Commons Sitting of 8 February 1977

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  MESSAGES FROM THE QUEEN

    EARL ATTLEE (MEMORIAL)
    The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
    I have received your Address praying that I will direct that a memorial be erected within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster to the memory of the late right hon. the Earl Attlee, KG, and assuring me that your House wll make good the expenses attending the same.
    I will gladly give directions for carrynig your proposal into effect.

    DOUBLE TAXATION RELIEF
    The VICE -CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
    I have received your Addresses praying that on the ratification by the Government of the United States of America of the convention set out in the schedule to the order entitled the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (United States of America) Order 1976 and on the ratification by the Government of the United States of America of the protocol set out in the schedule to the order entitled the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (United States of America) (No. 2) Order 1976, drafts of which were laid before this House in the last session of Palament, orders be made in the form of those drafts.
    I will comply with your request.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SOCIAL SERVICES

    Occupational Pension Schemes
    Mr. Shepherdasked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he will issue his new report on member participation in occupational pension schemes.
    The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mr. David Ennals): I will report on the outcome of the consultations we are having on member participation in pension schemes when those consultations have been completed.
    Mr. Shepherd: Is the Secretary of State aware that if he continues with his dogmatic approach it will be possible for trade unionists to nominate 50 per cent. of representatives on company pension funds when it is possible that only 5 per cent. might be members of trade unions? Is he further aware that in a recent survey on a parallel matter 84 per cent. of trade unionists questioned thought that all employees of the company, and not just trade unionists, should participate in the election of representatives? Why does the right hon. Gentleman seek to deny democracy in this way?
    Mr. Ennals: I would make it clear to the hon. Gentleman that there is nothing dogmatic about the position that we have taken. In the White Paper we are not requiring that every scheme should change. In fact, many schemes will not change because trade unions and members of those schemes are satisfied with the existing structure. It is not a prescription for a requirement for change. It creates the opportunity for change, and it is a change that is much needed.
    Mrs. Chalker: Is the Secretary of State saying that he is not now envisaging compulsory legislation for member participation or, in his right hon. Friend's words, trade union participation in occupational pension schemes?
    Mr. Ennals: I am not saying that at all. I have not withdrawn from anything said in the White Paper. It is precisely the proposals in the White Paper that are being discussed with the CBI, the TUC

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    and other organisations. We are discussing how we can implement, and the methods of implementing, the proposals contained in the White Paper. We are being very flexible in our approach. I will report to the House as soon as our consultations have been completed.

    Non-contributory Invalidity Pensions
    Mr. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will make a statement about the proposed extension of the non-contributory invalidity pension to married women.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Alfred Morris): As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer indicated in his statement to the House on public expenditure on 22nd July last, the extension of non-contributory invalidity pension to disabled housewives is deferred until November 1977, and there is nothing I can add to my right hon. Friend's statement.
    I am most grateful to the all-party Disablement Group in the House for the help its members, together with representatives of the Disablement Income Group, have given me in preparing to extend this new benefit to disabled housewives.
    Mr. Knox: While accepting the financial and other difficulties involved, may I ask whether there is a chance of the Minister bringing the date forward sooner than he has announced?
    Mr. Morris: The Chancellor made clear the reasons for the deferment. I am afraid that there is nothing I can add to my right hon. Friend's statement.
    Mr. Carter-Jones: Is my hon. Friend aware that we were told that the extension was deferred for administrative reasons? Is my hon. Friend aware that if there had been no difficulties in that regard the money would now have been paid? A substantial number of people in the country, and on all sides of the House, are getting a little sick and tired of the fact that the worst off in our society are being penalised. Will my hon. Friend please convey to the Treasury the views of hon. Members on all sides of the House that this is wrong?
    Mr. Morris: There have been administrative problems as well as the problem
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    of resources. I appreciate how strongly my hon. Friend feels on the matter. I know he will appreciate that my right hon. Friend and I are also very concerned to make sure that this new benefit is in payment as soon as possible. There is nothing that I can add to the statement by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the timing of the introduction of the benefit.
    Mr. Boscawen: Is not more concern needed? It will shortly be three years since the House, by a overwhelming vote, expressed its desire to see this measure put into effect. It has been delayed for administrative reasons for much too long. Will the Minister do something about it?
    Mr. Morris: I must repeat that there are reasons of resources as well as reasons of administration why it has not been possible to introduce the benefit earlier. I have said that I am grateful to those members of the all-party Disablement Group who have helped me to make sure that the scheme, when introduced, is not a botched one, as it might have been without their help. I am afraid that I cannot go further than the terms of my original answer.
    Mr. Alexander Wilson: Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the non-contributory invalidity pension for disabled housewives can now be introduced without any inequity between cases of the same disability? Can my hon. Friend also say how many disabled housewives are likely to benefit from the new measure?
    Mr. Morris: With regard to the second part of my hon. Friend's question, we expect that there will be 40,000 new beneficiaries. We are extremely concerned to make certain that there are no inequities. As with the present incapacity benefits, the question whether a married woman is entitled to the NCIP will be decided by the independent statutory authorities, in the first instance by an insurance officer with an appeal lying to the local tribunal, and then to a national insurance commissioner.

    Supplementary Benefits Commission
    Mr. Montgomeryasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he has planned a further meeting with representatives of the Supplementary Benefits Commission.
    The Minister for Social Security (Mr. Stanley Orme): My right hon. Friend is meeting Commission members again on 23rd March.
    Mr. Montgomery: When the right hon. Gentleman meets members of the Supplementary Benefits Commission, will he confirm or deny the reports which are circulating that the Government intend to cut the real value of unemployment pay?
    Mr. Orme: The Government intend no such action. Therefore, it will not be necessary for it to be discussed.
    Mr. Andrew F. Bennett: When my right hon. Friend meets the Supplementary Benefits Commission, will he press upon its representatives that they should make it easier for pensioners and other long-term recipients of supplementary benefit to have their rates and rents paid direct to the authorities rather than their having to collect the money, take it home, possibly keep it at the risk of its being pinched, and then hand it to the appropriate authorities?
    Mr. Orme: This is a matter which the Supplementary Benefits Commission is looking at closely. At present, it cooperates with local authorities. I take note of my hon. Friend's point.
    Mrs. Knight: Will the right hon. Gentleman recognise on this matter that the councils themselves are extremely anxious that a change should be made? Although everyone will recognise that it is good to encourage people to manage their own monetary affairs, some tenants fail persistently in this regard.
    Mr. Orme: I certainly take note of the hon. Lady's point.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that old-age pension benefits, sickness benefits and unemployment benefits were always the same until the vandals at present on the Opposition Benches passed the 1973 Act, and that it was they who made the distinction between the unemployed and the rest of those receiving social security benefits?
    Mr. Orme: The Government give equal importance to the recipients of retirement pensions, unemployment benefit, sickness benefit, and benefits for the disabled.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Will the right hon. Gentleman take this opportunity to correct his right hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough), who perpetrated a manifest falsehood? The Conservative Party has never drawn any distinction between the benefits paid for unemployment and for sickness.
    Mr. Fernyhough>: Oh, yes; definitely it did.

    Child Health Services
    Mr. Gristasked the Secretary of State for Social Services when the Government hope to conclude discussions on the report of the Committee on Child Health Services.
    Mr. Ennals: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply my hon. Friend the Minister of State gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Eccles (Mr. Carter-Jones) on 14th January.
    Mr. Grist: Does the Secretary of State understand that the Opposition accept fully the need for these consultations and that we hope that early action will follow as a result of them? Meanwhile, however, will he encourage health authorities to go ahead with the implementation of various sections of the report which perhaps do not cost very much or, indeed, any money at all? I have in mind in particular the psychiatric sections of it.
    Mr. Ennals: I am looking at which parts of the report might well be proceeded with much earlier than the others, especially the recommendations which have either nil or very little resource implications. But it would be wrong to take any piece of it out of context and reach a decision before consultations. Giving until 30th June for consultations, bearing in mind that there are roughly 140 organisations involved, is giving about the right amount of time. I take the report very seriously. As soon as the consultations are completed, I shall want to bring to the House the Government's conclusions on how to implement the recommendations.
    Mr. Carter-Jones: Is it not strange that moral factors and cheaper economic factors can wait? Would it not be helpful for the Treasury if my right hon. Friend implemented Chapter 8 of the Court Report without further discussion? That

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    section of the report deals with perinatal care. My right hon. Friend could save 2,000 lives per annum. What is more, 10,000 children who are now born disabled need not be born disabled. Bearing in mind that it costs £4,000 per annum to look after such a child, in one year my right hon. Friend could save £40 million.
    Mr. Ennals: I share my hon. Friend's concern. However, I do not think he suggests that, if I immediately said "Yes" to his proposal, that number of lives, with one wave of a wand, would no longer be damaged. I agree that these are vital proposals and that they are not heavy in resource demand. It is right, however, for me to consult the professional organisations. It would be wrong to rush ahead and say that we intended to do this regardless of what the professional bodies thought.
    Dr. Vaughan: Does not the Secretary of State agree that this is such an important report with so many implications for the future care of children that it would be wrong to start implementing parts of it before we had a full debate in the House?
    Mr. Ennals: It would be wrong before there had been effective consultations, and it would be a great help if there could he a debate in the House. But I am not the Leader of the House, and I cannot enter into a commitment, although I would very much like to see a debate on this vital report.

    Preston Hospital
    Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what final date for completion of the new Preston Hospital can be envisaged, given reasonable progress by the contractors.
    The Minister of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Mr. Roland Moyle): It is expected that the main development of the new Preston Hospital will be completed by March 1980.
    Mr. Thorne: Does my hon. Friend recognise that there is considerable satisfaction in Preston that this project is to go ahead? Will he, however, give further consideration to whether, in view of the general unemployment problems that we face in Lancashire, there might not be a way to persuade the contractor to reach
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    an earlier completion date than the one which he has given?
    Mr. Moyle: I shall take my hon. Friend's views into account, of course. Phase 2 of the contract is due to start before phase 1 is finished. There will be an overlap there, and this will assist with the problems to which my hon. Friend drew attention.

    Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital
    Sir Bernard Braineasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether the staff at the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital will be offered alternative employment when the in-patient facilities are closed.
    Mr. Moyle: The Camden and Islington Area Health Authority (Teaching) has said that there will be no compulsory redundancies and that staff at the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital will be offered alternative employment when the in-patient facilities are closed at Euston Road.
    Sir B. Braine: Is it not the case that the transfer of in-patient services has been postponed again? Why is this? Is the Minister aware that the staff of this famous hospital enjoy the high regard and even affection of the very large number of women who have been treated there? Can he give an assurance that when these facilities are closed down these able and dedicated staff will not only be given employment but will be given comparable employment?
    Mr. MoyleCertainly it is the intention to offer comparable employment to employees of the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital wherever possible. The removal of facilities from Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital to Whittington Hospital has been postponed for a further eight weeks to ensure that the wards to receive the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson patients are of the highest standards when they get there.
    Mr. Baker: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the hospital has given a unique service for nearly 100 years to women living in central London? Will he consider again the many proposals before him to close other hospitals in central London, as the closure of many specialist

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    units would be yet another factor leading to the decline of our inner city areas?
    Mr. Moyle: I have very much in mind the matters of health care in the inner city areas. Whenever a community health council disagrees with a health authority's proposal for closure, that proposal ends up on either my desk or that of my right hon. Friend. The hon. Gentleman can be confident that we shall take all these factors into account.
    Mrs. Wise: Is my hon. Friend aware that some of my hon. Friends and I are glad that the transfer of patients was postponed and that we hope that the whole principle is still under consideration? Does he agree that it is dangerous to dispense with this specialist hospital for women in view of the grossly male-dominated State medical services in general?
    Mr. Moyle: There is no intention to dispense with the concept of the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital. Both my right hon. Friend and his predecessor are determined that the hospital will be transferred to the Whittington Hospital under the name of the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital and that there will be facilities there for women to be treated by women. In that way the hospital will be preserved. It is our firm intention to proceed with that plan.

    Mobility Allowance
    Mr. DavidPrice asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he will next review the level of the mobility allowance.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer indicated in his statement to the House on public expenditure on 22nd July last, we propose to increase the rate of the mobility allowance in November of this year. I cannot add to that announcement at present, except to say that the review of the level of the allowance will be carried out in adequate time to bring in the increase from November.
    Mr. Price: May I ask the Minister two quick questions in response to his reply? First, will he guarantee to the House that when the allowance is increased it will be sufficient to take care of the substantial inflation in travel costs? Secondly, will it be sufficient to assist disabled
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    people to acquire a car, bearing in mind that the present allowance is too low to make that possible?
    Mr. Morris: We are enjoined by legislation to have regard to the national economic situation as a whole, to the general standard of living and to such other matters as the Secretary of State thinks relevant. I cannot anticipate the review, but we have said repeatedly that we hope to be able to maintain the real value of the allowance and, if possible, to increase it. As for the hon. Gentleman's second question, I cannot go further than the terms of my right hon. Friend's letter to disabled drivers, except to say that I am closely in touch with the Central Council for the Disabled in respect of consideration of arrangements to help disabled drivers who want to purchase cars of their own.
    Mr. Wigley: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there is grave concern about the upper limits for the mobility allowance scheme and the delay in allowing it to people up to 60 and 65 years of age? Is he aware that there is particular concern about there being no intention to allow it to people over 65? Does he appreciate that in rural areas especially the mobility allowance is essential, and that it is even more essential in the age ranges to which I have referred? Will he give an assurance that the Government will move rapidly to extend the scheme in that direction?
    Mr. Morris: It is a new allowance and I am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman say that it is an essential new benefit. I am under many pressures. There are those who want to extend the age range, there are those who want to include the blind and there are those who want to increase immediately the amount of allowance. We are in the process of trebling public expenditure on mobility for the disabled. I shall try my very best to help as many disabled people as I can to improve their mobility.
    Mr. Tierney: Is my hon. Friend aware that the extension of outdoor mobility help for young people has been warmly received throughout the country? How many applications have been received for children between the ages of 5 and 10?
    Mr. Morris: At this moment about 9,000 applications are being processed.

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    For the most part, they are on behalf of children in the 5 to 10 years age group. As the House will know, the benefit will be paid to children in that age group from 13th April 1977. I am most grateful to right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House for the help they have given in publicising the extension of the mobility allowance to severely disabled children.
    Mr. Giles Shaw: As regards the capital purchase of vehicles for the disabled, what precisely are the recommendations given to hire-purchase companies? There appears to be grave doubt as to whether they have offered real relaxation of their terms.
    Mr. Morris: There should not be any doubt about the lifting of hire-purchase controls in the case of disabled persons wishing to buy cars by that means. If the hon. Gentleman has a particular difficulty in mind concerning one of his constituents, I shall be glad to examine it. When I referred to hire-purchase arrangements, I was doing so in the context of the excellent work now being undertaken by the Central Council for the Disabled.
    Mrs. Bain: I appreciate the difficulties that the Minister faces in trying to extend the mobility allowance even further, but will he look seriously at the problem of youngsters under the age of five, particularly where there is a short life expectancy and where the offer of the mobility allowance would be of great assistance to young mothers who find themselves in awkward situations?
    Mr. Morris: I am mindful of that problem. I shall do whatever I can to extend mobility help. The hon. Lady, who takes a personal interest in these matters, will appreciate the clamant pressures that one has from people who have had no help before but who think that they should be helped under this new scheme.
    Mr. Park: Without wishing to detract from the mobility allowance scheme, may I ask what progress has been made in finding a suitable alternative invalid vehicle?
    Mr. Morris: My right hon. Friend has said that we accept that when it is no longer possible to replace the invalid
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    tricycle for the disabled driver who still wants a specialised vehicle—we accept that there will be a continuing demand for specialised vehicles—we shall examine the home and world markets to help such people. I cannot go very much further than that today. My hon. Friend may be well assured that we are determined not to immobilise anyone who is mobile now. However, we must have in mind that there are people whose advancing disabilities make it impossible for them to continue to drive. The mobility allowance will be available to them in future.

    Analgesics (Sale)
    Mr. Townsendasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will make a statement on the sale of analgesics.
    Mr. Moyle: No, Sir.
    Mr. Townsend: Is it not about time that the Minister made up his mind about the recommendations of the Medicines Commission? Is he aware that Help the Aged is most anxious that these basic drugs should not be restricted to chemists? It feels that that would cause considerable inconvenience to the elderly, especially in rural areas.
    Mr. Moyle: This is the first exchange of parliamentary views that we have had in the Chamber since I announced my recipt of the Commission's advice last October. I have received representations from Help the Aged along the lines that the hon. Gentleman mentions.
    Mr. Christopher Price: In making up his mind on this issue, will my hon. Friend be aware that many of my hon. Friends, including myself, are suspicious of the drug companies' campaign to extend the sale of drugs? Many of us feel that too many drugs of this sort rather than too few are being consumed. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important to educate the population at large that drugs are not confectionery to be bought off the shelves but medicines that should be taken with advice and care?
    Mr. Moyle: It is important to educate the public about the true place of medicines in our national life. My hon. Friend's worry about the drug companies

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    was a factor that was brought to my attention by hon. Members on both sides of the House.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Since it is now four or five months since the hon. Gentleman received the alternative reply in terms of the recommendations by the Medicines Commission, is it not time that the uncertainty was ended? Does he not appreciate that a large number of traders, both large and small, want to know where they stand? If there are to be changes in the law, those traders will have to incur expenses in applying those changes. Will the Minister soon make an announcement?
    Mr. Moyle: There is no immediate need to lay regulations before the House. I have received no representations from anybody about any state of uncertainty, although I have received representations from people outside the House and from hon. Members in the form of Written Questions, both for and against the proposition.

    Vaccine-damaged Children
    Mr. Ashleyasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what steps he is taking to pay compensation to the victims of vaccine damage, to improve procedures to minimise the number of future casualties and to establish an inquiry into the administration of whooping cough vaccine.
    Mr. Ennals: I would ask my hon. Friend to await the statement I shall be making at the end of Questions this afternoon.

    Means-tested Benefits
    Mr. Clemitsonasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is his estimate of the total amount of means-tested benefits for which people were eligible but which were unclaimed in the last year for which such an estimate is available.
    Mr. Orme: Estimates in this field are necessarily uncertain. For family income supplement and free welfare milk, it is estimated that unclaimed benefits amount to about £1 million and £12 million respectively. For supplementary benefit the amount is clearly much larger, but no reliable figures are available and the subject is being studied further in con
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    nection with the review of the Supplementary Benefits Scheme that my right hon. Friend announced last September when the annual report of the Supplementary Benefits Commission for 1975 was published. The report suggested that the 1974 take-up rate, in terms of numbers of persons eligible for benefit, had been of the order of 75 per cent., but this does not provide an adequate indication of the amount of unclaimed benefit.
    Mr. Clemitson: I thank my right hon. Friend for that very full answer. Does he not agree that it would be better if certain persons in the media, and, indeed, some Opposition Members, spent more time ensuring that people in need were getting the benefits to which they were entitled instead of spending their time making often wildly inaccurate statements about alleged abuses of social security?
    Mr. Orme: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. The take-up of benefits is an indication that many people are not rushing to take every benefit offered by the State. Indeed, we are concerned that many people who are entitled—this relates particularly to elderly people—are being deterred from taking the benefits to which they are entitled because of the campaign throughout the country. I urge those who have a genuine claim for benefit to come forward and claim it.
    Mr. Evelyn King: On the other side of the matter, has not the right hon. Gentleman noted the statistics issued by his Department in regard to the county of Dorset—namely, that the amount of detected frauds in social security matters has multiplied threefold in 12 months? Is that statistic equally reflected in other parts of the country, how much cash is involved, and would not that cash be better spent in assisting deserving people?
    Mr. Orme: The figures given by the hon. Gentleman show that the Government do not intend to allow people to defraud the system. A greater number of prosecutions has taken place, and we shall continue to prosecute people who indulge in fraud. In taking that course, we must not deter the many millions of people who are genuinely entitled to benefit. My Department pays out about £10,000 million a year in benefit, and

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    last year the amount of which the Department was defrauded amounted to £1·6 million.
    Mr. Kilroy-Silk: The figures given by my right hon. Friend show that large numbers of vulnerable people still do not receive their full entitlement. What steps is he taking to ensure that those people are living at the standard to which they are entitled? Will he redouble his efforts to ensure that they receive full entitlement?
    Mr. Orme: The Government are using the publicity machine, are issuing leaflets and are advertising to ensure that people take up the benefits to which they are entitled. Furthermore, the Supplementary Benefits Commission is examining the matter in great depth.
    Mr. Michael Latham: Will the right hon. Gentleman pay particular attention to the extreme complexity of many benefits and the great difficulty faced by those who wish to understand to what benefits they are entitled?
    Mr. Orme: Yes, I shall do what the hon. Gentleman requests of me, but he will note that we are constantly enjoined to implement and extend mobility allowance and invalidity benefit. If we are to extend those benefits to those who need them, obviously it is a complex exercise.

    Benefits and Wages
    Mr. Sproatasked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many persons, at the latest available date, are receiving more per week in tax-free social security benefits, including benefits in cash and in kind, than they would receive if they were working for the average taxed wage.
    Mr. Orme: It is not possible to give a figure, but the number is certainly very small.
    Mr. Sproat: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is something desperately wrong with a system in which there has been an admission by the Chairman of the Supplementary Benefits Commission that 20 per cent. of workers are better off by not working than by working? Is he not aware that the figure does not include possibly another 20 per cent. who are only marginally better off
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    by working? Will he first introduce legislation, to tax benefits, if the Government seek to tax every other source of income, and, secondly, will he make certain that it is impossible to earn more by not working than by working?
    Mr. Orme: It does not advance the hon. Gentleman's case if he misquotes the chairman of the Commission. The figure to which the hon. Gentleman refers involves possibly one in 10 workers. Taking other factors into account, we believe that the figure is much higher when we consider those who are supposed to be defrauding the system. If I may give the hon. Gentleman some information on this matter, a person with average weekly earnings of £67 gross in November 1976, with a wife and four children and paying average rent and rates, would have a net weekly income of £49·54. If he were receiving all benefits, including earning-related sums, he would obtain £46·58. The important thing, however, is that after earnings-related benefit has ceased—and we must remember that the benefit was introduced to shield people during immediate unemployment—the figure would be about £40 per week. Since we are talking about large families with a great number of children, the hon. Gentleman appears to be attacking the children in those families.
    Mr. Russell Kerr: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many Labour Members are becoming increasingly irritated by attempts made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Sproat) to seek to protect his waning political fortunes by that type of puerile supplementary question? Will my right hon. Friend undertake to the House that if there are any further attempts to ask him such questions they will be given a Bronx cheer?
    Mr. Orme: The many complaints and letters which I have received from the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Sproat) have been and are being analysed by my Department. I hope to make an interesting statement to the House in the not-too-distant future.
    Mrs. Knight: Does not the right hon. Gentleman accept that it is absurd that people are able to obtain more money from social security benefits when they are not working than they obtain when

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    they are working? Does he agree that the fault lies in the low tax threshold?
    Mrs. Renée Short: Low wages.
    Mrs. Knight: Will he seek an opportunity to discuss this matter with his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
    Mr. Orme: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor is aware of the tax threshold and has already informed the House that he is considering that matter. Does not the hon. Lady accept that we are dealing with a very small number of people in the category of large families of whom I spoke earlier?

    Public Relations Consultants
    Mr. Maddenasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what advice has been offered by circular by his Department to area health authorities, teaching hospitals and retained boards of governors about the employment of public relations consultants.
    Mr. Ennals: Advice on public relations services in the reorganised National Health Service was given to health authorities and hoards of governors in May 1974 in Health Service Circular HSC(IS)35. My hon. Friend has written to my hon. Friend following his earlier Questions on this subject and enclosing a copy of this circular.
    Mr. Madden: Does the Secretary of State agree that, at a time when there is great pressure on public expenditure in the Health Service, it is unacceptable for regional health authorities, such as the South-West Thames authority, to employ the part-time services of a public relations consultant at £6,000 a year plus expenses? Will he reconsider the advice given about public relations and prohibit the employment of part-time consultants by organisations within the Health Service?
    Mr. Ennals: I do not think that I shall actually prohibit it. Very few health authorities make use of outside consultants. The majority use their own staff. I shall look at the question again, but the health authorities know that I expect them, within the limits of the resources available, to do public relations tasks with the funds and staff at their disposal.
    Dr. Vaughan: Does the Secretary of State agree with the view of the Royal College of Surgeons that low morale is one of the problems in the NHS? Would he agree that public relations officers are not the answer to this problem? The best way to overcome it is to have better relations between himself and the health staff.
    Mr. Ennals: I shall certainly not comment on all the published evidence to the Royal Commission, and I am getting tired of evidence which starts off with the assumption that the NHS is on the brink of disaster. It is in no such situation. The NHS is facing major problems but it is trying to face them realistically. No service is done to the National Health Service or to patients by exaggerating the situation.
    Mr. Pavitt: Does the Secretary of State recall that the previous Administration paid £250,000 to a firm of consultants, namely, McKinsey and Co., to reorganise the Health Service? That reorganisation has proved an unmitigated disaster, and the firm in question now says that it gave the wrong advice. Would my right hon. Friend seek to get back the £250,000 of the taxpayers' money?
    Mr. Ennals: I thought that it was quite remarkable that the firm which assisted the former Conservative Secretary of State in his efforts now recognises that the reorganisation was a disaster. I think that all of us are suffering as a result. Every time I hear Conservatives criticising the extent of administration within the Health Service I think that everyone should recognise that they imposed the system on us. I will not accept criticism from them, and I have to fight very hard to squeeze to the minimum the management costs for the efficient administration of the NHS. It is significant that no one has yet defended the position of the previous Conservative Secretary of State.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Is the Secretary of State aware that his immediate predecessor said in a document entitled "Health and Prevention" that the reorganisation had enabled the Department of Health for the first time to organise priorities and the effective allocation of resources within the NHS? Will he at least acknowledge that?
    Mr. Ennals: I very rarely hear right hon. and hon. Members opposite talking about planning with such warm enthusiasm. I have not sought to condemn every aspect of the reorganisation. It is perfectly true that planning can be done more effectively as a result of the reorganisation. We knew that the NHS needed to be reorganised, and the time may come when further changes must be made. But it would be very unwise for any Secretary of State now to throw the Health Service into a new traumatic reorganisation, and it certainly would not be in the interests of the patients.
    Mrs. Castle: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin) typically has taken a sentence out of context?
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: No.
    Mrs. Castle: Yes, it was taken out of context in order to distort the whole of the theme which I deployed on these matters when I was Secretary of State—namely, that the reorganisation of the NHS carried out by our predecessors in office was a management disaster.
    Mr. Ennals: I am so used to the right hon. Gentleman taking statements out of context that I did not even deign to comment.

    EDUCATION
    Mr Nicholas Wintertonasked the Prime Minister if he will make a further statement on the part which he has played in the great debate on education.
    Mr. Formanasked the Prime Minister if he will make a further statement outlining his part in the great debate on education.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan): As a follow-up to my speech at Ruskin College last October, my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Education and Science and Wales have agreed to organise wide-ranging consultations on the issues which I had raised. There is to be a series of eight regional conferences during February and March to which representatives of parents and teachers, trade unions and employers, local authorities and other organisations are being invited; a back
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    ground paper for consideration by the conferences has been prepared and is to be published tomorrow, and a copy will be placed in the Library. A Minister will preside at each conference. Following these discussions, the Government will publish a Green Paper in the summer. I shall continue to take the closest interest in these developments and am much encouraged by the interest that has been aroused.
    Mr. Winterton: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Secretary of State for Education and Science openly admitted in an education debate from the Royal Institute that was televised on BBC2 last week that comprehensive schools were unable to meet the needs of gifted children? Is he aware that these gifted young people are vital to the future success of this country? Would he ensure that no institutions of academic excellence are destroyed before the end of the great debate? Also, would he ensure that adequate provision is made for gifted children?
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend said nothing at all to lead the hon. Member to that conclusion. The discussions taking place in these regional conferences will cover a number of matters of common concern. The four major issues that will be discussed are the curriculum, standards and their assessment, training of teachers, and the relationship between education and working life. If the subjects are approached on the basis on which I tried to start this debate, that can do nothing but good.
    Mr. Forman: We are all very grateful that one of the subjects to which attention is being drawn is the relationship between education and industry. Does the Prime Minister accept that the much-vaunted industrial strategy to which his Government claim to be committed is not worth the paper on which it is printed unless the education system turns out highly qualified entrants to the labour market?
    The Prime Minister: This is one of the questions to which I called attention in my original remarks. As a follow-up I was very glad that we were able to make arrangements between the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Education and Science for employers to make

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    grants of up to £500 a year for scholarships for further education and training without that amount being taken into account against mandatory grants. This is where we want to establish a relationship, and I agree entirely with what the hon. Member has said.
    Mr. Ward: Will the Prime Minister confirm that in addition to these subjects it is open to the conferences to discuss a broader range of educational topics which are of interest and importance to the regions in which the meetings are being held?
    The Prime Minister: There is no restriction on the nature of discussion, but the issues laid down have formed the subject of the memorandum. I hope that hon. Members will read that in the Library, because it focuses on the real issues on which we have to reach common agreement and about which parents and industry are very concerned.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: Surely the Prime Minister would agree that, as the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) are in happy harmony for once, we are quite right to be concerned about gifted children. This is much more important than any obsession with doing away with grammar schools. Surely there is room in a mainly comprehensive system for a certain number of selected schools for highly gifted children.
    The Prime Minister: As a Socialist I am all in favour of everyone having the fullest opportunity to develop his or her talents to the maximum. That seems to be a necessary condition for a healthy society and I am certain that our education system will be formulated accordingly.

    PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY
    Mr. Gryllsasked the Prime Minister if the public speech on parliamentary democracy and individual liberty given by the Secretary of State for Education and Science on 21st January at Swadlincote represents Government policy.
    Mr. Wyn Robertsasked the Prime Minister if the public speech of the Secre
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    tary of State for Education and Science on parliamentary democracy at Swadlincote on 21st January represents Government policy.
    The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend began her speech by saying that she did not intend to discuss the affairs of Government, but in so far as she did touch on them the answer is "Yes".
    Mr. Grylls: Since the right hon. Lady was talking about Marxists during a large part of her speech, and following the final rejection last night of the right hon. Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Prentice) as local party candidate, will the Prime Minister say where he stands? Will he come clean about this and say whether at the next General Election he will be supporting the candidate of the Newham Marxists or whether he will be supporting the right hon. Member as an independent democratic Labour Party candidate?
    The Prime Minister: There is no ministerial responsibility on this matter, but the hon. Gentleman may take it that I shall be supporting all the candidates who support the Parliamentary Labour Party and that I shall be vigorously opposing any Conservative.
    Mr. Roberts: Will the right hon. Gentleman come clean on this? Does he share the right hon. Lady's unease about Trotskyism and Trotskyites, and does he agree that Marxists have shown little concern for democracy?
    The Prime Minister: It is true that Marxists have not shown too much concern for democracy. As my right hon. Friend pointed out in her speech, they share that with the Conservative Party, which, as she said, has shown very little practical demonstration in championing the causes of unpopular minorities or campaigns against discrimination on grounds of sex or race and many other matters that she interpreted as being aspects of freedom. I have not seen that the Conservative Party has been very active in these matters.
    Mrs. Millie Miller: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one contribution made by the Leader of the Opposition in furthering debate on the matters to which he has just referred was to make a radio broadcast from Wales in which she

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    attacked the Asian immigrants, very few of whom live in Wales?
    Mrs. Thatcher
    The Prime Minister: I represent a Welsh constituency which contains certain coloured communities, and a number of those people are Asians. I am happy to inform my hon. Friend that they consistently vote Labour and that they would not listen to that kind of rubbish.
    Mrs. Thatcher: What the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mrs. Miller) said is quite wrong. However, may I return to Questions to the Prime Minister, as I understand that that is the object of this quarter of an hour on Tuesday afternoons? Is he aware that he has steadily refused to answer questions about the influence of Marxism in the party which keeps him in power? Does he, like his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education, condemn that influence, or is he too reliant on it to put his policies into practice to condemn it?
    Mrs. Millie Miller: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker—
    Mr. Speaker: Will the hon. Lady be kind enough to wait five minutes and raise her point of order at the end of Questions?
    Mrs. Millie Miller: May I appeal to you, Mr. Speaker, to allow me to raise this point of order now, since I have a statement which appeared in Dawn Overseas, which is the journal of the Pakistani immigrants, which makes it quite clear that the statement I made is correct?
    Mr. Speaker: When there is disagreement between hon. Members it is not exactly a point of order, and I must remind the House that time is going on.
    The Prime Minister: I agree with the right hon. Lady, but I thought that this subject was appropriate for Questions to the Prime Minister in his official capacity. Those Questions are not designed to give the right hon. Lady an opportunity of pursuing points which are rather unworthy of her, as she knows. I am almost tempted to go into the internal history of Conservative Central Office, and that would do nobody any good. [Interruption.]
    Mr Speaker: Order.
    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Lady knows very well where I stand on the issue of Marxism and the other issues. I do not propose to spend time on questions dealing with issues which have nothing to do with my Prime Ministerial rôle.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Is not the Prime Minister tempted to answer the question for a change? Does he welcome or does he condemn the support of Marxists to keep him in power?
    The Prime Minister: I would no more welcome or condemn it than the right hon. Lady would welcome or condemn the support of Fascists for the Conservative Party. What is more, I would not even insult the right hon. Lady by asking her a question such as that. I hope that we may conduct discussions in this Chamber on the basis that all parties are concerned with the issues of freedom, liberty and democracy. That is where I expect the right hon. Lady to stand, and she knows very well that that is where I stand. [Interruption.]
    Mrs. Thatcher: Is the right hon. Gentleman—[Interruption]—not aware that I have no hesitation whatever—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Barracking is not part of the tradition of this House.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Is the Prime Minister aware that I wholly condemn Fascism anywhere, and that I ask him similarly wholly to condemn Marxism?
    Hon. Members: Answer!
    The Prime Minister: I do not discourage the discussion of philosophical ideas—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—that may help to shape our society. Maybe the right hon. Lady is afraid of them. I am not. I am ready to meet them and face them, but the right hon. Lady should not confuse discussion with support.

    CAERNARVON
    Mr. Wigleyasked the Prime Minister if he will visit Caernarvon.
    The Prime Minister: I have no present plans to do so, sir.
    Mr. Wigley: Will the Prime Minister assure the people of Caernarvon and elsewhere that, should the Government fail to get a timetable motion on the Scotland and Wales Bill because of the collaboration of Labour Members with Conservatives who are determined to wreck the Bill, he will extend the present Session through to 1978 or for however long it takes to get the Bill through?
    The Prime Minister: I think that I would be in accordance with precedent if I answered that question as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Houses would answer it, by saying "Not next week, Sir."
    Mr. Lee: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that some of us who support the devolution Bill will not be prepared to support a guillotine if it allows the European direct elections Bill to come in? Would not the best occasion for Royal Assent to be given to the Scotland and Wales Bill be the fourth Friday in July 1979?
    The Prime Minister: There is no direct connection between these two Bills. I hope that my hon. Friend does not intend to play the fool on either of them.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Is the reason why the Prime Minister will not visit Caernarvon the fact that he was visiting it last night, instead of voting in the House to prevent the defeat of his own Government—although he was unpaired last night—on the Reduction of Redundancy Rebates Bill? If not, will he tell the House why he secured the defeat of his own Government by not voting last night?
    The Prime Minister: I understood last night that I was paired. I hope that the lesson has been learnt by all of us, in view of the difficulties over the pairing of sick Members yesterday, that if the Opposition are setting a trap we ought to be a little more careful in the future than in the past.

VACCINE-DAMAGED CHILDREN
The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mr. David Ennals): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will now answer Question No. 9.
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There has been much public concern expressed, in the House and in the media, about the risk of brain damage caused by whooping cough vaccination. In making this statement on behalf of all the Health Ministers, I want to express our sincere sympathy to the families of the small number of children who may over the years have been damaged by vaccination. No amount of money can put right this damage.
What we can do is to ensure that the best medical help is given to the children, and that their parents are helped to bear the additional burdens. We are doing all we can under the present law to make things easier for them financially. A wide range of services and benefits is available under the National Health Service, personal social services, the social security system and the Family Fund which was extended in 1974 to help families in which there is a severely handicapped child.
I recognise the pressure on me to provide compensation for vaccine-damaged children over and above the help that we provide at present, and I understand the strong feelings that have been aroused on this issue. In fact, the Standing Medical Advisory Committee in its evidence to the Royal Commission on Civil Liability and Compensation for Personal Injury recognised that there was a reasonable case for paying compensation where vaccination was proved as the cause of damage. But this is by no means the only case where medical action can cause unforeseen damage or where Governments have urged people to use some particular part of the Health Service. That is why I cannot consider the claims for vaccine-damaged children in isolation. The Royal Commission is considering this whole field, and it would be wrong for me to pre-empt its report, which I understand is expected later this year.
I share the widespread concern for the children who may have been damaged. I hope the House will also share my concern at the alarming drop of 25 to 30 per cent. in the number of vaccinations for diphtheria, tetanus and poliomyelitis over the last three years, and the even steeper fall of nearly 60 per cent. in whooping cough vaccinations. The figures I am circulating in the Official Report will show that immunisation and vaccination have dramatically

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improved child health in the past 40 years, but much of the gain could be lost if parents stop worrying about the dangers of diseases which have almost been wiped out by the very success of the vaccination programme, or if they fail to give protection to their children because of fears about serious side-effects.
Although there is a small risk of brain damage from whooping cough vaccination, I am advised by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, chaired by Professor Sir Charles Stuart-Harris, in whom I have complete confidence, that the policy of offering whooping cough vaccine for babies should not be changed because the gains greatly outweigh the risks. Whooping cough itself is a dangerous disease. It can lead not only to brain damage but to permanent lung damage and even death. There were, in fact, 4,000 cases and four deaths last year. The Joint Committee also advises doctors that where, in individual cases, there are indications against whooping cough vaccine it should not be administered. In these cases, I urge parents not to turn their backs on vaccination against other diseases without first seeking the advice of their family doctors. Older parents will remember the days when polio and diphtheria swept across Britain. Those days must never return.
The vaccination programme will continue. But I am determined to ensure that the risks of damage are reduced to the absolute minimum. The Joint Committee has clearly stated the circumstances in which whooping cough vaccination is inadvisable, and information has been given to doctors on a number of occasions, as detailed in material I am circulating in the Official Report. But, so that there can be no doubt in anyone's mind on this, I am arranging for the most up-to-date information on contra-indications to be sent again to all doctors and the nurses who work with them. I am also considering what more can be done to improve liaison between family doctors and clinics so that all those administering vaccine are fully aware of contra-indications in individual cases.
I firmly believe that the public should be aware both of the general benefits and the hazards of vaccination,
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and I wish to help doctors and nurses in their task of providing information and discussing the issues with parents. To assist them the Health Education Council has been providing a leaflet. This was revised in 1975, but together with the Joint Committee I am arranging for the urgent preparation of a new and more detailed version.
The Joint Committe has access to all the available medical and scientific knowledge, including information from the Adverse Reactions Sub-Committee of the Committee on Safety of Medicines. I am reminding doctors to pay particular attention to the need to report to the Sub-Committee any damage attributed to vaccine. To ensure that nothing is overlooked I am asking the Committee on Safety of Medicines to arrange for the examination of any information assembled by the Association of Parents of Vaccine-Damaged Children which the Association considers has not already been assessed.
I realise that this has been an anxious time for parents of young children who now have to make a decision about whether to have their child vaccinated. I hope that my statement this afternoon will help them to reach a decision on this difficult matter. I hope that such parents will be better able to understand the circumstances in which vaccination against whooping cough is inadvisable. But I hope, too, that they will appreciate that in the vast majority of cases the benefits of vaccination far outweigh the risks. I am sure that the House will agree that vaccination programmes play a vital part in protecting our children's health.
Mr. Ashley: Is the Minister aware that I welcome the improved procedures but believe that in view of the clear conflict of medical opinion over whooping cough vaccine, public anxiety will not be allayed by ministerial statements? Should not an independent inquiry be held into the efficacy and safety of whooping cough vaccine, as distinct from the inquiry that is being conducted by the Ombudsman into the matter of maladministration? Is he aware that his statement does nothing for the children who are already blinded, deafened or paralysed by these vaccines? Is it not absolutely intolerable that the Minister should wait for the

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Royal Commission? Should he not decide now to give compensation to children so gravely damaged by his immunisation scheme?
Mr. Ennals: My hon. Friend has made two important points. The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation is an independent body that includes specialists in virology, immunisation, epiemdiology, infectious diseases, neurology, paediatrics, and general practice. The Committee includes 22 recognised experts, and they are unanimous in the conclusion that they have reached on the basis of all the information at their disposal.
It is a continuing inquiry and I do not think that any separate independent inquiry would establish any evidence that is not already available to the Joint Committee.
On compensation, I have great sympathy with the case which my hon. Friend has made and for which he is campaigning, but I fear that I cannot enter into a firm commitment before we have received the report of the Royal Commission, which is dealing with this and a wide range of other issues. The Government will consider the question of retrospection when the Commission makes its recommendations.
Dr. Vaughan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we wish to join him in expressing great sympathy for those involved in these tragic cases? Would he assure us that his statement will not be the last word on the possibility of compensation? Does he accept that this is a special group of children? They are special because they were normal and healthy before the injections were given. They are also special—and it is this which really differentiates them from other disabled children—because the State recommends the injections partly in order to protect society? Surely the State should then share the responsibility when things go wrong. Does the right hon. Gentleman know that there are already six other European countries which have recognised this responsibility and which give compensation? Can he at least undertake that if the Pearson Commission recommends that compensation should be paid, he will make it retrospective?
Mr. Ennals: I have already dealt with the hon. Gentleman's last question. Of course this is not my last word on compensation; I have said that I have a great deal of sympathy for the case put forward on behalf of these children and have also said that the fact that the Commission is not authorised to make proposals which have a retrospective effect does not mean that the Government are not free to do that in respect of any recommendation about children who have been affected by subsequent events.
Vaccination is not compulsory in this country. In the European countries to which the hon. Gentleman referred in which compensation is paid, vaccination is compulsory. Immunisation and vaccination programmes are promoted and encouraged in this country, but it is left to the judgment of the doctors and parents whether vaccination should be carried out. All the disadvantages and dangers are brought to the attention of doctors.
Mr. Pavitt: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I fully support what my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) has said about compensation? Can he assure me that, in future, adequate notice will be given to parents on the lines which he has laid down and that this will be easily understandable and not complex? Is my right hon. Friend also aware that I support him in saying that immunisation and vaccination have done more for the health of this country in the last half century than any other aspect of the health services? Will he ensure that the vaccination programme against rubella continues? It has been established only in the last three years, but if it is fully used by parents it will save tens of thousands of children from deafness.
Mr. Ennals: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I can give him the assurance which he sought in the last part of his question. Deaths from whooping cough are a fraction of what they were before mass vaccination was advised. The incidence is down from 90,000 cases and 85 deaths in 1956 to four deaths and fewer than 4,000 cases in 1976. We should also consider the incidence of brain damage, because some figures have been published which must be very

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alarming to parents. The Joint Committee believes that the incidence of brain damage following whooping cough vaccination is about one in 300,000 children, which corresponds to about two cases of brain damage caused by vaccination each year and compares with the Committee's estimate of an average of four such cases each year from whooping cough itself, which can also lead to permanent lung damage and other serious complications.
Mr. Stephen Ross: Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that compensation is also paid in some countries where vaccination is not compulsory? Does his statement not ring rather of the thalidomide case in which compensation was ultimately paid, largely because of the activities of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley), whose current campaign I heartily support? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the heartbreak which these vaccination tragedies have caused? I am thinking particularly of a constituent of mine, the details of whose case have been given to the Secretary of State. Does he realise that it is time that he gave a definite commitment on compensation and that if it cannot be paid in full now, there should at least be an initial payment made immediately?
Mr. Ennals: I can go no further on the question of compensation. As I have said, the Family Fund was extended in 1974 in order to provide financial assistance, particularly for handicapped children. This has been available and a number of the cases about which we are talking have received assistance. That fund is not in place of compensation, but that will have to await the report of the Commission. One of the difficulties in making comparisons with other countries is that the patterns vary enormously. As far as I know, compensation is paid in those few countries where vaccination is compulsory—which it is not here.
Mr. Loyden: My right hon. Friend said that his statement was intended to convince parents that they should continue to have confidence in vaccination, but is he aware that the delay and procrastination over compensation will result in a loss of confidence in vaccination?
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Is he aware that there are special circumstances in these cases which go far beyond the question of compensation? Is he aware, for instance, that these children are not being educated and that a 14-year-old child in my constituency has received only three years' education? Does this not show the need for urgent measures to be taken to see that these difficulties are overcome and is not the payment of compensation the only way in which they can be overcome?
Mr. Ennals: As I said in my statement, I recognise the depth of feeling which exists about the case for compensation, particularly among people, such as myself, who know of children who have been affected. However, the Royal Commission will be reporting soon, and we must not get this matter out of proportion. We are not dealing just with the sad problem of these children, some of whose brain damage or other conditions may have been caused by the vaccinations and some whose conditions may not have been so caused—and that is a matter for medical judgment. We also face the problem whether the public will continue with vaccination, which I am certain it is in their interests to do. My statement does not show that there are no risks, but I hope that it will enable parents and doctors to understand better the risks that do exist and that they will not have children vaccinated if those risks are apparent. Otherwise, I hope that they will see that it is enormously to the advantage of the children and the community that the vaccination programme should continue.
Sir J. Langford-Holt: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the only assurance which the parents of the one child in 300,000 who suffers brain damage will get from his statement is that they can expect little help from him? We are talking about children, and the educational years are the most important for them. The right hon. Gentleman has said that the Royal Commission will report soon. Can he tell us when that will be?
Mr. Ennals: The Royal Commission will report during the course of this year. The sooner it reports the better. I do not accept the strictures of hon. Members opposite. We are dealing with a situation that has existed for a generation. We have been talking about vaccination for

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25 years. There is no suggestion that there is a greater incidence of brain damage to children today than there was 10 or 15 years ago. There is no new body of knowledge. It is unreasonable for hon. Members opposite to suggest that somehow or other this Government should have taken action already when they did not take action.
Mr. Carter-Jones: Is the Secretary of State aware that I have been conducting a campaign for poliomyelitis immunisation for a long time? Is he aware that there are still serious risks of polio either being caught here or being brought in from abroad? The decline in the number of people being immunised against polio is frightening. Is he aware that I went to be immunised six weeks ago but was laughed at and told "Not at your age"? The risk is great. Every day that my right hon. Friend delays making a decision the percentage of immunisations will drop. Does he not agree that the case for compensation has been made out? I was upset when my right hon. Friend said that protection was available from the Family Fund. Is he not aware that the resources of the Family Fund are inadequate to meet the need?
Mr. Ennals: I have already dealt with the second part of my hon. Friend's question. All parents will look at the matter in perspective. I doubt whether the judgment of parents would have been influenced if I had said today that I would guarantee that there would be compensation. What will influence the judgment of parents is the sure knowledge that with vaccination there is a very slight risk—and hardly any risk at all if doctors and parents recognise the indications and do not proceed in cases where the risks are great—whereas, on the other hand, there is a great risk if the vaccination programme does not continue.
There have been some polio cases in this country. There is a real danger that polio, diphtheria and whooping cough will reappear if the present programme of vaccination is not continued.
Mr. David Price: The Secretary of State has reaffirmed the national importance of vaccination across the board. He has also given the House figures about the fall in the take-up of whooping cough vaccinations. Does he not see the connec
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tion between that decline and the lack of compensation? We have been pressing Ministers for 10 years on this subject. Surely he must now see the direct connection.
Mr. Ennals: The Royal Commission was established because of the concern about compensation and civil liability. The Commission will report shortly. It will deal with some of these cases and with other comparable and different problems. It is unreasonable to suggest that we should leap into a decision on this aspect as opposed to the many other aspects that are being dealt with by the Commission. I am sure that the Government will take the proposals of the Royal Commission seriously, particularly in view of the pressures on behalf of these children.
Mr. Spriggs: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many hon. Members are disappointed with his statement today? He appears to be hiding behind the Royal Commission in order to avoid agreeing to make payments of compensation to the parents of affected children. Will he examine the different medical views which divide the medical profession and ensure that he hears each medical opinion of this drug before he receives the final report of the Royal Commission.
Mr. Ennals: There have already been one or two statements about vaccination policy. One of them was by Professor Stewart, who has already given evidence to the Joint Committee. Honourable Members must remember that the Joint Committee has 22 members, all of whom are experts and who have reached a unanimous conclusion. They are medical experts. They examined whether we should proceed with the vaccination programme. They did not examine the question of compensation.
Mr. Adley: Is the Secretary of State aware that there seems to be a worldwide conspiracy in the medical profession to hush up these difficult matters? Does he not agree that his comment that brain damage may—and only may—be caused by whooping cough vaccination is inconsistent with the tragedies suffered by an increasing number of parents? Is he aware that a doctor in my constituency recently carried out an investigation into the circumstances of a

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child suffering from brain damage and was critical of the pre-vaccination examination procedures in this country? Will the Secretary of State pay close attention to that? Is he aware that many vaccinations are given in clinics by people who are in a hurry and who do not know the medical history of each child? Nobody is blaming the Secretary of State personally, but we cannot afford to wait and force these parents to grovel for compensation as they did over thalidomide. He must accept responsibility as the user of the powers obtained by the Department of Health and Social Security in the Health Services Act 1946 and by his Department in 1957.
Mr. Ennals: I used the word "may" because, tragically, many children suffer from brain damage that is not caused by vaccination. One would have to prove that brain damage was caused by vaccination. Many people who are dealing with other cases of brain damage ask why there should be special compensation for one group of brain-damaged children and not another. It is difficult to determine whether an illness occurs naturally or is the result of the administration of a vaccine. I do not believe that the medical profession is seeking to cover up anything. It is as concerned with the health and welfare of children as any hon. Member or parent.
It is important that the medical profession and parents should know enough about both the hazards and the advantages of vaccination so that together they may make a wise decision. That is the purpose of my statement and of the material that I shall make available through my Department, doctors and nurses. I recognise the problems of liaison between clinics and GPs.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. A Question has been answered at the end of Question Time. I deliberately allowed more time for it because of the deep interest in the House and the nature of the subject. I propose to take two more questions from each side but then we must move on. Two hon. Members wish to make Standing Order No. 9 applications.
Mrs. Wise: Does my right hon. Friend accept that he is asking parents to undertake a procedure not simply for the health
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of their children but generally to safeguard the population? Does that not make the issue different from that of other cases of brain damage? The best way to demonstrate his confidence that the risk is small—if he is confident that it is small—is to say that the number involved is so small and the cost of compensation so little that he will go ahead with a satisfactory scheme.
Mr. Ennals: My hon. Friend will recognise my sympathy for a proposal that children who may have suffered brain damage over a period of 20 to 25 years should receive compensation. The number involved is small. But is it a different situation? It would be if vaccination were compulsory. In fact, we do not say that all children should be vaccinated. We have stated clearly that vaccination should not take place where certain illnesses have occurred and where there have been particular conditions—fits, for example. We do not say that everyone should be vaccinated. We say to parents that they should consider with their doctors the best thing to do in the light of the great advantage to be gained by vaccination, both for the individual and for the community.
Mr. Farr: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that "waiting for a Royal Commission to report" is a hackneyed phrase which is of little value in these circumstances because many of the vaccine-damaged children are nearly adults now? Will he say why he has not mentioned the possibility of smallpox vaccination coming under consideration, because evidence exists that some children who have been vaccinated against smallpox have suffered from brain damage? Will the right hon. Gentleman look into that point?
Mr. Ennals: Certainly the World Health Organisation—and this applies to my Department—regards smallpox as having been virtually eradicated as a disease, whereas that does not apply to the other diseases about which I have been talking.
Mr. Corbett: Will my right hon. Friend not think me offensive if I ask him to confirm that it is he who is still running his Department and not the Royal Commission? Will he further explain why—and quite rightly—he wants the vaccination and immunisation programme to go ahead? How can it be that parents are expected to take even the slightest risk if

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my right hon. Friend, having encouraged them to do so in the public interest, does not acknowledge that the public then has a duty to the small number of parents whose children get damaged in this way to do what it can to help the children to live the best possible lives that they can after that damage has occurred?
Mr. Ennals: I believe that parents will decide to have their children vaccinated because they recognise that it is much less likely that the children will suffer in any way as a result of vaccination than it is if they fail to do so. That is the judgment that parents will make. Of course, the question of compensation is of vital importance to that number of people, the children and parents concerned, but I believe that the basic judgment will be taken on the balance of risk and advantage, and all the evidence shows the advantage of vaccination as opposed to the risks.
Mr. Boseawen: I recognise that everyone in the House is very impatient about the length of time that the Royal Commission is taking, but many of us are glad that the right hon. Gentleman has emphasised that there are other cases of children involved. Their claims may not be exactly the same but they have a strong case for compensation. Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is right that they should be included in any examination, as well as the vaccine-damaged children?
Mr. Ennals: It is precisely that point which makes it difficult to pick out one group and to say now that that group must have compensation. It is precisely those points that are in the minds of the Government—and I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Corbett) that I do run my Department—before we take a decision.

VACCINE DAMAGED CHILDREN
Mr. Ashley: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration; namely,
"to ask for an independent inquiry into the whooping cough vaccine and to call for a commitment from the Government to pay compensation to vaccine-damaged children."
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This is a specific matter, firstly, because the Secretary of State has just rejected a request for an independent inquiry into the efficacy and the safety of the whooping cough vaccine despite grave public anxiety. It is a genuine problem because eminent medical authorities are writing in medical journals and appearing on television and what they are saying is that they are opposed to the whooping cough vaccine—not that they are doubtful about it, but that they are opposed to it. They say that the risks of this vaccine outweigh its advantages.
Other countries, notably Western Germany, have dropped the whooping cough vaccine as a routine measure. This conflict between medical men cannot be resolved by ministerial statements and only an independent inquiry can establish the truth. I therefore submit, Mr. Speaker, that the question of an inquiry into the efficacy and the safety of the whooping cough vaccine is a specific matter of public importance that the House should debate urgently.
On the question of compensation, I submit that this is also a specific matter, because hundreds of children are already gravely damaged by vaccines—healthy children transformed overnight into human wrecks who shriek and scream by the hour, or who lie with the minds and the bodies of vegetables.
This submission is important, because the immunisation programme under which these children were damaged was designed for the social good as well as for individual benefit. It has been advocated and supported, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services emphasised to the Opposition, by successsive Governments for the last 20 years, yet before the mass immunisation programme began 20 years ago there were clear medical warnings in America and Britain of the risks in relation to various groups of children. In fact in the Medical Research Council trials of the whooping cough vaccine, those children at risk were specifically excluded by the Medical Research Council, yet for many years successive Governments failed to circulate these clear warnings when they advocated mass immunisation. They therefore imposed upon themselves a clear moral responsibility to pay compensation.

1241
I am speaking as briefly as I can, and I shall end my remarks shortly. However, I want to say that the matter is urgent because the Government are now, by the admission of the Secretary of State, hoping for the Pearson Commission to report, yet the Minister has a clear duty to make up his own mind in the light of clear evidence that I have given to him.
If today the House of Commons allows the Minister to commit himself to waiting for Pearson, as he has asked, and if the Pearson report decides against compensation for vaccine-damaged children, these children will be denied compensation, notwithstanding the talk by the Secretary of State about the freedom of the Government. The weight will be heavily against compensation if we fail to debate that issue now.
Therefore, I submit that the House cannot accept the statement by the Secretary of State and let it pass without a debate, because if the House did that, it would imply consent to a possible rejection of compensation or, at the very least, consent to a delaying tactic at the expense of children—which is, of course, within the rules of the House but beyond the spirit that animates Members of the House.
I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the dangers of allowing this particular Royal Commission to be used to delay Government action. The danger was spelt out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) on the day that this Royal Commission was announced in the House, on 19th December 1972, when he emphasised to the then Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath)—I hope that this will be noted not only by you, Mr. Speaker, but by the Secretary of State—
"that the right of the Government to initiate legislation, and the right of Parliament to legislate on any of these issues"—
that was referring to thalidomide—
"will not be prejudiced by the setting up of a Royal Commission."—[Official Report, 19th December 1972; Vol. 848, c. 1120–21.]
Yet it is precisely that right which the Minister is suggesting we should now defer until the Royal Commission has reported.
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The final reason why we should have urgent consideration and debate is that the whole immunisation programme of Great Britain can be damaged by this dispute over compensation. I do not blame my right hon. Friend for that; he must do what he thinks is right. I must do what I think is right. I submit that the House must decide which is right in a democratic debate. It is only the House which can end this damaging uncertainty.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely,
"to ask for an independent inquiry into the whooping cough vaccine and to call for a commitment from the Government to pay compensation to vaccine-damaged children".
I followed the exchanges this afternoon with great care. As the House knows, it is not for me to decide the importance of an issue but whether it is to take precedence over the business either today or tomorrow. I do not have to give the reason for my decision. I have given careful consideration to what the hon. Gentleman has said, but I have to rule that his submission does not fall within the provisions of the Standing Order and therefore I cannot submit his application to the House.

EMPLOYMENT (MERSEYSIDE)
Mr. Heffer: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration; namely,
"the serious situation of unemployment in Liverpool and on Merseyside, with particular reference to long-term unemployment, which has now reached 25,000 people for over one year and is causing real hardship and poverty".
It is specific because the number of unemployed on Merseyside has now reached 80,572 and has reached 70,793 for the Liverpool travel-to-work area—that is, 10·6 per cent. and 11 per cent. respectively.
It is important because of the effect of this unemployment on the people concerned, especially those who have been out of work for a long time. Those who

1243
have been out of work for more than 13 weeks and up to 26 weeks total 13,770 for the Merseyside development area and 13,501 for Liverpool; for more than 26 weeks and up to 52 weeks, 18,611 have been out of work in Merseyside and 15,648 in the Liverpool travel-to-work area. But I want to emphasise this, and I hope that every Member of this House will take note of it: 24,947 people on Merseyside and 21,967 in the Liverpool travel-to-work area have been unemployed for more than one year.
It is, therefore, in my view an urgent matter, because if this type of unemployment continues, particularly in the long term, there will be even further hardship and poverty for these people. They are no longer receiving their unemployment benefit. There is no such thing as wage-related benefit. They are merely receiving supplementary benefit.
I realise that it can be argued that I am taking up the time of the House on something which is not immediate, but I have only just received the figures. I regard this as a matter of the greatest importance. The House is lucky that I am raising the matter in this way and am not taking more positive action to bring this House to a standstill until something is done about this type of unemployment.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the serious situation of unemployment in Liverpool and on Merseyside, with particular reference to long-term unemployment, which has now reached 25,000 people for over one year and is causing real hardship and poverty".
I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that I have listened with care to the representations that he has made but I cannot rule that this business has to take precedence over the business of the day or of tomorrow. That in no way is to be interpreted as my comment on the importance of the issue.

SCOTLAND AND WALES BILL
Mr. Sillars: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I add my apologies for detaining the House from its normal business.
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I wish to raise three issues which I believe will require a ruling from you with respect to further proceedings on the Scotland and Wales Bill. I thought that it might be helpful to you, the Chairman of Ways and Means, and the House, if I were to raise these matters now and ask for a ruling before we start on Thursday's business.
The questions arise because of a possible conflict between amendments to the referendum clause and schedule and the wording, character and purpose of the Scotland and Wales Bill, and our obligation to and legislative involvement with the EEC through the Treaty of Accession and the European Communities Act 1972.
The first point concerns the opportunity available to hon. Members tabling "independence" amendments to have those amendments selected. As you know, Mr. Speaker, for an amendment to be selected for debate it must be in order. As I understand it, to be in order an amendment must not conflict with the principle of the Bill.
It is here that I must refer you to Clause 1. I shall not read it out, because the House has gone over it on many occasions and I am sure that we are all familiar with it. But the important wording is:
"They do not affect the unity of the United Kingdom …".
Given that Clause 1 now stands part of the Bill, is it not the case that any amendment which seeks to put the independence question would be out of order and therefore stand no chance of selection?
Without doubt, an independence question could affect the unity of the United Kingdom and, indeed, expressly provides the opportunity for that unity to be affected. Is it not the case that the only amendments in order would be those which acknowledged Clause 1 and fell short of affecting the unity of the United Kingdom?
In raising this point, I am not trying to prevent the independence question from being placed on the referendum ballot paper. Along with my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Robertson), I wish to amend the clause to enable the Scottish people to decide whether they want to be independent within the Common Market. I am anxious that such an

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option be available to the people. But I do not want to wait until Thursday to find that such a question has not been selected because it is out of order, and that it is out of order because Clause 1 has been drawn up to prevent just such a question. If I am correct in my interpretation of the restrictive effects of Clause 1, is it possible for you and the usual channels, Mr. Speaker, to devise a way of going back on the offending clause so that the House can alter it and thus widen the options the referendum can offer?
I now come to my second point. That is the question of the European dimension and its effect on the definition, the legislative definition, of independence. If by Thursday we are indeed debating Scottish independence, do the legislative proposals now before us in the Scotland and Wales Bill allow that independence to be outwith the European Community in that the Bill specifically makes provision for the Scottish component of the United Kingdom to be withdrawn from the wider EEC framework of which we are now part due to the European Communities Act 1972 and the Treaty of Accession? As I read it, there is nothing in the Bill, in the Government's clause and schedule, or in the amendments to the clause and schedule, or in any other part of the Bill, which in any way overrides the European Communities Act. But that is only as I read it.
I am asking you to rule on the relationship between the Scotland and Wales Bill and its attendant proposals, and current statute. Will an "independence" question amount to a legislative provision enabling the people in Scotland to repeal the effect on Scotland of the European Communities Act, and to abrogate Scotland's rôle in the Treaty of Accession?
If your ruling is that the Bill provides no such opportunity and that therefore a straightforward "independence" question is bogus, will you rule on the competence and order of the amendment to be tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and myself on independence within the Common Market? I would point out that our question on independence would not challenge arrangements
1246
made for Scotland to be part of the European Community by the Act of 1972, and that places it in a different category from other "independence" questions.
So far, Mr. Speaker, the term "independence" has had a very loose definition. I am sure that you will appreciate the importance of that term's having a correct legislative definition if we are to give the people in Scotland honest options in a referendum. I think in essence that the question of order is whether we can proceed to place "independence" questions on a referendum ballot paper without first, or at the same time, repealing all or part of the European Communities Act 1972, or substantially amending it.
I now come to my third point. This also concerns definition. I would point out, Mr. Speaker, that, while there has been much talk about a referendum on independence, and I have raised the issue with you this afternoon, so far we are missing a correct definition of what is meant by the term "Scotland" I should like you to rule, Mr. Speaker, that if and when we get to debating Scottish independence, whether within or without the EEC, it will not be in order to do so until the House is given the territorial definition of Scotland, which will involve a division of the sea both east and west of the British mainland and the allocation of Rockall, which is presently part of Inverness County Council, with all the oil implications therein. I am sure you will agree, Mr. Speaker, that it would not be proper to proceed to debate Scottish independence and hold a referendum on that vital issue until everyone is clear about what "Scotland" means in terms of territory and resources.
I apologise again for the length of this point of order, Mr. Speaker, but I thought it might be helpful if I raised it now.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars), with his customary courtesy, let me have his point of order in writing, and I therefore have had the opportunity to consider it and, where I needed advice, to look for it.
With regard to the first point which the hon. Gentleman raised—whether an amendment to insert an independence question in the referendum would be in

1247
order—as the House knows, once a Bill is in Committee of the whole House, it is a matter for the Chairman of Ways and Means, and it is not for me to interfere. I have no desire to interfere, and I am sure that the House would not like me to interfere. I ought also to tell the House that, in replying to this point of order, I am doing so having first of all consulted the Chairman of Ways and Means, and he has asked me to tell the House that he fully associates himself with the ruling I am giving on this question.
I turn now to the second and third points raised by the hon. Gentleman concerning the relationship of the Scotland and Wales Bill and the European Communities Act, and the correct definition of the word "Scotland". I am not entirely precluded from expressing an opinion here, for the simple reason that these do not, I must say, appear to me to be points of order at all. The hon. Gentleman has expressed views as to the substance of the interpretation of the Bill, about which he is perfectly at liberty, and he will no doubt seek ministerial assurances within the course of any, debates to which they are relevant, and I fear that he will have to pursue these matters, if he so desires, when the House in Committee turns to the subject again.

BILL PRESENTED
  COAL INDUSTRY
  Mr. Secretary Benn, supported by Mr. Secretary Varley, Mr. Secretary Shore, Mr. Secretary Dell, Mr. Joel Barnett, Dr. J. Dickson Mabon, Mr. Alex Eadie, and Dr. John Cunningham, presented a Bill to increase the limit on the borrowing powers of the National Coal Board, to provide for grants by the Secretary of State to the Board and other persons, to extend the Board's powers and the power to provide pensions and other benefits under the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act 1946; and the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed [Bill 61.]

  NORTHERN IRELAND COMMITTEE
  Ordered,
  That the matter of the Proposal for a draft Criminal Injuries to Persons (Compensation) (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, being a matter relating exclusively to Northern Ireland, be referred to the Northern Ireland Committee.—[Mrs Ann Taylor.)

  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
  Ordered,
  That the draft Electricity and Gas Undertakings (Financial Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1977 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mrs. Ann Taylor.)

  REGISTRATION OF PRIVATE SECURITY FIRMS
  4.26 p.m.
  Mr. Bruce George: I beg to move,
  That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for the registration of private security firms; and for purposes connected therewith.
  The private security industry has mushroomed at a phenomenal rate in the last decade. It has been said that the only industry more profitable is crime itself, and as long as crime flourishes the security industry will flourish. It is enormous if one takes in every aspect of it—the guarding of property—either static like offices or mobile in armoured vehicles or vans—alarms and locks, industrial security, private detectives, store detectives, and so on. The number of personnel employed is way in excess of 100,000, but I have seen estimates suggesting that the figure is actually approaching 200,000, which is infinitely more than we have in the police or in any one of the Armed Services.
  This very sizeable industry is made up of large companies, such as Securicor, Group 4, and Security Express, and an overwhelming number of small and medium-size companies that are outside the umbrella association of the larger companies, the British Security Industry Association. I am not concerned so much with the larger companies as with sections of the smaller companies which make up the industry. The industry is by and large reputable, but in my view and in the arguments of so many others the need for a system of licensing or registration is overwhelming f or a number of reasons.
  In introducing a Bill to provide for such a registration system I am concerned about the ease with which people with serious criminal records can enter the industry, either as directors or as guards. This ease is alarming. It is no exaggeration to say that all one requires is an entry in the Yellow Pages, a guard dog, some old uniforms and headed notepaper, and one is in business as a private security firm. I am compiling a dossier to present to the Home Office listing a number of people in the industry who have serious criminal records which, in my opinion, should disqualify them.
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  I am not pursuing people who have committed crimes years ago, or people who have not committed serious crimes. I support the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. But there are certain crimes which should be regarded as incompatible with membership of a security company guarding people's lives and property. One has only to talk to retired and serving police officers to discover their anxiety about the number of criminals in this work. One should not over-exaggerate, but the danger is there.
  The second argument for a registration system is that surely a private industry like a security industry, with between 100,000 and 200,000 personnel, dependent on one's estimate, should be brought out into the open. It is remarkable how little literature exists on the industry. I should like some form of working party in the Home Office to investigate the size and scope of the industry as a prelude to taking a decision as to the form of licensing or registration which should take place.
  Basically, there are two types of registration feasible. One would be a public board, which I should favour and which would be self-financing. Anyone seeking to enter the industry would have to pay a fee to cover the cost of operating the board. The other form would be self-regulation. The British Security Industry Association feels that it is competent, given assistance from the House and the Government, to establish a system of self-regulation. Although I would prefer the former system, I am open to persuasion about the ultimate form of registration.
  It is ironic to reflect that anyone who wants to run a pub or a driving school or to enter a host of professions must satisfy rigid criteria first, yet one can enter the security industry almost straight from Pentonville or Wormwood Scrubs. Licensing will help to keep the rogues out of the industry. Regrettably, there are far too many in it at the moment. Second, it will improve efficiency. In a robbery in my own town the two security men who were attacked while driving a car were aged 69 and 73. A licensing system would encourage better methods of recruitment and training.
  The main purpose of registration would be to allow the industry to discharge its duties against a background of public

  1251
  trust. Support for my Bill comes from many quarters in the House, from all parties and shades of political opinion. I have the support of, among other organisations, the British Security Industry Association, the Police Federation and the Association of British Investigators, the journal Top Security, as well as of major companies and small companies in the security industry. The principle of registration also has the support of the insurance industry and the academic world. Support is overwhelming.
  It is paradoxical that normally in these circumstances the Government say to an industry that they want to establish rules for it and the industry wants to stay free. In this case it is the industry itself that is crying out for Government intervention and regulation, while the Home Office is resisting the idea. For a variety of reasons the Home Office is obdurate. It says that there is no evidence to show that the number of criminals poses a serious concern. However, in my researches and consultations I have yet to come across any individual or group, other than the criminals in the industry who have most to lose and parts of the Home Office, who is not absolutely certain that registration is the only, as well
  1252
  as a desirable, way of dealing with this problem.
  If I convince the House today, it will then be necessary also to convince the Home Office, which will be very difficult. If I am given permission to introduce the Bill I shall be campaigning until the Home Office provides a licensing system, which will be to the advantage of the industry and, more important, of society as a whole.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Bruce George, Mr. A. J. Beith, Mr. Andrew F. Bennett, Mr. Norman Fowler, Dr. Keith Hampson, Mr. Robert Hughes, Mr. John Lee, Mr. J. W. Rooker, Mr. Paul B. Rose and Mr. Michael Neubert.

  REGISTRATION OF PRIVATE SECURITY FIRMS
  Mr. Bruce George accordingly presented a Bill to make provision for the registration of private security firms; and for purposes connected therewith; And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 4th March and to be printed. [Bill 62.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  NUCLEAR INDUSTRY (FINANCE) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mr. Speaker: Before I call the Secretary of State, I have to announce that I have not selected the amendment in the names of Members of the Liberal Party. However, it is quite clear that their argument can be advanced during the debate if the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) catches my eye—and I should not be surprised if he did.
  4.35 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. Anthony Wedgwood Benn): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  This is the first major debate on nuclear power that I think the House has had since 1974 and I assume that hon. Members will want to feel free to range widely over the outstanding issues of nuclear policy. Your statement just now, Mr. Speaker, that you would be willing to receive arguments in line with the Liberal amendment, encourages me in that view. I should like to touch on the matters raised in that amendment, but first I will deal with the Bill itself.
  The Bill deals with British Nuclear Fuels Limited, with the Radiochemical Centre Limited and with the National Nuclear Corporation Limited. It has a number of objects, which are set out clearly in the Explanatory Memorandum. First, it raises the financial limits laid down in the 1971 Act. Second, it permits Government loan guarantees which are necessary for the raising of money by BNFL. Thirdly, it provides some Government guarantee for BNFL in the event of it being necessary to refund any advance payments. Fourth, it authorises the Government themselves to acquire shares in the NNC as distinct from the provision that they should be held by the AEA.
  Although this is a short Bill, it involves many complicated arrangements and has a background that the House might like to know. I have therefore arranged that, before the Committee stage, a fuller brief on the history and background and nature of these arrangements will be made available
  1254
  for the benefit of the Committee. I have long thought that if Ministers published their briefs, their speeches would be shorter and the House would be more satisfied with the nature of the arrangements. Also, it saves me from memorising them and trying to repeat them when they are in a form which is very difficult to understand because of their complexities.
  I imagine that the House will want to ask one question above all others— namely, does the Bill prejudge the outcome of a planning inquiry in respect of Windscale? I put that at the top of my list because I imagine that that will be in the minds of hon. Members. The answer is clearly, "No, Sir". We are providing statutory authority for BNFL which will not be activated unless and until the planning authority is given. I want to make that absolutely clear. In our judgment, it is necessary to take these powers because we do not want any delay at a later stage.
  Mr. T. H. H. Skeet: The Japanese contract will, of course, involve many storage ponds being built for the reception of the fuel elements. Will they be authorised before the planning permission is granted? They will take about three or four years to build.
  Mr. Benn: I will come to what I can say about that in a moment, but I must make it clear that in nothing that I say am I seeking, or able, indeed, to intervene in the statutory and quasi-judicial powers of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. But since it was never our objective at any stage to damage the BNFL in its world rôle, clearly these are problems to which we have given attention.
  Turning to the Liberal amendment, which will not be called, I should like to deal briefly with the points raised in it because they will be part of the general debate. First of all, on vitrification and the satisfactory completion of a demonstration plant for glassification or vitrification to deal with the waste, I would say that work is taking place on this matter. Of course, under the arrangements to be made with the Japanese, it is provided that it should be possible to return fuel elements brought for reprocessing in the event that the vitrification process does not develop in the way that it is con

  1255
  fidently expected that it will. On that score, I think that the point contained in the Liberal amendment is actually met, unless I am wrong about the intention behind it.
  Mr. Robin F. Cook: The Secretary of State has referred to the question of waste being returned to Japan following reprocessing. What is the Government's reaction to the recommendation of the Flowers Report which specifically suggested that no sound environmental purpose would be served by sending waste back to Japan and appeared to recommend that it should be kept in Britain?
  Mr. Benn: That is a separate question. There was some anxiety about what we had arranged in respect of vitrification and whether Britain was becoming a nuclear dustbin. In the light of the general feeling about that matter, I made it my business to be sure that the option to return the waste in a vitrified form or the unprocessed fuel elements could be provided for under these arrangements. The question whether it would be advisable to return the waste is another matter.
  The second matter in the amendment concerns ultimate disposal decisions regarding nuclear waste and what may be done about it. A number of alternative disposal methods are being considered, on land, at sea or on the sea bed. The House will recall that nuclear waste has already accumulated from our Magnox power stations, and that problem must be solved. In so far as this relates to future work, it can be argued that the option is still open, but a satisfactory method of disposal of existing waste must be found. That work is in hand.
  The third question in the amendment concerns the return of plutonium following reprocessing. That is a matter of considerable interest, for obvious reasons, because of the potential uses which can be made of plutonium. An absolutely clear provision of our existing contracts—hon. Members will note that we already have contracts for reprocessing from abroad—is that the plutonium should be handled under full safeguards. I am not using this argument to divert Liberal Members from pressing their point. I made these three points because I thought that they were important.
  I come now to the question which was raised by the hon. Member for Bedford
  1256
  (Mr. Skeet). The company's construction of an oxide fuel reprocessing plant is subject to a planning inquiry, and this legislation is without prejudice to that. It is important that the company should be able to keep open with its customers the option of undertaking reprocessing business should the outcome of the inquiry be permission to build the plant.
  Two considerations are required if that option is to be preserved. First, consideration has to be given to the capacity to continue to accept delivery of the fuel which is due to arrive under existing contracts. We are in contact with the company on this matter. But since BNFL is not prepared to undertake long-term storage of fuel as an alternative to reprocessing, it is its intention to arrange with customers for clauses to be added providing that if permission is not given for the oxide plant, the company shall, within a set period be entitled to return any irradiated fuel so delivered and that no further deliveries should be made. That is one point, and there is provision for import licensing in that case.
  The second consideration arises in relation to further available business. It is necessary for the company to continue to discuss contracts with prospective customers and to take these, if necessary and if approved, to the point of concluding provisional contracts which would be conditional on the outcome of the planning application for the oxide plant, and it being acceptable to me as the Minister concerned. I am having discussions with the company about procedures along these lines. That is in line with normal commercial practice where the ability to undertake business is dependent on obtaining the necessary planning permission. I assure the House that this in no way prejudices the outcome of the planning procedure.
  Before passing to wider issues, I should briefly mention the background to the Bill.
  Mr. Arthur Palmer: Will the Secretary of State tell the House what is happening to the fuel from the AGR stations until the new processing facilities are available? Is there ample storage capacity at these stations now that the advanced gas-cooled reactors are coming on stream?
  Mr. Benn: That point arises not from foreign contracts but from the need to provide adequate storage ponds at the power stations in the interval before their transfer to Windscale and at Windscale itself. It does not hinge on the overseas contracts. Even so, the expansion of Windscale to meet domestic and foreign needs is subject, and will continue to be subject, to decisions that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment will need to take. We are aware of the problems that might arise if storage facilities were not available and their impact on Magnox or other AGR stations.
  Mr. Skeet: On the point about the Japanese contract, does the Secretary of State have the authority of the United States to return the spent fuel elements to the United Kingdom for reprocessing? As the original charges were given by the United States, we would have to get their authorisation first for their delivery.
  Mr. Benn:I cannot answer that question directly. President Ford, before he retired, made a very important statement in October. I discussed this matter with Mr. Robert Seamans when he came to London. We are at one with the Americans in being anxious not to encourage the proliferation of plutonium which might be used for undesirable purposes. I made clear to him that the proliferation argument should not be used in such a way as to confer a commercial advantage. I imagine that was the point that the hon. Member for Bedford had in mind.
  I do not know how much background I need to give to the House about BNFL. It was decided to set up BNFL when I was Minister of Technology in 1969–70. It was set up under the 1971 Act to take over the fuel functions of the Atomic Energy Authority to whom shares in BNFL were issued. A limit of £75 million on loans and payments to BNFL was set, of which £25 million has been used. BNFL has been a financial success, but, in looking at the 10-year corporate plan submitted by the company at the end of 1975, the range of its potential business and the need for further funds became much more apparent. It covered the fuel cycle requirements of existing nuclear programmes—that was the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer)—and
  1258
  work for overseas customers. On 14th July last year, in reply to a parliamentary Question, I announced acceptance of that part of the plan.
  To break down the figures further, £245 million will be necessary for the Magnox reprocessing at Windscale, £130 million for the extension of the uranium hexa-fluoride plant at Springfields, and £40 million for the vitrification, making a total of £415 million in all. Also, £300 million was set aside or prepared for in the corporate plan for further centrifuge development at Capenhurst under the Treaty of Almelo, to which I was a signatory, all this being subject to contracts. In addition, overseas reprocessing was to be financed by foreign cusomers in a separate plant. That matter was brought before me in September 1975. On 12th March 1976, after some public debate and discussion, I announced Government support for it.
  In addition, proposals related to oxide reprocessing for AGRs and SGHWRs were deferred by the Government. A decision was not taken immediately, because there were areas of policy which were not then decided.
  The new corporate plan provides for a single reprocessing plant for home and overseas, subject to the planning procedures that I have described. This plan requires about £1,500 million over 10 years, of which £230 million would be required between now and 1982–83. Therefore, to allow for inflation, I am seeking to raise the limit to £300 million, with the power to go to £500 million. But even without the reprocessing plant it is the view of my Department and the company that £300 million would be needed.
  BNFL will be able to borrow, with a Government guarantee which in accordance with normal practice would count against the limits. The overseas business would be on an advance payment basis. There would be some provision for Government guarantee if any of the advance payments became repayable. The financial forecasts for the company—this is a matter which the House will want to know about—are based on profit forecasts based on the fact that home generating boards, which represent 60 per cent. of the businesss, have their work done on a cost-plus basis.

  1259
  The centrifuge business is likely to be profitable after the first 2,000 tonnes of production which will take place at Almelo and Capenhurst and the reprocessing would be undertaken on favourable terms. I now turn to the Radiochemical Centre.
  Mr. David Penhaligon: Assuming that the reprocessing did not function, how much money are we committed to returning to the other countries of the world which are offering significant sums to help set it up?
  Mr. Benn: I cannot answer that question without notice because the provisions were for advance payments. I would need to know exactly how far this had gone. But I shall ask my hon. Friend whether he will be able to answer the hon. Gentleman at the end of the debate.
  Mr. Hugh Fraser: With regard to fuel for reworking, there will be five AGRs when they come into full production. What allowance has been made in the present Windscale set up for dealing with this fuel?
  Mr. Benn: It is complicated to explain this. It was one of the items I referred to as having been set aside for further consideration. It is one of the reasons why expansion of Windscale is necessary.
  It would be sad if this debate today were to concentrate solely upon the reprocessing plant, or the element of reprocessing, as if it were only for overseas business. We began a major nuclear programme of our own in 1956, which now gives us 13 per cent. of our electricity generated by nuclear power. That will rise to 20 per cent. when the current AGRs are completed and that is not far away. There is very much a need for reprocessing which is quite distinct and separate from any question of overseas business. That is one of the reasons why BNFL is putting in this application for planning permission.
  Mr. Hugh Fraser: The point is that unless we have a reprocessing plant for our own five AGRs we shall have to send that fuel overseas for reprocessing.
  Mr. Benn: On 12th March last year, after having given careful consideration to it from a Department of Energy point of view, I made absolutely clear what our view was in a statement to the House.
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  The process under which it goes for planning inquiry is a matter for the Secretary of State for the Environment. But it is a process which the Government have thought right. I share that view. It should go through.
  I would make absolutely clear that even with the existing nuclear programme there is a need for reprocessing. That in no way pre-judges the planning procedures but sets the argument into proper balance.
  The Radiochemical Centre, again set up under the 1971 Act with a limit of £5 million, deals in radio isotopes. It has provided a 36 per cent. return on capital. It is building a new plant in Cardiff requiring another £10 million, half of which will come from the AEA and half from the market. In the Bill we provide for the limits to be raised to £15 million with similar Government guarantee provisions.
  With regard to the NNC the Bill empowers acquisition of the shares by the Government because in the 1973 reorganisation it was the AEA which took 15 per cent., which has now risen to 35 per cent., of shares. There was a provision that the Government could hold the shares in BNFL and TRC but not in the NNC. The Bill remedies this. No extra expenditure or compulsory powers are involved. I recommend it as one of the provisions of the Bill.
  Mr. Skeet: Why?
  Mr. Benn: Because it is an absurdity that the Government can hold shares in BNFL and TRC and, through AEA, in the NNC but not directly. It is an anomalous position that we are going to put right.
  I now turn to some broader questions. Britain was the first nation to go for civil nuclear power on a large scale. The Magnox stations ordered after 1956 were then seen by people as the classic case of beating swords into ploughshares. Strange as it may seem, "Atoms for Peace", when first announced was seen as being a dramatisation of that process.
  There has been a tremendous pride in the science and technology of this country which made that possible. It was even said that there was higher safety compared with casualties in other fuels. I would like to pay my warm tribute to

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  those who have worked in the industry over those years. The earlier anxieties about energy supplies led, after Suez, to the decision to build the Magnox stations. These anxieties about world fuel supplies have been confirmed by recent forecasts, of which the OECD forecast is the most recent, which indicate that there could be, and is likely to be, a serious shortage of energy for the world developing in the 1980s.
  But, having said that, there has more recently been some very serious questions raised about nuclear power. The debate about it is not confined to the United Kingdom. Indeed, the United Kingdom debate has been slower to mature than that in the United States, Germany, Japan, France, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, Holland and throughout the world.
  An important debate is now going on about nuclear power. It centres around six issues to which I want to refer in my speech. One is the question of safety in its broadest form—the long-term safety consideration, the disposal of waste, the nature of fast breeder reactors, the possibility of accidents and the problems of transportation for plutonium and, indeed, waste.
  The second issue bears on the completely extraneous, but closely related, question of nuclear terrorism—the possibility of the seizure of plutonium by some hostile force and the possibility of blackmail flowing from that.
  The third question relates to the possibility of some threat to civil liberties deriving from the remedies necessary to deal with nuclear terrorism. I should like to quote from the remarkable speech made by the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) to the Fuel Luncheon Club on 16th October last year. The hon. Gentleman said:
  "The politician—and the public whom he serves—are only beginning to catch a glimmer of the military and civil liberty implications of an energy source involving the widespread production, storage, and movement of plutonium."
  That is a matter with which all hon. Members of the House and others are concerned.
  The fourth question concerns the link between civil nuclear development and nuclear proliferation. I quote from the report of Mr. Justice Fox, published in
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  Australia on 28th October. He mentioned in recommendation No. 3:
  "The nuclear power industry is unintentionally contributing to an increased risk of nuclear war."
  That was Mr. Justice Fox in his statement on 28th October.
  The fifth is some questioning of nuclear costings and investment programmes based upon an increasing economic analysis of what has in the past sometimes gone through under what I have called, by and large, a research and development type budget approach. When we add the cost of waste disposal, the final determination of which is not yet concluded, and the possible movement of uranium costs and other matters, it is right that nuclear costings should be looked at at least as critically as ally other costings.
  The sixth is the argument put forward by those who have another view about the necessity for nuclear power, querying the doom-laden futurologists, to quote the hon. Member for Oswestry again, about the gap, when it will come, will it come here, what contribution could conservation make, are alternative sources being adequately examined, and so on.
  These six questions must be faced and cannot be dismissed as the work of cranks or subversives. There is a tendency to suppose that anyone who questions or who queries the nuclear programme either belongs to what I have heard described as the "sandals and brown bread brigade" or is in some way trying to undermine the whole of our economy. That is not an adequate answer to the questions which have been put forward.
  Mr. Neil Macfarlane: The sixth category to which the right hon. Gentleman referred concerned alternative sources of energy. Is he satisfied with a situation where the Chief Scientist in his Department is also deputy chairman of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority and that this does not result in a twin view which may not produce an objective assessment of the overall alternative sources which could be investigated?
  Mr. Benn: I am well aware of the argument. I have never found it difficult to believe that people can wear more than one hat. There are occasions when

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  I have tried it. We have to differentiate between Dr. Marshall's responsibilities for the AEA and his responsibilities as Chief Scientist to me. Part of the answer which is often given is that it takes some time and some expenditure to develop a programme which can merit expenditure comparable to expenditure going into projects on which expenditure has already been incurred. In other words, it takes a long time to work up and develop a real development programme for new alternative, benign renewable sources of energy. That is an argument very much in my mind, and I want to touch upon it.
  Any Minister in any Government who has responsibility for reaching these decisions must satisfy himself and the House that all these considerations have been examined properly before decisions are made. This does not lend itself to any dispute between political parties nor to any of the traditional arguments with which we are familiar. These are very complex and difficult questions, and I believe that Ministers and Members of Parliament, who are laymen—certainly I make no claim to understand more than something of the jargon of this science—should respond by seeing that adequate information is made available before a decision is taken. The decision must be a political one, otherwise we are abdicating our responsibilities to experts. It must be taken with Parliamentary assent and, in my opinion, if I may pay yet another tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer), the Select Committee has played a very important part in this matter.
  Therefore, I tell the House that it is not because I am afraid of making a decision, but as a conscious decision in itself that must precede decisions, that everything possible should be published to encourage understanding of what is at stake.
  I have heard some people in the nuclear industry complain that they are subject to ignorant criticism by those who do not know the position. The ignorance has been bred by the tradition of secrecy which has surrounded this industry.
  Mr. Albert Roberts: The public have always been sceptical about this and about the costs of nuclear energy.
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  I know that my right hon. Friend is very interested in these matters. But I should like to see some of those fears allayed. Over the years since 1956, we have never had a proper costing of nuclear energy.
  Mr. Benn: My hon. Friend knows the energy industries very well, and he will recall that I referred to one of the six questions as being the need now for a more critical analysis of alternative energy costings, including nuclear, coal, gas and oil, and conservation and renewable sources.
  The tradition of secrecy in the nuclear industry is very easy to understand. It was born in a military history surrounded by the highest secrecy of all. Inevitably, it is a scientific preserve in which those who have knowledge have tended, perhaps unintentionally, to preserve their own special mystique in speaking about it. I have tried to penetrate that curtain by publishing everything possible. I published our evidence to Flowers. On the reprocessing contract, we had a public hearing in Windscale and another one in London, and I would have been very happy if the Select Committee had cared to look at it. There have been questions to the Nuclear Inspectorate in which an Opposition Member played an important part. There has been information to the House about incidents. I shall be publishing the casualty rates in various fuel industries. I strongly supported the planning inquiry now contemplated by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment for the same reason. There must be time for all this to be absorbed—and we have time. I do not accept that criticisms of improper delay can be laid against us in this regard.
  We have not yet explored in full the rôle of renewable energy and of conservation. The Energy Commission, which I hope to set up shortly, will subject the investment programmes of all the fuel industries to a similar critical examination. Only in that way can we permit a true choice.
  I turn now to a timetable for decisions on three areas of concern in nuclear policy. I start with the fast breeder reactor itself. I want to read into the record some of the points which have been made by those whose judgment the House should especially note. The first

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  is a very general comment by Lord Rothschild in The Times on 27th September 1976. He said:
  "No British Government since 1939 has had a greater responsibility put on its shoulders than the present one—by the Flowers report."
  I agree with that.
  In a speech on 8th July, Sir Brian Flowers himself said:
  "There is no doubt that CFR1 can be built and operated, given adequate safeguards and adequate resources, so as to be environmentally acceptable as an object in itself; we therefore do not oppose it. Nevertheless, CFR1 is a billion pound step down a technological path which may later prove unacceptable or even catastrophic. We have already seen that too little effort has been devoted to dealing with the consequences of nuclear power. There is also the danger that inadequate resources will remain to be devoted to the development of alternative energy programmes which might otherwise have made a substantial reliance on nuclear power unnecessary."
  Later, after his report was published, Sir Brian said:
  "It has been said that the need for CFR1 overrides all other considerations. I have sympathy for those who hope to press on quickly; they are dedicated to a technology in which their experience leads them to have faith. But CFR1 does not override all other considerations. It does not override the health of future generations, nor the peace of the world. It would not be contemplated at all if we were sure that there was a viable alternative to the plutonium economy."
  In the speech to which I referred earlier, the hon. Member for Oswestry made some very profound remarks which I should like to read. It was to the Fuel Luncheon Club, and it was reprinted in the Spectator. The hon. Gentleman said:
  "it will be instinctive for many British politicians to want a calm and reflective discussion about the nuclear decisions that have to be undertaken by government during the next decade".
  On the next page he states:
  "In my view"—
  he is now referring to the Flowers Report—
  "the whole tenor of the report indicates the danger of choosing an energy process so devastating in its implications that society itself would have to be remoulded to accommodate the fast breeder reactor."
  Finally, he deals with the question of a proper and informed debate and refers
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  to my demand that it should take place. He states:
  "I want to reinforce his stated intention"—
  that is my intention—
  "I acknowledge that there is always the danger that reflective debate can degenerate into procrastination and a craven fear of decision itself. I do not believe that danger is yet apparent."
  He then says:
  "The debate will encompass press, public and parliament. It will not fall within the neatly prescribed lines of party political affiliation."
  I read those quotations because I believe that there is a case for taking time on the fast breeder reactor. When we come to the thermal system quite different considerations apply. We are talking about the thermal system, not about the fast breeder reactor, and the choice of the thermal system to follow, the SGHWR, that was encouraged by the previous Government and announced by a Labour Government, the strong pressure for the PWR, which has a considerable world export potential, and the AGR, which is now available as it was not in 1974. We have invited proper comparisons by the NNC and a safety analysis of the three systems by the Nuclear Inspectorate. We have encouraged industrial talks with the French on these matters. We have done so because it is important and urgent that the industry should know where it stands on the thermal programme. I hope to make progress, but the House will not be surprised if I tell it that it does not follow that the pace of our nuclear programme will follow precisely that of other countries where certain fuel sources are not available.
  The third issue, which is really what the debate is about, is the reprocessing itself. I have made it clear that I strongly support what has been done by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment in respect of the Windscale inquiry, which is now to be organised by my right hon. Friend. I believe that the Japanese, with whom I have had contact on this matter for a long period, really understand why we are tackling the matter in this way.
  I quote with approval the report of the speech that was made by the hon. Member for Bridgewater (Mr. King) about

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  the need for an inquiry on the Vale of Belvoir coal reserves that appears in today's issue of The Times. If The Times has not quoted him correctly, I hope that he will stop me. The report states:
  "He argued that there should be a wider planning inquiry in which the NCB application would cover the local planning aspects as well as their fundamental energy policy for coal extraction."
  If it is relevant that in the Vale of Belvoir there should be a wider range of inquiry than normal, if it is reasonable in that respect that there should be a width of inquiry—
  Mr. Skeet: I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is running for a planning inquiry commission under the 1971 Act in respect of Windscale. If he has that in mind, that will be a two-year, three-year or four-year inquiry. Surely by that time we shall have lost all our overseas contracts.
  Mr. Benn: The hon. Gentleman must allow me to rest upon the formal position, which is that that is entirely the responsibility of the Secretary of State for the Environment.
  Mr. Skeet: The right hon. Gentleman has some influence.
  Mr. Benn: In this respect there is a difference between relations between two Ministers, one of whom has the statutory responsibility to discharge, especially in matters of nuclear safety, and the other of whom has responsibilities in respect of matters that might be discussed loosely between Cabinet Ministers. I have made it clear that I support my right hon. Friend's decision, but I do not want to comment upon the outturn.
  The full-scale development of nuclear power, including the fast breeder reactor, is neither self-evidently inevitable nor self-evidently wrong. I am not in any way an expert in these matters and, like most thoughtful Members, I want to hear more. I want to know more and I want more time before some of these decisions are made. I believe that we have the time in which to do so.
  We shall no doubt need further debates in the House and elsewhere about the matter. Meanwhile, the Bill merely authorises finance to be released for reprocessing subject to the planning procedures and the decisions yet to be made.
  5.16 p.m.
  Mr. Tom King: The Secretary of State has introduced the Bill in a suitably grave and, if I may say so, a suitably humble way. He has recognised the scale of the problems that are faced in the wider nuclear debate. Surely there are no Members on either side of the House who would dissent from that.
  The right hon. Gentleman has been generous in his tributes to my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) and was kind enough to endorse a comment that I made yesterday that is not a correct quotation. The sense is right but for some reason the sub-editor decided to change some of what I said. However, the sense has ended up where it was.
  Before going on to discuss the Bill, it is appropriate to welcome the hon. Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore) to his new position as Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Secretary of State. I am sure that all Members are aware of what a hazardous position PPS has become. This is the first occasion on which the hon. Gentleman has occupied his place behind the Treasury Bench. Bearing in mind that the hon. Gentleman sits behind the Secretary of State for Energy—perhaps I might refer to the right hon. Gentleman as the hon. Gentleman's present master—he is not likely to be there for very long. I had better get in the welcome fairly quickly in case there is not another opportunity.
  Mr. Benn: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will recall what has happened to all the previous PPSs. They all occupy and grace the Treasury Bench, as I have no doubt my hon. Friend will.
  Mr. King: I believe I am correct in saying that a previous PPS is now leading the revolt against the Government on the devolution Bill. I may be wrong about that, but the hon. Gentleman concerned is certainly not leading the revolt from the Treasury Bench. Perhaps Parliamentary Private Secretaries go their different ways.
  When listening to the Secretary of State introducing a Bill involving potential expenditure of £1,000 million on nuclear developments, it was interesting to hear him attempt to embrace the sandals and brown bread brigade in his closing remarks. I do not mock him for that,

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  but I suggest that there might be an attempt to embrace the sandals and brown bread brigade and the tea-mug brigade to show that we are all together on these issues.
  I recognise that there are real considerations and that it would be a brave man who took a clear decision on these matters at this stage. However, the Secretary of State's timing is not exactly of the highest order in introducing the Bill. Windscale is now much in our thoughts, as it is unfortunately on strike. We have very recently had the incidence of leaks of radioactivity. There has been considerable Press publicity about health hazards and the unfortunate death of a former Wind scale worker, although it is not believed that his death was connected with his work. We are awaiting the possible public inquiry on reprocessing, and the Flowers Report has undoubtedly heightened public concern about all these issues. It is clear, as the right hon. Gentleman's speech brought out, that the Bill, although confined to a narrower subject, widens into the whole question of Britain's nuclear future.
  I shall tend to concentrate more on the Bill, but I make no complaint that the Secretary of State took the opportunity to speak more widely on the present situation, as long as it was not intended to forestall the wider debate that must clearly be held on the Flowers Report in Government time. Clearly, it would not be appropriate to deal with those matters on this Second Reading.
  Having said that this is a bad time to introduce the Bill, it is necessary to put the Bill in perspective and to make clear why my right hon. and hon. Friends will not be opposing this measure. There are a number of matters that need to be put into perspective. The Secretary of State made it clear that a considerable amount of the expenditure will involve improving facilities for Magnox reprocessing. It is clear that our existing processing facilities are badly in need of improvement. There have been recent instances of silo leakages, which only strengthens the point that those facilities need renewal. I believe that the case is clear.
  On the subject of Harvest and the vitrification process, I thought that the Secretary of State tended to get bogged
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  down in considerations involving only the Japanese contract. Harvest and vitrification have wider implications than the Japanese alone and there are also considerations involving United Kingdom waste.
  It is most important in the present situation that we should develop a better disposal system. It must be in the public interest to have the safest possible facilities for the processing of Magnox fuel. The present situation is critical and we must urgently ensure that these improved facilities are available. These proposals are supported by the Royal Commission and Sir Brian Flowers as being necessary. We do not regard the first and second items of expenditure as in any sense a new commitment. However, we must consider the third item, oxide reprocessing. That is a contentious matter and is the subject of a possible public inquiry. I say that such an inquiry is possible because it will depend on whether the BNFL makes an application and whether the procedure is invoked. I shall say a little more about that aspect later.
  I was glad to have the Secretary of State's confirmation that the situation is clearly covered and that, if planning permission is not granted, there will be no contracts and no need for guarantees. I find it difficult to understand certain Press comments on the matter of guarantees. One thread of the argument running through the story in The Observer suggested that it was outrageous to have a guarantee for one customer's money—namely, that if contracts were cancelled and we were unable to proceed with the reprocessing, we would be liable to return the money to the Japanese. I do not see how that consideration comes into the wider argument. It is surely common commercial practice that if a customer has made a down payment for a service, it should be guaranteed, in the same way as a parent company would be responsible in a normal industrial situation. In this case it would involve the Atomic Energy Authority and the Government.
  Mr. Penhaligon: The question is what would happen if there had been a genuine attempt to develop this process and, in the event, it had proved to be a failure.
  Mr. King: That is a matter involving commercial contracts and the way in

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  which they are drawn up. I cannot comment on any matter of negotiation between the Japanese and BNFL. In this situation it is a straight customer-supplier relationship in which contracts will have to be entered into. The Japanese will want to safeguard their money and in such a situation guarantees will be involved. The existence of the potential for guarantees following the passing of the Bill in no sense permits the requirement for a public inquiry to be by-passed. We were glad to have a further assurance from the Secretary of State on that matter, and we accept that assurance in good faith and, provided that it is honoured, we see no problem over the third part of the package.
  Mr. Frank Hooley: Will the hon. Gentleman explain why the British taxpayer and not the Japanese taxpayer should take this risk? If the Japanese decided to build a processing plant in their country, the risk would fall entirely on their own taxpayers and their own economy. The arrangement in this instance appears to envisage the Japanese wanting the arrangement all ways. They want us to take the risk and, if it does not work, they require us to refund the money that has been put up. Is that not a curious commercial argument?
  Mr. King: The taxpayer does not come into the matter. No doubt the hon. Gentleman meant to refer to the British citizen who will have to take the risk, and the hon. Gentleman was examining the matter from an environmental point of view. My understanding is that if the project is to go forward it will do so on a strictly commercial basis, and that it is likely to be extremely profitable for this country in terms of the exchange situation and the profitability to BNFL.
  It is odd that the Liberals have tabled an amendment that appears to have the effect of preventing improvement of the existing Magnox facilities. The effect of the amendment would be to allow further leakage out of obsolete silos at Windscale, which seems to be entirely without the national interest. It must be in the national interest to see that the vitrification process is proceeded with. If the Liberal Party has done its homework, it will be aware that there is a critical situation facing the nation on the subject
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  of Magnox. There is an urgent need to improve the reprocessing situation and, if the Liberal amendment is taken seriously, it must involve the closure of Magnox stations which have an outstanding safety record, and also AGRs. This will mean that we shall lose up to 20 per cent. of present electricity capacity, and we shall also lose our cheapest source of electricity thereby putting up prices to the consumer.
  I wonder whether the Liberals thought out this matter before they tabled the amendment. Yesterday's Press quoted "a Liberal spokesman" as saying that
  "this is not an environmental bandwagon we are jumping on".
  I thought I noticed a slight spring in the Liberal amendment and a certain leap on to the bandwagon without sufficient consideration. Perhaps it was wise to ascribe that remark only to a Liberal spokesman instead of trying to obtain a Liberal Member to endorse that sentiment.
  Mr. Penhaligon: What lay behind the Liberal amendment was the feeling that we were having these matters forced upon us. We felt that there was no conscious decision as to how our nuclear policy could be expanded. We are told that these considerations are justified and that we have to build more ponds and all the rest of it. I was seeking to get the decision put off for some time so that we should be able to have the debate of which the Secretary of State has spoken so often.
  Mr. King: Did the hon. Gentleman or his party oppose the building of the original Magnox power stations? The matter of reprocessing will be covered by a public inquiry, but the Bill initially covers the improvement and restoration of the existing process. Surely that cannot be seen as a further step down the slippery slope.
  I have made clear that we shall not seek to obstruct the passage of this Bill on Second Reading. However, there are a number of questions we should like to ask the Government and we shall seek to probe these matters closely in Committee. We should like first to ask what is being done about the inquiry. We were told just before Christmas of the decision to have an inquiry, and the right hon. Gentleman has now said that he

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  warmly endorses that decision. And yet the BNFL is now having to go to the Government to find out what is happening. Now we have the Japanese here wanting to know what is going on and whether storage ponds will be provided as an interim measure. It appears that we are getting into a very muddled situation. He will be aware that when my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) responded to the Secretary of State for the Environment on this matter he made it clear that we welcomed the setting up of the public inquiry, but that we felt the procedure should go ahead with considerable speed. If a Royal Commission sits for two years, no matter what its findings are, it is probable that the whole project will be killed anyway. It is important, therefore, that we should know what is happening.
  Mr. Macfarlane: Has my hon. Friend read the report in the Guardian that it is extremely likely that this £400 million worth of business will go to France now? In fact, the project already may have been killed. I expect that the Secretary of State for Energy will be slightly relieved that this matter has been transferred to the Department of the Environment.
  Mr. King: I cannot comment on the second part of my hon. Friend's intervention, and I have not seen the reports about the fact that the contract may have been placed elsewhere. That is not my understanding of the matter, but if things have developed in this way it is an indication that overseas customers have no idea of what is happening over the future of reprocessing plant in this country.
  We support the need for a public inquiry and the need to give BFNL an idea of the timetable envisaged. That does not prejudge the situation. These matters should be exposed to full discussion and should not be left pending so long that a decision is taken by default.
  What is the situation over the Americans' attitude? The Secretary of State referred to the views of President Ford's advisers, but there seems to be an indication that President Carter is taking a different view, and that his Government are opposed to the Japanese shipping any fuel for reprocessing to Europe. If this
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  is so, it would effectively preclude part of this discussion if they were not allowed to ship fuel here.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone raised the question of AGRs. My understanding is that a reprocessing plant is not viable unless it has overseas contracts as well. What will happen since we have an AGR programme—and there is one already in my constituency at Hinckley Point—starting to produce waste fuel? Will it have to go to France and will the French have a monopoly in reprocessing this fuel?
  I find the whole present situation rather strange. I notice that it contrasts with the situation in Japan. The Japanese have laws which say that no nuclear operating licence will be granted unless the operators have adequate provision for dealing with spent fuel. We have a situation in which AGRs are already producing, and yet there is no provision for handling the spent fuel which they are producing. We also have a situation in which the Magnox position is quite critical, and we seem to be fairly laggardly in dealing with it.
  In looking at the Flowers' Report one is struck by the importance attached to the matter of disposal of waste. Once upon a time people were much more worried about the operation of nuclear power stations, but now they realise that the key problem is that of waste. We have not yet had the opportunity to debate the report, but its major proposal was for the establishment of a nuclear waste management advisory committee, and a nuclear waste disposal corporation responsible to the Department of the Environment. Although this was the key recommendation of Sir Brian Flowers' Commission the Secretary of State has said nothing about it.
  It is worth quoting the final paragraph of that report:
  "Until now, there has been a diffuse pattern of responsibility with the result that too little has been done. This will not do in future. Radioactive waste management is a profoundly serious issue, central to the environmental evaluation of a nuclear power programme. There must be a clear, identifiable, policy centre and a means to ensure that the issues posed by waste management are fully considered at the outset of a nuclear programme, not dealt with many years after the decisions on developments that lead to the wastes have been made and when options may have been effectively foreclosed."

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  That was part of the point being made by the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon) that decisions cannot be made years after the original development has gone ahead. That is the situation in which we now find ourselves. I was not encouraged by the Secretary of State who glibly said that this matter was in hand. I wish I had more evidence that it was being pursued with more urgency. Unless we resolve this matter our future nuclear programme is dust. A suitable method of waste disposal is a precondition of any nuclear expansion.
  Against this background there must be considerable anxiety and doubt about the future development of our nuclear programme. There are a number of uncertainties. The only person who seems utterly confident is Lord Kearton who baldly stated:
  "There is no major technical problem for nuclear energy developments in the next 20 years."
  Perhaps that is why he is with BNOC. I would be worried if he were directly involved in our nuclear strategy, because I do not think that anyone would share his view.
  I endorse what the Secretary of State said about the quality of our nuclear industry. The Flowers Report which is a balanced and sensitive approach to a very difficult problem—and not at all anti-nuclear as some have claimed—says this:
  "We believe that the standards of safety in engineering design of nuclear plants are of the highest."
  It went on to say, and this should not be overlooked:
  "Moreover, we accept that, operating normally, nuclear installations offer the possibility of much less pollution than conventional fossil fuelled stations."
  Lord Kearton made one subsequent point:
  "I think that most people would agree that in the twenty-first century nuclear energy is going to be the key to the world's energy demands."
  We have talked about the possibility of an energy gap. It could just be that nuclear energy might be the only possible way to fill that gap. Whatever may happen with solar, wind, geo-thermal, tidal, wave and other benign sources of energy, there is no guarantee that these will be available. Therefore, we need
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  to maintain our options. The option of nuclear power will not be kept open unless research into waste disposal is pursued much more actively.
  Sir Brian Flowers says that too little has been done, and this will not do in the future, so the whole House will look to the Government for effective recognition of that implied criticism. I have said that nuclear energy may be the only possible way.
  But clearly we should be examining as fast as we can just how viable are the possible alternative sources of energy. Recently the Government announced that they were trebling the funds available for research into alternative benign energy resources from £500,000 to £18 million. That takes the amount up to just precisely 1 per cent. of the money being spent on research and development on nuclear energy. These figures speak far louder than any words I could utter. Let me quote Sir Brian Flowers' words to the Energy Forum when he said:
  "we do not believe that the long term implications and the alternatives including conservation have been sufficiently explored. Although a start has been made, certainly they have not yet been explored with the kind of dedication and with the level of resources which have been devoted to the design of the nuclear plants themselves. It is difficult to accept that a massive increase in the nuclear power programme should be envisaged until these matters have received commensurate and responsible attention."
  At the end was the word "(Applause)", and I think that if Hansard included a similar comment in its report of our proceedings it would appear there, too, in response to that view.
  Mr. Hooley: Does the hon. Member recognise that this is precisely one of the most powerful arguments against this Bill? If the House votes to pre-empt £1,000 million for purposes related to nuclear energy where is the public expenditure to come from for all the other resources?
  Mr. King: The Bill does not provide for the spending of £1,000 million. It is a much more limited sum for the improvement and refurbishing of the reprocessing facilities. Half the expenditure, in the form of guarantees for overseas payments, may not arise at all, if the planning inquiry finds against the existing processing facilities. As I see it a strong environmental case can be made

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  out for the Bill. I am not happy to think that the present deteriorating facilities at Windscale should stay there any longer than the absolute minimum period necessary, and therefore I believe that this aspect of the Bill has a very sound environmental basis. But I recognise that it still involves a substantial amount of money, and that further serves to underline the small amount of money being spent on research into alternative sources of energy.
  We cannot do all this on our own, but I hope that we can do it in a wider European or international collaborative effort. That is one of the further options that we must actively pursue.
  The Bill is therefore an interim measure in the much wider issues of the nuclear debate. It does not prejudge or pre-empt the very crucial decisions that will have to be taken in the future, not only on thermal reactors, or the question of fast breeders, or on the question of reprocessing of fuels from overseas. For the limited measure of improvement it offers to existing facilities and for the improved research into waste storage we welcome it.
  5.43 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Palmer: I rise to support the Bill in general terms because I believe that a strong and developed nuclear capacity is essential to the energy future of the United Kingdom for the production of electricity. The Bill deals mainly with processing and reprocessing facilities but it should be seen as allowing for what is, after all, an integral part of nuclear power production as a whole.
  The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) was absolutely right to refer to the urgent situation which is now arising in the Magnox power stations. They are turning out the cheapest electricity at present available in this country. Their ponds are getting uncomfortably full, and unless something is done quickly about this problem the stations will have to reduce output. The Japanese or any other foreign contracts are important economically. We have these facilities, which have existed for a long time, and if we can act commercially by making them available at a profit to overseas customers surely there is no rational objection to that.
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  When I speak, however, of a strong nuclear and generating capacity I do not minimise the importance of electricity from coal-fired stations. The bulk of our electricity is still produced from such stations, and that is likely to continue for a considerable period ahead. Nuclear output is 15 or 16 per cent. of the total. If the AGR stations come fully in, the figure may climb to 20 per cent. The rest of our electricity will have to be provided by coal, however in the main. Therefore, it is not a question of these energy sources for the making of electricity being competitive, as we thought a few years ago. The truth is that they are complementary to each other in terms of supplies if not always of price.
  I do not belittle either the contribution of properly developed renewable energy resources. Both the hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Forman) and my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Hardy) will know that because they, too, are on the Select Committee. The Committee is working hard on the question of renewable resources against the background of the Flowers Report. It is trying to put into perspective the commercial fast-breeder reactor. The Committee faces in fact the difficulty of escaping from energy. It is the Select Committee on Science and Technology, but such is the importance of and present interest in energy that we shall have to take care not to become almost permanently fixed on it: the energy question tends to obsess all of us today.
  But I am driven to the nuclear conclusion, in spite of paying tribute to what can come from coal and possibly from renewable resources, and assuming that in the future we shall not burn oil and natural gas in power stations. Coal supplies in any case will always be somewhat limited. Coal supplies cannot climb indefinitely—not because there is a lack of resources, but because of the increasing shortage of miners to get the coal out. It is not the kind of work which men are always anxious to do; to have their health ruined in the process of doing it. This used to be one of the favoured arguments for developing a British nuclear capacity. It was argued that if we developed that capacity we could avoid the need for men to risk their lives and their health getting coal out. Whenever there is full employment here and abroad

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  it is difficult to get miners. I believe that the supply of miners will continue to limit the output of coal.
  Of course, we could perhaps devise matters so that there was no growth in electricity demand; we could possibly transfer the energy demands away from electricity to other primary sources. In that way we could, in theory, avoid nuclear development. But I accept the evidence given to the Select Committee recently by the CEGB about the future growth of electricity demand though it is common ground that that growth will not be on the scale of the past 20 years. The Board is now making two assumptions, working out one set of figures based on 3·4 per cent. growth per annum, and another set based on 1·3 per cent. growth per annum.
  With the higher figure there will have to be about one new power station per year from about 1980 to 1985 onwards. I am not arguing about whether it should be nuclear or otherwise. If one accepts the lower figure, once Sizewell has been constructed and one has taken into account the SGHWR proposed for Torness in Scotland, not much more will be needed for a considerable period. But one can never tell. If the economy picks up again, clearly much more electricity will be needed than is now being used. It is a hit and miss business, and instead of making careful estimates I would put the figure at somewhere between the two extremes, at about 2½ per cent. per annum. That means that eventually there will be needed a considerable extra amount of generating capacity. In any case, old power stations wear out and have poorer thermal and load factors, they have to be replaced.
  The Minister referred to the fear that towards the end of the century oil and natural gas supplies from the North Sea are likely to be exhausted. Imported oil will be scarcer and will become more difficult to obtain as well as being very expensive. If railways are still running then, the remaining diesel locomotives will come to a standstill because of the lack of oil to run them. Electrification of the whole railway system will be essential. Domestic and commercial heating, which is now being lost by the electricity industry—perhaps that is understandable for cheaper natural gas is available—will
  1280
  have to return to electricity for there will be nowhere else for it to go. Therefore the need for a larger nuclear generating capacity at the end of the century cannot be escaped.
  I want to refer to what the Minister said about the change in attitude towards nuclear power that has taken place over the last decade. When the nine Magnox stations were being planned, giving 4,000 megawatts of nuclear capacity, nobody seemed to doubt that nuclear power would eventually take over. Many hon. Members from all parts of the House, as well as many people outside the House, were proud of the special British contribution to the gas cooled technique that was then beginning to flower into the AGR-style reactors. We led the world and we were proud of it. All the components of the nuclear situation that we now have were present then. There was a thermal reactor programme, research and development on the fast breeder had been started at Dounreay, and there was processing and reprocessing of nuclear fuels at Windscale.
  So, 15 years ago the situation was the same, in essence, as it is now. If there are risks now, they also existed then, but there has certainly been a change in attitudes. I wonder why. It cannot be because there has been a major nuclear catastrophe in this country or in the rest of the world. Indeed, from the experience of power plant engineers, it is still more dangerous to life and limb to work in a coal-fired power station—and I have done so, so I speak with practical experience—than in the relatively calm, austere atmosphere of a nuclear reactor station.
  If there has been a change, it cannot be because there has been any carelessness over safety standards for projected nuclear stations. Standards are rising as a result of experience. Many people believe that the CEGB in its safety standards for the SGWHR—and this is particularly considered to be the case by the South of Scotland Board—is being over-elaborate. The Select Committee questioned Sir Arthur Hawkins closely on the matter. I do not have time to refer to his evidence. It is contained in the report of the Select Committee and it is available to the House. He went over a whole range of new risks for which he felt the CEGB should allow in future.

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  So we know from experience that none of the dreadful things that have been predicted has occurred, and even greater care is being taken in future. What then is the explanation for the change in attitudes? What are the alarms that trouble so many people and that cause environmentalists to flourish? I heard what the Minister said about brown bread and sandals. That was a useful expression if I may say so. But many of the engineers with whom I mix and who work in nuclear power stations are not soulless technocrats either. They are simply aware of the fact that if one eats modern brown bread, it will be made in factories that need electricity. Most of the sandals sold in Marks and Spencer have electricity used during their manufacture I suspect.
  If the wilder environmentalists really wish to do without nuclear power stations—there are even environmentalists who are opposed to coal-fired power stations and who object to coal mining when it is done in their area—I could understand their outlook better if they all want to live on a desert island and worked for 12 to 14 hours a day, sweating out their own living, ploughing the soil and growing their own food. But when they freely use all the sanitary appliances of modern society, when they type their anti-nuclear articles on typewriters made in factories powered by electricity, I am worried about their intellectual and, sometimes, their moral consistency.
  There may some connection of course in an old industrial society like our own between the disdain that is felt for nuclear power and our failure to recruit enough young men and women into engineering and the sciences. Instead, such people take up sociology or merchant banking or some other esotric profession. Perhaps in an old industrial society, a people with great past achievements of technology, tend to turn against it in the present. That is a great risk for a country such as ours that is struggling to maintain its economic position in the world to take.
  Without accusing all those who disagree with me of wearing sandals or of permanently consuming brown bread, I want to quote from paragraph 499 of the Flowers Report, because that is now
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  generally regarded as the bible in these matters. Sir Brian Flowers truly said:
  "Nuclear power provides a dramatic focus for opposition in some countries to technological development and we have no doubt that some who attack it are primarily motivated by an antipathy to the basic nature of industrial society, and see in nuclear power an opportunity to attack that society where it seems to be most vulnerable, in energy supply …".
  I leave the House with that valuable thought. I do not decry the genuine doubts of many people who oppose nuclear power, in whole or in part, for most sincere reasons, but things must be put into perspective and the reactionary motivation of some opponents examined. I agreed with my right hon. Friend when he said that we must have the utmost public discussion, but this will not. I hope, continue to the point where endless talk becomes a substitute for action.
  Mr. Hooley: Has it occurred to my hon. Friend that if the same concern had been shown 70 or 80 years ago about the hazards and dangers in the coal industry as some people are now expressing about the nuclear industry, we might have been spared Aberfan and other grotesque and grisly accidents which have disfigured the mining industry?
  Mr. Palmer: One can always look back at history and see what could have been done. But thank goodness we developed our coal industry by whatever means because our industrial prosperity was built upon it. I agree with my hon. Friend that we should learn from the past when we can, but I am anxious to keep a proper and calm balance in these matters for the future.
  Mr. Penhaligon: The hon. Gentleman and I share the distinction of being among the few qualified engineers in the House. The hon. Gentleman was first elected when I was just one year old. My contact with people in many technical areas suggests that there is considerable concern about these issues and for him to dismiss that concern as "brown bread and sandals" is not good enough.
  Mr. Palmer: I did not dismiss it in that way. I merely pointed out that brown bread had to be processed by electricity—nuclear or otherwise—and that electricity also made a contribution in the manufacture of Marks and Spencer

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  sandals. I am staggered by the statistic which the hon. Gentleman quoted. I did not believe from appearances that I was that much older than he.
  It is because I believe that endless talk should not be a substitute for action that I have tabled a Question to my right hon. Friend asking him to let the House into his thinking and ideas on a national energy policy. The House needs and now deserves more information on the energy intentions of the Government. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will agree that that is why we have a Secretary of State for Energy; he has to look at the whole picture; not to do the job of other people but his own because he alone can do it.
  There has been much past talk on these Benches about the need for a national energy policy. We now have the opportunity if we take it to create at least the outlines of such a policy. It will mean taking decisions that are sometimes unpopular and uncomfortable, but that is the nature of Government.
  I welcome the Bill. It is a robust measure and it encourages me as it will the nuclear and power supply industries. The trade unions in the electricity supply industry have been concerned about delays and hesitation over the provision of extra nuclear processing facilities which are so badly needed as we have said. They do not object to the environmental inquiry, but they hope that it will not take too long because this matter is now urgent.
  My right hon. Friend paid generous tribute to the work of the Select Committee on Science and Technology which has been in existence for 10 years. The establishment of a State-owned commercially operating nuclear fuel company was one of our recommendations and we also pressed successfully for the setting up of a single design and construction company. These were not controversial issues between the parties and, perhaps through electoral chance, the Conservatives brought in the necessary legislation to implement these sound recommendations.
  British Nuclear Fuels Ltd. has been a fair success story. It is a State-owned company and made a gross profit of £9 million last year. We on this side of the House who believe in public enterprise
  1284
  should be glad of its success. The Bill will give the company further financial strength by guaranteeing its loan capital. Can my hon. Friend who is to reply to the debate tell us whether this capital is to be raised privately or by an issue of additional Atomic Energy Authority shares?
  Clause 3, which has not yet been mentioned, allows the Government to buy additional shareholdings in the National Nuclear Corporation Ltd.—the manufacturing concern. I welcome this because the Corporation is the single design construction company which was first recommended by the Select Committee. Unless some private enterprise groups are cobbled together, it will be our only nuclear manufacturing capacity and it is important that it should succeed in reactor and component manufacture not only nationally but internationally.
  The latest report of the Select Committee is important and deals with the continuing saga of nuclear reactor choice which has, perhaps, gone on for too long. We have made a number of constructive suggestions to expedite matters, I hope.
  One part of our report draws the attention of the House to the quality of advice which has been given by experts to successive Governments and Parliaments. There has been much contradictory nuclear advice and although experts will always disagree, we feel that they have been disagreeing a little too much in the past. The Committee suggests that the Government should have an improved centre of advice. We suggested in 1973 that a nuclear power advisory board should be set up as a permanent institution—not just to meet occasionally and to be a forum for warring and contending interests. We suggest in our latest report:
  "In the light of experience since 1974 we believe that the case for an effective Nuclear Power Advisory Board has been strengthened, and that the Secretary of State should once again consider the possibility of appointing a new Board, with a full-time Chairman independent of any of the competing interests, and with the responsibility for ensuring that advice to the Government on nuclear power policy is coherent, consistent and free of preconceived attitudes."
  Provided that it was genuinely independent of special interests, a body of that type would be of great value to the Government. It could give advice which might be better than the advice that Governments have received in the past; fewer

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  Select Committee inquiries would then be required. I welcome the Bill.
  6.10 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Fraser: The House will welcome what the hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer) has said and congratulate him on his knowledge of the industry and the excellent work that he has done in the Select Committee.
  We hoped that when the Minister adumbrated his general views on nuclear power that he would give us more of an energy and nuclear policy than he did. I say that without hesitation even when faced with the Liberal amendment. Unfortunately, it is no longer true that this country leads the world in nuclear capacity and power. I recognise the difficulties which the Minister has in reconciling the viewpoints of the Friends of the Earth or the Flowerites as opposed to those who take a more rough and tough attitude to the problems that lie ahead.
  The Minister must explain to the people the problems that will face the country in 20 or 30 years' time. It is not just a matter of the dangers. One must remember that the environment does not consist only of a pellucid atmosphere but the ability of people to live in large urban concentrations and to manufacture and perform all the functions that modern industrial society demands. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley) said that it would have been better if we had done more to make coal mining safe, but to take his analogy, if by making coal mining totally safe we would make nuclear engineering impossible we would be faced, by the end of the century with thousands of millions of pounds worth of industrial equipment that could no longer be used.
  We are lucky, because we have 300 years of coal supply. Our problem is to get the people to mine that coal. We are surrounded by oil and gas—for the present. We should remember the pressures on the outside world. We should think how the world will survive in the next 30 years. Whatever the Flowers Committee may say there is no doubt that the demand for nuclear power will grow as inevitably as the demand for steam power grew. According to the his
  1286
  tory books, steam power was regarded as highly dangerous 200 years ago.
  Decisions must be made on a broad scale. I complain that the Secretary of State has taken none of those broad decisions. He does not face the issue by referring matters to an energy conference, energy committee or consortium. The Government might take a leaf out of the SNP's book. If they have not said this I shall say it for them. Over the next few years enormous sums of money will accrue to the Government by way of tax on North Sea oil. That money should not be spent on day to day general expenditure. It should be used for investment to ensure that our power supplies are refurbished when they come to an end. Any Government should do that. They should put aside money annually and invest it in replacing that power when it is lost. The money will not be wasted.
  The power of the future will be nuclear power. Solar energy and other benign forms of energy can only contribute a small percentage to our demand for power. They might replace hydro-electric power, but most of our future power will come from the development of nuclear energy. There is no other way. The Friends of the Earth may prove to be the enemies of the people unless they keep their arguments in proper balance.
  I now turn to the more technical aspects. The Government should reach a fairly speedy decision on the fast breeder reactor. A decision cannot be long delayed. We still have an advantage over the rest of the world. If we are right that nuclear power is the power of the future there will be a shortage of uranium as surely as there will be a shortage of oil. The fast breeder reactor therefore requires more urgent consideration than has been given by the Minister today. He talked of the various problems involved with the fast breeder reactor. I advise him to read the speech by Lord Hinton of Bankside who talks of the stability of the nuclear stage and says that the fast breeder reactor produces greater internal stability than other forms of nuclear equipment. It is a pity that nuclear fusion seems to have been hit on the head by rows between the French and British Government.
  The immediate problem that faces the country is that there is no immediate

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  demand for further power stations. It would be folly to build further power stations now. We must concentrate on one area so that we can keep our nuclear teams with us and find employment for many people in heavy power engineering—and they must be mainly in the export industry.
  The Government have wasted time. They were probably right as an economy to cut £40 million out of their programme on the SGHWR last July. The reports which have been published both by the "Think Tank" and the Select Committee clearly show that the SGHWR, or even the AGR, offers little chance of export gains over the next few years. The Government and the House must do some pride swallowing in the immediate future and accept that this Government, and perhaps the last Government, made a mistake. If there is no immediate demand—although there is an enormous middle and long-term demand—for nuclear stations we must concentrate on the export aspect. I believe that that can be done now only by operating under licence from the United States, Sweden or German on what I believe are called the light water reactors, whether it be PWR or the boiling water reactor.
  This is a decision that ought to be taken by the Government in the near future. They ought to take the decision rather than toy with the idea of building a new coal-fired power station at Drax, where already there has been trouble.
  This area of nuclear power is an area in which undoubtedly we have had a lead. It is a lead that we may have lost, but we have excellent people who should be kept in employment and given enecouragment and who should be able to see that they have a future ahead of them.
  Therefore, I make three points. The Minister really must decide, and tell the House soon, what the energy policy of this country is to be over the next 20 years. Secondly, the present Government and any future Government should assure the country that they will not dissipate in day-to-day expenditure resources that flow from oil but will put money aside for seeing that the power institutions of Britain are properly kept in order. Thirdly, a decision should be
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  taken, and soon, on the ways of keeping our exports of nuclear fuel, nuclear plant and nuclear machinery effective.
  Those are decisions that the Government should take within this Parliament, if not within the next few months.
  6.22 p.m.
  Mr. Robin F. Cook: I feel compelled to begin by advising the House that I never wear sandals and that I much prefer morning rolls to brown bread. Perhaps it is as well to put that on record, because some of what I am about to say may be construed as hostile to and critical of the nuclear industry. Because that is the case, perhaps it is as well that I also put on record that, although the burden of what I shall say will relate to the oxide reprocessing plant, as it is part of the operations to be financed by the moneys released by the Bill, that does not necessarily imply that I am opposed to all the other operations that will be financed by the money released by the Bill. On the contrary, I accept as essential and desirable the development of the new Magnox reprocessing plant and particularly the vitrification plant that will also be partly financed by the money released under this provision.
  I should like to say to my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer), through you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and it is a general point worthy of consideration, that those of us who have made speeches critical of expansion of the nuclear industry do not therefore necessarily criticise all that has been achieved so far, do not necessarily want to undermine the present state of the nuclear industry, and do not necessarily oppose even a modest expansion of the present nuclear industry.
  However, what terrifies us is to read documents, such as the evidence of the Atomic Energy Authority to the Royal Commission, which forecast a twentyfold increase in nuclear power generation by the end of the century, or to look at the Marshall Plan, produced by the Department, which suggests increases in such generation of between tenfold and twentyfold by the end of the century. We are seriously concerned, and it is very difficult indeed to reconcile those very ambitious expansionist plans with the calm balance to which my hon.

  1289
  Friend referred and for which he was asking.
  The Secretary of State referred to the amount of information that he has made available to the public and the House since taking over his present post at the Department of Energy. I think that all hon. Members will welcome the additional information we have been given about the nuclear power industry over the last few months. However, it has to be said in this debate that we are in some difficulty in debating a measure that provides some £500 million in loans to BNFL and the nuclear industry and a further £400 million in guarantees when we do not yet have the Government's response to the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution.
  It is only four months since the Royal Commission lodged its report. I entirely accept that four months is not an unusual delay for a Government to have in coming to a considered view, though it must be said that we might be more tolerant of that four month delay had it not been for the fact that the Chief Scientist at the Department of Energy appeared on the same day on which the report was published to give his own reactions to the report at a Press conference organised by the Atomic Energy Authority, aptly dubbed by the New Scientist as the "Anti-Report Press Conference". Nevertheless we accept that the Government have difficulty in proposing a response to such a lengthy document. However, it is difficult for us to come to a view, in particular on the reprocessing plant, to which I shall now direct my remarks, till we have the Government's response to some observations of the Royal Commission.
  For instance, Recommendation No. 38, to which I referred earlier in an intervention, says that there will be no environmental advantage in returning treated waste to the country of origin. What is the Government's response to that? If the Government's response is to accept the advice of the Royal Commission that there is no environmental case for returning treated and vitrified waste to Japan—and after all, as the Royal Commission points out, if one believes in geological burial it is daft to send it to Japan, which is an area of earthquakes—what is
  1290
  the help to the House in knowing that in the contract there is provision for insisting that the waste be sent back? This is a precise recommendation to which we must have the Government's response before we can resolve in our own minds the question of the reprocessing plant which will be producing a large amount of that waste.
  There is also, and more fundamentally, paragraph 378, which says,
  "If it were eventually decided that the use of fast reactors could and should be avoided or indefinitely postponed … the option of not reprocessing"—
  I repeat, "not reprocessing"—
  "the fuel elements is one that should then be seriously evaluated."
  In other words, taking the logic of that paragraph, it would be more sensible and rational to decide, first, whether we are to have a programme of fast reactors in the foreseeable future before we resolve the questions of building and providing finance for the reprocessing unit, which makes economic sense only—I shall return to this point—if we are to have a programme of fast reactors.
  If I may return to something said by my right hon. Friend in opening the debate, in answer to an intervention from an Opposition Member, if I caught my right hon. Friend rightly I think that he said that it was essential that we should have a reprocessing facility for our AGR programme. I am only a layman in these matters and I stand to be corrected if I am wrong, but I always understood that it was not essential to reprocess the fuel of the AGR programme. We know that in the Canadian programme oxide fuel does not need reprocessing. On a recent visit that I made to Windscale, accompanied by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield. Heeley (Mr. Hooley) it was made plain in private conversation by a scientist on the Harvest project that there was no particular advantage in first reprocessing. In other words, one can go straight from spent fuel to vitrification or deep burial. Reprocessing is not necessarily an essential part of the fuel cycle.
  There is another document before the House in this debate besides the report of the Royal Commission. That is the report of the Committee of Public Accounts. That Committee made a report six months ago in which it touched on BNFL's finances. In referring to the

  1291
  future capital programme of the company, it said that the programme should not go ahead unless
  "there are good prospects, carefully assessed, of a fully adequate return, bearing in mind the degree of commercial risk involved."
  Frankly, when we come to regard the Bill, it is quite clear that the only people who will be taking a commercial risk are the public and the taxpayers, because at the end of the day it will be Government who will he liable for repaying any loans to the company and Government who will be liable for making repayment to any customer whose contract BNFL has not been able to fulfill. The commercial risk, such as it is, is being taken entirely by the State.
  If we look at the history of oxide fuel reprocessing we find that it is not surprising that the private sector has been very 10th to commit itself in this field because, although very little oxide fuel reprocessing has been done since the start of nuclear energy generation, the losses in that time have been very impressive. For instance, in the United States the Midwest plant, which was built and completed some years ago, has never come on stream, and the investment in that plant of $64 million has been written off. Similarly, the Getty plant, also in the United States, has now ceased to trade, and the company is desperately trying to get out of contracts for some $180 million worth of reprocessing because it estimates that to carry through those contracts would cost it between three and 10 times the original contracted figure. In other words, in both cases the United States, with a nuclear energy business which compares with our own, has found it impossible to make the operation commercially viable and successful.
  It is relevant to look at the two reasons why they have failed to make a commercial success of the business. The first is that both the two plants in operation and the third plant being brought on stream constantly had to face improvements in the regulations for environmental standards and radiation protection. As I have said, I am a layman; I am not a technical man, but I am moved to ask, if it is proving so expensive to reprocess oxide fuel in America, and if it is going to be comparatively so much cheaper to do it in Britain, is it not possible that part of the reason is that the regulations, the
  1292
  radiation protection standards, we are setting are that much lower? I note that only last month the United States Environmental Protection Agency produced radiation standards for protecting the public, 20 times more stringent than those in operation in the United Kingdom. This was reported in an article in the New Scientist which added that these standards will be particularly relevant in the vicinity of reprocessing units. I do not think that any hon. Member can be happy at providing the finance for the development of such a plant when our environmental radiation standards are, by a factor of 20, very much behind those of the United States.
  There is a contrast in that the discharge rate from Windscale has clearly gone up in the past five or six years. Over the latest two years, for which figures are available, the level of discharge of caesium has gone up tenfold. Given all that, it is difficult to believe that Wind-scale will be able substantially to increase the amount of fuel reprocessing whilst keeping the level of discharge to even the present—by historical standards—comparatively high levels.
  The other reason why the United States has failed to develop a commercial oxide fuel reprocessing industry is the concern of its Government to control reprocessing from the point of view of arms control. We have to take on board the expressions of concern in America by the Administration, by ex-President Ford, and by President Carter when he was Presidential candidate. It is a serious and challenging question. It not only touches the internal security of each nuclear country which develops a reprocessing plant, but there is also the proliferation of nuclear weapons which will undoubtedly come about if there is an expansion of reprocessing facilities throughout the world.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East indicated that there is a difference between the generations on their perception of nuclear power. At the end of the war, many were in favour of nuclear power, while many of those not present at the time—for example, the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon), and I myself, who was not born at the time—and who have since come into the House, have become rather more sceptical of the potential of nuclear power generation.

  1293
  Undoubtedly, one of the reasons for the different perceptions is that, at the end of the war, when the major Powers were embarking on nuclear weapon programmes, it was found that they were so costly and consumed so much effort that there was a natural assumption that lesser States would never be able to follow them down this road. It is only now that we are able fully to grasp that once a country is given a nuclear energy industry it will be comparatively easy for it to use that industry to transform itself into a nuclear weapon State.
  Mr. Jim Marshall: Is my hon. Friend unable to perceive that perhaps the converse of the argument applies? If it is a fact that there are nuclear power stations scattered throughout the country, is it not far better to concentrate the reprocessing industry in highly developed technological countries, to prevent the kind of scenario he is describing?
  Mr. Cook: I entirely accept that there is a case for regional reprocessing plants. If we were developing Windscale for a European regional reprocessing plant I would be prepared to think again on that question, but that is a different business altogether from the development of a reprocessing plant partly for one's own domestic industry and partly on a purely commercial basis to take on all comers—for instance the contract with the Japanese which appears to suggest that plutonium is returnable in a form which is suitable for use in weapons.
  Two years ago I went to the German Embassy to express my concern over Germany's announced intention to sell a reprocessing plant to Brazil. I was received with great courtesy and treated with great sincerity by the staff. I asked one of the diplomats who was involved in the contract what was the point in selling Brazil a reprocessing plant when, after all, the economics of reprocessing were doubtful. He accepted that the economics of reprocessing plants were very dubious, but said that the Brazilians saw Western European nations developing reprocessing plants and, therefore, refused to believe that they were uneconomic and wanted one of their own to prove it for themselves. That is an understandable reaction. If we are to say
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  that a reprocessing plant is essential to running a nuclear energy industry many other nations will say the same and will try to follow us. That is one reason why we must pause and carefully consider the matter before taking such a step.
  Quite apart from the arguments of environmental standards and radiation protection, and quite apart from the arguments about nuclear proliferation, there are strong grounds for doubt about the economics of reprocessing plants. After all, it all depends on the commercial value of the plutonium at the end of the reprocessing. Plutonium will only have a significant commercial value if it is used as fuel in a programme of fast breeder reactors.
  Here we come to the root of my reservations about the proposed development. In two decades we have put a large amount of investment into our nuclear industry. At one point it was suggested that AGR did not burn uranium oxide but paper money. At the end of two decades, after substantial investment, with a large ongoing programme, we have reached a point where it is difficult to put it into reverse. The logic of that process is the continual expansion of the nuclear energy programme. We are reaching the point where the Concorde syndrome is in danger of setting in. Perhaps it has already set in.
  I was struck by a speech of the managing director of BNFL, Coningsby Allday, last month when he said:
  "Unless we use plutonium as a fuel in fast reactors the vast amounts of money which have been spent in developing nuclear energy will have been largely wasted. … I believe that having spent so much and having got so far down the road, now is not the time at which to turn fainthearted."
  In other words, having spent so much already, we have to build a fast breeder reactor and a reprocessing plant in order to capitalise on what we have already invested. If that is the view he was taking last month, how much more will it be his view tomorrow, after we have voted to increase the Government's lending capital to his company sevenfold? How much more will it be his view 10 years from now when he has spent the money, has built the plant, and will require a fast breeder reactor in order to sell the plutonium and make economic sense of the reprocessing plant?
  Mr. Peter Rost: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to misrepresent his case. Does not he agree that the real reason for wishing to proceed with the reprocessing plant is not the investment already made in fast breeder reactor technology but the probable shortage of fuel? If we are to have any nuclear power at all the next generation must be fast breeder.
  Mr. Cook: The forecasting of uranium and thorium resources is complex, and I do not want, in the sixteenth minute of my speech, to get involved in it, but if one accepts the Atomic Energy Authority's programme of a twenty-fold increase in nuclear power generation, and that that is the only way to meet energy demand, I would accept that the corollary is that one will have severe difficulty in obtaining one's fuel, and that the logic may be to build fast breeder reactors to maximise its use. But I do not accept that the only course open to the nation in order to maintain electricity supply is the scenario of the AEA of a twenty-fold increase in nuclear power generation. I think that there are other ways in which we could meet that energy demand.
  There is an obverse side to the coin. We here are all conscious that public expenditure is finite. We would differ as to where to draw the line—there are differences between the two sides of the House and, perhaps, between the Government and me on the matter—but we all accept that public expenditure is finite. The resources that we put into the nuclear industry and are providing in this Bill are, perhaps, best judged in terms of where we are not going to be able to put those resources, having spent them on the nuclear industry. In the case of the Department of Energy, that must mean that the resources we put into nuclear energy will not be available to alternative forms of energy production.
  It is a considerable irony that we are debating the Bill on the day when the newspapers carry reports that scientists in Australia have succeeded in a break-through to solar energy, having developed a process whereby they can produce sufficient energy from solar energy to bring water to boiling point. I do not know whether the scientists who achieved this
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  feat eat brown bread and wear sandals, or whether they are right, but, if they have genuinely achieved such a breakthrough, I suspect that their innovation will have greater repercussions for employment and exports for their country than anything we are able to achieve for ourselves through an oxide reprocessing plant.
  It may well be that, given the nature of our climate and country, it would have been unrealistic to have expected us to make a breakthrough in solar energy, but I do not believe that we are incapable of harnessing the resources of the waves and tides around our comparatively small island, with our considerable maritime and offshore technological expertise. We can do it if we are prepared to put resources into such projects, rather than spend 80 times as much on research into nuclear energy as we do on all alternative forms of energy combined.
  In a speech two months ago Sir Brian Flowers pointed out that we have a considerable period between now and 1990 when, at the earliest, an energy gap is going to appear. He rightly went on to say that that period must not be an excuse for delay but a period in which we develop alternative options. My fear is that, by diverting so much of our resources, as we are doing by this Bill, into the single nuclear industry option, we are sealing off the other options and committing ourselves irrevocably to the road towards nuclear dependency, which is precisely the option about which the Royal Commission expressed so many disquieting and disturbing fears.
  6.45 p.m.
  Mr. David Penhaligon: I start with two asides, one of them about something that annoys me no end. I made an effort not long ago in an Adjournment debate on the Windscale inquiry to outline a number of very technical questions. The Minister in that debate, who was from the Department of the Environment, replied that he was not technically responsible for answering them. Today we have with us a Minister from the Department of Energy who, when asked a number of environmental questions, replies that he is not technically responsible for answering them. I recognise that both are right, because that is the way their various responsibilities lie,

  1297
  but it is a nonsense in a matter in which environment and technology are so closely intertwined that it is, in my view, impossible to unravel them. I should like the Prime Minister to make a Minister responsible for both aspects.
  Secondly, the Minister's speech was somewhat difficult to follow. He spent most of his time outlining good reasons why he was against the Bill, but at the end he said that all the arguments against the Bill had been thoroughly investigated and dismissed. That was the end of his references to them. He outlined six categories about which, he said, there was great public concern. At one time or another I shall mention most of them in my few words. I think that there is some possibility that the Liberals tonight will vote against the Bill. However, we seek first a number of assurances or specific answers which may well stop us from doing so.
  Comment has been made about the change in attitude towards nuclear energy since 1945. It is hardly surprising. For 30 years, in one form or another we have been trying to solve this problem and we have not done so. The world has spent enormous sums of money on the great growth of the peaceful uses of energy, but a clean and environmentally safe form of energy has not been achieved. I am not prepared to say that it never will be achieved, so I do not join those who say "Let us give it up as a bad job". With some assurance and care, I think that we can carry on along this path, but we are naģve if we believe that we are near the end of it, and even more naive if we believe that getting to the end of it is going to be cheap.
  I should like reassurance that in no circumstances within the United Kingdom will plutonium in a form suitable for making a guerrilla bomb or a homemade bomb be transported. I am assured by people who are technically more competent than I that there is no actual proposal to use plutonium as such in any form of reactor, and that it will be mixed up with various oxides. Therefore, why cannot we insist, if we have to cart this stuff around, that the oxides are mixed up with the plutonium at the processing plant? This would at least make it virtually impossible for terrorist
  1298
  organisations to separate the two, although we are being naive if we do not recognise that virtually any country could separate the two materials. But such a step would at least make it impossible for a terrorist organisation to do so.
  I also want an assurance that no further overseas material will be accepted in this country till the reprocessing plant is proved to work, that the glassification process is proved to work, and that a safe disposal place is found for the material when these two objectives are achieved. We hardly appear to need some of the material here for research purposes. We heard even today of the ponds overflowing with stuff we do not know what to do with. If this is the technological problem, if this is the area in which we have not got a solution, then I suggest that each country that wishes to use nuclear power should be responsible for looking after its own rubbish.
  These are basically the assurances we seek, but I want to outline a number of other concerns to which the Liberals are increasingly applying their minds. We have some doubt about the nuclear future, but it is the plutonium future which concerns us most. As I understand it, if we are to have fast breeder reactors, we have to have plutonium: that is the end of the conversation; there are no "ifs" or "buts".
  It has been said that if one uses fusion instead of fission, there is a possibility of not using plutonium.
  Mr. Skeet: In a Magnox reactor plutonium is produced and in a fast breeder reactor it is used. If it is kept in stocks from the Magnox, it can be stolen, but no thief will go into the central core of an FBR to retrieve it.
  Mr. Penhaligon: That sounds simple, but as I understand it it has to be reprocessed to make it suitable for the fast breeder reactor.
  Some people fear that as this material is transported from one station to another —presumably they will not be on the same site—there is substantial danger; that that is when it is most likely to be stolen.
  The House will not need to be warned that there are basically two problems—handling the material in preparation for

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  use and the disposal and handling of waste. We are not desperately happy about the first, but today I will stick to the second.
  As I understand it, the proposal is that we should construct a unit capable of commercially reprocessing nuclear fuel and separating the plutonium, that the plutonium will be returned to its place of origin and that the waste left over will be glassified into blocks which will be disposed of either underground—in granite, clay or salt—or under the sea.
  I have some doubts about that scenario, but let us go through the details. The waste material is said to be safe in the ponds which now exist. It is only fair to point out exactly what that means. I understand that those ponds are guarded and the temperature of the waste monitored night and day and that if the waste stays there it will be there for a long time before anyone would dare handle it. Estimates range from 500 to 500,000 years. It makes little difference which is correct in terms of the responsibility of this Parliament.
  If nuclear energy is to become our main source of electrical production and the waste problem is not solved it is possible that the ponds could increase in size and number throughout the country. Someone has called them potential pools of death. Even if we were prepared to store our own rubbish, I am certainly not prepared to vote for this country storing other people's rubbish. How much of the rubbish which is now in this country comes from elsewhere? How much is currently coming in, and does the Minister intend to stop it?
  The argument has been advanced with some enthusiasm—I think by the hon. Member for Leicester, South (Mr. Marshall)—that it is better for good old stable Britain to do it.
  Mr. Jim Marshall: I do not think that I mentioned any particular country. My point was that, if there is to be reprocessing, in the interests of non-proliferation of nuclear bombs it is best that it should be done in countries that have the high-class technology to do it.
  Mr. Penhaligon: It would certainly be difficult to do the reprocessing in a country without the technology to do it. I accept the hon. Member's correction, but
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  some people have argued that the reprocessing should be done in Britain because of our political stability. At this moment I would remind those who argue in that way that there is a strike at the company where the reprocessing will be done, involving about 4,000 people. A couple of weeks ago, there were bombs in the main street of this country's capital. We also have the never-ending problem of Northern Ireland, which this House decides not to talk about in the hope that the problem will eventually go away. We are at the moment discussing devolution to Scotland and Wales and we have many race problems. Who can possibly say what will happen in this country in the next 250 years? It is naive and just not acceptable to think up a scheme which commits us to 200 to 400 years of storage.
  Mr. Palmer: Is not the hon. Gentleman's argument a curious one for a Liberal? I understood that Liberals were free traders and internationalists, certainly not economic nationalists. Surely nuclear processing is an interdependent world concern?
  Mr. Penhaligon: There is some truth in that. I intend later to outline what I believe is the solution, and why I believe that the European connection is the avenue through which the world, or at least the European, problem will be solved.
  If reprocessing works we shall be landed with plutonium. I cannot accept the argument that no terrorist will go for the plutonium because of personal danger. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that personal danger does not influence such people. I have read papers from various American sources which say that the aspect which concerns them most is the possibility of proliferation not of the most technical bombs but of a rather crude affair which could do substantial damage.
  Let us assume that the separation and glassification process works. The next part of the scenario is finding a dump. The Western Isles and Cornwall seem to be two of the most favoured places for this. I should have thought that the clay deposits in London would have been worth investigation, but it is the aforementioned two places which have been and are being investigated.

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  With my hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) I recently met some officials from the Department of Energy, to discuss the Cornwall aspect, but the opportunity was taken to explore the general level of technology available for this solution. I was somewhat disturbed. It appears that at this moment, in collaboration with the Camborne School of Mines, a series of tests has been embarked upon. They consist essentially of using holes which the school happens to have handy—Cornwall is full of holes, and it is not difficult to find a handy one —and putting into them packages such as it is visualised will be used for storing the glassified material.
  Instead of being filled with nuclear material the canisters will be filled with electrical heating elements. The object of the test is to discover how heat is dissipated in granite. I was staggered by this, since I should have thought that the answer to that problem was already known, but I am assured that it is not. I was similarly staggered that the tests should be done in Cornwall since Cornwall is being dismissed as a possible long-term store because our rock has a great deal of water in it. However, apparently it is suitable for tests to check heat dissipation characteristics. Will not the same water affect those characteristics?
  I do not say this just because I am from Cornwall, but it seems to me that at the present level of technology available for solving this problem the "separate and dump" answer is the wrong one. Other conversations that I have had suggest that if we had a choice we would not put this material down a hole but would put it on the bottom of the sea. Given a choice, I suspect that the average Cornishman, and indeed anyone else, would vote for that option. However, we have recently signed international agreements banning that sort of solution. I do not know whether we can unsign them so far as they relate to the disposal of one of the most toxic materials known to man, but we have signed agreements saying that the sea will not be used for the disposal of these materials. Yet it looks like the most likely and attractive disposal place. I should be interested to know how the Minister expects to handle that matter.
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  There have been several references today to what, I believe, is the biggest scandal of all—namely, the disparity between the amount of money spent on nuclear energy as a possible answer to our energy problems and the amount spent on other possible solutions. I am pleased that this has now become a general cry from hon. Members on both sides of the House. The hon. Members for Bridgwater (Mr. King), Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook) and Bristol, North-East referred to the enormous disparity in financial provision for nuclear energy and alternative sources of energy. Those of us who believe that there might be alternatives to nuclear energy want to see a substantial increase in the amount of money devoted to alternative solutions. It would do our confidence good if we thought that the Government were taking seriously the question of alternative sources of energy.
  A further point is the financial consequence of the Bill. I asked two questions today to try to unravel this serious question. I understand that at one time the banks offered £100 million towards solving this problem and that the Japanese offered about £200 million, and I have heard rumours of other offering the odd million here and there. The Bill seems to give an open guarantee to various people that, if the research takes place but fails—not that the inquiry would not allow it to take place—and we are unable to carry out the contracts, we shall return every single last farthing of this money to the people involved. I am sure that is the agreement with the banks, but I am not sure whether it is the agreement with the Japanese. Presumably one could under these circumstances arrange to borrow money to build a papier mache bridge from Cornwall to New York, because the person lending the money would be taking no risk at all. He would be lending money for a lunatic scheme in the certain knowledge that, if it did not work, the Government would pay back every penny.
  It seems that Britain is on the verge of taking on both the financial and physical problems of the world. To try to solve the nuclear waste disposal problems of the world seems an unreasonable burden to take on merely in the hope that,

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  at the end of the day, there might be some money in it.
  Reference has been made to projects that have lost money. I think that I probably read the same paper as the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central because I have the same figures as he has. These are colossal figures for companies which have got involved in the supply of materials for the treatment of nuclear waste. Getty Nuclear Fuel Servicing has been shut down, and it is trying to get out of a contract which could severely embarrass even that financial empire. I did not know that financial contracts were signed at that level.
  I understand that many people in Government departments in Europe believe that the whole idea of recycling plutonium may not be the answer at all, and that it might be cheaper to find more sites where we can dig up the basic material and dispose of it immediately after it is used.
  What worries me is that, if we are not careful, the argument that the Japanese will go to France instead may well be being used by the Japanese in France. The Japanese may be telling the French that they are doing well because they are getting ahead of Britain. I believe in competition and free enterprise, but I am not enthralled by the possibility of one country competing with another to be the first to achieve success in this particular programme, with all the risks involved.
  I was one of those who compaigned enthusiastically to join the Common Market. I sometimes wonder whether I am now as enthusiastic as I was. If the Common Market, direct elections to Europe, and the whole paraphernalia of the Federal State of Europe is to mean anything, Europe must take such problems on board. It is nonsense for one country in Europe to take risks in competition with others to find a solution to this problem.
  I shall not promise opposition to the Bill. I shall listen carefully to the Minister's reply. To a certain extent, one is loth to end a period of general agreement in this House, and anyway we do not oppose every proposal in this Bill. However, the Liberal Party is tonight precious near to breaking that agreement. If the Minister can assure
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  me on the points that I have raised we shall be able to continue the present concord.
  7.5 p.m.
  Mr. Frank Hanley: I should like to begin by quoting from paragraph 512 of the Flowers Report—the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution:
  "The basic belief of the Department of Energy and the AEA is that nuclear fission using the fast breeder reactor is the only real option for meeting our future energy needs. We tear that on this premise there may be a gradual step by step progression to overriding dependence on nuclear power through tacit acceptance of its inevitability, and a gradual foreclosing of other options that might have been available had they been exercised in time."
  That sums up very well the objections to this untimely Bill, which is part of the step by step progression to the use of the fast-breeder reactor about which I and other people have very serious reservations.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State somewhat whimsically said that the Bill authorises expenditure of only £1,000 million. Opposition Members questioned that figure, but I think that it is perfectly clear from the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum that that is the sum of money involved. It states:
  "Clause 2 sets new limits on the capital payments … in the case of BNFL these are &pound;300 million (which may be increased by order"—
  which involves the very minimum or surveillance by the House—
  "up to £500 million) … A separate limit of £400 million (which may be increased by order up to £500 million) is imposed on the aggregate of guarantees given in relation to advance payments made by customers of BNFL."
  We have a potential commitment of public expenditure of £1,000 million. It will not do for the Government and hon. Members to say that it is only a guarantee and that the expenditure may never occur. It is clearly important to the Japanese and to BNFL. If they regard it as an important part of the contract, we must take it seriously as part of the financial commitment of the Bill.
  What is the purpose of this enormous sum of money? It is clearly to establish the possibility of the reprocessing of the oxide fuel for the production of uranium for the fast breeder. As my right hon.

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  Friend the Secretary of State has explained, there are three elements to the Bill. There is the question of the Magnox fuel and the vitrification process. My right hon. Friend said that dealing with the Magnox fuel would cost £245 million and the vitrification £40 million, which makes a total of £285 million against a total provision in the Bill of £1,000 million.
  It is clear that the Department of Energy and the BNFL believe that the crucial feature of the Bill is the provision of money for the reprocessing of the oxide fuel, and for accepting the overseas contracts to do just that. Why is this so important? Some hon. Members have suggested that nuclear power is the answer to all our power problems and that we cannot rely on oil, gas or coal. It is argued that we therefore have to go for the nuclear option. What is meant is that there are serious disputes and differences of opinion about the availability of uranium world wide. It is argued that even if we did decide to get the uranium only 1 per cent. of its capacity could be usefully used in nuclear reactors unless we go for the fast breeder reactor, in which case 60 times the effective power contained in uranium could be made use of. That is really the substance and the nub of the Bill.
  Notwithstanding the caveats of my right hon. Friend about the planning application—I entirely accept his good faith on this issue—we must regard the Bill as paving the way for the fast breeder reactor as our future nuclear system. Otherwise, the sums of money involved do not make sense. We do not require anything approaching £1,000 million to deal with the Magnox fuel problem and the experimental vitrification.
  I would quote again from paragraph 521 of the Royal Commission Report. It states:
  "We regard the future implications of a plutonium economy"—
  obviously that is the fast breeder reactor—
  "as so serious that we would not wish to become committed to this course unless it is clear that the issues have been fully appreciated and weighed. … We are perfectly clear that there has so far been very little official consideration of these matters."
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  Admittedly, that was a report published last September arising from considerations over perhaps 12 or 18 months. It may well be that the Department of Energy, BNFL and others have given greater consideration to these matters since that time.
  But the fact is that the nuclear debate was brought to a head in this country—although it has been going on for some time elsewhere—by two issues: first, the publication of the Royal Commission Report itself in September last year; secondly, the planning application for the extension at Windscale to deal with the oxide fuel reprocessing and particularly the Japanese contract, which caused a great deal of public concern.
  I am advised that next year there will be enough capacity at Windscale for dealing with the domestic requirements of oxide fuel reprocessing. If that is true, it means that the argument about having to have this capacity anyway because of the AGRs falls to the ground. What we are being asked to do in the Bill is to provide equipment and funds mainly for the overseas contracts, particularly the Japanese contract, and that it would be perfectly feasible for BNFL to go ahead and deal with its own oxide fuel from the AGRs without the provisions of the Bill at all.
  The Minister should answer that point and say whether it is correct. Whether it is or not, there remains the point that it is not essential to reprocess this fuel at all. In fact, President Ford, in announcing his moratorium on reprocessing in the United States, stated quite clearly—presumably on high-powered advice—that the United States:
  "should no longer regard the reprocessing of nuclear fuel as a necessary and inevitable step.'
  It will not do to argue that if we want a a nuclear policy or nuclear stations we must have this oxide fuel reprocessing plant. It is not an essential part of the issue.
  Incidentally, uranium is the only source of power of which we have no indigenous supply. If we are to take account of uranium in the light of known world sources, then probably the reprocessing and the use of the fast breeder will become inevitable, and the Bill is part of that step.

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  The House and the public are therefore entitled to examine some of the hazards associated with the use of plutonium as a fuel for our power resources. The hazards of the plutonium economy were well enumerated by the Secretary of State. I was interested to note that the list of issues that I wanted to touch on coincided almost exactly with the six headings that my right hon. Friend gave as the problems we would have to solve if we were to move forward with the fast breeder reactor and the reprocessing of oxide fuel on any scale.
  These, of course, are the health of the workers involved, the waste disposal problem, the risk of accidents, security against terrorism and the international dangers of the proliferation of nuclear weapons. I accept that great care has been taken by BNFL and public authorities such as the National Radiation Protection Board to enforce and bring in health safeguards for those involved in working with this enormously dangerous substance. But the Royal Commission made some criticism of the present arrangement. It found it rather surprising that the NRPB played a peripheral and not a focal rôle in health. It criticised the NRPB specifically for not following up throughly enough the incidence of leukemia among plutonium workers at Windscale. It also criticised the fact that the NRPB did not appear to be as completely independent and separate from the AEA as it should be. The Royal Commission felt that it should not only be independent but clearly be seen to be independent.
  One or two tragic deaths of workers at Windscale have recently been reported in the Press. Whether these are to be regarded as particularly significant I do not know. I can only say that they have raised some disquiet and have led to actions in the courts for compensation from BNFL. There was the case of John Troughton who died in 1975 of a malignant disease of bone marrow. There was Harry King who died in 1973 and it was known that he had traces of plutonium of the brain. Both were plutonium process workers.
  There was the recently startling case of 22-year-old David Berry who died from a cancerous disease of the blood only two months after spending 12 or 14 months as a worker at Windscale. Yet he
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  was a perfectly healthy individual when he took up his post.
  I understand that BNFL is now carrying out a wide-ranging research into the medical records of 20,000 workers. As well as examining the medical records of people at the plant, BNFL, is also trying to follow up those who have left the plant. I am glad to hear this. I am less enthusiastic about the fact that it has taken BNFL over three years to make up its mind to undertake this far—reaching investigation into the health hazards of its workers.
  A rather disquieting report, which I gather has not been published, was made by two British medical workers at the Hanford plant in the United States concerning the incidence of cancer among workers there. They investigated the medical records of nearly 4,000 workers from 1944 to 1972, which showed a high incidence of cancer among people who worked at that plant. Therefore, I think that there are health hazards which we do not have completely under control, which perhaps we do not fully understand, and which require very thorough investigation by fully independent and high-powered bodies.
  In saying that, I do not criticise the provisions which have been made, and I I am not criticising BNFL. I am saying that there may exist hazards which we do not expect, which we could not foresee, the nature of which was not fully known, and which only now are we making more detailed and thoroughgoing investigations to establish.
  I am well aware of the argument that there are other industries—coal mining is often cited—where there are considerable dangers in respect of life and limb to the people working in them. But I do not think that that is a very good argument for adding to the hazards present in existing industries about which clearly we do not yet know enough.
  Then there is the major and in many ways the most frightening problem of the nuclear power industry. It concerns the disposal of nuclear waste. We have to acknowledge that this is a problem which is just not solved. At the moment we are simply storing these highly dangerous waste substances. We do not know how to dispose of them. The Bill provides for an experimental scheme for

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  vitrification, which may perhaps help in the disposal problem. But even then the chunks of radioactive glass material have to be disposed of somewhere.
  The Royal Commission said quite bluntly that the picture was disquieting and that there had been insufficient appreciation of the problem by Government and other organisations. But there is a very serious cleavage of opinion at the moment among scientists and engineers about whether these wastes should be kept accessible under surveillance where they can be guarded, watched, monitored and checked, or whether we should try in some way to dispose of them under the ocean bed, in geological strata or salt domes where they will not cause future trouble. There is no sign of a consensus on this.
  I attended a symposium in London a couple of months ago where there was vigorous argument amongst the most highly qualified scientists in the country. Some geologists were dubious about whether it was wise to bury these wastes in whatever form deep down in geological strata. Some took the view that for the foreseeable future we must simply keep these wastes where we could monitor, watch and check what was happening to them. But the ugly fact is that these wastes will be highly dangerous, poisonous substances for thousands of years. I believe that the half-life of plutonium is 24,000 years, and there are other substances which may be even worse than that.
  It is obvious that at the moment we are nowhere in reach of producing a solution to this extremely difficult problem. Until we are in reach of it or have made serious progress towards it, it casts a serious shadow over the future of nuclear energy, whether we stick to thermal reactors or go for the fast breeder.
  Reference has been made to the recommendation of the Royal Commission that we in this country should have a nuclear waste disposal corporation. There is considerable force in that. The Commission drew attention to the dispersal of responsibility for nuclear waste. There may be a case for drawing responsibility together under a highly expert central body.
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  There is the problem of pollution off the coast at Windscale. According to the NRPB, the plutonium deposit is building up steadily year by year in the sediment off the coast. It does not disappear. It simply builds up. At the moment it is held to be at a safe level. I hope that that is so. But it is being poured out from Windscale, and it is steadily accumulating. We do not know what will happen in that part of the sea over the next decade or two.
  The third point concerns the possibility of accidents. Once again I accept that the British nuclear industry has a very good record. We had a serious accident at Windscale in 1973, which led to the discharge of radioactive gas and to a considerable amount of contamination in Cumberland. But to the best of my knowledge that is the most serious accident to have occurred in this country over the past three decades during the development of nuclear power.
  However, I do not think that we can be confident that we shall avoid all possibility of accidents if we continue building station after station and if we are to become heavily dependent not on 14 or 20 nuclear power stations but on some 40 or 50. Clearly, the list of accidents will build up. What is more, if we go for plutonium as a fuel, transporting it from reprocessing plant to reactors creates additional hazards of its own. We have seen what can happen in the very tragic disaster which occurred at a chemical plant in Northern Italy. In our own country we had the equally tragic disaster at Flixborough. But we have to acknowledge what might be the consequences of a similar kind of accident if it involved this very dangerous radioactive substance. We should not shut our eyes to these possibilities however much we admire the security and the efforts made so far to avoid them.
  Then there is the possibility of nuclear terrorism. The Royal Commission says categorically:
  "The construction of a crude nuclear weapon by an illicit group is credible … The Government underrates this danger."
  In case hon. Members conclude that I am resting my arguments too heavily on the report of the Royal Commission, though it is a very important document, perhaps I may also remind them of the report of

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  the Fox Commission in Australia, which went into this matter with care. In part of its report, it says:
  "The evidence points strongly to the conclusion that very destructive nuclear explosive devices can be made from reactor grade plutonium produced in power reactors operated normally. The physical data needed to make such devices, with uncertain explosive yields but probably in the range of hundreds of thousands of tonnes equivalent of TNT, are available in the open literature. Construction of a nuclear explosive device is not of such complexity as to be beyond the apparent resources of existing terrorist organisations. Production of a device to disperse plutonium oxide in the atmosphere would be comparatively simple. The evidence indicates that undetected theft of small quantities of plutonium from reprocessing plants would probably be feasible, especially for trained organisations in countries with large nuclear industries … There is a very real risk that the opportunity and motive for nuclear blackmail will develop with time."
  So we have there a suggestion from another very high-powered Commission in different circumstances and in a different country which backs up the contention of the Flowers Report that nuclear terrorism is a possibility with which we have to contend. Only a short while ago this House took a lot of time to pass special legislation, the Atomic Energy Authority (Special Constables) Act, designed specifically to provide special safeguards for nuclear installations and to counter exactly that possibility.
  Then there is the very complex and hotly disputed argument about the proliferation of nuclear weapons. I do not want to go into the details of that. The argument has ranged over 30 years and all kinds of opinions have been expressed about it. But it is only fair to draw attention to the fact that there is currently a major diplomatic row between Canada and Pakistan about reprocessing plant.
  Strong pressure is being brought to bear by the United States on France in respect of its proposal to supply Pakistan with a reprocessing plant. The United States is also bringing pressure to bear on Germany in respect of its Brazilian contract. We already know that the Americans appear to take a rather uncertain or ambiguous view of whether it would be proper for Japan to send its fuel to this country for processing.
  If we are seriously considering progressing towards a nuclear power economy, we cannot rule out the inter-
  1312
  national consequences of the production and use of plutonium on any considerable scale. There is a school of thought—I am afraid that it is not absent from the House—that regards those who criticise, oppose or express reservations about nuclear power as middle-class cranks who want to return to wood fires and spinning wheels and who have no regard to our industrial economy.
  That is not so. The objections that have been raised and the problems that are being discussed by serious people on the issue of nuclear power and a progression towards a greater reliance upon it are also reflected in other countries. In Sweden the new Government have recently introduced tough proposals for the reprocessing of nuclear fuel and the disposal of nuclear waste. In West Germany the Government of North Rhine Westphalia, the largest industrial component of the Federal German Republic, stated categorically that there will be no nuclear stations until the waste disposal problems have been solved.
  Reference has already been made to the statement by President Ford prior to the American election on the non-necessity of reprocessing nuclear fuel. It is generally accepted that President Carter takes an even stronger view about the dangers of nuclear power than his predecessors.
  At the same time as countries as sophisticated as Sweden, Germany and the United States are expressing doubts, the House is being asked to authorise the Secretary of State to spend up to £1,000 million on plant that is designed to extend and continue the nuclear power policy. I suggest that that would be unwise.
  7.33 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Rost: I could not help getting the impression from the remarks of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley) that he is not very happy about the Bill. The hon. Gentleman and I both serve on the Select Committee that for some years has been investigating various energy matters. It is presently considering the longer-term options that are open to us. I am in sympathy with the approach that the hon. Gentleman takes to nuclear power and environmental factors but I cannot agree with his conclusions.

  1313
  I do not wish to enrol in the sandals and brown bread brigade, although I must admit that I have joined its ranks on the odd occasion. I have been accused of stirring up anti-nuclear or nuclear scaremongering stories. I believe that they have been unfair accusations. I have merely expressed the anxiety that seems to be coming from a wide area of the House about the longer-term uncertainties.
  Although I have expressed anxieties and although I believe it to be one of my duties to remain vigilant in this respect, I am very much in support of the Bill. British Nuclear Fuels Ltd. is doing a first-class job. I wish that every nationalised industry produced 13 per cent. profit on its capital employed. I have confidence that any contracts that it undertakes both at home and abroad will be undertaken efficiently, safely and profitably.
  Having said that, it is only right for me to continue by confirming that in the past in the House I have taken a fairly vigorous line in criticising the Government over various aspects of their policy, or lack of it. In particular, I have criticised the Government for not having taken seriously the possibilities of alternative energy sources. I have criticised them for not having allocated sufficient priority to research and development towards ascertaining the potentials and how they can be developed. I have criticised the Government for not having taken energy conservation more seriously and for not giving higher priority to cost-effective investment producing a more rational use of energy.
  Indeed, I have criticised the Government for not having anticipated the sort of report that came from Sir Brian Flowers. They have failed to prepare public opinion adequately, and instead of taking the public along with them they have tried to conceal the real anxieties. If there had been a more open approach to the various unresolved questions concerning the future of nuclear power, we should not suddenly be faced with something of an environmental reaction that could be counter productive to the country's long-term interests.
  Having expressed those criticisms, I support this measure wholeheartedlv. It is
  1314
  essential that we keep our nuclear options open. Although I have sympathy with some colleagues on both sides of the House who would prefer to see more emphasis on other energy solutions, such as renewable sources and, tidal, solar and wave power and, as we hope, eventually fusion power, and a greater emphasis on a more rational use of energy in other ways, and although I should like to see greater priorities and solutions in those areas, I accept that we are not at a stage where we should take the risk that solutions will come From those sources.
  Until we are certain of that, and until we have done the work that will confirm that there are adequate and special alternatives to nuclear power, we must keep the nuclear option open. We must maintain a viable nuclear industry, and all the support that is necessary to do that must be secured. That includes the processing of nuclear fuel and the safe disposal of waste. It is for that reason that I support the Bill.
  I am concerned about the attitude that seemed to be taken by the Secretary of State in his opening remarks in supporting this measure in a slightly lukewarm way. I detected a strong tone that he would like to keep the ball rolling on all the nuclear decisions that have to be taken, that he would like to keep his options open and to defer decisions over a whole range of energy strategy. I felt that he was using the present planning inquiry at Windscale as vet a further excuse for not taking any decisions. If I am right in those suspicions I hope that they will be denied by the Minister when he replies to the debate.
  In the last two or three years there have been more decisions on energy deferred by this Government than decisions taken. I have in mind a whole list of problems that must be in the Secretary of State's "In" tray, and I cannot think of one problem that has gone into his "Out" tray. I accept that the right hon. Gentleman has made a helpful contribution in widening the debate on energy problems, but that must not be used as an excuse for not taking decisions. We have a national energy conference, energy debates on our nuclear future, and deferred decisions on a whole range of nuclear matters—to the point when the industry is almost in a state

  1315
  of collapse. We have had deferred decisions on the crucial electricity industry, whose reorganisation has been recommended by the Plowden Committee, but we have still had no indication of what the Government intend to do on that score.
  We have now had the report of the "think tank"—the CPRS—on the heavy plant industry, and again we have had no reaction from the Government. We have had two years of deferred decision-taking on crucial matters touching energy conservation strategy, and there has not even been proper debate on the Select Committee's recommendations. Endless committees have deliberated on these matters and have given their advice in countless reports. The Government's chief scientist headed a committee into the possibilities of combined heat and power facilities, but again nothing happened. The Minister is almost encouraging the talking shop as an excuse for procrastination. We are waiting for an outline of the Secretary of State's energy strategy and how he sees the nuclear industry fitting into it.
  In the meantime we are promised some kind of energy board. That is fair enough if it is to be an organisation that will help to shape strategy, but if it is to be another talking shop, I do not think that it will get us very much further.
  In view of all these deferred decisions, we now have the prospect of a public inquiry at Windscale. I see that the Secretary of State is paying keen attention to my constructive criticisms and I hope that that inquiry will not be used as an excuse to defer for a period of two or three years essential decisions that must be taken if we are to proceed safely to produce fuel and to process the waste. Public inquiries and talking shops are no substitute for decision-taking. They do not allow Ministers the luxury of sheltering behind indecision or avoiding conclusions on the longer-term energy strategy.
  I wholeheartedly support the Bill because it will allow us to keep our nuclear options open. I suspect that the Secretary of State supports this measure because he knows that our existing power stations will close unless they are improved and unless extended facilities are provided to reprocess the fuel. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman
  1316
  would prefer to procrastinate on those issues, but he must know that he has not that amount of time. Therefore, if only reluctantly, he has to support this Bill.
  If I am wrong in that assessment, perhaps the Minister can make the situation clear when he replies to the debate. Perhaps he will be able to say that the Government heartily support the operations of BFNL in what must be an essential step towards keeping our nuclear options open in a safe manner, provided that we safeguard our environmental security as an essential back-up to the nuclear power industry.
  7.46 p.m.
  Mr. Jim Marshall: I apologise for being absent during the opening speeches in this debate. That arose from no fear of the content of those speeches, but from the fact that I had a previous engagement which I could not cancel in time.
  I welcome the Bill because, for the first time in many years, it shows some Government confidence, albeit lukewarm, in the nuclear industry. In my opinion the nuclear industry is under attack and the argument over the reprocessing programme is the tip of the iceberg. If we prevent the reprocessing facility from going ahead, we shall, as a matter of logic, kill the nuclear industry in this country. We must realise that Magnox fuel cladding erodes within a year and therefore has to be reprocessed within that period. I realise that oxide fuels can be kept for much longer periods, but there comes a time when ultimately the decision to reprocess that fuel must be taken. One cannot go on indefinitely collecting spent fuels because of the environmental danger.
  Most hon. Members have quoted the Flowers Report by endeavouring to pull out of it those items that support their own point of view, but that report made clear that the reprocessing facility is an integral part of the nuclear industry and that once one cuts that cycle at the reprocessing point, the nuclear industry will collapse. I emphasise that the nuclear industry is under attack from certain quarters. I do not wish to implicate my right hon. Friend in that statement, except to say that to a great extent I agree with what was said by the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Rost), who drew attention to

  1317
  the prevarication on certain nuclear matters which may have hindered the nuclear industry. That is the only degree to which I implicate my right hon. Friend.
  Without doubt the nuclear industry is under attack. We have had quoted tonight the leakage at Windscale and other minor damage there as well. Here again the situation is highlighted and unfairly dramatised by my right hon. Friend's decision to have every little incident reported to him personally. It is like asking the Chairman of the National Coal Board to report to my right hon. Friend every time a miner loses his thumb down the pits. That kind of situation cannot continue because it over-dramatises incidents. A great service would be done to BNFL if the need to report directly to the Secretary of State every time some minor incident occurred was removed.
  Mr. Nigel Forman: Has it occurred to the hon. Member that if a requirement is made to ensure that such incidents are reported openly, honestly and frequently as a matter of course, this will, in many ways, ensure that public anxiety will be reduced and not increased? In this case I support the Secretary of State.
  Mr. Marshall: I totally disagree. The implication behind what the hon. Member has said is that BNFL has something to hide. My right hon. Friend is on record as saying that BNFL has carried out its legal responsibilities and obligations in every law pertaining to the safety of the nuclear industry in this country. Therefore, it gives the wrong impression to imply that BNFL is trying to hide something. Certainly that is not so. The need to report every little incident tends to over-dramatise the situation. I would be foolish to deny that there are dangers—
  Mr. Tom King: Personally, I support the hon. Member's view. It is the immediate reporting of incidents which highlights the point he makes. The need for the Secretary of State and the public to know immediately whenever a small incident has taken place is what causes the concern. The objectives of the Secretary of State could be met by regular reporting and full publication, without
  1318
  this added need of urgent and immediate reporting of every single incident.
  Mr. Benn: I have now instituted a system for fulfilling what the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) has suggested—namely, normal reporting. I share the view that much anxiety is derived from the fact that incidents of a minor character in nuclear establishments have been kept quiet. This practice is not helpful to the nuclear industry. In fact, the industry has a record second to none in terms of incidents such as gas explosions. Yet public feeling is more sensitive to this industry because people tend to feel—and I agree that it is not satisfactory—that it is wrong to learn by a roundabout route later on of an incident which occurred in a plant which was under discussion at the time. The time will come when the industry will thank me for normalising its reporting of incidents rather than leaving it in a special category of secrecy.
  Mr. Marshall: I thank my right hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King). When I rose seven minutes ago, I resolved that my speech should be very brief, and now that the big battalions on both sides have entered the debate during my contribution, and while I am very grateful, it is still my intention to be brief.
  There are dangers in the nuclear industry, but one must accept that there are dangers in any industry in which one battles against the elements. In the coal industry, for example, when a miner goes down a pit to extract coal from the bowels of the earth he is confronted with danger, and in some cases may even lose his life. The trawlermen who battle against the elements of sea and wind face danger. Similarly—and the analogy is apt—when one battles against chemical elements one also faces dangers. But one attempts to minimise those dangers, and this has been done to a considerable degree in this country.
  In this respect the record of the nuclear industry, among the fuel industries, is second to none, and we should be proud of it. It is a shining example to the rest of the world of what British technology can do when allied with good sense. I hope that this process will continue. We have a nuclear industry, and we want it to continue and flourish.

  1319
  However, the attack on the industry has been helped by the lack of an energy policy. The oil price increase in 1973–74 concentrated the mind beautifully for about six months, and there were some beneficial consequences flowing from it. One of these was the conservation policy, and another was the plan for coal, which I welcome nearly as much as this Bill. These were two good things that came from the oil crisis.
  But, despite his well-publicised national energy conference last year, and his recently publicised proposed energy committee, the Secretary of State still has no coherent energy policy in terms of demand for energy over the next 20 to 25 years. How can we determine a coherent policy for supplying that demand when we have no policy for ascertaining the demand? Despite the environmental lobbies, which want to see energy requirements reduced in absolute terms, which means a reduction in the standard of living of everyone in the developed world, all Governments will wish to continue increasing their peoples' standard of living. This implies an increase in GDP, which in turn necessitates an increase in absolute energy requirements.
  The recent OECD Report "World Energy Output" pointed out that between 1960 and 1974 energy consumption and economic growth went almost hand in hand. They were practically in a 1:1 relationship. That has since been revised slightly, in view of the oil crisis and conservation policies. Even so, it is now predicted that in future the relationship between energy consumption and growth will be on a 0·84:1 basis. If one is looking forward to a period of continued growth, which most people want to see, one must look to increasing energy resources. In my view, and that of my right hon. Friend, coal will continue to play a big part, and perhaps a bigger part than hitherto. In spite of the platitudinous remarks about the so-called benign sources of energy, I believe that they will make no significant contribution to the country's energy requirements this century—in spite of the so-called breakthrough reported today. So, we shall be reliant on coal, and, to a degree, though a decreasing degree, on oil, and we shall therefore need a nuclear power industry.
  I should like to see an expansion of the nuclear power industry. On any
  1320
  realistic and honest assessment, the industry will continue to make a contribution to the energy requirements of this country within my lifetime and, I strongly suspect, within the lifetimes of my children and their children. Whether we like it or not, we have to look forward to nuclear power continuing to make a large contribution to our energy requirements. We must, therefore, accept the logic of that. Reprocessing facilities will continue to be required. Here I should like to quote that eminent physicist Professor Flowers, who, in the company of others, put together the report of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution.
  What Professor Flowers says to some degree refutes the assertion that the only need for a reprocessing facility is in order to produce plutonium. That is total nonsense, as is implicit in what Professor Flowers says. In paragraph 130 the report says
  "The extraction of plutonium still provides the main reason for reprocessing fuel: the element is valuable as a source of energy either in fast reactors or as a substitute for extra uranium-235 needed to enrich fuel in thermal reactors."
  There are other reasons. It would be possible to get enriched uranium from the reprocessed fuel, and this could be fed back into the normal thermal reactors. Professor Flowers indicates beyond any shadow of doubt that reprocessing is required and that it gives enriched uranium which can be used in the present generation of nuclear power stations. It also provides plutonium which might or might not be used in fast-breeder reactors but can certainly be used in the existing reactors to enrich the fuel.
  Mr. Hooley: Does my hon. Friend not accept that known world supplies of uranium would be inadequate to sustain a massive nuclear programme for every industrialised country in the world, much less the developing countries? Therefore, it is much more meaningful to go for the plutonium for the fast-breeder reactor so as effectively to use existing uranium stocks.
  Mr. Marshall: I accept that the plutonium could be used in fast-breeder reactors. I am in favour of the fast-breeder reactor, and I should like to see plutonium which is produced used in this way. But the argument this evening is not

  1321
  about the merits or demerits of the fast-breeder but about the need for BNFL to have more financial resources so that it can deal with the reprocessing required for the present generation of AGRs.
  The second point put forward by Professor Flowers is in paragraph 131, and it shows how the critics of the nuclear industry turn the arguments on their heads. Professor Flowers says, quite rightly.
  "Another reason for reprocessing irradiated nuclear fuel is the environmental one".
  One would never believe it from what has been said this evening, particularly in view of what was said by the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon), who is extremely worried about the dangers which might occur in Cornwall. One can think of one that has happened there already. Professor Flowers goes on to say.
  "it facilitates management of the radioactive wastes, which can be concentrated in a relatively small volume for more convenient storage."
  I ask the House therefore to accept the environmental need for the reprocessing cycle to continue.
  There has been discussion of the need to glassify or vitrify the nuclear wastes. I accept that BNFL is in the forefront of this technology, but I remind hon. Members, particularly those who have not read the Financial Times today, that there are other means of doing that. We are told by my right hon. Friend that the Swedes are reducing their nuclear power commitment, but today they announced that they have discovered a new method of consolidating and concentrating nuclear wastes, not in the form of glass but by a process analogous to the production of a diamond under high pressure. So developments are taking place throughout the world, and I am sure that the reprocessing will be an environmental advantage rather than a disadvantage.
  We, together with other developed countries, have an obligation to Third World countries. A Third World country which was totally lacking in indigenous fuel resources and asked for nuclear power—
  Mr. Hooley: The last thing Third World countries want is nuclear power.
  Mr. Marshall: Presumably the first thing they want, if they are to develop their industrial infrastructure, is electricity. A Third World country totally lacking in any indigenous fuel presumably does not want to put itself in the hands of the Middle East oil sheikhs, who have been known to quadruple the cost of their product overnight. Presumably, therefore, one of the possibilities such a country might seriously consider is the use of nuclear power stations which, in spite of their high capital costs, compared with conventional fuels, are very competititve with other power stations.
  If we decided to build a nuclear power station, it would mean a lot of economic activity for this country and for the firms which did the construction. I should have thought that in the interests of world people and the need to prevent the proliferation of fissile material, which is available for the production of nuclear weapons, this country should in principle at least have the facility to reprocess the spent fuels from such reactors.
  I should like to see that extended further. I should like BNFL to be allowed to develop the precise requirement of reprocessing the Japanese spent fuel. It is in the interests of world peace and the prevention of proliferation of fissile material that this technology should be concentrated in the countries that have the technology to take care of it, experience that has been gained over many years, and the knowledge that goes with it. I would like to see this country, if possible, perhaps in co-operation with France, become a regional centre in Europe for the reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel. I hope that in the not-too-distant future the Secretary of State for the Environment will give the go-ahead for British Nuclear Fuels Limited to develop additional reprocessing facilities at Windscale.
  8.11 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith: The time left for debate is short, so I shall endeavour to be brief, for I know that many of my hon. Friends wish to speak.
  The hon. Member for Leicester, South (Mr. Marshall) made a most robust defence of the nuclear industry, in marked contrast to some speeches that have been made from his side of the House that struck a more Jeremiah note.

  1323
  I welcome his speech. I do not go all the way with the hon. Member, because he is chasing an illusion if he suggests that we can become one of the major nuclear reprocessing centres. It may be that other countries will want to do this.
  There are dangers in taking the nuclear road. The Flowers Report is not basically anti-nuclear, but we cannot run away from the rather serious warning note that it sounded and that was echoed today by the Secretary of State. Anyone who listened to the debate today would go away a worried person and would welcome the reassurance that has been given by Opposition spokesmen and the Secretary of State that our options will be kept open. There are many problems to be solved before we can decide one way or the other.
  I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Rost) that it is right to support the Bill. I am sure that we should do that. I agree with my hon. Friend that the Secretary of State was in danger of giving the impression that he was keeping options open for options' sake because there were so many other issues in the broad spectrum of energy upon which he had to make decisions. The Secretary of State would help us all if he came out with a clear-cut policy for energy, even if not in great detail. He should make some decision that would sharpen the issues.
  As a country we are badly informed and if we continue in that way the public will increasingly fear even the possibility of a modest nuclear energy programme. In order to explain what is at stake, the Secretary of State will have to spell out the Government's conclusion on the energy gap. The Government will have to tell us more of their views on alternative sources and define the alternative sources of energy. The Government will have to be more robust in their energy conservation programme.
  The report of the Select Committee makes it clear that what has been achieved in this country is pathetic. For a time, we have been subject to euphoria about North Sea oil, the abundance of natural gas, and our huge deposits of coal. But I hope that the lesson of the United States, which has just experienced a terrible winter, will come as a chilling reminder that, despite our proven
  1324
  resources of oil and gas, the days are running out for us. We shall again find ourselves in 15 or 20 years' time a major importer of fossil energy fuel. We have a short time in which to deploy an effective conservation programme. The Secretary of State must refine some of the arguments about the possible dangers of taking the nuclear road.
  Few people have time to digest or even the ability to understand the many complex arguments put forward both in the Flowers Report and in the correspondence columns of The Times, where erudite—even if sometimes pretentious —writers argue their respective viewpoints. The Secretary of State must step up a campaign of information. That campaign will depend upon his refining some of his own views and making certain decisions in the matters that I have indicated. Meanwhile, the Secretary of State must take some steps. As the Flowers Report indicated and as the Opposition spokesman emphasised, he should deal with the matter of nuclear waste. The public cannot possibly have any confidence in a nuclear energy programme for this country so long as action cries out to be taken in this important matter. What is to be done with the waste from our existing energy plants?
  I hope that I am not going too far, but it will be necessary for the Secretary of State to consider setting up an organisation that will be seen to be truly independent in its judgment to supervise the Atomic Energy Authority and the safety of anything to do with the reprocessing of nuclear fuels. The point was made in the document "Nuclear Prospects: a Comment on the Individual, the State and Nuclear Power" by Michael Flood and Robin Grove White that the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate was concerned with only the safe operation of nuclear plants and that its remit did not extend to other operations of the industry.
  Nobody wishes to suspect this able inspectorate of being partial, but the inspectorate is too close to the business that it seeks to police. If the Secretary of State and the Government are to gain the confidence of the public in this area, the Secretary of State should think about establishing, beyond any measure of doubt, the true independence of an organisation that acts as the watchdog of the people in this matter.
  Mr. Palmer: The hon. Gentleman mentioned the report of the Select Committee. That was one of the Committee's recommendations.
  Mr. Johnson Smith: I apologise. I had meant to mention that.
  I come to the matter of cost, which has been mentioned by a number of hon. Members already. It is a most serious problem. We cannot go it alone. I suspect that one of the reasons why we no longer lead the world—even if we think we ought to do so—in nuclear energy is that we have tried to do too much ourselves. A regrettable decision was made a few months ago when it was thought right to reject the light water reactor developed in the United States. I do not want to get drawn in into that matter. But it is inevitable that we must come closer to our friends in Europe, in developing proper security arrangements as well as in matters of safety.
  I do not want to be personal about the Secretary of State, but it is well known that he had strong reservations about our entry into the EEC. I hope that his objection to the system by which we in Western Europe have come together under the umbrella of the Community will not prevent his co-operating enthusiastically with our friends in the EEC. I hope that when the Minister replies tonight he will say something about the progress that has been made as a consequence of his right hon. Friend's visit to the European Community nations recently.
  My last point also arises from the need to co-operate more closely with our friends in the EEC, and it is on the matter of nuclear fusion. I do not want to run away from the problems posed by the Flowers Report and the many comments made in the debate. One good reason for keeping open the fast-breeder reactor option is the possibility that, quite apart from the better use of indigenous fossil fuels, which could give us time, we can expect to find out in the next 10 or 15 years whether nuclear fusion is likely to be practical and commercially possible.
  Nuclear fusion would be the answer to many of the problems that have caused us so much concern. In the meantime we know that the future of the industrial world—and with it the future of the developing world—is at stake. It is right
  1326
  for the Secretary of State to keep open the fast-breeder reactor option. If he decided to go ahead with one tomorrow, it would be three years before it was built in that time, if the right hon. Gentleman presses on with the resolution of which he has shown himself capable in other matters, it should be possible for us to come to a conclusion with our friends and some of the doubts over our nuclear future might have been lifted.
  8.22 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Hardy: I heard the opening speeches in the debate, but I regret that I missed some other contributions. I had other commitments. But the speeches which I have heard have been valuable and serious contributions to the consideration of an important and complex problem. I shall try to follow the example of the hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Johnson Smith), and keep my speech brief, but I hope that he will forgive me if I do not follow him too closely except to say that his comments on Europe were not entirely justified. There is a danger that, but for British technology, at least part of the EEC could become excessively dependent on the United States. Such dependence would not be desirable, and I am therefore delighted that we have maintained a substantial and worthwhile nuclear industry.
  The hon. Member for East Grinstead referred to nuclear fusion and mentioned a time scale of 10 to 15 years. It may be that within 15 years the world will have some idea of the steps which will be required to provide energy through fusion, but it will be much longer before fusion can make the contribution which, in the interests of maintaining civilisation, we must all hope that it can make.
  Before fusion becomes a commercial reality, we may find that our resources of uranium have become scarce and, therefore, expensive. An alternative to fusion may, therefore, have to be explored, certainly by the turn of the century.
  I do not share the views of my hon. Friends who have been very critical of nuclear power, but neither am I a supporter of the extreme proponents of nuclear technology who too glibly assume that the world's fossil fuel resources will be rapidly diminished.

  1327
  Coal must play a major rôle in this country, perhaps for a great deal longer than to the end of the century. We have vast resources, and I sometimes wish that Ministers and the National Coal Board would be less shy about making the public aware of the immensity of our coal resources, some of which have been discovered only recently. We cannot ignore these resources; we need to use them.
  I was pleased to hear that the Minister who is to reply to the debate made some interesting comments in a radio interview tonight in connection with the Coal Industry Bill which is, I understand, to be published tomorrow. It would be a help if my hon. Friend would say a little tonight about the tidings which he has given to the country already.
  If we have even the moderate rate of growth which has been projected in the debate, we should be foolish not to go some way along the nuclear road. Otherwise we should have to rely entirely or largely upon a foolish and perhaps prodigal use of oil and gas.
  I hope that the Minister will be sensitive to the point that the use of nuclear capacity for the rest of this century must not be a threat to the proper use of coal reserves, but merely an alternative to the wasteful use of oil and gas. I accept that the Government must make arrangements to provide Britain with the ability to meet the needs which any rate of growth will present, but without allowing for the wasteful use of oil and gas. Certainly the use of natural gas and oil in boilers during the 1980s seems to be the height of absurdity.
  In providing for future capacity and maintaining our present nuclear capacity, there are grave problems, and the House has been right to view them as seriously as it has done so far. The Secretary of State approached the matter with sensitive and entirely fair-minded care. I think that the House was reassured that wise arrangements were likely to develop. They will have to be very wise because the responsibility on the Government is an awful one.
  Any steps down the road to plutonium technology must be cautious. As we approach that road, the questioning and criticism must be maintained. I should like to reinforce what other hon. Mem
  1328
  bers have said—that, in order to ensure an overriding concern for health and peace, structures of the sort recommended by Sir Brian Flowers should be established. I hope that the Minister will comment on the Government's intentions and note the request that urgent consideration should be given to these matters.
  I welcome the intervention of the Secretary of State a few moments ago on the question of the reporting of incidents. I hope that the arrangements for reporting, which seem entirely satisfactory, will not preclude consideration of the justified recommendations put so ably by Sir Brian Flowers.
  In any urban society, one must concede part of an individual's freedom in order to maintain civilised life. Now a new balance has to be struck between the possible conflict of plutonium and the reality of human folly. Effective vigilance is needed to ensure that the loss of liberty is minimal and that the bureaucracy of security is unobstrusive.
  I am sorry that I missed any speeches by hon. Members of the Liberal Party. There are no Members of that party in the Chamber at present. Their amendment is rather negative. They appear to wish to oppose nuclear development without spelling out the implication that one must draw—that some nuclear capacity is necessary if a return to the primitive is to be avoided sooner or later. I am not convinced that alternative sources can replace fossil fuel or cope with the economic growth that we shall demand or, if we do not, that the rest of the world will insist upon.
  My right hon. Friend removed some of the anxieties about which I intended to speak. It seems that there is no urgent reason for immediate decision about the prospects of the commercial fast-breeder reactor. That might disappoint those at Dounreay who have worked so vigorously and deserve approbation for their achievements. The hon. Member opposite who accompanied me on a visit to that establishment will agree that the work that is done there is impressive. The workers there may be disappointed if the Minister is cautious. However, they are sensible and civilised people and they are aware of the nature of the problem. They are also aware, as are some hon. Members, of the need

  1329
  for energy that will last as long as there is human life. Politicians must ensure that energy is available.
  However, may I press my hon. Friend to say something about the present stage of fast-breeder development at Dounreay? I do not suggest that he strikes a note of triumph, because the trumpeting of national pride is deplorable when it occurs on this subject. There has been an element of that in some parts of Europe.
  I should be grateful if the Minister could give the House one or two estimates about the pace of development of the vitrification process. It would also be useful if the Minister could say when he expects the vitrification process to be commercially operational.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State spoke of the costs of nuclear-generated electricity. Many hon. Members believe that the estimates of these costs offered in the House are sometimes misleading. We need to know the real costs. We are not speaking of a minute provision of electricity which could be described as experimental. Nuclear-generated electricity provides 15 per cent. of our electricity requirement. It is, therefore, essential that the real costs be given.
  The awesomeness of the beast itself might cause us to overlook the vastness of the moneys involved. I read in the Press yesterday that the Treasury is conducting a deep-seated reappraisal of the objectives of public sector investment. Normally I am in favour of the public sector industry being allowed to get on with its job, but in this case there are other considerations. Will my hon. Friend comment about the arrangements and the frequency with which contact is to continue between the various public sector bodies involved and his Department?
  The Minister may say that he does not wish to interfere, but the House must ensure that he is kept fully informed. That information may be vital in its consequence since it could take us to the edge of finality. No chance must be given for inadequacies to develop.
  We are right to be anxious, but, because of the possibility of future energy
  1330
  requirements and because most of us are aware of the existing need, I shall support the Government but, on this occasion, without enthusiasm.
  8.34 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Forman: I am grateful for the opportunity to squeeze into the debate. In the interests of my hon. Friends who still wish to speak, I shall abandon those parts of my speech concerning the costs of reprocessing and the doubts involved in that, and also those parts concerning the environmental hazards of the nuclear fuel cycle. Many hon. Members on both sides have throughly examined those aspects.
  I shall concentrate on what I regard as the most disturbing dimension of the debate on the future of nuclear power, especially on the reprocessing and enrichment, and on the funds which are provided as contingent liabilities in the Bill. This is really the political dimension of the hazards of nuclear proliferation. I believe that it is really on these grounds that concerned scientists and responsible politicians all over the world are coming round to the view that it is right to pause and think about the proliferation implications of the spread of nuclear power, and especially, as I have said, the implications in these sensitive areas.
  It was no coincidence that the Nuclear Suppliers Group spent so much time last year trying to ensure that the sensitive technologies are not exported as part of so-called peaceful nuclear deals. It was no coincidence that President Ford in a major policy speech on 28th October 1976 said:
  "I have concluded that the reprocessing and recycling of plutonium should not proceed unless there is sound reason to conclude that the world community can effectively overcome the associated risks of proliferation. I believe that avoidance of proliferation must take precedence over economic interests."
  It was no coincidence that President Giscard d'Estaing of France announced in a statement of major importance just before Christmas that his country would make no further sales of nuclear reprocessing plants to foreign customers, and that his aides were letting it be known that he hopes that American pressure will lead the Pakistani Government to call off their recent deal with France.
  It will be no coincidence, and no surprise, if President Carter presses very

  1331
  hard to secure three important objectives: first, a voluntary moratorium on the national sale or purchase of enrichment or reprocessing plants; second, to ensure no new United States commitments for the sale of nuclear technology or fuel to countries which refuse to forgo nuclear explosives and to refrain from national nuclear reprocessing and to place their nuclear facilities under IAEA safeguards; and third, to withhold authority for domestic commercial reprocessing until the need for, the economics of and the safety of this technology are clearly demonstrated. Those were three points that were very significant to presidential candidate Carter, as he then was, in his speech at San Diego on 25th September 1976.
  None of these developments should be regarded as a coincidence or a surprise, because the fact is now established in scientific opinion that there is no natural or tenable firebreak between the so-called peaceful and the so-called military uses of nuclear technology. This is what the nuclear power utilities in Spain, Switzerland and Japan are likely to discover for themselves in the near future, if and when the United States, which supplied them with the original fuel, declines to allow its transfer for reprocessing in England or France.
  That is why Albert Wohlstetter and other authors of the very interesting study "Moving Towards Life In A Nuclear Armed Crowd?" said in the thirteenth key conclusion in their summary at the beginning of the book:
  "Our analysis of what it would be like to live in a crowd of nuclear nations leaves very little doubt that the potential spread would introduce new and very threatening dangers in the world. However, while it is very likely that there will be some further spread, how much and how rapidly is not a matter of fate but a subject for policy. So is the management of the additional spread that does take place. That the rate and extent of spread is not immutable is shown by the fact that past and recent plans in various countries to install power reactors and chemical separation plants have altered. We can affect such plans by deliberately changing the economic and political-military incentives."
  That was what that very learned study said and, again, that is why, in spite of or because of all the diagnosed weaknesses in the non-proliferation treaty régime, the Fox Commission concluded in much the
  1332
  same spirit, saying that it believed that it was
  "both essential and possible to make safeguards arrangements more effective."
  I could go on, but I shall not do so because, in the interests of brevity, I want to come to my conclusion.
  There is one other quotation that I should like the House to hear because of the importance and the balance of the source. It comes from the editorial in the Christmas issue of Nature, in which the leader writer felt able to argue as follows:
  "A decision against reprocessing, if sustained, would be a decision against a nuclear future, and to that extent against nuclear power. But at least it would be a reversible decision which would not later preclude lengthening the resulting nuclear interlude finitely (by allowing reprocessing to go ahead) or almost infinitely (by allowing a system of fast breeders). A decision the other way permits no such flexibility."
  It is sad that it seems to be only British policy which is out of step with this rapidly dawning realisation world-wide—the realisation, in Mr. Carter's words, that considerations of commercial profit cannot be allowed to prevail over the paramount objective of limiting the spread of nuclear weapons.
  As I understand it, British policy is still as it was expressed by the Prime Minister in his previous incarnation as Foreign Secretary. He said in a Written Answer:
  "We shall also study with particular care proposals for the export of sensitive equipment or technology … In general we shall exercise restraint in the export of such plants or their technology, and we are at present contributing to the IAEAs study of the feasibility of including such plants in regional fuel centres in the future. When we decide to export them we shall, of course, require assurances that any senistive plants using transferred technology, now or in the future will be subject to IAEA safeguards."—[Official Report, 31st March 1976; Vol. 908, c. 515.]
  It is apparently Government policy not if but when to export this technology. I should like some indication from the Minister on that point.
  I conclude by saying that this issue has the most enormous ethical implications of which the whole House is aware and to which many of us will want to return in the Standing Committee if we get a chance to serve on it. I am not alone in pointing to the implications, and there is nothing

  1333
  cranky about it. I can do no better than to quote President Carter who wrote an article which appeared in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists in October 1976, when he was presidential candidate. It was based on a speech he gave to a United Nations sponsored conference on nuclear energy and world order on 30th May last year. He said:
  "Of one thing I am certain—the hour is too late for business as usual, for politics as usual, for diplomacy as usual. An alliance for survival is needed—transcending regions and ideologies —if we are to assure mankind a safe passage to the twenty-first century.
  The political leaders of all nations, whether they work within four-year election cycles or five-year plans, are under enormous temptations to promise short-term benefits to their people while passing on the costs to other countries, to future generations, or to our environment. The Earth, the atmosphere, the oceans and unborn generations have no political franchise. But short-sighted policies today will lead to insuperable problems tomorrow.
  The time has come for political leaders around the world to take a larger view of their obligations, showing a decent respect for posterity, for the needs of other peoples and for the global biosphere."
  I hope that that happens in the interests of mankind.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine): There are four more hon. Members who wish to take part in the debate and there are 34 minutes left for Back Bench speeches. May I appeal for brevity?
  8.44 p.m.
  Mr. Edwin Wainwright: I shall be brief because I appreciate that some hon. Members have been in the Chamber all day and therefore deserve time to speak. We ought to be grateful to the two Front Bench speakers who have given time away so that all of us can take part in the debate.
  We must think now not so much of the dangers of nuclear power but the danger of not developing nuclear power. That is why I welcome the Bill. There is a tremendous fear about what it might leave in its wake, but one must consider what will happen when we reach that stage in the year 2000, or even in 1980, when the world demand for fuels of all kinds will greatly exceed supply. Therefore, something has to take the place of the ordinary fuel we get from the bowels of the earth.
  1334
  We have supplies of coal that will last 300 years at the present rate of demand. But coal is always difficult to get, and whether we shall succeed in future in getting it more cheaply than we can today, and whether it will be more competitive with other fuels than it is today, I am not certain. Years ago, Professor Thring talked about getting coal from the bowels of the earth without anyone going down to get it. That would be a delightful situation if it could be achieved but, from my experience as a miner, I doubt whether we shall succeed in achieving it. But there may be ways and means by which we can get coal from the earth without many men being employed down below.
  Another important factor is that we could utilise the burning of coal more thoroughly. The fluidisation system is now coming to the fore and will probably enable us to get double the present amount of power from coal. That will be a tremendous push forward.
  Then there is the subject of oil supplies throughout the world and what is to happen in the next two or three decades. There is a strong possibility that unless we conserve oil we shall be short of the motive power that we have today. We all seem to take our own oil supplies for granted, but they have great limitations. Even if our Scottish friends have their way and conserve our supplies, those limitations will be extended by only a few years.
  Our own oil will help us over the next two decades to overcome our present difficulties, but when that time is over we shall have to look around again, and although fusion may come during the next half century, it is not with us now. It appears, therefore, that nuclear power will be essential to supplement our fuel supplies from the bowels of the earth.
  But in the wake of that fact there is great and disturbing fear. What are we to do about it? In the first place, uranium itself is in short supply and could run out. I therefore welcome the Bill because it means that we shall be developing the fast-breeder reactor, which is a necessity. But then, of course, one has to think of what is to happen to the radioactive waste. Shall we be able to control it? Are we able to ensure that it will not leave in its wake tremendously

  1335
  harmful effects not merely on the life of mankind but wherever we put it?
  We talk about, and are, dumping it in the sea. Some scientists say that we can guarantee that it will be there for thousands of years without danger of leakage. Others say that it is too dangerous to do what we are doing with it, that some of it can last 20,000 years. So, of course, one is deeply disturbed, for no generation of mankind is entitled to do something that will be of great harm and hurt to posterity. We should therefore think deeply about this and go cautiously.
  Undeveloped nations need energy and power. The hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeet) smiles, but there is truth in that. How can nations be developed without power? Nuclear power is probably far easier to establish in such places than other forms of energy. We owe them something, having taken from them minerals, oil and gas. I am not sure that we are not still transporting liquefied gas today.
  We have a tremendous responsibility to control radioactive waste and to ensure that posterity is not harmed. The answer is not simple. Reasonable people are upset when those who speak on this subject express too much confidence, for they can give no real guarantee. Let us go forward steadily and surely, developing the fast-breeder reactor, remembering always that the waste must be made safe so that posterity does not suffer.
  8.53 p.m.
  Mr. T. H. H. Skeet: I, too, will economise on time and select only three points.
  While Britain has achieved little success in exporting nuclear power stations, it has succeeded in building up a considerable export and potential in the production of radio isotopes at Amersham, the reprocessing of spent fuel at Windscale and the conversion of uranium into UF6 and enrichment of uranium at Capenhurst and the fabrication of fuel elements at Springfield. The work of British Nuclear Fuels Limited is a centrepiece of the Bill and it would be lamentable if, through lack of foresight and judgment, Members of Parliament curtailed the prospects of BNFL and thus passed on to the French and possibly the
  1336
  Germans much of the work which will have to be done.
  Britain has a nuclear presence which will shortly account for 13 per cent. of total power generated, and its commitment to reprocessing the spent fuel elements of 11 Magnox stations and several AGRs is inescapable. In fact, it will be environmentally hazardous to do otherwise.
  Paragraph 131 of the Flowers Report says:
  "Magnox fuel reprocessing should be begun within a year of leaving the reactor because corrosion of the cladding allows fission products to leak out."
  That is an obvious conclusion.
  The volume of Magnox fuel reprocessing undertaken for customers is at least £200 million-17,000 tonnes of fuel elements—plus £12 million-700 tonnes of Magnox fuel—for customers in Japan and Italy. A total of £245 million is obviously required for the replacement of these facilities at Windscale and a further £40 million for the development of the vitrification. Professor G. N. Walton of Imperial College has said that, resulting from the Magnox power programme, 20,000 tonnes of depleted uranium were stored. This is equivalent to billions of tons of coal if a breeder reactor is developed. This "waste" with a breeder reactor represents an addition to the real indigenous wealth of the nation comparable with coal and North Sea oil.
  I should like to ask the Secretary of State one quick question. I know that his policy is not to come to any speedy conclusion about the fast-breeder reactor. The French, West Germans and Italians are acting in concert on this matter. Therefore, will he announce at a fairly early date that he will allow the AEA and others involved to go ahead with the CFR 1? That will enable this country to use uranium as a fuel 50 times more effectively than' in any other nuclear reactor system and enable us to run down our plutonium stocks.
  I should like to make a quick reference to the oxide plants. The BNFL is a participant in United Reprocessors Gmbh, which is designed to co-ordinate the investment in the reprocessing of nuclear fuel elements, the marketing of services—to provide technical exchange.

  1337
  It would be ludicrous for Britain not to go ahead with building the planned oxide facilities. That is self-evident.
  There is substantial nuclear capacity around the world and, indeed, in Western Europe which requires oxide fuel reprocessing. The refusal of Britain—which is perhaps the leading country in oxide processing technology—to build a plant or inordinately to delay it would leave the world problem unresolved.
  As URG associates three sovereign States, doubtless if one country refused to participate with oxide ventures the others would seem to benefit. Thus, the French company Cogema, which has a contract to reprocess 1,635 tonnes of oxide fuel from Japan, could take the lot.
  With the long lead times involved in setting up plants, the Government's policy of going on a decision-making holiday hoping that problems will resolve themselves in the meantime is both irresponsible and totally against the national interest. The Secretary of State should state specifically whether the Government are prepared to commit BNFL to go ahead with its 1,00 tonnes per annum thermal dioxide plant and the expected time gap envisaged before a firm decision is reached—his early enunciations are not clear on that point—and whether the planning inquiry required to consider the views of those involved is to be of the normal type or a public inquiry commission under the Town and Country Planning Act 1971? That would unduly prolong examination of the issues involved. I put that point to the right hon. Gentleman, and he seemed to be going along the lines of a planning inquiry commission. That could be extremely detrimental to the industry.
  I should also like to inquire whether the Secretary of State has given the Japanese Overseas Reprocessing Committee firm assurances that the BNFL will be able to go ahead with building storage ponds in pursuance of the contract and prior to the completion of the inquiry. I think that should be done, even though the Secretary of State will be waiting for the outcome of the inquiry.
  Will the United States Government, who provided the initial fuel charges for the Japanese nuclear power stations, per
  1338
  mit the shipment of nuclear waste to the United Kingdom for reprocessing? The right hon. Gentleman has given me a partial answer on that point.
  We are in extremely big business here. The AEA has been very successful over the years. In 1975 exports of natural uranium amounted to £29·6 million and exports of radio isotopes amounted to nearly £25 million.
  The Under-Secretary is on record as having said:
  "Earnings from past and current foreign reprocessing contracts are expected to amount to about £45 million by 1980, and the Japanese work would be worth some £400 million."— [Official Report, 8th December 1975, Vol. 902, c. 201.]
  All the work done on the home front for the domestic industry amounts to about £200 million to date. The extent of the business up to 1990 which has been planned by the BNFL would work out to about 29,835 tonnes, of which 25 per cent. would be held abroad.
  I shall mention briefly the capacity for oxide fuel in the United Kingdom. On the Magnox front, the BNFL has a proven capacity of 1,500 tonnes per annum. Up to date it has been working beyond that capacity most successfully. the Oxide Headend Plant of 120 tonnes capacity was closed down because of an incident in 1973, but will be refurbished and reopened in 1978 at 400 tonnes per annum. I think that would take care of the total reprocessing requirement of the 5,000 megawatt AGR programme, because it is not likely to exceed between 200 and 300 tonnes per annum of oxide fuel. I am assured that the SGHWR programme of 4,000 megawatts will not go ahead. I am concerned, however, about the reprocessing of the fuel elements from Japan, Sweden and other Continental countries. It is, therefore, essential that if BNFL do not have a home oxide plant and a foreign oxide plant as well, at least the pooling should be of one oxide unit.
  Let us make it perfectly clear that on a European basis the United Reprocessors GMBH are the ones which coordinate investment. I have established that by the second half of the 1980s this would be about 8,000 tonnes capacity per annum. That is 5,300 tonnes oxide plant and natural uranium at 2,400, making 7,700 tonnes per annum. This

  1339
  would be available. But let us make no mistake that, while there was an overcapacity in 1971, today there is a total undercapacity which is likely to persist. If we are to have any success reprocessing must march hand in hand with the development of nuclear power.
  I promised that I would not speak for any great length of time. I am concerned with a final point—vitrification. The Minister has said that it is a possibility that he may have to return the fuel elements to the Japanese because they cannot be vitrified in the United Kingdom. I would have thought that with all the experiments that are going on in the United Kingdom, France, Sweden and elsewhere vitrification is a dead cert. He will be in a position to tell the Japanese that in fact they have found a way through this problem and that elements which are 3 per cent. of the total can be calciumed, embedded in glass or put aside in locations, either for future disposal under the bed of the oceans or in salt mines or clay, for future protection.
  In the United Kingdom we have done all the research and development on that. We have all the assistance of our collaboration with Europe. The French are very advanced in waste solidification with a semi-continuous pilot facility Piver. They have produced up to 12 tonnes of glass and are also going ahead with an industrial-scale facility at Marcoule which will have a considerable capacity.
  The ASEA of Sweden has been using powerful compressors to compact the waste with ceramic materials into a rocklike solid, thus avoiding high temperature operations in the United Kingdom method.
  With all this development, I would have thought this was sufficient to give guarantees under the Japanese contract.
  I would make a plea for a National Waste Disposal Corporation. This is an excellent idea. I hope it will be independent, and that it will look at the AEA, the CEGB and the several companies in the United Kingdom and ensure that this matter is not lost sight of.
  9.4 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Dodsworth: The whole House is grateful to the Secretary of State for his
  1340
  introduction of this Bill and for indicating the possible areas of interest and development of ideas. I hope that I will be forgiven if I concentrate on one of those particular areas. I should like to say more about parliamentary control and the effective use of the instruments of government in the nuclear industry. But I restrict myself to nuclear costings because in that one simple illustration I may be able to make my point in a practical way.
  It seems to me to be true that the nuclear industry represents a financial minefield. I should not like anyone to think that that observation reflects antipathy on my part towards the nuclear industry, because the case is very much the reverse. However, I am anxious that the Government and Parliament should be alert to the problems which the industry faces, and there are illustrations from our own track record to which I want to draw attention.
  I had the pleasure of reading the annual report of British Nuclear Fuels Limited to 31st March 1976, and I found that on page 17, in the notes referring to profits. it said:
  "Certain reprocessing contracts entered into in previous years which have now become unprofitable are in course of renegotiation. Pending the outcome of these negotiations it is not possible to determine whether any provision needs to be made for losses which may arise in future years."
  So we have to say that here is perhaps a reservation.
  Having read that, I thought to myself "This is Parliament, and I should ask the Minister". Accordingly, I tabled four Questions to him, and on 2nd December last year he replied. He said.
  "These are matters within the day-to-day management of the company and I have asked the Chairman of BNFL to write to the hon. Member about them."—[Official Report. 2nd December 1976; Vol. 921, c. 226–7.]
  That is quite fair. If they are matters which are day-to-day running affairs, perhaps they should be dealt with by the company itself.
  In due course, on 11th December, I received a letter from the Chairman of British Nuclear Fuels Limited giving me some of the information that I sought. But, arising in that letter, we start to see some of the problems of parliamentary control, and to illustrate my point I quote

  1341
  from the letter. He refers to the Minister and says that he
  "declined to answer your questions because they related to matters of day-to-day management of the Company and were not therefore the Secretary of State's responsibility. As you will see from the letter, Government decisions do in fact impinge on two of your questions, but I will nevertheless do what I can to answer them."
  That seems to reflect perhaps not a difference of opinion but a difference of view about what is a matter for Government decision and what is not.
  I refer immediately to the reprocessing contracts, and I quote from the letter:
  "As to the reprocessing contracts mentioned in the Auditors' Report on our Accounts for 1975–76. renegotiation of these is still in progress. delayed in part by our inability to commit ourselves to the extension of the contracts until planning consent for the proposed new plant at Windscale has been given. I cannot, in the present uncertain situation, give an estimate of future losses. We had hoped to negotiate arrangements which would minimise or eliminate loss, but the announced intention to hold a public inquiry into the new plant for reprocessing oxide fuel, coming as it does a year after the Government's approval for further overseas reprocessing business, could make a substantial loss unavoidable."
  It seems to me that we have political problems attached to this operation for which, in our parliamentary rôle, we are responsible. I had hoped to refer to some of the social problems which we bring about. But we have here a commercial operation which we have set up and which is bedevilled by actions that in my view we have properly taken.
  One way or another, this Bill represents £1,000 million. Some of my hon. Friends doubt that, but I do not. It seems to me that in one form or another it commits the Government to support of that order. I notice that Clause 1(6) reads:
  "Any sums required for fulfilling a guarantee given under this section shall be paid out of money provided by Parliament."
  If I may summarise that, it seems to indicate the belief that if we lose money on any reprocessing contracts, the Government will be forced to make payments under the guarantees. That suggests that there will have to be a negotiated settlement under these reprocessing contracts and that we are contemplating making losses.
  It is quite wrong in my view to have a sense of euphoria about what can be
  1342
  achieved under these reprocessing contracts. The nuclear industry is a superb export opportunity for our country, and reprocessing contracts may well be part of that. I shall not bore the House by quoting examples from the United States that run into billions of dollars and the problems that have arisen from reprocessing contracts that are likely to be contemplated. All I ask is that we ensure that we carry out our duty and satisfy ourselves that when we undertake commitments of this size and nature we have a prognosis with which we can live in future.
  9.11 p.m.
  Mr. Neil Macfarlane: First, I express my gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Gray) and the Under-Secretary of State for curtailing their speeches and allowing greater participation in the debate.
  I am grateful to the Secretary of State for the refreshing way in which he viewed some of the problems facing the nuclear industry and the entire energy programme. I was especially interested in the six decision-making areas that confront him. However, I am concerned that this measure, which I support wholeheartedly, may, alas, be another example of some of the piecemeal operations that the Government and the country have always tended to apply to energy matters over the past 15 to 20 years. That is my sneaking concern. Maybe the purists will argue that once again there are powers to be taken in respect of the purchasing or acquiring of shares, or other securities, in the NNC. That is a matter that we can discuss further in Committee.
  I share some of the concern about nuclear safety that has been expressed both inside and outside the House. I am happy that this measure will be a modest contribution towards helping the nuclear industry and the nation to overcome the long-term energy problems that now bedevil us as well as most of the rest of Western civilisation.
  I have to confess to some sympathy for the Secretary of State and his junior ministerial colleagues in the Department of Trade, which is a newish Department in comparison with some of the longer established Departments of State, as they try to grapple with some of the energy

  1343
  problems. There are the interdepartmental difficulties through the corridors of Whitehall and the complex nature of government. I have some sympathy for them as they try to create some co-ordination of the nation's energy requirements and try to produce a long-term plan. I suppose that in this context "long-term" is 10 to 15 years, but many of us look to the 1990s and beyond.
  I am prepared to forgive the Ministers in the Department of Energy if they are not 100 per cent. successful. That is because the complexities are well understood by those of us who have had a past career in some part of the energy sphere. The lack of co-ordination has been deep-rooted for a long time, both through poor organisation of government in power and energy matters and through the lack of a conservation policy for the fossil fuels.
  The other problem that I shall consider briefly is the last item to which the Secretary of State referred—namely, the alternative energy sources open to the country. I was concerned to read in "Atom" of December 1976 a paper by the chief scientist of the Department of Energy, Dr. Walter Marshall, who is also the Deputy Chairman of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority. I refer to the paper that he presented at the Unwin Memorial Lecture to the British Nuclear Energy Society at the Institution of Civil Engineers on 28th September 1976. It was a good paper and a good lecture but I was concerned when he stated:
  "My view, and that of the Department of Energy, is that we cannot see beyond the immediate future with any confidence, and that we therefore cannot take a decision on R &D which assumes any one out of the range of possible futures which might be imagined".
  I was depressed by his lack of enthusiasm for the potential alternative sources of energy. I should like to think that some of the money that is to be appropriated under the Bill could be apportioned towards research and development in alternative sources of energy. Although they might not be directly applied in this country, they would have tremendous benefits in other countries that have more adaptable climates. We have discussed solar, tidal, geothermal and other sources of energy, but the fact is that the chief scientist's comments worry me because
  1344
  he and his colleagues do not appear to be looking commercially at potential exports to suitable countries.
  Perhaps the Minister in reply can say which Department has responsibility for looking at this area, and certainly the Secretary of State will know from his experience in the Department of Industry all about the responsibilities of the National Research Development Corporation. Perhaps the Minister will be able to say who is handling potential exports and examining alternative sources of energy. There is no doubt that this country needs a whole series of interrelated decisions. Those decisions must be made now. There has been too much vacillation for far too long, and the difficulties this country has suffered are well known to all of us.
  I conclude by saying that we are fortunate in having a reliable, dependable and successful nuclear research industry, and in the Atomic Energy Authority, the TRCL and the BNFL we have organisations which are second to none. We should be proud of that fact and we should not fear for the future of nuclear fuel.
  I want to see that industry expand, and I was pleased to hear the Secretary of State say that the use of nuclear power in electricity terms will increase from 13 per cent. to 20 per cent. by the end of the decade. I look forward to the time when we can monitor these provisions in Committee. I wish the Secretary of State well as he tries to grapple with our nation's energy problems.
  9.17 p.m.
  Mr. Hamish Gray: It is interesting that this debate has at least proved one thing—namely, that there is no unanimity on either side of the House on the subject of nuclear fuel. We are all grateful to the Secretary of State for Energy for the way in which he introduced the Bill and for enabling the House to have a general discussion on nuclear topics.
  I was grateful to my hon. Friends the Members for Bedford (Mr. Skeet), Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Dodsworth) and Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Macfarlane) for condensing their speeches. We are all grateful for their co-operation.
  The importance of the documents and questions prepared by the staff and trade

  1345
  unions at the Dounreay Experimental Research Establishment highlighted the problems of nuclear fuel. We are in danger of discussing nuclear questions in isolation. We must bear in mind the risks run in various types of industry and we must seek to compare those risks for the future with the risks attached to the use of nuclear fuel.
  In a Written Answer on 26th January 1977 the Secretary of State for Energy said that he was referring the list of questions to the Secretary of State for Employment, and he also reported that his right hon. Friend was asking the Health and Safety Commission to prepare detailed replies for consideration. He added
  "My right hon. Friend will then arrange for a report by the Commission to be laid before the House in due course."—[Official Report, 26th January 1977; Vol. 924, c. 634.]
  I wish to emphasise the need for a speedy presentation of that report. Those who work in the industry are very concerned about their future, and we are grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for initiating a wide-ranging public debate on the matter. Those who work in the nuclear industry have shown a great deal of apprehension, and the sooner these matters are resolved the better.
  There are in all 32 questions together with appendices produced by the establishment at Dounreay. One important question deals with the subject of what pollutants are released by nuclear-powered stations, oil-fired stations and coal-fired stations and seeks to compare the results.
  Another worrying feature is the storage of petroleum gas. If, for example, some petroleum gas were to escape and explode over such a place as Canvey Island, what would be the result? It is important to consider these matters when we are considering the dangers of nuclear fuel.
  The decisions which the Secretary of State must take in the nuclear field are many and varied. One wonders sometimes whether the Secretary of State has consultations with other bodies in mind when taking these decisions. I was interested to see that he has decided to set up his Energy Commission, but I was surprised that he had not included
  1346
  anyone from the managerial side of those companies exploring the oilfields in the North Sea on that commission. It may have been worth while to include a representative from an area where so much success has been achieved.
  This is a sort of Bullock of his own. The Secretary of State has created an organisation with strong union representation, but not so plentiful representation from other areas. It might be called "Bean's Bullock". I wish it success and I hope that it comes up with some constructive answers, but I should have liked to see it strengthened in other areas.
  Many hon. Members have referred to sites for disposal of waste, and the fact that there are a lot of fears in both Scotland and Wales. My hon. Friend the hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Forman), in a thoughtful speech which displayed his great knowledge of the subject, mentioned a number of factors of note. I thought that his attitude could be compared with that of the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Penhaligon), who was less than responsible in some of his remarks. Indeed, some of the questions he posed to the Minister could have been answered if he had taken the trouble to spend an hour or so with the BNFL people, who could have eased his mind on many issues. It is wrong to make a speech which stirs up anxiety outside, in many ways unnecessarily.
  Mr. Penhaligon: Is the hon. Member saying that by knowing a problem one can make it disappear?
  Mr. Gray: On the contrary, I would not suggest any such thing. I was suggesting that the hon. Member was less than responsible in some of the things that he said without checking his facts beforehand.
  The hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Howells) mentioned the anxiety in Wales. He asked the Secretary of State to list the areas being considered for underground storage of nuclear waste. The Secretary of State replied:
  "Proposals actually to use geological strata for disposal would only be made after the fullest consideration of all the safety and environmental issues including wide consultations—and on the basis of a conclusion that it would be safe to do so."—[Official Report, 2nd February. 1977: Vol. 925, c. 209.]

  1347
  Those hon. Members who have some fears about sites in Scotland should take things a little easier and stop chasing around the countryside with petitions about refusing to have nuclear waste dumped in Scotland. They would be wiser to wait until the reports are produced about the most suitable areas and types of area for disposal of this waste.
  The Sunday Times on 14th November, in a very interesting article, dealt with the problem of burying nuclear waste. I quote:
  "The form the burial ground takes will depend on a research and appraisal programme that will take 10 years before operations start, even on a pilot scale."
  We are in danger in this House of stirring up anxiety when it is not justified.
  Some of the other decisions which the right hon. Gentleman will have to make involve the SGHWR, which is running late. As the Secretary of State pointed out today, a decision on the £40 million was deferred in July 1976. This reactor perhaps does not have the export potential of its light-water competitor, but this is a decision which unquestionably will have to be made and which is in the right hon. Gentleman's lap.
  The right hon. Gentleman has emphasised his anxiety to assess public opinion in every possible way, but I say to him with every respect that wide-ranging public debates cannot be a substitution for decision-making and leadership. It will be up to him to make this decision, and I hope that he will not put it off for too long. It is very important that the whole future of the fast-breeder reactor is decided.
  My hon. Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Johnson Smith) was perhaps a little optimistic when he said that perhaps within 15 years nuclear fusion might be a possibility. I think that the project is much longer term than that, and while I agree with him that we certainly want to keep all options open, inevitably, if we are to bridge the gap which will face us in the 1990s, the Secretary of State must make his decision quickly.
  Mr. Skeet: One of the great dangers of keeping options open is that one might never close them, that there might never be a decision on anything. That is what the Secretary of State is doing. This
  1348
  country will be better off if only he will reach one decision on the nuclear front.
  Mr. Gray: My hon. Friend has a habit of being outspoken, and I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will take on board what he said. We shall have opportunities during the Committee stage to probe these matters more fully, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will be in that field.
  The great advantage of the fast-breeder reactor will be its ability to create its own fuel, and the world-wide scarity of uranium by the end of the century will enhance this attraction. Both Canada and Australia will require their own uranium at that time, and it is therefore unlikely that we shall be able to import. The fast breeder is capable of producing 60 times the energy realised by a conventional reactor from similar quantities of uranium and the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority estimates that with a full commitment to a fast-breeder programme by the Government, with supplies of uranium already existing in this country, we could outlive our coal resources, which at present are estimated to last about 300 years.
  In his report Sir Brian Flowers said that there was no objection to the reprocessing planned at Windscale. I do not want to deal at length with Windscale question because my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) dealt with it when he spoke at the beginning of the debate. The Chairman of BNFL, Sir John Hill, is at present considerably worried, not unnaturally, about public acceptability and in a recent speech he made what I thought was a very important statement. He said:
  "I believe that the much-publicised hazards of nuclear power, far from being greater than many other dangers which we accept as a normal part of life, are comparatively modest thanks to systematic analysis and multiple safeguards."
  Anybody who has visited any of the BNFL establishments can confirm that a great deal of attention is certainly paid to the whole question of safety. BNFL has an outstanding record in this area which stands comparison with the record of any other industry in the country. The hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer) made the point that exactly the same risks existed in the development of nuclear power 15 to 20 years ago and

  1349
  that they have not changed. The risks remain today and are no more serious now than they were then.
  The Secretary of State must decide whether the fast-breeder reactor technology is essential for the future of our energy industry, whether it can be developed to a satisfactory safety level, and whether it is socially desirable. Opinion will obviously be divided on that. The Friends of the Earth, Half Life and other bodies whose sincerity cannot be doubted are reportedly carrying out a close examination into that. MPs are fortunate in that they have such a ready supply of information from all sides.
  We should consider the opinion of Mr. Francis Tombs, former Chairman of the South of Scotland Electricity Board. A report on his comments in The Times of Thursday, 11th November 1976 said:
  "total energy consumption in the United Kingdom today was about 330 million tons of coal equivalent and was estimated to approach 600 million tons by the end of the century. By that time, North Sea oil would have been developed and actual coal production might have risen to 150 million tons. The gap could not be bridged by wave and wind power, solar energy and domestic refuse, he said. It was irresponsible to suggest otherwise."
  We must pay particular attention to that view, because Mr. Tombs has been an interested advocate of the steam-generated heavy-water reactor for a long time, and it is interesting to have his long-term prediction.
  But it is the politicians who will have to make the final judgment. We must remember that 12,000 people are employed in the nuclear industry and that they are looking to us to see which course we take. In future, the reactors and reprocessing plants may well be designed side by side. That suggestion is made in one of the publications of Friends of the Earth.
  The present system of transportation gives rise to considerable anxiety among those who are apprehensive about nuclear energy. It is expected that the transportation from Dounreay to Windscale will not continue for more than a few years. This transportation has been going on for a considerable time. Some people have suggested that the transportation should be done by sea rather than by road, but obviously transport by sea would have
  1350
  almost as serious implications in the event of an accident as transport by road.
  The containers currently used are of immense strength, have gone through the most rigorous tests and are adequate for the purpose. Always in discussing nuclear fuel we speak of the largest accidents, but in discussing other industries we do not attach the same importance to their possible immense dangers. Planning carried out a few years ago might have prevented the Flixborough disaster. In future when such plants are built adequate measures will be taken, no doubt, to protect the public. Considering the enormous outcry that there is about the possibility of a nuclear disaster, I do not wish for a moment to minimise the danger, but it should be considered in perspective.
  I shall finish now because the Minister kindly agreed to reduce the length of the winding-up speeches and he will no doubt wish to answer some of the many points that have been raised in the debate. We shall want to have a much closer look at the Bill in Committee when we shall be tabling amendments, but in the meantime we welcome it in principle and hope that it will be given a Second Reading.
  9.35 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. Alex Eadie): I think that the decision to allow more time for Back Bench speeches was right and one from which the whole House has profited. I should like to congratulate the four hon. Members who spoke at the end of the debate on their weighty contributions.
  The hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Gray) said that the reduction in the time for winding up put him in some difficulty. I hope that the House will bear with me if I say that it has put me in a similar difficulty. I have so much to say that I do not quite know where to start. The hon. Gentleman assisted me when he said at the end of his speech that we would be returning to many points in Committee.
  Perhaps I might start by drawing the attention of the House to three comments made in the debate—two by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer) and one by the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King). My hon. Friend is an electrical engineer

  1351
  of some experience, and he drew the attention of the House to the fact that workers in the industry would probably prefer to work in a nuclear station rather than in a coal-fired station. That was a significant remark because it showed that we have got away from the argument of whether we have mastered the technology of being able to generate electricity from nuclear power and that the nub of our debate is now whether we can successfully deal with the effluent from that generating process.
  The second point raised by my hon. Friend was even more important. He said that decisions might be uncomfortable or unpopular, but that they had to be made. While we have been discussing in this worthwhile debate the dangerous and awesome decisions which my right hon. Friend must make and the burden of responsibility which rests on his shoulders in doing so, we have realised that the nuclear argument is developing not only in this country but throughout the world. As politicians, it is as well for us to remember what my hon. Friend said because when we take decisions we often put people's lives in jeopardy.
  For instance, if we decide to allocate resources for a new motorway-building programme, we shall be killing people. If we decide that there should be more investment in coal mining, we know that people will be killed as a result of that decision. As a consequence of our decision to explore the North Sea for oil and gas, people have been killed and more people will be killed in future. The North Sea is one of the most hostile environments in the world, and we are always disturbed when divers are killed in spite of all the modern aids that have been given to them. We should not be comfortable. We should be humble about some of our decisions.
  The hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty made out the need for the Bill when he said that there was an environmental case for it. I hang my hat on that argument. Some hon. Members have had doubts, but they have been dealt with during the debate.
  If I have time I shall discuss other important matters that were raised by hon. Members but first I shall deal with certain aspects of the Bill which I hope will assist the House, particularly during the Committee stage.
  1352
  The Bill has four main effects. First, it raises capital payment limits for BNFL and, to facilitate borrowings from the private sector, it empowers the Government to guarantee such borrowings. Secondly, it makes similar provision for TRCL. Thirdly, it allows the Government to guarantee advance payments made by customers of BNFL in relation to contracts for services. Fourthly, it empowers the Government to incur expenditure on buying shares in the National Nuclear Corporation from willing sellers.
  BNFL needs extra financial headroom because of its plan to develop its business over the next five to 10 years. The company trades in a large way. Sales, for example, to the home generating boards and others were over £100 million last year. It can provide much of its finance from its own resources. However, the company estimates a need for some £230 million from external sources over the next five years. This, I emphasise, is investment in a profitable business.
  Existing legislation limits loans and subscriptions to BNFL for shares from public funds to £75 million. This limit is inadequate for the proposed expansion and the Bill would increase it to £300 million. To take account of possible future developments, including possible price increases, this limit could be further increased to £500 million by an order subject to affirmative resolution of this House.
  To facilitate the raising of private finance, the Bill also empowers the Government to guarantee private borrowings. As such a guarantee is an alternative to public funding, sums guaranteed will count against the limits that I mentioned earlier.
  In this connection, the company has already negotiated a loan facility of £100 million from a consortium of banks, and the Government have indicated that they will guarantee this loan if the Bill is enacted.
  The power to guarantee advance payments by customers is needed because if the company does in the event undertake overseas work—and I re-emphasise that this proposition is subject to the outcome of the oxide plant inquiry—those customers will be called on to make large advance payments to finance construction. It is possible that they will ask

  1353
  for some external guarantee that the funds could be returned if, for instance, the plant were not constructed. The Bill would enable the Government to do this within a limit of £400 million, which may be raised to £500 million by affirmative resolution of this House—figures related to the possible cost of building a plant. The guarantee is, of course, in no way a guarantee of performance on the part of BNFL.
  Mr. Macfarlane: Before the Minister leaves that point, will he say why the Bill empowers the Secretary of State to acquire shares in the NNC?
  Mr. Eadie: If the hon. Gentleman will recollect, or perhaps look at the record later, he will see that my right hon. Friend was asked that question, and he answered in relation to the AEA and the Government. However, I shall look at the hon. Gentleman's question.
  The overseas part of BNFL's business would be separate from the funding of home business, so these guarantees will not count against the company's primary financial limits.
  I now turn to the Radiochemical Centre, to which I shall refer as theTRC. This company has traded very successfully since it was set up in 1971, and is also expanding. Future investment totalling £30 million is in prospect. Most of this can be funded internally. The external finance requirement should be limited to £10 million. The Government agreed to subscribe £5 million of this as new equity in July last year: £2 million in this financial year, and £3 million during next. The company expects to be able to borrow the remainder on the private market on its own credit. This has been possible within the company's present financial limit of £5 million.
  In view of the expansion of the company, it seems desirable to us to give it more financial flexibility. This the Bill will do. First, the maximum to which the financial limit may be raised by order subject to affirmative resolution is to be increased from £7 million to £15 million. In effect, this would restore the limit to the value that it had in 1971 when it was originally set. Second, as with BNFL, the Government are empowered to
  1354
  guarantee private borrowing again, and sums will count against the financial limit.
  The Bill also allows expenditure on the acquisition of shares in the NNC. There is nothing devious in this proposal. We simply want to tidy up a situation which, while not causing difficulty at present, is illogical. First, if the Government at some future time wanted to increase their interest in this part of the nuclear power industry, my right hon. Friend would, as things stand, have to ask the Atomic Energy Authority to do it on his behalf and ask it afterwards to transfer the new holdings to him. This we propose to put right.
  Mr. Skeet: Will the Minister give way?
  Mr. Eadie: No, because I want to come to some of the things that the hon. Gentleman mentioned.
  Mr. Skeet: It is on that point.
  Mr. Eadie: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to continue.
  Secondly, while the Secretary of State has power to direct the Authority to transfer to him the shares it holds on the Government's behalf in TRC and BNFL, he has no such power in relation to the shares which the AEA holds in the NNC. The Government might in the future want to bring their interests in the nuclear industry into a single hand. In such a situation, though the existing Authority holding in NNC could be transferred to him without payment of a purchase price, the Secretary of Sate would not have the stautory financial authority for any incidental expenditure, such as stamp duty, that might be required in connection with such a transfer. It would also be necessary, once shares have been transferred, to be able to meet further possible expenditure; for example, in taking up new issues.
  The Bill would allow this to be done. The Government can already acquire shares from willing sellers through the AEA. The proposed provision does no more than give the Government the alternative of managing their existing and future interest in the NNC.
  Mr. Tom King: Although the facts which the Minister is giving to the House are extremely interesting, they will probably come out in Committee. Would he

  1355
  make some attempt to answer some of the questions put to him in the debate?
  Mr. Eadie: The hon. Gentleman will have to contain himself. He has anticipated what I am about to do. I explained at the outset that certain things needed to be put on the record, and if he reads the debate tomorrow he will agree that I am replying to some of the points made. I propose to deal wih some, not all, of the points in detail. I am sorry if I give the hon. Gentleman offence in the way in which I propose to make my own speech.
  The question has been posed of what other things my hon. Friend does in relation to energy. I was surprised at this question, especially as today we published the report of the tripartite committee on the coal industry. If the hon. Gentleman were to read that report he would see that, as a consequence of action between the Government, the trade unions and the National Coal Board, we were signposting the road for investment in future energy production.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) said that we had 300 years supply of coal, and he asked what the Government were doing to exploit it. By giving coal its proper rôle in energy requirement and in energy production, my right hon. Friend has made a substantial contribution to our present and future economic well-being.
  The hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Johnson Smith), in a good contribution, asked about the future rôle of nuclear fusion as opposed to nuclear fission. He asked that my right hon. Friend should bear this in mind, and hoped that the technology would be advanced to some extent. He mentioned a period of 10 to 15 years. I have great pleasure in telling the hon. Gentleman that this year my right hon. Friend is presiding over consideration of this aspect in Europe.
  I have already spoken in the House three times on nuclear fusion perhaps better known as JET. My right hon. Friend has already been very active in Europe in trying to get the Council of Ministers to take a decision on the question of JET. Because of his initiative, the whole of Europe will shortly be in a position to know that we have carried
  1356
  out the resolve which was made last year —to get the question of siting a fusion project settled so that our part of the world can go ahead with this new technology.
  I agree that the sooner we come to an agreement on that question the sooner we shall be able to accelerate this new technology. One hon. Member mentioned that it might be in the next century before fusion can be used to produce power. The House sympathises with the view that it is time that the EEC went ahead with the principle of establishing a system of nuclear fusion. Culham is still a strong candidate for the JET project, and we will continue to argue the case for this country as a suitable venue.
  When we are dealing with nuclear power and alternative sources of energy I accept that Governments past and present have perhaps not got their allocations right in relation to alternative sources of energy. Perhaps, therefore, we should consider how we are to allocate our limited financial resources. What is clear is that no country can hope to become industrialised unless it has adequate sources and supplies of energy. My right hon. Friend is very conscious of that fact, as is illustrated by his idea of an Energy Commission.
  Mr. Tom King: As it is clear that the hon. Gentleman will not be able to cover all the questions asked in the debate, perhaps he will answer one that is fundamental to the Bill. It concerns the reprocessing and the guarantees involved. What is happening about the public inquiry? What advice is his Department giving to BNFL in reply to its inquiries?
  Mr. Eadie: Had I the time, I would deal with that point in detail. What I have said has been relevant to points made in the debate. The public inquiry is being handled by the Department of the Environment, which will be responsible for the decisions. The application for an oxide plant has to be submitted. and when it is it will be considered.
  The Liberals have said that they might decide to vote against the Bill. I hope that they will not do so. I hope that they realise the consequences of defeating the Bill. It would mean stopping the work

  1357
  that is being done to refurbish and improve the plant being used to reprocess Magnox fuel, and it would involve questions of safety in the closing of the stations. It would mean stopping investment in the centrifuge plant, which in turn would mean that collaboration would
  cease. The environmental aspects of the Bill will be fully catered for.
  Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
  The House divided: Ayes, 196, Noes, 22.

  Division No. 59.]

  AYES

  [9.59 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Park, George

  Anderson, Donald

  Grant, John (Islington C)

  Parker, John

  Archer, Peter

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Parry, Robert

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Hardy, Peter

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Ashton, Joe

  Harper, Joseph

  Perry, Ernest

  Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Price, C. (Lewisham W)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Hart, Rt Hon Judith

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Hayman, Mrs Helene

  Radice, Giles

  Bates, Alf

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

  Bean, R. E.

  Horam, John

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

  Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

  Huckfield, Les

  Roderick, Caerwyn

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Rodgers, George (Chorley)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Rodgers, Rt Hon William

  Boardman, H.

  Hunter, Adam

  Rooker, J. W.

  Booth, Rt Hon Albert

  Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

  Rose, Paul B.

  Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

  Jackson, Colin (Brighouse

  Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

  Rowlands, Ted

  Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

  John, Brynmor

  Sandelson, Neville

  Buchan Norman

  Johnson, James (Hull West)

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Buchanan, Richard

  Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

  Selby, Harry

  Butler Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Shaw, Arnold (llford South)

  Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Silverman, Julius

  Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

  Kelley, Richard

  Small, William

  Campbell Ian

  Kerr, Russell

  Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

  Canavan, Dennis

  Kilroy-Silk, Robert

  Snape, Peter

  Cant R. B.

  Kinnock, Neil

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Carmichael, Neil

  Lambie, David

  Stallard, A. W.

  Cartwrigh John

  Lamborn, Harry

  Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

  Clemitson, Ivor

  Lamond, James

  Stoddart, David

  Cocks, Rt Hon Michael

  Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

  Stott, Roger

  Cohen, Stanley

  Lee, John

  Strang, Gavin

  Coleman, Donald

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

  Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

  Corbett Robin

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

  Cowans, Harry

  Lipton, Marcus

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

  Crowther, Stan (Hotherham)

  Loyden, Eddie

  Tierney, Sydney

  Cryer Bob

  Luard, Evan

  Tinn, James

  Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

  Lyon, Alexander (York)

  Torney, Tom

  Davidson, Arthur

  Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

  Tuck, Raphael

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Urwin, T. W.

  Davis Clinton (Hackney C)

  McDonald, Dr Oonagh

  Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

  Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

  McElhone, Frank

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

  Dempsey, James

  MacFarquhar, Roderick

  Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

  Doig, Peter

  McGuire, Michael (Ince)

  Ward, Michael

  Dormand, J. D.

  MacKenzie, Gregor

  Watkins, David

  Dunnett, Jack

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

  Watkinson, John

  Eadie, Alex

  McNamara, Kevin

  Weetch, Ken

  Edge, Geoff

  Marks, Kenneth

  Weitzman, David

  Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

  Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

  Wellbeloved, James

  Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  White, James (Pollok)

  Evans, loan (Aberdare)

  Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

  Whitlock, William

  Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

  Mendelson, John

  Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

  Faulds, Andrew

  Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N)

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

  Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

  Moonman, Eric

  Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

  Flannery, Martin

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

  Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

  Ford, Ben

  Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

  Woodall, Alec

  Forrester, John

  Newens, Stanley

  Woof, Robert

  Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

  Noble, Mike

  Wrigglesworth, Ian

  Freeson, Reginald

  Oakes, Gordon

  Young, David (Bolton E)

  George, Bruce

  Ogden, Eric

  Gilbert, Dr John

  O'Halloran, Michael

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Ginsburg, David

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Mr. Ted Graham and

  Gould, Bryan

  Ovenden, John

  Mr. Frank R. White.

  Gourlay, Harry

  Palmer, Arthur

  NOES

  Beith, A. J.

  Sillars, James

  Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)

  Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Watt, Hamish

  Freud, Clement

  Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Grimond, Rt Hon J.

  Stainton, Keith

  Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

  Hooson, Emlyn

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

  Stewart, Rt Hon Donald

  TELLRS FOR THE NOES

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Thompson, George

  Mr. David Penhaligon and

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

  Mr. John Pardoe.

  Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

  Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  NUCLEAR INDUSTRY (FINANCE) [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session ('the new Act') to make further financial provision for and in respect of British Nuclear Fuels Limited ('BNFL'), the Radiochemical Centre Limited ('TRCL') and the National Nuclear Corporation Limited ('NNCL'), it is expedient that provision should be made as follows—

  (a) sums required by the Secretary of State for fulfilling guarantees given for BNFL
  1360
  or TRCL under powers conferred by the new Act to be paid out of money provided by Parliament, and consequential payments to the Secretary of State by either company to be paid into the Consolidated Fund;

  (b) the commitment of public finance to the two companies under sections 11 and 12 of the Atomic Energy Authority Act 1971 (Votes and the National Loans Fund) and under the new Act (Votes) to be limited as follows—

  (i) for BNFL, £300 million (or up to £500, million by order),

  (ii) for TRCL, £5 million (or up to £15 million by order),

  plus £1400 million (or up to £500 million by order) for guarantees given by the Secretary of State under powers conferred by the new Act in respect of payments in advance made to BNFL by its customers; and

  (c) payment out of money provided by Parliament of expenditure which the Secretary of State may incur with a view to or in connection with the acquisition for the Crown of shares in, or securities of, NNCL or any subsidiary of that company.—[Mr. Bates.]

  LOTTERIES
  Mr. Speaker: Before we turn to betting and gaming, I remind the House that on this issue the debate must be confined to the rules and restrictions laid down by the Statutory Instrument. A wider debate on the issue of lotteries would be beyond the scope of our debate.
  10.16 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Dr. Shirley Summer-skill): I beg to move,
  That the Lotteries Regulations 1977, a draft of which was laid before this House on 18th January be approved.
  I understand that with this motion we are to discuss the corresponding Scottish motion:
  That the Lotteries (Scotland) Regulations 1977, adraft of which was laid before this House on 18th January, be approved.
  The present position under the Lotteries Act 1975 is that certain charitable, sporting and other societies may promote lotteries subject, among other things, to the condition that the turnover of each lottery shall not exceed £5,000.
  When the Act is fully in operation that limit will be raised to £10,000 for a short-term lottery, £20,000 for a medium-term one and £40,000 for any other lottery. Briefly, a short-term lottery can be promoted weekly, a medium-term lottery can be promoted monthly and any other lottery can be promoted quarterly. The full operation of the Act will also permit local authorities for the first time to promote lotteries for any purpose for which they have power to incur expenditure under any enactment subject to the same limits that I have just mentioned as to the scale and frequency that apply to lotteries promoted by societies.
  The outstanding provisions of the Act cannot however, be brought into operation until the Secretary of State has made regulations under Section 10 of that Act, and in accordance with Section 18(2) of the Act such regulations shall not be made unless a draft of them has been approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.
  The Government have given careful consideration to the content of these regulations and to this end a consultative
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  document was issued last summer. Subsequently numerous and detailed comments were received by letter, and through deputations from hon. Members and interested organisations which I met. These were taken into account when the draft regulations which are now before the House were prepared.
  In a debate initiated by the right hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) on 4th August I said that the regulations would be prepared in a less restrictive manner than was proposed in the consultative document, and hon. Members can see that this has been done. In preparing the draft regulations we sought to safeguard the public from harassment in connection with the promotion of lotteries but on the other hand wished to avoid needlessly hampering requirements.
  I shall explain briefly the main provisions in the draft regulations. Draft Regulation 3 and the schedule propose requirements about the provisions which must be included in a scheme for the promotion of a lottery. These provisions have been kept as simple as possible, and in effect require the full council or the governing body of the society, as the case may be, to decide certain matters which ought to be decided by it and not by the person who runs the lottery on its behalf.
  Draft Regulations 4 to 8 propose restrictions on the sale of tickets or chances in a lottery. No lottery ticket shall be sold by or to a person under 16 years of age. This provision maintains the current position under lottery law. Sales in the street are prohibited except where the seller is in a kiosk. In this way, the passer-by is free from pestering by street sellers, but the person wishing of his own accord to buy a ticket may do so at a kiosk.
  Draft Regulation 6 prohibits sales in certain premises devoted to gambling for commercial purposes. The Government believe that it is right that those who have chosen to gamble in one way should not as a result of that choice be subjected to pressure to gamble in other ways. This Act will offer many and increased opportunities to sell lottery tickets in a variety of ways, and it was thought unwise to allow selling where there was virtually a captive audience of people already

  1363
  gambling. The Gaming Board is strongly in favour of Regulation 6.
  Draft Regulation 7 proposes a prohibition on sales by means of a vending machine. Draft Regulation 8 proposes restrictions on door-to-door sales by those such as rent collectors, meter readers, postmen or milkmen calling on business not connected with lotteries.
  Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: Will the hon. Lady explain the logic by which it is permitted to sell contraceptives by vending machine but not lottery tickets?
  Mr. Eric Ogden: That is a lottery!
  Dr. Summerskill: I am sure that I do not have to explain to the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) that contraception is not gambling.
  Mr. Robert Mellish: I want to ask my hon. Friend a serious question and not a silly, frivolous one. She spoke earlier about a captive audience. I think I understand that from the point of view of people in a betting shop, say. But what about a football club which may have a crowd of 10,000? What about a club like Millwall, the greatest that there is? It is doing very well. I want to get this clear. Cannot a football club sell all the lottery tickets that it can to its supporters?
  Mr. Dan Jones: Of course, it can.
  Mr. Mellish: I am not asking my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Jones). If I want his advice, I shall write to him and ask for it. I am asking the Minister. Will she put it on the record that a football club can sell all the tickets that it likes at a match, for example?
  Dr. Summerskill: When I said that, I was referring to Regulation 6, which would prohibit sales in certain premises devoted to gambling for commercial purposes. If my right hon. Friend looks at the regulations, he will see examples of those premises—bingo halls, amusement arcades, and so on.
  Mr. Mellish: Is a football club free to sell tickets?
  Dr. Summerskill: Yes, if it is not devoted to gambling for commercial purposes.
  Regulation 9 proposes requirements about the publication of the name of the authority and the date of the lottery in the case of a lottery promoted by a local authority. This regulation parallels the requirements in Section 9(1)(b) of the Act which apply in the case of societies.
  Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: Reverting to the matter raised by the right hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish), am I not right in thinking that it would not be possible to sell tickets on the premises of a football club because it would be in the open air? For example, tickets could not be sold by people going round inside a football ground. I think that that would not be lawful. Is it not correct that that would be regarded as a street or, if not, a public place? It is important to get this right.
  Dr. Summerskill: As it is so important to get it right, perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will allow me, if I catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, a second time, to answer that point when I reply. It does not appear to be included among the prohibitions in the regulations but I shall make quite certain about that for the hon. and learned Gentleman.
  It will have been noticed that the draft regulations do not contain certain restrictions on the sale of tickets in public houses and shops that were proposed in the consultative document. The draft does not set out restrictions on the advertisement of lotteries.
  Mr. Peter Hardy rose—
  Mr. Kevin McNamara rose—
  Mr. Hardy: My hon. Friend has referred to the sale of tickets in public houses and licensed premises. Is she aware that it appears to be the case that the small lotteries of the type that she describes are not covered by the regulations and that this is a cause of grave anxiety? This matter should be resolved urgently, and not left to the courts at a considerable cost of time and money.
  Dr. Summerskill: Perhaps it will be better if I proceed with my speech and

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  deal with the regulations as they are. I am sure that we shall come to that matter slightly later.
  Mr. McNamara rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady has said that she wants to complete her speech. Without having had any messages, I gather that there will be many hon. Members wishing to speak in this debate.
  Dr. Summerskill: To take up the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish), it is permissible under the regulations to sell lottery tickets anywhere in a football ground.
  The Government think that the limits imposed by Section 9(13) on the amount of the proceeds that can be appropriated on account of expenses, which cannot exceed 25 per cent., are sufficient to control undesirable or wasteful advertising techniques.
  In general, the regulations will provide adequate safeguards for the public against harassment. They will do so in a way that leaves adequate scope for the successful promotion of lotteries within the financial limits laid down in the Act, and in a way that gives neither societies nor local authorities any discriminatory advantage in the conduct of lotteries.
  After the draft lottery regulations have received approvel in both Houses of Parliament a commencement order will be made to set a date for the coming into operation of the outstanding provisions of the Lotteries Act 1975. That will also be the date when the regulations come into operation. An order prescribing the fees payable to the Gaming Board in connection with the registration of lottery schemes and with the lotteries promoted under those schemes will be made to come into operation on the same date.
  It will be necessary after the publication and making of these instruments to allow time for societies to prepare lottery schemes, for printers to make any necessary changes in the material and for the Gaming Board to get ahead with the registration of the schemes. In view of all the necessary stages, the Government think that the operative date for these instruments should be 1st May 1977.
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  Legislation on lotteries naturally tends to raise such questions as the proper scope for gambling, what bodies should promote it and what contribution might be made from the proceeds of gambling towards the support of other activities. These broader issues are now being considered by the Royal Commission on Gambling, although it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that while we are considering regulations that relate only to the area permitted by the 1975 Act. I have explained that the approval of the House of the draft is required before the Lotteries Act 1975 can be brought fully into operation.
  The draft regulations have been prepared after careful deliberation and wide consultation. The Government—
  Mr. Hector Monro: The hon. Lady appears to be reaching the end of her remarks without coming to the crucial issue, the answer to which we must surely know before we can proceed. That question is whether she has come to an agreement with the Gaming Board on whether instant lotteries are legal. The whole matter stands or falls on that point.
  Dr. Summerskill: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. At the beginning of the debate did you not warn the House that you would preclude discussion on instant lotteries or bingo-type lotteries?
  Mr. Speaker: The ruling I gave was to prevent a discussion on the whole wide issue of whether there should be lotteries. We are to discuss what is included in these regulations.
  Mr Maxwell-Hyslop: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Am I right in interpreting that ruling as meaning that the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) to the Minister as to whether instant lotteries are covered by these regulations is a permissible question for her to answer in this debate?
  Mr. Speaker: It is in order to ask whether that is within the regulations, but it is not in order for me to tell the hon. Lady whether she has to answer.
  Dr. Summerskill: Instant lotteries, or what are sometimes called bingo-type

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  lotteries, are lotteries in which a purchaser of a ticket can immediately ascertain, by devices such as tear-off flaps, whether his ticket would attract a prize. I have received many recommendations on this matter and I am aware that it has caused some concern among hon. Members on both sides of the House.
  The Gaming Board of Great Britain cannot register a scheme which is contrary to law. I understand that the Board was advised that some dummy instant lottery schemes submitted to it could conflict with the provisions of the 1975 Act. This was due to the fact that there might not be a gap of seven days between the dates when the winners were ascertained in lotteries held in successive weeks. Therefore, it would not be possible under the registration requirements to hold 52 lotteries in a year as the dummy schemes proposed.
  Mr Graham Page rose—
  Dr. Summerskill: This is a complicated issue and I should like to finish what I am saying.
  The Board is considering this matter further, and it may well be that in the outcome there will be no insuperable difficulties about the registration of schemes. I spoke to Sir Stanley Raymond, Chairman of the Board, on the telephone this morning, and he assured me that the Board intends to clarify the doubt that exists by making clear to everybody what it understands the law to be in regard to the registration of these schemes.
  The Board is taking legal advice and will come to a decision before the end of this month—which is well in advance of the Act's becoming operative on 1st May. I must state clearly that this is not a matter that can be dealt with in regulations under the Lotteries Act 1975, nor is it a matter on which it would be wise to attempt to legislate at this juncture when it may not be necessary to do so. Any such legislation might well create rather than solve problems. I have explained the problems about his own Bill in a letter to the right hon. Member for Crosby, who naturally is disappointed that his Bill was not accepted by the Government. But, as I have said, there is no point in legislating at the moment when it may not be necessary to legislate at all. It may be that the Gaming Board
  1368
  will not find any insuperable difficulty. It is considering the matter further and will let my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary know its conclusions.
  I have explained that the approval of the House for the regulations is required before the Lotteries Act can be brought fully into operation. The regulations have been prepared after careful deliberation, and I urge the House to approve them so that the Lotteries Act can be brought fully into operation.
  Mr. Speaker: I have to tell the hon. Member for Lambeth, Central (Mr. Lipton) that his amendment is out of order, but if he is lucky enough to catch my eye he will be able to make his point in the debate.
  10.31 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Mayhew: Our first reaction to the appearance of these regulations is to say "about time". The Lotteries Act 1975 received the Royal Assent about 18 months ago. It was a Government measure in its final form, having been taken over from my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page). One might therefore have hoped that the Government would put some steam into it and would have brought it quickly into force. But major parts of the Bill are still not in force because the Government have delayed for a year and a half in the drafting of the regulations. One wonders whether their hearts were in the job.
  It is bad enough that the consultative document was delayed until May of last year. That meant that the local authorities missed out on the season of classic fixtures for the autumn and winter 1975 and for the following spring. But we have had to wait for another eight months before the regulations were brought forward. So the fixtures have been missed again.
  Mr. Dan Jones: I do not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman should flog that one too much because I know personally that in the meantime the Minister has seen almost every sports organisation for consultations. That task could not be completed overnight.
  Mr. Mayhew: I have no intention of flogging it too much, but I have every intention of flogging it enough.

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  We had to wait for another eight months, and, although it is impossible to measure, the amount of funds which have been forgone is enormous. This is an intolerable delay, and I do not think that it would have occurred had the Bill been left in the hands of my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby.
  Our second reaction to the appearance of the regulations is that even now, after the delay, the Government have not got it right. We are talking about the sale of 25p tickets for lotteries got up by charities, sporting or cultural organisations or by local authorities. I shall concentrate on the sporting and charitable organisations, which the Government have said they want to help. That message came through in the debates on Second Reading and in Committee. The Government see the Act as a means of helping football clubs to meet the cost of making their premises safe, and this is necessary assistance.
  If the tickets can be sold in pubs, shops and the streets—and we are glad that under the draft regulations, contrary to what was in the consultative document, this will be possible—why should they not be sold in licensed bingo clubs? Regulation 6 forbids that. Yet under the old law—Section 45 of the 1963 Act—these charitable and sporting clubs and societies which the Government want to help were allowed to tap that market—a very rich market—as represented by the licensed bingo clubs. They were allowed to sell tickets for small lotteries with a maximum turnover of £750 in these clubs.
  The outlets have, therefore, been cut down by the regulations, by the Act which the Government said all along it was their intention to bring forward in order to help. What an achievement that is after 18 months of cogitation. Local football clubs and charities such as those that provide riding for the disabled or holidays for the disabled and rely, amongst other things, on licensed bingo clubs as outlets for their tickets will be denied that outlet. What is the justification for that? I hope that we shall be told. Why should these lotteries not have access to licensed bingo clubs?
  I cannot help thinking that if Home Office Ministers were more in touch with ordinary people they would know that 6
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  million people go every week to licensed bingo clubs. About 85 per cent. of them are women, and that is their principal outing of the week. I hear laughter from the Home Secretary who, I dare say, is not a habitué of his local working men's club, and if he is he should not be laughing. Women go to licensed bingo clubs for a modest gamble, and that is what they get. Why are they to be stopped from buying lottery tickets for charity while they are there? Why should it be all right up the road at the working men's club for their husbands to buy lottery tickets, and all right round the corner at the miners' institute, but all wrong for women who go to their bingo? How does the Under-Secretary of State, of all people, equate that with her egalitarian principles? Are such people not grown-up enough in the opinion of the Ministers? What is the explanation for denying them the right to buy 25p tickets for a charitable lottery in a licensed bingo club? If such people are not to be trusted, why are they allowed to buy a ticket with their liquor in a pub?
  The Under-Secretary says that the Government do not think it right that people who go to an establishment to gamble in one way should be brought under pressure to gamble in another way. What sort of pressure to buy a 25p ticket does she envisage in a licensed bingo club? If the reason is that the limit for prizes has gone up from £25 to £100, let the prizes be kept at the existing level for licensed bingo clubs. The Government can do this by a regulation under Section 12 of the Lotteries and Amusements Act 1976. We want a satisfactory explanation of why the outlets for sporting and charitable lotteries have been cut down. What was the basis under the 1963 Act that necessitated the cutting down?
  Why has this been done before the Royal Commission on Gambling has reported? I remind the hon. Lady of the terms of reference of the Commission which was appointed in October 1975. They were to inquire into existing law and practice relating to, amongst other things, lotteries, with particular reference to the adequacy of the restrictions imposed on the provision of facilities for different forms of gambling, including lotteries. Why is it that the Government went to the trouble of setting up a Commission to inquire into this and then

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  jumped the gun and changed the law on lotteries?
  What is wrong with selling tickets at betting shops or in a casino? We hope that we shall receive a better explanation than the one that the Under-Secretary advanced about people being pressurised, because that is a pathetic and rather insulting explanation.
  These regulations are certainly an improvement on the proposals in the consultative document that tickets should not be sold in pubs or shops or be advertised on television and radio. Goodness knows who drew that up. We refuse to accept that because the totally unacceptable has been withdrawn, the largely unacceptable is all right. We have now learned from the Under-Secretary that the Gaming Board has given warning that it is to adopt an interpretation of Section 8 and Section 16 of the 1976 Act that is diametrically opposed to the meaning of the Act that the Government gave the House. That is relevant to our debate because these regulations are made under Section 10, which says that it shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to consult the Gaming Board before making regulations.
  The Board says that weekly instant bingo schemes will not be possible for the reasons which the Minister has given. Does the hon. Lady not realise that such schemes account for £30 million of the £45 million raised by lotteries each year? If they are hit by the regulations and can be held only every fortnight or even less frequently, this will mean a catastrophic cutback in the advantages that the Bill is supposed to yield for charitable and sporting organisations. Such bodies will be faced with a diametrically-opposed interpretation from the Gaming Board. I do not criticise the Board for examining the legislation, but why have the Government not either taken the opportunity afforded by the regulations to put the matter beyond doubt or, if that is not possible for technical reasons, helped instead of hindered the simple and short amending Bill of my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby? We want answers to these questions.
  The response of the Minister to letters from my right hon. and hon. Friends has been that it is for the courts to say what the law is. That is a pathetic excuse
  1372
  from a Government who are responsible for legislation. Perhaps I should declare an interest, but time and again it is left to the lawyers to persuade the House to legislate clearly.
  Mr. Roy Hughes: Has the hon. and learned Gentleman not missed another point? What will happen to the people who transgress and sell or buy tickets? Are they to be classified as criminals?
  Mr. Mayhew: The hon. Gentleman has made an important point. It will be left to those people to test at their own expense, perhaps in the House of Lords, the interesting question whether they are criminals. This is because of sloppy draftsmanship by the Government, their failure to take this opportunity to make the matter clear or their failure to help the Bill of my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby.
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Is my hon. and learned Friend not being grossly unfair to the Minister? Surely the duty to inform the House of what the law is rests not with her but with the Law Officers, who are not present. Is it not their duty to be here and to tell us what the law is before we vote on the regulations? The Minister has been left bereft, as have the rest of us, of advice from those who owe a duty to the House and are not here to discharge it.
  Mr. Mayhew: I am sure that the Minister would be glad to get any help that she could; so should we all. However, the Government have had an opportunity of clearing up the matter and they have not taken it.
  We hear that the Gaining Board is about to send a circular to all the charities concerned giving its interpretation of the law. The Minister seemed to rely on that as a justification for not helping the Bill of my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby. This is another extension of government by circular from which we have suffered for far too long under this Government. It is for Parliament, and not for a statutory or non-statutory body, to say what the law is.
  Do the Government really want charities to put their funds at risk by taking a test case to the House of Lords to discover whether their instant-bingo

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  schemes are alright? Will the Government instruct the Gaming Board not to issue its circular, but instead legislate quickly to clear up this matter?
  Until we have the answers to these questions we must conclude that the last 18 months have culminated in a lost opportunity and a botched-up job.
  10.45 p.m.
  Mr. Marcus Lipton: I anticipated that my amendment would not be called, and for the sake of good order and discipline I shall address myself to the motion—which will enable me to say exactly what I would have said had my amendment been called. The Minister is asking the House to buy a pig in a poke. She said that in the next few weeks we shall have a ruling on the situation from the Gaming Board. The House should know what the Gaming Board has to say before it passes the regulations.
  I am in considerable agreement with the hon. and learned Member for Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew)—and I am not a practising lawyer. I gave up practice a long time ago. Now I only preach.
  It was made clear in the Lords that the Government had to see an enormous and detailed number of comments before issuing the draft regulations. I agree that they are drafted in a less restrictive manner than was proposed in the consultative document that was circulated in an undated form some time in the summer of 1976. Although the Government talk of careful deliberation and consultation, two organisations representing bingo clubs —the British Bingo Association and the National Association of Licensed Bingo Clubs—knew nothing about the consultative document until last November. They have had only since then to make representations to the Government.
  The millions of people who patronise bingo clubs throughout the country—and there are a large number in the borough of Lambeth—will be prejudiced by the regulations that the Government are asking the House to accept. Charitable organisations will lose a considerable amount of money if bingo clubs are not allowed to sell lottery tickets on the premises. They are forbidden to do that by Regulation No. 6.
  1374
  For example, the British Bingo Association, the President of which is Mr. Eric Morley of the Mecca organisation, raises large sums of money for charity. Much of that money comes from bingo games, the participation fees of which go to charity. About £2 million has been raised in that way in the last two or three years. It naturally views with horror the proposal to prohibit such lotteries in bingo halls.
  The Government argue that they do not wish to see people who attend bingo clubs being harassed by lottery ticket sellers. I should like to see someone try to harass any of the women who attend the bingo clubs in Brixton. They would give them short shrift. The Government will not protect the women of Brixton by prohibiting bingo clubs from selling lottery tickets.
  Charities will lose considerably if the regulations are passed. I have a note from Mr. Eric Morley, the head of the Mecca organisation, who says that it is running a monthly lottery in bingo halls, the entire proceeds of which are going to the Variety Club for children's charities. This in turn helps the Government, because some £50,000 has been donated for the bone marrow type machine at Westminster Hospital, and previous to that £250,000 was devoted to a chair in child psychiatry at Great Ormond Street. Last year Mr. Butlin put up £200,000 for a brain scanner at Great Ormond Street, and, previous to that, another £100,000 went to Westminster Hospital, and so on.
  I could cite many cases in which hospitals and charitable organisations would be severely prejudiced if Regulation 6 went through in its present form. I therefore ask the Government to reconsider this regulation and not to shelter behind the excuse that they want to protect the women of Brixton and Kennington who go to bingo clubs from harassment from odd people who might want to sell lottery tickets.
  I hope that the Government will reconsider this section of the scheme that they are now asking the House to endorse.
  10.51 p.m.
  Mr. Graham Page: These regulations are made under Section 10 of the Lotteries Act 1975, so I should

  1375
  like to refer at once to that section because it is an extremely wide section giving the Secretary of State extremely wide powers to make these regulations:
  "The Secretary of State may by regulations make such provision with respect to the promotion of society's lotteries or local lotteries as he may consider necessary or expedient."
  There is a following subsection that sets out certain paragraphs which can be included in such regulations, but it says,
  "Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2) above".
  We know that the Act is not yet in force. It has not yet been brought into operation. We need to wait for these regulations before the Act is brought into operation. We have heard tonight that the hon. Lady the Under-Secretary thinks that we need another three months, after an accumulation of 18 months' waiting for these regulations and for the Act to be brought into operation. The Royal Assent to the 1975 Bill was in August 1975. It took nine months for the Home Office to give birth to an ugly consultative document. It was so ugly that it caused tremendous protest among all those concerned. It took another nine months of gestation—
  Mr. Ogden: The right hon. Gentleman knows who its father was.
  Mr. Page: I do not know to whom the hon. Gentleman is referring. No one on the Opposition side of the House was the father of that consultative document. That came out of the imagination of the Home Office. It then took another nine-month period of gestation to produce the draft regulations. We are then told that another three-month period is needed before clubs and local authorities can take advantage of the 1975 Act, the advantage of having lotteries larger than they have at present.
  During that 18-month period, two football seasons have gone by, and all the money that could have been gained by the football clubs has been lost. Football clubs are being pressed to put safety precautions into their grounds, yet the Government will not let them earn the money required out of lotteries. The whole summer season for many local authorities, particularly those of holiday resorts, could have earned a lot of money for the relief of the rates out of lotteries. However, we are told that we have to wait
  1376
  for another three months for this Act to be put into operation.
  We must ask the hon. Lady to consider again and to bring this in much more quickly. There is no need for further delay. Normally when the House approves a draft order it can be brought into effect the very next day. I hope that we shall have some rapid introduction of the regulations so that the Act can come into operation.
  I should like again to refer back to the power under which these Regulations are to be made, and the very wide power of the Secretary of State under Section 10(2). It is true that the regulations as set out here probably come within the paragraphs in the following subsection. But there is one matter which could have been cleared up in the regulations which the Secretary of State has failed to do. What are commonly known as instant lotteries or instant bingo have been mentioned. I should declare an interest. I can say that over the period of 20 years no harm has come from what is known as instant bingo. I had something to do with its invention 20 years ago for Fulham Football Club. I have had an interest in it ever since. Now the Government are trying to kill instant bingo.
  Dr. Summerskill indicated dissent.
  Mr. Page: The hon. Lady shakes her head. She could have removed all this doubt by use of the powers of the Secretary of State under Section 10 (2), which gives him almost complete power. All he has to do is look at the definition of "date". Section 8 in effect says that there must not be more than 52 lotteries a year, and that one must not hold more than one a week.
  The Gaming Board, by an extraordinary interpretation of "date"—the Act says that the date is when the winners are ascertained—has said that every time one tears open that sealed bingo ticket which one gets at a football game, the date of the lottery is the date that one tears the ticket open if one happens to be the winner.
  The result is that the Board—it has said so—will refuse to register schemes for instant lotteries or instant bingo because its interpretation is that there will be hundreds of dates for one lottery a week, and each time a winner tears his

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  ticket open and finds that he has the corresponding number or has amassed numbers to his bingo card, that is the date of the lottery.
  I can think of nothing more stupid. I was so astonished that I sought legal opinion. I am sorry that the Law Officers are not here. I obtained a legal opinion from eminent counsel that the Board is dead right. I have been to the Board and have tried to argue it out with officials there. I was given a promise by the responsible official that the Board would decide one way or the other before we debated these regulations. I have asked over the telephone again and again if the Board has come to a decision and have been told that it could not—this was in the last few days —fulfil its promise before the debate. So we are left in this doubt.
  Mr. Dan Jones: I know the contribution that the right hon. Gentleman has made and that he is able and in earnest. Since he has had these deliberations with the Board, what precise reason could it have given before tonight's debate? If these people were so sure on the question he posed, could they be equally sure now?
  Mr. Page: The Board was taking legal advice. It received counsel's opinion a few weeks ago. It has deliberated on the matter again since then. In the last day or so, I have been told that it is still deliberating and trying to work out what counsel really meant, or something of that sort. That is why I say that the Secretary of State should have put the matter right in the regulations by using Section 10 powers. He had only to improve the definition of "date" in Section 16 and say that winners are ascertained on such and such a date, or to make a regulation that every lottery should state the date on which the winners are ascertained. The hon. Lady cannot deny that the Secretary of State has that power. He has power to lay down the rules for promoting these lotteries. He could easily say that every lottery must state the date on which the winners are ascertained. That would solve the whole problem.
  If the hon. Lady does not want to do it in these regulations, why is she blocking my Bill? I have given the Government a
  1378
  chance to solve the problem by quickly producing a Private Member's Bill. It has been blocked on two Fridays. Why? If she will not do it by regulations or legislation, will she tell the Gaming Board—
  Dr. Summerskill: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman appreciates that the letter that I sent him explaining in detail why the Government blocked his Bill and criticising some aspects of it would answer his rhetorical question to the House. I did not read out the letter that I had written him. I could have done, but I did not think that this debate concerned the rights and wrongs of the right hon. Gentleman's Bill. Instead of protesting ignorance of why this Bill was blocked and asking the House why it was blocked, I suggest that he reads the letter that I wrote him.
  Mr. Page rose
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: On a point of order. As the Minister has now referred to an official document—namely, a letter that she sent as a Minister to a Member —will you order her, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to lay a copy on the Table so that I may read it?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): I do not think that the hon. Member is on a winner this time. The rule does not apply to correspondence.
  Mr. Page: I refrained from reading to the House the letter which the hon. Lady sent me because I did not want to hold her up to ridicule. That letter merely made a number of Committee points about my Bill and said that the Government would not allow it through, that the matter had to be decided by the courts. As my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew) has asked, are we really to wait for this matter to be decided by the courts when it could be settled by regulations or by legislation? I do not mind which way is chosen but it could be done one way or the other without having to wait months.
  Does the Minister realise that because of this doubt being thrown on these bingo lotteries run by every Football League club the responsible clubs will decide that they can no longer carry on with them? About £30 million a

  1379
  year will be lost because the hon. Lady will not do something about it here and now.
  Mr. Rees-Davies: It goes a little further than that. My right hon. Friend has suggested that the courts can deal with it, but they can do so only if there is an issue before them. If the Gaming Board refuses to register because of this proposal, there will be no issue before the courts.
  Mr. Page: My hon. and learned Friend is perfectly right. I am sure that someone will find some way of bringing it before the courts, but that will mean another delay of 18 months before we get a decision because it will no doubt go through all the processes of appeal. This is not the way to treat the House. After 18 months, when both Houses of Parliament have passed an Act, we are left in complete doubt about whether most of the lotteries from which the sports clubs earn their money are legal. It is not as if the Minister did not know about this doubt months ago. We have all been pressing for it to be settled.
  I do not want to flog this, but it is a serious matter, not a technical, esoteric, or minor legal matter. Tens of millions of pounds are involved. Football clubs will fail if they cannot earn money as they have been used to do. They will not be able to afford to instal the safety measures which both Opposition and Government want to see.
  11.5 p.m.
  Mr. Dan Jones: First, I should explain that I know nothing about legal matters. Incidentally, I am damned pleased that such is the case. [Hon. Members:"Oh."] That is so, and hon. Gentlemen may pick the bones out of that.
  On 4th August last year we had a debate precisely on this subject. On that occasion the right hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) and I were practically the only Members present. We were then proposing improvements similar to those which have been announced tonight. I cannot help but express surprise and indignation that those who are present tonight were not in attendance on 4th August. [Hon. Members: "0h."] It is a fact. Hon. Gentlemen can go on
  1380
  bantering if they like. They can ricochet off me. I do not give a damn.
  May I claim your attention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for just a few minutes?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am always interested in what the hon. Gentleman says. However, he referred to these regulations being before the House on 4th August. I was inquiring to satisfy my memory whether that was the fact. I am advised that these regulations have not previously been before the House.
  Mr. Jones: I do not want to enter issue with you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It may be that these precise regulations were not before the House, but the issue that we are debating was before the House. That is the point.
  Having settled that, I go on to talk about legal affairs—although I know nothing about them. But the Home Office has legal people who advise my hon. Friend. [Interruption.] I wish that hon. Gentlemen opposite would control their stupid banter. While they are bantering, many clubs—not only soccer clubs, but cricket, rugby, and other sports clubs —are financially against the wall.
  Many hon. Members present tonight have addressed themselves to me on the question of sport, knowing of my involvement with these people, and begged me to do what I can, together with the right hon. Member for Crosby, to bring about a satisfactory solution. I wish that they would adopt the same attitude in the House as they adopt in the corridors of the House.
  I shall make known to the Football Association, to the Rugby Football Union and to the cricket authorities that, when it comes to getting the succour they need, their interests are made use of in banter by the Opposition. That has been the characteristic tonight. The only Opposition Member who has made out anything like a reasonable argument is the right hon. Member for Crosby.
  I should like to put two questions to my hon. Friend. Frankly, I thought that coming into the House tonight to debate these regulations would be a matter of form. I thought that we were going to endorse this proposal in little or no time and that, in consequence, clubs would be given the help that they deserve. But now I find that there is to be no

  1381
  mid-week participation. That will be harmful to soccer clubs. Those who know the clubs—I excluded the Opposition, because they do not know them; it is no use pretending that they do—realise that this aspect will be harmful to them. In the League and FA Cups we find that where there are replays in mid-week—the most lucrative part of the season for these people—they cannot hold lotteries. I am damned if I know what possible harm this can do. That is the first point. Why is it that we have to wait some three months?
  I should like hon. Members Opposite to consider this in practical terms rather than legal terms. There is a distinction because some of these clubs are going to the wall. But we would not think so, listening to the bantering of the Opposition tonight.
  Secondly, the right hon. Member for Crosby is very certain that his scheme is watertight. Apparently it involves no less than £30 million over one season. Surely that would be of substantial help to soccer, rugby and cricket clubs? If the application of the scheme is so easy, my hon. Friend should tell us tonight precisely why this scheme, with so many definite advantages, does not deserve the support of hon. Members on this side of the House.
  1 assume that hon. Members opposite will treat this matter as it deserves to be treated, in terms of sport in this country which has a tremendous therapeutic effect on our young people, notwithstanding the few young hooligans who spoil the game. Will my hon. Friend tell us precisely why the scheme of the right hon. Member for Crosby is not accepted by the Government and put into operation so that the people who need this help badly can get it as soon as possible?
  11.12 p.m.
  Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: The Home Secretary's right eardrum has nearly been split by the passion of the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Jones).
  Mr. Dan Jones: The hon. and learned Gentleman has never been poor otherwise he would know what it means.
  Mr. Rees-Davies: Bantering or no, over the last 18 months I would have been
  1382
  delighted to have the assistance of the hon. Gentleman in the pile of letters, which is now about a foot high, that I have accumulated with the hon. Lady and others in the Home Office pressing for the introduction of these regulations. There have been so many letters that it has been like confetti passing between us. With my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) we have pressed this almost month by month.
  Originally the Home Office was thinking along the lines of employing local authority civil servants to sell the lottery tickets and dealing with it by door-to-door house canvassing. It was felt that in some way they would come under the complete control of the local authority.
  But the Home Office was prevailed upon to recognise that there would be an appalling waste of public money if any public servants were involved in the selling of these tickets either for local authorities or for any other private lottery. Secondly, it was important to draw to the attention of the Home Office that householders would be appalled if there were to be canvassing door to door.
  The Home Office was right to recognise that we did not want the tickets to be sold in the betting office licensed houses. But the question was a very difficult one because of the general feeling that in some way it is all wrong to sell anything connected with gaming in a place where people can also get a drink. The Home Office was, therefore, apparently, opposed to the tickets being sold in public houses because it was thought that people under the influence of drink might buy a lottery ticket and in some way that was regarded as improper. All that prejudice had to be surmounted.
  Furthermore, it was thought quite wrong to sell tickets in kiosks or in shops, because it was felt that these were public places. If they were sold in clubs, it was felt to be all right. But in a public place, it would be wrong. Earlier in the debate the hon. Member for Burnley will have heard me support the right hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) and attempt to clarify my own mind about whether tickets could be sold on a cricket field or a football field. I thought that that would be permissible, and I was delighted when the Minister confirmed that. But again there was considerable doubt

  1383
  whether tickets would be allowed to be sold on a football or cricket ground—for example, inside the Canterbury cricket ground, where we have very important cricket occasions and where we would want to sell them.
  Nor is it only sport which is affected. The delay which has been occasioned is a grevious one of 18 months. I do not suggest that these proposals could have been implemented immediately. On Third Reading, I suggested that a period of six months was reasonable for canvassing views, for producing a consultative document and for inviting local authorities to reply to that document with their recommendations. But I do not accept that 18 months is a reasonable period. As I understand it, the consultative document laid before my local authority—the Thanet District Council—was received by it in October of last year, 15 months after the Act was passed. For some reason which I believe to be, in a curious way, mixed up with the Royal Commission on Lotteries, there was an intolerable delay which went on for months before finally the Home Office got into gear and began to act.
  As a result of the endless pressure from my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby and me, to say nothing of those associated with bingo clubs, Mecca and many other organisations in all parts of the country, someone in the Home Office finally persuaded the Government that it was not immoral or improper to sell tickets publicly either for a society's charitable purposes or for a local authority—that is to say, in shops and public houses, on cricket, football and rugby grounds and, indeed, in kiosks suitable for the purpose.
  At long last, subject to the one point about bingo clubs, which I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew) ought to have been included but are not, we have a satisfactory solution.
  But it is the duty of the Home Office to advise the Minister if there is a point of law which in its opinion raises an inherent conflict. I have no doubt, therefore, what the Department duly advised the Minister when it heard from the Gaming Board that there was trouble about instant bingo. If there was, and the Department recognised that the intention of Parliament was clear and that we in-
  1384
  tended to have instant bingo on a weekly basis, it was its duty to advise the Minister to bring in remedial and amending legislation. The Department failed in its duty to do so. There is no question about this. My right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby is right. It is not just a matter of blocking his Bill. It was the Department's duty and statutory responsibility to carry out the intent of Parliament before the regulations were laid.
  I greatly hope that the Department will do it. I do not share the opinion of my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby that it can be done in these regulations. It is my opinion that it cannot. Therefore, to that extent it is borderline whether it is in order. The matter should be remedied by the Home Office at the first opportunity because it is plainly the will of the House that it should be amended. I profoundly hope that that will happen.
  As a result of the delay I have lost the Minster Community Centre in Thanet, which could have been built by now, and the changing rooms at the Kenny Baker hockey ground, which many who have an interest in international hockey may know as a leading ground. In 12 months we could have made enough money to carry both schemes into effect.
  There is plenty of time to bring the regulations into force by 1st April. I agree that we need a few weeks, but it is not necessary for us to wait until 1st May. I hope the House will invite the Minister to bring the date forward by at least one month. Every month is valuable. We want to be able to sell tickets over the Easter period at the seaside resorts and other places, which could produce a first-class lottery. That would be a real boon. I appeal to the Minister to bring the date forward.
  11.22 p.m.
  Mr. Hector Munro: In rising. I apologise to the many Members who wish to speak, but we are reaching the final moments of the debate and I wish to sum up some of the points that have emerged during the debate.
  It stands out head and shoulders above everything else that the Government have made a thorough mess of this matter and have mishandled it just as badly as the Scotland and Wales Bill. It seems incredible that the Under-Secretary of

  1385
  State for Scotland should be laughing. The hon. Gentleman has been laughing all night. Does he not realise that this is a serious issue that affects Scotland as well as England and Wales? I hope that he will take the matter seriously. It could affect the hon. Gentleman's football club in his constituency of Stirling, Falkirk and Grangemouth as it could affect every other club in the football league.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Harry Ewing): I have been laughing all night because of the frivolous nature of the attitude adopted by the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends. I have been laughing at the way in which they have treated the debate.
  Mr. Monro: The hon. Gentleman is compounding his failure. My right. hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) and my hon. and learned Friends the Members for Thanet, West (Mr. Rees-Davies) and Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew) have spoken extremely seriously in the debate, as have some of the hon. Gentleman's colleagues. Many Labour Members have a guilty conscience tonight and that is the only reason that they have entered the Chamber.
  It is of the utmost importance that we have had a debate that has shown that the House is most dissatisfied with the evening's proceedings. I hope that the Government will feel that the regulations should be withdrawn and brought back when the Home Office has come to its conclusions following negotiations with the Gaming Board. Without that information the whole debate is null and void. When we bear in mind that the debate must finish at 11.41 p.m. and that so many Members wish to speak, that is obviously the right procedure to adopt.
  I press upon the hon. Lady the Under-Secretary of State the importance of speed in this whole matter and how the Government have let the House down like a ton of bricks, and more especially the sports clubs. The Minister responsible for Sport, who I am surprised has not joined us tonight, said in June 1975, nearly two years before the regulations will come into force,
  "The proposals of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary are very important, and they have been welcomed in football circles. The new Lotteries Bill substantially raises the turnover and the prizes of small lotteries, so it
  1386
  will become legal to conduct a small lottery up to a turnover of £10,000 a week."—[Official Report, 19th June 1975; Vol. 893, c. 1795.]
  The right hon. Gentleman was impressing upon the House how important it was to get this money into football.
  In July 1975 the hon. Lady said that in spite of the doubts that had been expressed, the provision of the Lotteries Bill would be a considerable help to the clubs. She added that the Government had the football clubs very much in mind in introducing the Lotteries Bill. The Government have taken nearly two years to introduce the regulations, which give clubs the opportunity to increase their financial reserves and to implement the Safety of Sports Grounds Act, which is being treated in a dilatory fashion by the Home Office and others who are concerned.
  The result of the delay has been that innumerable football clubs, voluntary sports clubs and other organisations throughout Britain have been unable to raise the finance which they need, at a time when they are severely affected by inflation. This goes for football clubs such as Burnley and Montrose, which are well represented in the House tonight.
  I appreciate consultation carried out with my hon. Friend the Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison) and myself on the consultative document and subsequently. There were some suggestions about the percentage of expenses that could be charged in covering lotteries. The key issue, which has been brought out so clearly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby and by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Thanet, West, relates to the instant lottery and to the reason why the hon. Lady has decided to take no action on Section 10 of the 1975 Lotteries Act.
  It is wrong for the Minister to give the impression that because these matters were not raised during discussions on the Bill, what has happened since is not the Government's fault. I think that the contrary is the case. It is the Government's duty— and it is the Government who had the advantage of the services of the finest draftsmen in the land—to see that any measure is drafted so as to cover one of the most important points—namely, instant bingo and the instant lottery.
  The Minister should withdraw these regulations tonight and bring the matter

  1387
  back to the House when a decision has been reached with the Gaming Board. If the situation is not clarified, the whole matter becomes complete nonsense. This is crucial to the debate.
  The local authorities have lost the opportunity of obtaining income through lotteries in the last 18 months. Charities have also suffered, as have sports clubs and other organisations. All these bodies have missed many millions of pounds because of the dilatory action by the Government.
  I hope that the hon. Lady will offer to withdraw the Bill and also will seek to clear some of the points made by my right hon. and hon. Friends. I hope that she will comment on the strange regulation that forbids the sale of tickets in bingo halls, betting shops and casinos. A person who is already in any of those places is surely unlikely to be corrupted any further, and the price of 25p per ticket sold in a casino will be peanuts compared with what might be won or lost there. This displays a restrictive attitude, and it is unnecessary in this legislation.
  I wish to make a point which has not been made so far in the debate, and it relates to the taxation of lottery profits. I understand that some tax inspectors are insisting on the payment of corporation tax.
  By and large this issue is straightforward and simple. These regulations are unacceptable to most hon. Members present tonight. Hon. Members on both sides of the House are interested in sports clubs of all kinds and charities gaining from this provision, but as a result of this debate they are not clear what will happen. The Home Office has rushed forward, after 18 months' work, with regulations that are not practicable. Therefore, the hon. Lady should ask the Minister to withdraw these provisions and to bring the matter back to the House when it is sorted out.
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I put it to you that pursuant to Standing Order No. 4(2)(b) when the hour for the close—11.30—would normally arise, you should excercise your discretion? The provision says that if the Chair
  "shall be of the opinion that …
  (b) because of the importance of the subject matter of the motion,
  1388
  the time for debate has not been adequate, he shall interrupt the business and the debate shall stand adjourned till the next sitting".
  I do not think that it is in dispute that the matter is of great importance. My right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) was given a positive assurance by the Betting and Gaming Board that its interpretation of the law would be given before this debate. Correspondence to my right hon. Friend which the Under-Secretary has not thought it right to put before the House has failed to convey that information. No Law Officer has had time during this debate—in other words, the time has apparently not been adequate—to present himself in the House to tell hon. Members the Law Officers' opinion on the instant lottery question. It is the duty not of a Minister but of a Law Officer to interpret it to the House. Therefore, I put to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that in the exercise of your discretion under Standing Order No. 4(2)(b) it would be in the interests of the House that this debate should be adjourned without the Question being put.
  Mr. Ogden: Further to that point of order—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Time is getting short and the Minister must reply.
  I am much obliged to the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) for having given me advance notice of his point of order. First, I must correct him. He is referring to the wrong Standing Order. It is Standing Order No. 3(1)(b) that particularly applies to the matter he is seeking to raise.
  I have given careful consideration to all aspects of the matter, even to the point of being rebuked by the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro). I was considering the question when the hon. Gentleman alleged that I was not listening to him.
  Having considered all the relevant aspects, I have decided that the Question will be put at the end of the debate.
  Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith: Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We are also debating Scottish regulations. Not one Back Bencher representing a Scottish constituency has had a chance to speak. We represent sporting clubs and football clubs in Scotland, but we

  1389
  have not had a chance to put our point of view or that of our constituents. The only Scottish Member to speak was my hon. Friend on the Front Bench, the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro). The Scottish Office Minister promoting the order has not had the grace to come and speak in support of it. In the circumstances, Mr. Deputy Speaker, surely you cannot possibly agree that the regulations have been properly debated, and surely the debate should be adjourned to another occasion.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have considered that aspect also. The only difference between the two Statutory Instruments is is that one refers to England and Wales and the other to Scotland.
  Mr. Harry Gourlay: Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The point just made by the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) is very valid. Would it not be in order for you to determine that the vote tonight should be purely on the English regulations and that we can have a further debate on the Scottish regulations?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: At the conclusion of the debate I shall put each Question separately.
  11.33 p.m.
  Dr. Summerskill: This debate has been dominated by the subject of instant lotteries. I am gratified that, with the exception of Regulation 6 concerning bingo clubs, there has appeared to be fairly general acceptance of the regulations, which is what we were here in the beginning to debate.
  Mr. Gourlay rose—
  Dr. Summerskill: I have very little time.
  Mr. Gourlay: I wish to intervene on the very point my hon. Friend is making. I wanted to refer to Regulation 8 and did not have the chance. If a member of a sporting club or the Labour Party or the Conservative Party happens to be an insurance agent, will he be guilty of a criminal offence if, after he has collected his insurance money from his client, he offers him a bingo ticket? If he goes out of the house and comes back a second time is he in order? It seems ridiculous.
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Further to the point of order that I raised with you previously, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I respectfully draw to your attention that the Standing Order to which you were good enough to refer me, No. 3(1)(b), says:
  "proceedings in pursuance of any Act of Parliament, save in so far as Standing Order No. 4…otherwise provides".
  That is why I drew to your attention Standing Order No. 4 and not Standing Order No. 3. That is why it was pursuant to Standing Order No. 4(2)(b) that I respectfully asked you when the time came to adjourn the debate.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I hope to be able to hear the Minister's reply. Standing Order No. 4 refers to motions for annulment.
  Dr. Summerskill: I must reiterate the point I made at the beginning of the debate. It is my legal advice—
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I cannot see anything in Standing Order No. 4 that refers only to annulments. The side heading is "Statutory instruments, &c. (procedure)". It says:
  "Except in such cases as the House may otherwise order…".
  It goes on to say—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Member is wasting time. If he looks at page 10 of Standing Orders he will see that I am right.
  Dr. Summerskill: Instant lotteries cannot be dealt with within these regulations. That is a view that has received the agreement of the hon. and learned Member for Thanet, West (Mr. Rees-Davies). Much as the House would like to deal with them, I cannot deal with instant lotteries within these regulations tonight. The Bill of the right hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) might not have removed such difficulties and seems likely to have created others and could have made it impossible to hold some lotteries on a weekly basis, as I explained to him in my letter. We are not here tonight to discuss instant lotteries. We cannot do anything about them within these regulations. I urge hon. Members to pass these regulations tonight in order that the rest of the Lotteries Act 1975 may be put on the statute book.

  1391
  There has been criticism of Regulation 6, which is concerned with bingo clubs. I have listened carefully to the criticisms. There is some feeling about this matter. If experience of the application of the regulations suggests that this restriction is causing difficulty to the various people who have been instanced, we shall consider whether any workable amendments to the regulations should be made.
  The subject of licensed bingo clubs is obviously causing a great deal of anxiety among hon. Members, particularly the hon. and learned Member for Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew). Although under the 1963 Act the turnover of lotteries generally may not exceed £750, under the 1975 Act and these regulations lotteries will be on a much larger scale. Because of that the Government think that there should be certain restrictions, as for example in Regulation 6, on where the tickets are sold.
  My reasons for including Regulation 6 are still relevant. We have a duty to control the way in which lotteries are run, and that is what the regulations do. That is a statutory duty which those who passed the Act wished the Government to exercise.
  I was pleased to note that, with the exception of Regulation 6, there was not
  excessive criticism of the regulations. Certainly I should like the date to be nearer than 1st May, but it takes time for societies to prepare lottery schemes and it takes time for the Gaming Board to register all the schemes. That cannot be done in the time that has been suggested. I have said 1st May as a result of careful consideration of what would be necessary to implement this very important legislation.
  I believe that we should welcome the regulations, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Jones) in a passionate and eloquent speech. We urge the House to approve the regulations so that the 1975 Act can at least be brought fully into operation. It will be welcomed by a large number of people all over the country. I hope that hon. Members will vote in favour of it tonight. This Act results from a great deal of hard work over a long time by hon. Members on both sides of the House. We are at last seeing the fruits of our efforts. I hope that those efforts will not be destroyed by the Opposition—
  It being one and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER put the Question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted Business).
  The House divided: Ayes 151, Noes 26.

  Division No. 60.]

  AYES

  [11.41 p.m.

  Anderson, Donald

  Davidson, Arthur

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Archer, Peter

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

  Hunter, Adam

  Ashton, Joe

  Dempsey, James

  Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

  Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

  Dormand, J. D.

  Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Dunnett, Jack

  John, Brynmor

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Eadie, Alex

  Johnson, James (Hull West)

  Bates, Alf

  Ellis, Juhn (Brigg & Scun)

  Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

  Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

  Evans, loan (Aberdare)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Faulds, Andrew

  Kerr, Russell

  Boardman, H.

  Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

  Lamborn, Harry

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Flannery, Martin

  Lee, John

  Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

  Buchan, Norman

  Ford, Ben

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Buchanan, Richard

  Forrester, John

  Loyden, Eddie

  Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

  Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

  Luard, Evan

  Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

  Freeson, Reginald

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

  Campbell, Ian

  George, Bruce

  Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

  Cant, R. B.

  Gilbert, Dr John

  McElhone, Frank

  Carmichael, Neil

  Gould, Bryan

  MacFarquhar, Roderick

  Clemitson, Ivor

  Graham, Ted

  McGuire, Michael (Ince)

  Cocks, Rt Hon Michael

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Cohen, Stanley

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

  Coleman, Donald

  Hardy, Peter

  McNamara, Kevin

  Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mages, Bryan

  Cowans, Harry

  Hart, Rt Hon Judith

  Marks, Kenneth

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Hooley, Frank

  Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

  Crowther, Stan (Rotherham)

  Horam, John

  Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

  Cryer, Bob

  Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

  Mendelson, John

  Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiten)

  Huckfield, Les

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

  Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

  Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

  Newens, Stanley

  Rowlands, Ted

  Ward, Michael

  Noble, Mike

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Watkinson, John

  Oakes, Gordon

  Shaw, Arnold (llford South)

  Wellbeloved, James

  Ogden, Eric

  Skinner, Dennis

  White, Frank R. (Bury)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Small, William

  White, James (Pollok)

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Palmer, Arthur

  Snape, Peter

  Whitlock, William

  Parry, Robert

  Spearing, Nigel

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Price, C. (Lewisham W)

  Stoddart, David

  Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Stott, Roger

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Radice, Giles

  Strang, Gavin

  Woodall, Alec

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

  Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

  Woof, Robert

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

  Wrigglesworth, Ian

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

  Young, David (Bolton E)

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Tierney, Sydney

  Roderick, Caerwyn

  Tinn, James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Rodgers, George (Chorley)

  Urwin, T. W.

  Mr. A. W Stallard and

  Rodgers, Rt Hon William

  Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

  Mr. Joseph Harper.

  Rooker, J. W.

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

  NOES

  Beith, A. J.

  Lamond, James

  Sims, Roger

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

  Buck, Antony

  Lipton, Marcus

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Canavan, Dennis

  McCartney, Hugh

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  Durant Tony

  Macfarlane, Neil

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Eyre, Reginald

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Farr, John

  Mayhew, Patrick

  Gourlay, Harry

  Monro, Hector

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

  Penhaligon, David

  Mr. Michael Latham and

  Lambie, David

  Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

  Mr. Fred Silvester.

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Lotteries Regulations 1977, a draft of which was laid before this House on 18th January, be approved.
  Motion made, and Question put,
  That the Lotteries (Scotland) Regulations 1977, a draft of which was laid before this House on 18th January, be approved.—[Mr. Harry Ewing.]:—
  The House divided: Ayes 149, Noes 28.

  Division No. 61.]

  AYES

  (11.52 p.m.

  Anderson, Donald

  Dunnett, Jack

  Lamborn, Harry

  Archer, Peter

  Eadie, Alex

  Lee, John

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

  Ashton, Joe

  Evans, loan (Aberdare)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

  Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

  Loyden, Eddie

  Atkinson, Norman

  Faulds, Andrew

  Luard, Evan

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

  Bates, Alf

  Flannery, Martin

  Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

  Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  McElhone, Frank

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Ford, Ben

  MacFarquhar, Roderick

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Forrester, John

  McGuire, Michael (Ince)

  Boardman, H.

  Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

  MacKenzie, Gregor

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Freeson, Reginald

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

  Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

  George, Bruce

  McNamara, Kevin

  Buchan, Norman

  Gilbert, Dr John

  Magee, Bryan

  Buchanan, Richard

  Gould, Bryan

  Marks, Kenneth

  Butlor, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

  Graham, Ted

  Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

  Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

  Campbell, Ian

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Mendelson, John

  Cant, R. B.

  Hardy, Peter

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

  Clemitson, Ivor

  Hooley, Frank

  Newens, Stanley

  Cocks, Rt Hon Michael

  Horam, John

  Noble, Mike

  Cohen, Stanley

  Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

  Oakes, Gordon

  Coleman, Donald

  Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

  Ogden, Eric

  Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

  Huckfield, Les

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Cowans, Harry

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Hunter, Adam

  Palmer, Arthur

  Crowther, Stan (Rotherham)

  Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

  Parry, Robert

  Cryer, Bob

  Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

  John, Brynmor

  Price, C. (Lewisham W)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Johnson, James (Hull West)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

  Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

  Radice, Giles

  Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

  Dempsey, James

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Dormand, J. D.

  Kerr. Russell

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Roderick, Caerwyn

  Stott, Roger

  White, James (Pollok)

  Rodgers, George (Chorley)

  Strang, Gavin

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Rodgers, Rt Hon William

  Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

  Whitlock, William

  Rooker, J. W.

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

  Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

  Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Rowlands, Ted

  Tierney, Sydney

  Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Tinn, James

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Shaw, Arnold (llford South)

  Urwin, T. W.

  Woodall, Alec

  Skinner, Dennis

  Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

  Woof, Robert

  Small, William

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

  Wrigglesworth, Ian

  Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

  Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

  Young, David (Bolton E)

  Snape, Peter

  Ward, Michael

  Spearing, Nigel

  Watkinson, John

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

  Wellbeloved, James

  Mr. A. W. Stallard and

  Stoddart, David

  White, Frank R. (Bury)

  Mr. Joseph Harper.

  NOES

  Beith, A. J.

  Lamond, James

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Latham, Michael (Melton)

  Stewart, Rt Hon Donad

  Buck, Antony

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  Crowder, F. P.

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Durant, Tony

  Mayhew, Patrick

  Watt, Hamish

  Eyre, Reginald

  Monro, Hector

  Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

  Farr, John

  Penhaligon, David

  Gourlay, Harry

  Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

  Silvester, Fred

  Mr. Dennis Canavan and

  Hunt, David (Wirral)

  Sims, Roger

  Mr. Hugh McCartney.

  Lambie, David

  Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Lotteries (Scotland) Regulations 1977, a draft of which was laid before this House on 18th January, be approved.

  COMMUNITY HOSPITALS
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Ashton.]
  12.2 a.m.
  Mr. Laurie Pavitt: I find it extremely disappointing that two and a half years after the Department of Health and Social Security issued its statement "Community Hospitals—Their Role and Development in the National Health Service", we have had no progress whatsoever. I understand very clearly that since that time we have had a situation of general economic and financial stringency, but I do not accept that as an excuse for delay, because in planning the development of hospitals and community services, and indeed in local government at large, it takes quite a time between the concept and the time at which the actual project finds solution in bricks and mortar.
  I blame the Health Service administrators. They tend to be hidebound with the past and entirely unimaginative about the future. This is not the first time that I have put forward this point of view in the House. The House will recall that I
  1396
  was very heavily involved in the National Health Service Reorganisation Bill in 1973. During the passage of that Bill I frequently aired my fears about what would happen as a result of the reorganisation—that the hospital administration, which was only one of the tripartite organisations, would become the Big Brother, and that the organisation would be dominated by hospital thought.
  However, even more than that, I was concerned at that time, and I am still concerned, with the fact that in the thinking of the administrators who were to be, and have been, handed over from the old hospital administration, there is a tradition of the big hospital, the teaching hospital and the district hospital, the centres of excellence, and all of these things tend to dominate what should be a community development in the provision of health care and health treatment.
  Hospitals have tended to be in groups, rather like monastries, inward-looking, self-contained, a world to themselves. The whole purpose of the 1973 Act and of the subject we are discussing—the development of urban community hospitals—was to change the mental climate and the way in which we gave health provision away from the inward-looking hospitals treating illness into a community service which would regard health and not illness as its predominant requirement.
  Thus, the plea in the circular of August 1974 was that there should be development of community hospitals as

  1397
  an integral part of the local area, a built-in two-way traffic where primary care and treatment for patients and others in need should move freely between treatment at home by the family practitioner, treatment in places like urban community hospitals, and, in acute cases, treatment in a district general hospital.
  What seems to have emerged in the last two and a half years, however, is that there has been no concept of the involvement of the people concerned. What is needed, and what was the whole aim of the Department in proposing the development of urban community hospitals, is that people should be involved. It was envisaged that they would be participating in actions which took place with regard to their own health services, and that there would be a National Health Service not for the convenience of doctors and administrators but for the purpose of serving ordinary people.
  The Secretary of State's document in August 1974 said:
  "This policy can only succeed if public understanding and co-operation is secured … Community Health Councils will be given full opportunity to express their views before final decisions are taken."
  That is one of the points which affect most community health councils, particularly my own. It concerns whether, before such decisions are taken, they are given
  "full opportunity to express their views".
  I want to draw attention also to the guidance given in other parts of the document. It says:
  "Where possible health centres and other group practice premises should be closely associated with a community hospital."
  It goes on to say that they
  "will attract help from voluntary organisations and individual volunteers and thus be closely linked with the communities they serve."
  On the question of size, the document says:
  "the normal range between 50 and 150 beds, plus day places and out-patients clinics"
  should be provided. It goes on to say:
  "Some existing hospitals can be adapted to serve as community hospitals—those which are sited where they are needed … they will take some of the load off district general hospitals. "… while taking many years to complete the national network, the use of some existing buildings may enable some community hospitals
  1398
  to be established early in the programme."
  I am seeking to follow the advice given by the then Secretary of State. As an example which could give a lead to the rest of the country, I look to my own constituency, where in Willesden we have all the basic possibilities mentioned in the Secretary of State's advice. I should be very proud if Willesden could be the first urban community hospital in the country developed entirely in line with these modern concepts.
  Although they are new, as long ago as 1963 the forward-looking borough which I serve—at that time the Willesden Borough Council—had this in mind. Accordingly, it adjusted its development plans in the vicinity of the Willesden General Hospital to include available land for a service in the heartland of a dense and socially deprived population. Pursuing this ideal—I served on the North-West Metropolitan Hospital Board at that time—in 1965 the hospital authorities spent nearly £500,000 on a new casualty department, a path lab, a boiler house and X-ray departments. In this development, I was fully supported in what I was doing by the leader of my borough council, at that time an alderman of the borough, my right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, East (Mr. Free-son), who is now the Minister for Housing and Construction.
  Instead of throwing that £500,000 of the taxpayers' money down the drain, a community hospital in my area could provide a number of services. Through rationalisation, unfortunately, my area has lost 250 acute beds. The problem could be ameliorated if some of the things I have in mind could be developed in a community hospital in the middle of the densely populated Willesden area.
  I should like facilities for general practitioners to provide a minor casualty service: there is a modem casualty department already there. I should like to see a general practitioner health centre with all the special services like chiropody, some provision for community dental services, facilities for day surgery, possibly a five-day ward for minor surgical work and beds for simple infectious illnesses like hepatitis, which do not need the elaborate and expensive facilities provided at Northwick Park, another hospital in my area.

  1399
  It is wrong that in my area of 250,000 people, in spite of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 no beds are available for the young chronic sick. They could be provided in the community hospital. It could also provide beds for chronic sepsis cases, arrangements for older patients to come in for two weeks while relatives are on holiday, a rehabilitation department and a preventive medicine unit, which could be the focal point for disseminating information to Brent and for stimulating the practical work needed in homes. It could provide free accommodation for voluntary organisations concerned with better environmental and social conditions in Brent. Already we have plans for more geriatric beds in Willesden Hospital and we need to retain them within the community context. Further out-patient facilities would relieve the heavily burdened Central Middlesex Hospital.
  Many other areas are in the same position as mine. They have had to cut back vital services for lack of cash. But in my area—I have recently obtained figures for the area health authority—we have 450 acres of spare unused land. Bearing in mind what can be obtained for an acre of land in London, 450 acres represents a considerable capital resource. In any commercial undertaking or industry that would be counted as an asset against which other capital expenditure could be secured. Instead of cutting back on needed services, that could be regarded as collateral to be developed in order to provide a community hospital and improve other health services.
  Why can we not do this in the NHS and thus plan more community hospitals against these assets? In particular, why can we not use this asset in Willesden not to cut back but to increase services in a modern way?
  Administrators generally, and in particular in my area, seem to be behaving like headlight-blinded rabbits and reacting to public expenditure cuts out of all proportion to reality and public needs. They seem to be obsessed by formulae such as "X beds per 1,000" and the nonsense that is contained in the abstruse mathematics which led to the first resources allocation working party's report. I think that everybody now realises that was a blunt instrument. It has done
  1400
  nothing for the socially deprived inner city areas or for areas such as Harlesden, Roundwood, Queen's Park and Kilburn where there is a high percentage of social deprivation which ought to have special consideration and an increase rather than a decrease of resources.
  There is a need for some improvement in geriatric services. One of the tragedies of the last Administration's separation of health from social services—one under health authorities and the other under local government—means that the whole development since Seebohm under social services departments of services to elderly people still living alone backed by the provision of incontinence pads, meals-on-wheels, home helps and Part 3 homes—not Eventide homes or homes for the elderly—the residential accommodation which enables people who have got on in years to retain their dignity with backing from the social services, is omitted from the calculations. The health services seems to have ignored the figures that one can give for that part of the equation. I presume that my local area health authority has some liaison with the social services department. However, the propositions which are being put forward make me doubt whether it has been effective.
  My plea is that we should put health services where they belong—close to the people that they serve—and that, as far as possible, we let the facilities and treatment be taken to the patient rather than meet administrative convenience. Indeed, facilities should be extended to people who wish to visit relatives but in Willesden have to undertake awkward journeys to do so.
  I think that the Department has made out a strong case for a complete change in the administration of the hospital services towards urban community hospitals. The Minister has stated that the action which has been taken at the Willesden Hospital is not irrevocable. All the facts and figures show that the Willesden General Hospital should become one of the first and leading urban community hospitals in the country.
  12.19 a.m.
  The Minister of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Mr. Roland Moyle): I welcome the prod which my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South

  1401
  (Mr. Pavitt) is giving towards the development of community hospitals by his Adjournment debate tonight. I note that there is no real difference in policy between my hon. Friend and the Government, although I can understand how he sometimes suffers from a feeling of impatience when he considers the problem. I note his anxiety to have the first urban community hospital in his area. I hope that he will see it before too long, although not quite precisely in the manner in which he envisages it.
  My hon. Friend made some penetrating remarks about the Resource Allocation Working Party and its relationship to urban deprivation. I can assure my hon. Friend that whatever might have been the position in the past, there will in future be no desire on the Government's part to overlook the urban deprivation problem in considering the redistribution of resources. Of course, what my hon. Friend says about the division between local authority social services on the one hand and hospital services on the other is a point that we have carefully in mind.
  Since 1962 it has been the policy of successive Governments to establish a national network of fully equipped and comprehensive district general hospitals to provide the focus of hospital services for their locality while backed up by community hospitals in supplementation to them.
  This idea is to replace the more fragmented hospital specialist services with, for example, separate hospitals for certain types of illnesses, which were inherited from the days before the NHS. The need for a district general hospital arises from the increasing interdependence of the various branches of medicine and the need to bring together the wide range of facilities required for diagnosis and treatment.
  It also arises from the need for permanent teams in which doctors and nurses work most efficiently. The concentration of specialties and services enables patients to receive the full range of specialist treatment they need and enables staff to make the most economical use of expensive equipment and buildings. This means that resources saved by not duplicating equipment can be used for other aspects of health care.
  1402
  To complement the specialist services concentrated in the district general hospital complex the Department's policy is that one or more community hospitals should be provided in each health district for patients who do not require the highly specialised services of the district general hospital. Most community hospitals will be provided by adapting existing small hospitals. They will generally have 50 to 150 beds and provide for a population of 30,000 to 100,000. As they will not provide the specialist facilities of the district general hospital they can be small and more local.
  I am sure it would be the desire on the part of the NHS to involve the local community as much as possible in support of the treatment services in these hospitals. For example, GPs would be able to carry on their practice in the local hospitals, and the more voluntary support they can get the better.
  Patients who do not require the specialist services on hand can be treated and cared for nearer to their homes. This, of course, would be important in rural areas, but I think the homely atmosphere of a small hospital is no less important—it may indeed be more important—in urban community hospitals than in a rural community hospital.
  My hon. Friend suggested a number of activities that might be carried on in community hospitals. Certainly we want to adopt a flexible approach. However, I am afraid that I cannot hold out much encouragement for some of the surgical operations being undertaken there, as my hon. Friend suggested.
  There are, of course, a number of small acute hospitals existing at the moment. Some of them are providing general surgical services which, if discontinued, could not, under present circumstances, be undertaken in associated district general hospitals.
  Therefore, it will be necessary for some community hospitals to continue to provide general surgical services until such time as alternative provision can be made at the district general hospital. This is likely to be the position for at least 20 years because it will be somewhere around the end of this century before the full scheme of district general hospitals and community hospitals is in

  1403
  full working order. But there will be full opportunity for general practitioners to carry out the sort of surgery that they might carry out at community hospitals.
  Mr. Pavitt: Is my hon. Friend aware that hernia and varicose veins, which are both cold surgery problems, could be dealt with adequately in the operating theatre of the kind of hospital that I have been discussing, and that the longest waiting lists in the district general hospital are for this kind of speciality? Given coordination with the district general hospital, it would be possible immediately to reduce the length of the long waiting lists for the treatment of these non-killing diseases which nevertheless are extremely unsatisfactory diseases of the human body?
  Mr. Moyle: Yes. I am sure that, so long as there is pressure on the resources of district general hospitals, there will be the provision of these surgical services to some extent in community hospitals. But the best advice is that surgery should be undertaken with a full range of equipment and appropriate surgical teams with back-up nursing. In the long run, we must envisage a situation where, apart from general practitioner surgery, there will be a move to the district general hospitals for the main surgical provision in our communities.
  The nature of the community hospitals will mean that a high proportion of the patients in them will be elderly, bearing in mind that about one-half of all hospital patients are elderly, and the patients in these hospitals will be there for longer rather than shorter stays as would be the case with district general hospitals. The aim is that patients of all ages—excluding children—may be admitted to community hospitals or transferred to them after treatment at the district general hospitals until they are ready to go home.
  Community hospitals are expected to provide active treatment and rehabilitation for all patients according to their conditions, and there should be a continuous flow of admissions and discharges which should contribute to the high moral of patients and staff. But, again, highly specialist in-patient facilities will not be provided, although out-patient clinics in some acute specialities will be held at some community hospitals.
  1404
  In all that I am saying, of course, we should not vitiate a flexible approach to the provision of community hospitals, and obviously we shall endeavour to adopt that approach. One of the important factors is that, in moving towards a rationalisation of services along these lines, there is a need to bring the community along with the adjustments, as I have suggested. In my hon. Friend's area especially, it is important to bear in mind the consultation provisions which we feel should be followed in carrying out this reorganisation, and it might therefore be worth while, from my hon. Friend's point of view, setting out exactly what we have in mind.
  First, the health authority should produce a consultation document giving reasons for the proposals, setting them in the context of wider planning, evaluating alternatives, and considering implications for patients and staff affected.
  Secondly, community health councils, local authorities, staff and other interests concerned should be given three months to comment. Local Members of Parliament should be informed and a Press statement issued.
  Thirdly, the area health authority should produce its observations and conclusions on comments received, and seek the views of the community health councils concerned on all this material. If the community health council does not agree to a proposed closure or change of use, it should produce constructive counter-proposals.
  Fourthly, if agreement cannot be reached between the community health council and the area health authority, the matter is referred to the regional health authority, which may decide in favour of the community health council's counter-proposals or, failing that, refer the matter to the Secretary of State for his final decision. The Secretary of State, of course, will consult local interests and fully inform himself of all the local implications before deciding what to do.
  All this means that the community health councils have a key and powerful rôle in the procedures for re-organisation, and I hope that the public will realise this and make full use of them. So far as we can see at this stage the public are making full use of the powers given to the community health councils. The

  1405
  councils themselves are being brought into the consultative procedure very fully and are playing a leading rôle. I hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend will realise that the Government have done a great deal to ensure that the community is involved with the emergence of the community hospitals, especially in the urban areas.
  My hon. Friend referred to a substantial amount of land owned by the hospital service in his area—namely, 450 acres. He wondered why it has not been exploited by the National Health Service. It is the deliberate policy that land held by the hospital services, when it is surplus to the use of the Nation Health Service, be sold and that a proportion of the funds—the funds that used to go entirely to the Treasury in the old days—stay within the region to be used by the region. I have been trying to discover the proportion but I cannot satisfy my hon. Friend directly tonight. His area will have to fight for some share or por
  1406
  tion of the funds, but at least the situation is better. We are directing our attention to resolving the problem to which my hon. Friend drew attention.
  My hon. Friend drew my attention yet again to a letter I wrote him on the future of one of the hospitals in his area. I do not wish to retract any words that I used in a letter to my hon. Friend. I stand by them in respect of the future of the hospital and its reopening. Certainly it is not an irrevocable closure that has taken place, but I reiterate that to reopen it and to get it under way again would be difficult and I—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock on Tuesday evening, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at twenty-eight minutes to One o'clock.