HC Deb 23 March 1983 vol 39 cc897-902

`An approved inspector who gives an initial notice shall until a final notice has been given under section 28 be precluded, either by himself or by an agent, from providing any services or exercising any functions in relation to the work specified in the notice other than the provision of services and the exercise of functions for enforcing the building regulations.'—[Mr. Graham.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Graham

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

New clause 10 is yet another attempt by the Opposition to write on to the face of the Bill words that will make it abundantly clear that there is no dubiety about the independence of approved inspectors.

We have received advice from all quarters about the unease that is and will be felt by the professional bodies involved about the Bill in its present form. The Institute of Building Control Officers, the Society of Chief Building Control Officers, the Association of Metropolitan Authorities, the National and Local Government Officers Association, and a range of architects, surveyors and engineers who, perhaps, in the fullness of time will earn the accolade of "approved inspector", are uneasy. I accept that the Minister and his advisers understand that tests of independence have been set up. Nevertheless, we must be clear that there is complete independence.

We want to ensure that as long as an approved inspector supervises building control regulations on a project—once he has given an initial notice until the final notice has been given under section 28—he shall be precluded, either by himself or by an agency, from providing any service or exercising any function in relation to that work.

We accept that people who are appointed as approved inspectors will be competent men or women. We hope that there will eventually be a system by which approved inspectors will not merely have to have the appropriate letters after their name automatically to qualify as approved inspectors. They should also have additional training. We want a system that ensures that the qualities and character of an approved inspector are what we would like.

In the business world, there is what one might call a close relationship between partnerships of architects, surveyors, engineers and other professionals. We envisage circumstances in which a competent, qualified and honest person carrying out his examination of a project in compliance with the building regulations will have to decide whether to approve, disapprove, stop or start a project when such decisions cut across his professional judgment and may have a direct effect on commercial interests that will be disadvantaged if he acts on them.

That cannot occur under the present system. A building inspector's decision may cut across the best interests of a professional association or body. The independence and integrity of public building inspectors is not challenged as being other than in the best interests of the builder, the developer and the consumer.

When the Minister rejected a similar amendment in Committee, he said that the relationship that we hinted at could not be envisaged for all-time. We have redrawn it simply to say that, as long as an inspector carries out his functions between issuing the initial notice and issuing the final one—that may take six months or two years—he should have no relationship with anyone if that relationship impugns his independence.

The Opposition hope that the Minister will take the intention of the new clause on board. It is intended to make it crystal clear on the face of the Bill that there will be no dubiety about the independence of the inspectors when they undertake their major responsibilities. I strongly hope that the new clause will be accepted.

Sir George Young

The objective of new clause 10 is to ensure that approved inspectors who check designs and supervise construction work act independently and are not engaged in any other capacity on the work in question.

We explained in Committee that we understand and share that objective. I am happy to repeat it. The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Graham) explained his intention. We share it. However, the drafting of the new clause in no way matches the hon. Gentleman's intention, as I shall explain. The Bill already contains the mechanisms that we need to ensure that the certifiers are independent. I hope to convince the House that those mechanisms will be more flexible and reliable than they would be under new clause 10.

The hon. Gentleman wants to prevent the designer from being judge and jury in his own case and does not want someone who has designed a major building or piece of construction work to be entirely and solely responsible for deciding whether it complies with the building regulations. He wants an independent check but the new clause as drafted would not achieve that end. It would exclude a certifier from any other involvement with the project only between the service of the initial notice and the giving of a final certificate. It would not prevent someone who had designed a building from then proceeding to serve an initial notice in respect of it as an approved inspector.

The hon. Gentleman will agree that that is a fundamental defect in the new clause. It would not give him the assurance that he wants. We shall achieve that objective and secure the independence of the certifier through regulations under clause 24 which require an approved inspector who serves an initial notice to declare that he has no involvement in the design of the project, and that he has no connection with it, other than as certifier. The new clause does not do that. Local authorities would be required to reject initial notices which did not contain such a declaration. Further regulations could be made under clause 28 to require final certificates to confirm that the certifier's independence was maintained when he was exercising his functions as an approved inspector. It will, of course, be an offence under clause 34 to make a fake statement in an initial notice of a final certificate.

Proceeding in that way by regulations would not only enable us to establish firm control over the independence of certifiers of major projects; it would enable us to distinguish projects where the independence of the certifier is essential from minor works where it might be reasonable to allow limited self-certification. That idea was advanced in our command paper on the future of building control. In paragraph 28 we suggested that "self-certifiable" categories to be specified in regulations would include single storey house extensions not exceeding 60 metre squared in area; and alterations in low rise houses within the existing envelope; That has been supported by the Royal Institution of British Architects and the Institution of Structural Engineers, who have urged on us the importance of preserving the possibility of limited self-certification. It would be wrong now to close the door on self-certification in those cases. There must be the fullest possible public consultation on the precise limits before regulations are laid. Against that background, I ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his motion.

Mr. Graham

Yet again the Minister asks the House to accept his assurance that all will be well in the prescribed regulations. We are not prepared to accept that assurance. We want those words written into the Bill, and when the matter is put to the vote we shall support it.

It being half-past Five o'clock, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the order [16 February] and the Resolution this day, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 189, Noes 265.

Division No. 98] [5.30 pm
AYES
Abse, Leo Boothroyd, Miss Betty
Allaun, Frank Bottomley, Rt Hon A. (M'b'ro)
Alton, David Bradley, Tom
Anderson, Donald Bray, Dr Jeremy
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Brocklebank-Fowler, C.
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)
Ashton, Joe Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S)
Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Buchan, Norman
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd) Campbell-Savours, Dale
Beith, A. J. Canavan, Dennis
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Cant, R. B.
Bennett, Andrew (St'kp't N) Carmichael, Neil
Bidwell, Sydney Cartwright, John
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) McElhone, Mrs Helen
Clarke, Thomas(C'b'dge, A'rie) McKelvey, William
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) McTaggart, Robert
Cohen, Stanley Marshall, D (G'gow S'ton)
Coleman, Donald Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Crowther, Stan Mason, Rt Hon Roy
Cryer, Bob Maynard, Miss Joan
Cunliffe, Lawrence Meacher, Michael
Cunningham, G. (Islington S) Mikardo, Ian
Dalyell, Tam Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Davidson, Arthur Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) Mitchell, R. C. (Soton Itchen)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)
Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd) Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)
Deakins, Eric Newens, Stanley
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Dewar, Donald Ogden, Eric
Dixon, Donald O'Halloran, Michael
Dobson, Frank O'Neill, Martin
Dormand, Jack Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Douglas, Dick Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Duffy, A. E. P. Park, George
Dunnett, Jack Parker, John
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. Parry, Robert
Eadie, Alex Penhaligon, David
Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Price, C. (Lewisham W)
English, Michael Race, Reg
Ennals, Rt Hon David Richardson, Jo
Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Evans, John (Newton) Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
Ewing, Harry Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Faulds, Andrew Robertson, George
Field, Frank Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)
Flannery, Martin Rooker, J. W.
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Roper, John
Ford, Ben Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Foulkes, George Rowlands, Ted
Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd) Sandelson, Neville
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Sever, John
Freud, Clement Sheerman, Barry
Garrett, John (Norwich S) Sheldon, Rt Hon R.
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Golding, John Short, Mrs Renée
Graham, Ted Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford)
Grimond, Rt Hon J. Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) Silverman, Julius
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Skinner, Dennis
Haynes, Frank Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)
Healey, Rt Hon Denis Soley, Clive
Heffer, Eric S. Spearing, Nigel
Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire) Spellar, John Francis (B'ham)
Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll) Spriggs, Leslie
Home Robertson, John Stallard, A. W.
Hooley, Frank Steel, Rt Hon David
Howell, Rt Hon D. Stoddart, David
Hoyle, Douglas Strang, Gavin
Huckfield, Les Straw, Jack
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
Hughes, Simon (Bermondsey) Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)
Janner, Hon Greville Tilley, John
Jay, Rt Hon Douglas Torney, Tom
Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Hillh'd) Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
John, Brynmor Wainwright, E.(Dearne V)
Johnson, Walter (Derby S) Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster)
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Warden, Gareth
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Welsh, Michael
Kerr, Russell White, Frank R.
Kilroy-Silk, Robert White, J. (G'gow Pollok)
Kinnock, Neil Whitlock, William
Lambie, David Wigley, Dafydd
Lamond, James Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Leighton, Ronald Williams, Rt Hon A.(S'sea W)
Lestor, Miss Joan Wilson, Rt Hon Sir H.(H'ton)
Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW) Wilson, William (C'try SE)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Winnick, David
Litherland, Robert Woodall, Alec
McDonald, Dr Oonagh Wright, Sheila
Young, David (Bolton E) Mr. James Hamilton and
Mr. George Morton.
Tellers for the Ayes:
NOES
Alexander, Richard Fowler, Rt Hon Norman
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh
Ancram, Michael Fraser, Peter (South Angus)
Arnold, Tom Fry, Peter
Aspinwall, Jack Gardiner, George (Reigate)
Atkins, Rt Hon H.(S'thorne) Gardner, Sir Edward
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) Garel-Jones, Tristan
Banks, Robert Glyn, Dr Alan
Bendall, Vivian Goodhart, Sir Philip
Benyon, Thomas (A'don) Goodlad, Alastair
Benyon, W. (Buckingham) Gower, Sir Raymond
Berry, Hon Anthony Gray, Rt Hon Hamish
Best, Keith Greenway, Harry
Bevan, David Gilroy Griffiths, E.(B'y St. Edm'ds)
Biffen, Rt Hon John Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N)
Biggs-Davison, Sir John Grist, Ian
Blackburn, John Grylls, Michael
Body, Richard Gummer, John Selwyn
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) Hampson, Dr Keith
Bowden, Andrew Hannam, John
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Haselhurst, Alan
Braine, Sir Bernard Hastings, Stephen
Bright, Graham Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael
Brinton, Tim Hawkins, Sir Paul
Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon Hayhoe, Barney
Brooke, Hon Peter Heddle, John
Brotherton, Michael Henderson, Barry
Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n) Hicks, Robert
Bruce-Gardyne, John Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Bryan, Sir Paul Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
Buchanan-Smith, Rt. Hon. A. Holland, Philip (Carlton)
Budgen, Nick Hooson, Tom
Burden, Sir Frederick Hordern, Peter
Butcher, John Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldf'd)
Carlisle, John (Luton West) Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Hunt, David (Wirral)
Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n) Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
Chalker, Mrs. Lynda Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Chapman, Sydney Irvine, RtHon Bryant Godman
Churchill, W. S. Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)
Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) Kaberry, Sir Donald
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine
Clegg, Sir Walter Kershaw, Sir Anthony
Cockeram, Eric Kimball, Sir Marcus
Colvin, Michael King, Rt Hon Tom
Cope, John Kitson, Sir Timothy
Cormack, Patrick Knight, Mrs Jill
Corrie, John Knox, David
Costain, Sir Albert Lang, Ian
Cranbome, Viscount Langford-Holt, Sir John
Critchley, Julian Latham, Michael
Crouch, David Lawrence, Ivan
Dickens, Geoffrey Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel
Dorrell, Stephen Lee, John
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. Le Merchant, Spencer
du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Dunn, Robert (Dartford) Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Durant, Tony Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Rutland)
Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo)
Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) Loveridge, John
Eggar, Tim Luce, Richard
Emery, Sir Peter Lyell, Nicholas
Eyre, Reginald McCrindle, Robert
Fairbairn, Nicholas Macfarlane, Neil
Faith, Mrs Sheila MacGregor, John
Farr, John MacKay, John (Argyll)
Fenner, Mrs Peggy Macmillan, Rt Hon M.
Finsberg, Geoffrey McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)
Fisher, Sir Nigel McNair-Wilson, P, (New F'st)
Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N) McQuarrie, Albert
Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles Major, John
Fookes, Miss Janet Marland, Paul
Forman, Nigel Marlow, Antony
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Mates, Michael Shelton, William (Streatham)
Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Mawby, Ray Shepherd, Richard
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Silvester, Fred
Mayhew, Patrick Sims, Roger
Mellor, David Skeet, T. H. H.
Meyer, Sir Anthony Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Miller, Hal (B'grove) Speed, Keith
Mills, Iain (Meriden) Speller, Tony
Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) Spence, John
Miscampbell, Norman Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)
Moate, Roger Sproat, Iain
Monro, Sir Hector Squire, Robin
Montgomery, Fergus Stainton, Keith
Moore, John Stanbrook, Ivor
Morgan, Geraint Stanley, John
Morris, M. (N'hampton S) Steen, Anthony
Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) Stevens, Martin
Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) Stewart, A.(E Renfrewshire)
Mudd, David Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Murphy, Christopher Stokes, John
Myles, David Stradling Thomas, J.
Neale, Gerrard Tapsell, Peter
Needham, Richard Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Nelson, Anthony Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman
Neubert, Michael Temple-Morris, Peter
Newton, Tony Thompson, Donald
Nott, Rt Hon Sir John Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S. Thornton, Malcolm
Osborn, John Townend, John (Bridlington)
Page, John (Harrow, West) Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)
Page, Richard (SW Herts) van Straubenzee, Sir W.
Parris, Matthew Viggers, Peter
Patten, Christopher (Bath) Wakeham, John
Pattie, Geoffrey Waldegrave, Hon William
Pawsey, James Walker, Rt Hon P.(W'cester)
Percival, Sir Ian Walker, B. (Perth)
Pink, R. Bonner Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.
Pollock, Alexander Wall, Sir Patrick
Porter, Barry Waller, Gary
Prentice, Rt Hon Reg Walters, Dennis
Price, Sir David (Eastleigh) Ward, John
Prior, Rt Hon James Warren, Kenneth
Proctor, K. Harvey Watson, John
Rathbone, Tim Wells, Bowen
Rees-Davies, W. R. Wheeler, John
Renton, Tim Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
Rhodes James, Robert Whitney, Raymond
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Wiggin, Jerry
Ridley, Hon Nicholas Williams, D.(Montgomery)
Ridsdale, Sir Julian Winterton, Nicholas
Rifkind, Malcolm Wolfson, Mark
Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Young, Sir George (Acton)
Rossi, Hugh Younger, Rt Hon George
Rost, Peter
Royle, Sir Anthony Tellers for the Noes:
Rumbold, Mrs A. C. R. Mr. Carol Mather and
Sainsbury, Hon Timothy Mr. Robert Boscawen.
Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

Question accordingly negatived.

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER then proceeded, to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at half-past Five o'clock.

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