trade that will benefit, but there are many others, such as shops involved in the tourist trade. Tourists will certainly feel more welcome, and the economy will in turn benefit if tourists are able to spend more in shops.
Indeed, the British Tourist Authority, which is responsible for securing many jobs, told the Auld committee that the closure on Sundays of many shops causes a considerable loss of revenue for the nation from tourists and would-be shoppers.
None the less, there has been much genuine anxiety about the number of small businesses that will be destroyed if longer opening hours, particularly on a Sunday, are allowed. But, it does not follow that simply because late night or Sunday trading will be permitted, it will be anywhere near universal.
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Looking at the scale of Sunday opening, for example, the IFS in its study for the Auld committee considered whether Sunday opening would or would not be profitable for various types of retailer.
The IFS concluded that shops accounting for 48 per cent. of turnover would find Sunday opening profitable. The number of shops that will open is likely to be significantly less than this. We believe that for most of the year it will be in the region of 20 to 30 per cent.
It is interesting to note the results of a survey by 'Terry Burke, of the polytechnic of central London, carried out in April this year. On the basis of discussions with managers of one of the country's largest multiple chains, and answers to questionnaires received from 40 major retailing chains, he came to the conclusion that only 15 to 20 per cent. of high street shops will open all the year around, but that there will be widespread pre-Christmas, sales and holiday Sunday opening.
Mr. Faulds: The Home Secretary is emphasising the commercial aspects of these considerations but a little earlier when I tried unsuccessfully to intervene he said that the committee had considered all points of view Did the committee actually consider the proposition that instead of extending Sunday trading, more stringent restrictions should be imposed with which the Home Secretary should be prepared to require compliance ? Does the Home Secretary realise that, perhaps more north of the border than south of the border, Sunday has a special significance ?
Mr. Brittan: I do not think that that view commends itself to the majority north of the border. What I have said ties up with what happens in Scotland. In April this year, managers or assistants from 541 shops in Scotland were asked whether they would open the following Sunday—let us not forget that they are allowed to do so. Across the country 16 per cent. said that they would open but only 8 per cent. of those located in major town centres said that they would.
When the issue was last debated in the House there were also fears that increased retail trading hours would lead to an increase in prices. I think that the House should be reassured by the conclusion reached by the Institute for Fiscal Studies that in the long run the change will have a very small or negligible effect but that, if anything, they will tend to be reduced. If any savings were passed on to customers the effect would be to reduce the retail prices index by up to about 0·4 per cent.
The fears that have been most widely expressed have been those about the possible loss of jobs that might result from deregulation. The predictions from the study by the Institute for Fiscal Studies are that changes in the number of jobs available in the retail trade will be small both in relation to the total work force of some 2·2 million and to the recent trends of changes in retailing employment. Their model indicates that on the basis that there is no Sunday trading, although that is not now the case, there may be a loss in the short term of 5,000 full-time equivalent jobs and in the long term — by which is meant 10 to 20 years — a further 15,000 full-time equivalent jobs. But, of course, there is already a significant amount of Sunday trading which was not taken into account by IFS, so some of those job losses will have already occurred.
We believe that the Institute for Fiscal Studies probably underestimated the potential expansion in other related

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fields—for example, catering and tourism. It is a fallacy to believe that there is at any given time a fixed pool of shopping and that if shops are open longer, the same amount of goods will be bought, but over a longer period. It is quite likely that there would be some transfer of expenditure from the purchase of services to the purchase of goods. If sales were to rise by 2 per cent. the Institute for Fiscal Studies calculates that the equivalent of 9,000 extra jobs would be created over the next 10 to 20 years, and if they rise by 5 per cent. the equivalent of 51,000 full-time jobs in the same period.
Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: That is an interesting observation, because a considerable proportion of goods which are sold are imported, but 100 per cent. of services are the result of employment in Britain. Why should such a transfer from services to goods result in net employment rather than net lost employment ?
Mr. Brittan: It is impossible to make such a calculation.
The House will recall that, in addition to its recommendations on shop opening hours, the committee recommended abolition of all the special provisions relating to the conditions of work of shop workers contained in part II of the Shops Act 1950 and its associated provisions in other parts of the Act, although it recognised that a case would be argued for continuing protection in the case of young persons. Whether even in the case of young persons such protection, as opposed to the protection provided by the health and safety provisions, is nowadays needed is by no means clear. Moreover, just as in the case of adults, there is considerable doubt as to the effectiveness of the present restrictions. In spite of our very considerable doubts on these points, we shall listen very carefully to the views of the House and we shall want to consider any evidence which may be presented on the need for continuing to protect young persons in this way.
Mr. Peter Hordern: Earlier, my right hon. and learned Friend said that the Patronage Secretary would take account of those right hon. and hon. Members who had conscientious objections to the motion. However, we are not talking in particular about the conscientious objections of right hon. and hon. Members themselves, but of those which they know, from correspondence, exist among their constituents. Even more important, can my right hon. and learned Friend explain the Government's thinking about those shop assistants who have genuine convictions about not working on Sundays ?
Mr. Brittan: I know that very real fears have been expressed, not only by my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr. Hordern), and that if regulations are removed, those working in shops now might be forced to work on Sundays.
I understand that concern, not only by those who would be troubled on conscientious grounds about working on Sunday, but also by people who see their Sunday as a day apart, as an opportunity to be with their families and as a day on which they do not wish to work. For example, many married women have for years worked in a shop on the basis that they would do so during the week but would be able to spend Sunday with their families.
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That concern is reflected in the amendment to the motion tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill) and I know that it is very widely shared in the House. That is reflected in the signatures to the motion. Although the Auld committee did not believe that protection for those in this category would be feasible, on this issue I must differ from the committee. I accept in principle the case put forward by my hon. Friend and will look sympathetically at the best way of ensuring that established shop workers cannot be compelled to work on Sundays. Doing this will in no way detract from deregulation generally, as experience elsewhere suggests that there will be no shortage of volunteers who wish to work on Sundays.
Mr. A. J. Beith: The Home Secretary has made an important statement, which could be an important concession. Will he clarify what he meant by established shop workers ? Was he seeking to confer a right on those who happen to be employed in shops now, or was he talking about a right that would be extended to anyone seeking employment in the retail trade ?
Mr. Brittan: The former. With the qualifications that I mentioned, I recommend that the House accepts the conclusions of the Auld committee. The Government will seek an early opportunity to present to the House legislation to that effect. It is not possible to put back the clock and I do not think that there would be public support for enforcing the current criminal law.
Many people want change for positive reasons—the main one being not the benefit that that would confer on any particular section of the economy, important though that may be, but rather that restrictions on the freedom of traders to trade and customers to buy what they want, when they want, are inconsistent with the development of a free economy. The onus must rest on those who seek to maintain such restrictions. I believe that that onus can no longer be discharged.
4.51 pm
Mr. Gerald Kaufman: I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
"requires that any legislation relating to shop hours should include full and proper protection for the pay and working conditions of shop workers."
This is an issue that arouses strong feelings and very differing views. I was interested to hear the Home Secretary say that if a law is habitually not observed, it is important that that law should be changed. Does that mean that, as we now have the greatest outbreak of robbery known in the history of our country, the Government will remove the laws against robbery ? Does it mean that if, under the new public order legislation, people do not observe the bans and restrictions on open-air meetings, the Government will remove them ? Does it mean that where the law is sufficiently broken, the Home Secretary will not seek to uphold it but will change it to suit those who broke the law ?
Mr. Brittan: As the right hon. Gentleman has put his remarks in the form of questions, I shall answer them. He knows perfectly well the difference between a law that is broken and a law that is unacceptable because it is no longer one that the majority of people want.
Mr. Kaufman: Therefore, we are to have laws maintained on the basis of opinion polls, are we ? If an

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opinion poll shows that the Government's employment legislation is unacceptable, may we take it that the Home Secretary will come forward and repeal that legislation ?
Several Hon. Members rose —
Mr. Kaufman: I shall give way to everyone, but in my own time. I want to get under way for a minute or two, and I shall then give way.
Quite apart from the personal opinions that each of us may hold on this issue, every hon. Member will have received representations from large numbers of outside interests, both legitimate and less legitimate, on this matter. Trading organisations are making different calculations about how a change in the law might affect their profitability. The Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers says one thing while the Association of Independent Retailers says quite another. The Retail Consortium sounds a discordant note, rather like the dissonance at the introduction to Mozart's 39th symphony. The co-operative movement speaks uniquely and more harmoniously, not only for its commercial interests but for its employees. That is highly proper because the co-op has 9 million members, and its employees, with their families, are also customers of its 6,000 shops.
Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the Labour party amendment is based entirely on material considerations ? Surely other considerations, such as moral and religious, are far more important.
Mr. Kaufman: I shall be coming in a moment to precisely the point raised by the hon. Lady.
Like others, the co-op believes in changing and making sense of the law without completely revoking control. Like many, it accepts that current legislation is awkwardly drafted, difficult to enforce and full of anomalies. It is also a strong champion of the traditional British Sunday.
In its belief that change is necessary but should be limited, the co-op shares the attitude of the associations of local authorities which have the unenviable task of enforcing current legislation. But even they differ from each other. The Association of Metropolitan Authorities opposes general Sunday opening, while recognising the need for amending legislation. The Association of District Councils is divided on unrestricted Sunday opening, but united in its wish to protect shopworkers. The Consumers Association supports complete deregulation. The churches have serious misgivings about the effect of Sunday deregulation on the religious observance of the Christian sabbath. All those great institutions and important interests do their best to see the case of those who disagree with them. Some of them have undergone agonies of conscience in making up their minds.
I come now to the intervention by the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mrs. Kellett-Bowman). The Opposition believe that issues of conscience require each individual to make up his or her mind. For that reason, we are having a free vote on the main question. The only people who are absolutely certain on this issue are the Government—not for them doubt, not for them thought, not for them the freedom of conscience championed by the Under-Secretary of State when he spoke in the House two years ago on the Bill introduced by the present Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security. I shall repeat what he said, which I quoted in my intervention during the Home Secretary's speech. He said:
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"There are important considerations and fears about the character of Sunday … These fears are held in many parts of the House and I agree that they are an important factor. That is why the Government adhere to the view, which successive Governments have adhered to, that the decision must he for the individual conscience of hon. Members."—[Official Report, 4 February 1983, Vol. 36. c. 557.]
Several Hon. Members rose —
Mr. Kaufman: I wish to say a few more words, then I shall readily give way.
When I intervened, the Home Secretary effectively said that Tory Members could have a conscience on a private Member's Bill, but they must abandon their conscience on the orders of the Government-even though, if they ask nicely, they may be given permission to think about having a conscience.
Mr. John Gorst: I inform the right hon. Gentleman that I have come to the House to abstain because I do not accept that, although I am in favour of this measure, any of my colleagues on either side of the House should be forced either to vote for something in which they do not believe or to do something that other colleagues are not forced to do.
Mr. Kaufman: I accept what the hon. Gentleman says and I honour him for saying it.
Mr. Donald Anderson: Setting aside the example of the arrogance of power displayed by the Conservative party, including the stage management of the early-day motion signed by more than 100 hon. Members, will my right hon. Friend remember that the organisations to which he referred did not mention the danger of the fragmentation of the family in our society and the additional pressure of this proposal, steamrollered through by the Government, on family life ?
Mr. Kaufman: That point has, of course, been made in the many representations to us. It has also been made by the representatives of the shop workers who are worried, as they have the right to be, about the effect on their family lives if they are made to work on a Sunday. I shall deal later with the strange commitment given by the Home Secretary on this matter.
Mr. Faulds: As I have such warm regard for my right hon. Friend and do not want him to suffer any subsequent distress, may I make it clear to him that I shall not be voting for the Labour amendment tonight because it presupposes quite unacceptable subsequent legislation ?
Mr. Kaufman: My hon. Friend has every right to vote in the way that he believes appropriate, even on a three-line Whip, and I do not challenge his right—perhaps the Opposition Chief Whip would—to say what he has said. In our amendent we refer to "any legislation"; we do not refer specifically to the legislation that is heralded in the Auld report.
Conservative Members are to be whipped through the Lobby on a three-line Whip on this matter tonight — [Interruption.] —and I hope that everybody interested in this issue, whatever view they hold, will note the difference between the free vote on the Labour Benches and the whipped discipline imposed by the Government.
While there can be, and are, differing views in the House and the country about whether there should be any alterations in shopping hours, I am amazed that the Government should cause division on the subject of the

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protection of shop workers. I am sure that even shoppers who want complete deregulation do not wish to obtain their shopping convenience at the expense of the exploitation of shop workers.
For myself, I find any change completely unacceptable if it will mean even less security for a large group of workers—one in 11 of the working population—who are already among the most disadvantaged, the most exploited and the worst paid in Britain. The Home Secretary's speech showed a lack of concern for shop workers which I found staggering. He hardly referred to them, except in one particular, in a speech lasting 45 minutes. Therefore, I make it clear for myself that, should the Government defeat our amendment tonight, I shall vote against their motion in protest at their lack of concern for the interests of shop workers.
The nature of provision in shops in Britain means that it is exceptionally difficult for shop workers to win the kind of working conditions that are available to others. It is difficult for them to be organised into trade unions, and, despite the gratuitous sneers by the Under-Secretary against USDAW at Question Time earlier this month, that union has done magnificently in recruiting and seeking to protect 250,000 shop workers.
What the Government propose emphasises the need for USDAW and other shop workers' unions even more strongly. If ever there was a case for the members of USDAW to vote for a political fund, that case was made by the callous speech of the Home Secretary today.
One reason for lack of union organisation is that so many shop workers are employed only part time. In 1983, 43 per cent. of shop workers were part-timers, and most of them were women. Women form 66 per cent. of the shops' labour force and more than half of them, 39 per cent. of the total, work part time.
It is, in addition, a young work force. In 1971, 15 per cent. of males and 21 per cent. of females in the industry were less than 19 years old, and among part-timers the ages were even younger. The 1968 figures showed that in retailing, 75 per cent. of Saturday only workers were under 18, of whom 64 per cent. were girls, and 87 per cent. were under 21. Those official statistics undoubtedly understate the true position.
Current practice where there is Sunday trading, legal or illegal, shows that part-timers are predominant. Retailers opening on Sunday employ double the number of part-timers as on weekdays. Not surprisingly, these workers are often poorly qualified, much less qualified than workers in other industries. They are also inadequately trained. Money spent on training per employee in the distributive trades is less than half that in manufacturing industries.
It is scarcely surprising that shop workers are disgracefully paid. In January of this year, the statutory minimum rate was only £70–66 in the retail food and allied trades, and £71.05 in the non-food retail trades. Women in those trades were receiving little more than half women's national average earnings, and men were receiving not much more than one third of men's average earnings.
We must remember, too, that those miserable conditions have been obtained with existing protections, such as they are. Auld wants to remove some of these protections, and the rest of them are endangered by the
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Government's attitude to wages councils, which the Auld report, to do it justice, strongly recommends should be retained.
Mr. Richard Shepherd: Part of the argument is that extending trading times to include, for example, Sundays would give an opportunity for the very lowest paid to double up on their terms of income and thereby earn more.
Mr. Kaufman: I shall deal with that as I proceed.
The Auld recommendation about the abolition of the Shops Act protection for retail workers is astounding in view of the committee's terms of reference, which instructed it to have regard to the interests of employees. Legislation on shop hours in the past has been very much directed towards the protection of shop workers. The Auld report reminds us:
"Statutory restrictions on evening closing had their origin in the late nineteenth century concern to protect shop workers from exploitation".
The Shop Hours Regulation Act 1886, for example, specified maximum hours for persons under 18. That was a century ago, when legislation was governed by Victorian values. Even in 1911, the Shops Act of that year called for a half-day holiday for all shop workers. The Auld recommendations would remove that 75-year-old obligation.
The two major protections that shop workers have at present are the Shops Act 1950 and the wages councils. Neither has brought those workers conditions that are ideal or anything like ideal. However, they have meant that specific statutory protection has existed and that employers have to step carefully or face legal consequences.
The Shops Act 1950 prescribes maximum working hours and conditions of employment for young persons, and lays down regulations governing paid half days off, meal breaks and time off in lieu of Sunday working. The wages council orders prescribe minimum rates that are far from princely but are certainly much higher than they would be if wages councils did not exist. These lay down levels both for weekday and Sunday working and they influence pay in sectors of retail trading that are not covered by wages councils.
The Government's attitude to wages councils is especially deplorable. The way in which the Home Secretary brushed aside the issue of wages councils and simply said that he would listen was scandalous. The Auld report makes two specific recommendations — one is deregulation and the other is the retention of wages councils and a strengthened inspectorate. The Home Secretary—this is why his motion is framed in the way in which it is—accepts the recommendation that suits him and does not accept the other, on which, as I shall show, the first is based; without the second recommenda-tion, the exploitation of shop workers will be absolutely intolerable.
Mr. Skinner: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, on reading the mind of the Government on this matter, one can conclude that their central strategy is to depress the wages and conditions that have been fought for by unions over the years ? Their plan, in other words, is to get rid of Sunday as a special day, so that workers will finally work on Sundays as though they were Wednesdays or Thursdays, with the result that double time and time and

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a half will be a thing of the past. They are not just after shop workers. Once they have established that Sunday is the same as a weekday, additional payments, including unsocial hours money, will be abolished for millions of workers not involved in the trades with which we are concerned. That is part of the jigsaw which my right hon. Friend is piecing together. Does he agree with my conclusion?
Mr. Kaufman: In many ways it is even worse than that, as I shall demonstrate as I proceed.
The Government's attitude to wages councils is deplorable. The need for wages councils was recognised more than three quarters of a century ago. in 1909, when they were first created. In this instance we are talking about Edwardian values. The councils' progenitor was Winston Churchill, the man to whom the Prime Minister so frequently refers as Winston, as if he was one of her most intimate friends. It was Churchill who said, when the Bill creating wages councils was introduced:
"It was formerly supposed that the workings of the laws of supply and demand would naturally regulate or eliminate that evil"
of living on a less than a decent wage
"But when you have no organisation, no parity of bargaining, the good employer is undercut by the bad, and the bad employer is undercut by the worst."—[Official Report, 28 April 1909; Vol. 4, c. 388.]
Winston was right then, and he remains right now.
Mr. John Powley rose —
Mr. Kaufman: I shall proceed with my speech for a while. I have been giving way a good deal. There are 42 other right hon. and hon. Members who wish to participate in the debate.
Mr. Powley: I am one of them.
Mr. Kaufman: Wages councils are needed to establish basic minimum pay levels, rates of pay for overtime, weekends and bank holiday working and minimum holiday entitlements. Without the councils, pay rates in retailing as elsewhere would slump to intolerably low levels. Even now, earnings in the industry are slumping towards the councils' minimum levels. Ten years ago, women full-time shop workers earned on average 20 per cent. more than the wages councils' basic rate and part- timers were 16 per cent. above the basic rate. By last year, both categories of worker were only 10 per cent. above the minimum rate.
The Low Pay Unit has given dreadful examples of the exploitation of shop workers. I shall give the House just three. There is one young woman aged 22 years who is a jewellery sales assistant. She earns £54 gross for a 40-hour week. She says:
"Considering the responsibilities we have, I think our wages are disgustingly low. I personally have taken retail jewellery examinations, which was supposed to have made a difference to my wage packet. It did—£2."
Another woman, Miss S, is a manageress of a dry cleaners. She is 23 and works a 381/2-hour week, for which she receives £44·56 gross. She says:
"I've got to do the pressing, work the machine and look after the counter. My wages don't go far. I give my mum £15 keep money, bus fares £5·70 a week, life insurance £3 and that doesn't leave a lot to buy clothes or go out."
The third example is that of a man aged 20 years who earns £65 for a 47-hour week as the manager of a video hop library. His take-home pay is £49·85, of which he spends £4 on bus fares.
Mr. Powley rose —
Mr. Kaufman: In 1983, the report of the wages inspectorate to the retail food and allied trades wages council showed that a check of 10–9 per cent. of the register revealed that 20,832 workers were being underpaid and that arrears totalling £2,416,353 were assessed as due. Where complaints were investigated, underpayments were revealed at 867 of the 1,096 establishments involved. That is what was found by the wages council, yet the Government will not say that they will keep the councils.
Mr. Powley rose —
Mr. Kaufman: It is no wonder that a working party of the distributive trades EDC reported in March as follows:
"The working group believes that any reform or abolition of the retail trade wages council could have a wide-ranging effect on retail trade employment prospects. It regards as largely unproven the assertion that increases in wage rates determined by wages councils are substantially reducing the employment prospects of young people."
Mr. Powley rose —
Mr. Kaufman: I ask the hon. Gentleman to permit me to continue. I have given way on several occasions. I have a great deal more to say and I should like to see how we get on before I allow the hon. Gentleman to intervene. It is no wonder—[HON. MEMBERS: "Give way".] If hon. Members who wish to speak will not be annoyed if I give way, I shall do so.
Mr. Powley rose —
Mr. Geoffrey Dickens rose —
Mr. Kaufman: I give way to the hon. Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Powley).
Mr. Powley: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Perhaps he will tell me how I should respond to a business man who saw me in my constituency yesterday—
Mr. Cormack: On a Sunday?
Mr. Powley: Yes, he saw me yesterday because of the subject that we are debating now. He put a complaint to me and asked me what I could do for him. He contended that the actions of a wages council and not the complaints of his employees were putting him out of business and making him bankrupt. The regulations that the council will be enforcing will mean that four people who have had a job in my constituency will be forcibly made unemployed.
Mr. Kaufman: I would say that he is a pretty lousy employer. I shall quote from the evidence that is accumulated in the Cambridge study which the Department of Employment has published. Evidence is available in the report of the Select Committee on Employment, which was published last Thursday. The evidence demonstrates that the employer to whom the hon. Gentleman has referred is in a tiny minority and that the effect of wages councils in supporting the miserable minimum wages of workers in the retail industry has a minimal effect on employment. If the hon. Gentleman is worried about bankruptcies in his constituency, he should speak to the Chancellor of the Exchequer about interest rates, which are driving companies out of business.
Mr. Dickens: We are talking about our sabbath day, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary

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and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department are both Jewish. I respect that. I understand that Mohammedans in Britain can choose whether to work on their sabbath day, which is Friday. Jews in Britain can choose whether they work on their sabbath day, which is Saturday. When the proposed legislation is before the House—we are having only a little debate on the issue today — it will seek to give Christians the opportunity to decide whether they wish to open their shops and work on a Sunday. The arguments about salaries and the tear-jerking examples that we have been given by the right hon. Gentleman relate to every day of the week or whatever days shops are open.
Mr. Kaufman: I do not know whether I should have given way to the hon. Gentleman in the circumstances.
Mr. Skinner: The hon. Gentleman should get back to the dance floor.
Mr. Kaufman: What the hon. Gentleman has said would come very well out of an early play by George Bernard Shaw. He is saying that he wants to give Christian employers the right to open their shops but he does not want to give Christian workers the right to say whether they will work. That is the issue and it is that sort of paradox that appears in "Widowers' Houses" and "Major Barbara". I recommend the hon. Gentleman to read both. They are available in the Library.
I shall quote from the study by the department of applied economics at Cambridge university. Addressing itself to wages councils, it states:
"There can be no strong presumption that the retail wages councils have had an important independent employment effect … in the absence of a comprehensive system for the orderly determination of wages in retailing, the wages councils serve a useful purpose in terms of both equity and efficiency."
That survey was carried out on behalf of the Department of Employment. It is no wonder that, only four days ago, the Select Committee on Employment reported:
"Ministers did not give an estimate of the increase in the number of jobs which might be expected to result from abolition" of wages councils;
"when pressed to do so in respect of young people, they were unable to: the message was 'try it and see'."
No wonder, therefore, that the Auld report—a report that cannot be said to be over-solicitous of the interests of workers in its recommendation that all shops protection should be scrapped—deliberately went beyond its terms of reference to recommend "strongly", to use its own word, that wages councils should be retained for retailing. The report went on to recommend that there should be proper enforcement of wages council orders by an adequately staffed wages council inspectorate. We heard not a word about that from the Secretary of State.
Mr. Nicholas Lyell rose —
Mr. Kaufman: Let me just finish what I am saying.
Mr. Jonathan Sayeed: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) has been speaking about wages councils for about seven minutes. We are actually discussing the motion before the House.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I remind the House that 40 right hon. and hon. Members wish to participate in the debate.
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There have been 20 interventions during the speeches by the Front Benchers. A matter which is not a point of order merely delays the speeches of other hon. Members.
Mr. Kaufman: The hon. Member for Bristol, East (Mr. Sayeed) should be ashamed of himself for making that bogus point or order. This report, which I recommend that he read, has just two recommendations, one of which is the recommendation to retain the wages councils and strengthen the wages councils inspectorate. If the hon. Gentleman does not like that recommendation, he is telling us not only that he does not know what is in the report but that he does not care about the workers who are involved.
Mr. Sayeed rose —
Mr. Kaufman: I shall not give way. You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, have clearly shown that you believe that no more interventions should be taken; therefore, I shall proceed.
The way in which the Home Secretary brushed aside the issue of wages councils was most offensive and showed no concern whatever for the interests of shop workers. The report makes two recommendations—one is accepted in the Government motion; the other is ignored in the Government motion.
Mr. Brittan: The right hon. Gentleman obviously wrote that before listening to what I said. That is, of course, his custom. Otherwise, he would have heard me say specifically in relation to wages councils:
"The position of shop workers, vis-á-vis opening hours, will be given detailed and sympathetic consideration in the context of the consultation that is taking place".
I said that what was said in this debate would be taken into account. Moreover, although this debate is about opening hours and Sunday opening, I made it quite clear that the Government would announce their conclusion on the future of wages councils, not today but before any legislation on opening hours is brought before the House.
Mr. Kaufman: I am afraid that that simply will not wash. The Government have had the report for six months. They have had the opportunity to think about this report for six months. They have thought about the recommendation on deregulation and have made up their minds. I should have thought that six months was long enough for the Government to decide whether to accept the other recommendation. The Government do not care about the other recommendation because they do not care about shop workers.
Protection for workers in this industry becomes all the more essential when we examine the likely effects of deregulation on workers' jobs and conditions. Discussion of the effects of deregulation concentrates on Sunday trading, partly because Sunday trading understandably arouses the strong feelings and consciences of many people, and also because legal shopping hours on weekdays are already so long that major extensions are unlikely between Monday and Saturday, even if there is complete deregulation. Yet for workers, the effects of Sunday deregulation would spread over into the other six days. Unless the type of protection demanded in our amendment is provided, those effects will be painful.
Referring to the effect of deregulation on employment, the Auld report said:
"De-regulation would have an immediate effect on employment in retailing. Sunday opening would generate Sunday jobs, but the resulting fall in week-day demand would mean fewer jobs at other times. In the short term, the IFS suggests that the net effect of these two conflicting influences on

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manning requirements would be a small reduction in employment in the retail trade, possibly about 5,000 full-time equivalent jobs … In the longer term, the reduction in retailing capacity would inevitably involve a further loss of jobs. Although more people might be required in the remaining shops, the IFS predicts that the net effect would be a reduction of about a further 15,000 full-time equivalent jobs."
That is a net calculation, based on full-time equivalent jobs rather than full-time "real" jobs, as the Prime Minister describes them. The calculation in the report shows that, overall, 110,000 new Sunday jobs are expected to be created — all of them part-time or supplementary to weekday working. On the other hand, 135,000 weekday jobs are expected to be lost and many, if not most, will be full-time jobs. That is additional to the 130,000 full-time jobs that have been lost since 1979.
The real implications are shown in a statement issued by Asda which aimed to demonstrate that Sunday trading produces job increases. Asda said:
"An additional 65–90 staff are needed to operate a superstore on a Sunday. Some 75–90 per cent. of these will be specially recruited via the job centre; others will be existing full or part-time staff."
Asda is saying that most of the people it recruits for Sunday working are part-timers and that it is not creating additional employment for many of its weekday workers. Tesco expects at least 75 per cent. of its Sunday staff to be Sunday-only employees.
These expectations are emphasised by a special report that has just been issued by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which also provided the jobs assessment for the Auld report which the Home Secretary quoted with great approval. This new report was carried out for the Federation of Multiple DIY Retailers, so we cannot suppose that it was intended to be biased against the deregulation recommendation. The report stated:
"First, weekday turnover will be smaller and thus retailers will find they can economise on staff. Second, because Sunday sales will tend to reduce sales at peak times — typically weekday evenings and Saturday—retailers may find they can make more effective use of existing staff as demand during the week is more even."
That is bad enough, but even that assessment of the harmful effects of uncontrolled Sunday opening without protection is made, as the Institute for Fiscal Studies takes pains to emphasise, on the assumption that the continuation of the wages council system will ensure that double-time rates will be paid on Sundays. The institute made that estimate on the best possible assumption of the wages councils being retained and being effective. The IFS went on to say:
"left to market forces the size of the Sunday wage premium would probably fall."
The IFS calculated that, with the fall in that premium, the number of lost weekday jobs would rise to 130,000. Only the maintenance of full protection for shop workers can prevent a massive deterioration in working conditions for those workers, because the industry faces, without their protection, huge dilution by casual and part-time workers.
Dr. Keith Hampson rose
Mr. Kaufman: I shall not give way.
Less full-time working means worse pay and lack of statutory protection in key areas, such as employment protection, redundancy payments and maternity rights. They are especially important in an industry with so many women workers. More casualisation and part-time working means not only less protection for such workers but pressure on full-time workers. Full-time workers will
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face the evident danger of replacement by part-timers if they cause too much of a fuss over such embellishments as halfway decent pay, let alone holiday and other rights. The Thatcherite dream will become the shop workers' nightmare. That is in an industry in which workers are already inadequately protected. The Auld report itself states that shop workers
"lack the trades union protection enjoyed by most other workers."
In the main, shop workers have to fend for themselves on the subject of working hours and conditions. Yet what hope does the Auld report offer those workers in the absence of statutory protection, including the protection that they themselves say should be removed by the total repeal of Shops Act protection? The report says:
"where an employee might be prejudiced by a requirement to work on Sundays or late at night, so that refusal to do so would lead to dismissal, it might be that the provisions governing unfair dismissal in the Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act 1978 would in certain cases provide a safeguard.
"Might be … certain cases" that will not do. That is not protection. That is optimistic speculation.
Mr. Lyell: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Kaufman: No.
The Employment Protection Act, 1975 even if relevant and applicable, does not provide for reinstatement even if an action is successful. Employers could apply a whole range of pressures short of dismissal. It is no good Ministers saying that other workers are involved in Sunday working without dire consequences because the report dismisses that argument:
"it is notable that a substantial proportion of regular Sunday employment occurs in industries, such as the railways and health service, with a high degree of unionisation and relatively traditional labour practices. Retailing, by contrast, is characterised by less strong unions and exceptional flexibility in the use of labour."
Therefore, for all of us in the Labour party, including my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), whatever attitude may be taken on deregulation and late and Sunday opening—
Mr. Lyell: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. William Cash: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Kaufman: —protection of the workers— [HON. MEMBERS: "Give way."] — protection of the workers becomes a sticking point on which we are implacable.
We insist that any legislation must include specific protection for workers. Many of the private Members' Bills that have been introduced on this subject deliberately included some form of protection such as those introduced by the hon. Members for Chelsea o(Mr. Scott), for Cambridgeshire, North-East (Mr. Freud) and for Clwyd, North-West (Sir A. Meyer), as well as several others.
I address this remark to the Secretary of State in response to his reply to the intervention of the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) about protection of workers on Sunday. We do not regard as satisfactory his limited and mingy commitment that established workers will be protected. The Secretary of State, in response to an intervention by the hon. Member for Surrey, North-West (Mr. Grylls), commended the legislation in the commonwealth of Massachusetts. The commonwealth of Massachusetts legislated on Sunday trading in 1983, and included this provision, that no employee—not "no established employee"—

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"shall be required to perform such [Sunday] work, and refusal to work for any retail establishment on Sunday shall not be grounds for discrimination, dismissal, discharge, reduction in hours, or any other penalty."
That is what they have in Massachusetts, and that is what we demand in the Bill. Nothing else will do. [HON. MEMBERS: "What Bill?"] The Bill is coming. The Government say that they are going to legislate.
We demand that all Shops Act protections required by the industry's unions should be retained except where other statutes unequivocally and indubitably provide such protection. Those include half holidays, meal times, refreshment breaks, the number of Sundays to be worked and time off in lieu of Sunday working. We insist on full Shops Act protection for young people.
Mr. Cash: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Kaufman: The report is extremely unsatisfactory on safeguards for young workers. It says that gaps not at present covered by current legislation could be filled by amendments to other statutes. "Could be" is not good enough. We demand an assurance that such gaps will be filled. Above all, we demand that full wages council protection for shop workers be retained. Heaven knows, such protection is barely adequate as it is. We insist on the full retention of the wages council system, and for young people, too.
The Government's consultative paper makes absurd and dangerous statements about the effect of wages council protection on the employment of young people. Those statements are rejected by the Select Committee of this House, by the Cambridge study and by the National Economic Development Council working party. We demand full wages council protection for young people both in regard to minimum rates and age coverage.
The British public are decent, caring people. Many of them may wish for wider shopping opportunities, but none of them would want to enjoy those opportunities at the expense of underpaid, overworked and exploited employees, including women and teenage girls. We are amazed that the Government cannot accept our simple and uncontroversial amendment. We shall be speaking not only for shop workers but for the whole country when we vote for our amendment tonight.
5.35 pm
Sir Ian Gilmour: The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) went on with his prepared text in utter disregard of what my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary said. The right hon. Gentleman's language would have been inappropriate in any event. He talked about my right hon. and learned Friend's callous attitude to shop workers when in fact he gave the undertaking to consider carefully the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill). That was totally inappropriate. The right hon. Gentleman should have amended his speech drastically.
The right hon. Gentleman began his speech with a series of noisy questions asking whether what my right hon. and learned Friend said about the law being unenforceable meant that we should not have a law against robbery. That was a total misconception of the position. There is an obvious distinction, of which the right hon. Gentleman must be aware—
Mr. Skinner: Is this a rebel I see before me?
Sir Ian Gilmour: I supported the Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney) because I thought that it was sensible. No doubt the hon. Gentleman opposes it for the same reason. That would be characteristic.
There is a distinction between laws with which it is often difficult to catch the offender and laws which are so illogical and thus so riddled with abuses, inconsistencies and anomalies that no Government or local authority can enforce them. The right hon. Member for Gorton must be fully aware of that distinction. That is the key point.
I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman is in favour of Sunday opening. He made an extremely long speech, which was interesting in many ways. The most interesting part was that he did not state where he stood on the main issue. Perhaps at some stage later in the debate we shall hear from the Opposition what their attitude is.
The key point is that we are being asked to continue using the criminal law to enforce a law that nobody in his right mind thinks can go on being enforced. I fully respect the sabbatarians on both sides of the House, and those who wish to continue the traditional English Sunday, whatever exactly that may mean—
Mr. Cormack: Rather like the traditional Tory.
Sir Ian Gilmour: No, that is not so. The Tory party was against making Sunday a miserable affair. That was very much a Roundhead whim. Although sabbatarianism has quite a long history, it is essentially a Victorian idea. Most of our legislation dates from Queen Victoria. In fact, Karl Marx said that the chief sufferers from the sabbatarian legislation were the working classes. It is paradoxical that now their alleged representatives are very much against the amelioration of these laws. I am not an admirer of Victorian values, and I am grateful that, in this respect at least, the Government are departing from them; although it is fair to say that Queen Victoria was not a sabbatarian, and was opposed to the sabbatarianism of those days. [Interruption.] Luckily I cannot hear the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). He is raucous but inaudible.
In the earlier debate, the Government were asked to hold an inquiry and not to act before it had reported. In general, that is a sensible procedure. The Government have now done exactly what was asked. The findings of the inquiry are unequivocal, and the Government now have no alternative but to legislate. I agree with both parts of the Auld report. I believe that it is important that, unless some other safeguards can be found, wages councils should be preserved. I am not opposed to the reform of wages councils, but I believe that they need to be preserved in this case.
My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State was right in 1983—I supported him then—and I believe that the Government are right now.
5.41 pm
Mr. A. J. Beith: There has been an exchange about the line taken by the Under-Secretary in an earlier debate. I believe that this is a matter on which the individual conscience is of supreme importance. It is a matter on which I speak for myself, although I believe that my hon. Friends will agree with almost all that I say, and that they all agree with me when I say that, in any legislative change, the shop worker

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should be protected. My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, North-East (Mr. Freud) took that view when he introduced his legislation, the protection offered in which was far more stringent than the measly concession offered by the Home Secretary today.
On 4 February 1983, when replying to some issues that I had raised, the Under-Secretary said:
"These fears are held in many parts of the House and I agree that they are an important factor. That is why the Government adhere to the view, which successive Governments have adhered to, that the decision must be for the individual conscience of hon. Members." — [Official Report, 4 February 1983; Vol. 36, c. 557.]
In referring to "successive Governments" the hon. Gentleman could not have been speaking solely about the legislation then being discussed. I do not believe that that was what was in his mind. I believe that the hon. Gentleman has now been asked to stand his own words on their head. He should not accede to the pressure to do so. He should make it clear that individual conscience should have free rein, not only in today's debate but in the debates on the details of legislation which, I suspect, will occupy us for many long weeks in some future Session.
The right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour) referred to the Auld committee as though it were a body of impeccable impartiality and breadth of background knowledge. That is far from the case. Committees set up by Governments are normally of two kinds. Some are intended to debate an issue at length—preferably until after the next general election. Others are intended to secure a certain verdict, and to do so as quickly as possible. The committee just appointed by the Home Secretary to consider advertising on BBC television—the membership was announced on Friday—falls into the former category. Its members range from the Home Secretary's brother to people who have spent most of their working lives in the BBC. It represents a wide range of opinion and its debates will no doubt be lengthy.
The Auld committee has no such breadth. No one could say that the members of the committee represent the full range of opinion on the issue. I can find among the members no one who holds the traditional view of the place of Sunday in our society and in the Christian religion.
Mr. Mellor: The hon. Gentleman is kicking the referee because he does not like his ruling. Not a single word of criticism was advanced about the composition of the committee until it made its report. What right does the hon. Gentleman have to call into question the integrity of the three members who produced the report in good conscience? Further, is the hon. Gentleman aware that there were also six assessors, at least three of whom represented views antipathetic to the final result of the inquiry? Not one of them has called into question the good faith of the inquiry process. Why is the hon. Gentleman doing so?
Mr. Beith: I do not call into question the good faith of those conducting the inquiry. I question whether they represented the range of views on this issue. They did not.
If the Minister consults his files, he will find there some correspondence from me on certain aspects of the committee's initial actions, which immediately caused me to doubt the breadth of opinion that it represented. The Minister sees fit to ignore that correspondence, but I shall refer to it.
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It is possible that the members of the committee initially had no views at all. However, they certainly did not start with a representative breadth of opinion on the subject such as can be found in the committee considering advertising on the BBC, which was clearly set up en the basis that it should contain a breadth of views. I believe that the reason for the difference is that the Government wanted a certain result from the Auld committee whereas they do not want the other committee to produce a result for some time.
Immediately the Auld committee started work, there was a straw in the wind. I wrote to the Minister about it. The committee quite properly placed advertisements in newspapers seeking evidence from people holding different views. However, it placed the advertisements exclusively in Sunday newspapers. The committee had embarked on its task with no grasp of the fact that a significant minority of people, on religious grounds, do not read Sunday newspapers.
The Minister has referred to the assessors. The assessors had no part in writing the report, and cannot be held responsible for it. Their position was quite clear. They were to provide factual evidence on the areas about which they knew.
No one reading the article by Miss Frances Cairncross in The Times today could come to any conclusion other than that she is strongly in favour of Sunday opening on a slightly more widespread scale than was envisaged even in the report. She is fully entitled to hold those views, but they give a flavour of the basis of the report.
It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the report is somewhat disdainful of the Christian religion and attaches far too little weight to the views of those who, because of their Christian convictions or on other grounds, do not wish to work on Sundays.
The most balanced criticism of the report was produced by the British Council of Churches and the Free Church Federal Council. The critique states:
"The Auld report appears to have been written to sustain the case for abolishing all regulation of shop opening hours. That part of the case which the churches, with others, made on behalf of shop-workers and their families is accepted, but rather than abandon the conclusion that there should be no regulation of hours the Committee makes the proposal for a Wages Council, which it must know the Government is unlikely to accept … There is a serious conflict between the evidence they present and the conclusion they reach. What appears to be a closely argued case is a much more tendentious document. Market forces, it seems, are now to determine every aspect of our life in community."
Dr. Hampson: I shall not take up the theoretical arguments. There are many examples of Sunday opening around the world, and the right hon. Gentleman lives next to the Scottish example. How does he deal with the fact that only 16 per cent. of Scottish shops open on Sundays and that 98 per cent. of Scots say that they are not inconvenienced by Sunday trading? What is the evidence that the Scots are any less religious as a result of Sunday opening?
Mr. Beith: I am close enough to Scotland to know that the situation there is very different. The pressures to bring about more Sunday trading are far less intense in Scotland than in much of the United Kingdom, and many people in the retail trade in Scotland do not want to see much Sunday trading. Secondly, I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not

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prefer the social pressures against Sunday trading that operate in some parts of Scotland to a proper regulation of the matter by law.
In seeking to implement the Auld recommendation of complete deregulation without the other recommedation about retaining a wages council, the Government are taking no account of the fact that Sunday is, and has long been, regarded by many people as different from any other day of the week. The moulding and shaping effect of the Christian religion in our society should not simply be thrown aside.
The factors have special significance in some parts of the country, which the Government have not mentioned. In Wales, for example, legislation requires referendums on the opening hours of public houses. The constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Howells) can vote not to have public houses open on Sundays, and did so, but they will have no control over Sunday trading, although these things have a special place in their hearts. If people discover that we have irrevocably changed the character of Sunday, they will be critical of a House of Commons which did this with such carelessness.
It is crucial to protect shop workers from the pressures to work on Sunday when they do not wish to on religious grounds or because they are prepared to work five or six days but want Sunday with their family. When my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, North-East, with whom I disagree on the issue, introduced proposals considerably to deregulate Sunday trading he nevertheless went to great lengths to protect shop workers. His proposals included limiting overtime payments and therefore the extent to which workers can be bribed to work on Sunday.
Some Conservative Members suggested that we should welcome deregulation because shop workers can get a decent living wage only by working double time on Sundays, and that deregulation offers a wonderful opportunity to extend an otherwise small wage. An alarming range of pressures on shop workers to work on Sundays in the event of complete deregulation would include their desire to augment a low income and the pressure to keep a job. There would also be pressure on people wanting to get a job, as they are likely to be asked to fill in an application form declaring whether they have any objections to working on any day of the week. I take issue with the Home Secretary and his vaunted concession in this regard. I was hopeful when he said that he wanted to provide for shop workers who had a conscientious objection to working on Sunday. However, he talked of established shop workers. It is a dated provision for people now working in the retail trade. It is like trying to buy shares in the Trustee Savings Bank—only people who had an account last year will have priority in buying them. Only people who were employed in the retail trade before the proposed legislation is brought in are to have any protection. As that group of people dies out, fewer will be protected, and anyone who wants to apply for a job will be asked whether he is prepared to work on Sunday. If an applicant has any reservations, or a statement of his religious activities arouses any doubt, he will be passed over in favour of someone else. Without protection, we shall eventually have economic persecution of people who persist in their belief that they should not work on Sunday.
Mr. Nicholas Fairbairn: On the principle of Sunday, how does the hon. Gentleman, who represents Berwick which, but for an odd mistake, is part of Scotland, defend the sanctity of Sunday from shopping when, since 1950, when attitudes were much more rigorous, the Scots, with all the Free Presbyterians and the Free Church, have had no objection to Sunday trading? Does he not realise that his constituents cross the border on Sundays to go shopping?
Mr. Beith: There are massive objections to Sunday trading in many parts of Scotland. No doubt the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart) will voice some of them. Some of the social pressures are less desirable than a general framework of law under which people know what they are entitled to do and are free to do it.
The Home Secretary's concessions to shop workers are not good enough. The consequences of deregulation for those who feel strongly about working on Sundays will be loss of pay, loss of job or an inability to get one, unless there is protection. Small shopkeepers will be put under enormous pressure. Hon. Members have received extensive representations from the meat trade, for example, which believes that the Government, who claim to be sympathetic towards small businesses, will put unreasonable pressure on many members of it.
We should also consider people who live near shopping centres and who rely on Sunday for peace and an opportunity to sit in their garden without the constant slamming of car doors and the noise of traffic coming and going. It is not enough to say that they should not live there. If people are to live in city centres, it is reasonable to assume that there should be some difference in the pattern of life between weekdays and Sundays. Moreover, many tourists like to go around normally busy areas such as the City of London and other town centres when it is quiet.
There are wider and more general disadvantages of deregulation which have been argued in the Institute for Fiscal Studies report, such as the potential loss of jobs and of trade and an effect on prices. To put it at its lowest, it has not been argued that general economic benefits will follow.
The Government seem to be able to contemplate only deregulation or nothing but there are many choices. I favour revising the Shops Acts to clarify the categories of shop which are allowed to open on Sunday and to define them so as to minimise the difficulties that I have described. The Government seem to have rejected that possibility out of hand, as did the Auld report. There are various compromises. The Home Secretary mentioned Massachusetts and the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) said that the Massachusetts experiment involved specific protection for shop workers: it is also confined to Sunday afternoons. Most other countries which have made such changes have limited the trading to some extent.
We shall also have to consider planning control. Local authorities must be allowed to exercise some planning powers because, if there is deregulated Sunday trading, arguments about the siting of shops will be much more important to objectors when the shops remain open seven days a week.
The Government must protect shop workers, Their job security, the basis on which they are paid — that involves retaining wages councils — and enabling

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applicants for jobs or workers to contend that they have been unfairly discriminated against for objecting to work on Sundays. However many regulations we build in, workers will still be discriminated against in practice if we deregulate generally.
I say to my hon. Friends that the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney) waved the flag of liberty and liberalism in support of his private Member's Bill on deregulation. He should remember that John Stuart Mill said that, when defining the right of the individual, we must always have regard to the extent to which it infringes on the liberties of others. Shop workers and other people affected by Sunday trading are among those others. I say to the Labour party that its amendment improves the motion, but does not go to the heart of the matter.
I say to Conservatives that if the Government accept the Auld report without providing permanent protection for Sunday, they will have signalled themselves as being firmly on the side of Mammon rather than of God, and of substituting the religion of the market place for the religion that has guided and sustained this nation for more than 1,000 years. The Government might win the day on this occasion, but when they get to the details of the Bill, I hope that they will find that many Conservative Members are no more willing than I am to see that happen.
5.59 pm
Sir John Wells: Tomorrow is the opening of the Chelsea flower show, which is the greatest flower show in the world. The Chelsea flower show is the showplace of nurserymen from this country and overseas, and specialist plants are presented. However, the man and woman in the street buy their plants from garden centres, which are the most important phenomenon in the leisure industry today.
The do-it-yourself movement is also of fundamental importance in the shopping pattern of families. The Government have got their project wrong. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary said that there had to be change because of garden centres, and do-it-yourself and tourist shops. But surely we merely need to alter the planning law to make a new planning classification because local authorities do not know what a garden centre is. They cannot decide whether it is a farm shop, a shop or farm land. Under planning laws and regulations, garden centres are neither one nor the other. Do-it-yourself shops are called warehouses. Are they warehouses or shops? That area is fraught in many respects.
If the Government had tackled the problem from the other way on, and had introduced new planning classifications for garden centres, do-it-yourself shops and, to a lesser extent, tourist shops, Sunday trading could have been easily permitted in those three areas.
A fourth category, which is also of great importance to the tourist trade, is exhibitions that stay open on Sunday. I began my speech by mentioning the Chelsea flower show, but there are many other exhibitions, such as the Ideal Home exhibition, at which goods are sold and which stay open on Sunday. That is also a fraught area because, provided the shopper buys a souvenir and carries it away in a souvenir bag, he is not technically breaking the law. That is absurd.
Although I welcome the Government's intentions to change the law in those four limited respects, they have got it wrong because they are trying to change the law for more than those four areas
6.2 pm
Mr. Thomas Torney: I must declare an interest in that I am sponsored by the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, as many hon. Members know. It is obvious from the debate and the many interventions that the crux of the matter is the Sunday trading argument. I subscribe to the consensus that there is a need to reform the Shops Act 1950. I accept that it generates some curious anomalies, but we do not need complete abolition of the Act to minimise those anomalies.
The abolitionist case is unconvincing, and potentially highly expensive and disruptive. The Auld committee report says a great deal about the dangers to shop workers and the environment and, indeed, much of the report is correct. Despite that, it reaches the wrong conclusions. I am amazed that the best a Government committee can offer is to say, "It is all too difficult. We must abandon all attempts at regulation."
The proposal that small shops and self-employed retailers should be allowed to open is dismissed summarily by the committee, despite the fact that changing the law in that respect would legitimise much of what now takes place without causing danger to shop workers' conditions, upheaval in the high street, or interference with the traditional Sunday and the Christian belief in the sabbath. That may have proved too difficult, or perhaps too troublesome, for the Auld committee to deal with, but parliamentary draftsmen have much more complicated measures to deal with than this, and would find it a doddle to draft suitable changes in the law to implement such a proposal.
It is said that there is a need for shops to open on Sundays, but we should consider the existing position. Most shops are open by 9 am—some food stores open even earlier—and in most cases they do not close until 6 pm. They are open from Mondays to Saturdays, arid the majority of supermarkets and multiple stores have two and sometimes three late nights every week when they stay open until 7 pm, 8 pm or even later.
Some people, and even some hon. Members, talk about not being able to shop and say that their only free time is on Sunday. Yet I have never heard of anyone who has starved or gone short of food because shops are not open. Nor have I heard of a person being short of something to wear or being without apparel because shops are not open. In the Third world and the north of England, which I represent, some people are short of those things because of insufficient money and mass unemployment, but never because the shops are not open.
The mass of our working population work from 8 or 8.30 am to 5 or 5.30 pm for five days only. Those people have all day Saturday to shop and can easily shop on late opening nights with their families, if they wish.
The arguments of the abolitionists are ludicrous. There is no need for shops to open on Sundays. I accept that there is a desire among some people to go shopping when the whim suits them. Others are disorganised and cannot remember to prepare for the times when shops are closed or cannot even remember when the shops are closed or what time of day it is. Perhaps we should open shops on Christmas day and Boxing day in case someone forgets the stuffing for the turkey or even the turkey itself, or that a new party dress is required. Hon. Members may think that that sounds ludicrous, but those are precisely the type of

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people to whom the Government are pandering with the Bill. The Government have confused the meaning of "need" with the meaning of "desire" or "whim".
Over the years, shop workers have been a disadvantaged section of the working population —unsocial hours and low pay have been their lot. I shall not deal with this subject for long because my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) made an admirable speech in which he dealt with many of the subjects that worry me. As a young man, I worked in a shop. I can well remember my employer sending me along the high street to see whether our competitors were closing, before he would allow me to start closing. That is the shape of things to come. Such is the battle of the high street today that, when some shops open, all must follow. Competition is so intense that no trader can afford to be closed and therefore to lose business to a competitor who is open.
Only so much trade can be achieved overall. To divide it seven ways instead of five or six ways would not mean greater trade for everyone. The higher costs of lighting, cleaning, wages and even rates would mean greater overheads. There is only one way in which a store can recoup such additional costs and that is from the consumer. Prices would undoubtedly rise, despite what the Home Secretary said.
The Government have in the past advocated helping small businesses, yet Sunday trading would cripple the small corner shops. They already suffer from intense competition from supermarkets that have all the modern techniques and the bulk-buying facilities that enable them to sell goods more cheaply. The corner shop does considerable business, by its standards, on a Sunday. If superstores open on Sundays it would lose most of this business and many corner shops and small businesses would disappear—[Laughter.] Hon. Members do not like my modern, efficient way of tackling the debate by using a computer print-out.
The average high street would eventually become almost as busy on Sundays as it is on Saturdays, with all the noise and bustle associated with a busy shopping area. Other services would be required, such as policing, street cleaning, bus services as on a normal weekday, and the full cover of emergency services. In addition to shop workers, this would mean more people working on a Sunday. All those people would have to be paid, thus causing greater burdens on rates and taxes. Ultimately, we would have to pay for those services.
Sunday as we have known it for generations would be gone. Gone would be the peace. Gone would be the family Sunday, because mother or father may be working. Gone would be the opportunity for many to practice the freedom of religious worship. Sunday would become far less a sabbath day than it is now.
The Auld report calls for—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman will have to stop speaking in half a minute.
Mr. Torney: I have very little to go, Mr. Speaker.
The Auld report calls for protection for shop workers. It advocates the retention of the wages councils. The committee must have known that the Government intend to abolish the wages councils because they have published their intention repeatedly over a long period. After all this,
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the conclusion of the committee was the complete abolition of the Shops Act 1950, which means complete abolition of any protection the shop worker may have.
Wages councils were formed to protect the low paid and those least organised in trade unions. They were meant to put a bottom to wages paid in industries where exploitation was rife. Without that base, shop workers will again be seriously exploited. They will have little choice in refusing to work on Sundays if their employers demand it, because they know that, from the ranks of the 4 million unemployed, people will be found to do their jobs—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must say farewell to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. David Crouch: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for a computer to make copious use of an hon. Member?
Mr. Speaker: Computer or not, the hon. Gentleman speaks from great personal experience.
6.13 pm
Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: I welcome the opportunity to debate the Auld report and all its implications. First, I must declare two interests. I am on the main board of Boots, one of the largest retailers in the country, and I am a former Minister for Consumer Affairs.
Mr. Foulkes: An ordinary housewife.
Mrs. Oppenheim: I have not heard much about consumers from Labour Members.
Boots does not advocate Sunday trading, for several reasons, but if the law is changed, and if that is what its customers want, it will open. However, I advocate the implementation of the proposals in the report, subject to adequate qualifications and safeguards.
Five major considerations should be borne in mind when discussing Sunday opening: consumers, traders, those who must work on Sunday, the religious implications, and the effectiveness of the current legislation. Before I discuss those categories in detail, I should emphasise that I believe that we shall do no service to any of them if we try to exaggerate either the advantages or the disadvantages of the proposals before us. There is an obvious temptation to do so, but I shall try to resist it.
No right hon. or hon. Member could seriously defend the current legislation. The House will agree that such a law, which is riddled with anomalies, frequently flouted and held in contempt by so many, brings the framework of British law into disrepute. The anomalies in the law are so bizarre and they have been mentioned often, that I shall not mention them again.
Perhaps worse than the anomalies themselves are the conditions that they have created, whereby normally law-abiding shopkeepers regularly break the criminal law by selling to their customers on Sundays items from the banned category. No policman will walk into a shop and arrest the shopkeeper for selling a can of baked beans to a customer who wants it on a Sunday. What is even worse is that many small and medium-sized shops, especially in the do-it-yourself category, cannot open on Sundays because they cannot afford the fines, while their larger competitors can open on Sundays and sometimes flout the law because they can afford the fines. It is clear that the law operates unfairly and unenforceably.
The Auld report concludes, I believe correctly, that reform is not practical and would lead to greater

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confusion, and that, therefore, abolition is necessary. Such a proposal would leave traders free to choose whether to trade on Sundays, and would leave consumers free to choose whether to shop on Sundays. No element of compulsion is involved. Some people, especially Labour Members, dispute whether that freedom will apply in practice across the board, and whether it will be beneficial or disadvantageous. Others are understandably worried on religious grounds. I hope that I can deal even-handedly with those issues.
Since the 1950 Act, nearly 1 million more women are at work. Family activities have widened, and shops have become bigger. Many shops have moved from city centres to the edges of towns. For many families, Sunday is a day of rest and of family activity, so I have no doubt that, for the majority of consumers, the abolition of the Shops Act 1950 and the freedom to choose whether to shop on Sundays would be beneficial from the point of view of convenience and for another important reason: it will reinforce consumer power and stimulate competition in some, but not all, sectors of the market place.
Such a change would not greatly affect the character of the traditional Sunday, because, except in special cases, most households will not choose to do their major weekly household shopping on Sundays. They will continue to use their new freedom to carry out top-up food shopping at their local shops for convenience. They will not drive in their cars or take public transport to out-of-town or in-town centres to do minor top-up shopping. On the contrary, the corner shop will keep its trade and will have the added advantage of being able to offer its customer a wider range of goods on a fair, legal basis.
Those who have not chosen to take public transport, or to get into their cars, or who do not wish to shop on Sundays, will have the convenience of knowing that many necessities that they may have run out of in the home, garden or in do-it-yourself activities are available to them if they are willing to go out and get them. The real surge in Sunday shopping will be felt in the edge-of-town shops selling furniture, major domestic appliances, and do-it-yourself goods, and in garden centres.
The growth will arise in family shopping involving expensve purchases, in which the views of the whole family can be shared. However, these purchases will not take place every week and they will have repercussions elsewhere in the market place. Above all, I do not believe that a change in the Sunday opening laws will result in people flocking to town centres to do their shopping, or that many town centre shops will open on Sundays. I have observed Sunday opening in several states in the United States. The overall effects are minimal but variable, just as they would be in this country, according to different circumstances.
Mr. John Butterfill: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mrs. Oppenheim: I regret that I cannot give way to my hon. Friend. I must get on with my speech.
For example, most of the major shops and department stores in the city centres of California do not open, but on the edge of the cities shopping malls and the larger drug stores open. In the centre of Chicago, where there has been major investment in a city centre mall, most of the shops open and do very well. Therefore, no precise comparisons can be made. The same variations will apply here, as they
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already do on Saturdays. One only has to walk around the west end of London on Saturdays to see that some department stores are open all day while others are open for half a day, and some shops do not open. They have gauged their market. They know what their viability niche is. I am of course not referring to those shops winch do not open on Saturdays for religious reasons.
I turn now to the effects upon traders of Sunday opening. The benefits and disadvantages for traders are not nearly so clear as they are for customers. Many traders, especially in the categories I have mentioned, will benefit, others will do so only marginally and some will lose. The corner shops will not lose. They are among the marginal gainers. Some shops, in particular the city centre multiple retailers, will have to open on seven days a week, but their turnover will be no higher than it is when trading on six days a week. They will have to open, because if they do not some of their customers will buy elsewhere on Sunday the goods that otherwise they would have bought from them during the week. This is a genuine concern of the Retail Consortium which cannot be dismissed. However, we should not allow this genuine objection to outweigh the benefits that Sunday opening would bring to the majority, nor should we exaggerate the significance of the increased costs. If local authority rates were to be kept lower all over the country it would wipe out any disadvantage for most of the major retailers.
As for the effects of Sunday opening upon those who work in shops and their future interests, I firmly believe that those interests must be protected, but not 5y wages councils, as the report recommends. Their protection should be enshrined in appropriate legislation and should be fair and equitable. It is only right and fair that those who have a conscientious objection to working on Sundays, or those who, for personal or family reasons, do not wish to work on Sundays should not be forced to do so. Their existing or potential jobs should not be endangered as a result. That is a fundamental prerequisite to any change in the law which should be enshrined in the law itself. On the other hand, traders, especially those whose costs will increase, should not be asked to pay part-time Sunday-only workers for eight hours when they work only two. That would be inequitable, would add to costs and would undermine the commercial viability of opening on Sunday.
The benefits of abolition will be more marginal than some people believe. Nevertheless, they will be significant. The disadvantages will be a good deal less than some prophets of doom foretell. I respect the views of those with strong religious convictions, but overriding everything is the need to get rid of a bad law and to uphold the great principles of fairness and freedom.
6.23 pm
Mr. Donald Stewart: The hon. Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Oppenheim) ended her speech by saying that we need to get rid of a bad law. The Act to which the Auld report refers has been on the statute book since 1950. If it had been so bad as the hon. Lady and certain other hon. Members have maintained, it is odd that neither of the two main parties that have formed Administrations during the last 35 years have done anything to get rid of it. Such attempts as have been made were left to private Members.
The motion standing in the name of the Prime Minister is one with which I disagree entirely. I regret that the

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Conservative party, which was regarded as the great bastion of religion in this nation, has accepted the recommendations of the Auld report. The amendment which stands in the name of the Leader of the Opposition is not much better. Although it regards legislation as desirable and essential, it carefully avoids the central issue and is almost as bad as the motion itself.
When he introduced the debate the Home Secretary said that he was a Minister for law and order. My forecast is that when the legislation eventually reaches the statute book there will be further disruption of law and order because of what will happen to the traditional observance of Sunday in this country. I find it offensive that those who would not work on Sundays, apart from washing their cars or working in their gardens, find it acceptable that others should work on Sundays as well as on the other days of the week. We are told that we must have Sunday trading for the benefit of tourists. Many tourists come from countries where they do not enjoy such facilities. If they come from countries which do not have Sunday trading, they observe what happens in this country. Do we have to alter what has been the tradition for generations just to suit tourists who may come here for only three weeks once in every 10 years? That is a ridiculous argument.
The consumer interest has been referred to on many occasions in this debate. Consumers are not demanding that shops should be open on Sunday. I challenge hon. Members to say whether their mail bags are full of letters from people who complain that they cannot buy goods on Sunday. No hon. Member can say that. There is no basis for that assertion.
Mr. Fairbairn: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Stewart: No, I shall not give way, because of the time limit on speeches. I am restricted to 10 minutes.
I do not see the mail bag of every hon. Member, but while I have been a Member of Parliament I have received no request that shops should be open on Sunday. I do not believe that such a demand exists. The demand comes from Conservative Members. Non-religious bodies, such as the Trades Union Council, the Scottish Trades Union Council and the unions, are greatly opposed to Sunday trading. The British Council of Churches has also made its view clear on that point. The Auld report recommends that the regulation of shop hours should be abolished. This is a twin recommendation. Nobody who wished to implement it would implement one part of the recommendation without the other.
Mr. Fairbairn: Why on earth is the right hon. Gentleman speaking against the abolition of Sunday opening when the Shops Act 1950 specifically exempted Scotland from clauses 32 to 52? There has been Sunday opening in Scotland ever since 1950, but the right hon. Gentleman has never included in his manifesto the promise that the law would be changed.
Mr. Stewart: The hon. and learned Gentleman knows as well as I that when he goes through Scottish towns on Sunday he never sees shops open in the main street. Other restraints are placed upon Sunday opening in Scotland, apart from what might be on the statute book.
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The recommendation is in two parts, which have to be considered together. In addition to the abolition of shop hours regulation, the Auld committee also said:
"we strongly urge the retention for retail workers of the machinery of the wages councils".
The one cannot be implemented without the other. All hon. Members know about the Government's attitude towards wages councils. I do not support the deregulation of shop hours. Many people object to the sweeping changes urged by the report, but agree that the 1950 Act is out of date in some ways and contains some anomalies. Some reform is needed, but there is no proven case for Sunday opening or for late-night opening.
It is all very well to talk about a shop owner's freedom of choice about when he should open. but if some in a trade decide to open late at night or on Sundays, most—not all—will have to follow. If each retailer is to maintain his share of the market and his credibility with his customers, he will be virtually forced to stay open as long and as late as the others. Deregulated trading hours will inevitably mean extended trading hours, which will result in increased costs to traders, which will be passed on to the consumers about whose interests we have heard so much.
The lack of Sunday trading in Scotland is the result of respect for the fourth commandment. There is a need for one day a week to be different and to be set aside for relaxation, rest and worship. The Church of England has been called the Conservative party at prayer, but if Conservative Members are whipped on the motion, the Church of England will be shutting up shop.
I do not believe that we are any longer a Christian society. It seems more like a pagan society. If the motion is passed, and is followed by legislation, the effects on the individual, the family and the nation will be disastrous.
6.31 pm
Mr. John Butterfill: My main worry has concerned the position of existing workers in the retail trade who, for religious reasons or on conscience grounds, might not wish to be forced to work on Sunday and might fear that they would be discriminated against.
Therefore, I was particularly pleased to hear my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary say that the only matter on which he disagreed with the Auld report was the protection of workers in the retail trade [HON. MEMBERS: "Existing workers."] Yes, that is exactly what my right hon. and learned Friend said. He was referring to paragraph 279 of the report:
"We explained in Chapter Four why we believe that existing shop employees might deserve greater protection against having to work on Sundays or late at night than those who enter the trade in the future, knowing of the likely requirements if our recommendations were to be adopted. Some of those now employed in shops would have religious objections to working on Sundays, and we believe that such objections deserve particular respect. Others might be equally unwilling to work on Sundays or late at night because of family or other commitments, and we believe that it would be wrong if they were forced to choose between such commitments and keeping their jobs."
I agree with that and I do not understand why the Auld committee adopted the attitude shown in the next two paragraphs. It refers to the law passed in Massachusetts in 1983:
"No employee … shall be required to perform such [Sunday] work, and refusal to work for any retail establishment on Sunday shall not be grounds for discrimination, dismissal. discharge, reduction in hours, or any other penalty."

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I hope that the Home Secretary will use that law as a model for the Government's legislation. It seems to be eminently sensible. However, the Auld report said that, because the Massachusetts law had not been tested, it did not know how useful it had been. That was an extraordinary statement, because if the law has not been tested, that surely means that it has worked well and that there has been no need to test it.
Mr. John Prescott: Read the next bit.
Mr. Butterfill: I will read the bits that I want to read, but I do not think that the hon. Gentleman will disagree with those bits. The committee quotes in paragraph 281 the evidence given by the Bishop of St. Germans who said that he did not think that legislation on the lines of the Massachusetts law would work here. On the basis of the evidence of one bishop of the Church of England, who ought to be ashamed of himself, the committee says that it does not think that it would be a good idea to put such protection into our law. I am glad that my right hon. and learned Friend has chosen to ignore that section of the report and I look forward with interest to seeing the Bill that is to be produced.
There are many other matters about which I am unhappy and on which I and, I am sure, other hon. Members will require much reassurance when a Bill is brought before us. However, on the vital question of the protection of workers, I thank the Home Secretary for his concession on the most important point that we should be discussing.
6.36 pm
Mr. Barry Sheerman: I immediately declare an interest as vice-chairman of the co-operative group in the House and as an hon. Member sponsored by the co-operative movement. I hope that that sets a good example to all hon. Members in declaring their interests.
We must put the debate on Sunday trading into context. I do not believe that it is a debate merely about liberalising trade on Sunday. One needs to consider the matter in the light of the overall strategy of the Government since 1979 and of the people who control the Government. Most hon. Members have preferred the topic to remain in the area of individual conscience and private Members' Bills. We all know what has been the fate of those Bills over a long period. That traditional view has served us well, but now we see a change.
The Auld report made only two recommendations and the fact that one is completely ignored in the Government's motion ought to make the Opposition suspicious.
The first recommendation has been up taken with great enthusiasm by some members of the Government. I believe that many hon. Members on both sides of the House regarded the Home Secretary's speech today as pretty deplorable. The only highlights were the interventions. But it was not the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech; it had all the hallmarks of the Prime Minister's view.
The Government are searching frantically for new sacrifices on the altar of market freedom. Over the past six years, we have seen many sacrifices on that altar, and our traditional Sunday is to be the latest victim. Deregulation and simple solutions to complex problems are the
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hallmarks of the Prime Minister's thinking. Here we see a simplistic approach and the abolition of all controls. Does not that smack of the Prime Minister's view? Once again, the Prime Minister has got it wrong.
All hon. Members know that there is some middle ground on this issue. We all know that over the years society has altered. There are real anomalies, and there is a need for change. We also know that shopping patterns are different. Many of us would say that the anomalies could be ironed out by legislation and that a small expansion covering, perhaps, do-it-yourself shops and garden centres, could be considered. But the main thrust of the shops legislation could be kept intact.
Mr. Hugh Dykes: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Sheerman: I shall not give way. I am short of time.
The Auld report is very poor. The evidence given is quite contrary to the committee's conclusions. All the evidence shows that there should be a sensible reform of the legislation, which we could all agree on. However, three people have come up with the recommendation that all the legislation pertaining to shop hours and trading should be scrapped. There will be many casualties, including shop workers and not only their families but the families of transport workers and of people who are now to be forced to spend time apart when they should be together on a Sunday.
Several Hon. Members rose
Mr. Sheerman: I shall not give way.
The complexities of modern life are dividing our families. Too often, families do not have the opportunity to gather together during the week, and this legislation will make it even more difficult for parents to see their children and for mothers, fathers and children to gather round the table or to gather in the church or chapel and to communicate with one another.
This proposal seriously underrates the long-term social damage that will be done to the fabric of the family and of the community. That has consequences, too, for law and order, vandalism and all the other things that worry us as legislators. But there can still be common ground if hon. Members of good will decide that this proposal is bad, and kick it out. Many hon. Members have derided what they call the traditional Sunday, and have described those of us who support and defend it as sabbatarians. That seems to be their common way of saying that we are do-gooders or kill-joys. That is apparently the trendy terminology for those of us who want to stick up for something that we believe to be right. I believe that the freedoms of workers, families and of those who want to live in peace on Sunday and who live near our urban shopping centres should be given some priority. But this Government, who give priority to the free market, to business and to their worship of Mammon, remind me of Oscar Wilde's reference to knowing
"the price of everything and the value of nothing".
A chain of unsatisfactory social consequences will flow from any such legislation and will make both it and the Government very unpopular. Indeed, they will be known as the Prime Minister and party who killed the British Sunday. It has been said that we should change our law because the tourists do not like it. Perhaps we should go further, and dress up in 17th century costume in order to

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appeal to them. Perhaps we should extend the way in which we appeal to tourists. Incidentally, I exempt you, Mr. Speaker, from those remarks and would never refer to you as part of the tourist industry.
We want a sensible and step-by-step approach that will protect shop workers and the traditional English Sunday. I have looked at the Conservative party's manifesto for 1983. The Prime Minister often tells us that her party has a mandate to abolish the GLC. However tenuous that argument maybe, she certainly has no mandate arising from that manifesto to change something as fundamental to British people as the British Sunday. The Government have no mandate to make such a change, and should not make it until they have one.
The change is so far-reaching that there must be a mandate. After all, it would fundamentally change the lives of shop workers and the nature of retail distribution in this country. I speak as someone who knows the co- operative side of the retail movement. Not in five, but in 10 or 15 years' time, we would see a complete change in the nature of our commercial life. Legislation would have a domino effect. No major retailer could afford to stay out once another retailer had opened on Sunday, and Sundays would become like every other day of the week. I do not believe that the British people want that.
The Auld report and the report of the Consumers Council show that the British people have never given their consent for such a drastic change, even in an opinion poll. The British Council of Churches made exactly the right comment in the introductory remarks to its booklet. With the exception of the document from the co-operative movement, that has probably been the best thing to come out of the past week's intensive period of lobbying. The BCC says:
"Our pattern of life in community has changed and the law needs revision to reflect those changes, but not to go far beyond them. Governments have a responsibility to see that such changes of the law are within an overall ethical framework which strengthens the community and safeguards the needs of its weakest members."
This proposal does not do that, and will make changes that are well beyond what is needed in this country today.
6.46 pm
Sir Bernard Braine: That the present law is chaotic and full of anomalies none can deny. That this is undesirable one can only agree, but to sweep away all restrictions on shop opening hours, as the Auld report recommends, is no answer, as I shall endeavour to show.
Anomalies arise because certain goods are exempt under the existing law but not others. It is not necessarily a bad law, but it has not been properly administered or amended. Nevertheless, certain goods are exempt under the existing law forbidding Sunday sales, and these are listed in the fifth schedule to the 1950 Act. One way around the problem might be to extend the exemptions where a clear case could be established for so doing, or to remove some of the restrictions on weekday trading. But that would not justify the Auld report's conclusion that the removal of restrictions
"offers the best—indeed the only—way forward"—
an arrogant view—and that any adverse effects
"would be far outweighed by the substantial benefits".
That is a monstrous presumption, and I object most strongly to being summoned here under a three-line Whip
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ostensibly to support it. I can do no such thing. It would be a contradiction of everything that I have stood for and said in the House for many years and, furthermore, it would run counter to the facts.
I assert, as do many of my constituents who have taken the trouble to raise the matter with me, that one cannot weigh in the same scales commercial gain, even convenience to the shopper— which are the supposed advantages—and the social benefit of keeping Sunday as a day of rest, a day that is different from all others. One is simply not comparing like with like. For most people, even those who do not go to church—and many still do —Sunday is different.
I do not know about the rest of the country, but the fact that Sunday is different is welcome in south-east Essex. Its pace is slower. It is quieter. It is a time for relaxation, reflection and recuperation. It is a healing day, one for family togetherness, and for many it is the only day in the week for corporate worship.
Every one of us knows in his heart that physical and mental health requires at least one day a week set apart from the rest. There is no evidence that the nation wishes Sunday as we have known it to be abolished.
I hesitate to agree with the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) in his strictures, but I have to say that no mention of legislation on these lines appeared in the Conservative party manifesto at the last election. I can recollect no mention of my party's intention to change the nature of Sunday. I recall no pledge to that effect at any time.
Since 1950, when the Shops Act was passed, some 13 attempts have been made to change the law, but they all failed. That shows that there is no support in the country for the sweeping changes now envisaged.
Mr. Sayeed: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Sir Bernard Braine: I shall not give way, because I am subject to the ten-minutes rule.
Let us consider the impact of the proposals on family life. It could be profound and damaging. Young and Wilmott found in a survey in Greater London that 52 per cent. of shift workers and 34 per cent. of weekend workers said that work interfered with home and family life, while only 27 per cent. of other workers did. On the one day that men are most likely to be at home, many wives will be out at work. Some 66 per cent. of retail workers are women and many of them are married. The point which needs to be underlined is that work on Sunday, whether by father, mother or teenager, reduces the possibility of the members of the family doing things together.
Take the effect on shop workers. The report concedes that,
"while some people are obviously happy to work on Sundays, others are not",
that there might be difficulty in getting sufficient volunteers, and that pressure might be applied on unwilling employees, with refusal to work on Sundays leading to dismissal or prejudiced promotion prospects. Constituents have told me that that is what they fear and I have no doubt that other right hon. and hon. Members have been told the same. Pressure on shop workers to work on Sundays would be difficult to monitor.
Let us consider the effect upon communities and consumers. Retail outlets will be open for longer, but because the turnover available to support retail enterprises will hardly rise at all — no one contests that — the

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number of outlets is likely to decline. Fewer outlets generally will mean fewer nearby outlets for those who find it hard to travel. I refer particularly to the old, the sick and those on low incomes. Fewer outlets will mean fewer local shops. That is a consequence that should be measured.
Let us consider the impact on church life. Congregations will be fragmented. Some people who would like to attend the main service of the week on a Sunday morning will be unable to do so because they will be required to work. It will rarely be possible for the church members in any one area to gather together as a whole. Church attendance will be made more difficult.
Let us weigh the effects—
Mr. Fairbairn: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Sir Bernard Braine: No. I have already explained why. No one in the House is less fearful than I of standing up to criticism or intervention. I am simply obeying the Chair's ruling, and my hon. and learned Friend knows that. I hope that that intervention will be deducted from the time allotted to me.
Let us weigh the effects of the proposition on the trading community itself. Frequent references have been made in the debate to the economic review by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. That makes it plain that the tangible economic benefits of permitting Sunday trading are negligible. Retail turnover will rise almost not at all. In the short term, unit costs in retail industry will rise. The effect might well be upward pressure on prices. Alternatively, retail profit margins might be squeezed.
In practice, both those effects may be experienced. That will accelerate the decline in the number of small retailers. Employment will suffer. The institute estimates that in the short term the equivalent of 5,000 full-time jobs will be lost and that in the long term 20,000 will be lost. Because of part-time working, the number employed might rise in the short term and fall in the long term.
The Auld committee's argument is that people on both sides of the market want to trade and that it would be wrong in a free society for us to prevent them from doing so. That argument is totally unconvincing.
The Institute for Fiscal Studies notes:
"it might pay many individual retailers to open on Sundays even though it would pay all retailers collectively to shut on Sundays, and it is very likely that this is in fact the case."
As one of my constituents who wrote to me recently remarked, at a football stadium the first person who stands up has a better view, but soon everyone stands. The net result is that no one's view is improved but that everyone ends by standing instead of sitting.
I take note of the Auld report. I do not accept the case for legislation to remove the restrictions on shop hours. I regret that the Government contemplate introducing legislation to remove those limitations, and I shall vote accordingly.
6.57 pm
Mr. A. E. P. Duffy: Those who favour Sunday trading make much of the anomalies that have arisen from the Shops Act 1950, but, given the extent to which the face of retailing has changed since the war, it is not surprising that such anomalies should have arisen. I know of no one on either side of the debate who would not agree that we should deal with the anomalies. However, do we really require seven-days-a-week shopping to do that?
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The dynamic that has changed the face of retailing has been fierce, uncompromising, unrelenting, no-quarter- given competition. The number of retail outlets has declined from more than 500,000 in 1961 to 472,000 in 1971 and to less than 350,000 in 1981. The trend continues.
The number of independent grocers fell from 86,000 to 47,000 between 1971 and 1981. The proportion of national income devoted to spending in the shops has declined from 46 per cent. to 36 per cent. since the war, yet the Home Secretary speculated irresponsibly about the possibility, not of a 2 per cent. increase in that proportion on spending in the retail sector, but of a 5 per cent. increase. He is not in touch with the realities of the retail sector.
Pressure continues to concentrate in order to achieve economies of scale. Above all, the incentive is to retain the market share. Is it not arguable that concentration will accelerate under fiercer competition and that competition will be stimulated by longer shopping hours and Sunday trading? Those who say that shops need not open must be unaware of what has happened to the retail trade since the war.
The steady change in the pattern of retailing and the growth of superstores and hypermarkets have already had serious consequences, not only for the corner store but for disabled people and old-age pensioners. It is interesting to note how old people and others in rural communities have reacted differently from the rest of society—according to recent opinion surveys — as the car-borne shopper predominates and public transport becomes more costly and less frequent. Not only is the small shop under pressure, but USDAW is properly concerned about those trends and their effect on its members.
Irrespective of which side of the argument we support, none of us can fail to respond to the appealing speech of the right hon. Member for Castle Point (Sir B. Braine). I am proud of his stand on this topic. We must all share his concern about the effect of these proposals on the quality of life as so many of our precious social values come under strain and are eroded.
The Auld committee considered the traditional character of Sunday and accepted that widespread Sunday trading would probably
"affect the traditional character of the day."
It believes that the tradition of Sunday as a day of little activity outside the home and the church has lolg gone. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have already rejected that view. The resolution passed by the Free Church Federal Council and the British Council of Churches in March last year said that there was a social need for Sunday to be a day for the family to be together.
The Auld committee said of retailers that if, following deregulation, Sunday opening occurred on a wide scale, there was a risk that some small shops, and the weaker units among the multiples, would be unable to compete and would have to close.
Many small shops survive only because they are family businesses, because they open all hours and because there is less control of the wages they pay their employees— but the social costs that the families must endure are enormous.
It was difficult to listen to the peroration of the Home Secretary and not think that he was really seeking a free- for-all. The Auld committee said that, although the evidence by USDAW and other organisations representing

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shop workers is against having to work on Sundays, those retailers who work on Sundays report no difficulty in finding staff willing to work.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) mentioned the impact of Sunday working on staff and on the current composition of the retail trade. Many of its workers are women, a high proportion of whom are married. There will be a considerable impact on their family lives.
The Auld committee commented on shoppers and said that there was an argument that additional shop opening hours would lead to greater demand upon public services. But it did not believe that there would be any great increase in public spending on public services. There will be greater recourse to weights and measures legislation, health and hygiene legislation, the Sale of Goods Act 1979, the Fair Trading Act 1973, the Trades Description Act, wages councils orders and the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act 1963.
Scotland has been cited, and we shall hear more about that from my hon. Friend the Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes). Factors prevailing in Scotland are unique, so we cannot compare like with like.
The Home Secretary argued that prices would not be affected by Sunday trading. When corner shops have closed and competition is reduced, price movements will undoubtedly reflect costs and rise. I refer those who believe that the proposals will lead to the creation of jobs to the findings of the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Some say that the current law is unsatisfactory because of social and economic changes, but to seek to scrap it altogether is defeatism. Everyone in retail trading fears that the proposals will mean a widespread extension of Sunday trading. Such a development would be detrimental not only to small shopkeepers and their families, USDAW members and other involved in the retail sector, but to those who have gained hitherto. I refer to the vast majority of the population who have Sunday as a day of rest or for corporate worship.
The proposals will have far-reaching implications for the flavour and rhythm of life in Britain. They will encourage the growing secularisation of the sabbath and make for a further erosion of Christian standards. When Sunday is an ordinary shopping day, it may become an ordinary working day for many people in addition to those employed in the retail sector.
Can we not have one day off? Must all the seven days now become the same because, in the words of David Lipsey in The Sunday Times yesterday:
"Reform of laws to allow Sunday trading, epitomises what Mrs. Thatcher's government is supposed to be about."?
7.6 pm
Mr. Tim Rathbone: Unlike some of my hon. Friends and most Opposition Members, I welcome the Government's motion. I also welcome the whipping because it is a new interpretation of whipping—when there is a three-line Whip, we have only to be here; it is no longer a question of what one does. That should be welcomed by Back Benchers on both sides of the House.
I am reassured by the condemnation of the Auld report by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman). It
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sounded as though he was talking about any piece of Conservative legislation, and if he condemns the report in that manner, it must be right.
The Auld report, which nobody has yet praised, is clear, concise and sensible. The removal of limitations on shopping hours and on Sunday trading is long overdue. I do not, however, welcome the absolute certainty that appears to underlie so many of the speeches about the dire future for those who work in shops or wish to shop at later hours or on Sundays. I want to put forward some tentative thoughts on some of the points made.
Underlying the Government's intentions in welcoming the report and promising legislation is the increased choice that it will give. It is difficult to measure a hypothesis that does not yet exist, either by opinion polls or by voting behaviour — and that was measured many years ago, before the introduction of commercial television. However, the report mentions a research measurement on page 193, table E2. It clearly shows that two thirds of people are in favour of changes in the hours and the days during which shops are allowed to open.
I do not believe that we should take that research measurement literally. It is one of the essential elements of our membership of this place not only to listen to majorities and interpret their wishes but to protect minorities. Therefore, I question the Government's denial of the second half of the report. while welcoming the Home Secretary's reassurance about the protection of minorities working in shops.
The claim by some Labour Members that there would be a decline in jobs if Sunday opening were permitted bears investigation. The Auld report uses the phrase "full-time equivalent" through its pages, though sadly, in small print buried in the report, is the view that up to 5,000 additional employment opportunities could be created by Sunday trading, with increased turnover of £300 million. That is nothing to be sniffed at when people are pressing the Government to take steps to improve the economy and employment opportunities.
On the technical, as against the sociological side, is the argument of the risk of the eventual diminution of choice in that, by extending Sunday opening to embrace all shops, some might be forced out of business because they could not, or would not open on Sundays. That is unlikely. In the village in Sussex where I live, because the locally owned food shop opens on Sundays, the local Spar shop, which is part of a network, has to open also to meet that competition. There will therefore be more encouragement for shops to open where such trading is seen to be needed to meet local desires.
On the sociological side, much reference is made to the erosion of the traditional British Sunday. That is an emotive phrase, and I agree that we should all be justifiably proud of that tradition if it still existed.
Mr. Cormack: It does still exist.
Mr. Rathbone: Contrary to that intervention by my hon. Friend, it does not exist with the same tradition as we associate with it. Cinemas are open, television is on and sport and recreation are taking place. Indeed, recreation is encouraged. Public services are provided. People man the telephones and offer taxi services and some still offer on Sundays, to a lesser degree than most of us would wish, train services. Indeed, it was greatly deplored, certainly on these Benches, when the Sunday collections and preparations for postal deliveries were withdrawn.

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In those countries — I embrace in this remark, I assure my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Perth and Kinross (Mr. Fairbairn), the area north of the border —where Sunday opening is allowed, there has been no diminution of family cohesion and family worship. Many hon. Members have visited the United States and reference has been made to laws that have been passed in Massachusetts. There is hardly a place—there may be no place — in the United States where there are not much more liberal laws allowing trading on Sundays. There is also hardly a place—there may be no place—in America where family churchgoing is not more prevalent than it is in Britain.
The two march together. The family unit does different things nowadays. Families do not just sit at home and play games. They go out to play them. They do not stay at home and garden. In addition to doing that, they go to the garden centre to buy the plants with which to do the gardening. Nor do they stay at home doing jobs about the house. They go to the DIY stores to buy the drills, wood, nails, even the furniture, with which to live a fuller life in the home.
There is no substantiation, except terrified theorising, of any underlying desirable effects on family life of Sunday trading. If there is a germ of possibility that I am right in my contention, who are we to tell everybody in every town and hamlet in Britain how to live their lives on one day of the week?
We are not saying that shops must open or that people must go shopping. We are talking of the possibility of a permissive law to allow people to go shopping as well as going to church, to go shopping as well as working in their homes, to go shopping or to do the things on the day that they want to do them with the people closest to them—the members of their families.
7.15 pm
Mr. Laurie Pavitt: When I first came into the House, the late Nye Bevan, apart from warning us of the green acres of boredom, gave me and others new to the place some extremely good advice. He said, "I am afraid that you new Members will have to learn to stand up and make speeches when most of the points that you wanted to make will have been made far more effectively by previous speakers."
In this case, I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Castle Point (Sir B. Braine), to my hon. Friends the Members for Bradford, South (Mr. Torney) and for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) for giving a comprehensive analysis of the subject. That is more than can be said of the speech of the hon. Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone), who began by saying that no references had been made to the Auld report. All hon. Members who have spoken have mentioned it, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Gorton dealt with two chapters of it.
I must at the outset declare my interest. I am a co-op sponsored Member. Many hon. Members whom I regularly call my hon. Friends may not know that I belong to a separate political party which is in coalition with the Labour party, and that has been the case since 1926.
Hon. Members have received a large amount of correspondence and have been lobbied by interests of all shapes and forms. The one that I have appreciated the most has come from the Lord Bishop of Willesden, the Right
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Reverend Geoffrey Hewlett Thompson, who sent me some extremely interesting propositions following an examina- tion of the issue by his synod.
The document that he sent me was not in the least sabbatarian. It recognised the whole concept of community life and dealt with what would happen— apart from the religious impact — if the Auld recommendations were implemented and the shops law was abolished. It referred to an outgoing community becoming an ingoing one, with less pressure being applied to the way in which we used our leisure, with less of it. Obviously that is a problem that we should face if we had a seven day working week, with the rat race not ending after five and a half days for shop workers.
The co-operative movement has always been the champion of the housewife and consumer, and I shall deal with the aspects of the report that deal with the consumer. It emerges immediately from a reading of the report, and from a re-reading of the debate in February 1983 on the private Member's Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney) — sufficient hon. Members turned up on that occasion to make the Friday debate viable—that two aspects must be taken carefully into account.
The first is that there is a section of consumers for whom convenience is an important point. Against that, however, must be put the power of the purse. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have said that the inevitable consequence of Sunday opening must be increased costs of retail distribution. Those increased costs must be passed on, and finally they come out of the housewife's purse.
The Auld committee looked too much at the convenience aspect, although I agree that that must be borne in mind—for example, for the large number of married women who go out to work. Against that, however, must be placed the inevitable consequence of the economic pressures on family spending that would result in increased prices.
Several hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill) referred to the issue of freedom of conscience, and the Home Secretary dealt with that. I suppose that I am the only Member who knows anything about conscientious objection, because I was a conscientious objector. I realise that in this debate we have been presented with inadequate blanket phrases, especially for those who could be affected by the proposal to work on Sundays. There are many disparate reasons that will cause a considerable number to feel it wrong that they should have to work on Sunday. They will take that view on religious grounds and many others. I accept that there can be safeguards for those who are already in work, but if someone wants to work as a shop assistant and he or she states in applying for a job an unwillingness to work on Sundays, that person will not get the job. If the recommendations in the Auld report are implemented, such an applicant will not be successful.
I am profoundly disturbed about the plight of low-paid workers. Tremendous pressure is building up on the Government Benches against wages councils in general. Therefore, it was the second recommendation in the report which found favour with me. The committee realised that retail employees formed one of the lowest paid sectors of the working population. It recognised that they needed to be protected by a wages council and that the relevant council should be preserved. Indeed, it recommended that

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the inspectorate should be strengthened and improved so that the retail sector will receive the same protection, whatever follows the Auld report.
Experience tells us that the lowest paid need the greatest protection. Those engaged in retail distribution have traditionally always been, with agriculture workers, at the bottom of the heap. Whatever else happens, it is vital that we retain for them the present safeguards. Estimates of job losses have been bandied about the Chamber. I have considered the figures of the Institute for Fiscal Studies and other organisations, including the Retail Consortium, and it seems that if the proposed Sunday working is put into effect we shall have another turn of the unemployment screw.
It is true that there is much part-time work in retail distribution. If there are fewer full-time workers, there will be a greater burden upon the state when it is called upon to provide social security payments and unemployment benefit. We often fail to take into account the social consequences and costs of changes in employment patterns. I have watched the Government pursue economic policies that lead to the rich becoming richer and the poor becoming poorer. We exist in an economic jungle and the rich and powerful have the means to protect themselves, but those on low wages need the protection that the House can provide for them. Therefore, the second recommenda- tion in the Auld report is vital.
It has been accepted generally that the 1950 Act needs changing. Social and economic circumstances have changed. However, that does not justify the Home Secretary's callous approach of scrapping the previous legislation because of the complications that would arise if we tried to amend it. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has adopted a defeatist approach and one that the House should reject wholeheartedly.
Change there must be, but there is no need for abolition. The parliamentary draftsmen are more than capable of introducing changes that will have the desired effect while preserving what is best in our family, cultural and social life within the community. We can preserve what is best in our traditions and habits while making the adjustments that are necessary to meet the changes that have taken place. There have been many changes since 1950 and it is clear that they must be reflected in legislation.
I began my speech by referring to the synod and I shall bring my remarks to a close by referring to it again. I ask the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) to reflect upon the quotation that I am about to submit to the House, as his constituency and mine come under the same bishop. The synod stated:
"We acknowledge that the provisions of part IV of the 1950 Act are unjustifiably anomalous, widely disregarded and unenforced, and we are greatly concerned that the law is being brought into disrepute."
I do not have time to read the four pertinent and practical suggestions that follow. However, the synod added:
"space therefore needs to be made in the pattern of community life for people simply to be, and to cultivate truly personal relationships in which people seek to know one another for their own sakes rather than as a means to acquisition."
I hope that the House will agree with that sentiment and that, when subsequent legislation comes before it, it will be scrutinised with the utmost care.
7.26 pm
Mr. Ivor Stanbrook: Sunday occupies a special place in the Christian religion and there is a tendency to regard all objections to Sunday trading as matters only of conscience. My right hon. Friend the Chief Whip has said that he will extend his indulgence to his right hon. and hon. Friends who feel compelled to vote against the motion on grounds of conscience, but no such indulgence is offered to those who oppose the motion on its merits. I am opposed to the motion on grounds of conscience and also because I believe that the Government are making a terrible mistake in seeking to push through changes in Sunday trading. The Government are guilty of a disastrous error of judgment which has political as well as religious overtones and they will pay dearly for it.
No one seriously disputes that the law governing Sunday trading is in need of reform. However, few people want Sunday to be like any other day of the week. The removal of all restrictions on Sunday trading, as recommended by the Auld committee, is bound to have that effect, because it is largely in the restriction on trading on Sundays that the day gets its special character.
A wise Government, especially one who claim to have respect for Victorian values, would seek to avoid such a result. Who can doubt that we all benefit from the weekly pause in the rhythm of everyday life? That pause—the enforced rest, the quietness, the opportunity for recreation and time to be with one's family, in the special character of Sunday that has been brought about in Britain—has been an essential part of the British way of life for centuries. It helps to keep us all sane.
In the. past few decades our pace of life has quickened. Urban society has grown more complex and noisy and there is more mental stress in everyday life than ever before. We need the pause that Sunday provides. We need the extra breathing space more than ever before. It is a basic human need that is recognised by the great religions of the world, the wisdom of the ages and sheer common sense.
What is the argument about? Why do do we need wholesale change in the law? To be fair to my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, he does not base his case on the allegedly beneficial effects of unrestricted trading on Sundays. The objectives of those who do so base their case are entirely materialistic and irrespective of public good. The reason given by my right hon. and learned Friend for his support of the abolition of restrictions is the state of the law. I accept that the law is confused, and confusion exists because it is not evident to the public why one item may be sold on Sundays while another which is not greatly different may not. This leads naturally to resentment of the law and the inclination to break it. That attitude is taken because it is regarded as a foolish law. There follows a disinclination to enforce it and, ultimately, contempt for all law. We all agree that we should avoid that at all costs.
That is the case of my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, but does it follow that the remedy is to abolish all restrictions? The Auld report is disappointing in this respect. It pays too little regard to the desirability of retaining our traditional Sunday and too much regard to anomalies in the law. Abolition is not the only answer. It is not right to abandon what has always been accepted as part of the British way of life. It is possible to strike a balance between the commercial and the truly public

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interest. All we need is a logical, and obviously logical, statement in our law of what goods may be sold on Sunday and who may trade on Sunday. This is the task which my right hon. learned Friend the Home Secretary and the Auld committee faced, and they funked it. They chose the easy way out. They found the task too difficult, so they surrendered to the commercial and libertarian lobbies, believing that the sabbatarians, the Christian churches and the trade unions were in retreat.
I was not surprised by the Auld committee's conclusions. They were predictable, considering the way the wind was blowing. I was however surprised that the Government thought it right to force this measure through on a three-line Whip. As if they had not enough enemies already, within and without, they seem determined to alienate a sizeable part of the electorate who hold deep-rooted beliefs about Sunday trading and have hitherto given the Government solid support. These include small traders, shop workers and small business people. They include also many people with a Christian conscience about Sunday. Nowadays, we may not all subscribe to the Christian faith and the Christian church may no longer be entitled, because of dwindling support, to the special position it occupies in the state. But those of us who are still adherents of the Christian faith will fight strongly for it to keep its position and influence in our national life.
As I understand it, the Christian argument for the maintenance of respect for the fourth commandment in our law is that it is positively good, in the scheme of things as God created it, to have a day set apart for rest and recreation and family life. This is so, if not just because it is one of the ten commandments, then because it is for the good of society and sanity and, indeed, employees.
A Government who seek to undermine one of the ten commandments do so at their peril, for they are abandoning Christian morality as the basis of their actions. As Lord Devlin said in the Maccabean lectures in 1965:
"A state which refuses to enforce Christian beliefs has lost the right to enforce Christian morals".
If the report is accepted, there are likely to be further encroachments on the Christian position in our society.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths rose —
Mr. Stanbrook: I am sorry, but I do not have sufficient time to give way.
If we destroy the traditional Christian Sunday, how long will it be before compulsory religious education disappears from our schools? Will some other Secretary of State appoint some other Robin Auld to say that, because it is so widely disregarded, the requirement for morning worship in schools must be abandoned and section 25 of the Education Act 1944 repealed? I hope that the Government will think carefully before going further along that path.
In February 1983 a private Member's Bill proposed to do what the Auld committee recommends we should do now. The Bill was defeated on a free vote by 205 votes to 106. I abstained because I thought that some reform of the law was needed to eliminate anomalies, but 41 of my hon. Friends had no such qualms. They voted against the Bill as it stood.
Tonight, all my hon. Friends are summoned to be here. How will those 41 vote this time? Will they fall into line behind the Home Secretary? Those of us who will not are good Conservatives upon whom the Government have relied in foul weather as well as fair. We believe that this
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time the Government are simply and absolutely wrong. We are not prepared to accept dictation in a matter of this kind. I hope that all those who voted against the Whitney Bill in 1983, and many more besides, will join me in the No Lobby tonight.
7.35 pm
Mr. Austin Mitchell: I have long prevaricated and equivocated on this issue, to such an extent that I am fed up with my own indecision. I have generally kept my head down, as one does when the arguments are irreconcilable. I have been pulled both ways by an instinct for liberalisation and change and yet also by a desire to protect the small shopkeeper, the co-operatives and the standards and conditions of shop workers, as well as a general conservative instinct, which naturally is strong in the Labour party, to preserve our way of life on Sunday for sociological, if not religious, reasons.
I decided tonight that sentimentality is not enough, that the time has come to choose, that we cannot hold back the tide — to give three platitudes — and that we face essentially a straight choice, as the Home Secretary said, between deregulation and the present mess. The House had dithered on this issue for far too long, and 19 Bills show the extent of that dithering.
There is no possible compromise between deregulation and the present mess. I do not see any way of deciding that shops should be kept open on the basis of their size. There is no possibility of including some sections of business while excluding others, opening some sections of a supermarket and closing others. I see no middle ground, except the hypocrisy in which we are involved. Once one starts trying to define a middle ground, there is no possibility of agreement.
I must plump for deregulation. I shall, therefore, vote for the Government's motion—on three grounds. First, the present position is a mess, as has been admitted on all sides. Enforcement of trading hours depends not only on the will of the local authority but, often, on the pressure that is brought to bear on that authority. Some authorities reluctantly enforce the regulations, while others do not. Unpredictability brings the law into disrepute. It is a mess of follies, fines, fiddles and fuss which is untenable.
Secondly, the public want an extension of hours and trading on Sunday. All the poll evidence shows this. One must go with the evidence of the polls, which give an overall opinion, not with the pressure of individual fanatics and people with strong feelings. We serve the community and by acting in favour of Sunday trading and deregulation, we are giving the people what they want. Indeed, we are giving the people something for which they have already voted with their feet, their cheque books, their credit cards and their cash.
Thirdly, it is wrong for a minority of any type, religious or otherwise — indeed, in the case of the religious minority, it is a "minority of that minority", as Bishop Gummer, of Suffolk, Coastal has pointed out — to impose their wishes, attitudes and inhibitions on other people. They wish to impose the inhibitions and attitudes of a way of life of 50 years ago and do so by bringing the law into disrepute. They can impose their wishes only by making other people law breakers in a totally undesirable fashion. It is even more undesirable for the Scots, who have freedom, to come down here and attempt to dictate what controls we should have in this country.

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Those of us who are taking part in the debate are white, not representing Pakistani shopkeepers. Most of us are male, and do not represent the bulk of shoppers. The only exception is my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald) who, I know, is a Stakhanovite shopper. Thus our contributions are unrepresentative of the attitudes of the community.
I support the Government. If anything could have put me off, it was the speech of the Home Secretary, with his equivocation on wages councils. It is essential that the Government commit themselves to retaining wages councils in this area. That is a strong recommendation of the Auld report. If the Government carried out that recommendation, there would be much support for the measure by the Opposition, because our principal concern is about the wages and conditions of shop workers. The Government should have been magnanimous and big- hearted enough to say that they would commit themselves to the retention of wages councils, which can enforce the proper conditions.
The conscience provision should also be extended, because the industry has a rapid turnover, with new people coming in all the time. It should be extended to all employees, to give them the right not to work on Sundays if their conscience dictates. The protection of pay and conditions should be built in.
I shall support the measure because I believe in competition. It will stimulate business and increase trade. It will stimulate the economy as a whole. Therefore, the predictions of the Institute for Fiscal Studies about job losses will not be borne out. I believe that Sunday trading and the extension of hours adds to the gaiety of life and the convenience of the consumer. It adds to the opportunities for the family. People may say that the morbidity, boredom and dullness of the traditional English Sunday brings the family together— [HON. MEMBERS: "Speak for yourself."] All my family can do on a traditional English Sunday is go for a walk on Cleethorpes front, which is not the most exciting form of activity.
I believe in opening up opportunities for the family to shop together, as well as the opportunities for the working wife. Let us not forget that 57 per cent. of married women work. There are also opportunities for the shift worker and for those who cannot shop in normal shopping hours. My predecessor as Member of Parliament for Grimsby wrote in "The Future of Socialism" in 1956 that we needed more open-air cafes, brighter and gayer streets at night, later closing hours, and so on ad infinitum. That means giving the kiss of life to Sunday, not keeping it as a dead day of closed shops, miserable streets, furtive law breaking and total hypocrisy. Let us have the choice. That is what the implementation of the Auld report will give us.
I do not know whether the change that the report brings will be drastic. Personally, I hope it is, because I should like to reinvigorate Sunday and give new life to it. In implementing the report, we shall allow choice as to whether the change is drastic to those to whom it properly belongs—to the consumer, the shopper and those who want to use the choice. We should do that rather than impose it on them. I believe that that is right.
7.43 pm
Mr. Andrew Rowe: I like Sundays even though they deprive me of the company of most of my hon. Friends. They allow me to go home and have a peaceful time with my family.
Having looked into the background of the debate, I have a considerably enhanced appreciation of and gratitude towards the 17,000 to 19,000 employees of London Transport, the 30,000 to 40,000 manual workers in local authorities, the 22,000-plus flight staff of British Airways, the 16,000 staff in the fire services, the 60,000 staff of British Rail and the 26,000 staff of the Central Electricity Generating Board, who are among the hundreds of thousands of people who make it possible for me and my family to enjoy our Sunday. Sunday seems to be traditional only in the Victorian sense that the Victorian Sunday was carried on the backs of a large number of people who worked so that the rest could enjoy the Sunday that has passed into legend.
In that catalogue of people to whom I feel gratitude, I should have mentioned the unascertainable number of police who spend their Sundays shepherding those of us who choose to spend our family day marching through the streets, in order to avoid threats to public order. I should also have mentioned all the people who are busily preparing Monday's newspapers.
It seems to me that faith is a matter of seven days a week. Already, many of us spend part of our Sunday in church, at our own choice, but it is also true that many of the churches are moving towards meeting their members outside the confines of Sunday. It is a poor church that relies on the shops being closed to attract a congregation. Although he has left his place, I am sure that the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) would not rely on that in his other capacity.
Modifications are possible. In Massachusetts, to which much reference has been made, trading on Sundays does not start until 12 noon. That is a compromise to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary might care to give his attention.
Mr. Roger Gale: Does not my hon. Friend accept that in Massachusetts they have enshrined in law the right of a man not to work on Sunday? That matter has worried many of us deeply.
Mr. Rowe: I entirely accept that. The right of people not to work on Sundays and not to be put under that pressure is important.
Sunday has also been described as the family day. I am unclear as to exactly what is meant by "the family day", but one thing that is certain is that many families enjoy shopping together. I happen to believe that simple Christian slogan that "the family that prays together stays together". I also believe that it may be possible that the family that shops together stops together.
However, it is true that life is changing anyway. The hon. Members for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) and fÓr Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) are entirely wrong to attribute any Machiavellian motives to the Government. However, they may be right that such things as five and six-shift, working are altering the shape of the working week. So are flexitime and shorter working hours. All those things will make it easier for families to choose how best to coincide. If, as a long-term result, the difference between Sunday remuneration and that for other days

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gradually disappears, that will be no bad thing. It would also be a good thing if overtime and double time eventually disappeared.
As the vice-chairman of the Small Business Bureau and editor of its newspaper Small Business, I have heard the fears of many small traders. I believe that they are grossly exaggerated. In Sweden, Sunday opening has led to the development of some 2,000 convenience stores. In the United Kingdom we already have less than 25 per cent. of the number of convenience stores which United States experience suggests we should expect if our small business proprietors were as energetic and optimistic as their peers overseas.
Disgraceful practices such as discriminatory discounts, which this Government of ours are far too slow to tackle, are a menace, but Sunday shopping is not one of the perils hanging over the small shop. The Swedish food retailers have said that free hours have proved to be a competitive tool for the small retailer. I believe that it would be the same here.
I bring to the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary a minor but important point, which was first brought to my attention by the Kent Association of Small Shopkeepers. If there is a relaxation of trading hours, the Post Office must be expected to change its regulations governing the rules on sub-post offices which, at the moment, are required by those rules to stay open during normal shopping hours. They should be able to shut on any day of the week.
We are not talking about shops staying open seven days a week. Shops should be able to choose when to open, within the spectrum of the seven days. People do not want shops to be open for seven days a week; they want to know when they will be open, and they want them to be open at convenient times.
Many shopkeepers may find that closing the shop on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday will be better for them and for the public, and will give them the opportunity to enjoy leisure facilities when they are not overcrowded.
We owe our local authorities a clarification of the law. They detest being required to enforce a law that, if the experience of my local garden centre is anything to go by, the public holds in total contempt.
7.51 pm
Mr. George Foulkes: The hon. Member for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) gave away one of the real reasons for the Government's enthusiasm for this report. He said that he—and no doubt the Government too—want to do away with time and a half and double time, and to make the wages for each day of the week exactly the same.
I declare an interest as a Co-operative Member. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh.") To the hon. Gentlemen who made those sheep-like noises and to the Minister, I should like to say that I have had, and retain, a strong commitment against Sunday opening irrespective of that fact. If I had had no such conviction, the shallow and spurious arguments and the tendentious and biased polemic in the report would have convinced me.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Mellor): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Foulkes: No. The Minister will have an opportunity to reply later on.
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The members of the committee seem to have decided on their conclusion in advance and then gone out of their way to justify that conclusion with arguments rather than facts or evidence. As my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) said, the first conclusion is not supported by evidence. There is no ovenvhelming public—
Mr. Fairbairn: What about Scotland?
Mr. Foulkes: I shall deal with Scotland. The hon. and learned Gentleman is behaving in his usual tendentious way.
There is no overwhelming public demand for Sunday shopping. The right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart) challenged hon. Members to prove that there was an overwhelming demand and, as we expected, there was no reply. The majority of retailers strongly favour the retention of controls on Sunday shopping. I therefore found it disappointing that the Retail Consortium, in its letter to us, did not make that clear.
The Auld committee deals, first, with anomalies. We had expected to hear clever speeches about bibles on the one hand and pornographic books on the other—about gin and dried milk—and we heard them. However, we had not expected to hear them from the Home Secretary.
The anomalies could be dealt with without scrapping the controls completely. We can certainly accept rational exemptions, as in the case of airports. However, there are anomalies in the law in many other areas. Food put up for sale as pet food is subject to VAT at the standard rate, but if the label of a food makes no reference to pets, it may be regarded as a zero-rated animal feeding stuff. Pies and pasties sold hot are subject to VAT at the standard rate but if sold cold may be zero-rated. There are many anomalies in the application of VAT. However, although such action would certainly be more welcome than the present proposals, we do not expect the Government to abolish VAT.
The second argument in the Auld report is that the current legislation is too complicated. Amazingly, the report states that the law is not easy for lawyers to understand or interpret. That is a characteristic of most legislation, and I thought that difficult legislation was popular with the lawyers. In any case, to suggest that because the law needs simplification it should be abolished is somewhat drastic.
Some hon. Members have referred to Scotland. Paragraph 243 of the report states:
"The most frequently cited comparison is Scotland… the pattern of Sunday opening in England and Wales under de- regulation would not necessarily be the same. Scotland is a predominantly rural country, with few large shopping centres outside Edinburgh and Glasgow, and with more strongly rooted religious traditions of Sunday observance. Moreover, many of its larger shops are operated by companies whose headquarters are in England. Some may have remained shut on Sunday because their English based managements have geared all their retailing to their trading patterns south of the border… De-regulation of opening hours in England and Wales might prompt a new look at Sunday trading there"—
in Scotland—
"as well."
The majority of people would agree with Auld that Scotland is different and that, for the reasons put forward in Auld, we have not seen a rash of Sunday opening there. However, if there is Sunday opening in England and Wales, all our shops will open. Auld says so, but Auld does not draw the right conclusions.
Mr. Fairbairn: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Foulkes: Scotland is the most quoted example, although it contradicts the Auld conclusions, but Scotland is not the example that the Government are following. They are following the example of the United States of America. I am fed up with suggestions that, like the United States, we should deregulate in every way. I have been to the United States many times. I do not like the American Sunday. I like the traditional British Sunday.
Mr. Fairbairn: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Foulkes: My hon. Friends have expressed many worries about the wages councils. Not only is that second recommendation of the report not to be implemented, but many speeches and statements have made it clear that the Government intend to get rid of the wages councils.
I should like to say a few words about the quality of the British Sunday. I speak not as a practising Christian but as an hon. Member who represents a large number of practising Christians and who respects their views. I wish that the hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), the chairman of the Conservative party, had the courage of his convictions. I do not believe that he really supports the legislation. I believe that, as in many instances, he has been sat on by a certain lady.
I respect strong religious convictions. In 1961 the Crathorne committee referred to the special character of Sunday. The Auld report quotes the words of Bishop Hugh Montefiore:
"it gives space in the midst of a busy week, and it acts as a marker in the rhythm of everyday life."
The hon. Member for Mid-Kent referred to journalists, television producers, taxi drivers and others who have to work on Sundays. The fact that certain people have to work on Sunday is no argument for legislating to end the traditional Sunday for the shop workers and the rest of us.
Mr. Fairbairn: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on Crathorne?
Mr. Foulkes: It has been suggested that those who argue along these lines are killjoys.
Mr. Austin Mitchell: Hear, hear.
Mr. Foulkes: My hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) agrees. It is said in the report, and has been repeated this evening, that shopping is a leisure activity. I have a wife and three children and I have been shopping with them. Do we call that a leisure activity? I have read several of those books the titles of which begin. "The Joy of'. If my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), great author that he is, wrote a book entitled "The Joy of Shopping", it would not be a best seller. My joy is the joy of Sunday with the kids and no toyshops open. Is that not marvellous? None of the pressure to buy, buy, buy.
I reject Auld, the co-operative movement rejects it and I hope that the House will. It is amazing that the Government are being pressurised into legislation such as this by illegal and renegade do-it-yourself shops and garden centres. That is where the pressure is coming from.
Dr. Hampson: The pressure is coming from the public.
Mr. Foulkes: It is not coming from the public. Is it not appalling that DIY shops and garden centres should decide the law of the United Kingdom? I hope that Parliament is strong enough to reject that pressure.
8 pm
Sir Peter Mills: I shall not follow what the hon. Member for Carrick. Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) said, although his views were extremely interesting. I declare an interest—that is what is being done at the moment—as a reader in the Church of England. I am therefore deeply worried about some of these proposals.
This is not a happy day for me, as I am afraid that I am at variance with the Government whom I have supported loyally for so long. Their views on this important subject and those of the Auld report do not coincide with mine. Perhaps I might tell the Under-Secretary of State, a young Minister whom I admire, that he must be a little more careful in his attitude. I can see from his reaction that he is not very pleased with those who speak against what he is trying to promote. The way forward in any legislation, especially something as sensitive as this, is to take along those who disagree. My hon. Friend's attitude will not be helpful tonight.
I am amazed that there is a three-line Whip tonight. Our Chief Whip and the Whips have been most helpful. I am grateful to them, and thank them for their consideration. However, I must tell the House, the Government and my hon. Friend the Minister that the climate of the debate would have been much better if there had been no three-line Whip. Without it, many of those who will abstain or vote against the Government tonight would have supported them, or at least taken a different view. The three-line Whip is a serious mistake.
I do not apologise for stating my beliefs clearly. I should be dishonest to myself and the House if I did not. Keeping Sunday as a holy or different day is one of God's commandments and Christians still have to try to maintain those commandments. I find it difficult enough but we must try. Canon B6(1) of the Church of England states clearly that the Church of England believes that Sunday should be different and a holy day. That is not a bad aim in a modern world in which many people do not accept the Christian standard.
We all have memories of the past. The Victorian Sunday was not the sort of day that I like. It was a grim, joyless and highly restricted day. There should be a proper balance between work and rest. Sunday should be a joyful day for worship, relaxation, family and pleasure. The loss of that distinctive quality, which Sunday still has, would be a grievous loss to the nation as a whole, not just Christians. How dreary it would be if Sunday became a normal day. It is difficult, but we must try to maintain Sunday as a different day. For Christians, of course, it is a day on which one tries to worship and to give to God what is due to Him.
It is obvious that work has to be done on Sunday. I have listened carefully to the arguments that have been adduced today. I remember the years when, as a farmer, I had to work on Sunday mornings and afternoons. Work has to be done by farmers and others in essential industries, and by doctors and nurses. However, I never want Sunday to be another commercial day and for the seven days to be blurred into a continuous working period. Irrespective of the Christian attitude, that would be tragic for the nation and for the people, but it could easily happen if we abandon the legislation and give complete freedom.
I also fear for family life. Sunday trading would create a lot more part-time working. That would inevitably mean

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children with parents who work part time not having a day when there is a chance, no more, of enjoying a day together, perhaps having a meal together. It is only a chance in a difficult world, but family life could be seriously affected. There are enough attacks on family life at the moment and I do not want my Government, at the end of their term, to be known as the Government who reduced its quality. There are signs of our doing that and I do not want them to continue.
Workers would be under pressure. There would be moral and social pressure on people to take their turn in Sunday work. Christians have a duty to ensure that employees are not exploited or deprived of their rights of worship, leisure and recreation.
I am also worried for small shopkeepers. In a town such as Bideford, which has one pretty huge supermarket which sells everything, the effect on small shops of that supermarket opening on Sunday would be devastating. Small shopkeepers are under enough pressure already and Sunday trading would end many of them. That is contrary to the Government's aims. I admit that there are anomalies, but there must be a middle way. Indeed, I do not accept that there cannot be a middle way. We must find out how best to adjust to modern life.
I should like to conclude by quoting someone who has put it nicely from the Christian point of view — His Holiness the Pope. He said:
"Open up your working week to God by keeping the sabbath holy and partaking regularly of the eucharist. Respect the Lord's day as a precious gift. In this way we can avoid becoming the slaves of work or entertainment."
That is where I stand, and I shall not support the Government tonight.
8.9 pm
Mr. Ray Powell: The Opposition have established their case, especially my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman), who covered all aspects of the Auld report. I am one of the two sponsored members of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and represent about 400,000 workers. My union and its officers contributed greatly to the inquiry when it was set up. I well recall the Friday when we turned up to discuss the Shops Act 1950, and the suggestion from an hon. Member to introduce a private Bill to amend that Act. The Auld committee was then set up.
Before Christmas, at Question Time, I asked the Prime Minister whether she agreed with the full implementation of the Employment Act 1980 when she was prepared completely to ignore the implementation of the Shops Act 1950. Yet they are both Acts of Parliament, and should bind trade unionists, shoppers, shopkeepers and everyone. She agreed that both Acts should be implemented.
I have read the Auld report in detail—it is a lengthy document—and examined the input of USDAW into it. I am surprised to find that in many instances USDAW and the committee agreed. The USDAW policy statement says:
"Together with USDAW, the Committee believed that established retail workers would be under real pressure to conform to Sunday trading requirements wherever their employers saw fit. If they entered the trade believing that Sundays were their own, they could begin to think again. Without the 1950 Shops Act to protect them only those in strong, USDAW organised stores may be able to resist the pressures to work regularly on Sundays.
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Together with USDAW, the Committee believed that potential retail workers had better view Sundays as a routine working day if they were considering a career in a retail sector without the 1950 Shops Act.
Together with USDAW, the Committee believed that statutory control over retail workers' terms and conditions was an absolute requirement and that without effective and properly enforced Wages Council Orders retail workers, especially non- USDAW members, would be very vulnerable.
Together with USDAW, the Committee believed that some traders would profit very handsomely if the 1950 Shops Act was scrapped but many small traders would suffer increasingly. Their businesses would be the price to pay for extended late night and Sunday trading."
Dr. Hampson: I understand the worry that people may be exploited for seven days a week and miss the opportunity of Sunday worship. However, the information given by the right hon. Member for Manchester. Gorton (Mr. Kaufman), which is borne out by all experience in all countries, as it is in Saturday trading and Sunday pubs now, is that employees would primarily be Sunday-only employees—women and the young. Therefore, the rest of the case falls. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that people would be exploited only if they also worked the rest of the week?
Mr. Powell: I do not entirely accept what the hon. Gentleman suggests, for many reasons. In some -retail establishments, most shop workers must be trained in the job. Some of our employers will train people for a full week's work, but I am sure that they would not train them only for Sunday. If one asks for a drink in a pub or club, usually the barmaid or barman must be trained to serve that drink, to know the prices, to work the till and in many other ways. Not all individual traders would be prepared to volunteer training for one day's work week. A great deal more pressure would be put on people who are already working a five or six-day week to work on Sunday. If we abolish the wages councils, there will be even further pressure. Therefore, I reject the hon. Gentleman's suggestion, and praise the speeches from my right hon. and hon. Friends.
I shall return to the input of USDAW to the Auld committee, and that was agreed. The statement continues:
"Together with USDAW, the Committee believed that local residents would be subject to increased noise, traffic and disturbance wherever Sunday trading occurred.
Together with USDAW, the Committee believed that some consumers would enjoy more flexible options to time their shopping, but that other such as the elderly, the unemployed, the poor, inner city residents and the majority of consumers without private transport would find they had less choice and fewer options as small traders closed down and the large multiples moved out of the High Street onto out-of-town sites.
So, in six key areas USDAW and the Committee were in agreement on deregulated trading:
on the pressures on retail workers' terms and conditions
on the need for statutory protection for them should the 1950 Shops Act fall
on the heavy price to be paid by small traders
on the undesirable impact on local residents
on the severe restrictions which many consumers would face
on the job losses which would follow and the increased use of part-time and casual labour in the retail industry."
Yet, in the face of that agreement and all the objective evidence for which the Auld committee called, the committee recommended the abolition of the Shops Act 1950.
The impact of USDAW has been formidable. The Auld committee examined our reports and the reports from 500 organisations and individuals, with 7,000 responses to the invitations sent out, and undoubtedly and conclusively

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came to two major recommendations. The Government are prepared to implement and act on only one of them. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Gorton said, if the Government are prepared to respond to one recommendation, why will they not respond to the most important recommendation? The second recommendation relates to wages councils, and is far more important to the workers whom I represent.
On Tuesday 2 April, I tabled a question to the Secretary of State for Employment, asking him to make a statement about the future of wages councils. He replied:
"My right hon. Friend published a consultative paper on wages councils on 21 March. This invites comments by 31 May. Decisions will be taken when responses to the document have been considered."—[Official Report, 2 April 1985; Vol. 76, c. 531.]
I accept that reply. However, I fail to understand why this debate was brought forward. Why are we not debating the matter after the consultations have taken place—on 30 May—when the Home Secretary would be equipped with the necessary information to inform the House whether or not we should abolish the wages councils? The Government continue to drag their feet on the issue. When the Home Secretary says that he may be sympathetic to wages councils, it makes me shudder on behalf of the USDAW members whom I represent.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Torney), who is also sponsored by USDAW, used a sheaf of paper when he made his speech. However, he did not have enough time, as a result of the 10-minute rule, to conclude his speech. May I conclude his remarks by referring to the wages councils and the Low Pay Unit? I wish that I had more time to go into detail, because this is an important subject. My hon. Friend would have said that the wages councils were formed to protect the low paid and those who were least organised in trade unions. They were meant to put a bottom to wages paid in those industries where exploitation was rife. Without that base, shop workers will again be seriously exploited. They will have little hope of refusing work on Sundays if the employer demands it, knowing that, from the ranks of 4 million unemployed, people would be found to do their jobs and would readily agree to even greater exploitation just for the pleasure of a job of work.
Advocates of total abolition tell us that it would create more jobs. That is a fallacy. They talk without knowledge of shop life and shop practice. Abolition would increase the employment of part-time labour, and the employment of schoolboys and girls at weekends—
Mr. Edward Leigh: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for a speech that was terminated by the 10-minute rule to be continued by another hon. Member?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Ernest Armstrong): That is not a point of order.
Mr. Powell: Already, hosts of stores employ many part-time workers and, at weekends, they employ schoolgirls and boys. It is cheaper for the firms to do that, but opening on Sundays will create hardly any extra employment of full-time labour.
8.19 pm
Mr. Mark Robinson: I have listened to more of the speeches in the debate than has the hon.
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Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell), and I wonder whether life is different in south Wales from life in the areas of some other hon. Members who have spoken. On Sundays in my constituency I can buy almost anything I want within a five-mile radius of my home. There is Sunday trading in my region regardless of the state of the law.
Many hon. Members have mentioned garden centres. There are no fewer than four garden centres in my constituency, and I regret to say that, more than once, my wife and I have visited them on Sundays. In selling my wife pot plants, those centres were in breach of the law.
There are three clear issues in the debate. The paramount one is whether the Shops Act 1950 is acceptable. There are three aspects to that, the first of which concerns the origin of the Act. If one can believe it, it was introduced as a temporary measure in response to the report of the Gowers committee. It was never intended that it should remain permanently on the statute book. It was a consolidation measure to bring together several existing laws on trading. It made no attempt to deal with the anomalies that existed, even in 1950. Those anomalies have remained, and have increased consider- ably during the past 10 years. As a result, hundreds of thousands of people in England and Wales, but not in Scotland, shop on Sundays and are therefore in breach of the law. It is wholly wrong that such a law should remain on the statute book.
The second issue is whether the 1950 Act can be replaced by new legislation that would cure the anomalies and find an acceptable balance between those who believe that there should be some limited Sunday trading and those who want a completely free system. The Auld report clearly demonstrated the difficulty of achieving that. How can we regularise the law so that it will control Sunday trading? Should we do it by location? Should we say that high street shops must remain closed, but that the out-of-town shopping centres can remain open? If we did that, we should only accelerate the move away from town centres into the new shopping areas.
Should we regulate it by the type of goods sold? In the multi-purpose store, how can one distinguish which part of the store should be open, so that people can make purchases there, and which part of the store should remain closed? Should we do it by size of store? Do we say, "If a store is a certain size, it may open on a Sunday, but if it is larger, it may not"? Should we regularise Sunday trading by producing a list of goods that can be posted near the cash register so that the person operating the till can say, "I am sorry, but you cannot buy that on a Sunday?"
The answer is that, whatever route we take, the anomalies will still exist. Even if a satisfactory formula could be found, decisions will inevitably be arbitrary. If we find an acceptable formula, how can we enforce it? The burden of enforcement is placed on district councils. As one store owner said to me, if Newport district council decided that his store should not open on Sundays, he would simply go across the border to Cardiff. Therefore, Newport would lose his business, and Cardiff would gain it. If we leave enforcement to district authorities, that is the sort of difficulty that they will have. I am sure that they do not want the burden.
I should be interested to hear the Minister's thoughts on whether, in terms of Sunday trading and late-night opening, it would be possible to exercise more regulation through the planning authorities so that at least the peace

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and quiet that is wanted in most residential areas can be maintained. Is it realistic to use the existing mechanism of planning law rather than the criminal law?
The third issue is whether the abolition of the Shops Act will require additional protection for shop workers. From some of the speeches by Labour Members one would have thought that that was the only issue in the debate. I welcome the assurance of my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary that he accepts the principle behind the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill). I also commend to him the Massachusetts precedent as it is reproduced in the Auld report. It may contain the answer to the problem of the retail worker who, because of his religious views, does not wish to be forcerd to work on Sundays.
At present, there is no protection for the British Sunday in areas where shops open on Sundays. In Scotland, where Sunday trading is permitted, and in England and Wales, where it is illegal but still happens, people continue to enjoy the traditional British Sunday while at the same time using the shops that are open.
8.29 pm
Rev. Martin Smyth: I am puzzled by the speech of the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Robinson). In both his speech and those of other hon. Members there was a recurring theme: that if the law is broken sufficiently often we should no longer seek to uphold and enforce it. As I come from a part of the United Kingdom where there has been a fair amount of murder and mayhem, I am beginning to wonder whether the same kind of thinking permeates Government guidance as in the realm of Sunday trading. In other words, if the law is broken we should no longer try to uphold it.
Several aspects may not have been given sufficient consideration in this debate. Mention has already been made of the fact that there is no large body of public opinion that favours drastic change. Although some anomalies could be removed, I do not believe that the arguments contained in the Auld report are sufficiently convincing to require us to legislate and therefore change the character of the British Sunday. There are several reasons for this.
The first has already been alluded to and glibly set aside —that is, the reference to the fact that young people will be employed on Sundays. It amazes me that hon. Members are prepared to tolerate cheap labour so that multiple stores may continue to prosper while we relapse into one of the worst aspects of an outdated Victorian society. Therefore I urge the Government to give deeper consideration to this aspect before they legislate, because it will not ultimately enrich the country and help the community. An increasing number of part-time workers will result in an increase in the black economy, but the economy of the nation as a whole will not be improved.
The hon. Member for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) said that he believed in the old adage that the family that prays together stays together. He also believes that the family that shops together stops together. I am not sure whether we have examined family shopping sufficiently closely. I have discovered that it becomes a nightmare not only for their mothers and fathers but for other shoppers when children run hither and thither through multiple stores. I submit that there is ample time on other occasions for the family to shop together and to stick together through thick and thin. It is a travesty of one of our fundamental values
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to equate shopping together with praying together. It reflects the commercial attitude which predominates on certain Benches, to the detriment, I believe, of the nation. In Ulster there are business men who would sell their granny if they could get enough for her. There are those who let the commercial and profit motives take control.
I hope that hon. Members will reflect, not upon what will happen to businesses, but to communities. I am sure that other hon. Members know of the difficulties that are experienced in shopping complexes in urban areas. Planning permission has been given for their construction without considering the consequential knock-on effect upon the neighbourhood. Many of my constituents have been in touch with me about what happens in their areas. It is all very well for the shopper who comes to the shopping precinct, gets a bargain and goes away again. However, for six days of the week, from the early hours of the morning until late at night, large vans arrive and are unloaded, trolleys clatter and quietness disappears from the community. Those communities are now being asked to tolerate yet more noise and thereby lose the one day upon which they can enjoy peace and quiet. I plead on behalf of those people for a re-examination of the legislation.
As one who was nurtured on a respect for the Lord's day, I urge this Chamber to pause before it moves in the direction of accepting one basic element of the Auld report and ignoring the other basic element. That element has already been alluded to, but I ask hon. Members to think afresh about the Christian Sunday—the Lord's day, as some of us prefer to call it. Since I became a Member of Parliament, there have been innumerable allusiors in debates to the lack of respect for authority. This Chamber could take a step towards leading the nation back to a respect for authority if it set its seal upon observing the authority of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Whatever the religion of people may be, I discover that we have this in common: that although we may disagree on the day, we believe in the principle that one day in seven ought to be set aside for rest and worship and family life. You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, could do it as effectively as I, but I do not intend to deliver a sermon upon the New Testament doctrine of the Lord's day. Nevertheless. I wish to emphasise the principle. Exceptions are therein allowed, but I plead with hon. Members to look afresh at this question.
Victorian principles have often been upbraided, but, whether or not we like every aspect of Victorian society, one principle which remained true was concern for the family. Even when families broke up, we discover that the Victorian society provided help and support for those who were in particular need. I believe that if the Auld report is implemented and we depart from the principles a the Old Book, family life will continue to be eroded, as will respect for authority which manifests itself in riots on the streets. Therefore, I urge the House to think carefully. If it accepts the principle contained in the Auld report, I hope that the Government will examine the matter carefully before introducing legislation.
8.39 pm
Mr. Patrick Cormack: The hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) speaks for more people than he perhaps realises. W e often forget that more people go to church on Sundays than go

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to football matches on Saturdays. That is a statistic which I offer to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department.
I wish to concentrate upon two or three aspects. Although the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gm-ton (Mr. Kaufman) did not tell us where he stood on the issue of Sunday trading, and gratuitously distorted the points made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, nevertheless there was real substance in what was said by the hon. Member for Belfast. South, who referred to the suggestion that a law should be abolished if it is unenforceable. That is an exceptionally dangerous doctrine. It could be argued that speeding restrictions are far less popular than restrictions on Sunday trading. It could also be argued that speeding restrictions are just as difficult to enforce, but it would not therefore be sensible to argue that there should be no speeding restrictions.
Most hon. Members who are very troubled by the subject that is being debated today are not killjoy sabbatarians. We believe that Sunday should be a joyful day when people enjoy themselves to the full— it is irrelevant whether they go to church as part of that—and a different day from the rest of the week. We believe that there is a traditional British Sunday, and the Auld report recognises that its proposals are bound to have a corrosive or eroding effect on that traditional Sunday.
We believe that there is much to be said for a family having a meal together on a Sunday. That is as important in its way in making a family unit cohesive as is going to church. We do not suggest that the present law is perfect or that it is not riddled with ridiculous anomalies, about which my right hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Oppenheim) spoke with great conviction.
However, I was disturbed by one aspect of the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester. She rightly declared an interest as a director of Boots and said that she would not obey the Boots whip but would vote with the Government and against her fellow directors. That is an honourable and proper position, but hon. Members who are doubtful about how to vote ought to note that my right hon. Friend said that although Boots did not wish to open on Sundays and agreed with the Retail Consortium in underlining all the objections that have been put so reasonably, if Sunday trading came, Boots would open.
Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: I did not say that.
Mr. Cormack: My right hon. Friend certainly gave that impression.
Mrs. Oppenheim: I said that if our customers wished us to open, we would do so.
Mr. Cormack: I apologise if I slightly misquoted my right hon. Friend, but there will be pressure and many more shops will open, not only to the detriment of the character of the British Sunday, but to the detriment of the small shop, whether the corner shop, the village shop or the small establishment in a rural area.
I believe that there could be a reasonable compromise. I gave evidence to the Auld committee and tabled an amendment to the motion. Mr. Speaker did not select my amendment which, imperfectly, suggests that one solution could be to limit the easing of restrictions to
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establishments employing fewer than a certain number of people. The Home Secretary dismissed that suggestion and said that he did not think it sensible. However, he did not put up convincing arguments to demolish my proposal.
Many of us believe that garden centres and village shops that are struggling to keep open fulfil a useful social function and we argue that freeing them from restrictions and anomalies should not mean that we would automatically have the cash tills jingling in every high street on every Sunday, thereby creating a second Saturday or, even worse, transferring the pressure so that Sunday becomes a peak shopping day.
The Government are on a dangerous course which carries the serious threat that part of our national life will be seriously undermined. On whatever terms we were debating the motion, I should find myself in the opposite Lobby to my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary and his ministerial colleagues.
I have been here long enough for three-line Whips not to mean a great deal to me. If I believe that the merits of an issue are not particularly great, I shall vote against the party. I have done so on a number of occasions, though not with any relish or enjoyment. I greatly resent the fact that this issue has been made the subject for a three-line Whip. That flies in the face of one of our better and more honourable parliamentary traditions, which is that an issue that is, broadly speaking, one of conscience and not of party politics should be left to the discretion and conscience of hon. Members who should vote accordingly.
I have been given a little licence. I received a pleasant letter from my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary in which he acknowledges my misgivings and says that my conscientious scruples are fully respected. I appreciate that and I understand that my hon. Friends who have made similar representations have received a similar licence. However, that is not an answer, because I know that other colleagues are disturbed about the Government's policy, but, because a three-line Whip has been put on, they feel obliged to support the Government. That applies particularly to Parliamentary Private Secretaries, the great extra army of unpaid members of the payroll vote.
If the Government wish to test the opinion of the House, which should be the object of the debate, there should be no Whip on. The matter should be treated as any other major issue of conscience would be treated, and hon. Members should be allowed to vote without fearing that they are being disloyal.
Mr. Lyell: And no abstentions.
Mr. Cormack: I always think that abstention is an undesirable course.
My hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone) placed the most charitable interpretation on the new Government view of the three-line Whip. He said that it means what it says; hon. Members turn up and do what they like when they get here. If I thought that that really was the Government's new approach, I should be the happiest man in the Chamber. However, I cannot believe that that is what it means.
The Government have imposed a three-line Whip and they expect Conservative Members to support the declared policy. I believe that policy to be wrong, but whether my misgivings are correct or not—it is just as likely that my right hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester is right;

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we have equally deeply held convictions — it is unnecessary to place on Conservative Members an obligation and subsequently to issue a licence saying that it does not matter.
The matter should be treated as an issue of conscience. My hon. Friend the Member for Torridge and Devon, West (Sir P. Mills) made a moving speech in which he pointed out that he had been one of the Government's most loyal supporters, through thick and thin. He should not be made to feel that he is rebelling against the party line.
I shall vote against the Government's policy because I do not believe in it. Even at this late hour, I urge my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, who is to reply to the debate, to have hurried consultations so that when he winds up the debate he can tell us, "The Whips are off. Vote according to your conscience and your belief." In that way, the Government will discover the true opinion of the House and, by behaving in that sensible, magnanimous and realistic way, they will avoid many problems for the future.
If the Government embark on legislation, with many unhappy Members on the Conservative Benches—even though the unhappiness of those hon. Members may be stifled today—that unhappiness will manifest itself and the Bill will not have a smooth passage.
I urge the Under-Secretary of State to think again and I hope that, whatever he says, all my hon. Friends will regard the matter as one which should be determined on its merits and according to their consciences and not on the basis of an edict issued from on high.
8.49 pm
Mr. Michael Hancock: This afternoon the Home Secretary put forward a very unconvincing argument in order to try to get his right hon. and hon. Friends to toe the party line. It is diabolical that anyone should try to test the water by putting a proposition before the House and then twisting the arms of his colleagues to ensure that he gets the answer he wants.
I happen to believe in the proposal to widen the opportunity for shopping on Sunday. People undoubtedly want a change, and more than one hon. Member has already said that recent opinion polls show that the population are in favour of such changes by a majority of two to one. I had hoped that the Home Secretary would respond to such opinion polls and to the feeling of the House and the country, and would try to do more to answer the questions worrying so many of us. Those questions have certainly not been answered so far. I refer to issues such as the protection of staff, the role of the traditional British Sunday and the part that religion has to play.
I shall try to show why I believe that there is a case for relaxing the regulations on Sunday trading. As has been pointed out, it is nonsense that people should be able to buy soft porn on a Sunday but not a bible, or a Chinese take-away but not fish and chips. We have also heard the argument about religion. I am proud to say that I am an active member of a church that has survived for 2,000 years, despite the slings and arrows of all sorts of evils. But I do not believe that my church or religion will fall apart because shops are allowed to trade on Sundays. Moreover, I do not think that the majority of those who go to church regularly feel that that will happen. I am sure that many of them will continue to go to church on Sundays and to go to the shop afterwards if they so wish.
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Some hon. Members have said that it is against their religious beliefs for people to have the freedom to decide what they want to do on the day that we all put aside as being somewhat different from the other six days of the week. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have spoken of the millions of people who are already committed to some form of Sunday working. I come from an area in which the economy survives because people are prepared to work on Sundays. The tourist trade in the south of England relies wholly on our ability to adjust to the demands of those who want that service. Tourist attraction after tourist attraction depends wholeheartedly on that commitment to work.
We do not want lukewarm policies such as those that we heard today from the Home Secretary. We want cast-iron guarantees that people's rights in employment will be protected and that the right to choose whether to work is given not only to those in employment now but to those who will become employed later. I believe that support for such cast-iron guarantees is widespread. We also need to consider consumers' needs. We need to think about the changing shape of the society in which we live and to realise that shopping patterns and our way of life have changed.
People undoubtedly want to use shopping facilities on Sundays and it is nonsense that we should take it upon ourselves today to deny them that opportunity. As has been said, we must also consider the protection of those who live closest to shopping centres. There are three shopping centres in my consituency which would rank as major centres. One, indeed, is a regional shopping centre. Thousands of people live close to them and for six days a week they have to tolerate that unholy alliance of their homes being close to major shopping centres. I do not relish the thought of telling those people that I want to impose such problems on them for another day. However, there is sufficient scope within existing planning laws—if they need to be tightened, they should be—to ensure that proper protection is given to them. The problem is not insurmountable. It should be recognised as a problem, and it can then be solved.
We must consider carefully what we are achieving this afternoon. I regret that the Government needed to whip in Conservative Members to support their motion. The merits of the case must stand or fall upon the individual's right to choose whether to support it, and hon. Members should not have to have the Government's boot put up their backsides in order not only to get them to the Chamber but to get them into the right Lobby. That is not in keeping with what I should have thought were the traditions of the House, and of this Government. But of course it is up to each retailer to choose whether to operate [Interruption.] Perhaps I have just made a Freudian slip. It is a pity that my right hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) did not come in at a more opportune moment.
It is up to the individual retailer to choose whether to open up for business. It is also for the public to choose whether to go shopping. I am sure that there will be a rush of people to open up on a Sunday once the legislation has been passed. But I am equally sure that over a period things will even out. People will operate on Sundays if that meets the demands of market forces and perhaps more shops will open at Christmas than during the rest of the year.

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A case has undoubtedly been made for giving people the opportunity to exercise that choice, but as I have said, I believe that my religion, which has survived 2,000 years, will not suffer irreparable damage as a result of any such legislation. I urge hon. Members not to fall into the trap of trying to convince themselves that such damage will be caused. We are faced with the opportunity to give a vast number of people the chance to make use of facilities that they should have had long ago. We cannot continue with a law that is abused and broken time and again by hundreds and thousands of people every Sunday. It is nonsense to allow such a law to persist. I urge right hon. and hon. Members to support the Government—for that reason and not because the Government have told them to do so.
8.56 pm
Mr. Nicholas Lyell: In the few minutes available to me I shall take up the remarks made by the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Hancock), because they lie at the centre of this debate. Reform of the law is long overdue. I welcome the Auld report all the more strongly because the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) did not even have the courage to say what the Labour party would do about the central issue in this debate: whether it would deregulate, maintain the existing law or just sit on the fence. The Labour party certainly did not say whether it would enforce the existing law.
At present, the law is unenforceable. Millions of offences are committed every Sunday in tens of thousands of retail establishments. We must decide now to regularise the position one way or another. I know that some of my hon. Friends and hon. Members opposite are profoundly sincere in their opposition to change, but the existing state of the law does nothing to enhance the moral position that they promote. Furthermore, I do not believe that the abolition of the fifth schedule to the Shops Act would have the disastrous effects which have been suggested on the traditional Sunday, which I also cherish; on the interests of shop workers for whom my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has implied that he will make safeguarding provisions, or on the position of small shopkeepers.
I speak for the garden centres on whose behalf I sought to promote a Bill about four years ago. It is nonsense that people should be able to sell vegetable seedlings only on the ground that they are part of the greengrocery trade and that they should be breaking the law if they sell a fork or a bag of peat. As several hon. Members have said, we can best illustrate how radical the effect of such a change would be on our society by making a comparison with those countries that have no such restrictions. For us, the best example must be Scotland. That country provides not a small sample, but a sample of 5–5 million people, some of whom — they are represented by the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart)—have such strong religious convictions that they do not open their shops anyway. But the majority of them, although rather better churchgoers than we are in England, trade a little on Sundays and reach a sensible balance that I am confident we shall reach if we are given the same opportunity.
We know that on 28 April 16 per cent. of shops opened in Scotland, although only 8 per cent. opened in town
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centres. Although 25 per cent. of people shopped in some way, only 1 per cent. did any major shopping, while the remainder topped up. About 98 per cent. of the population said that they were content with what was happening and were not inconvenienced. The same pattern applies to the United States — in Texas and in other states where Sunday trading is permitted and which have an excellent record of churchgoing.
The existing law brings itself into so much disrepute that no Government should stand by and leave it as it is indefinitely. Change with sensible safeguards will help the gentle change that is already occurring. It will not undercut the traditional values which I—and others of my hon. Friends, with misgivings—support.
9 pm
Mr. John Prescott: The debate has been excellent. The issues are fundamental and I shall state my opinions immediately. It is clear that our amendment is not acceptable to the Government. We are debating the motion on the Auld report with no qualification about the conditions of the workers who are affected by the proposed changes. That is the heart of the debate.
I am a traditionalist about Sunday. One of the bishops who gave evidence to the committee said that Sunday was a break in the week. I agree, as do many others. Many of us receive calls on a Sunday from people who apologise for ringing on a Sunday. That does not stop them from ringing, but they are conscious of intruding on Sunday. Sunday is different from the rest of the days in the week and it is important to maintain that difference.
I have been a Sunday worker. As a seaman I had to work seven days in a week. I have also worked in hotels, so I know that many people have to work seven days a week. I accept that some people have to work so that others can enjoy the luxury of our traditional Sunday.
I have also shopped on Sunday. I do not approach the question from a moral view, but I wish to retain the character of Sunday and that means that I do not want shops to open as if Sunday were the same as Monday or any other day of the week.
Hon. Members should be able to make their own judgment. I deplore that right not being given to Government Members. Those who have spoken out against the proposition have spoken for the House as a whole. Individuals should be able to make their own decision, although for some of us the issue is not one which involves conscience. That is a problem for the Government. Their members are subjected to a three-line Whip. They cannot vote against the motion unless they can prove that they have a conscientious objection to it. They have to pass that test before the Patronage Secretary will agree that they are fit to exercise that judgment.
The Auld report lists the many anomalies and the difficulties of enforcement which have been described by many right hon. and hon. Members. I am sorry that the report did not discuss in detail the 10-year Swedish experiment. At the end of that experiment, many people were still against extended trading hours, but the Swedish Government decided to maintain the open shop. The Government should see how important it is to maintain social conditions — premium hours at weekends, guaranteed overtime, holidays, meal times and other conditions which the Swedish Government believed to be important.

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It is crucial to maintain certain conditions. The Auld report said that wages council conditions should be maintained. As many hon. Members have said, the Government are actively considering the abolition of the wages councils indeed, they are notifying internation- ally that they are prepared to renounce that international obligation—the only country of the 94 countries which ratified that agreement to do so—and are leading the way for an attack on the low paid. That characterises much of our attitude towards the Auld report and the Government's motion.
We listened carefully to the Home Secretary, who said that he was prepared to listen to the views of the House and keep an open mind on wages councils. He said that he was prepared to depart from the conscience clause. He did not say how it would be implemented, but we await legislation. I do not believe that the Government have any intention of keeping an open mind — they are blabbering. I shall give evidence to support that view rather than simply make the point.
Mr. Lyell: On deregulation, do the Opposition support it, do they want to enforce the current law, do they want a halfway house or are they not able to say anything?
Mr. Prescott: The Opposition are prepared to operate a free vote on the main question, as we consider it to be a matter of conscience. I favour the traditional Sunday and would not want to see more shops open. However, there is a middle way. The committee funked the issue and did not take the opportunities presented to it. Amendments on the Order Paper take a middle course and people should reach their own decisions. We have, for example, debated abortion and left voting to the conscience of hon. Members, although Front Bench spokesmen have put thier point of view. It is an honourable tradition of the House.
The Home Secretary has said that the Government would try to find a way in which people could refuse to work on Sundays without penalty. He said that that would be for established workers, which we saw as a code phrase. Does it apply to both part-time and full-time workers? The majority of women workers in that industry are part time. The hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill) tabled an amendment, and when he spoke he quoted from the Auld report, saying that the committee thought that we could reflect the proposal put forward in Massachusetts, and that Massachusetts was not short of people wanting to work on Sunday. However, if he had continued to read from the report he would have seen the reason for that —because premium payments are available on a Sunday and people get additional money. That is why there is no difficulty in obtaining workers.
The committee says that it is concerned that there may be dismissals over this matter. It said:
"the provisions governing unfair dismissal in the Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act 1978 would in certain cases provide a safeguard".
That would have been true until most Conservative Members last week willingly trooped through the Lobby to reduce the rights of people who have been unfairly dismissed. Therefore, one of the protections envisaged in the report has been taken away.
When I hear the argument about conscience, I am reminded of a concern that does not express itself on conditions but simply on whether one is refusing to work
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on a Sunday. There is no equal concern about the maintenance of the premium payment, working so many' hours or the limits laid down in current legislation.
It seems to reflect the concern that was show n in the 19th century, when anxiety was expressed about women working in the pits—not because they were having to push heavy loads and were suffering physically but because miners were seeing naked women in the pits and it was thought that that would affect the moral fibre of the miners. Thus, legislation was introduced to stop women going down the pits. That action may have been said to have been motivated by concern and conscience. Frankly, the concern was not really about the conditions under which the women were working.
That is at the heart of our argument. The conditions that have been won for shop workers are crucial. Nor is it just a vested interest being raised. I have no vested interest in USDAW, my union being the National Union of Seamen. However, I worked in hotels and my wife was a hairdresser, so we have both worked in wages council industries and appreciate the conditions and wages that apply in such industries.
If one works and lives in a hotel, as I did, the thought of arguing with the manager about being given better wages or conditions does not arise because he can simply reply, "If you do not like the conditions and so on, get out." One's bed is in the hotel, and one has to make up one's mind whether to accept his terms or leave. That is one of the difficulties with the wages council industries and why those councils are important.
A method is necessary to govern the wages and conditions in certain industries because the unions have found it difficult to organise the workers in them. Unt:1 the Tory Government came to power, that principle was accepted by all previous Governments. Indeed, it has been pointed out that Winston Churchill introduced legislation in 1909 because he accepted that the good employers' conditions were undermined by the bad and that the had employers' conditions were undermined by those who were even worse.
That argument applies to wages councils now just as it applied to them at the turn of the century. One need only examine the wages and conditions in the industries concerned to see how vital the councils are. Wage rates determined under wages council terms are 50 to 60 per cent. of national average earnings. When one thinks of £50 and £60 being a weekly wage, mostly paid to women, many of them working part-time, one sees the problem in its proper perspective. Many of those employees are not working for pin money but for a family income. More and more of them are one-parent families.
We are talking about poverty in employment. If changes of the type that we are discussing were to be made without some statutory control, we should have more poverty in low-wage situations. Indeed, that seems to be part of Government policy. All their proposals appear to be geared to driving down wage levels. Their employment protection legislation seems designed to remove workers' rights that have been established over the years by various Governments, and not only by Labour Administrations. That is why tonight we are concentrating on the whole issue of workers' conditions.
The right hon. Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Oppenheim) said that she had not heard much about the consumer. She will be aware that much has been said

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about consumers wanting extended Sunday trading. I suggest that the reaction of the consumer depends on the way in which the question is phrased.
What would be the response if the question was asked, "Do you want Sunday trading, even if it resulted in wages going down from £60 to £50 or even £40, thus having it at the expense of the work force, particularly women?" Unfortunately, that is not the way in which the question is framed when polls are taken. Not many people would want the change if they knew that it would mean workers being exploited.
The Government say that they are listening to our arguments about wages councils and other matters. Frankly, I cannot believe that they will give serious attention to our views. Let us be clear that we are speaking of industries which employ many youngsters, a lot of them women and a great number of them part-timers.
The Government's deregulation approach is very much an American one. It seems that deregulation has become part of our language. Over the weekend an American gentleman appeared on our television screens talking about targeting unemployment benefit and social security benefit. That, too, is the Governnient's language. Their aim is to reduce social welfare benefits, and now they want deregulation of conditions within retailing. Deregulation is not confined to shop hours for it involves conditions of work.
The Government argue that the abolition of wages councils will lead to the creation of more jobs. It is claimed that there will be 5,000 more jobs if legislation is introduced to enable shops to open on Sundays. I accept that it is laudable for the Government to shape their policy to the creation of more jobs but the Government have been losing about 5,000 jobs a week since they came to office. That must be set against their concern to create 5,000 jobs.
Even if more jobs are created by shops opening on Sundays, a price will have to be paid. That is the factor that concerns the Opposition. The Government argue that individuals must price themselves into a job. They claim that many workers are overpaid and that the wages councils should be abolished. I have not yet heard a Minister argue that the councils should be abolished so that wages can increase to a proper level that will provide for incentives and generally for more money to be earned. The hon. Member for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) has said that wages are far too high and that we should abolish wages councils.
Mr. Rowe: I have never said that.
Mr. Prescott: The hon. Gentleman has often said that. He has been heard to say it by many Opposition Members. He has offered that opinion at Question Time and on other occasions.
Mr. Rowe: Words are being put in my mouth. I have never said that wages councils should be abolished. I am a member of a Select Committee which has specifically said that that should not happen. I call upon the hon. Gentleman to withdraw.
Mr. Prescott: If I have made a mistake, I unreservedly withdraw. I was distinctly under the impression that the hon. Gentleman had urged abolition, but I shall not argue about that. The hon. Gentleman has made his position clear and I withdraw unequivocally.
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I am thinking on my feet, but I remember that the hon. Member for Mid-Kent said that he would like to see a reduction of overtime payments for weekend work. Premium payments were one of the conditions laid down in the Swedish experiment. That is why the Swedes have come to live with longer hours. The hon. Gentleman argued for a reduction of the very benefits that are currently provided for in legislation. I certainly heard him say that this evening.
Mr. Dykes: If the hon. Gentleman feels so strongly about the proposals, will he explain why there will be a free vote on the motion, which will be contrary to USDAW's position, which appeared to be that of the Labour party, and a whipped vote only on the amendment?
Mr. Prescott: The amendment spells out our belief that an extension of working hours should not be at the expense of working conditions. The Government do not accept the amendment, so they are prepared to tolerate longer hours and conditions that will be adverse to workers. That is the heart of our case. The House will remember the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) about wages councils and the need for their position on conditions of work to be clarified. I agree that the time has come to make decisions and I have tried to make my position clear. I shall vote against the motion.
It is the Government's policy to reduce the standards and conditions of workers, especially in the wages council area. Their aim is to establish a lower wage structure and there is much evidence to support that contention. One piece of evidence is the proposed abolition of the wages councils. I think that the Government will admit that that is the direction in which their policy lies. I have read the evidence that was taken by the Select Committee on Employment. When the Secretary of State for Employment appeared before the Committee, he said that there was no evidence to establish whether more jobs had become available in the light of the proposal to abolish the councils. He said that it was too early to come to a judgment. However, it seems that the decision has been taken and we have heard from contractors who have been affected by the fair wage resolution that the Government's policy has led to a reduction in wages and conditions of employment.
Mr. Torney: Does my hon. Friend agree that the proposed free-for-all in Sunday trading highlights the issue of wages councils? This issue has been brought about by the imposition of Sunday trading on everyone. Legislation to this effect will be introduced later.
Mr. Prescott: This is the floodgate opening the way to that type of policy. If we accept these proposals, without a guarantee on conditions, the policy will not stop just at the shops. It will apply to the industries associated with the wages councils and, eventually, to all industries. This is part of the Government's policy to force down wage rates. There is no reason to be mealy-mouthed about this—every part of the policy is geared by the Government to achieve that end.
This policy did not come about during the past few months. I have been interested to read the various Cabinet Committee documents that have come to my hand. They involve the right hon. Member for Waveney (Mr. Prior) who fought a valiant fight against the unfair dismissal and wages council aspects of the Employment Act 1980. All

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his arguments to the Cabinet Employment Committee make it absolutely clear that he did not believe that the Conservatives should follow that route. He said:
"My conclusion therefore is that there is insufficient justification to amend the employment legislation further in favour of employers. Moreover, I believe that any attempt to do so would alienate large sections of the working population, trade unionists and others and would therefore be politically damaging to the Government."
That document was dated 17 July 1981. The right hon. Gentleman continued to argue the case with regard to wages councils. He got the Cabinet to agree that the wages councils should not be abolished, but was asked to investigate whether pan-time women and youngsters should be excluded from wages councils. The Home Secretary made a similar suggestion today. That policy emerged not from the Auld report but from the battle in Cabinet in 1981–82 by those so-called wets who were fighting against a policy to reduce the working and living conditions of the people in those industries. A report produced by the right hon. Member for Waveney made clear his view about the proposal to exclude women and youngsters from the wages councils awards. The document states:
"Young persons and part-timers … probably account for about half the total number of employees covered by wages councils. They are amongst the lowest-paid in the workforce. The majority are not trade unionists. A move to exclude them from minimum-level wage protection would be widely portrayed as an attack on those who are particularly vulnerable. Public sympathy would he readily enlisted on their behalf."
The right hon. Gentleman concluded:
"My conclusion is that the exclusion of young persons and part-time workers from the scope of wages councils would be unlikely to lead to more than a very marginal increase in job opportunities for these categories, and that largely at the expense of full-time adult jobs. I am in no doubt that the serious political and legislative difficulties of such a course would outweigh any conceivable benefits."
The right hon. Gentleman was right. Other documents concerning the same Cabinet Committee argue that case extremely well, showing the vindictive nature of such legislation. I am pleased that the right hon. Gentleman was able to convince the Cabinet. Unfortunately, the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) followed in the footsteps of the right hon. Member for Waveney.
Mr. James Prior: I do not know whether I was right or not. I do know that whoever leaked that information to the hon. Gentleman was wrong.
Mr. Prescott: The document has the right hon. Gentleman's name and the date appended to it. I am prepared to make it available to the right hon. Gentleman. I do not seek to do him an injustice. The issue is crucial. With the appointment of the right hon. Member for Chingford, the position changed—I have the document showing this—and the civil servants were ordered to bring about that change.
Sir Bernard Braine: I am following the hon. Gentleman's argument with great interest. I would not contest it for one moment when he talks about safeguarding the rights of workers. However, could he spare a brief moment, before he resumes his seat, to give us some indication of where the Labour Front Bench stands in respect of the erosion of Sunday? That is of enormous importance to his constituents as well as mine.
Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: It is ignored in the Labour party's amendment.
Mr. Prescott: I shall sum up on that point. [Interruption.] I have told Conservative Members twice, but I shall tell the particularly thick a third time when I sum up.
Mr. John Gorst: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it within your power to require the papers to which the hon. Gentleman has been referring to be made available to the whole House?
Mr. Speaker: That is not within my power. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) must take responsibility for what he has said.
Mr. Prescott: I immediately withdraw any implica- tions concerning you in my remarks, Mr. Speaker.
I should happily give the papers to which I referred to the Select Committee on Employment if it wishes to look at them. It has reported on the wages councils and it came to a contrary decision from that of the Government. The Committee said that we should not abolish the wages councils. It did not have to be influenced by those documents to reach that conclusion. It arrived at its own conclusion, and it was a majority decision. We in the Opposition welcome that, although the Government are not paying a great deal of attention to it.
The Opposition's point is that we believe that the measure is part of the Government's policy, which has been developing for a long time. It is designed to hit the lower income groups in our society, in particular. They are the ones who are most affected by the wages councils, particularly the retail councils. One thing has often puzzled me about the argument on wages councils. The Government announced that they proposed to give notice to ILO about abolishing the wages councils. Why did they not give notice to the agricultural workers wages council? That is another wages council convention. Notice had to be given by June of last year. I do not know whether the right hon. Member for Waveney, who is a farmer, knows why we exempted that area. We could have given it the same notification about the wages councils—
Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: Deal with Sunday.
Mr. Prescott: Without doubt, the policy on wages councils is about producing low-paid labour and low-wage conditions.
Let me make another prediction to the House. The youth training scheme, which is now being developed into a two-year scheme, is being developed on low wages. In the retail industries, part-time women and men on adult pay will be removed by cheap labour — youngsters coming out of the YTS. That is what is behind the policy. That is why we on the Labour Benches believe that this policy is just a stalking horse for the Government's policy to bring in more low wages. They are doing that when this weekend, in The Sunday Times, there was a report on the top 100 managers who last year had, on average, three times the average wage as a wage increase. To talk about a wages policy to reduce the low-income groups is totally unacceptable to the Opposition.
If the policy were accepted in its present form, without amendment, there would be more part-time labour, adding to the two-tier market. More youngsters would De taken out of the YTS and put into low-paid jobs. No guarantees would be given, as with the Swedish example and recommended in the Auld report. We in the Opposition do not believe that the Government are concerned about

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working conditions. They are concerned solely about reducing statutory employment benefits. All that is in the way of getting rid of rigidities in the market are the trade unions. Last year the miners were the enemy. This year it is the shop workers, the hairdressers and the agricultural workers — all those in low-paid areas covered by the wages councils. That is why we believe that for the Government to renounce an international obligation when 94 other nations are retaining it is a stain on our claim to be a civilised nation.
We ask the House to support the proposition that conditions in the industry should be retained and guaranteed, as our amendment requires—
Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: What about Sunday trading?
Mr. Prescott: We believe, like many Conservative Members, that the main motion is a matter of conscience, and not one for whipping hon. Members into line. We shall make that clear to the country tonight.
9.30 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Mellor): I hope that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) will forgive me if I do not follow the line of his speech. I feel that perhaps I should talk about the Auld report and the problems of Sunday trading.
It is an interesting comment on the fitness of the Opposition for government that the real problems with which the enforcement of the law confronts my right hon. and learned Friend should have been wholly ignored in the course of an hour and a quarter's argument from the Opposition spokesmen.
The Auld committee was set up in the wake of the debate on the Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. Whitney), and its members were invited to consider not whether changes should be made to the Shops Acts but what changes should be made. It has been common ground during the debate that the 1950 Act is riddled with anomalies and had to be changed. The issue before us is whether we accept the Auld committee's view that the law not only does not command general acceptance but has brought the generality of the criminal law into disrepute and should be swept away. We would be in a better position to make progress in the debate if the Opposition had coherently explained how they would resolve the anomalies created by the legislation.
The committee comprised three people of great distinction. Those people were aided in their work by six assessors. The assessors were carefully drawn from the interest groups who would be most affected by any change to the 1950 Act. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for St. Helens, North (Mr. Evans) says that they got it wrong. If the assessors got it wrong, the implication must be that Mr. Flood of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers got it wrong, Miss Head of the National Chamber of Trade and Lord Gallacher of the Co-operative Union got it wrong. The assessors were there to assess the evidence, and none of them has complained that the Auld committee was parti pris —that it was not wide enough. This is another regrettable example of a desire to call into question those who have conducted an inquiry when the inquiry does not produce the desired results.
Mr. Sheerman: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Minister is misleading the House about the relationship of the assessors to the report. Their position was not as he states.
Mr. Speaker: I cannot accept that point of order. The Minister must take responsibility for his own speech.
Mr. Mellor: The committee's report is the report of the committee. To hear what the Opposition have said today, one would think that evidence was not being put to the members of the committee by people whose job it was to put a different gloss on that evidence if they thought it appropriate to do so.
It seems that the Opposition have chosen to throw over the Auld report, although their amendment would lead us to believe that they are concerned about employment conditions but would not seek to challenge the central thrust of the report. If they wish to throw over the findings of the report, they must do so on a better basis. Contemptuously to toss on one side the whole report is not enough. Manifestly, the report cannot be dismissed. Three able people were engaged in it. The six assessors had the right to put whatever points they wished, and that is what they did.
Mr. Stanbrook: Why does my hon. Friend give the impression that the six assessors signed, or approved of, the report?
Mr. Mellor: I have not said that they signed it. I said that the assessors were there and that they were putting, their gloss on the evidence as it came forward. The fact that they were there and participated—
Mr. Foulkes: They were ignored.
Mr. Mellor: —and the fact that they have not called the inquiry into question —
Mr. Foulkes: Yes, they have.
Mr. Mellor: —as have some Opposition Members, suggests that the Auld report is worthy of much more consideration than it has received from the Opposition today.
We are discussing not whether there should be Sunday trading, but the extent of Sunday trading and whether any common-sense division can be drawn between those activities that are allowed on Sunday under current law and those that are not. It is unfortunate that the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) did not tell us where he stands on Sunday trading or give us any idea of a collective view. There is the world of difference between a collective view in the shadow Cabinet—
Mr. Jack Straw: There is a free vote on this side.
Mr. Mellor: A Cabinet cannot be run on free votes.
The other word that was missing from the right hon. Gentleman's speech —
Mr. Straw: Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Mellor: No.
The word that was missing from the right hon. Gentleman's speech and which was missing from that of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) was "customer". The customer's views are worth considering, but any such consideration was lacking in

819
anything that Opposition Members said. When the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Torney) mentioned the customer, it was in dismissive terms.
Mr. Heifer: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Mellor: I shall in a minute.
The hon. Member for Bradford, South speaks for the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers. It is not without note that five of the seven Back-Bench Members who have spoken for the Labour party have a relationship with USDAW or the Co-op. There might be a free vote—
Mr. Sheerman rose —
Mr. Mellor: —but there is precious little evidence of free thinking on this issue.
Mr. Sheerman rose —
Mr. Speaker: Order. The speech of the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) was heard in silence. If the Minister does not give way, the hon. Member must restrain himself.
Mr. Mellor: The debate on the Bill proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe provided an opportunity for the House to take the Bill into Committee, as everyone who spoke in that debate agreed that there were grave anomalies in the law. That was not done. In that debate, the hon. Member for Bradford, South pleaded with the Secretary of State to have a public inquiry. We have now had that public inquiry and the Government are inviting the House to endorse the recommendations of that public inquiry as the only cogent way in which to see our way through a difficult problem which has bedevilled the administration of criminal law for many years.
Mr. Kaufman: The hon. Gentleman says that the Government are inviting the House to endorse the recommendations of the inquiry, but they are not. They are inviting the House to endorse one of the recommendations —deregulation—but to ignore the recommendation to retain the wages council. The hon. Gentleman said "endorse the recommendations". Will the Government now say that they accept the Auld recommendation for the retention of the wages council?
Mr. Mellor: Our stance on the wages council was made clear by my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary. Its future is under consideration. The fact that the Auld committee has recommended that it be retained in retailing is a matter that will be borne in mind when the evaluation takes place, and it will be given the appropriate weight. It would be nonsense for the Government to announce a full-scale review of wages councils throughout industry and then to take a particular line on the future of the wages council for retailing.
Mr. Heifer: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House, because I feel that the entire country wants to know, whether the Government are now deciding to abandon the traditional values of Sunday? May we be given a clear answer? Is that their intention? If so, will they spell out why they are doing this to something that has been built up over hundreds of years?
Mr. Mellor: There is no question of the traditional British Sunday being thrown over. We are saying that we should trust the people to make their decision — [Interruption] —and that the arbitrary intervention of the criminal law should not come into the matter.
820
After 19 attempts to change these arrangements in the House, it is time that the House took a view one way or the other. The arrangements into which the Patronage Secretary has entered enable that to be done once and for all.
Mr. Gorst: Will my hon. Friend make it clear whether he is arguing that the issue of principle, on which some hon. Members have a sense of conscience, has already been decided, or whether this is the first occasion on which that matter of principle is being decided? If that is the case, will he explain why on this unique occasion, and without precedent, we are being dragooned to vote in favour of the business?
Mr. Mellor: The Government have placed a three-line Whip on the business, but those with genuine conscientious objections do not have to vote for it. [Interruption.] What is important is that the House has the opportunity to determine the way forward for a piece of legislation on which, whatever the jeering, a decision must be taken.
Mrs. Kellett-Bowman rose —
Mr. Mellor: I shall give way to my hon. Friend in a moment. The criminal law occupies too significant a place for us to permit a law to continue when on all sides it is acknowledged that it is riddled with anomalies. The question facing us is one of detail — whether it is possible to have a halfway house or whether there must be complete deregulation.
Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: Will my hon. Friend seek to ascertain from the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) where he stands on the subject of Sunday, which he entirely ignored? He dealt only with the materialistic points of the resolution, and not with the value of Sunday to the family.
Mr. Sheerman: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it within your remit to send for the Conservative Whip and for the Whips of the Opposition parties, so that the whole country may know that the Opposition have a free vote on a principle of conscience, whereas the Conservative party do not?
Mr. Speaker: If the whole country reads the newspapers, it will know that.
Mr. Mellor: We know that the arrangements for late evening shopping were introduced in 1916 to save coal during the first world war, and that they are not in keeping with the views of any hon. Members in the House tonight. We also know that the Shops Act 1950 was a consolidation measure and came after the Gowers report of 1947 recommended the consolidation of the existing statute. However, as long ago as 1947 the Gowers report said, first, that it was time for the public to be given consideration, and that for too long shops legislation had been dealing only with the welfare of shop assistants; and secondly, that the exemptions were such that even at that time the law was being brought into disrepute.
Our problem is that successive Governments have failed to implement all but one of the three recommendations of the Gowers report. That issue will not disappear, as successive attempts to change it in the House have made clear. In trying to steer its way through an increasingly tangled web, the Auld committee adopted two points of principle, which I commend to my hon.

821
Friends. First, the law should not interfere in the conduct of human affairs unless it serves a justifiable purpose in doing so. Secondly, even if there are interests with a justifiable need for protection, could legislation be devised to achieve that end?
The Shops Act is a singular piece of criminal law. The criminal offence is to sell during prohibited hours unless the place or the article qualifies under one of the exemption provisions. The exemption provisions are derided and widely ignored. The anomalies are so acute that it is impossible for a shop that opens on Sundays—we know that hundreds and thousands do every Sunday — to trade legally, because if there are distinctions between pies, buns, sausages and kippers on the one hand, and tea and flour on the other—[Interruption] It is no good Opposition Members sneering. The fact is that every shop that opens on Sundays is almost certainly trading outside the law. It is our job to rescue the law from its present state and to replace it with a fresh law that will allow the criminal law and the administration of justice to proceed properly.
As to enforcement, the number of convictions in recent years has in no way reflected the scale of abuse. In our large cities there have been minimal attempts to enforce a law in which no one believes, least of all the Association of District Councils. Some people have suggested, almost as though the Government had a choice as to whether they should take on the issue, that we must have a duty to those whom Parliament has decreed should be responsible primarily for enforcing the law. In April 1982, the Association of District Councils made clear its view, which it subsequently endorsed in a way that should commend itself to the consideration of the House.
The association originally believed that the law could be rationalised by the elimination of anomalies, but it has since reconsidered, and has come to the conclusion that the removal of one anomaly could easily lead to another, as was pointed out in the excellent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West (Mr. Robinson). Since the association recognised — only one hon. Member who spoke in the debate seems not to have recognised it—that imposing a full ban on Sunday trading would not find favour, the only satisfactory solution is to remove all restrictions on Sunday opening. Those whom we have asked to enforce the law have reached a conclusion similar to the one in the Auld report.
The impetus for change has been spurred by two difficulties that lie in the way of the law remaining ignored. The first is the decision of the Court of Appeal in 1983 giving local authorities the power to obtain injunctions against stores breaking the law. The second is the 1982 case in which the Divisional Court held that someone aggrieved — not the local authority — about Sunday trading could compel the local authority to take action by way of an order of mandamus. That is why it is impossible for the Government to overlook the chaotic state of the 1950 Act any longer.
The impact on trade and employees is a matter of controversy. The Institute for Fiscal Studies made predictions based on models that cannot give us the entire answer to the problem, because they were based on the assumption that there was currently no Sunday trading. However, there is Sunday trading in almost every town and village in the country. Therefore, the model is flawed
822
in that respect. Another basic assumption was that there would be no growth in retail demand, but many retailers are only too willing and eager to prove that wrong.
The Institute for Fiscal Studies concluded:
"It is unlikely that in any of the areas we have considered —costs, prices, employment, trading patterns—there would be effects which would be of sufficient magnitude to be distinguished readily from the other changes which would be occurring as a result of other influences on the style and structure of British retailing."
We know that the retailing sector is buoyant and dynamic, and that there have been considerable changes in the size of the retail work force. Therefore, any of the likely consequences will be at the margin. In June 1980, the retail work force was 2·1 million. By June 1982 it was down to 2 million. By the end of 1984 it was up to 2·2 million, so we know that the retail sector is accustomed to taking up and shedding labour. We know that there is scope not just for full-time employment but for part-time employment. We cannot deride full-time employment when we know that 40 per cent. of the work force are women. Those who rightly adhere to the principle of family life feel particularly strongly that women in the work force are entitled to work part-time and that that might be in the best interests of their families.
Sir Kenneth Lewis: Will my hon. Friend look at the Auld report, paragraph 206, page 173:
"Our conclusion that, in the long term, Sunday working would slightly reduce retailing employment"?
If it will not increase employment, and the committee does not believe that it will, is Sunday working worth the candle?
Mr. Mellor: As I have already said, that is based on the assumption, first, that there is no Sunday trading at the moment, when manifestly there is, and, secondly, that there will be no growth in retail turnover. We believe that there will be growth. The law needs to be reformed. The only point at issue is how. We know that there will be no economic catastrophe and that the probability is that there will be economic gain by a reform of the law.
The question to which I now turn is that which exercises most hon. Members: whether by reforming the Shops Act 1950 we shall be in any danger of detracting from the qualities of the British Sunday that we all respect. There are those hon. Members who believe that religious observance dictates that Sunday should be a different day. Most of us, whether or not we are active churchgoers, accept that principle. However, I ask those hon. Members who take that view to have regard to what was said by the Bishop of Birmingham on behalf of the Church of England board for social responsibility:
"In a society where in most areas not more than 10 per cent. of the population attend public worship on Sunday, people would hardly be prevented from going to church if Sunday opening were allowed. It is important for Christians to avoid hypocrisy in these matters."
Christians who feel that they wish to observe Sunday in their own way should not feel the need to dictate to others, but many churchgoers take the view not just that it matters but that they wish to keep the quality of Sunday for the benefit of others.
The important point that needs to be borne in mind is that when we look at the impact of Sunday trading in other countries we do not find that the traditional values of Sunday in those countries have been lost. We simply cannot ignore the evidence of Scotland. The evidence is

823
that while, in communities like those represented by the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart), shops do not open because the communities do not wish it and the shopkeepers therefore do not feel that it is appropriate to open on Sunday, in Edinburgh and Glasgow some shops open while others do not. There is no monochrome, follow-my-leader approach. On 28 April only 16 per cent. of the shops were open, and according to the public survey that was conducted last month by MORI—
Mr. Fairbairn: Does the Minister appreciate that in Scotland, which has always had Sunday trading, there is more churchgoing than in England, and that in Catholic France, which has always had Sunday trading, there has always been a great deal of churchgoing? There is no difficulty in Scotland over Sunday trading. Therefore, those who adopt a priggish view are defiling the whole concept of Christianity.
Mr. Mellor: It is important that we should recognise that 84 per cent. of those questioned by MORI in Scotland by last month do not want the law changed back to the sort of restrictions that exist in England, and that 98 per cent. said that they were not inconvenienced in the slightest by Sunday trading.
When we consider what sort of Sunday we want, we should bear in mind that, whatever we as legislators think, the question whether the traditional values of Sunday will be preserved will be determined by the people, whatever the criminal law may say. That is why The Times was so right to say in an editorial in November:
"A society which needs a day which is special can surely be trusted to keep it special and how it wishes without being compelled by the criminal law."
Mr. Cormack: Will my hon. Friend acknowledge that he is proposing not a reform of the laws, but their abolition? Secondly, if he can trust the people, why cannot he trust us? Is this an issue of conscience?
Mr. Mellon: For some people, it is an issue of conscience and for others it is a matter of hard practicalities and whether the criminal law can be allowed to slip into the derision into which it has slipped in this area. How to restore the credibility of the law is a matter for hard decisions. My hon. Friend tabled an amendment and I am sure that he would not say that conscience determined his decision about the size of shops that should be allowed to open on a Sunday. That is a practical matter. The limit would be arbitrary and the incentive for employers to employ would be reduced by an artificial restriction on the number of employees allowed in a shop that could open on Sunday. That is a matter of hard practicality.
The key to all this is whether there is a halfway house. The pattern of Sunday trading laws has revealed a constant movement away from the principle that there should be no trading on Sunday through the hard recognition that people are willing to buy whatever shopkeepers are prepared to open to sell. That is what happened in 1855, when there were demonstrations in the streets against the Sunday trading laws. The quaint Sunday markets which are a part of the traditional British Sunday were the way in which the populace of London cocked a snook at the Sunday trading laws.
The 1936 law that is the basis for the anomalies in the 1950 Act was based on what goods were needed by people indulging in the then popular weekend pastime of a
824
charabanc ride to Brighton or another seaside resort. One was able to buy gin. Tonic had not been invented, so one had to drink gin neat to cover one's disappointment at a rainy day by the seaside.
Are we as legislators to say that the list of exemptions that was right for charabanc outings to the seaside should be updated because we feel that we have the key today? Or shall we say that in a mature democracy shops should be allowed to open when they choose? The fact that the powers are not always taken up will mean that shops will determine when it is profitable for them to open, and that question will be determined by whether there are customers to go to the shops.
If there are customers to go to the shops, is it the business of this or any other Government to say that the criminal law will stop transactions merely because they take place on Sunday, a situation to which others object, often for reasons that have a lot to do with wordly considerations, though I respect the fact that some see these as matters of conscience? We cannot have any truck with that. We believe that the Sunday trading laws have had their day and that the only alternative that faces us is, indeed, to trust the people and to let them shop ix hen they want.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 178, Noes 321.

Division No. 212]

[10 pm

AYES

Abse, Leo

Dormand, Jack

Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

Douglas, Dick

Alton, David

Dover, Den

Anderson, Donald

Duffy, A. E. P.

Archer, Rt Hon Peter

Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

Ashton, Joe

Eadie, Alex

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Eastham, Ken

Barnett, Guy

Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE)

Beckett, Mrs Margaret

Evans, John (St. Helens N)

Beith, A. J.

Fatchett, Derek

Bell, Stuart

Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)

Benn, Tony

Fisher, Mark

Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)

Flannery, Martin

Bermingham, Gerald

Foot, Rt Hon Michael

Bidwell, Sydney

Forrester, John

Blair, Anthony

Foster, Derek

Boothroyd, Miss Betty

Foulkes, George

Boyes, Roland

Fraser, J. (Norwood)

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E)

Freud, Clement

Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

George, Bruce

Bruce, Malcolm

Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

Caborn, Richard

Godman, Dr Norman

Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)

Golding, John

Campbell, Ian

Gould, Bryan

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Gourlay, Harry

Canavan, Dennis

Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

Carl Me, Alexander (Montg'y)

Hancock, Mr. Michael

Carter-Jones, Lewis

Harman, Ms Harriet

Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

Clarke, Thomas

Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

Clay, Robert

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Healey, Rt Hon Denis

Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.)

Heffer, Eric S.

Cohen, Harry

Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall)

Cook, Robin F. (Livingston)

Home Robertson, Join

Cowans, Harry

Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

Craigen, J. M.

Howells, Geraint

Crowther, Stan

Hughes, Dr. Mark (Durham)

Cunningham, Dr John

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l)

Hughes, Roy (Newport East)

Deakins, Eric

Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)

Dewar, Donald

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Dixon, Donald

Irving, Charles

Question accordingly negatived.
Main Question put: —
The House divided: Ayes 304, Noes 184

Division No. 212]

[10 pm

AYES

Abse, Leo

Dormand, Jack

Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

Douglas, Dick

Alton, David

Dover, Den

Anderson, Donald

Duffy, A. E. P.

Archer, Rt Hon Peter

Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

Ashton, Joe

Eadie, Alex

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Eastham, Ken

Barnett, Guy

Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE)

Beckett, Mrs Margaret

Evans, John (St. Helens N)

Beith, A. J.

Fatchett, Derek

Bell, Stuart

Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)

Benn, Tony

Fisher, Mark

Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)

Flannery, Martin

Bermingham, Gerald

Foot, Rt Hon Michael

Bidwell, Sydney

Forrester, John

Blair, Anthony

Foster, Derek

Boothroyd, Miss Betty

Foulkes, George

Boyes, Roland

Fraser, J. (Norwood)

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E)

Freud, Clement

Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

George, Bruce

Bruce, Malcolm

Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

Caborn, Richard

Godman, Dr Norman

Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)

Golding, John

Campbell, Ian

Gould, Bryan

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Gourlay, Harry

Canavan, Dennis

Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

Carl Me, Alexander (Montg'y)

Hancock, Mr. Michael

Carter-Jones, Lewis

Harman, Ms Harriet

Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

Clarke, Thomas

Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

Clay, Robert

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Healey, Rt Hon Denis

Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.)

Heffer, Eric S.

Cohen, Harry

Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall)

Cook, Robin F. (Livingston)

Home Robertson, Join

Cowans, Harry

Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

Craigen, J. M.

Howells, Geraint

Crowther, Stan

Hughes, Dr. Mark (Durham)

Cunningham, Dr John

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l)

Hughes, Roy (Newport East)

Deakins, Eric

Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)

Dewar, Donald

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Dixon, Donald

Irving, Charles

Janner, Hon Greville

Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

John, Brynmor

Prescott, John

Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

Radice, Giles

Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

Randall, Stuart

Kilfedder, James A.

Redmond, M.

Kilroy-Silk, Robert

Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S)

Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

Richardson, Ms Jo

Kirkwood, Archy

Robertson, George

Lamond, James

Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)

Leadbitter, Ted

Robinson, P. (Belfast E)

Leighton, Ronald

Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Rowlands, Ted

Lewis, Terence (Worsley)

Ryman, John

Litherland, Robert

Sheerman, Barry

Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

Shore, Rt Hon Peter

Loyden, Edward

Short, Mrs H. (W'hampt'n NE)

McCartney, Hugh

Silkin, Rt Hon J.

McDonald, Dr Oonagh

Skinner, Dennis

McKay, Allen (Penistone)

Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury)

MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'kl'ds E)

Maclennan, Robert

Snape, Peter

McTaggart, Robert

Soley, Clive

McWilliam, John

Spearing, Nigel

Madden, Max

Steel, Rt Hon David

Marek, Dr John

Strang, Gavin

Marshall, David (Shettleston)

Straw, Jack

Martin, Michael

Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)

Mason, Rt Hon Roy

Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)

Maynard, Miss Joan

Thome, Stan (Preston)

Meacher, Michael

Tinn, James

Meadowcroft, Michael

Torney, Tom

Michie, William

Wainwright, R.

Mikardo, Ian

Wallace, James

Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

Warden, Gareth (Gower)

Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

Wareing, Robert

Nellist, David

Weetch, Ken

Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

Welsh, Michael

O'Brien, William

Wigley, Dafydd

O'Neill, Martin

Williams, Rt Hon A.

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Winnick, David

Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

Young, David (Bolton SE)

Park, George

Patchett, Terry

Tellers for the Ayes

Pavitt, Laurie

Mr. Frank Haynes and

Penhaligon, David

Mr. Robin Corbett.

NOES

Adley, Robert

Brooke, Hon Peter

Aitken, Jonathan

Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes)

Alexander, Richard

Browne, John

Amery, Rt Hon Julian

Bryan, Sir Paul

Ancram, Michael

Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A.

Arnold, Tom

Buck, Sir Antony

Ashby, David

Budgen, Nick

Aspinwall, Jack

Burt, Alistair

Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H.

Butcher, John

Atkins, Robert (South Ribble)

Butler, Hon Adam

Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)

Butterfill, John

Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y)

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S)

Baldry, Tony

Cash, William

Batiste, Spencer

Chalker, Mrs Lynda

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Bellingham, Henry

Chope, Christopher

Bendall, Vivian

Churchill, W. S.

Benyon, William

Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n)

Best, Keith

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Bevan, David Gilroy

Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Clegg, Sir Walter

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Cockeram, Eric

Bottomley, Peter

Colvin, Michael

Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

Coombs, Simon

Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n)

Cope, John

Boyson, Dr Rhodes

Corrie, John

Brandon-Bravo, Martin

Cranborne, Viscount

Bright, Graham

Critchley, Julian

Brinton, Tim

Crouch, David

Brittan, Rt Hon Leon

Currie, Mrs Edwina

Dickens, Geoffrey

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Dicks, Terry

Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

Dorrell, Stephen

Kershaw, Sir Anthony

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

Key, Robert

du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward

King, Roger (B'ham N'field)

Dunn, Robert

King, Rt Hon Tom

Durant, Tony

Knight, Gregory (Derby N)

Dykes, Hugh

Knowles, Michael

Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)

Knox, David

Eggar, Tim

Lamont, Norman

Emery, Sir Peter

Lang, Ian

Evennett, David

Lawler, Geoffrey

Eyre, Sir Reginald

Lawrence, Ivan

Fairbairn, Nicholas

Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

Fallon, Michael

Lee, John (Pendle)

Farr, Sir John

Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

Favell, Anthony

Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

Fenner, Mrs Peggy

Lester, Jim

Fletcher, Alexander

Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd)

Fookes, Miss Janet

Lightbown, David

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Lilley, Peter

Forth, Eric

Lloyd, Ian (Havant)

Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham)

Fox, Marcus

Lord, Michael

Franks, Cecil

Luce, Richard

Fraser, Peter (Angus East)

Lyell, Nicholas

Fry, Peter

McCrindle, Robert

Gale, Roger

McCurley, Mrs Anna

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Macfarlane, Neil

Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

MacGregor, John

Glyn, Dr Alan

MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute)

Goodhart, Sir Philip

Maclean, David John

Goodlad, Alastair

McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)

Gow, Ian

McQuarrie, Albert

Griffiths, E. (B'y St Edmds)

Madel, David

Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N)

Major, John

Grist, Ian

Malins, Humfrey

Ground, Patrick

Malone, Gerald

Grylls, Michael

Maples, John

Gummer, John Selwyn

Marland, Paul

Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)

Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Mates, Michael

Hampson, Dr Keith

Maude, Hon Francis

Hanley, Jeremy

Mawhinney, Dr Brian

Hannam, John

Mayhew, Sir Patrick

Hargreaves, Kenneth

Mellor, David

Harvey, Robert

Merchant, Piers

Haselhurst, Alan

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

Miller, Hal (B'grove)

Hawksley, Warren

Mills, lain (Meriden)

Hayes, J.

Miscampbell, Norman

Hayward, Robert

Mitchell, David (NW Hants)

Heath, Rt Hon Edward

Moate, Roger

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Monro, Sir Hector

Henderson, Barry

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

Moore, John

Hickmet, Richard

Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)

Hicks, Robert

Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

Moynihan, Hon C.

Hind, Kenneth

Neale, Gerrard

Hirst, Michael

Needham, Richard

Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

Nelson, Anthony

Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling)

Neubert, Michael

Holt, Richard

Newton, Tony

Hordern, Peter

Nicholls, Patrick

Howard, Michael

Normanton, Tom

Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)

Norris, Steven

Howarth, Gerald (Cannock)

Oppenheim, Phillip

Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.

Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)

Osborn, Sir John

Hubbard-Miles, Peter

Ottaway, Richard

Hunt, David (Wirral)

Page, Richard (Herts SW)

Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

Hunter, Andrew

Parris, Matthew

Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abdgn)

Jackson, Robert

Pattie, Geoffrey

Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

Pawsey, James

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Pollock, Alexander

Jones, Robert (W Herts)

Portillo, Michael

Powell, Wiliiam (Corby)

Stewart, Ian (N Hertf'dshire)

Powley, John

Stradling Thomas, J.

Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

Sumberg, David

Price, Sir David

Taylor, John (Solihull)

Prior, Rt Hon James

Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

Raffan, Keith

Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

Raison, Rt Hon Timotny

Temple-Morris, Peter

Rathbone, Tim

Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.

Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover)

Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

Renton, Tim

Thompson, Donald (Calder V)

Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)

Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

Thornton, Malcolm

Rippor, Rt Hon Geoffrey

Thurnham, Peter

Roberts. Wyn (Conwy)

Townend, John (Bridlington)

Robinson, Mark (N'port W)

Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)

Roe, Mrs Marion

Tracey, Richard

Rossi, Sir Hugh

Trippier, David

Rost, Peter

Trotter, Neville

Rowe, Andrew

Twinn, Dr Ian

Rumbold, Mrs Angela

van Straubenzee, Sir W.

Ryder, Richard

Vaughan, Sir Gerard

Sackville, Hon Thomas

Viggers, Peter

Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

Waddington, David

St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

Wakeham, Rt Hon John

Sayeed, Jonathan

Waldegrave, Hon William

Scott, Nicholas

Walden, George

Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)

Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

Wall, Sir Patrick

Shelton, William (Streatham)

Waller, Gary

Shepherd. Colin (Hereford)

Walters, Dennis

Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

Ward, John

Silvester, Fred

Wardle, C. (Bexhill)

Sims, Roger

Watson, John

Skeet, T. H. H.

Watts, John

Smith, Tim (Beaconsfieid)

Wells, Bowen (Hertford)

Soames, Hon Nicholas

Wells, Sir John (Maidstone)

Speed, Keith

Wheeler, John

Speller, Tony

Whitney, Raymond

Spence, John

Wiggin, Jerry

Spencer, Derek

Winterton, Mrs Ann

Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

Wolfson, Mark

Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

Wood, Timothy

Squire, Robin

Woodcock, Michael

Steen, Anthony

Yeo, Tim

Stern, Michael

Young, Sir George (Acton)

Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)

Younger, Rt Hon George

Stevens, Martin (Fulham)

Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

Tellers for the Noes:

Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)

Mr. Carol Mather and

Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

Mr. Robert Boscawen.

Division No. 213]

[10.15 pm

AYES

Adley, Robert

Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Aitken, Jonathan

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Alexander, Richard

Bottomley, Peter

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

Amery, Rt Hon Julian

Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n)

Ancram, Michael

Boyson, Dr Rhodes

Arnold, Tom

Brandon-Bravo, Martin

Ashby, David

Bright, Graham

Aspinwall, Jack

Brinton, Tim

Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H.

Brittan, Rt Hon Leon

Atkins, Robert (South Ribble)

Brooke, Hon Peter

Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)

Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes)

Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Vall'y)

Browne, John

Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

Bruce, Malcolm

Baldry, Tony

Bryan, Sir Paul

Batiste, Spencer

Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A.

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Buck, Sir Antony

Bellingham, Henry

Budgen, Nick

Bendall, Vivian

Butcher, John

Best, Keith

Butterfill, John

Bevan, David Gilroy

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S)

Cash, William

Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

Chalker, Mrs Lynda

Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling)

Channon, Rt hon Paul

Hordern. Peter

Chope, Christopher

Howard, Michael

Churchill, W. S.

Howarth, Alan (Stratr'd-on-A)

Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n)

Howarth. Gerald (Cannock)

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)

Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

Hubbard-Miles, Peter

Cockeram, Eric

Hunt, David (Wirral)

Colvin, Michael

Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

Coombs, Simon

Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

Cope, John

Irving, Charles

Corrie, John

Jackson, Robert

Cranborne, Viscount

Jenkin. Rt Hon Patrick

Critchley, Julian

John, Brynmor

Crouch, David

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Currie, Mrs Edwina

Jones, Robert (W Herts)

Dickens, Geoffrey

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Dicks, Terry

Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

Dorrell, Stephen

Kershaw, Sir Antnony

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

King, Roger (B'ham N'field)

du Cann, Rt Hon Sir Edward

King, Rt Hon Tom

Dunn, Robert

Kirkwood, Archy

Durant, Tony

Knight, Gregory (Deroy N)

Dykes, Hugh

Knowles, Michael

Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)

Knox, David

Eggar, Tim

Lamont, Norman

Emery, Sir Peter

Lang, Ian

Evennett, David

Lawler, Geoffrey

Eyre, Sir Reginald

Lawrence, Ivan

Fairbairn, Nicholas

Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

Fallon, Michael

Lee, John (Pendle)

Farr, Sir John

Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

Favell, Anthony

Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

Fenner, Mrs Peggy

Lightbown, David

Fletcher, Alexander

Lilley, Peter

Fookes, Miss Janet

Lloyd, Ian (Havant)

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham)

Forth, Eric

Luce, Richard

Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

Lyell, Nicholas

Fox. Marcus

McCrindle, Robert

Franks, Cecil

McCurley, Mrs Anna

Fraser, Peter (Angus East)

Macfarlane, Neil

Freud, Clement

MacGregor, John

Fry, Peter

MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute)

Garel-Jones, Tristan

McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)

Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

McQuarrie, Albert

Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

Madel, David

Glyn, Dr Alan

Major, John

Goodhart, Sir Philip

Malone, Gerald

Goodlad, Alastair

Maples, John

Gow, Ian

Marland, Paul

Griffiths, E. (B'y St Edm'ds)

Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N)

Mates, Michael

Grist, Ian

Maude, Hon Francis

Ground, Patrick

Mayhew, Sir Patrick

Grylls, Michael

Meadowcroft, Michael

Gummer, John Selwyn

Mellor, David

Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)

Merchant, Piers

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Hampson, Dr Keith

Miller, Hal (B'grove)

Hancock, Mr. Michael

Mills, lain (Meriden)

Hanley, Jeremy

Miscampbell, Norman

Harvey, Robert

Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

Haselhurst, Alan

Mitchell, David (NW Hants)

Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

Monro, Sir Hector

Hawksley, Warren

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Hayes, J.

Moore, John

Hayhoe, Barney

Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)

Hayward, Robert

Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

Heath, Rt Hon Edward

Moynihan, Hon C.

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Neale, Gerrard

Henderson, Barry

Needham, Richard

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

Nelson, Anthony

Hickmet, Richard

Neubert, Michael

Hicks, Robert

Newton, Tony

Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

Nicholls, Patrick

Hind, Kenneth

Normanton, Tom

Hirst, Michael

Norris, Steven

Oppenheim, Phillip

Squire, Robin

Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.

Steen, Anthony

Osborn, Sir John

Stern, Michael

Ottaway, Richard

Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)

Page, Richard (Herts SW)

Stevens, Martin (Fulham)

Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

Parris, Matthew

Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)

Patten, J. (Oxf W & Abdgn)

Stewart, Ian (N Hertf'dshire)

Pattie, Geoffrey

Stradling Thomas, J.

Pawsey, James

Sumberg, David

Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian

Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

Pollock, Alexander

Temple-Morris, Peter

Portillo, Michael

Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.

Powell, William (Corby)

Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

Powley, John

Thompson, Donald (Calder V)

Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)

Price, Sir David

Thurnham, Peter

Prior, Rt Hon James

Townend, John (Bridlington)

Raffan, Keith

Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

Tracey, Richard

Rathbone, Tim

Trippier, David

Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover)

Trotter, Neville

Renton, Tim

Twinn, Dr Ian

Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

Viggers, Peter

Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

Waddington, David

Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)

Wakeham, Rt Hon John

Robinson, Mark (N'port W)

Waldegrave, Hon William

Roe, Mrs Marion

Walden, George

Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)

Rossi, Sir Hugh

Wall, Sir Patrick

Rost, Peter

Waller, Gary

Rowe, Andrew

Walters, Dennis

Rumbold, Mrs Angela

Ward, John

Ryder, Richard

Wardle, C. (Bexhill)

Sackville, Hon Thomas

Watson, John

St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

Watts, John

Scott, Nicholas

Wells, Bowen (Hertford)

Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

Wells, Sir John (Maidstone)

Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb1)

Wheeler, John

Shelton, William (Streatham)

Whitney, Raymond

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Wiggin, Jerry

Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

Wigley, Dafydd

Silvester, Fred

Wolfson, Mark

Skeet, T. H. H.

Wood, Timothy

Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

Woodcock, Michael

Soames, Hon Nicholas

Yeo, Tim

Speed, Keith

Young, Sir George (Acton)

Speller, Tony

Younger, Rt Hon George

Spence, John

Spencer, Derek

Tellers for the Ayes:

Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

Mr. Carol Mather and

Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

Mr. Robert Boscawen.

NOES

Abse, Leo

Campbell, Ian

Alton, David

Campbell-Savours, Dale

Anderson, Donald

Canavan, Dennis

Archer, Rt Hon Peter

Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y)

Ashton, Joe

Carlisle, John (N Luton)

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Carter-Jones, Lewis

Barnett, Guy

Chapman, Sydney

Beckett, Mrs Margaret

Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

Beggs, Roy

Clarke, Thomas

Beith, A. J.

Clay, Robert

Bell, Stuart

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Benn, Tony

Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.)

Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)

Cohen, Harry

Benyon, William

Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

Bermingham, Gerald

Corbett, Robin

Bidwell, Sydney

Cormack, Patrick

Blair, Anthony

Cowans, Harry

Boothroyd, Miss Betty

Craigen, J. M.

Boyes, Roland

Crowther, Stan

Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

Cunningham, Dr John

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l)

Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E)

Deakins, Eric

Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

Dixon, Donald

Caborn, Richard

Dormand, Jack

Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)

Douglas, Dick

Dover, Den

Mason, Rt Hon Roy

Duffy, A. E. P.

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Eadie, Alex

Maynard, Miss Joan

Eastham, Ken

Meacher, Michael

Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE)

Michie, William

Evans, John (St. Helens N)

Mikardo, Ian

Fatchett, Derek

Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon)

Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)

Molyneaux, Rt Hon James

Fisher, Mark

Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

Flannery, Martin

Nellist, David

Foot, Rt Hon Michael

Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

Forrester, John

O'Brien, William

Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)

O'Neill, Martin

Foster, Derek

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Foulkes, George

Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

Park, George

George, Bruce

Patchett, Terry

Godman, Dr Norman

Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

Golding, John

Penhaligon, David

Gould, Bryan

Powell, Rt Hon J. E. (S Down)

Gower, Sir Raymond

Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

Greenway, Harry

Prescott, John

Gregory, Conal

Radice, Giles

Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

Randall, Stuart

Harman, Ms Harriet

Redmond, M.

Harris, David

Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S)

Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

Rhodes James, Robert

Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

Richardson, Ms Jo

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)

Haynes, Frank

Robinson, P. (Belfast E)

Healey, Rt Hon Denis

Ross, Wm. (Londonderry)

Heffer, Eric S.

Rowlands, Ted

Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

Sayeed, Jonathan

Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall)

Sedgemore, Brian

Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

Sheerman, Barry

Howells, Geraint

Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE)

Hughes, Roy (Newport East)

Silkin, Rt Hon J.

Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)

Skinner, Dennis

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'kl'ds E)

Hunter, Andrew

Smyth, Rev W. M. (Belfast S)

Janner, Hon Greville

Snape, Peter

Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

Spearing, Nigel

Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

Stanbrook, Ivor

Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

Kilfedder, James A.

Strang, Gavin

Kilroy-Silk, Robert

Straw, Jack

Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

Taylor, Rt Hon John David

Lamond, James

Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

Latham, Michael

Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)

Leadbitter, Ted

Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)

Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd)

Thorne, Stan (Preston)

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Torney, Tom

Lewis, Terence (Worsley)

van Straubenzee, Sir W.

Litherland, Robert

Vaughan, Sir Gerard

Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

Wainwright, R.

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

Walker, Cecil (Belfast N)

Loyden, Edward

Wallace, James

McCartney, Hugh

Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

McCrea, Rev William

Wareing, Robert

McKay, Allen (Penistone)

Weetch, Ken

MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

Williams, Rt Hon A.

Maclennan, Robert

Winnick, David

McTaggart, Robert

Winterton, Mrs Ann

McWilliam, John

Madden, Max

Tellers for the Noes:

Malins, Humfrey

Mr. Laurie Pavitt and

Marek, Dr John

Mr. Michael Welsh.

Martin, Michael

Question accordingly agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House takes note of the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into Proposals to Amend the Shops Acts (Cmnd. 9376); accepts the case for the removal of legislative limitations on shop hours; and looks forward to the Government bringing forward legislation to remove such limitations.

Local Overseas Allowance (Germany)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[tir. Archie Hamilton.]
10.27 pm
Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: I am glad to have the opportunity to raise the subject of the reduction in local overseas allowance for service men in Germany. I am pleased that the chairman and one of the vice-chairmen of the Conservative Back-Bench defence committee are also present. I welcome them to this short debate.
The House knows that I do not generally seek to intervene in debates on defence matters, although I served my national service in a good regiment and spent some time abroad. We thought ourselves very short of money when we were on active service in Palestine in 1948. But all that was a long time ago.
I am seeking to raise this subject because I believe that the Government may have made a serious mistake in the way in which they have dealt with the overseas allowance for our service men in Germany on this occasion.
I should like to make known to the House the contents of a letter that I have received from a captain serving in Germany. I shall not read out all of it because it would not be fair to him if I were to identify him personally; but I am sure that he is speaking for a large number of our men in Germany. His letter is so well expressed that I do not think that I can do better than to open the debate by reading from it. He wrote on 2 May:
"As a volunteer single soldier, the reduction of Local Overseas Allowance … announced on April 11 (to take effect from August 1) cuts my annual net salary by one month's pay. As a single captain, I therefore stand to lose in excess of £600 per annum. When this reduction takes effect, a single captain will be some DM240 per month worse off now than he was in April 1981; taking into account changes in the rate of exchange between the pound and DM, previous LOA reductions and pay increases.
You will perhaps be aware that few people join the Army to make money, but I cannot think of any firm or organisation that would expect its personnel to endure an 8 per cent. drop in salary. The situation is aggravated by the fact that this comes in addition to increased commitments with reduced manpower which mean a greater work load per capita. This leads to a declining quality of life, principally through an inability to take one's full allowance of leave. Currently, in my Regiment the average amount of leave missed last year was I 1 days per man, and that was during a period of less commitments than this year. Also, the chances for adventure training and sport are reduced dramatically …
Whilst there is the advantage of tax free prices from living abroad there is no question that we incur greater expenses than our comrades who serve in England. A newspaper costs on average three times as much out here … I am entitled to one free return flight home per year, and thus should I wish to see either friends or family more than once a year, I must either pay in excess of £75 for a civil flight, or drive back at a cost of £60 on average. Telephone calls are also expensive since one is making international calls each time one rings home …
It is perhaps worth exploding the myth that actions such as cutting allowances save money. Even though many soldiers were leaving before this announcement was made, due to the declining quality of life over here. I would suggest to you that the numbers leaving will increase further. This will lead to gaps in the middle management level of Corporal and Captain, as in the mid 1970s, with the best men leaving. Thus the vast cost of training these men is not balanced by an adequate return in terms of length of service and we have to incur the expense of training up more new recruits, with a lower grade middle management. I do not think that much of the £17,000.000 saved from LOA will be left for spending on other things.
832
I would therefore be grateful if you could make the strongest representations on behalf of both myself, and all others serving in BOAR, to the Government in an attempt to solve some of these problems … All of the money spent on new equipment will he entirely wasted if there are only second grade soldiers to man it. We need some action now if we are to avoid a crisis worse than existed in the mid 1970s; high unemployment is no deterrent to soldiers who wish to vote with their feet, since they usually posses qualifications which are much in demand in civilian life. I hope that you will feel able to take some action to remedy this situation, and I look forward to hearing from you."
I replied to the captain, but I also made some inquiries. It does not seem that that is an unbalanced or unreasonable expression of the views of our men serving in Germany. If that is true it is a serious matter, and deserves the attention of the House of Commons.
Sir Antony Buck: The whole House is indebted to my hon. Friend for bringing the matter to the attention of the House. Many of us, including my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson Smith), have had representations and letters similar to the one from which my hon. Friend has just quoted. One of the most disturbing features, to which we hope the Minister will respond, is that in some cases, possibly through no fault of the Ministry, the first intimation that some of our forces had about the matter was through the media, which is a great shame, in addition to the basic facts.
Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for mentioning that matter. I do not want to emphasise it too much, because mistakes can happen or there can be leaks, but it adds to the loss of morale and it is vital that we should avoid that.
I recognise that the decision to cut the allowances follows a statistical exercise. I shall not suggest that it has not been carried out in good faith and as competently as possible; but on examination of how it was done, how the rate of exchange is taken into account and other aspects of the calculation are dealt with to assess the comparative cost of living in Germany and Britain, I cannot escape the feeling that there is a substantial element of discretion in how the figures are decided. I wonder whether there might have been some anxiety in the Ministry of Defence to show willingness to accommodate itself to the Treasury, at any rate in this small way, by making the cut as severe as possible on the basis of the statistical exercise. If that was the thinking behind it, it was very short-sighted.
I have noted the replies that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave the Select Committee on Defence on 8 May and I have seen the brief exchange during Question Time on 30 April; but we have not yet had a satisfactory statement. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will be able to reassure the House, or to say that the point has been taken on board and that the Ministry is preparing to make some concession which will compensate for the shock and disappointment that our men undoubtedly feel as a result of this recent announcement.
We are dealing with long-term personnel management. An incident such as this can stick in people's gullets for a long time. We must think about the best use of our human and material resources in Germany and ask whether the saving of £17 million was really worth the inevitable disappointment. Having served in industry for 20 years after leaving the Army, including some time in personnel management, it seems to me that service life is not so different from business in the rest of the state sector or, for

833
that matter, in the private sector of industry. The men must be looked after. If they are not, the machines will not look after themselves. The first consideration is the morale of the men, the management or, in this case, the troops.
How do we value our men? Do we care about their morale? Does it matter if they take their knowledge and skills elsewhere, or is this all a fuss about nothing? In my opinion it is not a fuss about nothing, the men's morale matters and we must not allow them to vote with their feet. Loyalty is a two-way street. Our men must know that we have not forgotten them in Germany and that we are not trying to drive a hard bargain with them. If the traffic in one direction dries up, the reverse traffic—their loyalty to us—will begin to dry up as well. We do not want that result.
I shall not complain and seek to make a serious issue of the fact that the announcement was made in an unfortunate way. It is clear that the Secretary of State has taken that on board and will ensure that the mistake is not repeated. I am worried, however, about the long-term effect if the decision to make a small immediate saving has a disproportionately damaging effect on our defence capability and the long-term cost-effectiveness of our defence expenditure in Germany. We might be making the same mistake that the Labour party made in the 1970s when it did not keep pace with the natural desire of our police force to enjoy a reasonable standard of living and the self-respect that goes with it. We lost many men then that we could ill afford to lose. Moreover it is the best men that find it easiest to go.
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith: The same thing happened with the Armed Forces.
Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: So I believe. The Ministry must be aware of past mistakes and is equal to providing a remedy now. I realise that pay and conditions in the services have been very much improved recently; but a sudden drop is a shock to men of all ranks and must be compensated for in some way.
The officer who wrote to me in the first instance, replied to my letter with what I hope is a constructive suggestion. He said:
"If financial remuneration is not possible, then perhaps the conditions of service could be improved. This could be done by increasing the number of free flights home per soldier per year. Alternatively, soldiers could be given the option of a free ferry ticket together with a motor mileage claim to the port of departure instead of using one of their free flights. Whatever happens, if something is not done shortly, the quantity of soldiers leaving will increase, and there will be a large decrease in the overall quality of the British Army."
My hon. Friend must reassure the House about that problem tonight. I hope that he will not think that I am seeking to make difficulties for him or to stir up trouble among our men in Germany. That would be the last thing that I or any Conservative Member would seek to do. My hon. Friend has a problem, which at present has not been solved. He must address himself to it sincerely and competently.
10.40 pm
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir B. Rhys Williams). As my hon. Friend the Minister
834
knows, I am an officer and a Conservative Back Bench Member, and take a keen interest in these matters through my involvement with the military committee of NATO.
I recognise that the Government have a splendid record in defence matters. That includes both equipment and the terms and conditions of service, which have been substantially improved since they came to office. However, I know from the information that I have received that this matter has caused some anxiety. A straight- forward financial comparison between the cost of living here and in the Federal Republic of Germany is not a true comparison. We are all aware that certain special conditions attach to service in Northern Ireland, which makes it a little more attractive for those who spend any length of time there. I hope that when my hon. Friend replies he will be able to give us some satisfaction on that score.
10.41 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. John Lee): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir. B. Rhys Williams) for providing this opportunity to comment on the reductions in local overseas allowance which are taking place in Germany. I am well aware of the anxiety expressed by hon. Members, the press and many ordinary members of the public about those reductions. Obviously, I take note of the comments of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Colchester, North (Sir A. Buck) and my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson Smith). The fact that we have about a 400 per cent. increase in attendance on the Back Benches compared with the normal Adjournment debate demonstrates the degree of parliamentary interest in this subject. I should like, therefore, to give the House a full explanation of how the LOA system works and of the reasons for the outcome of the recent LOA review in Germany.
The purpose of the local overseas allowance is to supplement the pay of service men in those areas where their expenditure on items of day-to-day living is necessarily higher than in the United Kingdom. It is a compensatory cost of living allowance and it is therefore free of income tax. It is assessed separately for each overseas theatre. The approach to and methods used in each individual assessment are always the same, irrespective of location, and rates will differ as a reflection of local prices and conditions. They will also vary according to the individual's marital status and rank.
I stress that the allowance is not paid as an inducement to, or reward for, service overseas or long hours worked or, indeed, in respect of the potential dangers inherent in service with the Armed Forces. Those factors are taken into account when assessing the correct level of service pay. Pay levels for the services are established by the independent Armed Forces pay review body. As part of the AFPRB process of assessment; it identifies an extra payment, known as the X factor, which is added to basic pay to compensate service men for such things as their liability to work long hours without extra pay and the potential danger and turbulence involved in their work. The X factor currently amounts to 10 per cent. of pay in the case of service men and 7·5 per cent. for women.
Similarly, LOA is not designed to cover the extra costs of non-essential or luxury items, such as cameras or hi-fi, or to help with the purchase of tax-free capital goods in an overseas location. It is important to realise that LOA is

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designed to cover the extra costs to people in general—the average service man or woman. We recognise that individual expenditure patterns will differ from the assumptions made about the average man, but for clear practical reasons it cannot be based on individual circumstances. In Germany alone we would be faced with 65,000 separate assessments were we to do otherwise.
It is obviously important to the Armed Forces that any system for compensating service personnel for extra day-to-day living costs, brought about by their service overseas, should be seen to operate, and should in practice operate, fairly, irrespective of the overseas theatre in which they may be stationed. Service personnel in receipt of LOA are based in many countries as far apart as Hong Kong, Australia, the United States and, of course, closer to home, in various western European countries. Inevitably the difference between the cost of living in Britain and in the countries overseas where our Armed Forces are serving will narrow as well as widen. It is inescapable, therefore, that there will sometimes be LOA reductions as well as LOA increases.
I have laid emphasis on explaining the policy and underlying philosophy for the payment of local overseas allowances. I should now like to turn to the operation of the system and to explain in more detail the workings of the process. LOA is regularly reviewed so that it fairly and accurately reflects additional living costs. An LOA review team normally comprises a representative of a service personnel branch, a Treasury and-or Ministry of Defence finance division representative and an independent chairman together with a secretary from the central staffs, whose job it is to arbitrate between the personnel and finance divisions.
Full reviews are undertaken every three years, and each year close to the anniversary of the full review the review team carries out a repricing of the LOA budget, based on the standards assessed at the review. In this way, LOA is kept in touch with overseas price movements, and the problems which would otherwise be caused by significant pay and price variations between the trienniel reviews are reduced. Each review is carried out extremely thoroughly and in the greatest detail, and covers all the major items of expenditure that a service man would incur—food, clothing, drink, cars, sport, recreation, entertainment, holidays and so on. It also provides for any necessary adjustments to service lifestyles from those in the United Kingdom as a result of local conditions.
A new cycle of LOA reviews began in October 1984 based on the latest data collected from a survey of expenditure by service personnel in the United Kingdom. The 1984 survey was restructured to reflect more accurately the overseas position and, for example, established more evidence on service men's expenditure on weekend holidays, ownership of home videos, the scale of home entertainment, hobbies and several other expenditure headings relevant to the calculation of the LOA budget. We also investigated closely the types of goods and services bought and their weighting in the budget. As a result, we changed some products in the notional LOA shopping basket to reflect known shopping patterns more closely.
The new cycle of reviews has resulted in some substantial increases in LOA, with exceptions in some cases for single personnel. About 5,000 have benefited from the reviews, for example, in Cyprus, Italy, Sardinia, Gibraltar, Portugal, the United States, Denmark and
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Belize. However, in the case of Germany, a review in March based on the same criteria used for reviews in those other countries concluded that LOA should be reduced. The review in Germany necessitated the employment of two full LOA teams, which undertook a detailed survey during the whole of March. In addition to the armed forces representatives on the team, observers from the British Army of the Rhine and RAF Germany were attached to the team throughout the entire review process. Prices were taken at many locations—in NAAFI and German shops, hotels, garages, messes, and places of entertainment. Representatives of service personnel stationed in Germany and their wives were also interviewed, and the findings of the review were considered most carefully before the reductions were announced.
Inflation in Germany continues to remain lower than in the United Kingdom, and the cost of most items for day-to-day living is the same or less in Germany. In addition, the benefits of duty-free prices must be taken into account. For example, at the time of the review in Germany, a packet of 20 cigarettes in NAAFI cost 47p; a pint of beer in a corporal's mess cost 40p; and duty-free petrol cost 94p per gallon which, taken in conjunction with other costs and non-payment of road tax, reduces car running costs to about two thirds of those in the United Kingdom. The main factors which result in LOA continuing to be paid in Germany include the loss to the service man on the sale of his car in the United Kingdom, higher car ownership and car mileages in Germany, the need for extra clothing to combat the cold and the costs of running a second bank account.
The local overseas allowance review in Germany not only took into account the most recent information on shopping patterns, but also made improvements in the compensation for losses on car sales in the United Kingdom and on wear and tear on washing machines; in the cost of a second bank account; and in holiday provision for single personnel. Holiday provision is important, because it is acknowledged that it is not easy to visit friends and relatives in the United Kingdom, so it is assumed for LOA purposes that all personnel spend 21 nights with full board in an hotel and have seven nights camping costs. It is the cost of hotel accommodation, baby-sitting costs, home entertainment and extra clothing for the family which create the differences in LOA rates between married and single personnel.
We fully understand that many service men and women have commitments which they cannot quickly reduce, and although it is made clear that LOA is not intended for the purchase of capital goods, the implementation of the recent LOA reductions has been deferred until 1 August. This is two months later than would apply under the normal rules for this allowance. Increases elsewhere in the world have been put into effect at the beginning of the month following the LOA review.
There has been criticism that service men and women in Germany first heard of the LOA reduction from the media. This point was referred to by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Colchester, North. The difficulty here is that our experience has shown that a reduction in LOA in Germany is publicised by the media almost immediately it is announced to units. Given the number of service men and women away from barracks at any one time, either in transit or on exercises or other duties it is

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impossible to avoid the situation in which many of them first hear of an LOA reduction through the media. We will, however, give this aspect further consideration.
We all recognise in the Ministry of Defence that life in Germany is demanding, and are very much aware of the extremely high standards that our service men in BAOR and RAF Germany achieve, as I have noted on my visits. However, LOA is intended only to reflect cost of living factors and cannot be kept at a higher level than the extra cost of living in Germany would justify. The very understandable disappointment at the reductions resulting from the recent LOA review in Germany has to be balanced against the warm welcome given to the increases in LOA that the same system has produced elsewhere.
It is of great importance to the armed forces overall to have a system for ensuring that, as far as it is administratively possible, service men and women are compensated, but not over-compensated, for increases to their costs of living when they are serving overseas. I hope that I have been able to explain to the House the reasons for our decision, which must stand.
We are of course concerned about the well-being and morale of our troops stationed in Germany and we recognise the importance of pay and allowances, but it is
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equally important to uphold morale by ensuring that our troops are properly and fully equipped, and we are proud of our record in this regard.
I freely acknowledge that, human nature being what it is, no one likes to have something reduced or taken away, but those in receipt of local overseas allowances must appreciate that they are concessionary and can be adjusted upwards or downwards and thus that service personnel must plan their financial commitments accordingly.
Sir Antony Buck: We are most grateful to the Under-Secretary of State for dealing with the matter so fully. Would he consider it to be appropriate to spell out in a slim Government document the substance of what he has just said for distribution not only among the Armed Forces, by whom I think it will be well received, but also among those hon. Members who try closely to follow these matters? It is not mentioned in the White Paper.
Mr. Lee: I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for his suggestion, which I shall certainly consider with my ministerial colleagues.
I emphasise to the House that the principles behind LOAs have not changed and have remained the same for many years under successive Governments.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at seven minutes to eleven o' clock.