§ 3.37 p.m.
§ Mr. Victor Goodhew (St. Albans)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to revise the arrangement for the granting of aid to overseas countries; and for purposes connected therewith.Overseas aid can be a most controversial subject. Views on its effectiveness and value range over a wide sphere. At one extreme there are those who cannot see the sense of Her Majesty's Government borrowing vast sums at high interest rates only to lend to developing countries at low rates of interest, or free of interest altogether. They would say that it makes more sense for the wealthy countries that lend to us to lend their money direct to the developing countries.At the other extreme, there are those who argue that we have a duty, at no 1453 matter what cost to our economy, to provide massive aid to the developing countries, even if that money may be used directly or indirectly to the disadvantage of our interests. There is a wide range of opinion between those extremes.
I do not propose to enter into that wide debate this afternoon, although the abyssmal speech of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on 6th February tempts me to do so. The hon. Gentleman referred to aid to Mozambique and said:
in all cases we have received assurances, which the Government find totally satisfactory from the Mozambique Government, that British assistance will be used for peaceful purposes only."—[Official Report, 6th February 1978; Vol. 943; c. 1089.]How naïve can the hon. Gentleman be? Surely he knows that £20 million loaned interest-free for 25 years to that country must make it easier for the Mozambique Government to train and harbour terrorists who murder innocent Rhodesians, black and white. However, I must not be diverted from the purpose of my Bill by the naivety and stupidity of Ministers.I am attempting a minor and limited change that I believe will be acceptable to most people. I believe that Private Members' Bills should always be drafted with modest objects in view, objects that are likely to commend themselves to hon. Members on both sides of the House.
My aim is simply that where this country is giving aid to another country and that country's Government nationalise a British company, or expropriate the assets of a British company or British subject and refuse to pay compensation, it shall be made mandatory for Her Majesty's Government to reduce the aid paid to that country by the amount of the compensation unpaid. As a private Member, I have no power to legislate for the payment of the money thus saved but I would hope that any honourable British Government would pay it to the company or subject deprived of their rightful dues.
This Bill is prompted by a case history in the Sunday Telegraph of 8th January. I can do no better than to read the report, which runs as follows:
Beira Town Sites, the British company which owned and sold land in Mozambique since 1903, has had its assets stripped.The Frelimo Government of President Machel has confiscated its property, worth about £450,000. Vivian Oury, chairman of 1454 the company, has been advised by our Foreign Office to press for compensation through the Mozambique courts.But there is no longer any private legal practice in Mozambique. In any case a Government decree specifically precludes foreigners from receiving compensation.This is the country to which Judith Hart, Minister for Overseas Development, has obligingly agreed to provide loans of £20 million for 25 years, interest free.Her compassion does not extend to British shareholders. She has turned down a request from Beira Town Sites to offset the £450,000 of expropriated assets against her generous loan of British taxpayers' money.This is not the first case. Her Department says that representations to Frelimo would be 'provocative and counter-productive' ".We come to a later report in The Daily Telegraph headed "Keeping Mozambique Sweet". This reads:In a drop of rain can he seen the colours of the sun.' A reader put a query recently to the Sunday Telegraph City page. His small shareholding in a Mozambique land-owning firm had been nationalised by the Frelimo dictatorship under a decree which specifically excluded compensation. Was there any way he could seek redress through the British Government? The reply was both discouraging and revealing. The Foreign Office had made representations to the Mozambique Government about the principle of compensation. In the meantime, it advises expropriated owners to seek compensation 'through the legal means available in Mozambique'. But there are no legal means available in Mozambique. Law there is simply the administrative assistant of political power, and the Government has precluded foreigners from compensation.But Britain is providing Mozambique with £20 million in interest-free loans. Might not some of this money be used instead to compensate the plundered investors? To do that, retorts the Ministry of Overseas Development under Mrs. Hart, would be 'provocative and counter-productive'. But what could it provoke? We are in the strong position of having nothing left to be seized in Mozambique. The worst that could happen is that they might refuse to accept our money. And if we are not prepared to risk such slight inconveniences, why should Mozambique concern itself with the Foreign Office's 'representations'?That is one case. I have been told of another, concerning an estate in Egypt where an executor and trustee is still valiantly fighting, with the help of my right hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Atkins), who is the constituency Member. This concerns a Mr. Camplin of Staines. The loss suffered, in this case in 1956, was £1,212. A battle has been going on over all these years. The first interim payment of 5 per cent. 1455 was not made until January 1976–20 years after the loss was sustained. A second interim payment of 5 per cent. was made in December 1977. How long will it take for the money to be repaid, and what will it be worth at the end of it all?There must be many cases of this type. It is wrong that the British Government should not take some action. Many people resent aid being given to certain countries. I do not believe that anyone in this country would resent the withholding of aid from countries to the amount which those countries owe British companies and British subjects for assets which have been nationalised or expropriated. If the Government, who have the power to act in this matter, will not do so, I ask the House to support this Bill which makes it mandatory for the Government to act in the way I have suggested.
§ 3.45 p.m.
§ Miss Joan Lestor (Eton and Slough)I urge the House not to support this Bill on the strength of the flimsy evidence which has been brought before it by the hon. Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew). It is a well-known fact that Conservative Members have never liked the idea of our giving aid to Mozambique. Because they failed to stop that aid, they are now seeking back-door methods of bringing it to an end. The hon. Member began his speech by saying that it seemed that certain people in Government, and others, were prepared to see Britain involved in massive aid—I wish to God some of it were a little more massive—to all sorts of countries, irrespective of the cost to this country and the economic consequences for us.
The hon. Member for St. Albans also raised the question—although he said he did not want to dwell on it—of the situation in any country receiving aid and particularly identified Mozambique. I do not speak for anyone other than myself—although I hope that my hon. Friends will join me in opposing the Bill—when I say that I believe that aid given anywhere in the world should be allotted on the basis that it will enhance the standard of living of those in the recipient country and help to make a long-term 1456 contribution to their well-being. The attitude of the Government in the recipient country and the election of that Government is a matter for that country, except when a denial of human rights is involved. This would call into question the use to which the aid was being put. It is important to stress that, irrespective of where British aid goes, most of it is tied to the purchase of United Kingdom goods and services. Two-thirds of our overseas aid in 1976 was so tied.
Behind the argument about Mozambique lie many other matters. The issue of nationalisation has been raised, suggesting that it is a reason for us to deny Mozambique any further aid. That issue has come up lately because of certain complications which I would not deny have arisen. The hon. Member said that there were no legal means available in Mozambique. I know that the British Government are looking closely at the legal means that exist in Mozambique and are examining the whole question of aid and public ownership to ensure that the issue of compensation is dealt with. It is much more important that this is got straight at the beginning rather than that an attempt should be made to introduce a Bill that will jeopardise the standard of living and the future of a large number of people in Mozambique who are dependent on British aid. I wish that the hon. Gentleman, who keeps interrupting from a sedentary position, would display the good manners he says that his educational background has given him. I did not interrupt his speech. I listened to him closely.
§ Mr. GoodhewThe hon. Lady wrote her speech before hearing me.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton)Order. The hon. Lady must be heard. The hon. Gentleman was heard in silence and the hon. Lady has the right of reply.
§ Miss LestorThe hon. Gentleman claims that I wrote my speech before hearing what he had to say. That does not say much for his ingenuity in producing a speech which I could answer before hearing it. What he said was pretty predictable. I hope that these interruptions will not be counted against my time, because that would be most unfair.
1457 I defended and was pleased by the Government's decision to make aid available to Mozambique. Whatever the problems we may be experiencing at the moment, which I would be glad to see ironed out, on the question of compensation and nationalisation, they do not justify the withdrawal of aid. Mozambique suffered a colonial war for 10 years. It has closed its borders with Southern Rhodesia, and has suffered all the problems arising from the sanctions policy.
§ Mr. GoodhewOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I did not suggest that aid should be withdrawn—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The hon. Lady must be allowed to present her case in her own way.
§ Miss LestorThe hon. Gentleman does not seem to like what I am saying. He made some nasty and unfortunate remarks about Mozambique. I said at the beginning of my speech that he was using back-door methods in order to try to stop aid to Mozambique. I am using the front-door method in order to ensure that Mozambique does get aid. He complained about public ownership and the difficulties over compensation to previous owners. But that is a Government-to-Government argument, not a people-to-people argument.
The people of Mozambique have suffered as a result of sanctions against
§ Southern Rhodesia which they have implemented. They have suffered a 10-year colonial war. They have suffered from incursions by Ian Smith's forces into their territory. They have suffered floods and a whole mass of devastation. I do not want to see them suffer more because we withdraw our aid over problems arising from the question of public ownership.
§ I believe that the Bill is less concerned with the question of compensation than with the whole question of aid to a particular country which many Conservatives have opposed from the moment it was brought into being.
§ One of the lessons we have to learn on the question of aid in particular and all that relates to it is that, if we do not continue our aid programme and try to enhance and raise the standard of living of the people of Mozambique, irrespective of whether they have nationalisation, we shall open the door to the very thing that many hon. Members opposite say they fear—Soviet influence in Africa. I ask the House to reject the Bill.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at Commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 141, Noes 219.
1459| Division No. 102] | AYES | [3.52 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E) | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) | Eyre, Reginald | Hurd, Douglas |
| Awdry, Daniel | Falrgrieve, Russell | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Banks, Robert | Farr, John | James, David |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) | Finsberg, Geoffrey | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Fisher, Sir Nigel | Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) |
| Benyon, W. | Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Jones, Arthur (Daventry) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Jopling, Michael |
| Bitten, John | Fookes, Miss Janet | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Bottomley, Peter | Fox, Marcus | Knight, Mrs Jill |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. | Latham, Michael (Melton) |
| Brotherton, Michael | Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Le Marchant, Spencer |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Glyn, Dr Alan | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Buck, Antony | Goodhart, Philip | Luce, Richard |
| Budgen, Nick | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Gray, Hamish | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Grist, Ian | Mather, Carol |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Clark, William (Croydon S) | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Mawby, Ray |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Hampson, Dr Keith | Mills, Peter |
| Clegg, Walter | Hannam, John | Molyneaux, James |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Monro, Hector |
| Cope, John | Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss | Montgomery, Fergus |
| Cormack, Patrick | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Morgan, Geraint |
| Corrie, John | Holland, Philip | Morris, Michael (Northampton S) |
| Costain, A. P. | Howell, David (Guildford) | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) |
| Neave, Airey | Sainsbury, Tim | Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S) |
| Neubert, Michael | Scott-Hopkins, James | Trotter, Neville |
| Newton, Tony | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Normanton, Tom | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Nott, John | Shersby, Michael | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek |
| Onslow, Cranley | Sims, Roger | Walters, Dennis |
| Osborn, John | Skeet, T. H. H. | Warren, Kenneth |
| Page, Richard (Workington) | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Paisley, Rev Ian | Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield) | Wells, John |
| Parkinson, Cecil | Speed, Keith | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Spence, John | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Price, David (Eastleigh) | Sproat, Iain | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Stainton, Keith | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Stanley, John | Younger, Hon George |
| Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Steen, Anthony (Wavertree) | |
| Rifkind, Malcolm | Stradling Thomas, J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Ross, William (Londonderry) | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) | Mr. Victor Goodhew and |
| Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Tebbit, Norman | Mr. Ian Gow |
| Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) | ||
| NOES | ||
| Allaun, Frank | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Anderson, Donald | Flannery, Martin | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Ashley, Jack | Forrester, John | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Ashton, Joe | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Meacher, Michael |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Freud, Clement | Mendelson, John |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Mikardo, Ian |
| Bain, Mrs Margaret | Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | George, Bruce | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Mitchell, Austin |
| Bates, Alf | Golding, John | Molloy, William |
| Beith, A. J. | Gould, Bryan | Moonman, Eric |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Gourlay, Harry | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Graham, Ted | Morris, Rt Hon Charles R. |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Grant, John (Islington C) | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Boardman, H. | Grocott, Bruce | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Hardy, Peter | Noble, Mike |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Harper, Joseph | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Orbach, Maurice |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Hart, Rt Hon Judith | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Ovenden, John |
| Buchan, Norman | Hayman, Mrs Helene | Owen, Rt Hon Dr David |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Park, George |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Heller, Eric S. | Parker, John |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Hooson, Emlyn | Parry, Robert |
| Campbell, Ian | Horam, John | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Canavan, Dennis | Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H) | Pendry, Tom |
| Carmichael, Neil | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Perry, Ernest |
| Carter, Ray | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Phipps, Dr Colin |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Huckfield, Les | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Cartwright, John | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Radice, Giles |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Richardson, Miss Jo |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Hunter, Adam | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Cohen, Stanley | Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Coleman, Donald | Janner, Greville | Rodgers, George (Chorley) |
| Corbett, Robin | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Rooker, J. W. |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Roper, John |
| Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | John, Brynmor | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Sandelson, Neville |
| Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Sever, John |
| Cryer, Bob | Judd, Frank | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Kaufman, Gerald | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Kelley, Richard | Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) |
| Davidson, Arthur | Kerr, Russell | Skinner, Dennis |
| Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Kinnock, Neil | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Lamborn, Harry | Spearing, Nigel |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Lamond, James | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Dempsey, James | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Doig, Peter | Lipton, Marcus | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald |
| Dormand, J. D. | Litterick, Tom | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| Dunn, James A. | Loyden, Eddie | Stoddart, David |
| Dunnett, Jack | Luard, Evan | Stott, Roger |
| Eadie, Alex | Lyon, Alexander (York) | Surmmerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | McCartney, Hugh | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| English, Michael | McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Ennals, Rt Hon David | McElhone, Frank | Thompson, George |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | MacFarquhar, Roderick | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Maclennan, Robert | Tinn, James |
| Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | McNamara, Kevin | Tomlinson, John |
| Faulds, Andrew | Madden, Max | Torney, Tom |
| Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Urwin, T. W. |
| Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. | White, James (Pollok) | Wilson. Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) | Whitehead, Phillip | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) | Whitlock, William | Woodall, Alec |
| Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | Wigley, Dafydd | Woof, Robert |
| Walker, Terry (Kingswood) | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Ward, Michael | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Watkinson, John | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) | |
| Watt, Hamish | Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Weetch, Ken | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) | Miss Joan Lestor and |
| Welsh, Andrew | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) | Mr. Ioan Evans |
§ Question accordingly negatived.