§
Amendment proposed: No. 443, in page 3, line 39, at end insert:
'but this right shall not be exercisable in any employment or occupation where the average length of the employment is less than two years in duration'.—[Mr. Prescott.]
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made: —
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 266, Noes 300.
841| Division No. 83.] | AYES | [4.35 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | Irvine.Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) |
| Albu, Austen | Dempsey, James | Janner, Greville |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Doig, Peter | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas. |
| Allen, Scholefield | Dormand, J. D. | Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.) |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) |
| Ashley, Jack | Driberg, Tom | John, Brynmor |
| Ashton, Joe | Duffy, A. E. P. | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) |
| Atkinson, Norman | Dunn, James A. | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Dunnett, Jack | Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) |
| Barnes, Michael | Eadie, Alex | Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) |
| Barnett, Joel | Edelman, Maurice | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Beaney, Alan | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Ellis, Tom | Kaufman, Gerald |
| Bidwell, Sydney | English, Michael | Kelley, Richard |
| Bishop, E. S. | Evans, Fred | Kerr, Russell |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Fernyhough, E. | Kinnock, Neil |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood) | Lambie, David |
| Booth, Albert | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Lamond, James |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Latham, Arthur |
| Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) | Foley, Maurice | Lawson, George |
| Bradley, Tom | Foot, Michael | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Ford, Ben | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Forrester, John | Leonard, Dick |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Lestor Miss Joan |
| Buchan, Norman | Freeson, Reginald | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Galpern, Sir Meyer | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Garrett, W. E. | Lipton, Marcus |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Gilbert, Dr. John | Lomas Kenneth |
| Campbell I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Ginsburg, David | Loughlin, Charles |
| Cant, R. B. | Golding, John | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) |
| Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) | Gourlay, Harry | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) | Grant, George (Morpeth) | McBride, Neil |
| Caste, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Grant, John D. (lslington, E.) | McCartney, Hugh |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | McElhone, Frank |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | McGuire, Michael |
| Cohen, Stanley | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Mackenzie, Gregor |
| Coleman, Donald | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mackie, John |
| Concannon, J. D. | Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hardy, Peter | Maclennan, Robert |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Harper, Joseph | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | MacPherson, Malcolm |
| Cronin, John | Hattersley, Roy | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.) | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) |
| Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) | Heffer, Eric S. | Marks, Kenneth |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hilton, W. S. | Marquand, David |
| Darling, Rt. Hn. George | Horam, John | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Davidson, Arthur | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Meacher, Michael |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Huckfield, Leslie | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Mendelson, John |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Mikardo, Ian |
| Deakins, Eric | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | Millan, Bruce |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Delargy, H. J. | Hunter, Adam | Milne, Edward (Blyth) |
| Molloy, William | ||
| Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Rankin, John | Swain, Thomas |
| Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Reed, D. (Sedgefield) | Taverne, Dick |
| Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) | Rhodes, Geoffrey | Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.) |
| Moyle, Roland | Richard, Ivor | Tinn, James |
| Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Tomney, Frank |
| Murray, Ronald King | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Torney, Tom |
| Ogden, Eric | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Tuck, Raphael |
| O'Halloran, Michael | Roderick, CaerwynE. (Br'c'n & R'dnor) | Urwin, T. W. |
| O'Malley, Brian | Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) | Valley, Eric G. |
| Oram, Bert | Roper, John | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Orbach, Maurice | Rose, Paul B. | Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints) |
| Orme, Stanley | Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Oswald, Thomas | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) | Wallace, George |
| Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) | Watkins, David |
| Padley, Walter | Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) | Weitzman, David |
| Paget, R. T. | Short, Mrs. Renee (W'hampton, N. E.) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Palmer, Arthur | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles | Sillars, James | White, James (Glasgow, Pollok) |
| Pardoe, John | Silverman, Julius | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Parker, John (Dagenham) | Skinner, Dennis | Whitlock, William |
| Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) | Small, William | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred | Spearing, Nigel | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Pendry, Tom | Spriggs, Leslie | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Pentland, Norman | Stallard, A. W. | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| Perry, Ernest G. | Steel, David | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg | Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham) | |
| Prescott, John | Stoddart, David (Swindon) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) | Strang, Gavin | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Price, William (Rugby) | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. | Mr. William Hamling. |
| Probert, Arthur | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley | |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Glyn, Dr. Alan |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Goodhart, Philip |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Clegg, Walter | Goodhew, Victor |
| Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian | Cockeram, Eric | Gower, Raymond |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Cooke, Robert | Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) |
| Astor, John | Coombs, Derek | Gray, Hamish |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Cooper, A. E. | Green, Alan |
| Awdry, Daniel | Cordle, John | Grieve, Percy |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Cormack, Patrick | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Costain, A. P. | Grylls, Michael |
| Balniel, Lord | Critchley, Julian | Gummer, SeIwyn |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Crouch, David | Gurden, Harold |
| Batsford, Brian | Crowder, F. P. | Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hall, John (Wycombe) |
| Bell, Ronald | Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Benyon, W. | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj-Gen. Jack | Hannam, John (Exeter) |
| BERRY, Hn. Anthony | Dean, Paul | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) |
| Biffen, Jonn | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Digby, Simon Wingfield | Harvey, Sir Arthur vere |
| Blaker, Peter | Dixon, Piers | Haselhurst, A Ian |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.) | Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Hastings, Stephen |
| Body, Richard | Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Havers, Michael |
| Boscawen, Robert | Drayson, G. B. | Hawkins, Paul |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Bowden, Andrew | Dykes, Hugh | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Eden, Sir John | Heseltine, Michael |
| Braine, Bernard | Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Hicks, Robert |
| Bray, Ronald | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Hiley, Joseph |
| Brewis, John | Elliott, R. W. (N-c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Emery, Peter | Hill, James (Southampton, Test) |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Farr, John | Holland Philip |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Fell, Anthony | Hoit, Miss Mary |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | Hordern, Peter |
| Bryan, Paul | Fidler, Michael | Hornby, Richard |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N & M) | Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) | Homsby-Smith Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia |
| Buck, Antony | Fisher, N igel (Surbiton) | Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Ftetcher-Cooke, Charles | Howell, David (Guildford) |
| Burden, F. A. | Fookes, Miss Janet | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Foster, Sir John | Hunt, John |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray & Nairn) | Fowler, Norman | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Carlisle, Mark | Fox, Marcus | Iremonger, T. L. |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) | James, David |
| Channon, Paul | Fry, Peter | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Jessel, Toby |
| Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Gibson-Watt, David | Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) |
| Chichester-CIark, R. | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) |
| Churchill, W. S. | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Jopling, Michael |
| Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | More, Jasper | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Kaberry Sir Donald | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. | Soref, Harold |
| Kellett Mrs. Elaine | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Speed, Keith |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Mudd, David | Spence, John |
| Kilfedder, James | Murton, Oscar | Sproat, lain |
| Kimball, Marcus | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Stainton, Keith |
| King Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Neave, Airey | Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper) |
| King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Kinsey, J. B. | Normanton, Tom | Stokes, John |
| Kirk, Peter | Nott, John | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Kitson, Timothy | Onslow, Cranley | Sutcliffe, John |
| Knight, Mrs. Jill | Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally | Tapsell, Peter |
| Knox, David | Osborn, John | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Lambton, Antony | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Lane, David | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Langford-Holt, Sir John | Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.) |
| Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Le Marchant, Spencer | Peel, John | Temple, John M. |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Percival, Ian | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret |
| Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Peyton, Rt. Hn. John | Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) |
| Longden, Gilbert | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| Loveridge, John | Pink, R. Bonner | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| McAdden, Sir Stephen | Pounder, Rafton | Tilney, John |
| MacArthur, Ian | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| McCrindle, R. A. | Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. | Trew, Peter |
| McLaren, Martin | Proudfoot, Wilfred | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| McManus, Frank | Quennell, Miss J. M. | Vaughan, Dr. Gerard |
| Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) | Raison, Timothy | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| McNair-Wilson, Michael | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James | Waddington, David |
| McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Maddan, Martin | Redmond, Robert | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Madel, David | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Maginnis, John E. | Rees, Peter (Dover) | Walters, Dennis |
| Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Rees-Davies, W. R. | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Marten, Neil | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | Warren, Kenneth |
| Mather, Carol | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Maude, Angus | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald | Ridsdale, Julian | Whits, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Mawby, Ray | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Wilkinson, John |
| Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Rost, Peter | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Royle, Anthony | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W) | Russell, Sir Ronald | Woodnutt Mark |
| Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | St. John-Stevas, Norman | Worsley, Marcus |
| Moate, Roger | Scott, Nicholas | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Molyneaux, James | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | Younger, Hn. George |
| Money, Ernie D. | Shelton, William (Clapham) | |
| Monks, Mrs. Connie | Simeons, Charles | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Monro, Hector | Sinclair, Sir George | Mr. Reginald Eyre and |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Skeet, T. H. H. | Mr. Tim Fortescue. |
§ 4.45 p.m.
§ The ChairmanThe next Amendment is No. 417—in page 4, line 1, leave out from ' union' to end of line 5, standing m the name of the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle). With it, I suggest that we consider Amendment No. 421, in page 4, line 1, after 'union', insert:
'and any other activities which derive from his trade union membership'.and Amendment No. 498, in page 4, line 5, at end insert:'which is designated in and subject to the rules of the union'.both of which are also in the right hon. Lady's name. Mr. Harold Walker.
§ Mr. Harold Walker (Doncaster)Under protest, Sir Robert, we are not moving Amendment No. 417.
§ The ChairmanThe next Amendment for debate is No. 501.
§ Mr. Harold WalkerI beg to move Amendment No. 501, in page 4, line 6, leave out from 'be' to the end of line 21 and insert:
'an implied term of every contract of employment that neither the employer nor any person acting on the employer's behalf shall do anything for the purpose of—843 and any provision of such contract inconsistent with that term or purporting to exclude or modify it shall be void.
- (a) preventing or deterring the employee from being or becoming a member of a trade union or penalising him by reason of his being or becoming such a member, or
- (b) requiring or compelling him to be or become a member of an organisation of employees which is not a trade union within the meaning of this section or penalising him by reason of his not being or becoming such a member,
For the purposes of this section "trade union" includes any organisation of employees whether or not it is a registered trade union within the meaning of this Act but excludes any such organisation if it is under the domination or control of any employer or group of employers or of one or more employers' associations'.We move the Amendment to reassert in more practicable terms—terms which seem to us to accord more closely with the realities of industry than do the right hon. Gentleman's terms—the statutory right to belong to a trade union. The Amendment reproduces almost exactly the words included in the Industrial Relations Bill presented to the House by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) earlier this year —words chosen after the fullest consultation with both sides of industry.There are a number of differences between the two formulae. First, we meet, in Clause 5(2) as drafted, for the first time that new scourge of the Secretary of State's—the unfair industrial practice. That is a concept the iniquities of which we shall expose and oppose in later debates, so I shall not go into detail now. I shall merely run up the flag of opposition. Secondly, the subsection props up the provision which we discredited and demolished so effectively yesterday.
Thirdly, there is the profoundly important point that our Amendment protects the right of the workers to join an independent union whether it is registered under the Government's stringent and oppressive rules, provided for in later Clauses, or otherwise. It is contradictory, not to say extraordinary that when it comes to the application of the punitive part of the Bill, it is so drafted, by the inclusion of references to organisations of workers, that unions, registered and unregistered, are brought into the scope, whereas, in this subsection, those who have been coerced by the Secretary of State within a registered straitjacket can be stripped of their statutory rights. Unless we get a satisfactory and convincing reply on this matter, we shall be obliged to divide the Committee.
§ The Solicitor-General (Sir Geoffrey Howe)We cannot invite the Committee 844 to accept the Amendment. I follow the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker) in not discussing now the basic concept of the unfair industrial practice because we can go into that more fully later on, save only to say that it does not strike us as astonishing or remarkable that the Committee should be considering and identifying and defining certain practices on both sides of industry which are or are not to be regarded as fair or unfair.
We cannot regard it as right for the protection of the right to belong and the right not to belong to be defined as suggested in the Amendment. The rights we spent a long time discussing last night deserve greater prominence than mere inclusion in the implied terms and conditions of employees' contracts of service. We believe that this right should be formulated consistently with the other points of principle which the Committee considered last night.
There is also the proposed limitation in the Amendment of the right to belong protected by statute, to a registered trade union. But that right is also consistent with the rest of the policy of the Bill. It was one of the recommendations of the Donovan Commission that the term "trade union" should be applied only to registered bodies. So far as Donovan considered this point, he recommended that the right to belong to a trade union should be confined to a trade union defined in this way. We believe it to be consistent that, if a body and its members are to have statutorily defined rights to belong, which they may defend against their employers and against all the world, then the organisations in respect of which those rights would be available should be clearly defined and identified, having accepted plain rights and obligations, and there is no difficulty for any bona fide workers' organisation to achieve the status which would allow its members to enjoy this right.
We also provide that an employer shall not be entitled to require his employees to belong to a dominated or non-independent union. To that extent, both sides of the Committee march together. The right of a worker to complain about an employer insisting upon his membership of a non-independent union is contained in Clause 5(l)(b), so on that point the employees' protection against 845 a requirement to belong is similar. Points of principle divide the Committee on this Amendment, and for that reason I invite the Committee to reject it.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made: —
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 263, Noes 302.
849| Division No. 84. | AYES | [4.55 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood) | McCartney, Hugh |
| Albu, Austen | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | McElhone, Frank |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McGuire, Michael |
| Allen, Scholefield | Foley. Maurice | Mackenzie, Gregor |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | Foot, Michael | Mackie, John |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Ford, Ben | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Ashley, Jack | Forrester, John | Maclennan, Robert |
| Ashton, Joe | Fraser, John (Norwood) | McMillan, Torn (Glasgow, C.) |
| Atkinson, Norman | Freeson, Reginald | MacPherson, Malcolm |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Galpern, Sir Myer | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Barnes, Michael | Garrett, W. E. | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) |
| Barnett, Joel | Gilbert, Dr. John | Marks, Kenneth |
| Beaney, Aian | Ginsburg, David | Marquand, David |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Golding, John | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Bennett, James (Ghasgow, Bridgeton) | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Gourlay, Harry | Meacher, Michael |
| Bishop, E. S. | Grant, Geroge (Morpeth) | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | Mendelson, John |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Mikardo, Ian |
| Booth, Albert | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Millan, Bruce |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Millne, Edward (Blyth) |
| Bradky, Tom | Harnnan William (G'gow, Maryhill) | Molloy, William |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Hardy, Peter | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Harrision, Walter (Wakefield) | Morris, Alferd (Wythenshawe) |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Buchan, Norman | Hattersley Roy | Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | Moyle, Roland |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Heffer, Eric S | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Hilton' W. S. | Murray, Ronald King |
| Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Horam, John | Ogden, Eric |
| Carrt, R. B. | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Carmichael, Neil | HOWELL Denis (Small Heath) | O'Malley, Brian |
| Carter, Ray (Birm ngh'm, Northlield) | Huckfield, Lesile | Oram,Bert |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn(Anglessy) | Orbach, Maurice |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Orme, Stanley |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Hushes Roy (Newport) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) |
| Cohen, Stanley | Hunter, Adam | Padley, Walter |
| Concannon, J. D. | lrvine,Rt. Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill) | Paget, R. T. |
| Conlan, Bernard | Janner, Grevillie | Palmer, Arthur |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Jeger, Mrs. Lena(H'b-n'St.P'cras,S.) | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Cronin, John | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) | John, Brynmor | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Dalyell, Tam | Johnson Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Pendry, Tom |
| Darling, Rt. Hn. George | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Pentland, Norman |
| Davidson Arthur | Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) | Perry, Ernest G. |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) | Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Prescott, John |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Deakins, Eric | Kaufman, Gerald | Rankin, John |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Kelley, Richard | Reed, D. (Sedgefield) |
| Delargy, H. J. | Kerr, Russell | Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) |
| Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | Kinnock, Neil | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Dempsey, James | Lambie, David | Richard, Ivor |
| Dolg, Peter | Lamond, James | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Dormand, J. D. | Latham, Arthur | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon) |
| Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | Lawson, George | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Leadbitter, Ted | Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n & R'dnor) |
| Driberg, Tom | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Leonard, Dick | Roper, John |
| Dunn, James A. | Lestor, Miss Joan | Rose, Paul B. |
| Dunnett, Jack | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) |
| Eadie, Alex | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Edelman, Maurice | Lipton, Marcus | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Lomas, Kenneth | Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Loughlin, Charles | Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.) |
| Ellis, Tom | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Silkin Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| English, Michael | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Sillars, James |
| Evans, Fred | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Silverman, Julius |
| Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. | McBride, Neil | Skinner, Dennis |
| Small, William | Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.) | White, James (Gasgow, Pollok) |
| Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) | Tinn, James | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Spearing, Nigel | Tomney, Frank | Whitlock, William |
| Spriggs, Leslie | Tomey, Tom | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Stallard, A. W. | Tuck, Raphael | Williams, Alan (Swansea, w.) |
| Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham) | Urwin, T. W. | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Stoddart, David (Swindon) | Varley, Eric G. | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Storehouse, Rt. Hn. John | Wainwright, Edwin | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| Strang, Gavin | Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints) | Wilson, William (Coventry, s.) |
| Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | |
| Summerskril, Hn. Dr. Shirley | Wallace, George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Swain, Thomas | Watkins, David | Mr. Donald Coleman and |
| Taverne, Dick | Weitzman, David | Mr. William Hamling. |
| Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.) | Wellbeloved, James | |
| Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) | Wells, William (WalsaH, N.) | |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Dean, Paul | Hordern, Peter |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. | Hornby, Richard |
| Allason, James (Hemet Hempstead) | Digby, Simon Wingfield | Hornsby-Smith. Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia |
| Amery, Rt. Hn. Jutian | Dixon, Piers | Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Howell, David (Guildford) |
| Astor, John | Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Drayson, G. B. | Hunt, John |
| Awdry, Daniel | du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Dykes, Hugh | Iremonger, T. L. |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Eden, Sir John | James, David |
| Balniel, Lord | Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) |
| Barber, Rt. Hn Anthony | Eillot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Jessel, Toby |
| Batsford, Brian | Elliott, R.W(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Emery, Peter | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) |
| Beff, Ronald | Eyrne, Reginald | Jopling, Michael |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Farr, John | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith |
| Benyon, W. | Fell, Anthony | Kaberry, Sir Donald |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | Kellett, Mrs. Elaine |
| Biffen John | Fidler, Micheal | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) | Kilfedder, James |
| Blaker Peter | Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) | Kimball, Marcus |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) |
| Body, Richard | Fookes, Miss Janet | King, Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Boscawen, Robert | Foster, Sir John | Kinsey, J. R. |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Fowler, Norman | Kirk, Peter |
| Bowden, Andrew | Fox, Marcus | Kitson, Timothy |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) | Knight, Mrs. Jill |
| Braine, Bernard | Fry, Peter | Knox, David |
| Bray, Ronald | Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Lambton, Anthony |
| Brews, John | Gardner, Edward | Lane, David |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Gibson-Watt David | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Brocktebank-Fowler, Christopher | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Le Marchant, Spencer |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Gfyn, Dr. Alan | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Bryan, Paul | Goodhart, Phillip | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm;th, Langstone) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) | Goodhew,Victor | Longden, Gilbert |
| Buck, Antony | Gower Raymond | Loveridge, John |
| Bumus, Sir Eric | Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | McAdden, Sir Joseph |
| Burden, F. A. | Gray Hamish | MacArthur, lan |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Green Alan | McCrindle, R. A. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray&Nairn) | Grieve' Percy | McLaren, Martin |
| Carlisle, Mark | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Grylis, Michael | McMaster, Stanley |
| Charmon, Paul | Gummer, Selwyn | Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Curden, Harold | McNair-Wilson, Michael |
| Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) | McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Maddan, Martin |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Madel, David |
| Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Maginnis, John E. |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Harmam, John (Exeter) | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest |
| Clegg, Walter | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Marten, Neil |
| Cockeram, Eric | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Mather, Carol |
| Cooke, Robert | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Maude, Angus |
| Coombs, Derek | Hasethurst, Alan | Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald |
| Cooper, A. E. | Havers, Michael | Mawby, Ray |
| Cordle, John | Hawkins, Paul | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. |
| Cormack, Patrick | Hayhoe, Bamey | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Costain, A. P. | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward | Mills, Peter (Torrington) |
| Critchley, Julian | Heseltine, Michael | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) |
| Crouch, David | Hicks, Robert | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Crowder, F. P. | Higgins, Terence L. | Mitchell, Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Hiley, Joseph | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) | Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) | Moate, Roger |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Molyneaux, James |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack | Holland, Philip | Money, Ernie |
| Holt, Miss Mary |
| Monks, Mrs. Connie | Rees-Davies, W. R. | Tebbit, Norman |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | Temple, John M. |
| More, Jasper | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret |
| Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) |
| Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Ridsdale, Julian | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| Mudd, David | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Murton, Oscar | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Tilney, John |
| Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Neave, Airey | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Trew, Peter |
| Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Rost, Peter | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Normanton, Tom | Royte, Anthony | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Nott, John | Russell, Sir Ronald | Vaughan, Dr. Gerard |
| Onslow, Cranley | St. John-Stevas, Norman | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally | Scott, Nicholas | Waddington, David |
| Osborn, John | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | Shelton, William (Clapham) | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Page, Graham (Crosby) | Simeons, Charles | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Sinclair, Sir George | Walters, Dennis |
| Pardoe, John | Skeet, T. H. H. | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Peel, John | Soref, Harold | WeatherilI, Bernard |
| Percival, Ian | Speed, Keith | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Peyton, Rt. Hn. John | Spence, John | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Pike, Miss Mervyn | Sproat, Iain | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Pink, R. Bonner | Stainton, Keith | Wilkinson, John |
| Pounder, Rafton | Stanbrook, Ivor | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Steel, David | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. | Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper) | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| Proudfoot, Wilfred | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | Stokes, John | Worsley, Marcus |
| Quennell, Miss J. M. | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Raison, Timothy | Sutcliffe, John | Younger, Hn. George |
| Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James | Tapsell, Peter | |
| Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Redmond, Robert | Taylor Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) | Mr. Hector Monro and |
| Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) | Mr. Tim Fortescue. |
| Rees, Peter (Dover) | Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.) |
§ 5.0 p.m.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI beg to move Amendment No. 368, in page 4, line 14, leave out 'person as an employee' and insert 'worker'.
§ The ChairmanWith this Amendment it will be for the convenience of the Committee if we discuss Amendment No. 369, in line 34, leave out from 'engage' to 'to' in line 35 and insert:
'a worker who, if engaged by him, would be a worker'.and Amendment No. 464, in page 5, line 10, leave out 'of employment' and insert 'with his employer'.
§ The Solicitor-GeneralThe purpose of these Amendments is to extend the provisions of Clause 5 not merely to employees, that is to say people employed on a contract of employment or a contract of service, but to people defined elsewhere in the Bill as "workers", that is to say to those people working on contracts to perform personally any work or services. These are people who are not necessarily employed on a regular contract of employment but who are, for example, employed on a job-to-job basis, such as plumbers doing independent contracts from stage to stage, actors employed, as 850 some may be, on particular contracts to provide services on a given occasion but not actually employed as employees, or musicians who may be employed not as employees but who would come within the definition of "workers" as set out in Clause 48.
The other category to whom this series of Amendments would extend the provisions and benefits of Clause 5 are persons employed as civil servants who do not necessarily work under a contract of employment authough they are, as defined, in employment under or for the purposes of a Government Department.
I hope that the Committee will agree to accept the Amendments which go together. The first is to replace the concept of an employee at lines 14 and 34 of page 4 with the concept of a worker which brings in the wider definition. Amendment No. 464 alters the phrase "contract of employment" to "contract with his employer" so as to extend again the definition of working hours in the same way to this category of persons. I hope the Committee will feel that I have sufficiently explained the object of the Amendments and that they are sensible proposals to consider and accept.
§ Amendment agreed to.
851§ The ChairmanMr. Harold Walker, Amendment No. 499.
§ Mr. Harold WalkerUnder protest at the restrictions imposed by the guillotine. I do not move the Amendment.
§ Amendment made: No. 369, in page 4, line 34, leave out from 'engage' to 'to' in line 35 and insert 'a worker who, if engaged by him, would be a worker'. —[The Solicitor-General.]
§ Sir Harmar Nicholls (Peterborough)I beg to move, Amendment No. 446, in page 4, line 38, at end insert:
(3A) Where an exempt agreement is for the time being in force between an employers' association and a trade union, a worker to whom the exempt agreement applies shall not have the right to refuse to be a member of that trade union unless he objects on grounds of conscience to being a member of a trade union and agrees to pay appropriate contributions to the trade union in lieu of membership of it; and accordingly it shall not then be an unfair industrial practice for the employer, or for any person acting on behalf of the employer,—
- (a) to dismiss, penalise or otherwise discriminate against any such worker on the grounds that he is not and has not objected on grounds of conscience to being a member of that trade union, or, having so objected, has not agreed, or has refused or failed, to pay such contributions, or
- (b) to refuse to engage as an employee a person who, if so engaged, would be an employee to whom the exempt agreement applies, on the grounds that he is not and has not objected on grounds of conscience to being a member of that trade union, or, having so objected, has not agreed, or has refused or failed, to pay such contributions.
§ The ChairmanWe shall take at the same time the following:
§
Amendment No. 392, in clause 7, page 6, line 8, after 'void', insert:
'save that the Secretary of State may provide for the exemption of certain agreements from the provisions of this subsection through affirmative resolution of Parliament and that such agreements so exempted will be legally enforceable contracts to which opting-out arrangements made available for other agreements under section 32 and section 33 of this Act shall not apply. Such agreements exempted by the Secretary of State shall be subject to investigation by the Monopolies Commission prior to an exemption resolution being laid before Parliament'.
§
Amendment No. 448, in page 6, line 25, at end add:
(4) Subsections (1) and (2) of this section shall not apply to any provision of an exempt agreement.
§ Amendment No. 449, in page 6, line 34, after 'agreement', insert 'or exempt agreement'.
§ Amendment No. 450, in page 6, line 37, after 'agreement', insert 'or exempt agreement'.
§ Amendment No. 451, in page 6, line 41, after 'agreement', insert 'or exempt agreement'.
§ Amendment No. 452, in page 7, line 4, after 'agreement', insert 'or exempt agreement'.
§ Amendment No. 453, in page 7, line 14, after 'agreement', insert 'or exempt agreement'.
§ Amendment No. 454, in page 7, line 27, after 'work', insert 'or in entertainment work'.
§ Amendment No. 455, in page 7, line 31, after 'section', insert '(a)'.
§
Amendment No. 456, in page 7, line 33, at end add:
(b) 'entertainment work' shall include performances for the purposes of the theatre, cinematography, sound or television broadcasting and recording.
§ Amendment No. 457, in Clause 9, page 7, line 35, after 'agreement', insert 'or an exempt agreement'.
§ Amendment No. 458, in Clause 10, page 8, line 14, after 'agreement' insert 'or an exempt agreement'.
§
Amendment No. 459, in Clause 11, page 9, line 2, after '(1)', insert:
'Subject to subsection (2) of this section'.
§
Amendment No. 460, in page 9, line 14, at end insert:
(1A) Subject to subsections (1B) and (1C) of this section, where an agreement has been made, whether before or after the coming into operation of this section, between an employers' association and one or more trade unions whereby the employers' association agrees, in respect of workers of one or more descriptions specified in the agreement, that their terms and conditions of employment by any member of that employers' association, or of any member of any organisation of employers which is a constituent of or affiliated to or is represented at that employers' asociation, shall include such a condition as is set out in subsection (1) of this section, the Secretary of State may, on an application made to him by the parties to the agreement, by order made by statutory instrument provide that the agreement shall be deemed to be an agency shop agreement made between each employer who is or shall thereafter become any such member and the trade union or trade unions.
853
(1B) An order under this section may be made by the Secretary of State if it appears to him that by reason of—
the opportunity of such workers of entering into agency shop agreements is materially impaired.(1C) The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument revoke any order made under subsection (1A) of this section and the relevant agreement shall thereupon cease to be deemed to be an agency shop agreement.
§
Amendment No. 461, in Clause 87, page 62, line 13, after '(2)', insert:
'Subject to subsection (3) of this section'.
§
Amendment No. 462, in page 62, line 18, at end insert:
(2A) A company shall not be regarded for the purposes of this section as an extraneous party in relation to an industrial dispute if—
§
Amendment No. 463, in page 62, line 31, at end add:
(4) For the purposes of this section two companies shall be taken to be associated one to another if one is a subsidiary of the other, or both are subsidiaries of a third company.
§ New Clause 9—(Provision for exemption of certain agreements).
§ New Clause 10—(Revocation of orders related to register of exempt agreements).
§ New Clause 11— (Register of exempt agreements).
§ Sir Harmar NichollsI feel that the selection of this group is very sensible. It allows us to make a proper investigation into this aspect of the Bill without wasting time.
We knew that Clause 5 would of necessity receive the sort of investigation that it has had.
We spent yesterday on generalisations. General principles were expressed and there was a clash of views. Today, this group of Amendments brings us from the general to the particular. It is more humdrum but perhaps more important, in that we are putting specific points to 854 the right hon. Gentleman to justify changes which will not interfere with the general principle of the Bill. The Amendments seek to provide a limited exemption from the rigid provisions in relation to the closed shop contained in Clauses 5 and 7. This is necessary where certain provisions would otherwise conflict with the general purposes of the Bill as set out in Clause 1.
It was explained yesterday and, I think generally accepted, that trade unions are diverse. Some are professional associations at the same time and I am glad that this has been recognised in the proposals which are to be made to facilitate the continued operation of the B.M.A. and similar professional bodies which, although their members must have special qualifications, perform similar functions to trade unions. There are circumstances in which the total abolition of "any" kind of closed shop provision made between employers and unions can be unfair and damaging, and I know that it would not be the wish of my right hon. Friend to be unfair and damaging if a case for retention can be made out.
I have attempted to indicate the general nature of these provisions in my proposed new Clause 9(4). The situation arises in relation to unions of people who are casually employed and engaged on individual contracts, people who are in occupations in which there is overcrowding and unemployment and, as a consequence, considerable poverty and where joint arrangements have been made between unions and management to deal effectively with these problems by methods which make industrial conflict a rarity.
I agreed with my right hon. Friend yesterday when he implied that, whilst he consulted management, he did not feel that he must accept their point of view in formulating legislation. Although I agree with him that the Government must make up their own mind, having had their consultations, I suggest that a strong argument to be taken into account is that union and management are in agreement that a certain action would be in the interests of the industry and the employees. The union and the management side of the theatrical profession are as one in the suggestions which I am making.
§ Mr. Stanley Orme (Salford, West)That applies to other industries as well.
§ Sir Harmar NichollsCertainly. I will use Equity and the acting profession as an example, although there may be other groups engaged casually in the creative side of the entertainments industry.
It has been said in the House before, but it should be repeated, that the employment situation and the earnings in this profession are truly appalling. An average actor in a year will work for no more than 17 weeks in the theatre and 19 days in all the other media. His average earnings are about £800 a year. For actresses the figures are even lower. The amount of unemployment that is revealed by these figures is an unnecessary burden on the state in these inflationary days when so much effort is being made to minimise Government expenditure.
In spite of this and of all the advice in the careers pamphlet put out by the Department of Education and Science there is an unending flow of would-be actors and actresses who are undeterred by the poor conditions because they are so fascinated by this art. Some would actually pay to be allowed to put their feet on the professional stage. The strength of this emotion, which is in some ways commendable, could be dangerous. In normal professions one would expect the uncertainty of employment and low remuneration to act as a deterrent to people wanting to enter the profession—
§ 5.15 p.m.
§ Mr. Raymond Gower (Barry)Are the figures of average earnings given by my hon. Friend limited to persons appearing on the professional stage, or do they include people appearing in variety? Actors tend to overflow into closely analogous activities.
§ Sir Harmar NichollsThe figure covers the whole membership of Equity. In a normal profession those appalling figures alone would be sufficient to regulate the number of people wishing to enter the profession, but that is not so because of the glamour of the theatre. Equity has never had a membership of more than 20,000—it is rather lower at the moment —yet more than 42,000 newcomers have come into Equity in the past ten years. The continuance of dilution on such a scale can only be harmful to the standards 856 of the profession. In the case of lawyers and doctors the effect of a closed shop is created by the necessary qualifications which must be acquired before they can practise. The professional associations of doctors and lawyers therefore act to some extent as trade unions and the Government have made provision for them to carry on their operations in this way. But the acting profession cannot be protected by such clear-cut qualifications. It is not practicable to define a qualification for the would-be entrant except on the basis of an offer of employment, which is tantamount to accepting that a qualification has been attained. The drama schools issue certificates to successful students, but it is impossible for the profession, with its great traditions, to restrict entrance to the profession merely to those who have gone through drama school.
In the film industry and on television, many good films and programmes have been made which have earned millions of dollars, by the employment of performers who have been admitted to the profession without having gone through drama school. That is not to say that they have not a qualification. A qualification has been recognised by the offer of employment. The qualifications and the standards vital in medicine and important in law are right, but I suggest to my right hon. Friend that it is just as important to accept a standard such as I have described in our cultural life as to accept the standards of medicine and the law.
The protection needed by the acting profession, which is so open to exploitation, has been obtained only by a form of union-shop established by Equity, which is both a union shop and a professional association. The basic principles of this shop were established by leading actors as far back as the 1930s and were explained in some detail yesterday by the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins). They were adopted, as he reminded us, by Oliver Stanley when he was Minister of Labour. Whilst hon. Gentlemen opposite can mention Oliver Stanley in passing, members of the Conservative Party will listen with special respect, because his skill, shrewdness and dedication to duty inspired our party, ana we know that he would not have done this unless he had thought it was wise to do so. He founded the joint industrial 857 councils, based on the principle of full organisation on both sides. This system of joint councils has been extended to the film industry and television with good effect.
The absence of strikes, which have been prevalent in so many other industries, proves how successful the councils have been in negotiating terms and conditions of employment. I am delighted that I am still able to say that, because some weeks ago one or two extremists were shown the door when they tried to introduce the disruptive tactics which have been accepted by many other industries into this sensible profession. I give this as evidence that the procedures which I want to perpetuate as having been successful.
§ Mr. OrmeThe hon. Gentleman is deploying his arguments with great skill and the Committee is listening with deep interest, but he must be aware that Equity can be considered in parallel with other sectors of British industry where the effect of the Bill will be to remove the very stability that he is asking for.
§ Sir Harmar NichollsI know my right hon. Friend is open to argument about other industries and other professions, and I know that I shall not lose the support of the hon. Gentleman when I say that the claims of Equity are particularly strong. There is indeed no alternative. In many other industries there may be alternatives, but I can see no alternative in the acting profession. Equity has not only given leadership but has maintained professional standards on both sides of the profession. It has brought order into a situation of potential anarchy. Without the joint councils we should not have seen the peaceful development of the profession which makes such a large contribution to the earnings of the country. That evidence is strong and calls for a great deal of sympathy from the Treasury Bench.
This system has all but eliminated the former widespread curse of the theatre, the notorious bogus manager, and if hon. Members read the novels of only a few years past they will discover that such managers were perpetually on the scene. Now they are hardly ever heard of. The employers and the union together prevent a manager who has cheated his artists, or is in debt to his trade creditors, from operating again 858 until those debts are cleared. But this discipline, derived from the joint councils, is enforceable only because the union has the power to instruct its members to refuse engagements with persons, whether fellow artists or employers, who are in breach of their obligations to the joint councils. This is the only sanction the industry has got to keep the industry clean and in operation, and this is a point which I should like to underline.
Unless my right hon. Friend can show me that there are alternative means available to bring about this desired result, I shall have to press the point by asking for support from all parts of the Committee. This system has a similar effect to the disciplinary powers held by the statutory authorities controlling the professions of law and medicine, no greater and no less. Indeed, it is identical and ought to be considered in the same way. This whole successful system cannot remain effective if performers, whether under pressure of unemployment or because they are newcomers to the business, can stay outside the union or resign from it in order to defy the instructions which the regulations of managements and unions are enforced.
I know my right hon. Friend will take into account the importance of the fact that the Theatres' National Committee, a non-political association of theatrical employers representing the whole of this country's living theatre, has declared that it would deeply regret the abandonment of the Theatre Council system because, as it says,
Over the years it has greatly enhanced the relationship between managers and artists.Even more clearly, the Council of Repertory Theatres, representing the managers of all the non-profit distributing repertory theatres, has set out its views in a letter to my right hon. Friend as follows:The theatrical profession is over-crowded and complex and my council is of the opinion that to maintain order and discipline and to safeguard both artists and reputable managers, it is essential to ensure the maintenance of 100 per cent, membership of Equity.This is a very proper statement based on vast experience and is in the interests of managements, actors and actresses, and indeed of the nation, in the sense that the sensible regulation which flows from it prevents unnecessary unemployment, which would be even greater than it is today.859 Moreover, the employers in the theatre, films and television have agreed with Equity upon sophisticated arrangements to prevent the damaging consequences which would flow from the utterly uncontrolled flow of newcomers, talented or otherwise, into the ranks of the performers. The glamour and special position of the profession attracts people to it, even though all the economic arguments and good sense itself should tell them to keep out of it.
§ 5.30 p.m.
§ Mr. Dan Jones (Burnley)The hon. Gentleman has said that the theatrical profession is over-full. May I invite him to agree that the same argument applies to British industry, where there are some 700,000 workers outside who would like to be inside?
§ Sir Harmar NichollsThe hon. Gentleman is pursuing yesterday's argument. Yesterday's debate was on general matters and was a very good debate and brought forward brilliant contributions. This applies to the hon. Member for Birmingham, All Saints (Mr. Brian Walden) and also to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. When my right hon. Friend was addressing the Committee hon Members were quiet, when in fact it was part of their tactics to be noisy. Again the hon. Member for All Saints had a quiet audience of hon. Members when he was making fundamental attacks on some of the things we believe in. However, today we are on particular matters and it is a particular matter with which I am now dealing.
The operation of the agreements by the joint council is so flexible that, though they are beginning to reduce the total numbers coming into a profession which has not room for them, they leave in every case the decision as to who shall come in to the employer and the union has no veto. This is not a question of where a union want to close the shop and is against anybody coming in. The union wants its arguments to be heard by the management side and takes care that they are, but if at the end of the day the management says, "We have heard your argument and we still want to let in this person", then the union does not veto that decision. That sort of flexibility works in practice and does not cut across 860 the principles laid down in the Bill by my right hon. Friend.
Yet I am advised that technically these necessary arrangements fall under the heading of "pre-entry closed shops". I cannot accept that. This arises despite the fact that Equity, apart from this technicality, has neither operated, nor sought, any other than an open shop—that is, agreements under which newcomers are brought in by employers and then are allowed to join the union.
§ Mr. Eddie Griffiths (Sheffield, Brightside)The hon. Gentleman says that he is advised about these matters. Could I ask who has advised him?
§ Sir Harmar NichollsI have now been in the House for 21 years, but when I am interested in a subject I probe every body and every group that I think can assist me. I then use my judgment as a parliamentary magistrate equivalent to see which arguments I ought to take up and which to leave out. When they convince me the argument is good, I use it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Has the hon. Gentleman got a brief?"] I am reading from what are called "copious notes". I would advise the hon. Gentleman not to attack somebody for using notes. Sometimes this speeds up the proceedings and gives opportunities for more hon. Members to take part in a discussion.
I wish to submit a fully prepared case to my right hon. Friend on this very important matter. I want him to change slightly, from the Bill as it now stands and it is for this reason I took the trouble to prepare a case which I thought would read well as well as sound all right.
I hope I have said enough to indicate that I have made a clear case for consideration and amendment for some exemption from the utterly rigid provisions in the Bill as now drafted. I do not believe the only cases for exemption are medicine and the law. There are occasions when we must accept that there are equivalent qualifications which have arisen through experience and good sound sense. The Minister's statement of of his intention to amend the agency shop provisions is welcome. But I should stress that, because of the over-crowded and complex nature of the entertainment 861 industry and of its outstanding success in terms of the principles contained in Clause 1 of the Bill, a success founded on a union shop, what I seek is a limited maintenance of the possibility of compulsory union membership in such cases as these. They are always prepared to take into account the views of the conscientious objector.
I know that I have not told my right hon. Friend anything new, but I come to some words to which I hope he will listen very carefully. I have embarked on this Amendment with some confidence, but I would point out that my wording of this Amendment is not to be regarded as sacrosant. If the Secretary of State can achieve the same ends as I have tried to achieve, by words which are more amenable to him, I shall be glad to co-operate at a later stage, and will not push the matter to a vote at this stage. If my right hon. Friend could give a sign that he recognises the strength of these arguments and will use the parliamentary draftsmen to employ better words than mine, I am happy to let my text stand as a suggestion of what should be done. However, I should be even happier if he is able to accept my words as they now stand. One is always proud of one's own authorship.
Whichever way he deals with the matter today, I hope he will recognise that its effects go far outside the normal employee-employer relationship in idustry. The theatre and the cultural life of our country are part of our nation. There is something rather more spiritual about it than the normal jobs at which we all earn our living. I should not like to see this contribution to our cultural life weakened by any move made by the Government I support, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will see the matter in that light.
§ [Miss HARVIE ANDERSON in the Chair]
§ Mr. Hugh Jenkins (Putney)I find myself in agreement with much, if not all, the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir H. Nicholls) said. As the Committee will recall, I moved a similar Amendment yesterday and the right hon. Gentleman in reply said that he would consider this matter today. The difference between the two suggestions is as follows. My proposal yesterday would write into the Bill 862 certain situations in which anybody, whether a trade union, of actors or anybody else, would be allowed to operate a union shop. The proposal now before the Committee, as I understand it, places in the hands of the Secretary of State the power to make decisions as a result of which under certain circumstances a union might be allowed to operate a union shop. Am I right in that understanding of the proposals?
§ Sir Harmar NichollsI am delighted that we agree on some part. But, as I understood them, the hon. Gentleman's Amendments would have wrecked the Bill. I accept that my right hon. Friend and his colleagues intend to get the principles behind the Bill, but I am trying to find a way for those who would be injured above all others to be exempted from unnecessary injury.
§ Mr. JenkinsPerhaps we should not spend too much time on this matter. I quarrel with the hon. Gentleman's view that my Amendments would have wrecked the Bill. They would have changed it in important details, but they would have had a similar effect to what I hope will be the consequences if this proposal is accepted.
One aspect of the hon. Gentleman's proposal which has disturbed some of my hon. Friends, with whom I have naturally had considerable discussions on the subject, is that it places in the hands of the Minister the power to determine in which circumstances and which union shall be allowed to exercise this right. I believe it to be a reasonable and proper right, as I have made clear, that in certain conditions a union may operate obligatory trade union membership. I argued a philosophical case on that point yesterday. It would be wrong to pursue it again today. There is a good case, but it has already been made.
On the practical side, unless something like the proposal which I put forward yesterday or the proposal which the hon. Member for Peterborough has so eloquently put forward today is accepted, or unless the right hon. Gentleman comes forward with a proposal between the two, a disaster will occur in some areas.
The area which I know best is that of the performers' unions. However, it applies not only to actors; it applies to technicians, musicians—the whole area of 863 professional entertainment. Indeed, under the proposals in the Bill, the Seamen's Union might be caught. A strong case was eloquently put forward yesterday on behalf of the seamen.
If the Minister chose to interpret the powers which he will be given in a liberal fashion, they could be interpreted beyond the narrow range of actors. On the other hand, if the Minister interpreted them narrowly, only the actors would be given the freedom to choose, as it were, their own colleagues.
Is it right that the Minister should have that power? This is the doubt in the minds of my hon. Friends, and I confess that it is a doubt in my mind, too.
Is it right that it should be the Minister's task, or would it be a task better lodged, if it has to be lodged at all in the C.I.R.? I believe that unions should have an absolute right to form a closed shop, or a union shop, without any Ministerial intervention or dictation.
But if that case has, alas, been lost so far—we may yet rescue it on Report— the question is: what can we do now? The proposal put forward by the hon. Member for Peterborough, is, at it were, the minimal solution. This is the least which can be done to prevent total collapse.
I hope that the Minister will say that he hopes to do more than what the hon. Member for Peterborough has proposed today and is prepared to move in the direction of the proposal which I put forward yesterday.
I should like to comment on what the hon. Member for Peterborough said about the stability and lack of serious strike record among actors. At the moment, every contract, without exception, contains a clause which lays down that the performer shall be, directly or indirectly a member of the union. Because this clause is in every contract there has been stability in the profession.
Equity has a vested interest in the maintenance of contractual obligations and is a strict disciplinarian trade union. Equity tells actors that they may not break contracts; it collects fines when they are imposed by managers on defaulting managers. It acts as the disciplinary organisation throughout the entertainment industry. If we take away from this 864 union the power to exercise 100 per cent, union membership we will destroy discipline in an area where, if discipline is destroyed, the whole structure will collapse.
§ Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke (Darwen)I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says about the strict discipline enforced by Equity. But is it not a corollary that, if he achieves 100 per cent, union obligation, there should be a right of appeal to an independent body—perhaps an industrial court—because if a disciplinary union takes away the card of one of its members it prevents that member plying his trade and earning his livelihood, as the musicians did in Bonsor's case. Where there is a union shop should there not be a right of appeal to an independent body? In a later part of the Bill there is a provision that, in cases of unfair dismissal by an employer, there shall be an appeal to the Industrial Court. Does it not therefore follow that, on dismissal by a union, which has more serious effects, there should be an equal appeal?
§ Mr. JenkinsI am sure that there will be no objection to such a proposal by the Council of Equity. However, I can recall no occasion on which a member's card has been removed without the employer being extremely thankful.
The discipline which the union enforces is not of the character which I think worries the hon. and learned Gentleman. It is an open discipline which is exercised —I believe that most people who know the facts agree—not only in the interests of Equity, but in the general interests of the entertainment profession. I believe that the fact that managerial associations have written to the hon. Member for Peterborough asking for the maintenance of the Equity shop shows that I am not making a false statement, but that the people who run the entertainment business recognise the foundation on which not only actors rest, but upon which they rest.
I said that I would not intervene at great length. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will pursue his Amendment if the right hon. Gentleman does not give him the assurance which he seeks. I hope, if the hon. Gentleman pursues his Amendment in the Lobbies, that my hon. Friends will support him. If the right 865 hon. Gentleman gives what we consider to be a reasonable assurance concerning the disaster which now threatens the union, for which I have worked so long, I hope that my hon. Friends, if they do not feel able to go into the Lobbies in support of the Amendment, will at least abstain. I therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider carefully, as I am sure he will, everything which has been said and to give us an assurance that he is sufficiently flexible in his attitude to the problem to recognise that there are a number of exceptions where it is in the interests of the community as a whole that a union shop should be maintained.
§ Dame Irene Ward (Tynemouth)I am very glad indeed that my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) has moved this Amendment and has gone into the matter in such depth. What he said was of great interest to both sides of the Committee. I have no qualifications to add to what my hon. Friend said, but it is important that the support which his Amendment deserves should be expressed.
I have always taken a deep interest in the cultural life of this country. It is fair to point out that the House of Commons very rarely debates what it can do to help those who are in the world of cultural activities, if I may put it that way. We rarely look at their problems. We rarely look at what they ought to have from the country, and I think that in a great Bill of this kind, whether we agree with it or not, it would be very unfortunate if we did not look at the problems of those who are engaged in Equity and other forms of cultural activity, in the way so admirably put forward by my hon. Friend.
I have always followed the activities of Equity. I think that it has done a great deal for the people it represents, and I am confident that my right hon. Friend will be prepared to meet the case which has been put forward today. There may, as my hon. Friend said, be other words which would be more effective in carrying out what I feel sure is the desire of the Committee as a whole, and it is therefore fortunate that we are to have two extra days on Report, because that will provide an opportunity for issues of this kind to be gone into in depth by my right hon. Friend.
866 I am sure that my right hon. Friend will be willing to look at all the cases that are put forward. He has great flexibility of approach, and I am therefore confident, whether or not he is able to accept the words suggested by my hon. Friend—and this is a matter of his decision—that he will be in favour of the case that has been put forward. I have great pleasure in supporting what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough, and I look forward to an active response from my right hon. Friend.
§ Mr. John Pardoe (Cornwall, North)I want for a few moments to direct the attention of the Committee to Amendment No. 392 which is being discussed with the Amendment moved by the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls). Our Amendment widens the argument slightly, and I shall not deal with the arguments which have been put specifically on the Equity case. It is appropriate that there should be considerable interest in Equity in the House, because many hon. Gentlemen are failed actors, and many hon. Ladies are failed actresses. My failed is that I am a failed opera singer, but I have the same interest.
I support the case which has been made for Equity. Amendment No. 392 in the names of my hon. Friends and myself, which I admit refers to Clause 7, is on the same principle as, and is coupled with, Amendment No. 446, widens the discussion slightly, and I should therefore like to put different points to the right hon. Gentleman for him to consider.
What I really want the right hon. Gentleman to be able to do is to exercise his discretion, not for Equity alone, but wherever it may be necessary for him to do so in the future. What we seek to do by our Amendment is to allow the Secretary of State to provide for the exemption of certain agreements from the provisions of Clause 7 which bans the pre-entry closed shop, and then to bring it to Parliament for affirmative Resolution, because then it would be debatable by us in each and every case.
We have gone slightly further than the hon. Gentleman has, and I hope that he will agree with these two additional points. If one is going to exempt certain agreements from the general debarment 867 of the no pre-entry closed shop, one has to write in large responsibilities within the pre-entry closed shop, and what we seek to do is to say that such agreements as are exempted will be enforceable, and they will not therefore be let out by the application of Clauses 32 and 33. I hope the hon. Gentleman will agree that that would be right, because that would impose greater responsibilities on the parties within the closed shop.
The second general point is contained in the last part of the Amendment, where we say and recognise that there may be abuses. Obviously there are likely to be abuses within a pre-entry closed shop, and the point has been made that there are difficulties of discipline within a pre-entry closed shop. Where those abuses exist, there must be some policing system, and what we would like the Secretary of State to be able to do is to refer, as a general matter, any such agreement to the Monopolies Commission so that it can continually look into the conditions of the pre-entry closed shop.
I hope that the hon. Member for Peterborough will not think that those matters are in any way against the spirit of his Amendment. I think that they would improve it slightly in the case of Equity. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us that the Government are prepared to look carefully at the points which have been made, and that they are prepared to consider making provision in the Bill for a general dispensation in cases where the Secretary of State considers it necessary, subject, of course, to an affirmative Resolution of Parliament. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take up those points.
§ Mr. Timothy Raison (Aylesbury)As I read the Amendment, it seems to give no indication of the kind of agreement to which this exemption would apply. Surely it would be an unsatisfactory piece of legislation if the hon. Gentleman did not put in any guidelines about the areas in which this would operate?
§ Mr. PardoeI see no reason why we should lay that down, because different circumstances will arise from time to time. We have said that the Secretary of State should be called upon to use 868 his judgment about whether it is right and proper that there should be a pre-entry closed shop, and then Parliament should be called upon to use its judgment. Before Parliament has to discuss the matter the Monopolies Commission will have been asked to report, and its report will be before Parliament before the debate takes place. That is all set out in the Amendment.
Those are sufficient safeguards, and therefore I do not think that there is any need beyond and above the Amendment to lay down the conditions in which the Secretary of State should begin that process by exercising his judgment.
§ Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies (Isle of Thanet)I support the Amendment so ably moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) and so attractively supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Tyne-mouth (Dame Irene Ward). I support the spirit of the Amendment, as I do the manner in which my hon. Friend moved it, but I recognise the difficulties in the way in which the Amendment is laid and drafted.
Perhaps I might tell the Committee why I do not agree with the Amendment in the names of the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) and his hon. Friends. I do not agree with it because I think that it is far too wide. It does not lay down the necessary criteria.
The problem really arises—and I shall turn to another industry in a moment— is where one is concerned predominantly with a trade union which is not engaged in trade, is not engaged in manufacturing industry, but is in truth and in fact really a profession. It is in this class of case that the difficulty arises, and this was shown by my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth when she referred to the cultural activity of this country, to which we pay all too little regard.
What are we really trying to do for Equity? We are really trying to ensure that it is able to maintain standards— the sort of standards which the Law Society and the Bar Council insist upon for the profession, the sort of standards which doctors and dentists have to enjoy.
6.0 p.m.
Yet, for an actor or an actress, one cannot lay down in every case that they 869 must pass an examination. R.A.D.A. and an apprenticeship with a repertory company might be regarded by industrial hon. Members as a good qualification, as it is, but others enter films in a more glamorous way, by being picked up by talent scouts, and can become film stars after one or two films, without the donkey work of the repertory theatre. In the variety part of the industry, the natural talents of a Cockney wit may make him one of our greatest comedians.
These people do not pass examinations, but they are professional people and that is where the key lies for the Minister to find an exemption. In that case, people who join some professional association should pay due regard to the standards laid down and the disciplines which only those in the professions fully understand.
Another example is that of the teachers. I was absolutely white with rage when they went on strike and I wondered why I was so angry. I suddenly realised that, as a barrister, I could not possibly go on strike. "Judges do not strike", I muttered to myself, "and if judges do not strike, why should teachers? "It took me a long time to forgive them at all—
§ Mr. John Fraser (Norwood)Perhaps it is because they are poorly paid.
§ Mr. Rees-DaviesNo, there are many highly paid professors in this country. It is not just a question of the menial payment for which we work in life. One also pursues an occupation which is one's pleasure. One is not paid to be in this House—at least I am not, by the time that I have paid all the outgoings—but that does not mean that we do not enjoy it. Are the teachers a profession or a trade? Their attitudes tend to show today more of the trade outlook than the truly professional sense of understanding.
Another group of people for whom I should like to speak, and without whom Equity would not exist, are the Writers' Guild of Great Britain, with some 700 full members and another 700 associate members, who provide the scripts for Plays, television plays and almost all the productions in this country. They are closely concerned, in the same way as equity. They are, in truth and in fact, a body of authors, professional men and women, who joined the Guild to maintain standards and to ensure fair fees in rela- 870 tion to agreements entered into on their behalf, but also to protect their overseas copyright in America, Commonwealth countries and elsewhere.
The Guild's agreements are of considerable importance and are dealt with in the provisions for agency shop agreements in Clause 6. They have agreements with the F.P.A., the I.T.C. and the I.T.V., the main bodies regulating the transmissions of the employing producers. They have no similar agreement with the B.B.C. These agreements have taken long effort and time to secure and they apply to all representatives of the Guild.
It is a condition that everyone must belong to the Guild, and the main purpose is to uphold the standards upon which the Guild's bargaining power depends. An unsatisfactory producer or director can be listed and members told not to offer their services, either in this country or abroad, to such a person. This eliminates those unsatisfactory practices, as those producers cannot obtain work.
If a few people withdrew from a large union like the Transport and General Workers' Union, it would have no effect, but if only a couple of scriptwriters withdrew from the Guild and dealt with unsatisfactory producers, the Guilds' bargaining power would be broken. A script may be sold for one film or a series such as "The Adventurers". Without full control, the Guild could not accomplish its professional purpose.
The Amendment offers one way of dealing with this—by giving special exemption in such a way as to limit it to professional activities. Another way is to recognise that one of the Bill's purposes is to prevent unions or individuals threatening to induce a breach of contract by an employer, and to turn that around altogether. It would do no harm to the Bill if we remedied the situation with an addition to the Clause which entitled someone to withdraw from a union— which is quite right—but went on to say that it would be an unfair industrial practice for any employer, during a dispute with a union, to induce a member of the union to leave it so that the employer might employ him with a view to prolonging or ending the dispute.
That is to say, one answer is to make it equally wrong for an employer to seduce a worker from his obligations to 871 his union, purely because he wanted to employ him in breach of his own arrangements with the union. There may be other answers, but I hope that we shall be able to find a way to ensure that what was intended to achieve desirable ends for a union like the Writers' Guild, which has never been on strike or withdrawn its labour or entered into any agreements which have not been to the benefit of the public as well as of their own ends, is given some accommodation within what I believe to be a great Measure. Their position, although different from, is largely analogous to, the position of Equity. There may be others, but they are mainly to be found among those who are aiming to uphold certain standards.
Those in the Ministry and the Minister's advisers have given many months, indeed years, anxious thought to this problem. I ask them to continue their imaginative thinking. Only recently did the Guild write to the Ministry, and I sent certain further details only yesterday. I therefore do not expect any concluded opinion on the part of either my right hon. Friend or the Committee because a detailed case was put forward only 24 hours ago.
I wish to make it clear that, having put forward that case, that is not the end of the matter for either my colleagues or myself. Perhaps in the long run the Minister will conclude that we should deal with this problem by taking certain parts out of being a union matter and treating it as a professional one, but I am not satisfied that that would be right. The protection which applies to trade unions and the rights and obligations which unions are entitled to receive are probably appropriate to this matter.
I endorse what has been said by hon. Members about the need to try to find a solution to the major problem facing Equity, which is the need to uphold standards, prevent a watering down of those standards and ensure the proper entry of people into the theatre, rather than to have people barging in, as it were, without any right or know-how. Equally, I hope that we can maintain an increasing standard among authors through the right type of scripts, because that will ensure a high standard of culture in Britain.
§ Mr. GowerMy hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) made a strong case in pointing out, as the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) did yesterday, that it is desirable that there should be special provision in this sphere of the theatre. However, despite the ingenuity of my hon. Friend and the hard work that has obviously gone into the drafting of this group of Amendments, I do not believe that these proposals would be limited to the theatre or to the Guild of Writers.
I have a suspicion that, because of the wording of my hon. Friend's proposal, it could be extended to many occupations and across a wide field of industry, for its references to the level of employment at various times, casual employment and remuneration could apply to seaside catering and similar occupations. I appreciate that that is not the intention, but my right hon. Friend will obviously have to consider the matter in its wider context.
Having said that, I hope that my right hon. Friend will, if he takes the view I have expressed, give this matter further consideration between now and a later stage. It is desirable, from what we have been told, that special provision should be made in the narrow sphere of the theatre and associated occupations, but it would be wrong for a proposal of this kind to be allowed to extend as far as I believe it would extend.
§ 6.15 p.m.
§ The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Carr)This is a difficult matter and one which will need further consideration. I wish, at the outset, to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) who, as the Committee knows, speaks from a long interest in and great knowledge of the acting profession and the entertainment industry, as does the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins). The Committee and the profession will be grateful to my hon. Friend for the careful thought he has given to this issue and the way in which he has attempted to find a solution.
I had to inform the hon. Member for Putney rather hurriedly last night that I definitely could not accept the Amendments which he had tabled. I felt that, as criteria, they would be too variable 873 and unstable. My hon. Friend has come somewhat nearer to the right approach.
I accept that a career in the acting profession and the entertainment industry is one of very high risk. It is also one of low wage levels, except for the few. I accept that entry into the profession cannot be regulated by means of formal qualifications. Undoubtedly there are aspects of the employment situation in this industry, and particularly in the acting and associated authorship profession, which my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) mentioned, which separate them from most other employments and occupations.
We are speaking about acting and entertainment as well as professions and activities closely associated with those spheres of activity. By way of example, there may be cases—I grant that they may be rare—which, though unique, show that it would not be right for the Committee to legislate specifically for Equity or some particular association like it; we must, therefore, if we are to find an escape route, make it of general application, and this makes the problem even more difficult.
I return to what I call broadly the "Equity problem." It is clear that Equity is not dependent on maintaining a pre-entry closed shop. However, there is the question of maintaining casting and other agreements in the theatrical sphere and the fact that these depend in practice on Equity's power to enforce jointly agreed rules on both management and players by virtue of the post-entry closed shop.
For most similar situations, we believe that trade unions will be able to rely satisfactorily on our agency shop provisions. Some of the Amendments which we intend to move to the present agency shop provisions and which, in particular, will enable a union or unions to make an agency shop agreement with a multiplicity of employers—for example, in this case, with West End managers or a repertory theatre organisation—will, we believe, enable Equity to make a reasonably effective agency shop.
I admit that we are not satisfied that, even so amended, that sort of agreement would be adequate in this sphere or in spheres where employment is typically casual, of very short duration, where 874 employers are apt to come and go quickly, where performers are rarely together in the same group for two successive productions and where even in good times, about one half of the total numbers in the profession are probably out of work, or at least between engagements, at any one time.
§ Mr. Hugh JenkinsAs to why the agency shop would be difficult to operate in this sphere, the right hon. Gentleman must add the vast numbers of people who are continuously and mistakenly trying to get into this employment.
§ Mr. CarrYes, but that again is one of the other problems. It is one of the problems which arise out of the appeal of the profession, the nature of it, and the fact that it is not one where entry can be regulated by any formal qualification. Although formal training plays a major part, and probably an increasing part, it is above all a profession in which sheer talent can at times rise to the top, even without training. It seems that there is a case, if we can find it, for making some concession. All I can say to my hon. Friends and hon. Members opposite is that we shall be carefully and sympathetically considering this matter.
I cannot accept my hon. Friend's Amendment as it stands, first, because we cannot consider Equity on its own. I know that the Amendment is not limited to Equity alone, but before we can decide what we can do, if anything, we must trawl very thoroughly to try to get a more comprehensive view than we have at present of all the other possible candidates for special treatment. We shall not be exhaustive in that, but we must have a careful look.
While we would wish to find some exemption here to meet this and other genuine special cases, we are determined not to provide a door which is so easy to open that in practice we defeat a major principle of the Bill, namely, the right to belong to a union or not to belong to a union and all that goes with that. We must survey the subject more carefully than we have yet been able to do in the light of representations put before us.
I am not attracted to the idea that the Secretary of State should have the responsibility of defining definitions. This sort of decision should not be a political 875 decision taken by Ministers, though they may be answerable to the House. This is a principle which we are maintaining in other parts of the Bill. Sometimes we have known, for example, in monopoly references that it is not easy to make Ministers answerable in practice when one thing is dealt with in one way and another in a different way. We should seek to find some other body, such as the National Industrial Relations Court, which could determine by criteria which are exceptional cases and which are not. That is another reason why I cannot accept the Amendment as it stands at present. Nevertheless, I assure my hon. Friend that I will consider this matter, because we believe that there is a case here which we should like to relieve as much as possible. I cannot make a categorical promise about this. But I will consider it in the spirit of making a genuine attempt to bring forward on Report an Amendment which I believe will be acceptable.
§ Mr. Rees-DaviesWould that also include the Writers' Guild and their problems, which are rather analogous to those of Equity?
§ Mr. CarrI thought that I had made it clear that we could not consider somethink which applied to Equity only. It must be standards by which other people can come and be judged. The cases mentioned by my hon. Friend would have to come and be judged from those standards.
§ Sir Harmar NichollsWhile not wishing to reject the spirit of my right hon. Friend's reply, I should have liked him to be a little more specific. I take it that there will be something on the Order Paper on Report stage. I know him well enough and understand his methods to know that when he uses words such as those he has used, something will flow from them. But if it is the case that he finds it impossible to find words—he has given an explanation where he may find that difficult—I should like another opportunity of finding the words myself. However, I should prefer him to do that. The attendance of the Committee in no way reflects the overwhelming interest in this matter. I have the authority of the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg) and other hon. Mem- 876 bers, to let the right hon. Gentleman know that they support entirely the arguments put forward and suggestions made I am sorry that hon. Gentlemen opposite are suggesting that at this stage we should push the matter to a vote. Perhaps the difference is that they are after a bit of propaganda but I am after results in a worth-while manner. I hope that my right hon. Friend can go to the Dispatch Box for one more second to say that we can expect some words of his at the Report stage in the general direction of those which I have used.
§ Mr. James Dempsey (Coatbridge and Airdrie)The right hon. Gentleman has made it clear that he will have no exception to the principle already decided. The Amendment asks for such an exception. There is an obvious bridge which cannot be crossed. Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that in the circumstances the matter should be put to a Division?
§ Sir Harmar NichollsI am not as pessimistic as the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey). He must be optimistic if he has a good case. We have a very good case and we are entitled to be optimistic.
§ Mr. CarrThere is a saying that exceptions prove the rule. But they must be real exceptions and they cannot be limited to one particular case. I cannot promise my hon. Friend categorically to put something down on the Order Paper at Report Stage, because I could not do so unless I were satisfied that it did the job. I can promise him only that I will look further into the matter with the intention of so doing. But obviously I cannot fulfil that intention unless I can honestly comment to the Committee that it is a sound Amendment. I hope that we shall find something appropriate, and I shall seek hard to find it, but I cannot promise that I will find it until I have found it.
§ Mr. PardoeThe- right hon. Gentleman has not given a satisfactory answer because he has not committed himself to what will be on the Order Paper for the further proceedings. Indeed, he has not replied in any way to the points which I made. I should have thought that the Amendment was a way out tor him. It widened the matter. It may have widened it too much for some hon. Gentlemen opposite.
877 I accept, as does the right hon. Gentleman, the principle that a man may be allowed to opt out of union membership. I support him entirely on that principle. But surely the right hon. Gentleman is not denying that in some cases the closed shop is a good and efficient arrangement. There ought to be a system written into the Bill whereby the right hon. Gentleman can exercise discretion.
I disagree totally with the right hon. Gentleman's view that it should not be left to the Secretary of State or Parliament to discuss this. The idea of setting up an ad hoc committee to take over the democratic rights and responsibilities of this House has been in existence for far too long. This should be a political decision and not an economic or a legal decision. How can any kind of court decide whether a specific case should be exempted? It is for the Secretary of State, or future Secretaries of State, and politicians to make the initial judgment and for Parliament to decide, through an affirmative Resolution, as it does on the information put before it by the Monopolies Commission. I put all these proposals to the right hon. Gentleman, but he did not reply.
§ 6.30 p.m.
§ Mr. Eric S. Heffer (Liverpool, Walton)The Opposition are totally opposed to the whole idea that the closed shop, under any circumstances, should not be allowable. But we recognise that there is a real problem for certain unions in that, if the closed shop principle is not allowable, not only will those unions be crippled, as all unions will be generally, but they will be put out of existence.
It is not only Equity which is in that situation but a number of other unions. We heard yesterday an excellent speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) about the National Union of Seamen. Whilst making it absolutely clear that we are totally opposed to the Government's policy, we stress that it is a matter of life or death for some unions. It may be that the union membership in a factory, which is not in casual employment in the sense of Equity, the N.U.S.—or those employed in the construction industry—is in a somewhat different situation, but the principle which the Government are pursuing is totally wrong.
878 The right hon. Gentleman agrees that this is a difficult problem. However, it is of the Government's own making. They have dug the trench into which they are sinking because of the policy that they have pursued.
The right hon. Gentleman is clearly fascinated by legal frameworks. He suggests that he should not accept responsibility for any exemptions and that they should be left to a court of law, the proposed National Industrial Relations Court. How absurd can we get? How can the law enter industrial relations? It is clear that in on circumstances can we accept that situation and, in view of the fact that it does not look as though there will be a vote—
§ Mr. Arthur Lewis (West Ham, North)Why not?
§ Mr. HefferI do not know. It is a matter for the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls). But when the Bill comes back on Report, we shall look carefully at the situation, and we shall want to know precisely what is being done to overcome this problem for the unions concerned.
In any event, it would be far better if the right hon. Gentleman accepted the view of the Opposition that there is no need for this type of provision. It would be much better if he decided, on the basis of the arguments which have been presented in the past two days, to withdraw his opposition to the closed shop, pre-entry or otherwise, and to allow the situation to continue without interference.
That is the view of the Opposition. I will not reply to many of the comments which have been made in this debate. The attitude of some hon. Gentlemen opposite to trade unions are such that it is almost impossible for some of us to understand. I think that we come back to the point made in that brilliant speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, All Saints (Mr. Walden) yesterday that, in a sense, it is like the deaf talking to the deaf. One side does not seem to understand the other. It is about time that hon. Gentlemen opposite understood that, on matters like 100 per cent. trade unionism and the right of trade unions to have collective agreements based upon the closed shop, we on this side have deep feelings.
§ Mr. Rees-DaviesBefore the hon. Gentleman sits down, will he answer one question?
§ Mr. HefferI have sat down.
§ Sir Harmar NichollsI was so impressed with the sincerity of my right hon. Friend and the clear impression that he gave that he will look into this matter with the genuine idea of finding an answer that I propose to ask to withdraw the Amendment. However, before I do that, perhaps I might give some advice to hon. Gentlemen opposite, especially to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer). They claim to be great negotiators. Their whole argument is that they understand these matters since they have spent their lives negotiating and have won greatly improved conditions for their members. They understand the tactics. They know how to use the climate. They excel in these matters. That is their case. Let us hear a few examples of it. As a businessman, I have some experience of negotiators. Anyone who knows how to negotiate recognises that there are occasions when it is good to get one foot in the door—
§ Mrs. CastleWe are under a guillotine.
§ Sir Harmar NichollsThe right hon. Lady will not shut me up. She has a nasty temper and a silly approach to these matters. She does not deserve the support of her hon. Friends. She is a parliamentary wash-out, as she has proved. I have no time for the right hon. Lady.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite should use their skill as negotiators and remember that occasionally it is good to get one foot in the door. Let us get this Equity foot in the door. From that, we may be able to get in the other one.
I have great faith that something will come of this Amendment and that my right hon. Friend intends to consider the matter with the genuine aim of finding an answer. In view of that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Deputy ChairmanThe next Amendment selected is No. 500, in page 4, line 39, leave out subsection 4.
§ Mr. HefferUnder protest, in view of the fact that we are operating under a guillotine, I do not intend to move that Amendment.
§
Amendment proposed, No. 502, in page 4, line 44, at end insert:
(4A) Paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to a person employed as a seaman on a seagoing British ship having a gross registered tonnage of 80 tons or more, including a person ordinarily employed as a seaman who is employed on, or, on about such a ship in port by the owner or charterer of the ship to do work of a kind ordinarily done by a seaman on such a ship while it is in port.—[Mr. Heffer.]
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The Committee proceeded to a Division and The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN having directed that the doors be locked—
§ Mr. Russell Kerr (Feltham)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Miss Harvie Anderson. A number of hon. Members, including myself, were prevented by the presence of Conservative Members, I am sure quite unintentionally, from reaching the door before it was closed on your instruction. Therefore, may I ask that the Division be called again in order that we may have a proper vote, properly recorded?
§ The Deputy Chairman (Miss Harvie Anderson)Order. The hon. Gentleman will know that the full time was given for entry to the Lobbies and that the Division is therefore in order.
§ Mr. KerrWith great respect, Miss Harvie Anderson, I think that you possibly missed the substance of my complaint, which was that I would have been in good time before the closing of the door but for the physical presence of Conservative Members preventing a number of us from entering the Lobby.
§ The Deputy ChairmanIt was clear that there were a number of Members behind the Bar likely to vote in each Lobby, and the Chair would judge that each had equal chances of getting through the door in adequate time.
§ Mr. Joseph Ashton (Bassetlaw)(seated and covered): Further to that point of order. The reason why it was not possible to get into the Ayes Lobby was that the Conservative Whip had his 881 arm across the door stopping people coming round the door. The consequent congestion behind the door prevented hon. Members going through it, because there was no exit where Members nod their heads.
§ The Deputy ChairmanOrder. The Chair had the door in question in view and did not see exactly that which was depicted by the hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. James Callaghan (Cardiff, South-East)(seated and covered): There is a very serious point here that I should like to put to you, Miss Harvie Anderson. The Government Whip was trying to ease congestion. He put his arm across the exit door so as not to allow anybody else into a passage that was clearly congested. But the effect was to stop people getting in through the door. With respect to you, I do not think that you could have seen what was happening outside. I do not complain about the Whip's action, because it was intended to be helpful, but it created pressure inside the door. I put it to you very seriously that it would be fair to conduct the vote again.
§ Sir Gerald Nabarro (Worcestershire, South)Not on your life.
§ The Deputy ChairmanOrder. With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, the leisurely procession that the Chair observed gave the clear impression to the Chair that there was no undue haste towards the doors which were being locked, and that there was no such pressure on the door to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred.
§ 6.45 p.m.
§ Mr. CallaghanMay I put to you, Miss Harvie Anderson, with respect, that in the 26 years I have been here I have never known a Government Whip attempt to restrain Members who have passed the Clerk and recorded their names from moving out of the Lobby. I know that he did it in good faith, but the consequence was that, although it may be your impression that it was a leisurely procession, as I stumbled up there, that was not my impression. Whatever the impression, pressure was created in there that pre-vented Members from moving into the Lobby, and it is that which, with respect, I believe requires you to reconsider whether the vote should be taken again.
§ The Deputy ChairmanOrder. I think that the right hon. Gentleman has re-emphasised what I have already made plain, that there was no pressure on the door in question at the time concerned, and I think that he would agree that it happened to be a door in full view of the Chair and the Table. [Interruption.] Order. I inform the hon. Members for Cannock (Mr. Cormack) and Lancaster (Mrs. Kellett), who are seeking to raise points of order, that they are not suitably covered.
§ Mr. Russell Kerr(seated and covered): With great respect, Miss Harvie Anderson, may I ask that you send for Mr. Speaker? This is not an attempt to make party capital, but I think that there is a genuine misapprehension as to what happened. Perhaps we should have someone to whom we can appeal to decide where the best interests of the Committee lie.
§ The Deputy ChairmanOrder. Much as the Chair might wish to send for Mr. Speaker, and share the hon. Gentleman's views, it would not be in order to do so.
§ Mr. Charles Pannell (Leeds, West)(seated and covered): I should be glad if, through the Clerk, you would consult the precedents on this, Miss Harvie Anderson. I have a clear recollection that in the 1950-51 Parliament, at the time when we were being harried to death, the then Member for Aberdeen-shire, East complained that he was disadvantaged and pushed against his will through the wrong Lobby. The Speaker was sent for, and his clear Ruling was that if any one Member—one Member— were disadvantaged and there was a great dispute of evidence, the Division must be called again. I think that this is a matter of such importance that, with very great respect, I suggest that you send for Mr. Speaker.
§ The Deputy ChairmanOrder. I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman should take the view that it would be appropriate to do so. The Chair is in the Service of the Committee in these matters, and if the Committee seeks to have another Division, with adequate evidence that there was any form of obstruction, the Chair will so concede. All that the Chair has said so far, in response to what the Committee has put 883 before it, is that evidence of no such obstruction has been suggested adequately to date.
§ Mr. Edward Short (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central)(seated and covered): Since you require some evidence, Miss Harvie Anderson, are you aware that I was injured trying to get through the door? I now have a bleeding arm, as I can show you. Is that not sufficient?
§ The Deputy ChairmanOrder. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman should have apparently suffered in that way. I think that he will agree that he is a little confused. I happened to observe him personally, and my observation sug-
§ gested that he was trying to go through another door.
§ Mrs. Elaine Kellett (Lancaster)(seated and covered): I was actually standing alongside the ex-Prime Minister when the Labour file was going very slowly, and he said, "Pass the word along to move faster".
§ The Deputy ChairmanOrder. I do not think that there is any useful purpose to be served in continuing this discussion. In view of the representations made, I am perfectly prepared to call the Division again, which I now do.
§ The Committee divided,: Ayes 266, Noes 295.
887| Division No. 85. | AYES | [6.54 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Doig, Peter | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Albu, Austen | Dormand, J. D. | Hunter, Adam |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | lrvine, Rt. Hn. SirArthur (Edge Hill) |
| Alten, Scholefield | Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Janner, Greville |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | Driberg, Tom | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas |
| Ashley, Jack | Duffy, A. E. P. | Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras, S.) |
| Ashton, Joe | Dunn, James A. | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) |
| Atkinson, Norman | Dunnett, Jack | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Eadie, Alex | John, Brynmor |
| Barnes, Michael | Edelman, Maurice | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) |
| Barnett, Joel | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-HuH, W.) |
| Beaney, Alan | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Ellis, Tom | Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Brigeton) | English Michael | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Bidwelf, Sydney | Evans, Fred | Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Fernyhough, E. | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood) | Kaufman, Gerald |
| Booth, Albert | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Kelley, Richard |
| Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Kerr, Russell |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Foley, Maurice | Kinnock, Neil |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Foot, Michael | Lamble, David |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Ford, Ben | Lamond, James |
| Buchan, Norman | Forrester, John | Latham, Arthur |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow Springburn) | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Lawson, George |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Freeson, Reginald | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Galpern, Sir Myer | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Garrett, W. E. | Leonard, Dick |
| Cant, R. B. | Gilbert, Dr. John | Lestor, Miss Joan |
| Carmichael, Neil | Ginsburg, David | Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold |
| Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) | Golding, John | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) | Gorden Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Gourlay, Harry | Lipton, Marcus |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Grant, George (Morpeth) | Lomas, Kenneth |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | Loughlin, charles |
| Cohen, Stanley | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) |
| Coleman Donald | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) |
| Concannon, J. D. | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hamilton, James (Bothwelf) | McBride, Neil |
| Corbet Mrs. Freda | Hamling, William | McCartney, Hugh |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) | McElhone, Frank |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Hardy, Peter | McGuire, Michael |
| Cronin John | Harper, Joseph | Mackenzie, Gregor |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.) | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mackie, John |
| Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) | Hart. Rt. Hn. Judith | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hattersley Roy | Maclennan, Robert |
| Darling, Rt. Hn. George | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Davidson, Arthur | Heffer, Eric S. | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Davies, Denzil (Llaneffi) | Hilton, W. S. | MacPherson, Macolm |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Horam, John | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Mallalieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfiels, E.) |
| Davies, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Marks, Kenneth |
| Deakins, Eric | Huckfield, Leslie | Marquand, David |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Delargy, H. J. | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | Meacher, Michael |
| Dempsey, James | ||
| Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Prescott, John | Strang, Gavin |
| Mendelson, John | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Mikardo, Ian | Price, William (Rugby) | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Millan, Bruce | Probert, Arthur | Swain, Thomas |
| Miller, Dr. M. S. | Rankin, John | Taverne, Dick |
| Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Reed, D. (Sedgefield) | Thomas, Rt. Hn.George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Molloy, William | Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Rhodes, Geoffrey | Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.) |
| Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Richard, Ivor | Tinn, James |
| Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Tomney, Frank |
| Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy(Caernarvon) | Tomey, Tom |
| Moyle, Roland | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Tuck, Raphael |
| Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Roderick, CaerwynE. (Br'c'n & Radnor) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Murray, Ronald King | Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) | Varley, Eric G. |
| Ogden, Eric | Roper, John | Wainwright, Edwin |
| O'Halloran, Michael | Rose, Paul B. | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| O'Malley, Brian | Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) | Wallace, George |
| Oram, Bert | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) | Watkins, David |
| Orbach, Maurice | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) | Weitzman, David |
| Orme, Stanley | Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Oswald, Thomas | Short, Mrs. Renee (W'hampton, N. E.) | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) | White, James (Glasgow, Pollok) |
| Padley, Walter | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) | Whitehad, Phillip |
| Paget, R. T. | Sillars, James | Whitlock, William |
| Palmer, Arthur | Silverman, Julius | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles | Skinner, Dennis | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Pardoe, John | Small, William | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Parker, John (Dagenham) | Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) | Spearing, Nigel | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)) |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Spriggs, Leslie | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred | Stallard, A. W. | |
| Pendry, Tom | Steel, David | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Pentland, Norman | Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham) | Mr. Alan Fitch and |
| Perry, Ernest G. | Stoddart, David (Swindon) | Mr. Ernest Armstrong. |
| Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John | |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Clegg, Walter | Glyn, Dr. Alan |
| Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian | Cockeram, Eric | Goodhart, Philip |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Cooke, Robert | Goodhew, Victor |
| As tor, John | Cooper, A. E. | Gorst, John |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Cordle, John | Gower, Raymond |
| Awdry, Daniel | Cormack, Patrick | Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Costain, A. P. | Gray, Hamish |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Critchley, Jullan | Green, Alan |
| Balniel, Lord | Crouch, David | Grieve, Percy |
| Batsford, Brian | Crowder, F. P. | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Curran, Charles | Grylls, Michael |
| Bell, Ronald | Dalkeith, Earl of | Gummer, Selwyn |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) | Gurden, Harold |
| Benyon, W. | d-Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | d-Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack | Hall, John (Wycombe) |
| Biffen, John | Dean, Paul | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Digby, Simon Wingfield | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Blaker, Peter | Dixon, Piers | Hannam, John (Exeter) |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.) | Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) |
| Body, Richard | Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) |
| Boscawen, Robert | Drayson, G. B. | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Bowden, Andrew | Dykes, Hugh | Hastings, Stephen |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Eden, Sir John | Havers, Michael |
| Braine, Bernard | Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Hawkins, Paul |
| Bray, Ronald | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Brews, John | Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Heseltine, Michael |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Emery, Peter | Hicks, Robert |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Eyre, Reginald | Higgins, Terence L. |
| Brown Sir Edward (Bath) | Farr, John | Hiley, Joseph |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Fell, Anthony | Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) |
| Bryan, Paul | Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | Hill, James (Southampton, Test) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) | Fidler, Michael | Holland, Philip |
| Buck, Antony | Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) | Holt, Miss Mary |
| Burden, F. A. | Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) | Hordern, Peter |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Hornby, Richard |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray & Nairn) | Fookes, Miss Janet | Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia |
| Carlisle, Mark | Foster, Sir John | Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) |
| Carr Rt. Hn. Robert | Fowler, Norman | Howell, David (Guildford) |
| Channon, Paul | Fox, Marcus | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) |
| Chapman, Sydney | Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) | Hunt, John |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Fry, Peter | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Churchill, W. S. | Gardner, Edward | Inemonger, T. L. |
| Churchill, W. S. | Gibson-Watt, David | James, David |
| Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Money, Emte | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington |
| Jessel, Toby | Monks, Mrs. Connie | Soref, Harold |
| Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Monro, Hector | Speed, Keith |
| Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | Montgomery, Fergus | Spence, John |
| Jopling, Michael | More, Jasper | Sproat, lain |
| Joseph, St. Hn. Sir Keith | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. | Stainton, Keith |
| Keliett, Mrs. Elaine | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Mudd, David | Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper) |
| Kilfedder, James | Murton, Oscar | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Kimball, Marcus | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Stokes, John |
| King, Eveyin (Dorset, S.) | Neave, Airey | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Sutcliffe, John |
| Kinsey, J. R. | Normanton, Tom | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Kirk, Peter | Nott, John | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Kitson, Timothy | Onslow, Cranley | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Knight, Mrs. Jill | Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally | Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.) |
| Knox, David | Osborn, John | Tebbit, Norman |
| Lambton, Antony | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | Temple, John M. |
| Lane, David | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret |
| Langford-Hoft, Sir John | Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) |
| Legge-Bourtoe, Sir Harry | Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| Le Marchant, Spencer | Peel, John | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Percival, Ian | Tilney, John |
| Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Peyton, Rt. Hn. John | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Longden, Gilbert | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Trew, Peter |
| Loveridge, John | Pink, R. Bonner | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| McAdden, Sir Stephen | Pounder, Rafton | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| MacArthur, Ian | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Vaughan, Dr. Gerard |
| McCrindle, R. A. | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Waddington, David |
| McLaren, Martin | Proudfoot, Wilfred | Walder David (Clitheroe) |
| Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| McMaster, Stanley | Quennell, Miss J. M. | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Dedrek |
| Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) | Raison, Timothy | Wall, Patrick |
| McNair-Wilson, Michael | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter | Walters, Dennis |
| McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) | Redmond, Robert | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Maddan, Martin | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Madel, David | Rees, Peter (Dover) | Weatherill Bernard |
| Maginnis, John E. | Rees-Davies, W. R. | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Marten, Neil | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Mather, Carol | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | Wiggin Jerry |
| Maude, Angus | Ridsdale, Julian | Wilkinson John |
| Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Mawby, Ray | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Rost, Peter | Woodnutt Mark |
| Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Russell, Sir Ronald | Worslev Marcus |
| Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | St. John-Stevas, Norman | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | Younger Hn. George |
| Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W) | Shelton, William (Clapham) | |
| Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Simeons, Charles | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Moate, Roger | Sinclair, Sir George | Mr. Tim Fortescue and |
| Molyneaux, James | Skeet, T. H. H. | Mr. Hugh Rossi. |
§ 7.0 p.m.
§ The Deputy ChairmanThe next Amendment is No. 422, in page 5, line 8, at end insert 'without loss of earnings' standing in the name of the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle). Mr. Heffer.
§ Mr. HefferIn view of the circumstances that we are in because of the guillotine, I wish to say, under protest "not moved".
§ Amendment No. 464 made: In page 5, line 10, leave out 'of employment' and insert 'with his employer'.—[The Solicitor-General]
§ The Solicitor-GeneralI beg to move, Amendment No. 497, in page 5, line 11, at end add:
(6) In subsections (1), (2) and (5) of this section any reference to a trade union shall 888 be construed as including a reference to an organisation of workers which is for the time being entered in the provisional register.This is not an Amendment to which I have spoken before and I owe the Committee a brief explanation. The Amendment adds an additional paragraph to Clause 5 so as to extend the provisions in respect of the right to belong to a trade union when trade unions are provisionally registered, as foreshadowed in Clauses 74 to 76, so that trade unions which, on the passing of the Bill, move on to the provisional register by virtue of their presence on the old register, or those that apply for inclusion on the provisional register, will have extended to them and their members the rights set out in subsection (1), (2) and (5) of Clause 5. I commend the Amendment to the Committee.
§ Amendment agreed to.
889§ [Sir ROBERT GRANT-FERRIS in the Chair]
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
§ Mr. HefferThe circumstances which we face are, of course, very difficult for the Opposition. We wanted to have a serious scrutiny of the Bill Clause by Clause, and later we hope that at least we shall be able to reach Clause 11, the agency shop issue, so that there may be some serious discussion on it before we reach the period of the guillotine. Therefore, I shall be extremely brief on this Motion.
We believe that Clause 5 deals a serious blow to the trade union movement because it hits at one of the most fundamental principles on which the trade union movement is based—the right of 100 per cent. trade unionism, either through the pre-entry or post-entry closed shop or whatever one might call it.
I want to speak about the closed shop because there is a great deal of confusion on the matter. As far as the closed shop is concerned, the basic concept of the trade union movement is 100 per cent. trade unionism and, of course, the closed shop does not necessarily follow, in every case, the pre-entry closed shop or 100 per cent. trade unionism. We regard Clause 5(l)(b) as a most serious infringement of the fundamental rights of trade unionists and the trade union movement. There are other aspects of the Clause which should have been dealt with in great detail but which were not and could not be reached.
§ Mr. Tom King (Bridgwater) rose—
§ Mr. HefferI am sorry. I hope that I am not being discourteous to the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Tom King), out, frankly, we wish to make progress.
§ Mr. King rose—
§ Mr. HefferIf my hon. Friends will also let me say "No", we shall make pogress. I appreciate their support on this matter, but I am saying "No" to the hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. Arthur LewisI have sat here quietly.
§ Mr. HefferI appreciate my hon. Friend's support. The part of that Clause which is very important and which ought to have been discussed at some length is subsection(5)(a) and 5(b) which can have a detrimental effect on those who are trade unionists and members of local authorities. I do not think that people have gone into that sufficiently. It is a very important principle with which we have not been able to deal in detail. We are totally opposed to this Clause and I shall invite my hon. and right hon. Friends to oppose it.
§ Mr. Kenneth LewisI tabled Amendment No. 493, which was not selected. I should like the Minister to have a look at this and come back on Report after considering the point that I make there. My point is that in subsection (2)(b) there are the words:
to dismiss, penalise or otherwise discriminateThis says that an employer must not dismiss, penalise or otherwise discriminate against a worker. The words are then repeated in subsection (3)(a) and this gives the right to the employer to dismiss, penalise or otherwise discriminate against a worker.I could go into the reasons why I think in that case those words should be taken out. To save time I will simply say that if we give the employer a right to discipline in this way we may cause further trouble in the works, leading to strikes and all the rest of that which we are trying to avoid through this Bill. We should take out the words in subsection (3) relating to "otherwise discriminate against" and give the employer simply the right to dismiss, against which dismissal the employee would have the right of appeal in any case.
§ 7.15 p.m.
§ Mr. Charles Loughlin (Gloucestershire, West)I apologise to my hon. Friends because of course they do not want to spend a great deal of time discussing Clauses when there is a guillotine in operation. I do not know what the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Kenneth Lewis) was talking about. It was difficult to follow him. This Clause is fundamental to the rights of trade 891 unionists. Even working with the guillotine it is not within the remit of any member of the Labour party who is a Member of this House to allow the Clause to go by with the kind of speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) I am reluctant to criticise him because I have a great affection and respect for him.
This Clause is a part of the Bill which is of paramount importance for trade union movement. I want to be restrained in my language but this Clause typifies the attitude of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite towards the trade union movement. There are a number of new Members in the Committee and I notice that whenever a Member on this side was talking about the right of the trade unions to organise in a particular industry or factory, that seemed to engender hilarity among some new Members. They seemed to express consciously or unconsciously a violent antagonism to the trade union movement. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I have been in this House a number of years—
§ Mr. John Biggs-Davison (Chigwell)Too long.
§ Mr. LoughlinMany hon. Members opposite with whom I have had associations over the years have a great deal of sympathy for the trade union movement. What I am bothered about is the number of new Members opposite who have evinced an antagonism which I do not think is justified. Even if they do not like trade unions, if they have had any experience of industrial relations they must realise that whatever difficulties may exist between management and trade unions, British industry has to live with the movement. It will never be destroyed. If this Bill is not designed to destroy the trade union movement, then it unwittingly seeks to do so.
§ Mr. Norman Tebbit (Epping)Would the hon. Gentleman make it plain that his strictures of anti-trade unionism do not apply to me, since I am among the new intake of 1970. I am a trade unionist and have been for many years. While I can speak only for myself at any time, I should like to make it clear that I deeply resent that sort of wild accusation, which the hon. Gentleman should withdraw at once.
§ Mr. LoughlinI am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has made that intervention. [Interruption.] I hear one of my colleagues say "There's three of them." I think he meant three trade unionists on that side of the Committee. I am not interested in that but I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has stood up and identified himself in that way. As far as he is concerned I will withdraw any implied stricture.
I am like most hon. Members of this House—[HON. MEMBERS: "YOU are not."] No, I am better than most. Can I re-phrase that and say that I am like most people. That will exclude most hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. My statement was a reaction to what I saw and heard in the debate whenever the question of trade union membership was raised.
The Clause is important in two ways. First, it does not seek to destroy the trade union movement, but it will inevitably do so. Secondly, and much more important, it can be a major reason for industrial dispute. I beg the Secretary of State and the Government to recognise that once the closed shop is challenged, even though all the procedures are gone through and individual trade unions and shop stewards are subjected to fines, there will still be trade union members determined that under no circumstances will the Government or an employer frustrate their efforts to have a full closed shop. Any attempt to frustrate those efforts will cause industrial disputes. It is not in the interests of British industry that industrial disputes should arise from the Clause and I ask the Secretary of State, even at this stage when we are deciding how to vote on the Clause, to look at it again. I promise him that there will be more industrial disputes, more strikes, more disruptions and more damage done to the economy from an attempt to ban the closed shop than from any other issue that he or anyone else likes to raise.
§ Mr. Christopher Woodhouse (Oxford)I wish only to add one point to that raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Kenneth Lewis) relating to Clause 5(2)(b) and the words about dismissing, penalising or otherwise discriminating. What will be the position of a worker who takes the option under Clause 8 or Clause 9 not to be a member 893 of the trade union in the event of a dispute leading to an official strike? Will his employer be obliged to provide work for him during the strike—which will add to the bitterness of the dispute—or, if he does not do so, will he be guilty of a lockout against the worker and therefore of discrimination under Clause 5(2, b).
§ Mr. AshtonDoes the term "trade union activities" in Clause 5 include time off for attending to local council work, acting as a justice of the peace and similar activities?
§ Mr. R. CarrThis is a matter which has been in the past—and is at present— for local negotiation and collective bar-
§ gaining. We believe that in our Code of Practice we should, and shall, lay down guidelines for the facilities that should be given in connection with trade union activities; but matters of time off for participating in council work, voluntary work, and so on, cannot be legislated. This country has a high tradition for this sort of work, it can best be provided for in this way, and I think that is probably how the majority of the trade union movement would wish it to be left.
§ Question put, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill: —
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 290. Noes 261.
897| Division No. 86.] | AYES | [7.27 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Costain, A. P. | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Critchley, Julian | Hannam, John (Exeter) |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Crouch, David | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) |
| Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian | Crowder, F. P. | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Curran, Charles | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere |
| Astor, John | Dalkeith, Earl of | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) | Hastings, Stephen |
| Awdry, Daniel | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Havers, Michael |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | d''Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack | Hawkins, Paul |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Dean, Paul | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Balniet, Lord | Digby, Simon Wingfield | Heseltine, Michael |
| Batsford, Brian | Dixon, Piers | Hicks, Robert |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Higgins, Terence L. |
| Bell, Ronald | Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Hiley, Joseph |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Drayson, G. B. | Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) |
| Benyon, W. | du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Hill, James (Southampton, Test) |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Eden, Sir John | Holland, Philip |
| Biffen, John | Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Holt, Miss Mary |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Hordern, Peter |
| Blaker, Peter | Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.N.) | Hornby, Richard |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Emery, Peter | Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia |
| Body, Richard | Eyre, Reginald | Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) |
| Boscawen, Robert | Farr, John | Howell, David (Guildford) |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Fell, Anthony | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) |
| Bowden, Andrew | Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | Hunt, John |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Fidler, Michael | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Braine, Bernard | Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) | Iremonger, T. L. |
| Bray, Ronald | Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) | James, David |
| Brewis, John | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Fookes Miss Janet | Jessel, Toby |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Foster Sir John | Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Fowler, Norman | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Fox, Marcus | Jopling, Michael |
| Bryan, Paul | Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) | Kellett, Mrs. Elaine |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&M) | Fry, Peter | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Buck, Antony | Gardner, Edward | Kilfedder James |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Gilmour, lan (Norfolk, C.) | Kimball, Marcus |
| Burden, F. A. | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Glyn, Dr. Alan | King, Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray&Nalrn) | Goodhart, Philip | Kinsey, J. R. |
| Cartisle, Mark | Goodhew, Victor | Kirk Peter |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Gorst, John | Knight, Mrs. Jill |
| Channon, Paul | Gower, Raymond | Knox, David |
| Chapman, Sydney | Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | Lambton, Antony |
| Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Gray, Hamish | Lane, David |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Green, Alan | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Churchill, W. S. | Grieve, Percy | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry |
| Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Le Marchant, Spencer |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Grylls, Michael | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Cockeram, Eric | Gummer, Selwyn | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) |
| Cooke, Robert | Gurden, Harold | Longden, Gilbert |
| Cooper, A. E. | Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) | Loveridge, John |
| Cordle, John | Hall, John (Wycombe) | McAdden, Sir Stephen |
| Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | MacArthur, lan |
| Cormack, Patrick | McCrindle, R. A. | |
| McLaren, Martin | Peel, John | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Percival, Ian | Sutcliffe, John |
| McMaster, Stanley | Peyton, Rt. Hn. John | Swain, Thomas |
| Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| McNair-Wilson, Michael | Pink, R. Bonner | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) |
| McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) | Pounder, Rafton | Taylor, Robert (Croydon N. W.) |
| Maddan, Martin | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Tebbit, Norman |
| Madel, David | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Temple, John M. |
| Maginnis, John E. | Proudfoot, Wilfred | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret |
| Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) |
| Marten, Neil | Quenell, Miss J. M. | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) |
| Mather, Carol | Raison, Timothy | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon S.) |
| Maude, Angus | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James | Tilney, John |
| Maucling, Rt. Hn. Reginald | Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Mawby, Ray | Redmond, Robert | Trew, Peter |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Reed, Lauranoe (Bolton, E.) | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Pees, Peter (Dover) | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Rees-Davies, W. R. | Vaughan, Dr. Gerard |
| Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | Waddington, David |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Mitchen, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire,W) | Ratey, Hn. Nicholas | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Moate, Roger | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Molyneaux, James | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Wall, Patrick |
| Money, Ernie | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Walters, Dennis |
| Monro, Hector | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Ward, Dame Inene |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Rost, Peter | Warren, Kenneth |
| More, Jasper | Russell, Sir Ronald | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. | St. John-Stevas, Norman | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Mudd, David | Shelton, William (Clapham) | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Murton, Oscar | Simeons, Charles | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Sinclair, Sir George | Wilkinson, John |
| Neave, Airey | Skeet, T. H. H. | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Normanton, Tom | Sonef, Harold | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| Nott, John | Speed, Keith | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Onslow, Cranley | Spence, John | Worsley, Marcus |
| Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally | Sproat, lain | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Osborn, John | Stainton, Keith | Younger, Hn. George |
| Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | Stanbrook, Ivor | |
| Page, Graham (Crosby) | Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. | Mr. Walter Clegg and |
| Pardoe, John | Stoloes, John | Mr. Tim Fortescue. |
| Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) | ||
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Concannon, J. D. | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) |
| Albu, Austen | Conlan, Bernard | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Allen, Scholefield | Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Foley, Maurice |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | Crawshaw, Richard | Foot, Michael |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Cronin, John | Ford, Ben |
| Ashley, Jack | Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) | Forrester, John |
| Ashton, Joe | Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven) | Fraser, John (Norwood) |
| Atkinson, Norman | Dalyell, Tam | Freeson, Reginald |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Darling, Rt. Hn. George | Galpern, Sir Myer |
| Barnes, Michael | Davidson, Arthur | Garrett, W. E. |
| Bamett, Joel | Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) | Gilbert, Dr. John |
| Beaney, Alan | Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Ginsburg, David |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Gourlay, Harry |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Deakins, Eric | Grant, George (Morpeth) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Delargy, H. J. | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) |
| Booth, Albert | Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) |
| Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) | Dempsey, James | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) |
| Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Doig, Peter | Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Dormand, J. D. | Hardy, Peter |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | Harper, Joseph |
| Buchan, Norman | Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Driberg, Tom | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Duffy, A. E. P. | Hattersley, Roy |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Dunn, James A. | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis |
| Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Dunnett, Jack | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Cant, R. B. | Eadie, Alex | Hilton, W. S. |
| Carmichael, Neil | Edelman, Maurice | Horam, John |
| Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield) | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles) | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Ellis, Tom | Huckfieid, Leslie |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | English, Michael | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Evans, Fred | Hughes, Mark (Durham) |
| Cohen, Stanley | Fernyhough, E. | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) |
| Coleman, Donald | Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Hunter, Adam | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) |
| lrvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill) | Meacher, Michael | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) |
| Janner, Greville | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Jay Rt. Hn. Douglas | Mendelson, John | Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.) | Mikardo, Ian | Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.) |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Millan, Bruce | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| John, Brynmor | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Sillars, John |
| Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Molloy, William | Silverman, Julius |
| Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S.) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Small, William |
| Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) | Spearing, Nigel |
| Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) | Moyle, Roland | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Stallard, A. W. |
| Kaufman, Gerald | Murray, Ronald King | Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham) |
| Kelley, Richard | Ogden, Eric | Stoddart, David (Swindon) |
| Kerr, Russell | O'Halloran, Michael | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John |
| Kinnock, Neil | O'Malley, Brian | Strang, Gavin |
| Lambie, David | Orbach, Maurice | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Lamond, James | Orme, Stanley | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Latham, Arthur | Oswald, Thomas | Swain, Thomas |
| Lawson, George | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) | Tavenne, Dick |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Padley, Walter | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Paget, R. T. | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Leonard, Dick | Palmer, Arthur | Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.) |
| Lestor, Miss Joan | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles | Tinn, James |
| Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold | Parker, John (Dagenham) | Tomney, Frank |
| Lewis, Arthur(W. Ham, N.) | Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) | Torney, Tom |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Pavitt Laurie | Tuck, Raphael |
| Lipton Marcus | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred | Urwin, T. W. |
| Lornas, Kenneth | Pendry, Tom | Varley, Eric G. |
| Loughlin, Charles | Pentland, Norman | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Perry, Ernest G. | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. | Wallace, George |
| Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Prescott, John | Watkins, David |
| McBride, Neil | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) | Weitzman, David |
| McCartney, Hugh | Price, William (Rugby) | Wellbeloved, James |
| McElhone Frank | Probert, Arthur | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| McGuire, Michael | Rankin, John | White, James (Glasgow, Pollok) |
| Mackenzie, Gregor | Reed, D. (Sedgefield) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Mackie, John | Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) | Whitlock, William |
| Mackintosh, John P. | Rhodes, Geoffrey | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Maclennan, Robert | Richard, Ivor | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| McNamara, J. Kevin | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| MacPherson, Malcolm | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n & R'dnor) | |
| Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E). | Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Marks, Kenneth | Roper, John | Mr. John Golding and |
| Marquand, David | Rose, Paul B. | Mr. William Hamling. |
| Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard |
§ Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ [Sir ALFRED BROUGHTON in the Chair]