HC Deb 04 July 1979 vol 969 cc1502-19

Again considered in Committee.

Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.

Mr. Rees

I turn to the intervention of the hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. Johnston).

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon

I have been trying to do the sum posed by the Minister of State. On the basis of the information that he gave us, does it not mean that on a 10p increase per gallon the reduction in consumption will be minuscule? Does that not undermine some of the arguments for introducing a 10p increase?

Mr. Rees

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman, but I should prefer not to respond to his figures. I will look at it more carefully if he wishes and write to him about it. I would not trust my own mathematics or faculties at this hour of the night.

It was inevitable that someone in this debate would ask how a rather similar debate was conducted a little more than two years ago, on 4 April 1977, when the right hon. Member for Leeds, East proposed increases in petrol duty. Liberal Members evidently detect a faint inconsistency between the position of the Conservative Party now and then. Let me endeavour to reassure hon. Gentlemen, if I can, by reading a short passage from Hansard of 9 May 1977, quoting from a speech by my right hon. and learned Friend now the Chancellor of the Exchequer: The Government have pre-eminently selected the wrong mix to bring before the House. We are not asking for motorists and petrol prices to be exempted altogether from the burden of indirect taxation. That would be to go back a long way. Nor do we ask that they should be exempt from the burden of taxation in a general switch from direct to indirect taxation. However the Government have brought forward a package in which motorists have been selected as the special victims of the switch. …"—[Official Report, 9 May 1977; Vol. 931, c. 990.] Hon. Members will see at once, therefore, the basis on which we can distinguish what we propose today and what was proposed by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East on that occasion. I hope that that goes some way to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest (Mr. NcNairWilson), who has a long and honourable record of opposition to increases in petrol duties. He will realise that the situation is not precisely the same and perhaps he will be able to reconsider his position on this occasion, recognising that we have not singled out motorists for a swingeing impost. It is part of a calculated shift from direct to indirect taxation.

I am tempted, though I do not think that the Committee would bear with me, to recall what the right hon. Member for Leeds, East said on that occasion. I could have quoted him almost word for word and that would, I believe, have supported what we are attempting to do now.

The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), courteous as always, asked me another question. I am always staggered by the range of his interest and knowledge. On this occasion we move from the corruption of the stone facades of West Lothian to the distribution of oil. I hope that the hon. Member will not think me discourteous if I do not respond to the question, which falls more within the responsibilities of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy. I do not think that I could do justice to the question, nor, if he will allow me to say so, is it directly relevant to the proposals that we are debating.

Mr. Dalyell

It was a question that was put by no fewer than four Members, on both sides of the House, during the debate. I repeat that it is of great urgency to those of us who represent country areas.

Mr. Rees

I entirely appreciate the motives that led the hon. Gentleman to put the question to me and led other hon. Members to raise it. I would only plead that my responsibilities are rather more limited. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will take note of the important points that have been made, and I do not doubt that the hon. Gentleman would prefer a more authoritative answer from my right hon. Friend to a perhaps not entirely considered response from somebody who has no particular responsibilities in that respect.

I return now to the amendments. The amendment moved for the Liberal Party by the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles is rather tentative. If Liberal Members are enamoured of the idea of indexation, I suggest that they should look with more favour on the Government's proposals, since they go a little further down that route than their amendment No. 7 does.

As for amendment No. 23 and new clause 10, spoken to so persuasively by the hon. Member for Gateshead, West, I suggest that the hon. Gentleman is perhaps following the interest that he pursued when at the Department of Transport and that on this occasion what we propose will be of more advantage to the country. Of course, it does not rule out proper consideration of a diminution or phasing out of vehicle excise duty, but it will be more to the advantage of the country as a whole, and of motorists in particular, for the Committee to approve the increases proposed by the Government instead of the rather tenuous proposals embodied in amendment No. 23 and new clause 10.

On that basis, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not be disposed to press his amendment to a Division, recognising that there will be an opportunity to consider all these issues again when my right hon. Friend has completed his review of the vehicle excise duty.

Mr. Horam

First, on a procedural point, Mr. Crawshaw, I hope that it will be possible to have a separate vote on amendment No. 23 after we have voted on the Liberal amendment No. 7.

As for the general tenor of the Minister's remarks, I can only say that he has not answered the central case which we have advanced. The point of that case is that it is wrong to impose this gratuitous tax increase when world prices are moving up as quickly as they are at the moment. Irrespective of the Budget increase, we had an increse, in effect, of 35p in the price of four-star petrol in this country over the past six months. The Government have now imposed a further increase of 10p of their own accord.

The Government argue that they are doing that to cut back demand. Indeed, this was the point made by the Prime Minister in response to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition earlier this week. But our argument is that OPEC is already doing that job for them. Moreover, this point has been made not just from these Benches. It was made by the hon. Member for New Forest (Mr. McNair-Wilson) and by other hon. Members on the Government side. OPEC is doing the job without further help from the British Government.

The pretentious of this tax to be a conservation measure are bogus. It is simply a revenue-raising measure, and as such it is on all fours with the increase in VAT to 15 per cent. It is made necessary by the Government's commitment to cut income tax by 3p in the pound. That is the logic of their position and that is how it remains.

It is a harsh impost. It will hit the poor. As was said by many hon. Members on both sides, the business man will not be affected by the increase. The persons most affected will be those who have no alternative but to go by car to work. They will be the heaviest sufferers from an impost of this kind. Moreover, it will fuel inflation and it will steepen recession. And it will do all these things without even fitting into the Government's philosophy, because, as the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) pointed out, it is not even an application of market forces; it is an interference with market forces.

I believe, therefore, that what the Government have done will begin to mobilise the men of this country against them, just as the VAT increases have mobilised the women. I am not surprised that this Government's political honeymoon has been the shortest in post-war history. The Minister of State has declined to reconsider his position on this tax, which many hon. Members on both sides have asked him to do, and we must therefore vote for amendment No. 23.

Mr. Richard Wainwright (Colne Valley)

There are many topics debated in the House of Commons that illustrate the dangers and sometimes the hollow futility of adversary politics, but no subject illustrates the dangers and futility more than debates on petrol duties. During the past 35 years, for example, the alternating parties in Government have increased petrol duties only to be hotly opposed by the alternating parties in Opposition. Each party has in turn used virtually the same arguments against the adversary party. Tonight is no exception. I do not accept for a moment the Minister of State's claim that his action in increasing petrol duties this year is wholly consistent with the Conservative Party's opposition to Labour's increase of petrol duties in 1977.

The Minister of State had the cheek to say that in 1977 the Conservative Party objected to the motorist being singled out for punishment. However, that is exactly what the Government have done this year. There was no increase proposed in the excise duties on alcohol or tobacco—merely a heavy increase in the excise duty on petrol. One of the many ways in which we could reduce the sham of adversary politics would be to make provision for automatic indexation of the specific excise duties that my right hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) emphasised when introducing amendment No. 7.

The Minister of State, who has a reputation for impudence in this Chamber, made the extraordinary statement that the Government were making a meritorious revalorisation of the petrol duties. That is to sidestep the whole argument of automatic provision for indexation according to a strict formula. The Government thought of a number, increased revenue and blamed revalorisation. That is a worthless argument. The Minister of State seeks to dress up the 10p increase as a revalorisation. The hon. and learned Gentleman thought of the number first and the excuse of re-valorisation subsequently.

The debate has been valuable in smoking out completely the false attribute claimed in the Budget Statement for this savage increase. It was claimed to be a meritorious, virtuous and pious weapon, designed to reduce consumption. I am sure that we are all indebted to the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) for effectively wiping out that argument. The right hon. Gentleman reduced the Minister to the feeble defence that perhaps market forces would reduce the consumption of petrol sufficiently, but at least this year's increase in duty would help to do it rather more quickly.

If that is the Government's defence of the 10p increase, it seems that the increase is merely an acceleration in the time scale of the reduction in demand. It follows logically that next year they will remove the temporary accelerator, as it will not be needed. According to the Government's gospel, market forces will have caught up, aided by the temporary boost that they claim skilfully to have introduced into the Budget. I hope that we can look forward confidently to the removal of the impost next year.

10.15 p.m.

As my right hon. Friend made clear, the amendment is based on the principle of automatic indexation. We argue that the additional revenue should be gained by the indexation of the specific excises on alcohol and tobacco. We tabled the amendment confident in the knowledge that the Treasury team, when in Opposition, was a group of fervent advocates of indexing the whole tax system. I do not wish to weary the Committee with more than one quotation, but regardless of the wishes of Conservative Members—I am sure that they know how embarrassing my quotation will be—they will get one.

On 25 July the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson), who was one of the Shadow Treasury team, said: I have time and again consistently stated that I am in favour of the same form of indexation being applied to specific duties. I have made no secret of it. If my hon. Friend will read the speech I made in the Budget debate, he will see that I dealt in specific terms with the"— indexation of the— petrol duty. If my hon. Friend will read the speeches of our right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) —the Shadow Chancellor— he will see that for some time he has been making powerful speeches pointing out the evils of an unindexed tax system."—[Official Report, 25 July 1977; Vol. 936, c. 109.] I was disappointed that exactly a week ago tonight in the debate on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill the Minister of State, although he could not deny his colleagues' enthusiasm for indexation, took refuge in an obscure sentence. He said: Formal indexation would create technical difficulties, and perhaps we can deal with that subject in Committee."—[Official Report, 27 June 1979; Vol. 969, c. 577.] I took the precaution of reminding the Minister of State of that by letter earlier this afternoon, yet tonight he refuses to return to the subject in Committee. He made an extraordinary excuse that we had spent a long time on this subject in Committee and that there was no time to go into the offer that he made a week ago. I hope that the Minister of State, on reflection, will feel that we are entitled to some amends for his extraordinary behaviour. The House and its procedures would benefit enormously from the automatic indexation of the various specific excise duties, just as it benefited enormously from the successful Rooker-Wise amendment for the automatic indexation of the personal allowances for income tax. The Liberal amendment proposes such an indexation. On those grounds, I commend it to the Committee.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 37, Noes 295.

Division No. 43] AYES [10.18 p.m.
Allaun, Frank Carter-Jones, Lewis Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)
Alton, David Clark, David (South Shields) Forrester, John
Anderson, Donald Conlan, Bernard Grimond, Rt Hon J.
Bray, Dr Jeremy Cryer, Bob Heffer, Eric S.
Canavan, Dennis Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) Howells, Geraint
Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Newens, Stanley Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Kilfedder, James A. Prescott, John Weetch, Ken
Kilroy-Silk, Robert Robert, Gwilym (Cannock) Wigley, Dafydd
Lambie, David Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East)
Lamond, James Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Skinner, Dennis TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Mckelvey, William Stewart, Rt Hon Donald (W Isles) Mr. A. J. Beith and
Miller, Dr M. S. (East Kilbride) Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) Mr. David Penhaligon.
Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) Torney, Tom
NOES
Adley, Robert du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Lamont, Norman
Aitken, Johathan Dunn, Robert (Dartford) Lang, Ian
Alexander, Richard Durant, Tony Langford-Holt, Sir John
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Dykes, Hugh Latham, Michael
Ancram, Michael Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Lawrence, Ivan
Arnold, Tom Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke) Lawson, Nigel
Aspinwall, Jack Eggar, Timothy Lee, John
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Elliott, Sir William Le Marchant, Spencer
Atkins, Robert (Preston North) Emery, Peter Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East) Eyre, Reginald Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Fairgrieve, Russell Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Faith, Mrs Sheila Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo)
Banks, Robert Fell, Anthony Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Fenner, Mrs Peggy Loveridge, John
Bell, Ronald Finsberg, Geoffrey Luce, Richard
Bendall, Vivian Fisher, Sir Nigel Lyell, Nicholas
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N) McCrindle, Robert
Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon) Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Macfarlane, Neil
Benyon, W. (Buckingham) Fookes, Miss Janet MacGregor, John
Berry, Hon Anthony Forman, Nigel MacKay, John (Argyll)
Best, Keith Fowler, Rt Hon Norman Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)
Bevan, David Gilroy Fox, Marcus McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)
Biffen, Rt Hon John Fraser, Peter (South Angus) McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)
Biggs-Davison, John Fry, Peter McQuarrie, Albert
Blackburn, John Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. Madel, David
Blaker, Peter Gardiner, George (Reigate) Major, John
Body, Richard Gardner, Edward (South Fylde) Marland, Paul
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian Marlow, Tony
Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West) Glyn, Dr Alan Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Bowden, Andrew Goodhart, Philip Marten, Neil (Banbury)
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Goodlad, Alastair Mates, Michael
Bright, Graham Gorst, John Mather, Carol
Brinton, Tim Gower, Sir Raymond Maude, Rt Hon Angus
Brittan, Leon Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Mawby, Ray
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Gray, Hamish Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Brooker, Hon Peter Grieve, Percy Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Brotherton, Michael Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds) Mayhew, Patrick
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe) Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) Mellor, David
Browne, John (Winchester) Grist, Ian Meyer, Sir Anthony
Bruce-Gardyne, John Grylls, Michael Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch)
Bryan, Sir Paul Gummer, John Selwyn Mills, Peter (West Devon)
Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll) Miscampbell, Norman
Buck, Antony Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Budgen, Nick Hampson, Dr Keith Monro, Hector
Bulmer, Esmond Hannam, John Montgomery, Fergus
Burden, F. A. Haselhurst, Alan Moore, John
Butcher, John Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Morgan, Geraint
Butler, Hon Adam Hawksley, Warren Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth)
Cadbury, Jocelyn Heddle, John Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes)
Carlisle, John (Luton West) Henderson, Barry Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Hicks, Robert Mudd, David
Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn) Hingins, Rt Hon Terence L. Murphy, Christopher
Chalker, Mrs. Lynda Hill, James Myles, David
Channon, Paul Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham) Neale, Gerrard
Chapman, Sydney Holland, Philip (Carlton) Neubert, Michael
Churchill, W. S. Hooson, Tom Newton, Tony
Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Hordern, Peter Normanton, Tom
Clark, Dr William (Craydon South) Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Nott, Rt Hon John
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs Sally
Cockeram, Eric Hunt, David (Wirral) Osborn, John
Colvin, Michael Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Page, John (Harrow, West)
Cormack, Patrick Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)
Corrie, John Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick Parkinson, Cecil
Costain, A. P. Jessel, Toby Parris, Matthew
Cranborne, Viscount Johnson Smith, Geoffrey Patten, Christopher (Bath)
Critchey, Julian Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Patten, John (Oxford)
Crouch, David Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Pattie, Geoffrey
Dean, Paul (North Somerset) Kaberry, Sir Donald Pawsey, James
Dickens, Geoffrey Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Percival, Sir Ian
Dodsworth, Geoffrey Kimball, Marcus Pollock, Alexander
Dorrell, Stephen King, Rt Hon Tom Porter, George
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Kitson, Sir Timothy Price, David (Eastleigh)
Dover, Denshore Knox, David Proctor, K. Harvey
Pym, Rt Hon Francis Speed, Keith Viggers, Peter
Raison, Timothy Speller, Tony Waddington, David
Rathbone, Tim Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) Wakeham, John
Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire) Waldegrave, Hon William
Rees-Davies, W. R. Sproat, Iain Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek
Renton, Tim Squire, Robin Wall, Patrick
Rhodes James, Robert Stainton, Keith Waller, Gary
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Stanbrook, Ivor Walters, Dennis
Ridley, Hon Nicholas Stanley, John Ward, John
Ridsdale, Julian Steen, Anthony Watson, John
Rifkind, Malcolm Stevens, Martin Wells, John (Maidstone)
Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) Wells, Bowen (Hert'rd & Stev'nage)
Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire) Wheeler, John
Rossi, Hugh Stokes, John Whitney, Raymond
Rost, Peter Stradling Thomas, J. Wickenden, Keith
Royle, Sir Anthony Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW) Wiggin, Jerry
Sainsbury, Hon Timothy Tebbit, Norman Wilkinson, John
St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Normar Temple-Morris, Peter Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery)
Scott, Nicholas Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S) Winterton, Nicholas
Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) Thompson, Donald Wolfson, Mark
Shelton, William (Streatham) Thorne, Neil (Ilford South) Young, Sir George (Acton)
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Thornton, Malcolm Younger, Rt Hon George
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'hills) Townend, John (Bridlington)
Shersby, Michael Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Silvester, Fred Trippier, David Mr. John Cope and
Skeet, T. H. H. Trotter, Neville Mr. Robert Boscawen
Smith, Dudley (War. and Leam'ton) Vaughan, Dr Gerard

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed: No. 23, in page 2, line 31, leave out '£0.0810' and insert '£0.0735'.—[Mr. Horam.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 251, Noes 299.

Division No.44] AYES [10.30 p.m.
Abse, Leo Davidson, Arthur Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)
Adams, Allen Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) Hardy, Peter
Allaun, Frank Davies, E. Hudson (Caerphilly) Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Alton, David Davies, Ifor (Gower) Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith
Anderson, Donald Davis, Clinton (Hackney Central) Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford) Haynes, Frank
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ernest Deakins, Eric Healey, Rt Hon Denis
Ashton, Joe Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Heffer, Eric S.
Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham) Dempsey, James Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Dixon, Donald Home Robertson, John
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Dobson, Frank Homewood, William
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) Dormand, Jack Hooley, Frank
Beith, A. J. Douglas, Dick Horam, John
Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood Dubs, Alfred Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm'H)
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Duffy, A. E. P. Howells, Geraint
Bidwell. Sydney Dunlop, John Huckfield, Les
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Dunnett, Jack Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur (M'brough) Eastham, Ken Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Bradley, Tom Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) Janner, Hon Greville
Bray, Dr Jeremy Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire) Jay, Rt Hon Douglas
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) John, Brynmor
Brown, Ronald W. (Hackney S) Ennals, Rt Hon David Johnson, James (Hull West)
Buchan, Norman Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Johnston, Russell (Inverness)
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Evans, John (Newton) Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda)
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Ewing, Harry Jones, Barry (East Flint)
Campbell, Ian Field, Frank Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Campbell-Savours, Dale Fitch, Alan Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Canavan, Dennis Flannery, Martin Kerr, Russell
Cant, R. B. Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Kilfedder, James A.
Carmichael, Neil Foot, Rt Hon Michael Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Carter-Jones, Lewis Ford, Ben Kinnock, Neil
Cartwright, John Forrester, John Lambie, David
Clark, David (South Shields) Foster, Derek Lamborn, Harry
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Foulkes, George Lamond, James
Cohen, Stanley Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood) Leadbitter, Ted
Coleman, Donald Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Leighton, Ronald
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Garrett, John (Norwich S) Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)
Conlan, Bernard Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Cook, Robin F. George, Bruce Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Cowans, Harry Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John Lyon, Alexander (York)
Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill) Ginsburg, David Lyons, Edward (Bradford West)
Crowther, J. S. Golding, John McCartney, Hugh
Cryer, Bob Gourlay, Harry McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Cunliffe, Lawrence Graham, Ted McElhone, Frank
Cunningham, George (Islington S) Grant, John (Islington C) McGuire, Michael (Ince)
Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven) Grimond, Rt Hon J. McKay, Allen (Penistone)
Dalyell, Tam Hamilton, James (Bothwell) McKelvey, William
MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Parry, Robert Stott, Roger
Maclennan, Robert Penhaligon, David Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
McMahon, Andrew Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch (S Down) Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West)
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, Central) Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
McNally, Thomas Prescott, John Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
McWilliam, John Price, Christopher (Lewisham West) Thomas, Mike (Newcastle East)
Magee, Bryan Race, Reg Thomas, Dr Roger (Carmarthen)
Marks, Kenneth Radice, Giles Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n) Richardson, Miss Jo Tilley, John
Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North) Torney, Tom
Marshall, Jim (Leicester South) Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) U-win, Rt Hon Tom
Martin, Michael (Gl'gow. Springb'rn) Robertson, George Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Maxton, John Rodgers, Rt Hon William Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Maynard, Miss Joan Rooker, J. W. Walker, Rt Hon Harold (Doncaster)
Meacher, Michael Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) Watkins, David
Mellish, Rt Hon Robert Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Weetch, Ken
Mikardo, Ian Ross, Wm. (Londonderry) Wellbeloved, James
Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Rowlands, Ted Welsh, Michael
Miller, Dr M. S. (East Kilbride) Ryman, John White, Frank R. (Bury & Radcliffe)
Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) Sandelson, Neville Whitehead, Phillip
Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) Sever, John Whitlock, William
Molyneaux, James Sheerman, Barry Wigley, Dafyd
Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wythenshawe) Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A'ton-u-L) Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Morris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw) Shore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop) Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Moyle, Rt Hon Roland Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East)
Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick Silverman, Julius Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)
Newens, Stanley Skinner, Dennis Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire) Winnick, David
Ogden Eric Snape, Peter Woolmer, Kenneth
O'Halloran, Michael Soley, Clive Wrigglesworth, Ian
O'Neill, Martin Spearing, Nigel Wright, Sheila
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Spriggs, Leslie Young, David (Bolton East)
Owen, Rt Hon Dr David Stallard, A. W.
Palmer, Arthur Steel, Rt Hon David TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Park, George Stewart, Rt Hon Donald (W Isles) Mr. George Morton and
Parker, John Stoddart, David Mr. Thomas Cox
NOES
Adley, Robert Burden, F. A. Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N)
Aitken, Jonathan Butcher, John Fletcher-Cooke, Charles
Alexander, Richard Butler, Hon Adam Fookes, Miss Janet
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Cadbury, Jocelyn Forman, Nigel
Ancram, Michael Carlisle, John (Luton West) Fowler, Rt Hon Norman
Arnold, Tom Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Fox, Marcus
Aspinwall, Jack Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn) Fraser, Peter (South Angus)
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Chalker, Mrs. Lynda Fry, Peter
Atkins, Robert (Preston North) Channon, Paul Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.
Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East) Chapman, Sydney Gardiner, George (Reigate)
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Churchill, W. S. Gardner, Edward (South Fylde)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian
Banks, Robert Clark, Dr William (Croydon South) Glyn, Dr Alan
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Goodhart, Philip
Bell, Ronald Clegg, Walter Goodlad, Alastair
Bendell, Vivian Cockeram, Eric Gorst, John
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) Colvin, Michael Gow, Ian
Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon) Cormack, Patrick Gower, Sir Raymond
Benyon, W. (Buckingham) Corrie, John Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)
Berry, Hon Anthony Costain, A. P. Gray, Hamish
Best, Keith Cranborne, Viscount Grieve, Percy
Bevan, David Gilroy Critchley, Julian Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds)
Biffen, Rt Hon John Crouch, David Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Biggs-Davison, John Dean, Paul (North Somerset) Grist, Ian
Blackburn, John Dickens, Geoffrey Grylls, Michael
Blaker, Peter Dodsworth, Geoffrey Gummer, John Selwyn
Body, Richard Dorrell, Stephen Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll)
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West) Dover, Denshore Hampson, Dr Keith
Bowden, Andrew du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Hannam, John
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Dunn, Robert (Dartford) Haselhurst, Alan
Bright, Graham Durant, Tony Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael
Brinton, Tim Dykes, Hugh Hawksley, Warren
Brittan, Leon Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Hayhoe, Barney
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke) Heddle, John
Brooke, Hon Peter Egger, Timothy Henderson, Barry
Brotherton, Michael Elliott, Sir William Hicks, Robert
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe) Emery, Peter Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Browne, John (Winchester) Eyre, Reginald Hill, James
Bruce-Gardyne, John Fairgrieve, Russell Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham)
Bryan, Sir Paul Faith, Mrs Sheila Holland, Philip (Carlton)
Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick Fell, Anthony Hooson, Tom
Buck, Antony Fenner, Mrs Peggy Hordern, Peter
Budgen, Nick Finsberg, Geoffrey Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Bulmer, Esmond Fisher, Sir Nigel Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)
Hunt, David (Wirral) Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Skeet, T. H. H.
Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Monro, Hector Smith, Dudley (War. and Leam'ton)
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick Montgomery, Fergus Speed, Keith
Jessel, Toby Moore, John Speller, Tony
Johnson Smith, Geoffrey Morgan, Geraint Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth) Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire)
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes) Sproat, Iain
Kaberry, Sir Donald Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester) Squire, Robin
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Mudd, David Stainton, Keith
Kimball, Marcus Murphy, Christopher Stanbrook, Ivor
King, Rt Hon Tom Myles, David Stanley, John
Kitson, Sir Timothy Neale, Gerrard Steen, Anthony
Knox, David Neubert, Michael Stevens, Martin
Lamont, Norman Newton, Tony Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Lang, Ian Normanton, Tom Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire)
Langford-Holt, Sir John Nott, Rt Hon John Stokes, John
Latham, Michael Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs Sally Stradling Thomas, J.
Lawrence, Ivan Osborn, John Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW)
Lawson, Nigel Page, John (Harrow, West) Tebbit, Norman
Lee, John Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) Temple-Morris, Peter
Le Merchant, Spencer Parkinson, Cecil Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Parris, Matthew Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S)
Lester, Jim (Beeston) Patten, Christopher (Bath) Thompson, Donald
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Patten, John (Oxford) Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Lloyd, fan (Havant & Waterloo) Pattie, Geoffrey Thornton, Malcolm
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Pawsey, James Townend, John (Bridlington)
Loveridge, John Percival, Sir Ian Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)
Luce, Richard Pollock, Alexander Trippier, David
Lyell, Nicholas Porter, George Trotter Neville
McCrindle, Robert Price, David (Eastleigh) Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Macfarlane, Neil Proctor, K. Harvey Viggers, Peter
MacGregor, John Pym, Rt Hon Francis Waddington, David
MacKay, John (Argyll) Raison, Timothy Wakeham, John
Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Rathbone, Tim Waldegrave, Hon William
McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury) Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek
McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) Rees-Davies, W. R. Wall, Patrick
McOuarrie, Albert Renton, Tim Waller, Gary
Madel, David Rhodes James, Robert Walters, Dennis
Major, John Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Ward, John
Marland, Paul Ridley, Hon Nicholas Watson, John
Marlow, Tony Ridsdale, Julian Wells, John (Maidstone)
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Rifkind, Malcolm Wells, Bowen (Hert'rd & Stev'nage)
Marten, Neil (Banbury) Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) Wheeler, John
Mates, Michael Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Whitney, Raymond
Mather, Carol Rossi, Hugh Wickenden, Keith
Maude, Rt Hon Angus Rost, Peter Wiggin, Jerry
Mawby, Ray Royle, Sir Anthony Wilkinson, John
Mawhinney, Dr Brian Sainsbury, Hon Timothy Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery)
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Normam Winterton, Nicholas
Mayhew, Patrick Scott, Nicholas Wolfson, Mark
Mellor, David Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) Young, Sir George (Acton)
Meyer, Sir Anthony Shelton, William (Streatham) Younger, Rt Hon George
Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch) Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Mills, Iain (Meriden) Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'bills) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Mills, Peter (West Devon) Shersby, Michael Mr. Robert Boscawen and
Miscampbell, Norman Silvester, Fred Mr. John Cope.

Question accordingly negatived.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Charles R. Morris (Manchester, Openshaw)

I seek elucidation from the Minister of State about the impact that the clause may have on domestic users of oil for central heating purposes. Those with oil-burning central heating systems may have been encouraged when the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his Budget Statement: I am not, however, increasing the duty for burning oil and for domestic paraffin, which is the oil used most commonly in the home, particularly by pensioners."—[Official Report, 12 June 1979; Vol. 968, c. 254.] However, in the brief issued by the Treasury, that undertaking was interpreted to mean, in terms of clause 2, that the exception for the increase in duty is that kerosenes that include domestic paraffin and over two-thirds of oil that is normally used for domestic central heating are exempt.

Does it follow that one-third will bear the impost envisaged by the tax changes? Will the Minister indicate the burden that will be imposed on householders who have domestic oil-fired central heating systems? It should be borne in mind that those luckless householders have carried a burden of continuing increases in the cost of oil for domestic central heating over the past 12 or 18 months.

10.45 p.m.

A report in today's edition of The Sun indicates that these families might not he in a position to receive any such fuel during the forthcoming winter. It refers to warnings issued by Britain's oil distributors who have told the Minister of State, Department of Energy that shortages in paraffin and heating oil are more critical than the squeeze on petrol. Those householders could be affected if my interpretation of clause 2 is correct. Therefore, I should be grateful if the Minister could clear up that matter.

Will oil for central heating purposes be increased as a result of the clause? I hope that the Minister will bear in mind that many householders are obliged to use oil because they live in geographically isolated areas where other forms of heating are not immediately available.

Mr. Peter Rees

I shall respond briefly to the right hon. Gentleman's comments. The clause increases the duty on heavy oil that is not used as road fuel and furnace fuel that is used by approved persons from 0.55p per litre, or 2.5p per gallon, to 0.66p per litre, or 3p per gallon. The increase in kerosene applies only to aviation turbine fuel. The duty on other kerosene remains at 0.22p per litre, or 1p per gallon. I cannot be more specific, because various sorts of heating use various sorts of fuel. I hope that that answers with sufficient particularity the hon. Gentleman's point.

Mr. Charles R. Morris

The Minister's statement will not have encouraged householders with oil-fired central heating. I am not concerned for the affluent, but I am concerned for the lower-income householders who have already borne an increasing financial burden.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

To report Progress and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. Biffen.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again tomorrow.