§ Mr. Robert HughesI beg to move amendment No. 6, in page 3, line 29, leave out clause 3.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine)With this, it is convenient to take Government amendments Nos. 7, 8 and 9.
§ Mr. HughesIn Committee and briefly during debate on an earlier amendment, we canvassed the case against privatisation of the National Bus Company. I shall not rehearse those arguments other than to repeat and emphasise that no good can come to the NBC as a result of privatisation.
Having included in the Bill the power to give consent and to approve schemes for the transfer of assets, rights and liabilities, and for the setting up of subsidiaries with or without modification—thus allowing him great backdoor pressure—the Secretary of State now wishes to take the power to direct the NBC to do as he wishes. We have often been told—it was part of the Conservative Party's philosophy at the last general election—that the Government do not wish to interfere in the running of nationalised industries. It was said that their job was to ensure that the parameters for running a nationalised industry had been set and that they were simply that the industry should be run in its best interests and in the best commercial interests of the nation.
No one can say that it is in the best interests of the nation to interfere with the commercial judgments of the NBC. We seek to leave matters to the board—through consultations with the work force and local authorities—to decide the best method of running the industry. I am in favour of public enterprise, but if the board of a public undertaking should decide, in its best interests, in the interest of the best use of public money and in the best interests of the work force that part of the industry would be much better run by someone else, no one could sensibly object. If we tell the board that its members are people of commercial judgment, business acumen and knowledge of the industry and can run the industry for us—without day-to-day interference from the Minister—how can we now tell them that, although we allow them to do certain things, the Government can direct them to act against their wishes?
From the Bill, it is clear that there are several stages. At first, the company is allowed to do certain things. The scheme that is put up must then be examined by the Secretary of State, who will decide whether it is right or proper. He then has further powers. Clause 3 ensures that if the NBC decides that it is not in the company's best interests to dispose of National Express or the holiday side, the Secretary of State can tell the company to comply with his wishes.
§ Mr. Harry Greenway (Ealing, North)I do not want the hon. Gentleman to prolong his remarks. However, he has mentioned what the board and the work force might want, but he has not mentioned the passengers' interests. Will he embrace their interests in his remarks?
§ Mr. HughesI am glad that the hon. Gentleman should make that point and reinforce my argument. I hope that he will join us in the Lobby. It has been implicit in my 746 remarks that the company exists to provide a service for passengers. It is not there for any airy-fairy purpose. It is clear from the evidence that the disposal of certain NBC assets will be to the detriment of rural areas, where bus services already experience extreme difficulties.
What if the bus company tells the Secretary of State "We shall not dispose of National Express or the holiday interests because of their contribution to the company's integrated economy"? What if it says that it will not sell off property because it is against the interests of the passengers? Will the hon. Gentleman defend the Secretary of State if he replies "Never mind the passengers, the bus company or the logic behind the case. I have decided that you will sell these things"? If he does, he is denying everything on which he purported to stand during the general election.
10.45 pm
The clause is severe in its application. Subsection (2) states:
It shall be the duty of the Bus Company (notwithstanding any duty imposed on them by section 24(2) or (3) of the Transport Act 1968) to give effect to any directions given under this section".In other words, the Secretary of State is not only taking powers to direct the bus company to sell off, but he is taking powers to override statute. That is surely unprecedented.On the other hand, some hon. Members may argue that section 24(2) and (3) of the Transport Act 1968 are of no account and it does not matter if the Secretary of State overrides them. However, that section imposes a duty on the bus company to consult local authorities and others and to provide an integrated transport service. Yet at the end of the day the Secretary of State can say "Never mind what the statute says, never mind the duty imposed by Parliament. I, the Secretary of State, will simply write that off'.
That comes strange from the mouths of hon. Members who claim to be strong believers in democracy and Parliament. I cannot believe that any of them in their heart of hearts accept that the Secretary of State is above Parliament. But that is precisely what is happening in clause 3(2).
For those reasons, I hope that the Government will think again. I hope that they will allow the bus company to be run in the best interests of the passengers and on the best business advice that it can get. They should not interfere in the running of the business. Let the company get on with the job so that it can do the things that everyone wants to see done.
§ Mr. FryI declared my interest on Second Reading, and I do so again. I do not wish to detain the House for long.
I am pleased with the amendments. I believe that a major step forward is contained in amendment No. 8. The Government have at last realised that decisions taken nationally can have significant local effects. To sell off or denationalise National Express would have a serious effect on many of the services provided by many of the NBC subsidiaries, particularly those in the South of England.
§ Mr. Robert HughesI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. It allows me to point out that, in my anxiety to make progress, I failed to welcome Government amendments Nos. 7 to 9, which are concessions to the points that we made in Committee.
§ Mr. FryI am glad that there should be so much agreement across the Floor of the House.
Many of the existing stage carriage services still depend on a measure of cross-subsidisation, particularly from coach services run by the subsidiaries. Some of them, particularly in the South of England, run a profitable series of express coach and excursion services which, if cut back substantially, would have a drastic effect on the economy of a subsidiary company as a whole.
That could mean that the county council, which has responsibility for the oversight of public transport, could suffer a severe cut in services or have to ask for considerable extra money for public transport revenue support. Not all Governments are willing in the transport supplementary grant to give large amounts to county councils, because the cost could fall upon the ratepayer.
I thank the Government for the amendments that they have put forward. When they proceed, as presumably they will, to sell off or hive off those companies, I hope that they will take into account the effect upon the subsidiaries, not just upon the NBC as a whole, because that can be important. I ask the Government to bear that in mind subsequently when considering the TSG to the counties, because it could be affected by the change in the rules under which they run their coach and express services.
§ Mrs. ChalkerOpposition amendment No. 6 is not acceptable to the Government. We have made it clear repeatedly that we regard the powers of direction very much as reserve powers. We would much prefer to proceed by agreement, and we are confident that that will be possible. Since Second Reading a great deal of progress has been made on setting a new financial target and on taking forward work on separate accounts and on ideas for property development. That is ample evidence of the progress.
Nevertheless, we believe that the reserve powers provided in clause 3 are necessary. It is quite usual, and entirely proper, for a Government to take the powers that they need to secure the implementation of their policy, as approved by Parliament when a Bill is enacted. There are many other examples of such powers being taken—some of them in the very Acts that principally govern the activities of the National Bus Company. Hon. Members know them.
I am advised that those existing powers could not be used to secure the introduction of private capital into the NBC, since they were not enacted with that purpose in mind. But it is a clear illustration that the powers in clause 3 are far from new or revolutionary.
Moreover, the powers in clause 3 provide that the Secretary of State must consult the bus company before giving it any direction to exercise its powers under sections 1 and 2 of the Bill. So the NBC will have a formal opportunity—as well, no doubt, as many informal opportunities—to make representations about a proposed direction.
We have also tabled an amendment to the clause to provide that, before giving a direction, the Secretary of State must consult any county council in whose area a subsidiary covered by the proposed direction provides local bus services.
Therefore, we have added three further safeguards in amendments Nos. 7, 8 and 9 to fulfil the undertakings that I gave to the Opposition in Committee. We have made absolutely clear that we want to get the consultation right. 748 Since this part of the Bill was last considered, we have made substantial further progress. We have announced a new financial target for National Express and National Holidays in 1982—a contribution to the long-run unavoidable costs of £7 million. The NBC has put to us various proposals for arranging the involvement of private capital in the improvement and development of its properties. We shall look closely at those ideas. I have little doubt that we shall be able to agree amicably on a way forward.
What we have provided for in amendments Nos. 7, 8 and 9 is the fullest consultation, which was asked for. I am glad that the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) welcomed that, because it was in response to our debates.
I regret that I do not see why we should remove from the Bill the powers of direction contained in clause 3 when they have been necessary in every other piece of legislation. I hope that the House will reject amendment No. 6 but accept amendments Nos. 7, 8 and 9.
§ Mr. Robert HughesThe hon. Lady is always charming and repeats the fact that the powers under clause 3 are reserved——
§ Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson (Newbury)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. At what stage is a Back-Bench Member able to come into the debate? I tried to be called before my hon. Friend the Minister rose to speak, but I did not catch your eye. Is there any chance of my coming into the debate or am I precluded?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI am sure that the House will be delighted if the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson) catches my eye after the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes).
§ Mr. Robert HughesI hesitated as I saw that the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson) wished to speak. I thought that he had decided not to do so. That is why I rose to respond.
The Under-Secretary of State charmingly told us that the powers in clause 3 are reserve powers and that she would prefer to proceed by agreement. I am glad that she is undertaking the consultations encompassed in amendments Nos. 7 to 9. One would have thought that, since the Government were prepared to consult widely, account would be taken of the consultations and that, if the views canvassed during the consultations were opposed to the Government's proposals, the Government would not use any power of direction. There is an inconsistency that the Government have been unable to square either in Committee or on the Floor of the House.
I understand what the Minister said about access to private capital. Although it goes against the grain—my political philosophy is against private capital—in reality if private capital is genuinely being injected into an industry to help its development on a joint capital venture basis, which is agreed between the nationalised industry, in this case the National Bus Company, and private capital, I shall not object. It squares perfectly with what I have argued about the conduct of the business being left to the board of the NBC for the best possible benefit of the passengers.
The Opposition strongly object to the powers of direction taken by the Secretary of State to override statute. At the end of the debate, we intend press amendment No.6 to a Division.
§ Mr. Michael McNair-WilsonThank you for calling me, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I do not dispute the Government's need to take powers of direction. Nevertheless, I welcome their promise of consultation with the National Bus Company before they pursue clause 3 into some practical form.
We are all aware of the delicate position of bus services, especially the rural services. I am aware of the cross-subsidisation, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr, Fry) referred, between the profitable express services that are run by the NBC and the various rural services, such as those which serve my constituency.
The profits of holiday and express services provide between 10 and 12 per cent. of the subsidisation of rural operations. That being so, in any consultations with the NBC about privatisation some schemes must be worked out to ensure that the 10 to 12 per cent. comes from somewhere else if it is not to come from profits that are generated by the NBC. If that expense were to fall on the local authority, my constituents would wonder what benefit arising from privatisation had accrued to them.
If some of the services are privatised, there is a possibility that the NBC network will be damaged. It may be argued that that does not matter, so long as private services are successful and continue. But what if a private operator finds that the express service that he intended to run does not work out as successfully as he had planned? What happens if he then withdraws the service? Will there be a hole in the bus network, which is to the detriment of the passengers to whom I have referred, or have the Government some plans whereby such a hole can be repaired without undue cost?
The express services that are currently so profitable have already added so much to the NBC's revenue that it can claim that since the Transport Act 1980 it has expanded its coaching operations by 50 per cent. It is easy to imagine that that expansion would be available to other companies as well, but the 1980 Act has not brought forward a mass of private operators to run the NBC into the ground. Rather, they have stood back and waited to see what would happen.
Therefore, I support the Government's amendment to consult the NBC in the hope that that consultation will take full account, in considering any scheme, of the possibility that it might damage the existing network and, if unsuccessful, might leave us with a less good bus service than we currently possess.
§ 11 pm
§ Mrs. ChalkerI apologise for not having completely responded earlier to the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Fry). He asked for two assurances, arising in part from the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson).
My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough asked whether the Government would take into consideration the effect of privatisation on subsidiaries. The answer to that must be "Yes". He further asked whether we would take, into account the privatisation of subsidiaries in considering transport supplementary grant. Because the transport policies and programme of an area must take into account all the factors involved, it would be impossible to draw up 750 the TPP without taking account of what may have occurred as a result of previous cross-subsidisation of stage coach services.
I certainly intended no discourtesy in rising before my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury. I simply did not realise that he wished to speak, or I should have waited until after he had done so. I am glad that he welcomes the consultation. I understand his point about stage carriage services. If we can introduce into our bus operations private capital that will allow the overall system to be run better in the overall interests of the country, we should seek to do so and to find other ways to sort out the problems that may result with the stage carriage services.
The hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) suggested that the Secretary of State might fail to take account of the views expressed in the consultations. That is not possible. The consultation implies a legal obligation to take account of its results. That is what is contained in amendments Nos. 7, 8 and 9, which I hope that the House will approve.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 203, Noes 281.
753| Division No. 167] | [11.03 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abse, Leo | Dubs, Alfred |
| Adams, Allen | Duffy, A. E. P. |
| Allaun, Frank | Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. |
| Alton, David | Eadie, Alex |
| Anderson, Donald | Eastham, Ken |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | English, Michael |
| Ashton, Joe | Ennals, Rt Hon David |
| Atkinson, N. (H'gey) | Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Evans, John (Newton) |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Field, Frank |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd) | Fitch, Alan |
| Beith, A. J. | Flannery, Martin |
| Bennett, Andrew (St'kp't N) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Ford, Ben |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Forrester, John |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Brown, R. C. (N'castle W) | Freud, Clement |
| Brown Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Garrett, John (Norwich S) |
| Buchan, Norman | Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) |
| Callaghan,Jim(Midd't'n & P) | George, Bruce |
| Campbell, Ian | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Golding, John |
| Canavan, Dennis | Graham, Ted |
| Cant, R. B. | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) |
| Clark, Dr David (S Shields) | Hardy, Peter |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Cohen, Stanley | Haynes, Frank |
| Coleman, Donald | Healey, Rt Hon Denis |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll) |
| Cook, Robin F. | Home Robertson, John |
| Cowans, Harry | Huckfield, Les |
| Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill) | Hughes, Mark (Durham) |
| Crowther, Stan | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Cryer, Bob | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n) | Janner, Hon Greville |
| Dalyell, Tam | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Davidson, Arthur | John, Brynmor |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Davis, Terry (B 'ham, Stechf'd) | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Kerr, Russell |
| Dewar, Donald | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Dixon, Donald | Lamborn, Harry |
| Dobson, Frank | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Dormand, Jack | Leighton, Ronald |
| Douglas, Dick | Lestor, Miss Joan |
| Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) |
| Litherland, Robert | Rowlands, Ted |
| Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Sever, John |
| Lyon, Alexander (York) | Sheerman, Barry |
| McCartney, Hugh | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Short, Mrs Renée |
| McElhone, Frank | Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford) |
| McKay, Allen (Penistone) | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| McKelvey, William | Silverman, Julius |
| McNally, Thomas | Skinner, Dennis |
| McNamara, Kevin | Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark) |
| McTaggart, Robert | Snape, Peter |
| McWilliam, John | Soley, Clive |
| Marks, Kenneth | Spearing, Nigel |
| Marshall, D(G'gow S'ton) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Stoddart, David |
| Martin, M (G'gow S'burn) | Stott, Roger |
| Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Strang, Gavin |
| Maxton, John | Straw, Jack |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Meacher, Michael | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Mikardo, Ian | Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Tilley, John |
| Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Tinn, James |
| Mitchell, R.C. (Soton Itchen) | Torney, Tom |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) | Urwin, Rt Hon Tom |
| Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Wainwright, E. (Dearne V) |
| Morton, George | Walker, Rt Hon H. (D'caster) |
| Moyle, Rt Hon Roland | Watkins, David |
| Newens, Stanley | Weetch, Ken |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Welsh, Michael |
| Ogden, Eric | White, Frank R. |
| O'Halloran, Michael | White, J. (G'gow Pollok) |
| O'Neill, Martin | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Whitlock, William |
| Palmer, Arthur | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Park, George | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Parker, John | Williams, Rt Hon A. (S'sea W) |
| Parry, Robert | Wilson, Rt Hon Sir H. (H'ton) |
| Penhaligon, David | Wilson, William (C'try SE) |
| Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) | Winnick, David |
| Prescott, John | Woodall, Alec |
| Price, C. (Lewisham W) | Woolmer, Kenneth |
| Race, Reg | Wright, Sheila |
| Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Richardson, Jo | |
| Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) | Mr. Lawrence Cunliffe and |
| Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) | Mr. Derek Foster. |
| Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| NOES | |
| Adley, Robert | Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Bowden, Andrew |
| Alexander, Richard | Boyson, Dr Rhodes |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Braine, Sir Bernard |
| Ancram, Michael | Bright, Graham |
| Arnold, Tom | Brinton, Tim |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (S'thorne) | Brooke, Hon Peter |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E) | Brotherton, Michael |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. M'bone) | Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'n) |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Bruce-Gardyne, John |
| Banks, Robert | Bryan, Sir Paul |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Buchanan-Smith, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Bendall, Vivian | Buck, Antony |
| Benyon, Thomas (A'don) | Budgen, Nick |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Bulmer, Esmond |
| Best, Keith | Burden, Sir Frederick |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Butcher John |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Cadbury, Jocelyn |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Carlisle, John (Luton West) |
| Blackbum, John | Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) |
| Blaker, Peter | Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n) |
| Body, Richard | Chalker, Mrs. Lynda |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Chapman, Sydney |
| Churchill, W. S. | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) | Kershaw, Sir Anthony |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Kimball, Sir Marcus |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Kitson, Sir Timothy |
| Cockeram, Eric | Knight, Mrs Jill |
| Cope, John | Knox, David |
| Cormack, Patrick | Lang, Ian |
| Corrie, John | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Costain, Sir Albert | Latham, Michael |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Critchley, Julian | Lee, John |
| Crouch, David | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Dean, Paul (North Somerset) | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Dover, Denshore | Loveridge, John |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Luce, Richard |
| Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Durant, Tony | McCrindle, Robert |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Eggar, Tim | MacGregor, John |
| Elliott, Sir William | MacKay, John (Argyll) |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. |
| Eyre, Reginald | McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) |
| Fairgrieve, Sir Russell | McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) |
| Faith, Mrs Sheila | McQuarrie, Albert |
| Farr John | Madel, David |
| Fenner, Mrs Peggy | Major, John |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles | Marland, Paul |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Marlow, Antony |
| Forman, Nigel | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Marten, Rt Hon Neil |
| Fox, Marcus | Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus |
| Fraser, Peter (South Angus) | Mawby, Ray |
| Fry, Peter | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Mellor, David |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian | Miller, Hal (B'grove) |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Mills, Iain (Meriden) |
| Goodhart, Sir Philip | Mills, Peter (West Devon) |
| Goodhew, Sir Victor | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) |
| Gorst, John | Moate, Roger |
| Gow, Ian | Monro, Sir Hector |
| Gray, Hamish | Montgomery, Fergus |
| Greenway, Harry | Morgan, Geraint |
| Griffiths, E. (B'y St. Edm'ds) | Morris, M. (N'hampton S) |
| Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N) | Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) |
| Grist, Ian | Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) |
| Grylls, Michael | Mudd, David |
| Gummer, John Selwyn | Murphy, Christopher |
| Hamilton, Hon A. | Myles, David |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Neale, Gerrard |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Nelson, Anthony |
| Hannam, John | Neubert, Michael |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Newton, Tony |
| Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Normanton, Tom |
| Hawkins, Paul | Onslow, Cranley |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S. |
| Heddle, John | Page, John (Harrow, West) |
| Henderson, Barry | Page, Richard (SW Herts) |
| Hicks, Robert | Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Parris, Matthew |
| Hill, James | Patten, John (Oxford) |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Holland, Philip (Carlton) | Pawsey, James |
| Hooson, Tom | Percival, Sir Ian |
| Hordern, Peter | Peyton, Rt Hon John |
| Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldf'd) | Pollock, Alexander |
| Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) | Porter, Barry |
| Hunt, David (Wirral) | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Johnson Smith, Geoffrey | Raison, Rt Hon Timothy |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Rathbone, Tim |
| Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) |
| Kaberry, Sir Donald | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Renton, Tim | Taylor, Teddy (S 'end E) |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Ridsdale, Sir Julian | Thompson, Donald |
| Rifkind, Malcolm | Thorne, Neil (Ilford South) |
| Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW) | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Townend John (Bridlington) |
| Rossi, Hugh | Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath) |
| Rost, Peter | Trippier, David |
| Royle, Sir Anthony | Trotter, Neville |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N. | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Viggers, Peter |
| Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) | Waddington, David |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) | Wakeham, John |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Shepherd, Richard | Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester) |
| Silvester, Fred | Wall, Sir Patrick |
| Sims, Roger | Waller, Gary |
| Skeet, T. H. H. | Ward, John |
| Smith, Dudley | Warren, Kenneth |
| Speed, Keith | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Speller, Tony | Wheeler, John |
| Spence, John | Whitney, Raymond |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Wickenden, Keith |
| Sproat, Iain | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Squire, Robin | Wilkinson, John |
| Stainton, Keith | Williams, D. (Montgomery) |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Stanley, John | Wolfson, Mark |
| Steen, Anthony | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Stevens, Martin | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Stewart, A. (E Renfrewshire) | |
| Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Stokes, John | Mr. Anthony Berry and |
| Stradling Thomas, J. | Carol Mather. |
| Tapsell, Peter |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§
Amendments made: No. 7, in page 3, line 29, leave out
'after consulting with the Bus Company'.
§
No. 8. in page 3, line 34, at end insert—
'(1A) Before giving a direction under this section the Secretary of State shall consult with—
§
No. 9, in page 3, line 41, at end insert—
'(4) In this section—
bus services" has the same meaning as in the Transport Act 1968;
county council" includes the Greater London Council.'.—[Mr. David Howell.]