§ The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Mrs. Lynda Chalker)It has been an interesting and highly predictable debate. Before I deal with detailed points, there is one thing we should get clear about London's public transport. By anybody's standards it is a very big business. It has an annual turnover of £850 million. Only 24 private companies in the United Kingdom employ more staff than London Transport. That is why the Bill, as my right hon. Friend has made clear, starts from the view that running an enterprise as large and as complicated as this requires, first and foremost, management skills of the highest order. We cannot expect to find or to retain such skills if they are constantly to be subject to political and bureaucratic interference. It is to get away from the day-to-clay interference that the Bill proposes to take the responsibility from the GLC, which daily spends more and more ratepayers' money on expensive documents like "Kill the Bill" produced at ratepayers' expense to try to hide what it is really after — to avert its own abolition by a different piece of legislation.
It is no good if accountability of any public body is clouded by divisions of responsibility between endless committees and line management itself. We brought forward the Bill because we are set on simplification. We will have proper and adequate safeguards, but until we leave the managers of London's public transport free to take the management decisions on their own we will never improve the standard for the traveller in London. That is what we intend to do through the Bill.
There are no complications in the Bill of new supervising authorities or watchdog bodies. I shall come back to this in a few minutes. We must have a structure which will develop under the powers of the Bill to meet the needs of the traveller in London, but it must have the object of maintaining clear lines of accountability within the broad objective that London Regional Transport will be set by my right hon. Friend.
The Bill caters for change and development. It will create new services where these are needed by passengers and encourage new forms of interchange between different modes of transport—coach to rail, underground to bus and even perhaps new passenger services on the river— but it is an approach which is simple and above all practicable and workable.
919 The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape), who described my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Baldry) in various chocolate terms, is more like a well-known mint. He has a very firm exterior, but there is an awful lot of air in the middle. That is exactly what we had this evening.
The hon. Member was very concerned about investment, as are we. Under the Bill, London Regional Transport will continue to receive grants for revenue support for depreciation and renewal and for capital investment, as it does now, but it will at last have the chance to borrow on short-term for overdrafts for its own cash flow and long-term for more profitable capital investment. There is no limit on grant in the Bill, because there is no need to provide a special opportunity to debate London Transport finances. We shall have an annual negative order on the ratepayer contribution which can be debated in the House.
The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East said that there was a limit on borrowing in the Bill. There is a £100 million limit but that can be raised by order, and a £100 million limit ought to be enough to last London Transport for some years.
We heard a lot from various hon. Members about democracy and accountability. First, we should look at what is proposed in the Bill. I got the feeling that many hon. Members have not done so, particularly some of those who made some extravagant claims about what now takes place under the GLC. The Bill gives London Regional Transport specific duties, including the preparation of plans on which there should be full consultations with local authorities and the users' consultative committee. It creates a clear and accountable financial regime. As a result, there will be proper transparency of cost, something we have not had in the past. The Bill also requires annual reports on how LRT's performance has measured up to the plans.
Secondly, we shall establish a powerful new watchdog committee — a single committee — to look after the interests of consumers. There is no question but that this committee will clearly scrutinise the way in which customers' needs have been met on London Regional Transport and British Rail alike.
Thirdly, there is accountability to this House. Some Labour Members have argued that the present accountability of the GLC is satisfactory.
§ Mr. Tony BanksThrough the ballot box.
§ Mrs. ChalkerI should point out to the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks), who was shouting in his normal way, that the ratepayers who finance the bulk of what the GLC spends have no vote in local elections. They provide London's jobs. In fact, the non-domestic ratepayer provides more than 62 per cent. of London's rates. In addition, London's visitors and commuters are in no way represented by the GLC. That is why I and the Government believe that GLC decisions should be patently clear and should not, as at present, be taken in a closed party caucus.
§ Mr. PrescottWhat is the Cabinet?
§ Mrs. ChalkerTime and again, opposition councillors do not see papers until late in the day, if they see them at 920 all, and time and again public transport expenditure in London has never been properly revealed, least of all to that 62 per cent.
§ Mr. Simon Hughesrose——
§ Mr. Spearingrose——
§ Mrs. ChalkerI cannot give way, as I have only a short time in which to reply.
The packing of the LT board has been designed to blur the facts and suppress the options. That, among other things, has above all shown how unfit the GLC has become to run London Transport.
By contrast, the Secretary of State will set out clearly and publicly the objectives and principles for LRT. He is required to do so by the Bill. LRT policies will be debated in this House, and the amount of subsidy will be clearly stated and debated annually. Those are all aspects of accountability against which the Opposition have no reason to argue, however much they may try.
§ Mr. SpearingWill the hon. Lady give way on the question of accountability?
§ Mrs. ChalkerI very much regret having to say that I cannot do so at present.
There has been much interest in the new consumer body. A number of questions have been asked about it, and I wish to place something clearly on the record. When my right hon. Friend mentioned the proposed new arrangements for consumer representation, he said that the proposals for a merger originated with the consumer bodies. I am grateful to those bodies that we met, and we are now able to give the London Regional Passengers' Committee an important status in the Bill.
The London Transport Users' Consultative Committee wrote a letter only today saying how encouraged it is by our proposals. There has also been a welcome by the London Transport Passengers' Committee, the present London Transport consultative committee. The London Regional Passengers' Committee in future—the single consumer body—will be consulted on London Regional Transport policy statements under clause 7 of the Bill and informed about current plans under clause 29. The arrangements mirror one of the Bill's main objectives, which is to achieve liaison between British Rail and LRT, which the passengers of London not only want and need but deserve.
Fares were mentioned by several hon. Members. The role of the new consumer body in relation to fares is important. At present consumer bodies dealing with transport — the Central Transport Consultative Committee, the area transport users' consultative committees, and, in London, the LTPC—all have fares and charges specifically excluded from their statutory remit. In December last year the Government published a document called
The Nationalised Industry Consumer Councils: A Strategy for Reform".In the document we said that we were considering whether that exclusion should continue.We gave careful consideration during the preparation of the Bill first to the general principle and second to the possible use of the Bill as a vehicle in which to incorporate any change to the existing law in this respect. The general principle is that the industries must work to the financial objectives set by Government and determine the level of 921 fares without being subject to specific directions. However, we accept that within that framework there is a role for the consumer bodies in relation to the structure and relativities of fares.
On the second point, it would not be appropriate to make such a change in a Bill the scope of which is limited to the London region. However, the Government intend to deal with the matter on the above lines if and when a suitable legislative opportunity arises.
Meanwhile, I am glad to say that the chairman of British Rail, Mr. Bob Reid, has agreed that his board will consult both the Central Transport Consultative Committee and the new London Regional Passengers' Committee about fares and charges on an informal basis, in advance of any new legislation. I am sure that the board of LRT, when appointed, will agree to do the same thing in relation to the LRPC. I hope that when hon. Members read what I have said about fares, they will understand the depth of what I have said.
§ Mr. PrescottThe Minister of State will be aware of the brief that was sent to every hon. Member from the National Consumer Council, which says that in the Bill the LRPC lacks
rights to consultation and to access to the information essential for the effective representation of passengers' interests.That is missing from the Bill.
§ Mrs. ChalkerThat is the reason why I said what I did about fares just now. If the hon. Gentleman reviews what I said when he reads Hansard, he will understand its import. We have taken the advice of the TUCC for London and the LTPC. We got them together, which was the first change from the White Paper to the Bill. We are seeking at least to give them some access to discussions on an informal basis until such legislation is passed.
§ Mr. PrescottSo the Bill is like a mark 3 Bill.
§ Mrs. ChalkerIt is in no way a mark 3 Bill. A House of Commons that refused to amend a Bill would not be doing the best thing and listening to other people.
In the debate we heard that there is a banner at County Hall across the river. I have not yet seen it. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) said that 90 per cent. of 562 people who were asked felt that the GLC should carry on being responsible for London Transport. The hon. Gentleman might remember that I am a statistician. I worked for 13 years in market research. It is interesting that only 562 people were interviewed. I should like to know where they were interviewed in their quota sample and what questions they were asked. I bet the hon. Gentleman a small amount of money that if he and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State were asked, "Would you like fares to be kept down?" they would both answer, "Yes". Of course, much of a sample such as that depends on the question that is asked.
§ Mr. PrescottIf the hon. Lady cannot accept that poll, will she at least accept the verdict of the GLC election when that transport policy was put to the London electorate and it voted overwhelmingly in favour of it?
§ Mrs. ChalkerI seem to remember that when the Labour party went into the GLC election in 1981 it was under a quite different leadership and had a different manifesto. A great deal has changed in Greater London because of that.
The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East asked me to explain some of the figures about ratepayer 922 contributions that he handed to the Secretary of State. Many figures have been bandied about. I hope that he will listen closely as the subject is complicated. He might remember that, last autumn, the GLC claimed in press advertisements — which again were paid for by ratepayers, of course—that only 3 per cent. of London Transport's costs were provided by the taxpayer. In January this year it used a combination of assumptions to claim that the ratepayer contribution for 1983–84 would be more than 90 per cent. It has now used a different set of calculations to arrive at a ratepayer contribution of 62 per cent.
I could show the House, by using equally judicious methods and assumptions, that the ratepayer contribution is more than 100 per cent. by taking hold-back and taper into account. I do not wish to puzzle the hon. Gentleman any more. Nevertheless, I do not doubt that he will want to delve into this matter in Committee. We have examined the figures in some detail and made calculations. I do not wish to mislead anyone, least of all the House, by attaching too much weight to the calculations which the hon. Gentleman mentioned or the ones that I am about to mention. However, in 1983–84 the GLC budgeted to spend £235 million on revenue support and £155 million on capital grant. That represents a total of £390 million. On the neutral assumption of attributing transport supplementary grant pro rata to accepted expenditure, the Government provided £104 million of that grant. That represented 27 per cent. of the GLC's support to the London Transport Executive. On that basis the ratepayer contribution is 73 per cent. That is precisely why my right hon. Friend said that by having a maximum of two thirds set in the Bill ratepayers will be better off.
Our main objective has been to achieve progressive reduction of costs and the associated level of subsidy. There is nothing sacrosanct about the two thirds maximum and I hope that there will be scope for reducing it if all goes well.
I was also asked for a simple explanation of protected expenditure levels. That is not the easiest thing to do in the time that is available to me. I shall simply say that we are quite confident that setting the figure which was announced last week will not necessitate substantial fares increases in 1984–85, provided that nothing is done to add to the costs which are borne by the London Transport Executive or to squander the savings which the executive expects to achieve in 1983–84. That is the substance of the press release which London Transport has released this evening.
Concessionary fares are a vexed issue. It is typical of the GLC and its supporters that they continue to arouse needless anxiety about something that is not directly affected by the Bill. I should like to make it clear once again that the Bill merely maintains the powers of the GLC and the boroughs to fund concessionary fares on any operator's services. After the abolition of the GLC in more than two years' time, concessionary fares will be a matter for the boroughs. The London Boroughs Association has already agreed that the boroughs should assume responsibility for concessionary fares on the basis of the existing scheme. I see no reason why any pensioners should be alarmed by the GLC's scare stories, although in all probability such is the extent of the GLC's advertising that many will be worried needlessly. Only a few months ago we heard that it was not possible for the boroughs to get together as to the funding of voluntary organisations. 923 but they have now got together voluntarily to discuss that subject. From my conversations with leaders of different London boroughs and the leader of the LBA, I have no doubt that they will get together to produce a workable scheme to maintain concessionary fares—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East can shout all he likes. The London boroughs must themselves decide the scheme. The pensioners of London need a workable scheme which can benefit those who need the concessions.
As hon. Members know, I take a special interest in services for the disabled. The funding and accountability for the costs of special services such as "dial-a-ride", subsidised taxis and the concessions on buses and tubes must be left with the local authorities. I understand the great anxiety faced by many disabled people as to the future provisions to meet their special needs. I give the House the assurance that we shall consider carefully their needs. I shall shortly be meeting the Federation of London Dial-a-Rides, the Joint Committee on Mobility of the Disabled and the Greater London Association of Disabled People to seek their views.
Among the principles which we will require LRT to work to will be for it constantly to improve the design and facility not only for the disabled but for all those with problems using conventional public transport—the frail, elderly, those with shopping, small children and so forth.
The hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) took us back to 1933. I examined the proposals of the Labour Government of 1929, who set up the London Passenger Transport Act 1933 which was taken over by the national Government in 1933. It is interesting to note that all of the proposals accepted in the House were based on four points, first, unification under public control; secondly, management by a non-political body; thirdly, participation by the main line railway without transfer of ownership, and, fourthly, a self-supporting and subsidised system to be run commercially. We differ only on the fourth point, in that we believe that subsidy is needed to maintain services.
§ Mr. Spearingrose——
§ Mrs. ChalkerI shall write to the hon. Members to whom I am unable to reply or I shall deal with their questions in Committee.
portThe bus licensing provision of the Bill enables us to bring flexibility into the provision of services which we have hitherto not had in the capital city. Many areas of the capital city are not served as they deserve by some form of transport, as has been mentioned by many of my hon. Friends. We shall use the Bill to improve the position.
Opposition Members have accused the Government of making a politically motivated attack on the GLC. I assure the House that the decision to create London Regional Transport was independent of the Government's decision to abolish the GLC. We would have proceeded with the Bill in any event. The Bill, above all, seeks to apply modern management and commercial disciplines to the provision of public transport in London. In this way, the huge experience and expertise that London Transport has accumulated can be harnessed to provide improved standards and better services for London's travellers, free from the day-to-day increasing political interference as seen in the past few months. It provides a coherent and constructive plan to take public transport in the nation's 924 capital well into the next century. It also gives a clear and accountable remit to the business men who will be appointed to the board of LRT to carry out compatible financing for London Transport and British Rail.
§ Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 341, Noes 196.
927| Division No. 94] | [10 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adley, Robert | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. |
| Alexander, Richard | du Cann, Rt Hon Edward |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Dunn, Robert |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Durant, Tony |
| Amess, David | Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) |
| Ancram, Michael | Eggar, Tim |
| Arnold, Tom | Emery, Sir Peter |
| Ashby, David | Evennett, David |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Eyre, Reginald |
| Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. | Fairbairn, Nicholas |
| Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) | Farr, John |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) | Favell, Anthony |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Fenner, Mrs Peggy |
| Baldry, Anthony | Finsberg, Geoffrey |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Fletcher, Alexander |
| Batiste, Spencer | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Forman, Nigel |
| Bellingham, Henry | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Bendall, Vivian | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) | Fox, Marcus |
| Berry, Sir Anthony | Fraser, Peter (Angus East) |
| Best, Keith | Freeman, Roger |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Fry, Peter |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Gale, Roger |
| Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Galley, Roy |
| Body, Richard | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Bottomley, Peter | Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde) |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n) | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Goodhart, Sir Philip |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Bright, Graham | Gorst, John |
| Brinton, Tim | Gow, Ian |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Gower, Sir Raymond |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Grant, Sir Anthony |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) | Greenway, Harry |
| Browne, John | Griffiths, E. (B'y St Edm"ds) |
| Bruinvels, Peter | Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Grist, Ian |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A. | Ground, Patrick |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Grylls, Michael |
| Budgen, Nick | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Burt, Alistair | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Butcher, John | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Carlisle, John (N Luton) | Hannam, John |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hargreaves, Kenneth |
| Carttiss, Michael | Harvey, Robert |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Chapman, Sydney | Hawkins, C. (High Peak) |
| Chope, Christopher | Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk) |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hawksley, Warren |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n) | Hayes, J. |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Hayward, Robert |
| Clarke Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Heddle, John |
| Cockeram, Eric | Henderson, Barry |
| Colvin, Michael | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Conway, Derek | Hickmet, Richard |
| Coombs, Simon | Hicks, Robert |
| Cope, John | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Corrie, John | Hill, James |
| Couchman, James | Hind, Kenneth |
| Crouch, David | Hirst, Michael |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) | Morris, M. (N'hampton, S) |
| Holt, Richard | Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) |
| Hooson, Tom | Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) |
| Hordern, Peter | Moynihan, Hon C. |
| Howard, Michael | Mudd, David |
| Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A) | Murphy, Christopher |
| Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) | Needham, Richard |
| Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Nelson, Anthony |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford) | Neubert, Michael |
| Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) | Newton, Tony |
| Hubbard-Miles, Peter | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Hunt, David (Wirral) | Norris, Steven |
| Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Onslow, Cranley |
| Hunter, Andrew | Oppenheim, Philip |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Osborn, Sir John |
| Irving, Charles | Ottaway, Richard |
| Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick | Page, John (Harrow W) |
| Johnson-Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Page, Richard (Herts SW) |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil |
| Jones, Robert (W Herts) | Patten, John (Oxford) |
| Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Pawsey, James |
| Kershaw, Sir Anthony | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Key, Robert | Pink, R. Bonner |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'field) | Pollock, Alexander |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Porter, Barry |
| Knight, Gregory (Derby N) | Powell, Rt Hon J. E. (S Down) |
| Knight, Mrs Jill (Edgbaston) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Knowles, Michael | Powley, John |
| Knox, David | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Lamont, Norman | Price, Sir David |
| Lang, Ian | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Latham, Michael | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Lawler, Geoffrey | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Rathbone, Tim |
| Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel | Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover) |
| Lee, John (Pendle) | Renton, Tim |
| Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Lester, Jim | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Lightbown, David | Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey |
| Lilley, Peter | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Lloyd, Ian (Havant) | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham) | Rossi, Sir Hugh |
| Lord, Michael | Rost, Peter |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Rowe, Andrew |
| McCrindle, Robert | Rumbold, Mrs Angela |
| McCurley, Mrs Anna | Ryder, Richard |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Sackville, Hon Thomas |
| MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) | St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N. |
| Maclean, David John. | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| Macmillan, Rt Hon M. | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| McQuarrie, Albert | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Madel, David | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Major, John | Shersby, Michael |
| Malins, Humfrey | Silvester, Fred |
| Malone, Gerald | Sims, Roger |
| Maples, John | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Marland, Paul | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Mates, Michael | Soames, Hon Nicholas |
| Maude, Francis | Speller, Tony |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Spence, John |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Spencer, D. |
| Mayhew, Sir Patrick | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Mellor, David | Squire, Robin |
| Merchant, Piers | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Stanley, John |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Steen, Anthony |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Stern, Michael |
| Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) | Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) |
| Mitchell, David (NW Hants) | Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) |
| Moate, Roger | Stokes, John |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Sumberg, David |
| Moore, John | Tapsell, Peter |
| Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) | Waller, Gary |
| Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman | Walters, Dennis |
| Temple-Morris, Peter | Ward, John |
| Terlezki, Stefan | Wardle, C (Bexhill) |
| Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. | Warren, Kenneth |
| Thomas, Rt Hon Peter | Watson, John |
| Thompson, Donald (Calder V) | Watts, John |
| Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Thorne, Neil (Ilford S) | Wheeler, John |
| Thornton, Malcolm | Whitfield, John |
| Thurnham, Peter | Whitney, Raymond |
| Townend, John (Bridlington) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) | Wilkinson, John |
| Tracey, Richard | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Trippier, David | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Twinn, Dr Ian | Wolfson, Mark |
| van Straubenzee, Sir W. | Wood, Timothy |
| Vaughan, Dr Gerard | Woodcock, Michael |
| Viggers, Peter | Yeo, Tim |
| Wakeham, Rt Hon John | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Waldegrave, Hon William | |
| Walden, George | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Walker, Bill (T'side N) | Mr. Carol Mather and Mr. Robert Boscawen. |
| Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester) | |
| Wall, Sir Patrick |
| NOES | |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Douglas, Dick |
| Alton, David | Dubs, Alfred |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Duffy, A. E. P. |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Eadie, Alex |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Eastham, Ken |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n SE) |
| Barnett, Guy | Evans, Ioan (Cynon Valley) |
| Barron, Kevin | Evans, John (St. Helens N) |
| Beith, A. J, | Fatchett, Derek |
| Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) | Faulds, Andrew |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Blair, Anthony | Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Fisher, Mark |
| Boyes, Roland | Flannery, Martin |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Forrester, John |
| Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E) | Foster, Derek |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Foulkes, George |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) | Fraser, J. (Norwood) |
| Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Garrett, W. E. |
| Bruce, Malcolm | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. | Godman, Dr Norman |
| Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) | Golding, John |
| Campbell, Ian | Gould, Bryan |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Hamilton, James (M'well N) |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y) | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Hardy, Peter |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Clarke, Thomas | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Clay, Robert | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.) | Haynes, Frank |
| Cohen, Harry | Healey, Rt Hon Denis |
| Coleman, Donald | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton North) | Howells, Geraint |
| Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) | Hoyle, Douglas |
| Corbett, Robin | Hughes, Mark (Durham) |
| Cowans, Harry | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Hughes, Roy (Newport East) |
| Craigen, J. M. | Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) |
| Crowther, Stan | Hughes, Simon (Southwark) |
| Cunningham, Dr John | Janner, Hon Greville |
| Dalyell, Tam | John, Brynmor |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) | Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) |
| Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) | Kennedy, Charles |
| Deakins, Eric | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Dewar, Donald | Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil |
| Dixon, Donald | Kirkwood, Archibald |
| Dobson, Frank | Lamond, James |
| Dormand, Jack | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Leighton, Ronald | Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S) |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Richardson, Ms Jo |
| Lewis, Terence (Worsley) | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| Litherland, Robert | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Robertson, George |
| Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| Loyden, Edward | Ross, Ernest (Dundee W) |
| McCartney, Hugh | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Rowlands, Ted |
| McGuire, Michael | Ryman, John |
| McKay, Allen (Penistone) | Sedgemore, Brian |
| McKelvey, William | Sheerman, Barry |
| Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| McNamara, Kevin | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| McTaggart, Robert | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| McWilliam, John | Short, Mrs R(W'hampt'n NE) |
| Madden, Max | Silkin, Rt Hon J. |
| Marek, Dr John | Skinner, Dennis |
| Martin, Michael | Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury) |
| Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'kl'ds E) |
| Maxton, John | Snape, Peter |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Soley, Clive |
| Meacher, Michael | Spearing, Nigel |
| Meadowcroft, Michael | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Michie, William | Stott, Roger |
| Mikardo, Ian | Strang, Gavin |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Straw, Jack |
| Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) |
| Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) | Thompson, J. (Wansbeck) |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) | Thorne, Stan (Preston) |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Tinn, James |
| Nellist, David | Torney, Tom |
| O'Brien, William | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| O'Neill, Martin | Wallace, James |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Park, George | Wareing, Robert |
| Parry, Robert | Weetch, Ken |
| Patchett, Terry | Welsh, Michael |
| Pavitt, Laurie | White, James |
| Pendry, Tom | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Penhaligon, David | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| Pike, Peter | Woodall, Alec |
| Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Prescott, John | |
| Radice, Giles | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Randall, Stuart | Mr. Lawrence Cunliffe and Mr. John Home-Robertson. |
| Redmond, M. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Motion made—[Mr. Michael Cocks]—and Question put, That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 195, Noes 339.
931| Division No. 95] | [10.16 pm |
| AYES | |
| Adams, Allen (Paisley N) | Callaghan, Rt Hon J. |
| Alton, David | Callaghan, Jim (Heyw'd & M) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Campbell, Ian |
| Ashdown, Paddy | Campbell-Savours, Dale |
| Atkinson, N. (Tottenham) | Carlile, Alexander (Montg'y) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Carter-Jones, Lewis |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Clark, Dr David (S Shields) |
| Barnett, Guy | Clarke, Thomas |
| Barron, Kevin | Clay, Robert |
| Beith, A. J. | Cocks, Rt Hon M. (Bristol S.) |
| Bennett, A. (Dent'n & Red'sh) | Cohen, Harry |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Coleman, Donald |
| Blair, Anthony | Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Conlan, Bernard |
| Boyes, Roland | Cook, Frank (Stockton North) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Cook, Robin F. (Livingston) |
| Brown, Gordon (D'f'mline E) | Corbett, Robin |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Cowans, Harry |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne E) | Cox, Thomas (Tooting) |
| Brown, R. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne N) | Craigen, J. M. |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Crowther, Stan |
| Bruce, Malcolm | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Cunningham, Dr John | Madden, Max |
| Dalyell, Tam | Marek, Dr John |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) | Martin, Michael |
| Davies, Ronald (Caerphilly) | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'ge H'l) | Maxton, John |
| Deakins, Eric | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Dewar, Donald | Meacher, Michael |
| Dixon, Donald | Meadowcroft, Michael |
| Dobson, Frank | Michie, William |
| Dormand, Jack | Mikardo, Ian |
| Douglas, Dick | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Dubs, Alfred | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby) |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) |
| Eadie, Alex | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Eastham, Ken | Nellist, David |
| Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n SE) | O'Brien, William |
| Evans, Ioan (Cynon Valley) | O'Neill, Martin |
| Evans, John (St. Helens N) | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Fatchett, Derek | Park, George |
| Faulds, Andrew | Parry, Robert |
| Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | Patchett, Terry |
| Fields, T. (L'pool Broad Gn) | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Fisher, Mark | Pendry, Tom |
| Flannery, Martin | Penhaligon, David |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Pike, Peter |
| Forrester, John | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Foster, Derek | Prescott, John |
| Foulkes, George | Radice, Giles |
| Fraser, J. (Norwood) | Randall, Stuart |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Redmond, M. |
| Garrett, W. E. | Rees, Rt Hon M. (Leeds S) |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Richardson, Ms Jo |
| Godman, Dr Norman | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| Golding, John | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| Gould, Bryan | Robertson, George |
| Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) | Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| Hardy, Peter | Ross, Ernest (Dundee W) |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Rowlands, Ted |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Ryman, John |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth) | Sheerman, Barry |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath) | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| Howells, Geraint | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Hoyle, Douglas | Short, Ms Clare (Ladywood) |
| Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Short, Mrs H.(W'hampt'n NE) |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Silkin, Rt Hon J. |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport East) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S) | Smith, C.(Isl'ton S & F'bury) |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Smith, Rt Hon J. (M'kl'ds E) |
| Janner, Hon Greville | Snape, Peter |
| John, Brynmor | Soley, Clive |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside) | Spearing, Nigel |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Kennedy, Charles | Stott, Roger |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Straw, Jack |
| Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil | Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) |
| Kirkwood, Archibald | Thompson, J. (Wansbeck) |
| Lamond, James | Thorne, Stan (Preston) |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Tinn, James |
| Leighton, Ronald | Torney, Tom |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Lewis, Terence (Worsley) | Wallace, James |
| Litherland, Robert | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Wareing, Robert |
| Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Weetch, Ken |
| Loyden, Edward | Welsh, Michael |
| McCartney, Hugh | White, James |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Wigley, Dafydd |
| McGuire, Michael | Williams, Rt Hon A. |
| McKay, Allen (Penistone) | Woodall, Alec |
| McKelvey, William | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | |
| McNamara, Kevin | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| McTaggart, Robert | Mr. James Hamilton and Mr. John Home Robertson. |
| McWilliam, John |
| NOES | |
| Adley, Robert | Fallon, Michael |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Farr, John |
| Alexander, Richard | Favell, Anthony |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Fenner, Mrs Peggy |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Finsberg, Geoffrey |
| Amess, David | Fletcher, Alexander |
| Ancram, Michael | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Arnold, Tom | Forman, Nigel |
| Ashby, David | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Atkins, Rt Hon Sir H. | Fox, Marcus |
| Atkins, Robert (South Ribble) | Fraser, Peter (Angus East) |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th E) | Freeman, Roger |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Fry, Peter |
| Baldry, Anthony | Gale, Roger |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Galley, Roy |
| Batiste, Spencer | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Gardner, Sir Edward (Fylde) |
| Bellingham, Henry | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Bendall, Vivian | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) | Goodhart, Sir Philip |
| Berry, Sir Anthony | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Best, Keith | Gorst, John |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Gow, Ian |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Gower, Sir Raymond |
| Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Grant, Sir Anthony |
| Body, Richard | Greenway, Harry |
| Bottomley, Peter | Griffiths, E. (B'y St Edm'ds) |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton K'to'n) | Griffiths, Peter (Portsm'th N) |
| Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich) | Grist, Ian |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Ground, Patrick |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Grylls, Michael |
| Brandon-Bravo, Martin | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Bright, Graham | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Brinton, Tim | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Brittan, Rt Hon Leon | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Hannam,John |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thpes) | Hargreaves, Kenneth |
| Browne, John | Harvey, Robert |
| Bruinvels, Peter | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Hawkins, C. (High Peak) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt Hon A. | Hawkins, Sir Paul (SW N'folk) |
| Buck, Sir Antony | Hawksley, Warren |
| Budgen, Nick | Hayes, J. |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Burt, Alistair | Hayward, Robert |
| Butcher, John | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Carlisle, John (N Luton) | Heddle, John |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Henderson, Barry |
| Carttiss, Michael | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Hickmet, Richard |
| Chapman, Sydney | Hicks, Robert |
| Chope, Christopher | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hill, James |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th S'n) | Hind, Kenneth |
| Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) | Hirst, Michael |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Clarke Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Holland, Sir Philip (Gedling) |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Holt, Richard |
| Cockeram, Eric | Hooson, Tom |
| Colvin, Michael | Hordern, Peter |
| Conway, Derek | Howard, Michael |
| Coombs, Simon | Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A) |
| Cope, John | Howarth, Gerald (Cannock) |
| Corrie, John | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Couchman, James | Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldford) |
| Crouch, David | Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina | Hubbard-Miles, Peter |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Hunter, Andrew |
| Dunn, Robert | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Durant, Tony | Irving, Charles |
| Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) | Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick |
| Eggar, Tim | Johnson-Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Evennett, David | Jones, Robert (W Herts) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine |
| Kershaw, Sir Anthony | Percival, Rt Hon Sir Ian |
| Key, Robert | Pink, R. Bonner |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'field) | Pollock, Alexander |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Porter, Barry |
| Knight, Gregory (Derby N) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Knight, Mrs Jill (Edgbaston) | Powley, John |
| Knowles, Michael | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Knox, David | Price, Sir David |
| Lamont, Norman | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Lang, Ian | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Latham, Michael | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Lawler, Geoffrey | Rathbone, Tim |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Rees, Rt Hon Peter (Dover) |
| Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel | Renton, Tim |
| Lee, John (Pendle) | Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Leigh, Edward (Gainsbor'gh) | Ridsdale, Sir Julian |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Lester, Jim | Roberts, Wyn (Conwy) |
| Lightbown, David | Roe, Mrs Marion |
| Lilley, Peter | Rossi, Sir Hugh |
| Lloyd, Ian (Havant) | Rost, Peter |
| Lloyd, Peter, (Fareham) | Rowe, Andrew |
| Lord, Michael | Rumbold, Mrs Angela |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Ryder, Richard |
| McCrindle, Robert | Sackville, Hon Thomas |
| McCurley, Mrs Anna | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Macfarlane, Neil | St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon M. |
| MacKay, Andrew (Berkshire) | Sayeed, Jonathan |
| MacKay, John (Argyll & Bute) | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Maclean, David John. | Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb) |
| Macmillan, Rt Hon M. | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Madel, David | Shersby, Michael |
| Major, John | Silvester, Fred |
| Malins, Humfrey | Sims, Roger |
| Malone, Gerald | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Maples, John | Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick) |
| Marland, Paul | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Soames, Hon Nicholas |
| Mates, Michael | Speller, Tony |
| Maude, Francis | Spence, John |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Spencer, D. |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Mayhew, Sir Patrick | Squire, Robin |
| Mellor, David | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Merchant, Piers | Stanley, John |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Steen, Anthony |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Stern, Michael |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Stevens, Lewis (Nuneaton) |
| Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) | Stevens, Martin (Fulham) |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Stewart, Allan (Eastwood) |
| Mitchell, David (NW Hants) | Stewart, Andrew (Sherwood) |
| Moate, Roger | Stokes, John |
| Monro, Sir Hector | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Sumberg, David |
| Moore, John | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E,) |
| Morris, M. (N'hampton, S) | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Terlezki, Stefan |
| Moynihan, Hon C. | Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. |
| Mudd, David | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Murphy, Christopher | Thompson, Donald (Calder V) |
| Needham, Richard | Thompson, Patrick (N'ich N) |
| Nelson, Anthony | Thorne, Neil (Ilford S) |
| Neubert, Michael | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Newton, Tony | Thurnham, Peter |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Norris, Steven | Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath) |
| Onslow, Cranley | Tracey, Richard |
| Oppenheim, Philip | Trippier, David |
| Osborn, Sir John | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Ottaway, Richard | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Page, John (Harrow W) | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Page, Richard (Herts SW) | Viggers, Peter |
| Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil | Wakeham, Rt Hon John |
| Patten, John (Oxford) | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Walden, George |
| Pawsey, James | Walker, Bill (T'side N) |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester) |
| Wall, Sir Patrick | Wilkinson, John |
| Waller, Gary | Winterton, Mrs Ann |
| Ward, John | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Wardle, C. (Bexhill) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Warren, Kenneth | Wood, Timothy |
| Watson, John | Woodcock, Michael |
| Watts, John | Yeo, Tim |
| Wells, Bowen (Hertford) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Wells, John (Maidstone) | |
| Wheeler, John | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Whitfield, John | Mr. Carol Mather and Mr. Robeit Boscawen |
| Whitney, Raymond | |
| Wiggin, Jerry |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 42 (Committal of Bills).
§ It being after Ten o'clock, MR. SPEAKER proceeded to put forthwith the Questions which he was directed by paragraph (7) of Standing Order No. 19 (Consideration of Estimates) to put at that hour.