Commons Sitting of 8 May 1985

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  ROYAL HOLLOWAY AND BEDFORD NEW COLLEGE BILL [Lords] (By Order)
  Order for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time tomorrow.

  GLENSANDA HARBOUR ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read the Third time, and passed.
Oral Answers to Questions
  ENVIRONMENT

    Urban Programme Project
    Mr. Cohenasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what are Her Majesty's Government's intentions in respect of funds which will be made available for urban programme projects.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Sir George Young): Details of planned expenditure and priorities for the urban programme are given in "The Government's Expenditure Plans 1985–86 to 1987–88" (Cmnd. 9428-II pages 118–121). This year £338 million has been allocated to help foster enterprise, improve the environment and tackle social problems. These resources are used in accordance with ministerial guidelines, a restatement of which, together with details of my Department's initiative to strengthen the management of the urban programme, has been placed in the Library of the House.
    Mr. Cohen: The Minister is aware that many valuable urban programme projects and children's holiday and play schemes in my constituency, Leyton, have been rejected by his Department. Are not many self-help community groups suffering because the Government are not providing sufficient funds for the urban programme? In view of the effect upon voluntary organisations of the proposed abolition of the Greater London council, should not the Minister be entering into a positive commitment to a major expansion of the urban programme?
    Sir George Young: The urban programme is a popular programme which is always over-subscribed. Before the hon. Gentleman takes this Government to task for their attitude towards Waltham Forest, he may care to reflect that in 1984–85 we shall be making roughly £183,500 available under the traditional urban programme,
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    compared with about £76,000 in 1979. There has, therefore, been a real increase in the resources that this Government have made available to Waltham Forest under the urban programme. As for abolition, the Government have made it quite clear that there is no reason why worthwhile projects should suffer after the abolition. of the GLC.
    Mr. Ashby: Does my hon. Friend not agree that perhaps the most valuable urban aid that is provided is for the clean-up programmes in areas of decline? Does he not agree that the programme that has been financed by the Government in my constituency, Leicestershire, North-West, is valuable and should be extended for another two years?
    Sir George Young: We are always pleased to learn that money spent under the urban programme has been gratefully received by the local hon. Member. Environmental improvement is one of the objectives of the urban programme and we hope to maintain the initiative that has recently been launched in Leicester.
    Mr. Allan Roberts: Is the Minister aware that many local authorities would not have had impossible targets to meet or would not have had to be rate capped if they had not had to incorporate under their own expenditure headings time-expired schemes which were originally funded by the urban programme? Was that not the case last year with Liverpool, and is it not the case this year with many rate-capped authorities? Will the Minister refund many of these programmes?
    Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman may unwittingly have led people to believe that Liverpool city council is rate-capped. It is not. It has always been a feature of the urban programme that it pump primes worthwhile projects on the basis that local authorities will take them over at the end of four or five yars. That has always been the basis upon which the urban programme has been planned.
    Mr. Brandon-Bravo: My hon. Friend will agree that the previous Labour Government and this Government have reduced the rate support grant, but is it not also true that specific grants in the urban programme have given many cities more rather than less money than used to be the case under the old purely rate support grant system?
    Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the worthwhile increase in the value of the urban programme. In 1978–79 the urban programme spent £93 million and in the current year, £338 million. That is a worthwhile increase in resources to our inner cities.
    Mr. Simon Hughes: What is the skeleton in the Government's cupboard that leads them to command an internal report on the future of the urban programme and then not publish it? What does that report say? Does it say that there will be a further cut in the urban programme, or does it say, as it should, that there should be a substantial extension and improvement? Can it be made public? That is really the question.
    Sir George Young: That was an internal review of the urban programme. It has been reviewed more often than almost any other item of Government expenditure, and it has always emerged from such reviews with credit. We plan to spend in cash terms this year roughly the same as the cash outturn for last year. The fact that we have

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    managed to safeguard the urban programme over the past six years at a time when, for good reasons, reductions have been made in public expenditure, is a reflection of the priority that we attach to dealing with the problems of the inner cities.
    Mr. Barnett: In allocating funds to specific projects, to what degree has the Minister followed the order of priorities set by the local authority which put those projects before him?
    Sir George Young: Ministers usually honour the priorities that are set by local authorities. We recognise that they are in touch with the position to an extent that Ministers cannot be. Having said that, we have made our overall priorities for the urban programme clear in terms of the balance between economic, social and environmental projects, and in order to secure that national balance we occasionally have to re-order the priorities of individual local authorities.
    Mr. Holt: When will my hon. Friend review the urban programme to embrace those void areas which are currently covered by the urban programme, not by the rural programme? Towns such as Lofthouse and Skelton in my constituency are in grave need of some urban or rural renewal, or renewal of whatever type my hon. Friend would like to give them, in order to improve the environment, yet they are excluded. When will the Government take action on that?
    Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend's concern that his constituency should have access to as much money as possible. In due course we shall be reviewing the designation of districts under the urban programme, and I have noted my hon. Friend's bid.
    Mr. John Fraser: Will the Minister recognise the contradiction that out of nine partnership authorities last year, six were penalised, and in two authorities, for about every £2 paid in inner city partnership grants £3 was taken away in penalties? Will the Minister accede to the request of the Association of Metropolitan Authorities and disregard for penalty purposes the contribution that local authorities make towards inner city partnership programmes?
    Sir George Young: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government have to consider any application for disregard that is made by local authorities. If such an application is made, it will be considered, but there is no reason to exempt local authorities in the inner city areas from the search for economy and efficiency which the Government expect all local authorities to try to make.

    High Technology Site, Bickenhill
    Mr. Iain Millsasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make it his policy to reject any planning appeals, involving the proposed high technology site in Bickenhill, until the Marston Green and Bickenhill district plan is determined.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Neil Macfarlane): No, Sir. The draft status of a local plan is not in itself a reason for the rejection of planning appeals. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will consider any such appeals on their merits.
    Mr. Mills: Does my hon. Friend realise that his answer will give rise to great concern among my constituents, who consider the pace of applications for that small 140-acre site of green belt, if not illegal, certainly immoral? Is he aware of the legitimate interest of the national exhibition centre in considering development in the area—a most important asset for Birmingham? Will he consider waiting for the determination of the structure plan and the Marston Green and Bickenhill district plan before allowing those applications to proceed?
    Mr. Macfarlane: I note my hon. Friend's comments, and I am well aware of the strength of local feeling in his and neighbouring constituencies which are concerned about development. He has led delegations and has made his views well known on his constituents' behalf. There is a presumption against development in the green belts. Such development will be permitted only in exceptional circumstances. We have to take many steps over the next few weeks. I made it clear earlier this year that the proposal, with careful and sensitive planning, will be economically beneficial to the region as a whole, without being prejudicial to the objectives of green belt policy.
    Mr. John Mark Taylor: Is my hon. Friend aware of the wider anxiety in Solihull about the pace of change and scale of development? Is he aware of the suspicion that the inner urban areas might have a greater need for the resources involved?
    Mr. Macfarlane: I am well aware of that. All such issues are taken into account before my right hon. Friend reaches a decision.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: Is the Minister aware that many of us cannot afford to turn down high technology parks? If the Minister has any trouble allocating such parks, why does he not just send them north, because we shall welcome them at any time? Is the Minister aware that my constituency has the space for a high technology park?
    Mr. Macfarlane: I note what the hon. Gentleman says.

    Rating
    Mr. Evansasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what recent representations he has received advocating the abolition of the present rating system.
    Mr. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what recent representations he has received on the reform of the rating system.
    Mr. Heddleasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has recently received on the reform of the rating system.
    Mr. Cartwrightasked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many representations he has received on the reform of local government finance since 10 October 1984.
    The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Patrick Jenkin): We continue to receive many representations advocating abolition or reform of the rating system.
    Mr. Evans: Will the Secretary of State confirm that he has received representations from some highly placed persons in the Conservative party making the absurd

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    suggestion that the present rating system should be replaced by a poll tax? Will he make it clear to those highly placed persons that, apart from the astronomical cost of collecting and policing a poll tax, the British people will decimate any political party that seeks to impose a tax on the right to vote?
    Mr. Jenkin: I have read a number of imaginative press pieces about the studies that I announced last October. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that in our studies of the local government finance system we are examining alternative methods of raising revenue locally and that all options are open.
    Mr. Knox: In view of the difficulty of finding a satisfactory alternative to the present rating system, is not the most sensible step to transfer the cost of teachers' salaries from the rates to central Government?
    Mr. Jenkin: Many of the complaints which Ministers face at the Dispatch Box are about the increasing centralisation of control to Whitehall. It would be a major act of centralisation if the Department of Education and Science took over the payment of teachers' salaries or, indeed, any other part of the education budget which is currently borne by local authorities.
    Mr. Heddle: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Government, unlike the Liberal party, do not intend to impose the rates burden upon agricultural land, but that they intend to relieve the commercial and industrial ratepayer of the pernicious burden of vindictive and profligate Labour-controlled local authorities, by fixing the commercial rate centrally? Does my right hon. Friend agree that an element of a poll tax, without safeguards, is regressive in some respects and involves the practical difficulty of updating the electoral register twice a year?
    Mr. Jenkin: I note carefully what my hon. Friend has said. Agriculture has been exempt from rating since the 1920s and we have no plans to bring it back into the rating system.
    Mr. Cartwright: Does the Secretary of State accept that the injustices of the rating system are made worse because in Engand and Wales it is based on valuations that are 12 years out of date? Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that he made commitments to take urgent action on revaluation as long ago as August 1983? In view of the Government's unhappy experience in Scotland, do they still intend to continue with revaluation, or will they be looking for a much fairer system, such as local income tax?
    Mr. Jenkin: I am aware of what the hon. Gentleman mentioned. The Government now take the view that there cannot be a revaluation in England and Wales without a reform of the system.
    Mr. Fatchett: Are not the present problems with the rating system directly attributable to the massive cuts in rate support grant? Will we not find it impossible to come up with a fair system until the Government carry their responsibility and restore to local authorities the money that they have cut during the past six years and restore the level of support given by the last Labour Government in 1978–79?
    Mr. Jenkin: It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman chose that date, because he knows perfectly well that the
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    last Labour Government reduced the proportion of expenditure by central Government from the level that it reached in 1976.
    There is no preordained right for local authorities to have certain parts of their expenditure met by central Government. At the heart of the studies being undertaken by my hon. Friends is the restoration of full accountability by local authorities to those who pay for them and elect them. We are currently engaged in doing that.
    Mr. Boyes: Does the Secretary of State recall that in 1982 the Select Committee on the Environment said that a poll tax should not be introduced under any circumstances? Therefore the right hon. Gentleman's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, North (Mr. Evans) was disappointing. Is it not clear that a poll tax is undemocratic because the flat rate could be set at a level which the poor and the unemployed could not afford, and that they therefore would not bother registering to vote? The people who support the right hon. Gentleman's party—the wealthy—could afford it and thus use their votes against the Labour party.
    Mr. Jenkin: At every election which the Conservative party has won, it has had considerably more votes from those on the lower end of the scale than from those on the higher end——
    Mr. Straw: There are more of them.
    Mr. Jenkin: That is quite right.
    On the question of raising revenue to finance local authority expenditure, the hon. Gentleman should recognise that it is an unsatisfactory system because in many parts of the country very few people pay towards the cost of local services, while so many enjoy them. It is that imbalance which seems wrong to us, and which any reform must right.
    Mr. Mark Carlisle: Is not the real problem with rates the fact that they are too high? Is that not at least partly because we are trying to finance too much public expenditure from rates? If that is so, rather than looking for alternative methods of raising local finance, would not the right answer be that suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, Moorlands (Mr. Knox)—to consider transferring education expenditure, or at least expenditure on teachers' salaries, from local government to central Government?
    Mr. Jenkin: I understand my right hon. and learned Friend's case, but what is wrong is that a tax that is property-based should now bear so much expenditure that is not property-related. There needs to be a wider tax base if local authorities are to be accountable to their local ratepayers. I do not believe that the answer to the problem is simply to centralise more spending in the Exchequer.
    Dr. Cunningham: Are we to believe that local government finance is to suffer yet another fundamental change, decided in secret without proper public evidence and debate? Does the Secretary of State recall the recently published words of the Controller and Auditor General, who said that rates
    "increases can therefore be attributed more to the reduction in the proportion of Government grant than to increases in local authority spending; and unless and until the level of central Government support is stabilised again it will be difficult for local electors to distinguish how far changes in rates should be attributed to the actions of the local authorities themselves."

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    Are we now to accept that the Government, having taxed water, energy and health, are about to tax votes also? Is that the prospect that the right hon. Gentleman is offering to the House? Does he not realise that the electors could fill a warehouse with broken Tory promises on rates?
    Mr. Jenkin: The hon. Gentleman posed one serious query at the beginning of that supplementary question when he asked whether there was to be another fundamental review of local government finance.
    Dr. Cunningham: In secret.
    Mr. Jenkin: I shall come to that. There is widespread recognition of the need for a reform of local government finance. I hope the hon. Gentleman welcomes the fact that the studies that will lead to that are well under way. We shall publish our proposals in the form of a consultative paper and there will be ample opportunity for all those interested to put forward their views before there is any question of legislation being introduced.
    Mr. Winnickasked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he now expects to be in a position to announce the outcome of the Government's review of the rating system.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I hope to be able to do so later this year.
    Mr. Winnick: Considering the present defects in the rating system, is it not clear that the imposition of a poll tax would make the system far worse and would, in particular, penalise those on average and small incomes? Is it really proposed to have a poll tax in addition to the rating system? We appreciate that the Secretary of State is under great pressure from the Prime Minister. Will he inform her that the last occasion when a poll tax was introduced in this country led to the uprising of 1381? Is that not a good enough warning?
    Mr. Jenkin: I was not about then. The concern in the country is very widespread because in recent years, often for the best of motives, a considerable gap has opened up between those who pay, those who receive and those who vote. That gap lies at the heart of the lack of accountability of local authorities to those who pay the bills and is greatly colouring the studies that we have undertaken. I ask the hon. Gentleman to await the outcome of those studies before jumping to conclusions.
    Mr. Maude: Before my right hon. Friend announces the outcome of the review, will he bear in mind the crucial importance of ensuring that the cost of providing local services falls on all local people and that there should be no exemptions from and rebates of what I hope will be a residents charge introduced to replace rates?
    Mr. Jenkin: I take note of my hon. Friend's views.
    Mr. Freeson: Instead of undertaking another secretive review, why will the Government not just republish the Layfield report and make some conclusions based on that? Is it not a fact that a poll tax would need so many qualifications and exemptions that it would end up, as the Select Committee said in 1982, as a crude kind of local income tax, and that it would be far better to go fully down that road and introduce a properly worked out local income tax system?
    Mr. Jenkin: The right hon. Gentleman's points are considerations which the Government are taking into
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    account in the studies which we are undertaking. However, it must be recognised that there is widespread concern that many of those who benefit from local authority services contribute little or nothing towards them. That has undermined the principle of accountability in many areas, and we must address our minds to that.
    Mr. Tracey: In conducting the review, will my right hon. Friend give proper weight to the views of business and industry in Britain, because that is where much of the rating burden falls? Will he take on board the views of the Institute of Directors, as a recent sample by the institute revealed wide support for a poll tax?
    Mr. Jenkin: Nationally, over 60 per cent. of the revenue raised by local authorities comes from non-domestic ratepayers, two thirds of it from industry and commerce. In some areas the figure is significantly higher. That is another point which leads to a weakness in the accountability of local authorities to their ratepayers. Part of the studies that we are undertaking will consider ways of dealing with that problem.
    Mr. Simon Hughes: Given the controversial nature of any report that results from this review, can the Secretary of State say whether the Government intend to put the proposals of himself and his colleagues to the country in the next election manifesto or whether they intend to legislate before then on a reform of the rating system?
    Mr. Jenkin: We leave both options open.
    Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: Although all options are still open, will my right hon. Friend be cautious about further raising public expectations about a poll tax, which is less attractive the closer it is studied? Although the system needs to be radically reformed, does my right hon. Friend agree that this would not be best done by inventing further forms of taxation?
    Mr. Jenkin: If reform were easy and painless, it would have been done years ago. Because of the widespread feeling that doing nothing is no longer an option, we need to examine all the possibilities to maintain and improve the system of local government finance in order to strengthen the health of local government as a whole.
    Mr. Hardy: Has the Secretary of State studied the recommendations and conclusions of the Layfield report? Does he accept that the major change that has taken place since the Layfield report was published is that the share of local expenditure met by the Government has fallen dramatically? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that this is the major cause of the widespread concern to which he referred?
    Mr. Jenkin: I do not necessarily accept that, because many authorities have been able to cope with a reduction in the percentage of grant by imposing modest rate increases because they have been able to find economies and make savings. The Layfield inquiry was conducted eight years ago, and events have moved on substantially since then. I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not think it wrong for the Government to take a fresh look at the problem. The Layfield analysis is part of the evidence on which my hon. Friends are basing their studies.
    Mr. Squire: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on achieving two out of three marks for discussions on public reports to date. Will he note that many of us support the transfer of non-domestic rate to the centre but recognise,

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    as the Government appear to do, the need to create funding in addition to the present rating system? May I echo the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Heddle). The single central failing of a poll tax is that it cannot command the broad support which a fundamental reform of the rating system must have if it is to be introduced.
    Mr. Jenkin: I note my hon. Friend's view. During our studies, all the options are being studied carefully. We shall come forward with our proposals in due course.
    Mr. Tony Banks: Is not the Secretary of State getting rather fed up with being dropped in it from a great height by the Prime Minister over rating and the abolition of the GLC? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would like to tell us something about what happened in the other place yesterday. If the right hon. Gentleman is considering levying a poll tax, is he also considering making registration compulsory?
    Mr. Jenkin: What happened yesterday in another place is not a matter that arises from this question. Obviously, if there is to be a reform of taxation, there must inevitably be laws to ensure that those liable to pay taxation do so. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would expect it to be otherwise.
    Mr. Colvin: May we take it that the Government are firmly committed to replacing not only domestic but commercial rates? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that an overriding principle of any alternative system would be the ability of those to be taxed to pay?
    Mr. Jenkin: Our studies embrace the entire system of local government finance, not only revenue raising, but the relationships between central and local government. I am sure my hon. Friend will agree that it would be wrong at this stage of these studies to rule out any of the options.
    Dr. Cunningham: If the right hon. Gentleman wants to reform local finance, why does he not begin by abandoning the iniquitous system of targets and penalties which he and his predecessors have so unfairly enforced? Can the right hon. Gentleman name one country with a plural democratic society which actually uses a poll tax to raise local government finance? Does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that the whole idea of taxing registrations to vote is abhorrent in a democratic society? May I tell the right hon. Gentleman and the House unequivocally that, if any such system were introduced, it would be abolished by the next Labour Government.
    Mr. Jenkin: It is, I fear, typical of the Labour party that it promises to abolish things before it knows what they are. When one thinks of all the other things that it has promised—abolishing tax relief on mortgage payments, and putting capital gains tax on those who sell council houses—I am not surprised that the hon. Gentleman is becoming confused.

    Leicester (Rate Capping)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many representations he has so far received from citizens of Leicester concerning the rate capping of Leicester city council.
    The Minister for Local Government (Mr. Kenneth Baker): My right hon. Friend has received about 75 representations about the rate capping of Leicester city council from Leicester citizens.
    Mr. Janner: Has the Minister also received this morning 26,000 further representations in a petition presented to his Department on behalf of the citizens of Leicester, most of whom helped to ensure that last week all Labour candidates in the city increased their majorities and votes? Does he not recognise that central Government interference in the affairs of the city is a direct denial of local democracy and is disliked by citizens, however they would normally vote?
    Mr. Baker: It is highly unlikely that the citizens of Leicester dislike rate capping, because Leicester's rate has been cut by one third as a direct result. Last year Leicester received some £9·7 million of block grant. As a direct result of rate capping it will receive £12 million this year. In addition, its urban programme allocation, which I have approved, is £5·4 million this year.
    Mr. Peter Bruinvels: Will my right hon. Friend take not the slightest notice of the petitions, which were phoney and deliberately whipped up by the scaremongering tactics and campaign of the Leicester Labour party, which spent £61,000 last year on an anti-rate capping campaign and which to date has allowed £150,000 for an anti-rate capping campaign? Does he accept that in Leicester people want to be rate capped and that the Conservative vote, in fact, held up?
    Mr. Baker: I thank my hon. Friend for his support. I am sure that the citizens of Leicester object to the use of ratepayers' money for political propaganda because of the way that it has been manipulated. On rate capping in general, I was glad to see that last night Sheffield city council at last faced reality and, against the advice of its leader, set a rate within the limit set by the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order."]—and rejected a deficit budget. I only hope that the remaining——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The question was about Leicester.
    Hon. Members: Hear, hear.

    Watts Committee (Water Metering)
    Mr. Freemanasked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he received the report of the Watts committee on domestic water metering; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister for Housing and Construction (Mr. Ian Gow): I hope to receive the report before the end of next month. Thereafter I will make a statement. I have read my hon. Friend's pamphlet "A fair deal for water" which is an excellent contribution to the debate.
    Mr. Freeman: Is my hon. Friend aware that the cause of metering will be greatly served by the privatisation of water authorities, and that there is widespread support for that move on the Conservative Benches? In the meantime, will he encourage water authorities to introduce more extensive metering trials?
    Mr. Gow: On the second part of my hon. Friend's question, he will be aware that at present all water authorities offer the option of metering to all their

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    customers. With regard to the first part of his question, he will be aware that the Government are examining the possibility of the privatisation of the water authorities and, under the lead of the Watts committee, the possibility of wider water metering.
    Mr. O'Brien: Before the Minister makes any statement on the wholesale metering of water throughout the country, will he have regard to the fact that there are few democratically elected members on water authorities? Will he ensure that the water authorities are more democratic before he makes such a statement?
    Mr. Gow: We have more streamlined and efficient water authorities today than ever before. On the issue of metering, I commend to the hon. Member the pamphlet of my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Freeman), which, priced at £1·25, is extremely good value and a great deal better than the pamphlet written by the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith), who advocated that the gain someone makes on his house should be subject to tax.
    Mr. Nicholls: Will my hon. Friend accept, since in the way that the system operates at present there is no advantage in going for metering if one is on an average sort of rate, that there is a great deal of resentment, especially among single householders and the elderly, who get no concession or recognition for the fact that they use the service very little and are charged precisely the same as those who use it a great deal? Will he ensure that that vice is taken out of the system?
    Mr. Gow: My hon. Friend is right. There is a widespread view that the present system of charging on the basis of rateable value is not fair. This has been considered in the past, but we are looking at it again. We shall certainly bear in mind the point that my hon. Friend rightly makes.
    Mr. Rooker: The Minister applauds the pamphlet of his hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Freeman). Does he agree with his hon. Friend when he rules out a poll tax on water? Does he further agree with his hon. Friend's assertion in the pamphlet that the price mechanism ought to be the overriding factor in consumer demand? Is this what the Prime Minister really means by a classless society, when there is a differential on the use of water according to ability to pay?
    Mr. Gow: The hon. Gentleman is creating a certain amount of advance and synthetic indignation about this. I was commending to the House, and, indeed, Mr. Speaker, I commend to you, the excellent pamphlet written by my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Freeman). [HON. MEMBERS: "Has the hon. Gentleman read it?"] Of course I have read it. Courtesy among colleagues is something not widely understood by Opposition Members. My hon. Friend was kind enough to send me an advance copy, as he will confirm, and I am grateful to him. I hope that today's exchanges will mean that the pamphlet is read even more widely. I hope that the Conservative Political Centre, which published it, will receive some more funds for its needs in the future.

    Olympic Games
    Mr. Pendryasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has received any recent application from United Kingdom cities wishing to host future Olympic Games.
    Mr. Macfarlane: No, Sir. It is for the British Olympic Association to consider applications from United Kingdom cities wishing to host the games.
    Mr. Pendry: While recognising that this is principally a matter for the British Olympic Association, but recognising equally that three cities are bidding for the 1992 Olympic Games, may I ask the hon. Gentleman to say that if the British Olympic Association considers one of those applicants worthy he will today commit not only moral but financial support to that city so that it can meet the high Olympic standards?
    Mr. Macfarlane: It is premature to anticipate any such argument. The British Olympic Association has many issues to consider over the next few months. Technically, it has until August to decide whether to sponsor a host city when it goes to the IOC later this summer.
    Mr. Dickens: Is it not a fact that when the Olympic Games were last held in the United Kingdom, at Wembley, they created many jobs, with the rebuilding of Wembley Park station, the railway bridge, Olympia Way to Wembley, and so on? Is it not right that, when we have a city such as Manchester, which has much open land and space left by declining industries such as the textile industry, we should replace those jobs by petitioning the British Olympic Association to place the Olympic Games in the United Kingdom in Manchester?
    Mr. Macfarlane: I am sure that the chairman of the British Olympic Association, by this time tomorrow, will be fully aware of the force of my hon. Friend's argument.
    Mr. Meadowcroft: Is the Minister aware of the great success of the national railway museum at York and the national museum of photography at Bradford? Is it not a peculiar form of arrogance to believe that any national facility must be based in London? Will he support the application to stage the Olympic Games in the north of England rather than automatically assuming that a national facility be sited in London?
    Mr. Macfarlane: While I would be the first to applaud some of those centres, I certainly do not consider that the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's argument is an assumption which anybody else would follow.
    Mr. Forth: Will my hon. Friend give an undertaking that, while the Government will do everything to encourage the Olympic Games to come to the United Kingdom, there will be no need for taxpayers' money to be used for this purpose, following the excellent example of the United States Los Angeles Games, which actually made a profit?
    Mr. Macfarlane: While applauding the latter part of my hon. Friend's philosophy, I must point out that it is up to the British Olympic Association to decide whether to put this forward to the next IOC.
    Mr. Ewing: Will the Minister not be so dismissive of the idea of attracting the 1992 Olympics to the United Kingdom? As taxpayers' money was required to attract the

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    1966 World Cup, does he accept that we shall certainly require some taxpayers' money to attract the 1992 Olympics? To avoid this inter-city competition, will the Minister learn from the experience of the Los Angeles Olympics, where some of the events were held 500 and 600 miles from the main centre, and choose a collection of cities, two of which should be in Scotland—Edinburgh and Glasgow—in which to stage the Olympics?
    Mr. Macfarlane: I must point out that I do not accept the opening part of the hon. Gentleman's philosophy. There are many ways in which funds can be raised. I do not accept that the Olympic Games should be held at the taxpayers' expense. In Los Angeles, the matches were staged not 500 or 600 miles apart, but no more than 200 miles from the centre of the city.
    Mr. Corbyn: Does the Minister agree that if an application made by London for the 1992 Olympic Games were accepted, and if Government plans were carried out, London would be the only city contending for the Olympics which had no unitary local authority to respond to such a decision and to ensure that the games were properly administered and run?
    Mr. Macfarlane: The last time the games were held in this country they were held in London, and they were bid for by the Lord Mayor of London.
    Mr. Maclean: Will my hon. Friend suggest to the Olympic committee that it inaugurates a new competition and prize for hon. Members wanting the most taxpayers' money to take the games to their constituencies?
    Mr. Macfarlane: I take note of what my hon. Friend says. I am certain that the British Olympic Association will take note of all the points made today.
    Mr. Denis Howell: Does the Minister appreciate that the bid for the Olympics will be taken seriously only if it is proved to to be financially feasible? Therefore, when the choice is being made by the British Olympic Association, will the Minister please make an assessment of the cost involved—both the private cost for running the games and the public cost for the infrastructure? Does he understand that unless that is done, the entire matter will be regarded as a charade?
    Mr. Macfarlane: Unlike the right hon. Gentleman, I have every confidence in the BOC. It is perfectly capable of making feasibility studies in conjunction with the cities.

    Textile Closure Areas (Aid)
    Mr. Galleyasked the Secretary of State for the Environment how much European regional development fund non-quota aid for textile closure areas available for infrastructure investment has been spent so far; and how much he anticipates will be spent in 1985–86.
    Mr. Kenneth Baker: The proposals for £60 million worth of aid during the next five years were approved by the Commission in January. My Department is responsible for £21 million of that, and we are still examining the applications made by various qualifying authorities.
    Mr. Galley: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be a shocking waste if that £21 million were lost to the textile closure areas? Will he undertake to monitor the
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    position in conjunction with the local authorities involved to ensure that that money is spent sensibly and fully within the four-year period?
    Mr. Baker: I fully support what my hon. Friend has said, and I am sure that it meets with agreement on both sides of the House. It would be helpful for some textile areas where the textile industry is rundown to apply for this aid, which is primarily used for the conversion of old textile mills into smaller units for enterprise workshops and so on.
    Mr. Wainwright: Is the Minister aware that almost a year of the time allotted by the European Community for spending this money has past fruitlessly? Where local authority schemes are produced in textile closure areas, will he undertake that the use of the EC money will hot be frustrated by his rate capping or other limitations on local authority spending?
    Mr. Baker: In reply to the hon. Gentleman's first point, the Commission approved the money only in January 1985, and we saw the applications in February, March and April. I assure him that we are processing them as quickly as we can.
    Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: Will my right hon. Friend accept that some excellent schemes have been put forward in the north-west, not least by my city of Lancaster? Does he appreciate that it is extremely important to get the money on the ground as early as possible? We want to beat unemployment now.
    Mr. Baker: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I cannot comment on individual schemes, as we are still assessing them in the Department. I accept the pressures from both sides of the House to get on with the matter and approve the schemes.
    Mr. Straw: Is the Minister aware that the Silberston report has predicted that even if the multi-fibre arrangement is approved, a further 156,000 jobs could be lost in the textile areas during the next five years? Does he accept that, against that background, the expenditure of only £60 million to meet the social and economic consequences of closures is peanuts? What efforts is the Minister making to increase the resources available to those hard-pressed areas?
    Mr. Baker: I cannot comment on the outcome of the MFA discussions and the possible continuation of the scheme, because that is the responsibility of another Department. However, I accept entirely what the hon. Gentleman said. There has been a rundown in the industry. This contribution will help. Other schemes in the urban programme help his constituency and others across the country, and, of course, the Department of Trade and Industry has some programmes.

    Nature Conservancy Council
    Mr. Kirkwoodasked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has any plans to extend the funding of the Nature Conservancy Council.
    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. William Waldegrave): The NCC's grant-in-aid has been increased from £18–1 million in 1984–85 to £22–7 million in 1985–86. Requirements for future years will be considered in the light of the NCC's corporate plan.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Those increases are welcome so far as they go, but if it becomes clear that the NCC is unable to complete the renotification of sites of special scientific interest by the end of calendar year 1986, will the Minister consider providing extra funds for that? Does he accept that the new responsibilities visited on the council after 1 April this year, in terms of the farms structure and regulations that encourage farmers to leave intensive farming, have put an additional burden on the NCC? If that proves to be a problem, will he produce extra finance to enable that programme to proceed smoothly?
    Mr. Waldegrave: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's support. We increased the Nature Conservancy Council's funding by 36 per cent. between 1983–84 and 1984–85, and by 25 per cent. in the next year. I am happy to be able to tell him that the NCC recently confirmed that it could bring forward the substantial completion of the SSSI programme from 1987 to the end of 1986, which is a satisfactory outcome in response to the additional money that it has received.
    Mr. Kenneth Carlisle: Does my hon. Friend accept that the Government deserve credit for increasing the funds of the NCC so substantially? However, does he also accept that the NCC now has the capacity to deal with the vexed problem of marine nature reserves? Does he agree that we must set up the first marine nature reserve without delay, and that, if we wish the voluntary principle to survive, we have no excuse for failing to do so?
    Mr. Waldegrave: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend's remarks. During our debates on the Bill of the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark), I made it clear that if there is no measurable progress on marine nature reserves within the next 12 to 18 months the Government will wish to reconsider the matter.
    Mr. Dalyell: What does the Minister mean by "measurable progress"?
    Mr. Waldegrave: If we have not achieved an agreement to have a marine nature reserve during the next 12 to 18 months, I would regard that as sufficient evidence to cause us to reconsider the law.
    Mr. Soames: Will my hon. Friend do more to persuade the NCC to explain the excellent work that it does to a wider public? Is it not important that it has the support of the broader constituency?
    Mr. Waldegrave: That is right, and the support that the NCC is increasingly obtaining from the farming community is important in enabling it to achieve that end.
    Mr. Weetch: Would it not be a sound idea to establish strong funding so that emergency action could be taken if an area recommended as an SSSI were threatened by unnecessary and ill-thought-out commercial expansion? Does the Minister realise that such an area in the Orwell estuary is already threatened? Has the NCC made any recommendations to his Department, and, if so, what is his response?
    Mr. Waldegrave: I shall write to the hon. Gentleman about the Orwell estuary. With all-party support, the House moved to block the three-month loophole, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State showed himself ready to move quickly to make conservation orders where necessary.
    Mr. Key: Although we are all grateful for the increase in NCC funds, does my hon. Friend accept that there is an increasingly fine line between the establishment of SSSIs and other sites of special interest, which may be more archaeological than agricultural? Does he agree that additional funding may be necessary from other sources, for instance, to save some of the finest water meadows in Britain—an example of which is at Britford near Salisbury—some of which have already been ploughed up?
    Mr. Waldegrave: My hon. Friend is right to say that we must mot make the mistake of concentrating only on SSSIs. However, it is open to local authorities to make management agreements for sites of the sort to which my hon. Friend refers.
    Dr. David Clark: In order to publicise the work of the NCC, will the Minister consider making its papers available to hon. Members? In view of the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. Key) about the draining of wetlands, is the hon. Gentleman aware that a soil survey has shown that pH has fallen to as low as 2·5? Will he therefore be prepared to increase the funding of the NCC and ask it to undertake a full comprehensive soil survey of the East Anglia area in particular?
    Mr. Waldegrave: I shall consider the hon. Gentleman's latter suggestion. A great deal of other work is going on into the sources of changing acidification in water. I shall certainly consider that suggestion as well as the other one that he made.

    Water Supplies (Nitrates)
    Mr. Teddy Taylorasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has yet made a decision on the applications from water authorities to seek exemption from the regulations limiting the content of nitrates in public water supplies; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Waldegrave: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be announcing decisions soon.
    Mr. Taylor: In considering those applications, will the Minister make it clear that the Government are not giving up the battle to curb nitrate levels, which are regarded by many other Governments as a serious health hazard? Will his Department be willing to initiate action to curb the horrendous use of nitrates in intensive farming, which serves simply to produce more cereals which cannot be disposed of, and pollutes public water supplies throughout the country?
    Mr. Waldegrave: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to what is potentially a serious problem. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has recently published a code of practice about the application of nitrogenous fertilisers. We hope that it will have the desired effect.
    Viscount Cranborne: Is my hon. Friend aware of the valuable research into the effects of nitrates on the water supply conducted in particular by the Freshwater Biological Association in my constituency? Is he further aware that the cut in grant that that association now faces is likely to affect dramatically the salutary results that are being obtained from that study?
    Mr. Waldegrave: That is a matter for the Department of Education and Science and the research councils, but

    783
    the general principle, that the National Environmental Research Council is trying to move more of its research into the universities, is one which most people support.

    Housing Stock
    Mr. Pikeasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will estimate the number of pre-war council houses awaiting modernisation included in those designated difficult to let in local authorities' housing investment programme submissions for 1985–86.
    Sir George Young: The information is not available.
    Mr. Pike: Is it not time that the Minister found out just how many thousands of houses in this country are urgently awaiting modernisation, and are difficult to let, including many in my constituency? The problem is that the Government give insufficient HIP allocation and have reduced the amount of capital receipts that councils can spend. Because the burden of improving council houses is forced on to rents or rates, or a combination of the two, does the Minister accept that all those facts show that the Government's housing financial policies are a disaster and that they should be prepared to make a change?
    Sir George Young: I would not accept that for one moment. The Department depends on the local authorities for the information that it gets on the housing stock. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's constituency, there is a problem with the stock that was built between the wars, not least because when restraints on public expenditure were less strict Burnley failed to take effective action to safeguard the condition of its stock. However, in the forthcoming allocation we shall take into account the problems facing housing in Burnley.
    Mr. Malone: Does my hon. Friend agree that housing improvement, whether in the public or the private sector, is an activity that creates substantial employment opportunities at a relatively low net cost to the Treasury? Does my hon. Friend therefore agree that it would be extraordinary for us to reduce the funds available to support that activity to achieve gross savings regardless of the net effect on Government expenditure?
    Sir George Young: I am sure that my hon. Friend will be pleased to know that the amount of public money spent on improvement grants has gone up by some £90 million since we came into office, to about £700 million for the year that has just passed. Tomorrow we hope to publish a Green Paper on our proposals for improvement policy.
    Mr. Tom Clarke: When the informatin becomes available, will the Minister assure the House that he sees a relationship between the lack of response to the scheme for the modernisation of pre-war houses and the large number of bankruptcies among small firms perfectly
    784
    capable of doing that work? Is it not the case that the inadequacies of Government finance have added workers to the dole queues?
    Sir George Young: The hon. Member must try to keep this in perspective. For every £1 of public money that goes into the improvement and conversion of houses, £20 comes from the private sector. Therefore, it is important to pursue policies to ensure that the £20 is available rather than concentrating on the £1.

    Audit Commission (Report)
    Mr. Wainwrightasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the Audit Commission's report on captial spending.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I welcome the report. The commission has drawn attention to flaws in the present system which the Government had already identified and which led us to review the system in consultation with local government. The report will make a useful contribution to this work.
    Mr. Wainwright: Does the report not substantiate and amplify in the most authoritative and independent way the criticisms by the Select Committee on the Treasury and Civil Service in each of the last four years, of the Government's persistent mismanagement of public capital expenditure? Does the Secretary of State not realise the urgency of this matter, when skilled people are idle, plant is underused and people are suffering from the inadequacies of the built environment?
    Mr. Jenkin: I recognise the urgency to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I have had a series of meetings with local authority associations and officials and I hope to write shortly to the associations or to have a meeting at member level to discuss the options that the investigations have shown up. We shall then have to reach decisions as soon as possible.
    Mr. Latham: Is it not clear that the present system does not work? As my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Construction announced that this would be reviewed when he introduced the capital receipts reduction orders in the House, will my right hon. Friend assure us that a new system will be in place by the next financial year?
    Mr. Jenkin: Nobody knows better than my hon. Friend the great complexity of trying to reconcile the two objectives that have been shared by all Governments: first, the Treasury's reasonable measure of control over total public expenditure, including local authority capital expenditure and secondly, giving local authorities time horizons and certainty and flexibility so that they can plan their programmes sensibly. These are complex matters, but I hope that we shall reach decisions soon.

Bates Colliery (Closure)
3.31 pm
Mr. John Ryman: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 10, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration namely,
"the peremptory announcement of the closure of Bates colliery in Blyth yesterday by the National Coal Board."
The area director of the north-eastern area of the NCB yesterday informed officials of the NUM, in breach of all previous undertakings made by him, that Bates colliery in Blyth, which employs over 1,700 men, was to close immediately. This pit has a good record on productivity and industrial relations and high quality coal. By closing it, the Government are cold-bloodedly murdering the surrounding town of Blyth, whose economy depends entirely on the pit.
The area director of the NCB acted on the instructions of Mr. MacGregor, the chairman, and the Secretary of State for Energy, who poses in the Cabinet as a Left-wing fop, but who is instructing the NCB to carry out a murderous programme of pit closures. He has been guilty of the most serious negligence and misconduct, because only last year £2 million was invested in the pit, but it is now proposed to close it immediately, notwithstanding that recent substantial investment.
The Secretary of State was asked to reconsider the matter and yesterday the area director of the NCB said that the existing review procedure had been bypassed and that no attention had been paid to the existing review procedure. The matter is not negotiable. No consultations will take place, and the men at Bates pit can take it or leave it.
I am conscious, Mr. Speaker, that I have to satisfy you on the correct criteria for succeeding in such applications and to persuade you that the matter is so urgent that it should have priority over today's business. I submit strongly that, it should, in view of the widespread repercussions of the closure of this coal mine, a closure which delberately ignores the existing review procedure. There are 29 million tonnes on unworked but workable coal in the pit of high quality and the matter is of such grave importance that it should be debated today.
In my respectful submission, the Secretary of State for Energy has been guilty of fraud and negligence and various other forms of reprehensible misconduct involving moral turpitude, and I respectfully submit that the matter is so urgent that it should have priority over all the other business today.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Blyth Valley (Mr. Ryman) asked leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the closure of Bates colliery in Blyth, Northumberland, as announced by the NCB yesterday."
As the hon. Gentleman has said, I have to decide whether to give the matter precedence over the business set down for today or tomorrow. I have listened with care to what he has said, but I regret that I do not consider the matter that he has raised as appropriate for discussion under Standing Order No. 10 and, therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.

District Auditor (Islington)
3.35 pm
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 10, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the threat to Islington council's jobs and services by the presence of the district auditor in the town hall this morning."
I make this application because in the borough of Islington, as in the rest of the country, we have a democratically elected council and a local authority which is attempting to keep faith with the people who elected it and to maintain jobs and services. Islington council, like various other councils, has been subjected to a process of selective vindictiveness by the Government since 1979 and more than £40 million of rate support grant has been taken from the borough. Earlier this year, the Secretary of State for the Environment announced that Islington council, in common with the other poorest parts of the country, was to be rate-capped and to lose grant and that the Secretary of State would control its spending levels. Since then, in common with others and as part of its campaign to get central Government funds back, Islington borough council has not set a rate.
The matter is urgent because the district auditor—not the Secretary of State for the Environment, who is the real villain and the person who wishes to destroy the jobs and services, but a Government agent—arrived at the town hall this morning to threaten local councillors with court proceedings if they did not set a rate in the near future.
The matter is important because the council has the support of the population of Islington. More than 2,000 people turned up at the town hall this morning to express their views, and the work force feels likewise. It is also urgent because there is a danger that the Government's policies will seek to criminalise councillors in Islington and elsewhere merely for keeping faith with the manifestos on which they were elected.
It is urgent that the matter be debated in the House so that the Secretary of State can explain why he takes that attitude towards Islington and the other poorest parts of the country.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the threat to Islington council's jobs and services by the presence of the district auditor in the town hall this morning."
I have listened with care to what the hon. Gentleman has said but I regret that I do not consider the matter that he has raised as appropriate for discussion under Standing Order No. 10 and, therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.

Members' Interests
3.38 pm
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My point of order relates to applications to move Second Readings of Private Members' Bills, objections to those Bills, the right of Members to know of commercial manipulation of House affairs and the implications for Members' interests. It does not relate to any particular case of an individual's registration, as that would be a matter for the Select Committee on Members' Interests.
As the House knows, when a Member who is sponsored by a trade union or who acts as an adviser, consultant or director and is remunerated for that speaks in the House, he will make a declaration of interest in the Register and, traditionally, on the Floor of the House. The rules are clearly set out in paragraph 292(3) of the "Manual of Procedure", which states:
"A declaration should be made where appropriate at the beginning of most oral interventions in proceedings. This covers participation in debate in the House or in standing committee and at meetings of select committees".
This matter was raised with you last year several times, particularly when you ruled on my point of order about whether a declaration should be made before asking a supplementary question. You ruled:
"Looking again at the point you raised in the House after my ruling given on Monday 30 January 1984—namely, whether from the standpoint of declaring an interest, the answer to a question should be distinguished from the question itself—I have concluded that this matter would be best considered in the first instance by the Select Committee on Members' Interests and that you ought properly to raise it with them."—[Official Report, 9 February 1984; Vol. 53, c. 1039.]
I mention that because I am trying to establish whether there is a precedent for ruling in relation to these matters.
The position is now quite clear. The briefest of interventions constitutes an oral intervention for the purposes of paragraph 292(3). On 9 December last year, in column 645, the hon. Member for Batley and Spen (Mrs. Peacock) brought forward her Road Traffic (Driving Instruction) Bill. It was objected to. It was again brought forward on 16 December, reported in column 1360 and on 20 January in column 607. On each occasion it was objected to, and on all occasions by members of the alliance.
Both Government and Opposition had agreed to allow the measure to go through on the nod, as it was about raising driving instruction standards. Despite obstruction from alliance Members, the Bill only cleared the House on the fourth attempt, on 27 January, when alliance Members arrived too late to object——
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman should make a point of order to me, and should not go over old history which we know.
Mr. Campbell-Savours: This is absolutely crucial to my point of order, Mr. Speaker, as you will see as I develop it.
Having cleared the House of Commons, the Bill went to the other place. On 2 April, at the request of Lord Tordoff, the Liberal Chief Whip in the House of Lords, the House went into Committee to deal with one amendment, which would have curtailed the activities—[Interruption.] I am being barracked by Liberal Members. The amendment would have curtailed the activities of some driving instructors.
788
Lord Tordoff said:
"there is here a problem which is widely felt among the driving schools, particularly the larger ones".—[Official Report, House of Lords, 2 April 1984; Vol. 450, c. 486.]
He then referred to the British School of Motoring, which would have been a financial beneficiary had the amendment been accepted. It was by now clear that with alliance support in the House of Commons in the form of the use of the word "Object", and Lord Tordoff's speech in the other place—an oral intervention, by the way—a successful attempt had been made to extract concessions from the Government effectively to protect the position of the British School of Motoring.
We all know that Members speak up for outside interests in our debates. That is not unprecedented. Trade unions lobby Members of Parliament to raise issues, as do commercial undertakings. But on this occasion there is a distinct difference. When COHSE, the Confederation of Health Service Employees, sponsors me, from which I receive no personal remuneration but a contribution to my constituency party funds, and which at election time is worth approximately £1,300 a year towards my election expenses——
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is making a speech rather than a point of order. I think that I have got the drift of what he is trying to say.
Mr. Campbell-Savours: I have nearly finished, Mr. Speaker. In my case, that is registered in the Register of Members' Interests. Likewise, if a Conservative Member acts as a consultant director or adviser to a commercial undertaking, he similarly declares an interest. But when Liberal Members of Parliament receive on behalf of their party part of £188,000—a contribution from the British School of Motoring—and in return obstruct a Bill in the House of Commons and try to move amendments to it in the other place, not one of them has the decency to declare that to the House.
What is the difference? My sponsorship goes to my party. The Liberals' £188,000 goes to their party. A proportion of the £188,000 is spent upon promoting alliance candidates at general elections. They are, therefore, effectively sponsored. That is in addition to the use of aeroplanes by the Liberal party leader from the same source. Furthermore, Mr. Anthony Jacobs, the chairman of the British School of Motoring, when asked to comment said:
"There is nothing I wish to influence. There is nothing really to influence. You can't influence the Liberal party."
The truth is that Mr. Jacobs has effectively bought the alliance.
My point of order, Mr. Speaker, is that in the same way as in column 1039 on 9 February 1984 you were willing to conclude
"that this matter would best be considered in the first instance by the Select Committee on Members Interests"—[Official Report, 9 February 1984; Vol. 53, c. 1039.]
I ask you to do the same on this occasion.
Mr. A. J. Beith rose——
Mr. Dennis Skinner rose——
Mr. Brian Sedgemore rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. Before I rule on the matter, I must hear the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith).
Mr. Beith: Is it not an abuse of the points of order procedure to attack the personal integrity of hon. Members by way of a point of order rather than by way of a substantive motion?
Secondly, is it not a curious omission from the long account of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) that he did not mention that the amendment pursued by the alliance received fulsome support from the Front Bench of the Labour party when it was pursued in the House of Lords and that it was designed to make the Bill more effective?
Finally, had any hon. Member risen in his place on any of the occasions when the Bill was brought before the House with the promoter's intention that it should proceed without any discussion and sought to declare any personal interest, if he had one, in the matter, would not that have constituted debate arising on the matter and would it not by itself—[Interruption.]
Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am not prepared to allow a debate on this matter. The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) raised a point of order at considerable length. I thought it only fair to allow the Liberal Chief Whip to respond.
Mr. Skinner: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Workington kindly sent me a note when I had mumps saying that he would not raise a point of order with me until he felt that I was fit enough to deal with it. Therefore, I am all the more sorry that the point he has raised is not a matter for me. The rules of the House with which I am concerned apply to the declaration of pecuniary interests by individual Members, not by political parties. The hon. Member must seek other ways to pursue his complaint. The hon. Member mentioned my last piece of advice to him when he raised a point of order of a similar kind. Since he is a Member of the Select Committee on Members' Interests, that is the place where he should raise it.
Mr. Peter Hardy: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Your ruling means that those hon. Members who are sponsored by a trade union, as I am sponsored by the National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputies and Shotfirers but who receive no personal remuneration from that sponsorship need not declare it.
Mr. Speaker: I did not say that. I repeat to the hon. Member what I said: that I am concerned with the declaration of pecuniary interests by individual Members, not by political parties.
Mr. Robert Adley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I share with the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) membership of the Select Committee on Members' Interests, although I did not know that he intended to raise this matter. There is a specific point here which, as you rightly say, might be raised in our Committee, but may I suggest that the simplest way to deal with it would be for the leader of the Liberal party—his party's hypocrisy on these matters is well known in the House if not always outside—to come to the House and make a statement saying that no letters had passed or conversations had taken place between Mr. Jacobs and his representatives on the Bill?
Mr. Speaker: That is a legitimate matter for debate; it is not a point of order for me.
Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: I will take one further point of order from the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner).
Mr. Skinner: Yes, Mr. Speaker. My point of order is somewhat different, yet it is associated with the initial point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours). Since I raised the matter last week, I have received an important letter and I need some advice from you on the appropriate place to raise the matter. The letter is from a driving school, and says:
"I am writing to thank you for bringing to light the scandal involving BSM and the Liberal party. It has long been common knowledge within this profession that BSM have extremely low standards of tuition, poorly paid and under-qualified"——
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am responsible for lots of things, but not for that.
Mr. Skinner: I shall just finish the sentence.
"Unfortunately,"—
this is the point—
"their use of 'British' in their trading title has enabled them to continue in business over the years, but their performance does not live up to the promise of the name."
I have another letter from Yorkshire making the same point.
If that is the case, there was every reason to tighten up driving school standards, and from what I can gather, the Liberals were doing their level best to stop it.
Would the matter be better dealt with by the Select Committee suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Workington or by the Select Committee on Transport, so that we can unearth the scandal and find out the exact link between the sponsored Liberal Members of Parliament and the British School of Motoring and how much money they really have made over the years?
Mr. Speaker: Order. None of that is a matter for me. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should study the proceedings of the Bill which I understand passed all its stages in both Houses.
Mr. Derek Fatchett: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Is it another point of order?
Mr. Fatchett: Yes, Sir.
Mr. Speaker: Another point of order.
Mr. Fatchett: I want to raise with you, Sir, the status of the Register of Members' Interests, because it appears to me that those of us who now disclose the fact that our constituency parties are sponsored by trade unions are placed at a public disadvantage. For instance, a Liberal Member of Parliament from an adjoining constituency need not declare that he is sponsored, but I have to declare my interests for the Register of Members' Interests. I have to declare that interest when I take part in debates in the House, but somebody from an adjoining constituency does not have to declare such an interest. The only remedy left to me as a Member who has declared his interests is to withdraw my name from the Register of Members' Interests because those of us who are sponsored by trade unions will now have to declare that while other Members do not.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has raised exactly the same point of order as his hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours). It has always been the case that Members declare their personal interests; it has never previously been the case that parties declare any funds that may come from outside the House, from whatever source. If the hon. Gentleman feels strongly about that, he should consult the Registrar of Members' Interests. He will tell him.
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: I shall only take a different point of order.
Mr. Corbyn: I want to ask you something, Mr. Speaker, about your ruling.
Mr. Speaker: Briefly.
Mr. Corbyn: I listened carefully to what you said about the Liberal party receiving funds, but what is not clear from your ruling is whether, if the Liberal party receives money from the British School of Motoring—money which is passed to individual Liberal Members of Parliament—they then fall within the category of those who receive outside sponsorship. If that is the case, what they raised during the debate should fall within the purview of your questioning.
Mr. Speaker: That is a purely hypothetical matter.

Licensing Acts (Amendment)
3.55 pm
Mr. Roger Gale: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the licensing Acts for England and Wales to permit longer and flexible opening hours.
I shall try to keep my speech shorter than that by the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) on his point of order.
Today the country celebrates the 40th anniversary of the ending of the war in Europe. A great deal has changed since 8 May 1945, but some things remain much the same. After listening to the formal announcement of victory on the Home service at 3 o'clock in the afternoon 40 years ago, a man might have been moved to go out and celebrate that great event. If at the conclusion of that broadcast he had visited his local public house he would have been told, "I am sorry Sir, we are closed." The man would have been worldly wise and used to the vagaries of our licensing laws and he would not even have bothered to make the journey.
Today, 40 years on, the situation is much the same. The fundamental difference in England and Wales is that that same old soldier, moved by nostalgia, can now cross the road from his public house to the off-licence advertising "Ice cold beer sold here" and buy his cans of beer. He can then sit on the steps of his public house and provided that he does not obstruct the pedestrian highway, cause a nuisance or loiter, he can drink his beer with impunity.
The law that drives that man to that ludicrous, undignified necessity is the relic of an earlier war. It is the result of a pledge, dishonoured by this House, which instead of repealing the Defence of the Realm Act which was passed to prevent munitions workers from getting drunk in 1915, took DORA—as that Act is less than affectionately known—and distilled her, first as the Licensing Act 1921 and subsequently as the Licensing Acts of 1961 and 1964.
I seek to introduce a Bill to amend those antiquated wartime measures which are in force in England and Wales. I propose that, with the consent of the licensing justices, the licensee of a public house shall be permitted to open, by prior determination, for any 12 of the 14 hours between 10 am and midnight. I propose that the opening hours be published outside the public house for the information of the general public and, of course, of the police. I propose that a minimum number of hours a year be laid down during which a public house shall be open to the public. Such a minimum number will permit the publican, as of right, to close for such hours of the day, days of the week, weeks of the month or even months of the year when in his commercial judgment there is insufficient trade to justify his opening. Those closing times shall also be published and made available.
The Bill will be supported by many hon. Members who have taken a keen interest in the growth of our tourist industry. Perhaps rightly, that industry is regarded as the greatest industrial success story of our time. Tourism is a growing industry which is worth millions of dollars and many thousands of jobs to the British Isles. Those who seek to promote that industry—the tourist boards of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, Government Departments and the trade itself—bear much of the responsibility and must therefore take much of the credit for its continuing and growing success.

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This season it is expected that for financial and other reasons more foreign tourists will visit these shores than ever before and that more domestic holidaymakers will stay at home. There is, therefore, a tremendous opportunity to consolidate a market. We should not lightly throw away that opportunity.
More work must still be done. We must improve the standards of our hotels, restaurants and guest houses and introduce a voluntary registration scheme which allows a visitor quickly to recognise the standards. We must guarantee real value for money and promote facilities, attractions and our heritage. All these matters are for the industry to tackle, with Government backing.
This House can also help. Today I ask hon. Members for leave to introduce one small measure to help us to put out the welcome mat in time for this summer season, so that the hitherto perplexed foreign visitor and domestic holidaymaker can buy an alcoholic drink in the cool of an English pub in the heat of a summer afternoon in Britain, as they can almost anywhere else in the civilised world.
This House has much pressing and important business before it this afternoon, and I do not want to rehearse any of the arguments that more properly belong to a Second Reading debate. However, it would be wrong of me to promote this measure without indicating my awareness of and respect for the concern shown by those in the House who have consistently opposed the introduction of longer and more flexible licensing hours.
Before my election to this House, I studied for the preparation of a television programme on alcoholism and problem drinking, especially among the young—[Interruption.] I said that much in the House had not changed in 40 years and our licensing laws are undoubtedly part of that. I suspect that in 40 years the same Opposition Members will be heckling from the same Opposition Benches.
As part of my research I was privileged to undergo a 12-week training course with the ACCEPT organisation on what it called sensible drinking skills. [Laughter.] Hon. Members may find cause for levity in that, but the purpose of that organisation's presence in this country is to try to prevent people, especially young people and those with severe alcohol problems, from drinking too much.
I repeat that I am therefore aware of the problems and concerns expressed previously by many hon. Members. I have no wish to exacerbate those difficulties—nor, I suspect, does any hon. Member, and certainly not those who seek with me to introduce this Bill.
Much has been made, and will no doubt continue to be made, of the results of the Scottish experiment. The House awaits the report of the population survey carried out by the Scottish Office. There are those who feel that I should have waited until its publication before seeking to introduce this measure.
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I wish briefly to make a prediction based upon discussions with a representative of the alcohol research unit at the university department of psychiatry at the Royal Edinburgh hospital. The report will produce a neutral set of results. It will, of course, demonstrate—as the statistics show—that the incidence of conviction for alcohol-related offences in Scotland has, since the implementation of a small part of the Clayson report, fallen. It will also show that, since 1976, consumption of alcohol has fallen in Scotland—but so, it will be argued, has it fallen elsewhere.
What is certain is that a change in the law has led to what Professor Christopher Clayson described as a more civilised style of drinking in a more relaxed and socially controlled environment. That relaxation has not yet embraced the dramatic change in drinking style—a major shift towards the consumption of alcohol in a family environment—that Professor Clayson envisaged, but it is certainly a step in the right direction.
I am convinced, both from my own observations and from the research of those more experienced and more qualified than I, that the solution to the affliction of alcoholism and problem drinking will come not from the enforcement of quaint licensing regulations that are both inconsistent and abused, but through education and the acquisition of the sensible drinking skills taught through the ACCEPT programme. Those skills are more likely to be acquired in the controlled atmosphere of a public house that is open at reasonable hours than through bout drinking sessions created through truncated opening hours topped up with alcohol acquired either from an off-licence or from a supermarket at virtually any time and consumed without supervision.
I am grateful for your patience, Mr. Speaker. I seek to introduce a measure that has the rare distinction of carrying with it the potential creation of employment, popular appeal and, as I hope I have demonstrated, social desirability. A Bill under the ten-minute rule is, as we all know, fragile. But if the House this afternoon gives me leave to introduce my Bill, those who differ from its aims should recognise the value of deploying their arguments in Committee and should not prevent this measure from having a Second Reading.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Roger Gale, Miss Janet Fookes, Mr. Richard Alexander, Mr. David Gilroy Bevan, Mr. John Butterfill, Mr. Conal Gregory, Mr. Rob Hayward, Mr. Greg Knight, Mr. Barry Porter, Mr. Albert McQuarrie, and Mr. Colin Shepherd.
LICENSING ACTS (AMENDMENT)
Mr. Roger Gale accordingly presented a Bill to amend the licensing Acts for England and Wales to permit longer and flexible opening hours; And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 10 May and to be printed. [Bill 144.]

Orders of the Day

  Finance Bill
  (Clauses 3, 10, 35, 40, 54, 64 and 87 and schedules 12, 16 and 22)
  Considered in Committee [Progress 7 May]
  [SIR PAUL DEAN in the Chair]

  Finance Bill

    Clause 64
    MODIFICATION OF INDEXATION ALLOWANCE
    4.6 pm
    Mr. Neil Hamilton: I beg to move amendment No. 12, in page 59, line 26, leave out 'indexation allowance' and insert 'chargeable gain'.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir W. Clark) is unable to be here today, and in the absence of any more alluring invitations I have agreed to become his PPS for this debate. As we see eye to eye on these matters, I thought that I should say what he would have said had he been here.
    Last year my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer promised to reform capital taxation, especially capital gains tax, in the 1985 Finance Bill. The indexation provisions that we are debating today appear to represent the full extent of that reform, and, of course, the reliefs given are most welcome.
    One widely recognised anomaly—which I believe Treasury Ministers also recognise—is that the system of capital gains tax as it now applies has ceased to be a capital gains tax in the general sense and has become a 17-year inflation tax covering the years 1965 to 1982. That results from the indexation provision introduced by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) when he was Chancellor.
    Confusion surrounds the tax, and that makes it an inefficient and ineffective tax. It is also an unjust tax, especially for the long-term investors who acquired their assets during the 17-year period or who held assets when the tax was introduced. It was introduced as a short-term tax, but, in effect, we have removed that element of the tax and made it bite hardest against those who have held assets for a significant period. That will become worse as the years go by and as the number of those investors diminishes.
    There will also be considerable administrative difficulties. The new rules, especially those allowing indexation losses—which I welcome—are complex. Schedule 16 adds an additional eight pages to the statute book, which I regret because that means more work for accountants and lawyers. I do not complain so much about that as about the additional work for business men, especially those involved in small and family businesses.
    Those who remember the administrative difficulties surrounding valuation when the tax was introduced in 1965, hardly relish the problems and the administrative and accountancy costs of now determining the March 1982 values, especially for land and unquoted family companies.
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    A simple solution to those difficulties is contained in the amendment. Far from seeking to extend the indexation provisions, which would be cumbersome and complex, the amendment seeks the simple solution of treating property as having been acquired in 1982.
    This change would incur a cost, I do not deny, but in terms of its rationality, there is much to be said for it. For example, the complicated 1965 transitional provisions would cease to be important and it would no longer be necessary to delve into history to calculate, for example, allowable expenditure. Valuations, in particular, would relate to a period much more within the practical experience of practitioners and valuers.
    Furthermore, fewer valuations would be required. At present, it is possible that before computing the chargeable gain, the land or other asset concerned must be valued both for a 1965 and a 1982 value. The amendment seeks a simplification in that the 1965 or other valuation would no longer have to take place.
    The amendment would be particularly helpful to those family businesses that have been carried on through long-established companies where the double charge to capital gains tax on liquidation inhibits the sensible reorganisation of the business. Those are valuable reforms that we might make in this complicated tax as it now stands, a tax which will bring in a diminishing revenue year on year as real gains only are taxed and not the inflationary gains that we have had since the tax was introduced.
    If my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary is not minded to accept the amendment, he might care to consider another way in which this part of the Bill could be simplified. It comes in the form of a simple suggestion that has been put forward by the Institute of Directors. The institute proposes that after an asset has been held for seven years, it should drop out of the charge to tax and should not be available for a loss to be acquired for the purposes of computing one's capital gains tax liability. That alternative also merits consideration.
    Consider, for example, an asset which has maintained its real value throughut the period up to 1982. We find an extraordinary situation. By April 1982, the asset would have accumulated an inflationary taxable gain—which will still be taxable after the Bill has become an Act unless an amendment is accepted—of 85 per cent. of its real value if it were originally acquired in April 1965; of 75 per cent. if acquired in April 1975; and of 42 per cent. if acquired in April 1978. That is not acceptable.
    Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that at a time when Ministers repeatedly ask the British public to take in the waste and cut out excess, to accept cuts in social services and education spending and to accept increases in bus fares, it sticks in the throat to have him move an amendment which would effectively reduce the amount raised by way of capital gains tax, a tax that is paid by few people in society and invariably by those with great wealth? Is he aware that he is not serving the national interest by moving this amendment, particularly when in Manchester, which is close to his constituency, hundreds of thousands of people are living in poverty and deprived circumstances? Why does he favour the few at the cost of the many?
    Mr. Hamilton: I do not accept the premise on which the hon. Gentleman makes that intervention. The simplification which this tax change would bring about

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    would mean that many people who are now engaged in activities which can hardly be regarded as productive would turn their energies elsewhere, which in turn would produce more real jobs in the economy and thus contribute towards the creation of that enterprise culture which we have done so much to achieve in the past six years. Priorities in expenditure are, of course, for the Government to determine, and I have not denied that a cost would be incurred in making this change. I am pleading for a more rational tax system, which I hope Opposition Members will support.
    4.15 pm
    There is an injustice involved in this tax, which is a clog on free markets because there is—to the extent that it taxes inflationary and not real gains—a considerable disincentive to disposing of assets to reinvest the money, at least in certain types of company. To that extent it prevents individuals from making investments which are likely to be most productive.
    There are many reasons to support the amendment and other forms of reform that are proposed in the area about which I am speaking. I will not go further into the detail of the argument. I seek only to invite the Government to take two steps. The first is to admit that there is no justification for not giving relief in some appropriate form, not necessarily by means of indexation, for pre-1982 inflation, except in terms of the cost to the Exchequer, which will diminish year by year. Secondly, I want my right hon. and learned Friend to promise action in future, so long as Exchequer costs can be justified, to remedy the injustice.
    Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: I support the amendment, which was tabled in the first instance by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir W. Clark). I must at the outset declare a distinct personal interest, having just agreed to sell an asset in my ownership; and if the Committee agreed to the amendment, I should not be liable to a substantial payment by way of capital gains tax to which I shall otherwise be liable.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: The hon. Gentleman is at least honest.
    Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: Having spoken for myself, I know that I am speaking for thousands of my constituents and hundreds of thousands of other citizens who are obliged to pay what I consider to be an unfair form of capital gains tax.
    I do not disagree with the idea of a capital gains tax being levied in cases where people make a regular income—and I am not saying that it is wrong that they should do so—by achieving small capital gains in the course of their work, such as those who work in the commodity markets. It is right that where they are using capital gains as a form of income, something equivalent to income tax should be levied.
    It seems absolutely wrong, however, for us to retain this survival from the great inflation of the 1970s. It is the wrong way to raise a capital gains tax. It is, in fact, a capital levy rather than a respectable tax and it should not be continued in the Bill.
    The Government are obviously ashamed of this form of taxation because they have started nibbling away at it
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    again. Their right course, however, would have been to have got rid of the tax altogether in so far as it refers simply to inflationary gains. There are many reasons for that. For example, it is a random levy. It is not raised on everyone who owns capital but on those who manage their assets competently and who decide to change their portfolios so as to invest in the future rather than to hold on to the investments of the past. It does not touch people who are content to hold on to yesterday's investments.
    It is wrong also on the Treasury's part in that it is continuing to use this tax as something which, as the Minister said on Second Reading, is regarded as a source of revenue. If the Government were to use the proceeds from this capital levy as capital, that might be more respectable, although it would still be wrong. As he admitted, the Treasury simply raises this money as a capital levy and then applies it as revenue. This is yet another insight into the muddled thinking of the Treasury which does not distinguish properly between the capital account and the revenue account. This tax also distorts the capital market.
    Dr. Oonagh McDonald: The hon. Gentleman has made a point about regarding a capital gain as revenue. How does the hon. Gentleman think the Treasury regards the sale of British Gas? Does it regard the sale as revenue or not?
    Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: The hon. Lady has put her finger on an extremely serious point. The Government need capital and revenue. They should differentiate between the sources of the money that they take from society, and have a properly stated capital account and revenue account. Until we have that, we shall never be able to penetrate into what the Government are doing with regard to the economy.
    This tax distorts the capital market because it prevents the adjustment of share prices which would benefit rising companies seeking new funds. It helps to sustain the price of shares in companies which are suspected by investors but because of the tax they do not sell, because they are not prepared to suffer the loss involved in changing their holding. This is a drag on the stock market's efficiency.
    The tax also has the effect of diminishing the private sector of the stock market. In past years it has been decided that unit and investment trusts and the like are not required to pay this tax when they change their portfolios, but private sector investors must continue to do so. The diminishing private sector faces a particular penalty because of the way in which the Government continue to raise this capital gains tax.
    The stock market in London is being weakened because there is a diminishing number of people to make up their minds on a particular issue. The herd of institutional investors tend to move in the same way at the same time. The London market is becoming dangerously unstable. It is wrong that we should diminish the number of people who are willing from time to time, because of their personal knowledge, judgment and ability, to draw on other sources of advice, to take a contrary view to that of the market.
    The Government are acting against their own best principles in continuing this tax. It is the opposite of the ideal of private thrift and self-provision. Lately we have heard my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister—I think that all Conservative Members agree—say that she

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    wants to initiate an era in which everyone can be a capitalist. Yet the Treasury is continuing with this unfair form of capital gains tax. It is particularly inapposite at a time when we want to place more emphasis on the need for people to provide for their own retirement through personal pension schemes. People who obtain a pension through one of the established institutions will be able to rely on a body that is exempt from taxation, including capital gains tax. People who try to provide for their old age through their own earnings will remain in the category of those who are hit by this tax.
    The Government have done a great deal with regard to indexation and have taken away much of the stigma of this tax for people making their first investment choices; but it is still wrong to impose a retrospective tax on inflation. If we want capitalism to succeed, we must take off the brakes. I understand the sincerity of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours)—he is not in the Chamber now—who is concerned about the burden of taxation and the way in which the Government plan their expenditure within a limited budget; but it is wrong to raise money from the capital market by confiscation. If the Government want to raise money from the capital market, they should pay for it on market terms, and not by relying on obsolete legislation, which imposes a partial and unfair capital levy. It is the role of the House to watch what the Executive is doing when levying taxation on our people. Unfortunately, all too often, hon. Members fall down on that role because the major Opposition party regards itself as the party of high taxation and welcomes increases in taxes. It is not prepared to stand up for the people who are unfairly taxed.
    Mr. Stuart Randall: The Government want to increase taxes.
    Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: I have heard hon. Members, from the same party as the hon. Gentleman, who revel in the idea of increasing taxation, making the rich squeak, and so on. I do not say that there should not be taxation, but it must be proved to be necessary and shown to be fair. This tax is neither, and that is why the Committee should accept the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Hamilton).
    The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Peter Rees): Although we are sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir W. Clark) has not been here to move his interesting amendment, I am sure that we are all glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Hamilton) resisted more alluring invitations. How could there be a more alluring invitation than one to participate in a debate in Standing Committee on capital taxation, especially in relation to the Finance Bill? I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton on his discrimination and the sensitivity with which he moved the amendment. I am sure that hon. Members welcome also the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir B. Rhys Williams) who has thought long and deeply about this and other matters relating to the operation of our capital markets.
    The amendment is not restricted to the elimination of the inflationary element of gains accrued before 1982. In fact, it moves the whole base line forward, taking the matter a good deal further. There may be a case, although it was not developed in full, for moving the base line forward—my hon. Friends the Members for Tatton and
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    for Kensington touched on the matter of simplicity—but that is a slightly broader case than that based on inflation between 1965 and 1982.
    A short-term gains tax was introduced in case VII of schedule D which was set up in the Finance Act 1962. It was limited to the disposal of most assets within a year, but disposal of real property within three years. Such was the appetite of the Labour party, for a period from 1965 the short-term gains tax was run in double harness with the longer-term capital gains tax with which we are still saddled. We abolished that short-term gains tax. We are left purely with what might be called a long-term gains tax.
    I take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton about the ravages of inflation. No doubt we shall have a chance to consider the general principles underlying this aspect when we consider the motion that the clause stand part of the Bill. I have no doubt that that occasion will be admirably utilised by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald).
    We can consider how equitable it is to have something which is described as a capital gains tax but which, to a degree, impinges on inflationary and not real gains. I point out one practical reason for suggesting to the Committee that it should resist the blandishments of my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton. The cost will be £550 million. My hon. Friend would say that that demonstrates the extent of the damage. The amendment, however, goes wider than inflationary gains—it brings the base line forward. The cost would be considerable.
    The amendment would be slightly capricious in its effects. For example, between 1965 and 1982 agricultural land increased in value, on average, by about 750 per cent. while voting shares increased by 250 per cent. In both cases, there were dramatic increases. Moving the base line forward for all assets, regardless of their quality, would have a capricious impact.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Tatton rested his case on the ground of rationality, which I think, on closer investigation, meant simplification. I would be the first to commend any amendment that was designed to simplify this extraordinarily arcane and complex field of law. I suspect that many of the complex provisions with which capital gains tax is presently encrusted would survive. I doubt whether real simplification would be achieved. The logic of my hon. Friend's case is that the tax should be abolished. That raises an interesting area of debate, but it is not one that my hon. Friend has chosen to employ on this occasion.
    When an original base line was introduced at the time the first capital gains tax was levied in 1965, the taxpayer was given the option of adopting a time apportionment method to arrive at his capital gain or of taking the 1965 base line. I notice that, perhaps in the interests of simplicity, my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South chose not to introduce that concept in the amendment. Not all taxpayers will feel that the suggested solution was as equitable as my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington has suggested. My hon. Friend widened the debate. He reflected on the impact of such capital taxation on the operation of capital markets. I take his point. May I be bold enough to advance the general proposition that few forms of direct taxation do not distort the operation of the markets to a degree? Regrettably, few civilised states have been able to dispense with direct taxation.

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    We could have an interesting debate on the relative merits of direct and indirect taxation and how they impinge upon the markets, but I suspect that I should be travelling a little wide and that even your indulgence, Sir Paul, might be strained to the limit. I merely leave my hon. Friend and the Committee with that thought.
    4.30 pm
    The hon. Member for Thurrock mentioned the composition of Government accounts and asked whether the yield of capital taxation should be allocated solely to capital expenditure. I should be the last to claim perfection for the public expenditure White Paper although, in a constitutional and perhaps in a personal sense, I have to accept responsibility for it. I was happy to do so in our debates before Easter.
    The Committee will, however, recall that one of the innovations and improvements introduced was table 112 which sets out capital expenditure. If my hon. Friends study that table, they will see that the Government's capital expenditure is running at £22 billion per annum—considerably more than the yield of capital taxes and privatisation. I hope that the Government meet the point acceptably made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington. I am not claiming perfection for Government accounts and if we can set out that point with greater clarity, we shall endeavour to do so.
    We have had an interesting debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Tatton has conceded that the amendment goes a little wider than he wished. The general principles have been well deployed. I hope that my hon. Friends will feel that they have had a sufficient airing. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton will recognise that for many reasons, in particular the practical ground of cost, I cannot commend the amendment to the House. I hope that I shall not tax the patience of the House too much if I ask it to accept that capital gains tax is now on an acceptable and sustainable basis.
    Mr. Hamilton: I accept what my right hon. and learned Friend says about the case made for the amendment. I said at the end of my remarks that I was looking for an indication from him that it was only cost that was preventing the Government from accepting a measure of indexation for the period 1965–82, that the Government would keep the matter under review and that when we could afford to introduce such a reform, the Government intended to do so.
    Mr. Rees: I should like to be able to succumb to my hon. Friend's blandishments, which are so moderate and charming. It is natural that cost oppresses the Chief Secretary. One must be interested in the brutal facts of public finance. However, I ventured to deploy one or two other points which oppressed me. I should hate to say that my mind or those of my right hon. and hon. Friends were ever closed to the possibility of improving our tax system, for many parts of which I could not claim perfection.
    The considerable reforms will be tested in the clause stand part debate. There may be criticisms from the Opposition. There may be unanimity on that aspect of our fiscal affairs, but somehow I doubt it.
    I hope that my hon. Friends will support me in feeling that if clause 64 and the schedule attached to it commend themselves to the Committee, the tax will, at any rate for
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    all present purposes, be regarded as acceptable and sustainable. I hope on that basis that my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton will not feel disposed to press the amendment to a Division.
    Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: I was going to say that my arguments had been overcome by the suavity, knowledge and skill of my right hon. and learned Friend which make him such an asset to the Treasury team; but I find it necessary to contradict one point—his suggestion that capital gains tax is now on an acceptable and sustainable basis. I cannot agree with that. I hope that this is a matter that the Treasury will bear in mind when planning the taxation changes to which we look forward during the Government's term of office, if not during the course of the Bill.
    My right hon. and learned Friend said that the amendment goes wider than the inflationary issue. It therefore goes wider than the intention for which I was arguing, and I shall not seek to divide the Committee on the issue, although that had been my intention when I first rose.
    I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to realise that many people in this country sincerely believe that this form of taxation is wrong. The Government should not indulge in practices which are unfair and damaging to the capital market and which are contrary to the Prime Minister's principles.
    Amendment negatived.
    Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
    Dr. McDonald: The Opposition felt that the debate on amendment No. 12 was a matter for the Conservative Benches, but I must commend the hon. Member for Kensington (Sir B. Rhys Williams) for the refreshing honesty with which he put his arguments. He referred to the fact that he had a strong and immediate personal interest in the outcome of the matter. That is refreshing and, as we have heard this afternoon, it was a better performance than that of some other hon. Members.
    The theme of the hon. Member's argument on the amendment is relevant to clause 64. Clause 64 and the amendment aim to inflation-proof capital gains. We should pause on that issue for a moment because the underlying principles will require justification by the Chief Secretary.
    Clause 64 represents the Government's determination to protect a section of the community against the ravages of inflation. We can perhaps understand that, but we cannot understand the fact that the Government set a stony face against the request of others in the community—teachers, nurses, civil servants and others—to have their income inflation-proofed. Last night, the Chief Secretary was asked to justify the unequal treatment given to one section of the community compared with another, and he manifestly failed to do so. An important issue is at stake here which affects many poor people, and he should explain why the Government are prepared at some cost to inflation-proof the gains made by a tiny proportion of society and to do nothing for teachers, nurses, civil servants and many other public servants. Not only does the clause require a general justification of that kind, but it needs rather a special justification these days. After all, it could better be argued in the past that the main source of capital gains was inflation but now, and perhaps only

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    recently, returns on investment might be regarded as real returns rather than inflationary gains. Therefore, one could say that the Government, in introducing a clause such as this which has as part of its purpose to protect capital against inflation, are doing it at just the wrong time. They are doing it when people are making real returns rather than merely inflationary gains.
    The Government cannot have it both ways, of course. They cannot say on the one hand that they have conquered inflation and on the other that they need to protect capital gains from the ravages of inflation. They have to go for one line or the other. They cannot have both at the same time.
    The Government might well argue that they are out to promote wider share ownership and therefore they must protect such shareholders from an overbearing tax burden. They want direct investment in equities by individual shareholders in their own right and as a substitute for investment through financial institutions. The Government might argue that reductions in capital gains would stimulate growth in the number of small shareholders which, of course, the Government have stated as their purpose. However, since no tax is payable on gains in any one year of up to £5,900 after the Budget, and exemptions are available for unit and investment trusts, the prospects of any small shareholder being liable for capital gains tax directly or indirectly are very remote. Therefore, small shareholders will not gain particularly from the clause because they are unlikely to be liable for capital gains tax anyway.
    The hon. Member for Kensington, in an honest and open speech, made the important point that the Government are nibbling away at capital gains tax. I think that some members of the Government would very much like to abolish capital gains tax at one fell stroke, but instead the Government, perhaps because that would be too obviously a favour to the better off in society, have decided gradually to reduce the impact with the various changes that they have made, including clause 64. Indeed, there are—although the Chief Secretary, I am not surprised to notice, did not outline them—good arguments for having capital gains taxation, and it is worth while mentioning one or two of them. It is important to keep the general principles in mind before we get lost in the details of a complicated clause such as this.
    Many would say that there is nothing wrong with stock market speculation and that it provides a valuable financial function in a free market. They might go on to say that, although it has that kind of function, there is no need to give speculators what amounts to a substantial tax incentive to play their chosen role. One might continue the argument by saying that if investors are allowed to make capital gains tax some kind of optional tax and to accumulate a tax credit by establishing short-term losses—which, indeed, is the sort of thing that can be done under the indexation rules in clause 64—then the whole of capital gains tax would become a farce, yielding no revenue. If that were the end product, it might be cheaper and more sensible to have no tax.
    4.45 pm
    A capital gains tax does not discourage investment. The right way to encourage investment is not to be soft on capital gains but instead to have a sensible and effective regime of capital gains tax. Such arguments will be put forward for having a capital gains tax. Indeed, they were
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    put forward by the Chancellor in The Sunday Telegraph in 1962. I wish that he had stuck to the principles that he there set out clearly and rather well instead of abandoning them and taking up some of the options which he so clearly decried in that article, especially the one about establishing short-term losses, thus making the whole tax a farce. It is a pity that he did not stick to his earlier principles because then we would have a fairer tax regime than we shall have after the passage of the Bill.
    The changes in capital gains tax are designed to benefit the better off. Some of them already find a capital gains tax useful—and I am aware, of course, that the Government have eliminated one of those with the bond-washing measures that have been introduced—because it is convenient to take returns in the form of capital gains taxed at 30 per cent. with a threshold of £5,900 a year and indexation rather than taking returns as income taxed in full at up to 60 per cent. Therefore, the structure of capital gains tax already gives a clear incentive to seek capital gain rather than income, and to choose equity investments rather than deposits or gilts. But incentive already existed before the changes in the Budget and, apart from the bond-washing proposals, the Budget has done little to alter that.
    The kind of people who benefit from the changes proposed in the clause are not the small shareholders or the people on average or below average incomes; they are portfolio investors, wealthy individuals with a share portfolio. The changes will also benefit corporations with liquid resources which would themselves take out portfolios as investments. The indexation will reduce chargeable gains generally and will reduce the tax base for such companies. Those who will benefit from the changes in the clause are therefore a fairly small minority of the population and certainly to be numbered among the better off. To them the Government propose to give more money, and to do so at great expense.
    Although I do not agree with the amendment, I think that the hon. Member for Kensington rightly made the point that the measures are complicated, and they will certainly be complicated to administer. Not only will they lead to a growth in the activities of accountants and others, but they will also increase the activities of the Inland Revenue staff. Extra staff will probably be required to be taken on by the Inland Revenue as a result of the clause. I suggest the following figures, and it will be interesting to know whether the Chief Secretary agrees with them. The increases in staff will probably begin not before April 1987. They will lead to an increase of 190 in that year, 360 in the following year and 455 in the year following that. Thereafter, the figures of extra staff required will probably begin to decline somewhat.
    It is difficult to estimate the costs of the extra staff, but undoubtedly they would have to be staff at a fairly high level—tax officers or inspectors. It would not be cheap. At the current salaries, they would probably cost the Revenue about £10,000 in salary plus the additional expenses of employment. The tax change is expensive to administer. The Opposition would not necessarily object to the employment of more staff, and we would certainly not object to the employment of higher grade staff, but we object to the fact that the Government are introducing a measure which will cause more staff to be employed by the Inland Revenue to give money to those who do not need it—the better off.
    The changes follow the watering down of capital gains tax, which took place under the previous Chancellor of the

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    Exchequer. In 1980, there was a big increase in the gains exemption, from £1,000 to £3,000. The benefit was extended by no longer withdrawing the exemption from those whose gains were obtained at above that level. The allowance was bumped up again in 1982 to £5,000, and increased each year thereafter in line with the retail price index. In 1982, the previous Chancellor began indexing the CGT base, but the changes that he proposed and that were passed pleased nobody. They were complicated and difficult to administer. All the changes have, at least in the long term, reduced the amount of revenue which can be expected from CGT to a quarter or less of what it would otherwise have been. Therefore, this nibbling away at CGT has reduced the amount of revenue that the Government can expect from it.
    The Chancellor in his 1985 Budget continued that process with the indexation provision and with the introduction of the pooling of assets provisions. There is no need for me to go into detail because those provisions are spelt out in the clause and schedule.
    The Chief Secretary said that the Chancellor had now reached an acceptable form of CGT, and that it would be unlikely that any further changes in the form of capital gains tax would take place. He may be right. Few further changes are needed if the Financial Times was correct in saying:
    "Very few private investors will ever again have to pay capital gains tax, as a result of the changes announced on Tuesday."
    The Investors Chronicle, which was more anxious in welcoming the changes, said of them:
    "Most significantly they mean that CGT for all investments made after March 1982 is now a tax on real net gains, an important step forward."
    I can understand the qualified welcome that the Investors Chronicle gave to the changes. Its comments show the extent of the Government's changes.
    The pooling provisions mean that, as more shares are bought, the latest pool increases in size and value, and eventually investors will have only one pool—the post-1982 pool. Given that the overall upward trend in share prices—that has been true for the past two years—is averaged out, the CGT payable on the disposal of shares is less than it would have been if the pooling arrangements had not been introduced. In other words, both the indexation of changes and the reintroduction of pooling contained in clause 64 mean that the amount of revenue that the Government can obtain in future from CGT will be far less than it might otherwise have been. For that reason, it is easy to see why the Chancellor says that the tax is now on a broadly acceptable and sustainable basis, and why the Government have delighted all but their greediest critics.
    Amendment No. 12 was designed not to iron out anomalies, as its proponents said, but to allow the March 1982 costs to be used in place of the historical cost so that the entire gain accruing before March 1982 would become tax free. It is easy to see the benefits that would follow from such a change, and why the Chief Secretary suggested that the cost of that would be immense. Obviously, the benefits from such a change would have particularly favoured property companies, for example. The Government have certainly pleased many of the better off, but it is plain that they can never give enough to keep some of them happy.
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    One or two features of the changes that the Government have made in clause 64 may mean that they will be more generous than they had intended. Perhaps the Chief Secretary would comment on that. Compound indexation is now possible under the rules.
    Let us suppose that one has a holding in securities in a company called Blacks, and one bed and breakfasts one's shares each year. Every time one sells, one receives the benefit of that year's indexation because one buys back at a higher price—inflation plus any growth in the value of Blacks' shares. The following year's indexation allowance is based on a percentage of the new acquisition costs, not the real costs to the owner of the shares. No real extra costs are incurred in the buying and selling that takes place. At present, nothing in the clause or schedule prevents a benefit from compound indexation of that type.
    I ask the Chief Secretary to consider a further case. Let us suppose that a portfolio now worth £50,000 was bought in 1984 when the Financial Times all-share index, which I am using, was 102 points below its present level. The indexation allowance based on the March retail price index figures gives a real gain in one year of 70 points. The portfolio is now worth £50,000 and was valued in May 1984 at £41,892. That is a difference of just over £8,000. The indexation allowance amounts to £2,549 and the exemption level is £5,559. The capital gains tax indexation allowance in clause 64 and the annual allowance will allow a £50,000 portfolio to be bed and breakfasted every year without CGT liability.
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    I am not sure whether the Government intended the changes to produce such an effect. If they did, the changes will benefit the better off alone in the community. Not many of my constituents have portfolios of £50,000 that could be treated in such a way. If they intend the change to have that effect, they are being wrongly over-generous in these apparently straitened times by allowing the better off to pay no tax. If they did not intend such generosity, they should introduce amendments to tidy up the provisions of clause 64 and schedule 16, because at present they contain nothing to prevent that from happening.
    The Chief Secretary will be aware that as soon as the Government introduce such a measure, and the other anti-tax avoidance measures contained in the schedule, the tax-planning industry goes to work to find other loopholes. I draw his attention to "Gremlin Corner"—it is aptly named—in the 4 May 1985 edition of Taxation, which states on page 87:
    "Another tax planning point is that it will be possible to create … an artificial allowable loss by purchasing a high-coupon gilt and selling it within the year (but after 27 February 1986). Even if the purchase and sale prices are the same, indexation allowance will create a capital gains tax loss. This stratagem is likely to appeal to institutional investors and individuals paying income tax at 40 per cent. or less."
    They are not the most well off in society, but they are among the better off. What action will the Government take to prevent that tax avoidance? We wish to hear the Chief Secretary's views on that point.
    By introducing the changes in capital gains tax, the Government are helping exactly the same people as they helped last year when they abolished investment income surcharge. That benefited people with investments of £75,000 or more—again, not many of my constituents have £70,000 tucked away in investments. We were told

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    that the full-year cost of that would be £360 million. Immediately after that Budget, The Times described the abolition of investment incomes surcharge as
    "A tremendous bonus for the rich, and especially the idle rich."
    The cost of that change, together with the £155 million that it will cost to introduce the changes in clause 64, would be just enough to cover the payment of long-term supplementary benefit this year to those who have been unemployed for more than a year. That would cost the Government £500 million, but I bet that if we asked the Chief Secretary now whether the Government would be willing to benefit the long-term unemployed in that way, he would say, "We do not have the money to do that. We cannot possibly make such a change, because we do not have £500 million in the kitty." Yet the abolition of the investment income surcharge and the changes in capital gains tax could easily cover the payment of much-needed benefits to people who are not among the idle rich, but who have been forced by the Government to be idle. For that reason, we oppose the presence of the clause in the Bill.
    Mr. Michael Stern: Unlike the hon. Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald), I welcome the presence of clause 64 as a necessary relieving provision. I shall address my remarks to subsection (5).
    I especially welcome subsection (5) because, without it, the clause would have provided for the creation of a new Doomsday Book at March 1982. It would have been necessary, on any future capital gain, to agree with the Inland Revenue a value at March 1982. I welcome the inclusion of the provision that the taxpayer must make a claim before the new provisions can operate. Such a provision will ensure that many taxpayers will not have to bear the expense of establishing a value at 1982 to claim what may, especially as a result of the Government's partial success in reducing inflation, be fairly limited relief.
    The fact that the new provisions will operate only following a claim by a taxpayer will ensure that the compliance costs inherent in the clause will be limited. At the same time, the benefit of the relieving provision will go where it is most needed.
    May I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to clarify the status of a claim under subsection (5)? Is it irrevocable, or can it he withdrawn at any time? I have a special reason for asking that question, because I must contrast the relieving provision in clause 64 with what was admitted to be a relieving provision in the 1965 legislation that introduced capital gains tax. The then Labour Government saw clearly that the operation of capital gains tax would be grossly unfair—it was grossly unfair anyway, given the inflation that they later created—to those who had old assets that fluctuated markedly in value. Therefore, they introduced a provision for valuation at April 1965, but it was introduced only on the basis of an irrevocable election by the taxpayer.
    The result was that a taxpayer who owned an asset such as jewellery, a painting or land, which was a chargeable asset that he had sold and which fluctuated in value over the years, was given, not a relieving provision but a ticket in a lottery. The result of the lottery was that he entered, and could end up paying substantially more tax as a result of entry, or he did not enter and wondered what would have happened had he entered.
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    If the claim under subsection (5) is irrevocable, in some circumstances exactly the same effect could occur. The taxpayer could elect for the indexation provisions to apply and could then discover that, as a result of the opinion of the district valuer, which could be upheld by the courts, the value of his asset at March 1982 was considerably lower than it originally cost.
    I take it that the intention of clause 64 is not to penalise the taxpayer, but to compensate him for inflation. Therefore, it would seem rather unfair if, as a result of the provision, the taxpayer ended up paying more tax, particularly when such additional tax liability would be based solely on the opinion of one or more valuers.
    The evil that I have outlined could have been dealt with already in the clause. If my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary can assure me that a claim made under subsection (5) can be withdrawn at any time prior to determination of the capital gains tax assessment for the year, even my slightest doubts about the clause will be immediately withdrawn. If, on the other hand, it is intended that a claim under the clause should be irrevocable, I should like to draw my right hon. and learned Friend's attention to the possibility of bolstering the relieving provision by introducing what is known in the Department of the Environment as a cost floor. As a result, the valuation arrived at after a claim under subsection (5) could be no less than the actual cost of the asset. In that way, my right hon. and learned Friend would ensure that the clause achieved what I understood it originally set out to do, which was to provide a measure of tax relief where it was needed rather than an arbitrary tax charge in certain cases.
    Mr. Austin Mitchell: I am not quite following the point made by the hon. Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern). It seemed like a piece of special pleading. I smelt a Rees about half way through his speech.
    If the hon. Gentleman was saying that the backdating to March 1982 does not apply unless there is a claim so capital gains is charged on the whole increase in value since the date that the asset was purchased after 1965—in other words, the consequences of the two great inflations, that of Labour and that of the Conservatives—it seems a little mysterious. Perhaps the Chief Secretary will explain when he winds up. Does it mean that the taxpayer has to claim that the gain measured is only since March 1982 for it to be the operative gain? if not, is he then assessed on the whole gain accruing since the date of purchase?
    Mr. Stern: If the hon. Gentleman reads the clause, particularly subsection (4), he will find that the indexation allowance dealt with under the clause is indexation of a valuation at March 1982. Subsection (5) brings in valuation at March 1982 whereas the existing law provides for indexation on original cost.
    Mr. Mitchell: Surely that means a Domesday assessment of what valuations were at 1982. I was making the point simply to show the difficulties under which some of us in the Opposition, particularly myself, labour when dealing with such a measure. For me, it is extremely complex and difficult to follow. That is why the Government have been able to get away with so much. Such a change in the legislation brings about quiet, back-pocket giveaways. It is difficult for the non-accountant and

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    non-specialist tax person to understand it. Conservative Members are away making the money while the Government slip money into people's back pocket, with the capital gains that will be sanctioned under the measure. Mum's the word. I suppose that the message is, "Mother sent the money." In the meantime the rest of the country is not clear about what is going on. It is another of those back-door giveaways carried through under the guise of complex legislation, with no warning to the country as to exactly what is going on. That is why I have worn trousers of this bright colour today, to express my opinion of the legislation and the basic principle behind it—it stinks.
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    Clause 64 takes more of the teeth out of capital gains tax. In a sense, it might be a measure of the Government's political menopause, a confession that the fight against inflation is not over, but certainly lost. If the Government are to index gains, they are admitting that inflation is about to accelerate, as most of the figures seem to show. No more can they give us the stern imperative, "Don't worry about the taxation of inflationary gains because we are bringing down inflation, thanks to the brilliant success that we have had." It has been a success in ruining the economy. That struggle has now failed. Our inflation rate is still higher than that of our industrial competitors, certainly higher than the rate in countries with which we are competing most directly. Our unit costs are going up more rapidly, and the Government are seeking to cushion the effects of that failure for their supporters by the change in capital gains tax. The Prime Minister is obsessed with fighting inflation and with the value of sound money. She wants it sound because she has more of it than most other people.
    The indexation provisions cost about £10 million and the giveaway costs £155 million. Those are substantial sums, given to a section of the population that has no claim to that money and does not deserve it. It could be used for other more important and, from the point of view of economic development, more useful purposes.
    On whose behalf is the measure being carried through? An interesting example is given by The Economist on 23 March 1985. Joe Bloggs bought a second home in 1975—presumably in Wales, so that he could keep warm in the winter. It cost £30,000. He sold the house in 1985 for £100,000, realising a gain of £70,000. Supposing that retail prices have trebled since 1975, and have risen by 15 per cent. from March 1982 alone, before the Budget the man would have subtracted for inflation only £4,500, which is 15 per cent. of £30,000, bringing his taxable gain to £65,500. Supposing his house was worth £80,000 in 1982, he would subtract £12,000, reducing his taxable gain to £58,000. If he had no other capital gains to eat up his allowance, now increased to £5,900, he would pay £15,630 in capital gains tax, which is £2,250 less than under the old system, and substantially less than it would have been under our system. Inflationary gains should be taxed.
    That is an example of a person with a substantial profit on the sale of his second home. One might also make a substantial profit on the sale of shares. Such people benefit by the measure. It is an interesting reflection of the attitudes and perceptions of the Government. They are deaf to the pleas of the sections of society who have been
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    hardest hit by the unemployment and depression that the Government have generated. They are deaf to the pleas of the disabled and the charities. They are deaf to the pleas of the unemployed and the pensioners. However, they are ever alive and alert to the pleas of the small section of people who benefit massively from such measures.
    The Chancellor talks about capital gains tax now being "on a sustainable basis". He means "on a declining basis". A chart in the capital gains tax revenue forecast by the Institute of Fiscal Studies shows, on the basis of the measure, even more than on the basis of the 1982 measure, a substantial and steady falling away in the revenue from capital gains tax. Even on 1984–85 prices, there will be a substantial and steady falling away in capital gains tax revenue after this year. By the 1990s, it will be down from the present levels to about £600 million. By the turn of the century it will be down to £400 million at 1985 prices.
    The Government are literally taking the teeth out of the capital gains tax by this clause, which is why we should oppose it. It is a particularly tawdry part of a tawdry Budget. Perhaps the Chief Secretary can tell us the scale of wealth of those who will benefit from this measure, and what effect it will have on incentives. The Government are constantly telling us about incentives, but this is a gift to those who have, and has nothing to do with incentives for business or for those who put money at risk for the growth of the economy. It is a giveaway to people with substantial sums of money, second homes and shareholdings. Will the Chief Secretary give us examples of the people who will benefit from this measure and explain what benefit that will bring to the economy and to incentives generally?
    This Budget is only a pathetic half-measure, but the fact that it is cautious and restrained does not mean to say that the giving has stopped. It goes on, but at a lower level and to a narrower class and a narrower section of society—the giving slows down. What does it have to do with improving the real wealth and the dynamic strength of the British economy and bringing jobs to our people? It is shovelling money into the pockets of the well-off.
    Mr. John Watts: I understand the wish of the hon. Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald) to introduce teachers' and nurses' pay into the debate on capital gains tax, but the relevance and the logic, if there were any, of the argument were lost. It is a misconception that pay increases at or above the level of inflation provide any long-term protection against the effects of inflation. Experience suggests that such a process has the effect of stoking up inflation to the detriment of all, but particularly to the detriment of those on fixed incomes.
    Seeking to ensure that capital gains tax is levied only on real gains and not on inflationary gains, which erode the underlying value of chargeable assets, has no such inflationary effect. Therefore, I welcome the measures in clause 64 to extend relief against taxation on inflationary gains. The Labour party would like to see a tax that should be described not as capital gains tax but rather as inflationary gains tax. With its appalling record in government of high inflation and its desire to impose ever higher capital taxation, one can see the attractions of the two. If a Labour Government could stoke up inflation and then heavily tax capital on those inflationary gains, they would have a strong source of revenue but not a moral one.
    Like my hon. Friends the Members for Tatton (Mr. Hamilton) and for Kensington (Sir B. Rhys Williams) I am sorry that it was not possible this year to go further in

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    providing fuller indexation relief against inflationary gains for capital gains tax purposes. However, I recognise the need to make choices in the Budget judgment about how the limited resources available for tax relief should be deployed. I have made it clear on previous occasions that I believe that the choice of concentration on national insurance contributions and over-indexation of income tax thresholds were the right priorities this year.
    However, I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chief Secretary will not close his mind to the possibility of extending the indexation allowance in later years. It could be done on a creeping basis by moving back to 1981 then 1980 and so on. If he cannot be persuaded on that, it could be done on a time exemption from capital gains tax, which would provide a more simple basis for the tax, and one that would not be too inequitable.
    Mr. Mark Fisher: The title of this clause sounds modest—"modification of indexation allowances". That sounds an innocent proposal, but having listened carefully to the admirable and lucid exposition of what it implies from my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald), I begin to understand that this is not the simple measure implied by its title.
    The principle of inflation-proofing or indexation is not anathema to Labour Members. We are in favour of it when there is obvious cause and justification, for instance in indexation of benefits. There is not a philosophical divide but a pragmatic divide, which is on whether this form of indexation will be either effective or desirable, and whom it will affect and profit. This is not similar to the indexation of benefits.
    There is a good case for indexing at times of high inflation, but we are constantly being told by the Government that this is not a time of high inflation and that they have cured inflation, and it seems a strange moment for the Chief Secretary and the Chancellor to introduce such a proposal. There have been higher stages of inflation under the Government, but they choose now to introduce something that would protect investors, perhaps with some justification, from the ravages of high inflation. However, this is being done at a time when, although inflation is rising again, it is rising from a fairly modest base at a fairly slow rate. It remains to be seen whether that will continue.
    Mr. John Maples: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has conceded in principle the idea of indexation. He has said that now inflation is low, the proposals are not necessary, and somebody who had bought an asset after inflation fell will benefit little from the indexation proposal. However, a good many people purchased their assets in the 1970s and have had a considerable amount of inflationary gain that would be taxed as a capital gain. Protection is still needed for them.
    Mr. Fisher: It is strange to do this now, when the Government could have made a more effective and urgent case for it at other times. I take the point that we are including in this measure assets that reflect back to a period of a lower base.
    The Committee should be concerned with the financial effect of clause 64. My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock quoted from the Investors Chronicle, and made it clear that some individuals—we should remember that these are well-off individuals, whose gains will be well over £5,000 in any year—may be paying less tax. Will
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    the Chief Secretary confirm that this is the case? Is it true that the typical investor who makes gains of £6,000 a year on his investment income will be paying less tax? The Committee would benefit from clarification of those points, or confirmation.
    Will the Chief Secretary confirm that the yield for the Treasury will fall, and will he specify what the fall in revenue yield resulting from this provision will be? Will it be more or less expensive to administer this? Hon. Members on both sides of the House recognise that capital gains tax is an expensive tax to collect. I suspect that the fairly long and technical provisions of the Bill will make it a great deal more expensive. Will the Chief Secretary include in the net gain, to the Revenue—or loss as I fear it will be—the figures for increased administration costs, if there are going to be some?
    The hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Hamilton) and others have said that this measure could have some effect on the incentive to invest and to take risks on the stock market. We have constantly urged the Government to take more steps to encourage greater investment in the future of this country in both tangible and intangible forms, so the desire for greater investment is common to both sides. What we want, however, is more investment in good projects. We want good and intelligent investment. By indexing losses and allowing marginal gains to be turned into losses, this measure will effectively reward unfortunate and ill-judged investment. Is that really the intention? Will the Chief Secretary explain why those provisions are included in the clause? Both sides wish to encourage good investment, but we do not wish to encourage poor or faulty investment.
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    I hope that the Chief Secretary will also address himself to the fact that only very wealthy, large-scale investors will benefit from the measure. The Government are always telling us how much they wish to encourage small investors through the sale of British Telecom and the proposed sale of British Gas. If the Chief Secretary is honest, however, he will confirm that this clause is utterly irrelevant to any widening of the base of individual investment in companies in this country and will benefit only the well off who already invest in shares. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will not try to argue that this is an incentive for new investors. Anyone in a position to benefit from it—that is, anyone making more than £5,000 per year in capital gains—is almost bound to be investing in the equity market already, so I hope that the Government will not try to imply that this is all part of their move to widen individual share portfolios.
    The question is whether the provision will be effective even as an encouragement to those who are extremely well off and already invest. Recent history shows that in the past 10 years private investors have to a large extent failed the country in terms of investment in United Kingdom shares. In replying to the first amendment, the Chief Secretary referred to the substantial investment in United Kingdom land in the early 1970s, which drove up land values for both agricultural and building land. I suspect, however, although I do not have figures to prove it, that the individual investor has not done well by this country in terms of investment in manufacturing industry and the Financial Times index generally. Indeed, I suspect that a

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    considerable proportion of the £40 billion capital outflow from this country has been the result of investments by very wealthy individuals.
    I hope that the Chief Secretary will give figures to show the significance of individual investors in our equity market, as I suspect that the percentage of the equity market taken up by individual shareholders is very low indeed. Perhaps the right hon. and learned Gentleman will also tell us how many individual investors will benefit from the clause.
    The hon. Member for Tatton referred to the encouragement that the clause would give to greater mobility of investment. I hope that the Chief Secretary will comment on that. I do not know a great deal about the stock market, but I should have thought that, above all, companies seek stability of investment. Those which have performed very well in the past 10 to 15 years seem at a cursory glance to be those with a stable, steady investment base—Marks and Spencer, for example—because they know what their level of investment and security has been, rather than those which have been the subject of wild speculation and have gone up and down. Perhaps hon. Members who are more expert in these matters will confirm that mobility of investment and frequent switching of investment does not benefit British industry. If the clause is designed to encourage that, as the hon. Member for Tatton suggested, is it really a good thing?
    I am very confused about why the Government want this change at all. Will the Chief Secretary tell the Committee how effective the present tax situation is? Does he have figures showing capital gains tax as a percentage of all capital gains made in any one financial year? I suspect that the effective rate of tax as a proportion of capital gains is very low. I believe, as I am sure do Conservative Members and tax lawyers throughout the country who are experts on these matters, that the complexities of the tax make it relatively simple to avoid even without these indexation provisions. If the Chief Secretary has figures for the effective rate of capital gains tax, the Committee would be very interested to know them.
    If capital gains tax is effective—I fear that it is not—why should the Government seek to change it? If it is ineffective but the Chief Secretary believes that there is validity in it, surely he should tighten and not loosen the tax. The Government are moving in entirely the wrong direction. The clause is not the moderately worded measure that it appears to be from the title in the margin of the Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) has said, it is an example of the Government being extremely sensitive to the supplications and vested interests of those who are already very well off. Although we all want to improve performance and investment in manufacturing industry, I doubt whether the Chief Secretary can prove that these changes will benefit manufacturing industry in this country. These changes will merely benefit those investors who are very wealthy already. For those reasons, I am confident that Opposition Members will vote against the proposal.
    Mr. Peter Rees: The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher) made a characteristically speculative intervention. He queried whether this was a modest clause. The most powerful evidence of the
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    modesty of the clause came in the powerful speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for Kensington (Sir B. Rhys Williams) and for Tatton (Mr. Hamilton) and in the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir W. Clark) which they supported. My hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Mr. Watts) also pressed us to go further.
    There is clearly a divide between Members on the scope and importance of the clause and it is perhaps a deep philosophic divide. That was the tenor of many speeches from Opposition Members. They may not attach so much importance to private property or to the operation of the capital market and private investment in the British economy as we do.
    The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central asked how many people would be affected and what would be the width of these changes. The best I can say is that the changes will affect about 120,000 people and institutions within the area of capital gains tax, corporation tax and chargeable gains.
    I was asked about the current yield. If one takes capital gains tax, which is the tax on individuals, and corporation tax on chargeable gains, it is just about the £1 billion mark. The tax likely to be forgone is of the order of £155 million. That, I would have thought, amply demonstrates the modesty of the clause.
    The hon. Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald) advanced a theme which seemed to find favour with several of her hon. Friends. They said that this would benefit a very small, privileged section of our community. That was the thrust of the case made against the clause and the schedule. That is an extraordinary proposition—that equity is to be denied to those who have a certain amount of capital assets and is to be reserved only for those who are not likely to be within the charge to capital gains tax. If there is a case for equity—and I shall demonstrate that there is—it applies just as surely to those who have capital assets as to those who do not. We can debate whether there should be a tax on capital gains, but I hope that there will be unanimity in the Committee that where the tax goes a little further, and because of the ravages of inflation, particularly in the 1970s, it bites deeply into gains which are largely inflationary—I take account of the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington—we should, so far as possible, try to eliminate those inflationary gains.
    I have searched the powerful debates in 1965, when long-term capital gains tax was first introduced. I cannot attribute to the Labour members of the then Treasury Bench the intention that it should bite on inflationary gains. I should like to think that what we did in 1982, and what I am commending today, is in harmony with the underlying concept of the tax as it was introduced in 1965.
    From the Opposition's contributions to this debate I am led to suppose that the Labour party has perhaps changed its philosophic approach. We have not heard a great deal about the Opposition's plans for capital taxation, and it would have been helpful had the hon. Member for Thurrock—speaking with all the authority of the Opposition Front Bench—told us what kind of capital taxation system they would have devised had they been in power.
    It is a rather one-sided debate if we are purely defending the ameliorative measures that we are introducing without knowing what is in the Opposition's mind. They have been very frank on the basic philosophy and are saying that

    815
    equity should be reserved for those who are not likely to be within the charge of capital gains tax. They seem to be suggesting that, in relation to capital taxation in the fiscal sector, equity is as dust in the balance.
    Let me give some of the underlying figures to explain why we believe that this modest clause—over-modest to some of my hon. Friends—is long overdue. In the 20 years between 1965, when capital gains tax was first introduced, and 1985, the retail price index has risen by 535 per cent. It is worth pondering that sombre figure because it indicates the extent to which so-called chargeable gains subject to capital gains tax contain a very large inflationary element. In a philosophic or economic sense they do not represent true gains—they are inflationary gains. If one believes in a properly operated capital market and that people should be encouraged to save and invest in this country, this is a problem to which any Government are bound to address themselves.
    5.45 pm
    The hon. Member for Thurrock made a powerful speech and asked many questions with which I shall attempt to deal, but she and her hon. Friends have not faced this essential question. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central should have done so, because he said that the private investor had failed this country. He also made the extraordinary proposition that we should encourage good investments and discourage bad ones. So say all of us, whether we speak from the Treasury Front Bench or as private investors! We all want good investments.
    Does the hon. Gentleman take this a stage further and argue that we should deny loss relief to those who have made unfortunate investments? Of course we all want good investments in both a private and public capacity, but the hon. Gentleman must recognise—I am sure that he has devoted his keen intellect to this problem—that there is a risk dimension to investment.
    After all, our great economic institutions often started as small risky enterprises. Had the Opposition's philosophy prevailed—thank heaven it did not—there would not have been very much investment to nourish those great institutions. There may be an opportunity in the Committee to hear from the Opposition how we should encourage good investment and identify it. When the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central has told me, I shall no doubt profit from his advice and will be able to see how I can translate his views into practical legislative form.
    While recognising the imperfections and weaknesses of our judgment in this area, we think it is fair to cream off a modest amount of real gains for the state and to afford relief for real losses. That is the underlying philosophy behind the clause. I have given the expense, but that is a fair price to pay to try to reduce the charge to what I believe was the Labour party's real intention when it introduced capital gains tax in 1965. It could, dare I say it, have thought a little bit more about the detail. On some other occasion we shall no doubt be privileged to hear what the Opposition's long-term plans are for the future. We want to know how far they have advanced beyond 1965.
    The hon. Member for Thurrock and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central asked about administrative costs. That is a pertinent question. The hon. Lady gave a figure of 460 by 1989, whereas I would suggest 455—but what is five between both sides of the Committee? This may seem an increase in the administrative burden to
    816
    Somerset house. The Economic Secretary will shortly commend the abolition of development land tax, and there is a point which may just change the hon. Lady's mind on whether to press abolition of DLT to a Division. That will release about 250 people expert in the valuation of land and buildings who will be available to take on that role in relation to capital gains tax.
    Mr. Fisher: Will the Chief Secretary confirm that this is already a very expensive tax to collect and administer? Is it really wise to introduce changes to that tax which make it still more expensive to administer? Notwithstanding the fact that savings will be made elsewhere in the Finance Bill and that 200 staff will be released to deal with this, the Minister seems to be putting additional expense on a tax which I am sure he will concede is one of the most expensive that the Treasury collects.
    Mr. Rees: Perhaps the most expensive is development land tax, but the Economic Secretary will give the full figures in a moment. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. This is not a very cost-effective tax, particularly when one takes into account the compliance cost of the individual taxpayer. The Committee should always bear that dimension of our fiscal system in mind, and should ask whether we are placing an unfair burden on individual taxpayers. As the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central will know, we do not allow tax relief for professional advice. The Government must always reflect whether this is over-complex and upon the administrative burdens that we are placing on the Inland Revenue. As Chief Secretary, I am deeply conscious of that point. I am charged with overseeing the costs of running the Government, if I may put it that way. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central is absolutely right. We have to be sensitive about compliance costs as they affect the individual taxpayer.
    I should like to pretend that this will result in massive simplification. However, when I contemplate schedule 16 I do not put that forward as the paramount reason. The real conclusion to which the hon. Gentleman's shrewd questions drive me is that possibly capital gains tax ought to be abolished altogether. I do not know whether he wishes to impel me in that direction if he is serious about simplification, the reduction of the administrative burden and compliance costs. I have probably taken the hon. Gentleman's arguments a little further than he intended. Nevertheless, he may care to ponder that point.
    The hon. Members for Stoke-on-Trent, Central, for Thurrock and perhaps for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) asked about the small taxpayer. The Committee recognises that the Government have increased the threshold to £5,900, which will take the small investor out of capital gains tax liability. If a beneficent Conservative Government continue to preside for some time over the economy it is possible that the small taxpayer will not be brought back within liability to capital gains tax. To return, however, to the philosophical point, I hope I carry my right hon. and hon. Friends with me when I say that I believe that the large investor is just as entitled to equity as is the small investor.
    Mr. Fisher: Equity is what he has already got.
    Mr. Rees: This is a play on words. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's wit. He knows that he is dragging a

    817
    rather malodorous red herring across my track. The hon. Member for Thurrock asked me a shrewd and complicated question about an investment in Black and company. It is not for me to advise the hon. Lady on her investments. Professional advisers formerly went away and reflected upon Finance Bills after they had become law in order to advise their clients. Now, it seems, they are to obtain free advice from the Opposition Front Bench. We live in stirring times. This will enliven our debates in Committee. If I understood the full complexity of the hon. Lady's bed-and-breakfasting scheme, which would continue for a period of five years, the tax result would be the same. However, if the hon. Lady chooses to bed and breakfast year after year she will get her relief or pay her charge a little earlier. When I have read the full report of this debate in Hansard I may find that I have not fully appreciated the subtlety of her scheme, in which case I shall write to her and make my reply public. I should not wish the outside world to be misled either by my advice or by hers.
    Since we are dealing with technical points, may I say that my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern) put forward a very important point about a claim for relief. He was absolutely right to fasten upon this point. We do not wish to saddle the taxpayer with a burden which he may be unable to foresee due to valuation eccentricities. Provided that the assessment has not been finally determined and that revocation does not take place within the period of two years during which a claim can be made, it can be withdrawn.
    As for the hon. Lady's interesting technical points, she raised matters which have been canvassed in both the Financial Times and the Investors Chronicle. The tax is broadly in a sustainable and acceptable form. If, however, imperfections are revealed we shall be ready to look at them if they disadvantage either the taxpayer or Somerset house.
    Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: Is it recognised by the Treasury that there is an imperfection in the tax, in that it still remains a levy purely on an inflationary gain?
    Mr. Rees: As my hon. Friend will recognise, it will not be a levy on future inflationary gains. However, total relief will not be offered for pre-1982 inflationary gains, and that is a matter of profound regret. The full cost of the amendment supported by my hon. Friend would be £550 million. Although the whole of that figure does not represent inflationary gains, a large proportion of it—about three fifths—is represented by such gains. I take my hon. Friend's point, and as I say it is a matter of profound regret.
    To return to the point made by the hon. Lady, the suggestion has been made that the indexation provisions could be used by those seeking to establish a short-term capital gains tax loss on gilts and other debt instruments where counterbalancing gains do not normally arise. If the Government were to conclude that countervailing action was necessary, we should be prepared to introduce amendments at a later stage. I hope I have reassured the hon. Lady that it is no part of our philosophy that anything the Government do should contain imperfections of that kind.
    This has been an interesting debate. It has ranged from points of fine detail to points of high philosophy. I hope that at the end of the day the Committee will be persuaded
    818
    by the equity argument: that this tax should bite on real, not inflationary, gains. Whether a person has £70,000 worth of investments, or more, or less—I pick on that figure only because the hon. Lady chose that figure and I know exactly why she did so—he is entitled to a broad measure of equity from the tax system of this country. The measure will also encourage further savings and investments and a freer working of the capital markets. This must lead to an even greater and better flow of investment into the manufacturing and service industries. On both counts I hope that the Committee will accept the clause and agree that it does justice to a very important case.
    Dr. McDonald: May I deal first with two points of detail before I comment upon the general principle? First, on Black and company, the Chief Secretary has dodged the point and he ought to look at it again. One receives the compound allowance and a greater indexation allowance if one bed and breakfasts every year rather than if one holds for five years without bed and breakfasting. The Chief Secretary ought to examine that example again and introduce amendments to avoid a gain of that kind. As for extra staff and simplification, the class IV contributions would have been reduced from 6·3 per cent. to 5·3 per cent. if the Government were serious about simplification, yet that has not been done. It was made clear by the Financial Secretary in last night's debate on the class IV contributions that 60 extra staff would be required. A figure of over 400 extra staff was given for the administration of capital gains tax.
    The Financial Secretary suggested that this increase would be offset by the transfer of about 250 staff because of the abolition of development land tax. We do not support abolition, but because of the Government's majority presumably this measure will be passed. The result is that the Government will still have extra staff, extra expense and more complicated taxes to administer. Those points have not been fully answered by the Chief Secretary.
    The Chief Secretary accused us of holding the view that equity should be reserved for those who are not likely to face the possibility of paying capital gains tax. That is not our view. We are committed to a fair tax regime for capital and income. The point is that the treatment should be fair between one group and another. We must face the fact that only those who will make a gain of at least £5,900 in any one year are likely to pay capital gains tax. Moreover, additional allowances are available as a result of those measures. That is far more, just like the exemption limit, than many people in Britain receive as their total gross income in any one year. That is why we want equal and fair treatment for all taxpayers, not just that group with whom the Chief Secretary is so much concerned. We are most concerned that those who have suffered most at the hands of the Government—those on average and below average earnings—should be taxed fairly.
    6 pm
    As the Chief Secretary well knows, because he has considered these matters for a number of Budgets now, any Budget that is put before the country and Parliament has a number of priorities. Certain inequities might need to be ironed out in some sections of the tax system. The removal of each of those inequities will have a cost. It is a matter of the Government's priorities. The Opposition's quarrel with the Government's priorities is that they

    819
    constantly choose to redress what they see to be inequities and injustices in the tax system for the better off. That is why we object to clause 64. The Government continually fail to give priority to those on average and below average earnings, who have suffered at the Government's hands.
    At the end of my previous speech I referred to those who benefited last year from the abolition of the investment income surcharge and who will benefit this year from the changes in capital gains tax to the tune of about £500 million. I also referred to the payment of long-term supplementary benefit to the long-term unemployed. In the use of that £500 million, the Government have shown where their priorities lie. It has gone to 120,000 taxpayers who are liable to capital gains tax instead of to the 1·2 million long-term unemployed who are idle through no fault of their own.
    It is not that we think that people who pay capital gains tax should not receive fair treatment. Of course they should. We quarrel with the Government's priorities. They will not treat the poor with fairness, justice, consideration and sympathy. That is why we oppose the clause.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: I rise to intervene only briefly because a part of my annual ritual activities in the House is to speak on this matter. We have never in any way managed to influence the Government by any amendment to capital gains tax or capital transfer tax legislation since 1979, when I was elected to the House. The reason is simple: the Government do not want to know. All they want to do is press on with the substantial tax reductions for the better off in society. Once again, the Minister sits in his seat, as he has done for the past three years, and laughs because he finds these matters most amusing. The Government simply intend to press on making these reductions which everyone knows to be quite immoral.
    Last week, during the county council election campaign I took a chair and put it on the pavement outside a chemist's shop in Maryport in my constituency. I stood on the chair and set out to explain to my electorate exactly what had happened in the Budget. I went through each of the measures and when I got to taxation I spent a few moments commenting on the reduction in capital gains tax. As I began to explain what had happened, I saw increasing expressions of anger on the faces of the people who were standing across the road listening to my speech.
    Suddenly, a motor car came round the corner covered in Tory streamers and a man opened the window, leaned out and told me that I was talking rubbish in addressing my comments to the £150 million allocation to the small group of people in society to whom we have referred today. Suddenly, from the back of the crowd that had gathered around where I was speaking, two eggs appeared. Both of them shot across in front of me and landed on the bonnet and windscreen of the car. The Conservatives protested and drove off.
    The point that I am trying to make is simple. When the public learn from Budget debates such as this where the money is being spent, in so far as it is being spent on subsidising the better off in society, they become increasingly angry. The problem that Labour Members have had over the past six years in trying to get that message out of the House.
    Last year, during my contribution to a debate on the Budget, I addressed myself to the press lobby. I told them not to refer to me because I was irrelevant, but just to the
    820
    issue when they reported what happened in Parliament that day. I told them to refer to the fact that in that Budget statement the Government were handing back £280 million in the form of free tax concessions. As usual, none of that reached people outside the House and nobody knew.
    This year, in the allocation of time for debates in the Chamber on this year's Budget, we have tried, through the normal channels, to ensure that this debate took place during prime time in the House of Commons so as to ensure that people outside learned what was happening. Once again, we must tell them that on this occasion the Government are now spending a further £150 million—money which is being raised on the back of the deprivation of the great majority of people in British society.
    The Minister does not give a damn. He is not interested. He believes that as part of this incentive society, which he is always telling us is at the heart of conservative philosophy, there is a need to interfere with capital taxes in this way. That is a load of tripe. It is a load of old rubbish. We all know that the only thing which motivates business men in this society is the demand for their products. First, the product must be right, and, secondly, a market must exist with a means of distribution into that market. That is the only incentive that a business man needs. He does not need interference in the capital gains tax and capital transfer tax mechanisms to ensure that he has the incentive to go out and start a business. In representing that position to the House once again this year, the Minister completely misunderstands the very people he represents. The right hon. and learned Gentleman might say that I was not here to hear his reply, but I was upstairs in the Public Accounts Committee where we were dealing with another equally absurd area of Government policy—the rate support grant and its allocation to local authorities.
    In every area of financial management, the Government are wrong. They will continue to be wrong because they start from the wrong base. Next year the Government will introduce yet again an indexation measure. "Indexation of losses" is an absurd term. It is another little mechanism introduced by the Government to ensure that those who make are able to cover themselves when they lose. It is a grubby little measure, typical of this Government's Finance Bills.
    I only wish that the public could hear the Chief Secretary. I do not support the televising of Parliament, but I wish that they could see and hear the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I should like the public to be able to respond to the insensitivity which the Minister has repeatedly demonstrated over the years. If the public were able to hear one of our debates on capital gains tax and capital transfer tax, they would understand the Government's real priorities and the Conservatives would never survive another general election.
    Question put:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 225, Noes 154.

    Division No. 201]

    [6.11pm

    AYES

    Adley, Robert

    Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)

    Alexander, Richard

    Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

    Alison, Rt Hon Michael

    Baldry, Tony

    Arnold, Tom

    Batiste, Spencer

    Ashby, David

    Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

    Aspinwall, Jack

    Bellingham, Henry

    Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H.

    Bendall, Vivian

    821

    Best, Keith

    Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk)

    Biffen, Rt Hon John

    Hawksley, Warren

    Blackburn, John

    Hayes, J.

    Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

    Hayhoe, Barney

    Boscawen, Hon Robert

    Hayward, Robert

    Bottomley, Peter

    Heathcoat-Amory, David

    Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

    Hickmet, Richard

    Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n)

    Hicks, Robert

    Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

    Hill, James

    Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

    Holt, Richard

    Brandon-Bravo, Martin

    Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)

    Brinton, Tim

    Howarth, Gerald (Cannock)

    Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes)

    Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford)

    Browne, John

    Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)

    Bruinvels, Peter

    Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

    Buck, Sir Antony

    Jackson, Robert

    Budgen, Nick

    Jessel, Toby

    Bulmer, Esmond

    Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

    Burt, Alistair

    Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

    Butcher, John

    Jones, Robert (W Herts)

    Butterfill, John

    Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

    Carlisle, John (N Luton)

    Kershaw, Sir Anthony

    Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

    Key, Robert

    Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S)

    King, Roger (B'ham N'field)

    Cash, William

    Knight, Gregory (Derby N)

    Channon, Rt Hon Paul

    Knight, Mrs Jill (Edgbaston)

    Chope, Christopher

    Knowles, Michael

    Churchill, W. S.

    Knox, David

    Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

    Latham, Michael

    Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

    Lawrence, Ivan

    Clegg, Sir Walter

    Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

    Cockeram, Eric

    Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

    Colvin, Michael

    Lester, Jim

    Conway, Derek

    Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd)

    Coombs, Simon

    Lilley, Peter

    Cope, John

    Lloyd, Ian (Havant)

    Cormack, Patrick

    Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham)

    Couchman, James

    Lord, Michael

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Lyell, Nicholas

    Critchley, Julian

    Macfarlane, Neil

    Currie, Mrs Edwina

    MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire)

    Dorrell, Stephen

    Maclean, David John

    Dunn, Robert

    Maples, John

    Durant, Tony

    Mather, Carol

    Dykes, Hugh

    Maude, Hon Francis

    Eggar, Tim

    Mellor, David

    Evennett, David

    Merchant, Piers

    Eyre, Sir Reginald

    Meyer, Sir Anthony

    Fallon, Michael

    Miller, Hal (B'grove)

    Farr, Sir John

    Mills, lain (Meriden)

    Favell, Anthony

    Mitchell, David (NW Hants)

    Fenner, Mrs Peggy

    Moore, John

    Fletcher, Alexander

    Neale, Gerrard

    Forman, Nigel

    Neubert, Michael

    Forth, Eric

    Nicholls, Patrick

    Franks, Cecil

    Oppenheim, Phillip

    Fry, Peter

    Osborn, Sir John

    Gale, Roger

    Page, Richard (Herts SW)

    Galley, Roy

    Parris, Matthew

    Gardiner, George (Reigate)

    Pawsey, James

    Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde)

    Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

    Garel-Jones, Tristan

    Portillo, Michael

    Goodhart, Sir Philip

    Powell, William (Corby)

    Goodlad, Alastair

    Powley, John

    Gow, Ian

    Price, Sir David

    Gower, Sir Raymond

    Proctor, K. Harvey

    Greenway, Harry

    Raffan, Keith

    Gregory, Conal

    Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover)

    Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N)

    Rhodes James, Robert

    Ground, Patrick

    Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

    Grylls, Michael

    Ridsdale, Sir Julian

    Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)

    Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)

    Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

    Rossi, Sir Hugh

    Hampson, Dr Keith

    Rost, Peter

    Hanley, Jeremy

    Rowe, Andrew

    Hannam, John

    Ryder, Richard

    Hargreaves, Kenneth

    Sackville, Hon Thomas

    Harris, David

    Sayeed, Jonathan

    Harvey, Robert

    Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

    Haselhurst, Alan

    Shelton, William (Streatham)

    822

    Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

    Twinn, Dr Ian

    Silvester, Fred

    van Straubenzee, Sir W.

    Sims, Roger

    Viggers, Peter

    Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

    Waddington, David

    Soames, Hon Nicholas

    Wakeham, Rt Hon John

    Speller, Tony

    Walden, George

    Spence, John

    Waller, Gary

    Spencer, Derek

    Walters, Dennis

    Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

    Ward, John

    Stanbrook, Ivor

    Wardle, C (Bexhill)

    Steen, Anthony

    Watson, John

    Stern, Michael

    Watts, John

    Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)

    Wells, Bowen (Hertford)

    Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)

    Wheeler, John

    Stewart, Ian (N Hertf'dshire)

    Whitfield, John

    Sumberg, David

    Whitney, Raymond

    Taylor, John (Solihull)

    Wiggin, Jerry

    Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

    Winterton, Mrs Ann

    Temple-Morris, Peter

    Winterton, Nicholas

    Terlezki, Stefan

    Wolfson, Mark

    Thompson, Donald (Calder V)

    Wood, Timothy

    Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)

    Yeo, Tim

    Thorne, Neil (llford S)

    Young, Sir George (Acton)

    Thornton, Malcolm

    Thurnham, Peter

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Townend, John (Bridlington)

    Mr. John Major and

    Trotter, Neville

    Mr. Tim Sainsbury.

    NOES

    Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

    Eastham, Ken

    Alton, David

    Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE)

    Archer, Rt Hon Peter

    Ewing, Harry

    Ashdown, Paddy

    Fatchett, Derek

    Ashton, Joe

    Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

    Atkinson, N. (Tottenham)

    Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)

    Bagier, Gordon A. T.

    Fisher, Mark

    Barnett, Guy

    Foot, Rt Hon Michael

    Barron, Kevin

    Forrester, John

    Beckett, Mrs Margaret

    Foster, Derek

    Beith, A. J.

    Freud, Clement

    Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)

    Garrett, W. E.

    Bermingham, Gerald

    George, Bruce

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

    Blair, Anthony

    Gould, Bryan

    Boothroyd, Miss Betty

    Gourlay, Harry

    Boyes, Roland

    Hamilton, James (M'well N)

    Bray, Dr Jeremy

    Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

    Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N)

    Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

    Bruce, Malcolm

    Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

    Buchan, Norman

    Heffer, Eric S.

    Caborn, Richard

    Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

    Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)

    Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall)

    Campbell-Savours, Dale

    Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

    Canavan, Dennis

    Howells, Geraint

    Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y)

    Hoyle, Douglas

    Carter-Jones, Lewis

    Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

    Clarke, Thomas

    Hughes, Roy (Newport East)

    Clay, Robert

    Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

    Clwyd, Mrs Ann

    Janner, Hon Greville

    Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.)

    John, Brynmor

    Cohen, Harry

    Johnston, Russell

    Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

    Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

    Cook, Frank (Stockton North)

    Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

    Cook, Robin F. (Livingston)

    Kennedy, Charles

    Corbett, Robin

    Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

    Corbyn, Jeremy

    Kirkwood, Archy

    Cowans, Harry

    Lamond, James

    Craigen, J. M.

    Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

    Cunliffe, Lawrence

    Lewis, Terence (Worsley)

    Dalyell, Tan

    Litherland, Robert

    Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)

    Loyden, Edward

    Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l)

    McDonald, Dr Oonagh

    Deakins, Eric

    McKay, Allen (Penistone)

    Dewar, Donald

    McKelvey, William

    Dixon, Donald

    McNamara, Kevin

    Dormand, Jack

    McTaggart, Robert

    Douglas, Dick

    McWilliam, John

    Dubs, Alfred

    Madden, Max

    Duffy, A. E. P.

    Marek, Dr John

    Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

    Maxton, John

    823

    Maynard, Miss Joan

    Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

    Meadowcroft, Michael

    Shore, Rt Hon Peter

    Michie, William

    Skinner, Dennis

    Mikardo, Ian

    Smith, C.(lsl' ton S & F'bury)

    Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

    Snape, Peter

    Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

    Spearing, Nigel

    Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

    Steel, Rt Hon David

    Nellist, David

    Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

    O'Brien, William

    Stott, Roger

    O'Neill, Martin

    Strang, Gavin

    Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

    Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

    Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

    Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)

    Park, George

    Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)

    Parry, Robert

    Tinn, James

    Patchett, Terry

    Torney, Tom

    Pavitt, Laurie

    Wainwright, R.

    Pendry, Tom

    Wallace, James

    Penhaligon, David

    Wareing, Robert

    Pike, Peter

    Wigley, Dafydd

    Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

    Wilson, Gordon

    Prescott, John

    Winnick, David

    Radice, Giles

    Woodall, Alec

    Randall, Stuart

    Wrigglesworth, Ian

    Redmond, M.

    Richardson, Ms Jo

    Tellers for the Noes:

    Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

    Mr. Sean Hughes and

    Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)

    Mr. Frank Haynes.

    Sheerman, Barry

    Question accordingly agreed to.
    Clause 64 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Schedule 16
    INDEXATION
    Question proposed, That this schedule be the Sixteenth schedule to the Bill.
    Mr. Archy Kirkwood: I do not wish to detain the Committee, and will speak briefly about paragraph 19, My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) and I tabled two amendments only yesterday which, understandably, were not selected. I wish to seek advice from Treasury Ministers on the contents of paragraph 19, and do not argue a particular point.
    There is an element of confusion among substantial financial institutions, such as the pension funds, about the meaning of paragraph 19 and it would be helpful to clarify the position. The Inland Revenue press circular said that in relation to holdings paragraph 19
    "provides the general ordering rule that securities shall be identified with those acquired earlier rather than later."
    It than has in brackets the initials FIFO, which I assume mean first in, first out.
    If I understand the paragraph, it sets out for the purposes of capital gains tax the order of identification of assets disposed of. Paragraph 19(2) changes the rules that have applied since 1 April 1982. No doubt the Chief Secretary will confirm my understanding of that.
    Under the 1982 legislation, assets were identified on a last in, first out basis, which ensured that indexation relief was kept to a minimum. The Budget statement provided that indexation relief should be extended, but the Finance Bill goes beyond anything mentioned in the statement—it provides for the introduction of a first in, first out basis of identification.
    Financial institutions have built up their holdings over many years. The new rules entail identification of disposals with the earliest acquisition, so that disposal of part of the holding will give rise to a significantly higher
    824
    gain than would have obtained under existing legislation. In large part that gain will reflect inflation before the introduction of indexation. The practical consequence will be that the institutions will not sell any holdings that have been held for many years simply to avoid the penal taxation that might apply if my understanding of the schedule is correct.
    That would be undesirable. It would inhibit the institutions' freedom to manage their portfolios efficiently. More importantly, it would reduce the tax take to nil. Portfolio managers are not daft and they will freeze their holdings. The intention of the Budget statement was to relieve inflationary gains rather than increase the yield of capital gains tax.
    The amendment that we tabled yesterday sought to establish whether we understood the position correctly. Treasury Ministers should make the position clear so that appropriate adjustments can be made and steps taken by portfolio managers to resolve these questions.
    Mr. Terry Davis: Is the hon. Gentleman trying to reduce the capital gain and therefore reduce the tax, or is he trying to increase the capital gain and therefore increase the tax?
    Mr. Kirkwood: That is a fair question. I am not arguing a case. I followed the debate yesterday——
    Mr. John Maxton: You are sitting on the fence.
    Mr. Kirkwood: No, I am not sitting on the fence. If I am given the opportunity, I want to say that I freely supported the attitude taken by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald) and the Labour party in our previous debate. I agree that we should seek to maximise the amount of money from capital gains tax. I am worried about the position where the changes by default would end up with the tax take being reduced. Portfolio managers will freeze their holdings if the first in, first out principle applies. I hope that I have answered the question as clearly as possible.
    There is confusion about the interpretation of paragraph 19. I am not trying to be clever—mine is a probing speech. Senior portfolio managers, who know far more than I about these provisions, are confused. It would be useful if the Chief Secretary could clarify the position.
    6.30 pm
    Mr. Peter Rees: I had noticed the amendments that the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) had tabled. I appreciate his concern and I shall respond to his remarks as lucidly as I can.
    The hon. Gentleman will recall that between 1965 and 1982 the FIFO rule—first in, first out—applied. After a measure of indexation was introduced in 1982, both the FIFO and LIFO—last in, first out—rules applied. Now we are reverting to the original intention of the legislation, to FIFO, and I shall list the advantages that we see in returning to that.
    We hope that it will leave taxpayers at the earliest opportunity—of course, it is within their control whether it will be so—with one holding of shares and one pool of expenditure. It will therefore be a considerable simplification, and simplification is sought by hon. Members in all parts of the Committee.
    It will no longer be necessary to keep details of shares acquired more than 20 years ago. That should be

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    particularly helpful for those with computer programmes. The effect of the rule on individual taxpayers—I appreciate that the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire was concerned more with institutions—will depend on the price and acquisition date of their holdings. They will have to check on their position in that respect.
    The hon. Gentleman pointed out that people with big, pre-1982, gains might be frozen, as it were, into a particular position. I regret that, but it must be for them to judge. I explained clearly in answer to the first set of amendments to clause 54 moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Hamilton) and when replying to the debate on the last series of amendments that, in our view, the tax is now in a sustainable and acceptable form. That does not, however, rule out minor amendments. It is for people to draw their own conclusions on that.
    I do not believe that the provision will necessarily have the consequences that the hon. Gentleman forecast, but he is right to say that the position should be made absolutely clear. While the language may seem somewhat convoluted—it is a complex subject—I hope that I have explained what the provisions convey. We shall look again at the wording. In the meantime, I hope that I have conveyed the intention of the Government.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: It would not be in order for me to ask questions about amendments that have not been selected. However, if the wording of those amendments were set out in a document other than the Order Paper and were submitted to the Chief Secretary, would the right hon. and learned Gentleman reply that what was proposed would cost or save the Exchequer money?
    Mr. Rees: It is difficult to forecast. It would depend on the judgment of the managers of individual portfolios. It would vary according to the composition of the portfolio, how much of it was pre-1982 and post-1982, what the shares were and whether the managers took the view that eventually something more dramatic might happen to the tax in question.
    I hope that I have conveyed the Government's intention. I hope, too, that the schedule conveys our intention. I promise the Committee to look again at the words of the provision to see whether there is any possible ambiguity. If there is, we shall return with a suitable amendment.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Schedule 16 agreed to.

    Clause 87
    ABOLITION OF DEVELOPMENT LAND TAX AND TAX ON DEVELOPMENT GAINS
    Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. Terry Davis: For three hours, we have been debating provisions which give away £155 million to people with some of the highest incomes in the nation. As we come to clause 87, we debate provisions which give away more money—another £50 million—to people who are very well off.
    We are debating what is called development land tax, which was introduced some years ago as a tax on the
    826
    development value of land. In effect, it is a tax on the increased value of land, usually agricultural land, resulting from planning permission being granted by a local authority.
    I hope that the whole Committee will agree that such an increase is a windfall gain—a gratuitous gain. The land has increased in value as a result of planning permission. That increase has been created by the community, and we oppose the abolition of development land tax because the Labour party believes that part of that increase should be returned to the community.
    The tax was originally introduced by the then Labour Government in 1976. It accompanied the Community Land Act of the previous year. That Act was repealed by the Conservatives on their return to office.
    It can be argued, therefore, that the raison d'etre for development land tax was removed by the abolition of the Community Land Act. However, our case is that the development land tax is justified in its own right. We believe it right that society should insist that part of this windfall gain should be used for the benefit of society and that the money should be recovered through a special tax.
    There have always been exemptions from development land tax. When the tax was introduced by the Labour Government, there was an exemption for local authorities and similar bodies. Charities were also exempt; the exemption in that case applied to land which they already owned on 12 September 1974. That ensured that they would not pay tax if the land was developed after that date. It is interesting to reflect—in view of yesterday's debate in Committee about charities and the extension of VAT to newspaper advertisements—that when Labour Members argued yesterday for an exemption from VAT on those advertisements to be given to charities, the Conservatives resisted our pleas. Conservative Members did not take that attitude in 1976 when development land tax was introduced. They then claimed to be friends of charities and pressed the Labour Government to extend the exemption to charities which acquired land after that date, so enabling them to develop it and make a tax-free development gain. In considering this issue, we are entitled to contrast the words of Conservative spokesmen some years ago on the introduction of development land tax and the dogmatic and doctrinaire attitude—they would describe it as fiscal neutrality—which prevailed in the Government's arguments yesterday.
    There has always been another exemption from development land tax. That applied to a person building a house for his or her own use. The increase in value in that instance, resulting from the granting of planning permission, has always been exempt from the tax.
    Similarly, exemption has always existed for industrialists who develop land for their own use. Under the scheme introduced by the then Labour Government, payment of the tax was deferred until the property developed by the industrialist was eventually sold, if it should ever be sold. No tax arose at the time of development because the Labour Government wished to encourage industrialists to build factories and expand industry.
    The Labour Government gave another exemption. From the beginning, the first £10,000 profit made from the increased value of the land as a result of planning permission was exempt. An individual, company or trust could profit to the tune of £10,000 a year as the result of planning permission being given for land which was to be developed, and was not taxed on this profit.

    827
    That exemption of £10,000—call it a tax allowance—applied from 1976. When the Conservatives came to power in 1979 they increased that exemption to £50,000, and at the same time they reduced the rate of tax from 80 to 60 per cent. Those changes cost the Revenue £10 million in a full year.
    Two years later the Conservatives extended to commercial developments the deferment applying to industrialists. In other words, if a person built an office block in a city, the tax did not apply until the office block was eventually sold by the developer, provided that the developer had been using it for his own purposes. I have not been able to ascertain the cost of that minor change. I accept that it was probably quite small. I mention it only so that we may have a full picture of the way in which the Government have gradually cut the revenue from this tax on windfall gains.
    In 1984, the deferment became an exemption for industrialists and commercial developers. In that year, the Conservatives—fresh from the election victory of the year before—decided that, if a property had not been sold within 12 years, deferment would become exemption, and the developer would not be liable for development land tax. We were told that the change cost the Revenue £4 million. In the same Finance Bill, the Government increased the threshold from £50,000 a year to £75,000 a year, at a cost to the Revenue of another £9 million.
    Finally, this year, the Chancellor announced that he intended to abolish this tax and that the measure would cost £50 million in a full year to the Revenue.
    We have seen a series of changes and slices in this tax. It reminds me very much of the way in which, some years ago, Russian foreign policy was described as "slicing the salami". We are told that the final act of abolition will cost £50 million. The true cost of Conservative policy on development land tax has been at least £73 million in a full year.
    I emphasise that this abolition of development land tax does not mean that the person who benefits from the windfall gain resulting from planning permission will not pay any tax on the gain. Of course, that person will still be liable to pay capital gains tax, which is levied at 30 per cent. The figures that I have cited—£50 million for the cost of abolition and £73 million for the total cost of what the Government have done—are net figures after allowing for the offset effect of capital gains tax.
    It is important to note that more tax will be paid by the small landowner because of the abolition of development land tax. He will have benefited in the past from an exemption of £10,000 under the Labour Government, which was increased progressively to £50,000 and then to £75,000 under the Conservative Government. The person who was exempt from tax will become in the future liable to pay capital gains tax at 30 per cent. because a similar exemption from capital gains tax amounts to only £5,900. The Government are benefiting not only the people who receive windfall gains resulting from planning permission given by local authorities but the people who make the greatest gains. They are not benefiting the people who make only small gains.
    It is important to contrast the effect of the abolition of development land tax on the tax rate, because there will only be a capital gains tax of 30 per cent. on these development gains. I contrast that tax with the taxes that this Government levy on earned income. People pay income tax on their earned income at a rate of 30 per cent.
    828
    increasing to 60 per cent. This year, the rate of corporation tax is 40 per cent. The tax on the windfall gains which have been wholly unearned and undeserved will only be 30 per cent.
    When the Development Land Tax Bill was introduced by the Labour Government, the Conservative party opposed it. Conservative Members were, however, always careful in debates to distance themselves from any suggestion that those unearned profits should not be taxed. Indeed, on Second Reading the spokesman for the Conservative party—he is now a Minister—moved an amendment that accepted
    "that increases of land values resulting from planning decisions should bear a special tax".
    and the Conservative party did not vote against the Second Reading.
    6.45 pm
    In an earlier debate, the Chief Secretary told the Committee that the Economic Secretary would reply to this debate on the Government's behalf. I know that the Economic Secretary took great interest in the introduction of this tax. He told the House during the debate on Development Land Tax Bill that he had some personal experience of increases in development value because of his directorship in a company that had developed a site in London for a hotel with the additional aid of a special grant. He could therefore bring his experience and expertise to the subject—I make no criticism of that—so the Economic Secretary—the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, North (Mr. Stewart)—participated in the Second Reading debate on the Development Land Tax Bill. He told the House that he regretted the fact that there was not a common approach between the Conservative and Labour parties. He accepted that there needed to be a tax on the gains made as a result of planning permission being given. He said:
    "we accept that planning gains should attract some special tax."
    —[Official Report, 15 March 1976; Vol. 907, c. 954, 1035.] I emphasise the words "special tax". Those words were also used by some of the hon. Gentleman's colleagues.
    When the Economic Secretary explains the Government's decision to abolish development land tax, will he explain where the "special tax" is? Where is the special tax which the Conservative spokesman when in Opposition, agreed should be levied on these windfall gains resulting from planning permission?
    During the debate on the Development Land Tax Bill and elsewhere, Conservative spokesmen argued for what they described as an "infrastructure charge" to be paid by developers. Where is the infrastructure charge to be introduced by the Conservative Government on the abolition of development land tax?
    Any fair-minded person reading the debates on the introduction of this tax would have expected a Conservative Government, if they abolished development land tax, to introduce a new tax. Conservatives would regard it as a tax on better lines, but it would nevertheless be a tax on those unearned profits that arise solely as a result of a line drawn on a map by someone in a planning office. In those days, when in opposition, the Conservatives did not dare to contest the need for an additional tax. They only complained about its level and the method by which it would be levied. They said that they thought that a rate of 80 per cent. was too high and argued in the House and in Committee for a rate of 60 per cent. In one sense, it follows that we cannot complain

    829
    about the reduction to 60 per cent. in 1979. Anyone who looked at the debates could have expected a Conservative Government to reduce the rate from 80 per cent. to 60 per cent., but could not have expected the tax to be completely swept away without being replaced. This tax was described repeatedly by Conservative spokesmen in the House and in Committee as a special tax that was entirely justified.
    The Conservative party manifesto in 1983 did not refer to the abolition of development land tax. The Chancellor has boasted of abolishing three taxes. He refers to the abolition of the national insurance surcharge, an abolition that we supported; the abolition of the investment income surcharge, a measure which we strongly opposed; and the abolition of development land tax, which we oppose equally strongly. The abolition of development land tax gives back £50 million in a full year to people who are already well off. It does not fulfil a Conservative party manifesto commitment or election pledge. The Conservative party manifesto in 1983 did not refer to the possibility of the abolition of development land tax. I understand that it was referred to in the guide issued to Conservative candidates in 1983, but they were not encouraged by the Government to expect the abolition of development land tax.
    I have not read the guide but I am told that it contains the statement:
    "The tax remains in place to control the possibility of abuse."
    What will happen about those abuses? The 1983 guide for Conservative candidates admitted that there were some abuses. What else does that sentence in the guide mean? What will be done to control the abuses that two years ago Conservative central office admitted were liable to take place if the tax was abolished?
    The Labour party will oppose the abolition of the tax not just because it gives £50 million to people whose need is far less than that of many others in our society, but because it goes back on everything that the Conservative party said when in opposition.
    Mr. John Heddle: I rise, as is the custom in these matters, to declare an interest as a consultant partner in a firm of chartered surveyors which might in the past have earned fees from acting for clients who were contesting tax claims with the development land tax office in Middlesbrough. In a sense, I am declaring a reverse interest because that firm may lose fees it might otherwise have received had my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer not made that welcome and overdue announcement in his Budget speech.
    I remember when the Government of which the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Davis) was not a member introduced the Community Land Bill in 1975. It was an act of political vindictiveness. At a stroke it froze the supply of land that builders—the largest employers of skilled labour—wanted to enable them to build homes for the first-time buyers over whom that same Government were weeping crocodile tears.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: If that tax was so bad why were those record house building years in the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Heddle: They were not record years for house building in the private sector. They may have been record years for house building in the public sector, but that record did nothing to reduce council house waiting lists.
    I remember the introduction of the Development Land Tax Act 1976 by the Government of which the hon. Member for Hodge Hill was a member. They introduced it because the Community Land Act 1975 was seen patently not to work, to do the reverse of what it was designed to do, and to freeze the supply of land. What happened? The supply of land dried up completely. When bank finance became more readily available, the money fell into the hands of secondary and tertiary banks and property speculators who made profits hand over fist and contract against contract. No foundations were dug. No brick was laid. No house was built, and the level of homelessness increased.
    The supply of land will increase only through the operation of market forces—supply and demand working in partnership—and if this punitive tax, which last year was 8 per cent. higher than corporation tax and which is now well above the level of that tax, is abolished. Land prices will stabilise and the construction industry will feel that it can buy land at realistic prices and offer properties built on that land at prices that people can afford.
    Opposition Members fail to accept that an impost of 60 per cent. has the effect of increasing the cost of land by 60 per cent. It discourages the land owner from bringing that land forward for development. The hon. Member for Hodge Hill said that he looked for a replacement tax to contribute towards infrastructure costs. That tax exists. Capital gains tax will continue to be paid by the private landowner and corporation tax will be paid by the company that sells land. How can he say that a reduction in taxation which will guarantee to increase the supply of land and stimulate the construction industry, and the jobs created thereby, is not a good measure? How can he say that with a corporation tax rate of 35 per cent. there is no replacement taxation? How can he say that a form of taxation whereby development gains cannot be offset against development losses is a good form of taxation? How can he say that a form of taxation that costs the development land tax office in Middlesbrough more to collect than the Exchequer receives is a good form of taxation? It is nonsense.
    I look to the construction industry to respond now to my right hon. Friend's welcome announcement in the Budget speech and to buy land, and for landowners to make land available at realistic prices so that builders can employ the skilled labour that a boost to home ownership will require which is waiting for the jobs. That will benefit young married couples on council waiting lists in my constituency and that of the hon. Member for Hodge Hill who want to get on to the ladder of home ownership. A reduction in the 60 per cent. punitive rate of taxation will release more land at realistic prices.
    Mr. Stuart Randall: I listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Heddle). He plainly represents interests connected with land speculation.
    Mr. Heddle: On a point of order, Mr. McCartney. The hon. Gentleman has made a statement which, with respect

    831
    to him, I believe is a slur. I declared an interest as a consultant in a firm of chartered surveyors, not an interest in the matter to which he referred.
    The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Hugh McCartney): I did not hear any slur.
    Mr. Randall: I shall not discuss the interests of the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire any further, but if the cap fits he should perhaps wear it.
    As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Davis) said, development land tax was introduced by the Labour Government in 1976. It was introduced to offset windfall profits made from the sale or the development of land. Many of us will remember what happened to land prices in the early 1970s. In the south-east of England prices went berserk. There was enormous abuse in the sale and exploitation of land. Ordinary people suffered. For that reason, I oppose the abolition of development land tax.
    7 pm
    As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill pointed out, the profit arises from the land tax at a time when a local authority grants planning permission to a developer of a piece of land or to somebody who wants to sell a piece of land for a particular purpose or use. However, I think that the development land tax legislation introduced by the Labour Government was reasonable. It created exemptions. As a result, organisations such as charities and local authorities which serve community interests were exempt, as were people who built houses for their own use on land that they owned. That to my mind seems perfectly reasonable.
    In the years since the last Labour Government introduced the development land tax, the Conservatives have been chipping away at it. I would like to have been a fly on the wall listening to all the lobbying that must have taken place by property speculators and the like of the various Ministers and Departments, pleading to be given an opportunity to make the kind of profits that they had made hitherto.
    In 1981, the fairly new Conservative Government extended the exemptions to which I have referred to cover commercial organisations.
    Mr. Austin Mitchell: If I may pursue the point that my hon. Friend made about lobbying and arm twisting, things are done in a far more genteel fashion in the Conservative party than they are in the Labour party. It is in fact not arm twisting or anything similarly painful, but the dangling of prospects. I suggest to my hon. Friend that, as part of the inquiry into the processes that went on behind closed doors, he should ask how many property companies made substantial donations to the Conservative party.
    Mr. Randall: I am grateful to my hon. Friend because in fact that was implicit in my comments. That is why I said that I would like to have been a fly on the wall listening to the various probing questions. I am sure that all the briefs coming into the various ministerial offices would have suggested that, if there could be a relaxation of the tax, there must be good prospects for the Conservative Government. I would not like to say that that actually happened, but there are doubts in my mind as to how all this took place.
    The 1981 change provided an opportunity for the organisations concerned with the development of office
    832
    blocks to have a relaxation of this form of taxation. In my view, we are discussing here large organisations and rich institutions that invest in office blocks and other real estate. The debate is really about whether we should be giving relief to organisations of that kind or helping the ordinary man in the street. That is the general thrust of what is being said. The clause is yet another measure introduced by the Conservative Government that results in money going from the less well off to the ultra-rich and to the very well off. That has been the philosophy of the Government since they were elected in 1979.
    After the change in 1981 came the 1984 change whereby, the Government altered the deferment arrangements of development land tax for industrial and commercial development to complete exemption. Certain conditions had to be met. One was that the property would not be disposed of within a 12-year period. This was another chipping away of the development land tax for the benefit of landowners who, I think one could say, would generally be pretty rich people or institutions.
    The Government seem to be intent on encouraging land speculators and land speculation. When the Labour Government were in power, they introduced the development land tax at 80 per cent., but soon after coming to power in 1979 the Conservative Government relaxed the rate to 60 per cent. The original scheme introduced by the Labour Government in 1976 was reasonable in that the first £10 million of profit—this is on a per annum basis—was exempt from development land tax. That was a reasonable legislative measure and, for the life of me, I cannot understand the reason for this change except, as I said earlier, that I believe that there has been some arm twisting and, as we know, the Government are intent on supporting the very rich at the expense of the less well off. These facts can be substantiated. The people and institutions whom we have been discussing are a tiny minority of very well off people.
    In 1984, the Conservative Government increased the exemption allowance to £75,000. Now they propose to abolish development land tax. I understand that that will cost the Exchequer about £50 million in 1985–86. If the Minister and some of his hon. Friends would only visit my constituency to see for themselves the social conditions, the appalling housing and the deprivation in the area, I feel almost certain that they would understand why I am so bitterly opposed to the priority of the Government in taking £50 million and giving it to property speculators.
    In Committee yesterday, we debated advertisements in newspapers. In a long debate, many hon. Members expressed strong feelings about this form of taxation, which I believe is approximately equivalent to the amount of revenue that would be lost by the complete removal of the development land tax. In the debate, hon. Members said that many ordinary people wish to insert advertisements in newspapers at the time of a family bereavement or on the occasion of a birth or silver wedding. These advertisements are important to many people. As a result of the Government's measure, a tax of 15 per cent. will be imposed. This is just one example of the Government's priorities. They are giving £50 million to landowners and speculators and adding to the cost of advertisements in local newspapers to the detriment of ordinary people.
    Many changes have taken place since 1979. Hon. Members who took part in last year's debates on the Finance Bill will realise the insidious way in which the

    833
    Government have introduced these taxation changes. We heard then of tax relief for stud farm owners, and a form of tax relief for company directors whose children are educated at their companies' expense. The most galling thing is that, when Parliament was debating that legislation last year in the early hours of the morning, the Press Gallery was empty. As my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) pointed out, it is galling to realise that the general public are often unaware of the extent to which taxation changes are taking place.
    This is a question of priorities. As someone has said, Socialism is the choice of priorities. That is why we are so bitterly opposed to the clause. Why did the Government not use the money to avoid petrol costing £2 a gallon? That would have helped those who live in rural areas and those who must use their cars to collect their prescriptions. The increase in the cost of petrol is tough on many people. It is right that we should oppose the abolition of development land tax.
    I am delighted that we are debating this matter on the Floor of the House rather than in Committee. I hope that the press will pick the matter up, and that people will realise the extent to which the Government have been taxing the poor and giving money to the rich for almost six years. The net effect is that the rich have become extremely rich and the poor extremely poor. About 18 months ago, "Breadline Britons" reported that nearly 8 million people were living in poverty. The way in which the Government are allowing poverty to continue while at the same time they are feathering the nests of rich property owners and speculators is shameful.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: I had not intended to speak, until the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Heddle) referred to some figures for which he did not produce statistics. I went to the Library to examine the statistics and they make interesting reading. They show that the Government have no case for introducing this concession. There is no need for it. The hon. Gentleman was right that there are more private sector starts than previously. In 1977, the first year for which the tax existed, 134,810 houses were built in the private sector. In 1978 the figure increased to 157,000, and in 1983 it had reached 167,000. There is always a need to build more houses, but these figures show a successful policy, which is based on raising development land tax. The tax paid does not impede growth in the private sector; indeed, it is supporting the private sector house building programme.
    Mr. Heddle: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and ask him to consider the following fact. The properties built in 1977, 1978 and 1979 were built not on land which was bought between 1977 and 1979, but on land bought by builders up to five years ahead of their building programme. Therefore, his statistics are of little relevance. The hon. Gentleman referred to the welcome increase in starts in 1983. The houses were built on land which was subject to a lower rate of development land tax—it had fallen from 80 per cent. to 60 per cent.—which was introduced by my right hon. and learned Friend the then Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget of 1980—not 1979 as the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. Randall) said earlier.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: As that is the hon. Gentleman's response, perhaps he will examine the
    834
    position a little further back to see whether his argument continues to hold water. In 1973, there were 215,000 private sector starts. By 1974, the figure had collapsed to 105,000. It then increased to 149,000 and to 154,000. My point is that the policy has not damaged the growth in private house building. Every suggestion that it has is negated by the figures that I have produced today. When the Minister replies, he must prove to the House that there is a need to remove the tax, to ensure that growth can take place where it has not taken place. He cannot prove that, because the statistics show that growth has taken place.
    I wish to ensure that people outside the House do not misunderstand the figures. Although there has been a growth in private sector housing development, there has been a collapse in the public sector from 132,000 in 1977 to 47,000 in 1983. The figure is even lower this year. That means that this year the total figure of 214,000 for all dwellings is lower than for any year under the Labour Government. We have won the argument in every respect.
    7.15 pm
    The hon. Gentleman said that the benefit from the reduction in tax would be passed on to the consumer, but that does not happen. That is not how the market works. The benefit is not passed on in the free market. What happens is the same as what happens in the enterprise zones. Although there has been a rates subsidy, its effect has made little difference to the market cost to the manufacturer or tenant in taking a site. Rents have merely increased. The market, not the question whether there is a tax, determines the cost of land. We are merely handing over the £50 million or net £20 million to landowners. The whole exercise is a waste of time. If it could be proved that the abolition of DLT could lead to an abundance of new land coming onto the market, there might be an argument for it. However, it will not do that. Abolition of DLT has no influence on the number of private sector starts.
    Mr. John Butterfill: We can show that. It is clear that if the tax is removed, a substantial number of landowners would put their land on the market. That would increase the supply of land on the market, which would, of necessity, reduce prices. In my professional capacity, I have seen that the phasing effect, which takes place to take account of annual exemptions, has meant that many landowners have released their land in parcels in order to take maximum account of the annual exemptions available. That has delayed the flow of land on to the market.
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: I only wish that my memory were better. I recall a time during the past four years—my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) may have served with me on that Finance Bill—when we discussed an amendment which dealt with land banks being held by building companies. It appeared that they had a tax problem because they were holding such large tracts of land. There is no shortage of land available to building companies today. Indeed, some companies say that they are carrying too large a pool of land. They want a demand for homes and an expansion of public sector moneys to ensure a construction programme. Building companies say that they have the land, yet the hon. Gentleman seeks to prove that more land will be forthcoming. It may be that the building companies do not need the land, as it is already available.
    The hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire is a free marketeer and is in the estate agent business, land

    835
    valuation, or whatever. He is in that set and he knows exactly what I mean. He knows that the only determinant of land values is the free market. If we hand over the net £20 million, we will merely give it to people who do not need it. If it could be proved that the provision would reduce the value of housing, we might have to take the clause seriously, but it cannot be proved. When the Minister replies, he must prove that the abolition will lead to more houses being built, and that the consumer will benefit. If he cannot do that, he should withdraw the clause.
    Mr. Austin Mitchell: My hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) should disregard the siren voices from the Conservative party, because arguments along those lines can always be produced to defend a concession to a vested interest, which this clause essentially is. The fact that they cannot produce better arguments than the ones that we have heard during this debate is a testimony to how tawdry the concession is.
    The argument that the concession will increase housing starts is completely fallacious. That depends on interest rates, and the Government's prolonged policy of high interest rates has crucified not only house buyers and those who have mortgages, but house builders. It inhibits them from buying land and building the land banks that they need to ensure continuity. Interest rates will be the real determinant of housing starts, not this concession, which will go straight into the pockets of the developers and the property companies. It will certainly not come back to the consumer.
    I cannot emphasise enough what is happening here. The Opposition Front-Bench spokesmen were right to pick this clause on development land tax, and the earlier clause on capital gains tax, for debate on the Floor of the House. There is no need for either concession.
    This concession will do nothing to stimulate the economy or the housing market beyond what is determined by interest rates. It will do nothing for economic efficiency, jobs or growth. It is the straightforward concession of a substantial sum of money to the Government's fat friends——
    Mr. Geoffrey Dickens rose——
    Mr. Mitchell: I give way to one of the Government's fattest friends.
    Mr. Dickens: Perhaps I am one of the Government's fattest friends. I am an engineer, not a property developer or a financier. The hon. Gentleman said that there would be no advantage to the consumer. Is it not right that many British institutions hold many acres of land? The trade unions and other bodies invest their pension funds in those institutions. Therefore, if there is a tax advantage to those institutions in the sale or development of their land, the money will accelerate and enhance the pension funds in which trade unions and many other disadvantaged bodies are pleased to place their money. Would they not obtain a better yield? The hon. Gentleman's argument is incorrect.
    Mr. Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman's intervention takes us completely away from the point, but it demonstrates the paucity of argument for this measure. His was an especially far-fetched argument. If he is advocating that the pension funds should be allowed to buy and sell
    836
    land more easily so that their money will be, not far-fetched but far-carried and invested overseas—following the huge outflow of investment from Britain—that will stimulate the free market, but it will be of no great advantage to British citizens or to the creation of jobs.
    This measure is a straight giveaway of the sort that is normally trundled through Committee at dead of night. My hon. Friends were right to ask that it be debated in the early evening. Regrettably, the press, with their usual inattention to such sordid manoeuvrings, are not here to highlight it. But what is happening deserves to be screamed from the rooftops, because houses will continue to be built, provided that interest rates allow it. This concession to the Government's fat friends is justified by double talk and by devious and largely inaccurate arguments.
    The day after the measure was announced by the Chancellor in his Budget statement, The Times carried an article stating that the property industry welcomed it. But the industry did not say, "Thank you, Chancellor, for £50 million," which is what it is about. It said that the tax would consume much of its time. The £50 million would appear to be purely incidental. It is a straightforward benefit about which nothing is said.
    Development land tax, which was rightly introduced by the Labour Government in 1976, is part of a long tradition of attempts, some more successful than others, to ensure that the return on the increased value of land, which comes through no effort on the part of the owner, accrues to the agency which causes that increase in value—the community. Is it not right, in principle, that that unearned windfall should accrue to the community? There are always practical difficulties in that, but they can be solved. The principle of development land tax is so glaringly right as to be incontrovertible.
    The tradition goes back to the unearned increment of land tax which Lloyd George introduced in 1909. After the "people's Budget" of that year, Trafalgar square was filled with an enormous crowd singing:
    "The land, the land, 'twas God that gave the land,
    The land, the land, the ground on which we stand.
    Why should we be beggars with the ballot in our hand?
    God gave the land to the people."
    That crowd was led by Winston Churchill. They were celebrating the taxing of the unearned increment of land value, which is part of the development land tax introduced by the Labour Government. It is a long-standing principle that the increase accruing as unearned profit to developers and owners should be taxed for the benefit of the community.
    Mr. Butterfill: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. The 1947 Act removed from landowners the right to do what they wished with their land. They had to obtain permission. Before 1947, a man could do what he wished with his land. The hon. Gentleman is suggesting that the concession whereby those rights may be given back should then be the subject of taxation. It stands logic entirely on its head.
    Mr. Mitchell: That was not my argument. I was saying that it is right to take back some element of the unearned improvement in land values. The principle has been a long-standing part of fiscal legislation and endeavour, dating back to the "people's Budget" of 1909.
    One can argue about planning permission and how it should be pursued, but one cannot argue that people who

    837
    have done nothing to increase the value of land should benefit from that increase, as they would if development land tax was abolished. It is an unearned profit, and it is right to tax it.
    It has been shown that the income can be taxed without inhibiting development. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Davis) produced telling figures in support of that argument. Despite all that the Government have done to increase interest rates, depress the building industry and drive builders into bankruptcy, there is still development, except in public sector housing. It is not true to say that the tax has inhibited development. The increase in value should be taxed because it is a socially produced increase from which the full benefit should not accrue to the landowner. It should accrue to the community.
    Labour introduced development land tax, which accompanied the Community Land Act. It was intended as a step towards public ownership of all development land. That would seem to be right in principle. One can argue about the way in which it is operated and about whether one needs to go to the full 100 per cent., but the tax is an attempt to see land values accrue to the community, which in itself, is right. The idea was that there should be public ownership and that the profits should accrue to the community. That was the essence of the argument. It was a tax on the windfall profit.
    7.30 pm
    The exemptions allowed under the Labour Government were adequate to ensure that the system functioned efficiently and fairly. Local authorities, charities and anyone building a house for his own use have always been exempt. If an industrialist developed land for his own use, the tax was deferred until the property was sold, under Labour's scheme. Labour exempted the first £50,000 profit per year by any developer. Therefore, there were sufficient exemptions and allowances to make it a fair system and to embody the principle that I have emphasised is important.
    I am glad to see the Liberals here in their serried ranks to back us, as they did in 1909, with the people's Budget. However, their Social Democratic party allies are not here—they were not here yesterday either. The new members of the alliance are not as strong in the defence of Lloyd George's tradition as we are in the rest of the House.
    The principle is right and fair and should be maintained. What has been done by the Government is a straightforward, vicious, nasty, sordid and tawdry concession to their fat friends.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Ian Stewart): I am glad to respond to this debate on development land tax, particularly because, as the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr. Davis) reminded us, I was involved in the legislation when it was originally introduced in 1976.
    The hon. Member for Hodge Hill rightly said that the measure does not represent the removal of all tax from transactions which, up to now, have been subject to development land tax. The amount concerned will fall to be taxed not only under income tax but under capital gains tax, or corporation tax for companies. However, I must correct one thing that he said. I understood him to say that
    838
    a small landowner would be worse off because tax would be payable if there were no DLT whereas, had there been DLT, the amount would have fallen within the exempt amount. That is not correct. The exempt amount may exempt the taxpayer from DLT. However, as with the exempt amount on transactions that give rise to DLT, all the remaining part of any profit or gain is taxable in the ordinary way. Therefore, it will not have the adverse effect that the hon. Gentleman suggested.
    Several hon. Members reminded us that DLT was part of the community land scheme arrangements of the previous Labour Government. Under Labour, there was the Central Land Board in 1947, the Land Commission and the betterment levy in 1967, and the Community Land Act and development land tax in 1976. The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) said that he thought that nationalisation of development land was the direction in which we should go. Not only do I disagree with that in principle as a Conservative, but in practice the consequences of all those proposals have not met the expectations of those who introduced them.
    Development land tax has caused many problems, many foreseen by my hon. Friends and me when we were considering the proposals nine years ago in Committee. A tax at a rate of 80 per cent. rising to 100 per cent., backed with powers for local authorities to acquire all development land, was more in tune with the theoretical ideas of Socialist planning than with the practical realities of the construction industry, in development and in bringing forward land for building. That is the way in which things have turned out.
    I should like to correct another impression that Labour Members give. It is that development land tax is substantially the province of rich landowners and that the windfall gains of which they speak are such a social evil that they should be taxed at penal rates. In fact, less than half of those who pay the tax are individuals. Most of the tax charges are assessed against companies, statutory undertakers, builders and so on. It is because the groups involved in building and development are most subject to the tax that so many problems have been caused.
    I was asked by the hon. Member for Hodge Hill to say why the Government were proposing the abolition of the tax when, nine years ago, in Committee on the Development Land Tax Bill, I and other spokesmen for the Conservative Opposition had accepted that there was a case in principle for the taxation of such gains. The simple answer is that there was a case in principle for the taxation of such gains in the circumstances of the 1970s, with high prospects of inflation and substantial speculative gains at that time. However, not only is there no case for such a tax today because inflation is now much reduced—the inflationary conditions that encouraged speculation no longer apply, and so long as the Government have anything to do with it, they will not return—but there is no case in the foreseeable future for such a tax, which has such an adverse effect on development and construction.
    I was asked to give proof. Of course one cannot prove the future, but nine years ago we gave projections of what was likely to happen under the tax. They have proved far more accurate than the claims that were made by Labour Members at that time. I can quote some opinions to justify our belief. Several estate agents such as Savills, Knight Frank and Rutley and Grant and Partners have said that abolition of DLT will increase the supply of residential building land. They have said that it will have an entirely

    839
    beneficial effect by releasing sites for development, enabling industrial companies to move to more suitable sites, and helping housebuilders. The House Builders Federation believes that it will encourage landowners to sell land for development. The Incorporated Society of Valuers and Auctioneers says that it will
    "encourage the building industry and employment".
    Those comments are on the positive side. The strongest case for the abolition of DLT is the inhibiting effect that it has had on commercial activity and on building and development in recent years. It is expensive and difficult to administer, not only for the Inland Revenue but for the taxpayer. It has provided a significant impediment to the functioning of the market, and has undoubtedly damaged industry and commerce——
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: How?
    Mr. Stewart: I shall elaborate on what I have said because I am invited to do so by the hon. Gentleman.
    I give one of many examples which have been brought to the attention of Ministers by assiduous Members. For example, a major firm in west London employing hundreds of workers and exporting the vast bulk of its products to overseas markets felt unable to move out of its present outmoded premises and into a larger factory because of the threat of development land tax. It did not have the resources to finance the cost of replacement premises. In another case, an export-oriented firm in the Midlands was faced with a choice of staying put or moving to a better site with a reduced work force because of development land tax liability on the disposal of its existing site. These are the restrictions to expansion and limitations to employment that are being removed by the abolition of development land tax.
    Lest Labour Members should repeat their charge that this is merely Conservative rhetoric, I point out that representations along these lines have come——
    Mr. Campbell-Savours: The Minister's examples have all been on commercial properties. Can we have an example on residential properties, because the Bill covers that?
    Mr. Stewart: I have given the Committee a number of comments from those who are more expert than I am to judge the impact on building land. Examples could be produced from many constituencies where shortages of development land have made difficulties for house building. This tax goes far wider than house building because it affects commerce and industry. Many hon. Members have been pointing out in the past few years the difficulties that development land tax has created for them. The fact that such examples are put to Ministers by Labour Members should show that the tax that the Labour party introduced is doing the damage that we had the foresight to see at that time.
    This is an inefficient tax because it is extremely complicated and at a punitive rate. The cost of collecting this tax is higher than that of any other tax on the statute book. It is more than three times as expensive as capital gains tax to collect, more than twice as expensive as capital transfer tax and seven times as expensive as stamp duty. That is the gross cost against the gross yield. The gross yield of development land tax is, in part, offset against other taxes that would be payable in the normal
    840
    course of events if development land tax did not apply. The cost against yield tends to be significantly higher than 7 per cent.
    Over the nine years in which it has been in operation, the gross yield before the cost of collection and the offset against other taxes that would have been paid has only been, on average, about £40 million a year. The latest year for which we have figures, two years ago, shows that the cost of collecting it gross is £1 to every £13 of tax, so it is extremely inefficient and expensive for the Revenue to administer the tax.
    The tax is also burdensome to the taxpayer. One case has come to the notice of the Inland Revenue recently in which the taxpayer, assessed for liability of £1,800, could demonstrate that the incidental costs of dealing with that transaction to the taxpayer were £10,000—more than five times the amount of the cost itself.
    Mr. Heddle: We have heard the exorbitant incremental cost of collection as against the net tax yield, after taking into account taxes that would otherwise be paid, but that assumes that that tax is paid in one year. Does my hon. Friend agree that that tax is phased over an eight-year period, so the net benefit to the Revenue is even less than this figure suggests?
    7.45 pm
    Mr. Stewart: Payment is phased over a 10-year period as a result of a Conservative amendment that somewhat alleviated the burden of the tax. However, despite the improvements that we have made since we have been in office, such as the increase in threshold and the improvement in instalments, there are inherent problems in a tax where so much of the liability is deferred. The number of cases in which tax on deferred liability has been collected is still in single figures, although there are probably several hundred, if not thousands, of cases where this is being stored up, and continuing to produce problems for the future. Only one in 10 of the inquiries made about the potential charges of development land tax by the Inland Revenue results in a charge to tax.
    However, a great deal of Revenue staff and taxpayers' time is taken up in dealing with the necessary inquiries and investigations. Not surprisingly, this tax has acted as a drag on the market, has discouraged development and caused congestion in the building and property markets.
    The circumstances of inflation, speculation in the 1970s and so on have changed the markets. However, there is another important change that has come about recently and made it untenable to continue with this tax. That is the change in the rate of corporation tax. While it was at a rate of 52 per cent. against 60 per cent. for development land tax, the latter charge was higher than that of the corporation charge, but not catastrophically so. Various allowances could not be offset against it, so it was a more demanding tax than corporation tax.
    When corporation tax is reduced to 35 per cent., as it will be next year, the gap between the rate of corporation tax and the rate of development land tax will be so wide that there will be a significant difference to the taxpayer according to which he is assessed. Therefore, the exact valuation of how much profit or gain should fall on development land tax and how much on corporation tax will be a more significant factor that taxpayers will have to take into account. That will increase the burden both to the taxpayer and the Revenue and to the problems of valuation, adjustment and so on.

    841
    Under current circumstances, all the practical arguments are against keeping this tax on the statute book. It is the most inefficient and expensive tax and it has done increasing damage as years have gone by and more and more cases have become liable, either through deferment of liability or through locking in cases that could otherwise be treated in the normal way in the market. The tax has produced little revenue and done a great deal of harm to development. I am glad that tonight we have the opportunity to remove it for good and all.
    Mr. Terry Davis: The hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Heddle) said that the 1967 Act did not work, and that the Labour Government had therefore introduced development land tax in 1976. The Economic Secretary also had several omissions in his list of previous attempts to tax development gains. Like the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire, he forgot to mention that the 1967 Act, which may or may not have worked, was not the reason for introducing the tax in 1976. The tax that was introduced in 1967 was abolished by the 1970–74 Conservative Government. However, that Government had a change of heart, and this fact was omitted not only by the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire, who could be forgiven for forgetting about it because he was not in the House at the time, but, more significantly, by the Economic Secretary. When he read his list of taxation measures on development land, he forgot to mention that in 1973 the Conservative Government re-introduced a tax on development gains.
    The hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire then used the adjective "vindictive". He thought that the introduction of a tax on development gains was vindictive. Is he then describing the Economic Secretary as having been vindictive in 1976 when he said that there should be a special and additional tax on development gains? All those words were used by the present Economic Secretary and many other Conservatives when development land tax was introduced. Is the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire accusing his right hon. Friend the present Minister for Overseas Development of having been vindictive? We all know that that would be totally out of character.
    Many other Conservative Members also accepted the need for such a tax. I have always observed the convention of not referring to hon. Members unless I have told them that I intend to do so, but I believe that that convention arose due to the possibility of hon. Members being attacked in their absence. As I am not making any attack, I make no apology for referring to words, used by Conservative Members in 1976, with which I fully agree. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen), with whom I rarely agree, said:
    "I accept that it is right that there should be an additional tax upon those values which arise from the granting of planning permission"
    and
    "We accept that there should be some level of taxation at a higher level than the rates for capital gains tax generally".—[Official Report, Standing Committee J, 23 March 1976; c. 15–18.]
    Another Conservative, the hon. Member for Hove (Mr. Sainsbury), said:
    "We accept the need for a special rate of tax on the granting of planning permission. Our argument is not whether there should be a tax but what its rate should be."—[Official Report, Standing Committee J, 23 March 1976; c. 33.]
    842
    There was no reference to inflation or speculation, but a clear reference—not a vindictive reference—to the community's justification for taxing these windfall gains arising from the granting of planning permission, so I think that the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire went a little over the top in his comments today.
    Mr. Dickens: The hon. Gentleman may be surprised to hear that a developer in this country, like so many others, went abroad because of this stupid tax and is now building large housing estates in Canada instead of continuing to provide jobs and homes for the people of this country. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it is not all take for the speculators because many get their fingers severely burnt and suffer great personal financial losses?
    Mr. Davis: It is always difficult to discuss individual cases when they are not identified, but the hon. Gentleman cannot have appreciated the impact of development land tax. It does not apply to developers. It applies to people who own land and sell that land after planning permission has been given. There is a difference between a developer and a landowner. In one of those previous debates the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Latham) referred to the people who would pay the tax as land vendors. There is a great difference between a land vendor and a developer.
    The Economic Secretary has said today that development land tax is justified only if there is inflation or speculation. I regard that as merely an excuse. Conservative Members made no reference to inflation or speculation when they supported the introduction of a special tax on these development gains in 1976.
    The hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire has described the tax as vindictive. My experience of debates on Finance Bills has been that Conservatives always claim that taxes on the rich are vindictive.
    The hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire also said that a tax of 60 per cent. on these unearned, windfall gains increased the price of land. If that is so, why was that rate suggested by Conservative Members in 1976? The Labour Government introduced a rate of 80 per cent. The Conservatives did not argue about the principle of the tax, although they might have done things a little differently and allowed more exemptions, but they urged that the correct rate was exactly the rate that is now being abolished.
    Further, as my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) has pointed out, the price of land and of houses is determined not by the tax but by the market. Contrary to the claims of the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire, development land tax has not been responsible for the increase in house prices.
    The hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Mr. Butterfill) offered a much more sophisticated explanation of the economics of development. He said that, if the tax is removed, landowners will put land on the market, which will reduce the price. But when the rate was reduced from 80 per cent. to 60 per cent. and the exemption was increased from £10,000 per year to £50,000 per year and then to £75,000 per year, no evidence emerged—and the Economic Secretary has produced none today—to suggest that those changes resulted in any extra land coming forward. When the Labour Government introduced the tax at 80 per cent., Conservative Members claimed that if only the rate could be reduced to 60 per

    843
    cent., land would be put on the market. The rate was reduced to 60 per cent. six years ago, but we are still waiting to see all that land being released for development.
    Then the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire says that the supply of land will increase only if there is free operation of market forces. I prefer the words used by the hon Member for Wolverhampton, South-West when he pointed out on a previous occasion that the granting of planning permission was a distortion of the free market. It is disappointing that there has been no contribution on this from the Liberals on this issue today. I understand that they were much more forthcoming some years ago. When John Pardoe represented the constituency of Cornwall, North, he pointed out that there was no such thing as a free market in development land and that the supply was limited by definition to what the planning officials were prepared to draw their pencils round. In other words, the supply is artificial. The supply is created by planning decisions, and the value of the land is created by those planning decisions. It is thus right that a proportion of that value should return to the community.
    If there were any validity in the argument that a change in the fiscal arrangements would release land for building, why did the report on land for housing produced by the Select Committee on the Environment in the Session 1983–84 fail to mention this point? That three-volume report identified a whole list of obstacles to the release of land for housing, but there was not one reference to the effect of development land tax. There is no valid evidence to suggest that the tax is preventing land from becoming available for house building.
    The other argument adduced by the Economic Secretary in his attempt to justify the abolition of development land tax was that the tax was paid not by individuals but by companies. I believe that he is wrong. I have studied the assessments for the calendar year ending 31 December 1983 by status of taxpayer set out in the Inland Revenue statistics for 1984. Those figures show that over a period of four years, disposals of land by individuals and trustees were greater than those made by companies and builders, that the value of the land involved was greater, and that the tax paid by individuals and trustees was more than double that paid by land companies and builders. I think that the Economic Secretary has got his figures wrong. If there is a fault in my research, no doubt he will write to me to explain why his statistics do not match those of the Inland Revenue.
    The Economic Secretary also told us that the tax should be abolished because it is expensive to collect. He informed us that collection cost 7 per cent. of revenue, and he also referred to the calculation—it is the same figure put differently—that it cost £1 for every £13 of revenue. Those figures were valid in 1983. In the Finance Act 1984, this Conservative Government increased exemption from £50,000 to £75,000, and when asked to justify it, they told the Committee that it would remove no less than one third of the transactions from liability to tax—the transactions which produced the least revenue. Therefore, I suggest that the Economic Secretary has got his figures wrong. He referred to the figures for 1983, but the position was changed by the Finance Act 1984. He voted for that provision, whereas the Labour party voted against it. The hon. Gentleman was there, but obviously was not listening to the Chief Secretary.
    844
    8 pm
    The Economic Secretary was most unfair to the Committee when he referred to two companies—which understandably he did not and could not name—which would not move from their factories because they feared the imposition of development land tax. The hon. Gentleman knows that there are exemptions for companies which use premises for their own manufacturing activity, and that if they were in those premises for 12 years or more, they were not liable for tax.
    I do not accuse the Minister of breaking faith as a Treasury Minister in referring to them because he was given the information by his hon. Friends. However, such evidence should be placed before the Committee so that the Opposition can know who these companies are. We need to know much more about those companies and their circumstances before the Minister can reasonably expect the Opposition to accept his argument.
    The hon. Gentleman referred to a list of organisations which welcomed the abolition of DLT. I did not write the names down, but I was left with the thought, "They would, wouldn't they?" He said that they claimed that abolition would lead to more land being made available. We do not believe it. That is an excuse to justify the giveaway, just like the excuse to justify the reduction of tax paid by people on the highest incomes. This Government always say that a reduction in the tax paid by people on the highest incomes will lead to more jobs for the unemployed, but after six years we are still waiting for the evidence.
    Not only Socialists support the idea of taxing unearned gains from the development value of land; as my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) said, this cause has been advocated by Liberals and radicals for years. Past and, I hope, present Liberals believe that this tax should be levied. Only a few years ago, the Conservatives also joined us in a great consensus on this issue, but they have now changed their minds. When the tax was introduced, Conservatives accepted the argument for a special tax on these windfall gains. That was when they were in opposition. Now they are in government, and they are using the opportunity to give away £73 million to wealthy landowners.
    Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill:
    The Committee divided: Ayes 184, Noes 117.

    Division No. 202]

    [8.3pm

    AYES

    Adley, Robert

    Browne, John

    Alexander, Richard

    Bruinvels, Peter

    Arnold, Tom

    Buck, Sir Antony

    Ashby, David

    Budgen, Nick

    Aspinwall, Jack

    Bulmer, Esmond

    Atkins, Robert (South Ribble)

    Butterfill, John

    Atkinson, David (B'm'th E)

    Carlisle, John (N Luton)

    Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

    Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

    Batiste, Spencer

    Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (W'ton S)

    Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

    Cash, William

    Bellingham, Henry

    Channon, Rt Hon Paul

    Bendall, Vivian

    Chope, Christopher

    Best, Keith

    Clegg, Sir Walter

    Biffen, Rt Hon John

    Cockeram, Eric

    Blackburn, John

    Colvin, Michael

    Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

    Conway, Derek

    Boscawen, Hon Robert

    Coombs, Simon

    Bottomley, Peter

    Cope, John

    Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n)

    Couchman, James

    Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)

    Critchley, Julian

    Brandon-Bravo, Martin

    Currie, Mrs Edwina

    Brinton, Tim

    Dickens, Geoffrey

    Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes)

    Dorrell, Stephen

    845

    Dover, Den

    Mather, Carol

    Dunn, Robert

    Maude, Hon Francis

    Evennett, David

    Merchant, Piers

    Eyre, Sir Reginald

    Moore, John

    Fallon, Michael

    Nicholls, Patrick

    Farr, Sir John

    Page, Richard (Herts SW)

    Favell, Anthony

    Parris, Matthew

    Fenner, Mrs Peggy

    Pawsey, James

    Forman, Nigel

    Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

    Fox, Marcus

    Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian

    Franks, Cecil

    Powell, William (Corby)

    Freeman, Roger

    Price, Sir David

    Fry, Peter

    Proctor, K. Harvey

    Gale, Roger

    Raffan, Keith

    Galley, Roy

    Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover)

    Gardiner, George (Reigate)

    Rhodes James, Robert

    Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde)

    Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

    Garel-Jones, Tristan

    Ridsdale, Sir Julian

    Goodhart, Sir Philip

    Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)

    Goodlad, Alastair

    Rost, Peter

    Gow, Ian

    Rowe, Andrew

    Gower, Sir Raymond

    Ryder, Richard

    Greenway, Harry

    Sackville, Hon Thomas

    Gregory, Conal

    Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

    Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N)

    Sayeed, Jonathan

    Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom)

    Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

    Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

    Shelton, William (Streathan)

    Hampson, Dr Keith

    Shepherd, Richard (Aldridg)

    Hanley, Jeremy

    Silvester, Fred

    Hargreaves, Kenneth

    Sims, Roger

    Haselhurst, Alan

    Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

    Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk)

    Soames, Hon Nicholas

    Hawksley, Warren

    Speller, Tony

    Hayes, J.

    Spencer, Derek

    Hayhoe, Barney

    Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

    Heathcoat-Amory, David

    Stanbrook, Ivor

    Heddle, John

    Stern, Michael

    Hickmet, Richard

    Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)

    Hicks, Robert

    Stewart, Ian (N Hertf'dshire)

    Hind, Kenneth

    Sumberg, David

    Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

    Taylor, John (Solihull)

    Holt, Richard

    Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

    Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)

    Temple-Morris, Peter

    Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)

    Terlezki, Stefan

    Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

    Thompson, Donald (Calder V)

    Jackson, Robert

    Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)

    Jessel, Toby

    Thornton, Malcolm

    Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

    Thurnham, Peter

    Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

    van Straubenzee, Sir W.

    Jones, Robert (W Herts)

    Viggers, Peter

    Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

    Waddington, David

    Key, Robert

    Wakeham, Rt Hon John

    King, Roger (B'ham N 'field)

    Walden, George

    Knight, Gregory (Derby N)

    Waller, Gary

    Knight, Mrs Jill (Edgbaston)

    Ward, John

    Knowles, Michael

    Wardle, C. (Bexhill)

    Knox, David

    Watson, John

    Latham, Michael

    Watts, John

    Lawler, Geoffrey

    Wells, Bowen (Hertford)

    Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh)

    Wheeler, John

    Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

    Whitfield, John

    Lester, Jim

    Whitney, Raymond

    Lilley, Peter

    Wiggin, Jerry

    Lloyd, Ian (Havant)

    Winterton, Mrs Ann

    Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham)

    Winterton, Nicholas

    Lyell, Nicholas

    Wolfson, Mark

    Macfarlane, Neil

    Yeo, Tim

    MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire)

    Maclean, David John

    Tellers for the Ayes:

    Major, John

    Mr. Michael Neubert and

    Maples, John

    Mr. Tony Durrant.

    NOES

    Alton, David

    Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)

    Archer, Rt Hon Peter

    Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

    Atkinson, N. (Tottenham)

    John, Brynmor

    Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

    Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

    Barnett, Guy

    Kennedy, Charles

    Barron, Kevin

    Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

    Beckett, Mrs Margaret

    Kirkwood, Archy

    Beith, A. J.

    Lamond, James

    Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh)

    Leighton, Ronald

    Bermingham, Gerald

    Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Lewis, Terence (Worsley)

    Blair, Anthony

    Litherland, Robert

    Bray, Dr Jeremy

    McDonald, Dr Oonagh

    Bruce, Malcolm

    McKay, Allen (Penistone)

    Buchan, Norman

    McKelvey, William

    Caborn, Richard

    McNamara, Kevin

    Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)

    McTaggart, Robert

    Campbell-Savours, Dale

    McWilliam, John

    Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y)

    Madden, Max

    Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

    Marek, Dr John

    Clay, Robert

    Maynard, Miss Joan

    Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.)

    Meadowcroft, Michael

    Cohen, Harry

    Milian, Rt Hon Bruce

    Cook, Frank (Stockton North)

    Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

    Cook, Robin F. (Livingston)

    Nellist, David

    Corbett, Robin

    Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

    Cowans, Harry

    O'Brien, William

    Craigen, J. M.

    O'Neill, Martin

    Dalyell, Tam

    Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

    Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l)

    Park, George

    Deakins, Eric

    Parry, Robert

    Dewar, Donald

    Patchett, Terry

    Dixon, Donald

    Pavitt, Laurie

    Dormand, Jack

    Pendry, Tom

    Dubs, Alfred

    Penhaligon, David

    Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

    Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

    Eastham, Ken

    Prescott, John

    Edwards, Bob (W'h'mpt'n SE)

    Radice, Giles

    Evans, John (St. Helens N)

    Randall, Stuart

    Ewing, Harry

    Redmond, M.

    Fisher, Mark

    Richardson, Ms Jo

    Foot, Rt Hon Michael

    Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood)

    Forrester, John

    Skinner, Dennis

    Foster, Derek

    Snape, Peter

    Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

    Spearing, Nigel

    Garrett, W. E.

    Steel, Rt Hon David

    George, Bruce

    Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

    Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

    Strang, Gavin

    Godman, Dr Norman

    Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

    Gourlay, Harry

    Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)

    Hamilton, James (M'well N)

    Tinn, James

    Hardy, Peter

    Torney, Tom

    Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

    Wallace, James

    Heffer, Eric S.

    Wareing, Robert

    Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

    Wilson, Gordon

    Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

    Winnick, David

    Howells, Geraint

    Hoyle, Douglas

    Tellers for the Noes:

    Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

    Mr. Frank Haynes and

    Hughes, Roy (Newport East)

    Mr. Austin Mitchell.

    Question accordingly agreed to.
    Clause 87 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Schedule 22 agreed to.
    Bill (Clause 3, 10, 35, 40, 54, 64, 87; and Schedules 12, 16, and 22), reported, without amendment; to lie upon the table.

  Sports and Recreational Facilities
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Sainsbury.]
  8.17 pm
  Mr. John Carlisle: During the last Adjournment debate that I initiated, on the subject of sporting links with South Africa, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment commenced his remarks by telling me that he felt that I had said some things which, in his words, were better left unsaid. Since we now have a fair amount of time for this debate, I hope that he will take ample opportunity, as possibly will other hon. Members, to explore this very relevant and important subject of the loss of playing fields and sports facilities.
  I am particularly grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to enlarge upon this subject because of my deep disappointment that on 25 January I was allowed only a few minutes in which to introduce my Sports Fields and Recreational Facilities Bill. I was disappointed because of a seemingly deliberate Government tactic to prevent me from developing the argument. I was also disappointed because other hon. Members who wanted to speak were unable to do so. My disappointment was best summed up by Mr. Peter Lawson, the secretary of the Central Council of Physical Recreation, who referred to the Bill being
  "callously talked out by indifferent and insensitive politicians."
  Many sportsmen and others cannot understand parliamentary procedure, and it is disappointing that a fairly modest Bill which would have cost the Government very little was deliberately talked out and now has very little chance of reaching the statute book. That is why I am particularly grateful for this opportunity, not to go over old ground again but to provide fresh evidence and, moreover, give my hon. Friend the opportunity to make a full and detailed reply.
  At a time when relations between Parliament and sportsmen are probably at an all-time low because of the various controversies involving football hooliganism, the abolition of the Greater London council and the consequential uncertainty for sport and the controversy surrounding the Sports Council, it does this House no good if certain modest and reasonable Bills which have all-party support are prevented from being discussed on the Floor of the House. I hope that this Adjournment debate will give an opportunity to the Government and my hon. Friend to mend a few of the fences which were broken on the previous occasion. That is the first reason that I bring this subject to the attention of the House.
  The second reason is the welter of correspondence that I have received since the Bill was launched in December and the mass of evidence that has been brought to my attention, to the attention of other hon. Members and to the CCPR of the real threat to our sports facilities and playing fields. There is a real danger that some of those facilities are being lost. Perhaps the biggest problem of all is that nobody seems to know, not even Her Majesty's Government, exactly how much land has been lost and what land is in danger of being developed.
  Since the short debate on the Sports Fields and Recreational Facilities Bill, I have received numerous pieces of evidence from a mass of individuals and some fairly high-powered organisations. For example, the National Playing Fields Association has been in touch with
  848
  me, as has the London Sports Council; the National Council for Schools' Sports: Hampshire county council; Highgate Harriers athletics club, an old and famous club; the Football Association; the Association of Kent Cricket Clubs; numerous residents groups throughout the country, mainly from England but some from Wales; numerous parent-teacher associations, local councils and local councillors and numerous individuals from cities, towns and the countryside, all with a genuine fear that our sports fields and facilities are under threat from developers and that we in the House, and we as a Government, are not taking enough notice of that threat.
  Let me quote three examples to illustrate my point. An article appeared in The Birmingham Post which will be of particular interest to the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell), who I am pleased to see in his place on the Opposition Benches. A long article talks about
  "The lost fields of glory".
  It talks about the fight that various authorities and interested parties have been taking to Birmingham over the past few years and the rather desperate plight in which they now find themselves. As the article says:
  "in the past five years they have been too late to save 10 industrial or social club football pitches"—
  "they" being the Sports Council—
  "too late to stop four cricket squares and one rugby pitch from being ploughed up; too late to prevent 11 netball courts, three bowling greens and 21 tennis courts from closure; too late to rescue 43·3 acres of lost land in Birmingham 1972–80, 24·6 acres in Wolverhampton, four acres in Dudley, 11·1 acres in Sandwell, 11·5 acres in Walsall; nearly 100 acres in all. And these figures are by no means complete. They were supplied by industry—who, often the guilty party, was being asked to give evidence against itself."
  In the same article the local area chairman, Judith Mackay, is quoted as saying:
  "We must take aggressive action to preserve and improve. And people must be alert to possible closures. One borough council asked us what we knew about one site and it was discovered by accident that five or six others were in jeopardy."
  I do not believe that Birmingham is an isolated case in the instances that I have just listed.
  I received a letter from the British Amateur Rugby League Association which, again, will be of particular interest to my hon. Friend the Minister, who I believe was at the magnificent rugby league cup final on Saturday.
  Mr. Doug Hoyle: It was a good result as well.
  Mr. Carlisle: It may well have been. I accept that from the hon. Gentleman.
  In a letter to me dated 25 January 1985 the British Amateur Rugby League Association said:
  "One of our major problems has been acquiring playing fields to cope with our phenomenal growth in recent years, and I know that many other sports also have difficulties in acquiring playing fields."
  The third quote I received only this evening from the chairman of Chelsea football club, from where I was prevented from going to watch my team, Luton, in action by the earliness of this debate. I spoke to Ken Bates, the chairman, who has been in correspondence with me about the Bill and who has expressed his disappointment that the Government did not see fit to give it more time. He says:
  "We owe it to succeeding generations to preserve our playing facilities at all levels of the game."
  That is from the chairman of one of the most successful first division sides in the country.

  849
  Finally, let me quote the words of my hon. Friend the Minister at the CCPR conference on 23 November 1981 in Bournemouth, when he talked about land use. He said:
  "We must all use our imagination, With land, for example, that precious resource we must harbour for our and future generations, we must keep and make the most of what we have. We must also watch opportunities for extending our stock. For example, there is sometimes available land of apparently poor potential; that is small or oddly shaped and of little use to the conventional builder or developer. This land may well be sold cheaply and could then be used for a range of sporting activities—squash courts, or urban ski slopes, kick-about areas or playgrounds."
  I am sure that my hon. Friend will remember that well and I think that every hon. Member will support those words.
  Of the various powerful lobbies that have brought evidence before me, the two most powerful are the CCPR, which I have already mentioned, and the Sports Council. At the annual general meeting of the CCPR about two weeks ago the matter was brought up yet again. In his report at that meeting, the chairman again emphasised the sale of so-called surplus playing fields and the CCPR's alarm that that matter was not being closely monitored by the Government. That particular meeting was presided over by His Royal Highness Prince Philip. He is an interested party in this subject and is also president of the National Playing Fields Association.
  The chairman of the CCPR, speaking with the authority that he does, has time after time brought the matter, as indeed has the CCPR, to the attention of hon. Members and the Government. They have fought and instigated a vigorous campaign which resulted in a document which they circulated to all hon. Members, called "Sports Fields at Risk".
  The CCPR also has a national register which in 1982 reported that some 2,370 acres were on the land register for disposal, and within a year another 1,277 acres were added to that survey. The estimated acreage now is some 5,500 which is on the register of land subject to disposal. The CCPR has for some time urged the Government to remove that land from the land register. I shall be interested to hear what my hon. Friend has to say about that. Suffice it to say that vast tracts of land are at risk because they are on the land register.
  Of course not every acre and playing field could justifiably be kept for sports facilities, but those figures show the magnitude of the problem that we face. In the "Sports Fields at Risk" pamphlet, the CCPR concentrates almost entirely on falling rolls in schools. It quoted DES figures that between 1983 and 1990 rolls will fall by some 23 per cent. in the secondary sector. There is no doubt that local education authorities, under the DES instruction of pamphlet 909, are considering selling more land now for building than ever before.
  We should not be surprised at that, given the falling rolls. I understand that some fields are bound to come up for reasonable disposal. But what worries me is that when the numbers start to rise again, as they will—there is already some sign of that—some sports fields and facilities will have been developed and will be concrete for ever.
  I am also worried that in some inner city and urban areas children whose only fields are school sports fields will, when that school closes, find that a blade of grass is almost a rarity, which people have only in their gardens.
  850
  Space in towns and cities must be conserved. It is a sad fact that the Inner London education authority is bussing children out of town because no space for games is available near their schools.
  Another powerful lobby, the Sports Council, has expressed concern about the Minister's co-operation. I add my tribute to that of the Minister to the retiring chairman, Mr. Dick Jeeps, who spoke up for sportsmen and for their freedom to play wherever they want to play. He was a tireless worker and will be a great loss to the Sports Council. I regret the manner of his going. But perhaps we should not discuss that tonight. He will be sorely missed and it is unfortunate that he thought it necessary to resign.
  The Sports Council produced in 1984 a document on the loss of industrial sports grounds and set out the targets that should be acknowledged as interest in sport grows. For example, about 3 million people play soccer—and the numbers are rising. In almost every town and village all the available pitches are used fully. In Birmingham, 44 pitches are still needed by the Birmingham football association.
  The Football Association says that in 1971 a total of 36,904 clubs were members. In 1980, the last year for which figures are available, membership had risen to 39,730 clubs. The Rugby Football Union reported a membership in 1965 of fewer than 1,000 clubs. In 1979 it reported 1,840 clubs as members. If sports fields continue to disappear and be developed, the need for them will outstrip the facilities, particularly as the amount of leisure available increases alongside the popularity of the sports.
  The Sports Council, funded by the taxpayers, states in its document:
  "The basic conclusion is that the loss of one strategically located playing field can be critically important."
  A field which is no longer available is lost forever.
  We should look ahead and hope for constructive movements. I salute the Government's attempts, through the Sports Council, to make people more active in sport, but the facilities must be made available. It is nonsense to spend £500,000 on encouraging people to be active in sport when pitches are being lost to the developers. We must take account of the increasing number of school leavers who will want sports facilities. All our citizens are bound to have more leisure time. We must consider the health of our citizens. The Government are trying to promote healthy activities, but they must provide facilities for the various sports.
  We must also think about conservation. The Wildlife and Countryside Act is popular and well used. It has conserved parts of the country that would have been lost without it. Perhaps special parcels of land should be set aside for sport so that they cannot be built upon. In terms of national prestige I am also worried about the quality of our national games, particularly those played upon grass fields. If pitches are not available that must have some effect on how well we do.
  I support the Government stance on the Olympic games. It would be a great fillip to sport if the Olympic games came to Britain, but it would be a shame if the number of pitches and fields available on which people can train were reduced.
  No one seems to know exactly what the problem is. No Government Department has been able to tell me what acreage of school playing fields has been lost. I pay tribute

  851
  to the initiatives taken industrially with the 100 firms. However, the Government should not be remembered for losing playing fields and other sports facilities for ever.
  8.36 pm
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: I disagree deeply with the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) on a number of issues, but tonight he has done a considerable service to the House by choosing this subject and by the manner in which he has described some difficult problems.
  I am a member of the main organising committee of the 1986 Commonwealth games in Edinburgh. My capacity is not merely honorary, because I have attended all but one of the meetings and I have taken my membership extremely seriously.
  I must say bluntly that bids for hosting the Olympic games—whether by Manchester, Birmingham or London—will be harmed unless we can be sure that the Commonwealth games will be organised efficiently in the best British tradition. It will do no one a disservice if I say that that is in doubt. I speak frankly as a member of the organising committee, with butterflies in my stomach about what will happen in 1986.
  My right hon. Friend for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell) and I went to many of the functions and events organised in 1970. We were relaxed because we thought that the Edinburgh games would be a success. I pay tribute to Sir Herbert Brechin, who was chairman of the games committee, and others. We never had any doubts that on the day all would be well. However, today, a year ahead, I have a queasy feeling about the 1986 games. Does the Minister share the uncomfortable feelings and suspicions that all might not be well on the day?
  There are a number of issues involved, one being the vexed question of the velodrome. Rightly or wrongly, it has been open to the wind and rain and is warped. I have seen it and I know that it is unsafe in anything like its present condition. It will not be acceptable to cyclists riding at any speed. Does the Minister share our concern? If so, what should be done? If we do nothing, either we will come into disrepute not only with the cycling fraternity but with many others who believed that Edinburgh could provide the facilities. We need a new velodrome, which must be covered at considerable expense or it will go the same way as the present velodrome in the Scottish climate. We must face the fact that we cannot have an open-air velodrome. That means money with a capital M——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean): Order. I realise that the hon. Gentleman is raising an important point, but it is a little wide of the subject of the Adjournment. The Minister might find it difficult to reply to his points. Perhaps he could relate his remarks to the subject of the Adjournment, which is the loss of sports and recreational facilities.
  Mr. Denis Howell: With the greatest respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, although I understand your ruling, you will appreciate that all the facilities to be provided for the Commonwealth games and, if we have them, the Olympic games, will be designed and intended for the recreation of the mass of ordinary people. Therefore, the subject of the velodrome to be provided for the Commonwealth games in Edinburgh must be important to the recreational needs of Scotland. I ask you to consider that aspect.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I am sure that the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) will be able to link his remarks to the subject of the Adjournment.
  Mr. Dalyell: The subject on the Order Paper is the loss of sports and recreational facilities. I am talking about the loss of a velodrome, which is definitely a sports and recrational facility. Because of a whole series of circumstances and because of an unwillingness to pay the money to cover the velodrome last time around, we now have an unsatisfactory velodrome. Are we to turn to our Commonwealth partners and say, "Sorry, we cannot afford to do anything about it."? At the end of the day, the reputation of the British people and the Government are at stake. If we say sorry to the cyclists at this stage, questions will be raised about our fitness to provide facilities. I emphasise that it is no good bidding for the Olympic games if we have a smudge on our copy book because we have not provided the promised facilities for the Commonwealth games.
  I do not want to go into the problems of facilities for boxing and various other sports, unless the Minister would like to say something about that. The problems are real, but the subject may be out of order. However, it is legitimate to raise a matter that worries the organising committee of the Commonwealth games. What happens if, at the last moment, Commonwealth countries decide to pull out of the games because of the New Zealand rugby tour? It is high time—and the sooner the better—that the Government made it clear to the New Zealand Government that we disapprove of the rugby tour of South Africa——
  Mr. John Carlisle: No.
  Mr. Dalyell: I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a different view, but I am entitled to say that we are concerned about a fiasco at the last moment. I want to know what the Minister thinks about it. There is only a year to go and time is not on our side.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Ewing), amid some ribaldry during Question Time this afternoon because he was thought to be paddling a Scottish canoe, said that if there was a bid for the Olympic games we should do what other countries have done and have some of the events 400 or 500 miles away from the main centre—as, indeed, happened at Los Angeles. I support the serious bid by Manchester, which I visited recently. There is a considerable argument for staging the Olympic games in a city in the north of England. However, I hope that serious thought will be given to the possibility of spreading some of the events.
  I have known Colonel Satterthwaite since my Army days and I pay tribute to him for what he has done. At one stage he had the dubious distinction of being my commanding officer. I think highly of him. For more than 30 years he has played a great part in the provision of facilities. Like the hon. Member for Luton, North, I have listened to his arguments and I hope that the work of the National Playing Fields Association will be fully supported. I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the CCPR and the falling rolls—a problem that has been fully explained by our mutual friend, Mr. Peter Lawson.

  853
  I was attracted by the hon. Gentleman's idea of SSSIs. Planning permission for valuable community land is far too easily given by local authorities of all parties, which should know better, for short-term financial gain.
  Mr. John Carlisle: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will agree that in many cases unfortunate decisions are made by the Secretaries of State on appeal. In several cases where local authorities have been against development, the Secretary of State concerned allowed the development to go ahead. That is why the Government should be involved.
  Mr. Dalyell: I know of two such cases, and it was wrong of the Secretaries of State involved to give assent to development plans. They involved traditional sporting facilities in communities, and one was the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Scotland. It is no good saying that there are alternatives, because they all take time.
  I echo the question posed by the hon. Member for Luton, North. What about SSSIs for sporting facilities? Together with my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath I spent 100 hours of my life in the Committee stage of the Wildlife and Countryside Act and I know the difficulty of SSSIs, but, given the frailty of certain local authorities and certain Secretaries of State—and not confined to one party—there is an argument for SSSIs. I do not expect the Minister to produce an answer off the top of his head tonight, but it is an idea worth consideration.
  I do not want to rub salt in the wounds, because I know that the Scottish Conservative party conference is taking place and I do not want to take advantage of grief. The West Lothian county cricket club ground at Bogfall, which is a modest ground with small attendances, is paying twice the rates of the place where I shall be making a speech on Monday evening—the city of Worcester. Worcester has a famous county cricket ground that welcomes the Australians and heaven knows who else, but it pays half the rates of the modest Linlithgow ground.
  This is not the time to go into the problem of Scottish rating, but there is a heck of a problem for junior football clubs, cricket clubs and other sporting facilities that are being hit amidships by the level of rates. However, if anyone could have offered comforting words on that subject, it would have been done before now. I cannot restrain myself from saying that it is a very real problem for sporting facilities in Scotland.
  8.50 pm
  Mr. Martin M. Brandon-Bravo: I was pleased to be a co-sponsor of the Sports Fields and Recreational Facilities Bill which my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) presented some weeks ago. In that measure, he sought to establish a form of registration of sporting land, and I entirely support his concern for the protection of land that is suitable or is currently being used for sporting and recreational purposes.
  In a climate of high unemployment—a social problem that will be with us for a long time—the ability to offer the people an outlet for their energies by way of sporting activities is a small but important way of easing the depressing burden of enforced idleness due to unemployment.
  854
  I accept that not all land is being used properly. I have no doubt that, on careful inquiry, it might be found that some land is surplus to requirements or is unsuitable. However, we should handle this issue with the greatest care because land currently being used for recreational purposes, once lost is extremely difficult to bring back into that use.
  I particularly draw the attention of the Minister to what I can only describe as the extraordinary activities—I am being remarkably polite in using that phraseology—of my county council in Nottinghamshire. A memorandum in October 1983 said:
  "As you know, neither the Chairman of the Education Committee nor the Director of Education is aware of the investigations which have been taking place."
  In a letter, one of the officers wrote:
  "No site has been discussed with the District Councils and it is quite possible, therefore, that these proposals may well conflict with the thoughts and ideas of the District Councils."
  I was one of those district councillors. I was indeed highly surprised at the outcome of those so-called investigations and the bald announcement that large areas of land in my area were up for grabs. Many of them were school playing fields that were properly being used for sport and recreation, and they should continue in that use. Happily, some of our district councils have used the planning mechanism to ensure that that little subterfuge did not become a practical reality, at least not in large measure.
  Precisely because of that behind-closed-doors practice, which is still possible, we must seek from the Minister some way of protecting ourselves against the loss of sporting and recreational land in that way. We talk of local automony, local democracy and so on. Nevertheless, this place must have a role in national policy in this sphere and must offer hon. Members a means by which we can protect ourselves if and when a local authority abuses the autonomy that it is given. There must be a means by which we can say, "That is unreasonable. That is unjust. You are selling land in your area that is rightly reserved for recreation."
  It was reasonable, therefore, for my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North to seek a mechanism by which the public at large would be aware of the existence of a register of land designated for sport and recreation. Then, if a local authority—it would be acting properly in certain circumstances—claimed that certain land was surplus, that would be public knowledge, there would be public discussion and the ultimate decision would be reasonable and fair and be seen to be so. At present, under existing legislation, that protection is not available because there is no such register. I know what happened in my county. I would not wish it to happen elsewhere.
  8.55 pm
  Mr. Denis Howell: I congratulate the hon. Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle) on taking advantage of the opportunity to widen the scope of the Adjournment debate that he has initiated. I also congratulate him on following through from his unfortunate experience with his private Member's Bill.
  We have far too few debates on sport, as I know from experience. I am sure that the Minister shares that view. Indeed, it does not help Ministers if pressure is not placed on them by hon. Members and if insufficient interest is shown in the whole subject.
  As we are discussing recreational facilities for the broad mass of the people, I can tell the House from experience

  855
  that sport is a cultural pursuit—it is the people's culture—which attracts the excitement and attention of a greater proportion of the population than is attracted to any other leisure pursuit, and I define "sport" in terms of recreation, too. We are, therefore, grateful to the hon. Member for Luton, North not only for providing this opportunity but for raising half a dozen or more subjects of considerable interest.
  I join him in expressing appreciation to Mr. Dick Jeeps for his work as chairman of the Sports Council. He was originally appointed by me. He brought a breath of fresh air into that organisation and we are grateful to him for that. The hon. Gentleman referred to Mr. Jeeps' comments about sportsmen playing wherever they wished to play. I am not sure that in public Mr. Jeeps went as far as the hon. Gentleman suggested, although in private he may well have done so, and that is the one reservation I have about his chairmanship. Nevertheless, the House should express its appreciation to him, as I do from the Labour Benches and as I am sure the Minister will.
  The Minister will forgive me for saying that if the newspaper reports are accurate about Mr. Jeeps' successor, we on these Benches will be glad to welcome him. When I was Minister, Mr. John Smith produced an outstanding report on the future of lawn tennis. He is chairman of one of the most successful football league clubs and is a business man of great acumen.
  I do not ask the Minister to comment on whether the rumours are right, in advance of his statement tomorrow, but if the rumours are right, as I believe them to be, we shall be fortunate to get Mr. Smith to give time for the chairmanship of the Sports Council. We wish him well and assure him of our support.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) raised two important points concerning the Olympic games and the Commonwealth games. I have always believed that one cannot divorce the relationship between sport at the highest echelons—the winning at that level of gold medals and the rest—from the inspirational effect that that has for large numbers of youngsters at the grass roots of society. The two aspects are linked.
  Whenever Britain has been successful in sporting events—recently, we had four distinguished gold medal winners in ice skating events and, going back to my days as Minister, I recall when Ann Jones won at Wimbledon—there has been an upsurge of interest in sport. The tragedy is that we are not prepared to provide the necessary facilities for people who think, "If Torvill and Dean can win a gold medal, perhaps I should have a go at that." The justification for Britain's participation in international sport—apart from the fact that it inspires pride in our country, establishes goodwill internationally and sets standards—has always been the inspiration to play sport that it creates throughtout the land, and that should not be taken lightly. Britain's bid for the Olympic games, in which, I believe, the Under-Secretary of State is very much involved, is justified on the ground that the games will create enormous interest and result in new facilities.
  It is important to consider who will finance the games, which may cost several hundreds of millions of pounds. I understand that the Under-Secretary of State says that he would like a private enterprise Olympic games, as was the case in Los Angeles. That is why the hon. Gentleman has supported the proposal and has encouraged various cities, including London, to bid for the games. One would hope
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  that private money would be raised to finance the games, but an enormous amount of public money must also be found and decisions of great public importance must be made. Each of the cities involved in the bidding—whether it is London, Birmingham, Manchester or anywhere else—is short on infrastructure and facilities. It will cost a great deal of money to provide them. For example, London has nowhere to put a village. It would have to build a village capable of housing between 16,000 and 18,000 people. That would require public investment. That was the point that I was trying to make during Question Time today. Even if London has the necessary stadiums and private enterprise facilities, an enormous amount of public investment is still required.
  The bid to host the Olympic games will not be taken seriously until the Government state their intentions with regard to providing opportunities and infrastructure. The Government's silence on those matters has createc great concern.
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: The right hon. Gentleman has mentioned those cities that are bidding to host the Olympic games. I join him in hoping that Britain succeeds. Will the right hon. Gentleman join me in putting Nottingham's claims to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State? That city—the "queen of the midlands"—has the national water sports centre and has the ability to be the venue for three of the Olympic disciplines. It does not need a penny to be spent on infrastructure, because the infrastructure is already there.
  Mr. Howell: As I was partly responsible for the decision to site the national water sports centre in Nottingham, I fully endorse the hon. Gentleman's point. We are unlikely to be able to hold the rowing and canoeing events in a city other than Nottingham. Nottingham is bound to play a central role. A word of warning is necessary, however. It is a city that must bid for the Olympic games. With the exception of the rowing and canoeing events, possibly the shooting and equestrian events and the yachting events, which obviously cannot take place in a city but must take place near a coastal area, the International Olympic Committee will expect all events to be held within a city. The IOC will expect one village and not two, as was the case in Los Angeles, to be created. That is why I referred earlier to the siting of an Olympic village. I think that what happened in this respect in Los Angeles will never be repeated.
  Mr. John Carlisle: I regret that I was not in the House this afternoon at Question Time, but I was helping to open a sports facility at Flitwick in my constituency. Will the right hon. Gentleman allay the fears that some of us have about some of his earlier reported remarks? When it was mooted that the Olympic games should come to a British city, he gave the impression that he was somewhat against the idea. Can we have his categorical assurance that he would fully support the British Olympic Association and any part that the Government may have to play if the Olympic games were to come to this country?
  Mr. Howell: I do not know why Conservative Members persist in leading with their chins. The hon. Gentleman has done so. I shall support the bid and in 1979 when I was the Minister responsible for sport I said that the British Olympic Association's bid to bring the games to this country had the Government's full support. I do not

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  blame the Minister, but the incoming Conservative Government promptly ditched that bid. If they had not done so, we should have had the 1988 Olympic games, which are due to be held in Seoul. The Conservative Government were completely opposed to the idea and refused to support the British Olympic Association. I do not want to go over history. I am glad of the conversion and I support the bid.
  The hon. Member for Luton, North may have misunderstood my comments. There is some scepticism in the world of sport about the ability of anywhere, except possibly Barcelona, to hold the 1992 games. Barcelona is the home town of the president of the International Olympic Committee. He is likely to retire in 1992 and he is committed to having the games in his country in that year. I understand that.
  I fully support the bid, if it is a practical proposition, but I think one is entitled to express realism or scepticism.
  I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow for mentioning the Edinburgh games. We are back to the essential problem of the Olympic bid—what money are the Government prepared to put into the games? My hon. Friend kindly mentioned the 1970 games with which I was considerably involved. The Labour Government gave financial support. The existing stadium—not the swimming pool which, to its credit, Edinburgh council built—and the velodrome were the result of considerable Government investment.
  As I understand it, the Government have not offered a penny to Edinburgh for the 1986 games, and have no intention of doing so. That is not the way to convince the world that we are serious about international sport. Some things are rightly left to private enterprise. I am not against that, but I am against them being left completely to private enterprise.
  The Minister should ensure that funds are available for the velodrome, which is a matter of great anxiety. It will be a tragedy if those facilities are not provided. I know that the Minister is as anxious as we are that the games should succeed. I ask him to intervene, and if funds are a difficulty, to ensure that the problems are quickly overcome. It is not asking too much of the Government that they should put some money into facilities for the Edinburgh games.
  I shall not comment at length about what my hon. Friend said about the New Zealand rugby tour. I am not sure that he is being as fair to the New Zealand Government as he should be. No Government could have been more forthright. In conference, the Commonwealth Prime Ministers have twice asserted their support for the Gleneagles agreement and the importance of maintaining it. It is no credit to the Rugby Football Union that it persists in following a selfish attitude.
  Mr. John Carlisle: They are free people.
  Mr. Howell: Of course people are free to take their own decisions, but freedom means accepting responsibilities as well as asserting liberties. The difficulty with the RFU is that it asserts its liberties but refuses to accept responsibility for the state of sport within the Commonwealth or for any sport other than its own.
  That is a lamentable situation.
  I deal next with some of the important points that were raised by the hon. Member for Luton, North. I can endorse
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  almost all that he said. I am grateful to him for referring to the Birmingham experience. A large number of sports grounds have been lost in the area. The hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Ottaway) made an important point in giving his experience, particularly with regard to planning refusals.
  Nothing like enough is being done by planning committees, and certainly by Ministers and Government, to assert the importance of green belt and open space land. When planning requirements are being considered, the role of open space in an urban situation, particularly for people living in towns and cities, is a matter of cardinal importance at an inquiry. I must accept a little responsibility because I served as a Minister at the Department of the Environment, so I am in no way trying to make a point against the Minister in party terms. However, we do not assert sufficiently the need, when inquiries are being held, to include in the equation the community good and the importance of open spaces, playing fields or sports fields.
  Industrial sports fields in Birmingham have been lost mainly because industrial sports on a Saturday afternoon are no longer as important as they were when people worked a five-and-a-half-day week before the last war. There has been an enormous change in the number of industrial sports fields. To go back almost 20 years, an inquiry into these matters was conducted by a member of the Sports Council. I asked an eminent executive of ICI, Bob Gibb, to conduct it. We might do well to take the Gibb report on industrial sports fields out of the pigeon hole and consider it again. Its theme was that when a sports field becomes surplus to the use of the employees of a firm, it should go the community as a whole. He also said, rightly, that industrial sports fields should not just be open air, but the concepts of an industrial sports club must include the provision of indoor facilities.
  I hope that the Minister will tell the House that he can do something to instruct planning committees and inspectors to take into account the recreational needs of the community as a whole when taking their decisions.
  The Government got into difficulties when they issued a recent circular to education authorities and universities instructing them to sell off their surplus land. In an urban situation there cannot be any such surplus sports land at a time when 4 million people are unemployed. The need for a leisure service is greater now than it has ever been in the history of the country. How can we talk about football hooliganism on the one hand, which is an inevitable result of the boredom of the unemployed in society——
  Mr. John Carlisle: Nonsense.
  Mr. Howell: I take issue with the hon. Gentleman. If one makes an analysis of many of the people who get into trouble, one will discover that this occurs because the discipline of work and of the workplace no longer exists in their lives.
  Mr. Carlisle: I challenge what the right hon. Gentleman has said. He stated that football hooliganism was almost a direct result of unemployment. He will understand, because he is much travelled and is experienced in these matters, that in the worst unemployment areas, particularly in the north and sometimes in Scotland, the amount of football hooliganism relative to the the population is tiny. All the

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  problems that have arisen in the last few months in particular have been in the south. How does the right hon. Gentleman relate the lower unemployment rate in the south and the higher unemployment rate in the north to what he has just said?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We are going rather wide of the Adjournment debate, which is about the loss of facilities.
  Mr. Howell: The problems last Saturday with Manchester City supporters in the hon. Gentleman's constituency had nothing to do with the south of England. That adequately answers the hon. Gentleman's intervention. It could not have had anything to do with the south of England because Notts County was playing Manchester City. The hon. Gentleman will not deny that vandalism and associated problems are on the increase. This debate is about whether we have the facilities, whether they are available to the public and whether we have leadership. It cannot help the 4 million unemployed to sell educational playing fields. I would be astonished if the hon. Gentleman denied that. That is the simple point which I have sought to make in this part of our discussions. I am glad to see from the hon. Gentleman that at least we have reached agreement again.
  I shall now deal with the pricing policy of many local authorities for facilities. Although we are debating the loss of facilities, the Government's policy on rates, which effectively prices out the people whom we wish to attract to our sports facilities, is doing no good. I hope that the Minister will think it right to take an initiative on that. Unless we see sport as a social service to the whole community, in the same way as the health and education services are, we shall never get the matter right. It depends on pricing policy.
  Many people have come to see me, including some Manchester United supporters. I asked them why they got into trouble, and they replied that they wanted to play five-a-side football but none of the local sports halls would let them in because they could not afford the high charges. Pricing policy is an important aspect of sports halls, swimming baths and similar facilities.
  I now come to the rating policy, from which we are suffering. In Birmingham we have recently had an action sport programme. It was well thought out, and designed to have sporting leaders, such as great athletes, going out into local communities to persuade people to use the facilities and to be active. In answer to a question earlier today, the Minister or one of his colleagues said that all our programmes were pump-priming exercises. The Government get them on the road and then hand them over to local authorities. The Sports Council suddenly told Birmingham city council that, although it had paid the whole cost last year, it would pay 50 per cent. this year, 25 per cent. next year and nothing thereafter. That would be all right if Birmingham could spend what it wanted to spend on the programmes within its rate resources. However, a Department of State has told the council that it cannot do that, and that if it does, that Department will rate-cap it and ensure that it limits its expenditure. There is an inherent contradiction in the social policies that the Government wish to follow and the rating policy which prevents local authorities from following that same policy. I do not want to be party political——
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: The right hon. Gentleman is doing very well on that.
  Mr. Howell: All the most intelligent statements come from the Labour party, as the hon. Gentleman knows. I am seeking to raise genuine problems, which I hope the Minister will consider. Certainly, rating is a matter of the greatest importance.
  Another aspect of rating policy——
  Mr. David Ashby: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that rating is a matter of priorities? The local authority must work out its priorities. If it works them out badly and goes over the limits, it will be rate-capped. The right hon. Gentleman's argument is false.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I hope that the House will not get into a debate about rating policy, which is wide of the subject of the Adjournment debate.
  Mr. Howell: You will appreciate, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I move on to the removal of buses to take school children to playing fields and swimming pools, how related those matters are. It is no good having swimming baths if the local authority cannot afford to transport children to them. That is happening in my constituency. School after school is writing to me and saying, "Because of the restrictions on rating expenditure, the education department has told us that our children cannot go to the playing fields or swimming baths." I simply relate the problem without dwelling on it for too long.
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: The right hon. Gentleman is using the licence of the Chair to an extraordinary extent. Nottinghamshire county council is seeking to prevent children from non-maintained schools—private sector schools—from using swimming baths, playing fields or other facilities that their parents have paid for through rates and taxes. The loss of school buses has nothing to do with the problem. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leicestershire, North-West (Mr. Ashby) said, the priorities are in the hand of the local authority, which has thoroughly abused them.
  Mr. Howell: I do not understand the language that the hon. Gentleman is using. If what I said has nothing to do with the problem, why is he raising it? Why is he telling us that the action of Nottinghamshire county council is adversely affecting those people? I shall acquaint myself with the problem, because the leader of Nottinghamshire county council used to be a councillor in my constituency. He is a good friend of mine and I shall talk to him about the matter. I believe that all schoolchildren should be encouraged to use facilities for physical education——
  Mr. Ashby rose——
  Mr. Howell: I shall not give way, because I should incur the displeasure of the Chair.
  Mr. Ashby: May I intervene on that point?
  Mr. Howell: I cannot give way again, because I have given way many times. I am glad to provide this seminar for Conservative Members.
  Mr. Brandon-Bravo: We are interested in the subject.
  Mr. Howell: I am glad to hear that, but I shall not give way, because I wish to move on from playing fields and swimming baths——
  Mr. Ashby rose——
  Mr. Howell: No. I am a good referee, and once I have taken a decision I, like you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, stand firm. I do not wish to produce yellow or red cards.
  I commend to the Minister the policy in Birmingham, in the hope that he will review it sympathetically. The city council has just decided—it is a magnificent all-party decision—that the use of schools and educational facilities outside school time should be the responsibility of the leisure services department. The Minister and I have made many speeches about the importance of educational facilities being used outside school hours and at weekends. I am glad to report to the House that Birmingham has agreed such a policy. There will be difficulties with the present financial climate, but the policy is that all Birmingham schools, playing fields and swimming pools can be used by the entire community at all times outside school hours. We should be grateful for the lead of Mr. Demian, the director of leisure resources in Birmingham, and for the fact that the proposal has been taken up enthusiastically by party leaders on both sides of the council.
  Mr. Ashby: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Howell: Is it on this point or on the previous point?
  Mr. Ashby: It is on this point.
  Mr. Howell: I put the hon. Gentleman on his honour.
  Mr. Ashby: It is interesting that the right hon. Gentleman has said that Birmingham is trying to encourage all school children to use the facilities. Will he prevail on the Greater London council, particularly the Inner London education authority, to do exactly the same? The GLC has what is really an apartheid policy, in that if one is in the state system, one may use all the facilities, but if one is outside the state system, one does not have a hope. Can we not have equal treatment, because, after all, children are children? Will the right hon. Gentleman prevail on the Labour ILEA to do the same for all children?
  Mr. Howell: I am sorry that I gave way, because it is obvious that the hon. Gentleman was referring not to the point that I was on, but to the point made by his hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Brandon-Bravo). I shall comment on it only to say that I shall acquaint myself with the problem, which I undertook to do with the hon. Member for Nottingham, South as well.
  It is not for us in the House fully to endorse the policy of any one local authority. However, a local authority has now decided unanimously, on an all-party basis, to endorse, after all these years, the very policies that we have been putting forward, to ensure that school facilities are used, and opened up for the adult population at times other than school time. I hope that the Minister will find it possible to say a word of support.
  I should like to refer to children's play. I endorse what my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) said about Colonel Bob Satterthwaite and his wonderful work with the National Playing Fields Association. That organisation has embraced the needs of children's play. The Minister has been coy recently about that area. I remember the Prime Minister making a statement that the hon. Gentleman would be specifically responsible for children's play in future. That announcement was made
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  about two years ago, since when not one word has been uttered about it as far as I can trace. [HON. MEMBERS: "That is not true."] I am pleased to hear it.
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Neil Macfarlane): Where has the right hon. Gentleman been?
  Mr. Howell: I have been watching the Minister, which is probably why I have not heard anything.
  If the Minister has been active in the area, perhaps he can tell us what initiatives have been taken to extend play facilities for children around the country. As the National Playing Fields Association does not feel that much has been achieved, I hope that the Minister can set its mind at rest. Only three weeks ago I went to a conference in another part of the House, in which Colonel Bob Satterthwaite was a leading participant, speaking on this subject. He gave instance after instance of the effect of rate support grant policies on the withdrawal of playing facilities for children. Therefore, if the hon. Gentleman has been active and if there is a good story to tell, by now it should have percolated to the National Playing Fields Association and others in that area. I am happy to raise the matter now so that the Minister can inform us about what is happening.
  This has been an interesting opportunity to raise many matters that are of mutual concern, even if we do not entirely agree on everything. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Luton, North for raising the matter, and giving the Minister the opportunity to reply in detail to the many points that have been raised.
  9.23 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Neil Macfarlane): I checked the Order Paper for 8 May 1985, and began to wonder where I should have been tonight. It states:
  "On the Motion for the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 1 Mr. John Carlisle proposes to raise the subject of the loss of sports and recreational facilities."
  That is a most important subject. Many equally important subjects have been raised by hon. Members on both sides of the House, but they will understand that the most important element and main thrust of the debate is the subject raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Mr. Carlisle).
  My hon. Friend has pursued the matter for some time. He feels passionately about it. I regret that a certain air of levity has entered into the debate with one or two comments by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell). He must understand that one of the first things that I shall do is to ask my officials to guarantee that between 1964 and 1970, and 1974 and 1979, not one half an acre of land was lost for alternative development purposes. That is one of the most important things that I shall check.
  I endorse the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North and by the right hon. Member for Small Heath about the chairman of the Sports Council. I wish to be associated with their comments, and those remarks in the media should not be pursued too far. I regret that Mr. Jeeps is resigning and we all wish him well.
  The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) has raised a number of points, and it is difficult for me to comment in too much detail on them. I have been to Edinburgh twice in the past 21 months, given the concern

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  of Kenneth Borthwick and his committee, to have a look at the various facilities. The hon. Member for Linlithgow understands the roles of the Scottish Office and my Department in this and he knows that I should like to have an update to see where things stand and how things are. I guarantee to pass on his comments to my hon. Friend in the Scottish Office and to try to find out a little more about the programme. I understand the urgency in all this and I wish to try to find out from the organising committee what its views of his comments are, because that is important.
  Like the right hon. Member for Small Heath, I do not wish to be party political. However, there must inevitably be a question mark whenever there is extremism in county hall or city halls. There must be mounting anxiety about some people who have made observations and comments, and we see that in a number of city halls.
  I shall not comment about the effect of rugby tours because it is too early to do so. The British Lions tour is due to take place in South Africa next year and a tour by the All Blacks may take place next year. That will undoubtedly force its attention on members of the Commonwealth, but I am satisfied that the Government do all that they can to ensure that everybody understands that the Government are full supporters of the Gleneagles declaration. I understand the hon. Member for Linlithgow's concern about these things, but I cannot comment because I am not up-to-date about the precise preparations for the various facilities on which he touched. I shall find out a little more and come back to him later.
  Mr. Dalyell: When the hon. Gentleman goes on his visit, will he have a quiet, listening meeting with the Edinburgh district council? It is all very well to talk about extremism in city halls, but they have extreme problems. I assure the hon. Gentleman that Alec Wood and his colleagues have a serious point of view to put. The Minister should listen and talk to them.
  Mr. Macfarlane: I listen and talk to everybody who is elected. Sometimes, the vibrations of the actions of people in city halls can have an adverse effect and give rise to failure and lack of confidence, as my hon. Friends would agree.
  Many matters have been raised this evening. I cannot comment on all of them, because my hon. Friend the Member for Berkshire, East (Mr. MacKay) has caught your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and is to introduce an Adjournment debate on a subject that interests him. However, my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North has rightly drawn some specific matters to the attention of the House. Like him, I am anxious to ensure that the Sports Council and the provision of opportunities for sport and recreation today meet the needs of the communities. We are all familiar with the growth in the demand for all manner of sporting activities. We all welcome the increasing participation in recent years, as everyone's leisure time has expanded. We recognise the benefits for the community in health, fitness and sheer enjoyment. As the right hon. Member for Small Heath said, it is the people's culture.
  The Government have made clear their commitment to help meet this important need, particularly in the deprived urban and rural areas, so I understand the broader anxieties behind the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North shares our concern that there should be adequate facilities for local communities. The debate is not about
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  aims and concerns, because we share them. It is about gaining a balanced assessment of overall provision, taking account of the gains and losses of facilities to gauge the nature and level of a problem about which my hon. Friend has talked, which is undoubtedly real in some areas and situation. I do not deny that for a moment.
  My hon. Friend has concentrated on the losses, but we must also consider the general context. He gave a graphic illustration of the losses in Birmingham, as did the right hon. Member for Small Heath, but from my knowledge of that excellent city I should have thought that what the city council has achieved more than compensates for the losses. There are some superb new facilities which automatically reduce the net loss.
  All the providers of facilities in this country—the the public and private sectors, the voluntary movement, and so on—are united in the aim to achieve more and better facilities and opportunities for sport and recreation. The common efforts have been successful and we must all strive to ensure that that trend continues. There are more and better facilities in this country than there were 20 years ago when some of us here today were more actively and pleasantly employed participating in sport on a regular basis.
  For example, we now have the better part of 1,000 public swimming pools and more than 1,000 indoor sports halls of more than 26 m by 16·5 m. In 1970, there were only 24 sports centres in the whole of England. There are now 27 ice rinks, a net gain of 10 since 1970. We have 66 synthetic athletics tracks compared with 12 in 1970, and 210 purpose-built tennis courts compared with 100 in 1970. We now have 50 all-weather artificial grass pitches. In 1970 there were none. There are also many non-grass artificial pitches. We now have more than 1,000 golf courses, 185 indoor bowls halls and 65 artificial ski slopes. It seems that we are now tending to go indoors.
  Mr. John Carlisle: I acknowledge those improvements; both Governments can take pride in the additional facilities that have been provided. My hon. Friend will, acknowledge, however, that some of our great national sports—including cricket, his own first love—need grass pitches. Does he agree that if those grass pitches disappear, the compensation offered by indoor or all-weather pitches will not necessarily produce champions in those sports?
  Mr. Macfarlane: I sympathise with that observation and I shall come to it in a moment. I wish to emphasise the Government's record, which I am sure is important to my hon. Friend and indeed to the whole House.
  First, I remind the House that we have increased the Sports Council grant from £15 million in 1979 to more than £30 million in 1985—a cash increase of more than 100 per cent. In addition, there has been a substantial investment in sport and recreation facilities through my Department's urban programme and other relevant programmes such as the derelict land scheme. Such investment is currently about £35 million per year. More than 1,700 facilities have been built with the aid of central Government funds in the last two years alone.
  Of course, the major contribution to providing new and improved facilities has come from local authorities and from the efforts of voluntary bodies and the private sector. In sport and recreation we can still find a common thrust uniting all sectors of the population which I am sure many

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  of us would like to see repeated in other areas of endeavour. The private sector, too, has risen to the challenge of increased demand for provision—both on its own and in partnership with the public sector. Excellent examples of recreation provision for all ages and interests are Thorpe Park and Alton Towers and partnership schemes include the new docklands arena and the Westminster children's sports centre.
  As the House knows, there has been a particular growth in minority sports. Traditionally, when most of us were at school we played football or rugby and cricket and did some running when it rained. There was not much variety, but nowadays the range of opportunity is almost endless. When the right hon. Member for Small Heath first came to office he probably grant aided about 20 sports. There are now more than 140 governing bodies of sport. This is reflected in the diversity of sports grant aided by the Sports Council. We recognise 150 governing bodies of sport and other sporting bodies such as the British Olympic Association, the Central Council of Physical Recreation, the Sports Aid Foundation and the National Playing Fields Association. I, too, pay tribute to Colonel Satterthwaite and I am much relieved to know that the background of the hon. Member for Linlithgow includes a spell of service under his excellent leadership.
  Current grants to governing bodies for 1983–84 totalled £5·8 million for administration, coaching, training and international competition. At the grass roots level, the Sports Council grant aids many clubs and organisations throughout the regions to encourage participation. In 1983–84 it gave capital grants and loans totalling £5·7 million to a wide range of projects.
  Many of the new facilities are geared to the boom in interest in indoor activities. This may in part be due to the desire to escape the British weather, but needs change, and the type of provision must reflect that. Indeed, the general household survey has shown that participation in indoor sports more than doubled, from about 10 per cent., or nearly 4 million, of the adult population in 1973, to a massive 22·7 per cent., or more than 8·5 million, in 1980.
  The continuing growth in demand for indoor facilities is reflected in the phenomenal increase in indoor sports centres which I quoted earlier. Phenomenal growth means constant demand, and one way in which that demand is being met is the Sports Council's standardised approach to sports halls. This was introduced in 1984 as an off-the-peg local facility built to a standard design with the aim of providing a venue for many facilities. This has developed in partnership with the construction company Bovis. Ten "SASHes", as they were called—standardised approaches to sports halls—were built in 1984, and at Bitterne in Southampton, 6,000 people used the facility on its opening weekend. In Eastbourne, 2,000 memberships were sold during the first two weeks of the operation.
  It is interesting to note that the Sports Council has invested some £2·25 million in that initial programme. In 1983–84, grants totalling £2·8 million were allocated towards the provision of 30 local indoor dry facilities, 22 dual indoor dry facilities, six new playing pitches, six upgraded playing pitches, 18 changing room pavilion accommodation facilities, 14 artificial outdoor surfaces,
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  nine new swimming pools, three refurbished pools, 10 water recreational countryside schemes and 19 specialist facilities—for example, for bowls, riding and golf.
  I do not apologise for giving that shopping list, because my hon. Friends must understand exactly what the alternative development and diversification now is as a compensation towards the losses which may be occurring in the traditional sort of sports which we played.
  Another example is the huge increase in artificial grass pitches, which have many obvious advantages over natural grass. They lend themselves more readily to multi-use, such as hockey, football and volleyball, and to more intensive use. Thereby, they reduce sport's dependence on natural grass.
  This range of opportunities and type of provision represents a substantial change and achievement which we should not ignore in a debate of this kind. Some playing field losses may be a result of this change of character of demand, which is now catered for through new provision of a different kind. We now go indoors more than previous generations to play sport.
  The general household survey has shown a fall in the number of adults participating in football—perhaps the sport most associated with outdoor "natural grass" playing fields—from 3·3 per cent. of the population in 1977 to 3 per cent. in 1980. The growth rate of football clubs has slowed significantly in the last decade, although there are still some 40,000 clubs, with 1 million people playing each weekend. Perhaps the advent of artificial pitches with their more intensive use may prompt an upward swing in participation. I do not know, but we must be ready for that moment.
  On the other hand, water sports recreation has grown phenomenally over the last decade, both in participation and provision. This is an additional sector which my hon. Friend must consider. For example, in 1970 it was estimated that there were 3,280 members of water ski clubs; by 1980, membership had increased to 10,000. In 1970, there were about 31,000 members of sailing clubs; by 1980, that had reached more than 65,000. To match the growth in participation, new facilities have been developed, including Grafham water, Rutland water, Kielder, Cotswold water park, docklands and Thorpe park.
  However, our proud record is not just in new provision. We are also very good at making the best use of existing facilities. I am in a particularly good position to make that statement, because a year or so ago I took an initiative to find out how much community use there was of sports facilities owned by industry and commerce. As my hon. Friend knows, I wrote to the chairmen of the 100 top companies and nationalised industries asking them about community use of their facilities. I learned that most of these facilities are already open to the local community, and I am glad to say that the companies concerned have confirmed their commitment to local people and to continuing this vital contribution to the community.
  There remains, of course, some potential for expanding community use of industrial facilities. The Sports Council has undertaken discussions at the local level with some of the companies I wrote to, and it looks as if some new opportunities may emerge. The Government, the Sports Council and sports bodies generally must all continue to look for fresh or improved opportunities of this kind, but it is clear that we are already doing very well, and I express

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  my gratitude to all those companies which are helping us nationally and locally to make the best use of the facilities we have.
  Additionally, my colleagues in the Department of Education and Science have confirmed in a recent survey that most schools allow some dual use of their sport and recreational facilities. All of us involved in sport regard schools as a vital stock of facilities. I was encouraged by what the right hon. Member for Small Heath said about Birmingham. My admiration for the director of leisure services in Birmingham is endless. There is scope for opening up new opportunities. We have therefore launched with the Sports Council a new initiative, under the tital "Opening Doors". A very useful booklet has been issued setting out the lessons of good practice through examples from all around the country. I am grateful for the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North on this subject. Backing up this fresh publicity is some additional money in the Sports Council's grant for this year and next year for allocation to new dual-use schemes.
  In this general context of achievement and progress, losses in facilities must not become a negative force. I understand the concern that we should not take more steps backwards than forwards. That is clearly not the case, as the record of provision shows. A recent survey by the Sports Council clearly showed that in all areas losses are well outweighed by gains in facilities.
  No doubt, however, there are losses in particular places that the local community regrets. That is a matter of genuine concern, which I can understand. Some losses are inevitable, as they always have been, when owners, public or private, dispose of land. Land obviously remains a scarce resource in this country. Sometimes it will be used for other pressing local needs—for example, for housing or industry—which my hon. Friend will understand only too well. People need houses in which to live. New units for the new technologies are needed. Progress in this direction is essential.
  Here is another important context for this debate. The Government encourage local authorities to dispose of surpluse land. I am sure my colleagues will agree that that must represent sound financial management. We must all take the broad view of need. Sometimes the urgent requirement locally will be for a use other than recreation. That is inevitable. It is up to the local authority. The House will also be aware that falling school rolls inevitably mean that some schools can shed facilities. Statutory instrument 909 prescribes minimum requirements. We should regard it as a protection rather than as a threat, because for the first time ever it provides minimum requirements. I take my hon. Friend's point about the possibility of a marginal increase in the birth rate in some areas which will affect attendance at certain schools. This is possibly a threat, but we can pursue the matter with the Department of Education and Science and find out what the trend is.
  There are realities that the House will accept, but let us continue to agree about the objectives and concerns in sports provision. My hon. Friend and I can agree about these, as well as about the realities. However, let me come to the question of what actions might be considered to overcome the problem of losses.
  My hon. Friend has suggested in the past, through his recent private Member's Bill, and today that there is a need to centralise control, monitor the loss of sports facilities and introduce new statutory provisions. Is there a need for a new and centralised control? I am bound to wonder
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  whether this is appropriate. The need and demand for any sports facilities can only be assessed locally. Let us look at the existing statutory and local controls to see whether they meet the concern expressed by my hon. Friend.
  There are provisions in the planning Acts which give ample opportunities for organisations and individuals to express views and objections on proposed disposals, or changes of use, of recreational facilities. Local inquiries into planning appeals and applications called in for decision by the Secretary of State are normally held in public, giving a further opportunity for interested organisations and individuals to put their views and objections. In addition, schedule 23 to the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 requires local authorities to publish notice of their intentions to dispose of open space land in the local press for at least two weeks. Local authorities are also required to consider any objections before taking any final decisions. Also, of course, any development of privately owned recreational land requires planning permission and must thus be subject to local scrutiny and objection. That is how the system works.
  My hon. Friend has also proposed that local authorities and other owners of recreational land should be enabled to sell that land to sports organisations at less than the market value. Local authorities are already able to do this, with the Secretary of State's approval, and similar provisions apply to other bodies mentioned in schedule 16 to the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980.
  My hon. Friend has also suggested a need to introduce a new requirement, that an applicant for planning permission shall be obliged to accompany his application with a certificate stating whether the proposed development does or does not involve sports facilities, and, where such facilities are involved, that the applicant should notify the Secretary of State of the application.
  The first of those requirements, which would apparently apply to all planning applications, would further add to the documentation accompanying applications for planning permission, and to that extent would be contrary to the Government's general policy of reducing such documentation to an absolute minimum.
  Moreover, if, as it appears, the essential aim of the proposal is to ensure that all applications involving the development of sports facilities are brought to the attention of the Secretary of State so that he may consider calling them in for his own decision, there are existing powers—in section 25 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 and article 15 of the Town and Country Planning General Development Order 1977—by which that purpose could well be achieved.
  However, it would be most unlikely that there would be an extensive use of the powers of call-in of applications relating to sport and recreation facilities. Under the Town and Country Planning Act 1971, Parliament has entrusted the primary responsibility for the day-to-day control of development to local planning authorities. Therefore, it can only be in the exceptional case, where, for example, matters of more than local importance arise, that the Secretary of State's intervention could be justified.
  Additionally, the Secretary of State already has a power under section 25 of the 1971 Act to prescribe the form of applications for planning permissions.
  Mr. Denis Howell: I am grateful to the Minister for what he has said in the last four or five minutes, because

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  it is of considerable importance. It would help to give confidence to sports bodies if he were able to assure the House that when any contested planning application is being decided in his Department where a sports issue has arisen he will be involved in that decision. If he can tell us that, I am sure that it will go a long way to assist us to accept what he is saying.
  Mr. Macfarlane: Where applications are brought to the attention of my Department and not resolved locally, I involve myself very much in such issues and developments. That is an integral part of my responsibilities in the Department.
  This is a useful debate because it was a pity that technically my hon. Friend's Bill was talked out some months ago. That is a slightly unfair assessment because the Opposition spokesman had only about two minutes on his feet. I do not want the House to be misled. Time was short.
  Somewhere there is a misunderstanding by the CCPR about the application of land registers and the role of the Secretary of State and local authorities. It is important to understand that. The suggestion that the Secretary of State should compile a register is inconsistent with our wish to reduce administrative burdens on local authorities and also with the nature of what is essentially a local matter. I do not want us to compile another central register.
  Land registers exist to promote the better use of land. They are designed to bring to light the unused and under-used land in the ownership of pubic bodies and expose their plans for that land to public debate. Equally, local authorities are required to make the registers available to the general public. My Department has instructed public bodies not to include on the registers
  "land which is both held and used as public open space or for recreation."
  Thus, any playing fields that are recorded are either unused or under-used.
  An instruction also states that land held for future operational needs should be included. Therefore, it does not follow that land on the registers is to be disposed of or lost to sport. I want to make it clear that using the registers as a basis for assessing the loss of pitches is, at best, misleading.
  Already, the Sports Council regional offices are using the copies of the registers at my regional offices to identify sites of odd shapes, sizes or locations which properly command low prices in the general market. I am touched that my hon. Friend referred to my excellent words of 1981 at the CCPR conference, because they get better with the passing of years. One of the better ways to use sporting and recreation organisations is to try to find land which can be used.
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  My hon. Friend raised many matters, including the Olympic games. I shall write to him about aspects with which I cannot deal tonight. We shall have to wait for the feasibility study. I am aware of the limitations and shortages and of what has to be done. We can speculate, but we all know about the gaps in the network of facilities in our major cities. I do not push the interests of any one city, but I am anxious to ensure that the Government work closely with the British Olympic Association. I remain at its disposal when it has completed its feasibility studies.
  Mr. Denis Howell: I understand what the Minister says and I have every confidence in the British Olympic Association. It has to make an assessment of the various cities which have put in a bid and as that involves substantial public investment the Government cannot opt out, even in the early stages, of assisting in the making of that assessment.
  Mr. Macfarlane: The Government are not opting out, nor will they. Some of the right hon. Gentleman's earlier remarks were a little fudged in that because of the passage of time, they did not bear any resemblance to the facts. No guarantee was given that the games would come here in 1988. The selection depends upon many factors. There was no guarantee of a London selection.
  We must examine my hon. Friend's arguments closely. I shall reply later to any points with which I do not deal tonight because the subject is important, although it has been exaggerated in some respects. I do not single out any individual, but we should not deny that substantial progress has been made in recent years. Public, private and voluntary sectors have co-operated to expand local opportunities for sport and recreation. We must continue that progress. In doing so, I agree that we must guard against hurtful losses, especially in sensitive areas.
  This debate is about means and not objectives. It is not for the Secretary of State or me to sit in judgment on local losses of sports fields, except where that is necessary and appropriate through the planning appeal system.
  However, perhaps more locally based machinery of some kind is needed to provide a reliable database of overall provisions which, in turn, might better inform local decisions. I therefore suggested at a meeting that I had in February with the chairman and secretary of the Central Council of Physical Recreation that they get together with the Sports Council to see whether there is a need for, and a means of, better monitoring gains and losses in sports provision in the regions. Something might be done through the Sports Council regional offices, or the regional councils for sport and recreation which already play a vital role locally. Any new proposals will I hope take account of my comments today. I shall keep the House informed.

  Berkshire (Development)
  9.58 pm
  Mr. Andrew MacKay: I appreciate the opportunity to discuss excessive development in Berkshire. I thank my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for his courtesy and understanding, particularly when I led a delegation of constituents to his Ministry recently. I believe that his courtesy was a result not of his being a Berkshire resident, but because he appreciates the problem.
  We in Berkshire who are opposed to excessive development are not Luddites. Over the years we have accepted large scale development with good grace. We are happy to allow modest infilling and further development, such as providing a five-year supply of building land. However, we are no longer asked to provide only that. Our area is one of natural growth and development and because of that the Ministry has decreed that we should find land for 8,000 extra houses in the central Berkshire area.
  Berkshire is a narrow, east-west county. The eastern end, which covers part of my constituency, is within the green belt, so it cannot be developed. At the western end, there is an area of outstanding natural beauty on the downs, which also cannot be developed. Therefore, those 8,000 houses——
  It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Major.]
  Mr. MacKay: Those 8,000 houses have to be crammed into a relatively small area between Reading and Berkshire. The bulk of them will be north of Bracknell, which has been asked to provide 5,150 houses. That will destroy the local village communities—such picturesque villages as Warfield, Binfield, Chevey Down and Winkfield Row will be flooded with new houses. There are no more than 600 or 700 houses in Warfield, but it is expected to provide an additional 3,000 houses.
  We have a responsibility to future generations to preserve these communities and our countryside. The development will take place immediately north of the town of Bracknell, which most independent observers believe is the most successful of our new towns. It has already exceeded its natural level of development and to extend it further would be not only dangerous to the surrounding villages but would do a great harm to Bracknell itself. That is why the campaign against further development has the people of Bracknell shoulder to shoulder with the villagers. They wish to have green fields and open countryside near their new town that they can use and enjoy.
  We do not have the infrastructure to accommodate the new houses, and there is no way that in the foreseeable future funds will be available to provide adequate roads or ample schools and hospitals. Therefore, if we proceed with the new houses there will be terrible bottlenecks on the roads, longer waiting lists in our hospitals and further overcrowding in our schools where the pupil-teacher ratio is already far too high.
  The developers tell us that there is a demand for the houses. I refute that, because there is not a local demand. Anyone visiting Bracknell will see a number of "For Sale" boards, many of which have been erected for many
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  months. There is no shortage of houses for sale or to let. If the new houses are built, they will be purchased mainly by people moving out of London where, mainly under Labour-controlled councils and the GLC, they have suffered high rate increases. They will commute back to London each day on our good rail and motorway links to the capital city.
  We have no objection to commuters living in our county, but it is fair to say that they do not take part in the local community in the same way as established residents. I do not see that the desecration of local communities and the countryside is right simply to provide additional houses for commuters who work in London as opposed to people who work in local industry.
  National issues are also at stake. There is all-party support for the Government's excellent policy for rejuvenating the inner cities. However, that policy will not succeed if developers can build on green field sites in Berkshire and elsewhere instead of utilising inner city sites. I fear that by encouraging developers to move to green field sites, they will not take up the opportunies that the Government are creating by providing land through the register in the inner cities.
  The taxpayers' money and the efforts of the Government—efforts which hon. Members in all parts of the House applaud—to rejuvenate the nation's inner cities will fail or, at best, succeed less than fully, if ample provision is made for houses to be built on green field sites. I assure the Minister, being myself a sometime builder and developer, that developers prefer to build on green field sites than in inner cities, if they have the choice.
  Another important issue is the north-south divide. As an hon. Member who first represented a constituency in the great city of Birmingham and who now represents a seat in the south-east, I perhaps see this more vividly than most.
  We should be encouraging development, employment prospects and industry to set up in those regions of the country where there is genuine unemployment. In my area there is not genuine unemployment. We have an extremely low level of unemployment and I submit that the majority of those who are unemployed in my constituency choose to be out of work, are unemployable or are playing the black economy to the absolute full. That is not true of the midlands and many parts of the north.
  We in the Bracknell district council area have encouraged national and multinational firms to come to Bracknell and we have exclusively reserved our remaining few industrial sites for their future expansion, which has been greatly appreciated. At the same time, we have encouraged those starting up in business to proceed by way of small industrial units. In other words, we have encouraged industry extensively. But now the time has come to say that there are other parts of the country that need industry more than we do, areas whose employment prospects are grim by comparison with ours.
  That was never more clearly illustrated than by the fact that more than 80 of my hon. Friends signed an early-day motion on the subject that I recently sponsored. It objects to excessive development in the south-east and encourages employment in the regions.
  New issues have arisen since I last raised the subject on the Adjournment. Bracknell district council has unanimously passed a resolution condemning massive development and the Government's policy in that respect,

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  and I remind the Minister that that council consists of 40 Conservative councillors with no opposition. In addition, each of the parish councils, where the councillors are either Independent or Conservative, have equally forcefully condemned Conservative Government and previous Labour Government policies of excessive development in the area.
  Companies in Bracknell—many of them large multinationals with names that will be familiar to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker—have all agreed through their trade and commercial organisations that they do not want further development. They say to me, "If we need a highly skilled, high-tech scientist to come to Bracknell, we know that he can find a house, because there are plenty of houses available to purchase. If we want a semi-skilled man to move from the regions to Bracknell, we know that houses are available to rent from the local authority. So there is no shortage of housing to affect our future prosperity as a company. When, however, we are fighting hard to find the right type of highly qualified people to work for us, we must offer an attractive environment, and that means an attractive new town with countryside around it. If you build on that countryside, as the Ministry wants, we shall face great difficulty in persuading people to join our company."
  At the latest election on 2 May, Berkshire bucked the trend, unlike the rest of the country. There had been a hung county council. At the election, substantial Conservative gains were made and the Conservatives took control of Berkshire. I know that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State will agree that that was the exception to the rule on the rather sad evening of 2 May. The reasons for that result were twofold. First, we had known about the hung council and the Lib-Lab pact which had led to a 27 per cent. rate increase—an experience that some of the other county councils will face during the next few months. My electors in Berkshire objected to that. Secondly, there is a majority of eight at shire hall because five Conservative seats were gained in and around Bracknell. The Conservatives who stood as candidates in the wards stood on a staunchly anti-mass development ticket and each signed a declaration that they would do everything legally possible to fight that development at county and national levels. They hit the right note with the electors.
  Berkshire, which was the sole light for the Government on the evening of 2 May, would not have shone so brightly if the Conservatives had not won those five crucial seats that gave us our majority. We won those seats only because of our staunchly anti-development stand. Every group in the constituency—the Tory-controlled Bracknell district council, the Tory and Independent parish councils and all my electors—totally oppose that development.
  My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State must realise that there are not only environmental reasons why the Government must change their decision, or only economic or regional effects that should cause the Government to change their policy of mass development in central Berkshire. There are also good electoral reasons. If we believe in a democracy and elected representatives and if, after winning the county election on this firm ticket, we are stabbed in the back by the Ministry and the Government, I am not sure how we could go again to
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  Berkshire electors with confidence to advise them that a Conservative Government believe in conservation of the environment, in listening to people of individual areas, in employment in the regions and in inner city rejuvenation.
  I make a strong plea to my hon. Friend, who I know is immensely sympathetic, to ask our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Cabinet carefully to reconsider that out-of-date and misconceived policy initiated by the late Anthony Crosland and proceeded with by successive Secretaries of State of both political parties. It is time to rethink and time to change. We are making a grave mistake by proceeding in that way.
  10.15 pm
  The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Neil Macfarlane): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Berkshire, East (Mr. MacKay) for raising the subject of the extent of the problems of housing and development in Berkshire. It is a subject that has taken a great deal of his interest and time since he returned to the House as Member for Berkshire, East. His constituents should be grateful for his endeavours on their behalf. He regularly raises the issue on the Adjournment and at Question Time, and frequently comes to the Department to discuss the matter with my right hon. Friend and myself. He is diligent on his constituents' behalf, which is why I welcome tonight's debate. His constituents will be grateful for the clear and forceful way in which he has put the matter once again.
  The issue is of local interest and anxiety. I have been taking a great interest in the matter and have met delegations led by my hon. Friend and other hon. Members who represent constituencies not far from Berkshire, East. They are equally interested.
  I am conscious that the pressures for development and conservation in the area must be balanced in the interest of prosperity. I shall ensure that I remain fully conversant with the area and its problems as a basis for discharging in due course my responsibilities in respect of development planning.
  I understand that there is widespread local feeling that new housing developments should be contained. For the moment, however, the matter rests largely with the county council as the structure planning authority for the area. Last year, the county council published proposals for a replacement structure plan for the county as a whole to replace the existing structure plans for the west, central and east Berkshire areas. Recently, the county council published a stage 2 consultation document upon which it invited comment before 3 May.
  It is now for the county council to decide what proposals to include in the replacement plan. Only when the replacement plan has been submitted to him will the matter come before my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
  Mr. MacKay rose——
  Mr. Macfarlane: I shall give way to my hon. Friend, and I hope that he will convey to those involved the congratulations of many Conservative Members on the excellent results of 2 May. There are lessons for everyone to be learnt from those results. They show the importance that constituents and ratepayers attach to local plans.
  Mr. MacKay: I shall be delighted to convey my hon. Friend's congratulations. I know that they will be greatly appreciated by my friends and colleagues who have been elected to shire hall.
  On the point about the revision of the structure plans which are being considered by the county council, I believe that the county council would like greatly to reduce the numbers in line with public feelings. At the public meetings, it has been made clear, as I illustrated in my speech and in other conversations with my hon. Friend, that the development is not wanted. If the county council put up good reasons, as I think that I have tonight, to reduce dramatically the number of houses that the Ministry wants, will it be permitted to do that and, if the case is a good one, will it be favourably construed by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
  Mr. Macfarlane: If I may speak for myself and for my right hon. Friend, I hope that all those points will be taken into consideration. We would have to take account of those requests, and clearly we would do so. I cannot give any assurances to my hon. Friend this evening, as he will understand, because we still await a completion of the documentation. I hope that it will be possible for the county council to push ahead with its proposals as quickly as possible and to present them to my Department for comment. Only when that process is brought to a conclusion will the present uncertainty at the rate of development not only in north Bracknell but in central Berkshire as a whole be brought to an end.
  Given that that is the stage reached in revising the structure plans, it is not for me to comment definitively now, as my hon. Friend will understand. However, I am well seized of the anxieties that he has represented and of those of the 10 organisations that he brought to the Department. I thought that the case was presented in a balanced and coherent manner.
  There is concern that the rural character of the area contributes to its economic buoyancy and to the readiness of employment generating activities to locate there. As a matter of general principle, and without in any way seeking to prejudge the issues and arguments relevant to the matter that my hon. Friend has raised, it is important
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  that we should maintain the economic buoyancy of areas that are among the most thriving in the country. I endorse what he said, and I understand his arguments fully.
  In maintaining it, planning authorities and, indeed, my right hon. Friend, will be faced with some hard choices, as they often are at national and local Government levels, in seeking to balance the need for development with the need to preserve the many good features of the areas concerned.
  My hon. Friend has mentioned his doubts about the ability of the local infrastructure to keep up with substantial residential development. That most important fact was brought to my attention by other hon. Members who accompanied my hon. Friend when they came to the Department of the Environment, as was the pace and rate of development of the big cities and small towns in the outlying areas. Those who know the county well understand that. That is a matter of fact and judgment which I have no doubt the county council will seek to establish in the process of producing the replacement structure plan.
  My hon. Friend referred also to the capacity of outstanding planning permissions to accommodate a considerable proportion of extra residential development which builders may seek to promote as they respond to local demand. Again, at present it is for the county council to form the best judgment that it can of the extent to which such consents can cater for the residential growth which it concludes is necessary in the area. It is for the county council to assess as best it can all the different matters such as population trends, household growth, employment, economic activity and so on, as well as the need to safeguard the quality of life in coming to a conclusion as to the proper provision for housing which should be made.
  As I hope my hon. Friend will understand, time does not allow me to develop or to research as thoroughly as I should have liked many points that he raised in his speech. He knows that he can rest assured that we shall do everything that we can to ensure that his constituents can have faith in the workings of local and central Government.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-three minutes past Ten o'clock.