Driving Licences

HC Deb 20 October 1982 vol 29 cc455-74 10.15 pm

The Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mrs. Lynda Chalker)

I beg to move, That the draft Driving Licences (Community Driving Licence) Regulations 1982, which were laid before this House on 22nd July, be approved. Many hon. Members will agree with me that the title to the regulations is rather misleading, as my predecessor, my hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Health, said two years ago. In considering the regulations, it will become clear that they do not introduce a Community driving licence as such. The memorandum with the regulations explains the content in some detail. I shall go through it briefly. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) and his Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which has drawn attention to the regulation and to the explanatory memorandum that should be read with it.

These regulations are the final stage in a process of negotiations that has been going on ever since the United Kingdom acceded to the European Community. Indeed, the House debated a draft directive in July 1973.

The present directive, which was finally agreed on 4 December 1980, was approved by this House on 4 November 1980. As my right hon. Friend the present Secretary of State for Social Services stressed then, it is a small step on the path to greater freedom of movement in Europe. But it is important nevertheless because it removes irksome restrictions on the ordinary motorist who moves home to another Community country, and because it contains provisions which will lead to better safety standards in Europe. The regulations are indeed in order to bring into practical effect the principles of the directive as approved by the House in 1980.

I know that some quite understandable anxieties have been expressed about the exchange of driving licences, not so much for driving private cars but for vocational driving of heavy goods and public service vehicles. It was precisely because of British insistence on adequate safeguards in the granting of these licences that the negotiation was so long and difficult. I shall be making clear in the course of my remarks how we have kept these safeguards in view in working out the practical arrangements for exchanges.

Let me first explain the form and the effect of the regulations. They involve amendments to our existing road traffic law, because that states that the licensing authorities concerned may not grant either ordinary or heavy goods vehicle driving licences unless the applicant has either held such a licence previously or passed the driving test. The legislation does not recognise foreign licences, and requires visitors and new residents to take the British test if they wish to continue driving here. They are permitted to drive for up to a year.

Regulation 1 contains the operative date: the licensing authorities may start issuing licences as soon as this instrument has parliamentary approval and has been made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, but their validity will date from 1 January 1983.

For convenience, I shall next mention regulation 3. This introduces the definition of a Community licence, which means for this purpose the national licences issued in other Community States. The definition also covers the licences issued to the British Forces, civilian personnel of the Ministry of Defence, and British dependants in West Germany. It will also cover the national licences which will be issued by member States in the Community model format, which will start not later than 1986. This format will not in fact be greatly different from existing licences, except that full licences will be pink instead of green. The Community model will not replace people's existing till-70 licences. They will continue. All existing licences will remain valid until they need to be renewed, for whatever reason.

Mr. Teddy Taylor (Southend, East)

In the case of licences issued in respect of a member State, surely my hon. Friend is not suggesting that the regulation applies to France's overseas territories, such as French Guiana, as well.

Mrs. Chalker

If the holder has a French licence and has been affected by the standards of the French licensing system, I believe that it does. However, I shall check, and when I wind up I shall reply fully to my hon. Friend.

Mr. Douglas Hogg (Grantham)

rose—

Mrs. Chalker

I think it will help if I finish the explanation, and then I shall answer questions. Otherwise, the explanation will not hold together very well.

Regulation 4 is a technical provision, designed to avoid any discrepancy over rights to drive during the first year of residence between our existing legislation, which concerns Great Britain, and the directive, which applied to the United Kingdom. Perhaps I may add in parenthesis that, subject to parliamentary approval of the present regulations which apply to Great Britain, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will lay a similar instrument which will come into force subject to the negative resolution procedure.

The remaining regulations cover the grant of British licences to those who request an exchange and have surrendered a Community licence. For the ordinary licences issued in the name of the Secretary of State for Transport at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Centre, Swansea, the provision is in regulation 2. The wording there deals with the grant of licences for the British groups which most nearly correspond to the categories for which the foreign licence is valid, and for the grant of those additional groups which automatically go with certain groups on the British licence. For instance, as the holder of a licence to drive a car, I may also ride a moped. Community exchange applicants will be treated in the same way. In other words, when they exchange their car driving licence for our car driving licence that will also permit them to ride a moped in the United Kingdom and elsewhere on a British licence.

The procedure for grant of vocational licences is covered in regulations 5 and 6. Essentially, these applicants have to meet the conditions which apply to our own people who are seeking their first full vocational licence. They must first have an ordinary licence—what we generally call a car licence. They must also produce the medical certificate. As a Community applicant they must meet two special conditions. First, the licence which they have surrendered must be valid for heavy goods or large passenger vehicles as the case may be. Second, they must produce evidence, which will, if necessary, be crosschecked by the independent licensing authority in the traffic area, of the vehicles which they have actually driven, with goods or on passenger services, over significant periods in the recent past before becoming resident in Britain.

Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)

What about registration numbers?

Mrs. Chalker

The hon. Gentleman asks about registration numbers. This would not be effective, because registration numbers might change in some countries from vehicle to vehicle. The proof that they must give—to which I shall come in a moment—will be from a former employer, or, if they are owner-drivers, they will have to give us proof, and if we are doubtful of their driving they simply will not get the British vehicle licence. That is one of the things on which we are working at present to ensure that people meet the safety standards which we believe it is vital to maintain.

Mr. Douglas Hogg

The Minister knows that in the United Kingdom a licence can be endorsed and the totting up procedure applied. What will happen if a Community driver who has several disqualifications on the Community licence applies for an exchange in order to hold a United Kingdom licence? Will his United Kingdom licence be free of blemish, or is there a provision to carry forward the endorsements from, say, the German licence to the United Kingdom licence?

Mrs. Chalker

That is a complicated matter to which I intended to come. Penalties put on a licence in another country cannot apply to a licence here. However, if the licence from the other country is not valid here, for obvious reasons, the holder would not be granted a British licence in exchange. As my hon. Friend well knows, we cannot make British law apply in other countries, just as they cannot make their law apply in Britain. I shall return to that point, because it is slightly different in some circumstances.

The periods for which foreign persons must have been driving a heavy goods or passenger service vehicle in the recent past are defined in the regulations. They must have been driving a heavy goods or passenger service vehicle for six months in the previous 18 months, or for one year in the previous three years.

The licensing authorities will grant licences only on proof of that minimum and recent experience and only for the class of heavy goods or passenger service vehicle in which the applicant has that proven experience. That is the point that I made to the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours).

I should like to enlarge on the procedure and safeguards. My right hon. Friend and I are keenly aware that we must get this right in order to maintain the standards which we believe are so important in Britain. Our predecessors agree with us on that.

Our concern has been reflected in the industry and on both sides of the House. We all want to ensure the maintenance of the high standards which we have established since 1970 for entry to the heavy goods vehicle drivers' scheme, and of the similarly high standards for driving buses.

When the draft regulations were circulated to representative organisations, two of them made comments on this aspect—the Transport and General Workers Union and the Bus and Coach Council. I have had a helpful meeting with Mr. Jack Ashwell of the TGWU to discuss the matter. There is, of course, no question of going back on the directive, which has been a firm Community commitment from Britain since it was adopted nearly two years ago. The present draft regulations merely give effect in British law to what was negotiated in the Community, but the administrative procedures for the issue of vocational licences are vital and I was glad to discuss that with Mr. Ashwell. The industry and unions are contributing to our decisions and procedures from their knowledge of the ways in which these matters are run in the other member States, and for that I am most grateful.

Vocational licences are the responsibility of the statutorily independent licensing authorities in the traffic areas. The basic procedure we envisage is that the applicant must get a certificate of his experience in driving lorries or buses filled in by his former employers. If there is any doubt, that can be checked with the firm concerned, and further verification will be possible through the contacts which have been established by the Department of Transport with the Administrations in the other nine Community States.

The TGWU has pointed out that many vocational drivers in France and in other countries are self-employed. I assure the House that the licensing authorities will not accept their unsupported claims. Adequate evidence of the vehicles that they have driven will have to be produced in all cases. The licensing authorities have confirmed that all applications will be rigorously examined. I am sure that, unless a case is absolutely clear-cut, they will interview the applicant personally. This is obviously not an easy matter for the licensing authorities. However, we are not talking of large numbers as these people must be resident here. They should be able to cope with this minor difficulty.

The authorities have great experience of dealing with the variety of cases that arise in the licensing of drivers and operators, and I am sure that we can rely upon them. Of course, if within a year of coming here—or 18 months in the case of HGV and PSV licence applications—drivers have not applied, they will, as the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Scott) said, have to take the test. The extension does not continue for an indefinite period.

It is obvious that experience in handling these Community exchange cases will have to be shared through the policy division at the headquarters of the Department and with outside bodies that have experience of these matters. The Transport and General Workers Union has assured me that :it will give me the benefit of any information in its possession which may help to assess claims for licences

Mr. Campbell-Savours

Is a similar order being placed before other Parliaments in the Community? Does the hon. Lady believe that British nationals operating abroad will be able to abuse the system in those countries?

Mrs. Chalker

It is up to each national Parliament to follow its rules, which obviously vary between the Bundestag, the Assembly and this House. Each country has its own rules, and each national Parliament must approve the way in which it will operate the Community directive, which everyone has accepted.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether British drivers going abroad would seek to abuse standards in other countries. I sincerely hope that they will not. Of course, other countries have construction and use regulations in the same way as we do. The abuses of which the hon. Gentleman may be thinking are more properly dealt with by construction and use regulations in this country than by the direct exchange of the licence. If British drivers decide to live in another country, after a year they will require the licence of that other Community country.

We would very much welcome any information from the industry. Minds are not closed about administrative procedures, and I hope that they never will be. There may be other information which has not yet been given to the Department, despite the consultation period, that would be welcome and of benefit to all.

The directive represents an essential step in removing obstacles to free movement within the Community arising from different national driving licences. It is also a positive force for raising licensing standards. I hope that hon. Members will appreciate that much work has been done on this issue since it was first mooted in 1973.

This has especially been achieved by laying down minimum requirements for the driving test. We now look forward to further harmonisation. That should be welcomed, because it will be made very clear that this must be a process of raising standards all round in the longer term.

There will be no question of making our driving tests easier. Indeed, they are generally recognised to be among the most rigorous and effectively administered in the Community. It is in this context, and in the belief that we can achieve a real upgrading of standards, that I regard the liberalisation of licence issue, for which the present regulations provide, as extremely important.

I know that hon. Members will ask detailed questions and I shall do my best to answer them. I believe that we are taking the right step. Those who go to work in another Community country and apply for an exchange of licence within a year of arrival, should be able to obtain such a licence if they meet the standards. By so doing, the offences that they might commit in that country will be shown on that licence. If a driver from abroad commits an offence here, we can register that offence on our computer; but, if he does not have a British licence, we cannot register it on a licence, as my hon. Friend will accept.

Mr. Terence Higgins (Worthing)

I think the point being made is whether, where there are endorsements—for example, on a German licence and the holder applies for a licence here—those endorsements will then appear on the British licence. If the whole argument concerns freedom of movement and interchange, there should be some mechanism for bringing that about. I understand that we cannot apply German law here and that our law cannot be applied in Germany, but I see no reason why such a mechanism should not be devised. Otherwise, someone who, on our totting-up basis, was due to be disqualified, could then get a completely clear run again.

Mrs. Chalker

I understand fully what my right hon. Friend is saying, but at the moment there is no means of doing that within the directive. It may be that there is another way in which it can be achieved, but within these regulations it is not possible.

Despite the fact that the regulations give some concern to hon. Members, I commend them to the House, because I believe that the issue is not nearly as broad as hon. Members are painting it. It is for those who take up residence and work here for more than one year. The regulations have a status in all the countries—

Mr. Douglas Hogg

Before the Minister sits down, will she tell us whether there is any reason why the directive should not have been introduced in such a way as to enable the United Kingdom authority, on the grant of a United Kingdom licence, say, to a German driver, to make on the United Kingdom licence an endorsement similar to the kind that the German licence carried?

Mrs. Chalker

With the discrepancies between the various national laws, I think that would be impracticable, but I shall take advice about it.

10.38 pm

Mr. Roger Stott (Westhoughton)

The intervention of the right hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) during the Minister's concluding remarks revealed a significant problem that is inherent in the regulations, and I shall return to it in my concluding remarks.

My approach to the debate is coloured by my experience of legislation for heavy goods vehicle licensing. Eighteen months ago, during my baptism of fire on the Opposition Front Bench, the Government introduced a statutory instrument which allowed under-aged Service men without the appropriate qualifications to drive heavy goods vehicles and public service vehicles during a state of emergency. I argued at that time—I think rightly—that the measure was unacceptable for several reasons, but primarily my objections, and those of my hon. Friends, to the introduction of the instrument were that it was not in the best interests of road safety. With that in mind, I approach this statutory instrument with some circumspection, particularly in regard to the way in which it is drafted.

We in the United Kingdom, as the Minister well recognises, have developed a system of issuing licences to our own nationals where the people concerned have demonstrated by their experience, and by the passing of certain heavy goods vehicle tests, that they are competent to drive various classes of heavy goods vehicles. Some vehicles are potentially lethal if driven by inexperienced or unqualified drivers.

Sir Anthony Meyer (Flint, West)

Any vehicle is potentially lethal.

Mr. Stott

Indeed, but we ensure that our own nationals pass certain degrees of competence before we issue them with a licence to drive heavy articulated vehicles, for example. Anyone who has not passed such tests is in possession of a lethal vehicle. The system of heavy goods vehicle tests was designed by the House in 1970 to protect the public and had an underlying concern for road safety.

My right hon. and hon. Friends and I and, I suspect, Conservative Members, would not wish to see any diminution of the stringent but necessary regulations that govern the issuing of these licences. The instrument that is before us is putting into effect the draft European Community directive that was debated in the House on 4 November 1980. My right hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) argued cogently during that debate that the draft directive and its contents would result ultimately in the diminution of the standards in the United Kingdom for the issuing of heavy goods vehicle licences. He moved an amendment which read provided that it"— the proposal for Community driving licences— does not commit the United Kingdom Parliament to enact legislation…enabling the issuing of HGV and PSV licences to EEC member state nationals who have not passed driving tests of a standard equivalent to current United Kingdom tests". I have re-read the debate and I believe that my right hon. Friend's arguments are still valid. The instrument before us as drafted—the Minister must recognise this—has not allayed the fears of my right hon. and hon. friends and myself, and I suspect that it has not allayed the fears of Conservative Members. It has certainly not allayed the fears of the Transport and General Workers Union. The Minister will be aware that Mr. Jack Ashwell, the national secretary of the TGWU road traffic committee, wrote to the Secretary of State on 14 July in response to the publication of this instrument.

It is worth while quoting from that letter, to establish Mr. Ashwell's objections formally on the record. He wrote: Having read the Draft Statutory Instrument with particular reference to 'Provisions supplementary to Regulation 2', page 3, I cannot accept the provision outlined therein can be deemed to be special safeguards. The methods of issuing appropriate licences on the Continent are, in the main, a farce. In France recently, the Government by decree replaced the C licence by a D licence. According to my French colleagues making the report, this means that the new D licence holder is authorised to drive either heavy goods or public service vehicles and it is questionable whether the holder had previous experience in both occupations. They are concerned"— that is the French trade unions— as to what will happen in September with school buses, as this is mainly undertaken by part-time workers and employment will be on the basis of the licence held and not on experience. Your second provision"— that is the Government's second provision as to proof of recent driving experience is not in accord with the British method which decided that heavy goods drivers were issued with the appropriate licence. Firstly, there was a requirement for the employer to complete Form DLGIB or in the case of more than one employer then a separate certificate had to be presented. This certified that the driver concerned had been in the habit"— that is the word used in this instrument of driving heavy goods vehicles for six months between 2 February 1969 and 1 February 1970. Within that period the driver had to show the necessary qualifying period. Mr. Ashwell went on to say that the qualifications required to obtain the same kind of licence under this statutory instrument are not the same as those required by a British national to obtain a heavy goods vehicle licence in this country.

The Secretary of State responded to Mr. Ashwell's letter on 4 August. That response, give or take one or two qualifying sentences, was basically what the Under-Secretary of State has told the House this evening. But that response provoked a further response from the general secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union, Mr. Moss Evans. I apologise for reiterating this correspondence, but it is important.

Mr. Evans replied to the Secretary of State by saying: The statement by Norman Fowler"— the previous Secretary of State— in November 1980 was known to us but where we differ is not regarding the directive but as to the safeguards you announced This was a reference to the safeguards announced by the previous Secretary of State for Transport and by the present Secretary of State.

The reply went on: Our officers who are members of the various Community Transport Committees are knowledgeable as to the practices that prevail in the individual member states and are in direct contact with their colleagues in other road transport unions. Your direct reference to our Mr. Ashwell and his reference to the French C and D licences: Mr. Ashwell was in attendance at the road transport unions' meeting in Brussels when his French colleague made the statement. There could be no misunderstanding regarding translation as you are aware how the meetings are conducted. His French colleague's concern was shared by other French trade union officials attending the meeting. Regarding the specific points made in Mr. Ashwell's communication as to safeguards and my reason for requesting an urgent meeting with you, we are more than concerned with regard to the necessary safeguards, you have referred to. As the Community consists of ten member states only a minority have any resemblance as to licensing and enforcement. The French system of enforcement, notwithstanding you: information."— that is notwithstanding the information given by the Under-Secretary— is a charade, and laws contrary to your official view are not enforced. Our National Officers have on a number of occasions, met with your officials and your predecessors with regard to the non-enforcement of laws in Europe. Many Community drivers are owner drivers arid have been so for many years. The law in respect: of owner drivers passes them by. We reiterate your safeguards cannot protect the British public"— which requires that those safeguards that are applied in the United Kingdom are maintained. We therefore request a further meeting with the Minister to discuss the current problems, which we consider to be important.

Mr. Douglas Hogg

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the idea that lies behind the sentiment that he has been reading out is that, in some respects, French drivers of heavy goods vehicles are less safe then their British counterparts? If he accepts that that is what is implied, has he any evidence to show that accident rates in France, Germany or anywhere else for drivers of heavy goods vehicles are higher than in the United Kingdom?

Mr. Stott

The answer is "No".

Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)

rose—

Mr. Stott

I shall give way in a moment. I can answer only one question at a time.

I have no direct evidence to answer the question of the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg).

Our nationals may apply for a heavy goods vehicle licence, but there a7e a number of licences—A, B, C and D. To get these licences, one must have certain qualifications. The highest, A licence, demands the most qualifications. Not only must one pass the test but one must have the necessary experience. I contend that there is no one in the United Kingdom under the age of 23 with an A licence. I look to the Front Bench in case anyone wishes to take a message to the Minister. The applicant must have the experience of going through the D, C, and B licences to be issued with an A licence.

The hon. Member for Grantham asked whether there were any figures to compare the accident rate in the United Kingdom with that in Europe. I do not know whether there are. However, a British national driving with an A category heavy goods vehicle licence is a very experienced driver, has passed a number of tests, and has had the requisite number of years experience to get to that position. The House has to ask itself whether our European colleagues have the same experience as our nationals have for the same sort of licence.

Mr. Marlow

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman felt that I was trying to rush him. I was only trying to help him. Surely we do not have to produce accident figures, which everybody knows about. For example, France is very different from the United Kingdom, in that it has a much greater length of road and a much smaller density of traffic. Therefore, the level of accidents is not likely to be comparable to that of the United Kingdom.

Deaths from traffic accidents per thousand of the population in Germany are far greater than they are here. The carnage on the roads in Belgium is absolutely appalling. Must it not be that the standard of driving, the level of driving tests and the safeguards taken in those countries before people are allowed to drive are inadequate compared with ours?

Mr. Stott

I do not know whether the hon. Member for Grantham is relieved by the intervention of his hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow), who answered the question that he asked me. To thyself be true. I cannot confirm or deny the statistics that the hon. Member for Northampton, North has given the House. United Kingdom standards have been achieved after long experience, and no one would wish to see a diminution of them.

The Minister informed the House that she had had discussions with the Transport and General Workers Union and that it was reasonably helpful. I had a telephone conversation this evening with Mr. Ashwell, who is the appropriate Transport and General Workers Union official for the subject that we are discussing. He said that he had discussed the matter with the Minister and that she had said that if he had any alternative to the Government's proposals, perhaps he would let her know.

Mrs. Chalker

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not intend to mislead the House, but I discussed with Mr. Ashwell the fact that the administrative arrangements for the verification of experience of PSV or heavy goods vehicle driving abroad needed to be as tight as possible. He told me that the trade union movement had a great deal of experience that might not have come to our knowledge or been passed on by the Departments of Transport of other countries. Mr. Ashwell said that they would pass on their experience, which was of the adminstrative type that did not affect the regulations before us, which seek to implement the directive that was agreed two years ago.

Mr. Stott

That is the chicken and the egg syndrome, is it not? If we approve the regulations this evening, I suspect that the provisions within the document will apply. I concede to the Minister that Mr. Ashwell said that the trade union would write to its colleagues in Europe to see whether it would be possible to get the information that would be required by the traffic commissioners in the United Kingdom before issuing a British heavy goods vehicle licence to a resident Community national. The statutory instrument provides that the area traffic commissioners have to be satisfied that certain conditions and experience prevail and that the drivers have passed the appropriate standard of driving tests.

How are they to satisfy themselves that those people have achieved that standard? The Transport and General Workers Union has written to its European colleagues and asked them—the document has been translated and sent to the 10 Community members—to pose three questions. They are the questions that I suspect will be asked of an applicant by the area traffic commissioners.

The first question was raised by the hon. Member for Grantham. Would it be possible to check the common application for a driving licence in respect of the declaration of certain medical conditions? Everyone in Europe has to complete such an application. When one completes an application for a heavy goods vehicle licence, one must declare whether one suffers from proscribed medical conditions. Would it be possible for the area traffic commissioners to discover that information?

Secondly, would it be possible to check whether an applicant for a British heavy goods vehicle licence had convictions in respect of drivers' hours? In the United Kingdom we are stringent about drivers' hours, as we should be. Could the traffic commissioner discover whether an applicant had been in breach of or convicted for such offences in the depths of Bavaria?

The third question is whether one could discover whether the applicant was in the habit—the Under-Secretary of State should not turn up her nose at that word, because it appears in the instrument—of driving certain classes of vehicles during the time laid down in the regulations. How can an area traffic commissioner find out whether someone who lives in the shadow of the Acropolis has the appropriate experience in driving a class A heavy goods vehicle between Athens and Agridheon?

Mr. Campbell-Savours

I add strength to my hon. Friend's point by saying that within most member countries of the EEC the police and the internal Ministries of Transport cannot monitor transport in the same effective way as the British authorities do. One reason is that many transport officers are not as committed as we are to transport safety. Another is the corruption in transport—I am not anti-European—whereby people can ease themselves out of difficulty by bribery. If that is the way in which they conduct their affairs, we cannot accept their word on such important matters.

Mr. Stott

My hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) points out a fundamental flaw in the instrument. Mr. Ashwell and his colleagues in the TKWU await replies from their European colleagues, but I am not satisfied that the information required by the area traffic commissioners when they issue British HGV licences to European nationals will be forthcoming, for all the reasons that I and by hon. Friend have given.

The Under-Secretary of State has not provided much evidence for the regulations. I know that the hon. Lady is committed to the continuation and enhancement of road safety, but she has been swept along by the European tide of harmonisation, which is clearly not practicable. These regulations represent one more penalty that the United Kingdom has to pay for membership of the EEC. People try to standardise everything. Our standards are superior to those in the rest of Europe. When it comes to issuing HGV licences, our standards are superior to those in Europe.

I cannot see why the House should approve legislation that will seriously weaken those standards. The Minister, with all her sincerity, has not convinced my right hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness or anyone else that the checks, balances and safeguards that she claims to be in the measure exist. If we enact this legislation we shall get a bad deal. Although we shall not vote against it, I register the fact that we have very serious complaints about the way in which the issue has been dealt with.

11.5 pm

Mr. Teddy Taylor (Southend, East)

Everyone will agree that the Minister introduced the regulations with great charm, but she did not introduce them with the enthusiasm that she usually has for her other tasks. Rightly or wrongly, I gained the impression that her heart was not in them. The reason is obvious. We are not just discussing another mad piece of Community harmonisation, although we have seen plenty of that. We are debating something that could affect as many lives as the number lost in the Falkland Islands. Britain is strong on and proud of its high standards of road safety. It is outrageous that we should discuss a measure that will hand over British HGV licences to people from Greece and elsewhere, who are resident here, on the basis of information supplied by them and supported by those from their country to the effect that they have passed comparable examinations or have comparable experience.

The Minister said that the regulations represented a movement towards freedom and liberty. I cannot understand how she could suggest that. This is simply a move towards further harmonisation. If we want to ease the movement of drivers and standards between countries, we could simply make bilateral arrangements with other countries in which we accepted that the standards and principles were the same. It need not apply only to members of the EEC. This is a further sickening example not of freedom, but of harmonsation within the EEC and of discrimination against other countries that are our allies and true friends.

Would not it have been far better if Britain had embarked on bilateral agreements, perhaps with some European and Commonwealth countries, in which our licences would be accepted in the other country, and its licences accepted in Britain? That would be infinitely more sensible. If the Minister believes that standards are comparable within the Common Market and that they might improve, could we not achieve the same aim by accepting licences for longer than the temporary period now allowed? Why do we have to go through the nonsense of giving British driving licences to those who have not passed British tests?

How on earth can the Minister suggest that the measure will lead to higher standards? It is only the first step towards 1986 when, under the directive, we are obliged to move towards a harmonised European driving licence. When that happens, the British Parliament will be unable to raise the standards of British tests unless we can all get together and agree.

Mrs. Chalker

British standards will apply in Britain regardless. If they happen to be higher than other standards, so be it. I refer my hon. Friend to articles 6 and 8. If there is doubt, Community countries have the right to refuse to exchange a licence and to make a person take the national test of the country concerned.

Mr. Taylor

I appreciate that. The Government want to control public expenditure and reduce manpower. How will it be possible to check whether a Greek driver has experience of driving HGVs or whether a French private driver has enough experience? Will the Department accept the words of French or Greek magistrates, or will it become involved in checking back to the country of origin?

Sir Anthony Meyer (Flint, West)

I find it almost impossible to believe half of what my hon. Friend says. Britain is swarming with foreign motorists and lorry drivers, none of whom has taken a British test. Relatively few people will apply for British licences. In any case, what power does a British court have to endorse a foreign licence?

Mr. Taylor

I accept that a substantial number of foreign motorists drive on our roads. When I go to Portugal on holiday, I can drive using a British licence. I would encourage that. I have no objection to reciprocity in this respect. However, I should object to a plan which was simply a further move towards harmonisation in the EEC using measures which do not apply to other parts of the world.

The regulations are a further step towards creeping harmonisation which is unnecessary, bureaucratic and costly. They will involve a further division between ourselves and the Commonwealth. Recently we decided by regulation that Health Service charges in hospitals shall not apply to people from Common Market countries but shall apply to people from the Commonwealth. We decided that full university fees shall be charged to Commonwealth students but not to Common Market students, who are to be totally subsidised. We are moving step by step to the stage when Commonwealth citizens have no extra rights in Britain and Common Market citizens have much greater rights than our friends who deserve our help.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

Does the hon. Gentleman envisage that a British citizen could use the arrangement that we are discussing to secure a driving licence abroad, having failed to obtain one legitimately in the United Kingdom?

Mr. Taylor

In theory, but not in practice, it would be possible for a British driver who fails his test here to move to the Continent to obtain a French licence, return and obtain a British driving licence. That could also apply to HGV licences. But :hat was not my main argument.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

Would the hon. Gentleman ask the Under-Secretary to reply directly to that? If what we have described is possible, it is important.

Mr. Taylor

I am worried that we shall have to rely on the principles and application being the same throughout the EEC. I have no doubt that the various EEC Parliaments will pass splendid laws calling for the same standards, but I am sad to say that my experience of the EEC leads me to believe that, although its members may pass laws, they do not always implement them. For example, we all agreed on fishing quotas, but at least two countries ignore them. Some other countries do not have our commitment to proper, logical and consistent administration.

Will it be possible for a British national to go to another EEC country, where our principles of honesty and integrity do not apply in some areas, obtain an HGV licence and consequently be able to return here and get a British licence? The regulations are a major mistake. They are a move, not towards freedom, but towards unnecessary harmonisation and I believe that they will result in danger for the road travellers of this country and will remove from us the right to issue licences only to those who have passed the British test.

The Under-Secretary asked what was the alternative. Surely the alternative is that if we are satisfied that another country applies similar standards in the way that we apply them, we should accept its licences as valid here for a longer period, but we should not give licences to those from Greece or elsewhere who have not passed our test.

On the question of logic, how does it make sense that someone from French Guiana can come here and obtain a British licence, but a resident of British Guiana is not able to do that? It will be helpful if the Under-Secretary will answer that question. She might also tell us whether the same applies to other overseas territories.

When we were discussing the European Communities Bill there were several specific references to Gibraltar. Regulation 4 says that "Great Britain" should include Britain, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar. I understood that there was a legal difficulty in Gibraltar licences applying here, but it seems that Continental licences will have to apply in Gibraltar. That seems an unusual position.

The proposal is a major mistake. The numbers involved may be small initially, but when the Community expands, and particularly if the recession and problems continue in Greece and Spain, the regulations could prove to be bad and dangerous.

11.17 pm

Mr. Douglas Hogg (Grantham)

The criticisms of the regulations by my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) are extravagant. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) that, bearing in mind the number of foreign drivers on our roads already, it is nonsense to suppose that the regulations will add significantly to road hazards in this country.

The premise that underlies the arguments of my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East is the same as that which underlies the arguments of my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow)—total hostility to the EEC. That clouds the judgment of my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East whenever he considers EEC regulations.

Whenever I hear my hon. Friend speak in the House or have the misfortune to hear him speak on the radio, I hear endless hatred for the EEC which is unjustified by the facts. He makes bold assertions about corruption in other countries and about lower standards and incompetence, but he is never able to justify those observations. I have had enough of it. My hon. Friend is blinded by prejudice and it distorts his judgment.

However, there are criticisms to be made of the regulations, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will forgive me if I return to a point that I made when I intervened twice in her speech.

I believe that the regulations will give rise to one anomaly. I greatly welcome the support given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) to this view. As the Minister knows, in the United Kingdom a driver convicted of certain classes of driving offence has the convictions endorsed on his licence. If he has a number of convictions within a prescribed period, he will be disqualified under the totting-up procedure. The justification for that is, of course, road safety.

Let us consider the position of the holder of an EEC licence—French, German or Italian; it matters not. He may be an extremely bad driver with a substantial number of convictions in his country of origin and the endorsements on his licence would bring him within the totting-up procedure if he were a United Kingdom driver. What happens if he applies in this country for an exchange?

The Minister has said that if a driver from an EEC country applies for an exchange with a view to holding a United Kingdom licence, he will receive that licence free of any endorsement. I find that somewhat disturbing. It is certainly contrary to justice that if that EEC driver receives a United Kingdom licence and then commits an offence which in other circumstances would merit a totting-up disqualification, he will not be disqualified because his United Kingdom licence is free of blemish, albeit that in Germany or Italy he has a whole string of relevant convictions.

Sir Anthony Meyer

I am following my hon. Friend's argument closely, but, in the absence of proposals such as we are now discussing, the driver would be using his own national licence. Can my hon. Friend think of any mechanism whereby a foreign licence could be endorsed for a traffic offence committed in this country? Otherwise, the driver will continue to drive on his foreign licence, which will carry penalties insufficient to debar him from driving here, and there will be no mechanism for recording further penalties on that licence.

Mr. Hogg

My hon. Friend makes an ingenious debating point, but it does not go to the root of the matter. We are dealing with people who are normally resident in the United Kingdom. The implication is that they wish to earn their livelihood in this country. That being so, we are dealing with people who wish to hold a United Kingdom licence as a condition precedent to work. Therefore, we should have some system whereby, when an application is made by an EEC driver with a bad record and endorsements on his licence, the Minister or the Department should have power either to refuse him a United Kindom licence or to order that comparable endorsements be placed on his United Kingdom licence.

My hon. Friend the Minister also made an ingenious debating point when she replied that it was not possible to equate a particular class of offence in, say, Germany with, for example, the United Kingdom offence of careless driving and that therefore justice could not be done. I disagree. There are a limited number of offences that one can commit when driving. One can drive when drunk, drive too fast or drive carelessly. Offences could easily be banded so that particular offences in Germany were deemed to be comparable with similar United Kingdom offences.

Therefore, although I broadly support the regulations, I believe that the Minister should reserve to herself or to her Department a residual power either to refuse a Community driver a licence or to place some comparable endorsement on the United Kingdom licence when granted.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

The hon. Gentleman has knowledge of legal matters. Will he turn his attention to what might happen, and what equity there would be, if a resident in the European Community who was tackled by a police officer for a contravention of the law was subject to a roadside fine for an offence which might be endorsable or point endorsable in Britain? Does not that illustration draw attention to the inequity in the matter?

Mr. Hogg

If I were the Minister, I would say that I would reply to that question in writing.

11.25 pm

Mrs. Chalker

I shall seek to answer the many and varied questions that have come tumbling out in the debate. I apologise to the House if my initial comments were unclear. I do not think it was really that but rather the suspicions that lay in the backs of minds of hon. Members. I fear that tonight we have returned to debating the principle of the matter, although that was not unexpected. However, we decided the principle two years ago. We are now putting through the regulations with the safeguards that have been negotiated during the intervening period.

We must put the matter in proportion. As my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) said, we are discussing a relatively small number of people. I do not want to discuss the statistics—such as the 45,000 applications a day dealt with by the DVLC. For vocational licences, we are talking about a couple of hundred cases a year, which is not excessive. The regulation really covers those who go to live and work abroad, and I do not anticipate that there will be enormous changes in the near future.

I do not know whether hon. Members realise that the largest group of beneficiaries of the directive throuh these regulations will probably be the dependants of British Service men and women who have been on a tour of duty in Germany. Many of them have taken the British driving test in Germany with a military driving examiner, and received the British Forces Germany driving licence. As the law at present stands, the Secretary of State has no power to exchange that for a British driving licence when the family return to this country. Rather smaller numbers of people move here, but the main group are dependants of British Service men abroad.

Mr. Marlow

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. First, she said that we had approved the principle of the subject. Would not it be correct to say that we actually took note of the principle in the Chamber? Secondly, she spoke of the dependants of British Service families in Germany. Should we want to change the law in favour of them, we could do that without going through the wretched rigmarole which she is putting to us. Finally, because the voting of the House is obviously dependent on this, could she reassure the House that in no way will people be allowed to drive in the United Kingdom whose country's standard of driving test is not as good as the standard of driving test that they would have taken in the United Kingdom, and that anybody who has committed offences in other European countries which would render them disqualified to drive in this country will not be permitted to drive here? If she cannot say that neither of those things will happen, there is no way that the House should pass the measure.

Mrs. Chalker

In the course of my remarks I shall attempt to deal with questions that were posed earlier by hon. Members. Serving officers abroad, under the present rules as I understand them, have a licence akin to the German driving licence, although they have taken a British driving test with a military driving examiner. That may be an anomaly in our law, but we do not only have Service men in Germany, although the main group of beneficiaries will be the dependants of British Service men abroad. I make that point because during the debate there has been a feeling that many hundreds of people would seek to evade the standards that we hold dear in Britain and that this regulation would allow that to happen.

I want to deal first with the points that were put by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Stott), anti I shall take a little time in doing so, although time is exceedingly short. At the beginning of his speech, in telling us of an experience some months ago, he asked about the minimum ages. He said that no one under the age of 23 drives the biggest heavy goods vehicles in this country. If a young driver has been on the young drivers' trainee scheme, he could be as young as 21. It is not usual, I fully accept, but our age limits still apply in these regulations. It means that if people are registered on the young heavy goods vehicle drivers' scheme in this country working for employers, they can drive from the age of 18 as long as they remain on the training scheme. They cannot drive class 1 HGV vehicles unaccompanied under 21, even after they have passed the relevant test.

The Community driving licence exchange applicants will be subject to exactly the same requirements. There is no weakening, even if they could drive a similar vehicle at a younger age in one of the other countries. I reassure the hon. Gentleman on that. He spoke about buses in other circumstances, but as the matter affects these regulations I think that that is what he was saying.

Mr. Stott

I am grateful for the way in which the hon. Lady dealt with that issue. However, I did not raise that issue. I sought to make the point that in the United Kingdom we have a series of heavy goods vehicle tests, and it is unusual for people who drive heavy goods vehicles in the United Kingdom and who have an A licence to be below the age of 23. I made that remark in comparing the United Kingdom with the rest of Europe. It is quite possible under the regulations, as I read them, for people under the age of 22; to be issued with an A licence, if they prove to the area traffic commissioners that they have experience in driving those vehicles in Europe. That was the point that I sought to make.

Mrs. Chalker

If a person had to have six months' experience in the previous 18 months driving abroad, and be over here for about a year, I think that we would get from 21 to 23 in the time. I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman is right in making that assumption. Nothing that I have read leads me to the same conclusion. If I am wrong, we shall need to look at the application, but it does not alter the regulation before us.

I turn now to the discussion about Mr. Jack Ashwell, who I said had been extremely helpful. We have moved a considerable way from the letters of 14 July from Mr. Ashwell to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and the letter from Moss Evans on 12 August. At our meeting, it became clear that the information that had come forward was not exactly comparable in the letters. The hon Gentleman went to some trouble to read out the various points, but may I briefly say in the time that is available that we are fully aware that since 1970 we have had a very demanding HGV testing and licensing system, which was not matched in the Community at that time. The directive has called for minimum test standards for new licence holders. We have already had some improvements, and we shall push for further improvements.

I want to make a further comment on the correspondence. Before we will exchange any European licence for a British vocational licence, we shall insist that the applicant not only has the relevant foreign licence but can prove experience. Jack Ashwell says that he can give us the necessary information, and he has undertaken to ask questions—and has already done so—of his colleagues in Europe.

The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) and others have questioned whether verification can be achieved. That concerns not just the Opposition but also the Government and we are determined to achieve it. Achieving it is a matter of administrative detail. As I said when I opened the debate, if the traffic commissioners are not satisfied, if a doubt remains, they can refuse to exchange a licence and can insist upon the taking of the test. That is the safeguard. Without that safeguard I would not have been prepared to bring the regulations to the House.

Other points that were made with regard to this issue concerned medical checks and drivers' hours offences. An application must be accompanied by a medical form completed by a British doctor, just as is required of a British applicant for an HGV licence. If the foreign applicant, in the exchange of his foreign licence for a British one, does not meet our health standards, he will not receive that licence. That is why we have achieved article 8, which is far better than it was at the beginning of the deliberations on this issue.

In order to get a foreign HGV licence exchanged in the first place for an ordinary British licence and then to apply for the HGV licence, the applicant must have a valid HGV licence of the other country. The vocational application form asks questions about driving conduct. If there is any problem about that, the licensing authorities will have to investigate. That is obviously a safeguard if there has been such a difficulty in driving abroad.

With regard to the question of experience, which I have mentioned several times, the signed statements will not be accepted without verification. That is why we have welcomed the help which has been offered in the first instance by the T and GWU but also by others.

I turn to the slightly knotty problem which my right hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) and my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg) were, I think I can fairly say, chasing me about: can endorsements on foreign licences be transferred to United Kingdom licences under these regulations? I regret to say that the differences in law between the 10 member countries make it impractical to assume that an offence, say in Germany or Greece, is identical to an offence in Britain. The House would object strongly if one of our number tried to propose that all law, and the way in which we dealt with it, should be identical across the Community. It simply could not be. However, a driver disqualified abroad will not have his licence available for surrender in Britain. If it is a serious offence which has removed the licence abroad—as so many of the serious offences concerning HGV matters do—he has nothing to surrender. The surrender of a valid licence is the prerequisite for interviewing and considering an application. That is covered by article 8(1).

Mr. Higgins

My hon. Friend added the words "Under these regulations" to what I had originally asked, which was whether there was any reason why the endorsement on the foreign licence could not be added to our licence. I did not say that. Is there any reason why, in issuing one licence in exchange for the other, we should not note on it what the offences are and, according to British law, simply set out as classification where they would stand on the totting-up procedure? If they subsequently went over the limit, they could be disqualified.

Mrs. Chalker

There is no provision in these regulations for doing so. I simply do not know, without conferring with the Home Office, whether that would be practicable. We could not put the endorsement on a foreign licence on to our licence. As my right hon. Friend said, it would have to be made comparable, but I shall consider what he has said. I cannot see that we could do it at present.

Perhaps the one saving aspect is that if a foreign driver, driving on his foreign licence, has been convicted of offences in this country, and has been disqualified or had his licence endorsed, that information would be notified by the courts to the DVLC and held on the computer. Therefore, in any subsequent application to exchange a foreign licence against which the endorsement or disqualification was enacted, we would have the record at Swansea of what had happened and no licence would be granted. That is a safeguard, and it would enable us to refuse a licence if an exchange application were made.

Mr. Higgins

That would be true if the person were "over the top" in terms of totting up. But will the information on the Swansea computer appear on the replacement licence?

Mrs. Chalker

I cannot think of any reason why it should not. In fact, I am certain that it could appear, and I shall ensure administratively that it does. If it is a British offence, for which a British penalty has been imposed, it should be shown on the British licence if it is exchanged. Obviously, if a person is "over the top", he will not get a British licence in exchange for the foreign licence.

Both my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) and the hon. Member for Workington asked about overseas licences. My hon. Friend asked about French overseas licences. The French colonies are not covered by the directive and, therefore, are not affected by the regulations. However, some French overseas departments grant a valid French licence. If a person from a French overseas department holds a valid French licence, he can apply for its exchange, but that licence must have been issued under French law in France. French Guiana does not come into that category.

Mr. Teddy Taylor

Is my hon. Friend saying that under these regulations a driver from French Guiana can get a British licence, whereas a British Guiana applicant cannot?

Mrs. Chalker

I have two minutes left. If a Frenchman from French Guiana holds a valid French licence, he can apply for exchange. If he holds any other licence not granted in France, he will not get an exchange.

I was asked about Commonwealth exchanges. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Fowler) said when he was Secretary of State for Transport, we are ready to consider extending arrangements for exchange of licences for cars where the standards in other countries are satisfactory, but we should need main legislation to achieve that.

We have no vires in these regulations to exchange Gibraltar licences for British licences. It is an internal matter, not one for regulations under the European Communities Act 1972. Gibraltar licence holders will be no worse off than now. They can drive here for up to a year without taking a test, and we shall take the next suitable opportunity to include provision for Gibraltar exchanges in the main legislation.

I was also asked about British nationals abroad. This depends entirely upon which test they have taken. If a man fails a test in Britain and subsequently passes a test in France and gets a valid French licence, he will be enabled by the directive to exchange it for a British licence. But the heavy goods vehicle driver will need a French licence for the relevant HGV group, plus proof of experience. It will be just as stringent for a person of British nationality who goes to live in France and subsequently takes a test there as it will be for a Frenchman. The point is that the application need be made only if the driving is to continue beyond a year. The French CI test for articulated vehicles is two hours, like our own HGV1 test.

I commend the regulations to the House and will write to those hon. Members whose points I have not been able to answer.

Question put:—

The House divided: Ayes 66, Noes 6.

Division No. 315]	[11.45 pm
AYES
Alexander, Richard	Aspinwall, Jack
Ancram, Michael	Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Bendall, Vivian	Monro, Sir Hector
Berry, Hon Anthony	Montgomery, Fergus
Blackburn, John	Neale, Gerrard
Boscawen, Hon Robert	Needham, Richard
Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)	Neubert, Michael
Brinton, Tim	Newton, Tony
Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n)	Osborn, John
Carlisle, John (Luton West)	Patten, Christopher (Bath)
Chalker, Mrs. Lynda	Percival, Sir Ian
Colvin, Michael	Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Cope, John	Rhodes James, Robert
Dorrell, Stephen	Sainsbury, Hon Timothy
Fairbairn, Nicholas	Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Fairgrieve, Sir Russell	Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Fox, Marcus	Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Garel-Jones, Tristan	Speller, Tony
Goodlad, Alastair	Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)
Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)	Stevens, Martin
Grist, Ian	Stradling Thomas, J.
Hamilton, Hon A	Thompson, Donald
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)	Viggers, Peter
Hunt, David (Wirral)	Waddington, David
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael	Waller, Gary
Knight, Mrs Jill	Watson, John
Lang, Ian	Wells, Bowen
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark	Wells, John (Maidstone)
Macfarlane, Neil	Wickenden, Keith
McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)	Wilkinson, John
Major, John	Wolfson, Mark
Marland, Paul
Mather, Carol	Tellers for the Ayes:
Meyer, Sir Anthony	Mr. Peter Brooke and
Mills, lain (Meriden)	Mr. Selwyn Gummer.

NOES
Canavan, Dennis	Winterton, Nicholas
Marlow, Antony
Parry, Robert	Tellers for the Noes:
Roberts, Allan (Bootle)	Mr. Bob Cryer and
Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)	Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Resolved, That the draft Driving Licences (Community Driving Licence) Regulations 1982, which were laid before this House on 22nd July, be approved.