§ Question again proposed.
Mr. EdwardsAt the outset of the debate, the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) accused us of introducing a centralised regime and criticised us more than once for controlling public spending. That was not the kind of argument that he used to advance from the Dispatch Box when speaking as a junior Treasury Minister.
The right hon. Gentleman asked when I would announce our provisional decision on next year's local authority expenditure. As I told him in an intervention, I hope to do so next week, but when I met the local authorities a few days ago I undertook to consider their representations closely. We have not yet taken final decisions, but it would be wrong to keep them in uncertainty and to delay announcing these provisional decisions because the House has risen for the summer recess. There are plenty of precedents for making announcements of this kind at this time of year.
The right hon. Gentleman said that the complicated system with which we are involved was job creation for civil servants. However complex it may be, the Government have succeeded in reducing their manpower over the last four years—;the Welsh Office by about 15 per cent.—;whereas local authorities have reduced theirs by only about 3½ per cent. Everyone knows the absurdity of the proposition that there is no room for improved efficiency. People in the private sector and many in the public sector have shown that it is po3sible to maintain services and to reduce manpower. That point was rightly made by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Hooson).
My hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Howells) spoke of the inadequate provision for sparsity and the poor treatment of rural areas, but the hon. Member for Neath took the view that there was overprovision for the rural areas and that the industrial areas had been hard done by. I suspect that this is some evidence that the formula arrived at by the local authority working party in consultation with the Welsh Office was sensible.
I forecast that we would hear complaints about savage cuts, and we heard them from the hon. Member for Newport, East. He wanted to know whether, if his local authority got within its target, it would avoid penalty. It will, but the hon. Gentleman really asked whether getting below GRE would mean that it avoided penalty. I must make it perfectly clear that that is not so. Indeed, if the local authority spends above target, it will not benefit from the close-ending provisions about which I spoke in my opening remarks. That is why a relatively small overspend on target can involve a reduction of grant, because the overspend falls on those authorities above target while those below target are exempt.
The hon. Members for Newport, East, Ceredigion and Pembroke, North and Wrexham (Dr. Marek) asked why there was no exemption from grant penalties for authorities 1146 whose expenditure was below GRE. Many authorities provide a standard of service satisfactory to their electors when spending below GRE. Indeed, before the GRE system was introduced they never questioned whether the level of spending was reasonable. It was simply what they thought right for their areas. I do not think that it would be possible, except at the expense of seeking unrealistic expenditure reductions from other authorities, to allow such authorities disproportionately to increase expenditure. Authorities spending below GRE, however, unlike the high spenders above the GRE, receive the maximum cash input and are thus in a position to allow a modest growth in expenditure.
The hon. Member for Wrexham suggested that certain alterations should be made in the target system. When I asked the local authorities about this last week, however, they made it plain that they did not wish to operate targets at all but that if targets had to be operated the existing formula should be retained and not altered. I was prepared to consider alterations, but the authorities' answer to the specific question was quite clear.
My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, NorthWest (Sir A. Meyer) said that we had failed to grasp the nettle of rate reform. That is fair enough, but I note that he did not suggest any alternative system. As he knows, that is the problem that has dogged successive Governments. Nevertheless, he was absolutely right in saying that the bulk of the money for local government comes from the taxpayers and that there must be some limit. We are setting a limit and seeking to ensure that it is maintained.
The hon. Member for Cerdigion and Pembroke, North asked about provision for the elderly and the young. Those decisions are for local authorities to take within the total expenditure provision for local government. It is accepted that there will be increased expenditure on the police, but that will be offset in areas such as education where pupil numbers are falling and expenditure can be reduced. Local authorities will not, however, be penalised for the recent police pay award. Future rate support grant reports will allow for that increase.
The hon. Gentleman referred to employment prospects for the young. As I have said, employment prospects depend crucially on lowering costs, keeping interest rates down and reducing the rate burden. That is one of the principal objectives of the report before the House, and that is why I ask the House to support it.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§
Resolved,
That the Welsh Rate Support Grant Supplementary (No. 3) Report 1981/82 (House of Commons Paper No. 12), which was laid before this House on 7th July, be approved.
§
Question put,
That the Welsh Rate Support Grant Supplementary Report 1983/84 (House of Commons Paper No. 11), which was laid before this House on 7th July, be approved.—;[Mr. Nicholas Edwards.]
§ The House divided: Ayes 288, Noes 171.
1149| Division No. 42] | [10.8 pm |
| AYES | |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) |
| Alexander, Richard | Baldry, Anthony |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Batiste, Spencer |
| Amess, David | Beaumont-Dark, Anthony |
| Arnold, Tom | Bellingham, Henry |
| Ashby, David | Bendall, Vivian |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. | Benyon, William |
| Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) | Berry, Sir Anthony |
| Best, Keith | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Hargreaves, Kenneth |
| Blackburn, John | Harris, David |
| Body, Richard | Harvey, Robert |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael |
| Bottomley, Peter | Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk) |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Hawksley, Warren |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Hayward, Robert |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Heddle, John |
| Bright, Graham | Henderson, Barry |
| Brinton, Tim | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) | Hickmet, Richard |
| Bruinvels, Peter | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Hill, James |
| Budgen, Nick | Hirst, Michael |
| Burt, Alistair | Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) |
| Butterfill, John | Holt, Richard |
| Carlisle, John (N Luton) | Hooson, Tom |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Howard, Michael |
| Carttiss, Michael | Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A) |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) |
| Chope, Christopher | Hubbard-Miles, Peter |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n) | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Hunter, Andrew |
| Clarke Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Jessel, Toby |
| Cockeram, Eric | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Colvin, Michael | Jones, Robert (W Herts) |
| Conway, Derek | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith |
| Coombs, Simon | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine |
| Cope, John | Kershaw, Sir Anthony |
| Cormack, Patrick | Key, Robert |
| Couchman, James | Kilfedder, James A. |
| Cranborne, Viscount | King, Roger (B'ham N'field) |
| Crouch, David | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Knight, Gregory (Derby N) |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Knowles, Michael |
| Dicks, T. | Knox, David |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Lang, Ian |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | Latham, Michael |
| Dover, Denshore | Lawler, Geoffrey |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Dunn, Robert | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Durant, Tony | Lee, John (Pendle) |
| Dykes, Hugh | Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) |
| Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Eggar, Tim | Lester, Jim |
| Evennett, David | Lewis, Sir Kenneth (Stamf'd) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Lightbown, David |
| Fallon, Michael | Lloyd, Ian (Havant) |
| Farr, John | Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham) |
| Favell, Anthony | Lord, Michael |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | McCrindle, Robert |
| Forth, Eric | McCurley, Mrs Anna |
| Franks, Cecil | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh | MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) |
| Fraser, Peter (Angus East) | MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) |
| Fry, Peter | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. |
| Gale, Roger | McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) |
| Galley, Roy | McQuarrie, Albert |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Madel, David |
| Gow, Ian | Major, John |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Malins, Humfrey |
| Grant, Sir Anthony | Malone, Gerald |
| Greenway, Harry | Maples, John |
| Gregory, Conal | Marland, Paul |
| Griffiths, E. (B'y St Edm'ds) | Marlow, Antony |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Grist, Ian | Mates, Michael |
| Ground, Patrick | Mather, Carol |
| Gummer, John Selwyn | Maude, Francis |
| Hamilton, Hon A. (Epsom) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Mayhew, Sir Patrick | St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N. |
| Mellor, David | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Merchant, Piers | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) | Silvester, Fred |
| Mitchell, David (NW Hants) | Sims, Roger |
| Moate, Roger | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Morris, M. (N'hampton, S) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Soames, Hon Nicholas |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Spence, John |
| Moynihan, Hon C. | Spencer, D. |
| Mudd, David | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Murphy, Christopher | Squire, Robin |
| Neale, Gerrard | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Needham, Richard | Stern, Michael |
| Neubert, Michael | Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) |
| Newton, Tony | Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Stokes, John |
| Normanton, Tom | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Norris, Steven | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Onslow, Cranley | Terlezki, Stefan |
| Osborn, Sir John | Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. |
| Ottaway, Richard | Thompson, Donald (Calder V) |
| Page, John (Harrow W) | Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) |
| Page, Richard (Herts SW) | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Parris, Matthew | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Patten, John (Oxford) | Tracey, Richard |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Trippier, David |
| Pawsey, James | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Waddington, David |
| Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Pink, R. Bonner | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Pollock, Alexander | Walker, Bill (T'side N) |
| Powley, John | Waller, Gary |
| Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Ward, John |
| Price, Sir David | Wardle, C. (Bexhill) |
| Raffan, Keith | Warren, Kenneth |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Wells, Bowen (Hertford) |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Wheeler, John |
| Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas | Wilkinson, John |
| Ridsdale, Sir Julian | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Robinson, Mark (N'port W) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Roe, Mrs Marion | Wood, Timothy |
| Rossi, Sir Hugh | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Rowe, Andrew | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Rumbold, Mrs Angela | |
| Ryder, Richard | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Sackville, Hon Thomas | Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones and |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | Mr. Douglas Hogg. |
| NOES | |
| Abse, Leo | Bruce, Malcolm |
| Alton, David | Buchan, Norman |
| Anderson, Donald | Caborn, Richard |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Callaghan, Rt Hon J. |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Campbell, Ian |
| Ashton, Joe | Carlisle, Alexander (Montg'y) |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Clark, Dr David (S Shields) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Clarke, Thomas |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Clay, Robert |
| Barnett, Guy | Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.) |
| Barron, Kevin | Cohen, Harry |
| Beckett, Mrs Margaret | Coleman, Donald |
| Beith, A. J. | Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. |
| Bell, Stuart | Conlan, Bernard |
| Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) | Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Corbett, Robin |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Blair, Anthony | Cowans, Harry |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Craigen, J. M. |
| Boyes, Roland | Dalyell, Tam |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) |
| Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E) | Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) |
| Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) | Deakins, Eric |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Dewar, Donald |
| Dixon, Donald | Madden, Max |
| Dobson, Frank | Marek, Dr John |
| Dormand, Jack | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Maxton, John |
| Eadie, Alex | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Eastham, Ken | Meadowcroft, Michael |
| Evans, loan (Cynon Valley) | Michie, William |
| Evans, John (St. Helens N) | Mikardo, Ian |
| Ewing, Harry | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Fatchett, Derek | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) | Nellist, David |
| Fisher, Mark | O'Brien, William |
| Flannery, Martin | O'Neill, Matin |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Park, George |
| Forrester, John | Parry, Robert |
| Foster, Derek | Patchett, Terry |
| Fraser, J. (Norwood) | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Penhaligon, David |
| Garrett, W. E. | Pike, Peter |
| Godman, Dr Norman | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Gould, Bryan | Prescott, John |
| Gourlay, Harry | Radice, Giles |
| Hamilton, James (M'well N) | Redmond, M. |
| Hardy, Peter | Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S) |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | Richardson, Ms Jo |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Rogers, Allan |
| Holland, Stuart (Vauxhall) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Home Robertson, John | Ross, Ernest (Dundee W) |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Howells, Geraint | Rowlands, [...]ed |
| Hoyle, Douglas | Ryman, John |
| Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport East) | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Short, Mrs R.(W'hampt'n NE) |
| John, Brynmor | Skinner, Dennis |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) | Smith, C.(lsl'ton S & F'bury) |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Soley, Clive |
| Kennedy, Charles | Spearing, Nigel |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Straw, Jack |
| Lamond, James | Thompson, J. (Wansbeck) |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Thorne, Stan (Preston) |
| Leighton, Ronald | Tinn, James |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Lewis, Terence (Worsley) | Wainwright, R. |
| Litherland, Robert | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Welsh, Michael |
| Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Loyden, Edward | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| McCartney, Hugh | Winnick, David |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Woodall, Alec |
| McGuire, Michael | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| McKelvey, William | |
| Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Tellers for the Noes: |
| McNamara, Kevin | Dr. Roger Thomas and |
| McTaggart, Robert | Mr. Frank Haynes. |
| McWilliam, John |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.