§ Ordered,
That, at this day's sitting, the Health and Social Security Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Sainsbury.]
§ Question again proposed, That the clause be read a Second time.
§ Dr. BoysonPerhaps I may continue into the second house on this. In November 1978, short-term supplementary benefit was £23.25 for a couple. Indexed for inflation, that would have been £41.26 in November 1983. We had in fact increased it to £43.50. The long-term rate was £31.55 in 1978. Indexed for inflation, it would have been £51.55 in 1983, but it was in fact £54.55. No one can say that the Government have done nothing. In tight circumstances, we have done all that we possibly could.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursDoes the Minister agree that one of the justifications for dropping the threshold to the age of 60 was that the Government believed that people over that age were unlikely to find work? Now that there is clear evidence that in many parts of the country people over 50 or 55 are unlikely to find work, should not a similar argument prevail?
§ Dr. BoysonThe hon. Gentleman is quite right. The 60 to 65s were given priority because of their difficulty in finding work. Within the funds available, we made them a priority. I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman on that.
441 In conclusion, priorities must be set within the total £37 billion social security budget, although we are spending 27 per cent. more in real terms than when we came to office. We cannot accept the intention of the new clause. I therefore ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to vote against it.
§ Mrs. BeckettI shall reply briefly to some of the points made by the Minister. As is all too often the case with the Government, the Minister spent a considerable time talking about what happened under the Labour Government, going back even further than usual.
The Minister will not deny that over the years we have sought consistently to improve the social security system. No doubt in later debates today he or his colleagues will put the same argument on other issues, pointing out that the Labour Government did not make such and such an improvement X years ago. He should understand that we made improvements then and we seek further improvements now.
The Minister referred to 1966. He must recognise that under the Government unemployment is unfortunately on a scale not seen in this country for many decades, certainly much further back than 1966. There is also a sense of hopelessness about future employment prospects that this country has not known for a very long time. It is, therefore, somewhat invidious to compare present circumstances with those in 1966.
The Minister pointed our that the Government had increased spending on the overall budget by 27 per cent. in real terms. We recognise that, but we also recognise that that is not because the Government are overflowing with the milk of human kindness, wishing to rush around handing out money right, left and centre, but because, due to the Government's disastrous economic policies, so many people have lost all other means of support and have no choice but to become dependent on social security.
I hope—although I must admit it is a faint hope—that I shall not have to make my next point again tonight. As the Minister knows only too well, the overwhelming differences between the economic difficulties faced by this Government and those faced by the previous Labour Government, and is not only that many of them are of this Government's own making but that throughout their period in office they have enjoyed £10,000 million to £14,000 million per year in income from the North sea. If the Labour Government had enjoyed such an income, and certainly if we had enjoyed such an income before the Prime Minister had had a chance to wreak such damage on the British economy, we would have transformed the social security system, and we would not be facing this debate.
§ Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 48, Noes 165.
443| Division No. 272] | [10.5 pm |
| AYES | |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Beckett, Mrs Margaret | Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'I) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Dewar, Donald |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Dobson, Frank |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y) | Dubs, Alfred |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.) | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Cohen, Harry | Fisher, Mark |
| Corbett, Robin | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Freud, Clement | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| Garrett, W. E. | Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE) |
| Gould, Bryan | Skinner, Dennis |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles) |
| Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Stott, Roger |
| Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall) | Thompson, J. (Wansbeck) |
| Howells, Geraint | Wallace, James |
| Kennedy, Charles | Wareing, Robert |
| Kirkwood, Archibald | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| Marek, Dr John | Wilson, Gordon |
| Meacher, Michael | Winnick, David |
| Meadowcroft, Michael | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) | |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Nellist, David | Mr. Frank Haynes and |
| Pike, Peter | Mr. Jack Dormand. |
| NOES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Grant, Sir Anthony |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Greenway, Harry |
| Amess, David | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Ancram, Michael | Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) |
| Arnold, Tom | Hawkins, C. (High Peak) |
| Ashby, David | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Hickmet, Richard |
| Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) | Hirst, Michael |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Holt, Richard |
| Batiste, Spencer | Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) |
| Bellingham, Henry | Irving, Charles |
| Bendall, Vivian | Jackson, Robert |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Benyon, William | Knight, Mrs Jill (Edgbaston) |
| Berry, Sir Anthony | Lang, Ian |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Lester, Jim |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd) |
| Body, Richard | Lilley, Peter |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Lloyd, Ian (Havant) |
| Bottomley, Peter | Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham) |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n) | Lord, Michael |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Luce, Richard |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | McCurley, Mrs Anna |
| Bright, Graham | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Brinton, Tim | MacGregor, John |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Maclean, David John |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) | Malins, Humfrey |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Marland, Paul |
| Burt, Alistair | Mather, Carol |
| Butterfill, John | Maude, Hon Francis |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Chapman, Sydney | Mayhew, Sir Patrick |
| Chope, Christopher | Mellor, David |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe) | Miller, Hal (B'grove) |
| Cockeram, Eric | Mills, lain (Meriden) |
| Colvin, Michael | Mitchell, David (NW Hants) |
| Conway, Derek | Moynihan, Hon C. |
| Coombs, Simon | Murphy, Christopher |
| Cope, John | Neubert, Michael |
| Couchman, James | Newton, Tony |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Norris, Steven |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Onslow, Cranley |
| Dover, Den | Osborn, Sir John |
| Dunn, Robert | Ottaway, Richard |
| Evennett, David | Page, John (Harrow W) |
| Fallon, Michael | Page, Richard (Herts SW) |
| Favell, Anthony | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Forth, Eric | Powley, John |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Fox, Marcus | Price, Sir David |
| Gale, Roger | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Rhodes James, Robert |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Goodhart, Sir Philip | Robinson, Mark (N'port W) |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Gorst, John | Rowe, Andrew |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Ryder, Richard |
| Sackville, Hon Thomas | Trotter, Neville |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N. | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') | Viggers, Peter |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) | Waddington, David |
| Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Soames, Hon Nicholas | Walden, George |
| Speed, Keith | Waller, Gary |
| Speller, Tony | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Spencer, Derek | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Squire, Robin | Wheeler, John |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Whitfield, John |
| Stern, Michael | Wilkinson, John |
| Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Stevens, Martin (Fulham) | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Stradling Thomas, J. | Wood, Timothy |
| Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) | Woodcock, Michael |
| Thompson, Donald (Calder V) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) | |
| Thorne, Neil (llford S) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Thurnham, Peter | Mr. Douglas Hogg and |
| Tracey, Richard | Mr. John Major. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.