HC Deb 01 November 1976 vol 918 cc1100-8

Motion made, and Question proposed, That no person not being a member of the Committee shall be present during any of the proceedings of the Committee unless required by the Committee to be present for the purposes of their inquiry:—[The Prime Minister.]

Amendment proposed, to leave out from 'That' to end of the Question and add instead thereof, the Committee shall conduct its proceedings in public:".—[Mr. Skinner.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 35, Noes 256.

Division No. 357.] AYES [10.01 p.m.
Canavan, Dennis Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Sedgemore, Brian
Clemitson, Ivor Lewis, Arthur (Newham N) Skinner, Dennis
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Litterick, Tom Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) McDonald, Dr Oonagh Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
Evans, John (Newton) Maynard, Miss Joan Tierney, Sydney
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Mikardo, Ian Welsh, Andrew
Hatton, Frank Ogden, Eric Wigley, Dafydd
Heffer, Eric S. Parry, Robert Wise, Mrs Audrey
Hooley, Frank Penthailgon, David Woof, Robert
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Price, C. (Lewisham W)
Kerr, Russell Reid, George TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Lamond, James Richardson, Miss Jo Mr. J. W. Rooker and
Latham, Arthur (Paddington) Roberts, Gwllym (Cannock) Mr. John Lee.
NOES
Anderson, Donald Buck, Antony Corrie, John
Archer, Peter Budgen, Nick Cox, Thomas (Tooting)
Armstrong, Ernest Bulmer, Esmond Cryer, Bob
Arnold, Tom Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Cunningham, G. (Islington S)
Ashton, Joe Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Dalyell, Tam
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Campbell, Ian Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Baker, Kenneth Carlisle, Mark Deakins, Eric
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Carmichael, Neil Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)
Bates, Alf Cartwright, John Dean, Paul (N Somerset)
Beith, A. J. Chalker, Mrs Lynda de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Dell, Rt Hon Edmund
Benyon, W. Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Dodsworth, Geoffrey
Berry, Hon Anthony Cockcroft, John Doig, Peter
Biffen, John Cocks, Rt Hon Michael Dormand, J. D.
Biggs-Davison, John Cohen, Stanley Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Boscawen, Hon Robert Coleman, Donald Drayson, Burnaby
Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) Concannon, J. D. Duffy, A. E. P.
Bray, Dr Jeremy Conlan, Bernard Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Brocklebank-Fowler, C. Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Cope, John Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Corbett, Robin Emery, Peter
English, Michael Loveridge, John Scott-Hopkins, James
Faulds, Andrew Luard, Evan Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)
Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles McAdden, Sir Stephen Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)
Fookes, Miss Janet McCartney, Hugh Shelton, William (Streatham)
Ford, Ben McElhone, Frank Shersby, Michael
Fox, Marcus Macfarlane, Nell Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) MacFarquhar, Roderick Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)
Freud, Clement MacGregor, John Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Fry, Peter McGuire, Michael (Ince) Stlverman, Julius
Gardiner, George (Reigate) Maclennan, Robert Skeet, T. H. H.
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) Small, William
Ginsburg, David Mallalieu, J. P. W. Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)
Golding, John Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Speed, Keith
Goodhew, Victor Mather, Carol Spence, John
Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Mawby, Ray Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)
Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Gray, Hamish Mayhew, Patrick Spriggs, Leslie
Grieve, Percy Mendelson, John Stallard, A. W.
Grimond, Rt Hon J. Meyer, Sir Anthony Stanbrook, Ivor
Grist, Ian Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Stanley, John
Grylls, Michael Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Hall, Sir John Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)
Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Miscampbell, Norman Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Molyneaux, James Stoddart, David
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Montgomery, Fergus Stradling Thomas, J.
Havers, Sir Michael Moore, John (Croydon C) Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Hayhoe, Barney More, Jasper (Ludlow) Tebbit, Norman
Heseltine, Michael Morgan, Geraint Temple-Morris, Peter
Holland, Philip Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Thatcher Rt Hon Margaret
Hooson Emlyn Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Thompson, George
Horam, John Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King
Howell, David (Guildford) Neave, Airey Tomlinson, John
Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham,Sm H) Nelson, Anthony Torney, Tom
Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Neubert Michael Urwin, T. W.
Huckfield, Les Newton, Tony Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Hughes, Rt Hon c. (Anglesey) Oakes Gordon Viggers, Peter
Hunt, John (Bromley) Onslow, Cranley Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)
Hunter, Adam Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Wakeham, John
Hutchison, Michael Clark Owen, Rt Hon Dr David Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) Paisley, Rev Ian Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)
James, David Palmer, Arthur Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Janner, Greville Park, George Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek
Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&Wdf'd) Parker, John Wall, Patrick
Jessel, Toby Parkinson, Cecil Ward, Michael
John, Brynmor Pavitt, Laurie Watkins, David
Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Perry, Ernest Watkinson, John
Jones, Barry (East Flint) Peyton, Rt Hon John Watt, Hamish
Judd, Frank Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch Weatherill, Bernard
Kaufman, Gerald Radice, Giles Wells, John
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) White, Frank R. (Bury)
King, Evelyn (South Dorset) Rees-Davies, W. R. White, James (Pollock)
Knight, Mrs Jill Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) Whitlock, William
Knox, David Ridley, Hon Nicholas Wiggin, Jerry
Lamborn, Harry Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Lamont, Norman Roberts, (Michael (Cardiff NW) Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)
Lawrence, Ivan Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Lawson, Nigel Roderick, Caerwyn Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Le Marchant, Spencer Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)
Lester, Jim (Beeston) Roper, John Woodall, Alec
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Lipton, Marcus Rowlands, Ted Mr. Joseph Harper and
Lloyd, Ian Ryman, John Mr. Ted Graham.
Lomas, Kenneth

Question accordingly negatived.

Mr. Speaker

Before I put the next Question, I should like to say to the House that I accepted the last amendment with the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) standing in the Aisle. I want the House to know that in future I shall not accept any motions or amendments proposed unless hon. Members are standing in their places.

Main Question put and agreed to.

Ordered, That no person not being a member of the Committee shall be present during any of the proceedings of the Committee unless required by the Committee to be present for the purposes of their inquiry.

Motion made, and Question put, 'That no witness summoned to appear before the Committee shall claim Crown Privilege as a justification for refusing to answer questions asked by the Committee:'.—[Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop.]

The House divided: Ayes 45. Noes 143.

Division No. 358.] AYES 10.13 p.m.
Allaun, Frank Lamond, James Sedgemore, Brian
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Latham, Arthur (Paddington) Skinner, Dennis
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Lawrence, Ivan Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Canavan, Dennis Lee, John Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Litterick, Tom Thompson, George
Clemitson, Ivor McDonald, Dr Oonagh Tierney, Sydney
Drayson, Burnaby Maynard, Miss Joan Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Meyer, Sir Anthony Watt, Hamish
Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Welsh, Andrew
Evans, John (Newton) Paisley, Rev Ian Wigley, Dafydd
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Penhaligon, David Wise, Mrs Audrey
Hatton, Frank Reid, George Woof, Robert
Heffer, Eric S. Richardson, Miss Jo
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Jessel, Toby Rooker, J. W. Mr. Arthur Lewis and
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop
Kerr, Russell
NOES
Anderson, Donald Hooson, Emlyn Parker, John
Archer, Peter Horam, John Parry, Robert
Armstrong, Ernest Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham,Sm H) Pavitt, Laurie
Ashton, Joe Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Perry, Ernest
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Huckfield, Les Price, C. (Lewisham W)
Bates, Alf Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) Radice, Giles
Beith, A. J. Hunter, Adam Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Hutchison, Michael Clark Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) Robinson, Geoffrey
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) Roderick, Caerwyn
Campbell, Ian James, David Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)
Carlisle, Mark Janner, Greville Roper, John
Cartwright, John John, Brynmor Rowlands, Ted
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Ryman, John
Cohen, Stanley Jones, Barry (East Flint) Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)
Coleman, Donald Judd, Frank Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)
Concannon, J. D. Kaufman, Gerald Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Conlan, Bernard Lamborn, Harry Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)
Corbett, Robin Lester, Jim (Beeston) Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Silverman, Julius
Cryer, Bob Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)
Cunningham, G. (Islington S) Lipton, Marcus Spriggs, Leslie
Dalyell, Tarn Lomas, Kenneth Stallard, A. W.
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Luard, Evan Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Deakins, Eric McCartney, Hugh Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) McElhone, Frank Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey MacFarquhar, Roderick Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
Dell, Rt Hon Edmund McGuire, Michael (Ince) Tomlinson, John
Doig, Peter Maclennan, Robert Torney, Tom
Dormand, J. D. Mallalieu, J. P. W. Urwin, T. W.
Duffy, A. E. P. Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Mawby, Ray Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)
English, Michael Mikardo, Ian Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Ward, Michael
Faulds, Andrew Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Watkins, David
Ford, Ben Miscampbell, Norman Watkinson, John
Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) Molloy, William White, Frank R. (Bury)
Freud, Clement Morgan, Geraint White, James (Pollock)
Ginsburg, David Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Whitlock, William
Golding, John Morris, Charles R, (Openshaw) Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)
Graham, Ted Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Gray, Hamish Neubert, Michael Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Grimond, Rt Hon J. Oakes, Gordon Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)
Hamilton, James (Sothwell) Ogden, Eric Woodall, Alec
Harper, Joseph Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Owen, Rt Hon Dr David TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Palmer, Arthur Mr. John Ellis and
Hooley, Frank Park, George Mr. David Stoddart.

Question accordingly negatived.

Motion made, and Question put, 'That the Committee shall at their discretion sit in public if they consider that at any stage of the inquiry the requirements of justice

or of the public interest requires them to do so notwithstanding any of the foregoing:'.— [Mr. David Steel.]

The House divided: Ayes 63. Noes 219.

Division No. 359.] AYES [10.23 p.m.
Abse, Leo Bean, R. E. Canavan, Dennis
Allaun, Frank Bidwell, Sydney Clemitson, Ivor
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Corbett, Robin
Cunningham, G. (Islington S) Litterick, Tom Spearing, Nigel
English, Michael McDonald, Dr Oonagh Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)
Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) Mallalieu, J. P. W. Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Maynard, Miss Joan Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
Evans, John (Newton) Mikardo, Ian Thompson, George
Garrell, W. E. (Wallsend) Ogden, Eric Tierney, Sydney
Grimond, Rt Hon J. Paisley, Rev Ian Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)
Hatton, Frank Parry, Robert Watt, Hamish
Heffer, Eric S. Pavitt, Laurie Welsh, Andrew
Hooley, Frank Penhaligon, David Whitlock, William
Hooson, Emlyn Reid, George Wigley, Dafydd
Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Richardson, Miss Jo Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Hughes, Roy (Newport) Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) Wise, Mrs Audrey
Hunt, John (Bromley) Robinson, Geoffrey Woof, Robert
Kerr, Russell Rooker, J. W.
Lamond, James Sedgemore, Brian TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Latham, Arthur (Paddington) Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) Mr. A. J. Beith and
Lee, John Skinner, Dennis Mr. Stephen Ross.
Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)
NOES
Anderson, Donald Fry, Peter Mayhew, Patrick
Archer, Peter Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) Mendelson, John
Armstrong, Ernest Ginsburg, David Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Arnold, Tom Golding, John Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)
Ashton, Joe Goodhew, Victor Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Miscampbell, Norman
Baker, Kenneth Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Molyneaux, James
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Gray, Hamish Moore, John (Croydon C)
Bates, Alf Grieve, Percy More, Jasper (Ludlow)
Bennell, Dr Reginald (Fareham) Grist, Ian Morgan, Geraint
Benyon, W. Grylls, Michael Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Berry, Hon Anthony Hall, Sir John Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Bitten, John Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)
Biggs-Davison, John Harper, Joseph Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King
Boscawen, Hon Robert Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Neave, Airey
Bray, Dr Jeremy Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Nelson, Anthony
Brocklebank-Fowler, C. Havers, Sir Michael Neubert, Michael
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Hayhoe, Barney Oakes, Gordon
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Holland, Philip Onslow, Cranley
Buck, Antony Horam, John Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Budgen, Nick Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham,Sm H) Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Bulmer, Esmond Huckfield, Les Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) Palmer, Arthur
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Hunter, Adam Park, George
Campbell, Ian Hutchison, Michael Clark Parker, John
Carlisle, Mark Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) Perry, Ernest
Cartwright, John Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) Peyton, Rt Hon John
Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) James, David Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Janner, Greville Radice, Giles
Cockcrott, John Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael Jessel, Toby Rees-Davies, W. R.
Cohen, Stanley John, Brynmor Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)
Coleman, Donald Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Concannon, J. D. Jones, Barry (East Flint) Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)
Conlan, Bernard Judd, Frank Roberta, Wyn (Conway)
Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) Kaufman, Gerald Roderick, Caerwyn
Cope, John Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)
Corrie, John King, Evelyn (South Dorset) Roper, John
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Knox, David Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)
Cryer, Bob Lamborn, Harry Rowlands, Ted
Dalyell, Tarn Lamont, Norman Ryman, John
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Lawrence, Ivan Scott-Hopkins, James
Deakins, Eric Lawson, Nigel Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Le Marchant, Spencer Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)
Dean, Paul (N Somerset) Lester, Jim (Beeston) Shersby, Michael
de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Dell, Rt Hon Edmund Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)
Dodsworth, Geoffrey Lipton, Marcus Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Doig, Peter Lloyd, Ian Silverman, Julius
Dormand, J. D. Lomas, Kenneth Skeet, T. H. H.
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Loveridge, John Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)
Drayson, Burnaby Luard, Evan Speed, Keith
Duffy, A. E. P. Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) Spence, John
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) McCartney, Hugh Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)
Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) McElhone, Frank Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Emery, Peter Macfarlane, Nell Spriggs, Leslie
Faulds, Andrew MacFarquhar, Roderick Stallard, A. W.
Fisher, Sir Nigel MacGregor, John Stanbrook, Ivor
Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) McGuire, Michael (Ince) Stanley, John
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Maclennan, Robert Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Fookes, Miss Janet Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Stoddart, David
Ford, Ben Mather, Carol Stradling Thomas, J.
Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) Mawby, Ray Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Freud, Clement Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Tebbit, Norman
Temple-Morris, Peter Walker, Terry (Kingswood) Wiggin, Jerry
Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)
Tomlinson, John Wall, Patrick Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Torney, Tom Ward, Michael Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Urwin, T. W. Watkins, David Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)
Vaughan, Dr Gerard Watkinson, John Woodall, Alec
Viggers, Peter Weatherill, Bernard
Wakeham, John Wells, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Walder, David (Clitheroe) White, Frank R. (Bury) Mr. John Ellis and
Walker, Harold (Doncaster) White, James (Pollok) Mr. Ted Graham.
Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)
Question accordingly negatived.
Ordered,
That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House until the end of this Parliament.—[The Prime Minister.]