§ Amendment No. 343 proposed: In page 31, line 31, after "1974", insert 'a Scottish Act.'—[Mr. John Smith.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 235, Noes 15.
491| Division No. 179] | AYES | [5.38 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank | Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | English, Michael |
| Anderson, Donald | Clemitson, Ivor | Ennals, Rt Hon David |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Cohen, Stanley | Evans, John (Newton) |
| Ashley, Jack | Coleman, Donald | Ewing, Harry (Stirling) |
| Ashton, Joe | Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Faulds, Andrew |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Corbett, Robin | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. |
| Atkinson, Norman | Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Flannery, Martin |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Crawshaw, Richard | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Bates, Alf | Cronin, John | Ford, Ben |
| Beith, A. J. | Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Forrester, John |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Cryer, Bob | Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Davidson, Arthur | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Freud, Clement |
| Bishop, Rt Hon Edward | Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) | Garrett, John (Norwich S) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | George, Bruce |
| Boardman, H. | Deakins, Eric | Gilbert, Dr John |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Ginsburg, David |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Dell, Rt Hon Edmund | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Dempsey, James | Gould, Bryan |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Dewar, Donald | Gourlay, Harry |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Doig, Peter | Graham, Ted |
| Buchanan, Richard | Dormand, J. D. | Grant, George (Morpeth) |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Grant, John (Islington C) |
| Campbell, Ian | Duffy, A. E. P. | Grimond, Rt Hon J. |
| Canavan, Dennis | Dunn, James A. | Grocott, Bruce |
| Cant, R. B. | Eadie, Alex | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Edge, Geoff | Hardy, Peter |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | Harper, Joseph |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Hart, Rt Hon Judith | Maynard, Miss Joan | Snape, Peter |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Meacher, Michael | Spearing, Nigel |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Hooley, Frank | Mikardo, Ian | Stallard, A. W. |
| Horam, John | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Mitchell, Austin | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Molloy, William | Stoddart, David |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Moonman, Eric | Stott, Roger |
| Hunter, Adam | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Strang, Gavin |
| Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Strauss, Rt Hon G. R. |
| Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Moyle, Roland | Swain, Thomas |
| Janner, Greville | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Noble, Mike | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Jeger, Mrs Lena | Ogdan, Eric | Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | O'Halloran, Michael | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Johnson, James (Hull West) | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Thorne, Stan (Preston S) |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Padley, Walter | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Pardoe, John | Tierney, Sydney |
| Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Park, George | Tinn, James |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Parker, John | Tomlinson, John |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Parry, Robert | Torney, Tom |
| Judd, Frank | Price, C. (Lewisham W) | Tuck, Raphael |
| Kaufman, Gerald | Price, William (Rugby) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Kelley, Richard | Radice, Giles | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Lambie, David | Richardson, Miss Jo | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Lever, Rt Hon Harold | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Ward, Michael |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) | Watkins, David |
| Litterick, Tom | Robinson, Geoffrey | Watkinson, John |
| Loyden, Eddie | Roderick, Caerwyn | Weitzman, David |
| Luard, Evan | Rodgers, George (Chorley) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) | Rooker, J. W. | White, James (Pollok) |
| Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson | Rose, Paul B. | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| McCartney, Hugh | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Rowlands, Ted | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| McElhone, Frank | Royle, Sir Anthony | Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford) |
| MacFarquhar, Roderick | Ryman, John | Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton) |
| McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Sedgemore, Brian | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Sever, John | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Mackintosh, John P. | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) | Woodall, Alec |
| Maclennan, Robert | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | Woof, Robert |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Shore, Rt Hon Peter | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| McNamara, Kevin | Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Madden, Max | Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) | |
| Magee, Bryan | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES |
| Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Silverman, Julius | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Skinner, Dennis | Mr. Frank R. While. |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) | |
| NOES | ||
| Crawford, Douglas | Ross, William (Londonderry) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Dunlop, John | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) | |
| Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray) | Thompson, George | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Henderson, Douglas | Watt, Hamish | Mrs. Margaret Bain and |
| MacCormick, Iain | Welsh, Andrew | Mr. George Reid |
| Molyneaux, James |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Question put, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill:—
492§ The Committee divided: Ayes 223, Noes 12.
493| Division No. 180] | AYES | [5.51 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank | Boardman, H. | Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) |
| Anderson, Donald | Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Corbett, Robin |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Cox, Thomas (Tooting) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Bradley, Tom | Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) |
| Ashley, Jack | Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Crawshaw, Richard |
| Ashton, Joe | Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Cronin, John |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Buchanan, Richard | Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) |
| Atkinson, Norman | Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Cryer, Bob |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Campbell, Ian | Davidson, Arthur |
| Bates, Alf | Canavan, Dennis | Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) |
| Beith, A. J. | Carmichael, Nell | Davies, Ifor (Gower) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Carter-Jones, Lewis | Deakins, Eric |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Clemitson, Ivor | Dell, Rt Hon Edmund |
| Bishop, Rt Hon Edward | Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Dempsey, James |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Cohen, Stanley | Dewar, Donald |
| Dormand, J. D. | Lever, Rt Hon Harold | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Sever, John |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Litterick, Tom | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) |
| Dunn, James A. | Loyden, Eddie | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Eadie, Alex | Luard, Evan | Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) |
| Edge, Geoff | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson | Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) |
| Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | McCartney, Hugh | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| English, Michael | McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Silverman, Julius |
| Ennals, Rt Hon David | McElhone, Frank | Skinner, Dennis |
| Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | MacFarquhar, Roderick | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Evans, John (Newton) | McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Snape, Peter |
| Faulds, Andrew | Mackintosh, John P. | Spearing, Nigel |
| Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Maclennan, Robert | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Flannery, Martin | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McNamara, Kevin | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Madden, Max | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| Ford, Ben | Magee, Bryan | Stoddart, David |
| Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Stott, Roger |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Strang, Gavin |
| Freud, Clement | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Strauss, Rt Hon G. R. |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| George, Bruce | Maynard, Miss Joan | Swain, Thomas |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Meacher, Michael | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Ginsburg, David | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Gould, Bryan | Mikardo, Ian | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Thorne, Stan (Preston S) |
| Graham, Ted | Mitchell, Austin | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Molloy, William | Tierney, Sydney |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Tinn, James |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Morris, Rt Hon Charles R. | Tomlinson, John |
| Grocott, Bruce | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Torney, Tom |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Moyle, Roland | Tuck, Raphael |
| Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Hardy, Peter | Noble, Mike | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Harper, Joseph | Oakes, Gordon | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Ogden, Eric | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Hart, Rt Hon Judith | O'Halloran, Michael | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Ward, Michael |
| Horam, John | Ovenden, John | Watkins, David |
| Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Padley, Walter | Watkinson, John |
| Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Pardoe, John | Weitzman, David |
| Hunter, Adam | Parker, John | Wellbeloved, James |
| Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) | Parry, Robert | White, James (Pollok) |
| Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) | Price, C. (Lewisham W) | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Price, William (Rugby) | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Janner, Greville | Radice, Giles | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) | Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford) |
| Jeger, Mrs Lena | Richardson, Miss Jo | Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton) |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Johnson, James (Hull West) | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Robinson, Geoffrey | Woodall, Alec |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Roderick, Caerwyn | Woof, Robert |
| Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Rodgers, George (Chorley) | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Rooker, J. W. | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Rose, Paul B. | |
| Judd, Frank | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Kaufman, Gerald | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Mr. Frank R. White and |
| Kelley, Richard | Rowlands, Ted | Mr. Donald Coleman. |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Ryman, John | |
| NOES | ||
| Crawford, Douglas | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) | |
| Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray) | Thompson, George | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Henderson, Douglas | Watt, Hamish | Mrs. Margaret Bain and |
| MacCormick, Iain | Wigley, Dafydd | Mr. Andrew Welsh. |
| Reid, George |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Clause 81, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ 6.0 p.m.
§ Mr. WigleyOn a point of order, Mr. Murton. I seek to raise a point of order of which I have given you prior notice. It concerns a group of amendments to which we shall be coming later, namely, that group starting with Amendment No. 494 103, in Clause 83, and running through to Amendment No. 321 on the selection list. That group concerns the referendum and the way that it will affect Ministers.
Amendment No. 103 provides that if it appears to the Secretary of State that fewer than three-fifths of those voting in the referendum have voted "Yes", he shall lay before Parliament the draft of an order.
495 To that extent, the amendment—in this respect it is different from the terms of the Bill itself—is binding on a Minister of the Crown. Inasmuch as it is binding on a Minister, it is binding on Her Majesty the Queen, since the Minister is acting on behalf of the Queen.
I suggest that the amendment is out of order, in that the Nineteenth Edition of "Erskine May" indicates, on page 523, that amendments should be ruled out of order if they propose changes in legislative procedure which would be contrary to constitutional practice. There is a footnote in which reference is made to what happened on 18th April 1972, when an amendment was selected on the basis specifically of having no binding effect on Government.
I put it to you that the amendments have a binding effect on the Minister and, therefore, on the Queen, and that to this extent they are creating a new parliamentary precedent which would have enormous consequences.
§ The ChairmanI am grateful to the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley) for giving me prior notice of the point of order which he desired to raise.
During the proceedings on the Scotland and Wales Bill of last Session, I ruled that the Referendum Act of 1975 had largely destroyed the basis upon which the previous rulings had been given and that it could not now be held that a referendum, whether consultative or effective, represented a change in legislative procedure which would be contrary to constitutional practice. Following this ruling, a new clause having a mandatory effect was moved to that Bill.
In the light of a certain motion which was subsequently put down in criticism of my ruling, Mr. Speaker was good enough to express his support for the action I had taken in terms which were accepted by the House, and the motion was not moved. The hon. Member will find the reference to this in Hansard of 30th March 1977, columns 538 and 539.
Since that date, an amendment to this Session's Scotland Bill, which contained a mandatory provision similar to that contained in the amendment to which the hon. Member has referred was moved, debated and inserted in the Bill. In the light of these developments, I have no hesitation 496 in ruling that the present amendment is in order.
§ Mr. WigleyI am grateful for that ruling, which clarifies the issues. May I raise two matters of further clarification in order to help us in our deliberations tonight and in any future sittings? In the light of what you have just said, Mr. Murton, is it your ruling that any amendment seeking to bind the House of Commons could be brought forward in any further proceedings on this Bill on Report or on other Bills which may come before the House, and can you say whether your ruling is based on the Scotland and Wales Bill ruling or on the Scotland Bill which is currently before Parliament?
§ The ChairmanI regret to inform the hon. Member that I am not prepared to give a ruling on a hypothetical question.