§ Mr. James Prior (Lowestoft)I beg to move Amendment No. 48, in page 19, line 23, at end insert:
'or a trade dispute in a nationalised industry'.We had a long discussion on this clause and on similar amendments in Committee. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that employers who are completely helpless to stop crippling industrial action in the public sector should not be forced to make guarantee payments due to short-time working caused by that action.We have had many examples of this problem in recent years. The legislation, as it stands, would mean that in the event of, say, a national rail strike, a partial or total shutdown of power caused by a dispute in the coal mines, the gas or electricity supply industries, an employer in a totally unrelated industry, who is not a party to the dispute and has no say in the negotiations but is already suffering from lost orders and production, would have to make guarantee payments to his employees although, through no fault of his own, he has no work for them. This seems monstrously unfair.
This is yet another instance where this legislation, in attempting to help work people, may stop the best provision being made. By imposing uniform statutory requirements, it will hinder voluntary negotiations which are already undertaken in many industries to make 258 guaranteed weekly payments appropriate to their circumstances.
The Opposition have always argued that if collective bargaining means anything at all, it certainly means bargaining about this kind of issue and that it is better left to negotiations conducted between employers and unions. But if, on occasions such as these, there is to be an obligation falling on employers, we believe that it will be more suitable if the State is made responsible for these matters. The State, through the social security system, should foot the bill.
This is another instance where the onus has been placed on employers at a time when they cannot afford this kind of imposition. The Financial Times, in a leading article some weeks ago, reported:
If the economy were expanding, with business in a confident mood and price rises well under control, the case for implementing measures of this kind would be extremely strong; the only reasonable argument in such circumstances could be about whether they should be introduced piecemeal in response to collective bargaining procedures, or as a wholesale legislative package. In present circumstances the argument must be about their contribution to inflation; if the economy is forced by law to swallow all this at one go its present malaise may be worsened.We believe that it would be better and more suitable if the negotiations which are already carried out between unions and employers were allowed to continue. We also believe that where a strike takes place or there is a dispute in a nationally owned industry the State, being the employer, should foot the bill for the guaranteed weekly payments. It is monstrously unfair to put this additional imposition arbitrarily and by statute on employers at a time when they are already facing considerable difficulties in trying to control inflation and keep employment going. Therefore, we have tabled this amendment. It follows closely the powerful argument which we deployed in Committee.
§ Mr. John FraserThe right hon. Gentleman's arguments seem to be about the principle of guarantee payments and not about whether such payments should be paid when a dispute flows from a disruption in a nationalised industry. The argument on principle was discussed on Second Reading and at great length in Committee. I must say to the right hon. Gentleman that on the general principle 259 we must agree to differ. We believe that it is right to make the advances in terms of guarantee payments to workers that are provided in the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman may disagree about that, but that is the matter which has been discussed. I think that the principle has already been decided upon.
I turn to the particularity of the amendment. If the amendment were accepted it would have a number of effects which would be illogical and unjustifiable. The reference to nationalised industries is a discriminatory reference which cannot possibly be supported. On the basis of the amendment, if someone's works were disrupted because of a dispute at British Leyland, the people outside who would lose a day's work as a result would receive no benefit. However, if the dispute were to take place at Chryslers, other workers would receive benefit. If there were a dispute at a nationalised steel mill there would be no benefit for those disrupted, but benefit would be payable if the dispute were to take place at a private foundry or mill. If there were a dispute at British Airways benefit would be denied, but if there were a dispute at British Caledonian Airways it would be available. I believe that that is illogical and an unjustifiable distinction.
The amendment would mean that whether someone received guarantee payment would be decided on capricious and illogical grounds. I submit that there is no case for drawing a distinction between disputes in nationalised industries and disputes outside. Further, the amount of benefit that may be paid amounts to no more than five days in one period of three months. We are not imposing an intolerable burden on employers.
The amendment would introduce discrimination in another way, in that it would deny to workers by hand the sort of benefits that have traditionally been enjoyed by workers by brain for many years in the past. The amendment is discriminatory as to the cause of the dispute and the persons who will be denied benefit. I ask the House to reject the amendment.
§ Mr. Esmond Bulmer (Kidderminster)Briefly I take issue with the Minister on whether it is illogical to discriminate against the nationalised industries. Clearly 260 those industries are apart from the rest of the economy in two important respects. The first respect is that they command a monopoly of vital services. The second respect, which we have seen in recent months, is the extent to which pay and conditions in the nationalised industries have borne no relation to the market place. So long as those who work in the nationalised industries believe that the taxpayer is there to foot the bill, they will have to be regarded as different from the rest of industry. Unfortunately, we are beginning to see the effect of wage increases which have far outstripped productivity. Employment, and the prospects of employment, depends upon the forces of the market place coming far more into the reckoning of the Government than has been the case.
As my right hon. Friend has said, throughout the Bill we have seen provisions which are to be welcomed in terms of improving conditions for employees, but at the same time we have seen the Government's failure to recognise the many different burdens placed on employers at a time when they are unable to discharge them. If we consider what happens in the rest of Europe, it is clear that the principle of guarantee pay does not fall on the employer to the extent that is mooted in the Bill. In certain European countries provision is made for strikes in the nationalised industries—
§ Mr. Ivor Clemitson (Luton, East)I return to the point that the hon. Gentleman made about the nationalised industries being monopolies. He suggested that nationalised industries are always in monopoly positions, but is that true? Is it not true that there are privately-owned companies which are in monopoly positions?
§ Mr. BulmerI would not seek to argue that every nationalised industry is a monopoly, but I think we are all aware of crucial services that are monopolies. The withdrawal of those services places individual employers in a position in which they cannot carry on their businesses.
§ Mr. ClemitsonMy point was that we cannot draw a distinction in terms of monopolies and equate monopolies with nationalised industries.
§ Mr. BulmerThe point I was seeking to argue was that if monopoly situations 261 are allowed to operate without the normal sanctions of the market applying, there is created a separate and privileged position. Therefore, if people go on strike in that situation they are in a somewhat different position from people who go on strike in a commercial enterprise. So long as the position remains that the Government will foot whatever deficit results at the end of the day, that position will continue.
I return to the point I was making about the position in Europe. It is accepted throughout Europe that guarantee pay is something that should be offered. On the other hand, there is no country in Europe which seeks to operate a system which is so prejudicial to the employer as that which is proposed in the Bill.
§ 4.45 p.m.
§ Mr. HayhoeI am sorry that the Minister has not been forthcoming, but I am not altogether surprised. As he said, this is ground that we debated, albeit in a slightly different context, in Committee. Quite clearly there was a major difference between both sides of the Committee which has been reflected in this short debate.
We feel that there is unfairness and inadequacy in the present wording of the Bill. When an industrial dispute, a strike, takes place—in some circumstances, a lockout, as the Minister pointed out in Committee—which has nothing to do with a particular employer except that it involves his own work force, and when that work force is laid off, the Bill gives those workers an entitlement to some guarantee pay, and the employer who is the innocent party has to make that guarantee payment. We think that that is an unfairness, and that the innocent employer should be excused from making such payment when the lay-off is being caused by the activities of others.
§ Let us take a case under the Remuneration, Charges and Grants Bill. Let us suppose that the maximum or flat-rate increase of £6 leads to industrial action and that there is an attempt to try to break that policy. Such a situation could lead to many workers being laid off in many undertakings. We would then find that employers would be having to make guarantee payments because of action by another group of workers opposed to the Government's policy of trying to overcome inflation. That is a curious and convoluted way of looking at affairs.
§ The purpose of our debates in Committee and in this debate today has been to draw attention to what we think is an unfairness. Of course, we do not stand by the precise details of the words of our amendment, and we recognised that it was possible to make the sort of debating point that was made by the Minister. However, we hoped that the Minister recognised the underlying serious nature of the feeling of many employers, including the many people who run small businesses, that this legislation is placing upon them an additional burden, a burden which will mean that their costs will be increased by the activities of others over whom they have no control.
§ We would not press our amendment to the vote if we had an indication from the Government that they were prepared to meet what we believe is our legitimate point of view. However, as we have had no such indication, I must advise my right hon. and hon. Friends to divide the House on this matter. We are dividing on the principle of the matter. We accept the inadequacies of the wording of the amendment but because there is such a basic unfairness in the legislation we feel that we should divide on the point.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 170, Noes 237.
265| Division No. 323.] | AYES | [4. 50 p.m. |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Boscawen, Hon Robert | Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) |
| Alison, Michael | Bottomley, Peter | Clark, William (Croydon S) |
| Arnold, Tom | Braine, Sir Bernard | Cockcroft, John |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Brittan, Leon | Cooke, Robert (Bristol w) |
| Baker, Kenneth | Brotherton, Michael | Cope, John |
| Banks, Robert | Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Cordle, John H. |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Cormack, Patrick |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Buck, Antony | Corrie, John |
| Blaker, Peter | Bulmer, Esmond | Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E) |
| Body, Richard | Carr, Rt Hon Robert | Critchley, Julian |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Lane, David | Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Latham, Michael (Melton) | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Drayson, Burnaby | Lawrence, Ivan | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Lawson, Nigel | Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Le Marchant, Spencer | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Elliott, Sir William | Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Eyre, Reginald | Luce, Richard | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Farr, John | Macfarlane, Neil | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Fell, Anthony | MacGregor, John | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Madel, David | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Marten, Neil | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | Mates, Michael | Shepherd, Colin |
| Fry, Peter | Mather, Carol | Silvester, Fred |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Maude, Angus | Sims, Roger |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Mawby, Ray | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) |
| Godber, Rt Hon Joseph | Mayhew, Patrick | Speed, Keith |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Spence, John |
| Gray, Hamish | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Sproat, Iain |
| Griffiths, Eldon | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Stainton, Keith |
| Grist, Ian | Moate, Roger | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Monro, Hector | Stanley, John |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Montgomery, Fergus | Steen, Anthony (Wavertree) |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Moore, John (Croydon C) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Hastings, Stephen | Morris, Michael (Northampton S) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Hawkins, Paul | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Townsend, Cyril D. |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Trotter, Neville |
| Holland, Philip | Mudd, David | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Nelson, Anthony | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Howell, David (Guildford) | Neubert, Michael | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Hunt, John | Newton, Tony | Viggers, Peter |
| Hurd, Douglas | Normanton, Tom | Wall, Patrick |
| Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Page, John (Harrow West) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Parkinson, Cecil | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Jessel, Toby | Pattie, Geoffrey | Wood, Rt Hon Richard |
| Percival, Ian | ||
| Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) | Peyton, Rt Hon John | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Price, David (Eastleigh) | |
| Kimball, Marcus | Prior, Rt Hon James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Mr. Adam Butler and |
| Kirk, Peter | Raison, Timothy | Mr. W. Benyon. |
| Lamont, Norman | Rathbone, Tim | |
| NOES | ||
| Allaun, Frank | Corbett, Robin | Faulds, Andrew |
| Anderson, Donald | Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) |
| Archer, Peter | Crawford, Douglas | Flannery, Martin |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Crawshaw, Richard | Fletcher, Raymond (llkeston) |
| Ashton, Joe | Crosland, Rt Hon Anthony | Fletcher, Ted (Darlingon) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Atkinson, Norman | Dalyell, Tam | Forrester, John |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Davidson, Arthur | Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) |
| Bain, Mrs Margaret | Davles, Bryan (Enfield N) | Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) |
| Bates, Alt | Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) | Freeson, Reginald |
| Beith, A. J. | Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Freud, Clement |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Deakins, Eric | Garrett, John (Norwich S) |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Gilbert, Dr John |
| Bishop, E. S. | Delargy, Hugh | Ginsburg, David |
| Booth, Albert | Dell, Rt Hon Edmund | Gould, Bryan |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Dempsey, James | Gourlay, Harry |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Dormand, J. D. | Graham, Ted |
| Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Grant, George (Morpeth) |
| Bradley, Tom | Duffy, A. E. P. | Grimond, Rt Hon J. |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Dunn, James A. | Grocott Bruce |
| Buchanan, Richard | Dunnett, Jack | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Eadie, Alex | Hardy, Peter |
| Cant, R. B. | Edelman, Maurice | Harper, Joseph |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Edge, Geoff | Harrison, Walter (Wakefleld) |
| Cartwright, John | Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | Hatton, Frank |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | Hayman, Mrs Helene |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) | English, Michael | Heffer, Eric S |
| Cohen, Stanley | Ennals, David | Henderson, Douglas |
| Coleman, Donald | Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | Hooley, Frank |
| Conlan, Bernard | Evans, John (Newton) | Hooson, Emlyn |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Horam, John |
| Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H) | Mendelson, John | Small, William |
| Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Mikardo, Ian | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Huckfield, Les | Millan, Bruce | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Snape, Peter |
| Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) | Spearing, Nigel |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Molloy, William | Stallard, A. W. |
| Hunter, Adam | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Stewart, Donald (Western Isles) |
| Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) | Moyle, Roland | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | Stoddart, David |
| Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Janner, Greville | Newens, Stanley | Swain, Thomas |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Noble, Mike | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian | Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) |
| Johnson, James (Hull West) | Orbach, Maurice | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Ovenden, John | Tinn, James |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Palmer, Arthur | Torney, Tom |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Pardoe, John | Tuck, Raphael |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Park, George | Urwin, T. W. |
| Judd, Frank | Parker, John | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Kelley, Richard | Parry, Robert | Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd) |
| Kerr, Russell | Pavitt, Laurie | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Peart, Rt Hon Fred | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Lamborn, Harry | Pendry, Tom | Ward, Michael |
| Lamond, James | Penhaligon, David | Watkins, David |
| Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Phipps, Dr Colin | Watkinson, John |
| Lewis, Arthur (Newham N) | Prescott, John | Watt, Hamish |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Price, C. (Lewisham W) | Weitzman, David |
| Lipton, Marcus | Price, William (Rugby) | Welsh, Andrew |
| Litterick, Tom | Radice, Giles | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Loyden, Eddie | Richardson, Miss Jo | White, James (Pollok) |
| Luard, Evan | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Lyon, Alexander (York) | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) | Whitlock, William |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Williams, Alan (Swansea W) |
| McCartney, Hugh | Rodgers, George (Chorley) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| MacCormick, Iain | Rooker, J. W. | Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford) |
| MacFarquhar, Roderick | Roper, John | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Maclennan, Robert | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Sandelson, Neville | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Madden, Max | Sedgemore, Brian | Woodall, Alec |
| Magee, Bryan | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) | Woof, Robert |
| Mahon, Simon | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne) | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Marks, Kenneth | Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Marquand, David | Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) | |
| Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Sillers, James | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Silverman, Julius | Miss Margaret Jackson. |
| Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Skinner, Dennis |
§ Question accordingly negatived.