HC Deb 13 December 1983 vol 50 cc918-31 9.35 pm
The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Mrs. Lynda Chalker)

It has been an interesting and highly predictable debate. Before I deal with detailed points, there is one thing we should get clear about London's public transport. By anybody's standards it is a very big business. It has an annual turnover of £850 million. Only 24 private companies in the United Kingdom employ more staff than London Transport. That is why the Bill, as my right hon. Friend has made clear, starts from the view that running an enterprise as large and as complicated as this requires, first and foremost, management skills of the highest order. We cannot expect to find or to retain such skills if they are constantly to be subject to political and bureaucratic interference. It is to get away from the day-to-clay interference that the Bill proposes to take the responsibility from the GLC, which daily spends more and more ratepayers' money on expensive documents like "Kill the Bill" produced at ratepayers' expense to try to hide what it is really after — to avert its own abolition by a different piece of legislation.

It is no good if accountability of any public body is clouded by divisions of responsibility between endless committees and line management itself. We brought forward the Bill because we are set on simplification. We will have proper and adequate safeguards, but until we leave the managers of London's public transport free to take the management decisions on their own we will never improve the standard for the traveller in London. That is what we intend to do through the Bill.

There are no complications in the Bill of new supervising authorities or watchdog bodies. I shall come back to this in a few minutes. We must have a structure which will develop under the powers of the Bill to meet the needs of the traveller in London, but it must have the object of maintaining clear lines of accountability within the broad objective that London Regional Transport will be set by my right hon. Friend.

The Bill caters for change and development. It will create new services where these are needed by passengers and encourage new forms of interchange between different modes of transport—coach to rail, underground to bus and even perhaps new passenger services on the river— but it is an approach which is simple and above all practicable and workable.

The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape), who described my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Baldry) in various chocolate terms, is more like a well-known mint. He has a very firm exterior, but there is an awful lot of air in the middle. That is exactly what we had this evening.

The hon. Member was very concerned about investment, as are we. Under the Bill, London Regional Transport will continue to receive grants for revenue support for depreciation and renewal and for capital investment, as it does now, but it will at last have the chance to borrow on short-term for overdrafts for its own cash flow and long-term for more profitable capital investment. There is no limit on grant in the Bill, because there is no need to provide a special opportunity to debate London Transport finances. We shall have an annual negative order on the ratepayer contribution which can be debated in the House.

The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East said that there was a limit on borrowing in the Bill. There is a £100 million limit but that can be raised by order, and a £100 million limit ought to be enough to last London Transport for some years.

We heard a lot from various hon. Members about democracy and accountability. First, we should look at what is proposed in the Bill. I got the feeling that many hon. Members have not done so, particularly some of those who made some extravagant claims about what now takes place under the GLC. The Bill gives London Regional Transport specific duties, including the preparation of plans on which there should be full consultations with local authorities and the users' consultative committee. It creates a clear and accountable financial regime. As a result, there will be proper transparency of cost, something we have not had in the past. The Bill also requires annual reports on how LRT's performance has measured up to the plans.

Secondly, we shall establish a powerful new watchdog committee — a single committee — to look after the interests of consumers. There is no question but that this committee will clearly scrutinise the way in which customers' needs have been met on London Regional Transport and British Rail alike.

Thirdly, there is accountability to this House. Some Labour Members have argued that the present accountability of the GLC is satisfactory.

Mr. Tony Banks

Through the ballot box.

Mrs. Chalker

I should point out to the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks), who was shouting in his normal way, that the ratepayers who finance the bulk of what the GLC spends have no vote in local elections. They provide London's jobs. In fact, the non-domestic ratepayer provides more than 62 per cent. of London's rates. In addition, London's visitors and commuters are in no way represented by the GLC. That is why I and the Government believe that GLC decisions should be patently clear and should not, as at present, be taken in a closed party caucus.

Mr. Prescott

What is the Cabinet?

Mrs. Chalker

Time and again, opposition councillors do not see papers until late in the day, if they see them at all, and time and again public transport expenditure in London has never been properly revealed, least of all to that 62 per cent.

Mr. Simon Hughes

rose——

Mr. Spearing

rose——

Mrs. Chalker

I cannot give way, as I have only a short time in which to reply.

The packing of the LT board has been designed to blur the facts and suppress the options. That, among other things, has above all shown how unfit the GLC has become to run London Transport.

By contrast, the Secretary of State will set out clearly and publicly the objectives and principles for LRT. He is required to do so by the Bill. LRT policies will be debated in this House, and the amount of subsidy will be clearly stated and debated annually. Those are all aspects of accountability against which the Opposition have no reason to argue, however much they may try.

Mr. Spearing

Will the hon. Lady give way on the question of accountability?

Mrs. Chalker

I very much regret having to say that I cannot do so at present.

There has been much interest in the new consumer body. A number of questions have been asked about it, and I wish to place something clearly on the record. When my right hon. Friend mentioned the proposed new arrangements for consumer representation, he said that the proposals for a merger originated with the consumer bodies. I am grateful to those bodies that we met, and we are now able to give the London Regional Passengers' Committee an important status in the Bill.

The London Transport Users' Consultative Committee wrote a letter only today saying how encouraged it is by our proposals. There has also been a welcome by the London Transport Passengers' Committee, the present London Transport consultative committee. The London Regional Passengers' Committee in future—the single consumer body—will be consulted on London Regional Transport policy statements under clause 7 of the Bill and informed about current plans under clause 29. The arrangements mirror one of the Bill's main objectives, which is to achieve liaison between British Rail and LRT, which the passengers of London not only want and need but deserve.

Fares were mentioned by several hon. Members. The role of the new consumer body in relation to fares is important. At present consumer bodies dealing with transport — the Central Transport Consultative Committee, the area transport users' consultative committees, and, in London, the LTPC—all have fares and charges specifically excluded from their statutory remit. In December last year the Government published a document called The Nationalised Industry Consumer Councils: A Strategy for Reform". In the document we said that we were considering whether that exclusion should continue.

We gave careful consideration during the preparation of the Bill first to the general principle and second to the possible use of the Bill as a vehicle in which to incorporate any change to the existing law in this respect. The general principle is that the industries must work to the financial objectives set by Government and determine the level of fares without being subject to specific directions. However, we accept that within that framework there is a role for the consumer bodies in relation to the structure and relativities of fares.

On the second point, it would not be appropriate to make such a change in a Bill the scope of which is limited to the London region. However, the Government intend to deal with the matter on the above lines if and when a suitable legislative opportunity arises.

Meanwhile, I am glad to say that the chairman of British Rail, Mr. Bob Reid, has agreed that his board will consult both the Central Transport Consultative Committee and the new London Regional Passengers' Committee about fares and charges on an informal basis, in advance of any new legislation. I am sure that the board of LRT, when appointed, will agree to do the same thing in relation to the LRPC. I hope that when hon. Members read what I have said about fares, they will understand the depth of what I have said.

Mr. Prescott

The Minister of State will be aware of the brief that was sent to every hon. Member from the National Consumer Council, which says that in the Bill the LRPC lacks rights to consultation and to access to the information essential for the effective representation of passengers' interests. That is missing from the Bill.

Mrs. Chalker

That is the reason why I said what I did about fares just now. If the hon. Gentleman reviews what I said when he reads Hansard, he will understand its import. We have taken the advice of the TUCC for London and the LTPC. We got them together, which was the first change from the White Paper to the Bill. We are seeking at least to give them some access to discussions on an informal basis until such legislation is passed.

Mr. Prescott

So the Bill is like a mark 3 Bill.

Mrs. Chalker

It is in no way a mark 3 Bill. A House of Commons that refused to amend a Bill would not be doing the best thing and listening to other people.

In the debate we heard that there is a banner at County Hall across the river. I have not yet seen it. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) said that 90 per cent. of 562 people who were asked felt that the GLC should carry on being responsible for London Transport. The hon. Gentleman might remember that I am a statistician. I worked for 13 years in market research. It is interesting that only 562 people were interviewed. I should like to know where they were interviewed in their quota sample and what questions they were asked. I bet the hon. Gentleman a small amount of money that if he and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State were asked, "Would you like fares to be kept down?" they would both answer, "Yes". Of course, much of a sample such as that depends on the question that is asked.

Mr. Prescott

If the hon. Lady cannot accept that poll, will she at least accept the verdict of the GLC election when that transport policy was put to the London electorate and it voted overwhelmingly in favour of it?

Mrs. Chalker

I seem to remember that when the Labour party went into the GLC election in 1981 it was under a quite different leadership and had a different manifesto. A great deal has changed in Greater London because of that.

The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East asked me to explain some of the figures about ratepayer contributions that he handed to the Secretary of State. Many figures have been bandied about. I hope that he will listen closely as the subject is complicated. He might remember that, last autumn, the GLC claimed in press advertisements — which again were paid for by ratepayers, of course—that only 3 per cent. of London Transport's costs were provided by the taxpayer. In January this year it used a combination of assumptions to claim that the ratepayer contribution for 1983–84 would be more than 90 per cent. It has now used a different set of calculations to arrive at a ratepayer contribution of 62 per cent.

I could show the House, by using equally judicious methods and assumptions, that the ratepayer contribution is more than 100 per cent. by taking hold-back and taper into account. I do not wish to puzzle the hon. Gentleman any more. Nevertheless, I do not doubt that he will want to delve into this matter in Committee. We have examined the figures in some detail and made calculations. I do not wish to mislead anyone, least of all the House, by attaching too much weight to the calculations which the hon. Gentleman mentioned or the ones that I am about to mention. However, in 1983–84 the GLC budgeted to spend £235 million on revenue support and £155 million on capital grant. That represents a total of £390 million. On the neutral assumption of attributing transport supplementary grant pro rata to accepted expenditure, the Government provided £104 million of that grant. That represented 27 per cent. of the GLC's support to the London Transport Executive. On that basis the ratepayer contribution is 73 per cent. That is precisely why my right hon. Friend said that by having a maximum of two thirds set in the Bill ratepayers will be better off.

Our main objective has been to achieve progressive reduction of costs and the associated level of subsidy. There is nothing sacrosanct about the two thirds maximum and I hope that there will be scope for reducing it if all goes well.

I was also asked for a simple explanation of protected expenditure levels. That is not the easiest thing to do in the time that is available to me. I shall simply say that we are quite confident that setting the figure which was announced last week will not necessitate substantial fares increases in 1984–85, provided that nothing is done to add to the costs which are borne by the London Transport Executive or to squander the savings which the executive expects to achieve in 1983–84. That is the substance of the press release which London Transport has released this evening.

Concessionary fares are a vexed issue. It is typical of the GLC and its supporters that they continue to arouse needless anxiety about something that is not directly affected by the Bill. I should like to make it clear once again that the Bill merely maintains the powers of the GLC and the boroughs to fund concessionary fares on any operator's services. After the abolition of the GLC in more than two years' time, concessionary fares will be a matter for the boroughs. The London Boroughs Association has already agreed that the boroughs should assume responsibility for concessionary fares on the basis of the existing scheme. I see no reason why any pensioners should be alarmed by the GLC's scare stories, although in all probability such is the extent of the GLC's advertising that many will be worried needlessly. Only a few months ago we heard that it was not possible for the boroughs to get together as to the funding of voluntary organisations. but they have now got together voluntarily to discuss that subject. From my conversations with leaders of different London boroughs and the leader of the LBA, I have no doubt that they will get together to produce a workable scheme to maintain concessionary fares—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East can shout all he likes. The London boroughs must themselves decide the scheme. The pensioners of London need a workable scheme which can benefit those who need the concessions.

As hon. Members know, I take a special interest in services for the disabled. The funding and accountability for the costs of special services such as "dial-a-ride", subsidised taxis and the concessions on buses and tubes must be left with the local authorities. I understand the great anxiety faced by many disabled people as to the future provisions to meet their special needs. I give the House the assurance that we shall consider carefully their needs. I shall shortly be meeting the Federation of London Dial-a-Rides, the Joint Committee on Mobility of the Disabled and the Greater London Association of Disabled People to seek their views.

Among the principles which we will require LRT to work to will be for it constantly to improve the design and facility not only for the disabled but for all those with problems using conventional public transport—the frail, elderly, those with shopping, small children and so forth.

The hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) took us back to 1933. I examined the proposals of the Labour Government of 1929, who set up the London Passenger Transport Act 1933 which was taken over by the national Government in 1933. It is interesting to note that all of the proposals accepted in the House were based on four points, first, unification under public control; secondly, management by a non-political body; thirdly, participation by the main line railway without transfer of ownership, and, fourthly, a self-supporting and subsidised system to be run commercially. We differ only on the fourth point, in that we believe that subsidy is needed to maintain services.

Mr. Spearing

rose——

Mrs. Chalker

I shall write to the hon. Members to whom I am unable to reply or I shall deal with their questions in Committee.

portThe bus licensing provision of the Bill enables us to bring flexibility into the provision of services which we have hitherto not had in the capital city. Many areas of the capital city are not served as they deserve by some form of transport, as has been mentioned by many of my hon. Friends. We shall use the Bill to improve the position.

Opposition Members have accused the Government of making a politically motivated attack on the GLC. I assure the House that the decision to create London Regional Transport was independent of the Government's decision to abolish the GLC. We would have proceeded with the Bill in any event. The Bill, above all, seeks to apply modern management and commercial disciplines to the provision of public transport in London. In this way, the huge experience and expertise that London Transport has accumulated can be harnessed to provide improved standards and better services for London's travellers, free from the day-to-day increasing political interference as seen in the past few months. It provides a coherent and constructive plan to take public transport in the nation's capital well into the next century. It also gives a clear and accountable remit to the business men who will be appointed to the board of LRT to carry out compatible financing for London Transport and British Rail.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 341, Noes 196.

Division No. 94] [10 pm
AYES
Adley, Robert Dorrell, Stephen
Aitken, Jonathan Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.
Alexander, Richard du Cann, Rt Hon Edward
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Dunn, Robert
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Durant, Tony
Amess, David Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)
Ancram, Michael Eggar, Tim
Arnold, Tom Emery, Sir Peter
Ashby, David Evennett, David
Aspinwall, Jack Eyre, Reginald
Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. Fairbairn, Nicholas
Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) Farr, John
Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) Favell, Anthony
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) Fenner, Mrs Peggy
Baldry, Anthony Finsberg, Geoffrey
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Fletcher, Alexander
Batiste, Spencer Fookes, Miss Janet
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Forman, Nigel
Bellingham, Henry Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Bendall, Vivian Fowler, Rt Hon Norman
Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) Fox, Marcus
Berry, Sir Anthony Fraser, Peter (Angus East)
Best, Keith Freeman, Roger
Biffen, Rt Hon John Fry, Peter
Biggs-Davison, Sir John Gale, Roger
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter Galley, Roy
Body, Richard Gardiner, George (Reigate)
Bottomley, Peter Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde)
Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n) Garel-Jones, Tristan
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Glyn, Dr Alan
Braine, Sir Bernard Goodhart, Sir Philip
Brandon-Bravo, Martin Goodlad, Alastair
Bright, Graham Gorst, John
Brinton, Tim Gow, Ian
Brittan, Rt Hon Leon Gower, Sir Raymond
Brooke, Hon Peter Grant, Sir Anthony
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) Greenway, Harry
Browne, John Griffiths, E. (B'y St Edm"ds)
Bruinvels, Peter Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N)
Bryan, Sir Paul Grist, Ian
Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A. Ground, Patrick
Buck, Sir Antony Grylls, Michael
Budgen, Nick Gummer, John Selwyn
Bulmer, Esmond Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Burt, Alistair Hampson, Dr Keith
Butcher, John Hanley, Jeremy
Carlisle, John (N Luton) Hannam, John
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Hargreaves, Kenneth
Carttiss, Michael Harvey, Robert
Chalker, Mrs Lynda Haselhurst, Alan
Chapman, Sydney Hawkins, C. (High Peak)
Chope, Christopher Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk)
Churchill, W. S. Hawksley, Warren
Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n) Hayes, J.
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) Hayhoe, Barney
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) Hayward, Robert
Clarke Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Heathcoat-Amory, David
Clegg, Sir Walter Heddle, John
Cockeram, Eric Henderson, Barry
Colvin, Michael Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Conway, Derek Hickmet, Richard
Coombs, Simon Hicks, Robert
Cope, John Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Corrie, John Hill, James
Couchman, James Hind, Kenneth
Crouch, David Hirst, Michael
Currie, Mrs Edwina Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) Morris, M. (N'hampton, S)
Holt, Richard Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)
Hooson, Tom Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)
Hordern, Peter Moynihan, Hon C.
Howard, Michael Mudd, David
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A) Murphy, Christopher
Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) Needham, Richard
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Nelson, Anthony
Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford) Neubert, Michael
Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) Newton, Tony
Hubbard-Miles, Peter Nicholls, Patrick
Hunt, David (Wirral) Norris, Steven
Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Onslow, Cranley
Hunter, Andrew Oppenheim, Philip
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas Osborn, Sir John
Irving, Charles Ottaway, Richard
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick Page, John (Harrow W)
Johnson-Smith, Sir Geoffrey Page, Richard (Herts SW)
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil
Jones, Robert (W Herts) Patten, John (Oxford)
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Pattie, Geoffrey
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Pawsey, James
Kershaw, Sir Anthony Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Key, Robert Pink, R. Bonner
King, Roger (B'ham N'field) Pollock, Alexander
King, Rt Hon Tom Porter, Barry
Knight, Gregory (Derby N) Powell, Rt Hon J. E. (S Down)
Knight, Mrs Jill (Edgbaston) Powell, William (Corby)
Knowles, Michael Powley, John
Knox, David Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Lamont, Norman Price, Sir David
Lang, Ian Proctor, K. Harvey
Latham, Michael Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Lawler, Geoffrey Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Lawrence, Ivan Rathbone, Tim
Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover)
Lee, John (Pendle) Renton, Tim
Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Ridsdale, Sir Julian
Lester, Jim Rifkind, Malcolm
Lightbown, David Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Lilley, Peter Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)
Lloyd, Ian (Havant) Roe, Mrs Marion
Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham) Rossi, Sir Hugh
Lord, Michael Rost, Peter
Lyell, Nicholas Rowe, Andrew
McCrindle, Robert Rumbold, Mrs Angela
McCurley, Mrs Anna Ryder, Richard
Macfarlane, Neil Sackville, Hon Thomas
MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) Sainsbury, Hon Timothy
MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.
Maclean, David John. Sayeed, Jonathan
Macmillan, Rt Hon M. Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) Shelton, William (Streatham)
McQuarrie, Albert Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Madel, David Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Major, John Shersby, Michael
Malins, Humfrey Silvester, Fred
Malone, Gerald Sims, Roger
Maples, John Skeet, T. H. H.
Marland, Paul Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Mates, Michael Soames, Hon Nicholas
Maude, Francis Speller, Tony
Mawhinney, Dr Brian Spence, John
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Spencer, D.
Mayhew, Sir Patrick Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Mellor, David Squire, Robin
Merchant, Piers Stanbrook, Ivor
Meyer, Sir Anthony Stanley, John
Miller, Hal (B'grove) Steen, Anthony
Mills, Iain (Meriden) Stern, Michael
Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)
Miscampbell, Norman Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)
Mitchell, David (NW Hants) Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)
Moate, Roger Stokes, John
Monro, Sir Hector Stradling Thomas, J.
Montgomery, Fergus Sumberg, David
Moore, John Tapsell, Peter
Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) Waller, Gary
Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman Walters, Dennis
Temple-Morris, Peter Ward, John
Terlezki, Stefan Wardle, C (Bexhill)
Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. Warren, Kenneth
Thomas, Rt Hon Peter Watson, John
Thompson, Donald (Calder V) Watts, John
Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) Wells, John (Maidstone)
Thorne, Neil (Ilford S) Wheeler, John
Thornton, Malcolm Whitfield, John
Thurnham, Peter Whitney, Raymond
Townend, John (Bridlington) Wiggin, Jerry
Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) Wilkinson, John
Tracey, Richard Winterton, Mrs Ann
Trippier, David Winterton, Nicholas
Twinn, Dr Ian Wolfson, Mark
van Straubenzee, Sir W. Wood, Timothy
Vaughan, Dr Gerard Woodcock, Michael
Viggers, Peter Yeo, Tim
Wakeham, Rt Hon John Young, Sir George (Acton)
Waldegrave, Hon William
Walden, George Tellers for the Ayes:
Walker, Bill (T'side N) Mr. Carol Mather and Mr. Robert Boscawen.
Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)
Wall, Sir Patrick
NOES
Adams, Allen (Paisley N) Douglas, Dick
Alton, David Dubs, Alfred
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Duffy, A. E. P.
Ashdown, Paddy Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.
Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) Eadie, Alex
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Eastham, Ken
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n SE)
Barnett, Guy Evans, Ioan (Cynon Valley)
Barron, Kevin Evans, John (St. Helens N)
Beith, A. J, Fatchett, Derek
Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) Faulds, Andrew
Bidwell, Sydney Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Blair, Anthony Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn)
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Fisher, Mark
Boyes, Roland Flannery, Martin
Bray, Dr Jeremy Forrester, John
Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E) Foster, Derek
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Foulkes, George
Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) Fraser, J. (Norwood)
Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald
Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) Garrett, W. E.
Bruce, Malcolm Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. Godman, Dr Norman
Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) Golding, John
Campbell, Ian Gould, Bryan
Campbell-Savours, Dale Hamilton, James (M'well N)
Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y) Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Hardy, Peter
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Harman, Ms Harriet
Clarke, Thomas Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Clay, Robert Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.) Haynes, Frank
Cohen, Harry Healey, Rt Hon Denis
Coleman, Donald Heffer, Eric S.
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)
Conlan, Bernard Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)
Cook, Frank (Stockton North) Howells, Geraint
Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) Hoyle, Douglas
Corbett, Robin Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Cowans, Harry Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Hughes, Roy (Newport East)
Craigen, J. M. Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)
Crowther, Stan Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Cunningham, Dr John Janner, Hon Greville
Dalyell, Tam John, Brynmor
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) Kennedy, Charles
Deakins, Eric Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Dewar, Donald Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil
Dixon, Donald Kirkwood, Archibald
Dobson, Frank Lamond, James
Dormand, Jack Leadbitter, Ted
Leighton, Ronald Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Richardson, Ms Jo
Lewis, Terence (Worsley) Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Litherland, Robert Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Robertson, George
Lofthouse, Geoffrey Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)
Loyden, Edward Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)
McCartney, Hugh Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
McDonald, Dr Oonagh Rowlands, Ted
McGuire, Michael Ryman, John
McKay, Allen (Penistone) Sedgemore, Brian
McKelvey, William Sheerman, Barry
Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Sheldon, Rt Hon R.
McNamara, Kevin Shore, Rt Hon Peter
McTaggart, Robert Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood)
McWilliam, John Short, Mrs R(W'hampt'n NE)
Madden, Max Silkin, Rt Hon J.
Marek, Dr John Skinner, Dennis
Martin, Michael Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury)
Mason, Rt Hon Roy Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'kl'ds E)
Maxton, John Snape, Peter
Maynard, Miss Joan Soley, Clive
Meacher, Michael Spearing, Nigel
Meadowcroft, Michael Steel, Rt Hon David
Michie, William Stott, Roger
Mikardo, Ian Strang, Gavin
Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Straw, Jack
Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)
Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)
Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) Thorne, Stan (Preston)
Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) Tinn, James
Nellist, David Torney, Tom
O'Brien, William Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
O'Neill, Martin Wallace, James
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Park, George Wareing, Robert
Parry, Robert Weetch, Ken
Patchett, Terry Welsh, Michael
Pavitt, Laurie White, James
Pendry, Tom Wigley, Dafydd
Penhaligon, David Williams, Rt Hon A.
Pike, Peter Woodall, Alec
Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) Young, David (Bolton SE)
Prescott, John
Radice, Giles Tellers for the Noes:
Randall, Stuart Mr. Lawrence Cunliffe and Mr. John Home-Robertson.
Redmond, M.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Motion made—[Mr. Michael Cocks]—and Question put, That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House:—

The House divided: Ayes 195, Noes 339.

Division No. 95] [10.16 pm
AYES
Adams, Allen (Paisley N) Callaghan, Rt Hon J.
Alton, David Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Campbell, Ian
Ashdown, Paddy Campbell-Savours, Dale
Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Carter-Jones, Lewis
Banks, Tony (Newham NW) Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Barnett, Guy Clarke, Thomas
Barron, Kevin Clay, Robert
Beith, A. J. Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.)
Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) Cohen, Harry
Bidwell, Sydney Coleman, Donald
Blair, Anthony Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Conlan, Bernard
Boyes, Roland Cook, Frank (Stockton North)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Cook, Robin F. (Livingston)
Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E) Corbett, Robin
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Cowans, Harry
Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) Cox, Thomas (Tooting)
Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) Craigen, J. M.
Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) Crowther, Stan
Bruce, Malcolm Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Dr John Madden, Max
Dalyell, Tam Marek, Dr John
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) Martin, Michael
Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) Mason, Rt Hon Roy
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) Maxton, John
Deakins, Eric Maynard, Miss Joan
Dewar, Donald Meacher, Michael
Dixon, Donald Meadowcroft, Michael
Dobson, Frank Michie, William
Dormand, Jack Mikardo, Ian
Douglas, Dick Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Dubs, Alfred Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)
Duffy, A. E. P. Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)
Eadie, Alex Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Eastham, Ken Nellist, David
Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n SE) O'Brien, William
Evans, Ioan (Cynon Valley) O'Neill, Martin
Evans, John (St. Helens N) Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Fatchett, Derek Park, George
Faulds, Andrew Parry, Robert
Field, Frank (Birkenhead) Patchett, Terry
Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) Pavitt, Laurie
Fisher, Mark Pendry, Tom
Flannery, Martin Penhaligon, David
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Pike, Peter
Forrester, John Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Foster, Derek Prescott, John
Foulkes, George Radice, Giles
Fraser, J. (Norwood) Randall, Stuart
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Redmond, M.
Garrett, W. E. Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S)
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John Richardson, Ms Jo
Godman, Dr Norman Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Golding, John Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)
Gould, Bryan Robertson, George
Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)
Hardy, Peter Ross, Ernest (Dundee W)
Harman, Ms Harriet Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Rowlands, Ted
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Ryman, John
Healey, Rt Hon Denis Sedgemore, Brian
Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) Sheerman, Barry
Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) Sheldon, Rt Hon R.
Howells, Geraint Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Hoyle, Douglas Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood)
Hughes, Mark (Durham) Short, Mrs H.(W'hampt'n NE)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Silkin, Rt Hon J.
Hughes, Roy (Newport East) Skinner, Dennis
Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark) Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'kl'ds E)
Janner, Hon Greville Snape, Peter
John, Brynmor Soley, Clive
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) Spearing, Nigel
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Steel, Rt Hon David
Kennedy, Charles Stott, Roger
Kilroy-Silk, Robert Straw, Jack
Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)
Kirkwood, Archibald Thompson, J. (Wansbeck)
Lamond, James Thorne, Stan (Preston)
Leadbitter, Ted Tinn, James
Leighton, Ronald Torney, Tom
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Lewis, Terence (Worsley) Wallace, James
Litherland, Robert Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Wareing, Robert
Lofthouse, Geoffrey Weetch, Ken
Loyden, Edward Welsh, Michael
McCartney, Hugh White, James
McDonald, Dr Oonagh Wigley, Dafydd
McGuire, Michael Williams, Rt Hon A.
McKay, Allen (Penistone) Woodall, Alec
McKelvey, William Young, David (Bolton SE)
Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor
McNamara, Kevin Tellers for the Ayes:
McTaggart, Robert Mr. James Hamilton and Mr. John Home Robertson.
McWilliam, John
NOES
Adley, Robert Fallon, Michael
Aitken, Jonathan Farr, John
Alexander, Richard Favell, Anthony
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Fenner, Mrs Peggy
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Finsberg, Geoffrey
Amess, David Fletcher, Alexander
Ancram, Michael Fookes, Miss Janet
Arnold, Tom Forman, Nigel
Ashby, David Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Aspinwall, Jack Fowler, Rt Hon Norman
Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. Fox, Marcus
Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) Fraser, Peter (Angus East)
Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) Freeman, Roger
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) Fry, Peter
Baldry, Anthony Gale, Roger
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Galley, Roy
Batiste, Spencer Gardiner, George (Reigate)
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde)
Bellingham, Henry Garel-Jones, Tristan
Bendall, Vivian Glyn, Dr Alan
Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) Goodhart, Sir Philip
Berry, Sir Anthony Goodlad, Alastair
Best, Keith Gorst, John
Biffen, Rt Hon John Gow, Ian
Biggs-Davison, Sir John Gower, Sir Raymond
Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter Grant, Sir Anthony
Body, Richard Greenway, Harry
Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, E. (B'y St Edm'ds)
Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n) Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N)
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) Grist, Ian
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Ground, Patrick
Braine, Sir Bernard Grylls, Michael
Brandon-Bravo, Martin Gummer, John Selwyn
Bright, Graham Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Brinton, Tim Hampson, Dr Keith
Brittan, Rt Hon Leon Hanley, Jeremy
Brooke, Hon Peter Hannam,John
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) Hargreaves, Kenneth
Browne, John Harvey, Robert
Bruinvels, Peter Haselhurst, Alan
Bryan, Sir Paul Hawkins, C. (High Peak)
Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A. Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk)
Buck, Sir Antony Hawksley, Warren
Budgen, Nick Hayes, J.
Bulmer, Esmond Hayhoe, Barney
Burt, Alistair Hayward, Robert
Butcher, John Heathcoat-Amory, David
Carlisle, John (N Luton) Heddle, John
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Henderson, Barry
Carttiss, Michael Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Chalker, Mrs Lynda Hickmet, Richard
Chapman, Sydney Hicks, Robert
Chope, Christopher Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Churchill, W. S. Hill, James
Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n) Hind, Kenneth
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) Hirst, Michael
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
Clarke Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling)
Clegg, Sir Walter Holt, Richard
Cockeram, Eric Hooson, Tom
Colvin, Michael Hordern, Peter
Conway, Derek Howard, Michael
Coombs, Simon Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Cope, John Howarth, Gerald (Cannock)
Corrie, John Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Couchman, James Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford)
Crouch, David Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)
Currie, Mrs Edwina Hubbard-Miles, Peter
Dorrell, Stephen Hunt, David (Wirral)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Hunter, Andrew
Dunn, Robert Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Durant, Tony Irving, Charles
Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
Eggar, Tim Johnson-Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Emery, Sir Peter Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Evennett, David Jones, Robert (W Herts)
Eyre, Reginald Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith
Fairbairn, Nicholas Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine
Kershaw, Sir Anthony Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian
Key, Robert Pink, R. Bonner
King, Roger (B'ham N'field) Pollock, Alexander
King, Rt Hon Tom Porter, Barry
Knight, Gregory (Derby N) Powell, William (Corby)
Knight, Mrs Jill (Edgbaston) Powley, John
Knowles, Michael Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Knox, David Price, Sir David
Lamont, Norman Proctor, K. Harvey
Lang, Ian Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Latham, Michael Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Lawler, Geoffrey Rathbone, Tim
Lawrence, Ivan Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover)
Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel Renton, Tim
Lee, John (Pendle) Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas
Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) Ridsdale, Sir Julian
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Rifkind, Malcolm
Lester, Jim Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)
Lightbown, David Roe, Mrs Marion
Lilley, Peter Rossi, Sir Hugh
Lloyd, Ian (Havant) Rost, Peter
Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham) Rowe, Andrew
Lord, Michael Rumbold, Mrs Angela
Lyell, Nicholas Ryder, Richard
McCrindle, Robert Sackville, Hon Thomas
McCurley, Mrs Anna Sainsbury, Hon Timothy
Macfarlane, Neil St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon M.
MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) Sayeed, Jonathan
MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Maclean, David John. Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb)
Macmillan, Rt Hon M. Shelton, William (Streatham)
McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Madel, David Shersby, Michael
Major, John Silvester, Fred
Malins, Humfrey Sims, Roger
Malone, Gerald Skeet, T. H. H.
Maples, John Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Marland, Paul Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Soames, Hon Nicholas
Mates, Michael Speller, Tony
Maude, Francis Spence, John
Mawhinney, Dr Brian Spencer, D.
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Mayhew, Sir Patrick Squire, Robin
Mellor, David Stanbrook, Ivor
Merchant, Piers Stanley, John
Meyer, Sir Anthony Steen, Anthony
Miller, Hal (B'grove) Stern, Michael
Mills, Iain (Meriden) Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton)
Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) Stevens, Martin (Fulham)
Miscampbell, Norman Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)
Mitchell, David (NW Hants) Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood)
Moate, Roger Stokes, John
Monro, Sir Hector Stradling Thomas, J.
Montgomery, Fergus Sumberg, David
Moore, John Taylor, Teddy (S'end E,)
Morris, M. (N'hampton, S) Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman
Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) Temple-Morris, Peter
Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) Terlezki, Stefan
Moynihan, Hon C. Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.
Mudd, David Thomas, Rt Hon Peter
Murphy, Christopher Thompson, Donald (Calder V)
Needham, Richard Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N)
Nelson, Anthony Thorne, Neil (Ilford S)
Neubert, Michael Thornton, Malcolm
Newton, Tony Thurnham, Peter
Nicholls, Patrick Townend, John (Bridlington)
Norris, Steven Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Onslow, Cranley Tracey, Richard
Oppenheim, Philip Trippier, David
Osborn, Sir John Twinn, Dr Ian
Ottaway, Richard van Straubenzee, Sir W.
Page, John (Harrow W) Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Page, Richard (Herts SW) Viggers, Peter
Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil Wakeham, Rt Hon John
Patten, John (Oxford) Waldegrave, Hon William
Pattie, Geoffrey Walden, George
Pawsey, James Walker, Bill (T'side N)
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)
Wall, Sir Patrick Wilkinson, John
Waller, Gary Winterton, Mrs Ann
Ward, John Winterton, Nicholas
Wardle, C. (Bexhill) Wolfson, Mark
Warren, Kenneth Wood, Timothy
Watson, John Woodcock, Michael
Watts, John Yeo, Tim
Wells, Bowen (Hertford) Young, Sir George (Acton)
Wells, John (Maidstone)
Wheeler, John Tellers for the Noes:
Whitfield, John Mr. Carol Mather and Mr. Robeit Boscawen
Whitney, Raymond
Wiggin, Jerry

Question accordingly negatived.

Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 42 (Committal of Bills).

It being after Ten o'clock, MR. SPEAKER proceeded to put forthwith the Questions which he was directed by paragraph (7) of Standing Order No. 19 (Consideration of Estimates) to put at that hour.