§
Ordered,
That, at this day's sitting, the Local Government Finance (No. 2) Bill and the Reserve Forces Bill [Lords] may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. David Hunt.]
§ Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
Mr. ShawAs I was saying, this does not mean that the Government are deaf to representations except, that is, to those from the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price). Of course, we shall listen to local authorities that feel that there are good reasons why they cannot meet targets. If there is a case that raises a general principle, it may be possible to consider exemptions. Indeed, exemptions were considered in the financial year 1981–82. Authorities will know how hold-back will be calculated before they set their rates. This is the main burden of the Bill. The abolition of the supplementary rate will mean that authorities will know exactly where they stand in relation to their main rate.
If an authority chose to ignore targets that others had been able to meet without disastrous effects on their services, it would not be able to claim in the middle of the year that hold-back came as a surprise. Provided that the authorities keep within the law, they will be able to maintain services at an acceptable level, but whether their ratepayers and electors will agree is another matter.
I urge the House to reject the amendment.
§ Mr. CowansNot for the first time, I am totally disappointed with the Minister's reply. To be honest, he has not given any reply. As the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Cartwright) said earlier, by no stretch of the imagination can I now shout "Eureka!" What the Minister has said must concern every right hon. and hon. Member in the House. The Minister has said that when the dead hand of the Secretary of State touches local authorities, the will of the House and any legislation is at risk. If that is not a negation of democracy, I do not know what is.
§ Mr. Christopher PriceIt is good of my hon. Friend to give way to me. The Minister churlishly refused to do so. It would be right to put the record straight. When the Minister says that the adequacy of services is the length of a piece of string, the proper judge of whether services are adequate according to the law would, in the final resort, be the House of Lords, in a case brought to decide what that adequacy was. If the courts decided, for instance, that a local authority was not providing adequate education, there would be a problem if the Government had cut back grant to the local authority and prevented it from doing what the House of Lords told it to do.
§ Mr. CowansMy hon. Friend has put the case much better than I could have done. I do not need to comment further on that except to say that sometimes local government wished that it had something as long as a piece of string. It is important that the Government have not seen fit even to examine the wording of the amendment or to consider the implications. It is a sad reflection on a Government who came to power on a manifesto that promised more democracy to local government and, by every successive word and deed, have made sure that that is impossible.
I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends will join me in pressing the amendment to a Division, because it is a fundamental issue that should be included in the Bill. The Minister has not given one inkling of the depth of sincerity with which the amendment was tabled or the importance of it.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 217, Noes 279.
784| Division No. 120] | [10.04 pm |
| AYES | |
| Abse, Leo | Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n&P) |
| Adams, Allen | Campbell, Ian |
| Allaun, Frank | Campbell-Savours, Dale |
| Alton, David | Canavan, Dennis |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Carmichael, Neil |
| Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Cartwright, John |
| Ashton, Joe | Clark, Dr David (S Shields) |
| Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) | Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) |
| Bagier, Gordon A.T. | Cohen, Stanley |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Coleman, Donald |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd) | Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. |
| Beith, A.J. | Conlan, Bernard |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Cook, Robin F. |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Cowans, Harry |
| Booth,Rt Hon Albert | Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon A. (M'b'ro) | Crowther, Stan |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Cryer, Bob |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n) |
| Brown, R. C. (N'castle W) | Dalyell, Tam |
| Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S) | Davidson, Arthur |
| Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) |
| Buchan, Norman | Davies, Ifor (Gower) |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. | Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd) | Mc Taggart, Robert |
| Deakins, Eric | McWilliam, John |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Marks, Kenneth |
| Dewar, Donald | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Dixon, Donald | Martin, M (G'gowS'burn) |
| Dobson, Frank | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Dormand, Jack | Meacher, Michael |
| Douglas, Dick | Mikardo, Ian |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Dunn, James A. | Miller, Dr M.S. (E Kilbride) |
| Dunnett, Jack | Mitchell, R.C. (Soton Itchen) |
| Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. | Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) |
| Eadie, Alex | Morton, George |
| Eastham, Ken | Moyle, Rt Hon Roland |
| Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E) | Newens, Stanley |
| Ellis, R. (NE D' bysh're) | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon |
| English, Michael | O' Neill, Martin |
| Evans, loan (Aberdare) | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Faulds,Andrew | Owen, Rt Hon Dr David |
| Field, Frank | Park, George |
| Fitch, Alan | Parker, John |
| Flannery, Martin | Parry, Robert |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Pendry, Tom |
| Ford, Ben | Penhaligon, David |
| Forrester, John | Pitt, William Henry |
| Foster, Derek | Powel, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Foulkes, George | Price, C. (Lewisham W) |
| Fraser, J. (Lamb'th,N'w'd) | Race, Reg |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Radice, Giles |
| Freud, Clement | Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S) |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Richardson, Jo |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Golding, John | Roberts,Allan (Bootle) |
| Graham, Ted | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Roberts,Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Robertson, George |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) |
| Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Rowlands, Ted |
| Haynes, Frank | Ryman, John |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Sandelson, Neville |
| Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll) | Sever, John |
| Homewood, William | Sheerman, Barry |
| Hooley, Frank | Sheldon, Rt Hon R. |
| Horam, John | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Howell, Rt Hon D. | Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford) |
| Howells, Geraint | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Hoyle, Douglas | Silvermanjulius |
| Huckfield, Les | Skinner, Dennis |
| Hughes, Mark(Durham) | Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark) |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Snape, Peter |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Soley, Clive |
| Janner, Hon Greville | Spearing, Nigel |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Spriggs, Leslie |
| John, Brynmor | Stallard, A.W. |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Johnston, Russel (Inverness,) | Stoddart, David |
| Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda) | Stott,Roger |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Strang, Gavin |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Straw, Jack |
| Kilfedder, James A. | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Kinnock, Neil | Thomas, Dr R. (Carmarthen) |
| Lamborn, Harry | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Tilley, John |
| Leighton, Ronald | Tinn, James |
| Lestor, MissJoan | Torney, Tom |
| Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Litherland, Robert | Wainwright, E. (Dearne V) |
| Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Wainwright,R. (Colne V) |
| Lyon,Alexander (York) | Walker, Rt Hon H. (D' caster) |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W) | Watkins, David |
| McCartney, Hugh | Weetch, Ken |
| McDonald, DrOonagh | Wellbeloved, James |
| McKay, Allen (Penistone) | Welsh, Michael |
| McKelvey,William | Wheeler, John |
| MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | White, Frank R. |
| Maclennan, Robert | White, J. (G'gow Pollok) |
| McNamara, Kevin | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Whitlock, William | Woolmer, Kenneth |
| Willey, Rt Hon Frederick | Wright, Sheila |
| Williams, Rt Hon A. (S'sea W) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Wilson, R Hon Sir H. (H'ton;) | |
| Wilson, William (C'try SE) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Winnick,David | Mr. Austin Mitchell and Dr. Edmund Marshall. |
| Woodall,Alec |
| NOES | |
| Adley, Robert | Fairbairn, Nicholas |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Fairgrieve, Sir Russell |
| Alexander, Richard | Farr, John |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael | Fenner, Mrs Peggy |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Finsberg, Geoffrey |
| Ancram, Michael | Fisher, Sir Nigel |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N) |
| Atkins, Robert (Preston N) | Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th, E) | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Baker, Kenneth (St M'bone) | Forman, Nigel |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Banks, Robert | Fox, Marcus |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Fraser, Peter (South Angus) |
| Bendall, Vivian | Fry, Peter |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) |
| Best, Keith | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian |
| Biggs-Davison, Sir John | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Blackburn, John | Goodhart, Sir Philip |
| Blaker, Peter | Goodhew, Sir Victor |
| Body, Richard | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Gorst, John |
| Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) | Gow, Ian |
| Bowden, Andrew | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Gray, Hamish |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Greenway, Harry |
| Bright, Graham | Griffiths, E. (B'y St. Edm'ds) |
| Brinton, Tim | Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N) |
| Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon | Grist, Ian |
| Brotherton, Michael | Grylls, Michael |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg&Sc'n) | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Hamilton, Hon A. |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Buchanan-Smith, Rt. Hon. A. | Hannam, John |
| Buck, Antony | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Budgen, Nick | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael |
| Burden, Sir Frederick | Hawksley, Warren |
| Butcher, John | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Cadbury, Jocelyn | Heddle, John |
| Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Henderson,Barry |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hicks, Robert |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon M. (R'c'n) | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Chalker, Mrs. Lynda | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Holland, Philip (Carlton) |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) | Hooson, Tom |
| Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S) | Hordern, Peter |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Howell,Rt Hon D. (G'ldf'd) |
| Clegg, Sir Walter | Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) |
| Cockeram, Eric | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Colvin, Michael | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Cope, John | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Cormack, Patrick | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) |
| Costain, Sir Albert | Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Jessel, Toby |
| Critchley, Julian | Johnson Smith, Geoffrey |
| Crouch, David | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Dean, Paul (North Somerset) | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Kershaw, Sir Anthony |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Dunlop, John | Kitson, Sir Timothy |
| Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | Knight, Mrs Jill |
| Durant, Tony | Knox, David |
| Dykes, Hugh | Lamont, Norman |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Lang, Ian |
| Eggar, Tim | Latham, Michael |
| Elliott, Sir William | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Emery, Sir Peter | Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel |
| Eyre, Reginald | Lee, John |
| LeMarchant, Spencer | Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW) |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Rossi, Hugh |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Rost, Peter |
| Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo) | Royle, Sir Anthony |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Loveridge, John | St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N. |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Scott, Nicholas |
| McCrindle, Robert | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) |
| MacKay, John (Argyll) | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Macmillan, Rt Hon M. | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury) | Shepherd, Richard |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) | Shersby, Michael |
| Madel, David | Silvester, Fred |
| Major, John | Sims, Roger |
| Marlow, Antony | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Speed, Keith |
| Marten, Rt Hon Neil | Speller, Tony |
| Mates, Michael | Spence, John |
| Mather, Carol | Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) |
| Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Mawby, Ray | Sproat, Iain |
| Mawhinney, DrBrian | Squire, Robin |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Mayhew, Patrick | Stevens, Martin |
| Mellor, David | Stewart, A. (E Renfrewshire) |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Stokes, John |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Mills, Pete (West Devon) | Taylor, Teddy (S' end E) |
| Moate, Roger | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Monro, SirHector | Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Thompson, Donald |
| Moore, John | Thorne, Neil (Ilford South) |
| Morgan,Geraint | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Morris, M. (N'hampton S) | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath) |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Trippier, David |
| Mudd, David | Trotter, Neville |
| Murphy, Christopher | van Straubenzee, Sir W. |
| Myles, David | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Neale, Gerrard | Viggers, Peter |
| Needham, Richard | Waddington, David |
| Nelson, Anthony | Wakeham, John |
| Neubert, Michael | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Newton, Tony | Walker, Rt Hon P.(W'cester) |
| Normanton, Tom | Walker, B. (Perth) |
| Onslow, Cranley | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D. |
| Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S. | Wall, Sir Patrick |
| Page, Richard (SW Herts) | Waller, Gary |
| Parkinson, Rt Hon Cecil | Ward, John |
| Parris, Matthew | Warren, Kenneth |
| Patten, Christopher (Bath) | Watson, John |
| Patten, John (Oxford) | Wells, Bowen |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Pawsey, James | Wheeler, John |
| Percival, Sir Ian | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Pink, R. Bonner | Whitney, Raymond |
| Porter, Barry | Wickenden, Keith |
| Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Prior, Rt Hon James | Wilkinson, John |
| Proctor, K. Harvey | Williams, D. (Montgomery) |
| Raison, Rt Hon Timothy | Wolfson, Mark |
| Rathbone, Tim | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Rhodes James, Robert | |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Mr. Robert Boscawen and Mr. Peter Brooke. |
| Rifkind, Malcolm | |
| Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey |
§ Question accordingly negatived.