Commons Sitting of 11 May 1982

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  NEW WRIT
  For Mitcham and Morden, in the room of Bruce Leslie Home Douglas-Mann, Esq. (Manor of Northstead).—[Mr. Michael Cocks.]
  NEW WRIT
    Private Business
      EAST LINDSEY DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [Lords]
      Read the Third time and passed, without amendment.

      HUGH SMALL AND NORMA SMALL (MARRIAGE ENABLING) BILL [Lords]
      Amendment made: In page 1, line 10, leave out "was" and insert "were".—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
      Read the Third time and passed, with an amendment.

      JOHN FRANCIS DARE AND GILLIAN LODER DARE (MARRIAGE ENABLING) BILL [Lords]
        Clause 2

          INTERPRETATION
          Amendment made: In page 2, line 32, after "Eleanor" insert "Norah".—The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
          Read the Third time and passed, with an amendment.

          TEES AND HARTLEPOOL PORT AUTHORITY BILL (By Order)
          Order for Second Reading read.
          To be read a Second time upon Thursday.

  SECOND READINGS
  The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Bernard Weatherill): It may be for the convenience of the House to know that I propose to set down the Second Reading of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Bill for consideration on Thursday at Seven o'clock.
  The Second Reading of the Greater London Council (Money) Bill will be set down for a later date.

Oral Answers to Questions
  SOCIAL SERVICES

    Health Authorities (Appointments)
    Mr. Adleyasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on future appointments to health authorities.
    The Minister for Health (Mr. Kenneth Clarke): The terms of office of the chairmen and half the members of the regional health authorities end later this year. We are consulting widely on future appointments and considering possible changes to the composition of the authorities. None of the chairmen or members of district health authorities come up for reappointment this year.
    Mr. Adley: I thank my hon. and learned Friend for that reply. Will he do his best to ensure that in future we appoint more people with recent practical medical experience and experience of current patient care to the higher echelons of the boards?
    Mr. Clarke: We endeavour always to appoint the right people. I shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said and also the recommendations that he has put forward for health authorities in his locality.
    Mr. Ashley: Is the Minister aware that the North Staffordshire district health authority wants proper representation on the regional health board? Views are put forward only at second hand. Will the hon. and learned Gentleman arrange for all districts to be properly represented in the regions?
    Mr. Clarke: We are consulting the local authority associations on the future pattern of local authority representation on the regional health authorities. We hope to make some decisions on that matter in due course to ensure not only that the regions are not too big but that there is proper local authority representation.
    I shall have another look at the problems facing the North Staffordshire district health authority.
    Mr. Christopher Price: Cannot the Tory Party find a Tory in Lewisham to be chairman of the Lewisham district health authority? Why does it have to go as far away as Sevenoaks to find the nearest decent Tory to be chairman of our district health authority?
    Mr. Clarke: Our appointments reflect a reasonable political balance. We try to ensure that there is not an excessive number of purely political appointments. I have every confidence in the new chairman of the Lewisham district health authority. Given the history of that authority, I trust that he will have every success in sorting out and solving its problems.
    Mrs. Dunwoody: Has the Minister given instructions that there should not be political appointments at district health or regional health authority level? There is a suspicion that he is changing the interpretation of the rules.
    Mr. Clarke: We do not make political appointments—[Interruption.] If the hon. Lady is interested in analysing the appointments, she will find that those chairmen of district health authorities who have political allegiances come from all parties.

    Fuel Bills (Assistance)
    Mr. Kenneth Carlisleasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what sum from social security funds was spent on help with fuel bills in the financial years 1978–79 and 1980–81.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Tony Newton): The sums spent were about £90 million and £161 million respectively. In addition, in 1978–79 there was expenditure by the Department of Energy of £34 million on the electricity discount scheme.
    Mr. Carlisle: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that the latest figures for 1981–82 show that the help that we give with fuel bills is 25 per cent. greater in real terms than that provided in the last year of the Labour Government? In a world recession, in which funds are inevitably short, does that not prove that we accept and understand the need to give help to those in that group?
    Mr. Newton: I confirm what my hon. Friend said. Assistance under those headings rose to about £250 million last year, and in the present year it is likely to rise to about £300 million, which will be a further real increase. In addition, by comparison with the electricity discount scheme, we are giving far more effective help to those who need it.
    Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: Will the Minister confirm that the savage increases in gas and electricity prices brought about by the Government mean that, even with extra help, most of those on supplementary benefit have to spend a higher proportion of their income on fuel bills than they had to spend before the Government's measures?
    Mr. Newton: As I said last week in the debate on fuel-direct, given the background of the world increase in energy prices, we cannot totally protect any section of the population. The record that I outlined in my initial answer shows our clear determination to protect as much as possible the least well off in our community.
    Mr. Watson: Will my hon. Friend consider spending the £161 million per year on energy conservation instead of continuing subsidy for energy use?
    Mr. Newton: If I had elaborated my initial answer, I would have included the various steps that we have taken to help families, particularly poor families, to improve home insulation. Therefore, we are also doing as my hon. Friend asks.
    Mr. Rooker: How much of that money is due to the 300 per cent. increase in the standing charge for gas since the Conservative Party came to office?
    Mr. Newton: I cannot give the precise figure, but the substantial increases reflect our concern about the general rise in energy charges.

    Mothers (Marital Status)
    Dr. Edmund Marshallasked the Secretary of State for Social Services why the Department has requested regional health authorities to record the marital status of women who have given birth.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg): This is no new request. For more than 30 years marital status has been included in the hospital in-patient inquiry. But a fresh look at the information needs for the National Health Service is being taken by a steering group set up in 1980. It has proposed that marital status should continue to be recorded for the time being, and its proposals have gone out for consultation. Formal recommendations have not yet come to us.
    Dr. Marshall: What business is it of the health authorities to pry into the marital status of patients? Without in any way devaluing the moral and social standing of marriage as an institution, will the health authorities confine themselves to health matters?
    Mr. Finsberg: I remind the hon. Gentleman that the information has been supplied for the past 30 years. The lack of sensible statistics in the National Health Service has been criticised by health service managers and by the Royal Commission. I do not see why it should be wrong to ask the committee to consider the matter. When we have seen the recommendations, we shall decide what to do.
    Mr. Greenway: Will my hon. Friend confirm or deny reports in the Daily Mail that his hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Health recently stated that doctors should be free to prescribe oral contraceptatives to girls under 16, without their parents' knowledge——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that that is another question, although I do not know much about it myself.
    Mr. Terry Davis: Why does the National Health Service need any statistics on how many mothers are married and how many are not, if the purpose of the forms is to improve the health of the children?
    Mr. Finsberg: There was general unease about the quality of information available within the National Health Service. That is why we set up the Körner committee. In the light of the Körner committee's recommendations and of the consultations, we can decide whether to change the system that has been in existence for 30 years, under several Labour Governments.

    Social Workers (Barclay Committee)
    Mr. Altonasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will make a statement on the work of the committee chaired by Mr. Peter Barclay on social workers.
    The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mr. Norman Fowler): I am grateful to the committee and the institute for this thorough report. Many of its broad conclusions are consistent with our policies for care in the community. I am seeking urgently the comments of interested bodies and will then consider what action the Government need to take.
    Mr. Alton: I am grateful for that reply. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is a need to protect the citizen more adequately against the arbitrary powers of social workers? In particular, has he had time to consider the case of Miss Caroline Pritchard of Liverpool? In that case a social worker took a child into care and the paediatrician involved described it as legalised child stealing.
    Mr. Fowler: I have not looked at that case, but I know of the hon. Gentleman's concern about it, and also the Gaskin case, which he has raised in the House. Essentially, his questions are for the local authority to answer. I shall look further at the case that he has raised to see whether there is anything that I can add.
    Mrs. Faith: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the public expenditure White Paper shows that appreciably more money, in real terms, will be spent on social workers in future? Will he comment on that? Would it not be better to spend more money on increasing the number of home helps?
    Mr. Fowler: There is a need in both respects. The theme of the Barclay report is to harness the efforts of the community in both the statutory and voluntary sense. That is very much in line with the Government's view.

    Midwifery Services
    Mr. Newensasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what guidance he has issued to district health authorities on the organisation of midwifery services.
    Mr. Lofthouseasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he has received any representations about the reorganisation of the midwifery service.
    Mr. Kenneth Clarke: In July 1980 we issued a circular requiring district health authorities to arrange their services into units of management, giving several examples, including the districts' maternity services. I am now awaiting regions' decisions on the pattern of services at district level.
    Mr. Newens: As hospital confinements ensure the highest possible standards of safety for both mother and child, will the Minister ensure that in any reorganisation adequate places will be available for all women to have their babies in hospital? Will he also take steps to ensure that induced births—which have deterred many mothers-to-be from going to hospital—are reduced to the minimum?
    Mr. Clarke: Such management decisions will have to be made by the new management structures which the districts will set up. The aim of modern maternity practice is for children to be born in hospital whenever possible. It should also be an aim to pay proper regard to the wishes of mothers about the way in which they wish their children to be born.
    Mr. Lofthouse: Does the Minister agree that, in the organisation of midwifery services, the most important factor is the quality of service for the patient? Does he accept that that is more likely to be achieved by reorganisation based on midwifery divisions than on small geographical areas? Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give an assurance that the reorganisation of the NHS will not have a detrimental effect on the midwifery service?
    Mr. Clarke: I agree with those general propositions. The advice of the Royal College of Midwifery has been to have midwifery units, and the Government cited midwifery units as an example of the kind of structure that should be set up. I understand that in Pontefract a separate maternity unit has been established. I am sure that district health authorities, which in the end must decide on these matters, will bear in mind all the advice that they are receiving on this subject.
    Mrs. Dunwoody: But there is clear evidence that there is no proper pattern. Some areas are moving away from functional organisation, others are using geographical boundaries, and as a result there is utter chaos in the midwifery services. Will the Minister take great care to find out what is happening, because it is important that midwifery should be properly organised for the benefit of mothers and children?
    Mr. Clarke: We are seeking to increase local responsibility for the Health Service. Therefore, we have left some discretion to districts to set up a management structure to fit their particular needs. Thus, variety is produced, not chaos. There is plenty of advice that midwifery units are desirable, and we backed up that advice in the circular that was issued.
    Mr. Christopher Price: Is the Minister aware that most right hon. and hon. Members were probably born not
    586
    in hospital, but at home? Having listened to the Royal College, will he also listen to ARM, the Association of Radical Midwives, and make certain that those women who want to have their babies at home have the ability to do so?
    Mr. Clarke: I am sure that it is the desire of all professionals involved that perinatal mortality should be reduced to the absolute minimum and that every possible care should be available to the mother and child during childbirth. I agree with whatever groups put forward the proposition that one must have regard also to the wishes of mothers. Those two aspects should be equated in reaching decisions about future practice in the maternity services.

    Social Security Budget
    Mr. Rookerasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he has any plans for further savings in the social security budget for 1982–83 or 1983–84.
    Mr. Fowler: Our plans for savings in the social security budget for 1982–83 and 1983–84 have already been given to the House. The measures taken from 1979 to 1981 were detailed in a written answer to the hon. Member on 28 January. Since then the Government have published the public expenditure White Paper outlining expenditure plans to 1984–85. These savings must be seen against a total social security budget in 1982–83 of some £32 billion, including an uprating in November 1982 of about £3 billion.
    Mr. Rooker: But does the Secretary of State appreciate that the figures in the public expenditure White Paper do not tell the House or the country how the savings will be achieved? Does he accept that the savings achieved so far, for example, for a woman becoming widowed today, compared with three years ago, mean a loss of £15 a week, and for a person on average earnings losing his job today, compared with three years ago, a loss in benefit of 13 a week? Are those the kind of savings that are still ahead of us?
    Mr. Fowler: I cannot commit myself on future savings, but I have no present plans for further announcements in that regard. The measures taken, and how much they will save, have already been set out for the hon. Gentleman in the answer to which I referred. I am sure that he will recognise that part of the Government's success in bringing down inflation is due to the success that we have had in this area.
    Mrs. Knight: Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that the campaign to detect and end abuse of social security payments will continue unabated?
    Mr. Fowler: Yes, it will continue. I am sure that the whole House will recognise that it is important, when many people are unquestionably in genuine need, to lake action against those who abuse the system.
    Mr. Cunliffe: Does the Secretary of State agree that in any savings that may be made priority should be given to the just claims of the nurses and the lower paid in the National Health Service? How does he reconcile the despicable behaviour of the Government in allowing the Civil Service unions to go to arbitration, accepting the arbitration award and rejecting the application of the Health Service unions?
    Mr. Fowler: I should be happy to debate that matter with the hon. Gentleman, but it does not remotely come under the social security budget and the savings there.
    Mr. Peter Bottomley: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the social security budget is intertwined with the tax income to the Government? Will he give further thought to reversing what appears to be the Government's slightly wobbly position on the 5 per cent. abatement, given that the income from the tax on those benefits will be 10 times as great as the cost to the Exchequer of the increase in the social security budget as it should be increased?
    Mr. Fowler: I have already given a commitment to the House that we shall keep the 5 per cent. unemployment abatement under review, and we shall do that.

    Medical Unemployment
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is his estimate of the trends in medical unemployment.
    Mr. Kenneth Clarke: On the figures available to me, no significant trend of medical unemployment appears to emerge, and I have no evidence of an over-supply of doctors at the moment.
    Mrs. Short: I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he bear in mind the considerable unmet needs in many of the shortage specialties and the fact that many general practitioners are working longer than they should do and have longer lists than they should have?
    Does he accept that, in preventive medicine, more skilled medical help is needed? Will he continue to tell those sections of the medical profession that suggest that we need to reduce the intake of medical students that their proposals are just not on?
    Mr. Clarke: I accept, of course, that there are continuing unmet needs in all those areas. The hon. Lady did not mention the hospital service, where, under this Government, the number of doctors employed has been increased by over 1,700. We should like to make advances in other areas. I am glad that we have the support of the Select Committee, which the hon. Lady chairs, for the target number of medical students that we have set. We shall pursue that policy. We shall reach that target as resources in the education service allow.
    Mr. Body: Why does my right hon. Friend not take more credit for what is being done—not only the 1,000 more doctors, but the 5,000 more medical auxiliaries, and the 8,000 more nurses? Why do we not hear more about that?
    Mr. Clarke: We should take full credit. In fact, the figure is 34,000 extra nurses in terms of whole-time equivalents in the NHS. Much of the campaigning that is directed against the Government in this respect overlooks the fact that we have given high priority to and increased spending in real terms on the National Health Service. That spending is showing results, because there are now more people at the sharp end of patient care—more doctors, more medical auxiliaries, and more nurses.

    Voluntary Organisations (Grants)
    Mr. Pawseyasked the Secretary of State for Social Services how much his Department gave in grants to voluntary organisations in 1978–79 and in the latest year for which figures are available.
    Mr. Newton: In 1978–79 my Department spent £4,445,000 on grants to some 180 organisations under section 64 of the Health Services and Public Health Act 1968. Comparable figures for 1981–82 are £8,881,000—a real increase of 33 per cent.—on grants to over 250 organisations. I will circulate the detailed list of these 1981–82 grants in the Official Report.
    Mr. Pawsey: I thank my hon. Friend for that full and comprehensive reply. It shows that the Government are indeed caring and compassionate and that my hon. Friend is a caring and compassionate Minister. Will he tell the House what safeguards exist and what monitoring there is to ensure that we are receiving value for money?
    Mr. Newton: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks.
    Mr. Rooker: The hon. Gentleman is embarrassed.
    Mr. Newton: I can tell the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) that I am not at all embarrassed. I want to share the congratulations with my other compassionate and caring friends on the Front Bench, many of whom made the decisions for which I am now being given the credit.
    The answer to my hon. Friend's question is that we go into these matters carefully beforehand, keep an eye on what is being done with the money, and ask the organisations to make sure that we are kept informed of their accounts and other arrangements.
    Mr. Marks: Does the Minister accept that the Government's failure to support local authorities has meant that they cannot assist voluntary organisations, as they have done in the past, and that, because of the real fall in wages throughout the country, individuals cannot help in the same way? Does he further accept that the voluntary organisations, because of unemployment and all the other disasters that have taken place under this Government, have far too much to do?
    Mr. Newton: I do not accept any of those comments. The latest figure for local authority help to voluntary organisations relates to 1980–81, when it was £22 million. That represented a real increase of 19 per cent. over the previous year. In answer to the other parts of the hon. Gentleman's question, my impression is that voluntary organisations are getting a great deal of support and are enjoying doing more work of this kind. The Inland Revenue is receiving an increasing number of applications for covenants, and more money is going to charities from individuals.
    Mr. Squire: Is my hon. Friend aware how welcome was the announcement yesterday of the £20,000 grant to the Child Poverty Action Group, which, in its assistance to hon. Members on both sides of the House on matters of child benefit and family support, has set a standard that many other voluntary groups would do well to emulate?
    Mr. Newton: I should make it clear to my hon. Friend that the grant is specifically for the citizens' rights office of the CPAG, not for its campaigning work. I think that that will be understood on both sides of the House.
    Mr. William Hamilton: It is not understood.
    Mr. Newton: That was made clear. I should have been deeply embarrassed if we had not been able to make the grant, because the first thing that I found on my file when I took office was a letter from me to my predecessor urging that we should make the grant.
    Mr. Carter-Jones: Is the Minister being honest with the House? Will he tell us how much money is being taken from voluntary organisations in VAT? Does it not more than offset the grant?
    Mr. Newton: All hon. Members are familiar with the problem of VAT and are aware of the extensive discussions on the problem that have taken place between charities and my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Treasury. We are sorry that we have not been able to find a solution, but successive packages and measures to help charities in the last two Budgets and Finance Bills are bringing significant additional help.
    Following is the information:

    Grants to Voluntary Bodies 1981–82 Provisional Outturn

    £

    Action on Smoking and Health

    90,012

    Advocacy Alliance

    4,000

    Age Concern

    286,000

    Alcohol Education Centre

    65,814

    Alcoholic Hostels

    300,179

    Alcoholic Recovery Project

    4,000

    Alcoholism Community Centres for Education Prevention and Treatment

    38,225

    Alzheimer's Disease Society

    2,250

    Aquarius Resource Centre

    10,500

    Apex Trust

    24,343

    Association Aide a Toute Detresse

    24,400

    Association for all Speech Impaired Children

    10,000

    Association for Spina Bifida and Hydrocephalus

    30,000

    Association of Breast-feeding Mothers

    1,500

    Association of Residential Communities

    8,000

    Asthma Society

    2,000

    Back Pain Association

    17,000

    Bethnal Green Intermediate Education Centre

    32,000

    Birmingham Settlement

    7,000

    Blenheim Street Agency

    7,600

    Bobath Centre

    3,000

    Breakthrough Trust

    75,000

    Bristol Council for Voluntary Service

    800

    British Association for Adoption and Fostering

    246,000

    British Association for Counselling

    1,200

    British Association of the Hard of Hearing

    18,600

    British Association of Immediate Care

    20,000

    British Deaf Association

    20,000

    British Diabetic Association

    1,500

    British Epilepsy Association

    22,000

    British Institute of Mental Handicap

    24,500

    British Red Cross-Cosmetic Camouflage

    1,260

    British Retinitis Pigmentosa Society

    4,500

    Brook Advisory Centres

    30,000

    Calibre

    7,000

    Campaign for Single Homeless People

    22,000

    Campaign for the Mentally Handicapped

    14,000

    Care

    12,500

    Catholic Marriage Advisory Council

    23,000

    Centre for Policy on Ageing

    44,800

    Centre on Environment for the Handicapped

    19,500

    Chest Heart and Stroke Association

    5,000

    Child Accident Prevention Trust

    29,040

    Child Poverty Action Group

    900

    Children's Legal Centre

    10,500

    Church of England Childrens Society

    35,000

    City Roads Crisis Intervention

    66,500

    Clock Tower Association

    10,500

    Coeliac Society

    10,000

    Coke Hole Trust

    8,000

    £

    Combat Huntington's Chorea

    15,000

    Community Drugs Project

    5,300

    Community Service Volunteers

    47,396

    Contact

    22,400

    Contact a Family

    3,000

    Cope

    73,950

    Coronary Prevention Group

    3,000

    Council for the Advancement of Communication with Deaf People

    10,000

    Coventry Day Centre

    5,000

    Cranstoun Hostel

    9,750

    Crossroads Care Attendant Schemes Ltd.

    25,000

    Cruse

    56,000

    Cyrenians

    66,400

    Disability Alliance

    5,000

    Disabled Drivers Association

    3,500

    Disabled Living Foundation

    242,000

    Disablement Income Group

    11,000

    Downs Children's Association

    4,500

    Dr. Barnardo's

    65,000

    Elizabeth Fitzroy Trust

    12,500

    Employment Fellowship

    38,000

    European Dialysis and Transplant Association

    10,000

    Family Forum

    22,749

    Family Holiday Association

    2,500

    Family Planning Association

    124,500

    Family Rights Group

    5,000

    Family Service Units

    128,000

    Family Tree

    8,750

    Family Welfare Association

    112,680

    Federation of Alcoholic Rehabilitation Establishments

    77,400

    Fire Precautions (in voluntary residential homes)

    138,428

    Fluoridation Society

    14,000

    Gingerbread

    48,000

    Hampshire Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders

    5,000

    Handcrafts Advisory Association for the Disabled

    9,300

    Handicapped Adventure Playground Association

    6,500

    Headway Association

    5,000

    Holiday Care Service

    5,000

    Home Farm Trust

    12,500

    Home Start Consultancy

    14,000

    Horticultural Therapy

    5,000

    Hungerford Day Centre for Drug Addicts

    12,700

    Ileostomy Association of Great Britain

    2,250

    Institute for the Study of Drug Dependence

    115,710

    International Hospital Federation

    35,000

    International Social Service

    27,500

    International Voluntary Service

    20,831

    Invalid Children's Aid Association

    44,000

    Invalids At Home Trust

    2,200

    Joint Committee on Mobility for the Disabled

    600

    Kent Council on Alcoholism

    900

    L'Arche Ltd.

    22,500

    La Leche League of Great Britain

    375

    Leicester Council for Voluntary Service

    14,000

    Leonard Cheshire Foundation

    20,000

    Liverpool Alcoholism Services

    18,000

    London Voluntary Service Council

    11,750

    London Youth Advisory Council

    4,400

    Makaton Vocabulary Development Project

    2,000

    Mastectomy Association

    6,000

    Maternity Alliance

    10,000

    Medical Council on Alcoholism

    64,600

    Mencap

    209,750

    Mental After Care Association

    50,000

    Mental Health Film Council

    3,200

    Motability

    299,069

    Motor Neurone Disease Association

    3,000

    Muscular Dystrophy Group

    20,000

    National Ankylosing Spondylitis Society

    2,500

    National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders

    92,310

    National Association for the Childless

    13,000

    National Association for the Deaf/Blind, Rubella Handicapped

    5,000

    £

    National Association for Maternal and Child Welfare

    5,000

    National Association for Mental Health

    400,000

    National Association for Patient Participation in General Practice

    2,000

    National Association for the Welfare of Children in Hospital

    45,000

    National Association of Leagues of Hospital Friends

    11,750

    National Association of Victims Support Schemes

    7,350

    National Association of Voluntary Hostels

    4,100

    National Association of Youth Clubs

    33,467

    National Childbirth Trust

    15,000

    National Childminding Association

    25,000

    National Children's Bureau

    156,745

    National Children's Home

    7,500

    National Council for One-parent Families

    110,000

    National Council for the Single Woman and Her Dependents

    8,000

    National Council of Voluntary Child Care Organisations

    20,417

    National Council for Voluntary Organisations

    178,167

    National Council on Alcoholism

    252,000

    National Eczema Society

    9,250

    National Elfrida Rathbone Society

    11,000

    National Federation of Kidney Patients

    2,134

    National Federation of the Blind of the United Kingdom

    1,000

    National Foster Care Association

    63,450

    National Library for the Blind

    9,500

    National Listening Library

    16,000

    National Marriage Guidance Council

    20,000

    National Playbus Association

    14,500

    National Schizophrenia Fellowship

    76,000

    National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children

    225,000

    National Tape Magazine for the Blind

    400

    National Youth Bureau

    52,000

    Network for the Handicapped

    1,000

    Norfolk Children's Projects

    30,000

    Norfolk Council on Alcoholism

    25,000

    Northern Regional Association for the Blind

    38,478

    One-to-One

    9,000

    Opus

    4,500

    Outset

    14,250

    Overseas Doctors Association

    7,000

    Parent to Parent Information on Adoption Services

    2,250

    Parents for Children

    34,000

    Partially Sighted Society

    12,000

    Peter Bedford Project

    5,800

    Physically Handicapped and Able Bodied

    35,000

    Plymouth Night Shelter

    15,650

    Possum Users Association

    14,750

    Pre-School Playgroups Association

    300,000

    Queen Elizabeth's Foundation for the Disabled

    10,000

    Rainer Foundation

    65,375

    Rape Counselling and Research Project

    10,000

    Richmond Fellowship

    70,000

    Royal Association for Disability and Rehabilitation

    270,000

    Royal National Institute for the Blind

    355,000

    Royal National Institute for the Deaf

    14,000

    Royal School for the Blind

    114,000

    Salvation Army

    2,573

    Samaritans

    80,000

    Save the Children Fund

    269,625

    Sexual and Personal Relationships of the Disabled

    30,000

    Shaftesbury Homes and Arethusa Sailing Barge

    25,000

    Shape

    5,750

    Sheffield Family Service Units

    14,000

    Short Stay Young Homeless Limited

    3,000

    Social Work Training Grants

    65,375

    Society of St. Dismas

    6,980

    Southern and Western Regional Association for the Blind

    53,312

    Spastics Society

    141,738

    Spinal Injuries Association

    15,000

    Standing Conference on Drug Abuse

    53,800

    St. Albans Diocesan Council for Social Responsibility

    14,725

    £

    St. John Ambulance

    36,000

    Stonham Housing Association

    10,000

    Sue Ryder Foundation

    2,000

    Talking Newspapers Association of the United Kingdom

    750

    The Patients Association

    5,000

    Toy Libraries Association

    41,000

    Turning Point

    68,000

    Venture 12 Project

    19,992

    Voluntary Council for Handicapped Children

    22,000

    Voluntary Organisations Liaison Committee for Under-Fives

    5,400

    Volunteer Centre

    13,660

    Westminster Pastoral Foundation

    60,000

    Widows Advisory Trust

    11,000

    Winged Fellowship Trust

    6,300

    Womens Aid Federation (England)

    96,000

    Womens Health Concern

    3,000

    Womens National Cancer Control Campaign

    67,900

    Miscellaneous

    25,930

    8,881,164

    Hospital Beds (Usage)
    Mr. Hal Millerasked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many beds in the National Health Service are unused for lack of (a) staff, (b) finance and (c) patients.
    Mr. Fowler: The information requested is not available centrally, but at any point a considerable number of beds in National Health Service hospitals will not be in use for a variety of reasons.
    Mr. Miller: Is it not the case that the action proposed by certain bodies in the National Health Service to extract an increase in wages over and above any increase in output in the economy will lead to more beds being left empty and an increase in the waiting lists, which were being shortened? Is it not the case that the action is undoubtedly seeking to make use of patients as a form of moral blackmail of the Government?
    Mr. Fowler: I agree with the points that have been made by my hon. Friend, in particular his comments about waiting lists. Waiting list numbers have fallen from about 750,000 in March 1979, following the winter of discontent, to fewer than 630,000 on 31 March 1981. It would be a tragedy for patients if that advance and those improvements were now to be put at risk.
    Mrs. Dunwoody: If the Secretary of State wants to see peace in the National Health Service, why is he not prepared to let the health unions go to arbitration, because it is tremendously important that, if we are to have an efficient Health Service, it must be staffed by people who know that they are important to the country? The Secretary of State is making it clear to them that he does not give a damn.
    Mr. Fowler: That is a total travesty of the position. The Government have not cut the National Health Service, but have increased the real resources that go to the National Health Service by about 6 per cent. We have also increased the amount of money that is available for pay, so that an extra amount can be made available for nurses and midwives. I am sure that that has the support of the House. I hope that the Opposition will also take the opportunity to deplore any industrial action that puts at risk the interests of patients.
    Mr. Peter Bottomley: Does my right hon. Friend agree that most people will accept that if the National Health Service unions continue to insist upon a pay increase of 12 per cent. it can lead only to more inflation and less of the real growth that provides the resources for the NHS? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Opposition would be well advised to try to sort out about a year in advance which groups have a special case rather than supporting every special case each week?
    Mr. Fowler: My hon. Friend is right. We have made a fair and realistic offer to the NHS. Like him, I believe that the 12 per cent. claim is unrealistic.
    Mr. Pavitt: What is the Secretary of State doing about the effect on unused beds and waiting lists of the acute shortage of qualified theatre sisters and qualified renal nurses? What is he doing about the 7,140 qualified nurses who are now on the dole?
    How does the right hon. Gentleman propose to help hard-pressed nurses, suffering because of the six-month maternity leave provisions for their fellow nurses? Is he aware that extra finance is not being made available so that the vacancies can be filled?
    Mr. Fowler: The numbers of people employed in the NHS have increased from 1979 to 1981 by 47,000. That includes a 34,000 increase in nurses. That is a considerable achievement.

    Industrial Injuries Scheme
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what recent representations he has received regarding the White Paper on the reorganisation of the industrial injuries scheme; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister for Social Security (Mr. Hugh Rossi): The White Paper invited comments by 31 March on two of its proposals—special hardship allowance and the ending of double payment for industrial injuries by means of benefits and damages claims. The 28 replies received are being studied and we shall announce our conclusions in due course. In recent weeks we have also received a smaller number of other comments on the White Paper proposals as a whole.
    Mr. Skinner: Is it not a fact that amidst all the compassion that the Tories trot out day by day at the Dispatch Box, they have introduced a White Paper that proposes to get rid of hospital treatment allowance and industrial death benefit for the widows of those killed at work? The White Paper proposes reducing payments for those who receive disablement benefit of less than 10 per cent. and stopping any other payments from social security to those who are receiving common law payments. In other words, those people will be knocked off. Is it not time that the Government faced up to the representations that they are receiving from the trade unions and others and withdrew this wicked White Paper on the reorganisation of the industrial injuries scheme?
    Mr. Rossi: The White Paper followed a long period of consultation and represents what is virtually a consensus throughout the country on how the industrial injuries benefit scheme can be brought up to date. [Interruption.] The document that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) is waving is a distortion of the facts and has been
    594
    answered point by point. I recommend that the hon. Gentleman reads the White Paper for himself. He will see in it that we are directing resources to the most seriously injured people in our community.
    Mr. Rooker: Will the Minister compose himself and tell the House what is the estimate of the number of gainers and losers under the proposals in the White Paper?
    Mr. Rossi: If the hon. Gentleman will look at the financial consequences in the White Paper, he will see a saving of about £54 million, which is being reallocated, and will be increased to £61 million. The people who are losing are those who suffer injuries such as cuts and bruises at work and receive average payments of £9 We are allocating resources so that, for example, someone who loses a leg will have an increased benefit of about £400.

    Health Education Officers (Development and Training)
    Mr. Dormandasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards the proposal in the Kirby report to establish a national advisory committee on health education officer development and training.
    Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: I accept that there may be a need for an appropriately constituted advisory committee to take overall responsibility for the future oversight of health education officer development and training. But, I think, its form and its relationships with the Department, the service and the Health Education Council, will best be decided in the light of the outcome of the current reviews of the National Training Council and the National Staff Committee.
    Mr. Dormand: That is a disappointing reply. Is the Minister aware that the Government's contribution—not just in financial terms—to health education leaves a great deal to be desired? Does he agree that the health education officer has the key role to play in health education? Will he therefore implement the report's recommendations as a matter of urgency?
    Mr. Finsberg: We recognise the importance of the role of the health education officer. That is why his post has been excluded from the management cost exercise. There are 450 health education officers in post. It would not be doing a service to the hon. Gentleman's beliefs to rush in until we have finished considering the reports that I have mentioned.

    Private Acute Hospitals
    Mr. Alexanderasked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many National Health Service patients are treated in private acute hospitals.
    Mr. Kenneth Clarke: The latest available figures show that in England in 1980 there were 23,700 in-patient treatments and 116,500 out-patient attendances under contractual arrangements made by health authorities with institutions outside the NHS. Separate information for private acute hospitals is not available.
    Mr. Alexander: Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that that reply indicates how foolish it would be for the Labour Party to decide to scrap private medicine, since private medicine is a contributor to, rather than a burden

    595
    upon, the National Health Service? Is it not the case that all the costs of private sector use of National Health Service facilities are refunded by the private sector? If so, should we not be asking for more partnership between the two rather than having ideological conflict?
    Mr. Clarke: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It would be foolish and impracticable to suggest the ending of private medicine in this country. I agree that the private and public sectors have a great deal to contribute in terms of assisting each other, and both are additions to the health care of the country. As regards income, it is estimated that pay beds alone will contribute an extra £52 million to the National Health Service next year.
    Mr. Cryer: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the private sector acts as a drain on the National Health Service? Is this not confirmed by the fact that the Minister's predecessor said that he was keeping under review the possibility of levying the private sector to provide training facilities? Is it not a disgrace that the Government are encouraging private clinics, such as the Yorkshire clinic near my constituency, that act as a drain on the National Health Service without making any contribution to patient care?
    Mr. Clarke: My hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Mr. Alexander) is correct in what he said a moment ago. We ensure that the private sector pays the full cost to the Health Service of any facilities that it uses. We are anxious to develop the partnership between the two sectors and the mutual benefit that each can derive. We are considering ways in which the private sector can improve its contribution to the training of staff. The general case made by the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) is not sustained by the facts.

    Supplementary Benefit
    Mr. Cockeramasked the Secretary of State for Social Services by how much the supplementary benefit rate for children under five years rose in real terms (a) between 1974 and 1979 and (b) between 1979 and the present date.
    Mr. Newton: Between July 1974 and November 1979, the real value of the scale rate fell by 3p. In November 1980 the under-five scale rate was replaced by an under-11 scale rate. This led to a real value increase in the scale rate provision for a child under five between November 1979 and March 1982 of £1·22.
    Mr. Cockerham: Will my hon. Friend note that even the Socialist-inspired Child Poverty Action Group felt compelled to congratulate the Conservative Government on this real increase, which is in such contrast to the poor performance of the Labour Government?
    Mr. Newton: Yes, I had noted that and I am pleased that we were able to make that improvement.
    Mr. Race: Will the Minister tell the House how many planted questions he has answered today?
    Mr. Newton: I am not aware of having planted any questions. All I can say is that they are growing very well.
    Mr. Rooker: Can the Minister tell us the full effect of the change in the scale rates from five rates to three? Is he aware that the selectivity of the question brought about my hon. Friend's riposte? Can the Minister give the same figures for 11-year-olds?
    Mr. Newton: The position will be very nearly as good for the 11 to 12-year-olds. I can give the figures but I do not intend to spend too much time leafing through my papers. The hon. Gentleman will recall that the main changes were to remove the under-five scale rate and replace it with the under-11 scale rate, which led to that effect. At the same time we abolished the 11–12 scale rate and included it in a higher figure. That is why the 11 to 12-year-olds have also done very well.

    Benefits (Entitlement)
    Mr. Andrew F. Bennettasked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many men and women aged 55 to 60 years and 60 to 65 years are unemployed and looking for work, but receive no State benefits, because they have exhausted their entitlement to unemployment benefit and, because of their spouse's income, are not eligible for supplementary benefit.
    Mr. Rossi: At November 1980, the latest date for which information is available, 11,000 married unemployed claimants aged 55 to 59 had exhausted their title to unemployment benefit and were not receiving supplementary benefit. The corresponding figure for the 60 to 64 age group was 31,600. No analysis is available of the reasons for the non-payment of supplementary benefit in these cases.
    Mr. Bennett: Will the Minister accept that many people are suffering considerable hardship because their spouse's income is marginally above the supplementary benefit rate and therefore they receive no benefit? Is the Minister aware that these people are condemned to live on very low incomes until reaching retirement age and that they do not get a proper pension because they have been unable to contribute to the earnings-related pensions scheme?
    Mr. Rossi: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that when the contributory rights expire and supplementary benefit comes into play it has, of necessity, to be means-tested. The requirements and resources of married couples are always aggregated for supplementary benefit purposes. This reflects their mutual responsibility to each other. Currently, only the husband may make a claim. The requirements and resources of a couple living as husband and wife are also aggregated, so that they are treated neither more nor less advantageously than a married couple.

  PRIME MINISTER

    Engagements
    Mr. Neubertasked the Prime Minister whether she will list her official engagements for 11 May.
    The Prime Minister (Mrs Margaret Thatcher): This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further meetings later today. This evening I shall be dining with the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals.
    Mr. Neubert: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the growing belief that the Argentine Government are deliberately, to their own advantage, trying to spin out the negotiations over the Falkland Islands that are at present

    597
    being conducted through the Secretary-General of the United Nations? Can she say what has happened in those negotiations since the Foreign Secretary's statement last Friday?
    The Prime Minister: The negotiations will take a little time. I must make it clear that the fact that we are negotiating does not close any military options at all. The Secretary-General is pursuing the negotiations vigorously. He has seen our ambassador to the United Nations once or twice each day and also, separately, the representative of the Argentine Government.
    There are certain fundamental principles that we cannot fudge in any way. The ceasefire must be accompanied by a withdrawal to a specific timetable and in a comparatively short time. We must make it absolutely clear that the Argentines must not enter into those negotiations in the belief, or on the condition, that by the end of them sovereignty is ceded to them.
    Mr. Foot: Since these discussions under the auspices of the Secretary-General are obviously of the very greatest importance, and since the outcome may be of the very greatest importance in the dispute, will the right hon. Lady give a clear undertaking that the House of Commons will have the chance to judge those propositions before the Government takes any final decision?
    The Prime Minister: We frequently have debates on the Falkland Islands issue, but the Government must be free and, I believe, are inherently free, to make the best judgment that they can in the situation and, finally, to be accountable to the House of Commons for that judgment.
    Mr. Foot: Of course the right hon. Lady's Government is responsible to the House for what they do. We are asking for something different. These are important discussions. As the right hon. Lady indicated in her reply a moment ago, important principles are involved. The Government have made some very wise departures from previous utterances on many of these matters, but the House of Commons has the right to make a judgment on this matter before any decision is taken by the Government that would enlarge the conflict. I ask the right hon. Lady and her Government, who have been very leniently treated by the House on this matter, for that assurance.
    Mr. Lee: Why did the right hon. Gentleman not meet the Prime Minister?
    Mr. Foot: Because the House has the right to make the judgment. That is why I am asking the right hon. Lady to give the House the chance to judge the outcome of the discussions that are being held under the auspices of the Secretary-General.
    The Prime Minister: We have to take our decisions on those discussions. I agree that they are very important, but it is an inherent jurisdiction of the Government to negotiate and to reach decisions. Afterwards, the House of Commons can pass judgment on the Government.
    Mr. Foot: I ask the right hon. Lady to consider this matter afresh. It could be that a decision on these matters made by the Government could utterly frustrate and destroy their outcome. Therefore, I again ask the right hon. Lady to give the House of Commons the chance to make a judgment before the Government themselves make the final judgment.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The Government have this responsibility, will shoulder that responsibility and will stand before this House and defend their decision.
    Mr. Marlowasked the Prime Minister whether she will list her official engagements for 11 May.
    The Prime Minister: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Marlow: With regard to the Falkland Islands, unlike the Commonwealth and the United States, our Community partners, despite their public utterances, seem to have been flapping around like decapitated chickens. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, unless we have their robust, continuing and wholehearted support, it will go ill with the Community within this country and we might be forced to move against the Community, which neither she nor I would wish to do?
    The Prime Minister: I must point out to my hon. Friend that the European Community has given us staunch support right from the beginning of the Falklands campaign. It gave us staunch support by imposing an import ban. It extended it. There are no military exports from the European Community to the Argentine. There are no new export credits, and at present an import ban is in force. The Community will make a decision by the end of this week on whether it should extend that import ban and I hope and believe that it will.
    Mr. J. Enoch Powell: While the Prime Minister is considering these matters and the exercise of a prerogative that lies in the hands of a Government, will she bear in mind that at no time has this House been informed, or been invited to accept, that there should be any other sequel to the repossession of the Falkland Islands than the immediate and unconditional restoration of sole British administration?
    The Prime Minister: I am fully aware of the point that the right hon. Gentleman has made. Sovereignty cannot be changed by invasion. I am very much aware that the rights of the Falkland Islanders were to be governed through the means of a legislative and executive council, and that is what democracy is all about.
    Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: If my right hon. Friend has time today, will she watch a recording of last night's "Panorama" programme? Is she aware that for the most part, but not all, it was an odious, subversive, travesty in which Michael Cockerell and other BBC reporters dishonoured the right to freedom of speech in this country? Is it not time that such people accepted the fact that if they have these rights, they also have responsibilities?
    The Prime Minister: I share the deep concern that has been expressed on many sides, particularly about the content of yesterday evening's "Panorama" programme. I know how strongly many people feel that the case for our country is not being put with sufficient vigour on certain—I do not say all—BBC programmes. The chairman of the BBC has assured us, and has said in vigorous terms, that the BBC is not neutral on this point, and I hope that his words will be heeded by the many who have responsibilities for standing up for our task force, our boys, our people and the cause of democracy.
    Mr. Winnick: Does not the Prime Minister agree that one of the virtues of a political democracy is that radio and television should be independent from constant

    599
    Government control and interference? Would it not be useful if some of her right hon. and hon. Friends stopped their constant intimidation of the BBC? Perhaps the Prime Minister would take that hint as well.
    The Prime Minister: It is our great pride that the British media are free. We ask them, when the lives of some of our people may be at stake through information or through discussions that can be of use to the enemy—[Interruption.]—to take that into account in their programmes. It is our pride that we have no censorship. That is the essence of a free country. But we expect the case for freedom to be put by those who are responsible for doing so.
    Mr. Pittasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 11 May.
    The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
    Mr. Pitt: In view of what has happened in the preceding weeks, will the Prime Minister give her views on the wisdom of selling arms to non-NATO and unstable countries?
    The Prime Minister: Each and every request for the sale of arms is dealt with separately, and it will continue to be done in that way.
    Mr. Body: During the day, will my right hon. Friend indicate the extent to which the Government appreciate the way in which Australia and New Zealand have imposed trade sanctions on Argentina and the manner in which those sanctions were imposed, totally, speedily and unconditionally?
    The Prime Minister: Gladly. The Governments of Australia and New Zealand have been absolutely magnificent from the day when the Falkland Islands were invaded. From the very outset they have recognised that pressure must be brought to bear and that the Falkland Islanders wish to have the right to live in their own way under a Government of their own choice.
    Mr. Dalyell: Who is there, from Mexico City to Cape Horn, who supports what the task force is doing?
    The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentleman looks even at some of the resolutions——
    Mr. Dalyell: Answer the question.
    The Prime Minister: —of the Organisation of American States, he will see that a number of them condemned the use of force. Some of them may well believe in Argentine sovereignty, but they have totally and utterly condemned the use of force. In any case, I am circumscribed not by the views of those countries but by the interests of our people.
    Sir Bernard Braine: I thank the Prime Minister for her robust remarks earlier. During the course of her busy day, has she been made aware of the rising tide of anger among our constituents at the media treatment and presentation of enemy propaganda and the defeatist views of an unrepresentative minority? Is she aware that an increasing number of people are telling us that this amounts to a sort of treachery?
    The Prime Minister: Our people are very robust and the heart of Britain is sound. I hope that individually they will make their views directly known to the BBC, by their letters and telephone calls.
    Mr. Ashton: Will the Prime Minister comment on the reports in The Sunday Times two days ago that last Thursday Fleet Street was promised an announcement by Mr. Ian McDonald at six o'clock that two Harrier jets had gone down but that it was delayed until nine o'clock because it was polling day and there would have been an effect on the vote?
    The Prime Minister: That reason is totally and utterly untrue. Does it not occur to the hon. Gentleman that there are times when we must try to get the names of those who have been killed and inform their relatives before people hear that these things have happened? In addition, there may well be operational reasons why one does not tell the enemy immediately of every loss.
    Mr. Montgomery: Will my right hon. Friend try to study, at some time today, the press reports of the demonstration that took place in London on Sunday and which was graced by the chairman of the Labour Party and by the right hon. Member for Bristol South-East (Mr. Benn)? Will she especially examine press reports to the effect that certain people at the demonstration were shouting "Victory for Argentina"? Does she not agree that this crisis has thrown up some strange bedfellows when the extreme Left wing of politics in this country is supporting the Fascist junta in Argentina?
    The Prime Minister: Whatever the demonstrations that took place, I have no doubt that the vast majority of our people support our task force and our boys in the South Atlantic, who are trying to provide that our people who are under the heel of the Argentine dictator shall have the right to self-determination and democracy.
    Mr. Foot: Some of us on the Opposition Benches have been opposed to the Argentine junta a good sight longer than most Conservative Members. I return to the replies that the right hon. Lady gave on the question of the BBC and some of the broadcasts. This is, of course, concerned with the important matter of how freedom of discussion is to be conducted in this country. Some of us are determined to defend it.
    Before the right hon. Lady pursues further her strictures of the BBC, where I am sure people are seeking to do their duty in difficult circumstances, will she take some steps to reprove the attitude of some newspapers that support her—the hysterical bloodlust of The Sun and the Daily Mail, which bring such disgrace on the journalism of this country?
    The Prime Minister: Taking the view that the right hon. Gentleman does of the Argentine junta, I hope that he will support the Government in their every act——
    Mr. William Hamilton: No.
    The Prime Minister: —to free the people of the Falkland Islands from what he called this "foul and brutal aggression" on the very first day. The media are totally free to discuss and publish what they wish. Equally, as the right hon. Gentleman has demonstrated, we are free to say what we think about them.
    Mr. Foot: When the right hon. Lady asks that we should support every act of her Government, I am sure that she must understand that this cannot be the case. I am sure that, on reflection, she will not wish to press any such claims. I repeat what I said at the beginning. It is far and away the most important aspect of the matter with which

    601
    we have to deal. Whatever may be the views on the BBC, the newspapers and the rest, this House of Commons is the place where the most important issues of all should be debated. I ask the right hon. Lady once again to give this House the chance of judging what proposals may come from the discussions with the Secretary-General. She owes that to the House of Commons and to the country.
    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman has asked the same question. I give him the same answer.
    Mr. Dalyell: On a point of order Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. As long as it is a genuine point of order.
    Mr. Dalyell: In supplementary questions, the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Sir B. Braine) referred, in relation to myself and, I imagine, my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Foulkes), to treachery, and the right hon. Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Oppenheim) referred to dishonour. Some of us who have been in the 7th Armoured Division, who have been gunner operators on tanks and many of whose contemporaries in training were shot up with the King's Royal Irish Hussars in Korea, take it ill to be accused of treachery and dishonour.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I was listening carefully to the exchanges. There was no reference to any individual Member of the House. To make doubly sure, I called the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) after those question were asked. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that he was called afterwards. There was no individual charge about any particular persons in the programme, at least no person belonging to this honourable House.
    Mr. Dalyell: Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I can understand the hon. Gentleman's high feeling but I can deal only with points of order on which I can rule. So far as I am aware, our order has not been breached.
    Mr. Dalyell: "Treachery" is something of a serious word. Can I, through you, Mr. Speaker, if he was not referring to myself or to my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire, ask——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that he cannot pursue the argument in that way.
    Later
    Mr. Dalyell: Normally I am rather relaxed about parliamentary rights, but a charge of treachery
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I have dealt with that matter. If I had thought that the hon. Gentleman had been charged
    602
    with treachery I would have intervened at once, but I think the House is aware that there was no personal charge against the hon. Member. Therefore, there is nothing that I can do to ask anyone to withdraw a general remark.
    Mr. Dalyell rose——
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As I understood the question of the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Sir B. Braine), he referred to those who took part in a television programme last night. Two of the people who took part were my hon. Friends the Members for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) and South Ayrshire (Mr. Foulkes). In that sense, there was a direct connection to the allegation——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I dealt with that matter to the best of my ability. If a personal accusation had been made, I would have had no hesitation in intervening. I cannot pursue the matter.
    Mr. English rose——
    Mr. Faulds: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. English: How can anyone be guilty of treason when Her Majesty's Government refuse to accept 'that Argentina began a war without declaring it?
    Mr. Speaker: I cannot answer that question.
    Mr. Faulds: Mr. Speaker, can I ask you to look at another aspect of the use of the word "treachery" in the House of Commons? Some of us saw fingers being pointed at the two hon. Gentlemen at whom the accusation was being made—we saw fingers being raised—which I should have thought was a pretty specific way of making the point. Regardless of that, since the charge of treachery was made at unspecified hon. Members, is it still nor an unacceptable use of such a phrase, and would it not be for the good health of the House if the use of that word were to be withdrawn by the hon. Member responsible for using it?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. In reply to the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds), I agree that it would be in the interests of the House if, during these difficult days when there is severe tension both here and in the country, we tried to avoid the words "treachery" and "treason'', and such things, because they advance nobody's argument. I hope that we can now proceed. We shall go on to the business motion.
    Mr. Dalyell: Further to that point of order——
    Sir Frederick Burden: On a point of order——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. l am not taking any more points of order.

Falkland Islands
Mr. Eric Ogden: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will know that it is courteous and the custom in this place that an hon. Member, when he proposes to take certain action at a particular time, tries to give you notice. In doing so last week, I got into certain difficulties. The fact that I have not given you notice now, Mr. Speaker, is not discourtesy but caution.
I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"The conduct, progress and direction of the Foreign Secretary's negotiations to achieve a peaceful resolution of the conflict forced on us by the Argentine invasion and occupation of the British Falkland Islands, the defiance by the Argentine Government of the United Nations Security Council resolution 502 while they have increased their forces of occupation, and the apparent willingness of the Foreign Secretary and his advisers to abandon the three principles of unconditional withdrawal of Argentine forces from the Falkland Islands, the restoration of a British administration for the people of the islands and the right of self-determination for the people of the British Falkland Islands, against the quite specific promises given by the Prime Minister to this House and to the people of the Falkland Islands. All of this, if allowed to continue without this House being able to record what hon. Members believe their rightful concern about the risks now being placed on the British task force by prolonged negotiations, the dangers of a surrender in New York, not an honourable settlement, and the ability of this House, as expressed today to remind the Government that the British Act of Parliament which created the Government of the British Falkland Islands and dependencies cannot be set aside for the convenience of Ministers, however powerful or weak, requires that the House discuss these matters urgently, before the Falkland Islanders are betrayed for a second time with even more disastrous consequences for the freedom and for future of the United Kingdom."
Mr. Speaker: I allowed the hon. Member for Liverpool West Derby (Mr. Ogden) to make his application without notice because I presumed that it arose out of the exchanges this afternoon. Otherwise, it would not have been possible to allow him to move his application. The hon. Gentleman asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he believes should have urgent consideration, namely,
"The conduct, progress and direction of the Foreign Secretary's negotiations to achieve a peaceful resolution of the conflict forced on us by the Argentine invasion and occupation of the British Falkland Islands."
Mr. Dalyell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am dealing with an application under Standing Order No. 9.
I listened with great care to the arguments of the hon. Member for West Derby, which he adduced from having listened to the exchanges this afternoon, and which arise out of the matters of this afternoon, but I must rule that his submission does not fall within the provisions of the standing order and therefore I cannot submit his application to the House.

Falkland Islands

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Ordered,
  That, at this day's sitting, on consideration of the Criminal Justice Bill, such new Clauses relating to capital punishment as may be selected by Mr. Speaker shall be first considered, and if proceedings thereon have not been completed by Ten o'clock, Mr. Speaker shall then put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the Clause then under consideration and any selected Amendments thereto and thereafter the Questions necessary to dispose of any other of those Clauses, and selected Amendments thereto, which may be brought up at that time.—[Mr. Thompson.]

University Grants Committee
Mr. Dennis Canavan: I beg leave to bring in a Bill——
Mr. Dalyell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat. I am not taking any more points of order.
3.35 pm
Mr. Canavan: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make the University Grants Committee more representative and accountable and to provide for adequate financing of universities; and for connected purposes.
Among the terms of reference of the University Grants Committee, set up in 1919, was
"to inquire into the financial needs of university education in Great Britain and to advise the Government as to the application of any grants made by Parliament towards meeting them."
Recently, the purpose of the UGC seems to have changed somewhat. Instead of being responsible for the distribution of university finance, it seems now to be responsible for the distribution of cuts in university finance. The circular letter of 1 July 1981 from the UGC meant savage cuts in higher education, which plunged many universities into the most serious crisis in their history. It is proposed to destroy 20,000 student places by 1984, at a time when the participation rate in higher education in this country is poor compared with those in many other industrialised countries.
The Government are directly responsible for the volume of the university cuts, but the UGC must bear a responsibility for the distribution of the cuts. The truth is that, instead of standing up to defend the university system as a whole, the UGC has failed in its duty and is behaving like a docile puppet of the Government, meekly implementing Government policy. Even Lord Robbins, who chaired the committee on higher education that enunciated the Robbins principle and that led towards its implemention—a principle that has now been abandoned by the Tory Government—is on record as saying that he would have resigned as chairman of the UGC rather than implement the Government's cuts.
The present composition of the UGC is heavily biased in favour of an Oxbridge elite, whose main concern seems to be to try to give the maximum protection to a privileged minority within the university system without caring about the consequences for some of the younger and more innovative universities that are not hidebound by ancient, ivory-tower traditions. It seems that the new motto of the UGC is "The smaller and younger you are, the harder we will hit you."
If we examine the academic background of the UGC, of the 18 members and secretary—that is 19 people—we see that 15, nearly 80 per cent., were educated at either Oxbridge or London. Of the 18 universities to suffer larger than average cuts, not one has a representative on the main UGC committee and only three have representatives at sub-committee level.
For example, Stirling university, in my constituency, has no representation on the UGC. It is the youngest university in Britain and the UGC proposals would mean a 23 per cent. cut in the current grant and a 27 per cent. cut in student numbers by 1984. This would bring the student population down to just over 2,000, yet, for the next academic session alone, there are 8,000 applicants for
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a mere 600 first year places. Therefore, Stirling desperately needs an injection of extra finance to cater for the increased number of young people who are applying.
Stirling is not alone. In Scotland, for example, the university of Aberdeen is in a critical situation. Other universities, not just those in Scotland, are suffering much larger than average cuts, including the universities of Strathclyde, Salford, Keele and Bradford and the university of Manchester institute of science and technology.
Some of these institutions specialise in science and technology courses, the very courses that are so essential to bring about an industrial recovery. It seems that the Government, by cutting the number of science and technology graduates, are cutting the supply of the very life blood of British industry, which is so important for our economic revival. Successive appeals by myself, and many other hon. Members on both sides of the House, to the Secretary of State and the UGC, have fallen on deaf ears. That is why I am introducing the Bill.
The Bill proposes an immediate supplementary grant to be given to help those universities which are critically threatened. There would also be a statutory obligation on the Secretary of State to ensure that adequate finance is provided for all universities in future years.
The Bill also proposes a radical restructuring of the UGC to make it more representative and accountable. At present, the UGC has no statutory authority at all, yet Ministers consistently use the UGC to try to avoid accountability. When we put questions to Ministers about individual universities, they try to pass the buck to the UGC and thereby to dodge the questions.
Under my proposals, all universities in the United Kingdom would have the opportunity to take part in elections to the University Grants Committee. Instead of the members of the committee being appointed by the political patronage powers of the Secretary of State for Education and Science, there would be a system of election in which all universities would have the opportunity to take part.
Trade union representatives would also be elected to represent not only the academic staff and their unions such as the AUT but the ancillary staff and their unions—NUPE, NALGO, ASTMS and so on. Those unions also have members whose jobs are at stake as a result of the UGC's decisions. The employment considerations are considerable. For example, Stirling university is the largest employer in my constituency.
To counter any accusations of infringement of academic freedom, I propose that any decisions or deliberations of a purely academic nature should be remitted to an academic sub-committee along the lines of the proposals recently approved by the Association, of University Teachers executive. There could be other sub-committees within the general committee of the UGC. Because of the distinctive features and traditions of the Scottish educational system, I propose that there should be a Scottish sub-committee consisting of representatives from the eight Scottish universities. When devolution becomes a reality, this may develop into a fully-fledged Scottish UGC but, even in the meantime, such a Scottish sub-committee would have a valuable role to play in defending and developing the Scottish university system and improving the liaison between universities and schools and between universities and other colleges of tertiary education in Scotland.

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I ask the House to support my Bill. It is not only about restructuring a committee; it is intended to make the higher education system in Britain more democratic, more accountable and more responsive to the needs of the whole community. It would also help to protect our education system from a dangerous and destructive Secretary of State who, having spent some time at the Department of Industry before his appointment to his present position, and having destroyed much that is good in British industry, now seems hell-bent on destroying much that is good and excellent in our educational system.
At present, thousands of people, particularly young people, are literally queuing up to get into the universities and colleges. The Government are using the UGC to slam the door in their faces. The purpose of my Bill is to turn that closed door into the open door and, eventually, to turn all universities into open universities.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Dennis Canavan, Mr. Martin J. O'Neill, Mr. Harry Ewing, Mr. William McKelvey, Mr. Norman Hogg, Mr. John Home Robertson, Mr. Andrew F. Bennett, Mr. Allen Adams, Mr. Bob Cryer, Mr. Dennis Skinner, Mr. R. McTaggart and Mr. Robert Kilroy-Silk.

University Grants Committee
  UNIVERSITY GRANTS COMMITTEE
  Mr. Dennis Canavan accordingly presented a Bill to make the University Grants Committee more representative and accountable and to provide for adequate financing of universities; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 9 July and to be printed. [Bill 125.]
Orders of the Day
  Criminal Justice Bill
  As Amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  Criminal Justice Bill
    New clause 22

      LIABILITY TO CAPITAL PUNISHMENT
      'A person convicted of murder shall be liable to capital punishment'.—[Mr. Bendall.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      3.45 pm
      Mr. Speaker: I understand that the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Bendall) is going to move the Second reading of the new clause standing in the name of the hon. and learned Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner).
      Mr. John Maxton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There are new clauses tabled on the reintroduction of the death penalty. The new clauses are being introduced into a Bill which, unless it is specifically stated to the contrary, covers England and Wales only. Could you, Mr. Speaker, give the House a ruling—or, perhaps, request one of the Law Officers from either Scotland or England to do so—as to whether, if the new clauses are passed—I am certain that the House will have the sense not to pass them—they would not cover Scotland but only England and Wales?
      Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) awaits a ministerial contribution to the debate, he may—I put it no higher—hear something to his advantage.
      Mr. Vivian Bendall: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
      Mr. Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 19—Death penalty for terrorism involving loss of life—
      'As from 1st January 1983, the penalty of capital punishment shall be available to the courts as the penalty for acts of terrorism involving the loss of human life.'.
      Amendment (a) to the proposed new clause, after 'be', insert 'the maximum penalty'.
      New clause 20—Death penalty for murder by firearms or explosives—
      'As from 1st January 1983, the penalty of capital punishment shall be available to the courts as the penalty for murder by means of firearms or explosives.'.
      New clause 21—Death penalty for murder of police and prison officers—
      'As from 1st January 1983, the penalty of capital punishment shall be available to the courts as the penalty for murder of a police or prison officer.'.
      Amendment (a) to the proposed new clause, after 'be', insert 'the maximum penalty'.
      Amendment (b) to the proposed new clause, after 'a', insert 'uniformed'.
      New clause 27—Death penalty for murder in course of robbery and burglary with offensive weapons—
      'As from 1st January 1983 the penalty of capital punishment shall be available to the courts as the penalty for murder in the course of robbery and burglary which involves the use of offensive weapons.'.
      Mr. Bendall: The clauses deal with the return of the death penalty for certain categories of murder. May I,

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      first, thank you, Mr. Speaker, and the Government for allowing a full debate on this important subject. I tabled the clauses in such a way as to give hon. Members the opportunity at the end of the debate to vote on one or more of the categories. In the past, the vote has always been on the general principle. It had come to my notice that many hon. Members would support, perhaps, one of the categories but not the general principle because, often, the general principle contains social and domestic murders together with crimes of passion. Therefore, my new clauses are specific to avoid that particular problem. I understand that there will be a separate vote on each of the clauses at the end of the debate. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, in that respect.
      In recent years we have seen a serious rise in crimes of violence. The general public have, therefore, become worried and concerned about this trend. They are particularly concerned about murder, especially in certain categories. In the main those categories are outlined in the clauses that I have tabled.
      The death penalty would act as a deterrent. A would-be murderer will think twice before taking a life if he knows that he may well forfeit his own life in so doing. If one examines the homicides that have been reported to the police since 1964—the year the death penalty was done away with on a trial basis—one sees that the figure for murders in 1964 was 296.
      In 1980, the figure was 620. The number has more than doubled in that period.
      New clause 19 deals with acts of terrorism involving the loss of life. The figures contained in the Home Office's 1980 statistics for England and Wales show that there are great variations. It appears that crimes involving terrorism and murder come in spates. In 1974, 43 persons lost their lives and in 1975 the total was 11.
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      I shall deal specifically with some of the problems that we have seen recently as a result of acts of terrorism. In October 1981 there was the disastrous bomb incident at the Chelsea barracks, which killed one widow and injured 40 other people, including 25 Irish Guardsmen and two children. At a later stage it resulted in the death of John Breslin, who died from his injuries. That was followed rapidly by another bomb explosion in a Wimpy bar in Oxford Street. At the same time another bomb was detected in Debenham's in the same area. These bombs could easily have maimed and killed innocent people. Many of the inhabitants of the Wimpy bar were young school children who were on a half-term holiday or some other sort of holiday. We tragically lost one of our explosive experts, Kenneth Howarth, when he tried to defuse the bomb.
      That was followed rapidly in October 1981 by the Dulwich bomb, which severely injured Lieutenant-General Sir Steuart Pringle. The general lost a leg as a result of that terrorist activity.
      These examples in England are far too easily forgotten, until the next incident occurs. As I have said, these activities come in spates. However, in Northern Ireland it is a regular occurrence. Over 2,000 have been killed in Ulster, including the civilians of Ulster, the Royal Ulster Constabulary and more than 400 members of our armed forces.
      It is said that the death penalty would make martyrs of terrorists; I disagree. Last year we were presented with the
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      problem of the hunger strikers at the Maze. Those would-be martyrs saw the silliness of their ways in the end. They were persuaded by parents and relatives not to give up their lives in hunger strikes.
      Mr. Douglas Hogg: Does my hon. Friend agree that we should not restore the death penalty for murders involving terrorism unless to do so would materially assist the task of the security forces? Has my hon. Friend embarked on any discussions with the security forces to ascertain whether they support him in this policy? If he has, what was the result of those discussions?
      Mr. Bendall: I have not involved myself in discussions with the security forces as I feel that it would not be my place to do so. I believe that the death penalty for murders involving terrorism would reduce the number of lives lost. I believe that parents would be persuasive——
      Sir Frederick Burden: Does my hon. Friend accept that he is not in a position to ask any of those killed by terrorist violence for their views on this subject?
      Mr. Bendall: No, I am not in that position. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing that to the attention of the House. As I was saying, I believe that relatives would be able to persuade potential murderers to adopt methods other than senseless and barbaric acts of terrorism if the death penalty were reintroduced.
      Mr. Christopher Price rose——
      Mr. A. J. Beith: I do not wish to discuss the technicality of the argument, because the new clauses do not apply to Northern Ireland, but it is clear that the hon. Member thinks that the death penalty should be restored there. Does he believe that that can be done in the absence of trial by jury?
      Mr. Bendall: I do not think that it could be administered without trial by jury. However, I believe that the death penalty would help in resolving and stopping much of the terrorism that takes place. I have drawn attention to the losses that we have sustained throughout the United Kingdom.
      Mr. Christopher Price: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in a paradoxical way the Diplock courts in Northern Ireland are a greater protection, in some instances, against miscarriages of justice where an act of terrorism has occurred than trial by jury in a heightened emotional situation? Given the number of miscarriages of justice that have taken place and the uncertainty about some convictions, is he happy about hanging a possibly innocent man?
      Mr. Bendall: I have referred to the death penalty and not to hanging. The cases of innocent men being hanged are rare. Nobody would be happy with that, but I believe that we have a duty to preserve human life. The position is becoming serious as crimes of terrorism continue.
      New clause 20 deals with murder by firearms or explosives. The figures of serious offences recorded by the police in which firearms have been involved are serious. In 1970, 1,358 cases were recorded. In 1980 that escalated to 6,587. The incidence of these offences has quadrupled. It is said that many of these cases involve the use of air pistols, but air pistols are often used for armed robbery. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) has introduced a Private Member's Bill that is designed to deal with replica firearms. When a replica or

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      a genuine firearm is used, it is extremely bad for the person on the receiving end, whether or not they are shot. Air pistols can cause serious injuries, given the type of pellets that can now be acquired.
      If the increase in the use of firearms continues, more people are likely to be murdered as more criminals carry firearms. If that happens, more and more police officers will have to be armed. In many respects we shall become like the United States of America. When more of the police are armed and when more criminals carry firearms, there is a greater likelihood of shooting on our streets. That will mean that more innocent people may be killed. Furthermore, when more people become armed there is always the danger that they will become trigger-happy. That is one of the serious problems that faces the United States.
      The use of shotguns in bank raids and post office holdups has increased. In 1972 there were 350 such cases but by 1980 there were 552. The worst year was 1978 when there were 760 such cases. There were about 301 in 1969.
      The use of pistols has vastly increased. In 1972 there were 254 cases involving the use of pistols and in 1980 there were 620. That compares with 233 in 1969. I do not think that it can be argued that the criminal use of firearms is not increasing alarmingly. Serious offences are being committed. The incidence of armed burglary has also increased. In 1975 there were about 77 cases of that sort but there were 102 in 1978. That compares with only 36 in 1970. There has, therefore, been an escalation in those figures as well.
      There has also been a rise in the use of firearms in murder. The figures for the mid-1970s of 46, 43 and 43 compare with the rise to 48 of such offences in 1979. The figures for the late 1960s and early 1970s reveal 23, 30 and 34 cases.
      Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: What about the 1980s?
      Mr. Bendall: The worst year for the use of explosives was 1974, when there were 42 cases. The figures vary because of acts of terrorism. When the coming year's figures are published they will no doubt have risen as a result of what happened towards the end of last year. Crimes using explosives come in spates. It is, therefore, impossible to discern a definite trend in the figures. Nevertheless, the use of firearms and explosives must be stopped. If innocent people are otherwise to be maimed and killed, the only deterrent and the only answer is the return of the death penalty.
      Mr. Harry Greenway: Will my hon. Friend go behind the important statistics that he is giving to the House and explain what motivates men and women to use firearms and therefore to commit the murders that he has described?
      Mr. Bendall: Many people commit crimes. With regard to terrorism, the motive is obviously political. With regard to armed robbery, I firmly believe that those concerned arm themselves because they believe that by shooting their way out of trouble they may not be caught.
      Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: About 70 per cent. of murders are committed within the family environment. That means that if all the murders that were committed
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      with the use of firearms, as given in the statistics, were committed only by strangers, about 90 per cent. of murders committed in any one year by strangers involved the use of firearms. It must follow from the statistics that the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Bendall) is quoting that many of the murders involving the use of firearms occur within the family as crimes of passion.
      Mr. Bendall: I refer the hon. Member for York (Mr. Lyon) to page 52 of the Home Office "Criminal Statistics for England and Wales 1980". At paragraph 3.3 he will see a graph showing that the figure for robberies committed as a result of the use of pistols and shotguns is nearly 1,000. I have obtained all of my statistical figures from that paper.
      I turn now to the murder of police and prison officers. They do a difficult job in difficult circumstances. They should have the protection of the death penalty. If such protection is not offered to them, I predict that within the next decade most policemen will be armed. That is a horrifying prospect. Even more criminals will arm themselves. Shooting in the streets will increase. Police and criminals alike will become victims if that is allowed to happen. I do not believe that the police want to be armed any more than they are now.
      In the 17 years prior to the death penalty being abolished, 11 police officers were murdered. In the 17 years since the death penalty was abolished, 27 have been murdered. That is another doubling of the figure. The figures speak for themselves. Only this year, Detective Constable Porter of Durham was murdered while chasing armed robbers who had snatched a payroll. One of his colleagues was also injured. PC John Egerton of Greater Manchester was murdered near Bolton, having disturbed someone siphoning petrol from a van in a factory yard. Detective Constable John Sanford, also of Greater Manchester, was recently murdered at Manchester airport. He died as a result of head injuries sustained when carrying out investigations. Those are three examples of police officers who have been murdered already this year. Only last weekend, a policewoman, Beverley Townsend, was attacked in Fulham. Fortunately, she sustained far less serious injuries than might have occurred. That is to say nothing of the regular murder of members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. The total of their dead is now nearly 150.
      4.15 pm
      Prison warders also deserve our protection. With the use of firearms increasing at its present rate, criminals may try to release their friends who are in prison, or prisoners might themselves organise their release.
      I turn now to the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr. Browne) to new clauses 19 and 21. The death penalty should not be regarded as the maximum in a scale of penalties. It should be the deterrent. It should fit the crime. The amendment to new clause 21 which deals with uniformed police, presents problems. If one of the new clauses is accepted today, there should be a further debate on the matter, as it would need to be clarified, and, presumably, new legislation would be required.
      Mr. J. Grimond: May I ascertain exactly what the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Bendall) means in new clause 19? It says:

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      'As from 1st January 1983, the penalty of capital punishment shall be available to the courts as the penalty for acts of terrorism involving the loss of human life.'.
      Is he suggesting that capital punishment is mandatory and that the courts will have no other penalty available to them?
      Mr. Bendall: As I understand it—I tabled the new clause—that is so.
      I turn now to new clause 22.
      Mr. John Wheeler: Before my hon. Friend moves on, will he tell the House whether he believes that any jury in the country will convict if new clause 19 becomes law?
      Mr. Bendall: I entirely accept that the jury must make the decision. I was referring to uniformed officers. The matter should be further debated if the new clause were approved.
      I fully support my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner) on new clause 22. I should like some clarification. Does it include social and domestic murders and crimes of passion? The House would welcome clarification on that.
      I confirm that I shall support new clause 27 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor). It is important, as it deals with mugging and other offences that are committed on the street and in the home. Moreover, it covers one of the principal concerns of the public about murder that is often committed as a result of mugging.
      The public have become extremely anxious about law and order. They have witnessed the figures for crimes of violence rise to more than 100,000 in 1981. The Home Secretary has vastly strengthened the police and has put more constables back on the beat. I warmly congratulate him on his efforts in that direction.
      Mr. Robert Kilroy-Silk: New clause 27 provides that:
      "the penalty of capital punishment shall be available to the courts as the penalty for murder in the course of robbery and burglary which involves the use of offensive weapons."
      How does the hon. Gentleman justify the penalty of capital punishment in cases where the murderer has used a knife or a gun but not where the victim has been strangled, perhaps in hideous circumstances? Is that not an invidious anomaly?
      Mr. Bendall: There are always anomalies in these matters. One would not deny that. Certainly, however, I believe that, statistically, robbery involving violence with an offensive weapon is more common than strangulation.
      The Home Secretary is to be congratulated on the increase in the police force, honouring the Conservative manifesto pledge to the public at the last general election, but the general public are still concerned at the number of murders taking place in our society. The police should have the added protection of the death penalty. This view has been clearly expressed in opinion polls. In the 1975 opinion poll, 64 per cent. favoured capital punishment. In the 1981 Gallup poll the figure was 69 per cent., and in the Gallup poll just a few weeks ago 78 per cent., 75 per cent. and 74 per cent. favoured the death penalty for certain categories of murder. The Police Federation has received more than 200,000 signatures in favour of capital punishment and I suspect that many hon. Members have received letters supporting it. In the correspondence that
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      I have received, the ratio is 30:1 in favour. Moreover, I have today received a petition from the Manchester and Merseyside areas, with 125,000 signatures, seeking a binding referendum on the question of capital punishment.
      Those figures give a clear picture of the views of the vast majority of the British people. They want the death penalty restored for certain categories of murder. Parliament is well aware of that. I believe that the death penalty would act as a deterrent. The elderly and the young in my constituency, and I am sure in those of many other hon. Members, are worried about going out at night, using subways or opening their doors after dark. I shall not go into detail, as that is well known to all of us. I believe that this would also provide added incentive for parents to accept more responsibility for correcting their children during their formative years. It might also, in time, lead to more discipline in our schools. The young must be taught the difference between right and wrong and it is in youth that the problems first begin. If the problems can be resolved at a far earlier stage, so much the better.
      I believe that the restoration of the death penalty would also stop the senseless killings that often take place around football grounds during and after matches, as in the recent instance at Highbury. [Interruption.] Hon. Members may laugh, but to me it is not a laughing matter for a young man to be found dying in the gutter as a result of a serious attack after a football match.
      The House has a very serious decision to make. It must examine its conscience and it cannot ignore the feelings of the vast majority of British people who call for the return of capital punishment for certain degrees of murder. That is needed if law and order are to be maintained, democracy upheld and lives preserved.
      Mr. Roy Jenkins: The hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Bendall) has undoubtedly raised a very important issue of deep public concern at this time, although I did not find the way in which he presented his arguments persuasive.
      I have two reasons for wishing to speak in the debate. First, I have the most recent direct contact with the electorate—fairly intensive contact in two by-elections in the past year—and I know that there is concern about this matter, although in neither case was the electorate in any doubt about my views. Secondly, for two separate periods, I held the office of Home Secretary and had to discharge the heavy responsibilities involved in these matters.
      Those experiences certainly do not leave me in any mood for dogma on this and other issues. There are many questions relating to crime and punishment to which none of us knows the answer and we mislead ourselves and the public if we pretend too much that we do. There are great dangers, as perhaps the Government and the Prime Minister found after the last election, in trying to make this a party issue. [HON. MEMBERS: "She did not"] The right hon. Lady did. I was interested that eventually, in February or March, she agreed with the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr Callaghan) that it did not make much difference who was Prime Minister when dealing with these difficult problems.
      No one can fail to be impressed by and to take seriously the deep sense of concern about violent crime and the fear that it provokes which is now in the minds of many people, particularly, although not exclusively, the old. It would be quite wrong for any of us to pretend that the forces of enlightenment are entirely on one side in this matter or to

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      try to dismiss as a mere desire for atavistic vengeance the feelings of those who search for some protection that they believe would make them feel more secure.
      Therefore, in considering this matter, I have tried to set aside what I regard as the traditional arguments against the death penalty—those which certainly persuaded me and were deployed with great force in the debates leading up to the 1965 decision. I have always regarded the in some ways corrupting and certainly macabre ritual of the death penalty as repugnant, but I believe that it is one's duty to set aside those feelings if one believes that the death penalty will help to give security and protection to people who feel great need for security and protection at this time.
      Having said that, I am not so persuaded, for three reasons which I shall try to state briefly.
      First, the worst form of mass murder and mutilation that we have experienced recently has without question resulted from terrorist acts on a mass scale. The hon. Member for Ilford, North referred to 1974. In that year, 21 young people were killed in a pub bombing incident in Birmingham. At that time, I was Home Secretary and I represented a Birmingham constituency. It was my duty to visit in hospital not those who had been killed, but the many who had been mutilated not just in that incident but in four or five others. What is involved is, therefore, deeply engraved on my mind. I have been as close to it as any hon. Member, with perhaps a few exceptions, such as the right hon. Members for Stafford and Stone (Sir H. Fraser) and Sidcup (Mr. Heath) who have experienced direct attacks.
      4.30 pm
      As the hon. Member for Ilford, North made clear, terrorism is a major threat. On the face of it, it would be curious to suggest that we should have the death penalty for some forms of murder, but to exclude it for terrorism. That is not what the hon. Gentleman suggested, but it is what I believe some hon. Members may have in mind. I do not believe that it can begin to be convincingly argued that capital punishment for terrorism would be either wise or protective.
      First, is the death penalty to be used in Northern Ireland or only in Great Britain? I remember the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), now Secretary of State for Education and Science, announcing his conversion to using it in Great Britain, but saying that it must be excluded from Northern Ireland. It seemed to me a most extraordinary proposition. One comes forward with what is said to be a unique and effective deterrent, but where the threat is greatest the sword is left in its sheath and it is drawn only where the threat is less. I find that a difficult proposition to accept. Yet—and the intervention of the hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg) was pertinent to this view—almost everyone—one must never be too extreme in a statement—who has been directly concerned with security and the administration of the law in the horribly difficult circumstances of Northern Ireland knows that the death penalty would make things worse, not better.
      The most knowledgeable convert is the Home Secretary himself who, of course, abolished capital punishment in Northern Ireland in 1972. The right hon. Gentleman has certainly learned from his experience. Apart from anything else, it would make it impossible to continue with
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      the Diplock courts. Could anyone seriously argue that we could have the supreme penalty without trial by jury in one part of the United Kingdom?
      Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will consider this point. I do not know whether he considered it when he was Home Secretary. If the treason law is applied, where the death penalty exists anyway and it becomes recognised that acts of terrorism create the offence of treason felony because every one of the persons concerned commits treason against the State, that might make it unnecessary to amend the terrorism new clause. Why has that law not been brought into effect? Surely, if the law needs to be amended, it can be done in that way. That would take into account the large number of IRA murders that have been perpetrated.
      Mr. Jenkins: To be honest, I do not understand the force of the hon. and learned Gentleman's argument. I am concerned with the substance, not the legal form. I am concerned with whether hanging, or any other form of judicial killing, for terrorist crimes would give greater or lesser security to the innocent.
      My point was whether one could possibly use the supreme penalty—even if it were thought right for other reasons—without trial by jury. Whether one uses the Treason Act, or any other Act, one still has to have a trial with, in my view, a jury. If we were to abandon the Diplock courts in Northern Ireland, I believe that we could say goodbye to the majority of convictions for terrorism. We would have less, not greater, protection.
      Moving from Northern Ireland to the general terrorist position in the United Kingdom as a whole, I do not believe that it can be argued with conviction that capital punishment would be a deterrent against a determined and vicious terrorist. Surely the experience of the past year or so has made that argument even clearer than it was before. Nine or ten hunger strikers have starved themselves to death in an Ulster gaol. One could not argue that they would have been deterred by the fear of death. They sought death for the purposes of their own perverted cause. How much more glamorous—if one may use the word in that horrible context—and striking for their perverted purposes it would have been had they met death upon British gallows than in the squalor of starving to death in a hospital bed. How much more frightening might have been the consequences for other people. How much more dangerous the repercussive elements might have been. I believe that in the major category of terrorist crime the death penalty would not protect but would further endanger innocent lives.
      We have many other applications before us. Leaving aside the illogicality in proclaiming the unique value of the deterrent and then not being able to use it in cases of the worst form of slaughter, it has long been attractive to some people to seek different categories, despite the general disillusionment with the attempt to do that in the Homicide Act 1967, which lasted for seven years and proved extremely difficult to administer. What categories are raised? There are police and prison officers. Although numbers are small by international standards, it is a grave matter when a police officer is killed in the course of duty. There are too many.
      What are the most important aspects of the effectiveness of the police to combat crime? First, the

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      understanding and support of the public. Secondly, the likelihood of the courts convicting the guilty whom the police have apprehended. I doubt whether capital punishment would help in either case. It would perhaps hinder. If there were a different and more severe punishment for killing policemen than for killing a civilian—perhaps a young girl bank clerk who endeavoured to resist a criminal and to uphold the law—would that help relations between the police and the public and the degree of mutual support which I regard as absolutely crucial?
      Next, there is the likelihood of conviction. Police opinion on that matter is not unanimous. I am well aware of the position of the Police Federation, which I respect having had dealings with it over many years. I do not agree with its view on this matter—a view which it has held for a long time.
      In 1974 the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, without being asked by me, spontaneously stated that it was his view and that of four out of five of his most senior officers that capital punishment would be a hindrance, not a help. I have not inquired about the position since then. I do not believe that senior police officers should be canvassed in this respect. I tell the House that because the statement was volunteered to me. Why did they take that view? It was not, I think, out of softness, but for fear that capital punishment would make conviction more difficult to achieve and leave the police less well protected at the end of the day.
      Another question, which is for the House, not the police, is that of majority verdicts in criminal trials. I introduced that provision into the Criminal Justice Act 1967 and it went through, but not without considerable opposition and difficulty in the House. It was something of a cross-party issue, although most of the opposition came fom the Conservative Benches. I make no great point about that.
      It was a difficult change to introduce, but in my view it is now widely accepted. It has worked well and it is valuable and important in the fight against crime. More than 10 per cent. of convictions are now secured by majority verdicts. Those especially affected are the most hardened and professional criminals. Could we continue with majority verdicts in capital cases if the ultimate penalty were to result? It would be a difficult question to answer. If we say that majority verdicts are not acceptable in one category of cases, might not that undermine the position of others?
      One would have difficulty in obtaining convictions, not out of sentiment but occasionally because of corruption, supineness or perhaps a scintilla of genuine doubt in the minds of the jury. Some possibilities of doubt are too great to be shrugged aside. I have been concerned with 10 capital cases in which there were varying degrees of doubt. Some turned out to be wrongful convictions. Some cases raised doubt—sometimes substantial doubt—which led to it being clearly shown that there had been a miscarriage of justice. In others there was just a scintilla of doubt which left a lingering feeling of uncertainty. There have been one or two further cases since then. That is not a negligible proportion. During the 20 years after the Second World War when capital punishment existed, 186 people were sentenced to death. Not all of them were hanged, but two were and others might well have been.
      That leads me to the conclusion that the death penalty is too final for the frailty of human judgment, especially
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      as there is no convincing evidence that it would give greater security and a very strong argument that, in major cases of terrorism, it would increase the danger.
      In present circumstances, some may say "Let us try anything, especially what the public wishes." While I in no way dismiss public views on this matter easily, that is not a responsible attitude for the House. We do not live in a plebiscitary democracy, except recently on rare major constitutional issues, nor should we. I hope that the House will exercise its current judgment tonight, as it has on previous occasions, and reject the new clauses.
      Mr. Edward Heath: It is a pleasure to welcome the first speech of the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) since he returned to the House. He spoke with all the distinction of a former Home Secretary and it is well known that I find myself in agreement with his views. My contribution this afternoon will be very brief and largely personal. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Bendall), who introduced the new clauses, emphasised the immense increase in crimes of violence in Britain. That is undeniable, but it has led to confusion in the minds of the public between crimes of violence and homicides. The increase in the former has led to the view that the increase in homicide is also vast and therefore requires the drastic remedy of the reintroduction of capital punishment.
      I do not believe that to be the case. Of course the increase in crimes of violence is of the utmost importance to society and every credit goes to the Home Secretary and to the Government for the steps that they have taken in trying to deal with the problem in modern times. We, all know that circumstances are now very different from what they were in the past. The facilities for crimes of violence are far greater than they have ever been and the difficulties of coping with them are also measurably greater.
      I hope that we may concentrate upon the essential matter that we are discussing today, which is the reintroduction of capital punishment for homicide. I read an article in The Times by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Fairbairn), the former Solicitor-General for Scotland, who assumed that to have a proper deterrent one should place capital punishment at the disposal of the courts for any crime of violence. It is difficult to believe that that would be acceptable to public opinion, let alone the House, and it is not really the answer to the problem that we are facing.
      4.45 pm
      I was intimately involved in the preparation of what became the Homicide Act 1957, with Lord Kilmuir as Lord Chancellor. Our purpose in preparing that Act was to try—I say it quite openly—to bridge the gap in the Conservative Party between those who believed in capital punishment and the abolitionists. At the same time we hoped that it might succeed in bridging the gap in the House of Commons. To begin with, Mr. Sydney Silverman, who was a most redoubtable fighter for the abolition of capital punishment, I think also believed that.
      The Act was passed. It distinguished between different categories of homicide. The critics said that the Act meant that if a public man was shot while crossing Parliament Square the death penalty had to be used in that case. If, however, a man poisoned his wife, it was purely a matter between the two of them, and the case should not be affected by the death penalty. The basic point was that the

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      Act, although passed by the House of Commons, with many doubters, was not acceptable to public opinion for one moment.
      The reason was quite simple. Our fellow citizens said that they recognised that the life of a policeman or a prison officer was very important, but in what respect was it more important than the life of a citizen who was killed by some chance bullet during a bank raid? That question was impossible to answer satisfactorily to the public. I must say with great respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North, who is trying in the new clauses to categorise homicide in various ways, that even if he succeeds it will not be acceptable to public opinion for the reasons that I have given.
      Mr. John Carlisle rose——
      Mr. Heath: That seems to me to be a compulsive argument to which I have never heard an answer, unless my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, West (Mr. Carlisle) has one now.
      Mr. Carlisle: Is it not true that policemen and prison warders are exposed to dangers that the general public need not face and that they therefore require further protection?
      Mr. Heath: That is not acceptable in the minds of the public, because today they believe that they are just as exposed to danger. That includes the risk of being shot by someone who is carrying out a bank raid because one happens to be in the way or, as the right hon. Member for Hillhead said so movingly, because of the whole question of terrorism today, which is a feature not just of Britain but of the modern world.
      We must face the question—is there to be a restoration of the death penalty in all cases or should we remain as we are at the moment? I have heard no arguments in the years since capital punishment was abolished to persuade me that it should be restored. Indeed, the only arguments that I have heard have reinforced my view that it would be a mistake to do so.
      However, there is still the question of terrorism, about which we have heard. I was Prime Minister when the death penalty was abolished in Northern Ireland. Of course, the Government did it knowing that those dealing with terrorism on the spot at tremendous risk to themselves did not believe that the death penalty helped them in any way. We took that decision in that full knowledge. I believe that remains the situation.
      As for the police, they require the support of all sections of the community. I can understand the view of many of them but we must not overlook the views also of other members of the police, known to ourselves, who do not believe that capital punishment would be a help to them. This is why I regret the Police Federation's campaign in the press, not because it has caused an immense amount of work for Members of Parliament but because the Police Federation should endeavour to secure the support of all sections of the community, regardless of its view, particularly on questions such as this. Moreover, when chief constables decide to become again the silent service, it may be better for all of us and we shall form better judgments of the real problems of society and of the best way in which to help the police.
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      The right hon. Member for Hillhead mentioned my experience of terrorism. I do not believe that the death penalty would have prevented the attacks on my life; nor would it have prevented my house from being blown up, nor a further attempt being made to do so. Nor would it prevent further attacks in countries overseas. I do not believe that the existence of the death penalty would help, and I am not asking that it should.
      The real point which is emphasised to me by many constituents is that, even if the death penalty is not a deterrent, murderers deserve to die. This is the question of revenge. Again, this will be a matter of moral judgment for each of us. I do not believe in revenge. If I were to become the victim of terrorists, I would not wish them to be hanged or killed in any other way for revenge. All that would do is deepen the bitterness which already tragically exists in the conflicts we experience in society, particularly in Northern Ireland.
      Mr. Percy Grieve: My right hon. Friend characterised the demand for the taking of a life upon the taking of a life as revenge. May it not be said that society shows its respect for human life by exacting the death penalty against those who have deliberately taken life?
      Mr. Heath: My hon. and learned Friend is right in saying that that is a point of view which can be put forward. It is not one which I share. It leads me to the next point.
      The one substantial change which I have noticed since the abolition of the death penalty is the revelation of the number of people who have been wrongly condemned. This was just touched upon by the right hon. Member for Hillhead. The number is seen to be considerable when compared with the figures of those who are charged with homicide. To me it is unforgivable that one should take a life judicially through the State in this way. Therefore, that alone has strenuously reinforced my opposition to the reintroduction of the death penalty.
      There are, of course, those of my constituents who have written to me and said, roughly in a similar way to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North, that there are bound to be mistakes sometimes and that if innocent people suffer by mistake and lose their lives that is a good reason why, if people are wrongly condemned, they should lose their lives also. This is not an argument I can share or a view with which I can agree. Because there has been one mistake, one should not therefore indulge in a process in which other, equally grievous mistakes are made. That is not an argument in which I agree with my constituents.
      Dr. M. S. Miller: May I draw to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the murder in 1969 for which Patrick Meehan was convicted? The lady who was murdered was my aunt. Let me assure the right hon. Gentleman that in the whole family there was no desire for revenge. When I spoke to my uncle he showed no desire for revenge, either. It was evident at the time that there was an element of doubt. The family was happy and pleased that there was no capital punishment at that time, because otherwise an innocent man might have been hanged.
      Mr. Heath: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. When I said that the argument was one of revenge I was not referring to any specific case and I had none in mind. I was referring purely to the letters

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      which I have received, largely as a result of the Police Federation advertisement, from all over the country in which people say that, even though the death penalty may not deter, somebody who has committed this crime deserves to die. That is not a view which I can accept.
      We all know that for many years there has been a major difference of view between Parliament and public opinion, as expressed in the best way in which we can see it, through public opinion polls. It is well known that I do not support the constitutional doctrine of a referendum. However, I sometimes think that if a referendum were fought openly up and down the country the views of the public as expressed in public opinion polls might prove to be different. That is purely a matter of judgment. At the moment we know that there is a great gap between public opinion and the House of Commons. This situation is not only regrettable but always extremely difficult for society and Parliament.
      We should carry out our basic responsibilities. I know that some of my hon. Friends, and perhaps some who have come to the House of Commons after recent elections, feel very much torn between the views of their constituents, often expressed forcefully, and their own views as to what should be done in these matters. If it is not presumptous of me, I would ask them to go back to Edmund Burke and remember that he said:
      "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion."
      In these matters we should hold to our own judgment as we best can.
      Mr. Greenway: Would my right hon. Friend not agree that this is the greatest moral issue which faces the country or which could face the country? Is it not reasonable and perhaps right that it should be put to the conscience of each adult and that a referendum would not be wrong in that sense?
      Mr. Heath: No. I take the contrary view. I will not argue which is the greatest moral issue facing us individually or the country because that would lead me into other fields which are not appropriate today. Each of us should have the courage and responsibility to form his own judgment and his own views and then act upon them in the Division Lobby.
      If I may reinforce what the right hon. Member for Hillhead said, my constituents, in what after all was originally a marginal seat, have known my views on this subject for more than 20 years. I can assure my hon. Friends that that is not the most difficult or unpleasant thing with which I have had to contend in politics. I have survived this public knowledge and we still remain on perfectly good terms. This is a great issue, but it is in our hands and we should accept our individual responsibility for deciding it.
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      Mr. Kilroy-Silk: The House owes a sense of gratitude to the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Bendall) for having given us yet again the opportunity to debate this serious and important issue. Like the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) and the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), I hope that we shall tonight deal effectively once and for all for the remainder of this Parliament both with the general principle which
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      is enshrined in new clause 22 and with the several variants that the hon. Gentleman and his friends have put before us.
      I hope that the House will decide not to reintroduce capital punishment, either as a general principle or in the four ways that have been itemised, for four main reasons.
      First, capital punishment is clearly not the unique deterrent that its advocates claim it to be. Evidence adduced in Britain and abroad shows clearly, convincingly and overwhelmingly that capital punishment does not deter the commission of murders and homicides. The evidence of an exhaustive examination in America, where comparisons were made between abolitionist and retentionist States in relation to the number of homicides, the number of police officers killed and the number of prison officers who were assaulted or killed, was that there was no substantial difference between those American States which had abolished the death penalty and those which had retained it. On that basis, there does not seem to be the evidence which its advocates would like to claim that capital punishment acts as a deterrent to homicide or to murder.
      The hon. Member for Ilford, North said that the number of capital murders had increased since the abolition of the death penalty. However, that increase happened before capital punishment was abolished. Many of the murders that have subsequently been described as capital would probably not have been so categorised if the death penalty had still been available. There has been a corresponding increase in crime generally, particularly in violent crime, for which the penalties have not changed and therefore cannot be said to have had a deterrent effect upon those offences.
      Secondly, it is difficult to categorise those homicides which should be subject to the death penalty. We all know that the vast majority of murders in Britain are domestic murders; they occur in a family context. It is far more likely that if one is murdered it will be by someone one knows rather than by a cool, calculating, vicious, premeditative stranger in the streets. Most of those murders are committed in emotion such as rage and often by people who are severely mentally unbalanced. By their very nature, they are not susceptible to deterrence. The return of the death penalty will have no impact at all on such murderers.
      Mr. Rees-Davies: For the sake of completeness, the hon. Gentleman must point out that in those instances there was always a reprieve by the Home Secretary. There was never any question of the death penalty applying for domestic murders.
      Mr. Kilroy-Silk: I beg to take issue with the hon. and learned Gentleman. He has far more experience in the courts than I, but if he had read the 50 cases cited in the report of the Royal Commission on capital punishment he would know that in many such cases both men and women have been hanged in the past. He is wrong to suggest that the kind of murders that I have just described were never liable to the death penalty, because clearly they were.
      It is because most hon. Members accepted that domestc murderers were not susceptible to deterrence and therefore should not be liable to the death penalty that a series of distinctions were drawn. The Homicide Act 1957 detailed those distinctions, which everyone acknowledged to be invidious and anomalous. We have the same kind of distinctions now in some of the clauses before us.
      Mr. Gary Waller: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the most notorious domestic murders which made capital punishment repugnant to the public was that by Ruth Ellis? She was hanged when the Home Secretary found himself unable to grant a reprieve. It is certainly not the case that domestic murderers were immune from capital punishment. That case made a great impression on the public.
      Mr. Kilroy-Silk: The hon. Gentleman is right. That confirms what I said. That case was one of many other so-called domestic murders for which capital punishment was exacted.
      We acknowledge that the death penalty should not be available in those circumstances and attempt, as we did in the Homicide Act, to distinguish the most heinous category of murder which should be subject to capital punishment. The hon. Member for Ilford, North has put several options before the House today. However, I do not believe that poisoning or strangling is a more honourable or noble way of killing than shooting. The hon. Gentleman obviously believes that they are more acceptable and more honourable. In new clause 20 he propounds that those who shoot shall be hanged but he does not suggest that such retribution should follow those who carry out the far more heinous, despicable, premeditated and calculated acts of poisoning or strangulation.
      New clause 27 makes murder in the course of robbery and burglary susceptible to capital punishment, but not murder in the course of rape. Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that a murder carried out in the course of a robbery, perhaps a minor robbery, or a burglary, which may be insignificant, is far more serious than a murder carried out in the course of a rape? Is he suggesting that the House and the country should regard offences against property as more important than offences against the person? Of course they are not.
      That is precisely the point that was made by the right hon. Member for Sidcup. Once we accept capital punishment for certain categories—as the hon. Member for Ilford, North has done tonight—once we try to draw distinctions and determine the appropriate categories, all kinds of invidious anomalies and injustices arise, some of which I have referred to and some of which were referred to by the right hon. Members for Sidcup and for Hillhead.
      New clause 21 provides that capital punishment shall be available for the killing of a policeman or a prison officer, but not, as the right hon. Member for Hillhead pointed out, for the murder of a security guard, a post office worker, a counter clerk or a bank clerk, who may not have interfered in the robbery at all but just been an innocent bystander. Alternatively, such persons might have interfered, tackled the assailant, put up a courageous struggle and been killed. Yet the hon. Gentleman does not regard such deaths as important enough to warrant capital punishment. Any policeman or prison officer murdered in whatever circumstances is somehow regarded as a more superior citizen. Such anomalies have always been the bane of attempts to introduce capital punishment and are just as valid now as they were in the past.
      Reference has been made to, and there is a clause tabled for debate on, capital punishment for acts of terrorism. The right hon. Members for Sidcup and Hillhead have effectively demolished the arguments in that respect. Clearly the availability of the death penalty will not deter terrorists. They are not the type that are likely to be
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      deterred. Indeed, they are likely to be attracted by the risk and adventure involved in embarking on a political cause that has the added attraction of being more dangerous because they may be hanged if they are caught, or subjected to some other form of final punishment. Many of them would welcome the martyrdom that hanging brings.
      Presumably none of us would wish to countenance the possibility that, while a terrorist awaited the carrying out of the death penalty or the result of his appeal, his colleagues might take hostage schoolchildren, political leaders, or members of the Church or of the public in order to secure his release. Presumably we are aware of the consequences if we suggest that capital punishment should be available for terrorism per se. The comments made by the right hon. Member for Hillhead about the absence of jury trials forcibly makes the point that, although hon. Members and the public may want capital punishment for, above all, acts of terrorism, it is the most inappropriate method of reducing terrorism.
      My final reason for believing that we should not vote in favour of capital punishment is the possibility of mistakes. Mistakes have been made. There is now serious doubt about at least 13 cases in which people were hanged. It is accepted that in three of those cases a mistake was made. In one case, that of Timothy Evans, the mistake has, in a sense, been recognised by the granting of a posthumous pardon. We cannot countenance the possibility that by taking such an irrevocable step an innocent life might be taken judicially, in cold blood, by the State.
      Such a negative attitude would have a deleterious effect on prison staff and on those who have to try to cope with the overcrowding and the appalling conditions in our prisons. Many of them would be unable to cope with the fact that a civilised society intended to deal with offenders in that way. It would lead to many resignations from the prison service and would change the atmosphere for both prisoners and prison officers.
      Unlike the right hon. Member for Sidcup, I do not necessarily believe that the overwhelming majority of the public are at variance with the House. However, I accept—given the evidence of opinion polls and the letters that I receive—that that would seem to be the case. In opinion polls and debates the public answer one simple question in the heat of the moment, when they may be in an emotional state. They simply have to respond to the question "Do you believe that capital punishment and hanging should be made available again?" In a simplistic way, their reply is "Yes".
      If the public were asked to define the individual against whom, or circumstances in which, capital punishment should be used, the substantial majority in favour of a return to hanging would be substantially and quickly eroded. If they were asked whether the death penalty should be made available for those aged under 18, for women, for the murder of policemen in one set of circumstances but not for the murder of a bank clerk or a post office worker in another set of circumstances, for a female terrorist, for a 16-year-old terrorist or for a terrorist when conviction might lead to the taking of hostages, the apparent majority in favour of a return to hanging would quickly disappear.
      Whether or not it disappears is irrelevant. As the right hon. Member for Sidcup rightly said, we must decide. We are representatives, not delegates. As in 1979, we must

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      decide on the basis not of prejudice or dogma, but of what we believe, on a full, dispassionate and reasoned examination of the facts, is in the interests of our constituents. The return of capital punishment in any of the categories mentioned in the new clauses would not be in the interests of my constituents or of the country. It would not reduce terrorism or the incidence of homicide. It would give no greater protection to the police or to prison officers. If I could be shown convincingly and clearly that my beliefs were false, I might vote differently. However, that evidence is not available and, therefore, I hope that a majority of hon. Members will vote against the introduction of any of the new clauses.
      5.15 pm
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: The hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Kilroy-Silk) is an engaging and eloquent speaker. Just because he says several times that certain things are true, he expects us to assume that he is right. The same is probably true of the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins). He constantly assured us that capital punishment was not a deterrent and that there was no evidence to show that it was. He said that it would do nothing but damage.
      I shall challenge some of the assumptions that have been made. The hon. Member for Ormskirk said that, although there had been an increase in the number of murders since the abolition of the death penalty, the trend had begun before then. How does he know that? Where is the evidence? If he is in any doubt, he should look at "Criminal Statistics England and Wales 1980" that he so often cites. Does page 61 prove the hon. Gentleman's point? That page shows that between 1957 and 1965, when capital punishment was abolished, the number of homicides reported to the police remained virtually constant. Immediately after that there was a substantial rise in the figures and the number of murders now reported to the police is more than double the figure in 1964, the year before abolition.
      The same is true of Scotland. Until recently I was a Scottish Member of Parliament. In the 20 years before abolition in Scotland there were about three convictions for murder per year. After abolition, the figure rose to about 30 per year. The fact that the hon. Member for Ormskirk believes that the number of murders has not increased and that capital punishment is not a deterrent does not mean that that is true. There is a danger here, because a few people give the impression of having great wisdom. Their arguments should be carefully scrutinised.
      Like all hon. Members, I was impressed, as always, by the contribution made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath). He spoke with his usual eloquence and sincerity. It was reassuring to listen to a former Chief Whip saying that hon. Members must be motivated only by their consciences. Chief Whips would do well to put more emphasis on that point of view when they are in that position. However, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup and the hon. Member for Ormskirk may accept that the Burke doctrine is not relevant in the same way to every issue. We will make a grave mistake if we consider public opinion on this issue in the same way as we consider public opinion on issues that can be determined at general elections. Every five years people can decide about the running of the economy and so on. They have a choice. Therefore, it is fair and reasonable that hon. Members should exercise their judgment on such issues as they arise.
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      However, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup might accept that the situation is different if people cannot decide on an issue every five years and if the politicians of the major parties tend to be drawn from a group with one consistent point of view while the majority of the public hold a different point of view.
      This important debate has, of course, been overshadowed by the serious conflict in the South Atlantic. Innocent British citizens living in peace have been attacked and subjected to the rule of a totalitarian aggressor. Although the Falkland Isles are geographically distant from this debate, the principle at stake is similar. The facts of the international rule of law are similar to those involved in the battle against violence at home. Those facts show that when we possess strong and frightening deterrents against aggression—as NATO has established in Europe—peace is maintained. However, where a credible deterrent is not believed to exist, aggression can take place in a second, and lives can be lost.
      Of course, there are those who, like the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell), reject the whole deterrent theory, and believe that both at home and abroad we should abandon our defences and rely in the last resort on moral persuasion and passive resistance. It is perfectly logical to hold that point of view, although in my view it is foolish and irresponsible. What I find difficult to accept is the view of those who are perfectly willing to support the expenditure of vast sums of money on the most appalling and frightening weapons of mass destruction—not because they want to use them or because they want to lay waste cities, but because, as they say, "We preserve the peace and we deter aggression"—but are not willing to restore a law that would threaten killers and men of violence at home with the death penalty.
      Mr. Sydney Bidwell: Does not the hon. Gentleman accept that, short of war, when one can contemplate even the firing squad, it would be a mark of national decadence to reintroduce capital punishment? Could he personally dispose, in a rational moment, of a human life? If not, why does he impose that on other people and, in the last resort, through the reprieve powers of the Home Secretary, place in his hands the disposal of a human life?
      Mr. Taylor: Those who support capital punishment do not want to kill more people, but we genuinely believe—and the evidence supports our view—that it would lead to the saving of innocent human life. I am sure that few of us on these Benches or on the Labour Benches who vote for the clauses tonight will do so because we believe in revenge or because we think that it is an appropriate penalty. We do so only because the evidence shows—in my view, overwhelmingly—that if we had such a deterrent we would save innocent human lives. We do not know who those individuals might be. They are people whom we cannot identify. Most people would accept, I believe, that there are people in Britain today who will be murdered next year, and whose lives could be saved if we had the deterrent of capital punishment.
      I hope that some of my hon. Friends who are abolitionists will face the moral principle. If they believe that capital punishment, as the right hon. Member for Hillhead said, is something too macabre and horrible to contemplate, why do they go into the Lobby to support the

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      spending of billions of pounds on horrifying instruments such as Trident, neutron bombs and atom bombs? They say that they are deterrents which save lives. If capital punishment is so macabre, is not an atom bomb more inhuman and awful? Is not the moral principal exactly the same? I support both nuclear weapons and the death penalty, not because I want them to be used" but because I believe that they will save innocent human life.
      There appears to be ample evidence that when deterrents are removed law-breaking increases. During the 20 or 30 years when official policy under Governments of both parties appeared to be designed to erode deterrence, there was an appalling increase in crime and a rising tide of violence. Of course, there are individuals and nations whose activities are so irrational that nothing can deter them, although the numbers involved are far fewer than is generally assumed.
      Those who have spoken against the clauses have said "Where is the evidence? If there were evidence we would accept it". What kind of evidence do they want? Which facts should be established? Surely we must accept that what was a relatively stable rate of killing increased fairly dramatically after abolition, and is now more than double what it was. The argument that some hon. Members use is that surely violence has gone up, too. I suggest that we should remember that many of the crimes of violence would have been murder had it not been for the skills of our surgeons in hospitals. There are many of us who believe that the increase in the carrying of weapons since abolition has led to the increase in violence as well as to the increase in killing.
      Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: The hon. Gentleman talks about the relatively stable number of murders before 1965. On the table to which he referred us, it is clear that in the decade before the abolition of capital punishment there was an increase of about 30 per cent., and there has been an increase, since the abolition of capital punishment, of 50 per cent. I accept that that is an increase, but it is hardly a relatively stable position against a dramatically increasing one.
      Mr. Taylor: The hon. Member for York (Mr. Lyon) is quite wrong. If he looks at the page, he will see that in 1957 the number was 321. In 1964, the year before abolition, the number was 296. In other words, the figure had actually gone down since 1957. That is on page 61. It was a relatively stable figure of around 300. After abolition of course, it went up, and more so in Scotland.
      Mr. Maxton rose——
      Mr. Taylor: I shall not give way. We should accept that the rate of killing has increased substantially, as has violence.
      There is a second factor on which I hope that some of my hon. Friends will comment. If they are looking for evidence, surely they will accept the simple fact that, since abolition, there has been a substantial increase in the carrying of firearms, guns, airguns and sawn-off shotguns. The evidence is overwhelming. If my hon. Friends think that that has nothing to do with capital punishment, can they give any logical reason why there has been an increase of more than 500 per cent. in the number of serious offences involving the use of firearms during the past 10 years?
      Mr. Wheeler: Does my hon. Friend accept that, in the past 15 years, the success of the crime prevention industry in the manufacture of bank vaults and safes has meant that the professional criminal no longer attempts to break into a bank vault, but is obliged to go directly for the money? Is that not the reason why more sawn-off shotguns are being used? Crime has rolled over from one position to another. The question is: how do we stop it at the second position?
      Mr. Taylor: My hon. Friend gives a counsel of despair. He is saying that if we want to stop our properties being damaged, we should leave our windows open and our doors unlocked. That is not an answer. My hon. Friend is saying that, because safes are more secure, criminals have to be more clever. That is not much compensation to the general public, who look to the Government to protect the law-abiding public.
      If people like the right hon. Member for Hillhead and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup do not think that this is the reason, what other reason is there for the massive and sharp increase in the number of serious offences involving the use of firearms?
      The hon. Member for East Kilbride (Dr. Miller) spoke of the tragic case in which his family was involved. He has made his views clear. If he believes that deterrents do not work, does he not recall the appalling outbreak of razor slashing in Glasgow, which was rather similar to the outbreak of mugging in the South? Gangs ran round the Glasgow streets carrying open razors and carving up people's faces. What stopped that? It was stopped because the late Lord Carment imposed substantial sentences of over 10 years on three of the persons involved in those crimes. He said that others would get the same. The outbreak stopped. It is another example of how deterrents work. We should appreciate that if we erode the deterrents we are inviting an increase in crime.
      Apart from the general argument, there is the matter of definition. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup was right about the possibility of creating anomalies once one tries to make a distinction. My right hon. Friend explained why the 1957 Act had been introduced. Apparently, the reasons involved keeping the Conservative Party happy—somewhat different from protecting the public. The 1957 Act tried to base the definition on the motives of murder. These four new clauses seek to make the basis of the definition the means of murder—whether guns, knives and explosives are carried and used. The best way to stop violence and murder is to try to stop individuals carrying weapons or other means which can be used in offensive conduct and in assault and robbery. That is why the four new clauses have been presented. That is why we have tried to identify and put forward a reasonable definition that can separate murders that can be deterred from those that the majority of people regard as not being able to be deterred.
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      The one real argument that makes any person supporting capital punishment stop and think seriously is the appalling possibility that a mistake might be made. Many supporters of capital punishment are concerned about that because it is the one great argument that can undermine the determination of anyone ever to look at such a policy. I accept that it is the greatest and most serious argument against the use of capital punishment,

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      because its finality makes the possibility of error a desperately serious moral as well as important issue in all other respects.
      The new clauses stress that capital punishment should be available to the courts. There is an element of discretion for the judge and there is the sifting effect of the jury. There is also the protection of the Royal Prerogative. Taking into account the extent by which human conduct can be controlled in a realistic and reasonable fashion, the new clauses have been drawn up in such a way that the possibility of an error is probably remote in relation to the benefits and saving of life that I believe will stem from the introduction of capital punishment and from the reduction in violence that will result. If there is any other reasonable suggestion as to how the new clauses could be amended to make those safeguards more secure, I am sure that the sponsors will accept them.
      At this time we must accept that the responsibility of the House of Commons and the Government is to protect the law-abiding public. I accept that the House must make its own judgment, but it would be a major error to ignore entirely public opinion. We must remember as politicians that the country belongs to the people, not to the politicians. I accept that within the framework of the policies that are advanced at the time of general elections there must be complete freedom for individuals to exercise their judgment. It would be wrong to disregard the fact that capital punishment is not the policy of any party.
      It is a fact that crime has been increasing substantially, that mugging has been increasing and that a large number of people are living lives of hell because they are not able to follow a peaceful existence due to the activities of small groups of rowdy people, vandals and men of violence. We have a duty to protect those people. What worries me is that if we do not take this action and make it clear that we in the House are determined to do all in our power to control violence and killing we shall let down all our constituents, irrespective of their views.
      The evidence is overwhelming. The abolition of capital punishment has led to more guns and knives being used, and to more killing. There is overwhelming evidence that deterrents deter. For that reason I hope that the House will change its opinion and will take the first step towards the restoration of capital punishment.
      Mr. Ron Lewis: I cannot go all the way with the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor), but only part of the way. Every hon. Member, whatever view he or she may take on capital punishment, should strongly condemn as loudly as possible the outbreak of violence. An example could be set if some of our television programmes could be adjusted to meet the needs of the people so that they do not see the present programmes of violence that are churned out on both channels.
      My contribution will be short and personal. Like other right hon. and hon. Members I have had a number of letters and petitions from constituents arising from the decision of the Police Federation to raise the question of capital punishment again. I have had letters from individuals. A resolution was passed by the Methodist church of the Cumbria district. It asked me to uphold the decision of the Methodist Conference in 1979, which was not to support bringing back capital punishment.
      I shall relate an experience that I had only a few months after I arrived in the House in 1964. Sydney Silverman had introduced his measure to abolish capital punishment. I
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      followed the dictates of my conscience and moral grounds. In the Division Lobby I supported Mr. Silverman on the abolition of hanging. Just after I had voted in the Lobby as a constituency Member there was an unfortunate incident in the county of Cumbria. A maniac had broken loose and he was tracked down to the waiting room of Oxenholme police station. Three officers of the Cumbria police went that dark February morning to that wailing room. One opened the door. As soon as he broke in the maniac fired his gun and unfortunately my constituent, police constable George Russell, was shot dead. The two others with him were injured.
      Before Sydney Silverman had brought in his Bill I had never received one letter from my constituents asking me to support capital punishment. However, I received a large number of letters asking me to vote for its abolition, but after that unfortunate incident my postbag was full of letters from my constituents asking me to support capital punishment.
      I had to follow the dictates of my conscience and take into account moral grounds. I stood upon moral grounds and followed the dictates of my conscience. Someone has said that when one has lost one's conscience, there is nothing else worth losing.
      I went to the funeral at the cathedral and heard the chief constable praise his force. However, despite all that, I continued to support Mr. Silverman's Bill, which became law. I well remember during some of our debates healing Mr. Henry Brooke, now Lord Brooke, who was Home Secretary for a number of years. As Home Secretary, Henry Brooke reprieved more condemned prisoners than any other Home Secretary. I recall that his speech had a great impression on the House.
      Like many other hon. Members, from time to time I have a word with policemen. Some of them have a word with me from time to time. I have been pulled up for a parking offence twice, but be that as it may. Last hack-end I spoke to a policeman in his house just after the Police Federation made its decision. The policeman did not express an opinion either for or against capital punishment. During my conversation with him he recalled that eight years previously his duties included attending a prisoner who had been convicted of murder. While on duty he played cards and dominoes with the prisoner and talked with him. After almost every shift with the prisoner he went home and said to his wife "I am convinced in my own mind that the chap is innocent". That was his conviction arising from the conversations that he had with the prisoner when carrying out his duties as a police officer. About eight years later the prisoner walked out of prison a free man, having been given a pardon by the Home Secretary.
      Some hon. Members may ask about my constituents. At every election that I have fought in Carlisle the Christian churches have asked for a joint meeting with all the candidates. I remember one such meeting that took place after service one Sunday night. The Conservative Party candidate, David Bloomer, the Liberal candidate and myself were there. Naturally, all kinds of questions were fired at us. One of the main questions was "Where do you stand on the issue of capital punishment?"
      During the election campaign the then Leader of the Opposition, now Prime Minister, gave an undertaking, rightly so, that the whole question would at least debated in the House if the Conservative Party won the election. In fairness to the Prime Minister, that was duly carried out.

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      At the meeting I made it clear where I stood. The Conservative candidate said in no uncertain terms that if he was elected as Member for Carlisle he would not, and could not, support bringing back the death penalty. His wife, who was at that meeting, was even more vociferous. The only person who would hang everybody was the Liberal candidate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where are the Liberals?"]. This is not a party point.
      Therefore, when people write to me I can reply that I gave an undertaking before the election that if the subject was debated in the House of Commons I could not, and would not, support the reintroduction of the death penalty. I would follow, on moral grounds, the dictates of my conscience.
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      I have received many letters from members of various religious denominations. Many have attempted to base their argument on the scriptures in asking me to support bringing back the death sentence. I stand by the Bible, although I admit that there is much I do not understand. I suppose that we could all use the scriptures to justify whatever argument we support, but I do not want to decry the Bible. I wish that there were more people who read the Bible than read The Sun. Our morals would be much better if there were.
      I am not a virtuous person. I try to follow the dictates of my conscience and to abide by the law, but there is one thing more important to me than the scriptures. I therefore pose this question. If the Lord Jesus, whom I profess to follow—I hope I do—with all my failings and faults, was in the House tonight, on whatever side, into which Lobby would he go? I have no hesitation in saying that he would support the continued abolition of the death penalty.
      The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. William Whitelaw): It would be tempting for me to follow the hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. Lewis), whose constituency is beside mine, in the history of Cumbrian politics over the period that we have both been Members in that area. It would be tempting for me to comment on my own experience of these matters in different spheres or to follow the speeches made so far. I must not, in my capacity as Home Secretary, do any such thing.
      My principal task in this debate is to help in placing before the House the considerations which must be applied to the issue of the death penalty. In so doing, I shall follow the long-held convention that the Government take no side on the issue itself. That is a matter for individual Members voting freely according to their own personal judgment. I hope, therefore, that what I have to say will assist hon. Members, whatever their predisposition may be, to vote in the full appreciation of all the factors involved.
      It is, as I have said, a matter for Parliament, not the Government. There are sincere and deeply held views on both sides of the argument on this subject in the House and in the country at large, but it is for Parliament, and Parliament alone, to come to its own conclusion.
      In my efforts to assist the House, it is inevitable that I should hark back to the substance of the debate that the Government provided for in the House on 19 July 1979. I make no apologies for that, since much of what was said then bears directly on the substance of the new clauses now before us. The balance of the arguments may change—and
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      it is an important function of the new clauses to test the preponderance of view then expressed—but the arguments and the background to them remain basically the same.
      For many, of course, the argument is already settled in their own minds, and they will hold fast to their views whatever may be said in this debate. On one side is the view that those who kill unlawfully and deliberately automatically forfeit their own right to life, and judicial execution is, therefore, a just retribution. On the other side are those whose belief in the sanctity of life leads to the unshakeable conclusion that to take life as a judicial act is wrong in itself and contrary to the moral standards on which the laws of society should be founded. Others, perhaps taking the view that the moral and ethical arguments either way cancel each other out, rely on their own objective assessment of all the factors surrounding the issue in which one, or a small number of factors, may tip the objective scale one way or another. I belong to this group. As Home Secretary that is no bad thing since it is my duty in that office to give the House a careful appraisal of the arguments which have to be weighed in reaching a decision.
      This debate, like the one held in 1979, takes place against the background of widespread concern about the rate of crime, and in particular violent crime. Some of that concern is expressed in a belief that capital punishment not only acts as a deterrent to the would-be murderer, but has the function of re-establishing respect for the law in general. Those who base their call for the restoration of capital punishment on the argument of deterrence have to make the case. The evidence was reviewed in 1979 by three eminent criminologists, and their findings were published in New Society. They concluded:
      "There has been much research, but the results are either inconclusive or suspect."
      As they said, there is no reliable evidence to show that capital punishment has a unique deterrent effect. Those who claim this have not established their case.
      It is true that in England and Wales the figures for homicide since the abolition of capital punishment in 1965 are greater than for a comparable period before abolition, but the upward trend started before 1965 and has not changed substantially since.
      Mr. Maxton: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
      Mr. Whitelaw: Yes, but I do not want to do so when I am trying to put forward the facts.
      Mr. Maxton: Perhaps I may inform the Home Secretary that over the past three years in Scotland there has been a substantial decline in the number of murders.
      Mr. Whitelaw: The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) and my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) may prefer to argue their cases between one another, and perhaps I should leave them to do so. It is better that I do. Later in my speech, I shall return to the point about Scotland, which is important.
      Turning to the more general effect of the availability of the death penalty, it must, I think, be remembered that it has been applied in practice in this century to a small minority of offenders convicted of murder. It seems unlikely that the general rate of crime is influenced by the existence or otherwise of capital punishment. Recorded offences of violence against the person have increased on average by about 10 per cent. a year since the beginning

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      of the 1950s. Capital punishment was abolished in 1965 and there has been no significant change in the trend of offences of violence since then.
      It is often said that while there is no positive evidence that the availability and exercise of the death penalty had any significant effect on homicide rates or the level of crimes generally, its abolition has encouraged professional criminals to carry and use firearms. There are no reliable figures against which to test this proposition. The official statistics date only from 1969. Although there has since been a considerable increase in the number of recorded offences in which the use of firearms was reported, the increase has been similar to the increase in all recorded offences. For example, there has been no significant change in the proportion of homicide or robberies in which the use of firearms was reported. That proportion remains small. In the last five years it has been about 8 per cent. for robbery and about 6 per cent. for homicide.
      I turn now to a consideration of the practical implications which would attend the reintroduction of the death penalty. The first fundamental question that would arise is: which crimes should be made capital offences? Very few of those who might support the principle of the death penalty would, I suspect, support its application to all types of murder in all the circumstances in which the offence is committed. A substantial proportion of convictions for murder arise from domestic incidents, and there is, I think, a widely shared feeling that such killings ought not to attract the death penalty.
      I take that as just one example of an attempt to draw a dividing line between more and less heinous types of murder to determine which offences ought, or ought not, to attract the death penalty. This would make liable for execution the burglar who, in a panic, strikes out at the householder who disturbs him and then finds that he has killed him, but would absolve from the death penalty the man who deliberately over a period slowly poisons his wife to death. Would this distinction be right and just?
      An exhaustive study of the problems of definition of types of murder for the application of the death penalty was carried out by the Royal Commission on capital punishment which, under the chairmanship of Sir Ernest Gowers, reported in 1953. It concluded that there was no satisfactory means of drawing in law a distinction between one class of murder and another. Whatever approach was adopted with the objective of defining a class of murder in which alone the infliction of the death penalty was appropriate, anomalies arose in which the issue of life or death could not properly be resolved.
      Despite the finding of the Gowers commission that any approach along those lines was impracticable, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) pointed out, the Homicide Act 1957 attempted one. It reserved for the death sentence the following categories: murder in the course of theft; murder by shooting or explosion; murder while resisting arrest or escaping from custody; murder of a police officer or a prison officer on duty; and a second murder committed on a different occasion.
      The Act did not work as intended. It failed in practice to separate the more from the less atrocious murder. Killings of equal atrocity were capital or non-capital according to whether or not the weapon was a firearm. Anomalous and controversial decisions arose from the difficulties confronting the courts in the interpretation of the concept of murder in the course or furtherance of theft.
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      These problems gave rise to considerable disquiet about the administration of the death penalty and were, I believe, a contributory factor in its abolition just eight years later.
      Against that background, the practicability of seeking to restrict the application of the death sentence on any rational and just basis must remain open to grave doubt, and that doubt cannot, to my mind, be resolved by further limitations on the categories of capital murder.
      Murder of a police officer on duty is an example which is often put forward as an obvious and self-contained category, and a new clause to that effect has been tabled. This is an understandable reflection of the support which the community wishes to give the police in their often dangerous duties. They certainly merit all the practical support that may be given in their efforts to counter crime in all its forms. But it is questionable whether it would be right to select for the application of the death penalty murders where the victim is a police officer. Such murders fill us all with particular abhorrence. Could we in justice permit capital punishment in such cases but withhold it for the murder of, say, post office staff or bank clerks?
      Another category covered by the new clause is the murder of a prison officer. Thankfully, no prison officer has been murdered since 1965. Nevertheless, we must bear in mind that, with the increase of life sentence prisoners and in the proportion of violent people in custody generally, the task of the prison service has become more difficult and potentially more dangerous over the years.
      The prison system is indeed beset with serious problems. I have every confidence in the ability of the prison service to tackle them, and I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the men and women in the service who daily cope with the stresses of prison overcrowding. But to make the murder of a prison officer a capital offence would raise precisely the difficulties inherent in applying the death penalty to the murder of a police officer. There are many other types of murder, depending on the subjective considerations which must inevitably be brought to bear on this question, where an equally strong case might be argued for the availability of the death penalty.
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      One of the new clauses suggests another approach by reference to whether the method of killing was by a firearm or by explosion. I dealt with the use of firearms earlier in my speech. I would add only that other forms of murder—for example, by knife or poison—may involve a degree of callousness and viciousness which is quite as dreadful as that which may be involved in the use of firearms or explosives.
      The application of the death penalty for murder of the kinds that I have mentioned and reflected in some of the new clauses, therefore, raises very difficult issues of principles and practice. They would be quite as difficult to resolve as they were under the Homicide Act 1957. Separate but perhaps even more problematic considerations apply to the remaining major category—terrorist crime resulting in death.
      None of these considerations featured, of course, in connection with either the 1957 Act or the 1965 Act. The resurgence of IRA activity started later, but not. I should say, later than the abolition of the death penalty in Northern Ireland, which was effected in July 1973 under the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act of that year. I do not wish to make too much of that fact, since

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      no death sentence has been carried out in Northern Ireland since 1961. However, it does call into question whether the availability of the death penalty is a significant deterrent to terrorist activity. More significant, perhaps, is the experience of the appalling events in Northern Ireland in which it is palpably evident that many hard-core fanatics are prepared, even anxious, to put their lives at risk and even to take their own lives. It is difficult to believe, in the light of that experience, that many—if any—such people would be deterred by the prospect of judicial execution. Indeed, it is a tragic fact that some would welcome it in its offer of martyrdom and propaganda value for the cause they represent.
      We should also consider the probability that the reintroduction of the death penalty would encourage the trend towards recruitment by terrorist organisations of young people. There would not, I think, be support for an age limit lower than 18 for the application of capital punishment. Some young people below that age are already on the fringe of terrorist activity and might be moved to its centre to thwart whatever objectives might be attached to the death penalty.
      There is also the issue of reprisals. We have already seen how terrorist organisations justify their taking of life as a reprisal for action against their members. They do so even when their members have ended their own lives. The question that has to be answered is: would capital punishment, administered in the hope of deterring terrorist crimes, in practice lead to more deaths and injuries not only of hostages but of those closely associated with the trial and execution? Perhaps the question is unanswerable in any conclusive way, but those implications must surely be weighed in the balance.
      Those considerations are central to the issue whether terrorist crimes should attract the death penalty. There are others concerned with the scope, extent and administration of the law which also raise special difficulties. We would need, in the first instance, a definition in law of terrorist crime for the purpose of determining in individual cases whether the death penalty was available. How certain and clear-cut such a definition could be is open to doubt.
      Beyond that problem, there is the question of scope. Parliament remains responsible for enacting criminal law throughout the United Kingdom. On a matter as fundamental as capital punishment, it is clear that the law must be uniform in England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
      I should like to mention to the hon. Member for Cathcart a technical point. As this is a Criminal Justice Bill for England and Wales, any new clause added to the Bill would not apply to Scotland. I should, however, advise the House that, in any event, if the House decides to pass any of the new clauses, we could not proceed on the basis of the new clauses alone in a Criminal Justice Bill. We would have to come back to the House with a new Bill that would carry through the will of the House expressed in the new clauses. Any such decision would have to be added for Scotland.
      In Northern Ireland, as the House will know, the impracticability under present conditions of securing conventional and proper trial by jury means that nearly all serious offences, and all those involving terrorism, are
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      tried by special courts without a jury. As a result, the decision on which a man's life rested would be for the judge alone. Would that be acceptable to Parliament?
      That brings me back to the arrangements that would need to be considered in relation to the availability and exercise of the death penalty in the United Kingdom as a whole. The new clauses suggest that the death penalty should be the maximum but not the mandatory sentence, as it was before it was abolished.
      There are, of course, arguments to be deployed both in favour and against the mandatory death sentence. Briefly, those for consist of the burden imposed on judges if they have discretion in this special instance, and the need to ensure consistency of sentencing, which is best served by quiet consideration by those detached from the trial itself. The arguments against rely on the principle that the judges should have discretion, since they are as well placed as anyone to make the right decision.
      This fundamental issue would need to be resolved. It would lead in turn to the question of arrangements for considering clemency. The House would need to decide whether this task should, as before abolition, fall wholly on the Home Secretary of the day or should be discharged in some other way.
      There next has to be considered the change made to our jury system in 1967, to which the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) referred, under which majority verdicts of 11: 1 or 10: 2 are permissible under the judge's authorisation. Would such a majority be acceptable when a man's life hangs in the balance? Would it be justifiable to provide for unanimous verdicts only in capital cases? We should also bear in mind that if a juror was determined to avoid the awful responsibility for conviction for which death was the penalty, the acquittal of murderers from whom the public is now protected by life imprisonment might be the result; and, of course, as hon. Members have frequently mentioned, execution following mistaken conviction is irreversible.
      No system can guarantee to avoid mistaken conviction. The case of Timothy Evans is well known. Apart from murder, there were, in recent years, the notorious cases of Dougherty and Virag, in each of which the accused was wrongly identified as the criminal. The House will be familiar with other cases. They are exceptional, but they occur.
      I turn now to the means of execution. The Gowers commission concluded in 1953, after surveying practice both here and abroad, that hanging, as carried out in this country, was at that time the most humane method of judicial execution. "Most humane" in this context is, of course, a relative term. Whether it would be right to reinstitute the arrangements for hanging which, after nearly 20 years of disuse, would require the revival of the skills needed for that method, or whether some other means should be adopted, would be a matter for the House to consider. But, whatever the chosen method of execution, we should acknowledge that such an event would attract, as it did before, interest of a macabre kind as well as public demonstrations from those wholly resolved against the death penalty.
      That concludes my survey of the issues that, as Home Secretary, I believe are significant in relation to the new clauses under discussion. They demonstrate that, underneath what may on the surface be a simple proposition, there are matters of great difficulty and complexity, which Parliament would have to face if, by

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      a vote in the House today, a new clause were included in the Criminal Justice Bill. In that event, the Government would need to consider the means of achieving the exact basis on which capital punishment was to be made available. As I said in the 1979 debate, the problems in bringing forward and seeking agreement on precise legislative proposals to take account of the issues of principle and practice that have been raised in my contribution and many others would be an immensely difficult task. As Home Secretary, it would be my duty to prepare legislation to give effect to the will of the House, and that I should do.
      From our last debate on this subject the House is well aware of my personal views on capital punishment. I must make it clear that they have not changed. Indeed, everything that I have learned during the past three years as Home Secretary confirms me in the view that to bring back capital punishment would not produce the results intended by hon. Members who propose this, and might, indeed, produce the reverse effect. For that reason, Mr. Speaker, the House will wish to know that I shall be voting against the new clauses.
      Mr. Roy Hattersley: Most of the speeches that we have already heard have dealt with what I call, with no disrespect and in terms of a compliment, the practical effects of the restoration of the death penalty—the practical effects on the level of crime and on the nature of society. I wish to do much the same in the time that I intend to occupy. Before I do that, I must, in conscience, make it clear to the House that I oppose the return of capital punishment in principle and without reservation. I believe that it is morally wrong for the State to execute a man or woman, whatever crime that man or woman may have committed.
      There are occasions when the State possesses the right, indeed the duty, to take life, but, in my view, there is a major difference between say, acting to prevent a terrorist from taking or jeopardising another life, and capturing a criminal and calmly and coldly executing him of her after commitment to custody. To equate those two situations lies at the heart of the confusion that has characterised much of the capital punishment debate over the years.
      To equate those situations is to assume that the practice of specific protection is the same as the theory of general deterrence. Protection and deterrence are not the same thing. While I believe that most of us would find it possible, perhaps easy, to justify the protection that I have tried to describe, the theory of deterrence seems to me, even if it can be demonstrated—a point to which I hope to turn in a moment—to be based on much more difficult moral grounds.
      To execute one man to deter another seems to me to be indefensible. So does the execution of a man for whom the theory of deterrence, by definition, has failed. I regard the evidence that purports to demonstrate the practical effects of capital punishment as a deterrent to be, at best, unconvincing. I shall try to demonstrate what I see as its inadequacy in a moment. However, I must say, and I must repeat in honesty to the House, that even if I believed the arguments concerning the deterrent to be valid, I should still regard it as my moral duty to vote against the return to capital punishment.
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      Some hon. Members, and more people outside, I suspect, support the principle that lies behind the new
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      clauses for reasons that they will not object to me describing as fundamentalist. Some assert that anyone who takes a life should forfeit his own life. That must be what the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Bendall) meant when he talked about the punishment fitting the crime.
      Others say, regarding the dictum as self-evident, that those who have committed such an appalling crime have lost any right to continue to live themselves. That can be regarded either as self-evident or as meaningless. I hold the second opinion. A few hon. Members, and certainly many people outside, extol the virtues of vengeance and proclaim the necessity for retribution.
      An article putting forward that point of view appeared in a popular newspaper yesterday, offering the rather alarming theological suggestion that the enthusiasm for vengeance had declined with the reduction in Christianity in this country. I take the view that vengeance has no place in a civilised community. I hold the opinion, with all the strength at my disposal, that retribution is not a principle that we should consider including in legislation.
      I suspect that many right hon. and hon. Members who will go into the Lobby in favour of the new clauses tonight do not hold that opinion either. They support the amendments because they think that a return to capital punishment and a return to hanging—it is hanging about which we are talking—will reduce the crime rate. They believe that terrorism would be suppressed, burglars would no longer carry guns and muggers would attack no more. The best that can be said for those arguments is that there is no evidence to support any of them.
      The argument that a return to hanging would be a solution to our rising crime rate seems to me to be possibly, and perhaps even probably, one of the factors that militate against the attack on crime, and crimes of violence in particular, that all hon. Members wish to see. For too long, the most vocal campaigns against rising violence have suggested, have asserted, have felt absolutely confident, that a return to draconian punishment would in itself reduce our crime rate. By asserting that, they have diverted public attention and perhaps even Government enthusiasm from the real deterrents to crime.
      The real deterrents are the certainty of arrest and the likelihood of conviction. Those of us who talk, either in principle or in practice, of our opposition to a return to capital punishment are in no way arguing a course of action that makes crime less likely to be detected. It is possible to argue that deflecting the community, the Government and the police from the real methods by which society can be made more law-abiding is doing what is called law and order a disservice.
      The return to capital punishment in one new clause on which we shall be asked to vote this evening might well increase both lawlessness and support for the lawless. I can think of nothing more likely to help terrorists and terrorism than the ritual execution of willing martyrs. The hon. Member for Ilford, North gave a list of past horrors as if describing what terrorists had done in the first place and then proposing a return to capital punishment for the men and women who had committed such wicked acts was, in itself, a demonstration that capital punishment would prevent those acts from occurring in the future. That is not simply wrong but diametrically wrong. The evidence of the recent past is that many terrorists are not simply willing to die, but, bizarre and macabre though we may find it, positively anxious to die.

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      I shall take an example from the distant past, for in a sense that is less painful. I think of Dublin in 1916, distasteful though it is to consider the real patriots of the Post Office on that Good Friday in the same paragraph with some of today's political hooligans. The facts of 1916 are clear. If the arrests had not been followed by the execution of the prisoners who were taken in the Post Office, 10 years of bitterness, hatred, murder and mayhem would not have followed. I have no doubt that the execution of terrorists would have disastrous consequences, not for them and for their organisations, about which we care little, but for the communities that they terrorise. That is the frightening illogicality in the letter that all hon. Members received from the Police Federation today.
      Dr. M. S. Miller: Will my right hon. Friend not agree that, in that respect, the name of Kevin Barry still lives on in Irish circles nearly 70 years after he was executed?
      Mr. Hattersley: It exists and has become a symbol, for right or for wrong, in a way that—I agree with my hon. Friend's implication—would not have been the case had he not been executed.
      Mr. John Carlisle rose——
      Mr. Hattersley: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman in a moment, after I have dealt with this point. It leads me to what I described as the frightening illogicality in the letter that all hon. Members received from the Police Federation today.
      The letter states that the terrorists would not be the martyrs were they executed, and that the martyrs are the victims of terrorism. I do not disagree with that, but I want to make fewer martyrs in both categories—the bogus martyrs the terrorists claim to be, and the genuine martyrs who would be killed more often by terrorists seeking this awful and ultimate penalty.
      There is a second real problem about the concept of executions for what are called terrorist offences. That is what the Home Secretary described as the real difficulty of finding a definition of terrorism. Clearly there is a great philosophical difficulty in doing that but there is also a major distinction that this House has always resisted. The hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) said that all the amendments were intended to reintroduce the concept of capital crime, according to the method by which the murder had been carried out. That is wrong because new clause 19 clearly intends to reintroduce capital punishment according to the motives of the person who had murdered an innocent victim. It specifies terrorism. If we are to take action against terrorists, we are taking action against people by judging their motives.
      We have always refused in the House absolutely to draw a distinction between political crimes and other crimes. We have always said that it is no worse, and no better, to kill a bank manager in order to give the funds to the IRA than to kill a bank manager in order to keep the money for one's own purpose. Introducing the definition of terrorism as a special offence which receives a special punishment is introducing into our law a concept of a political crime. Were there no other arguments against that clause, that seems to be a conclusive reason for rejecting it.
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      The problem of definition also lies at the heart of the difficulty, I would say the impossibility, of classifying murder as a capital or non-capital crime according to the profession or activity of the victim of the murder.
      Mr. Kilroy-Silk: My right hon. Friend has outlined the pragmatic and compelling arguments against the restoration of capital punishment for terrorism. If those arguments, which are compelling, are accepted, does he not agree that there is therefore no way of restoring capital punishment and no justification for its restoration for any similar but lesser offence?
      Mr. Hattersley: I am about to make a point which is, perhaps, directly related and certainly obliquely related to that by talking about the categories of crime which might be regarded as suitable for capital punishment according to the nature and profession of the victim. But, at the moment my hon. Friend came in, I made the point that characterises all that I have said—that I am against capital punishment in principle and without exception. Like my hon. Friend, therefore, I am easily led to the conclusion that one argument against a specific call for capital punishment is a conclusive argument against capital punishment in general.
      I was talking about the difficulties of making the killing of one category of individual a capital offence and not making it a capital offence to kill another. We can all supply examples of the absurdity into which the law would fall—for instance, a man who is executed for the killing of a policeman on duty but not executed for killing a passer-by who came to the assistance of an injured policeman, or a person who is executed for killing a prison officer who tried to prevent an escape but not executed for killing the pedestrian who tried to intercede once the prisoner had got over the wall. Such distinctions seem to be wholly unacceptable as a way of determining the right to life or the risk of death. Talk as we will about public opinion, I believe that outside there will be a general revulsion about introducing capital punishment in a way which is plainly inconsistent between one group of potential murderers and another.
      If we are to execute any murderers at all I share the Home Secretary's view that it is almost impossible to defend the concept that we exempt the slow poisoner who kills for financial gain, yet hang everyone who kills with a gun or a knife. I shall be interested, as the debate goes on, to hear any justification for making such a distinction. I suspect that following speakers, like those who have preceded me, will not attempt to do so. They will say that they are not interested in the search for philosophically acceptable definitions or discrete and consistent categories. They will say that those arguments are less important than deterring all the categories of violent crime which have increased year by year since capital punishment was abolished.
      It is wholly wrong to decide such a fundamental matter in those terms. To say it is to be decided in those terms is to make up our minds according to expediency rather than principle. It is much more difficult to justify making up our minds in those terms when the evidence on which the call for expediency is based is, in fact, propped up by such flimsy facts and such unreliable figures.
      I say again, so that the House will not be in any doubt, that even if I believed the deterrent effect to apply I would not vote for the new clauses tonight. But I cannot argue

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      against the contention that the evidence which is brought to bear in both directions is genuinely and absolutely meaningless for statistical judgment on the return of capital punishment.
      When we last debated this matter, the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths), who moved the restoration motion, wisely announced that he proposed to avoid statistics. On the same occasion, the Home Secretary avoided them as well. If I may say so, without offence to either Member, I think the Home Secretary avoided them for far better reasons. The Home Secretary said:
      "While the statistics can be, and indeed are, called in aid … to support either side of the argument, the only sensible conclusion to reach is that their evidence is inconclusive."—[Official Report, 19 July 1979, Vol. 970, c. 2047.]
      I believe that that is half right. Those hon. Members who have looked at the tables of figures provided by the Library are tempted to take our own selective examples of high crime rates in capital punishment countries or low crime rates in non-capital punishment States, in the United States of America for example, and to draw what I agree to be generally phoney conclusions.
      The only real conclusion that can come from international comparisons and the record of crime in this country since abolition is that there is no genuine and adequate way of relating crime in general, or murder in particular, to the presence or absence of the death penalty. The figures prove nothing whatsoever. The Home Secretary is right to say that today, and was right to say it two years ago.
      But the fact that the figures do not prove one argument or the other does not mean that the figures have nothing to teach us. The fact that the figures prove nothing shows that there is no correlation between the prevention of crime and the presence of capital punishment. The absence of any relationship between them means that if we were to reintroduce capital punishment today, and if we were voting for hanging today, we would be doing it as a matter of hunch and guesswork.
      We should be doing it because plain men say that it only stands to reason that if they knew they were going to be hanged they would not go out with the cosh, the revolver, the jemmy and the knife. Although that sounds as if it has a superficial plausibility, although, indeed, it does have a superficial plausibility, the evidence to suggest that that is how the criminal mind works, and that is how the criminal deterrent will apply, is at best flimsy and at worst nonexistent.
      6.30 pm
      I do not believe that, on hunch and guesswork, and in the absence of any evidence which could be remotely regarded as conclusive, we should risk all the catastrophes that would follow from a reintroduction of capital punishment. The catastrophes would range from the hanging of the wrong man to the brutalisation of society.
      If Members are sceptical about what I call the brutalisation of society, let them consider the way in which some newspapers have prepared us for today's debate. Three weeks ago the News of the World had Ruth Ellis's daughter supporting capital punishment with a photograph in which she was dressed and made up to look like her executed mother. In the same issue of the News of the World a superannuated hangman described, with the aid of drawings, how sentence was carried out. A return to such a system would inevitably have an effect on the
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      nature and the quality of society. The feeling would be spread abroad that in some circumstances the taking of life was justifiable no matter what form of judicial execution was introduced.
      When the House last debated this subject there were re those who tried to blur the ghastly nature of execution by insisting that they were discussing alternatives to hanging. The Home Secretary urged them to read the two pages of the Gower report which dealt with alternative methods. I took the right hon. Gentleman's advice. Having done so, I share his conclusion that overwhelmingly the supposition must be that if we are to return to capital punishment we shall return to hanging. The alternatives are no less macabre than the drop and the rope. We cannot reintroduce the death penalty without having a desperate and damaging effect on the entire nature of society.
      The society which the News of the World described is not the society that I want to see. It is not a society for which I am prepared to vote. No doubt I shall be told that many of my constituents have a different view and that a majority of the population wants the death penalty restored. That may be because capital punishment has been falsely presented to them as a cure for all the ills of an increasingly violent society. However, an increasingly violent society cannot be cured by a return to draconian punishment. It must be improved by other methods and techniques.
      Many hon. Members today and during other debates in the past have urged the likes of me to play the proper parliamentary role and to make our own judgments according to our own consciences. I believe that there is at least a possibility that a majority of those who voted for me believe that capital punishment should be restored. I think that they have no doubt where my instincts, convictions and beliefs lie. They are aware of all the categories of parliamentary independence, such as Europe, NATO, incomes policy, discrimination in favour of ethnic minorities and opposition to capital punishment.
      It is our parliamentary and democratic duty to leave our constituents in no doubt about our attitudes on these great issues. However, in the end, it is our duty to decide what seems right for the nation and right in terms of our individual consciences. In judging the debate and the proposal against those two criteria, I propose to vote against all the new clauses.
      Several Hon. Members rose——
      Mr. Speaker: Order. Now that the Front Bench spokesmen have made their contributions, I appeal to hon. Members who are called to participate in the debate to bear in mind that many right hon. and hon. Members want to speak. I hope that that fact will be borne in mind.
      Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Like the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), I shall vote according to my conscience, which tells me that it would help generally to deter crimes of murder if the death penalty were again to be available to the courts.
      When I moved the motion on which the House debated this issue some years ago, I gave two undertakings first, that I would not return to the issue unless circumstances changed in such a way as to justify a further debate; secondly, that in no circumstances could I support a referendum. I wish to comment on both those undertakings.

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      First, I do not believe that circumstances have changed sufficiently to justify the House again taking its time to debate the issue. The Police Federation, with which I have a connection, took the decision to advertise the matter in the press during my absence in El Salvador as a member of a Committee of the House. If I had been present at the time, I should have advised the federation not to take that action for two reasons: first, because it might have been thought, quite wrongly, to be a criticism of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary—that was not intended by the federation, but I knew that it could have been so construed by some—and, secondly, because I believe that the Criminal Justice Bill is not an appropriate vehicle for a debate on capital punishment. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has already said that if the new clause is accepted the death penalty cannot be reintroduced under this Bill in Scotland. This is one of the reasons why the debate has not been properly timed.
      As to a referendum, on the evidence that is available suggests that it would support the view that I hold. But I would be appalled at the thought that any hon. Member should be subjected to the pressure, even the blackmail, of a public opinion poll, in order to force him to vote against his conscience and judgment. Therefore, I could not and would not support a motion to hold a referendum.
      None of us can have any certainty on this difficult issue. The hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. Lewis) spoke with great sincerity. But unlike him I do not take the opinions and judgments of the police only occasionally. I deal with the police all the time. I listen to them week by week as they bring to me precise examples of their operational problems. And I take their judgments seriously, as I hope the House will. I do not ask the House to accept the police views as gospel. But I ask it to take into consideration the views of the men and women whom we ask to risk their lives in dealing with armed criminal gunmen and terrorists. And it is the virtually unanimous view of the police service—I accept that there are some variations—that the capital sentence could assist them in the operation of their work and would have a material effect in protecting the public.
      Mr. Tom Benyon rose——
      Mr. Griffiths: First, the death sentence could assist the police in dealing with armed criminal gunmen. During the period before abolition it was the practice of the older members of criminal gangs in London to frisk the younger members of those gangs to ensure that they were not carrying firearms. They did that because, in the criminal vernacular of the time, "You kill a cop and we are all topped". There is no doubt that the existence of the death sentence at that time led many professional criminals not to carry firearms when they committed crime. By contrast, since abolition—I claim not a causal connection but a factual one—there has been a substantial increase in the carrying of firearms by criminals.
      I do not believe for one moment that the existence of the death penalty would lead all those who now carry guns to desist from doing so. Nevertheless, the man who cleans and loads a gun, puts it is his pocket and takes it with him when he is about to commit a robbery does so by calculation. It is not an emotional or a passionate decision. It is a calculated decision that if he takes a gun and is prepared to use it he has a greater chance of succeeding
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      in his crime. He may be able to eliminate the witness. He may be able to shoot the police officer who happens upon him while the crime is being committed. But, in any event, he has calculated the odds. He has made a cold, determinate decision that, if he carries a gun and is prepared to use it, there is a greater likelihood of his getting away with the offence. To the extent that such a man is a calculator, I ask only that he should also be required to take into account the possibility that he, too, might suffer the same penalty that he inflicts, without due process of law, on others. That is the first case in which I believe that there could be a deterrent effect on the calculating criminal gunman.
      The second case is in relation to terrorism. I have a connection with the RUC. I talk to its members frequently. I agree wholeheartedly with what the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said. There is no evidence to suggest that the existence of the death penalty would deter the ideological or political fanatic. It would not. On the contrary, it could lead to the very kind of martyrdom that some fanatics may seek. Nor do I believe that the existence of the death penalty would necessarily deter other groups of fanatics such as we see in Northern Ireland and other parts of the world. These are the younger men who are led by such motives as theatricality, braggadocio, exhibitionism, follow-my-leader-itis and other such half-baked notions. Such people would not be deterred. There is, however, one group of terrorists who could and, I believe, would be deterred. They are very few. They are the professional guns for hire—the so-called jackals. I am glad that there are not many of them. But there is evidence available to the security services that a small number of international professional assassins are available for hire to carry out brutal murders.
      Such men are distinguished by one characteristic—they calculate the odds. Above all else they wish to live to collect their pay. When they accept an assignment they calculate the risks, the rewards and the chances of getting away with it. The advice that is available to me is that when a professional assassin knows that the death penalty exists and that he too, if caught, would be sentenced, one thing is certain—his price goes up. The cash nexus is an important aspect of terrorist activity. That is why there are so many armed robberies in connection with terrorism. The existence of the death sentence could have some deterrent effect on some—not all—of the armed professional criminal gunmen who work in connection with terrorism.
      Mr. Maxton: How many?
      Mr. Griffiths: I do not know. But is the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) prepared to admit that he will allow any such man to commit brutal murder if there is a reasonable chance of his being prevented from doing so by Parliament passing the proposals?
      Mr. Bidwell: That argument is contradictory, as the Police Federation also argues that, in normal circumstances, it does not want its members to carry guns.
      Mr. Griffiths: The heart of the Police Federation's case is this. Unless steps are taken to provide the police with greater protection, a policeman who is confronted in a dark alley with an armed criminal who has already committed a murder will hesitate before going down that

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      alley to tackle the offender. Instead, he will send for weapons. That is a fact. Before abolition, many police officers, by remarkable acts of personal gallantry, tackled armed criminal gunmen. They do so now only rarely. They now send for guns and use them. The federation's fear, which I share, is that if better protection is not provided for the police service, there must be a risk that the police will shoot first and ask questions afterwards. That is now the practice in the United States. I do not wish to see it in the police service of this country.
      6.45 pm
      It would be wholly wrong for the House to attempt to categorise murder, either by the victim or by the method. I none the less support the proposition of my hon. and learned Friend the Member of South Fylde (Mr. Gardner) who wishes the death sentence to be available to the courts. I understand the difficulties that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has explained. I hope that if the House were minded to pass any of the new clauses, it would be clearly understood that in no circumstances would the death penalty apply in cases of domestic or matrimonial murder. That is about 70, 80 or even 90 per cent. of all murders. Moreover, it could not and should not apply in cases of diminished responsibility. It would nearly always be wrong, too, if it were applied to first-time offences.
      What I am asking the House to consider is simply whether the State should for ever abandon the same sentence that is so frequently carried out by armed criminal gunmen and increasingly by assassins, and so create a circumstance in which the death penalty is applied by criminals but is never to be applied by the State in protection of the innocent. It is a modest request. I put it no higher, because, unlike many hon. Members, I have no certitude in this matter. I am not certain that the death sentence would necessarily deter. I am not certain either, that it would not. I listen to the advice of those with more experience than, with respect, most hon. Members. I listen to the police. They are at the sharp end. Their view is virtually unanimous. I commend it to the House.
      Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Arising out of the speech of the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths), I should say that my only knowledge of a professional international assassin is Carlos. There is evidence that Carlos has committed offences in countries both where the death penalty is available and where it is not. Indeed, he has committed offences in countries, such as Israel, where it is possible to be killed on the street. In those circumstances, I do not believe that the death penalty is a deterrent to that kind of international criminal any more than it is to any other kind of potential murderer.
      The most significant aspect of the debate is that the Benches on both sides of the House are relatively empty. I have been involved in debates on this issue three or four times since I came to the House. I recollect there being more tension in the House about the issue then than on this occasion. Perhaps within the House—I stress that—the argument about the death penalty has been proved. We face an overwhelming weight of opinion against the reintroduction of the death penalty which is based upon our appreciation of the arguments.
      That is not, however, the picture outside. It is not the view of the electorate as a whole. There is a divorce between those of us who have argued the case many times in the House and those outside who from time to time
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      approach the concept of dealing with increasing crime by saying that the only solution is the reintroduction of the death penalty. The House, therefore, has a duty to make plain to the electorate as a whole the arguments that: we have found convincing over the years. It is not enough simply to answer letters that we receive in response to the Police Federation's call or to answer questions from the hall during a general election. There must now be a concerted attempt to explain to the electorate why we take the view that we do.
      I agree with the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath). Although I do not support a referendum, I am convinced that, if a referendum were held, if the issue were debated fully and all the arguments were presented to the electorate on television, after a reasonable public debate the great majority of our constituents would agree that there is nothing to be gained by reintroducing capital punishment. It is a measure of our failure to put that across that the divorce still persists. If the House rejects the call for the reintroduction of the death penalty today, the Government should make it plain to people why that has happened.
      The basic reason is that one cannot persuade Members of Parliament, or indeed any reasonable person, that to take life is justified, save in the most exceptional circumstances—namely, that it would prevent the tatting of further lives. I do not question the morality of those who find themselves in a different position, but I cannot accept the view that one should be able to take life because somebody else has done so. That seems to me to be the denial of any kind of morality. I would be prepared to back the State's right to take life if it would save life in the future.
      Therefore, for me, the question of deterrence has always been crucial and the figures, boring though some hon. Members may find them, have always been crucial. If I disagree at all with my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), it is in the suggestion that the figures prove nothing. Indeed, he went on to show conclusively that they in fact prove that the death penalty does not make any difference to the incidence of murder. When I last spoke in a debate on this matter I went into the figures in some detail, causing tedium for hon. Members and getting myself into trouble for speaking at great length. I suggest that the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds should read the report of my speech on the last occasion. If he analyses the figures, I think that he will reach the conclusion that I have reached.
      If one compares the position before the abolition of capital punishment, during the 10 years in which it was available for some but not other types of murder and in the period since then, the evidence is fairly clear. There has been a rise in the crime of murder, but it is certainly not so great as the rise in violence generally, and it is consistent with the rise that took place before the abolition of capital punishment.
      Mr. Rees-Davie rose——
      Mr. Lyon: I shall not give way. I must continue my speech.
      The picture is clear. From 1958, when there were 261 homicides, to 1966, when there were 364, the increase was 30 per cent. The hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) quoted the figure for 1957, which was 321, so

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      there was only a slight increase between that time and 1966. In 1967, however, the figure was 414 and in 1977 it was 484. That was exactly a decade later. The figure had increased only marginally—about 10 per cent.—in both cases. Between 1967 and 1980, however, the increase was about 50 per cent.
      Although the rate of increase in the past 15 years has been greater than in the previous 10 years, there had been a gradual increase in the crime of murder previously. Moreover, in the same period, crimes of violence increased by about 170 per cent. We have moved into a social climate in which crimes of violence are more acceptable than previously. Inevitably, therefore, one would expect an increase in the crime of murder. Most significant of all, however, 70 per cent. of homicides are still committed within the family circle. Only in a very few cases—about 160 last year—was the assailant a stranger to the person who was killed.
      Mr. Grieve rose——
      Mr. Lyon: I am trying not to give way, as I have only three minutes in which to make a number of points.
      I believe that the most crucial issue in the whole debate is that a number of people have been hanged who manifestly were innocent and that, since the abolition of the death penalty, people have been convicted and subsequently released who could not have been released if the death penalty had been available.
      I cite one case from my own experience as a Minister—the Confait case, in which three youths in Lewisham were convicted of murder. I was asked to intervene because the Court of Appeal had rejected their appeals. The Home Secretary intervenes only when there is new evidence that was not available to the court, because to overrule the court would seem an excessive use of the prerogative. I breached that principle on that occasion—the one and only such case known to me in English legal history—and sent the case back to the Court of Appeal. I was persuaded that the case had not been properly put to the jury, but I could find no new evidence that would allow me to exercise the power of the prerogative in the normal way.
      The Court of Appeal quashed the conviction. As a result, Mr. Justice Fisher, although he was no longer a judge, was asked to conduct an enquiry. Judges being the kind of animal that they are, it is difficult for them to express the view that there has been a mistake. Nevertheless, he took the view that the men had been wrongly convicted of murder, but that they were present at the scene and were probably guilty of arson.
      A year or so later, after the conviction had been quashed, two men—one of whom confessed—said that they had been present, had started the fire and had killed the man. They could not be prosecuted because the only evidence was that of each man saying that the other had done it. There was no corroboration, so they could not be prosecuted for the offence, but it was manifestly clear to the Home Secretary that they had done it.
      Therefore, the three boys never committed the arson and never committed the offence, but one of them was over the age of 18. His mental attitude was such that he may not have been sentenced to death even in the old days, but he might, and that I take with great seriousness.
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      There is the point about categorisation. When we categorised offences in 1956, the first case involved a man who was charged with causing murder in the course of theft. He had broken into a warehouse and been disturbed by the watchman. As he tried to get away, in a panic he pushed the watchman out of the way. The watchman fell downstairs and was killed. The accused man was convicted of murder in the course of larceny and was hanged. It was manifestly clear that the House never intended that such a case should result in that sentence. It had to be because the Home Secretary thought his discretion had been removed by the decision of the House. The trouble with categorisation is that the Home Secretary will be faced with that severe difficulty. He would not be able to exercise discretion because the House had previously stated that he had no discretion. I give way to those who want to put forward a different point of view.
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      Mr. John McQuade: When we talk of terrorist murders, we are not talking about killings that take place in the heat of passion, jealousy or lust. Nor are we talking about a killing that is carried out by a man suffering from such a degree of mental instability that no civilised society would ask him to forfeit his life. No, we are dealing with a gang of men who are fully aware of what they are doing. They coldly and calculatedly plan in every dastardly detail to rob another human being of existence. Unlike those acting in the throes of passion, they can foresee the possible consequences of their actions and be deterred by them.
      Again, we hear it said: Are we not inviting a situation in which terrorists who hold hostages will threaten to kill them if an execution takes place? I am ashamed to say that that is an argument in common currency. Let the House think of its significance. It means two things. First, it means that we as a community are confessing our inability to enforce our own laws, but not because they are unacceptable to people, which would be understandable. Secondly, it means that we are prepared to be blackmailed by the possible threat of a bunch of murdering thugs. Are we prepared to confess our inability to govern to that extent?
      We in Northern Ireland know that hon. Members in Westminster cannot govern because they cannot provide personal security for our citizens. I want them to understand that the necessary implication of the argument with which I am dealing is that they now admit it. Then there is the "martyr" theory. I do not propose to waste words upon it or on those so bereft of a sense of reality as to espouse it. The House can take it from me that I know my country. The hanged man would be a martyr to nobody except a few of his fellow thugs. I will exchange that any day for the lives of thousands of innocent men, women and children. Let us hear no more of that rubbish.
      If it is said that hanging is ghoulish, then shoot the murderers, or use whatever ingenuity people still possess to devise a more acceptable form of capital punishment. To us, killing is a daily occurrence. We do not know where it will strike next but we know that it will. We are fightened for our lives, both personal and commercial. Hon. Members can afford to see terrorism as something that, in a greatly diluted form, irritates them once in a while.
      It is our duty to protect our people and the only way to do that is for capital crime to receive capital punishment.

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      My home has been attacked twice by the gunmen of the IRA. As a result, whenever I go from home I have to have a police escort. I cannot take a walk down the street without the detectives beside me. That is how we live in Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom.
      Someone spoke about 1 July 1916 on the Somme battlefield. On that day the 36th Ulster Division was practically wiped out. That is what we gave to the mother country. We ask nothing more than that the law be upheld in Northern Ireland. I say on behalf of the law-abiding people of Northern Ireland, who are in the majority, let the security forces do whatever they want to do. Do not let us tie their hands behind their backs, as we always have. In 1939 when the BEF went to France the soldiers then asked:
      "Why do they not bring the House of Commons out here, and then they would do something about it?"
      I ask the House to look after the law-abiding people of Northern Ireland, who are as British as anyone sitting in the House. That is all I ask.
      Mr. Charles Irving: I unashamedly admit to being a life-long abolitionist. I have spoken each time such matters as we are discussing now have been raised in the House. However, I share with other speakers the grave anxiety and distress that one is bound to feel for those who suffer from violent offences in our community. Whatever one's wishes may be, or whatever one's personal views are, they cannot detract from the fact that it was an unfortunate timing of events that Metropolitan Police figures depicting violence as against homicide were released just before the campaign by the Police Federation. In my view, they left many people totally confused about what we are talking about in a debate on the restoration of capital punishment.
      I find the way the series of new clauses have been produced particularly offensive. It is a pin-pricking effort to take out a few choice morsels for which capital punishment or the rope can be introduced. One might well say that it could in some ways be seen as a charter for dispensing with mothers-in-law. How can one discriminate? A murder is a murder and selectivity is as nauseating to me as the ritual of hanging. I find this Dutch auction offensive and I cannot subscribe to the proposals. One must remember that only a few weeks ago a lorry driver in Luton was released after serving eight years of a life sentence for a murder which he was found not to have committed.
      I have received many letters about the subject from my constituents. I received one letter from a lady in the following terms:
      "My dear Charles, I know you and you know me as a compassionate person and we both feel that hanging is barbaric, but I know that you are not in favour of the restoration of capital punishment. But could we not do something slightly less offensive, like gassing or shooting or electrocution"——
      Mr. Tom Benyon: Or mincing.
      Mr. Irving: Or mincing, if one wishes that. I thought to myself, "This is a strange lady." She said:
      "After all could we not introduce for attempted rape or rape immediate castration? I think that we should look at these sort of things in a kindly way."
      I could not think of an answer to the lady except to write to her in my usual generous way when I deal with those who are slightly demented. I could not simply say: "My dear, I was grateful for your letter. If it is one of compassion thank God that you do not write to me when you are getting tough."
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      If capital punishment were introduced generally for murder, there would be a wide use of the power of reprieve, but any process of reprieve under which execution became the exception rather than the rule would impose intolerable pressure upon the Home Secretary or any other authority, such as a panel of judges appointed for that task.
      The Homicide Act 1957 took into account the selectivity about which we have heard so much in the new clauses. Poisoning and strangling were surely not notably morally better than shooting when one carried the death penalty and the other did not. The murder of a policeman or prison officer was capital, while the murder of other workers, such as security guards, bankers and Post Office workers—who are also at risk because of their employment—was not. Murder in the course of theft was capital but other murders for gain were not. The problem of distinguishing between capital and non-capital murder would inevitably prove just as intractable and indefensible if another attempt were made to reintroduce capital punishment on a selective basis.
      I shall not refer to the figures that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary put forward so clearly, but l believe that the figures for murders of policemen and prison officers before and after the abolition of capital punishment do not necessarily suggest that capital punishment has a unique deterrent effect.
      I wish to say a little about terrorism. I share with the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. McQuade)—who has now left the Chamber—a grave emotional anxiety about terrorism. Of course there is a strong feeling that the death penalty should apply at least to such murders. Terrorists are even less likely to be deterred than other murderers. They are fanatics who, however perverted in their thinking and feeling, see themselves as fighting for a cause higher than themselves and who are living in a state of dangerous exaltation in which they hold even their own lives at a relatively low price.
      Mr. Rees-Davies rose——
      7.15 pm
      Mr. Irving: It is so nice to see my hon. and learned Friend but I make it a policy never to allow interventions during my speeches. I would love to have a chat with him another time.
      There are two further important reasons for arguing against the introduction of capital punishment for terrorist murders. In the stages leading up to an execution, terrorists would have a strong motive for taking hostages and threatening to kill them and to intimidate all those taking part in the trial, especially jurors. One must predict the possibility that executions would be followed by serious reprisals. Informers would be less prepared to help the police. As capital punishment would not apply to those under 18, there would be real dangers that the death penalty would reinforce the trend for terrorist organisations to recruit increasingly younger members. It would create a new generation of martyrs and there is considerable evidence that martyrs stimulate recruitment to fanatical terrorist organisations.
      It is understandable that public opinion, deeply disturbed by killing and violence, should naturally and instinctively seek a clear and decisive remedy and feel that execution or the threat of execution must be a unique deterrent. But there is no evidence in this or in any other

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      country that that is so. The more closely that one becomes involved with the responsibility for violent crime, the greater are seen to be not only the moral but the practical objections to the reintroduction of capital punishment.
      Mr. Maxton: I am in a little difficulty because the Home Secretary said that if the new clauses are passed they will not apply to Scotland. I am a Scottish Member. Some Conservative Members who are waiting to speak may say that perhaps I should not speak at all. However, the Home Secretary made it clear that if the new clauses are passed there must be separate legislation and we in Scotland could not dodge the issue. I think that makes the perfect case for devolution for Scotland. This matter could be covered by a devolved Assembly in Scotland and Scottish Members would then have a right to vote.
      However, even if the whole House votes for the return of capital punishment, I guarantee that the majority of Scottish Members will vote against it. As we have a separate legal system, that should have some bearing on what happens in Scotland.
      The first time that I came to this building I sat in the Strangers' Gallery and heard the late Sydney Silverman introduce one of his many Bills to abolish capital punishment. On that occasion the man who had been Home Secretary in the Labour Government between 1945 and 1951, the late Chuter Ede, admitted that as Home Secretary he had made a mistake in not allowing the reprieve of, I think, Timothy Evans. He admitted that it lay heavily on his conscience because, as Home Secretary, he had allowed the execution of one man whom he later considered to be innocent. All who speak -and vote on this issue should remember that. If we allow one innocent person to be executed, morally we are committing exactly the same or, in some ways, a worse crime than the person who committed the murder. Certainly it is the same crime morally.
      The second reason why I want to speak on this matter is that, during the 1979 general election, even though capital punishment was not one of the issues which I would have considered to be important, it was forced upon me by the public stance taken on it by my Conservative opponent who is now the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor). We debated the issue publicly. It was the only issue that the hon. Gentleman would debate publicly with me. He felt that he had public opinion on his side. He felt that he was on a winner. Of course, as the electorate in Cathcart showed, he was not on a winner. At a time when his party was doing well throughout Britain, he was the only Conservative to lose his seat to a member of the Labour Party.
      I shall not make a great claim that that showed that public opinion in my constituency is against the return of capital punishment, but the hon. Member for Southend, East cannot claim that it is an issue on which people never vote or about which they are not concerned. On that occasion the public knew where both of us stood in regard to capital punishment.
      I am sorry that the hon. Member for Southend, East is not in the Chamber. He said that the problem of the razor gangs in Glasgow in the 1930s and 1940s was solved by harsh measures taken by the police. It must be pointed out that when those razor gangs were operating and this great wave of violence was sweeping through parts of Glasgow,
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      both capital and corporal punishment were in existence. Capital punishment was much more widely used then than later. Yet neither capital punishment nor corporal punishment deterred the razor gangs from using violence on the streets. What deterred them eventually was the certainty of capture. There was a massive police operation to make sure that they were caught and given some form of punishment. The certainty of capture and conviction, not the nature of the punishment, is the major deterrent to any criminal. That has to be taken into account.
      The Scottish figures were mentioned by the hon. Member for Southend, East. Those figures do not prove anything one way or another. We all accept that statistics cannot be used in this argument, although some Conservative Members have been trying to do so. In Scotland in 1948 there were eight murders; in 1969 there were 26; in 1977 there were 61. Some hon. Members refer to the enormous increase that has taken place. Of course, if they took 1946 instead of 1948 as the base line, they would find that there were 22 murders in that year. What do the figures prove? Capital punishment existed in both those years. There was a massive decline and then the number of murders went up.
      There was a 140 per cent. increase from 26 murders in 1969 to 61 in 1977. If we take the 1977 figure of 61 and then the 1979 figure of 38, there is a completely different picture with a massive decline in the number of murders. Strathclyde regional police report this year that, despite a massive increase in other crime, particularly crime against property, the murder rate at 29 is the lowest since the region was formed in 1974. Again, there is a decline which proves nothing. Statistics cannot be used to show that capital punishment has a deterrent effect.
      Why did the murder rate go down between 1977 and 1979? I cannot answer that question, particularly when other crime has increased. The point is that statistics cannot prove the case for hon. Members who wish to bring back capital punishment. It is those hon. Members who have to prove the case. Hon. Members who are defending the present position do not have to produce figures.
      Probably the best figures to examine come from the United States. In the 1930s capital punishment existed in one State while in the next State it had been abolished, although those States had similar social backgrounds and make-up. There is no evidence that the murder rate was higher in one State than in the other. If anything, the murder rate in States which had abolished capital punishment was marginally lower than in those which had not. Again, it does not prove anything. It is up to hon. Members who argue for the return of capital punishment to give clear statistical proof, if they have it, that it acts as a deterrent. I know of no evidence that it does.
      In regard to the drawing of lines, the case has been put well by the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Irving), by the Home Secretary and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley). It would be impossible to differentiate between different types of murder. A policeman chasing someone who is armed with a gun may be joined by a member of the public. If the criminal turns and shoots the policeman, it is proposed that he should be executed, but if he shoots the member of the public he should not. There are many variations and differences.
      Prison officers have also been referred to. In Scotland we had immense problems with violence in prisons. No prison officers were killed, but they were being attacked.

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      I give credit to the Conservative Government of the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) for solving the problem. The Home Office might take note of what they did. They set up a special unit in Barlinnie prison to deal with the violent prisoner in a manner different from the one in which he had been dealt with before. That has been a major success story. It has lowered violence in Scottish prisons and gone a long way to bringing many of those violent people back to a condition in which they could go out into society again. That should be our aim in dealing with criminals, not executing them.
      My right hon. Friend the Member for Sparkbrook rightly mentioned the 1916 uprising. Later examples could be used. When those people were taken out of the post office in Dublin by the British Army, the people of Dublin and of Ireland mocked them and laughed at them. They thought they were a bunch of extremists. One might say that their execution was almost the point when the problems of modern Ireland started, because they became martyrs.
      That trend has continued. Now, of course, they still make their own martyrs when we do not execute them. What was Bobby Sands doing? He was making himself a martyr. He is now a dead hero to the people who support him. Whether we like it or not, he is. I do not like that fact. No hon. Member likes that fact, but it is a fact. He is a dead hero. That is what would happen with terrorists. Those who support them would consider them to be heroes.
      7.30 pm
      The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) mentioned the Jackal. He has not read the book. The Jackal sought to execute President de Gaulle in a country that had the death penalty. As in so many other cases, the hon. Gentleman is marginally wrong.
      At the end of the day, the question comes down to morality, not statistics. It comes down to the opinions of hon. Members. Under all the new clauses that have been put down for debate, Paddy Meehan would have been executed. He committed a murder in the execution of a crime. When the hon. Member for Southend, East was the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart, he fought to have Paddy Meehan released from prison. If the new clauses to which he has appended his name had been in operation when Paddy Meehan was caught and convicted, he would have been fighting posthumously for Paddy Meehan. Yet Paddy Meehan was innocent. He has been released and is now seeking compensation from the State for the prison sentence that was imposed upon him.
      That is the morality that all hon. Members must consider when they vote tonight on whether to restore capital punishment. We cannot allow the execution of one innocent person. If we have the death penalty, we cannot guarantee that it will not happen.
      Mr. Grieve: With one observation of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) I am in entire agreement: that the issue which faces the House today is a moral issue. I regret that my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Irving) castigated those hon. Members who have tabled the new clauses. I respect the views that have been expressed by hon. Members and I respect the profound feelings that motivated most of those who have contributed to this debate.
      It is fairly well known that I am in disagreement with those who have spoken against the restoration of capital
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      punishment. However, I was impressed by the cogent speech of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. I would like to preface my short contribution to this debate by saying that I accept a great many of the points that he made.
      First, I accept that it is almost impossible to prove scientifically that the death penalty is a deterrent. We all make subjective judgments in this matter, based on our own experience. My experience is that of a barrister of 45 years' standing, who, although with a civil practice, has had a good deal of experience in the criminal courts and who has sat as a recorder, an assistant recorder or the like, for 26 or 27 years. In my experience, alas, I have mot a number of cold, calculating criminals. Therefore, I share the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) that there are those who calculate the risks. Before the abolition of the death penalty they did not normally go armed to their robberies. Now they do. They run the risk of killing in doing so. The death penalty is necessary to deter such men.
      I agree that generally speaking we cannot regard deterrence as proven. Moreover, I accept that a high percentage of homicides are committed in the family circle, or in narrow, limited circles, under the stress of great emotion. No death penalty will deter those who act under the stress of such emotions on such occasions. However, such homicides have largely been taken out of the category of murder by the provision in the law since 1957 that where responsibility is diminished, as it frequently is under the stress of great emotion, the crime is reduced to mansaughter. The death penalty would not apply in a large number of cases.
      With the death penalty there is the danger that an innocent man might be executed. That is a terrible and terrifying prospect. However, in a well-ordered, good system of criminal justice such a thing would be very exceptional. I must face the fact that it might on occasion be necessary to weigh that possibility against the need to defend society against the criminal and the wrongdoer.
      I have not always been a retentionist. In 1951 I went to the Canal zone to defend Tom Houghton, a corporal who was charged with murdering his captain. He was a boy of 18. He obviously acted under the stress of great emotion and he was hanged. I think that 10 years later he would not have been. Ten years later he would have been able to take advantage of the provision that would have reduced his crime to manslaughter for diminished responsibility. That gave me a revulsion. I can understand the revulsion felt by many of my hon. Friends and Labour Members when they consider the individual cases where there has been a miscarriage of justice, where execution has occurred when it should not have done.
      Having said that, I believe that the death penalty has a place in an ordered, reasonable, civilised society for the protection of that society. That was why I intervened in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sid cup (Mr. Heath). I do not hesitate to make the point again. Do we not show our respect for human life by having the death penalty? I do not believe that our society now respects human life as it should. In the days when we had the death penalty we did respect human life. The existence of the death penalty showed that we respected human life.
      Mr. George Foulkes: Rubbish.
      Mr. Grieve: Although not every member of the public would put this feeling in the words in which I am putting

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      it now, I believe that it is a truth that the public perceives and that I am echoing a feeling that exists in the hearts and minds of many of our fellow citizens.
      Those who take the view in debates on capital punishment that I have just expressed have driven themselves into a corner by concentrating entirely on the question of deterrence or the question of reform. In a system of human justice deterrence is not the only element, nor is reform, although they are important elements. Retribution has its part. We would be blind and foolish to shut our minds to that fact. After all, we are brought up to believe that retribution has a part in divine justice. Our fathers, grandfathers and forefathers would not have hesitated to say that it has a part in human justice as well, and that to a large extent the punishment must fit the crime. Nowadays that is very much mitigated, and rightly and mercifully so, but it cannot be excluded as an element in human justice. Those who believe that know that the death penalty marks our respect for the lives of our fellow citizens. We should say to a person who commits wicked, premeditated murder—not an emotional murder or the type of homicide that is now regarded as manslaughter—that as he has wickedly taken the life of one of his fellow citizens he is at least in danger of forfeiting his own.
      It would be wrong to expunge from our considerations that fundamental concept. It is not a concept of vengeance or revenge. Prior to this century no moral philosopher would have said that retribution as an element of justice was revenge. On the contrary, it plays its part in providing an ordered and civilised society in which people do not seek to revenge themselves.
      Therefore, in principle, I support the new clauses. As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said, they will not carry the day. However, if the House believes that there is room for the restoration of the death penalty, the matter will have to be considered in great depth and detail and provisions will have to be laid before the House. I accept what my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said about the difficulty of formulating a code. Under the 1957 Act there were obviously appalling anomalies. It was shocking that Ruth Ellis should have been hanged because, under the stress of great emotion, she shot her lover. Then someone who used slow poisoning to kill would not have been hanged.
      We must reconsider the matter. Does it defy the ability of this great Parliament of the United Kingdom to formulate a statutory means of protecting our society when we believe that the death penalty is a necessary reserve measure? I believe that that is not beyond our wit and capacity and, therefore, I shall support—with one exception—the new clauses. I shall not go into the question of the murder of police or prison officers. However, that is one of the matters for which the death penalty should be held in reserve.
      I have been greatly influenced by the argument that there should not be a particular category for terrorist murders. The terrorist murderer is likely to be made a martyr and it may well be better not to have such a separate category. Therefore, I shall abstain in any Division on that new clause. However, a civilised society needs the death penalty for the reasons that I have given. Therefore, as a matter of principle, I shall support most of the new clauses.
      7.45 pm
      Mr. David Stoddart: People are for or against the death penalty on many grounds. I am against the death penalty on many grounds. One of those grounds is that of conscience. Many hon. Members feel that the taking of human life is completely and utterly wrong. I am not one of those, but I have a conscience about the State taking life. There is all the grisly apparatus of the scaffold, of the man or woman being dragged—docilely or perhaps screaming—to his or her death after weeks, perhaps months, of waiting to be summarily executed by the State. That causes great offence to many people and it has caused me offence for a long time. That is why I shall not support any of the new clauses.
      Many hon. Members have mentioned the practicalities of the matter. The speeches have clearly shown that there is no evidence that the restoration of the death penalty will act as a deterrent to murder. Those who wish to restore the death penalty must prove their case. They have not done so for a long time and they have not done so tonight. Often, the existence of the death penalty may well be an encouragement to murder. I am talking not about terrorist murderers, but about poor little people in our society who will never, in their lives, be noticed. They are mentally deranged and think that public attention can be gained only by committing a murder that will put them on the national, and perhaps international, stage in a trial at which the death penalty is the ultimate sanction, with all the drama that that involves. Those of us who are old enough to remember the death penalty know how true that is. Until the last moment petitions, signed by hundreds of thousands of people, are sent to the Home Secretary. People may well commit murders to gain public attention. Therefore, the very existence of the death penalty can encourage murder.
      Anyone who commits a murder should be punished and kept away from society so that he cannot commit another murder. We all know that until the abolition of the death penalty juries were increasingly reluctant to convict, because the death penalty lay ahead. They knew that, once they had convicted the defendant and the death penalty had been carried out, there could be no redress. Since then, things have probably moved a stage further. Today, juries would be even more reluctant to convict than they were before 1957. That is another reason why we should be very careful about returning to the death penalty. A murderer who would otherwise be convicted and put away might well be released because of the reluctance of a jury to convict if there were any doubt about his guilt.
      People such as me are accused of being on the side of the murderer because we do not believe that the death penalty should be restored. It is said that we have no sympathy for the victim. That is a calumny and is completely wrong. From the beginning to the end, my sympathy is with the victim and those affected by the crime. With the death penalty, there is the danger that, as the date of execution approaches, all the sympathy and attention will go to the person who is to be strung up at 8 o'clock one fine or nasty morning. People will stand outside the prison gate on an all-night vigil. At 8 o'clock in the morning the sonorous tones of the BBC announcer will be heard saying that one second or one minute ago so-and-so was hanged. Therefore, with the death penalty on the statute book, sympathy may well float to the murderer and leave the victim.

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      Another matter that has been mentioned several times is the possibility of the hanging of innocent people. We are told that we have no right to ignore public opinion. The general view is that public opinion at this time is for the return of the death penalty. I remember a time when it was different. I remember the horror and revulsion felt by the nation, myself included, when it was realised that Timothy Evans had been hanged for murders committed by Christie. If a public opinion poll had been taken at that time—I believe that it was—public opinion would have been found to be quite the reverse. Public opinion, correctly, was on the side of the abolition of the death penalty. The public realised that the death peanlty meant that they themselves had committed a crime—judicial murder. It is all of us who do it. The public could not turn back the clock. At that time, public opinion was as much against the death penalty as it now appears to be for the death penalty.
      Many people do not remember the debates and what went on when we had the death penalty. I fear that there are some people who either have forgotten or never knew about the problem. They are even writing to Members of Parliament—certainly they are writing to me—and going so far as to say that it is worth hanging a few innocent people for the general good. That is a dreadful thought. It is a dreadful view for anyone to hold. This issue has been whipped up so by certain elements that people have forgotten their very morality. That is unfortunate.
      The issue has become mixed up with other forms of crime. I am sure that other right hon. and hon. Members have received letters similar to the letters that I have had. Not only do the writers advocate capital punishment for murder, but they want to string up the vandals. This campaign has unleashed an unthinking attitude. It is unfortunate that responsible organisations felt it right to whip up such a campaign. In my view, there are no additional reasons and no additional evidence, other than those that have always been available, for the return of the death penalty.
      I want to say a few words about the new clauses. I am sorry that they have been put on the Order Paper. They do not reflect well on Parliament and on those in Parliament. Unlike the hon. and learned Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve), I believe that the new clauses are absurd. They distinguish between one human life and another. There is no distinction. Murder is murder, whether the victim is a policeman, a warder, a bank clerk defending the bank's money or an employee defending his company's property. Let us not forget that. A policeman or a prison officer is no different from a bank clerk or a citizen who goes to help a policeman and is murdered instead of the policeman. In my view, therefore, that new clause is bad and should not have been tabled. I sincerely hope that it will be thrown out hook, line and sinker.
      Another new clause deals with murder by firearms or explosives. That is an invitation to the strangler. If we accepted this new clause, the Yorkshire Ripper would still have got away with it, because he had the good sense not to use a gun. He used a knife instead. If it were a case of shooting a person, a crossbow could be used, but not a 22 rifle.
      It is absurd to suggest that there should be a penalty for murder by firearm or explosive different from murder by strangling, stabbing, bow and arrow, drowning, poisoning, or anything else. In my view, the new clauses deserve to be thrown out, and thrown out decisively. I
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      make my position clear now as I have done throughout. My constituents are well aware, and have been since 1969 when I first stood for Swindon, of my total opposition to capital punishment. That remains my position on the grounds of conscience and intelligence, and I shall vote against all the new clauses tonight.
      Mr. Wheeler: This has been a good-natured debate, and a debate in which right hon. and hon. Members have expressed their views with honesty and sincerity. In 1979, the House did the same. It debated capital punishment and, by a large majority of 119, rejected its restoration. The arguments and the balance between them have not changed since then.
      This is the subject on which many people on both sides of the argument have particularly strong and absolute views, not to be swayed by continued argument. The debate includes arguments that certain types of killers deserve nothing better than death—a readily understandable sentiment, given the nature of some of their crimes. However, moral sentiments have to be distilled into workable laws.
      The Homicide Act 1957 tried to apply the death penalty selectively to killers in the same way as is being proposed today. That Act could work only at the cost of being morally repellent. It would be a great tragedy if a majority in the House allowed sentiment, however genuinely held and honestly expressed, to snare the Government into promoting unsound, inequitable and ineffectual legislation.
      One new clause simply calls for the availability of capital punishment for a person convicted of murder. It implies a growing problem,. with an increasing number of murders. That is not so. The actual number of murders is so small that annual variations prove very little. In 1979, for instance, 121 homicide cases were decided by the courts to be murder. In 1980, it had fallen to 101. The truth is that most murders are committed against victims who are closely associated with the killers, in circumstances of rage, quarrels or jealousy. In the period 1970–1980, the victim was acquainted with the suspect in over 70 per cent. of homicide cases, and in about half the cases the victim was a member of the suspect's family, such as a spouse or lover.
      Most killings are impulsive and casual and ire undertaken in the heat of the moment or occasioned through panic. There was no thought before the killing, so no potential deterrent would be effective in stopping the crime. A deterrent penalty is effective only for those who think before killing and who calculate that they will be caught. The clear-up rate for homicide is 97 per cent. That is the best form of deterrence.
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      The alternative approach is the reintroduction of the death penalty for selected types of killing. The new clauses refer to terrorism, murder by firearms or explosives, the murder of police and prison officers or murder in the course of robbery and burglary in which offensive weapons are involved. Those proposals are as illogical as they are unworkable. Is it being argued that murder by stabbing, hitting, kicking, strangling, burning or drowning or by poison or drugs is morally better than shooting? Why should the murder of a police or prison officer be capital while the murder of people in similar occupations, whether they be security guards, bank or post office workers, as well as many others who face special risks, not be capital?

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      It is proposed that murder in the course of robbery or burglary should be capital, but presumably murder in the course of rape or to conceal fraud would not be. There is no logic to such proposals. The courts would be plunged into a legal nightmare of trying to distinguish between capital and non-capital murder.
      Is there evidence that police or prison officers are at special risk? Although the prison population has more than doubled since 1945 and there are more high risk offenders in prison, only two members of the prison staff have been killed—one in 1948 and the other in 1965.
      The figures for the murder of police officers before and after the abolition of capital punishment do not suggest that capital punishment has any unique deterrent effect. The number of killings of police officers resulting in murder convictions has varied between nil and two every year since 1957, except for 1966 when the number was four, of whom three were killed in a single incident at Shepherds Bush.
      With regard to firearms, in 1980 the number of homicides by shooting, at 19, was the lowest number since records began to be kept in that form in 1967. No police officer was killed in England and Wales in 1976. The six officers killed since then were not involved in incidents involving firearms. Most so-called serious offences in which firearms are reported as being used relate to the use of an air weapon, which applies in over 5,000 cases out of 6,500. Most of those crimes are of vandalism.
      I now come to the question of the death penalty for terrorism. Of course, I can understand the feelings——
      Mr. Geraint Morgan: Will my hon. Friend give way?
      Mr. Wheeler: I hope that my hon. and learned Friend will forgive me for not giving way. Time is short.
      Of course I understand the feelings in the country and in the House that the death penalty should be available for terrorist murders. However, the House will have to define a terrorist murder. Would it be a murder committed by a known member of the Provisional IRA, the PLO or the Popular Front for the Liberation of Lambeth? Would it apply to a known terrorist engaged in an ordinary crime, such as bank robbery, during which a killing occurs? Given that political status for inmates of the Maze prison has long been withdrawn, would not a working definition of "terrorism" produce irresistible demands for its restoration on the grounds that the criteria of political crimes had at last been set out?
      Would the terrorist death penalty apply to Northern Ireland? No one has been hanged in the United Kingdom for hundreds of years other than upon the verdict of a jury. However, as the House knows, the degree of intimidation in Northern Ireland is such that it has not been possible to try such cases by jury. They are tried by the Diplock one-judge court. The defeat of terrorism cannot be achieved by the ordinary processes of the criminal law.
      I wonder whether any hon. Members have asked Members of the Northern Ireland judiciary whether they are prepared to act as juries in capital cases. If they are not, what is to happen?
      There are other important reasons for arguing against the introduction of capital punishment for terrorist murder. In the stages leading up to an execution terrorists would have a strong motive for taking hostages and would threaten to kill them and to intimidate all those taking part in the trial, particularly perhaps jurors.
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      There is the expectation that executions would be followed by reprisals. Informers would be less likely to be prepared to help the police. As capital punishment would not apply to those under 18, the death penalty would reinforce the trend for terrorist organisations to get those of 16 and 17, or even younger, to commit those crimes. Capital punishment would create martyrs.
      For all those reasons, many senior Army and police officers, as well as many in the judiciary, the criminal Bar and all political parties, believe that the reintroduction of capital punishment would hinder rather than help the fight against terrorism.
      I go further. From my experience as a former assistant prison governor who got to know the terrorist mind well, I would say that the fanatical terrorist, whom I encountered when I served in the prison service ten or more years ago, would regard the availability of capital punishment as a positive advance for the cause.
      If the House were to be so unwise as to succumb to emotion it would confer upon terrorists the greatest propaganda gift imaginable. Worse still, the reintroduction of capital punishment, as a whole or specifically, would be more likely to increase than to reduce the level of violence in our society, thus putting our police or citizens at greater risk. That is why I shall vote against all the new clauses.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: Like you Mr. Speaker, I was in the House during the Sydney Silverman days. I know that I must not refer to your activities then, but I can refer to mine.
      I supported Sydney Silverman during all the events that took place. Now I have changed my mind because of many reasons. One reason that has stuck in my mind, and which has been proved to me beyond question, is that there was a professional burglar in my constituency who consistently boasted of the fact that he had spent about one-third of his life in prison. He told me at the time of the Sydney Silverman Bill what would happen, and he was right. He said to me "I am a professional burglar. Before we go out on a job we plan it down to every detail. Before we go into the boozer to have a drink we say 'Don't forget, no shooters"—shooters being guns. He added "We did our job and didn't have shooters because at that time there was capital punishment. Our wives, girl friends and our mums said 'whatever you do, do not carry a shooter because if you are caught you might be topped.' If you do away with capital punishment they will all be carrying shooters."
      I voted in favour of Sydney Silverman's Bill, but hardly a day goes by when the papers do not report that a post office, a bank or Securicor has been raided by a gang of men all carrying sawn-off shotguns. They carry them because, as my criminal friend told me—if I can call him a friend—"We can get rid of the witnesses. We may get away with it. If we are caught the penalty is the same, so we must carry sawn-off shotguns, and we do."
      The position is worse than that. Hon. Members should read the papers. I read today that a poor Asian standing on the street doing no harm to anyone was murdered by a skinhead and that the judge has dealt severely with the man who was found guilty of the crime. I cannot mention his name, as there may be an appeal. That man received only a three-year prison sentence. With one year off for good conduct, he will serve only two years. The newspaper reports on the same page that a chap has been given 18 months for forgery.

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      There is a further point to be made. Mrs. Smith or Mrs. Brown might have a son or daughter who is deliberately murdered by a vicious, wicked crook, who has set out with the intention of robbing a post office, or an old lady on her own, and commit murder if need be. But the mother, wife or daughter has to pay towards the £185 a week cost, or whatever it is, of maintaining the murderer in prison. If she has lost her husband she will have to go out to work to earn the wherewithal to keep her family. The taxes she pays help to keep these vicious brutes in prison. Why should we keep them in relative luxury in prison? I know, I have seen the prisons.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) referred to the difference between certain types of murder. If a member of the public went to the aid of a policeman and the criminal had to shoot, what would he decide? With the death penalty for shooting a policeman but no death penalty for shooting a civilian I am sure that he would not shoot the policeman. The death penalty would make him think twice.
      Be that as it may, why should murderers be allowed to get away with it? There is no question but that there are certain streets in London where one cannot walk in daylight, let alone at night. People are running a thriving mugging business. But we are the mugs, because we allow them to get away with it. They have knives, which they intend to use. However, if they and their next of kin knew that if they were caught there was the prospect of the death penalty and being "topped" I am convinced that many of them would not carry knives. That, at least, gives the old ladies a bit of a chance. We are talking about the streets of London, not Timbuktu or parts of Africa. Old ladies of 70 and 80 are being mugged. They are not safe in the streets, nor in their own homes.
      The death penalty does not have to be used. It was not always used in the past. The Home Secretary can exercise his right to advise about the Royal Prerogative, as can the judge. The judge can ask the Home Secretary to have sympathy or exercise clemency. Judges must have the chance to pass the sentence of death. We read of judges saying that they are sorry that the most they can give is a penalty of five years in prison, or whatever the maximum might be, although they would like to be more severe. We must give the judge the opportunity to decide.
      Mr. Clinton Davis: Is my hon. Friend arguing that in many countries where the death penalty still prevails mugging and all the other things of which he has been speaking have been eliminated, or is it a better situation overall there than it is here?
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      Mr. Lewis: I am not suggesting anything of the sort. My hon. Friend is entitled to his views and opinion, which I respect and to which I shall listen. I am merely giving my views and opinion, even though I may be the only Labour Member to hold them.
      Criminals and some people who have been guilty of this offence have said that if there was a danger of them being "topped" they would not carry an offensive weapon. To that extent the old lady victim at least stands a better chance. I am sure that that old lady would rather not have her throat cut. I believe that the old lady in charge of a post office would feel happier if she knew that because of the possibility of the death penalty the robber would not carry a sawn-off shotgun. That is all I am saying, and I believe that to be a statement of fact.
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      We must now show some backbone and stand up to these people. If hon. Members are not in danger of being mugged themselves, they should ask people travelling on the tube whether they think that we are far too soft and lenient with such people and whether we ought to lake much more serious and definite action against them.
      We are all animals. We are the human animals on whom money is spent like water to give us a good education, home and all the rest. Yet some people behave worse than the non—human animal, such as my dog. I can, and do, teach my dog to sit and to behave. It does not bite. If it did, it would be liable to be put down. That is what should happen to some of these bestial brutes. They ought to be liable to be put down, and the sooner the better.
      Mr. Tom Benyon: This is a matter of great importance to our constituents, most of whom passionately hold views on one side of the argument or the other.
      I remind the House that my predecessor was assassinated in a cruel, cowardly and bloody crime within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster. Therefore, there is no other constituency in the land where feelings about the reintroduction of capital punishment run as high as they inevitably do in mine.
      Many of my colleagues must have a sense of déjà vu at this action replay of the debate that was held in 1979. However, it is right to express our views to our constituents and to take every opportunity we can to make our position entirely clear so that we can avoid any further speculation on their part as to what this House feels on these serious and important matters.
      This has been a healthy debate between people of entirely opposing views. It has been held without rancour and is in the best traditions of the House of Commons. This is the essence of the democracy and freedom which our country is fighting elsewhere to preserve.
      I should like to meet the arguments of my opponents, who proposed the new clauses, at their most potent. I shall first deal with the issue of revenge or retribution. I happen to believe that such matters should be left to God Almighty. They are not matters that should play any part in the deliberations of the courts or the judgments made in this House over how hon. Members should vote. I should also like to deal with what method of execution we are talking about. To my mind, it makes little difference whether we are talking about shooting people, hanging them or injecting them. We are talking of a cold, deliberate act of judicial execution with the full solemnity of the State.
      The root of the matter is, what acts as a deterrent? My response is that what acts as a deterrent at its most potent is the certainty of detection, followed by long periods of imprisonment. That is the most salutary and effective form of deterrent. Contrary to popular belief, the courts at present have plenty of scope to pass long and exemplary sentences. We need extremely good reasons for encompassing the new clauses within the Bill. We need extremely good reasons if we wish to run the risk, by adopting the new clauses, of facing the problems of implementation and of setting up yet again the means of execution, having scrapped it in 1965.
      I shall not dwell on the legal problems of categorisation tabulated by many hon. Members. There are the believe them most serious—of error. One also has to take account of the enormous prurient publicity that would attend any form of judicial execution. I do not need to

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      remind the House of the way in which the press can conduct itself at its worst. If there were any form of execution, some parts of the press would act at their worst.
      Those who may have forgotten need to be reminded of the dreary and pathetic groups waiting outside prisons and carrying placards and the agony of Home Secretaries of both parties who had to make the final and dreadful decision and who bore the terrible responsibility upon their shoulders. There would be enormous protests from the "antis". There would be the problems, totally unforeseen, of the first execution of a coloured youth from a deprived inner city area. Those who are tempted to gloss over this matter should consider the increased racial tensions in our society if such a step were actually taken.
      Many people have pored over the statistics with slide rules attempting to search the entrails for some sign that the reintroduction of capital punishment would make any difference. At best, the evidence is confused and inconclusive. What is certain is that crime levels for all offences have risen in all countries. There is great public concern. People are worried about increasing levels of vandalism, rape, robbery and violent crime, none of which would be prevented by the implementation of the new clauses.
      It may come as a great surprise to our constituents that Peter Sutcliffe, the Kray brothers, Hindley or Brady would not have been executed if the new clauses were already implemented. All would have been excluded. But the public are frustrated and want us to do something. When we are nonplussed about what to do, it is helpful to tell the unvarnished truth to the electorate, who are usually far more intelligent than some of us give them credit for.
      The first truth is that there is no solution to an easily quantifiable law and order problem. It is not that politicians are failing to fulfil their obligations. It is a problem of rising crime that the whole community, as well as ourselves, must attempt to solve. It would be extremely helpful if we could devote as much time as we are spending on this rather negative subject to the real problems of crime that face us.
      The public want to solve the problem of the roots of crime. Are they in television violence? That must play a part. Are they in the breakdown of parental influence and discipline? Are they, to some degree, in the problem of our soulless comprehensive schools? Are they in the fact that the more property we acquire in our society, the more policemen we need to guard it? These are the important matters to which we should be addressing ourselves, not the totem pole of capital punishment by which we continually divert ourselves from the real problems.
      Another and most important issue that we should address ourselves to with speed is why small children and those between the ages of 12 and 18 are committing crimes of violence and vandalism in school hours. These are matters that we can do something about. They are far more important than debating yet again the issue of capital punishment, as I am sure we shall have to in the next Parliament.
      I can find no evidence in the Home Office statistics relating to the possibility of executing those who kill policemen to prove that police deaths have escalated substantially since 1965. I agree with hon. Members who say that public opinion would find it extremely difficult to accept the selection of the police, as a group, for the sort
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      of protection that we would not give to other, extremely important groups in our society, who are also possibly exposed to death—bank clerks, for one.
      The use of statistics relating to armed robbery and to murders committed during armed robbery by some of my colleagues and by the press recently in furtherence of their case is, to put it politely, somewhat spurious. If people talk about the enormous escalation of the number of guns used in armed robbery, they should also point out that the bulk of these guns are air guns. Many of the offences that are termed serious are, when stripped down, not particularly serious.
      I should be fascinated to know if, when Spike Milligan shot his neighbour's cat in the bottom, that was part of the statistics quoted as a reason why we should consider yet again the reintroduction of capital punishment. The use of these statistics by my colleagues makes a good case for the regulating of air guns, but it does not advance the case for capital punishment one jot.
      I endorse what hon. Members have already said about the serious mistakes that have been made in the past when, after the event, fresh evidence has been unearthed which, if it was known at the time of the trial, would probably have meant that the jury would have acquitted or that the judge would have stopped the trial. This is not just a question of innocent people being killed by the State, although that is intolerable, and a terrible thing to be done. These mistakes have happened often in the past—for brevity's sake I shall not dwell on the circumstances of each case. If hon. Members wish to know, they can see me afterwards and I shall show them a document that will horrify them.
      It is clear to me—I have been told this by several senior policemen and barristers—that the fears of a jury about errors subsequently discovered could be played upon, and the jury might feel compelled to acquit someone who otherwise, as a guilty man, would have received a long prison sentence. Society could be put further at risk with a guilty man, capable of committing a crime of murder, still at large.
      It is incredible that anybody can sustain an argument that capital punishment can deter terrorists. All history dictates the contrary. We have seen example after example—in Aden and Cyprus, and in the Easter Rebellion of 1916, which saved no lives but cost many, and united a people who had had no previous use for the Sinn Fein to its bloody cause.
      After several young men have starved themselves to death in the cause of old Ireland, how can it be said that capital punishment is a deterrent? The ghouls who run the IRA are not deterred by death. They feed on death to suck inspiration from the grave. The IRA needs destruction to fuel its cause and it is frustrated, indeed, that until this time we have denied it judicial execution, enormous international publicity and martyrs.
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      Young men starved themselves to death to gain the publicity that we denied them. Without any question, to hang them would be to aid their cause. We should let them rot. That is a tough and terrible sentence. Let us not be fooled for one moment. Our prisons are not the glorified holiday centres that were described to the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Lewis) by his friend in a pub. Many of our prisons are horrible, rotting stinking places.

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      I believe that if a young man were sentenced to an extremely long sentence ——
      Mr. Arthur Lewis rose——
      Mr. Benyon: Let no one be under any illusion. These people are in prison for an extremely long time. I would much prefer to be executed than to stay in prison for a long time.
      Mr. Lewis rose——
      Mr. Benyon: How would we work out who would be executed? Would it be just those who planted and made the bombs? Do we really believe that the IRA has not thought this through carefully? Do we really believe that the IRA will not get 16-year-olds to plant the bombs? Do we think that the IRA will not get pregnant 16-year-olds to do it? What will we do then? Do we believe that the IRA will not get black pregnant 16-year-olds to do it if we exclude them?
      What are we going to do about those problems? Has anyone seriously thought through the problem of hostages which would come in the wake of capital punishment?
      Mr. Lewis rose——
      Mr. Benyon: It is conceded in civilised societies that no man should suffer sentence of death without the benefit of trial by jury. The absurd situation could arise where murderers would hang in Britain but not in Ulster. Perhaps that is regarded as a detail and perhaps, if the will is there, all is possible, but I would wish the proposers of the clauses the joy of all the juries they could find which would convict a man of capital charges in Ulster. The answer would be that we could replace juries with military tribunals. Men should think carefully before they venture down that avenue.
      The senior politicians involved do not want the return of the death penalty in Northern Ireland for crimes of terrorism. The security forces and the judiciary do not want it. Home Secretaries, current and past, do not want it. The only beneficiary of the reintroduction of capital punishment in Northern Ireland would be the IRA. If the new clause dealing with terrorism is scrapped, the others will fall. If an individual who plants a bomb in a pub and kills 12 people is not hanged, how can a man who kills one man in a robbery be executed?
      I have been told that, because the overwhelming majority of my constituents want the return of capital punishment. I should be mandated to come to the House to reflect their views. I am not a messenger boy for my constituents. I was elected to make judgments and, if those judgments are bad, my constituents have the option to vote for someone else at the next election. We do not have a plebiscitary democracy. I believe that that would undermine the House. Without doubt, a plebiscitary democracy is a friend of tyrants and demagogues. I shall not surrender my judgment to my constituents just because I feared that the expression of my convictions might prove unpopular to some.
      Let us unite to fight violent crime. There is no division in the House on that fight and on our resolve to do all that we can to defeat it. We must place logic before emotion and reason before passion. It is our duty to our constituents to use our reason and judgment. I am sure that the new clauses are honourably motivated in their intent but they
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      would cause anguish, division and confusion in operation and save not one innocent life. A Member of Parliament's duty is to use his reason and I shall vote "No" tonight.
      Mr. Bidwell: I am glad to take up the remarks of the hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Benyon). I noticed that he was nodding agreement when my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Lyon) said that we need a much more informed debate throughout the country on the restoration of capital punishment. The manner in which the subject is handled by the media is too flippant. If it is discussed on a late-night television chat show, it is usually one of several items that is discussed rather than the one item. The degree of human emotion that is involved and the necessity for a calm and reasoned judgment means that the issue warrants the widest possible debate.
      Those of us who have consistently opposed the restoration of capital punishment over the years fear the groundswell of public opinion, which is urging us to lake what I described in an earlier intervention as a decadent step for the nation. It would appear externally that Britain was taking a backward step and a disproportionate view of its internal affairs.
      It is all very well to say that for an offence of murder judges should be allowed to sentence an individual to death. Surely it becomes a ludicrous intellectual exercise to try to equate the murder of a policeman with the murder of any other person in the execution of his or her duty or in going to the aid of a policeman.
      The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths), who advises the Police Federation, made an extremely blunt speech. He spoke of the mistiming of the debate. I understand the emotion that caused some policemen to organise a considerable lobby to restore capital punishment.
      It has been said by many who have participated in the debate that there is a massive urge to bring back capital punishment. I do not believe that. If my own mail is anything to go by, there is no reason to think that that is so. London Members have received many communications enclosing cuttings from newspapers on fares increases in London. That lobby has been helped along by the insertion of coupons in newspapers and by other means, but at the same time there is genuine feeling about the increases. I understand the arguments that have been advanced by the Bromley council, but there is a strong feeling in London that it is necessary to introduce cheap fares. There is a relationship between crime in London and the ability to travel by public transport. The arguments intertwine. I shall not allow myself to be sidetracked by the argument that is adduced by London Transport.
      There is an enormous swell of public sympathy when it is announced that a policeman has been killed in the execution of his duty. That is extended to those who are injured or maimed for life. I have in mind a policeman who apprehended some robbers when he was not on duty. He was shot. He is paralysed and will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair.
      There has been much sympathy for such people. One can understand that. There is no lack of sympathy on my part for policemen who have been injured in the execution of their duties. In my family circle I have argued whether the restoration of capital punishment would deal with the problems more effectively. Notwithstanding the strong argument that the wrong person may be convicted, if I thought that the restoration of capital punishment for

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      certain types of murder would bring about a dramatic change in the crime rate, I would go into the Lobby with my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Lewis).
      I am not as well informed about the criminal world as my hon. Friend. He told the House about the robber who would go out with a gun, and be ready to use it, if he knew that he would not be hanged if he was caught. My hon. Friend may have superior connections with the criminal world. I hope that the story that he related is on the police records. He had a duty to inform the police in advance about the man who was disposed to commit the crimes about which he told the House.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: My hon. Friend could not have been listening with his usual diligence. I repeat, at the time of the Sydney Silverman Bill, for which I confess I voted, the criminal told me that if capital punishment was abolished, criminals would go out with their guns to shoot us. The matter is on the record. I will give my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell) the name and address of the person concerned afterwards. What the criminal told me has happened. Otherwise, every time one picks up a newspaper and reads that criminals have used sawn-off shotguns, the press is not telling the truth.
      Mr. Bidwell: I cannot accept the part of my hon. Friend's story that implies that the criminal would discriminate and calmly shoot another person rather than a policeman. If it was his intention to shoot at the outset, he would shoot the person who prevented his getaway.
      Mr. Lewis: I did not say that.
      Mr. Bidwell: The House will know that most of the speeches that I have made in the past have been on immigration. The present topic reminds me that the public favour or do not favour an issue in a blanket way until they consider individual cases. That is precisely the case if we are to restore previously used practices. The possibility of reprieve must, therefore, be placed in the hands of the Home Secretary. It is interesting to note that his would be the final judgment on both the death sentence and immigration.
      Home Office Ministers responsible for immigration matters will know that there is blanket hostility to immigrants, especially brown and black people, until there is a specific case. The public then examine the humanitarian issues involved and may want to make exceptions. I suspect that the same is true of public attitudes when there is a specific instance of the possible disposal of a human life. Historically, public attention has always varied in proportion to the horrific nature of the crime.
      8.45 pm
      As I did not know how many Opposition Members would have the chance to take part in the debate and I was conscious of your warning, Mr. Speaker, about the large number of hon. Members who wished to take part—especially Conservative Members, although I appreciate that this is a non-party matter—I intervened earlier to try to explain my position to the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) who has always been an activist in this matter. I had to narrow the matter down, and in doing so I thought in terms of the military situation
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      that the hon. Gentleman sought to introduce, allying this matter to the Falkland Islands situation. That is a wartime situation. I am not a pacifist and in certain circumstances, if I were a military commander, only the firing squad would suffice.
      That is not the situation here. Although many Opposition Members wish fundamentally to change the society in which we live, we cherish its liberties and processes as a whole and we cherish the nature of our national debates to rationalise these matters. When the London Television network sought a round-up of opinion in advance of today's debate to find out where Members of Parliament stood as individuals, I said that I do not tell people in advance exactly how I shall vote. I respect the hon. Gentleman's views, although I pulled his leg a little today, and I know that he reflects a large body of public opinion. Nevertheless, I believe that his conclusions are wrong, because I do not believe that people have considered coolly and calmly, in a national debate, the pros and cons, as has the Home Secretary. Moreover, the Home Secretary's views were buttressed in the debate by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley).
      I have listened to a number of these debates over the years. Today we had a massive, reasoned statement from the Home Secretary which, in my view, is well worth reading by those not privileged to be in the House when it was made. He made an unanswerable case against the restoration of capital punishment.
      In the end, however, it comes down to me. Even in cases of the most hideous crime, am I prepared in normal peacetime circumstances and normal civilised conditions to dispose of a human being? That is the question that I put to members of my family circle and beyond who, from a distance, argued for the restoration of capital punishment. Could they play the role of the executioner, the hangman? Some say "Yes", but most shy away from that challenge. In the final analysis, however, that must be the question, because we are asking the judicial process, the judges, and ultimately the Home Secretary, to make that lonely decision, unless the old system is changed to something new, which the Home Secretary was hinting at but which is unlikely to take place.
      Criminals and murderers are not let off in this country. As has been suggested, to some extent life imprisonment—if that is really what it is—or imprisonment for the best part of a person's life is a far worse punishment. Certainly my mentality recoils from it. Indeed, we have to prevent those serving life sentences from having in their cells the means to dispose of themselves. I remember a Tory candidate in one by-election suggesting that hardened criminals should be provided with the wherewithal to dispose of themselves, but we have rightly recoiled from that. Also, some people come out of prison to lead serious, successful and useful lives when, after the sifting process of probation and so on, they eventually emerge from incarceration.
      I have been open-minded and listened to the whole debate, but nothing has deflected me from my view that it would be a nationally decadent step to carry any of the new clauses, either the straight one to which I have alluded or any of the more idiotic gradations of sentencing.
      Several Hon. Members rose ——
      Mr. Speaker: I make a special appeal to the House. I understand that the wind-up is expected to begin at 9.40

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      pm, which gives us 50 minutes by my arithmetic. If speeches were limited to 10 minutes, we could have at least five.
      Mr. Malcolm Thornton: It is quite clear that there is a great deal that is not clear. It has been said, I think by the Home Secretary in his remarks, that when one looks at the question of the deterrent it is a marginal decision as to whether the statistics back up or disprove the case. My hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon (Mr. Benyon) referred to the fact that there is no easy solution to the problems of law and order and the increase in violence, not only in this country but in any civilised society throughout the world.
      I believe we should seek to add to the range of punishments that are offered by the courts. It has been said that a deterrent is the certainty of detection coupled with an effective punishment. Many of us believe that the ultimate deterrent, the finality of death, is the best deterrent for certain classes of capital murder. There are a number of clauses before the House and I particularly support the all-embracing one that seeks capital punishment for the wilful and unlawful taking of another person's life.
      My right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) talked about the distinctions drawn by the Homicide Act 1957 and the fact that they were unacceptable to public opinion. I believe that it has been shown quite clearly that it is almost impossible to draw such distinctions in the House. I believe strongly that we should answer what I believe are the people's overwhelming wishes. It has been said that we are not here as delegates. That is quite true. The views that I hold are views I have held for a long time.
      As my hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon said, he and I received today from people in the North-West—the majority of whom actually live on Merseyside—a petition of almost 125,000 signatures asking the House to restore capital punishment to our courts. In my constituency we recently undertook a sample survey of 1,000 voters and 960 of them were in favour of the reintroduction of capital punishment. There is a tremendous level of public support.
      I do not ask any of my colleagues to act against their wishes or their consciences. I am certain that they feel as strongly as I do, but I believe that they should, in all conscience, recognise that public opinion is equally strong. I believe that it is important to point out, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup mentioned, that there is a degree of confusion in the public mind when it calls for capital punishment to be restored. The public somehow believe that, by doing that, all violent crime will suddenly disappear from our society. I do not suggest that that is so. I suggest that for this most heinous of crimes—the wilful taking of someone else's life—the death penalty should be the ultimate deterrent. It is because I believe that it is a deterrent that I support the new clauses.
      Arguments may be marginal on either side, but it is important that hon. Members should say why they are prepared to support a course of action. I go back to the occasion when, as a very young man, I talked to a prison chaplain who had officiated at the executions of three murderers. He talked about not only his own experiences but the experiences of some of his colleagues. Between them, they had officiated at the executions of 11 murderers.
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      Obviously, many of us were interested to know what he felt about the death sentence. He said many things, but one thing especially stuck in my mind and I can recall his words to this day. He said that when a man is taken to be hanged it is an especially horrible experience. He is seldom able to walk and is usually dragged. He is out of control. He is vomiting with fear and unable to control his bowels. The prison chaplain said:
      "It is an experience which we all found extremely degrading—an experience which, because we were them on behalf of society, must inevitably degrade society as well. But do not ever, ever, underestimate the deterrent effect of that most awful punishment".
      The thought of being hanged by the neck until one is dead, which as we all know is an extremely clinical way of despatching someone, would certainly act as a deterrent to me. It should be available to our courts and the vast majority of our fellow citizens believe in it. For that reason, I shall go into the Lobby tonight and vote for the new clauses.
      Mr. Clinton Davis: The lion. Member for Liverpool, Garston (Mr. Thornton) has expressed a belief—no doubt sincerely—about the value, as he considers it, of capital punishment, but he did not elicit any evidence in support of that conclusion. I find it impressive that Home Secretary after Home Secretary in successive Governments of different political colours has formed the view that there is no satisfactory evidence that capital punishment provides a deterrent effect. Home Secretary after Home Secretary has concluded that the judgment of the House of Commons, as expressed for many years now, has been what he would wish. That is impressive because such people speak with considerable experience. A volume of evidence is available to them in making that judgment. The present Home Secretary expressed precisely that view today.
      Like most hon. Members, I have travelled in many countries where the death penalty prevails, but I have found no evidence in countries comparable to Britain that the position is demonstrably better in their inner city areas than here. Often it is significantly worse. The burden of establishing that capital punishment should be resurrected in Britain lies fairly and squarely on the shoulders of those who wish to re-establish it.
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      Mr. Robert Rhodes James: Would the hon. Member confirm that one of the most vehement opponents of the argument of capital punishment being a deterrent is the former official hangman, Mr. Pierrepount, whose book on the subject—"Execution"—should be read with great care?
      Mr. Nicholas Winterton: He changed his mind again.
      Mr. Rhodes James: No, he did not.
      Mr. Davis: I have not had the benefit of reading his book. If I have an opportunity to do so, I will. [Interruption.]
      Mr. Speaker: Order.
      Mr. Davis: I had not thought, Mr. Speaker, that I fad said anything remarkable or contentious up to now but the House seems to be in a tizz about it.
      Several propositions have been put before us about categorisation. None of the propositions is new. Of course,

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      hon. Members have properly referred to the experience of the Homicide Act 1957 in which capital murder was categorised. Murder in the furtherance of theft, by shooting or explosion, murder to prevent arrest, the murder of a policeman or the murder by a prisoner of a prison officer were categorised in that Act as capital murders. But grave anomalies were revealed, both as to sentencing and as to definition. That is what some hon. Members want to foist on us again. That would be a cardinal error.
      There are many reasons why capital punishment should not be reintroduced. I support particularly the argument about mistakes. I was interested to hear the arguments adduced by the hon. and learned Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve). He accepted that mistakes might occur but thought that, however sad, that was a risk that should be accepted. I am not prepared to accept that risk.
      In regard to the sort of mistakes that can occur, there is the innocent mistake that all advocates come across at some stage in their professional practice. I have been a lawyer since 1953 and have practised in the criminal courts for a long time. Often there is an innocent mistake about the identity of the assailant or the accused. Of course, careful directions are given by the trial judge about that sort of matter but I recall a case, not one of murder, where my client was positvely identified by two witnesses who could not be shaken. They had no room for doubt, but they were absolutely and totally wrong. Many such experiences could be revealed to the House by lawyers who have appeared in criminal cases over the years. In that instance we were able to establish an alibi but it is not always easy to do so. Often it is difficult to obtain corroborative evidence to support an alibi.
      Again there is often a mistake about what was said, the circumstances in which it was said and who said it. These aspects of evidence can often lead to a jury finding someone guilty, but they may be wrong. Capital punishment means that such mistakes cannot be repaired.
      Then there is the deliberate mistake, where a jury may be induced to make mistakes because of concocted evidence, such as "verbals" or planting. These things happen in real life, regrettable though they may be.
      Mr. Rees-Davies: Never in my experience in murder cases.
      Mr. Davis: That is an absolute statement by the hon. and learned Gentleman. I am sure there are many lawyers who would disagree fundamentally with his conclusion.
      The risks are grave indeed. They are notably grave where the defendant has a record and where, perhaps, the prosecution genuinely believes that he has committed the offence but where the evidence is a little threadbare.
      There have been a number of cases—I will not cite them all—where people have served sentences of imprisonment in murder cases for long periods of time and then had their sentences quashed. A posthumous pardon provides little satisfaction to anybody.
      I agree with those Conservative Members who spoke about the dreadful symbolism in the taking of life by the State. I was recently in South Africa where I attempted to see a prisoner in Pretoria prison. I do not begin to compare that tawdry and corrupt society with our own, but I will never forget the haunted faces of relatives who were
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      visiting their loved ones day after day, waiting for the day when their loved ones' lives were to be extinguished. It is not a happy situation.
      For me, that situation made a reality of something that I had not witnessed for many years. When I was an articled clerk my firm was engaged in the Ruth Ellis case, although only towards the end. It was a ghoulish situation indeed. I never want to see a situation recur where people wait outside the prison gates for the notice to be posted, for the bell to toll, waiting to see some signification that the prisoner's life has been taken, because it is not the sign of a civilised society.
      Mr. J. F. Pawsey: I hope that the hon. Member for Hackney, Central (Mr. Davis) will forgive me if I do not pursue him too far down the road that he has signposted.
      I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member of Ilford, North (Mr. Bendall) on his initiative in introducing this debate. It has proved to be extremely worth while.
      I am pleased that the debate is taking place without the added pressure of emotion. Thankfully, there has not recently been an infamous murder, such as the brutal killing of a paper boy some years ago, the Moors murders or the kidnapping of Leslie Whittle when she was taken into a tunnel and murdered. There is no emotive case fuelling today's debate. There are no screaming headlines. There are no distraught parents or anguished friends. There is only the realisation that society evidently cannot protect itself effectively from those who are not prepared to live by the rules that bind most of us. That underlines the strength of today's arguments for the return of capital punishment. It is not being pressed in this Chamber in heat as a result of some recent terrible action. The debate is the more thoughtful and the more reasoned because of the absence of such emotional pressures. Yet, as I said, it certainly underlines the strength of public feeling on this issue. Public opinion demands the return of capital punishment. That it can be argued coolly and unemotionally in the Chamber reflects well on all hon. Members who have taken part in the debate.
      I am convinced that the death penalty constitutes a real and substantial deterrent.
      Mr. Martin Flannery: Prove it.
      Mr. Pawsey: The hon. Gentleman asks me to prove it. If he is patient and listens to my argument, perhaps he, too, if he has an open mind, will be convinced of the strength of my argument.
      The overwhelming majority of people believe in the deterrent effect of capital punishment. Criminals and murderers are part of that same society. Therefore, I see no reason why they should be different from the mass of society, in this instance at least. If that majority of society believes it to be a deterrent, it follows logically that the majority of those who might be tempted to commit murder will likewise be influenced and the existence of the death penalty will therefore have a considerable deterrent effect.
      Those who favour the continued abolition of the death penalty have, throughout the debate, produced a string of statistics that allegedly support their view. I am reminded of a quotation:
      "lies, damned lies, and statistics."
      I am also reminded that selective figures may be produced to bolster and substantiate virtually any argument that one

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      wishes to advance. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) said, the numbers of homicides has doubled since 1964. That is fact, not myth. The death penalty would be a positive deterrent to certain types of murder. That would certainly include the murder of a police or prison officer.
      Mr. John G. Blackburn: I have taken part in five murder inquiries and arrested a murderer. The last case of a police officer being killed in the execution of his duty occurred in the Merseyside police force in July last year. Constable Davonport was murdered. His assailants were convicted and sentenced to four years and two months imprisonment.
      Mr. Pawsey: I am glad that I gave way to my hon. Friend, who is certainly learned in this matter. That instance helps to underline the strength of my case. The death penalty would also be an effective deterrent to premeditated murder. Under that heading, I include the carrying of a firearm. I mention that because, according to Mr. Kelland, assistant commissioner for crime in the Metropolitan Police, firearms were used in 1,415 offences last year compared with 767 offences in 1980. Clearly the increase in the use of firearms has resulted in an increase of the number of people at risk. No doubt we shall shortly read that someone has been shot and killed in the futherance of a criminal act. But fewer criminals would carry firearms if they knew the penalty that would probably be exacted from them if their victim died.
      It cannot be argued—as hon. Members on both sides of the House have sought to do—that life imprisonment is a significant deterrent for violent crime. Violent crime continues to increase and, therefore, a deterrent that clearly does not deter is worthless. I am also convinced that fewer people would be maimed and injured if the death penalty were in existence, for the criminal would know that, if his aim were a little less sure or his blow a little less precise and his victim died instead of being desperately disabled, he would pay the penalty.
      Criminals calculate just as we do. They will weigh up the risks and decide that it is not worth carrying a firearm or weapon. Therefore, the introduction of the death penalty will have a significant effect not only on the number of murders committed but on the number of violent assaults against the person, particularly assaults in which a high degree of violence is involved.
      Mr. Flannery: Prove it.
      Mr. Pawsey: In an earlier intervention the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) asked how I could believe that the public were in favour of restoring the death penalty. I am quite prepared to put the issue to a referendum, because I am confident of the outcome of such a referendum.
      9.15 pm
      Mr. Flannery: The hon. Gentleman, I hope not deliberately, has totally misquoted me. I never said to him that he should prove to me that the general public would 'agree with his stance. He said that he would prove that capital punishment was a deterrent, and I said to him `Trove it". So the hon. Gentleman has utterly distorted what I said. What is more, he has not given one iota of proof about the subject that I asked him to prove.
      Mr. Pawsey: The hon. Member has not been listening carefully. One of the snags of making sedentary interventions is that one can be misunderstood.
      I come back to the argument. The fact that we rightly exercise our individual judgment in the House and make up our own minds is clearly good for parliamentary democracy. However, in another sense it may weaken that same parliamentary democracy, because we are clearly shown to be at variance with the overwhelming wishes of our constituents.
      Mr. Kenneth Lewis rose——
      Mr. Pawsey: I shall not give way. There are other hon. Members who wish to speak.
      The electorate may well question the effectiveness of Parliament and democracy when it sees proceedings in this place running counter to the wishes of the majority. After all, we accept majority decisions in our lives, and it is a majority decision that brings hon. Members to the House.
      To disregard the wishes of the public brings the institution of Parliament into question. I do not advocate Members of Parliament becoming populists, but we should accept that perhaps the people have a point. On this issue they might be right and the majority in the House might be wrong. I do not particularly enjoy advocating capital punishment, because it is a penalty that I personally find repugnant. However, I find equally repugnant the murder of those who, if the penalty had truly reflected the crime, might be alive today.
      One of the arguments that is often advanced against capital punishment is the risk that an innocent person might be properly tried and yet wrongly convicted. That is the principal objection. I recognise it and take it into account. However, such cases are rare. The point was well made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve) who spoke from personal experience on the matter. I respect the advocacy that he presented to the House.
      We must have a balance sheet with, on the one hand, the loss of one or perhaps two innocent lives through judicial procedure, and, on the other, the loss of innocent lives by acts of murder that would have been prevented had an effective deterrent been in existence. The balance sheet of life would show that many more people would be alive today if capital punishment had been retained.
      Justice should be as nearly perfect as we can get it in an imperfect world. Clearly the death penalty should be exacted only when all the proper and judicial procedures have been exhausted. I am aware that no human justice can be perfect, and that even the cleverest judge and jury can be fallible. Even knowing that there is a risk of an innocent person being convicted and executed, as an indication of my sincerity and belief that the deterrent will work, I advocate the reintroduction of the death penalty tonight. I shall therefore vote for the new clauses.
      Mrs. Jill Knight: In debating the issue whether a convicted murderer should be liable to capital punishment, we have to face the fact that no punishment is presently available to British courts which acts as a deterrent to murder. The figures prove it, and the people know it. Although it would not be right for hon. Members to vote on this issue under pressure, or to vote against their conscience, they should take into consideration the clearly expressed and overwhelming opinion of the British people in deciding the issue.

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      To consider that opinion is one thing. I am not saying that we should be shepherded into the Lobbies by it if it is against our consciences, but we should consider it. I do not think that the British people are bloodthirsty, vindictive, stupid, overemotional or thoughtless. They are apprehensive and fearful. Whatever the statistics may be said to show, the people know that there are more murders today than they can ever remember in the past. I have been amazed to hear hon. Members suggest that it is otherwise. Only a few years ago, a murder would make the headlines. Today, in practically every paper that we pick up we find that in several instances small paragraphs are sufficient to contain the news about a murder.
      To a certain extent, statistics have been fudged by the renaming of so many murders as manslaughter. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve) mentioned that point. In Birmingham recently, while a man was working peaceably on his allotment, two young thugs came up who wanted to steal his car to impress a couple of girls. They battered him to death. According to the statistics, that is manslaughter. I cannot understand it. Recently, an old lady was stabbed to death by robbers in her corner shop for the few pounds in her till. According to the statistics, that is manslaughter. Even when police on duty today are killed in the execution of their duty, time and again the case is down as manslaughter. I find that difficult to follow.
      We should listen to what the people say. I am certain that they want Parliament to protect them. In deciding this issue, we must take that into consideration. The great question that we have been debating is whether capital punishment would deter. Some hon. Members believe that it would not. I respect their view. They have a perfect right to express it and to vote in support of that view. Equally, I have a right to say that I cannot believe that capital punishment does not deter.
      I have no doubt that, faced with the possibility of losing his life, a potential murderer, in most cases—not all cases—would draw back. The only reson why I support new clause 22 and making the sentence of capital punishment available to the courts is that I want to save life. I am not interested in the least in revenge.
      In the debate hon. Members' views are coloured 95 per cent. by their own convictions and 5 per cent. by statistics. That is wise because statistics on this matter can be made to prove anything. We are making up our minds. We should listen to the evidence. I have been surprised that in the whole debate there has been so little reference to the evidence of the Police Federation. Whatever we may feel and whatever our convictions may be, the members of the Police Federation are 99·7 per cent. adamant that capital punishment would deter. We should listen to the experts.
      Many times in the debate the old argument has been brought up about the possibility of mistakes being made and of innocent people being hanged. What has not been brought up in the debate or in any other debate on the issue is the fact that on record there are now a large and frightening number of known murderers who have been convicted, sent to prison and let out and who have murdered again.
      I shall give a few names. There was Wesley Churchman, who murdered in 1958 before the abolition of the death penalty. He was imprisoned for his crime and released in June 1964 and murdered a man called Mr.
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      Alfred Martin. Donald Forbes murdered a night watchman. He was imprisoned and then released on parole in May 1970; he killed again in July 1970. Mr. Simcox, who had relatives in my constituency, murdered his wife in 1948. He was released and murdered his sister in 1964.
      There are many others, and I have spent a considerable time investigating their cases. There was Abdul Hussin, Kenneth Sharley, Terence Iliffe, Bryan Knight, John George Robinson, Stefan Sterncynski and Leslie Goodall. George Unsworth killed a prostitute in 1970, was released from prison in 1979, and eight months later killed a little boy of 8. In 1977 Vincent Smith stabbed and beat a man to death. He was given life imprisonment and while in prison strangled a young cellmate. Arthur Wynne was freed from a life sentence for murder. He was a model prisoner, undertaking an Open University degree course and getting his BA degree with flying colours. He was a splendid prisoner. Two months after his release he strangled a 23-year-old girl.
      There are many more such cases. Time prevents me from citing them all. In a fairly short time in the Library last night I found no fewer than 18 examples of convicted murderers who had been released and had murdered again. It has been adduced that the overwhelming majority of murders are committed within the family. Out of those 18 murders, seven initial murders were committed on members of the family, but 10 were committed on strangers. The argument that murders are nearly all family matters does not stand up. It is absolutely certain, beyond peradventure, that between 20 and 25 people were killed by those released murderers. Many of those people would have been alive today if capital punishment had not been abolished.
      Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Will the hon. Lady give way?
      Mrs. Knight: No. I am trying to get through my speech as quickly as I can.
      The arguments run thick and fast, but because they are so well balanced we must in the end come back to the evidence of the experts and the conviction of hon. Members. Every point put forward on this subject has a counterbalancing argument. I cannot believe, as one hon. Member said, that if we brought back capital punishment there would be a rush of people anxious for the glory and drama of facing the gallows who would murder because of the dramatic effect. That does not make sense.
      The argument has been put forward that capital punishment would coarsen society. Society was not as coarse when we had capital punishment as it is today. There was much more respect for people's lives. Again and again all the arguments have their counterbalance. I do not like the fact that the police carry guns and kill without judge and jury. However, that is necessary in todays circumstances. We have capital punishment in' Britain today, and to a large extent it is capital punishment for the young, the old, the innocent and the helpless. That worries me. Not once tonight has a reason been put forward that convinces me that a return to the threat of capital punishment would not save life. On that basis shall support the new clauses tonight.
      Miss Joan Lestor: I wish that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Mrs. Knight)

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      had given way during her speech, because some of her remarks were inaccurate and must be corrected. Many of the people on her list were not convicted murderers.
      Mrs. Knight: Yes, they were.
      Miss Lestor: They are convicted murderers only if initially charged with the crime of murder. Many of them were charged with the crime of manslaughter. That point was not made by the hon. Lady.
      Mrs. Knight rose——
      Miss Lestor: I shall not give way. The hon. Lady did not give way during her speech and so she must remain seated and take it for a moment.
      The more important argument is that many of the people on the hon. Lady's list, even if we had retained capital punishment, would not have been hanged, because of the circumstances of the crime they committed. The hon. Lady must be accurate when she brings forward such evidence.
      Earlier, an hon. Member said that it was worth the lives of a few innocent people to ensure this great deterrent of capital punishment. I wish he would say that to the family of Timothy Evans, who was hanged and later pardoned; to the family of James Hanratty, over whom much doubt still exists and has existed ever since he was hanged for murder; and to the parents of Bentley, an educationally subnormal young man who was hanged for a crime that he did not commit because at no time was it ever alleged that he fired the shot that killed.
      9.30 pm
      I wish that those hon. Members who say that it is worth sacrificing innocent lives so that the rest of us may go in safety would face those parents, some of whom I have met, and put that argument to them. I doubt very much whether they would make the same suggestion if it were their sons who were hanged for murders that they did not commit.
      Many hon. Members have talked a great deal about the deterrent value. We have heard about the prison chaplain who spoke of the horror and indignity of a man being dragged from prison to be hanged. That chaplain said that, although it was horrific, we should never underestimate the deterrent value of such an event. On that argument, we had better go back to public hanging, because, thank God, most of us will never witness such a thing. If the deterrent value in hanging lies in the drama, tragedy and horrific nature of the ceremony that surrounds it, we must go back to public hanging. In effect, that chaplain was saying "Let people see what I have seen and they will be deterred from murder." That is what must happen, because that is the logic of the argument.
      Other hon. Members who support the reintroduction of capital punishment have said in simplicity that society is more violent today—I am not convinced of that—and that it follows that if we had hanging for certain types of murder people would be deterred.
      The hon. Member for Edgbaston gave an example of a person who had committed the crime of manslaugher or murder at a time when capital punishment existed. Therefore, it was not a deterrent to that person. Nevertheless, the argument is that people will be deterred.
      The arguments and all the evidence do not sustain that view. Whether we are more violent now than previously is something that we must debate on another occasion. I
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      look to South Africa, where a quarter of all executions by States or countries take place. That is a most violent society—[Interruption.] There is nothing wrong with my figures. I said that a quarter of all the executions in the world take place in South Africa. South Africa is an extremely violent society.
      I look to Iran, where, despite the most hideous penalties, including various types of death sentence, people again and again risk those penalties and suffer them to oppose a regime about which they feel deeply.
      In America, the situation varies between States as to whether they have capital punishment or not.
      The evidence in support of the deterrent argument is very weak indeed. People trot out the referendum argument when they believe that it will be on their side. But whatever our constituents may say, they have a choice. They can say to us at the end of the day "We do not agree with what you did; therefore, we shall seek a representative who supports our views on capital punishment." Alternatively, we must go to them and say "These are my views. This is what I believe. Just because you believe something else, I cannot vote for something that I believe to be damaging and brutalising to our society with no evidence to suggest that it will deter one individual or make our society any better."
      Many people who take refuge in the argument that hanging is a deterrent run away from some of the more difficult problems about why a minority of people behave in the way that they do and how we can begin to change social conditions and circumstances to prevent it from happening.
      Mr. Kenneth Lewis: I have listened to most of this debate and I do not wish to comment on any speech except to say that we have had two notable speeches from the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath).
      My hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths) said that he thought that this debate should not have taken place so soon after the last debate on this subject. I agree with him and I hope that there will be no repetition of this debate, at least in this Parliament.
      Most of the debate has revolved around the question whether the death penalty is a deterrent. We used to speak of the death penalty as being a deterrent against murder, but the argument has now been extended so that even the Police Federation is speaking of it as being a deterrent against not only murder but violent crime generally. This reasoning has been taken up in the country and, to some extent, in the House itself. Some people are beginning to say that the abolition of the death penalty is a cause of all violent crime. I do not accept that.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor), in a good speech from his point of view, somewhat destroyed his own case. He said that when he was a Member of Parliament for a Scottish constituency, there was much violent crime in Glasgow, especially among young people. It was stamped out because the courts began to take a strong line on imprisonment and imposed heavier prison sentences against the young razor gangs in Glasgow. Therefore, I believe that my hon. Friend destroyed his argument that the death penalty alone is a means by which violent crime can be reduced. There

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      are other means of reducing violent crime, and one of them is to increase prison sentences and the rigours of the prison system.
      My position has changed since we last debated capital punishment. I then voted in favour of the death penalty for those who murdered police officers, prison warders and the like. I do not intend to repeat that. I shall not vote for the death penalty in any circumstances. I shall give two reasons, and only two reasons, why I have changed my mind and will therefore change my vote. First, recently a man in Leeds sought to apprehend someone who was committing a burglary. The burglar turned on the man. That man, who was really making a citizens' arrest, was killed.
      If there were the death penalty only for those who killed policemen, the relatives of that man, acting as a policeman, and the country would have had no redress. The man who had committed the murder would not have suffered the death penalty under most of the proposed new clauses. Do the police really want cover for themselves but not cover for other citizens who are trying to hold back those who are violent?
      My second reason for a change of mind is the jury system that now exists. This matter was mentioned by the right hon. Member for Hillhead, but he did not take it as far as I intend to do. In a system where there is both a unanimous verdict and a majority verdict, is it not inevitable that among the 12 people on the jury there would be at least two, perhaps three and maybe more, who would be opposed to the death penalty?. They would be reluctant to contribute towards a unanimous verdict. I do not believe that any judge would put on the black cap and inflict the death penalty under a majority verdict. In practical terms, I believe that there would hardly ever be a unanimous verdict if the death penalty were available.
      Most of our constituents do not understand the difficulties. I become as mad as anyone when I hear of some of the murders that take place. I do not think that the number of murders of police officers has greatly increased, although the number of murders generally has increased. Of course I should myself feel like murdering any person who had committed a murder. My instincts are no different from those of my constituents. I believe, however, that hon. Members have to be practical. In practical terms, I do not believe that it is possible to bring back the death penalty.
      Mr. Edward Gardner: I am sorry to hear that my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Lewis) has changed his mind and will not be accompanying in the Lobby those who support the return of capital punishment. I have little time in which to try to change my hon. Friend's mind again, but I am not entirely without hope.
      This has been a most impressive and, at the same time, most disturbing debate. A distinguished contribution was made by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who gave a cool and careful appraisal of the arguments both for the reintroduction of capital punishment and for retaining the present position.
      The debate has also been distinguished by the speech of the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Jenkins), a former Home Secretary, who, as I understood
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      him, said that if he could be satisfied that the security and protective effect of capital punishment did what it was purported to do by its supporters he would think again.
      I should like also to mention the authoritative and impressive contribution of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), a former Prime Minister, who used those sweet words of Edmund Burke instructing Members of this House that they must act according to their conscience. Those words, coming from a former Chief Whip, gave an authority and comfort that otherwise they would not have had.
      9.45 pm
      Three new clauses have been tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Bendall) that attempt to bring in capital punishment for specific forms of murder—for murder by terrorists, for murder by firearms, and for the murder of police officers and prison officers. The clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) adds to those three categories capital punishment for robbery and burglary with offensive weapons.
      Each of those clauses is an illustration of the way that capital punishment could be used if it were reintroduced. The clause in my name, and the names of my hon. Friends, is an attempt to give the House the opportunity of voting on the general principle of whether we ought to reintroduce capital punishment into our law.
      We all know, and have known for a long time, that the overwhelming majority of people in this country—our constituents—want the death penalty to be reintroduced because they believe, rightly or wrongly, that the death penalty is a deterrent—a unique deterrent that no other punishment can replace, will give hope of reducing the numbers of murders, and will provide a safeguard for those innocent lives that may otherwise be lost at the hands of potential murderers.
      Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: Does my hon. Friend think that the sixth vote—which is what tonight's will be—on capital punishment will persuade the people in this country who believe that Parliament is not in step with them that it is in step? Does he not consider that perhaps a referendum is the only way by which Parliament and people can come together over this issue?
      Mr. Gardner: I have seen my hon. Friend's amendment, as we all have. Let us wait to see what tonight's vote produces before deciding what to do if it produces the wrong result.
      There is no doubt that we are called upon tonight to decide by our vote whether we can reflect in the House, by a majority, the view of most people by restoring capital punishment to the legal punishments that are available for murder.
      If it were possible to be persuaded that without capital punishment there is remaining to the law a deterrent as effective as capital punishment many of us would have to think again. The view of those of us who want the return of capital punishment is that there is no other alternative that will give the effect that we want to achieve and that capital punishment undoubtedly provides. Whatever our views on capital punishment, we all agree that the paramount duty of the State is to protect innocent human life with the best possible means available.
      The protection of human life is a duty higher than any duty to protect the property. The vital question that we are

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      debating—it is vital to the people of Britain, whatever the House may think about it—is how best we can provide the best means of giving the best protection against murder.
      The death penalty is undoubtedly a terrible punishment, but it is a punishment for a terrible crime. It is the gravest of all crimes which deserves, in the opinion of the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment of 1953, the gravest of all punishments. Can anyone doubt that the death penalty is a deterrent? But what kind of deterrent is it?
      We believe that by reintroducing capital punishment we can materially lessen the risk to innocent lives of death by murder. Those hon. Members who support new clause 22 believe that the death penalty is the most powerful and effective deterrent, the most likely deterrent to deal with and suppress any intention to kill and that there is no other form of punishment that compares with it. In other words, it is a unique deterrent. Dr. Johnson said that those who contemplate this punishment have their minds concentrated. It could be added that there is nothing more likely to persuade a professional criminal to leave his gun at home than the prospect of capital punishment.
      Mr. Frank R. White: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that Albert Pierrepoint, the last official executioner in Britain, in his autobiography concluded, having faced murderers eye to eye, at that last terrible moment before putting the noose over the neck, that no single act of hanging had been a deterrent?
      Mr. Gardner: He did write that in his book, but he said later that he had changed his mind. In any event, it seems to me, as it may seem to the House, that that is a completely irrelevant point. There is nothing so terrible as the death penalty. In 1964, Henry Brooke, a former Home Secretary, in the debate on Mr. Silverman's Bill, said:
      "I think that if it can be shown that by retaining the death penalty for some or all types of murder one is materially lessening the likelihood of innocent people suffering death by murder, then there is no ground or moral principle on which one should dismiss the death penalty … it is a unique deterrent."—[Official Report, 21 December 1964; Vol. 704, c. 908.]
      Mr. Brooke was saying what I understood the right hon. Member for Hillhead to say, that if he could be satisfied that the death penalty was effective there were no moral grounds for opposing it. That is the case for the abolitionist—for the person who does not want to have the death penalty back. It is a question of the onus of proof.
      Speaker after speaker in the debate has said that the onus of proving that the death penalty is an effective deterrent lies on the shoulders of those who assert it. The burden of proving that the death penalty is not a deterrent lies well within the province of those who are trying to defeat our attempts to reintroduce it. If someone could establish with any certainty that capital punishment is no more effective as a deterrent than life imprisonment, he would have a formidable argument and those of us who want to see the reintroduction of the death penalty might well have to think again. However, no one has established that. There is no evidence to that effect.
      The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) said that he thought that those of us who want to reintroduce capital punishment are acting on a hunch. He said that there is no conclusive evidence on either side of the argument. He claimed that the statistics do not add up and that the figures do not make sense. He argued that we cannot produce a conclusive argument from such figures. If the right hon. Gentleman is saying that we
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      are acting on a hunch, what is he acting on when he invites the House to reject our arguments? How can anyone believe and accept that capital punishment is to be equated with life imprisonment as a punishment?
      Life imprisonment does not mean what it says. It holds out the continuous hope of release on licence. The police do not believe that life imprisonment can be equated with the death penalty, and nor do prison officers. The enormous majority of the public who have made their views known do not believe it either. In common with them, those of us who want to reintroduce capital punishment do not believe it either, and that is why those of us who support the clauses will vote for them in the Division. I hope that other hon. Members will follow our good example.
      Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:
      The House proceeded to a Division:—
      Mr. Speaker: Would the four Tellers come to the Table, please?
      MR. MARCUS Fox, MR. GEORGE GARDINER, MR. ALFRED DUBS and MR. JOHN MAXTON, who had been named as Tellers in the Division, came to the Table.
      Mr. Speaker: I understand that there is to be a statement by one of the Tellers.
      Mr. George Gardiner: In the "No" Lobby, Mr. Speaker, there is a dispute between the Tellers over the counting procedure, so we have halted counting and we are not in a position to complete it.
      Mr. Speaker: Under those circumstances I shall put the Question again and call the Division a second time.
      Question again put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
      The House divided: Ayes 195, Noes 357.

      Division No. 142]

      [10.16 pm

      AYES

      Adley, Robert

      Cockeram, Eric

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Cormack, Patrick

      Alexander, Richard

      Corrie, John

      Alison, Rt Hon Michael

      Costain, Sir Albert

      Aspinwall, Jack

      Cranborne, Viscount

      Atkins, Rt Hon H.(S'thorne)

      Crouch, David

      Atkins, Robert (Presfon N)

      Dean, Paul (North Somerset)

      Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E)

      Dickens, Geoffrey

      Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

      Dover, Denshore

      Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Bendall, Vivian

      Dunn, Robert (Dartford)

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay)

      Dunnett, Jack

      Bevan, David Gilroy

      Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

      Biggs-Davison, Sir John

      Eggar, Tim

      Blackburn, John

      Eyre, Reginald

      Blaker, Peter

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

      Faith, Mrs Sheila

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Farr, John

      Bowden, Andrew

      Fell, Sir Anthony

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

      Bright, Graham

      Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh

      Brinton, Tim

      Fry, Peter

      Brotherton, Michael

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n)

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Browne, John (Winchester)

      Goodhart, Sir Philip

      Bruce-Gardyne, John

      Goodhew, Sir Victor

      Burden, Sir Frederick

      Gorst, John

      Butcher, John

      Gray, Hamish

      Cadbury, Jocelyn

      Grieve, Percy

      Cant, R. B.

      Griffiths, E.(B'ySt. Edm'dis)

      Carlisle, John (Luton West)

      Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)

      Chapman, Sydney

      Grylls, Michael

      Churchill, W. S.

      Hamilton, Hon A.

      Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Clegg, Sir Walter

      Hannám, John

      683

      Hastings, Stephen

      Price, SirDavid (Eastleigh)

      Hawkins, Paul

      Proctor, K. Harvey

      Hawksley, Warren

      Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)

      Heddle, John

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Henderson, Barry

      Ridley, Hon Nicholas

      Hicks, Robert

      Ridsdale, Sir Julian

      Hill, James

      Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      Hogg, Hon Douglas(Gr'th'm)

      Roberts, Albert(Normanton)

      Holland, Philip(Carlton)

      Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)

      Howell, Rt Hon D.(G'ldf'd)

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Howell, Ralph (NNorfolk)

      Robinson, P. (Belfast E)

      Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

      Rost, Peter

      Jessel, Toby

      Shaw, Michael(Scarborough)

      Kaberry, SirDonald

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Shepherd, Richard

      Kershaw, Sir Anthony

      Silvester, Fred

      Kimball, Sir Marcus

      Sims, Roger

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Knight, Mrs Jill

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Lang, Ian

      Smith, Dudley

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Smyth, Rev. W. M. (Belfast S)

      Latham, Michael

      Speller, Tony

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Spence, John

      Lee, John

      Spicer, Jim (WestDorset)

      LeMarchant, Spencer

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW)

      Sproat, Iain

      Loveridge, John

      Stainton, Keith

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Stanbrook, lvor

      MacKay, John (Argyll)

      Stanley, John

      McNair-Wilson, P. (NewF'st)

      Steen, Anthony

      McQuade, John

      Stevens, Martin

      Marland, Paul

      Stewart, A. (ERenfrewshire)

      Marlow, Antony

      Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

      Marten, Rt Hon Neil

      Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

      Mates, Michael

      Stokes, John

      Mather, Carol

      Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

      Mawby, Ray

      Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

      Mawhinney, Dr Brian

      Temple-Morris, Peter

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.

      Mills, Iain(Meriden)

      Thompson, Donald

      Mills, Peter (West Devon)

      Thorne, Neil(IlfordSouth)

      Molyneaux, James

      Thornton, Malcolm

      Monro, Sir Hector

      Townend, John (Bridlington)

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Trippier, David

      Moore, John

      Trotter, Neville

      Morgan, Geraint

      van Straubenzee, Sir W.

      Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

      Viggers, Peter

      Mudd, David

      Wakeham, John

      Murphy, Christopher

      Walker, B. (Perth)

      Neubert, Michael

      Wall, Sir Patrick

      Normanton, Tom

      Ward, John

      Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.

      Warren, Kenneth

      Osborn, John

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Page, John (Harrow, West)

      Whitney, Raymond

      Page, Richard (SW Herts)

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Wilkinson, John

      Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

      Williams, D. (Montgomery)

      Parris, Matthew

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Wolfson, Mark

      Pawsey, James

      Percival, Sir Ian

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Mr. George Gardiner and

      Pollock, Alexander

      Mr. Marcus Fox.

      Porter, Barry

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Adams, Allen

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd)

      Allaun, Frank

      Beith, A.J.

      Alton, David

      Benn, Rt Hon Tony

      Amery, Rt Hon Julian

      Bennett, Andrew(St'kp'tN)

      Ancram, Michael

      Benyon, Thomas (A 'don)

      Anderson, Donald

      Benyon.W.(Buckingham)

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Best, Keith

      Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Ashton, Joe

      Biffen, Rt Hon John

      Atkinson, N.(H'gey)

      Body, Richard

      Bagier, Gordon A.T.

      Booth, Rt Hon Albert

      Baker, Kenneth (Sf.M'bone)

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Banks, Robert

      Bottomley, Rt Hon A.(M'b'ro)

      684

      Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)

      Flannery, Martin

      Bradley, Tom

      Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N)

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston)

      Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Brooke, Hon Peter

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Ford, Ben

      Brown, R. C. (N'castle W)

      Forman, Nigel

      Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S)

      Forrester, John

      Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

      Foster, Derek

      Buchan, Norman

      Foulkes, George

      Buck, Antony

      Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd)

      Budgen, Nick

      Fraser, Peter (South Angus)

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

      Butler, Hon Adam

      Freud, Clement

      Callaghan, Rt Hon J.

      Garel-Jones, Tristan

      Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n&P)

      Garrett, John (NorwichS)

      Campbell, Ian

      George, Bruce

      Campbell-Savours, Dale

      Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

      Canavan, Dennis

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

      Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

      Ginsburg, David

      Carlisle, Rt Hon M.(R 'c'n)

      Golding, John

      Carmichael, Neil

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Gow, Ian

      Cartwright, John

      Graham, Ted

      Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

      Grimond, Rt Hon J.

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Grist, Ian

      Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S)

      Gummer, John Selwyn

      Coleman, Donald

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Colvin, Michael

      Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)

      Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

      Hardy, Peter

      Conlan, Bernard

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      Cook, Robin F.

      Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

      Cope, John

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Cowans, Harry

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      Cox, T. (W'dsw't h, Toot'g)

      Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

      Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill)

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Haynes, Frank

      Critchley, Julian

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Crowther, Stan

      Heath, Rt Hon Edward

      Cryer, Bob

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Cunliffe, Lawrence

      Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

      Cunningham, G.(IslingtonS)

      Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L

      Cunningham, Dr J.(W'h'n)

      Hogg, N. (EDunb't'nshire)

      Dalyell, Tam

      Holland, S.(L'b'th, Vauxh'll)

      Davidson, Arthur

      Home Robertson, John

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)

      Homewood, William

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Hooley, Frank

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Hooson, Tom

      Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)

      Horam, John

      Deakins, Eric

      Hordern, Peter

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Howell, Rt Hon D.

      Dewar, Donald

      Howells, Geraint

      Dixon, Donald

      Huckfield, Les

      Dobson, Frank

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Dormand, Jack

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

      Dorrell, Stephen

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Douglas, Dick

      Hunt, David (Wirral)

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

      Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Janner, Hon Greville

      Dunn, James A.

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

      Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

      Dykes, Hugh

      Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Hillhead)

      Eadie, Alex

      John, Brynmor

      Eastham, Ken

      JohnsonSmith, Geoffrey

      Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)

      Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

      Edwards, R. (W'hampt'nSE)

      Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)

      Elliott, Sir William

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Ellis, R. (NED'bysh're)

      Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

      English, Michael

      Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

      Ennals, Rt Hon David

      Kerr, Russell

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Ewing, Harry

      Kinnock, Neil

      Fairgrieve, Sir Russell

      Knox, David

      Faulds, Andrew

      Lambie, David

      Field, Frank

      Lamborn, Harry

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      Lamond, James

      Fitch, Alan

      Lamont, Norman

      Fitt, Gerard

      Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

      685

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Race, Reg

      Leighton, Ronald

      Radice, Giles

      Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

      Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Rathbone, Tim

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S)

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Renton, Tim

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Rhodes James, Robert

      Litherland, Robert

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo)

      Richardson, Jo

      Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Lofthouse, Geoffrey

      Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

      Luce, Richard

      Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)

      Lyell, Nicholas

      Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Robertson, George

      Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W)

      Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Rodgers, Rt Hon William

      McDonald, Dr Oonagh

      Rooker, J. W.

      MacGregor, John

      Roper, John

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Rossi, Hugh

      McKay, Allen (Penistone)

      Rowlands, Ted

      McKelvey, William

      Royle, Sir Anthony

      MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

      Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

      Maclennan, Robert

      St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M.

      Sandelson, Neville

      McNally, Thomas

      Scott, Nicholas

      McNamara, Kevin

      Sever, John

      McTaggart, Robert

      Sheerman, Barry

      McWilliam, John

      Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

      Madel, David

      Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

      Magee, Bryan

      Shore, Rt Hon Peter

      Major, John

      Short, Mrs Renée

      Marks, Kenneth

      Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford)

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. (Dulwich)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Silverman, Julius

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Snape, Peter

      Meacher, Michael

      Soley, Clive

      Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

      Spearing, Nigel

      Mellor, David

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Squire, Robin

      Mikardo, Ian

      Stallard, A. W.

      Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

      Stoddart, David

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Stott, Roger

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)

      Strang, Gavin

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton Itchen)

      Straw, Jack

      Moate, Roger

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

      Tapsell, Peter

      Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Morris, M. (N'hampton S)

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Morton, George

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

      Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Thomas, Dr R.(Carmarthen)

      Myles, David

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Needham, Richard

      Tilley, John

      Nelson, Anthony

      Tinn, James

      Newens, Stanley

      Torney, Tom

      Newton, Tony

      Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)

      Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

      Wainwright, E.(Dearne V)

      Ogden, Eric

      Wainwright, R.(Colne V)

      O'Neill, Martin

      Waldegrave, Hon William

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster)

      Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.

      Park, George

      Waller, Gary

      Parker, John

      Walters, Dennis

      Parry, Robert

      Watkins, David

      Patten, Christopher (Bath)

      Wellbeloved, James

      Patten, John (Oxford)

      Wells, Bowen

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Welsh, Michael

      Penhaligon, David

      Wheeler, John

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      White, Frank R.

      Pitt, William Henry

      White, J. (G'gow Pollok)

      Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down)

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

      Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

      Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

      Whitlock, William

      Price, (Lewisham W)

      Wickenden, Keith

      Prior, Rt Hon James

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Pym, Rt Hon Francis

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      686

      Williams, Rt Hon A.(S'sea W)

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Williams, Rt Hon Mrs

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      (Crosby)

      Young, Sir George (Acton)

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Wilson, William (C'try SE)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Winnick, David

      Mr. Alfred Dubs and

      Woolmer, Kenneth

      Mr. John Maxton.

      Question accordingly negatived.
      It being after Ten o'clock, MR. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the order this day, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of any remaining new clauses relating to capital punishment selected by MR. SPEAKER which might be brought up.

    New Clause 19

      DEATH PENALTY FOR TERRORISM INVOLVING LOSS OF LIFE
      'As from 1st January 1983, the penalty of capital punishment shall be available to the courts as the penalty for act of terrorism involving the loss of human life.'.—[Mr. Bendall.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
      The House divided: Ayes 176, Noes 332.

      Division No. 143]

      [10.29 pm

      AYES

      Adley, Robert

      Dunn, Robert (Dartford)

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Dunnett, Jack

      Alexander, Richard

      Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

      Alison, Rt Hon Michael

      Eggar, Tim

      Ancram, Michael

      Emery, Sir Peter

      Arnold, Tom

      Eyre, Reginald

      Aspinwall, Jack

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E)

      Faith, Mrs Sheila

      Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

      Farr, John

      Bendall, Vivian

      Fell, Sir Anthony

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay)

      Finsberg, Geoffrey

      Berry, Hon Anthony

      Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

      Bevan, David Gilroy

      Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh

      Biffen, Rt Hon John

      Fry, Peter

      Biggs-Davison, Sir John

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Blackburn, John

      Goodhew, Sir Victor

      Blaker, Peter

      Gorst, John

      Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

      Gow, Ian

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

      Bowden, Andrew

      Gray, Hamish

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes

      Greenway, Harry

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Griffiths, E.(B'y St. Edm'ds)

      Bright, Graham

      Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)

      Brinton, Tim

      Grylls, Michael

      Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon

      Gummer, John Selwyn

      Brotherton, Michael

      Hamilton, Hon A.

      Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'n)

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Browne, John (Winchester)

      Hannam, John

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Hastings, Stephen

      Burden, Sir Frederick

      Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

      Butcher, John

      Hawkins, Paul

      Carlisle, John (Luton West)

      Hawksley, Warren

      Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)

      Heddle, John

      Chalker, Mrs. Lynda

      Hicks, Robert

      Chapman, Sydney

      Hill, James

      Churchill, W. S.

      Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grth'm)

      Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

      Holland, Philip (Carlton)

      Clegg, Sir Walter

      Hooson, Tom

      Cockeram, Eric

      Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)

      Colvin, Michael

      Hunt, David (Wirral)

      Cope, John

      Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

      Corrie, John

      Jessel, Toby

      Costain, Sir Albert

      Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

      Crouch, David

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Dean, Paul (North Somerset)

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Dickens, Geoffrey

      Kershaw, Sir Anthony

      Dover, Denshore

      Kimball, Sir Marcus

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      687

      Knight, Mrs Jill

      Robinson, P. (Belfast E)

      Lang, Ian

      Rost, Peter

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

      Latham, Michael

      Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

      Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

      Lee, John

      Shepherd, Richard

      LeMarchant, Spencer

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW)

      Smith, Dudley

      Luce, Richard

      Smyth, Rev. W. M. (Belfast S)

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Speed, Keith

      MacGregor, John

      Speller, Tony

      MacKay, John (Argyll)

      Spence, John

      McQuade, John

      Spicer, Jim (WestDorset)

      Marland, Paul

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Marlow, Antony

      Sproat, Iain

      Marten, Rt Hon Neil

      Stainton, Keith

      Mather, Carol

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Mawby, Ray

      Stanley, John

      Mawhinney, Dr Brian

      Steen, Anthony

      Mellor, David

      Stevens, Martin

      Miller, Hal (B'grove)

      Stewart, A. (ERenfrewshire)

      Mills, Iain (Meriden)

      Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

      Moate, Roger

      Stokes, John

      Molyneaux, James

      Tapsell, Peter

      Monro, Sir Hector

      Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

      Moore, John

      Temple-Morris, Peter

      Morgan, Geraint

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.

      Morris, M. (N'hampton S)

      Thompson, Donald

      Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

      Thorne, Neil (IlfordSouth)

      Mudd, David

      Thornton, Malcolm

      Murphy, Christopher

      Townend, John (Bridlington)

      Neubert, Michael

      Trippier, David

      Normanton, Tom

      Trotter, Neville

      Nott, Rt Hon John

      van Straubenzee, Sir W.

      Onslow, Cranley

      Vaughan, Dr Gerard

      Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.

      Viggers, Peter

      Osborn, John

      Waddington, David

      Page, John (Harrow, West)

      Wakeham, John

      Page, Richard (SW Herts)

      Walker, B. (Perth)

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Wall.Sir Patrick

      Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

      Ward, John

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Warren, Kenneth

      Percival, Sir Ian

      Wells, Bowen

      Pink, R.Bonner

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Pollock, Alexander

      Whitney, Raymond

      Porter, Barry

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Proctor, K. Harvey

      Wilkinson, John

      Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)

      Williams, D. (Montgomery)

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Ridley, Hon Nicholas

      Wolfson, Mark

      Ridsdale, Sir Julian

      Young, Sir George (Acton)

      Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)

      Mr. George Gardiner and

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Mr.Marcus Fox.

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Benyon, W. (Buckingham)

      Adams, Allen

      Best, Keith

      Allaun, Frank

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Alton, David

      Body, Richard

      Amery, Rt Hon Julian

      Booth, Rt Hon Albert

      Anderson, Donald

      Boothroyd, M iss Betty

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Bottomley.Rt Hon (M'b'ro)

      Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

      Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)

      Ashton, Joe

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Atkins, Robert (PrestonN)

      Brocklebank-Fowler, C.

      Atkinson, N.(H'gey,)

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Bagier, Gordon AT.

      Brown, R. C (N'castle W)

      Baker, Kenneth (St.M'bone)

      Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S)

      Banks, Robert

      Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

      Barnett.Guy (Greenwich)

      Buchan, Norman

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd)

      Buck, Antony

      Beith, A.J.

      Budgen, Nick

      Benn, Rt Hon Tony

      Butler, Hon Adam

      Bennett, Andrew (St'kp'tN)

      Cadbury, Jocelyn

      Benyon, Thomas (A'don)

      Callaghan, Rt Hon J.

      688

      Callaghan, Jim (Midd''t'n&P)

      Ginsburg, David

      Campbell, Ian

      Golding, John

      Campbell-Savours, Dale

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Canavan, Dennis

      Graham, Ted

      Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Carmichael, Neil

      Grimond.Rt Hon J.

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Grist, Ian

      Cartwright, John

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Channon.Rt. Hon. Paul

      Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)

      Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

      Hardy, Peter

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S)

      Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

      Coleman, Donald

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      Conlan, Bernard

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Cook, Robin F.

      Haynes, Frank

      Cowans, Harry

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Cox, T. (W'dsw'th, Toot'g)

      Heath, Rt Hon Edward

      Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill)

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

      Crowther, Stan

      Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

      Cryer, Bob

      Hogg, N. (EDunb't'nshire)

      Cunliffe, Lawrence

      Holland.S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll)

      Cunningham, G (Islington S)

      Home Robertson, John

      Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n)

      Homewood, William

      Dalyell, Tam

      Hooley, Frank

      Davidson, Arthur

      Horam, John

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'Hi)

      Howell, Rt Hon D.

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Howells, Geraint

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Huckfield, Les

      Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Deakins, Eric

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Dewar, Donald

      Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

      Dixon, Donald

      Janner, Hon Greville

      Dobson, Frank

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Dormand, Jack

      Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

      Dorrell, Stephen

      Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Hillhead)

      Douglas, Dick

      John, Brynmor

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

      Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

      Dunn, James A.

      Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)

      Dunwoody, Hon MrsG.

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Dykes, Hugh

      Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

      Eadie, Alex

      Kerr, Russell

      Eastham, Ken

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)

      Kinnock, Neil

      Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E)

      Knox, David

      Elliott, Sir William

      Lambie, David

      Ellis, R. (NED'bysh're)

      Lamborn, Harry

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      Lamond, James

      English, Michael

      Lamont, Norman

      Ennals, Rt Hon David

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Leighton, Ronald

      Ewing, Harry

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Fairgrieve, Sir Russell

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Faulds, Andrew

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Field, Frank

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      Litherland, Robert

      Fitch, Alan

      Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo)

      Fitt, Gerard

      Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

      Flannery, Martin

      Lofthouse, Geoffrey

      Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'ghN)

      Lyell, Nicholas

      Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston)

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W)

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      McCartney, Hugh

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      McDonald, Dr Oonagh

      Ford, Ben

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Forman, Nigel

      McKay, Allen (Penistone)

      Forrester, John

      McKelvey, William

      Foster, Derek

      MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

      Foulkes, George

      Maclennan, Robert

      Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd)

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M.

      Fraser, Peter (South Angus)

      McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)

      Freud, Clement

      McNally, Thomas

      Garel-Jones, Tristan

      McNamara, Kevin

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      McTaggart, Robert

      George, Bruce

      McWilliam, John

      Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

      Madel, David

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

      Magee, Bryan

      689

      Major, John

      Patten, Christopher (Bath)

      Marks, Kenneth

      Patten, John (Oxford)

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Penhaligon, David

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Pitt, William Henry

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (SDown)

      Meacher, Michael

      Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

      Mellish.Rt Hon Robert

      Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Price, C. (Lewisham W)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Prior, Rt Hon James

      Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

      Pym, Rt Hon Francis

      Miller, DrM.S. (E Kilbride)

      Race, Reg

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Radice, Giles

      Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)

      Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton Itchen)

      Rathbone, Tim

      Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

      Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S)

      Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)

      Renton, Tim

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Morton, George

      Richardson, Jo

      Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

      Myles, David

      Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)

      Needham, Richard

      Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

      Nelson, Anthony

      Robertson, George

      Newens, Stanley

      Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)

      Newton, Tony

      Rodgers, Rt Hon William

      Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

      Rooker, J. W.

      Ogden, Eric

      Roper, John

      O'Neill, Martin

      Rossi, Hugh

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      Rowlands, Ted

      Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

      Royle, Sir Anthony

      Park, George

      Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

      Parker, John

      St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

      Parry, Robert

      Sandelson, Neville

      Scott, Nicholas

      Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)

      Sever, John

      Wainwright, E. (Dearne V)

      Sheerman, Barry

      Wainwright, R. (Colne V)

      Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

      Waldegrave, Hon William

      Shersby, Michael

      Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster)

      Shore, Rt Hon Peter

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.

      Short, Mrs Renée

      Waller, Gary

      Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford)

      Walters, Dennis

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

      Watkins, David

      Silverman, Julius

      Watson, John

      Skinner, Dennis

      Wellbeloved, James

      Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)

      Welsh, Michael

      Snape, Peter

      Wheeler, John

      Soley, Clive

      White, Frank R.

      Spearing, Nigel

      White, J. (G'gow Pollok)

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Squire, Robin

      Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

      Stallard, A.W.

      Whitlock, William

      Stoddart, David

      Wickenden, Keith

      Stott, Roger

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Strang, Gavin

      Williams, Rt Hon A.(S'sea W)

      Straw, Jack

      Williams, Rt Hon Mrs (Crosby)

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Wilson, William (C'try SE)

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Winnick, David

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Woolmer, Kenneth

      Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Tilley, John

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Tinn, James

      Mr. Alfred Dubs and

      Torney, Tom

      Mr.John Maxton.

      Question accordingly negatived

    New Clause 20

      DEATH PENALTY FOR MURDER BY FIREARMS OR EXPLOSIVES
      'As from 1st January 1983, the penalty of capital punishment shall be available to the courts as the penalty for murder by means of firearms or explosives.'.—[Mr. Bendall.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
      The House divided: Ayes 176, Noes 343.

      Division No. 144]

      [10.41 p m

      AYES

      Adley, Robert

      Hawkins, Paul

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Hawksley, Warren

      Alexander, Richard

      Heddle, John

      Aspinwall, Jack

      Henderson, Barry

      Atkins, Robert (Preston N)

      Hicks, Robert

      Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E)

      Hill, James

      Bendail, Vivian

      Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

      Bevan, David Gilroy

      Holland, Philip (Carlton)

      Biggs-Davison, Sir John

      Hooson, Tom

      Blackburn, John

      Hordern, Peter

      Blaker, Peter

      Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)

      Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

      Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Jessel, Toby

      Bowden, Andrew

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Kershaw, Sir Anthony

      Brinton, Tim

      Kimball, Sir Marcus

      Brotherton, Michael

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'n)

      Knight, Mrs Jill

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Lang, Ian

      Burden, Sir Frederick

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Butcher, John

      Latham, Michael

      Cadbury, Jocelyn

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Carlisle, John (Luton West)

      Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

      Chalker, Mrs. Lynda

      Lee, John

      Chapman, Sydney

      Le Merchant, Spencer

      Churchill, W. S.

      Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW)

      Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

      Loveridge, John

      Clegg, Sir Walter

      McCusker, H.

      Cockeram, Eric

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Colvin, Michael

      MacKay, John (Argyll)

      Corrie, John

      McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)

      Costain, Sir Albert

      McQuade, John

      Cranborne, Viscount

      Marland, Paul

      Crouch, David

      Marlow, Antony

      Dean, Paul (North Somerset)

      Mather, Carol

      Dickens, Geoffrey

      Mawby, Ray

      Dover, Denshore

      Mawhinney, Dr Brian

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Miller, Hal (B'grove)

      Dunn, Robert (Dartford)

      Mills, Iain (Meriden)

      Dunnett, Jack

      Mills, Peter (West Devon)

      Eggar, Tim

      Monro, Sir Hector

      Emery, Sir Peter

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Eyre, Reginald

      Moore, John

      Faith, Mrs Sheila

      Morgan, Geraint

      Farr, John

      Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

      Fell, Sir Anthony

      Mudd, David

      Finsberg, Geoffrey

      Murphy, Christopher

      Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh

      Neubert, Michael

      Fry, Peter

      Normanton, Tom

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      Nott, Rt Hon John

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.

      Goodhart, Sir Philip

      Osborn, John

      Goodhew, Sir Victor

      Page, John (Harrow, West)

      Gorst, John

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

      Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

      Gray, Hamish

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Grieve, Percy

      Pawsey, James

      Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)

      Percival, Sir Ian

      Grylls, Michael

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Pollock, Alexander

      Hannam, John

      Porter, Barry

      Hastings, Stephen

      Proctor, K. Harvey

      692

      Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.

      Ridsdale, Sir Julian

      Thompson, Donald

      Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)

      Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)

      Thornton, Malcolm

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Townend, John (Bridlington)

      Robinson, P. (Belfast E)

      Trippier, David

      Rost, Peter

      Trotter, Neville

      Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

      van Straubenzee, Sir W.

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      Vaughan, Dr Gerard

      Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

      Viggers, Peter

      Shepherd, Richard

      Waddington, David

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Walker, B. (Perth)

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Wall, Sir Patrick

      Smith, Dudley

      Ward, John

      Speller, Tony

      Warren, Kenneth

      Spence, John

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)

      Whitney, Raymond

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Sproat, Iain

      Wilkinson, John

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Williams, D.(Montgomery)

      Stevens, Martin

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Stewart, A.(E Renfrewshire)

      Wolfson, Mark

      Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

      Stokes, John

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

      Mr. George Gardiner

      Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

      Mr. Marcus Fox.

      Temple-Morris, Peter

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S)

      Adams, Allen

      Coleman, Donald

      Allaun, Frank

      Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

      Alton, David

      Conlan, Bernard

      Amery, Rt Hon Julian

      Cook, Robin F.

      Ancram, Michael

      Cope, John

      Anderson, Donald

      Cormack, Patrick

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Cowans, Harry

      Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

      Cox, T. (W'dsw'th, Toot'g)

      Ashton, Joe

      Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill)

      Atkinson, N.(H'gey,)

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Bagier, Gordon A.T.

      Crowther, Stan

      Baker, Kenneth (St. M'bone,)

      Cryer, Bob

      Banks, Robert

      Cunliffe, Lawrence

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd)

      Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n)

      Beith, A. J.

      Dalyell, Tam

      Benn, Rt Hon Tony

      Davidson, Arthur

      Bennett, Andrew (St'kp't N)

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)

      Benyon, Thomas (A'don)

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Benyon, W. (Buckingham)

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Best, Keith

      Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Deakins, Eric

      Body, Richard

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Booth, Rt Hon Albert

      Dewar, Donald

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Dixon, Donald

      Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)

      Dobson, Frank

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Dormand, Jack

      Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon

      Dorrell, Stephen

      Brocklebank-Fowler,

      Douglas, Dick

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

      Brown, R. C (N'castle W)

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S)

      Dunn, James A.

      Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

      Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

      Buchan, Norman

      Dykes, Hugh

      Buck, Antony

      Eadie, Alex

      Budgen, Nick

      Eastham, Ken

      Butler, Hon Adam

      Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)

      Callaghan, Rt Hon J.

      Elliott, Sir William

      Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P)

      Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're)

      Campbell, Ian

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      Campbell-Savours, Dale

      English, Michael

      Canavan, Dennis

      Ennals, Rt Hon David

      Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)

      Ewing, Harry

      Carmichael, Neil

      Fairgrieve, Sir Russell

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Faulds, Andrew

      Cartwright, John

      Field, Frank

      Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

      Fitch, Alan

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Flannery, Martin

      693

      Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N)

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston)

      Litherland, Robert

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo)

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Lofthouse, Geoffrey

      Forman, Nigel

      Luce, Richard

      Forrester, John

      Lyell, Nicholas

      Foster, Derek

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Foulkes, George

      Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W)

      Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Fraser, Peter (South Angus)

      McDonald, Dr Oonagh

      Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Freud, Clement

      McKay, Allen (Penistone)

      Garel-Jones, Tristan

      McKelvey, William

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

      George, Bruce

      Maclennan, Robert

      Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M.

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

      McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)

      Ginsburg, David

      McNally, Thomas

      Golding, John

      McNamara, Kevin

      Goodlad, Alastair

      McTaggart, Robert

      Gow, Ian

      McWilliam, John

      Graham, Ted

      Madel, David

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Magee, Bryan

      Grimond, Rt Hon J.

      Major, John

      Grist, Ian

      Marks, Kenneth

      Gummer, John Selwyn

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Hardy, Peter

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      Mates, Michael

      Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Meacher, Michael

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Mellor, David

      Haynes, Frank

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Mikardo, Ian

      Heath, Rt Hon Edward

      Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

      Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)

      Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire)

      Mitchell, R.(Soton Itchen)

      Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll)

      Moate, Roger

      Home Robertson, John

      Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

      Homewood, William

      Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)

      Hooley, Frank

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Horam, John

      Morris, M. (N'hampton S)

      Howell, Rt Hon D.

      Morton, George

      Howells, Geraint

      Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

      Huckfield, Les

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Myles, David

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

      Needham, Richard

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Nelson, Anthony

      Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

      Newens, Stanley

      Janner, Hon Greville

      Newton, Tony

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

      Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

      Ogden, Eric

      Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy

      O'Neill, Martin

      (Hillhead)

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      John, Brynmor

      Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

      Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

      Park, George

      Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

      Parker, John

      Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)

      Parry, Robert

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Patten, Christopher (Bath)

      Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

      Patten, John (Oxford)

      Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Kerr, Russell

      Penhaligon, David

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Kinnock, Neil

      Pitt, William Henry

      Knox, David

      Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down)

      Lambie, David

      Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

      Lamborn, Harry

      Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

      Lamond, James

      Price, (Lewisham W)

      Lamont, Norman

      Prior, Rt Hon James

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Pym, Rt Hon Francis

      Leighton, Ronald

      Race, Reg

      Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

      Radice, Giles

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Rathbone, Tim

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S)

      694

      Renton, Tim

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Rhodes James, Robert

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

      Richardson, Jo

      Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

      Tilley, John

      Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)

      Tinn, James

      Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

      Torney, Tom

      Robertson, George

      Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)

      Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)

      Wainwright, E.(Dearne V)

      Rodgers, Rt Hon William

      Wainwright, R.(Colne V)

      Rooker, J. W.

      Wakeham, John

      Roper, John

      Waldegrave, Hon William

      Rossi, Hugh

      Walker, Rt Hon H. (D'caster)

      Rowlands, Ted

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.

      Royle, Sir Anthony

      Waller, Gary

      Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

      Walters, Dennis

      St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

      Watkins, David

      Sandelson, Neville

      Wellbeloved, James

      Scott, Nicholas

      Wells, Bowen

      Sever, John

      Welsh, Michael

      Sheerman, Barry

      Wheeler, John

      Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

      White, Frank R.

      Shore, Rt Hon Peter

      White, J. (G'gow Pollok)

      Short, Mrs Renée

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford)

      Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C (Dulwich)

      Whitlock, William

      Silverman, Julius

      Wickenden, Keith

      Skinner, Dennis

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Snape, Peter

      Williams, Rt Hon A. (S'sea W)

      Soley, Clive

      Williams, Rt Hon Mrs

      Spearing, Nigel

      (Crosby)

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Squire, Robin

      Wilson, William (C'try SE)

      Stallard, A. W.

      Winnick, David

      Stoddart, David

      Woolmer, Kenneth

      Stott, Roger

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Strang, Gavin

      Young, Sir George (Acton)

      Straw, Jack

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Mr. Alfred Dubs and

      Question accordingly negatived.

    New Clause 21

      DEATH PENALTY FOR MURDER OF POLICE AND PRISON OFFICERS
      'As from 1st January 1983, the penalty of capital punishment shall be available to the courts as the penalty for murder of a police or prison officer.'.—[Mr. Bendall.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      The House divided:Ayes 208, Noes 332.

      Division No. 144]

      [10.41 p m

      AYES

      Adley, Robert

      Hawkins, Paul

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Hawksley, Warren

      Alexander, Richard

      Heddle, John

      Aspinwall, Jack

      Henderson, Barry

      Atkins, Robert (Preston N)

      Hicks, Robert

      Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E)

      Hill, James

      Bendail, Vivian

      Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

      Bevan, David Gilroy

      Holland, Philip (Carlton)

      Biggs-Davison, Sir John

      Hooson, Tom

      Blackburn, John

      Hordern, Peter

      Blaker, Peter

      Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)

      Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

      Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Jessel, Toby

      Bowden, Andrew

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Kershaw, Sir Anthony

      Brinton, Tim

      Kimball, Sir Marcus

      Brotherton, Michael

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'n)

      Knight, Mrs Jill

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Lang, Ian

      Burden, Sir Frederick

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Butcher, John

      Latham, Michael

      Cadbury, Jocelyn

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Carlisle, John (Luton West)

      Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

      Chalker, Mrs. Lynda

      Lee, John

      Chapman, Sydney

      Le Merchant, Spencer

      Churchill, W. S.

      Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW)

      Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

      Loveridge, John

      Clegg, Sir Walter

      McCusker, H.

      Cockeram, Eric

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Colvin, Michael

      MacKay, John (Argyll)

      Corrie, John

      McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)

      Costain, Sir Albert

      McQuade, John

      Cranborne, Viscount

      Marland, Paul

      Crouch, David

      Marlow, Antony

      Dean, Paul (North Somerset)

      Mather, Carol

      Dickens, Geoffrey

      Mawby, Ray

      Dover, Denshore

      Mawhinney, Dr Brian

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Miller, Hal (B'grove)

      Dunn, Robert (Dartford)

      Mills, Iain (Meriden)

      Dunnett, Jack

      Mills, Peter (West Devon)

      Eggar, Tim

      Monro, Sir Hector

      Emery, Sir Peter

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Eyre, Reginald

      Moore, John

      Faith, Mrs Sheila

      Morgan, Geraint

      Farr, John

      Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

      Fell, Sir Anthony

      Mudd, David

      Finsberg, Geoffrey

      Murphy, Christopher

      Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh

      Neubert, Michael

      Fry, Peter

      Normanton, Tom

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      Nott, Rt Hon John

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.

      Goodhart, Sir Philip

      Osborn, John

      Goodhew, Sir Victor

      Page, John (Harrow, West)

      Gorst, John

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

      Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

      Gray, Hamish

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Grieve, Percy

      Pawsey, James

      Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)

      Percival, Sir Ian

      Grylls, Michael

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Pollock, Alexander

      Hannam, John

      Porter, Barry

      Hastings, Stephen

      Proctor, K. Harvey

      692

      Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.

      Ridsdale, Sir Julian

      Thompson, Donald

      Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)

      Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)

      Thornton, Malcolm

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Townend, John (Bridlington)

      Robinson, P. (Belfast E)

      Trippier, David

      Rost, Peter

      Trotter, Neville

      Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

      van Straubenzee, Sir W.

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      Vaughan, Dr Gerard

      Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

      Viggers, Peter

      Shepherd, Richard

      Waddington, David

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Walker, B. (Perth)

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Wall, Sir Patrick

      Smith, Dudley

      Ward, John

      Speller, Tony

      Warren, Kenneth

      Spence, John

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)

      Whitney, Raymond

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Sproat, Iain

      Wilkinson, John

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Williams, D.(Montgomery)

      Stevens, Martin

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Stewart, A.(E Renfrewshire)

      Wolfson, Mark

      Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

      Stokes, John

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

      Mr. George Gardiner

      Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

      Mr. Marcus Fox.

      Temple-Morris, Peter

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S)

      Adams, Allen

      Coleman, Donald

      Allaun, Frank

      Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

      Alton, David

      Conlan, Bernard

      Amery, Rt Hon Julian

      Cook, Robin F.

      Ancram, Michael

      Cope, John

      Anderson, Donald

      Cormack, Patrick

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Cowans, Harry

      Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

      Cox, T. (W'dsw'th, Toot'g)

      Ashton, Joe

      Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill)

      Atkinson, N.(H'gey,)

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Bagier, Gordon A.T.

      Crowther, Stan

      Baker, Kenneth (St. M'bone,)

      Cryer, Bob

      Banks, Robert

      Cunliffe, Lawrence

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd)

      Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n)

      Beith, A. J.

      Dalyell, Tam

      Benn, Rt Hon Tony

      Davidson, Arthur

      Bennett, Andrew (St'kp't N)

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)

      Benyon, Thomas (A'don)

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Benyon, W. (Buckingham)

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Best, Keith

      Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Deakins, Eric

      Body, Richard

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Booth, Rt Hon Albert

      Dewar, Donald

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Dixon, Donald

      Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)

      Dobson, Frank

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Dormand, Jack

      Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon

      Dorrell, Stephen

      Brocklebank-Fowler,

      Douglas, Dick

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

      Brown, R. C (N'castle W)

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S)

      Dunn, James A.

      Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

      Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

      Buchan, Norman

      Dykes, Hugh

      Buck, Antony

      Eadie, Alex

      Budgen, Nick

      Eastham, Ken

      Butler, Hon Adam

      Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)

      Callaghan, Rt Hon J.

      Elliott, Sir William

      Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P)

      Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're)

      Campbell, Ian

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      Campbell-Savours, Dale

      English, Michael

      Canavan, Dennis

      Ennals, Rt Hon David

      Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)

      Ewing, Harry

      Carmichael, Neil

      Fairgrieve, Sir Russell

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Faulds, Andrew

      Cartwright, John

      Field, Frank

      Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

      Fitch, Alan

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Flannery, Martin

      693

      Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N)

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston)

      Litherland, Robert

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo)

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Lofthouse, Geoffrey

      Forman, Nigel

      Luce, Richard

      Forrester, John

      Lyell, Nicholas

      Foster, Derek

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Foulkes, George

      Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W)

      Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Fraser, Peter (South Angus)

      McDonald, Dr Oonagh

      Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Freud, Clement

      McKay, Allen (Penistone)

      Garel-Jones, Tristan

      McKelvey, William

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

      George, Bruce

      Maclennan, Robert

      Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M.

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

      McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)

      Ginsburg, David

      McNally, Thomas

      Golding, John

      McNamara, Kevin

      Goodlad, Alastair

      McTaggart, Robert

      Gow, Ian

      McWilliam, John

      Graham, Ted

      Madel, David

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Magee, Bryan

      Grimond, Rt Hon J.

      Major, John

      Grist, Ian

      Marks, Kenneth

      Gummer, John Selwyn

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Hardy, Peter

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      Mates, Michael

      Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Meacher, Michael

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Mellor, David

      Haynes, Frank

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Mikardo, Ian

      Heath, Rt Hon Edward

      Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

      Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)

      Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire)

      Mitchell, R.(Soton Itchen)

      Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll)

      Moate, Roger

      Home Robertson, John

      Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

      Homewood, William

      Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)

      Hooley, Frank

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Horam, John

      Morris, M. (N'hampton S)

      Howell, Rt Hon D.

      Morton, George

      Howells, Geraint

      Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

      Huckfield, Les

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Myles, David

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

      Needham, Richard

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Nelson, Anthony

      Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

      Newens, Stanley

      Janner, Hon Greville

      Newton, Tony

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

      Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

      Ogden, Eric

      Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy

      O'Neill, Martin

      (Hillhead)

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      John, Brynmor

      Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

      Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

      Park, George

      Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

      Parker, John

      Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)

      Parry, Robert

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Patten, Christopher (Bath)

      Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

      Patten, John (Oxford)

      Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Kerr, Russell

      Penhaligon, David

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Kinnock, Neil

      Pitt, William Henry

      Knox, David

      Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down)

      Lambie, David

      Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

      Lamborn, Harry

      Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

      Lamond, James

      Price, (Lewisham W)

      Lamont, Norman

      Prior, Rt Hon James

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Pym, Rt Hon Francis

      Leighton, Ronald

      Race, Reg

      Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

      Radice, Giles

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Rathbone, Tim

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S)

      694

      Renton, Tim

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Rhodes James, Robert

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

      Richardson, Jo

      Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

      Tilley, John

      Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)

      Tinn, James

      Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

      Torney, Tom

      Robertson, George

      Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)

      Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)

      Wainwright, E.(Dearne V)

      Rodgers, Rt Hon William

      Wainwright, R.(Colne V)

      Rooker, J. W.

      Wakeham, John

      Roper, John

      Waldegrave, Hon William

      Rossi, Hugh

      Walker, Rt Hon H. (D'caster)

      Rowlands, Ted

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.

      Royle, Sir Anthony

      Waller, Gary

      Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

      Walters, Dennis

      St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

      Watkins, David

      Sandelson, Neville

      Wellbeloved, James

      Scott, Nicholas

      Wells, Bowen

      Sever, John

      Welsh, Michael

      Sheerman, Barry

      Wheeler, John

      Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

      White, Frank R.

      Shore, Rt Hon Peter

      White, J. (G'gow Pollok)

      Short, Mrs Renée

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford)

      Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C (Dulwich)

      Whitlock, William

      Silverman, Julius

      Wickenden, Keith

      Skinner, Dennis

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Snape, Peter

      Williams, Rt Hon A. (S'sea W)

      Soley, Clive

      Williams, Rt Hon Mrs

      Spearing, Nigel

      (Crosby)

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Squire, Robin

      Wilson, William (C'try SE)

      Stallard, A. W.

      Winnick, David

      Stoddart, David

      Woolmer, Kenneth

      Stott, Roger

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Strang, Gavin

      Young, Sir George (Acton)

      Straw, Jack

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Mr. Alfred Dubs and

      Divsion No. 145]

      [10.54 pm

      AYES

      Adley, Robert

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Bowden, Andrew

      Alexander, Richard

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes

      Arnold, Tom

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Aspinwall, Jack

      Bright, Graham

      Atkins, Rt Hon H.(S'thorne)

      Brinton, Tim

      Atkins, Robert (Preston N)

      Brotherton, Michael

      Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E)

      Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'n)

      Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

      Browne, John (Winchester)

      Banks, Robert

      Bryan, Sir Paul

      Bendall, Vivian

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Berry, Hon Anthony

      Burden, Sir Frederick

      Bevan, David Gilroy

      Butcher, John

      Biffen, Rt Hon John

      Butler, Hon Adam

      Biggs-Davison, Sir John

      Cadbury, Jocelyn

      Blackburn, John

      Cant, R. B.

      Blaker, Peter

      Carlisle, John (Luton West)

      Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

      Chalker, Mrs. Lynda

      695

      Channon.Rt. Hon. Paul

      Mather, Carol

      Chapman, Sydney

      Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus

      Churchill, W.S.

      Mawby, Ray

      Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

      Mawhinney, Dr Brian

      Clegg, Sir Walter

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Cockeram, Eric

      Mellor, David

      Colvin, Michael

      Miller, Hal (B'grove)

      Corrie, John

      Mills, Iain (Meriden)

      Costain, Sir Albert

      Mills, Peter (West Devon)

      Cranborne, Viscount

      Moate, Roger

      Crouch, David

      Molyneaux, James

      Dean, Paul (North Somerset)

      Monro, SirHector

      Dickens, Geoffrey

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

      Moore, John

      Dover, Denshore

      Morgan, Geraint

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

      Dunn, Robert (Dartford)

      Mudd, David

      Dunnett, Jack

      Murphy, Christopher

      Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

      Neubert Michael

      Eggar, Tim

      Normanton, Tom

      Emery, Sir Peter

      Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.

      Eyre, Reginald

      Osborn, John

      Faith, Mrs Sheila

      Page, John (Harrow, West)

      Farr, John

      Page, Richard (SW Herts)

      Fell, Sir Anthony

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Finsberg, Geoffrey

      Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil

      Fox, Marcus

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh

      Percival, Sir Ian

      Fry, Peter

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Gardiner, George(Reigate)

      Pollock, Alexander

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      Price, Sir David (Eastleigh)

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Proctor, K. Harvey

      Goodhart, Sir Philip

      Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)

      Goodhew, Sir Victor

      Ridsdale, Sir Julian

      Gorst, John

      Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      Gray, Hamish

      Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)

      Grieve, Percy

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Griffiths, E.(B'ySt. Edm'ds)

      Robinson, P. (Belfast E)

      Griffiths, Peter Portsm'thN)

      Rost, Peter

      Grylls, Michael

      Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

      Hamilton, Hon A.

      Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      Hannam, John

      Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

      Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

      Shepherd, Richard

      Hawkins, Paul

      Shersby, Michael

      Hawksley, Warren

      Silvester, Fred

      Heddle, John

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Henderson, Barry

      Smith, Cyril(Rochdale)

      Hicks, Robert

      Smith, Dudley

      Hill, James

      Smyth, Rev. W. M. (Belfast S)

      Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

      Speed, Keith

      Holland, Philip (Carlton)

      Speller, Tony

      Hooson, Tom

      Spence, John

      Hordern, Peter

      Spicer, Jim (WestDorset)

      Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)

      Spicer, Michael (SWorcs)

      Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Jessel, Toby

      Sproat, Iain

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Stanley, John

      Kershaw, Sir Anthony

      Steen, Anthony

      Kimball, Sir Marcus

      Stevens, Martin

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      Stewart, A.(ERenfrewshire)

      Knight, Mrs Jill

      Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

      Lang, Ian

      Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

      Latham, Michael

      Stokes, John

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

      Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

      Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

      Lee, John

      Temple-Morris, Peter

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M.

      Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW)

      Thompson, Donald

      Loveridge, John

      Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)

      McCusker, H.

      Thornton, Malcolm

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Townend, John (Bridlington)

      MacGregor, John

      Trippier, David

      MacKay, John (Argyll)

      Trotter, Neville

      McNair-Wilson, P. (NewF'st)

      van Straubenzee, Sir W.

      McQuade, John

      Vaughan Dr Gerard

      Marland, Paul

      Waddington, David

      Marlow, Antony

      Walker, B. (Perth)

      Marten, Rt Hon Neil

      Wall, Sir Patrick

      696

      Ward, John

      Williams, D. (Montgomery)

      Warren, Kenneth

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Watson, John

      Wolfson, Mark

      Wells, Bowen

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Whitney, Raymond

      Mr. J. F. Pawsey and

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Mr.Peter Viggers.

      Wilkinson, John

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Adams, Allen

      Dewar, Donald

      Allaun, Frank

      Dixon, Donald

      Alton, David

      Dobson, Frank

      Amery, Rt Hon Julian

      Dormand, Jack

      Ancram, Michael

      Dorrell, Stephen

      Anderson, Donald

      Douglas, Dick

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

      Dunn, James A.

      Ashton, Joe

      Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

      Atkinson, N. (H'gey,)

      Dykes, Hugh

      Bagier, Gordon A.T.

      Eadie, Alex

      Baker, Kenneth (St. M' bone)

      Eastham, Ken

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd)

      Elliott, Sir William

      Beith, A. J.

      Ellis, R (NE D 'bysh 're)

      Benn, Rt Hon Tony

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      Bennett, Andrew (St 'kp' tN)

      English, Michael

      Benyon, Thomas (A' don)

      Ennals, Rt Hon David

      Benyon, W. (Buckingham)

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Best, Keith

      Ewing, Harry

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Fairgrieve, Sir Russell

      Body, Richard

      Faulds, Andrew

      Booth, Rt Hon Albert

      Field, Frank

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      Bottomley, Peter (W 'wich W)

      Fitch, Alan

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Flannery, Martin

      Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon

      Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'ghN)

      Brocklebank-Fowler, C.

      Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston)

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Brown, R. C. (N'castle W)

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'yS)

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

      Forman, Nigel

      Buchan, Norman

      Forrester, John

      Buck, Antony

      Foster, Derek

      Budgen, Nick

      Foulkes, George

      Callaghan Rt Hon J.

      Fraser, J. (Lamb 'th, N'w'd)

      Callaghan, Jim (Midd'tn & P)

      Fraser, Peter (South Angus)

      Campbell, Ian

      Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

      Campbell-Savours, Dale

      Freud, Clement

      Canavan, Dennis

      Garel-Jones Tristan

      Carlisle, Kenneth

      Garrett, John (NorwichS)

      Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)

      George, Bruce

      Carmichael Neil

      Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

      Cartwright, John

      Ginsburg, David

      Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

      Golding, John

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S)

      Gow, Ian

      Coleman, Donald

      Graham, Ted

      Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Conlan, Bernard

      Grimond, Rt Hon J.

      Cook, Robin F.

      Grist, Ian

      Cope, John

      Gummer John Selwyn

      Cowans, Harry

      Hamilton James (Bothwell)

      Cox, T. (W'dsw'th, Toot'g)

      Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)

      Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill)

      Hardy, Peter

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      Crowther, Stan

      Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

      Cryer, Bob

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Cunliffe, Lawrence

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      Cunningham, G (Islington S)

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Cunningham, Dr J.(W 'h' n)

      Haynes, Frank

      Dalyell, Tam

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Davidson, Arthur

      Heath, Rt Hon Edward

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

      Davis, Clinton (HackneyC)

      Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L

      Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)

      Hogg, N. (EDunb't'nshire)

      Deakins, Eric

      Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll)

      697

      Home Robertson, John

      Morton, George

      Homewood, William

      Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

      Hooley, Frank

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Horam, John

      Myles, David

      Howell, Rt Hon D.

      Needham, Richard

      Howells, Geraint

      Nelson, Anthony

      Huckfield, Les

      Newens, Stanley

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Newton, Tony

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

      Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Ogden, Eric

      Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

      O'Neill, Martin

      Janner, Hon Greville

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

      Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

      Park, George

      Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Hillh'd)

      Parker, John

      John, Brynmor

      Parry, Robert

      Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

      Patten, Christopher (Bath)

      Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

      Patten, John (Oxford)

      Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

      Pitt, William Henry

      Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

      Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down)

      Kerr, Russell

      Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

      Kinnock, Neil

      Price, (Lewisham W)

      Knox, David

      Prior, Rt Hon James

      Lambie, David

      Pym, Rt Hon Francis

      Lamborn, Harry

      Race, Reg

      Lamond, James

      Radice, Giles

      Lamont, Norman

      Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Rathbone, Tim

      Leighton, Ronald

      Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S)

      Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

      Renton, Tim

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Rhodes James, Robert

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Richardson, Jo

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Litherland, Robert

      Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

      Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo)

      Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)

      Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

      Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

      Lofthouse, Geoffrey

      Robertson, George

      Luce, Richard

      Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)

      Lyell, Nicholas

      Rodgers, Rt Hon William

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Rooker, J. W.

      Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W)

      Roper, John

      McCartney, Hugh

      Rossi, Hugh

      McDonald, Dr Oonagh

      Rowlands, Ted

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Royle, Sir Anthony

      McKay, Allen (Penistone)

      Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

      McKelvey, William

      St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

      MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

      Sandelson, Neville

      Maclennan, Robert

      Scott, Nicholas

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M.

      Sever, John

      McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)

      Sheerman, Barry

      McNally, Thomas

      Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

      McNamara, Kevin

      Shore, Rt Hon Peter

      McTaggart, Robert

      Short, Mrs Renée

      McWilliam, John

      Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford)

      Madel, David

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. (Dulwich)

      Magee, Bryan

      Silverman, Julius

      Major, John

      Skinner, Dennis

      Marks, Kenneth

      Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Snape, Peter

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Soley, Clive

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Spearing, Nigel

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Squire, Robin

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Stallard, A. W.

      Meacher, Michael

      Stoddart, David

      Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

      Stott, Roger

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Strang, Gavin

      Mikardo, Ian

      Straw, Jack

      Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Miller, DrM. S. (E Kilbride)

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Mitchell, R. (Soton Itchen)

      Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

      Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

      Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)

      Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Tilley, John

      Morris, M. (N'hampton S)

      Tinn, James

      698

      Torney, Tom

      Whitlock, William

      Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)

      Wickenden, Keith

      Wainwright, E. (Dearne V)

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Wainwright, R. (Colne V)

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Wakeham, John

      Williams, Rt Hon A. (S'sea W)

      Waldegrave, Hon William

      Williams, Rt Hon Mrs

      Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster)

      (Crosby)

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Waller, Gary

      Wilson, William (C'try SE)

      Walters, Dennis

      Winnick, David

      Watkins, David

      Woolmer, Kenneth

      Wellbeloved, James

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Welsh, Michael

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Wheeler, John

      Young, Sir George (Acton)

      White, Frank R.

      White, J. (G'gow Pollok)

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Mr. Alfred Dubs and

      Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

      Mr.John Maxton.

      Question accordingly negatived.

    New Clause 27

      DEATH PENALTY FOR MURDER IN COURSE OF ROBBERY AND BURGLARY WITH OFFENSIVE WEAPONS
      'As form 1st January 1983 the penalty of capital punishment shall be available to the courts as the penalty for murder in the course of robbery and burglary which involves the use of offensive weapons.'.—[Mr. Teddy Taylor.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time:—
      The House divided: Ayes 151, Noes 331.

      Division No. 146]

      [11 07 pm

      AYES

      Alexander, Richard

      Fox, Marcus

      Atkins, Robert (Preston N)

      Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh

      Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E)

      Gardiner, George (Reigate)

      Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Bendall, Vivian

      Goodhart, Sir Philip

      Bevan, David Gilroy

      Goodhew, Sir Victor

      Blackburn, John

      Gorst, John

      Blaker, Peter

      Gray, Hamish

      Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

      Grieve, Percy

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes

      Grylls, Michael

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Brinton, Tim

      Hannam, John

      Brotherton, Michael

      Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

      Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'n)

      Hawkins, Paul

      Browne, John (Winchester)

      Hawksley, Warren

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Heddle, John

      Burden, Sir Frederick

      Hicks, Robert

      Butcher, John

      Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

      Cadbury, Jocelyn

      Holland, Philip (Carlton)

      Carlisle, John (Luton West)

      Hooson, Tom

      Chalker, Mrs. Lynda

      Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk)

      Chapman, Sydney

      Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

      Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

      Jessel, Toby

      Clegg, Sir Walter

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Cockeram, Eric

      Kershaw, Sir Anthony

      Corrie, John

      Kimball, Sir Marcus

      Costain, Sir Albert

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      Cranborne, Viscount

      Knight, Mrs Jill

      Crouch, David

      Lang, Ian

      Dickens, Geoffrey

      Latham, Michael

      Dover, Denshore

      Lawrence, Ivan

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel

      Dunn, Robert (Dartford)

      Lee, John

      Dunnett, Jack

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Eggar, Tim

      Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW)

      Eyre, Reginald

      Loveridge, John

      Faith, Mrs Sheila

      McCusker, H.

      Farr, John

      McQuade, John

      Finsberg, Geoffrey

      Marland, Paul

      Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

      Marlow, Antony

      699

      Mather, Carol

      Smith, Dudley

      Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus

      Smyth, Rev. W. M. (Belfast S)

      Mawby, Ray

      Speller, Tony

      Mawhinney, DrBrian

      Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Miller, Hal (B'grove)

      Sproat Iain

      Mills, Iain (Meriden)

      Stainton, Keith

      Molyneaux, James

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Monro.Sir Hector

      Stevens, Martin

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Stewart, A. (ERenfrewshire)

      Morgan, Geraint

      Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)

      Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)

      Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

      Mudd, David

      Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

      Murphy, Christopher

      Thompson, Donald

      Neubert, Michael

      Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)

      Normanton, Tom

      Thornton, Malcolm

      Osborn, John

      Townend, John(Bridlington)

      Page, John (Harrow, West)

      Trippier, David

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Trotter, Neville

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Vaughan, DrGerard

      Percival, Sir Ian

      Waddington, David

      Pink, R.Bonner

      Walker, B. (Perth)

      Pollock, Alexander

      Wall, Sir Patrick

      Proctor, K. Harvey

      Ward, John

      Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)

      Warren, Kenneth

      Ridsdale, Sir Julian

      Wells, Bowen

      Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Whitney, Raymond

      Robinson, P. (Belfast E)

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Rost, Peter

      Wilkinson, John

      Shaw, Michael (Scanborough)

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Shepherd, Richard

      Wolfson, Mark

      Shersby, Michael

      Silvester, Fred

      Tellers for the Ayes:

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Mr. J. F. Pawsey and

      Smith.Cyril (Rochdale)

      Mr.Peter Viggers.

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

      Adams, Allen

      Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)

      Allaun, Frank

      Carmichael, Neil

      Alton, David

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Amery, Rt Hon Julian

      Cartwright, John

      Ancram, Michael

      Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul

      Anderson, Donald

      Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

      Archer, Rt Hon Peter

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

      Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S)

      Ashton, Joe

      Coleman, Donald

      Atkinson, N.(H'gey,)

      Colvin, Michael

      Bagier.GordonA.T.

      Concannon, Rt Hon J. D.

      Baker, Kenneth (St. M'bone)

      Conlan, Bernard

      Banks, Robert

      Cook, Robin F.

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Cope, John

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd)

      Cowans, Harry

      Beith, A. J.

      Cox, T. (W'dsw'th, Toot 'g)

      Benn, Rt Hon Tony

      Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill)

      Bennett, Andrew (St'kp'tN)

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Benyon, Thomas (A 'don)

      Crowther, Stan

      Benyon, W. (Buckingham)

      Cryer, Bob

      Best, Keith

      Cunliffe, Lawrence

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Cunningham, G. (IslingtonS)

      Body, Richard

      Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n)

      Booth, Rt Hon Albert

      Dalyell, Tam

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Davidson, Arthur

      Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)

      Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli)

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd)

      Brown, R. C. (N'castle W)

      Deakins.Eric

      Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S)

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith)

      Dewar, Donald

      Buchan, Norman

      Dixon, Donald

      Buck, Antony

      Dobson, Frank

      Budgen, Nick

      Dormand, Jack

      Butler, Hon Adam

      Dorrell, Stephen

      Callaghan, Rt Hon J.

      Douglas, Dick

      Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P)

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J.

      Campbell, Ian

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Campbell-Savours, Dale

      Dunn, James A.

      Canavan, Dennis

      Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G.

      700

      Eadie, Alex

      Knox, David

      Eastham, Ken

      Lambie, David

      Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke)

      Lamborn, Harry

      Elliott, Sir William

      Lamond, James

      Ellis, R. (NED'bysh're)

      Lamont, Norman

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Ennals, Rt Hon David

      Leighton, Ronald

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

      Ewing, Harry

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Fairgrieve, Sir Russell

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Field, Frank

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Flannery, Martin

      Litherland, Robert

      Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N)

      Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

      Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston)

      Lofthouse, Geoffrey

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Luce, Richard

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Lyell, Nicholas

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Forman, Nigel

      Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W)

      Forrester, John

      McCartney, Hugh

      Foster, Derek

      McDonald, Dr Oonagh

      Foulkes, George

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Fraser, J. (Lamb'th.N'w'd)

      McKay, Allen (Penistone)

      Fraser, Peter (South Angus)

      McKelvey, William

      Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

      MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

      Freud, Clement

      Maclennan, Robert

      Garel-Jones, Tristan

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M.

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)

      George, Bruce

      McNally, Thomas

      Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

      McNamara, Kevin

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian

      McTaggart, Robert

      Ginsburg, David

      McWilliam, John

      Golding, John

      Madel, David

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Magee, Bryan

      Gow, Ian

      Major, John

      Graham, Ted

      Marks, Kenneth

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Grimond, Rt Hon J.

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Grist, Ian

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Gummer, JohnSelwyn

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Meacher, Michael

      Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)

      Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

      Hardy, Peter

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

      Mikardo, Ian

      Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith

      Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Miller, Dr M.S. (E Kilbride)

      Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

      Mitchell, Austin(Grimsby)

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Mitchell, R. (Soton Itchen)

      Haynes, Frank

      Moate, Roger

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

      Heath, Rt Hon Edward

      Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw)

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

      Morris, M. (N'hampton S)

      Hogg, N. (EDunb't'nshire)

      Morton, George

      Holland, S. (L'b'th.Vauxh'll)

      Moyle, Rt Hon Roland

      Home Robertson, John

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Homewood, William

      Myles, David

      Hooley, Frank

      Needham, Richard

      Horam, John

      Nelson, Anthony

      Howell, Rt Hon D.

      Newens, Stanley

      Howells, Geraint

      Newton, Tony

      Huckfield, Les

      Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Ogden, Eric

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

      O'Neill, Martin

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

      Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

      Janner.Hon Greville

      Park, George

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Parker, John

      Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick

      Parry, Robert

      John, Brynmor

      Patten, Christopher (Bath)

      Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

      Patten, John (Oxford)

      Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)

      Penhaligon, David

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

      Pitt, William Henry

      Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

      Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down)

      Kerr, Russell

      Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

      Kilroy-Silk.Robert

      Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

      Kinnock, Neil

      Price, (Lewisham W)

      701

      Pym, Rt Hon Francis

      Straw, Jack

      Race, Reg

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Radice, Giles

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Rathbone, Tim

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S)

      Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

      Renton, Tim

      Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen)

      Rhodes James, Robert

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Tilley, John

      Richardson, Jo

      Tinn, James

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Torney, Tom

      Roberts, Allan (Bootle)

      Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)

      Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N)

      Wainwright, E. (Dearne V)

      Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

      Wainwright, R. (Colne V)

      Robertson, George

      Wakeham, John

      Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)

      Waldegrave, Hon William

      Rodgers, Rt Hon William

      Walker, Rt Hon H. (D'caster)

      Rooker, J. W.

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.

      Roper, John

      Waller, Gary

      Rossi, Hugh

      Walters, Dennis

      Rowlands, Ted

      Watkins, David

      Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

      Wellbeloved, James

      St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.

      Welsh, Michael

      Sandelson, Neville

      Wheeler, John

      Scott, Nicholas

      White, Frank R.

      Sever, John

      White, J. (G'gow Pollok)

      Sheerman, Barry

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Sheldon, Rt Hon R.

      Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

      Shore, Rt Hon Peter

      Whitlock, William

      Short, Mrs Renée

      Wickenden, Keith

      Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford)

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Silverman, Julius

      Williams, Rt Hon A.(S'sea W)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Williams, Rt Hon Mrs (Crosby)

      Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Snape, Peter

      Wilson, William (C'try SE)

      Soley, Clive

      Winnick, David

      Spearing, Nigel

      Woolmer, Kenneth

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Squire, Robin

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Stallard, A. W.

      Young, Sir George(Acton)

      Stoddart, David

      Stott, Roger

      Tellers for the Noes:

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Mr. Alfrd Dubs and

      Strang, Gavin

      Mr.John Maxton.

      Question accordingly negatived.
      Further consideration of the Bill adjourned.— [Mr. Archie Hamilton.]
      Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be further considered tomorrow.

  Town and Country Planning
  11.20 pm
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Giles Shaw): I beg to move,
  That the draft Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications and Deemed Applications) (Amendment) Regulations 1982, which were laid before this House on 19th April, be approved.
  I understand that it will be convenient to discuss at the same time the Scottish motion,
  That the draft Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications and Deemed Applications) (Amendment) (Scotland) Regulations 1982, which were laid before this House on 26th April, be approved.
  These amending regulations, which are laid under powers contained in section 87 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980, provide for a number of changes to the fees scheme introduced in April last year. Those changes reflect our, necessarily limited, experience of the operation of fees, and respond to a number of representations from hon. Members and others that the scheme contains unintentional injustices and anomalies. We are also closing a few loopholes. We are therefore making a quick response to certain specific problems. The amending regulations are thus a discharge of my undertaking to review the scheme during its first year of operation but, given the relative novelty of the lees scheme, we have thought it right to confine changes this year to minor adjustments and alterations. Major changes at this stage would, in our view, involve disruption and upheaval on a scale that would not be justified.
  But we propose—I shall return to the point—a much more fundamental review during the year. Against that background, we are also proposing a modest across-the-board increase of 10 per cent. in the levels of all fees, with scale maxima going up by the same amount.
  There is a conflict between simplicity and equity in any system of charges, and the fees regulations are therefore characterised by some complexity. I hope that we can in due course diminish that complexity. Although there have been some difficulties about interpretation and application, especially in the period immediately after the introduction of fees, it is our impression that the scheme has on the whole worked reasonably smoothly and reasonably well.
  I wish to pay tribute to the local planning authorities which have handled the new scheme. I would not pretend that people like paying fees—it would be very odd if they did—but it seems to have been grudgingly accepted that the users of the development control system should make a contribution towards its not inconsiderable costs.
  Mr. Ivan Lawrence: Can my hon. Friend tell us how much money will be raised?
  Mr. Shaw: That reference will be made in due course.
  The 1981 regulations sought to achieve three main objectives—a fair balance of fees between different categories of development, levels of fees which reflected in broad terms the costs to planning authorities of processing different sorts of applications and levels of fees which did not have the effect of discouraging development. Although the 1981 regulations went some considerable way towards achieving those three objectives, I would not pretend that they have in practice fully met each of them. That is why we have laid the amending

  703
  regulations. It may be for the convenience of the House if I now briefly summarise the main changes embodied in the amending regulations. I hope that hon. Members will bear with me if I occasionally touch on rather complex and technical matters.
  As I have said, the amending regulations provide for a modest increase of 10 per cent. in the levels of fees, with scale maxima going up pro rata. Although there have been suggestions that the increases should be larger—some people have suggested over 50 per cent.—we concluded that it would be unjustifiable to go for any larger increase than one which would keep fees roughly constant in real terms. Fees are a comparatively recent innovation, and it would not be right at this early stage to make them considerably higher in real terms.
  I turn now to the detailed changes in the fees scheme. We have received a number of representations, not least from hon. Members, that the fees regulations bite hard on large but low-cost agricultural buildings. Although the levels of fees are related to processing costs rather than the costs of the proposed development itself, and agricultural buildings up to 465 sq m are generally a permitted development under class VI of the General Development Order, we have thought it right to respond to those representations.
  The amending regulations therefore provide that, for those agricultural buildings which do require planning permission, the first 465 sq m will be discounted when it comes to calculating fees. In my view, that is a substantial concession. It seeks to strike a fairer balance between the costs of processing applications for what can often be large and obtrusive developments in the countryside and the interests of the agricultural community.
  The National Farmers Union has made representations to me that there should be further concessions in particular to glasshouse growers. I have received a letter, which no doubt hon. Members on both sides have also received, from the chairman of the parliamentary committee of the National Farmers Union, in the opening paragraph of which he states:
  "I should like to express our thanks in the light of our previous representations for proposing a special category for agricultural buildings whereby the majority of farmers should have their planning fees almost halved."
  That is correct and it is a considerable reduction. I believe that all those in agriculture will be glad that that change has been made. However, the chairman goes on to a particular question about the glasshouse grower and refers to the differences in benefit from the lower development of half an acre or less and those of the 1 acre development or more.
  I have to accept that the calculations show that the benefit is greater for the smaller than for the larger development, but the comparison between the half-acre cost that is quoted under the new draft regulation, a saving of some 19 per cent., would have been about 28 per cent. had the 10 per cent. increase in fees been taken into account. I must also point out that the 6 per cent. increase in payment on the larger building is really a net benefit of 4 per cent. again when the 10 per cent. increase in all charges is taken into consideration.
  There are substantial benefits to the glasshouse grower in the revised regulations before the House. I have no doubt, however, that this will provide hon. Members—I
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  know some of my hon. Friends are already of this opinion—with the view that more should be done for horticulture. I therefore give the House an undertaking that we will look at this issue again during the review which I mentioned.
  It was recently brought to our attention that the present regulations also contain a wholly unintended anomaly. It is that the fees category dealing with the subdivision of dwellings into flats has no upper limit. As a result, the developer proposing to subdivide three large blocks of vandalised flats in Liverpool, known as the "Piggeries"—I see the hon. Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. Alton) in his place—faced a fee of over £6,000. Although this may be a unique case, clearly action had to be taken to deal with it.
  In the amending regulations we have placed the same upper limit on this category of fee as on the category dealing with the erection of dwellings. At the same time, we are making some more technical changes in this category to ensure that the subdivision of warehouses and the like are treated in the same way as the subdivision of dwelling houses.
  An anomaly in the other direction was the treatment of waste disposal applications. At present applications for the disposal of waste to land attract a flat rate fee of £40, but it has become clear that complicated matters of this nature can involve a substantial amount of work for planning authorities. Therefore, the amending regulations recognise that fact by providing that waste disposal applications should be treated in the same way as those for the extraction of minerals, that is at a rate of £22 for each 0·1 hectare of the site area. That will have a maximum of £3,300.
  Those are three fairly substantial changes to the regulations. Others are more technical. Arrangements for charging for reserved matters are tightened up in the amending regulations, thus closing some loopholes. At present, it is possible to frame applications for outline permission in such a way as to include details of design and external appearance, thus ensuring that a subsequent detailed application attracts a low flat rate fee. Design and external appearance normally involve local authorities in a fair amount of work and hence costs, and that minor loopnole defeats one of the objectives of the fees scheme. We are therefore closing it.
  At the same time, we are extending the scope of the regulation dealing with reserved matters to cover cases where an appeal has been made to the Secretary of State under section 37 of the 1971 Act, and cases in which land has been added to the site covered by the earlier application to provide better access. We are also amending the wording of the regulations to tighten up the "free go" arrangements, under which one revised application is allowed free within 12 months.
  At this technical level, there are also two minor but useful improvements to the present arrangements for the payment of fees for the deemed planning application which arises from any enforcement appeal made to the Secretary of State. First, we cater for the situation where someone makes an enforcement appeal, and would normally be required to pay the appropriate fee for it, at a time when he is still waiting for the local planning authority's decision on a planning application for the development cited in the enforcement notice. In those

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  circumstances, it is obviously unfair to have to pay two fees, so the amending regulations introduce an exemption from the fee for the enforcement appeal.
  Mr. David Alton: Will the Minister say what will happen when two owners of a semidetached house decide to put in an application to the local authority for an extension which will benefit both occupiers in both portions of the semi-detached house? At present, they would pay two lots of fees. Will it be possible for them to make their application and for only one fee to be paid?
  Mr. Shaw: Without detailed knowledge of the case I can only say that it would depend upon whether they are two separate hereditaments involving two separate planning applications. If it is one extension, it will be one fee. If it is two extensions, one for each half of the semidetached property, it will require two planning applications.
  Second, we take account of a provision in the Local Government and Planning (Amendment) Act which followed the initiative of my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings). As a result of that Act, the Secretary of State now has a power to quash an enforcement notice, or to dismiss an enforcement appeal, in certain specified circumstances where procedural requirements are not carried out. When that happens, there is no consideration of the deemed planning application and it is therefore entirely appropriate to refund any fee already paid. The amending regulations provide accordingly.
  The amending regulations also contain some reorganisation and amendment of the schedules and other drafting amendments. The Scottish regulations are in most respects the same as those for England and Wales but have some minor differences to reflect different circumstances north of the border. The differences are a special rate of charge for the extraction of peat, a flat rate fee for all applications for express consent to the display of advertisements and a different approach to outline applications for single dwelling houses.
  As I said, we have not sought to make fundamental changes to the fees scheme. We have only limited experience of its operation, and major alterations in, for example, the incidence of fees would not be justified at this stage. However, we propose during this year to look again, and in much more depth, at the scheme and its details and at the way in which it treats different sorts of development. To that end, the Department will be seeking the views of interested parties.
  One issue that we will be examining with particular care is that of minor modifications to existing planning permissions. A number of examples have come our way of local authorities insisting on a fresh application—and therefore another fee—for quite minor changes. It is certainly not our intention that people should be charged twice in that way. We will also be looking at a number of other matters raised by the local authority associations, developers and others.
  I commend the new regulations to the House.
  Mr. Lawrence: I hope that my hon. Friend will not sit down before he answers my question.
  Mr. Shaw: I beg the pardon of my hon. and learned Friend. It is too early to estimate with complete confidence
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  the total income for 1981–82. We expect it to be in the range of £23 million to £25 million, but we cannot yet be certain.
  11.34 pm
  Mr. Ted Graham: We shall discuss not only the amendments in the regulations before us but the original regulations. In addition, we shall review the experiences of local councils and the Government's attitude and behaviour towards the regulations and, most importantly, towards the rate support grant. The question asked by the hon. and learned Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) about the moneys received is significant in that regard.
  As the Minister said, it is about 12 months since the original recommendations to introduce the principle of charging for planning applications came before the House. On that occasion, Opposition Members opposed the principle and we intend to oppose the principle of adding to those charges. In Committee, when the Government first mentioned this seemingly simple way of cutting public expenditure and of helping the Exchequer by making councils and applicants pay, it was said that about £30 million might be raised. Indeed, the Minister and I served on that Committee and I am glad to see other Committee members in their places tonight.
  When we met about 12 months ago the Government decided that the figure that might be raised was about £38 million. We were told that, consultations had taken place and that about £38 million could be raised. In discussing the rate support grant settlements for 1981–82, the Government then indicated to local authorities that they would assume that that was the type of figure that would be raised. My first charge against the Government is one of gross incompetence in estimating the income from fees.
  Although the Minister has given us a figure of £22 million to £25 million, the local authority associations have given us a figure of between £20 million and £22 million. As a result of incompetent estimating, local authorities have been placed in a difficult position. The councils have to make up their budgets. They have used a figure given to them by the Minister. There has been a global pre-emption of about £38 million. If that sum is not received, the charges cannot be increased and the Minister cannot be asked for more. As a result, if councils have assumed they would receive about £200,000 in fees but have received only £120,000, they will have to make up the £80,000 by an internal measure, perhaps affecting social services, education or bringing about the redundancy of one or two members of the planning department.
  The Government were far too eager about launching the scheme. They paid lip service to consultation. They were warned by local authority associations that the income that they had estimated was far too high. Therefore, our first charge is incompetence. Our second charge is that, not content with landing councils with a whopping shortfall, the Government have failed to take it into account when deciding on the allowance in the 1982–83 rate support grant. I accept that more than 12 months ago the Government were entitled to the benefit of the doubt in that they genuinely believed that a certain figure could be raised. However, as they moved towards the settlement for 1982–83, it became clear from the evidence that the Minister and I have received that the income was likely to be about £22 million to £25 million. In the figures

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  produced for 1982–83, the Government have written into the current rate support grant figure an estimate of £38 million. Even with the increase, there is likely to be an income of about £23 million, £24 million or £25 million. In two years, there has been a shortfall for authorities of about £27 million. That money has to be found by the councils. In our view, that is disgraceful.
  It is not as though the Government were not told that that was likely to happen. The three associations—the Association of County Councils, the Association of District Councils, and the Association of Metropolitan Authorities—protested last year and again this year, when this year's settlement was proposed, but to no avail.
  The associations did not oppose the drafting regulations. I quote a letter that they sent me:
  "The three local authority Associations representing all local planning authorities in England and Wales welcome the drafting changes to the Regulations. However, we are concerned about the financial implications of the new scale of fees, which will involve continuing substantial losses for local authorities".
  I hope that the Minister will tell us what he intends to do, very late in the day, to redress that horrendous situation. The letter goes on:
  "In 2 years a total loss of £28·4 million will have been incurred and the Government has quite cynically and quietly imposed this added burden on local authorities."
  Whether or not that was intended, that is how the three authority associations see the situation.
  I level a third charge at the Government, and that is one of deceit. Even when they seek to impose this system of planning application charges, they deceive councils into believing that they will have an income that is palpably untrue and unattainable.
  Mr. Den Dover: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that in the past year or two the construction industry has gone through a dull patch, and that therefore the number of applications has been much lower than the Government or anyone could reasonably have expected? In the next year or two, with lower interest rates and a mood of optimism, the applications may increase considerably, and thus bring in the £38 million.
  Mr. Graham: If the depression that was suffered by the construction industry was a surprise it was a surprise only to the Government. Another factor that helped to reduce the number of applications was the amendments to the general development order. The Government should be able to see the trends that are there. They simply said to local authorities "On this level of charges, we assume that you will be able to get £38 million". The authorities are saying that in two years there has been a shortfall of about £28 million. The hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Dover) is, perhaps, right when he says that it was a bad guess. In our view, the Government did not have to guess, because they had last year's experience to guide them, but they still told the authorities that they would get £38 million, although they got only £22 million last year.
  Mr. Alton: Is it not true that what has happened is yet another unannounced cut in rate support grant to local authorities throughout the country?
  Mr. Graham: I agree with the hon. Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. Alton). The authorities say that
  "the Government has quite cynically and quietly imposed this added burden on local authorities".
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  I am certain that in many council chambers and many gatherings of local authority officers inflammatory language has been used. All that I am saying is that local councils have had this additional impost laid upon them.
  The Minister said that there had been a call for increased charges. I am told that in order to make up the shortfall the increase, instead of being 10 per cent., should have been 53 per cent. If there were a 53 per cent. increase in the fees instead of a 10 per cent. increase, there would not be a shortfall. Imagine the enormity of the charges in this early period. We would not be faced with that dilemma if the Government had been honest in their understanding of the matter, recognised the true situation and said to local authorities that they would put the matter right.
  The position is made worse because, before the charges for planning applications were brought in, a charge for building regulation applications had been imposed. Authorities were told by the Government of the rate support grant settlement for income from building regulations in 1980–81. There was a shortfall of £19 million. In 1981–82 there was a shortfall of £28 million. It is estimated that in the current year 1982–83, there will be a shortfall of £25 million.
  For building regulation fees the shortfall in three years is £72 million. When one adds the £28 million from the planning applications shortfall to the £72 million, one finds the disgraceful situation that, in addition to all the other burdens and imposts that local government has had to bear thanks to the Government, £100 million has been filched from the totals that the people of the country have been led to believe existed.
  The other charge we make is that the regulations do not take effect until 1 June. There is no excuse for the Government not bringing in the charges on 1 April. However, they will take effect on 1 June. One-sixth of the year will have passed before local authorities will have the opportunity to recoup.
  The Opposition must accept the situation as it is. That is why we have sought to protest strongly about the direct financial consequences for councils—which means ratepayers—of the way in which the Government have imposed the regulations, riding roughshod over councils and councillors. It is unacceptable that we should tolerate deception or acquiesce in this blatant financial chicanery.
  There is wide acceptance that the changes in the planning fee regulations will close a number of loopholes revealed in practice during the first year. The Minister is right. The evidence we have it is that the exercise—not merely the increases, but the attempt to put the matter right—is welcome. I am satisfied at the treatment of charges for waste disposal.
  A number of lessons have been learnt during the year. The Minister will not be unaware of this, but I want to read into the record a number of confirmations of what was said by the Opposition when the regulations first appeared earlier this year.
  The planning officer for the city of Bradford tells me that
  "in spite of the reduction in level of applications, the overall workload of the Section does not appear to have been reduced. From an administration point of view the registering process is more complex due to the checking of fees, answering of queries on fees and accounting procedures. From a professional point of view, there has been a significant increase in pre-submission

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  discussions between applicants and planning officers, with applicants wanting to know the likely outcome of an application before applying."
  Faced with the need to pay, individuals and companies, to see whether they can avoid paying, are taking up the time of the staff. There is no reduction in staff. The Secretary of State for the Environment is constantly saying to councils—although they are being given more work and the Government are taking away more money from them—that the Government still insist that councils should reduce staff.
  The metropolitan borough of Wolverhampton states in a letter to me:
  "There is a noticeable change in public attitude, requiring more staff time to answer pre-application queries and matters involving processing of applications".
  The Barnsley metropolitan borough council writes—and this is a significant point—
  "The payment of a fee no doubt deters many applicants from seeking permission and when unauthorised development is noticed or brought to the attention of the Council it is often necessary to invoke the enforcement procedure merely to obtain an application. This is particularly relevant in cases where a complaint is received and the local Ombudsman could become involved if no action is taken.
  It is considered that the collection of fees is in no way helpful to the planning control process, which is already complex and resented by many prospective developers."
  Let there be no doubt that for fundamental reasons the Opposition remain opposed to the whole philosophy of charging for planning applications. We regard planning as a community obligation. To make individuals and developers pay reveals and underlines the Government's misunderstanding of the nature of planning legislation that has been developing in this country for more than 150 years.
  The purpose of planning restrictions is to protect the community generally. The planning system is not a service for the individual applicant. It is designed to benefit the general public. Experience shows that once charges were known to be about to be brought in a flood of applications were made before the 31 March 1981 deadline This must have affected the total for last year. The Opposition stand by the principle that the built environment is shaped by and for the benefit of the community as a whole, not for companies or corporations. Tonight's measure is a second bite at the cherry. To propose 10 per cent. more towards bridging the gap that was created by the sheer dishonesty of the Government is an outrage that will be deeply resented by beleaguered councillors of all political persuasions. The Government show a total disregard for the views of the associations and a contempt for local government that we have come to expect.
  Other vital community services will be trimmed to offset this deliberate stealing of already reduced rate support. Above all, the Government show no regard for the concept that our environment should not be put up for the highest bidder but should be preserved, directed and paid for by the community. For that reason I ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to join me in the Lobby tonight and vote against these regulations.
  11.53 pm
  Mr. Peter Mills: I shall not follow the line taken by the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Graham). Some of the words that he used, such as "outrage", "dishonest" and "contempt", are surprising. There is usually some exaggeration when in Opposition, but not as much as that.
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  I declare an interest. I welcome the regulations. They will benefit agriculture, and we are grateful for the changes. They are important concessions.
  I bring to the attention of the House—the Minister briefly mentioned it—the problem of the glasshouse growers. There has been no easement for them. My party's sub-committee on horticulture is anxious about the matter and we must make our representations to the Minister tonight. My hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. Wells) is in the Chamber and if he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, he will outline the problems of the glasshouse industry far better than I can.
  I ask the Minister to reconsider the problems of the industry. To illustrate them, I quote from the brief given to me by the National Farmers Union:
  "The evidence provided to the NFU by its members during last year indicates that most developments were in the size range ½ to 1 acre. A grower replacing or erecting new glass covering ½ acre will under the new draft regulations save some £200, a saving of 19 per cent. over the fees in the 1981 regulations; at the 1 acre level he would face an increase in fees of £112, which is 6 per cent. more than he would pay under the present scheme. This compares very unfavourably with the 40–50 per cent. saving to agriculture in general."
  That is it in a nutshell. Therefore, the Government must look at the question of horticulture again. Bearing in mind the pressures from which the horticulture industry is suffering at present because of energy problems and so on, they should not place another burden on its shoulders. We must ease the burden on the horticulture and glass house industry rather than increase it.
  Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith: The view that my hon. Friend has just expressed is strongly endorsed by horticulturists in the East Sussex and Kent county agriculture committee.
  Mr. Mills: I am sure that it is right as there are many glass house owners in that area. My hon. Friend knows from practical experience of the problems of the horticulture industry.
  There are practical reasons why there should be some easement for horticulture and glass house growers. In their planning applications, not a lot of work is envisaged, and they are usually of standard or set designs. Very few take place each year, and most of them relate to existing nursery sites. In addition, there are no appeals, so this is not a costly business. Those are practical reasons why there should be some easement.
  I hope that the Minister will consider this matter again, because it is essential that next year the horticulture and glass house industry should have some easement of its problems.
  11.56 pm
  Mr. David Alton: I am glad that the hon. Member for Devon, West (Mr. Mills) has raised the problems that are now being faced by the glass house and horticulture industry in many parts of Britain. I shall return to that point later in my remarks, particularly as it affects the Isle of Wight. Many hon. Members will appreciate that my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Ross) has raised this matter with the Minister, but because of ill health he is unable to be present.
  Hon. Members can be forgiven for feeling that we are perhaps treading down a path that we have been down before. I am sure that hon. Members will recall that in July 1980, when we were discussing the Local Government,

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  Planning and Land Act, I and 20 other hon. Members called a Division on this matter. In March 1981, we pursued the matter again, and the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Graham) had my support then, when at a very late hour we discussed the fees and the way in which they affect planning, individual householders and local authorities.
  Tonight I wish to support much of what the hon. Member for Edmonton has said. His language was sometimes colourful, but that can be forgiven because there is much anger and resentment in many local authorities about the fact that these decisions were taken without the wholehearted support—indeed, against the opposition—of many local authorities and local authority associations whose views were sought but not listened to.
  Last year, when the regulations currently in force were introduced, I, like Liberals on all previous occasions, was opposed to fees for planning applications, believing that they were an infringement of basic civil liberties. I said:
  "It is ludicrous and a travesty of justice that individuals should be charged for restrictions which are designed to safeguard the people as a whole".—[Official Report, 3 March 1981; Vol. 1000, c. 238.]
  I pleaded then for an improvement in the way in which we planned our communities and unashamed spending by the community for the benefit of the whole communtiy.
  A year later, even with the refinements that the Minister has announced tonight, the system is no less ludicrous. That sentiment was reiterated at the Town and Country Planning Association's annual development control seminar at Warick university on 15 and 16 April this year. Gathered there were town planners, councillors and other local government representatives. They argued that, even if the planning fees could be worked without undue problems, they should not be applied.
  Coupled with that underlying principled objection is the additional factor mentioned by the hon. Member for Edmonton that the fees estimated by the Government to raise £38 million realised only £25 million. The shortfall of £13 million has been lost as yet another unannounced cut in the rate support grant. This is a smokescreen designed to mask another crude reduction in local government spending.
  One of the architects' groups has stated:
  "It concerns the group that it is a common misconception that local authorities benefit from the imposition of planning charges. It should be made more clear that local authorities merely act as agents for central government in what is the collection of a crude tax. It is certainly not generally understood that the income received by a local authority is deducted from the direct block grant."
  The principled objections remain. Many harmful effects are now being felt which will not be ironed out even with the minor alterations proposed by the Minister tonight. The town planners feel that the fees poison relations between applicants and planning authorities and increase the negative aspect of planning. As one official of the Royal Town Planning Institute put it to me, the public outcry is equal to that which occurs when museum charges are suggested. He believes that planning should be for the benefit of all and paid for by all.
  The House-Builders Federation remains opposed to the fees. It says that there is no doubt that the fees are wholly unjustifiable in principle and that the private sector is
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  being forced to shoulder the first of a series of annual fee increases to subsidise a thoroughly inefficient planning system.
  Turning, perhaps unusually for me, to the farming population, I would welcome, with the NFU, the exemption for agricultural buildings announced by the Minister if only it were a universal exemption. However, even this glimmer lights up an anomaly that a divisive system causes. Speaking with the authority of my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight, who regrets his absence through ill health, I can say that no glasshouses are being built on the Isle of Wight. As the NFU points out, far from being substantially helped, those with average buildings covering half an acre to 1 acre will pay 19 per cent. less and those with buildings covering more than an acre 6 per cent. more. The costs do not reflect the work involved, for most glasshouses are standard and merely replace defunct houses. The fees are divisive between one type of farming and another. They do nothing to help our horticulturists compete with subsidised Dutch growers.
  On the home front, where I feel more at ease, the small house owner must save up for his front extension—one anomaly among others to which the southern region group of the ARIBA has drawn attention. The group says that even if two adjoining house owners put in a full application for a joint development of linked garages or porches, they will have to pay twice because the fee is related to the dwellings. Another example is a householder with two cars who builds a double garage and pays one fee whereas the owners of two semi-detached houses could build a double garage housing two cars, but both would be required to pay full fees.
  Admittedly, some of the more obvious peculiarities have been ironed out in the new regulations but some iniquities remain. I am grateful for the Minister's assurance that he will continue to review some of the oddities that have emerged in the enforcement of the regulations. The architects say that there are sufficient problems to indicate that the best interests of good planning are not being met in many situations. They claim that their view that the standard of architechural design was bound to venture on the safe or mundane has been justified over the last year.
  The National Federation of Self-Employed and Small Businesses says that it sees the thin of the wedge in a series of annual increases crippling to the small business man. It feels that it has to shoulder costs that would otherwise have been shared by the whole community.
  Even those who are purportedly in favour of the regulations and the amendments favour the increase in fees to counteract the Government's clawback in the RSG settlement. They operate on the basis that local government should not incur an overall loss for operating a Government scheme. I agree that they should not suffer, but it is wrong to use this as an argument that the fees should be increased. Because the Government steal the wherewithal for services from local authorities, they should not, in turn, as converted criminals, double tax some members of the public. Planning is a right that should remain unfettered from these fees. I therefore oppose the regulations.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Ernest Armstrong): This is short debate and the Front Bench Members are hoping

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  to catch my eye again at 12.30 am. I say that as a warning to those who wish to speak so that we can get in as many speeches as we can.
  12.6 am
  Mr. Michael Spicer: There will be great relief, not to say rejoicing, in the Vale of Evesham tomorrow morning when people wake up to discover that the Minister has said that he will look again at the fee structures as they apply to horticulture.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Devon, West (Mr. Mills) has said it all, but, when the Minister comes to reexamine the matter—it is clearly important that he does, as he recognises—perhaps he will bear in mind two points about horticulture. The first point, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Devon, West, is that the industry has been suffering greatly recently. This is largely due to its relative position vis-à-vis its Dutch competitors because of energy subsidies and VAT. I hope that the Minister will bear in mind the general position of the industry.
  My second point relates rather more specifically to the regulations. Will the Minister bear in mind the fact that the glasshouse element in horticulture has a low value of production in ratio to the acreage of the glasshouse? Therefore, there are special considerations affecting the industry that merit the Minister's consideration. He seems to recognise this and I look forward to his being able to modify the regulations as they apply to horticulture.
  12.8 am
  Mr. Peter Griffiths: I shall refer to a different aspect from that which interests most of my hon. Friends. I refer to the changes to regulation 7, dealing with the opportunity to submit a second application in one year, without payment of a second fee. The widening of the application of this regulation, I assume, will be generally welcomed in the sense that it is presumably designed to improve the situation when genuine applications are being made and then modified according to circumstances.
  The Minister may well recall that I wrote to his Department earlier this year on a problem that I felt was arising, particularly in my constituency, but I imagine in other urban areas as well, of repeated and vexatious planning applications. In these, an individual, knowing well that a particular application causes alarm and concern to his or her neighbours, repeats this process, largely to gain notoriety or to strike back for imagined wrongs.
  The introduction of the fee for planning applications, whatever its merits or demerits, had one great advantage: it was a marked disincentive to making planning applications that were known to be unacceptable. The problem is that when an application of this sort is made, those who wish to object have to take action to object on each separate occasion. If they do not happen to note that a new application has been made, the planning committee may assume that there are no objections. I have found that it is not considered proper for a local planning committee to carry forward objections to a particular proposal from one application to another, so they have to be made on each occasion.
  I regret that at the same time the Minister has chosen to widen the operation of regulation 7, he has not sought to provide powers whereby local authorities might deal effectively with vexatious applications. The regulation as
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  it stands—it has not really been changed this year—is an open invitation to a vexatious planner or would-be planner to introduce a second application just for the sheer hell of it. That matter should be given active consideration in the near future, particularly in urban areas.
  12.10 am
  Mr. Richard Alexander: I do not want unnecessarily to add to the burden of the Minister, but I do not regard the regulations favourably.
  I was initially doubtful about the wisdom of charging for planning applications, but I went along with it because I believed that the contribution could be useful to local government revenue.
  But what we have here is what I feared; a complicated rigmarole covered in a great deal of verbiage and worthy of the sort of regulations that builders and developers had to contend with and live their lives by in the aftermath of the last war. Now, every solicitor, estate agent and architect will need a copy of the regulations by his side whenever he tries to run his business. He will also need a slide rule to help him out. Every town hall will have dozens of copies, and clerks will gleefully reject planning applications because they have been submitted with a. fee appropriate to paragraph 2(iii) rather than paragraph 2(iv) of part II of schedule I to the regulations.
  It is the layman's nightmare and the professional man's cause to look up the exact terms of an insurance policy. I regret that a Conservative Government are putting through regulations of such complexity and burdening the community in this mariner. We promised simpler government and less government. When one sees regulations such as these, one begins to doubt whether that has been offered in this instance.
  I had hoped to support the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Devon, West (Mr. Mills) about the glasshouse industry, particularly with regard to Nottinghamshire. The point has been well covered, the hour is late, and I do not intend to repeat what he said. But while we are discussing the regulations, I should like to express my disapproval of the fact that the fees, which are apparently increasing by 10 per cent. in less than a year, are not to be returnable in the event of a planning refusal. Where fees run into thousands of pounds, it is a burden that the building industry and the developer ought not to have to carry. The developer may not only lose his application, he may lose his fee, too. He also has to apply for development somewhere else, involving a new fee. We did say, and do say, that we are helping the smaller builder and the smaller developer. If we make fees of this size non-returnable we make the risk of his continuing in business and trying to develop unacceptably high. I am sorry to speak in those terms. I hope that my hon. Friend will accept my remarks in the spirit in which they are made. I urge the introduction of early amending legislation along those lines so that we may help the planning, developing and building worlds a great deal more than we have done hitherto.
  12.15 am
  Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: I begin by declaring an interest. I am the owner of land in an area in which significant developments are taking place. Furthermore, I think that I was the only Conservative Member to vote against this proposal when it was introduced last year. My views have not changed in the

  715
  light of the experience that we have had of the operation of this unhappy brainwave of the Department since it was introduced.
  I do not go all the way with the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Graham) in his strictures. He spoilt a good case by speaking rather too strongly of the Department. He dwelt on the shortfall in the anticipated revenue to local authorities, but for the best part of his speech he criticised the impact of this imposition. I shall support the hon. Gentleman if he presses this issue to a Division. I believe that I was right to oppose the proposal last year.
  I recognise that where building regulations are concerned the local authorities are providing a service. There is no uncertainty about whether the service will be provided and they are entitled to charge a fee, but a planning application is an entirely different matter. Planning regulations are a restriction of the rights of property of the individual. I am not trying to say that that is a reason for scrapping all planning legislation. I entirely support such legislation because I recognise the need for it. But it is not right that entrepreneurs and householders, who, for the most part, initiate planning applications, should have to bear this tax.
  I join my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Mr. Alexander) in saying that it is amazing that a Conservative Government should have introduced this wretched measure. We are in favour of helping householders and we are in favour of helping small builders and entrepreneurs, but this is a tax on home owners and on enterprise, which has already had the effect of limiting the way in which developers seek opportunities to put land to its optimum use.
  I feel sure that, with the passage of time, it will be recognised that the imposition of these charges was a mistake and that they will be repealed altogether. If they are not repealed altogether, I feel that they will be very much reduced. This is something that will have to happen. I do not favour people being able to submit frivolous applications without proper consideration or preparation, thereby putting local authorities to a great deal of unnecessary work. I would not object to a charge of £20, perhaps, for an amendment to a house or garage, or even a charge of £100 for applications in respect of an acre of land or more, but where the charges run into four figures they deter enterprise, and they are having that effect. I most sincerely ask my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State to look again at the way that this tax is being applied and to recognise that, on balance, it would be better to return to the House and say that the regulations should be withdrawn in their entirety.
  12.18 am
  Mr. John Wells: I cannot support my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir B. Rhys Williams) in some of his strictures. The running of a planning department is costly and it is not unreasonable that those who are getting a financial or amenity benefit from gaining planning permission should pay something rather than the great body of ratepayers having to support them.
  I reiterate the grief that has been expressed in many parts of the House about the division that has been created between those who are engaged in agriculture. Horticulture has always been viewed in the House as an
  716
  integral part of agriculture, yet my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary is differentiating between agriculture and horticulture. That is not good enough. I know that the regulations cannot be amended, so I shall not support the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Graham) if he presses the issue to a Division.
  However, I hope that my hon. Friend will reconsider the matter sympathetically. He has heard moving pleas from West Devon, Derbyshire, East Grinstead, Maidstone and even darkest Liverpool. We are all aware that one third of the food that we eat is of horticultural origin both in terms of value and volume. Horticulture is an integral part of agriculture and I deplore the division that has been created in the industry by my hon. Friend.
  12.20 am
  Mr. Neil Thorne: I am not so surprised as the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Graham) about the differences in the original estimate and the yield. Clearly, with a measure such as this there are so many imponderables that it is impossible to be precise. The hon. Gentleman partly hit upon the solution in that there were an enormous number of applications to beat the deadline last year and no doubt that will be partly ironed out this year.
  I, too, must declare an interest. I am worried that an increase of 10 per cent. is proposed, and should have hoped that the increase could be nearer 6 per cent. as I would have expected it to be spent mainly on salaries and the Government expect a settlement of that order. Therefore, I regard a higher estimate as inflationary, particularly as an efficiently run Department ought more or less to pay its own way. Therefore, if it is to receive an extra 10 per cent. in revenue, one would expect it to be tempted into spending 10 per cent. more on its services, and this, I believe, would be wrong.
  I disagree with the hon. Member for Edmonton about the number of people now seeking more advice before submitting applications. In my experience, if people were acting prudently they always went into the matter in great detail before submitting applications, and the larger developers have always been at great pains to withdraw an application if they knew that it would not be approved. There is usually great reluctance among developers actually to receive a refusal for a substantial development. Therefore, they did all that they possibly could, but if they felt that if was impossible to persuade the authority to grant approval, they have always withdrawn the application. I believe that the prudent small developer, too, including the private person wishing to add an extension to his property, has had the same motive in mind. People do not like to receive a refusal if they can possibly help it. The consultation process on the submission of a planning application has always been an important ingredient and I do not think that it is any more so today then it has been in the past.
  I think that one intention of the new system was to reduce the number of planning applications made, as some people tended to try to swamp the planning authority by making a large number of applications for the same site in the hope that one might be approved. The measure has, I think, gone a long way towards resolving that, as I think that the public are now far more careful and selective in submitting applications than they used to be. I have known as many as 12 applications to be made at the time for one site in the hope that something would come out of it. That

  717
  has been achieved by slight amendments of plans. The measure has reduced that and I welcome the reduction because I believe that planning is a positive matter which should not be conducted in the form of a lottery.
  I am concerned, however, that we still seem to have made no provision to deal with the dilatory local authority. I had hoped that a way could be found to ensure that value for money was given to those who now have to pay the fees. In every avenue of life where fees are paid, those paying the fees expect some form of service and as part of that service they expect their applications to be dealt with promptly and diligently.
  In my own professional life, I have known a number of local authorities, many of them in country districts, which have been most unhelpful to developers, particularly if they were represented by professional people who were not local. I found that they were inclined to delay applications on every possible excuse. There should be some penalty for a local authority that does not deal with applications quickly and diligently. Where the behaviour of the local authority has been such that the fees have not been earned I believe that there should be a right of appeal to the Minister, who should have the power to reduce the fees.
  Mr. Graham: Does the hon. Member also agree that where the member of the public or the developer has acted in an inordinately lengthy and frustrating way he should be asked to pay more?
  Mr. Thorne: I believe that that was covered when it was said that some local authorities asked for amendments and alterations and claimed an extra fee. I think that local authorities already have the power to look after their own interests. I am much more concerned that those who pay the fees do not have a similar opportunity. I think one should be fair. If the local authority is completely unreasonable, it should be within my hon. Friend's power to reduce or cancel the fees. That would concentrate the minds of dilatory local authorities. There are only a few; by and large planning is dealt with professionally and the majority of planning officers and committees try to give a reasonable service, but that still does not alter the fact that others do not. This is one way in which they could be made to mend their ways.
  12.26 am
  Mr. Donald Dewar: Those of us who have followed the debate with some attention will not have forgotten that there is also a Scottish order. I hope that I am not trespassing on anyone's tolerance, and certainly not that of the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Pudsey (Mr. Shaw), if I raise one or two Scottish matters. This is not the first occasion on which the Minister has had to stand in as a surrogate for the Scottish Office and I hope that he has been reasonably briefed. I see the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, East (Mr. Stewart) lurking by his side; it may well be that he can fill any gaps.
  On a general and preliminary point, I have seldom seen a Government measure which has received such a frosty reception from Government Back-Benchers [Interruption.] It seems that I should review my phraseology. I do not believe that the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, East is lurking; I think he is skulking and glad to have no part in the debate, because the measure has received almost universal condemnation. "An unhappy
  718
  brainwave", is I believe, the kindest thing that any Conservative Member has managed to say about it. Most of them judged it much less charitably. It was regarded with personal distaste by one hon. Member and dismissed as a tax on enterprise and owners by another.
  I accept that the Minister is only tinkering with the structure, and he has said that there will be a fundamental review. I hope that he will pay attention not only to the eloquent and special pleading of the horticulture industry, which has been well represented tonight, but to the broader matters of principle, the justification for charging for planning applications and the effect upon local government finance in Scotland as in England. I take it that it hardly needs confirmation—no doubt the Minister will correct me if I am under a misapprehension—that there will be a similar review in Scotland carried out independently by the Scottish Office. There is a danger when dealing with regulations north of the border similar to those south of the border, of the review tending to miss out Scottish aspects. I hope that that will not happen.
  The minor amendments to the structure are welcome. No one will get very excited about the change to paragraph 4(b) of the schedule, which makes a special rate for
  "The winning and working of peat"
  to differentiate between peat and other minerals. That has a good Scottish ring to it and we do not quarrel with it. A single dwelling house owner will pay a fee of £44, instead of £40, irrespective of area. That is important, because in Scotland we had the ludicrous position whereby one paid a fee of £40 for a site measuring 0·1 hectare, but if one had a house on a larger site of, say, 0·4 hectare the fee was multiplied four times. It is sensible to remove that provision and it will be of some help to the individual who is building a house for his own occupation. There are similar useful minor amendments.
  I wish to consider briefly some of the points of principle that are involved, many of which have been referred to in the debate. I support my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Graham) in saying that we should not have the charging system at all. I agree with that if there is public scrutiny it will be an inhibition of ownership. There is no doubt about that. We maintain that there should be some inhibition for the public good, but it is a little anomalous that we should ask the developer to pay for the scrutiny, which is not carried out at his behest but is forced upon him because it is necessary to control and regulate building development. In theory, there is little case—certainly in Conservative theory as we have heard it this evening there is even less case—for that form of planning charge.
  The method that has been used is not only bureaucratic—there have been eloquent protests about that—but rather strange and inconsistent. I do not wish to relive the battles of earlier today, but the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and I have been locked together in a room considering the Civic Government (Scotland) Bill for what seems to be many hours. It is interesting that we have just written into schedule 1 to that Bill a system of site advertisement. A fee will be charged by the local authority in that connection, but the Government saw no benefit in trying to stipulate the fees. They have left a fairly wide measure of discretion to the local authority and merely said that fees will be charged.
  If we compare that with schedule 2 to the 1981 regulations, which are now being repealed by a replacement provision in the new Scottish regulations,

  719
  there were many problems with variable fees set at between £10 and £40 for site advertisements. There is now a set fee, which is apparently an attempt to average out the costs, of £22. Not only do we object to the principle of those charges, but I cannot understand why we should have a scale of charges when dealing with similar planning phenomena whereas a different approach has been taken by Ministers in this case.
  I contend that the proposal is theoretically wrong and in practice objectionable. I do not know the position south of the border, but I took the trouble to check with Glasgow district council, which is unhappy about the impact of the charges on the administrative burden that has fallen upon its planning department. The Secretary of State for Scotland maintains a merciless vendetta—certainly the energy that he puts into the campaign justifies such a term—against local government employment and is constantly preaching the need to cut local authority jobs. He talks not about creating unemployment in the public sector but about fitter, leaner and more efficient local government. However, the effect is at the end of the unpleasant and ever-increasing dole queues.
  I am told by Glasgow district council—it is a small matter but significant when one considers the Government's policy—that it has had to employ two further technicians and one administrative assistant in order to cope with the administrative burden. It has spent about £5,000 to reorganise the office and install safety precautions, because money is now changing hands over the counter in planning departments. Because at the end of the year we are changing all the scales of charges, the council will be put to the added expense of printing new guidance notes. This may seem to be a comparatively minor matter and small beer, but it is of significance and it is an additional burden that we could well do without.
  The most important point, and the reason why so much bad theory has been imported even from the Minister's point of view, is financial expediency. The Government have seized the opportunity, as has been said by several hon. Members, to cut the rate support grant substantially and to say to local authorities "Do not worry about it, lads. It is not really a cut in your ability to employ resources to meet services because you will be able to recoup the loss from the rate support grant from the revenue from the fees as they come in".
  The question has been raised from the Government Benches as to what has come from England. The estimate is £23 million to £25 million which is very much short of the £38 million downward adjustment in the rate support grant which I understood was brought in.
  I should like the Minister to give us the Scottish figures. The figures there are more modest, but the sum is still significant. The rate support grant was cut by £2 million to make room for the alternative financing through this charging system. I do not know what has been raised in Scotland. In Glasgow it was reckoned that in a full year about £200,000 was taken in. If that is right, then in Scotland there will again be a considerable gap. There is certainly a saving from the Minister's point of view because the rate support grant has been cut by £2 million, but there will be a large shortfall from the local authorities' point of view because the charges are not producing that £2 million. The result will be, by the back door, another cut in local authority spending and another deterioration
  720
  in the services which are already under insupportable pressure because of the policies being followed by the Scottish Office and the Treasury.
  Mr. Alexander: Would it not help to recoup some of that money if Glasgow district council decided not to employ all those extra people, whose only additional job is to take money over the counter, remembering that there is no extra work involved apart from that?
  Mr. Dewar: There is a considerable amount of extra work. I understand that the hon. Member is a solicitor. Even in the modest way in which solicitors' offices operate, if they start taking money over the counter, say, through a building society agency, often they have to institute accountancy checking and security methods which are demanding of staff time. In view of the scale and the complicated range of charges which have been introduced under these regulations during the last year or so, obviously there will be an impact upon the staff requirements of a major planning department like Glasgow which is dealing with more than 3,000 applications during a year. Therefore, I do not accept that point.
  I would not make too much of it, but there has been the requirement, although it has to some extent been simplified, to carry out a great deal of measuring. It may well be that the charging will depend on the measuring of site areas.
  In any event, the information I want from the Minister is the extent of the shortfall between the expected revenue and the rate support grant cut, and what he intends to do about it in the coming year and in future years. It is wrong for him to allow that situation to continue if he is genuine in saying that this is not a form of cutting local authority spending power but a substitution where a situation of balance and equality should result at the end of the day. If, as we suspect, both in England and in Scotland there is a gap, we want assurances that steps will be taken in future and, indeed, in the present financial year to ensure that we do not suffer any further from this mishap, if mishap it be.
  I want to give the Minister every chance to deal with the anger and sarcasm of his own supporters. They certainly threw up a large number of prickly points for him to deal with. I hope that he will give particular attention to the Scottish situation, particularly the financial implications. The scheme is not cost-effective. It is of marginal relevance to the running of an efficient planning system and it is counter-productive in the sense that it has built-in waste and bureaucracy of a kind that no one wants.
  The House-Builders Federation in England has made representations to colleagues in the Liberal Party. In the last sentence of his letter its land and planning officer says:
  "There is no doubt that the fees are wholly unjustified in principle and that the private sector is being forced to shoulder the first of a series of annual fee increases to subsidise a thoroughly inefficient planning system."
  I am not sure that this is a thoroughly inefficient planning system, but I am clear that the private sector has a genuine grievance, mirrored in the public sector, and that in the condemnation of the initiation of this charging system there is total unanimity in local government, in the private building industry and right across the board.
  The Minister owes all hon. Members the assurance that he will look at the need for fundamental changes and possibly the sweeping away of the whole system when he considers the results of the review that he has promised in the coming financial year.
  12.42 am
  Mr. Giles Shaw: May I first respond to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) in relation to the Scottish matters that he raised? I can confirm that a review will be undertaken in Scotland similar to that being undertaken in England and Wales. I can also confirm that the income in Scotland for the current year is expected to be pretty close to the estimated £2 million. With regard to the forthcoming year, while estimates at this stage must invariably be rough, the expectation is that the figure will be £2·2 million and that that too will be raised.
  The hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Graham), as I expected, laid greatest emphasis in his remarks on the failure, as he put it, to live up to the estimates in relation to the performance of the fees. I have to accept that in relation to the estimates put in, as the House is well aware, a significant shortfall has occurred in the first year of operation. It is an open secret that the levels of fee prescribed in the 1981 regulations were estimated to produce about £37 million. Against that figure the shortfall is significant. As I told my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence), we estimate the range to be of the order of £23 to £25 million on this year.
  Let me offer the House an explanation as to why that has occurred. First, as the House will know, the very fact of fees being introduced for the first time resulted in a substantial bunching of applications made to the planning authorities before the fees were introduced. We expected that, but we were not able to anticipate the scale on which that distorted the subsequent planning applications that were made.
  Secondly, it is certainly true that more applications than we estimated were of a kind that were exempt from fees. That particularly applies to those made as a result of an article 4 direction and those involved in conservation areas.
  Thirdly, as the House will know, we took steps earlier on to amend the general development order and thus exempted about 50,000 planning applications from entering the system. The absolute amount of smaller applications that came into the fee were omitted from the system. As I said, we estimate that the outcome will be of the order of £23 million to £25 million for the year 1981–82. We cannot, even at this stage, be completely clear as to what the final income yield will be.
  Given those important caveats, it looks as though the income for 1982–83, having made allowances for what we now know is the performance of the fee system, will be of the order of £27 million to £29 million. Therefore, the prospects are for a further shortfall in 1982–83.
  In my opening remarks I referred to the fact that, given the prospect of recovering the total shortfall, a significant increase in planning fees, of the order of 50 per cent., would be required. The recommendation before the House tonight is that the increase be 10 per cent. That is because of the general level of the development industry. In addition, given the relative novelty of the fee system, it would be unwise to become involved in a major increase in fees. However, the shortfall affects the rate support grant. The implication of the level of the increase combined with the estimated level of shortfall will be a matter for early discussion with the local authority associations and I undertake that such discussions will take place.
  Mr. Graham: The Minister said that the shortfall could be made up by an increase larger than 10 per cent.—53 per cent. was estimated—and has pointed out why that is, in practical terms, a non-starter. However, may I take it that the shortfall estimated by the authorities in the first and second years could amount to £25 to £28 million? Will the discussions cover how the rate support grant can take that shortfall into account in a future settlement?
  Mr. Shaw: I take the hon. Gentleman's point. I cannot commit myself here and now to the terms of the discussions. However, I assure him that the effect of the shortfall in the two successive years will be a matter for discussion with the local authority associations. I cannot prejudge the outcome of those discussions.
  The objections are twofold. First, there is objection in principle to the idea of fees, to the parent Bill and to the portion of legislation from which the fees and regulations are derived. I was sorry to hear that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. Alton) and my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir B. Rhys Williams) propose to vote against the regulations.
  However, the issue centred on agriculture and, particularly, on horticulture. Many of my hon. Friends threw stones in the direction of my glasshouse. The horticulture industry has a serious problem, but hon. Members should recognise that in the amendments we sought to strike a balance between competing agricultural interests. My hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. Wells) said that the balance between agriculture and horticulture had been changed by the regulations. That is a serious matter. We are talking about an exemption from fee income although—as the House is aware—there is a significant shortage of fee income. Although I have undertaken to examine afresh, towards the end of the year, what might be done about horticultural fees, I must take note of the fact that the total agricultural exemption is regarded by some of my hon. Friends as almost excessive.
  Undoubtedly there is a case for looking at the problem of horticulture. We felt it right to make an immediate adjustment and the exemption of the 465 metres will make a significant contribution towards many of the smaller units for horticultural production. That will be welcome.
  Mr. Alton rose——
  Mr. Shaw: My hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Mr. Alexander) was concerned about the complexity of the regulations. I agree with him and we shall reconsider ways and means of simplifying them. My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, North (Mr. Griffiths) raised the question of the vexatious application. Under regulation 7, there will still be only one free further application. The second, third and fourth applications from such a planner would certainly carry the full fee. There is no intention of widening the exemption in that regard.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Thorne) referred to the dilatory handling of planning applications. I agree that the fee has brought to the attention of local authorities the need to process applications both fairly and efficiently. My hon. Friend will be aware that, for the first time, we have published a list of the planning authorities, showing their performance in relation to the eight week deemed period

  723
  for dealing with planning applications. It is vital to maintain the pressure on planning authorities to process the applications correctly.
  The object of the fees regulations is to make some changes based on what we have learnt, particularly from agriculture, and to make a modest increase in the level of the fees. Tonight the House has said that it expects an increase and accepts the 10 per cent. limit. On the other hand, my hon. Friends argue that there should be a further review of horticulture later in the year. I undertake to do that. Although the Opposition seek to divide the House on the major proposal before us, it is essential that we provide a system under which the substantial costs and benefits of the planning costs should produce some——
  It being one and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER put the Question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business)
  The House divided: Ayes 83, Noes 41.

  Division No. 147]

  [12.50 am

  AYES

  Alexander, Richard

  Eggar, Tim

  Ancram, Michael

  Faith, Mrs Sheila

  Aspinwall, Jack

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E)

  Gow, Ian

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay)

  Gray, Hamish

  Benyon.Thomas (A 'don)

  Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N)

  Berry, Hon Anthony

  Gummer, John Selwyn

  Bevan, David Gilroy

  Hamilton, Hon A.

  Biggs-Davison, Sir John

  Hannam, John

  Blackburn, John

  Hawkins, Paul

  Boscawen, Hon Robert

  Heddle, John

  Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W)

  Hunt, David (Wirral)

  Bright, Graham

  Jessel, Toby

  Brinton, Tim

  Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

  Brown, Michael(Brigg & Sc'n)

  Lang, Ian

  Budgen, Nick

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Bulmer, Esmond

  Lester, Jim (Beeston)

  Cadbury, Jocelyn

  Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

  Carlisle, John (Luton West)

  Loveridge, John

  Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n)

  Luce, Richard

  Chapman, Sydney

  Lyell, Nicholas

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Macfarlane, Neil

  Cope, John

  Major, John

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Mather, Carol

  Dorrell, Stephen

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Dover, Denshore

  Mills, Iain (Meriden)

  Dunn, Robert(Dartford)

  Moate, Roger

  724

  Murphy, Christopher

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  Needham, Richard

  Thomas, Rt Hon Peter

  Neubert, Michael

  Thompson, Donald

  Newton, Tony

  Thorne, Neil(Ilford South)

  Osborn, John

  Townsend, Cyril D, (B 'heath)

  Patten, Christopher(Bath)

  Waddington, David

  Pawsey, James

  Wall, Sir Patrick

  Proctor, K. Harvey

  Waller, Gary

  Renton, Tim

  Wells, Bowen

  Rossi, Hugh

  Wheeler, John

  Sainsbury, Hon Timothy

  Wickenden, Keith

  Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

  Wilkinson, John

  Silvester, Fred

  Sims, Roger

  Tellers for the Ayes:

  Speller, Tony

  Mr. Peter Brooke and

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

  Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones.

  Stewart, A. (E Renfrewshire)

  NOES

  Alton, David

  MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

  Beith, A. J.

  Marks, Kenneth

  Bennett, Andrew(St'kp't N)

  Marshall, Dr Edmund(Goole)

  Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

  Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

  Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P)

  O'Neill, Martin

  Campbell-Savours, Dale

  Parry, Robert

  Canavan, Dennis

  Penhaligon, David

  Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

  Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)

  Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S)

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Cryer, Bob

  Robertson, George

  Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

  Robinson, G. (Coventry NW)

  Dewar, Donald

  Skinner, Dennis

  Dixon, Donald

  Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)

  Dormand, Jack

  Snape, Peter

  Eastham, Ken

  Soley, Clive

  Evans, John (Newton)

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Foulkes, George

  Welsh, Michael

  George, Bruce

  Young, David (Bolton E)

  Graham, Ted

  Hardy, Peter

  Tellers for the Noes:

  Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

  Mr. Allan McKay and

  Haynes, Frank

  Mr. George Morton.

  Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the draft Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications and Deemed Applications) (Amendment) Regulations 1982, which were laid before this House on 19th April, be approved.
  Resolved,
  That the draft Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications and Deemed Applications) (Amendment) (Scotland) Regulations 1982, which were laid before this House on 26th April, be approved.—[Mr. Berry.]

  Twickenham (Environmental and Traffic Problems)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Berry.]
  1.1 am
  Mr. Toby Jessel: I am most grateful for the opportunity to discuss the quality of life in my constituency. I make no apology for doing so at a time of national crisis when, between anxious moments, people can derive spiritual refreshment from seeing what is fine and beautiful.
  I congratulate the Department of the Environment on the splendid way that it maintains the two royal parks in my constituency—Bushy Park and Home Park, Hampton Court—and the palace and gardens of Hampton Court. These are magnificent treasured parts of our national heritage. Hampton Court grounds and palace are visited every year by vast numbers of people from home and abroad. I am told that it is the third most visited site in the country, after the Tower of London and Stonehenge.
  I live across the road from Hampton Court and confess to having sometimes slightly mixed feelings in the summer when I see crowds of tourists at Hampton Court in the morning and at Westminster in the afternoon. But one has to rise above such feelings, because tourism brings a great deal of employment and trade to the country. Our national heritage is a draw that few other countries can equal.
  To many of my constituents in Teddington, the Hamptons, Twickenham, Whitton and beyond, both Bushy Park and Home Park are regarded as local parks that give endless pleasure through the changing scenes round the year. For example, currently in Bushy Park one can see the avenues of chestnut trees that are in full bloom; and the azaleas in the woodland gardens ae a truly marvellous sight. A month ago in Hampton Court gardens one could see the finest daffodils in the world.
  I believe that those pleasures are enjoyed by the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Mr. Mather), who is on the Government Front Bench tonight and whose constituency adjoins the area. I believe I speak for many thousands of our constituents, and of yours, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as your constituency in Croydon is not far away. The constituency of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment is within seven or nine miles of the area and I thank him and his Department for all the skill and artistry which they have applied to these matters.
  However, I do not think that my hon. Friend will like so much what I shall say next. Facing the east side of Hampton Court palace is a double row of 180 tall lime trees, about a quarter of which need replacing. There is a school of thought within the Department of the Environment that wants to cut the lot down in one clean sweep and start again with two new rows. That would look fine for posterity in 50 or 100 years, but not very nice meanwhile.
  The alternative policy, which I prefer, is to fill the gaps or to replace the dud or stunted trees with individual saplings. This question was discussed fully and heatedly in 1978. There were eminent experts on both sides, and there were 20 or 30 letters in The Times. I fought against cutting down the lot, as did the distinguished actor, Marius
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  Goring, who lives nearby and is chairman of the Hampton Court Association. I believe that I also have the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Esher.
  In the end, the Labour Government accepted our view. Last week, however, when. I called on my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, partly to ask what was happening about the infilling, I sensed that some of his advisers were now speaking on hehalf of those who were fighting a rearguard action to reinstate the plan for a clean sweep.
  My hon. Friend is, of course, aware that many people feel very strongly indeed about trees. One of the jobs of hon. Members is to tell officials and experts what the public will not stand. As Sir Winston Churchill once said, "The experts must be kept on tap and not on top". If either my hon. Friend or my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment authorise the destruction of more than 100 sound and beautiful green lime trees at Hampton Court, facing directly on to the palace, which are seen by 1 million people every year, they will unleash a fury and rage of such a size that they will wonder what has hit them. I hope that any such idea will soon be dropped.
  My next point concerns Barge Walk by the river Thames at Hampton Wick, where for years there has been a small and ugly car park. I do not believe that our royal parks should be in the business of providing car parks in conservation areas for commuters. This car park is so small that it was not economic to post a man there to run it. Therefore, it could not be occupied for the odd hour or two by short-stay parkers who might be shopping over the bridge in Kingston. It therefore tended to fill up with all-day commuters. Can my hon. Friend please make a statement on the action he is now taking to deal with this blot on the landscape?
  I turn to a small open space known as Glenside at the junction of Spencer Road and Popes Avenue near Twickenham Green. Application was made to the Richmond upon Thames borough council to develop that site at high density with 28 three-storey houses. Local people objected individually or through their excellent Strawberry Hill residents association. The Conservative-led borough council was united and refused planning permission, but the applicant appealed, the Ministry's planning inspector recommended reversal of the council's refusal, the appeal was accepted and planning permission was granted, even though this planning application related to a site of purely local interest.
  However, the land is subject to a covenant that it should remain open space. The Minister appears to have the power either to override that covenant or to uphold it. Therefore, the future of the site hangs upon that one point. If the covenant is upheld, development cannot proceed even though planning permission has been granted. There is strong and widespread local feeling that the site should remain open, and I ask my hon. Friend to respect that feeling and to honour the covenant.
  I turn finally to the effect of heavy traffic OE the environment of my constituency. Over the years, I have supported strongly the construction of the M25 ring motorway around Greater London. We suffer very heavy traffic on the orbital route around London through Uxbridge road, in Hampton Hill, through Hampton village and Hampton Court as well as on the Great Chertsey road, the A316, which leads to the M3 motorway and on main

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  roads between Kingston bridge, Hampton Wick, Teddington and Twickenham, towards London and through Whitton.
  The completion of the M25 is urgently needed. To give any effective relief to my constituents, this means the whole length of the south-western quarter from Reigate Hill, where that part of the M25 now ends, to Chertsey. There are four separate contracts—the first from the top of Reigate Hill to the Leatherhead interchange, the second for the Leatherhead interchange, the third from the Leatherhead interchange to Wisley on the A3 Portsmouth road and the fourth from Wisley to Chertsey from where the M25 is already open to the north.
  To relieve my constituents in Hampton Hill and in Hampton, it will be no good merely to have one, two or three of those parts open. All four must be open to remove traffic from the part of my constituency that has suffered for so long. No one imagines that all the flow of traffic or even a majority of it will be removed. I believe, however, that a significant part will be removed by direct transfer to the M25 and also the transfer of traffic crossing the Thames at Hampton Court to Walton bridge which will be made possible by the transfer of traffic from Walton bridge to the M25 nearby. I should like to know when each of the four parts of the M25 that I have mentioned will be completed and opened.
  Once the M25 is completed around the south-western quarter, I believe that it will take a proportion of the traffic that now passes through my constituency, including a disproportionate number of heavy lorries as a percentage of the total. It will also be a boon to the two-thirds of households in my constituency that possess cars. The motorway will become accessible between Esher and Leatherhead and so bring Kent, Surrey and Sussex 10 minutes' travelling time nearer.
  I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to give me some encouraging news.
  1.13 am
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Neil Macfarlane): I am pleased to be able to answer many of the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel) and to congratulate him on his diligence in ensuring that the interests of his constituents and those of the many thousands who visit his constituency are thoroughly looked after. I willingly accept the congratulations that my hon. Friend asks me to convey to the parks staff. I echo the congratulations that he has offered on the work that has been done in making our royal parks so superb. I have been privileged in recent weeks to visit Bushy Park, Home Park and Hampton Court palace. My Department spends a great deal of taxpayers' money and I am anxious to discover how it is spent and to make certain that the parks staff are assured of our total interest. I shall willingly convey my hon. Friend's good wishes to the bailiff of the royal parks.
  I turn now to the points raised by my hon. Friend, which he and I have discussed on some previous occasions and which cause much anxiety in his constituency. The first of these is the question of the lime trees at Hampton Court palace. As my hon. Friend knows, we face a genuine dilemma. It is a question of looking at what the local representatives want and taking into consideration the advice of experts. I know that my hon. Friend may not
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  have too much of a rose-tinted view of what an expert may be. On another occasion somebody said that an expert was someone who carried a briefcase. On this occasion we have to listen to the advice of experts.
  As my hon. Friend was kind enough to mention, my constituency is not far away and the park is a regular route between my main home and my constituency. Although I do not know the area as well as he does, I know it fairly well. Many people get vast pleasure from Hampton Court, which attracts large numbers of tourist. Their interests, particularly those of the local residents, are very important. We have to take all those interests into account.
  My hon. Friend knows that essentially we have two options. One is to infill, as he has suggested, where trees have been felled, with new trees between the older, healthy ones. It would preserve the old trees to which so many people attach importance. If we cut them all down, and that is an agonising possibility, it will be many years before people can take pleasure from an avenue again. We also have to take nature into account. Trees planted in existing avenues, in particular when the trees remaining are mature, find it difficult to live under these conditions. They are unable to tolerate the growing conditions when they have to remain under the canopy of these trees. The shade cast forces them to look for light. In consequence, they either make tall, thin trees that are vulnerable to winds, or they become "one-sided" trees as they lean towards the light. Rarely do they grow as nature intended. Instead of noble, well-branched trees, they tend to form unnatural shapes and are often untypical of the species.
  Such trees are also being planted into ground that has been taken over by the existing trees. They therefore have to struggle for the water and nutrients that are essential to their growth. Although special planting positions are provided, new trees are not as vigorous as they would be if all other conditions were equal. I must make it clear to my hon. Friend that the firm advice of the experts is that we shall never have a satisfactory avenue if we follow an infilling policy. That is one view from the experts.
  Mr. Jessel: Is my hon. Friend aware that not all the experts' advice is on one side? When the matter came up three and a half years ago there were a number of eminent experts, such as Professor Stearn, president of the Garden History Society, who took an opposite view to the Tree Council, which is serving his Department.
  Mr. Macfarlane: That is one of the reasons why it is such an agonising decision. It is a major step, and we are anxious to absorb all the observations of all experts.
  The alternative of felling all the trees and planting afresh is something that we have looked at over the years. All the trees would then have an equal chance and eventually there would once again be a magnificent avenue for visitors and residents to admire. History could not criticise us for doing that. I understand my hon. Friend's arguments, but there is a genuine dilemma.
  I recognise the view of those who argue for infilling. I emphasise that my Department has taken no decision, although we clearly must do so soon. I am grateful for the views we have received. I shall let my hon. Friend know the Government's decision as soon as I can. Meanwhile I hope that he will take up the suggestion I have put to him to look at the effects of past infilling in lime avenues at Hampton Court and then compare the infilling at Hampton with the avenue of trees in Kensington Gardens, which were planted 30 years ago, to see what has happened there.

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  My hon. Friend also raised the problem of Barge Walk. I took the opportunity of going down to have a look at the problem some weeks ago. I am grateful for the support of my hon. Friend for the plans that the Department has for what used to be the car park on Barge Walk in Hampton Court park. It was high time that this area was returned to natural parkland. As he knows, the Department has wished to do this for some time now. But we have had to wait until the borough council was successful in evicting the vehicles illegally parked there and used for residential and other purposes. These vehicles were on site at the time that the Department withdrew the licence for the council to run a car park there and it thus fell to it to take legal action to remove them.
  We are now moving forward very quickly. A barrier has been in place for some weeks now, across the main entrance off Barge Walk. Next week work will start on breaking up the concrete ground. This is in preparation for sowing seed and planting trees and shrubs later this autumn. When we are preparing the ground, as I have described, we shall erect a further barrier to prevent access to the area from the road under Kingston bridge that leads to the towpath. We shall not interfere with passage along this road or access from it to the towpath, which belongs to the Thames water authority.
  I hope that everyone in Hampton Wick and the surrounding area will welcome what we have in hand for removing this distinctly untidy blot in a most important Royal Park. Foremost among those who will benefit will be the owners of houseboats moored alongside the towpath. I am ensuring that they are being kept informed, through the Thames water authority, of our plans step by step. I shall continue to keep my hon. Friend informed of progress in the next few months, as I have been doing in meetings and correspondence.
  I turn to the third point raised by my hon. Friend—the Glenside site. I wrote to him yesterday about the Glenside lawn tennis club and reassured him that all the relevant factors that he has put forward will be taken into account before any decision is reached. There is nothing that I can add at this stage except to say that I have examined all the details, and I am aware of the problems of the town planning application and the covenant. I guarantee to take all those factors into consideration.
  I turn to the traffic problems facing my hon. Friend's constituents. I can understand my hon. Friend's great interest in the progress of the London outer orbital between the M4 and Reigate. He knows the history of that problem better than I do because it affects his constituency a great deal more than mine. As he knows, about five miles of the M25 is already open to traffic from Yeoveney, north of Staines, to Chertsey. Completion of the remaining sections is expected to be as follows. The first will be Reigate westward to Wisley. There are three separate contracts covering this section and all three are expected to be completed by spring 1985. The second part is Wisley to
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  Chertsey. This is well under way and is expected to be completed in the summer of 1983. The stretch from Yeoveney northward to Poyle is also under construction, including a spur towards the west side of Heathrow airport. Completion is expected by the summer of 1983. Work has not yet started on the stretch from Poyle northward to the M4, but completion is programmed for 1985–86. I understand from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport that this work has the highest priority in his trunk road programme, and he regrets that he can see no possibility of hastening the project.
  I shall say a few words on the degree of traffic relief which the M25 should bring to two main routes in my hon. Friend's constituency. First, the Uxbridge Road (A312), Hampton Court Road (A308) and Hampton Court Way (A309) over Hampton Court bridge all combine to form an orbital route in outer South-West London. On these routes it is expected that between 5 per cent. and 25 per cent. of the traffic on them will transfer to the M25 when the sections that I have mentioned are completed. The greatest relief will be on the A309 over Hampton Court bridge and the least relief will be on the Uxbridge Road, the A312. That is an estimate that has been put forward.
  Secondly, the Great Chertsey Road, the A316, is part of a major radial road with primary route signposting between the M3 at Sunbury and Central London. Traffic studies carried out by the Greater London Council tome years ago indicated that traffic on the Great Chertsey Road would be reduced by about only 3 per cent. with the advent of the M25. However, as the 3 per cent. reduction is expected to relate to vehicles undertaking longer distance journeys, it is a significant figure because many of those vehicles will be lorries. Their diversion to the M25 wall be an undoubted environmental benefit for those living on and near the Great Chertsey Road.
  I hope that, by examining some of those points, my hon. Friend will realise that it is our intention to pursue that particular programme as quickly as is possible. Everyone understands and sympathises with the congestion and the problems facing not only his constituents but also the many tourists who visit that part of South-West London. We are anxious that those programmes should proceed.
  I have covered the issues that my hon. Friend raised, including the lime trees, Barge Walk, the Glenside problem and the M25. I conclude by offering further discussion on any of the matters raised by my hon. Friend. He knows that my door is always open and that the Department is anxious to do what it can to help. I acknowledge the thanks and appreciation that he expressed of our park staff. I endorse his remarks and congratulate the staff too. It has done a magnificent job after a heavy and bad winter.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes past One o'clock.