Mr. J. Enoch PowellI beg to move amendment No. 46, in page 4, line 5, leave out from first 'chairman', to 'of' in line 6.
I am sorry that I do not discern the hon. Member for Bebington and Ellesmere Port (Mr. Porter) in the Chamber. The amendment and the reasoning upon it contain the answer to a question that he put during our debates yesterday afternoon—why, if such an Assembly as this came into existence, it would fall into the traps and would provide the basis which many of us believe that it is intended to provide for participation in all-Ireland institutions and thus pave the way for the transfer of Ulster from the United Kingdom to a United Ireland.
This will be an Assembly of 78 or 85 Members. The clause with which the amendment is concerned provides for the appointment of a committee to shadow each Department of the Government of Northern Ireland. Moreover, it provides for the appointment in each case of a deputy chairman or two deputy chairmen. I am willing to leave it to you, Mr. Dean, to guess whether the decision would be in favour of two deputy chairmen rather than one. When your eye fell on subsection (3), and had you 333 had any initial hesitation, your mind would have been made up when you realised that special remuneration will attach not only to the chairmen but to the deputy chairmen.
Let us suppose that there are eight Departments of Government. That makes eight chairmen and 16 deputy chairmen—24 salaried persons as a minimum, for it must be borne in mind—
§ Mr. John PattenAs a result of the successful passing of the Departments (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) order two nights ago, there will be six Northern Ireland Departments.
Mr. PowellBut the hon. Gentleman is as conscious as I am that during our earlier time spent on the Bill, which some people argue we wasted, we ascertained the fact that it might be possible, and even desirable, to split some of the Departments. Should it come to the attention of the Assembly that by splitting the Departments the number of chairmanships and deputy chairmanships could be increased, that is not a matter that it would readily pass over.
I put the matter more generally by saying that between 20 and 25 Members of the Assembly, the membership of which is at present envisaged as 78—in other words, about one third of the Assembly—might be salaried. I am not referring to their salary as Members of the Assembly. They will get that in any case. I am referring to a special additional salary in consideration of their being chairmen, deputy chairmen or deputy deputy chairmen of the committees. The Bill also provides that there may be other committees than those which shadow the Departments of Government.
There is, therefore, at the outset an array of patronage. We in this House well understand the working of office. We understand not merely the susceptibility of Members to the duties of office—to their duties as confidential servants of the Crown—but also the influence on their minds that by taking certain courses rather than others and speaking in one way rather than another, the possibility of lucrative and honorific appointments might be increased.
I do not think that that would be absent from the minds of those persons of blameless reputation and integrity who might be elected to an Assembly such as this. At any rate there one has a start, at least on the business of securing a decision of the Assembly to send representation to an Anglo-Irish parliamentary tier. One has made a beginning upon constituting, if not a majority, at any rate a substantial showing in favour of participation in that federal-type institution.
The clause refers to a time when the Assembly will not be exercising its devolved functions. As the shoulder title indicates, it relates to Departments still
under control of Secretary of State".Therefore, the committees will not be responsible for Departments, or even responsible for watching Departments, for which the Assembly has taken responsibility. They will be committees responsible to the talking shop for watching Departments for which the Secretary of State is responsible to this House.
§ Mr. John Pattenrose—
Mr. PowellI promise to give way to the hon. Gentleman if the exigencies of time permit.
334 In framing the amendment, my hon. Friends and I were in no ungenerous mood. We should consider the substantial salary that will be paid to Members of the Assembly, together with travelling allowances and other considerations in which we in this House have led the way. We have blazed a trail that others will no doubt follow. We might have come to the conclusion that it would be proper to expect not just the deputy or even the second deputy chairman to do whatever work there might be without extra remuneration, but that the chairman himself might regard the privilege of presiding over a committee examining the work of a Department of Government as something to be thrown in as part of the job. We did not take that restricted view and have been content to leave a special salary in the Bill.
Had time permitted, the Committee might have considered whether there should be some limitations upon those special salaries, such as an indication of the maxima and so on. We have been willing in principle to concede for the chairman, but not for the deputy chairmen or the deputy deputy chairmen.
I believe that the Minister wants to intervene. Perhaps he wants to wind up.
§ Mr. John PattenI am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I do not want to wind up. I merely want to draw something to the Committee's attention. He spoke at great speed, and I shall attempt to speak just as quickly.
The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that in addition to the departmentally related committees that would have chairmen and vice-chairmen, the Assembly could also create other committees. That is perfectly correct. But as they do not have statutory responsibilities, it is extremely important to realise that the chairmen, vice-chairmen and officers of those committees cannot be paid. The Assembly cannot indulge in some sort of job creation exercise. Its proper role will be to ensure that the departmentally related committees do the hard and serious work of shadowing the work of those Departments.
Mr. PowellIt is a relief to know that although the committees and chairmanships can pullulate, there will not necessarily be a corresponding pullulation of salaries. I therefore restrict myself to the modest picture that I painted of about 20 or so Members out of an Assembly of 78 having an inducement greater than that of receiving the salary and other emoluments that their fellow Assembly Members will receive.
This House is fairly jealous of the ratio between the payroll and the non-payroll. Estimates of the payroll vary, and the payroll is not entirely made up of people who are paid. When the payroll vote comes in at 1 o'clock or 3 o'clock in the morning, we are accustomed to seeing not only those in receipt of salaries but those who are in expectation. That should also be borne in mind.
§ Sir John Biggs-DavisonIs the right hon. Gentleman aware of the figure that was scored in the recent Divisions?
Mr. PowellAbout 130. I was proceeding to treat 130 as a fraction of 635. I was about to indicate that without any other considerations, inducements or pourboires that might be devised, the clause as it stands constitutes a payroll vote half as large again as the payroll vote that many of us consider to be dangerously excessive.
§ Mr. John PattenIt will be for the convenience of the Committee if, in the short time remaining to me, I attempt to answer some of the questions that were put at such speed.
I must make it clear at the outset that the Government are not able—
§ It being half-past Six o'clock, THE FIRST DEPUTY CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order [22 June] to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made: —
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 21, Noes 146.
336| Division No. 234] | [6.30 pm |
| AYES | |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Morris, M. (N'hampton S) |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Murphy, Christopher |
| Budgen, Nick | Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Cryer, Bob | Skinner, Dennis |
| Dunlop, John | Smyth, Rev. W. M. (Belfast S) |
| Farr, John | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Walker, B. (Perth) |
| Gorst, John | |
| Knight, Mrs Jill | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Mr. K. Harvey Proctor and |
| Macmillan, Rt Hon M. | Mr. William Ross. |
| Molyneaux, James | |
| NOES | |
| Alton, David | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Arnold, Tom | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Hawkins, Sir Paul |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (S'thorne) | Hawksley, Warren |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th,E) | Heddle, John |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Beith, A. J. | Hill, James |
| Benyon, Thomas (A'don) | Holland, Philip (Carlton) |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Hordern, Peter |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Howells, Geraint |
| Blackburn, John | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Jessel, Toby |
| Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Kershaw, Sir Anthony |
| Bright, Graham | Kilfedder, James A. |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Lee, John |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Butcher, John | Loveridge, John |
| Cadbury, Jocelyn | Luce, Richard |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n) | Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W) |
| Cartwright, John | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson |
| Chapman, Sydney | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Major, John |
| Cope, John | Marlow, Antony |
| Costain, Sir Albert | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Crouch, David | Marten, Rt Hon Neil |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Mather, Carol |
| Dover, Denshore | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Mellor, David |
| Dunn, James A. | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | Mills, Iain (Meriden) |
| Eggar, Tim | Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) |
| Ellis Tom (Wrexham) | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | Mitchell, R.C. (Soton Itchen) |
| Fitt, Gerard | Moate, Roger |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Montgomery, Fergus |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Moore, John |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Mudd, David |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Myles, David |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Neale, Gerrard |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Needham, Richard |
| Gummer, John Selwyn | Newton, Tony |
| Hamilton, Hon A. | Onslow, Cranley |
| Osborn, John | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Page, John (Harrow, West) | Speed, Keith |
| Page, Richard (SW Herts) | Speller, Tony |
| Patten, John (Oxford) | Stainton, Keith |
| Pawsey, James | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Penhaligon, David | Stevens, Martin |
| Pitt, William Henry | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Pollock, Alexander | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Prior, Rt Hon James | Thompson, Donald |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Trippier, David |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Trotter, Neville |
| Ridsdale, Sir Julian | Wainwright, R. (Colne V) |
| Robinson, P. (Belfast E) | Waller, Gary |
| Rodgers, Rt Hon William | Watson, John |
| Roper, John | Wellbeloved, James |
| Rossi, Hugh | Wells, Bowen |
| Rumbold, Mrs A. C. R. | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | Wheeler, John |
| Sandelson, Neville | Wickenden, Keith |
| Scott, Nicholas | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Shaw Sir Michael (Scarb') | Wolfson, Mark |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | |
| Silvester, Fred | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Sims, Roger | Mr. David Hunt and |
| Smith, Dudley | Mr. Ian Lang. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ THE FIRST DEPUTY CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at half-past Six o'clock.
§ Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 141, Noes 21.
337| Division No. 235] | [6.40 pm |
| AYES | |
| Alton, David | Grimond, Rt Hon J. |
| Arnold, Tom | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Hamilton, Hon A. |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (S'thorne) | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th,E) | Hawkins, Sir Paul |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Hawksley, Warren |
| Beith, A.J. | Heddle, John |
| Benyon Thomas (A'don) | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Hill, James |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Holland, Philip (Carlton) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Hordern, Peter |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Blackburn, John | Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Howells, Geraint |
| Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Jessel, Toby |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Bright, Graham | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Kershaw, Sir Anthony |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Lang, Ian |
| Butcher, John | Lee, John |
| Cadbury, Jocelyn | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n) | Loveridge, John |
| Cartwright, John | Luce, Richard |
| Chapman, Sydney | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Cope, John | Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W) |
| Costain, Sir Albert | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson |
| Crouch, David | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. |
| Dover, Denshore | Major, John |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Dunn, James A. | Marten, Rt Hon Neil |
| Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | Mather, Carol |
| Eggar, Tim | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | Mellor, David |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Fitt, Gerard | Mills, Iain (Meriden) |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon) |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton Itchen) |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Moate, Roger |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Silvester, Fred |
| Moore, John | Sims, Roger |
| Mudd, David | Smith, Dudley |
| Myles, David | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Neale, Gerrard | Speed, Keith |
| Needham, Richard | Speller, Tony |
| Newton, Tony | Stainton, Keith |
| Onslow, Cranley | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Osborn, John | Stevens, Martin |
| Page, John (Harrow, West) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Page, Richard (SW Herts) | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Patten, John (Oxford) | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Pawsey, James | Thompson, Donald |
| Penhaligon, David | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Pitt, William Henry | Trippier, David |
| Pollock, Alexander | Trotter, Neville |
| Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Wainwright, R.(Colne V) |
| Prior, Rt Hon James | Waller, Gary |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Watson, John |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Wellbeloved, James |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Wells, Bowen |
| Ridsdale, Sir Julian | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Rodgers, Rt Hon William | Wheeler, John |
| Roper, John | Wickenden, Keith |
| Rossi, Hugh | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Rumbold, Mrs A. C. R. | Wolfson, Mark |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | |
| Sandelson, Neville | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Scott, Nicholas | Mr. David Hunt and |
| Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') | Mr. Peter Brooke |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | |
| NOES | |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Morris, M. (N'hampton S) |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Murphy, Christopher |
| Budgen, Nick | Powell, Rt Hon J.E. (S Down) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Cryer, Bob | Robinson, P. (Belfast E) |
| Dunlop, John | Skinner, Dennis |
| Farr, John | Smyth, Rev. W. M. (Belfast S) |
| Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | |
| Kilfedder, James A. | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Knight, Mrs Jill | Mr. K. Harvey Proctor and |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Mr. William Ross. |
| Molyneaux, James |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.