Commons Sitting of 28 January 1971

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EMPLOYMENT

    Redundancy Payments Act
    Mr. Boothasked the Secretary of State for Employment whether he will seek to amend the Redundancy Payments Act so as to prevent an employer who is reducing staff from transferring employees to other jobs and dismissing from those jobs employees who have served less than, or little more than, the minimum qualifying period under the Act, unless such transfers are provided for by an agreement between the employer and the trade unions representing those who are dismissed.
    The Minister of State, Department of Employment (Mr. Paul Bryan): No, Sir. Procedures for dealing with redundancies are a matter appropriate for voluntary negotiation.
    Mr. Booth: Can the Minister conceive of the resentment felt by a man who is sacked from a factory after a year's employment so that a man from a department which is to be closed down can be transferred into his job, solely because that man would, if dismissed, have a very high redundancy payments claim? Does he appreciate that this practice can militate against a man's chances of ever being employed long enough to have a proper redundancy entitlement? Will he consider whether its effect may be to establish the policy of last in, first out, on a much wider basis than has ever been contemplated hitherto?
    Mr. Bryan: I quite appreciate the situation that the hon. Gentleman described. I hope that it is not widespread, and I think that it probably is not, although I shall be glad to go into any cases he wishes to bring forward. I think that the general rule arrived at in negotiation between employer and employee is that those who arrive last, go first. In that case, what he said would not obtain in any well-run establishment. Negotiations between trade unions and employers would come to a proper arrangement on that.

    Unemployment
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for Employment what are the latest figures of unemployed in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and by regions within the United Kingdom.
    The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Carr): As the reply consists of a table of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Skinner: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the first month of this year more days have been lost through unemployment than were lost by strikes in the first 11 months of 1970? Is it not high time the Government got their priorities right, created more job opportunities, and stopped attacking the workers, who have created the biggest trade surplus in history?
    Mr. Carr: There are a lot of non sequiturs in that supplementary question. Of course the present unemployment figures are serious and should be taken seriously. But it is well known that, as history shows, there is a long time lag before changes in policy reflect themselves in unemployment figures. The current level of unemployment reflects the policies of the last Government.
    Mr. Bagier: Does the Minister agree that the figures will no doubt show an increase in unemployment in the regions and that the Government's policies, as outlined in yesterday's edition of The Times, seem to be having a standstill effect on new industrial opportunities going into the regions?
    Mr. Carr: I would not, because the new policies, good or bad, have not yet had time to have an effect one way or the other.
    Mr. Bagier: This is the effect.
    Mr. Carr: It certainly cannot be the effect as yet. The first requirement to deal with the unemployment situation is to control the present level of cost inflation. There can be no doubt that the extremely rapid rise in cost levels is seriously affecting the viability of many companies and, therefore, their ability both to employ people now and to invest to provide employment opportunities in the future.
    Mr. Kinnock: Is the Minister fully convinced of the efficacy of the Government's policies, such as they are, for dealing with unemployment? If he is, will he give us an undertaking that as a consequence of the policies in which he believes and which he put forward, there will be a fall in unemployment within a reasonable time—say, the next six months?
    Mr. Carr: The hon. Gentleman must address questions about regional policy to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and President of the Board of Trade.
    Mr. Hayhoe: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the greatest threat to employment comes from the fires of inflation which were lit by the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) and her right hon. and hon. Friends?
    Mr. Carr: That is indeed true. The House and the country must realise that just as one man's inflationary increase is another man's price increase, so it is another man's unemployment.
    Following is the information:

    TOTAL NUMBERS REGISTERED AS UNEMPLOYED AND PERCENTAGE RATES OF UNEMPLOYMENT AT 11TH JANUARY, 1971 (PROVISIONAL)

    Registered unemployed

    Percentage rate

    South East

    147,265

    1·9

    East Anglia

    18,353

    2·9

    South Western

    45,001

    3·4

    West Midlands

    56,915

    2·5

    East Midlands

    37,807

    2·7

    Yorkshire and Humberside

    67,285

    3·3

    North Western

    93,125

    3·1

    Northern

    67,573

    5·1

    Scotland

    115,114

    5·3

    Wales

    42,269

    4·3

    Great Britain

    690,707

    3·0

    Northern Ireland

    40,853

    7·9

    United Kingdom

    731,560

    3·1

    Disabled Persons Employment Acts (Prosecutions)
    Mr. Molloyasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many employers were prosecuted during 1970 under the Disabled Persons Employment Acts for failing to take or maintain their quota; and if he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Dudley Smith): None. Neither of these things by itself constitutes an offence under the Disabled Persons (Employment) Acts.
    Mr. Molloy: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is grave feeling in the organisations for the disabled that employers are dodging their responsibilities? Some Remploy officers feel this, and the disabled themselves feel that this is a most disgraceful state of affairs which is getting worse. Can the Minister give us an assurance that he is prepared to examine my claim that there is evasion, and that some employers are not taking up their full quota?
    Mr. Smith: Yes, Sir. Many employers fail to reach their quota because of the unsuitability of those disabled people who are available. But I accept the genuine concern on both sides of the House and I am taking urgent steps to extend our enforcement procedure in this matter. In future, it is proposed to inspect the records of employers much more frequently. We are also looking at other measures by which we can perhaps stimulate greater activity in the employment of the disabled.
    Mr. Scott: I am grateful to hear that my hon. Friend is seeking to improve the Department's enforcement policy, but this is a question not only of enforcement but of trying to persuade employers that to seek to fill their quota is a responsible attitude to take, to try to improve the deplorable record we have in the employment of the disabled.
    Mr. Smith: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I also hope to initiate talks with leaders in various areas of commerce with just this aim in view.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: Is the Minister satisfied that the present quota of 3 per cent. is enough, against the background

    787
    of an unemployment figure in excess of 11 per cent. for employable disabled people? As he is a ware, this is a deeply sensitive human problem. Does he agree that we should have a Green Paper on the whole question of the employment problems of disabled people, including the very important problem of access to places of employment?
    Mr. Smith: We are looking at all aspects, and perhaps in due course we shall be able to make an announcement. As to whether the quota of 3 per cent. is right, of course the figure could be increased, but we must be realistic. As my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington, South (Mr. Scott) said, the important thing is encouragement to get the right response. If we can fill the 3 per cent. I think that we shall be making very good progress.

    Employees (Small Firms)
    Mr. Carterasked the Secretary of State for Employment why information as to the number of employees employed by employers who employ a total of four persons or less is not available.
    Mr. Dudley Smith: This figure would be excessively expensive and time-Consuming to extract. It is known that the number is less than three million but may be nearer to one million.
    Mr. Carter: That is a staggering reply, particularly since this group of workers is specifically excluded under the unfair dismissal part of the Industrial Relations Bill. Will the Minister bear in mind that some of those workers, particularly agricultural workers, work in extremely precarious industries which are not known for having the best employers in the economy?
    Mr. Smith: Perhaps these matters can still be considered during the discussions on the Bill. There is an admirable precedent for what we are doing. The right hon. Lady proposed exactly the same thing in her Industrial Relations Bill.

    Conditions of Employment (Membership of a Trade Union)
    Mr. Allasonasked the Secretary of State for Employment what is his policy with regard to conditions of employment which require the membership of a trade union.
    Mr. R. Carr: The Industrial Relations Bill establishes a clear legal right to belong or not to belong to a trade union and provides remedies against actions aimed at preventing or deterring a worker from exercising this right or discriminating against him for so doing.
    Mr. Allason: Will my right hon. Friend draw the attention of British Transport Hotels Ltd. to this policy and urge it not to discharge employees whose only fault is that they are unwilling to join a union?
    Mr. Carr: At the moment, of course, all employers have to operate under the law as it stands, but I hope and imagine, particularly after our debate yesterday, that all employers will be aware of what the new policy is to be.
    Mr. Douglas: Following his reply, will the right hon. Gentleman issue publicity material to British Transport to give it guidance as to how it should encourage its employees to become members of trade unions?
    Mr. Carr: I hope that British Rail and all employers, as I said last night, will regard it as one of their tasks normally to encourage their employees to join their appropriate unions. I do not think it would help for the Government to lay down precisely how each employer should do this.

    Electricity Supply Industry (Dispute)
    Mr. Eadieasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many meetings were held by his Department in which they acted in the rôle of conciliators in the recent power dispute.
    Mr. R. Carr: I and my conciliation officers held eleven meetings with the unions and the employers during the course of the dispute affecting industrial staff in the Electricity Supply Industry.
    Mr. Eadie: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, which outlines that the Government are using the conciliation officers at their disposal. At what stage did he decide to use conciliation? Was there a time lag?
    Mr. Carr: No, Sir. It would have been inappropriate for me to have intervened before the industry's own machinery had broken down. The moment

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    it did break down, I was informed of the fact by both employers and unions, who both asked to come to see my Department, and meetings were fixed up immediately.
    Mr. Eadieasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many working days were lost as the result of the work-to-rule in the power workers' dispute.
    Mr. Bryan: Statistics of working days lost through industrial disputes relate only to stoppages of work and not to other forms of industrial action such as working to rule, nor are statistics available of days lost in establishments other than those in which the disputes occurred.
    Mr. Eadie: Will not the hon. Gentleman concede that working days were lost during the power strike and that there was considerable disruption in the economy? If he will concede that, can he inform us, in the light of experience, what future steps he is taking to ensure that there will be the minimum disruption as a consequence of any power strike if, for example, the unions reject the Wilberforce recommendations?
    Mr. Bryan: I do not think that the House will underestimate the number of hours lost in industry generally as a result of the work-to-rule. Everyone will concede that. Obviously, the Government look forward to every sort of eventuality and are ready for it. We hope that we shall not have to put these steps into action.
    Mr. Scott: Has there been any assessment of the total impact on national production caused by the work-to-rule? Is it not a nonsense, and a contradiction in terms, that action which causes danger to health and, indeed, to life is called a "work-to-rule"? Should not the rules in these circumstances change?
    Mr. Bryan: We have given a good deal of thought to the whole question of the amount of disruption and the hours of production lost in industry as a whole. It is impossible to get anything like an accurate figure in this respect without literally requiring a return from employers, and so on, which would not be possible. One can do no more than make one's own judgment.
    Mr. Thomas Cox: Bearing in mind the recent power dispute and statements made
    790
    in the House about it by hon. Members opposite, is the hon. Gentleman aware that many station superintendents in the electricity supply industry have since spoken in glowing terms of the co-operation they received from their workers during the dispute? Is it not time that the Government acknowledged this fact, which is contrary to the statements they were making during the dispute?
    Mr. Bryan: I do not think that the Government have made any derogatory remarks about power workers.
    Mr. Ashtonasked the Secretary of State for Employment what percentage of days lost in industrial disputes was lost by power station workers in 1969; and how this compares with the national average.
    Mr. Bryan: Separate figures are not available for power station workers but working days lost in the electricity industry accounted for just under 0·2 per cent. of all working days lost through stoppages in the United Kingdom in 1969. This represents about 45 days lost per 1,000 employees in the electricity industry compared with about 300 days lost per 1,000 employees in all industries and services.
    Mr. Ashton: As the hon. Gentleman's Answer shows, very great disruption can be caused in the power industry without workers going on strike. Can he tell us how his Industrial Relations Bill would have affected the dispute that took place before Christmas?
    Mr. Bryan: The question of how the Bill affects a single disruption of any sort is not a helpful way to approach it. As has been explained time and again in the debate on the Bill, its whole purpose is to provide a background that will in good time supply better negotiating machinery and more orderly collective bargaining. If we start from that, over a period of time we expect disputes to decrease in number and in severity.
    Mrs. Castle: If, as we are constantly told, it is essential to put industrial relations within a framework of law, surely the hon. Gentleman can tell the House how that framework would impinge on a particular, concrete situation. If not, what are we all wasting our time about?
    Mr. Bryan: May I then ask the right hon. Lady how—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—"In Place Of Strife" would have affected that dispute?
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Fernyhough: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I have heard your predecessors inform Ministers on several ocasions that it is not a Minister's privilege to ask questions but that it is his responsibility to answer them.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I join my predessor in deprecating points of order during Question Time. The content of an answer is not a matter for me. If a Minister chooses to put his answer in the form of a question, that is not a matter for me.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Would not my hon. Friend agree that the position for the future with power workers is greatly aggravated by the fact that the chairman of the nationalised industry has had an increase from £12,500 to £17,500 a year, being a 40 per cent. advance, and that the leader of the union, Mr. Chapple, has now given himself an advance of 42 per cent., after deprecating advances for senior civil servants? Is not that sheer, naked aggravation in an already difficult situation?
    Mr. Bryan: I do not know whether this information is relevant——
    Sir G. Nabarro: It is relevant.
    Mr. Bryan: If it is relevant, it will undoubtedly be considered by the Wilberforce Court of Inquiry.
    Mr. Orme: Does the Minister agree that the difference between the Treasury Civil Servants and Mr. Chapple is that the Treasury was opposing the 10 per cent. increase while Mr. Chapple was in favour of getting proper reward for his members?
    Mr. Bryan: I do not think that that has anything to do with the Question.

    Faversham (Brick Industry)
    Mr. Moateasked the Secretary of State for Employment what are the comparative figures for the number of persons employed in the brick industry in the
    792
    employment areas covered by the Faversham constituency in October, 1964, and June, 1970.
    Mr. Dudley Smith: The figures for June, 1970, should be available by the middle of the year. Until then, I cannot add to the reply given to a similar Question on 16th July, 1970, when I said that the number of those in employment in the Faversham, Sittingbourne and Sheerness Employment Exchange Areas in bricks, fireclay and refractory goods industries fell from about 500 at mid-1964 to about 200 at mid-1969.
    Mr. Moate: Will my hon. Friend accept that there was a continuing decline of this important local industry during the last year of the Labour Government and that this represents a very serious loss to an area which is suffering from higher than average unemployment? Is he aware that there is special need in certain areas of the South-East for the encouragement of new industries and a more generous granting of industrial development certificates?
    Mr. Smith: I accept that there has been a decline. My hon. Friend will appreciate that the latter part of his supplementary question is not for me. But I am informed that there are some signs of improvement in the brick industry generally, and perhaps the Faversham area will benefit from that.
    Mr. Selwyn Gummer: Does not my hon. Friend agree that, were we able to enter the Common Market, this area of the country would do very well and new industry would come to it?
    Mr. Smith: I should be getting into deep water if I started debating the Common Market on a question of this sort.

    Family Incomes Supplement (Workers' Wages)
    Mr. James Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Employment what arrangements he has made to enter into wage negotiations involving workers eligible for Family Incomes Supplement to ensure that wages will be increased substantially enough to save public expenditure on the supplement in relation to all save the largest families.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. David Howell): None, Sir.
    Mr. Hamilton: Will the hon. Gentleman persuade his right hon. Friend, in setting up the committees he is establishing at his Department, to give one of them the job of finding out where these lower-paid workers are and in what industries they are employed? Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is morally wrong to ask the taxpayers to subsidise employers who are paying wages which are, to all intents and purposes, below the living level? If such workers go on strike for justifiable wage increases, will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that, contrary to previous practice, the Government will make pronouncements aimed at the betterment of those workers' conditions?
    Mr. Howell: I take note of what the hon. Gentleman said. But I do not agree that the Family Incomes Supplement represents a subsidy by the taxpayers of lower-paid workers. We expect the supplement to affect only a small percentage of households.
    Mr. J. H. Osborn: Does it not mean that the higher wage and salary earners must contemplate a reduction because of the position of average income in this country?
    Mr. Howell: I am afraid that I am not clear about the point my hon. Friend is making, but it is true that, as long as there are real differentials, so long will there be lower-paid workers and a lower-paid workers' problem.
    Mr. John Fraser: Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that, when a wage claim is made to bring a person's wage up to at least £15 a week, the Department will support it, because it is a claim for a sum at which people can barely live, and that it will not lean on the unions to take less?
    Mr. Howell: As a general proposition, I cannot support something which might refer to a particular situation. If the hon. Gentleman is talking of the idea of a national minimum wage, then that is something which the Government are considering.

    Industrial Disputes (Pay)
    Mr. Hayhoeasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will list those industrial disputes concerned with pay which have led to strikes or other industrial action involving more than 10,000 employees since 1st July, 1970, and indicate those in which the claim for an increase had been first made before 1st June, 1970.
    Mr. Bryan: As the reply is somewhat lengthy I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Hayhoe: That is not a great deal of information upon which to base a supplementary Question.
    Mr. Speaker: Supplementaries are not compulsory.
    Mr. Hayhoe: May I ask whether the reply, when I see it, will indicate that many or some of these wage claims started before the election and that, therefore, the impact of this rush of substantial wage claims is the inheritance of six years of Labour Government and indicates just how bad conditions had become throughout industry, so that the unions involved felt it necessary to put these substantial wage claims forward?
    Mr. Bryan: Yes, Sir. The full answer will show that it is a fact rather than a debating point that the Government took over a situation of excessive claims that were likely to lead to disputes unless the employers made settlements which were bound to be inflationary.
    Mr. Sillars: Does not the hon. Gentleman recall that the first wage claim dealt with by the present Government was that of the doctors? Is it not fair and equitable that working people should base their wage claims on the 20 per cent. criterion laid down in that case by the Government?
    Mr. Bryan: That claim was not a once-a-year claim.
    Mr. Frederick Lee: When the Minister is producing his list, will he include those disputes which would not have taken place if the provisions of the Industrial Relations Bill had been in force?
    Mr. Bryan: That is not the Question I have been asked.
    Mr. Harold Walker: Did not the Prime Minister make a substantial contribution to the generation of inflationary pressures when on television in February and April, 1970, he said that wages in this country were low compared with other Western European countries and that he was in favour of high wages? Was not that an incitement?
    Mr. Bryan: I do not think that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite can slide away from their responsibilities in this way. The background to the question with which we are dealing is the situation starting at the beginning of last year when the Government were laying down a norm of 2½ per cent. to 4½ per cent. for 1970, which was absolutely meaningless against the background of wage settlements which were made.
    Mrs. Castle: Equally the Government cannot slide away from their ancestry. Is it not a fact that the present Government fought and won the election on the proposition that inflation could not be blamed on the wage demands of workers but on the level of prices and that the right way to cure it was not by trying to hold wage rates down, of which they accused the Labour Government, but by acting directly and immediately on prices? And did not the Government win the election on a lie?
    Mr. Bryan: At no time during the election campaign, or at any other time, did the Prime Minister give the slightest inclination that he would condone wage rises of the type that we have had recently.
    Following is the information:
    The following stoppages of work since 1st July, 1970 were the result of pay disputes and involved more than 10,000 employees: the national stoppage by dock workers between 13th and 31st July: the local authority manual workers' stoppage between 29th September and 13th November: the stoppage in the coal mining industry between 26th October and 20th November: and the current stoppage by Post Office workers. The dispute involving some municipal and company busmen led to stoppages in some areas and other industrial action
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    between 5th September and 21st November. Industrial action short of a strike was taken in three instances: by industrial staff in electricity supply from 7th to 14th December, by some employees in civil air transport from 14th December, and by members of the Fire Brigade Union from 17th December. In two cases, the claims were made before 1st June, 1970. That for local authority manual workers was first presented in April, 1970 and the latest in a series of claims which finally led to the stoppage by dock workers was presented in March, 1970.

    Strikes
    Mr. Hayhoeasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many strikes occurred in 1970; and by what percentage this figure exceeds the comparable figures for 1969 and 1964.
    Mr. R. Carr: There were 3,888 stoppages of work due to industrial disputes in 1970. This was an increase of 25 per cent. over 1969 and a 54 per cent. increase since 1964.
    Mr. Hayhoe: Will not these startling figures provide strong supporting reasons for the legislation which is now passing through the House in Committee? Could my right hon. Friend say what proportion of these stoppages were unofficial and what proportion official?
    Mr. Carr: I cannot offhand give the exact figures, but I am sure that I should not be far wrong if I said that about 95 per cent. of all industrial disputes were unofficial. As to the first part of my hon. Friend's question, the present situation does stress the urgent need for some action. The previous Government recognised that over two years ago but they did nothing about it.
    Mr. Pavitt: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that over the same period of time the number of days lost through illness rose from 280 million to 312 million— that for every one day's strike, 30 days were lost through illness? Would he not apply the same energy to industrial health as he seems to be applying to industrial relations?
    Mr. Carr: That, too, is an important question in terms of industrial effect and we must do all that we can to improve

    797
    the situation. In terms of industrial effect the loss through illness and voluntary absenteeism is not comparable with the loss through strikes because whereas places can be kept going when one or two people are away, they cannot keep going when the whole place is shut down.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: To what extent does my right hon. Friend think that the alarming increase in disputes is attributable to the steep increase in the taxpayers' subsidy of strikes through the supplementary benefit system? Is he aware that if there is any truth in this morning's reports that the Government may be thinking of continuing this curious practice, this might be unlikely to reduce the continuous proliferation of strikes?
    Mr. Carr: Any question of legislation in the social security sphere must be for my right hon. Friend to deal with. Evidence on this subject is not so easy to come by. The cause for the increase in strikes is difficult to analyse, but we are in no doubt that one of the reasons is that they have been a side effect of a statutory incomes policy, one which we forecast many years ago.
    Mr. Harold Walker: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that we should get a more balanced picture if we looked at the statistics over a period? Is he aware that if we look at the period from 1964 until May, 1970, and compare it with the preceding comparable period from 1959 to 1964, no matter whether we calculate it in terms of number of days lost, number of workers involved or the number of strikes, the figures almost exactly match?
    Mr. Carr: As the Donovan Report pointed out, in June 1968, the serious and urgent problem was the number of strikes and their increase in all industries other than coalmining.
    Mr. J. H.Osbornasked the Secretary of State for Employment what were the number of days lost from stoppages due to strikes in 1970; how this figure compares with those for the previous five years; and what percentage of both were due to unofficial strikes.
    Mr. Bryan: As the answer consists of a table of figures I will, with permission circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Osborn: Is it not a fact that the vast increase in the number of strikes, as given in the previous Answer, causes disruption in other industries? What evidence has my hon. Friend that the increasing number of strikes is the cause of rising unemployment?
    Mr. Bryan: I do not think that I have any evidence on paper to prove that point. I can but reiterate what has been said previously, that undoubtedly the number of strikes causes great disruption. By any standards, whether by days lost or by number of strikes, the situation is getting progressively worse. The table which will be published as an answer to the Question shows that in 1965 the total number of days lost was just less than three million, while last year it was over ten million. The escalation has been very rapid.
    Mr. Orme: Does the hon. Gentleman agree with Donovan that while the majority of strikes investigated by Donovan were unofficial, they lasted only two or three days, while official disputes were three or four times longer? Will not the Government's legislation bring about the development of official disputes which may last for weeks and months, as happens in America and which will damage the British economy more than anything that has happend before?
    Mr. Bryan: We certainly and sincerely do not believe that that forecast will prove to be correct. It is worth underlining once again that all these unofficial strikes, short or long, are, relatively speaking, more disruptive than official strikes.
    Following is the information:

    STOPPAGES OF WORK DUE TO INDUSTRIAL DISPUTES, UNITED KINGDOM

    Working days lost in all stoppages in progress in year (000's)

    Total(1)

    As a result of stoppages Known to have been official†(2)

    Column (2) as Percentage Column(1)

    1970*

    …

    10,970

    2,734

    24·9

    1969

    …

    6,846

    1,613

    23·6

    1968

    …

    4,690

    2,199

    46·1

    1967

    …

    2,787

    394

    14·1

    1966

    …

    2,398

    1,171

    48·8

    1965

    …

    2,925

    607

    20·8

    * Provisional.

    † Separate estimates are available only for stoppages known to have been official.

    Drug Taking (Young People)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Employment what instructions he has given to industrial training authorities under his control to alert themselves for evidence of drug taking among 15-to 18-year-olds.
    Mr. Bryan: None, Sir.
    It is advisable to await the outcome of the Misuse of Drugs Bill and to see what schemes of information collecting and monitoring may be introduced.
    Mr. Dalyell: Leaving the punitive measures out of this, does the Departmental philosophy accept in the matter of care and help with drugs that those at work are at a disadvantage compared with those at school?
    Mr. Bryan: The campaign against drug taking must be directed from the Home Office. If, as a result of the Misuse of Drugs Bill, my Department is required to co-operate we shall gladly do so. Frankly, I do not see that we shall be able to help to a tremendous extent in the way suggested by the hon. Gentleman.

    Average Weekly Wage
    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the Secretary of State for Employment what was the average weekly wage at 1st January; how this figure is broken down expressed as earnings for male worker and female worker, respectively; and how the wages index has changed, compared to that of the retail prices index over the last five years.
    Mr. Bryan: Figures of average weekly earnings are not available for 1st January but are available for October of each year.
    At October, 1970, the provisional figures of average weekly earnings of full-time manual workers were £28 Os. 11d. for men aged 21 years and over, and £13 19s. 10d. for women aged 18 years and over. Between October, 1965 and October, 1970, average earnings of all workers covered by the regular inquiry rose by 45·9 per cent. and the general index of retail prices by 26·4 per cent.
    Mr. Osborn: While thanking my hon. Friend for that detailed Answer, may I
    800
    ask him whether it is not a fact that wages and salaries account for a figure of £29,000 million out of a national income of £35,000 million? Is this not evidence that one man's pay rise today is another man's price rise and that if the nation is to level out incomes then there is no alternative to higher wage and salary earners accepting a reduction for the benefit of the lower wage and salary earners?
    Mr. Bryan: My hon. Friend would be surprised if I could absolutely confirm the figures he gave at the beginning of his supplementary question. Although it is never argued that prices rise in absolute direct relation to wages, undoubtedly the excessive wage claims that we have had are a major cause of the excessive price rises.
    Mr. Grimond: Is the Minister aware that there are women in the Shetlands who last year were earning only £10 to £13 a week? While it may be impossible to have the type of detailed prices and incomes policy which we have attempted from time to time, does not he agree that we must have an incomes policy which ensures justice, otherwise those at the top of the scale and those who are highly organised get enormous increases and those at the bottom of the scale are left behind altogether?
    Mr. Bryan: The whole accent of the Government's policy has been in favour of the lower-paid worker. At the same time, when this country had a statutory wages policy the lower-paid worker suffered and gained no advantage from it.
    Mr. Wilkinson: Is my hon. Friend aware that male industrial earnings in the West Riding of Yorkshire are about 25 per cent. lower than the average, and that unemployment in that region is rising faster than anywhere else in the country? Will he do his best to bring the new science-based industries to this region, which are so crucially needed for diversification and high earnings?
    Mr. Bryan: The West Riding of Yorkshire is an area which I know very well, for I have lived and worked there, and I realise the needs which my hon. Friend describes. However, regional policy, with which the Government are extremely exercised, comes under my right hon.

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    Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry.
    Mrs. Castle: If the Government's policy is designed to help the low-paid worker against the higher-paid worker, why have the Government done their best to prevent postmen getting more than an 8 per cent. increase, whereas, when the Secretary of State was informed last December by Chrysler directors that they intended to give an 18 per cent. increase to their workers at Lynwood, he raised no objection?
    Mr. Bryan: Neither of these statements is true.

    Glenrothes
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will initiate an urgent inquiry into the decline in employment in Glenrothes, Fife.
    Mr. Dudley Smith: No, Sir.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does the Under-Secretary of State recognise that there is a good deal of disquiet among trade unions about the way in which things are developing in Glenrothes? Will he undertake to inquire of firms, particularly big firms, in Glenrothes the trend over the last six or 12 months as there seems to be justification for measures to be taken by the Government, not only in Glenrothes but in Scotland as a whole?
    Mr. Dudley Smith: Part of our policy is to maintain contact with the employers in areas of difficulty. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern about the electronic industry in that part of the world, but I am pleased that most of the redundant workers have been re-placed. We are not complacent about this and will certainly look at it further.

    Retail Food Price Index
    Mr. Strangasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will introduce a new retail food prices index, the weights of which relate to food consumption patterns in households which have a total income of less than £20 a week.
    Mr. David Howell: Households with weekly incomes of less than £20 vary to
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    such an extent in size and pattern of food consumption that no reliable index could be established.
    Mr. Strang: Is the Minister aware that that is a most unsatisfactory reply? Is he further aware that the Government are not only deliberately forcing up food prices but are also trying to hold down the wages of lower-paid workers? It is not true, as his right hon. Friend implied, that the Government are offering the workers a choice between more wages and a higher level of unemployment. The Government are forcing them to accept both.
    Mr. Howell: I do not accept that string of assertions. The Cost of Living Advisory Committee looked into this in 1968 and found that it simply did not make sense, because of the great variety in the patterns of households, except in the case of the one-person or two-person households.
    Mr. Peter Mills: Does not my hon. Friend agree that one reason for the slight rise in food prices is the tremendous increase in the sale of "convenient" foods? If people want "convenient" foods they will have to pay the correct price for them.
    Mr. Howell: This is a question about food price indices rather than about food prices. Nevertheless, I agree that my hon. Friend has talked a lot of sense.
    Mr. Rose: Does not the fact that the rise in the price of food has been faster since 18th June than it was before, and that food prices are expected to go up 10 per cent. in the next year, reinforce the argument against the Government's selective incomes policy which is being forced upon the public sector, which is already behind the private sector and it is therefore not surprising that we now have the highest level of strikes since 1957, when a Tory Government were last in power?
    Mr. Howell: As I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's premise, I do not accept the arguments which follow from it. As I say, this question is about indices and not about food prices.

  INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND
  Ql. Dr. Gilbertasked the Prime Minister whether he had any official meetings with officers of the International Monetary Fund during his recent visit to Washington.
  Mr. Sheldonasked the Prime Minister when he will seek to pay a visit to the headquarters of the International Monetary Fund.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): I did not meet officers of the International Monetary Fund when I was in Washington, nor do I plan to visit their headquarters.
  Dr. Gilbert: That is a pity, because no doubt the Prime Minister would have relished being able to tell the officials of the Fund that in 1970 we had a record balance of payments surplus compared with the last time when he was in a position to address them officially.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Will the hon. Member now put a question?
  Dr. Gilbert: In the light of our balance of payments surplus and the present reliance on monetary policy, will the Prime Minister consider approaching the officials of the Fund for permission for a temporary flow of sterling to relieve the dilemmas of his present reliance on monetary policy?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. These matters are handled by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Mr. Sheldon: When the Prime Minister next visits the International Monetary Fund will he explain why, in his speech of 16th June last year, he said that the balance of payments was heading downhill and that the surplus would melt away in a matter of months—or were those words for domestic consumption only?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir, because those words were correct. The figures showed it, and they could not be challenged at the time. The trend of those months was a running-down. I am glad now to welcome the fact that the balance of payments on current account last year was strong. I welcome it particularly,
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  as I know does the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, because it enables us to make progress in paying off the enormous debts left to us by the Labour Administration.
  Mr. Marten: Will the Prime Minister confirm that at the moment there is no conflict between the authorities of the I.M.F. and Her Majesty's Government on economic policies?
  The Prime Minister: That is correct. I know of no conflict between the I.M.F. and Her Majesty's Government.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: As it is clear from the figures already published that the balance of payments for the second half of 1970 will be even better than for the first half, and that the right hon. Gentleman was therefore clearly wrong in June, does he not now have the self-confidence to admit, without blustering, that he was mistaken on one point at least?
  The Prime Minister: If I had been mistaken in what I said at the time I would tell the right hon. Gentleman so, but he knows perfectly well that he could not prove that it was a mistake.
  Mr. Jenkins: Really!
  The Prime Minister: There is no point in the right hon. Gentleman slumping in his seat and saying, "Really". If he could have proved it at the time he would have done so. If not, he was failing in his duty both to his party and to the electorate.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: We have now heard the right hon. Gentleman's idea of his duty to his party and the electorate, namely, to say things that are not true and to hope that they will not be denied. He has now twice said that when he told us what was false about the balance of payments, he was able to do it only because we did not have the figures for the second quarter to prove him wrong. Is he now saying that we did not have the figures then available and he relied on that to prove the deception?
  The Prime Minister: Not in the least. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to be referring to the current account and not to the balance of payments, because he knows perfectly well that the complete balance of payments cannot yet be available.

  PARLIAMENTARY QUESTIONS (TRANSFER)
  Mr. Ashtonasked the Prime Minister whether he will instruct his Ministers to give reasons to hon. Members when they decide to transfer Questions.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir, because the reason for transferring Questions is that they have been addressed to the wrong Minister.
  Mr. Ashton: Is the Prime Minister aware that he is the worst offender? On his performance this afternoon he is not only transferring Questions but beginning to transfer supplementary answers as well? Does he not think that we should be able to ask Questions without their being transferred? Will he come clean with the House, and get to grips with the realities of the country's problems?
  The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends ask such inadequate supplementaries they must expect to have Questions transferred. There has been a 57 per cent. increase in Questions to myself, and a 40 per cent. increase in the number of Questions answered, with no increase in my staff to deal with them. If there had been the same 40 per cent. increase in productivity throughout the nation, with the number of staff remaining unchanged, we should not have any problems.
  Mr. Molloy: Is the Prime Minister aware that he is on record as telling the House that certain Ministers are designated to answer certain Questions on prices? We can understand why the Prime Minister and the Government are touchy about prices, but does he not agree that it is going too far, almost to the edge of political cowardice, when the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food refuses point blank to carry out the Prime Minister's instruction to answer my Questions and those of other hon. Members on prices? Will he put a stop to it?
  The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friends have not refused to answer, as the hon. Gentleman knows.
  Mr. Maclennan: On a point of order. For the purpose of future statistics of Prime Ministerial Questions, may we have
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  your Ruling that Questions begged by the Prime Minister will not be listed as Questions answered by him?
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.

  UNITED STATES AND CANADA (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
  Mr. Barnettasked the Prime Minister what discussions he had in his recent talks with President Nixon about international monetary problems.
  The Prime Minister: The details of my talks with President Nixon are confidential.
  Mr. Barnett: Following the failure to cut Bank Rate today, are we to take it that the Prime Minister is unwilling to change his solutions to these problems so as to bring down the intolerable level of unemployment, and that, therefore, his priority for unemployment is different from that of the late Iain Macleod?
  The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the question of future Bank Rate is never discussed in the House.
  Mr. Cant: Whilst I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman's discussions with President Nixon must be confidential, did he tell President Nixon that his electoral expansionist policy was likely to increase the balance of payments deficit for the United States and put Europe once again in the dilemma of having to accept either dollars or gold? Despite his interest in apartheid and South Africa, will the right hon. Gentleman say that he will not support an increase in the price of gold and devaluation of the dollar?
  The Prime Minister: These are matters one does not discuss in the House of Commons. The hon. Gentleman knows full well that as I do not accept his premise, I did not tell President Nixon that.

  DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT (MINISTERS)
  Mr. Skinnerasked the Prime Minister if he will reduce the number of Ministers in the Department of Employment.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Skinner: Is the Prime Minister aware that all sections of British industry are suffering from the worst wholly-unemployed figures since the end of the Second World War and that a few more Tory Ministers added to the unemployed will not make any appreciable difference? Would he also accept that the pledge which he gave on 16th June, among the many other pledges, to cut unemployment at a stroke has now been added to the long list of broken promises?
  The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary told the House while I was in Singapore— and this has been emphasised by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer— that if a high rate of cost inflation continues, there is bound to be higher unemployment. It is the whole question of inflation that we are tackling at this moment. If the Leader of the Opposition likes to give his support in the country to stopping excessive inflationary wage claims, he and the hon. Gentleman might serve some more useful purpose.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: The right hon. Gentleman will not continue to get away with this kind of answer. As I understand it, he is now trying to say that the reason he has broken his pledge on unemployment, in common with all the other pledges, is inflation. Was not that pledge about unemployment, which was also covered by the phrase "at a stroke" since it was all the same sentence, made in the course of a long discourse on inflation, involving a promise to break into the price-wage inflation so that we could cut unemployment? Why has he flown in the face of those clear election pledges?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman knows that throughout the election I emphasised that the basic cause of inflation was the wage explosion which had been released by his right hon. Friend. It was the deliberate abandonment of the right hon. Gentleman's prices and incomes policy as well as his abandonment of the reform of industrial relations which led to that position.
  Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Since two of our Ministers can carry out the work of four Ministers in the Labour Government, does my right hon. Friend not agree that, once the Industrial Relations Bill is
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  through the House, we should not only be able to reduce the number of Ministers in the Department of Employment but also to get rid of the present inflation, reform the strike situation in industry and thus reduce employment?
  The Prime Minister: As the House knows, when I formed this Administration, I greatly reduced the number of Ministrys below that required by the present Leader of the Opposition in the former Administration. Of course, I shall keep the numbers under review in the same way as I shall keep under review the whole organisation and machinery of government.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: Was it part of the Prime Minister's anti-wage inflationary policy during the election to endorse the statement of his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that for the then Government not to pay 30 per cent. to the doctors was wholly unacceptable?
  The Prime Minister: I dealt with that matter fully and I always challenged the Leader of the Opposition, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer and the then Secretary of State for Social Services to say exactly what was the economic situation in which they were deciding the doctor's award. On that they would never come clean, but now we know what it was.

  DORSET (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
  Mr. Douglasasked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to Dorset in 1971.
  The Prime Minister: I have at present no plans to do so.
  Mr. Douglas: Is the Prime Minister aware of the famous conviction of industrial workers in the County of Dorset for joining a trade union in the first industrial revolution? Is he also aware of the inadequacies of the law in the first half of the nineteenth century to deal with the problems of trade union organisation? Will he not further concede the inadequacies of the present legislation that is going through the House to deal with the problems of the second industrial revolution and will he not withdraw that legislation?
  The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman undoubtedly knows, the Tolpuddle Martyrs were not convicted— [Interruption.] I can understand the hon. Gentleman's embarrassment, because he got the story wrong—under the Combination Acts against forming or joining a trade union. They were convicted under an Act of 1797 against administering an oath by an unlawful society. This was done under Lord Grey's Whig administration, for which I accept no responsibility whatever. They were then in 1836 returned to this country under Lord Melbourne's administration. What would astonish them if they were alive today would be to see the Labour Party and members of the trade unions actively opposing the reform of industrial relations.

THOMAS COOK AND SON
Mr. Tom Bradley (by Private Notice)asked the Secretary of State for the Environment in view of his statement that he intends to dispose of the publicly-owned company, Thos. Cook & Son Ltd., what consultations he has had with the Trade Unions concerned and if he will make a statement as to the procedure to be followed and the terms he will require to safeguard the interests of its employees.
The Minister for Transport Industries (Mr. John Peyton): I recognise how important this decision is from the point of view of the staff whose interests and welfare will be kept very much in mind both by the Government and the Transport Holding Company. I have already had a preliminary meeting with the General Secretary of the Transport Salaried Staffs' Association at which I assured him that, in the event of sale, the pension rights of the staff would be safeguarded. The unions will be fully consulted at all stages about the detailed arrangements which will now be worked out in conjunction with the Transport Holding Company.
Mr. Bradley: Since the right hon. Gentleman has recognised that this is a matter of considerable importance, may I ask why did he not come to the House yesterday to make a statement instead of sheltering behind a Written Answer?
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Is he aware that his decision is widely regarded as another act of political spite against the public sector? Is it his ultimate intention to leave the entire public transport complex with only its loss-making activities?
Will he accept a bid for Thomas Cook from another public undertaking such as British Rail or British European Airways? Is he aware that much of Thomas Cook's business is in foreign exchange transactions, and how does he propose to deal with that problem? Finally, is he aware that the staff of Thomas Cook enjoy rather better rates of pay and conditions of service than do staff in the private sector of travel agencies? Will he ensure that when the sale takes place the conditions of service and superannuation arrangements of the staff of Thomas Cook will be fully protected?
Mr. Peyton: I have already dealt with the last part of that question and the answer is "Yes". May I first deal with the point made by the hon. Gentleman about any discourtesy to the House? The answer was given yesterday to a Written Question. I had hoped that it would be to an Oral Question [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] But in fact it turned out to be the third Question asked by the hon. Member concerned and so the answer was allowed to go as a Written Answer. I must explain to the House that the Government were in some dilemma since they had to choose between answering the Question yesterday, or alternatively eating into the time allocated to the Industrial Relations Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Excuses."] Perhaps I might be allowed to observe that until this moment I had understood hon. Members opposite to be anxious to win some time for the Industrial Relations Bill. Certainly no discourtesy was intended to the House, and if there is any suggestion of that I unreservedly apologise.
In reply to the hon. Gentleman's point about a public corporation being free to make an offer for this concern, if it has the cash available to do so I imagine it will be free to make an offer, along with any other interested body.
In regard to the point made by the hon. Gentleman about spite against a nationalised concern and the very great venom with which, uncharacteristically, he asked that part of his question, I would

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only say that until now I had not regarded Thomas Cook and Son as being one of the commanding heights of the economy.
Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid: In disposing of this very important business, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it has developed very much less of its true potential because of the financing terms imposed upon it by the British Transport Holding Authority, and in particular in respect of the sale of travellers' cheques which in private hands would be a source of very large revenue, had Thomas Cook not been so disallowed?
Mr. Peyton: Yes, Sir. I am obliged to my hon. Friend and will certainly bear in mind what he has said. I have little doubt that under private management this concern should be able considerably to improve its earning record.
Mr. John Morris: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that he is compounding this scandalous decision by the sheer hypocrisy of the way in which yesterday he tried to shield behind a Written Answer—hypocrisy which is uncharacteristic of the right hon. Gentleman? In regard to whether this great undertaking can be acquired by another publicly-owned industry if such an industry wants to make a bid, does it not come before the right hon. Gentleman to approve as a piece of capital investment? Will he not refuse that in turn?
Mr. Peyton: I am interested to hear the right hon. Gentleman, who usually speaks with such moderation, straying into hyperbole which betrays the weakness of his case. I have absolutely nothing to add to the answer I gave to his hon. Friend just now, namely, that if a public corporation has the resources available to make a bid, I am sure it is free to do so.
Mr. Jopling: Could it be made clear to any purchaser of Thomas Cook that it should not expect to have the monopoly of travel facilities within the Palace of Westminster? Will he give an undertaking that in future this franchise will be put out to tender to the whole travel business?
Mr. Peyton: That is a very important matter which I have no doubt will receive——
Mr. Rose: Why not sell off the Chamber?
Mr. Peyton: It depends on the contents.
As I was saying in reply to my hon. Friend, the question of the franchise of serving this House will no doubt receive the energetic consideration of the Services Committee.
Mr. Paget: Since the right hon. Gentleman does not regard Thomas Cook as a commanding height of the economy, may we take it that he regards it as a nice morsel of loot?
Mr. Peyton: My answer to that is quite clear—no. Whoever acquires Thomas Cook will have to pay a very steep price.
Mr. Blaker: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his decision will be widely welcomed? Is it not clear to anybody who takes the trouble to look at the balance sheets of Thomas Cook that the return on assets employed is very poor and is falling? Is it not therefore very much in the interests of the taxpayer that it should be sold at a fair price and the proceeds used in a more useful manner?
Mr. Peyton: I entirely endorse everything that my hon. Friend has said.
Mr. Harold Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has always been held in such respect in this House for his polished performances that we are disappointed that he should try to emulate his Leader in the level of his remarks?
Is the right hon. Gentleman trying to tell the House that he does not know that if one hon. Member has three Questions on the Order Paper the third is not reached? Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the abundant precedent for asking leave to answer an Oral Question and even, appropriately, a Written Question?
Will the right hon. Gentleman now answer another question put by my hon. Friend in his opening supplementary—namely, whether another public company can bid for Thomas Cook? The right hon. Gentleman said "If they have the cash". Will he therefore allow any other publicly-owned organisation to borrow in the City, exactly as the private buyer will be able to do, to buy the assets of Thomas Cook?

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Finally, will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking —
[Interruption.]—that Thomas Cook, which is widely respected and is responsible for the safety of so many hon. Members flying abroad, and their welfare—[Interruption.]—yes,
literally—will not be sold to one of the crook organisations in the tourist travel industry which are not too squeamish about the safety of their customers——
Hon. Members: Names?
Sir G. Nabarro: On a point of order. I distinctly heard the Leader of the Opposition refer to "crook organisations". As all travel agencies are properly conducted— [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."]—in accordance with legal and statutory requirements, may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to rule now that the term "crook organisations", directed against people outside this House, is an unparliamentary expression unworthy of the right hon. Gentleman which ought, in common decency, to be unreservedly withdrawn?
Mr. Fernyhough: Further to that point of order. Is it not true, Mr. Speaker— [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]—I shall wait; do not worry. Is it not true that Sir Thomas Cook—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sir Thomas!"]—and Son has in no way contributed to the many thousands of holidaymakers who have been filched by the crooks to whom my right hon. Friend referred?
Mr. English: Further to that point of order raised by the hon. Member for Worcester——
Sir G. Nabarro: Not Worcester. Worcestershire, South.
Mr. English: —would it not be quite simple, as a matter of public record, to list those companies against which actions have been successfully brought?
Mr. Ashton: Further to that point of order. Are you aware, Mr. Speaker, that the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry has, within the last month, agreed to take action against a travel agency about 50 yards from this House—the Westminster Touring Association—and that the remarks of my right hon. Friend are fully justified?
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am grateful for all this assistance, but I was prepared to rule straight away. I think that there is a convention in this House that remarks made in the general are permissible.
Mr. Harold Wilson: I also thank hon. Members for their help. Perhaps I might finish the sentence. I referred to crook organisations, of which I have, through members of my family, personal knowledge, and the fleecing of a lot of—[Interruption.] If hon. Gentlemen want to justify an organisation, not a hundred yards from where I am speaking, which fleeced vicar after vicar and parishioners throughout the country going to Oberammergau this year and demanded more money on the eve of going—this includes my sister, who was fleeced, too, if hon. Gentlemen are interested—will they get up and justify it? I am asking whether the right hon. Gentleman, whose standards I know to be higher than those who have just interrupted, will give an assurance not to sell Thomas Cook to firms of that kind?
Mr. Peyton: Yes, Sir. Of course, I give that assurance. I am surprised that it should even be necessary to ask for it.
Perhaps I might comment on the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough)——
Mr. Kaufman Mr. Kaufman rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. I really do not think that it is for the right hon. Gentleman to answer a point of order.
Mr. Peyton: It was never my intention to do so, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Gentleman got his knighthoods a bit mixed. He was talking about Sir Thomas Cook rather than Sir Henry Lunn. I do not think that Mr. Thomas Cook was ever knighted.
The right hon. Gentleman returned to the point on why I had not made a statement yesterday. Let me say—and I have the permission of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to say this—that I expressed to my right hon. Friend yesterday my very great disappointment at not being able to make this statement, because I anticipated, with some pleasure, exactly the reaction which we have now experienced.
The right hon. Gentleman has again——
Mr. Latham: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I seek your guidance, in view of what has been said, and ask whether it would be in order and possible to reverse the process of transferring Questions and get an answer to what has been asked from the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, who his right hon. Friend has said is responsible for his not making a statement yesterday?
Mr. Speaker: That is ingenious, but not a point of order.
Mr. Peyton: The hon. Gentleman misunderstood, or misheard, or both, what I said. I referred to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. I have no doubt that if the hon. Gentleman seizes the opportunity later my right hon. Friend will enjoy answering him just as much as I am enjoying myself now—[Interruption.]— My own recollection of the way to get an answer from the right hon. Gentleman was to ask a very short question, and even then one was not always successful. The right hon. Gentleman has asked me a long question, and I am endeavouring to answer it.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to Thomas Cook's responsibility for the safety of right hon. and hon. Members. I have no doubt that whoever has the task in future of looking after right hon. and hon. Members will be just as careful for their safety as have Cook's in the past.
I have already told the right hon. Gentleman that it was quite unnecessary for him to drag out of the gutter some dubious organisation and suggest that there was any possibility of the sale of this well-known and well-established firm to such an organisation as that.
The right hon. Gentleman suggested that I was in some way emulating, or seeking to emulate, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. My only comment on that is that I should be much more anxious to do that than some of the right hon. Gentleman's right hon. and hon. Friends would be to emulate him.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Harold Wilson: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 1ST FEBRUARY and TUESDAY, 2ND FEBRUARY. Industrial Relations Bill: Committee stage (3rd and 4th allotted days).
WEDNESDAY, 3RD FEBRUARY. Debate on a Motion to take note of the Report from the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, 1969–70, relating to economic planning in Scotland.
Second Reading of the Vehicles (Excise) Bill [Lords] and of the Hydrocarbon Oil (Customs and Excise) Bill [Lords], which are consolidation Measures.
Motion on the Functions of Traffic Wardens (Scotland) Order.
THURSDAY, 4TH FEBRUARY. Supply (10th allotted day): There will be a debate on an Opposition Motion relating to pensions.
Remaining stages of the Vehicles (Excise) Bill [Lords] and of the Hydrocarbon Oil (Customs and Excise) Bill [Lords].
Motion on the Anti-Dumping Duty (No. 5) Order.
Motion to implement the recommendations of the Select Committee on Standing Orders (Revision).
FRIDAY, 5TH FEBRUARY. Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY, 8TH FEBRUARY. Until Seven o'clock, consideration of Private Members' Motions. Afterwards, Second Reading of the Rating Bill.
Mr. Harold Wilson: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Government expect to publish the White Paper on arms for South Africa? Is he aware that when it is published we shall expect him to provide Government time at the earliest opportunity for a debate on this important issue?
Second, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that although we accept the contrite reply of the Minister for Transport Industries about making an important satement in a Written Answer, there is a feeling, probably on both sides of the

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House, that this is not the proper way to make such announcements? For example, last week an important decision, from a constituency point of view, about pubs in Carlisle and the Border country and elsewhere was given in a Written Answer, instead of being done decently and straightforwardly across the Floor of the House. Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that he will do his best to look into this question?
I do not want to press him more on it this afternoon, but will he provide time for a debate on the Carlisle situation, ahead of the necessary legislation? I ask that because I do not think that this was a very big election issue for right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and I am sure that hon. Gentlemen on the back benches opposite would like to get out of the allegation that they are selling off State assets for their friends, and that they did not come here just for the beer.
Mr. Whitelaw: On the first point, I understand that the White Paper will be published next week—I hope early next week. I think that it would be right for the House to study the terms of the White Paper before deciding about a debate, but I note what the right hon. Gentleman has said.
On the point about announcing decisions in statements at the end of Question Time, I should like to say at once that I take absolutely full responsibility —[Interruption.]—if the hon. Gentleman does not want me to take responsibility, he does not have to. I am trying to be fair to my right hon. Friend, which I think is honest and is due to him and to the House. As it was I who prevented my right hon. Friend from making a statement yesterday, I think that I am right to stand up before the House and explain myself, and that is what I am doing.
I should like to explain exactly what I mean, and what my purpose is when I make a decision about statements. I am in the hands of the House, and if the House wants things done differently, so be it. When I see that a statement has to be made, a decision has to be taken whether it would be right to take up the time of the House for that statement, and thereby cut down the time available for the rest of the business of the House. That decision has to be made about every
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statement, and all Leaders of the House from time immemorial have had to take such a decision.
I take the view that if a decision is soon to be followed by legislation, when there will be time during the consideration of the legislation to discuss the matter fully in the House, it is probably right not to have a statement. If I am wrong, I am prepared to consider what should be done in future, but it is a practice which has been followed by my predecessors. I hope hon. Members will realise that if the present practice is changed it will cut into the time available for other business.
The Carlisle State Management Scheme will shortly be the subject of legislation, and I think that there will be plenty of time to debate it within the legislation.
Mr. Eadie: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your guidance, and I am sorry that I have to raise this point of order, but the fact that I am raising it will, I think, illustrate the point that I shall try to make in seeking your guidance.
On your election as Speaker you said that you would preserve the rights of back benchers in this illustrious House of Commons. I am about to go to the Committee considering the Coal Industry Bill——
Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Eadie: —and I want to put a question to the Leader of the House because my rights as a back bencher are to some extent being frustrated by the way in which the Government are running the business of the House.
The Committee stage of the Industrial Relations Bill is being taken on the Floor of the House this afternoon. As a former trade unionist, and now as a miners' Member of Parliament with an active interest in the Bill, I have a duty to represent my constituents who have expressed some strong views about this matter, but because of the way in which the business of the House has been organised I must attend the Committee upstairs on the Coal Industry Bill, which meets not only in the morning, but in the afternoon, and thus I am prevented from taking part in debates in the House. I would seek your guidance, because I

819
must leave the House shortly to join the Standing Committee on the Coal Industry Bill. Therefore, I rely on the promise which you gave to preserve the rights of back benchers when participating in the business of the House.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member began by saying that, by seeking my guidance, he would make a point. He has made the point, but it is not one for the Chair. It is one for those who control the business of the House, which the Chair does not do. The Chair tries to preserve certain rules of order, but the contents of the business is not a matter for the Chair. However, I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman has made his point.
Mrs. Knight: Will my right hon. Friend note that, by 3.15 today, we had only reached Question No. 17 on the Order Paper, and bear in mind the possibility either of having a system whereby Members who hand in Questions at the Table Office have those Questions marked with the time at which they are handed in, and the Question would then appear on the Order Paper in direct relevance to the time that it was handed in, instead of at a printer's whim, or of having an hour for Questions from 2.30, or of bearing in mind the evidence given on this point to the Select Committee on Procedure?
Mr. Whitelaw Mr. Whitelaw rose——
Mr. Eadie: On a point of order. You gave a Ruling, Mr. Speaker, which hon. Members accept and which I certainly accept, but after you had given that Ruling, it was a great discourtesy to the House that the Leader of the House should remain seated and not try to help the House in the difficulties which it is in because of his ineptitude.
Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order. It may be that the hon. Gentleman would have got an answer from the Leader of the House if he had put his question to him and not to me.
Mr. Whitelaw: In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Mrs. Knight), I will look into the point which she has made.
In answer to the point of the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie), which he raised fairly in a point of order
820
with you, Mr. Speaker, I understood that it was not correct for me to reply to a point of order addressed to you. However, as he wishes an answer from me, I am only too pleased to give it. That is, I appreciate the difficulty in which he has been placed. I am afraid that this is nothing new. It has happened with all Governments over a long period. I shall do my best to ensure that it happens as little as possible.
Mr. Member: Will the right hon. Gentleman give time as early as possible next week for a full debate on the recently publicised disturbing increase in the number of wage earners in full-time work earning less than the supplementary benefit poverty level? I am sure that he will appreciate that this is a matter of the greatest public importance and one which is urgent, because the Government's present economic policy of de-escalating what they choose to regard as inflationary wage claims is concentrated exclusively on the public sector, when, as is well known——
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must not develop the kind of points which he would make if time were found for a debate.
Mr. Whitelaw: I note what the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) says. Of course, he raises subjects of considerable importance. There are a number of opportunities when these can be raised in the House. I could not give special time for a debate on them, however, in the near future.
Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Arising out of the very important point about Question Time raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Mrs. Knight), will my right hon. Friend give some thought to having a debate as soon as possible on the recommendation of the Select Committee on Procedure dealing with Question Time, in the last Session?
Mr. Whitelaw: As I have promised the House before, I hope shortly to put a proposal before the House arising from that Select Committee's Report and to ask the House to come to its own conclusions on it, as I believe that this is essentially a House of Commons matter.
Mr. Loughlin: May we revert for a moment to the question of Thomas Cook

821
and the disposal of other national assets? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of allowing a debate on the issue of the disposal of national assets, which appears to be the policy of the Government, particularly in view of its impact upon the integrity of hon. Members, because very often those assets will be disposed of to persons with whom Ministers of the Crown have had personal and business relations? This House has been, over the centuries, renowned for its incorruptibility——
Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman has asked his question.
Mr. Loughlin: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Leader of the House whether, in the interests of the House alone, he will give us time to have a debate on this issue?
Mr. Whitelaw: I know that the hon. Gentleman is certainly not intending in any way to cast any doubts on the integrity of myself or any of my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Government. At the same time, I could not undertake for a specific debate on this subject. There are ample opportunities for it if any proposals such as that affecting Thomas Cook are made. if there comes a chance for a debate later on, of course—but I cannot promise one in the near future.
Dame Irene Ward: Has my right hon. Friend seen the Motions in my name proposing a new policy to help the North-East?
[That, in the opinion of this House, in view of the close analysis of the economic and industrial needs of the North-East, which appeared in recent copies of The Times, it would be in the interest of the future of the North-East if a high-ranking industrialist with outstanding qualifications was appointed to examine the economic implications of the assessment in The Times, and make recommendations to the Government to meet the problems which require immediate attention.]
[That this House is of opinion that the findings of a high-ranking industrialist on the economic requirements of the North-East,should be presented to the Prime Minister, who would arrange for consideration and immediate action by each
822
appropriate Secretary of State; and is further of the opinion that the recent welcome offer of the Secretary of State for the Environment to speak in Cabinet for the North-East would ensure support for soundly based financial action for the economic and social needs of the area, coupled with the finance to implement plans necessary for the proper development of the Region.]
[That, in the opinion of this House, the recommendations of a high-ranking industrialist would be of greater value to the North-East Region than a Minister, and would command support from the business community as well as from trades unions and the public, and, further, that recommendations are necessary for the proper planning of roads, and the future of shipbuilding, having regard to the increase in steel prices, training of skilled men, the advisability or not of the phasing out of the regional employment premium, the changeover from industrial development grants to allowances, the case for the removal of selective employment tax and social development in excess of announced programmes, etc., etc.]
If he cannot arrange for a debate next week, would he speak in our favour in the Cabinet when the matter comes to be discussed?
Mr. Whitelaw: I note the very important Motions put down by my hon Friend, and the Government's policies and plans for the North-East are being carefully considered. As for what I do or do not do in the Cabinet, it would not be proper for me to say.
Mr. C. Pannell: Will the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the unhappy business this week, re-examine the proposal of the Select Committee on Procedure a few years ago that we should abolish the Parliamentary Session as it is now known, with a view to carrying over contentious legislation into the next Session, rather than inflicting a guillotine in the thoroughly unmerited way which has upset hon. Members in all parts of the House this week?
Mr. Whitelaw: I note what the right hon. Gentleman says, and I will certainly consider that Report, of course without

823
any commitment. Perhaps my only comment—I do not wish to rake over the past particularly—is this: I was glad that I was able to respond to the Opposition over the time for the Report stage on the Industrial Relations Bill. It is perhaps interesting to note that now, on that Bill, the new time for Report and Third Reading is, I think, the longest time for any Report and Third Reading of any Bill for which I have been able to find precedent in the history of Parliament. There may be one longer—I am looking into it —but it is certainly the longest that can be found for a very long time.
Mr. Burden: My right hon. Friend will recall a Motion on the Order Paper recently about a request for a debate on the Littlewood Report.
[That this House draws the attention of the Secretary of State for the Home Department to the fact that the Littlewood Committee Report, Experiments on Living Animals, Command Paper No. 2641, which was published in April, 1965 has not yet been discussed by This House; and, in view of the public concern at the increasing number of animals subjected to vivisection, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to afford time for an early debate.]
He said that he would look into it. In view of the growing concern about vivisection, will he now say whether there is any opportunity or possibility of a debate in the reasonably near future?
Mr. Whitelaw: I know the importance of the subject which my hon. Friend raises and I also appreciate his close personal interest in the matter, but I am afraid that I cannot offer Government time in the near future. Of course, this is eminently a subject for a Private Member's Motion. or it can be raised in other ways. If I could find Government time, I should be very pleased to do so, but I cannot see an opportunity in the near future.
Mr. Arthur Davidson: In view of the interesting speech which the right hon. Gentleman himself made last week about the Press and the Official Secrets Acts, would he not perhaps think that it is timely, in view of the state of the Press at the moment, that we should have a debate both on the Official Secrets Acts and on the state of the Press as early as possible?
Mr. Whitelaw: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's calling attention to a speech which I made; very few people notice anything I do. But I could not find time in the near future for such a debate. That has made my position clear. I naturally appreciate the importance of the subject which he has raised. Equally, I understand that it is to some extent, in one aspect, sub judice in a case at the moment. Nevertheless, the importance of it in future I fully recognise.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: May I draw my right hon. Friend's attention to Motion No. 53 calling for an independent inquiry into the working of the Abortion Act, which has been signed by myself and 260 Members from both sides of the House?
[That this House calls upon the Secretary of State for Social Services to set up immediately an independent inquiry into the working of the Abortion Act which has been in operation for over two years and which has caused widespread public concern and considers that any such inquiry should assess the effects of the Act on the health of the nation a, well as on its legal, social and moral life and should recommend any changes in the law which are in the public interest.]
Could he see whether we can have a debate on this Motion, which has been on the Order Paper for six months, or will he at least draw it to the attention of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services?
Mr. Whitelaw: I certainly undertake to draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services to the Motion, but I am afraid that I am unable to find time for it to be debated in the near future.
Mr. Latham: Despite his difficulties, when does the right hon. Gentleman expect to find time to debate an important House of Commons matter; namely, the Report of the Committee of Privileges concerning the imprisonment of hon. Members?
When he eventually finds time for such a debate, will he draw the necessary Motion sufficiently wide, first to cover the matters raised at the time and the matters with which the Committee did not deal; secondly, to cover the imprisonment of

825
an hon. Member of this House at the present time, both in regard to the nature of the offence and the sentence; and, thirdly, the point raised in a recent Adjournment debate by the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), in which he indicated that he had been refused access to his constituency by the British Army?
As the second and third points are not only important but continuing, and are not matters relating to the past, may I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to accept that the House should discuss these issues at the earliest opportunity?
Mr. Whitelaw: I recognise the importance of the matter and of the Report of the Select Committee of Privileges which, as the hon. Gentleman knows, was about the general principle and not about any particular case. While recognising the importance of the subject, I am unable to find Government time for it to be debated next week.
Mr. Cordle: In view of the serious financial problems which some of our national and provincial orchestras are facing, coupled with the impending policy of museum charges, may I ask my right hon. Friend to find time for the House to debate the arts and amenities?
Mr. Whitelaw: I note the importance of the subject and I am sure that there will be opportunities for it to be debated. However, I cannot offer Government time in the near future.
Mr. Lawson: Why has there been a delay in setting up the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs? Will it be set up next week?
Mr. Whitelaw: I cannot promise exactly when it will be set up. I have responded to the first of the hon. Gentleman's requests by saying that there will be a debate on the last Report. That will happen, as I promised it would. I said that such a debate would take place early in the year. I cannot give any further information on the matter today.
Mr. Moate: Is my right hon. Friend aware of several Motions which have been tabled on the subject of the siting of the third London airport? Now that the Roskill Commission's Report has been published in full, may I ask my
826
right hon. Friend when we will debate this vital and crucial subject? When such a debate is arranged, will he make the maximum amount of time available in view of the immense importance which many hon. Members attach to this issue and in view of the large number of hon. Members who will wish to speak?
Mr. Whitelaw: My hon. Friend will appreciate that I have already undertaken that Government time will be provided for a debate on the question of the siting of the third London airport before any decision is reached by the Government.
Mr. J. T. Price: In view of the declared policy of Her Majesty's Government to sell off to speculators the profitable portions of the national assets in the nationalised industries and the bonanza that is likely to be created by that process, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman for an assurance that if and when the Government decide to dispose of the Crown jewels, we will be more suitably informed and given better notice?
Mr. Whitelaw: I do not in the least accept the hon. Gentleman's premise as to what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government; and therefore what he said following that does not arise.
Mr. Harold Wilson: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to be rather more specific about his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) on the question of Thomas Cook? I did not understand whether or not the Leader of the House was giving an undertaking not to take any action in this case by selling all the assets, or by inviting tenders for their sale, until the House had had a chance to debate the matter. Does he appreciate that this is, in a sense, different from the Carlisle case because he can at least claim that legislation is coming?
Next, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that we have a clear Government statement—and, if necessary, a debate; let us have the statement first—about the Government's attitude to apartheid in sport? Has his attention been drawn to the Motion No. 245 standing in the names of many hon. Members on this subject? Is he aware that this matter is causing great concern in the House and the country in that the point was not answered

827
in the House when it came up the other day? On that occasion it was totally ducked and no attempt was made to answer it—to the point where many hon. Members wondered whether there was something going on about which we should be told. Will he ensure that a clear statement is made next week by a responsible Government Minister? If the Minister responsible for sport cannot do it, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for somebody else to make the statement?
[That this House, noting the ambivalent statement of the Minister responsible for sport on Wednesday, 27th January at Question Time, concludes that the Government is considering a major change of policy, involving issues of apartheid, in order to enable British sports teams to take part in South African sports events at the expense of the British taxpayer; and deplores any such change of policy, which cannot be in the long-term interests of British sportsmen and of international sport.]
Mr. Whitelaw: The answer to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's question is that I understood his hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) to be raising a rather wider point, which was the whole question of assets in general and whether Ministers were involved. I did not understand him to be referring directly to Thomas Cook. I think it right for me to say at this stage that I will immediately investigate what the right hon. Gentleman has said and have discussions with my right hon. Friend who is concerned with this matter. I certainly note the important point which he made.
I come to the second part, about the need for a statement. I have seen the Motion about apartheid in sport. For my part, I had no knowledge of any change in the existing position on this subject. If there has been any change, then of course there will be a statement. However, I do not quite see the need for a statement if there has been absolutely no change in the present position, which I understand to be the case. Nevertheless, I will look into the matter and refer the question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.
Mr. Harold Wilson: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his last answer, which was more specific than the one that was given by his Ministerial colleague. If he is now saying what his colleague refused to say, and which caused the suspicions to which I referred—if he is saying that no taxpayers' money will be used for the purpose of sending British sportsmen and sportswomen abroad to take part in racially segregated sport—and if he, having gone into these matters, has satisfied himself that there has been no change in the position, then we are grateful to him and must invite him to take over his right hon. Friend's portfolio because we like straight answers.
Mr. Whitelaw: Perhaps I have let myself into a certain danger by the straightness of my answer. I will certainly look into the facts because the right hon. Gentleman has now specifically raised the question of grants. I think the right position for me to take is to look into the subject, and if there has been any change in the policy on the lines put forward by the right hon. Gentleman, then of course my right hon. Friend will make a statement. I will investigate the position, naturally without commitment at this stage.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: Will my right hon. Friend take an early opportunity next week to have what could be a dangerous inaccuracy put right? The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) has spoken of "loot" and it has been said in reply by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Transport Industries that extortionately high prices will be asked for Thomas Cook's assets. This, with other questions asked by the Leader of the Opposition and other hon. Gentlemen opposite on this subject, may have given the wrong impression of it being a bonanza.
If the return on capital is taken into account, none of the suggestions made by hon. Gentlemen opposite fit the facts. Will my right hon. Friend ensure the removal of this wrong impression so as not to allow it to interfere with the correct disposal of these assets, if their disposal fits in with Government policy?
Mr. Whitelaw: Perhaps I have already strayed far enough into matters of policy in answering questions today. I do not think I will be able to find time for a

829
specific debate on this issue next week. There will, no doubt, be opportunities for this matter to be raised; and, for my part, I think there is nothing in what is being done for one to draw some of the conclusions that have been stated in the House.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. The Chair is in some difficulty, as often happens at this time. I have already permitted business questions to continue for 25 minutes. I will allow them to continue for a further five minutes, though I ask hon. Members to be brief in putting their questions and to try to avoid asking questions which have already been asked.
Mr. Edward Lyons: Has the Leader of the House noticed Motion No. 246, which has been signed by over 130 hon. Members on both sides of the House, relating to the arrest of the Dean of Johannesburg?
[That this House deplores the arrest of a British subject—namely the Dean of Johannesburg—by the South African Government on what are apparently political charges; and urges Her Majesty's Government to press for his immediate release on his trial on a charge universally recognised as criminal.]
As the Dean was arrested under the Terrorism Act, which denies fundamental human rights, and charged under the Suppression of Communism Act, which for vagueness is equalled only by the criminal statutes in the Soviet Union, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to have a debate on this matter next week so that we may consider the Dean's present situation?
Mr. Whitelaw: I have certainly noted the very important Motion to which the hon. Gentleman refers and which has been signed by hon. Members in all parts of the House. Hon. Members will have noted from reports in the Press—and I understand this to be the case—that the Dean has now been released on bail. In these circumstances, I do not think it will be possible to have a debate next week, but I undertake to make sure that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is made well aware of the feelings of the House on this subject, and I know that he
830
will wish to keep the House fully informed about it.
Mr. Braine: Reverting to the question of the Roskill Commission's Report, may I ask my right hon. Friend to be a little more explicit? Is he aware that there is not only widespread interest in the subject in constitencies like mine but also deep anxiety? Will he undertake to look into the possibility of a debate taking place in the House, and not in another place—their Lordships do not represent anybody—in the early part of February?
Mr. Whitelaw: I cannot be more specific than I have been in the past on this subject. I appreciate the anxieties to which my hon. Friend very properly refers on behalf of his constituents and others. I understand that there will be a debate in another place. I cannot say exactly when the debate in this House will be, but I give an absolute undertaking that it will be before the Government reach any decision.
Mr. Ashley: In view of the disappointing reply to a recent Adjournment debate on the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, can we have an early debate on Early Day Motion No. 222, dealing with the subject?
[That this House call for the immediate implementation of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act and urges the Government to take vigorous action to ensure that every eligible person receives their entitlements under the Act.]
Mr. Whitelaw: I did not know that there was a disappointing reply. I am sure that it cannot really have been so. However, I note what the hon. Gentleman says. I shall see that the important question which he raises and in which he has so much interest is brought to the attention of my right hon. and hon. Friends concerned. I could not undertake to make time available for a debate in the near future.
Mr. Kilfedder: My right hon. Friend will be aware that the Second Reading of the Hare Coursing Bill was not reached last Friday. Will he now reconsider the possibility of providing time for this important and merciful Measure which has considerable support on both sides of the House and tremendous support in the country?
Mr. Whitelaw: I note what my hon. Friend says. It is fair to point out that there is considerable time in the House for private Members' legislation and for Government legislation. It has always been my belief that it was right to keep them separate and that, as far as possible, Private Members' Bills should be taken in the time allotted to private Members' legislation. I do not rule out the possibility, in exceptional circumstances, that some Private Member's Bill will be given time if it is widely wanted in the House. However, in principle it is right to leave private Members' legislation to private Members' time. That is a proposition to which I hope to adhere.
Mr. Urwin: Does the Leader of the House appreciate that there is considerable disappointment on this side of the House, and not a little surprise, that when his hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) referred to the three Early Day Motions in her name, she did not ask the right hon. Gentleman to provide time for a debate on them? In view of the continuing escalation in unemployment figures in the Northern Region and the deep disappointment in the region about the continuing absence of a coherent regional policy, will the right hon. Gentleman please ensure that time is given for an early debate on a matter which is of serious concern in the North?
Mr. Whitelaw: I appreciate the importance of the subject and the feelings in the area, because obviously I have considerable firsthand knowledge of them. I do not accept all the hon. Gentleman's premises, and I am afraid that I could not arrange for a debate in Government time. There are other opportunities, of course, for raising the subject.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order.

MINISTERIAL AND PRESS STATEMENTS
Mr. Arthur Lewis: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to raise with you a matter which I was hoping to put to the Leader of the House in a business question. However, I think that it is a point that you might consider, because
832
it concerns a vital matter affecting all Members of this House. I think that it is within your province to deal with the matter that I am about to raise, since the Leader of the House, while promising to deal with it and no doubt doing his best, has not dealt with it.
My point concerns the way in which Ministers and Ministerial Departments are taking away the rights of Members of this House. Almost every day one reads obviously inspired Press leaks about various proposals of the Government. Almost invariably, the leaks are on matters giving a build-up for the Government on what they consider to be good political subjects. I could quote dozens of instances. However, I will confine myself to today's examples.
In the Press today there are three statements. The first is to the effect that action will be taken to prevent strikers making claims for income tax rebate, which is their right. The second says that action will be taken to cut out welfare benefits to strikers. These are two popular subjects in the country at present. The third statement says that there will be a White Paper issued in the near future on cuts in Government expenditure. In the latter instance, there are even details about the sums involved—and the information in this case was given not to Britishers but to the American Chamber of Commerce.
What normally happens is that Questions on these subjects are put down to the Ministers concerned, they make statements, the time of the House is taken up, and many hon. Members are precluded from raising points and discussing issues which have already been given full publicity by the Departments of the Ministers concerned. That is fairly obvious, otherwise the Press could not get the information.
Today we have seen another example. It has resulted in a Private Notice Question which, as you have pointed out, has occupied 25 minutes of our time. Yet even before the prepared answer was given in this House, full details of the Government's proposals had appeared in the Press a week ago.
If I want to ask a Private Notice Question on a matter which requires immediate attention and which is not likely to be dealt with, I am refused an

833
answer, whereas Private Notice Questions are answered on matters about which the Government have already given statements to the Press. This happens every day of the week.
I suggest to the Leader of the House that he should see to it that Ministers and Ministerial Departments cease this practice and realise that statements should be given to this House first, as the right hon. Gentleman has promised, and that he should tell his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, if he has a statement to make about cuts in Government expenditure, he should come here to do it. Failing that, Mr. Speaker, I ask you to take action in order to protect the rights of hon. Members.
Mr. Bob Brown: Further to that point of order. The Minister of Agriculture recently made a statement about a change of policy. Prior to his statement in the House, there were Press leaks, and the right hon. Gentleman undertook to investigate whether they had come from anyone in his Department. In a Written Answer yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman said that he had undertaken the enquiry that he offered to make and that he was satisfied that no member of the staff of his Department was responsible for the leak and what had happened was that consultations had to take place with organisations outside the House during the weeks prior to his statement, over which he had no control.
I suggest that it is remarkable that no leak ever occurs in a single newspaper. It always appears in more than one of our national papers. When it happens, it is recognised by every hon. Member that it is a Departmentally-inspired leak.
It is not good enough for the Minister of Agriculture to lie back on his staff and say that he is satisfied that no member of his staff was responsible. If a member of his staff was responsible for leaking this information on the basis of an instruction from the right hon. Gentleman or one of his junior Ministers, the Minister himself must bear responsibility and act accordingly in this House.
Mr. James Johnson: Further to that point of order——
Mr. Speaker: Order. If the hon. Member's further points relate in any way to what have been described as leaks
834
inspired by Ministerial action, I cannot accept them. They are not matters for the Chair. The House makes its own rules and, if it is the wish of the House that hon. Members should be able to put to the Chair complaints about actions by Ministers or Ministerial Departments, the rules of order must be changed. Under the present rules of order, such complaints to the Chair are not permissible. They are not matters for the Chair.
The hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) was kind enough to give me notice that he would seek to raise the point about my acceptance of Private Notice Questions. That again is a matter on which there can be no point of order. It is a matter for the Chair. It is not an easy decision. What happened today showed, I think, that my selection of the Question was justified. Clearly it was a subject in which the House was interested. This is a matter for the Chair, and the Chair will continue to do its best, bearing in mind what the hon. Member has said.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: I am very much obliged to you, Mr. Speaker, for your remarks. My criticism was in no way directed against the Chair. I appreciate the Chair's difficulties. What I was trying to explain, and what I think, with respect, is within the prerogative of the Chair is this. I know that you have sole right to decide whether either a Private Notice Question is asked or a Ministerial statement is made, because your permission is sought.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Let me correct that at once. I have no power to prevent as many Ministers making statements as want to make them.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: Then now you go further on this, Mr. Speaker. What I am trying to say is that if the Government issue Press statement—and that is what they are doing—to build up a good Press report. and then make statements on the very thing they have published, they are then abusing the rights of hon. Members I ask you, therefore, to stop the Government abusing those rights
Mr. Whitelaw: Further to that point of order. It may help the House to get on if I give an answer at this stage. As all right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who have been in government know,

835
Governments frequently find that, much against their will and much as they dislike it, information gets out before they want it to. This has happened over the years to all Governments. I dislike it as much as anyone, and perhaps because I am Leader of the House more than anyone. No one is more anxious than I am to ensure that the House gets the information first, and I shall do everything I can to that end. It is a problem that all Governments have faced. I realise how difficult it is and how much it annoys the House. I shall certainly do my best to stop it.
Mr. James Johnson: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. What defence have I when the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food sincerely but shamelessly admits to a leak by his Department and then does nothing more about it? I appeal to the Leader of the House to discipline his Minister.
Mr. Whitelaw: The hon. Gentleman cannot expect me to discipline anybody. That is well beyond my powers, as I very quickly learned. All that I can say is that I shall do my absolute best to make sure that these things do not occur. They do happen. They happen with all Governments, and it is a difficult problem.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS BILL
  [SECOND ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 27th January].
  [Sir ROBERT GRANT-FERRIS in the Chair]

  INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS BILL
    Clause 5

      RIGHTS OF WORKERS IN RESPECT OF TRADE UNION MEMBERSHIP AND ACTIVITIES
      Amendment proposed: No. 443, in page 3, line 39, at end insert:
      'but this right shall not be exercisable in any employment or occupation where the average length of the employment is less than two years in duration'.—[Mr. Prescott.]
      Question put, That the Amendment be made: —
      The Committee divided: Ayes 266, Noes 300.

      Division No. 83.]

      AYES

      [4.35 p.m.

      Abse, Leo

      Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

      Irvine.Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

      Albu, Austen

      Dempsey, James

      Janner, Greville

      Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

      Doig, Peter

      Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas.

      Allen, Scholefield

      Dormand, J. D.

      Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.)

      Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

      Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

      Ashley, Jack

      Driberg, Tom

      John, Brynmor

      Ashton, Joe

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

      Atkinson, Norman

      Dunn, James A.

      Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Dunnett, Jack

      Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

      Barnes, Michael

      Eadie, Alex

      Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

      Barnett, Joel

      Edelman, Maurice

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Beaney, Alan

      Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

      Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

      Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

      Edwards, William (Merioneth)

      Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

      Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

      Ellis, Tom

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Bidwell, Sydney

      English, Michael

      Kelley, Richard

      Bishop, E. S.

      Evans, Fred

      Kerr, Russell

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Fernyhough, E.

      Kinnock, Neil

      Boardman, H. (Leigh)

      Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)

      Lambie, David

      Booth, Albert

      Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

      Lamond, James

      Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Latham, Arthur

      Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

      Foley, Maurice

      Lawson, George

      Bradley, Tom

      Foot, Michael

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

      Ford, Ben

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

      Forrester, John

      Leonard, Dick

      Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

      Fraser, John (Norwood)

      Lestor Miss Joan

      Buchan, Norman

      Freeson, Reginald

      Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

      Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

      Galpern, Sir Meyer

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

      Garrett, W. E.

      Lipton, Marcus

      Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

      Gilbert, Dr. John

      Lomas Kenneth

      Campbell I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

      Ginsburg, David

      Loughlin, Charles

      Cant, R. B.

      Golding, John

      Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

      Carmichael, Neil

      Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

      Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

      Gourlay, Harry

      Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

      Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      McBride, Neil

      Caste, Rt. Hn. Barbara

      Grant, John D. (lslington, E.)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Clark, David (Colne Valley)

      Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

      McElhone, Frank

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

      Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

      McGuire, Michael

      Cohen, Stanley

      Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Coleman, Donald

      Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

      Mackie, John

      Concannon, J. D.

      Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Conlan, Bernard

      Hardy, Peter

      Maclennan, Robert

      Corbet, Mrs. Freda

      Harper, Joseph

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

      Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      McNamara, J. Kevin

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

      MacPherson, Malcolm

      Cronin, John

      Hattersley, Roy

      Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

      Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)

      Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

      Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

      Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Marks, Kenneth

      Dalyell, Tam

      Hilton, W. S.

      Marquand, David

      Darling, Rt. Hn. George

      Horam, John

      Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Davidson, Arthur

      Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

      Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

      Meacher, Michael

      Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

      Huckfield, Leslie

      Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

      Mendelson, John

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Deakins, Eric

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

      Millan, Bruce

      de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Miller, Dr. M. S.

      Delargy, H. J.

      Hunter, Adam

      Milne, Edward (Blyth)

      Molloy, William

      Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

      Rankin, John

      Swain, Thomas

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

      Taverne, Dick

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)

      Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

      Rhodes, Geoffrey

      Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

      Moyle, Roland

      Richard, Ivor

      Tinn, James

      Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Tomney, Frank

      Murray, Ronald King

      Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)

      Torney, Tom

      Ogden, Eric

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Tuck, Raphael

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Roderick, CaerwynE. (Br'c'n & R'dnor)

      Urwin, T. W.

      O'Malley, Brian

      Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Valley, Eric G.

      Oram, Bert

      Roper, John

      Wainwright, Edwin

      Orbach, Maurice

      Rose, Paul B.

      Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

      Orme, Stanley

      Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Oswald, Thomas

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

      Wallace, George

      Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

      Watkins, David

      Padley, Walter

      Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

      Weitzman, David

      Paget, R. T.

      Short, Mrs. Renee (W'hampton, N. E.)

      Wellbeloved, James

      Palmer, Arthur

      Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

      Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

      Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

      Sillars, James

      White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

      Pardoe, John

      Silverman, Julius

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Parker, John (Dagenham)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Whitlock, William

      Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Small, William

      Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

      Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

      Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

      Spearing, Nigel

      Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

      Pendry, Tom

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Pentland, Norman

      Stallard, A. W.

      Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

      Perry, Ernest G.

      Steel, David

      Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

      Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg

      Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

      Prescott, John

      Stoddart, David (Swindon)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

      Strang, Gavin

      Mr. James Hamilton and

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

      Mr. William Hamling.

      Probert, Arthur

      Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

      NOES

      Adley, Robert

      Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

      Glyn, Dr. Alan

      Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Goodhart, Philip

      Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

      Clegg, Walter

      Goodhew, Victor

      Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

      Cockeram, Eric

      Gower, Raymond

      Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

      Cooke, Robert

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

      Astor, John

      Coombs, Derek

      Gray, Hamish

      Atkins, Humphrey

      Cooper, A. E.

      Green, Alan

      Awdry, Daniel

      Cordle, John

      Grieve, Percy

      Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

      Cormack, Patrick

      Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

      Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

      Costain, A. P.

      Grylls, Michael

      Balniel, Lord

      Critchley, Julian

      Gummer, SeIwyn

      Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      Crouch, David

      Gurden, Harold

      Batsford, Brian

      Crowder, F. P.

      Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

      Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Hall, John (Wycombe)

      Bell, Ronald

      Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Benyon, W.

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj-Gen. Jack

      Hannam, John (Exeter)

      BERRY, Hn. Anthony

      Dean, Paul

      Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

      Biffen, Jonn

      Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

      Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Digby, Simon Wingfield

      Harvey, Sir Arthur vere

      Blaker, Peter

      Dixon, Piers

      Haselhurst, A Ian

      Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

      Dodds-Parker, Douglas

      Hastings, Stephen

      Body, Richard

      Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

      Havers, Michael

      Boscawen, Robert

      Drayson, G. B.

      Hawkins, Paul

      Bossom, Sir Clive

      du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Bowden, Andrew

      Dykes, Hugh

      Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

      Eden, Sir John

      Heseltine, Michael

      Braine, Bernard

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Hicks, Robert

      Bray, Ronald

      Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

      Hiley, Joseph

      Brewis, John

      Elliott, R. W. (N-c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

      Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

      Brinton, Sir Tatton

      Emery, Peter

      Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

      Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

      Farr, John

      Holland Philip

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Fell, Anthony

      Hoit, Miss Mary

      Bruce-Gardyne, J.

      Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

      Hordern, Peter

      Bryan, Paul

      Fidler, Michael

      Hornby, Richard

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N & M)

      Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

      Homsby-Smith Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

      Buck, Antony

      Fisher, N igel (Surbiton)

      Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

      Bullus, Sir Eric

      Ftetcher-Cooke, Charles

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Burden, F. A.

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Foster, Sir John

      Hunt, John

      Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray & Nairn)

      Fowler, Norman

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Carlisle, Mark

      Fox, Marcus

      Iremonger, T. L.

      Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

      James, David

      Channon, Paul

      Fry, Peter

      Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

      Chapman, Sydney

      Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

      Jessel, Toby

      Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

      Gibson-Watt, David

      Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

      Chichester-CIark, R.

      Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

      Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

      Churchill, W. S.

      Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

      Jopling, Michael

      840

      841

      Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

      More, Jasper

      Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

      Kaberry Sir Donald

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

      Soref, Harold

      Kellett Mrs. Elaine

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Speed, Keith

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Mudd, David

      Spence, John

      Kilfedder, James

      Murton, Oscar

      Sproat, lain

      Kimball, Marcus

      Nabarro, Sir Gerald

      Stainton, Keith

      King Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

      Neave, Airey

      Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Nicholls, Sir Harmar

      Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

      Kinsey, J. B.

      Normanton, Tom

      Stokes, John

      Kirk, Peter

      Nott, John

      Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

      Kitson, Timothy

      Onslow, Cranley

      Sutcliffe, John

      Knight, Mrs. Jill

      Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

      Tapsell, Peter

      Knox, David

      Osborn, John

      Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

      Lambton, Antony

      Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

      Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

      Lane, David

      Page, Graham (Crosby)

      Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Page, John (Harrow, W.)

      Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)

      Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

      Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

      Tebbit, Norman

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Peel, John

      Temple, John M.

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Percival, Ian

      Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

      Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

      Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

      Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

      Longden, Gilbert

      Pike, Miss Mervyn

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

      Loveridge, John

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

      McAdden, Sir Stephen

      Pounder, Rafton

      Tilney, John

      MacArthur, Ian

      Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

      Trafford, Dr. Anthony

      McCrindle, R. A.

      Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

      Trew, Peter

      McLaren, Martin

      Proudfoot, Wilfred

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

      Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

      Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

      McManus, Frank

      Quennell, Miss J. M.

      Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

      Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

      Raison, Timothy

      Vickers, Dame Joan

      McNair-Wilson, Michael

      Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

      Waddington, David

      McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Maddan, Martin

      Redmond, Robert

      Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

      Madel, David

      Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

      Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

      Maginnis, John E.

      Rees, Peter (Dover)

      Walters, Dennis

      Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Ward, Dame Irene

      Marten, Neil

      Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

      Warren, Kenneth

      Mather, Carol

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Maude, Angus

      Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Whits, Roger (Gravesend)

      Mawby, Ray

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

      Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

      Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Wilkinson, John

      Mills, Peter (Torrington)

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

      Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

      Rost, Peter

      Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Royle, Anthony

      Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

      Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)

      Russell, Sir Ronald

      Woodnutt Mark

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Worsley, Marcus

      Moate, Roger

      Scott, Nicholas

      Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

      Molyneaux, James

      Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

      Younger, Hn. George

      Money, Ernie D.

      Shelton, William (Clapham)

      Monks, Mrs. Connie

      Simeons, Charles

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Monro, Hector

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Mr. Reginald Eyre and

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Mr. Tim Fortescue.

      4.45 p.m.
      The Chairman: The next Amendment is No. 417—in page 4, line 1, leave out from ' union' to end of line 5, standing m the name of the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle). With it, I suggest that we consider Amendment No. 421, in page 4, line 1, after 'union', insert:
      'and any other activities which derive from his trade union membership'.
      and Amendment No. 498, in page 4, line 5, at end insert:
      'which is designated in and subject to the rules of the union'.
      both of which are also in the right hon. Lady's name. Mr. Harold Walker.
      Mr. Harold Walker: Under protest, Sir Robert, we are not moving Amendment No. 417.
      The Chairman: The next Amendment for debate is No. 501.
      Mr. Harold Walker: I beg to move Amendment No. 501, in page 4, line 6, leave out from 'be' to the end of line 21 and insert:
      'an implied term of every contract of employment that neither the employer nor any person acting on the employer's behalf shall do anything for the purpose of—

      (a) preventing or deterring the employee from being or becoming a member of a trade union or penalising him by reason of his being or becoming such a member, or

      (b) requiring or compelling him to be or become a member of an organisation of employees which is not a trade union within the meaning of this section or penalising him by reason of his not being or becoming such a member,

      843
      and any provision of such contract inconsistent with that term or purporting to exclude or modify it shall be void.
      For the purposes of this section "trade union" includes any organisation of employees whether or not it is a registered trade union within the meaning of this Act but excludes any such organisation if it is under the domination or control of any employer or group of employers or of one or more employers' associations'.
      We move the Amendment to reassert in more practicable terms—terms which seem to us to accord more closely with the realities of industry than do the right hon. Gentleman's terms—the statutory right to belong to a trade union. The Amendment reproduces almost exactly the words included in the Industrial Relations Bill presented to the House by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) earlier this year —words chosen after the fullest consultation with both sides of industry.
      There are a number of differences between the two formulae. First, we meet, in Clause 5(2) as drafted, for the first time that new scourge of the Secretary of State's—the unfair industrial practice. That is a concept the iniquities of which we shall expose and oppose in later debates, so I shall not go into detail now. I shall merely run up the flag of opposition. Secondly, the subsection props up the provision which we discredited and demolished so effectively yesterday.
      Thirdly, there is the profoundly important point that our Amendment protects the right of the workers to join an independent union whether it is registered under the Government's stringent and oppressive rules, provided for in later Clauses, or otherwise. It is contradictory, not to say extraordinary that when it comes to the application of the punitive part of the Bill, it is so drafted, by the inclusion of references to organisations of workers, that unions, registered and unregistered, are brought into the scope, whereas, in this subsection, those who have been coerced by the Secretary of State within a registered straitjacket can be stripped of their statutory rights. Unless we get a satisfactory and convincing reply on this matter, we shall be obliged to divide the Committee.
      The Solicitor-General (Sir Geoffrey Howe): We cannot invite the Committee
      844
      to accept the Amendment. I follow the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker) in not discussing now the basic concept of the unfair industrial practice because we can go into that more fully later on, save only to say that it does not strike us as astonishing or remarkable that the Committee should be considering and identifying and defining certain practices on both sides of industry which are or are not to be regarded as fair or unfair.
      We cannot regard it as right for the protection of the right to belong and the right not to belong to be defined as suggested in the Amendment. The rights we spent a long time discussing last night deserve greater prominence than mere inclusion in the implied terms and conditions of employees' contracts of service. We believe that this right should be formulated consistently with the other points of principle which the Committee considered last night.
      There is also the proposed limitation in the Amendment of the right to belong protected by statute, to a registered trade union. But that right is also consistent with the rest of the policy of the Bill. It was one of the recommendations of the Donovan Commission that the term "trade union" should be applied only to registered bodies. So far as Donovan considered this point, he recommended that the right to belong to a trade union should be confined to a trade union defined in this way. We believe it to be consistent that, if a body and its members are to have statutorily defined rights to belong, which they may defend against their employers and against all the world, then the organisations in respect of which those rights would be available should be clearly defined and identified, having accepted plain rights and obligations, and there is no difficulty for any bona fide workers' organisation to achieve the status which would allow its members to enjoy this right.
      We also provide that an employer shall not be entitled to require his employees to belong to a dominated or non-independent union. To that extent, both sides of the Committee march together. The right of a worker to complain about an employer insisting upon his membership of a non-independent union is contained in Clause 5(l)(b), so on that point the employees' protection against

      845
      a requirement to belong is similar. Points of principle divide the Committee on this Amendment, and for that reason I invite the Committee to reject it.
      Question put, That the Amendment be made: —
      The Committee divided: Ayes 263, Noes 302.

      Division No. 84.

      AYES

      [4.55 p.m.

      Abse, Leo

      Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Albu, Austen

      Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

      McElhone, Frank

      Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      McGuire, Michael

      Allen, Scholefield

      Foley. Maurice

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

      Foot, Michael

      Mackie, John

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Ford, Ben

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Ashley, Jack

      Forrester, John

      Maclennan, Robert

      Ashton, Joe

      Fraser, John (Norwood)

      McMillan, Torn (Glasgow, C.)

      Atkinson, Norman

      Freeson, Reginald

      MacPherson, Malcolm

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Galpern, Sir Myer

      Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

      Barnes, Michael

      Garrett, W. E.

      Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

      Barnett, Joel

      Gilbert, Dr. John

      Marks, Kenneth

      Beaney, Aian

      Ginsburg, David

      Marquand, David

      Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

      Golding, John

      Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Bennett, James (Ghasgow, Bridgeton)

      Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

      Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Gourlay, Harry

      Meacher, Michael

      Bishop, E. S.

      Grant, Geroge (Morpeth)

      Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

      Mendelson, John

      Boardman, H. (Leigh)

      Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Booth, Albert

      Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

      Millan, Bruce

      Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Miller, Dr. M. S.

      Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

      Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

      Millne, Edward (Blyth)

      Bradky, Tom

      Harnnan William (G'gow, Maryhill)

      Molloy, William

      Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

      Hardy, Peter

      Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

      Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

      Harrision, Walter (Wakefield)

      Morris, Alferd (Wythenshawe)

      Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

      Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Buchan, Norman

      Hattersley Roy

      Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

      Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

      Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

      Moyle, Roland

      Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

      Heffer, Eric S

      Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

      Hilton' W. S.

      Murray, Ronald King

      Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

      Horam, John

      Ogden, Eric

      Carrt, R. B.

      Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Carmichael, Neil

      HOWELL Denis (Small Heath)

      O'Malley, Brian

      Carter, Ray (Birm ngh'm, Northlield)

      Huckfield, Lesile

      Oram,Bert

      Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

      Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn(Anglessy)

      Orbach, Maurice

      Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Orme, Stanley

      Clark, David (Colne Valley)

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

      Oswald, Thomas

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

      Hushes Roy (Newport)

      Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Cohen, Stanley

      Hunter, Adam

      Padley, Walter

      Concannon, J. D.

      lrvine,Rt. Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

      Paget, R. T.

      Conlan, Bernard

      Janner, Grevillie

      Palmer, Arthur

      Corbet, Mrs. Freda

      Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

      Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

      Jeger, Mrs. Lena(H'b-n'St.P'cras,S.)

      Parker, John (Dagenham)

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Cronin, John

      Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

      John, Brynmor

      Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

      Dalyell, Tam

      Johnson Carol (Lewisham, S.)

      Pendry, Tom

      Darling, Rt. Hn. George

      Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

      Pentland, Norman

      Davidson Arthur

      Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

      Perry, Ernest G.

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

      Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

      Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

      Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Prescott, John

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

      Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

      Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Deakins, Eric

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Rankin, John

      de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

      Kelley, Richard

      Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

      Delargy, H. J.

      Kerr, Russell

      Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

      Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

      Kinnock, Neil

      Rhodes, Geoffrey

      Dempsey, James

      Lambie, David

      Richard, Ivor

      Dolg, Peter

      Lamond, James

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Dormand, J. D.

      Latham, Arthur

      Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)

      Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

      Lawson, George

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n & R'dnor)

      Driberg, Tom

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Leonard, Dick

      Roper, John

      Dunn, James A.

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Rose, Paul B.

      Dunnett, Jack

      Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

      Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

      Eadie, Alex

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

      Edelman, Maurice

      Lipton, Marcus

      Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

      Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

      Lomas, Kenneth

      Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

      Edwards, William (Merioneth)

      Loughlin, Charles

      Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)

      Ellis, Tom

      Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

      Silkin Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

      English, Michael

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

      Sillars, James

      Evans, Fred

      Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

      Silverman, Julius

      Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

      McBride, Neil

      Skinner, Dennis

      Small, William

      Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

      White, James (Gasgow, Pollok)

      Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

      Tinn, James

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Spearing, Nigel

      Tomney, Frank

      Whitlock, William

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Tomey, Tom

      Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Stallard, A. W.

      Tuck, Raphael

      Williams, Alan (Swansea, w.)

      Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

      Urwin, T. W.

      Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

      Stoddart, David (Swindon)

      Varley, Eric G.

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Storehouse, Rt. Hn. John

      Wainwright, Edwin

      Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

      Strang, Gavin

      Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

      Wilson, William (Coventry, s.)

      Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Summerskril, Hn. Dr. Shirley

      Wallace, George

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Swain, Thomas

      Watkins, David

      Mr. Donald Coleman and

      Taverne, Dick

      Weitzman, David

      Mr. William Hamling.

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)

      Wellbeloved, James

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Wells, William (WalsaH, N.)

      NOES

      Adley, Robert

      Dean, Paul

      Hordern, Peter

      Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

      Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

      Hornby, Richard

      Allason, James (Hemet Hempstead)

      Digby, Simon Wingfield

      Hornsby-Smith. Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

      Amery, Rt. Hn. Jutian

      Dixon, Piers

      Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

      Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

      Dodds-Parker, Douglas

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Astor, John

      Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

      Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

      Atkins, Humphrey

      Drayson, G. B.

      Hunt, John

      Awdry, Daniel

      du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

      Dykes, Hugh

      Iremonger, T. L.

      Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

      Eden, Sir John

      James, David

      Balniel, Lord

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

      Barber, Rt. Hn Anthony

      Eillot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

      Jessel, Toby

      Batsford, Brian

      Elliott, R.W(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

      Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

      Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

      Emery, Peter

      Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

      Beff, Ronald

      Eyrne, Reginald

      Jopling, Michael

      Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

      Farr, John

      Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

      Benyon, W.

      Fell, Anthony

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Berry, Hn. Anthony

      Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

      Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

      Biffen John

      Fidler, Micheal

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

      Kilfedder, James

      Blaker Peter

      Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

      Kimball, Marcus

      Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

      Body, Richard

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Boscawen, Robert

      Foster, Sir John

      Kinsey, J. R.

      Bossom, Sir Clive

      Fowler, Norman

      Kirk, Peter

      Bowden, Andrew

      Fox, Marcus

      Kitson, Timothy

      Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

      Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

      Knight, Mrs. Jill

      Braine, Bernard

      Fry, Peter

      Knox, David

      Bray, Ronald

      Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

      Lambton, Anthony

      Brews, John

      Gardner, Edward

      Lane, David

      Brinton, Sir Tatton

      Gibson-Watt David

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Brocktebank-Fowler, Christopher

      Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

      Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Bruce-Gardyne, J.

      Gfyn, Dr. Alan

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Bryan, Paul

      Goodhart, Phillip

      Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm;th, Langstone)

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

      Goodhew,Victor

      Longden, Gilbert

      Buck, Antony

      Gower Raymond

      Loveridge, John

      Bumus, Sir Eric

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

      McAdden, Sir Joseph

      Burden, F. A.

      Gray Hamish

      MacArthur, lan

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Green Alan

      McCrindle, R. A.

      Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray&Nairn)

      Grieve' Percy

      McLaren, Martin

      Carlisle, Mark

      Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

      Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

      Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Grylis, Michael

      McMaster, Stanley

      Charmon, Paul

      Gummer, Selwyn

      Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

      Chapman, Sydney

      Curden, Harold

      McNair-Wilson, Michael

      Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

      Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

      McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

      Chichester-Clark, R.

      Hall, John (Wycombe)

      Maddan, Martin

      Churchill, W. S.

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Madel, David

      Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Maginnis, John E.

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Harmam, John (Exeter)

      Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

      Clegg, Walter

      Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

      Marten, Neil

      Cockeram, Eric

      Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Mather, Carol

      Cooke, Robert

      Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

      Maude, Angus

      Coombs, Derek

      Hasethurst, Alan

      Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

      Cooper, A. E.

      Havers, Michael

      Mawby, Ray

      Cordle, John

      Hawkins, Paul

      Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

      Cormack, Patrick

      Hayhoe, Bamey

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Costain, A. P.

      Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Mills, Peter (Torrington)

      Critchley, Julian

      Heseltine, Michael

      Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

      Crouch, David

      Hicks, Robert

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Crowder, F. P.

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Mitchell, Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Hiley, Joseph

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

      Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

      Moate, Roger

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

      Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

      Molyneaux, James

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

      Holland, Philip

      Money, Ernie

      Holt, Miss Mary

      848

      849

      Monks, Mrs. Connie

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Tebbit, Norman

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

      Temple, John M.

      More, Jasper

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

      Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

      Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

      Mudd, David

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

      Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

      Murton, Oscar

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Tilney, John

      Nabarro, Sir Gerald

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Trafford, Dr. Anthony

      Neave, Airey

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Trew, Peter

      Nicholls, Sir Harmar

      Rost, Peter

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Normanton, Tom

      Royte, Anthony

      Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

      Nott, John

      Russell, Sir Ronald

      Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

      Onslow, Cranley

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Vickers, Dame Joan

      Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

      Scott, Nicholas

      Waddington, David

      Osborn, John

      Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

      Shelton, William (Clapham)

      Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

      Page, Graham (Crosby)

      Simeons, Charles

      Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

      Page, John (Harrow, W.)

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Walters, Dennis

      Pardoe, John

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Ward, Dame Irene

      Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

      Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

      Warren, Kenneth

      Peel, John

      Soref, Harold

      WeatherilI, Bernard

      Percival, Ian

      Speed, Keith

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

      Spence, John

      White, Roger (Gravesend)

      Pike, Miss Mervyn

      Sproat, Iain

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Stainton, Keith

      Wilkinson, John

      Pounder, Rafton

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

      Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

      Steel, David

      Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

      Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

      Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

      Proudfoot, Wilfred

      Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

      Woodnutt, Mark

      Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

      Stokes, John

      Worsley, Marcus

      Quennell, Miss J. M.

      Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

      Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

      Raison, Timothy

      Sutcliffe, John

      Younger, Hn. George

      Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

      Tapsell, Peter

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

      Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Redmond, Robert

      Taylor Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

      Mr. Hector Monro and

      Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

      Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

      Mr. Tim Fortescue.

      Rees, Peter (Dover)

      Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)

      5.0 p.m.
      The Solicitor-General: I beg to move Amendment No. 368, in page 4, line 14, leave out 'person as an employee' and insert 'worker'.
      The Chairman: With this Amendment it will be for the convenience of the Committee if we discuss Amendment No. 369, in line 34, leave out from 'engage' to 'to' in line 35 and insert:
      'a worker who, if engaged by him, would be a worker'.
      and Amendment No. 464, in page 5, line 10, leave out 'of employment' and insert 'with his employer'.
      The Solicitor-General: The purpose of these Amendments is to extend the provisions of Clause 5 not merely to employees, that is to say people employed on a contract of employment or a contract of service, but to people defined elsewhere in the Bill as "workers", that is to say to those people working on contracts to perform personally any work or services. These are people who are not necessarily employed on a regular contract of employment but who are, for example, employed on a job-to-job basis, such as plumbers doing independent contracts from stage to stage, actors employed, as
      850
      some may be, on particular contracts to provide services on a given occasion but not actually employed as employees, or musicians who may be employed not as employees but who would come within the definition of "workers" as set out in Clause 48.
      The other category to whom this series of Amendments would extend the provisions and benefits of Clause 5 are persons employed as civil servants who do not necessarily work under a contract of employment authough they are, as defined, in employment under or for the purposes of a Government Department.
      I hope that the Committee will agree to accept the Amendments which go together. The first is to replace the concept of an employee at lines 14 and 34 of page 4 with the concept of a worker which brings in the wider definition. Amendment No. 464 alters the phrase "contract of employment" to "contract with his employer" so as to extend again the definition of working hours in the same way to this category of persons. I hope the Committee will feel that I have sufficiently explained the object of the Amendments and that they are sensible proposals to consider and accept.
      Amendment agreed to.
      The Chairman: Mr. Harold Walker, Amendment No. 499.
      Mr. Harold Walker: Under protest at the restrictions imposed by the guillotine. I do not move the Amendment.
      Amendment made: No. 369, in page 4, line 34, leave out from 'engage' to 'to' in line 35 and insert 'a worker who, if engaged by him, would be a worker'. —[The Solicitor-General.]
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: I beg to move, Amendment No. 446, in page 4, line 38, at end insert:
      (3A) Where an exempt agreement is for the time being in force between an employers' association and a trade union, a worker to whom the exempt agreement applies shall not have the right to refuse to be a member of that trade union unless he objects on grounds of conscience to being a member of a trade union and agrees to pay appropriate contributions to the trade union in lieu of membership of it; and accordingly it shall not then be an unfair industrial practice for the employer, or for any person acting on behalf of the employer,—

      (a) to dismiss, penalise or otherwise discriminate against any such worker on the grounds that he is not and has not objected on grounds of conscience to being a member of that trade union, or, having so objected, has not agreed, or has refused or failed, to pay such contributions, or

      (b) to refuse to engage as an employee a person who, if so engaged, would be an employee to whom the exempt agreement applies, on the grounds that he is not and has not objected on grounds of conscience to being a member of that trade union, or, having so objected, has not agreed, or has refused or failed, to pay such contributions.

      The Chairman: We shall take at the same time the following:
      Amendment No. 392, in clause 7, page 6, line 8, after 'void', insert:
      'save that the Secretary of State may provide for the exemption of certain agreements from the provisions of this subsection through affirmative resolution of Parliament and that such agreements so exempted will be legally enforceable contracts to which opting-out arrangements made available for other agreements under section 32 and section 33 of this Act shall not apply. Such agreements exempted by the Secretary of State shall be subject to investigation by the Monopolies Commission prior to an exemption resolution being laid before Parliament'.
      Amendment No. 448, in page 6, line 25, at end add:
      (4) Subsections (1) and (2) of this section shall not apply to any provision of an exempt agreement.
      Amendment No. 449, in page 6, line 34, after 'agreement', insert 'or exempt agreement'.
      Amendment No. 450, in page 6, line 37, after 'agreement', insert 'or exempt agreement'.
      Amendment No. 451, in page 6, line 41, after 'agreement', insert 'or exempt agreement'.
      Amendment No. 452, in page 7, line 4, after 'agreement', insert 'or exempt agreement'.
      Amendment No. 453, in page 7, line 14, after 'agreement', insert 'or exempt agreement'.
      Amendment No. 454, in page 7, line 27, after 'work', insert 'or in entertainment work'.
      Amendment No. 455, in page 7, line 31, after 'section', insert '(a)'.
      Amendment No. 456, in page 7, line 33, at end add:
      (b) 'entertainment work' shall include performances for the purposes of the theatre, cinematography, sound or television broadcasting and recording.
      Amendment No. 457, in Clause 9, page 7, line 35, after 'agreement', insert 'or an exempt agreement'.
      Amendment No. 458, in Clause 10, page 8, line 14, after 'agreement' insert 'or an exempt agreement'.
      Amendment No. 459, in Clause 11, page 9, line 2, after '(1)', insert:
      'Subject to subsection (2) of this section'.
      Amendment No. 460, in page 9, line 14, at end insert:
      (1A) Subject to subsections (1B) and (1C) of this section, where an agreement has been made, whether before or after the coming into operation of this section, between an employers' association and one or more trade unions whereby the employers' association agrees, in respect of workers of one or more descriptions specified in the agreement, that their terms and conditions of employment by any member of that employers' association, or of any member of any organisation of employers which is a constituent of or affiliated to or is represented at that employers' asociation, shall include such a condition as is set out in subsection (1) of this section, the Secretary of State may, on an application made to him by the parties to the agreement, by order made by statutory instrument provide that the agreement shall be deemed to be an agency shop agreement made between each employer who is or shall thereafter become any such member and the trade union or trade unions.

      853
      (1B) An order under this section may be made by the Secretary of State if it appears to him that by reason of—

      (a) the casual or intermitent nature of the employment of the workers of the description or descriptions specified in the agreement, or

      (b) the transitory nature of a substantial number of the employers of these workers,

      the opportunity of such workers of entering into agency shop agreements is materially impaired.
      (1C) The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument revoke any order made under subsection (1A) of this section and the relevant agreement shall thereupon cease to be deemed to be an agency shop agreement.
      Amendment No. 461, in Clause 87, page 62, line 13, after '(2)', insert:
      'Subject to subsection (3) of this section'.
      Amendment No. 462, in page 62, line 18, at end insert:
      (2A) A company shall not be regarded for the purposes of this section as an extraneous party in relation to an industrial dispute if—

      (a) it is a company associated to a company which is an employer who is a party to the industrial dispute, and

      (b) it has during the continuance of that dispute supplied goods or furnished services in lieu of goods or services which would, but for that dispute, have been supplied or furnished by the company which is a party to that dispute.

      Amendment No. 463, in page 62, line 31, at end add:
      (4) For the purposes of this section two companies shall be taken to be associated one to another if one is a subsidiary of the other, or both are subsidiaries of a third company.
      New Clause 9—(Provision for exemption of certain agreements).
      New Clause 10—(Revocation of orders related to register of exempt agreements).
      New Clause 11— (Register of exempt agreements).
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: I feel that the selection of this group is very sensible. It allows us to make a proper investigation into this aspect of the Bill without wasting time.
      We knew that Clause 5 would of necessity receive the sort of investigation that it has had.
      We spent yesterday on generalisations. General principles were expressed and there was a clash of views. Today, this group of Amendments brings us from the general to the particular. It is more humdrum but perhaps more important, in that we are putting specific points to
      854
      the right hon. Gentleman to justify changes which will not interfere with the general principle of the Bill. The Amendments seek to provide a limited exemption from the rigid provisions in relation to the closed shop contained in Clauses 5 and 7. This is necessary where certain provisions would otherwise conflict with the general purposes of the Bill as set out in Clause 1.
      It was explained yesterday and, I think generally accepted, that trade unions are diverse. Some are professional associations at the same time and I am glad that this has been recognised in the proposals which are to be made to facilitate the continued operation of the B.M.A. and similar professional bodies which, although their members must have special qualifications, perform similar functions to trade unions. There are circumstances in which the total abolition of "any" kind of closed shop provision made between employers and unions can be unfair and damaging, and I know that it would not be the wish of my right hon. Friend to be unfair and damaging if a case for retention can be made out.
      I have attempted to indicate the general nature of these provisions in my proposed new Clause 9(4). The situation arises in relation to unions of people who are casually employed and engaged on individual contracts, people who are in occupations in which there is overcrowding and unemployment and, as a consequence, considerable poverty and where joint arrangements have been made between unions and management to deal effectively with these problems by methods which make industrial conflict a rarity.
      I agreed with my right hon. Friend yesterday when he implied that, whilst he consulted management, he did not feel that he must accept their point of view in formulating legislation. Although I agree with him that the Government must make up their own mind, having had their consultations, I suggest that a strong argument to be taken into account is that union and management are in agreement that a certain action would be in the interests of the industry and the employees. The union and the management side of the theatrical profession are as one in the suggestions which I am making.
      Mr. Stanley Orme: That applies to other industries as well.
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: Certainly. I will use Equity and the acting profession as an example, although there may be other groups engaged casually in the creative side of the entertainments industry.
      It has been said in the House before, but it should be repeated, that the employment situation and the earnings in this profession are truly appalling. An average actor in a year will work for no more than 17 weeks in the theatre and 19 days in all the other media. His average earnings are about £800 a year. For actresses the figures are even lower. The amount of unemployment that is revealed by these figures is an unnecessary burden on the state in these inflationary days when so much effort is being made to minimise Government expenditure.
      In spite of this and of all the advice in the careers pamphlet put out by the Department of Education and Science there is an unending flow of would-be actors and actresses who are undeterred by the poor conditions because they are so fascinated by this art. Some would actually pay to be allowed to put their feet on the professional stage. The strength of this emotion, which is in some ways commendable, could be dangerous. In normal professions one would expect the uncertainty of employment and low remuneration to act as a deterrent to people wanting to enter the profession—
      5.15 p.m.
      Mr. Raymond Gower: Are the figures of average earnings given by my hon. Friend limited to persons appearing on the professional stage, or do they include people appearing in variety? Actors tend to overflow into closely analogous activities.
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: The figure covers the whole membership of Equity. In a normal profession those appalling figures alone would be sufficient to regulate the number of people wishing to enter the profession, but that is not so because of the glamour of the theatre. Equity has never had a membership of more than 20,000—it is rather lower at the moment —yet more than 42,000 newcomers have come into Equity in the past ten years. The continuance of dilution on such a scale can only be harmful to the standards
      856
      of the profession. In the case of lawyers and doctors the effect of a closed shop is created by the necessary qualifications which must be acquired before they can practise. The professional associations of doctors and lawyers therefore act to some extent as trade unions and the Government have made provision for them to carry on their operations in this way. But the acting profession cannot be protected by such clear-cut qualifications. It is not practicable to define a qualification for the would-be entrant except on the basis of an offer of employment, which is tantamount to accepting that a qualification has been attained. The drama schools issue certificates to successful students, but it is impossible for the profession, with its great traditions, to restrict entrance to the profession merely to those who have gone through drama school.
      In the film industry and on television, many good films and programmes have been made which have earned millions of dollars, by the employment of performers who have been admitted to the profession without having gone through drama school. That is not to say that they have not a qualification. A qualification has been recognised by the offer of employment. The qualifications and the standards vital in medicine and important in law are right, but I suggest to my right hon. Friend that it is just as important to accept a standard such as I have described in our cultural life as to accept the standards of medicine and the law.
      The protection needed by the acting profession, which is so open to exploitation, has been obtained only by a form of union-shop established by Equity, which is both a union shop and a professional association. The basic principles of this shop were established by leading actors as far back as the 1930s and were explained in some detail yesterday by the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins). They were adopted, as he reminded us, by Oliver Stanley when he was Minister of Labour. Whilst hon. Gentlemen opposite can mention Oliver Stanley in passing, members of the Conservative Party will listen with special respect, because his skill, shrewdness and dedication to duty inspired our party, ana we know that he would not have done this unless he had thought it was wise to do so. He founded the joint industrial

      857
      councils, based on the principle of full organisation on both sides. This system of joint councils has been extended to the film industry and television with good effect.
      The absence of strikes, which have been prevalent in so many other industries, proves how successful the councils have been in negotiating terms and conditions of employment. I am delighted that I am still able to say that, because some weeks ago one or two extremists were shown the door when they tried to introduce the disruptive tactics which have been accepted by many other industries into this sensible profession. I give this as evidence that the procedures which I want to perpetuate as having been successful.
      Mr. Orme: The hon. Gentleman is deploying his arguments with great skill and the Committee is listening with deep interest, but he must be aware that Equity can be considered in parallel with other sectors of British industry where the effect of the Bill will be to remove the very stability that he is asking for.
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: I know my right hon. Friend is open to argument about other industries and other professions, and I know that I shall not lose the support of the hon. Gentleman when I say that the claims of Equity are particularly strong. There is indeed no alternative. In many other industries there may be alternatives, but I can see no alternative in the acting profession. Equity has not only given leadership but has maintained professional standards on both sides of the profession. It has brought order into a situation of potential anarchy. Without the joint councils we should not have seen the peaceful development of the profession which makes such a large contribution to the earnings of the country. That evidence is strong and calls for a great deal of sympathy from the Treasury Bench.
      This system has all but eliminated the former widespread curse of the theatre, the notorious bogus manager, and if hon. Members read the novels of only a few years past they will discover that such managers were perpetually on the scene. Now they are hardly ever heard of. The employers and the union together prevent a manager who has cheated his artists, or is in debt to his trade creditors, from operating again
      858
      until those debts are cleared. But this discipline, derived from the joint councils, is enforceable only because the union has the power to instruct its members to refuse engagements with persons, whether fellow artists or employers, who are in breach of their obligations to the joint councils. This is the only sanction the industry has got to keep the industry clean and in operation, and this is a point which I should like to underline.
      Unless my right hon. Friend can show me that there are alternative means available to bring about this desired result, I shall have to press the point by asking for support from all parts of the Committee. This system has a similar effect to the disciplinary powers held by the statutory authorities controlling the professions of law and medicine, no greater and no less. Indeed, it is identical and ought to be considered in the same way. This whole successful system cannot remain effective if performers, whether under pressure of unemployment or because they are newcomers to the business, can stay outside the union or resign from it in order to defy the instructions which the regulations of managements and unions are enforced.
      I know my right hon. Friend will take into account the importance of the fact that the Theatres' National Committee, a non-political association of theatrical employers representing the whole of this country's living theatre, has declared that it would deeply regret the abandonment of the Theatre Council system because, as it says,
      "Over the years it has greatly enhanced the relationship between managers and artists."
      Even more clearly, the Council of Repertory Theatres, representing the managers of all the non-profit distributing repertory theatres, has set out its views in a letter to my right hon. Friend as follows:
      "The theatrical profession is over-crowded and complex and my council is of the opinion that to maintain order and discipline and to safeguard both artists and reputable managers, it is essential to ensure the maintenance of 100 per cent, membership of Equity."
      This is a very proper statement based on vast experience and is in the interests of managements, actors and actresses, and indeed of the nation, in the sense that the sensible regulation which flows from it prevents unnecessary unemployment, which would be even greater than it is today.

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      Moreover, the employers in the theatre, films and television have agreed with Equity upon sophisticated arrangements to prevent the damaging consequences which would flow from the utterly uncontrolled flow of newcomers, talented or otherwise, into the ranks of the performers. The glamour and special position of the profession attracts people to it, even though all the economic arguments and good sense itself should tell them to keep out of it.
      5.30 p.m.
      Mr. Dan Jones: The hon. Gentleman has said that the theatrical profession is over-full. May I invite him to agree that the same argument applies to British industry, where there are some 700,000 workers outside who would like to be inside?
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: The hon. Gentleman is pursuing yesterday's argument. Yesterday's debate was on general matters and was a very good debate and brought forward brilliant contributions. This applies to the hon. Member for Birmingham, All Saints (Mr. Brian Walden) and also to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. When my right hon. Friend was addressing the Committee hon Members were quiet, when in fact it was part of their tactics to be noisy. Again the hon. Member for All Saints had a quiet audience of hon. Members when he was making fundamental attacks on some of the things we believe in. However, today we are on particular matters and it is a particular matter with which I am now dealing.
      The operation of the agreements by the joint council is so flexible that, though they are beginning to reduce the total numbers coming into a profession which has not room for them, they leave in every case the decision as to who shall come in to the employer and the union has no veto. This is not a question of where a union want to close the shop and is against anybody coming in. The union wants its arguments to be heard by the management side and takes care that they are, but if at the end of the day the management says, "We have heard your argument and we still want to let in this person", then the union does not veto that decision. That sort of flexibility works in practice and does not cut across
      860
      the principles laid down in the Bill by my right hon. Friend.
      Yet I am advised that technically these necessary arrangements fall under the heading of "pre-entry closed shops". I cannot accept that. This arises despite the fact that Equity, apart from this technicality, has neither operated, nor sought, any other than an open shop—that is, agreements under which newcomers are brought in by employers and then are allowed to join the union.
      Mr. Eddie Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman says that he is advised about these matters. Could I ask who has advised him?
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: I have now been in the House for 21 years, but when I am interested in a subject I probe every body and every group that I think can assist me. I then use my judgment as a parliamentary magistrate equivalent to see which arguments I ought to take up and which to leave out. When they convince me the argument is good, I use it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Has the hon. Gentleman got a brief?"] I am reading from what are called "copious notes". I would advise the hon. Gentleman not to attack somebody for using notes. Sometimes this speeds up the proceedings and gives opportunities for more hon. Members to take part in a discussion.
      I wish to submit a fully prepared case to my right hon. Friend on this very important matter. I want him to change slightly, from the Bill as it now stands and it is for this reason I took the trouble to prepare a case which I thought would read well as well as sound all right.
      I hope I have said enough to indicate that I have made a clear case for consideration and amendment for some exemption from the utterly rigid provisions in the Bill as now drafted. I do not believe the only cases for exemption are medicine and the law. There are occasions when we must accept that there are equivalent qualifications which have arisen through experience and good sound sense. The Minister's statement of of his intention to amend the agency shop provisions is welcome. But I should stress that, because of the over-crowded and complex nature of the entertainment

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      industry and of its outstanding success in terms of the principles contained in Clause 1 of the Bill, a success founded on a union shop, what I seek is a limited maintenance of the possibility of compulsory union membership in such cases as these. They are always prepared to take into account the views of the conscientious objector.
      I know that I have not told my right hon. Friend anything new, but I come to some words to which I hope he will listen very carefully. I have embarked on this Amendment with some confidence, but I would point out that my wording of this Amendment is not to be regarded as sacrosant. If the Secretary of State can achieve the same ends as I have tried to achieve, by words which are more amenable to him, I shall be glad to co-operate at a later stage, and will not push the matter to a vote at this stage. If my right hon. Friend could give a sign that he recognises the strength of these arguments and will use the parliamentary draftsmen to employ better words than mine, I am happy to let my text stand as a suggestion of what should be done. However, I should be even happier if he is able to accept my words as they now stand. One is always proud of one's own authorship.
      Whichever way he deals with the matter today, I hope he will recognise that its effects go far outside the normal employee-employer relationship in idustry. The theatre and the cultural life of our country are part of our nation. There is something rather more spiritual about it than the normal jobs at which we all earn our living. I should not like to see this contribution to our cultural life weakened by any move made by the Government I support, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will see the matter in that light.
      [Miss HARVIE ANDERSON in the Chair]
      Mr. Hugh Jenkins: I find myself in agreement with much, if not all, the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir H. Nicholls) said. As the Committee will recall, I moved a similar Amendment yesterday and the right hon. Gentleman in reply said that he would consider this matter today. The difference between the two suggestions is as follows. My proposal yesterday would write into the Bill
      862
      certain situations in which anybody, whether a trade union, of actors or anybody else, would be allowed to operate a union shop. The proposal now before the Committee, as I understand it, places in the hands of the Secretary of State the power to make decisions as a result of which under certain circumstances a union might be allowed to operate a union shop. Am I right in that understanding of the proposals?
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: I am delighted that we agree on some part. But, as I understood them, the hon. Gentleman's Amendments would have wrecked the Bill. I accept that my right hon. Friend and his colleagues intend to get the principles behind the Bill, but I am trying to find a way for those who would be injured above all others to be exempted from unnecessary injury.
      Mr. Jenkins: Perhaps we should not spend too much time on this matter. I quarrel with the hon. Gentleman's view that my Amendments would have wrecked the Bill. They would have changed it in important details, but they would have had a similar effect to what I hope will be the consequences if this proposal is accepted.
      One aspect of the hon. Gentleman's proposal which has disturbed some of my hon. Friends, with whom I have naturally had considerable discussions on the subject, is that it places in the hands of the Minister the power to determine in which circumstances and which union shall be allowed to exercise this right. I believe it to be a reasonable and proper right, as I have made clear, that in certain conditions a union may operate obligatory trade union membership. I argued a philosophical case on that point yesterday. It would be wrong to pursue it again today. There is a good case, but it has already been made.
      On the practical side, unless something like the proposal which I put forward yesterday or the proposal which the hon. Member for Peterborough has so eloquently put forward today is accepted, or unless the right hon. Gentleman comes forward with a proposal between the two, a disaster will occur in some areas.
      The area which I know best is that of the performers' unions. However, it applies not only to actors; it applies to technicians, musicians—the whole area of

      863
      professional entertainment. Indeed, under the proposals in the Bill, the Seamen's Union might be caught. A strong case was eloquently put forward yesterday on behalf of the seamen.
      If the Minister chose to interpret the powers which he will be given in a liberal fashion, they could be interpreted beyond the narrow range of actors. On the other hand, if the Minister interpreted them narrowly, only the actors would be given the freedom to choose, as it were, their own colleagues.
      Is it right that the Minister should have that power? This is the doubt in the minds of my hon. Friends, and I confess that it is a doubt in my mind, too.
      Is it right that it should be the Minister's task, or would it be a task better lodged, if it has to be lodged at all in the C.I.R.? I believe that unions should have an absolute right to form a closed shop, or a union shop, without any Ministerial intervention or dictation.
      But if that case has, alas, been lost so far—we may yet rescue it on Report— the question is: what can we do now? The proposal put forward by the hon. Member for Peterborough, is, at it were, the minimal solution. This is the least which can be done to prevent total collapse.
      I hope that the Minister will say that he hopes to do more than what the hon. Member for Peterborough has proposed today and is prepared to move in the direction of the proposal which I put forward yesterday.
      I should like to comment on what the hon. Member for Peterborough said about the stability and lack of serious strike record among actors. At the moment, every contract, without exception, contains a clause which lays down that the performer shall be, directly or indirectly a member of the union. Because this clause is in every contract there has been stability in the profession.
      Equity has a vested interest in the maintenance of contractual obligations and is a strict disciplinarian trade union. Equity tells actors that they may not break contracts; it collects fines when they are imposed by managers on defaulting managers. It acts as the disciplinary organisation throughout the entertainment industry. If we take away from this
      864
      union the power to exercise 100 per cent, union membership we will destroy discipline in an area where, if discipline is destroyed, the whole structure will collapse.
      Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says about the strict discipline enforced by Equity. But is it not a corollary that, if he achieves 100 per cent, union obligation, there should be a right of appeal to an independent body—perhaps an industrial court—because if a disciplinary union takes away the card of one of its members it prevents that member plying his trade and earning his livelihood, as the musicians did in Bonsor's case. Where there is a union shop should there not be a right of appeal to an independent body? In a later part of the Bill there is a provision that, in cases of unfair dismissal by an employer, there shall be an appeal to the Industrial Court. Does it not therefore follow that, on dismissal by a union, which has more serious effects, there should be an equal appeal?
      Mr. Jenkins: I am sure that there will be no objection to such a proposal by the Council of Equity. However, I can recall no occasion on which a member's card has been removed without the employer being extremely thankful.
      The discipline which the union enforces is not of the character which I think worries the hon. and learned Gentleman. It is an open discipline which is exercised —I believe that most people who know the facts agree—not only in the interests of Equity, but in the general interests of the entertainment profession. I believe that the fact that managerial associations have written to the hon. Member for Peterborough asking for the maintenance of the Equity shop shows that I am not making a false statement, but that the people who run the entertainment business recognise the foundation on which not only actors rest, but upon which they rest.
      I said that I would not intervene at great length. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will pursue his Amendment if the right hon. Gentleman does not give him the assurance which he seeks. I hope, if the hon. Gentleman pursues his Amendment in the Lobbies, that my hon. Friends will support him. If the right

      865
      hon. Gentleman gives what we consider to be a reasonable assurance concerning the disaster which now threatens the union, for which I have worked so long, I hope that my hon. Friends, if they do not feel able to go into the Lobbies in support of the Amendment, will at least abstain. I therefore ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider carefully, as I am sure he will, everything which has been said and to give us an assurance that he is sufficiently flexible in his attitude to the problem to recognise that there are a number of exceptions where it is in the interests of the community as a whole that a union shop should be maintained.
      Dame Irene Ward: I am very glad indeed that my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) has moved this Amendment and has gone into the matter in such depth. What he said was of great interest to both sides of the Committee. I have no qualifications to add to what my hon. Friend said, but it is important that the support which his Amendment deserves should be expressed.
      I have always taken a deep interest in the cultural life of this country. It is fair to point out that the House of Commons very rarely debates what it can do to help those who are in the world of cultural activities, if I may put it that way. We rarely look at their problems. We rarely look at what they ought to have from the country, and I think that in a great Bill of this kind, whether we agree with it or not, it would be very unfortunate if we did not look at the problems of those who are engaged in Equity and other forms of cultural activity, in the way so admirably put forward by my hon. Friend.
      I have always followed the activities of Equity. I think that it has done a great deal for the people it represents, and I am confident that my right hon. Friend will be prepared to meet the case which has been put forward today. There may, as my hon. Friend said, be other words which would be more effective in carrying out what I feel sure is the desire of the Committee as a whole, and it is therefore fortunate that we are to have two extra days on Report, because that will provide an opportunity for issues of this kind to be gone into in depth by my right hon. Friend.
      866
      I am sure that my right hon. Friend will be willing to look at all the cases that are put forward. He has great flexibility of approach, and I am therefore confident, whether or not he is able to accept the words suggested by my hon. Friend—and this is a matter of his decision—that he will be in favour of the case that has been put forward. I have great pleasure in supporting what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough, and I look forward to an active response from my right hon. Friend.
      Mr. John Pardoe: I want for a few moments to direct the attention of the Committee to Amendment No. 392 which is being discussed with the Amendment moved by the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls). Our Amendment widens the argument slightly, and I shall not deal with the arguments which have been put specifically on the Equity case. It is appropriate that there should be considerable interest in Equity in the House, because many hon. Gentlemen are failed actors, and many hon. Ladies are failed actresses. My failed is that I am a failed opera singer, but I have the same interest.
      I support the case which has been made for Equity. Amendment No. 392 in the names of my hon. Friends and myself, which I admit refers to Clause 7, is on the same principle as, and is coupled with, Amendment No. 446, widens the discussion slightly, and I should therefore like to put different points to the right hon. Gentleman for him to consider.
      What I really want the right hon. Gentleman to be able to do is to exercise his discretion, not for Equity alone, but wherever it may be necessary for him to do so in the future. What we seek to do by our Amendment is to allow the Secretary of State to provide for the exemption of certain agreements from the provisions of Clause 7 which bans the pre-entry closed shop, and then to bring it to Parliament for affirmative Resolution, because then it would be debatable by us in each and every case.
      We have gone slightly further than the hon. Gentleman has, and I hope that he will agree with these two additional points. If one is going to exempt certain agreements from the general debarment

      867
      of the no pre-entry closed shop, one has to write in large responsibilities within the pre-entry closed shop, and what we seek to do is to say that such agreements as are exempted will be enforceable, and they will not therefore be let out by the application of Clauses 32 and 33. I hope the hon. Gentleman will agree that that would be right, because that would impose greater responsibilities on the parties within the closed shop.
      The second general point is contained in the last part of the Amendment, where we say and recognise that there may be abuses. Obviously there are likely to be abuses within a pre-entry closed shop, and the point has been made that there are difficulties of discipline within a pre-entry closed shop. Where those abuses exist, there must be some policing system, and what we would like the Secretary of State to be able to do is to refer, as a general matter, any such agreement to the Monopolies Commission so that it can continually look into the conditions of the pre-entry closed shop.
      I hope that the hon. Member for Peterborough will not think that those matters are in any way against the spirit of his Amendment. I think that they would improve it slightly in the case of Equity. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us that the Government are prepared to look carefully at the points which have been made, and that they are prepared to consider making provision in the Bill for a general dispensation in cases where the Secretary of State considers it necessary, subject, of course, to an affirmative Resolution of Parliament. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take up those points.
      Mr. Timothy Raison: As I read the Amendment, it seems to give no indication of the kind of agreement to which this exemption would apply. Surely it would be an unsatisfactory piece of legislation if the hon. Gentleman did not put in any guidelines about the areas in which this would operate?
      Mr. Pardoe: I see no reason why we should lay that down, because different circumstances will arise from time to time. We have said that the Secretary of State should be called upon to use
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      his judgment about whether it is right and proper that there should be a pre-entry closed shop, and then Parliament should be called upon to use its judgment. Before Parliament has to discuss the matter the Monopolies Commission will have been asked to report, and its report will be before Parliament before the debate takes place. That is all set out in the Amendment.
      Those are sufficient safeguards, and therefore I do not think that there is any need beyond and above the Amendment to lay down the conditions in which the Secretary of State should begin that process by exercising his judgment.
      Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: I support the Amendment so ably moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) and so attractively supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Tyne-mouth (Dame Irene Ward). I support the spirit of the Amendment, as I do the manner in which my hon. Friend moved it, but I recognise the difficulties in the way in which the Amendment is laid and drafted.
      Perhaps I might tell the Committee why I do not agree with the Amendment in the names of the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) and his hon. Friends. I do not agree with it because I think that it is far too wide. It does not lay down the necessary criteria.
      The problem really arises—and I shall turn to another industry in a moment— is where one is concerned predominantly with a trade union which is not engaged in trade, is not engaged in manufacturing industry, but is in truth and in fact really a profession. It is in this class of case that the difficulty arises, and this was shown by my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth when she referred to the cultural activity of this country, to which we pay all too little regard.
      What are we really trying to do for Equity? We are really trying to ensure that it is able to maintain standards— the sort of standards which the Law Society and the Bar Council insist upon for the profession, the sort of standards which doctors and dentists have to enjoy.
      6.0 p.m.
      Yet, for an actor or an actress, one cannot lay down in every case that they

      869
      must pass an examination. R.A.D.A. and an apprenticeship with a repertory company might be regarded by industrial hon. Members as a good qualification, as it is, but others enter films in a more glamorous way, by being picked up by talent scouts, and can become film stars after one or two films, without the donkey work of the repertory theatre. In the variety part of the industry, the natural talents of a Cockney wit may make him one of our greatest comedians.
      These people do not pass examinations, but they are professional people and that is where the key lies for the Minister to find an exemption. In that case, people who join some professional association should pay due regard to the standards laid down and the disciplines which only those in the professions fully understand.
      Another example is that of the teachers. I was absolutely white with rage when they went on strike and I wondered why I was so angry. I suddenly realised that, as a barrister, I could not possibly go on strike. "Judges do not strike", I muttered to myself, "and if judges do not strike, why should teachers? "It took me a long time to forgive them at all—
      Mr. John Fraser: Perhaps it is because they are poorly paid.
      Mr. Rees-Davies: No, there are many highly paid professors in this country. It is not just a question of the menial payment for which we work in life. One also pursues an occupation which is one's pleasure. One is not paid to be in this House—at least I am not, by the time that I have paid all the outgoings—but that does not mean that we do not enjoy it. Are the teachers a profession or a trade? Their attitudes tend to show today more of the trade outlook than the truly professional sense of understanding.
      Another group of people for whom I should like to speak, and without whom Equity would not exist, are the Writers' Guild of Great Britain, with some 700 full members and another 700 associate members, who provide the scripts for Plays, television plays and almost all the productions in this country. They are closely concerned, in the same way as equity. They are, in truth and in fact, a body of authors, professional men and women, who joined the Guild to maintain standards and to ensure fair fees in rela-
      870
      tion to agreements entered into on their behalf, but also to protect their overseas copyright in America, Commonwealth countries and elsewhere.
      The Guild's agreements are of considerable importance and are dealt with in the provisions for agency shop agreements in Clause 6. They have agreements with the F.P.A., the I.T.C. and the I.T.V., the main bodies regulating the transmissions of the employing producers. They have no similar agreement with the B.B.C. These agreements have taken long effort and time to secure and they apply to all representatives of the Guild.
      It is a condition that everyone must belong to the Guild, and the main purpose is to uphold the standards upon which the Guild's bargaining power depends. An unsatisfactory producer or director can be listed and members told not to offer their services, either in this country or abroad, to such a person. This eliminates those unsatisfactory practices, as those producers cannot obtain work.
      If a few people withdrew from a large union like the Transport and General Workers' Union, it would have no effect, but if only a couple of scriptwriters withdrew from the Guild and dealt with unsatisfactory producers, the Guilds' bargaining power would be broken. A script may be sold for one film or a series such as "The Adventurers". Without full control, the Guild could not accomplish its professional purpose.
      The Amendment offers one way of dealing with this—by giving special exemption in such a way as to limit it to professional activities. Another way is to recognise that one of the Bill's purposes is to prevent unions or individuals threatening to induce a breach of contract by an employer, and to turn that around altogether. It would do no harm to the Bill if we remedied the situation with an addition to the Clause which entitled someone to withdraw from a union— which is quite right—but went on to say that it would be an unfair industrial practice for any employer, during a dispute with a union, to induce a member of the union to leave it so that the employer might employ him with a view to prolonging or ending the dispute.
      That is to say, one answer is to make it equally wrong for an employer to seduce a worker from his obligations to

      871
      his union, purely because he wanted to employ him in breach of his own arrangements with the union. There may be other answers, but I hope that we shall be able to find a way to ensure that what was intended to achieve desirable ends for a union like the Writers' Guild, which has never been on strike or withdrawn its labour or entered into any agreements which have not been to the benefit of the public as well as of their own ends, is given some accommodation within what I believe to be a great Measure. Their position, although different from, is largely analogous to, the position of Equity. There may be others, but they are mainly to be found among those who are aiming to uphold certain standards.
      Those in the Ministry and the Minister's advisers have given many months, indeed years, anxious thought to this problem. I ask them to continue their imaginative thinking. Only recently did the Guild write to the Ministry, and I sent certain further details only yesterday. I therefore do not expect any concluded opinion on the part of either my right hon. Friend or the Committee because a detailed case was put forward only 24 hours ago.
      I wish to make it clear that, having put forward that case, that is not the end of the matter for either my colleagues or myself. Perhaps in the long run the Minister will conclude that we should deal with this problem by taking certain parts out of being a union matter and treating it as a professional one, but I am not satisfied that that would be right. The protection which applies to trade unions and the rights and obligations which unions are entitled to receive are probably appropriate to this matter.
      I endorse what has been said by hon. Members about the need to try to find a solution to the major problem facing Equity, which is the need to uphold standards, prevent a watering down of those standards and ensure the proper entry of people into the theatre, rather than to have people barging in, as it were, without any right or know-how. Equally, I hope that we can maintain an increasing standard among authors through the right type of scripts, because that will ensure a high standard of culture in Britain.
      Mr. Gower: My hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) made a strong case in pointing out, as the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) did yesterday, that it is desirable that there should be special provision in this sphere of the theatre. However, despite the ingenuity of my hon. Friend and the hard work that has obviously gone into the drafting of this group of Amendments, I do not believe that these proposals would be limited to the theatre or to the Guild of Writers.
      I have a suspicion that, because of the wording of my hon. Friend's proposal, it could be extended to many occupations and across a wide field of industry, for its references to the level of employment at various times, casual employment and remuneration could apply to seaside catering and similar occupations. I appreciate that that is not the intention, but my right hon. Friend will obviously have to consider the matter in its wider context.
      Having said that, I hope that my right hon. Friend will, if he takes the view I have expressed, give this matter further consideration between now and a later stage. It is desirable, from what we have been told, that special provision should be made in the narrow sphere of the theatre and associated occupations, but it would be wrong for a proposal of this kind to be allowed to extend as far as I believe it would extend.
      6.15 p.m.
      The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Carr): This is a difficult matter and one which will need further consideration. I wish, at the outset, to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) who, as the Committee knows, speaks from a long interest in and great knowledge of the acting profession and the entertainment industry, as does the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins). The Committee and the profession will be grateful to my hon. Friend for the careful thought he has given to this issue and the way in which he has attempted to find a solution.
      I had to inform the hon. Member for Putney rather hurriedly last night that I definitely could not accept the Amendments which he had tabled. I felt that, as criteria, they would be too variable

      873
      and unstable. My hon. Friend has come somewhat nearer to the right approach.
      I accept that a career in the acting profession and the entertainment industry is one of very high risk. It is also one of low wage levels, except for the few. I accept that entry into the profession cannot be regulated by means of formal qualifications. Undoubtedly there are aspects of the employment situation in this industry, and particularly in the acting and associated authorship profession, which my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) mentioned, which separate them from most other employments and occupations.
      We are speaking about acting and entertainment as well as professions and activities closely associated with those spheres of activity. By way of example, there may be cases—I grant that they may be rare—which, though unique, show that it would not be right for the Committee to legislate specifically for Equity or some particular association like it; we must, therefore, if we are to find an escape route, make it of general application, and this makes the problem even more difficult.
      I return to what I call broadly the "Equity problem." It is clear that Equity is not dependent on maintaining a pre-entry closed shop. However, there is the question of maintaining casting and other agreements in the theatrical sphere and the fact that these depend in practice on Equity's power to enforce jointly agreed rules on both management and players by virtue of the post-entry closed shop.
      For most similar situations, we believe that trade unions will be able to rely satisfactorily on our agency shop provisions. Some of the Amendments which we intend to move to the present agency shop provisions and which, in particular, will enable a union or unions to make an agency shop agreement with a multiplicity of employers—for example, in this case, with West End managers or a repertory theatre organisation—will, we believe, enable Equity to make a reasonably effective agency shop.
      I admit that we are not satisfied that, even so amended, that sort of agreement would be adequate in this sphere or in spheres where employment is typically casual, of very short duration, where
      874
      employers are apt to come and go quickly, where performers are rarely together in the same group for two successive productions and where even in good times, about one half of the total numbers in the profession are probably out of work, or at least between engagements, at any one time.
      Mr. Hugh Jenkins: As to why the agency shop would be difficult to operate in this sphere, the right hon. Gentleman must add the vast numbers of people who are continuously and mistakenly trying to get into this employment.
      Mr. Carr: Yes, but that again is one of the other problems. It is one of the problems which arise out of the appeal of the profession, the nature of it, and the fact that it is not one where entry can be regulated by any formal qualification. Although formal training plays a major part, and probably an increasing part, it is above all a profession in which sheer talent can at times rise to the top, even without training. It seems that there is a case, if we can find it, for making some concession. All I can say to my hon. Friends and hon. Members opposite is that we shall be carefully and sympathetically considering this matter.
      I cannot accept my hon. Friend's Amendment as it stands, first, because we cannot consider Equity on its own. I know that the Amendment is not limited to Equity alone, but before we can decide what we can do, if anything, we must trawl very thoroughly to try to get a more comprehensive view than we have at present of all the other possible candidates for special treatment. We shall not be exhaustive in that, but we must have a careful look.
      While we would wish to find some exemption here to meet this and other genuine special cases, we are determined not to provide a door which is so easy to open that in practice we defeat a major principle of the Bill, namely, the right to belong to a union or not to belong to a union and all that goes with that. We must survey the subject more carefully than we have yet been able to do in the light of representations put before us.
      I am not attracted to the idea that the Secretary of State should have the responsibility of defining definitions. This sort of decision should not be a political

      875
      decision taken by Ministers, though they may be answerable to the House. This is a principle which we are maintaining in other parts of the Bill. Sometimes we have known, for example, in monopoly references that it is not easy to make Ministers answerable in practice when one thing is dealt with in one way and another in a different way. We should seek to find some other body, such as the National Industrial Relations Court, which could determine by criteria which are exceptional cases and which are not. That is another reason why I cannot accept the Amendment as it stands at present. Nevertheless, I assure my hon. Friend that I will consider this matter, because we believe that there is a case here which we should like to relieve as much as possible. I cannot make a categorical promise about this. But I will consider it in the spirit of making a genuine attempt to bring forward on Report an Amendment which I believe will be acceptable.
      Mr. Rees-Davies: Would that also include the Writers' Guild and their problems, which are rather analogous to those of Equity?
      Mr. Carr: I thought that I had made it clear that we could not consider somethink which applied to Equity only. It must be standards by which other people can come and be judged. The cases mentioned by my hon. Friend would have to come and be judged from those standards.
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: While not wishing to reject the spirit of my right hon. Friend's reply, I should have liked him to be a little more specific. I take it that there will be something on the Order Paper on Report stage. I know him well enough and understand his methods to know that when he uses words such as those he has used, something will flow from them. But if it is the case that he finds it impossible to find words—he has given an explanation where he may find that difficult—I should like another opportunity of finding the words myself. However, I should prefer him to do that. The attendance of the Committee in no way reflects the overwhelming interest in this matter. I have the authority of the hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg) and other hon. Mem-
      876
      bers, to let the right hon. Gentleman know that they support entirely the arguments put forward and suggestions made I am sorry that hon. Gentlemen opposite are suggesting that at this stage we should push the matter to a vote. Perhaps the difference is that they are after a bit of propaganda but I am after results in a worth-while manner. I hope that my right hon. Friend can go to the Dispatch Box for one more second to say that we can expect some words of his at the Report stage in the general direction of those which I have used.
      Mr. James Dempsey: The right hon. Gentleman has made it clear that he will have no exception to the principle already decided. The Amendment asks for such an exception. There is an obvious bridge which cannot be crossed. Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that in the circumstances the matter should be put to a Division?
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: I am not as pessimistic as the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey). He must be optimistic if he has a good case. We have a very good case and we are entitled to be optimistic.
      Mr. Carr: There is a saying that exceptions prove the rule. But they must be real exceptions and they cannot be limited to one particular case. I cannot promise my hon. Friend categorically to put something down on the Order Paper at Report Stage, because I could not do so unless I were satisfied that it did the job. I can promise him only that I will look further into the matter with the intention of so doing. But obviously I cannot fulfil that intention unless I can honestly comment to the Committee that it is a sound Amendment. I hope that we shall find something appropriate, and I shall seek hard to find it, but I cannot promise that I will find it until I have found it.
      Mr. Pardoe: The- right hon. Gentleman has not given a satisfactory answer because he has not committed himself to what will be on the Order Paper for the further proceedings. Indeed, he has not replied in any way to the points which I made. I should have thought that the Amendment was a way out tor him. It widened the matter. It may have widened it too much for some hon. Gentlemen opposite.

      877
      I accept, as does the right hon. Gentleman, the principle that a man may be allowed to opt out of union membership. I support him entirely on that principle. But surely the right hon. Gentleman is not denying that in some cases the closed shop is a good and efficient arrangement. There ought to be a system written into the Bill whereby the right hon. Gentleman can exercise discretion.
      I disagree totally with the right hon. Gentleman's view that it should not be left to the Secretary of State or Parliament to discuss this. The idea of setting up an ad hoc committee to take over the democratic rights and responsibilities of this House has been in existence for far too long. This should be a political decision and not an economic or a legal decision. How can any kind of court decide whether a specific case should be exempted? It is for the Secretary of State, or future Secretaries of State, and politicians to make the initial judgment and for Parliament to decide, through an affirmative Resolution, as it does on the information put before it by the Monopolies Commission. I put all these proposals to the right hon. Gentleman, but he did not reply.
      6.30 p.m.
      Mr. Eric S. Heffer: The Opposition are totally opposed to the whole idea that the closed shop, under any circumstances, should not be allowable. But we recognise that there is a real problem for certain unions in that, if the closed shop principle is not allowable, not only will those unions be crippled, as all unions will be generally, but they will be put out of existence.
      It is not only Equity which is in that situation but a number of other unions. We heard yesterday an excellent speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) about the National Union of Seamen. Whilst making it absolutely clear that we are totally opposed to the Government's policy, we stress that it is a matter of life or death for some unions. It may be that the union membership in a factory, which is not in casual employment in the sense of Equity, the N.U.S.—or those employed in the construction industry—is in a somewhat different situation, but the principle which the Government are pursuing is totally wrong.
      878
      The right hon. Gentleman agrees that this is a difficult problem. However, it is of the Government's own making. They have dug the trench into which they are sinking because of the policy that they have pursued.
      The right hon. Gentleman is clearly fascinated by legal frameworks. He suggests that he should not accept responsibility for any exemptions and that they should be left to a court of law, the proposed National Industrial Relations Court. How absurd can we get? How can the law enter industrial relations? It is clear that in on circumstances can we accept that situation and, in view of the fact that it does not look as though there will be a vote—
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: Why not?
      Mr. Heffer: I do not know. It is a matter for the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls). But when the Bill comes back on Report, we shall look carefully at the situation, and we shall want to know precisely what is being done to overcome this problem for the unions concerned.
      In any event, it would be far better if the right hon. Gentleman accepted the view of the Opposition that there is no need for this type of provision. It would be much better if he decided, on the basis of the arguments which have been presented in the past two days, to withdraw his opposition to the closed shop, pre-entry or otherwise, and to allow the situation to continue without interference.
      That is the view of the Opposition. I will not reply to many of the comments which have been made in this debate. The attitude of some hon. Gentlemen opposite to trade unions are such that it is almost impossible for some of us to understand. I think that we come back to the point made in that brilliant speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, All Saints (Mr. Walden) yesterday that, in a sense, it is like the deaf talking to the deaf. One side does not seem to understand the other. It is about time that hon. Gentlemen opposite understood that, on matters like 100 per cent. trade unionism and the right of trade unions to have collective agreements based upon the closed shop, we on this side have deep feelings.
      Mr. Rees-Davies: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, will he answer one question?
      Mr. Heffer: I have sat down.
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: I was so impressed with the sincerity of my right hon. Friend and the clear impression that he gave that he will look into this matter with the genuine idea of finding an answer that I propose to ask to withdraw the Amendment. However, before I do that, perhaps I might give some advice to hon. Gentlemen opposite, especially to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer). They claim to be great negotiators. Their whole argument is that they understand these matters since they have spent their lives negotiating and have won greatly improved conditions for their members. They understand the tactics. They know how to use the climate. They excel in these matters. That is their case. Let us hear a few examples of it. As a businessman, I have some experience of negotiators. Anyone who knows how to negotiate recognises that there are occasions when it is good to get one foot in the door—
      Mrs. Castle: We are under a guillotine.
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: The right hon. Lady will not shut me up. She has a nasty temper and a silly approach to these matters. She does not deserve the support of her hon. Friends. She is a parliamentary wash-out, as she has proved. I have no time for the right hon. Lady.
      Hon. Gentlemen opposite should use their skill as negotiators and remember that occasionally it is good to get one foot in the door. Let us get this Equity foot in the door. From that, we may be able to get in the other one.
      I have great faith that something will come of this Amendment and that my right hon. Friend intends to consider the matter with the genuine aim of finding an answer. In view of that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      The Deputy Chairman: The next Amendment selected is No. 500, in page 4, line 39, leave out subsection 4.
      Mr. Heffer: Under protest, in view of the fact that we are operating under a guillotine, I do not intend to move that Amendment.
      Amendment proposed, No. 502, in page 4, line 44, at end insert:
      (4A) Paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to a person employed as a seaman on a seagoing British ship having a gross registered tonnage of 80 tons or more, including a person ordinarily employed as a seaman who is employed on, or, on about such a ship in port by the owner or charterer of the ship to do work of a kind ordinarily done by a seaman on such a ship while it is in port.—[Mr. Heffer.]
      Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
      The Committee proceeded to a Division and The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN having directed that the doors be locked—
      Mr. Russell Kerr(seated and covered): On a point of order, Miss Harvie Anderson. A number of hon. Members, including myself, were prevented by the presence of Conservative Members, I am sure quite unintentionally, from reaching the door before it was closed on your instruction. Therefore, may I ask that the Division be called again in order that we may have a proper vote, properly recorded?
      The Deputy Chairman (Miss Harvie Anderson): Order. The hon. Gentleman will know that the full time was given for entry to the Lobbies and that the Division is therefore in order.
      Mr. Kerr: With great respect, Miss Harvie Anderson, I think that you possibly missed the substance of my complaint, which was that I would have been in good time before the closing of the door but for the physical presence of Conservative Members preventing a number of us from entering the Lobby.
      The Deputy Chairman: It was clear that there were a number of Members behind the Bar likely to vote in each Lobby, and the Chair would judge that each had equal chances of getting through the door in adequate time.
      Mr. Joseph Ashton(seated and covered): Further to that point of order. The reason why it was not possible to get into the Ayes Lobby was that the Conservative Whip had his

      881
      arm across the door stopping people coming round the door. The consequent congestion behind the door prevented hon. Members going through it, because there was no exit where Members nod their heads.
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. The Chair had the door in question in view and did not see exactly that which was depicted by the hon. Gentleman.
      Mr. James Callaghan(seated and covered): There is a very serious point here that I should like to put to you, Miss Harvie Anderson. The Government Whip was trying to ease congestion. He put his arm across the exit door so as not to allow anybody else into a passage that was clearly congested. But the effect was to stop people getting in through the door. With respect to you, I do not think that you could have seen what was happening outside. I do not complain about the Whip's action, because it was intended to be helpful, but it created pressure inside the door. I put it to you very seriously that it would be fair to conduct the vote again.
      Sir Gerald Nabarro: Not on your life.
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, the leisurely procession that the Chair observed gave the clear impression to the Chair that there was no undue haste towards the doors which were being locked, and that there was no such pressure on the door to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred.
      6.45 p.m.
      Mr. Callaghan: May I put to you, Miss Harvie Anderson, with respect, that in the 26 years I have been here I have never known a Government Whip attempt to restrain Members who have passed the Clerk and recorded their names from moving out of the Lobby. I know that he did it in good faith, but the consequence was that, although it may be your impression that it was a leisurely procession, as I stumbled up there, that was not my impression. Whatever the impression, pressure was created in there that pre-vented Members from moving into the Lobby, and it is that which, with respect, I believe requires you to reconsider whether the vote should be taken again.
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. I think that the right hon. Gentleman has re-emphasised what I have already made plain, that there was no pressure on the door in question at the time concerned, and I think that he would agree that it happened to be a door in full view of the Chair and the Table. [Interruption.] Order. I inform the hon. Members for Cannock (Mr. Cormack) and Lancaster (Mrs. Kellett), who are seeking to raise points of order, that they are not suitably covered.
      Mr. Russell Kerr(seated and covered): With great respect, Miss Harvie Anderson, may I ask that you send for Mr. Speaker? This is not an attempt to make party capital, but I think that there is a genuine misapprehension as to what happened. Perhaps we should have someone to whom we can appeal to decide where the best interests of the Committee lie.
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. Much as the Chair might wish to send for Mr. Speaker, and share the hon. Gentleman's views, it would not be in order to do so.
      Mr. Charles Pannell(seated and covered): I should be glad if, through the Clerk, you would consult the precedents on this, Miss Harvie Anderson. I have a clear recollection that in the 1950-51 Parliament, at the time when we were being harried to death, the then Member for Aberdeen-shire, East complained that he was disadvantaged and pushed against his will through the wrong Lobby. The Speaker was sent for, and his clear Ruling was that if any one Member—one Member— were disadvantaged and there was a great dispute of evidence, the Division must be called again. I think that this is a matter of such importance that, with very great respect, I suggest that you send for Mr. Speaker.
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman should take the view that it would be appropriate to do so. The Chair is in the Service of the Committee in these matters, and if the Committee seeks to have another Division, with adequate evidence that there was any form of obstruction, the Chair will so concede. All that the Chair has said so far, in response to what the Committee has put

      883
      before it, is that evidence of no such obstruction has been suggested adequately to date.
      Mr. Edward Short(seated and covered): Since you require some evidence, Miss Harvie Anderson, are you aware that I was injured trying to get through the door? I now have a bleeding arm, as I can show you. Is that not sufficient?
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman should have apparently suffered in that way. I think that he will agree that he is a little confused. I happened to observe him personally, and my observation sug-
      gested that he was trying to go through another door.
      Mrs. Elaine Kellett(seated and covered): I was actually standing alongside the ex-Prime Minister when the Labour file was going very slowly, and he said, "Pass the word along to move faster".
      Hon. Members: That is right.
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. I do not think that there is any useful purpose to be served in continuing this discussion. In view of the representations made, I am perfectly prepared to call the Division again, which I now do.
      The Committee divided,: Ayes 266, Noes 295.

      Division No. 85.

      AYES

      [6.54 p.m.

      Abse, Leo

      Doig, Peter

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Albu, Austen

      Dormand, J. D.

      Hunter, Adam

      Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

      Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

      lrvine, Rt. Hn. SirArthur (Edge Hill)

      Alten, Scholefield

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Janner, Greville

      Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

      Driberg, Tom

      Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Ashley, Jack

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras, S.)

      Ashton, Joe

      Dunn, James A.

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Atkinson, Norman

      Dunnett, Jack

      Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Eadie, Alex

      John, Brynmor

      Barnes, Michael

      Edelman, Maurice

      Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

      Barnett, Joel

      Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

      Johnson, James (K'ston-on-HuH, W.)

      Beaney, Alan

      Edwards, William (Merioneth)

      Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

      Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

      Ellis, Tom

      Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

      Bennett, James (Glasgow, Brigeton)

      English Michael

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Bidwelf, Sydney

      Evans, Fred

      Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Fernyhough, E.

      Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

      Boardman, H. (Leigh)

      Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Booth, Albert

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      Kelley, Richard

      Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Kerr, Russell

      Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

      Foley, Maurice

      Kinnock, Neil

      Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

      Foot, Michael

      Lamble, David

      Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

      Ford, Ben

      Lamond, James

      Buchan, Norman

      Forrester, John

      Latham, Arthur

      Buchanan, Richard (G'gow Springburn)

      Fraser, John (Norwood)

      Lawson, George

      Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

      Freeson, Reginald

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

      Galpern, Sir Myer

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

      Garrett, W. E.

      Leonard, Dick

      Cant, R. B.

      Gilbert, Dr. John

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Carmichael, Neil

      Ginsburg, David

      Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

      Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

      Golding, John

      Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

      Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

      Gorden Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

      Gourlay, Harry

      Lipton, Marcus

      Clark, David (Colne Valley)

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Lomas, Kenneth

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

      Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

      Loughlin, charles

      Cohen, Stanley

      Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

      Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

      Coleman Donald

      Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

      Concannon, J. D.

      Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

      Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

      Conlan, Bernard

      Hamilton, James (Bothwelf)

      McBride, Neil

      Corbet Mrs. Freda

      Hamling, William

      McCartney, Hugh

      Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

      Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

      McElhone, Frank

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Hardy, Peter

      McGuire, Michael

      Cronin John

      Harper, Joseph

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Mackie, John

      Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

      Hart. Rt. Hn. Judith

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Dalyell, Tam

      Hattersley Roy

      Maclennan, Robert

      Darling, Rt. Hn. George

      Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

      Davidson, Arthur

      Heffer, Eric S.

      McNamara, J. Kevin

      Davies, Denzil (Llaneffi)

      Hilton, W. S.

      MacPherson, Macolm

      Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

      Horam, John

      Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Mallalieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfiels, E.)

      Davies, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

      Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

      Marks, Kenneth

      Deakins, Eric

      Huckfield, Leslie

      Marquand, David

      de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

      Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

      Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Delargy, H. J.

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

      Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

      Meacher, Michael

      Dempsey, James

      Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Prescott, John

      Strang, Gavin

      Mendelson, John

      Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

      Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

      Mikardo, Ian

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

      Millan, Bruce

      Probert, Arthur

      Swain, Thomas

      Miller, Dr. M. S.

      Rankin, John

      Taverne, Dick

      Milne, Edward (Blyth)

      Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

      Thomas, Rt. Hn.George (Cardiff, W.)

      Molloy, William

      Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

      Rhodes, Geoffrey

      Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Richard, Ivor

      Tinn, James

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Tomney, Frank

      Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

      Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy(Caernarvon)

      Tomey, Tom

      Moyle, Roland

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Tuck, Raphael

      Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Roderick, CaerwynE. (Br'c'n & Radnor)

      Urwin, T. W.

      Murray, Ronald King

      Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Varley, Eric G.

      Ogden, Eric

      Roper, John

      Wainwright, Edwin

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Rose, Paul B.

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      O'Malley, Brian

      Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

      Wallace, George

      Oram, Bert

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

      Watkins, David

      Orbach, Maurice

      Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

      Weitzman, David

      Orme, Stanley

      Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

      Wellbeloved, James

      Oswald, Thomas

      Short, Mrs. Renee (W'hampton, N. E.)

      Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

      Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

      White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

      Padley, Walter

      Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

      Whitehad, Phillip

      Paget, R. T.

      Sillars, James

      Whitlock, William

      Palmer, Arthur

      Silverman, Julius

      Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

      Skinner, Dennis

      Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

      Pardoe, John

      Small, William

      Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

      Parker, John (Dagenham)

      Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Spearing, Nigel

      Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton))

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

      Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

      Stallard, A. W.

      Pendry, Tom

      Steel, David

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Pentland, Norman

      Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

      Mr. Alan Fitch and

      Perry, Ernest G.

      Stoddart, David (Swindon)

      Mr. Ernest Armstrong.

      Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

      Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

      NOES

      Adley, Robert

      Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

      Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

      Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

      Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

      Clegg, Walter

      Glyn, Dr. Alan

      Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

      Cockeram, Eric

      Goodhart, Philip

      Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

      Cooke, Robert

      Goodhew, Victor

      As tor, John

      Cooper, A. E.

      Gorst, John

      Atkins, Humphrey

      Cordle, John

      Gower, Raymond

      Awdry, Daniel

      Cormack, Patrick

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

      Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

      Costain, A. P.

      Gray, Hamish

      Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

      Critchley, Jullan

      Green, Alan

      Balniel, Lord

      Crouch, David

      Grieve, Percy

      Batsford, Brian

      Crowder, F. P.

      Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

      Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

      Curran, Charles

      Grylls, Michael

      Bell, Ronald

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Gummer, Selwyn

      Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

      Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

      Gurden, Harold

      Benyon, W.

      d-Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

      Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

      Berry, Hn. Anthony

      d-Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

      Hall, John (Wycombe)

      Biffen, John

      Dean, Paul

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Digby, Simon Wingfield

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Blaker, Peter

      Dixon, Piers

      Hannam, John (Exeter)

      Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

      Dodds-Parker, Douglas

      Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

      Body, Richard

      Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

      Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Boscawen, Robert

      Drayson, G. B.

      Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

      Bossom, Sir Clive

      du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Bowden, Andrew

      Dykes, Hugh

      Hastings, Stephen

      Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

      Eden, Sir John

      Havers, Michael

      Braine, Bernard

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Hawkins, Paul

      Bray, Ronald

      Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Brews, John

      Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

      Heseltine, Michael

      Brinton, Sir Tatton

      Emery, Peter

      Hicks, Robert

      Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

      Eyre, Reginald

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Brown Sir Edward (Bath)

      Farr, John

      Hiley, Joseph

      Bruce-Gardyne, J.

      Fell, Anthony

      Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

      Bryan, Paul

      Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

      Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

      Fidler, Michael

      Holland, Philip

      Buck, Antony

      Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

      Holt, Miss Mary

      Burden, F. A.

      Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

      Hordern, Peter

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Hornby, Richard

      Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray & Nairn)

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

      Carlisle, Mark

      Foster, Sir John

      Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

      Carr Rt. Hn. Robert

      Fowler, Norman

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Channon, Paul

      Fox, Marcus

      Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

      Chapman, Sydney

      Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

      Hunt, John

      Chichester-Clark, R.

      Fry, Peter

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Churchill, W. S.

      Gardner, Edward

      Inemonger, T. L.

      Churchill, W. S.

      Gibson-Watt, David

      James, David

      886

      887

      Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

      Money, Emte

      Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington

      Jessel, Toby

      Monks, Mrs. Connie

      Soref, Harold

      Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

      Monro, Hector

      Speed, Keith

      Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Spence, John

      Jopling, Michael

      More, Jasper

      Sproat, lain

      Joseph, St. Hn. Sir Keith

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

      Stainton, Keith

      Keliett, Mrs. Elaine

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Mudd, David

      Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

      Kilfedder, James

      Murton, Oscar

      Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

      Kimball, Marcus

      Nabarro, Sir Gerald

      Stokes, John

      King, Eveyin (Dorset, S.)

      Neave, Airey

      Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Nicholls, Sir Harmar

      Sutcliffe, John

      Kinsey, J. R.

      Normanton, Tom

      Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

      Kirk, Peter

      Nott, John

      Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

      Kitson, Timothy

      Onslow, Cranley

      Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

      Knight, Mrs. Jill

      Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

      Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)

      Knox, David

      Osborn, John

      Tebbit, Norman

      Lambton, Antony

      Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

      Temple, John M.

      Lane, David

      Page, Graham (Crosby)

      Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

      Langford-Hoft, Sir John

      Page, John (Harrow, W.)

      Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

      Legge-Bourtoe, Sir Harry

      Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Peel, John

      Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Percival, Ian

      Tilney, John

      Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

      Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

      Trafford, Dr. Anthony

      Longden, Gilbert

      Pike, Miss Mervyn

      Trew, Peter

      Loveridge, John

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      McAdden, Sir Stephen

      Pounder, Rafton

      Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

      MacArthur, Ian

      Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

      Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

      McCrindle, R. A.

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Waddington, David

      McLaren, Martin

      Proudfoot, Wilfred

      Walder David (Clitheroe)

      Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

      Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

      Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

      McMaster, Stanley

      Quennell, Miss J. M.

      Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Dedrek

      Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

      Raison, Timothy

      Wall, Patrick

      McNair-Wilson, Michael

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

      Walters, Dennis

      McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

      Redmond, Robert

      Ward, Dame Irene

      Maddan, Martin

      Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

      Warren, Kenneth

      Madel, David

      Rees, Peter (Dover)

      Weatherill Bernard

      Maginnis, John E.

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

      Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

      White, Roger (Gravesend)

      Marten, Neil

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

      Mather, Carol

      Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

      Wiggin Jerry

      Maude, Angus

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Wilkinson John

      Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

      Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

      Mawby, Ray

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Rost, Peter

      Woodnutt Mark

      Mills, Peter (Torrington)

      Russell, Sir Ronald

      Worslev Marcus

      Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

      Younger Hn. George

      Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)

      Shelton, William (Clapham)

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Simeons, Charles

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Moate, Roger

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Mr. Tim Fortescue and

      Molyneaux, James

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Mr. Hugh Rossi.

      7.0 p.m.
      The Deputy Chairman: The next Amendment is No. 422, in page 5, line 8, at end insert 'without loss of earnings' standing in the name of the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle). Mr. Heffer.
      Mr. Heffer: In view of the circumstances that we are in because of the guillotine, I wish to say, under protest "not moved".
      Amendment No. 464 made: In page 5, line 10, leave out 'of employment' and insert 'with his employer'.—[The Solicitor-General]
      The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, Amendment No. 497, in page 5, line 11, at end add:
      (6) In subsections (1), (2) and (5) of this section any reference to a trade union shall
      888
      be construed as including a reference to an organisation of workers which is for the time being entered in the provisional register.
      This is not an Amendment to which I have spoken before and I owe the Committee a brief explanation. The Amendment adds an additional paragraph to Clause 5 so as to extend the provisions in respect of the right to belong to a trade union when trade unions are provisionally registered, as foreshadowed in Clauses 74 to 76, so that trade unions which, on the passing of the Bill, move on to the provisional register by virtue of their presence on the old register, or those that apply for inclusion on the provisional register, will have extended to them and their members the rights set out in subsection (1), (2) and (5) of Clause 5. I commend the Amendment to the Committee.
      Amendment agreed to.
      [Sir ROBERT GRANT-FERRIS in the Chair]
      Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
      Mr. Heffer: The circumstances which we face are, of course, very difficult for the Opposition. We wanted to have a serious scrutiny of the Bill Clause by Clause, and later we hope that at least we shall be able to reach Clause 11, the agency shop issue, so that there may be some serious discussion on it before we reach the period of the guillotine. Therefore, I shall be extremely brief on this Motion.
      We believe that Clause 5 deals a serious blow to the trade union movement because it hits at one of the most fundamental principles on which the trade union movement is based—the right of 100 per cent. trade unionism, either through the pre-entry or post-entry closed shop or whatever one might call it.
      I want to speak about the closed shop because there is a great deal of confusion on the matter. As far as the closed shop is concerned, the basic concept of the trade union movement is 100 per cent. trade unionism and, of course, the closed shop does not necessarily follow, in every case, the pre-entry closed shop or 100 per cent. trade unionism. We regard Clause 5(l)(b) as a most serious infringement of the fundamental rights of trade unionists and the trade union movement. There are other aspects of the Clause which should have been dealt with in great detail but which were not and could not be reached.
      Mr. Tom King Mr. Tom King (Bridgwater) rose—
      Hon. Members: No.
      Mr. Heffer: I am sorry. I hope that I am not being discourteous to the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Tom King), out, frankly, we wish to make progress.
      Mr. King Mr. King rose—
      Hon. Members: No.
      Mr. Heffer: If my hon. Friends will also let me say "No", we shall make pogress. I appreciate their support on this matter, but I am saying "No" to the hon. Gentleman.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: I have sat here quietly.
      Mr. Heffer: I appreciate my hon. Friend's support. The part of that Clause which is very important and which ought to have been discussed at some length is subsection(5)(a) and 5(b) which can have a detrimental effect on those who are trade unionists and members of local authorities. I do not think that people have gone into that sufficiently. It is a very important principle with which we have not been able to deal in detail. We are totally opposed to this Clause and I shall invite my hon. and right hon. Friends to oppose it.
      Mr. Kenneth Lewis: I tabled Amendment No. 493, which was not selected. I should like the Minister to have a look at this and come back on Report after considering the point that I make there. My point is that in subsection (2)(b) there are the words:
      "to dismiss, penalise or otherwise discriminate"
      This says that an employer must not dismiss, penalise or otherwise discriminate against a worker. The words are then repeated in subsection (3)(a) and this gives the right to the employer to dismiss, penalise or otherwise discriminate against a worker.
      I could go into the reasons why I think in that case those words should be taken out. To save time I will simply say that if we give the employer a right to discipline in this way we may cause further trouble in the works, leading to strikes and all the rest of that which we are trying to avoid through this Bill. We should take out the words in subsection (3) relating to "otherwise discriminate against" and give the employer simply the right to dismiss, against which dismissal the employee would have the right of appeal in any case.
      7.15 p.m.
      Mr. Charles Loughlin: I apologise to my hon. Friends because of course they do not want to spend a great deal of time discussing Clauses when there is a guillotine in operation. I do not know what the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Kenneth Lewis) was talking about. It was difficult to follow him. This Clause is fundamental to the rights of trade

      891
      unionists. Even working with the guillotine it is not within the remit of any member of the Labour party who is a Member of this House to allow the Clause to go by with the kind of speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) I am reluctant to criticise him because I have a great affection and respect for him.
      This Clause is a part of the Bill which is of paramount importance for trade union movement. I want to be restrained in my language but this Clause typifies the attitude of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite towards the trade union movement. There are a number of new Members in the Committee and I notice that whenever a Member on this side was talking about the right of the trade unions to organise in a particular industry or factory, that seemed to engender hilarity among some new Members. They seemed to express consciously or unconsciously a violent antagonism to the trade union movement. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I have been in this House a number of years—
      Mr. John Biggs-Davison: Too long.
      Mr. Loughlin: Many hon. Members opposite with whom I have had associations over the years have a great deal of sympathy for the trade union movement. What I am bothered about is the number of new Members opposite who have evinced an antagonism which I do not think is justified. Even if they do not like trade unions, if they have had any experience of industrial relations they must realise that whatever difficulties may exist between management and trade unions, British industry has to live with the movement. It will never be destroyed. If this Bill is not designed to destroy the trade union movement, then it unwittingly seeks to do so.
      Mr. Norman Tebbit: Would the hon. Gentleman make it plain that his strictures of anti-trade unionism do not apply to me, since I am among the new intake of 1970. I am a trade unionist and have been for many years. While I can speak only for myself at any time, I should like to make it clear that I deeply resent that sort of wild accusation, which the hon. Gentleman should withdraw at once.
      Mr. Loughlin: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has made that intervention. [Interruption.] I hear one of my colleagues say "There's three of them." I think he meant three trade unionists on that side of the Committee. I am not interested in that but I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has stood up and identified himself in that way. As far as he is concerned I will withdraw any implied stricture.
      I am like most hon. Members of this House—[HON. MEMBERS: "YOU are not."] No, I am better than most. Can I re-phrase that and say that I am like most people. That will exclude most hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. My statement was a reaction to what I saw and heard in the debate whenever the question of trade union membership was raised.
      The Clause is important in two ways. First, it does not seek to destroy the trade union movement, but it will inevitably do so. Secondly, and much more important, it can be a major reason for industrial dispute. I beg the Secretary of State and the Government to recognise that once the closed shop is challenged, even though all the procedures are gone through and individual trade unions and shop stewards are subjected to fines, there will still be trade union members determined that under no circumstances will the Government or an employer frustrate their efforts to have a full closed shop. Any attempt to frustrate those efforts will cause industrial disputes. It is not in the interests of British industry that industrial disputes should arise from the Clause and I ask the Secretary of State, even at this stage when we are deciding how to vote on the Clause, to look at it again. I promise him that there will be more industrial disputes, more strikes, more disruptions and more damage done to the economy from an attempt to ban the closed shop than from any other issue that he or anyone else likes to raise.
      Mr. Christopher Woodhouse: I wish only to add one point to that raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Kenneth Lewis) relating to Clause 5(2)(b) and the words about dismissing, penalising or otherwise discriminating. What will be the position of a worker who takes the option under Clause 8 or Clause 9 not to be a member

      893
      of the trade union in the event of a dispute leading to an official strike? Will his employer be obliged to provide work for him during the strike—which will add to the bitterness of the dispute—or, if he does not do so, will he be guilty of a lockout against the worker and therefore of discrimination under Clause 5(2, b).
      Mr. Ashton: Does the term "trade union activities" in Clause 5 include time off for attending to local council work, acting as a justice of the peace and similar activities?
      Mr. R. Carr: This is a matter which has been in the past—and is at present— for local negotiation and collective bar-
      gaining. We believe that in our Code of Practice we should, and shall, lay down guidelines for the facilities that should be given in connection with trade union activities; but matters of time off for participating in council work, voluntary work, and so on, cannot be legislated. This country has a high tradition for this sort of work, it can best be provided for in this way, and I think that is probably how the majority of the trade union movement would wish it to be left.
      Question put, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill: —
      The Committee divided: Ayes 290. Noes 261.

      Division No. 86.]

      AYES

      [7.27 p.m.

      Adley, Robert

      Costain, A. P.

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

      Critchley, Julian

      Hannam, John (Exeter)

      Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

      Crouch, David

      Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

      Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

      Crowder, F. P.

      Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

      Curran, Charles

      Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

      Astor, John

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Atkins, Humphrey

      Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

      Hastings, Stephen

      Awdry, Daniel

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

      Havers, Michael

      Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

      d''Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

      Hawkins, Paul

      Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

      Dean, Paul

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Balniet, Lord

      Digby, Simon Wingfield

      Heseltine, Michael

      Batsford, Brian

      Dixon, Piers

      Hicks, Robert

      Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

      Dodds-Parker, Douglas

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Bell, Ronald

      Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

      Hiley, Joseph

      Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

      Drayson, G. B.

      Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

      Benyon, W.

      du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

      Berry, Hn. Anthony

      Eden, Sir John

      Holland, Philip

      Biffen, John

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Holt, Miss Mary

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

      Hordern, Peter

      Blaker, Peter

      Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.N.)

      Hornby, Richard

      Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

      Emery, Peter

      Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

      Body, Richard

      Eyre, Reginald

      Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

      Boscawen, Robert

      Farr, John

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Bossom, Sir Clive

      Fell, Anthony

      Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

      Bowden, Andrew

      Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

      Hunt, John

      Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

      Fidler, Michael

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Braine, Bernard

      Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

      Iremonger, T. L.

      Bray, Ronald

      Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

      James, David

      Brewis, John

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

      Brinton, Sir Tatton

      Fookes Miss Janet

      Jessel, Toby

      Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

      Foster Sir John

      Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Fowler, Norman

      Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

      Bruce-Gardyne, J.

      Fox, Marcus

      Jopling, Michael

      Bryan, Paul

      Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

      Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&M)

      Fry, Peter

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Buck, Antony

      Gardner, Edward

      Kilfedder James

      Bullus, Sir Eric

      Gilmour, lan (Norfolk, C.)

      Kimball, Marcus

      Burden, F. A.

      Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

      King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Glyn, Dr. Alan

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray&Nalrn)

      Goodhart, Philip

      Kinsey, J. R.

      Cartisle, Mark

      Goodhew, Victor

      Kirk Peter

      Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Gorst, John

      Knight, Mrs. Jill

      Channon, Paul

      Gower, Raymond

      Knox, David

      Chapman, Sydney

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

      Lambton, Antony

      Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

      Gray, Hamish

      Lane, David

      Chichester-Clark, R.

      Green, Alan

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Churchill, W. S.

      Grieve, Percy

      Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

      Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

      Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Grylls, Michael

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Cockeram, Eric

      Gummer, Selwyn

      Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

      Cooke, Robert

      Gurden, Harold

      Longden, Gilbert

      Cooper, A. E.

      Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

      Loveridge, John

      Cordle, John

      Hall, John (Wycombe)

      McAdden, Sir Stephen

      Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      MacArthur, lan

      Cormack, Patrick

      McCrindle, R. A.

      McLaren, Martin

      Peel, John

      Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

      Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

      Percival, Ian

      Sutcliffe, John

      McMaster, Stanley

      Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

      Swain, Thomas

      Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

      Pike, Miss Mervyn

      Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

      McNair-Wilson, Michael

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

      McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

      Pounder, Rafton

      Taylor, Robert (Croydon N. W.)

      Maddan, Martin

      Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

      Tebbit, Norman

      Madel, David

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Temple, John M.

      Maginnis, John E.

      Proudfoot, Wilfred

      Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

      Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

      Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

      Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

      Marten, Neil

      Quenell, Miss J. M.

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

      Mather, Carol

      Raison, Timothy

      Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon S.)

      Maude, Angus

      Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

      Tilney, John

      Maucling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

      Trafford, Dr. Anthony

      Mawby, Ray

      Redmond, Robert

      Trew, Peter

      Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

      Reed, Lauranoe (Bolton, E.)

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Pees, Peter (Dover)

      Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

      Mills, Peter (Torrington)

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

      Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

      Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

      Waddington, David

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Mitchen, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire,W)

      Ratey, Hn. Nicholas

      Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

      Moate, Roger

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

      Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

      Molyneaux, James

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Wall, Patrick

      Money, Ernie

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Walters, Dennis

      Monro, Hector

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Ward, Dame Inene

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Rost, Peter

      Warren, Kenneth

      More, Jasper

      Russell, Sir Ronald

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

      White, Roger (Gravesend)

      Mudd, David

      Shelton, William (Clapham)

      Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

      Murton, Oscar

      Simeons, Charles

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Nabarro, Sir Gerald

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Wilkinson, John

      Neave, Airey

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

      Nicholls, Sir Harmar

      Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

      Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Normanton, Tom

      Sonef, Harold

      Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

      Nott, John

      Speed, Keith

      Woodnutt, Mark

      Onslow, Cranley

      Spence, John

      Worsley, Marcus

      Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

      Sproat, lain

      Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

      Osborn, John

      Stainton, Keith

      Younger, Hn. George

      Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Page, Graham (Crosby)

      Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Page, John (Harrow, W.)

      Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

      Mr. Walter Clegg and

      Pardoe, John

      Stoloes, John

      Mr. Tim Fortescue.

      Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Concannon, J. D.

      Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

      Albu, Austen

      Conlan, Bernard

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

      Corbet, Mrs. Freda

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Allen, Scholefield

      Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

      Foley, Maurice

      Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Foot, Michael

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Cronin, John

      Ford, Ben

      Ashley, Jack

      Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

      Forrester, John

      Ashton, Joe

      Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

      Fraser, John (Norwood)

      Atkinson, Norman

      Dalyell, Tam

      Freeson, Reginald

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Darling, Rt. Hn. George

      Galpern, Sir Myer

      Barnes, Michael

      Davidson, Arthur

      Garrett, W. E.

      Bamett, Joel

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

      Gilbert, Dr. John

      Beaney, Alan

      Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

      Ginsburg, David

      Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

      Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

      Gourlay, Harry

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Deakins, Eric

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

      Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

      Boardman, H. (Leigh)

      Delargy, H. J.

      Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

      Booth, Albert

      Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

      Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

      Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

      Dempsey, James

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

      Doig, Peter

      Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

      Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

      Dormand, J. D.

      Hardy, Peter

      Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

      Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

      Harper, Joseph

      Buchan, Norman

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

      Driberg, Tom

      Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

      Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Hattersley, Roy

      Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

      Dunn, James A.

      Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

      Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

      Dunnett, Jack

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Cant, R. B.

      Eadie, Alex

      Hilton, W. S.

      Carmichael, Neil

      Edelman, Maurice

      Horam, John

      Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

      Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

      Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

      Edwards, William (Merioneth)

      Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

      Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

      Ellis, Tom

      Huckfieid, Leslie

      Clark, David (Colne Valley)

      English, Michael

      Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

      Evans, Fred

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Cohen, Stanley

      Fernyhough, E.

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

      Coleman, Donald

      Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      896

      897

      Hunter, Adam

      Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

      Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

      lrvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

      Meacher, Michael

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

      Janner, Greville

      Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

      Jay Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Mendelson, John

      Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

      Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Millan, Bruce

      Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

      Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

      Miller, Dr. M. S.

      Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

      John, Brynmor

      Milne, Edward (Blyth)

      Sillars, John

      Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

      Molloy, William

      Silverman, Julius

      Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

      Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S.)

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Small, William

      Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

      Spearing, Nigel

      Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

      Moyle, Roland

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

      Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Stallard, A. W.

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Murray, Ronald King

      Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

      Kelley, Richard

      Ogden, Eric

      Stoddart, David (Swindon)

      Kerr, Russell

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

      Kinnock, Neil

      O'Malley, Brian

      Strang, Gavin

      Lambie, David

      Orbach, Maurice

      Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

      Lamond, James

      Orme, Stanley

      Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

      Latham, Arthur

      Oswald, Thomas

      Swain, Thomas

      Lawson, George

      Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Tavenne, Dick

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Padley, Walter

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Paget, R. T.

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Leonard, Dick

      Palmer, Arthur

      Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

      Tinn, James

      Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

      Parker, John (Dagenham)

      Tomney, Frank

      Lewis, Arthur(W. Ham, N.)

      Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Torney, Tom

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Pavitt Laurie

      Tuck, Raphael

      Lipton Marcus

      Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

      Urwin, T. W.

      Lornas, Kenneth

      Pendry, Tom

      Varley, Eric G.

      Loughlin, Charles

      Pentland, Norman

      Wainwright, Edwin

      Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

      Perry, Ernest G.

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

      Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

      Wallace, George

      Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

      Prescott, John

      Watkins, David

      McBride, Neil

      Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

      Weitzman, David

      McCartney, Hugh

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Wellbeloved, James

      McElhone Frank

      Probert, Arthur

      Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

      McGuire, Michael

      Rankin, John

      White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Mackie, John

      Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

      Whitlock, William

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Rhodes, Geoffrey

      Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Maclennan, Robert

      Richard, Ivor

      Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

      McNamara, J. Kevin

      Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      MacPherson, Malcolm

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

      Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

      Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n & R'dnor)

      Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E).

      Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Marks, Kenneth

      Roper, John

      Mr. John Golding and

      Marquand, David

      Rose, Paul B.

      Mr. William Hamling.

      Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
      [Sir ALFRED BROUGHTON in the Chair]

    Clause 6

      PRESSURE ON EMPLOYER TO INFRINGE RIGHTS UNDER S. 5.
      Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
      Mr. Paul B. Rose: Clause 6 creates two unfair Practices, first in relation to calling, organising, procuring or financing a strike and, secondly, a completely new concept, irregular action short of a strike. I intend to show that this relates directly to Clause 5, in other words, to action in favour of a union shop. Clause 6 applies not
      898
      merely to action taken by people, but to words that are uttered or printed and even to something which may be said unguardedly in the heat of the moment on the shop floor. This Clause makes such utterances into unfair practice. It may be that a newspaper article might lead to the same result.
      We can see from subsection (1)(b) that refusing overtime may well be an unfair practice short of a strike. This may affect, for example, teaching, because there may be occasions of dispute when the union wishes to impose sanctions upon the employing authority by withholding administrative duties, and at the same time wish to ensure the continued education of the children in the schools. As the Clause stands, such action would undoubtedly be an irregular industrial action. This applies also to nurses who

      899
      want to go on nursing but wish to make their weight felt—a cause which I would support. On the shop floor in an engineering firm, for example, a group of workers who together decide to bang their machines with spanners are guilty of an unfair practice if they do so when the foreman comes in. An unimaginable variety of practices may be encompassed by the second limb of Clause 6(1)(b).
      The Government tell the Committee that the Bill is in favour of and meant to assist the trade union movement. It is therefore remarkable that it does not mention action short of a lockout. On the one hand, it mentions action short of a strike but, on the other hand, it does not mention action short of a lock-out. There is nothing to stop the unfair inducement of a person not to strike. Nothing in the Bill prevents an employer from paying double time or promoting a man because he happens to be a blackleg, or, to use the more appropriate word which I was brought up with when I worked in factories, a scab. Let us not be afraid to use that word. The ramifications of the Clause are astonishingly wide.
      In Clause (5)(2) there is no definition of the words "deter", "penalise" or "discriminate against". Yet it is to that particular subsection that Clause 6 applies. I ask my hon. Friends to forgive me if they get lost in a tangled mass of cross-references at a later stage. Although the Bill lacks these definitions, I remember that when I served on the Committee dealing with race relations it was thought fit to define the term "discriminate against". This is typical of the sloppy drafting of the Bill and explains why the Government were so anxious to allow two more days on Report, not to allow greater freedom of debate, but to correct their own sloppy drafting and mistakes in preparing the Bill.
      What I am particularly concerned about is that in applying Clause 6(1) as defined by Clause 6(2) to Clause 5(2), we then look at Clause 5(2)(a), which in turn applies to Clause 5(1). If that sounds rather difficult for hon. Gentlemen to understand, perhaps they can understand the difficulties that employers and trade unionists will encounter when they have
      900
      to deal with these legal complexities which are injected into the Bill.
      What it boils down to is that it becomes illegal to prevent, or even deter, a person from being a free-rider—the sort of person I described yesterday as somebody who rides on the backs of his fellow workers—by one of the actions indicated in the Clause. In other words, its effect will be to overrule the Trade Disputes Act, 1965, by the back door; it will fly in the face of the Donovan Report, as in these debates we have seen the Government are intent in doing; and it will go beyond the decision in Rookes v. Barnard in making a breach of fair industrial practice what today would not be a breach of law even if done through a strike. The 1906 Act will become meaningless as a defence, because we are not dealing here with torts but with unfair industrial practices.
      The Donovan Report said, in paragraph 852:
      "We think that this last statute"—
      referring to the Trade Disputes Act, 1965—
      "was necessary for the protection of trade union officials in the reasonable performance of their functions and do not recommend its repeal."
      Donovan went further than that and leaned the opposite way to what is now being proposed by the Government, since in paragraph 854 it said:
      "…it has been suggested that liability for civil conspiracy might arise where a number of persons agreed together, in contemplating or furtherence of a trade dispute, to break their contracts of employment in combination, since they would be parties to an agreement to do an 'unlawful' act … This possibility is one which we think should be removed by legislation."
      Once again we have the Secretary of State deciding policy on the basis of a scrawny pamphlet brought out in the darkness of the pre-Donovan era. He has admitted, as did the Solicitor-General yesterday, that the work on this subject was done long before the Donovan Report. One wonders why Royal Commissions are set up if they are merely ignored and if the Government act in an opposite direction to their recommendations. Therefore, they are intent on overruling the Trade Disputes Act, 1965. This is important because Rookes v. Barnard is to be reincarnated in a new form to by-pass the 1965 Act by creating these unfair industrial practices.

      901
      7.45 P.m.
      I put the matter to the Solicitor-General in a practical way. If as the members of the same profession, assuming that we were members of the same trade union, the Solicitor-General might —understandably after some of the remarks I have made about his Bill—say in a moment in indignation "That chap Rose ought not to be allowed to be a member of the Bar" or the union to which we might belong, that would be an offence under this Clause. It would be an offence merely to state an opinion if that were interpreted as organising, procuring or calling a strike or threatening to do so, or constituting irregular action short of a strike.
      More seriously, there is a restriction not of the right to strike, which itself would be a restriction against all our international obligations, but on the right to speak in such a manner that workers may do in industry in taking some action even short of a strike to try to deter somebody from not joining a union. In other words, it is a gag, an intrusion into free speech which Rookes v. Barnard taken to extremes could not envisage. It would embrace other forms of intimidation and censorship, the like of which would be more fitting in Prague or Posnan, Burgos or Barcelona. It is astonishing that a man as kindly as is the right hon. Gentleman dedicated to freedom of speech should contemplate such a proposal as is embodied in this Clause. It is an infringement of human rights which nobody on this side of the Committee—and I hope that this goes for the representative of the Liberal Party who is present—could possibly support.
      It defies the I.L.O. Convention on the right to strike, but goes far beyond that in suppressing strongly held feelings on the shop floor or indeed in the classroom. It is intended to deter, penalise and discriminate against ordinary free men and women in what we all thought was a free society.
      It is not only aimed at the shop floor workers but basically at trade union officials trying to do their job. It is aimed at journalists and at politicians and at political commentators. We know that the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Soref) sees a red on every cathode ray tube, be it coloured or black and white;
      902
      and this could be applied even to a commentator of the B.B.C. or I.T.V. if his words were interpreted in this way. This could lead to a form of censorship. But it also deals with financing, so that the £5 that my hon. Friends and I gladly donate towards the cause of the postmen in a strike forced upon them by this Government would probably be brought before an industrial tribunal or the N.I.R.C. because of our actions, because we would be financing a strike.
      I am sure that everyone of my hon. Friends and I who contributed in this way would be guilty of an offence under this Bill. Mr. Silverthorne in Rookes v. Barnard had no contract to break, not being an employee, but he was a trade union official inducing others to break their contract. Mr. Justice Sargant in that case called the right of a trade union to strike to enforce a 100 per cent. membership something enshrined in our legal system.
      Mr. Ronald King Murray (Edinburgh, Leith): My hon. Friend has mentioned that in looking at Clauses 5 and 6 there is a reference back from Clause 6 to Clause 5 and he gave an illustration. Would he agree that in regard to Clause 6 one could have an irregular industrial action short of a strike spontaneously on the shop floor relating to the dismissal of a worker under Clause 5(2)(b) who under Clause 5(1)(a) had joined an organisation of workers which was not a trade union? He is not given a right under Clause 5(1)(a) to do that. Therefore, it would not be unfair if the employer dismissed him under Clause 5(2)(b) and an irregular industrial action short of a strike would not be an industrial action. Is this not an invitation to irregular industrial action and would this not undermine the strength of trade unions?
      Mr. Rose: My hon. and learned Friend is making a very good point on the legality of the closed shop. "Trade union" in the Bill means a registered trade union. I think my hon. Friend has in mind that, enshrined in this so-called charter of rights for workers, is the right not to belong to a trade union, but what is not protected is the right to belong to a trade union which is not registered. What my hon. Friend said must follow if

      903
      one reads it in the light of the cross-references from Clause 6 to Clause 5 and then to Clause 5(1)(b). When one gets into those kind of technicalities one understands why the trade union movement, and indeed all those persons who are concerned at the chaos which this will inject into industry, are concerned about this kind of drafting in a Bill of such major importance.
      The protection afforded by the 1906 Act against inducing breach must now be rendered valueless in the light of this Clause in respect of those matters set out in Clause 5. It is one of the many inroads which will be made by Parliament despite the courts, into the protection, long built up over the years, regarding liabilities and immunities. At a later stage we shall be debating Clauses 85 to 87 which virtually nullify the protection afforded to trades unions and their servants and which virtually puts unregistered trade unions outside the law.
      So the guillotine is to fall not only on this Committee, but upon everyone remotely concerned with problems in industry who may wish to advocate a closed shop because he may fear that what he says will lead him to being charged with threatening—that is all one needs to do —to procure or, indeed, procuring some action which workers may take towards that end even if that action is not a strike.
      I really think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman must understand the far-reaching nature of the Clause. We know how difficult it is to retract when one has made a mistake, but, even at this late stage, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman will not accept deletion of the Clause, I ask him at least to undertake to reconsider it on Report. The right hon. and learned Gentleman must know that the Clause is offensive to anybody with a liberal conscience because it is not basically dealing with strikes or action short of a strike; it is dealing with the right to speak, the right to advocate action—indeed, the right to pay money to somebody or the right merely to make a statement that may result in, say, teachers refusing to take dinner money. There will be a lot more dinner money to take very shortly, and nobody will blame the teachers if they refuse to take it.
      904
      In the interests of harmony in industry, I appeal to the right hon. and learned Gentleman to understand that what he is doing will impose a gag upon the worker on the shop floor or in the office in the way that his right hon. Friend has imposed a gag upon right hon. and hon. Members.
      Mr. Orme: I want to make a brief intervention to underline what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose).
      Clause 6 introduces a new concept into industrial relations which will be enforceable by law. It is concerned not merely with whether a worker has gone on strike but if he even threatens to take such action, or if he decides, because of pressures within an industry, to go slow or not to co-operate with the employer. In such circumstances the employer can use the provisions in the Clause to threaten a worker whom he feels is not working hard enough.
      In the engineering industry there is a worker—a most peculiar animal— who is classified as of average ability. I have never found him. Whether he works hard or not so hard, in the middle we have the anonymous worker called the worker of average ability. I can see the provisions in the Clause being used as a means of pressurising workers not only in the classic go-slow case which we had recently in the electricity supply industry but in any factory where a decision is taken to go slow.
      To write into the Bill provisions affecting a worker's virtual liberty to stand up for himself and to disagree with his employer and for the employer to be able to say to him, "You are taking unfair industrial action and I can take action against you through the industrial court for this", does not, in my opinion, auger well for industrial relations.
      A new concept has been written into the Bill. Not only do the Government want an open-and-shut case on withdrawal of labour; they want to close every door. They want to encompass the whole trade union movement with legislation governing go slow, threatening to go slow, threatening not to co-operate, and so on.
      We do not want to prolong the debate —my hon. Friends and I are making

      905
      brief speeches—but we regard this as a point of major principle.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: I, too, will be brief.
      This is one of the most shocking Clauses in the Bill. I have heard hon. Members—indeed, I heard the late Sir Winston Churchill on one occasion—say that it must be the right of every free man or woman to withdraw his or her labour if for any reason he or she feels that to be necessary. What have we here? Not only will they not be entitled to withdraw their labour, but even the threat of withdrawing their labour will be liable to penal action.
      I do not know whether the lawyers who drafted the Bill have worked in factories, such as Fords, or in the docks. Do they really not understand that when workers get hot under the collar and lose their tempers they may say that they will call the workers out, but that at that moment it is the last thing they mean? But if the employer responds a little too aggresively, the whole thing can go up and, under the Bill, action can he taken immediately.
      I want to illustrate the point by what has happened in this House. We have a strike in this House——
      Mr. David James (Dorset, North): A go slow.
      Mr. Lewis: No, not a go slow. We are going very fast. The Government have broken their word to have discussions and negotiations. Because of their lack of understanding and appreciation they have forced through a guillotine and they now have the audacity to say that we, who are not in control of the affairs of the House, have brought about a strike, or the equivalent, in this House, because of the action which we have had to take.
      The Government are now going to impose penal actions upon the ordinary workers and trade unionists of this country. The Government can do what they like. They can bring in anything they like. However, I prophesy that they will never stop strikes, because workers are far too clever to be caught by these highly-paid lawyers.
      I ask the Solicitor-General to consider this point. I speak with experience. I am the only Member of Parliament present who, whilst an M.P., has called, taken part in, and led strikes one after
      906
      the other for many weeks on end. Some of my hon. Friends will remember the Savoy Hotel strike, the Ritz, the Dorchester and the Mayfair, when I had the employees out for weeks on end. Indeed, some of them were not members of the union originally, but they all joined. There are 101 different ways of going about things.
      What will happen? I may say to my workers, "Look, boys, you must not strike. I am telling you that you must not strike because it is against the law. Nor must you threaten to strike." If it happens to be Ascot week and all these Tory Ministers and hon. Gentlemen and company directors are going to Ascot, I may say, "Boys, do not strike. If you want to go to Ascot, spend a week there, but do not say that I said so, because I am saying that you must not go." They all go to Ascot and see all the company directors and the millionaire supporters of the Tory Party there.
      I might even suggest that it is grouse shooting day, but they must not take time off to go grouse shooting. I tell them that they must not strike, and that I am not threatening a strike. I say to the boys that they must all decide whether they want to go grouse shooting and when they get there they find a number of Tories who are wasting their time. The official statistics of days lost never include all these Tories who go to the Derby, to Ascot, or to play in golf tournaments.
      It may, on the other hand, be a day when some Tories are at work and not attending horse race meetings——
      Mr. David James Mr. David James rose——
      8 p.m
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: Wait a moment. Do not be so impatient.
      Perhaps all the boys decide that they have headaches. Perhaps they all decide to go and see their doctors. They all decide to have a medical examination. I tell them not to strike. I tell them that I happen to be going to see my doctor at twelve o'clock, and suddenly all my workmates in the factory decide that they will go to see their doctors at the same time. Is that a strike? I can imagine what will happen at Fords. The shop stewards at Fords will have some fun with this provision. I can imagine

      907
      what will happen when Arsenal are playing at home. They will say to the lads, "You must not strike, but we have a few tickets and we are going to see the match".
      Mr. David James: As one of those wicked Tories who would die of boredom if he went to Ascot, may I ask the hon. Gentleman why should anyone who works in any capacity not take his leisure in the manner that he likes?
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has asked me that. Why should not workers go to see a football match? The Solicitor-General will no doubt say that they are striking, but they are not going on strike. I am saying that this Clause is absurd, that it is ridiculous. It will not achieve what the Government want. I could drive a horse and cart through this provision. I shall have all the time off that I want. This provision will not stop me.
      By carrying through this provision the Government will get the backs of the workers up, and responsible trade union leaders will find that workers on the factory floor will get round this provision. The Government will cause a lot of bitterness, for no reason, and defeat their own objective.
      Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, North): It is important to realise the tremendous attack that is being made on the freedom of speech. It is a fundamental right to express an opinion, but the only people who will be able to express an opinion about an industrial dispute after the Bill becomes law will be Members of Parliament, who are protected by privilege.
      In a great speech to the Labour Party Conference my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) urged the miners to vote in favour of strike action. Under the Bill his speech would have been illegal because my hon. Friend had no direct interest other than as one trade unionist speaking to another. I should regard that as a direct interest, but under the Bill he would be regarded as having no direct interest.
      Anyone outside the House who counsels, advises or suggests means of doing things will be guilty of an irregular industrial action. When the nurses came
      908
      to the House last year—or it may have been the year before—to petition hon. Members I said to them, "If you are serious you should go further than merely raising hell". I was advising them to take irregular industrial action. This is a tremendous attack upon an important principle.
      Mr. Tom King: The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends have drawn attention from the second part of this provision. No one would be putting himself at risk in encouraging any dispute. The point would be whether it was in furtherance of an unfair industrial action. If it comes at the end of a procedure agreement, or a regular agreement, the person concerned will not be putting himself at risk.
      Mr. McNamara: The great point about irregular industrial action is that it generally takes place towards the end of an agreement. When I was talking to some teachers last week they asked me, "What will happen if we refuse to mark examination papers?" I said that that would be irregular industrial action. I told them that even if they were carrying out the main purpose of their contract—which is to educate children and see that they are well cared for in school—and, even if they were doing all the other jobs which they were called upon to do, if they refused to mark examination papers, or refused to supervise examinations, or refused to take part in extra curricular activities, they would be guilty of irregular industrial practice.
      I do not want to delay the Committee, and therefore I shall not go into the various contracts of service for teachers which I have here, but the wide and sweeping powers given to local education authorities, as the employers of teachers, make almost any action that they take wrongful industrial action. Our concern about this provision is that we shall not at any particular time know what is or is not an irregular industrial action.
      Mr. Woodhouse: The hon. Gentleman is a lawyer, and I am not. I am following his argument with interest. As I understand Clause 6, it is concerned only with industrial action to procure a result contrary to Clause 5. Is that not so?
      Mr. McNamara: Yes. We have debated Clause 5. Many of the provisions

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      in that Clause have been debated in detail. We have objected in principle to matters which it will be possible to regard as irregular action. An example of this is enforcing the closed shop. I say no more, because I am sure that the Committee wants to make progress.
      Mr. Dan Jones: I have a great deal of practical experience of the engineering industry. When people talk about agreements, they usually have in mind twelvemonth or three-year agreements. It ought to be realised that in the engineering industry agreements are made every day, and every week. What would be the position if a group of people, who were being given a new job and were to be paid at what are called estimated time rates decided not to work under those conditions? It is known that estimated time rates are very much lower than the eventually agreed time rates. If they were to say that they were not prepared to accept the estimated rates, would they be regarded as being on strike?
      Yesterday the Minister said that he had had consultations with the Engineering Employers' Federation. Has that matter been discussed? I assure the Committee that piece-rate times are always a matter of great argument, and eventual compromise, and that very often while these arguments are taking place means are found of accommodating the workers.
      Will the Minister say that in those circumstances the people concerned are invoking a strike? Does the Minister intend to create a situation in which the amount of discussion on serious issues will be curtailed? Does the Minister think that by this process he is introducing anything that is remotely connected with industrial peace?
      Mr. J. R. Kinsey (Birmingham, Perry Barr): Hon. Members opposite are at variance with the Clause as I understand it. It seems that this Clause gives effect to the previous Clause which has already been approved. We have listened to the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) saying that trade unionists would unite to defeat those rights. This Clause will prevent that taking place.
      Mr. Edwin Wainwright (Dearne Valley): Any Bill dealing with industrial relations should be aimed at improving them. This
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      Clause will cause more trouble in industry. Anyone who has any knowledge of agreements or conditions knows that no matter how well the case is put, if an employer is stubborn and adamant, then the trade union leader will fail to get what he wants. What happens? The trade union leader goes to his branch and his members are dissatisfied. They are moaning, and anyone in that mood who can be accused of procuring or threatening industrial action would be liable under this Clause.
      If this is so, what will happen to industrial relations between employer and employee? It is said that management in this country is of a low standard compared with other countries. That is where the stubborn management comes in. When managements refuse to be reasonable they create militancy and when they fail to deal with the fair-minded unionists the militants step in and threaten a strike. Within 24 hours there is an increase in wages or conditions are improved, or both. That is tantamount to inviting the militants to take over. The stubbornness and foolishness of the employers has created this position which is detrimental to the trade union movement.
      This Bill will cause more disruption throughout industry. This Clause is disgraceful. It will encourage people to find ways and means of fighting the obdurate and stubborn manager—and industry is full of them. I am surprised that any Government has the audacity to bring forward such a Clause thinking that it will improve industrial relations when it will make them worse.
      Mr. Nicholas Edwards (Pembroke): I have listened with increasing bewilderment to the debate. The Amendment was introduced by a lawyer and I am not a lawyer. We have heard some eloquent descriptions of the effects which the Clause might have, but as I read it, it refers to Clause 5(2) and appears to be protecting the unions from an unfair industrial action by the employer.
      Mr. Rose: The hon. Gentleman should understand that Clause 5(2) refers in turn to Clause 5(1), which means that it refers to the right not to join a union and enshrines that right. The action envisaged is in relation to opposition and those people who want to act as free riders.
      Mr. Edwards: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman, who has narrowed the debate to a situation in which an employer might be induced to sack his employees. It seemed that the debate had been widened well beyond that point towards industrial situations which could not possibly be covered by the Clause. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend can clarify this.
      8.15 p.m.
      Mr. Barry Jones (Flint, East): There are about 500,000 teachers in England and Wales controlling the lives and destinies of 5 million or more children. As I understand the Clause, it will eliminate all industrial action short of a strike and, in effect, make the strike the only sanction in the event of a dispute. When teachers have disputes with their local education authorities, they do not necessarily want to have a strike. They would rather operate sanctions such as refusal to collect dinner money, refusal to participate in out-of-doors activities after school hours, refusal to do marking, collect savings, take the children on holiday or on weekend activities.
      Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson (New Forest): The hon. Gentleman has not explained how any of these examples get within Clause 5.
      Mr. Barry Jones: I want to be brief.
      Mr. McNamara: Hon. Members opposite have referred to the reference in line 22 of Clause 5(2) of the Bill as though that were limiting subsection (2) of Clause 6. This is the definition Clause of the Bill containing the definition of irregular industrial practice, and this is the time to show up some of the absurdities which exist.
      Mr. Barry Jones: This is a myopic Clause and an incitement to members of the teaching profession to strike.
      Mr. John Mendelson (Penistone): I anticipate that the Solicitor-General's argument will be that the Clause is narrowly drawn, and this is also my reading of the main substance of Clause 6. Also, subsection (2) attempts a definition which will be valid throughout the Bill. So there are two aspects which have not been clarified until recently and it would create common ground if they could be accepted and we proceeded from there.
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      This general definition is obnoxious to us and to the unions, who are not prepared to accept it. This subsection refers back to Clause 5 and this narrower part of its purpose is just as obnoxious. Now there should be no more disagreement about what we are attacking.
      I deeply object to what is being done in the narrower subsection (1). We must refer back to the text of Clause 5, from which hon. Members on this side tried to remove the words from "or" in line 17 on page 4 to the words "other such organisations". The Government objected to that and called on their supporters, so these words are part of the Clause. Therefore, the far-reaching definition of unfair industrial action in Clause 6 will come fully into operation if any of these words are acted against or if anyone believes that this is happening and brings a charge. This puts workers and unionists into the greatest jeopardy and this is what we are all concerned about.
      Mr. Tebbit: May we be clear that this would not have applied in the circumstances of the recent calls for a strike in the mining industry?
      Mr. Mendelson: It is not my purpose to adjudicate in a brief debate on matters which would have to be decided by an industrial court. We are discussing the importance of these two Clauses and pointing out why this narrower part of the Clause would put many union officials and members into great jeopardy.
      It is evident from the words which have remained in Clause 5(2)(c) that, if work people or a union section objected to the way in which an employer was approaching the membership in his plant, under this new and wide definition, they would not have to proceed to a strike. All they would have to do is talk about these matters clearly and frankly, as British workers normally do, to their employer. Under the provision of the narrower part of Clause 6, they would then be committing an unfair industrial practice, with all the consequences.
      Mr. Tom King: At that point they can talk about anything they like and discuss the situation they face. The only time when they would be put at risk is if they started considering what action they might take in breach in an agreement.
      Mr. Mendelson: That intervention is of no value, because it will be up to the new

      913
      courts to determine whether the way in which the workers got together and conducted the interview with their employer constituted an offence under this definition. It would not be left to the hon. Gentleman, who will have nothing to do with it at that stage, to say what these people were doing or not doing. This has to be interpreted, which is why we should have more time for these matters in Committee and why it is absurd not to have a fair amount of time for each of these vital clauses.
      We now have a chance as legislators to ask for the Government's interpretation, but even that is not binding on the courts—only the text is. When the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Tom King) has more experience of these debates, he will realise that this is the vital stage of the debate, for which we need most time. What is the situation if this group or any other group of work people were to decide not to accept something, and then asked for a meeting with the employer and told him that they could not guarantee that, if he persisted in what they regarded as an irresponsible course, there would not be a very strong feeling, with all the consequences?
      As anyone knows who knows anything of industry, these interviews are common practice among normal human beings. This absurdly wide definition will put work people into great jeopardy. The Solicitor-General should justify this monstrous departure from custom and practice in British industry.
      Nothing that my hon. Friends have said is invalidated by some confusion which might have existed as to the legal provisions. Everything that they have said from their knowledge of industry, of the mines and the factories, is wholly valid, although the first part of the construction is narrow and the second part is wide.
      Mr. Eddie Griffiths: Would my hon. Friend not agree that most branch meetings and shop stewards will fall foul of this Clause? When a problem arises on the shop floor, the workers discuss it, see the manager, and report back that he will not budge because he is as reactionary as the Conservative Party, with a completely closed mind. The next logical step is to ask where they go from there,
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      and at that stage they would be in contravention of this Clause.
      Mr. Mendelson: I agree with my hon. Friend on the general definition in Clause 6. The industry which he knows best, the steel industry, for instance, is also likely to be in jeopardy under the narrower part of the Clause. In the steel industry there is a great deal of consultation with the unions on promotion, on the workers in the plants, their qualifications, and matters of that kind. It is certain that that will be in jeopardy under the general definition and under the narrower part of that Clause.
      Everything advanced by my hon. Friends in this important debate, whatever may have been the legal contusion in earlier parts, remains wholly valid because under the wide definition this kind of jeopardy will certainly arise
      8.30 p.m.
      Mr. J. D. Concannon (Mansfield): The Clause is particularly worrying to me because I used to work in an industry where there was more or less a pre-entry closed shop and an industrial union, to boot. I was a trade union official, albeit in a minor capacity. Part of my duties on behalf of the people I represented was to be what was termed "a pit inspector". People who know anything about the mining industry know that we have been covered by devices, laws, orders and agreements, all relating to safety, for well over 100 years. These have to be policed firmly. A lot of policing is done by union officials and members. As a pit inspector, that was my duty.
      I have called, organised and procured irregular industrial action. I have not financed it, but I have threatened to do so. Under the Bill, I should have been guilty of unfair industrial practices. I have prevented, reduced or otherwise interfered with the producition of goods, not for money, but for my members, to ensure that safety regulations were observed, or to deal with anything else which happened in the mining industry which was unsafe or unwarranted or could damage the health of the workers.
      Mr. Daniel Awdry (Chippenham): What is there in Clause 5 which deals with safety?
      Mr. Concannon: It is the definition of the pre-entry closed shop in Clause 5. To ensure that safety regulations are observed in the mining industry, it is more or less imperative to have a Pre-entry closed shop.
      When I joined the industry, it was not the trade union that wanted me to join the union. The management instructed me to do so. It was wise to do that, as anyone who has worked long enough in the industry would agree.
      Ministers referring to strikes always omit to mention the mining industry. It is no coincidence that it has been a pre-entry closed shop for 20 years. Under the Bill, how will these people be fixed when they carry out their normal duties and look after the safety of the men whom they represent? They are on call 24 hours a day and seven days a week at the behest of their members. If the management or anyone else refuses to take these recommendations into consideration, the only way to enforce the observance of safety precautions is to threaten a strike. These people, doing their job of saving life and limb, will be penalised under the Bill.
      Sir Edward Brown (Bath): It seems that the Opposition have misread the whole Clause. It says:
      "… to induce, or attempt to induce an employer, or a person acting on behalf of an employer, to do anything which, in accordance with section 5(2) of this Act, is or would be an unfair industrial practice…"
      In Clause 5(2), one finds that the definition of "unfair industrial practice" arises from Clause 5(1), where we establish the rights of workers to join or not to join a union. All that Clause 6 does is to define the protection and the right either to join or not to join a union.
      If some force is brought to bear upon an employer to prevent or deter a worker from his freedom to belong or not to belong to a union, that is "irregular industrial practice".
      The Opposition are introducing a red herring. It is clear that the Bill intends to confer rights upon the worker. However, I am sure that the Solicitor-General will clarify this matter.
      Mr. John Fraser: What hon Gentlemen opposite fail to appreciate is that Clause 5(2) is a definition Clause which runs throughout the Bill. Secondly, we
      916
      are changing the nature of industrial action——
      The Solicitor-General: Perhaps I might intervene to ensure that both sides of the Committee are clear about the central questions of fact. Clause 6(1) says that it shall be an unfair industrial practice to call or threaten a strike or irregular action short of a strike for certain purposes and only for those purposes. Clause 6(2) defines for the purposes of the entire Measure the meaning of "irregular industrial action". The two points open for discussion are whether it is legitimate to extend industrial action to irregular industrial action short of a strike, and whether it is legitimate to proscribe both when they are directed to a given purpose.
      Mr. Fraser: I am grateful for the Solicitor-General's assistance.
      As I was saying, we are changing the nature of industrial action, and the Committee is being forced to consider this matter in a very few minutes. That is little better than rule by Fascist decree.
      My third point is that the Solicitor-General has spent some time in the D.E.P. offices. Was the power workers' disruption "irregular industrial action"? Was the action of the airline pilots, when they went through their rigorous safety schedules and caused a good deal of disruption, "irregular industrial action"? Is careful checking, according to Statute, of safety regulations which causes disruption "irregular industrial action"? We would like an answer.
      The Solicitor-General: It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I intervene in the debate at this stage.
      Perhaps I might begin by dealing with the examples which the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. John Fraser) put to me, before coming to the more substantial parts of the debate.
      The Clause contains the two concepts, and it is right that they should be both considered. However, they both stand on this premise of principle that, from the point of view of the Government, my hon. Friends and many people outside the House, quite apart from a number of hon. Members opposite, whatever form industrial action takes it is a weapon which is formidable and is to be regarded

      917
      as a weapon of last and not of first resort. I do not wish to overstate it, but it can inflict damage on individuals, groups of individuals and society on a scale which is hard to justify. But we are balancing these matters all the way through.
      There is a difference between the two sides of the Committee. We believe that there are certain areas where industrial action goes beyond what can be justified. I do not want to be provocative, but I ought to point out that in "In Place of Strife" the phrase "coercive
      action" is regarded——
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: It was never a Bill.
      The Solicitor-General: I am sorry, but I wish to establish a certain community of ground before moving to——
      Mr. McNamara: We objected to that as well.
      The Solicitor-General: I am aware that certain hon. Gentlemen opposite disagreed with that——
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: It was never a Bill.
      The Solicitor-General: I am clear about that. I am aware that that White Paper was brought before the House by the right hon. Lady in March, 1969, and secured approval——
      Mr. Heffer: May I make a point on this?
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: On a point of order. We are under the guillotine. Two or three valuable minutes have been taken up with what was or was not in "In Place of Strife". We are not debating that. We are debating whether the Clause shall stand part.
      The Temporary Chairman (Sir Alfred Broughton): That is not a point of order.
      The Solicitor-General: I do not wish to stir up contention.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: That is what the hon. and learned Gentleman is doing.
      The Solicitor-General: I am sorry if hon. Gentlemen opposite react with such sensitivity.
      Mr. John Mendelson: It is a matter of the time.
      The Solicitor-General: If hon. Members allowed me to make my speech we should have advanced a good deal further.
      In that document which we scarcely dare mention in the Committee, with which the country is familiar, there were identified certain coercive actions that could be taken by way of industrial action, in respect of which it was legitimate, in the judgment of the right hon. Lady, for the community to intervene.
      Mr. Mendelson: Which is why we buried it.
      The Solicitor-General: Which is why a minority of the party opposite did not support it when it was debated. In contrast, our party, supported in some respects by the Liberal Party, suggest that there arc certain areas where industrial action, however defined, should be
      restrained unless the objective can be justified by fair and reasonable standards. That is the first, central proposition.
      The second proposition is that in certain cases irregular industrial action short of a strike can have the same effect, can be just as damaging and just as disproportionate to the objective, as full-scale industrial action. It is for that reason that we include that in the Clause. Irregular industrial action short of a strike becomes disqualified throughout the Bill by subsection (2) only if it is taking place in breach of the contract of employment of those concerned.
      The question of the power workers' dispute was raised. No more than anyone else can I advise without an analysis of the facts in great detail. If the proposition is that workers in that dispute did not break their contracts of employment, it was not irregular industrial action short of a strike. If that produces a situation somewhat less full of light than we should have liked, that may suggest that there was something wrong with the contracts of employment. The same applies to the airline industry. The hon. Member for Flint, East (Mr. Barry Jones) spoke about the teachers' rôle. Many of his examples were of activities that do not fall within the contracts of employment of teachers. The collection of dinner money, I believe, is still expressly proscribed by the Education Act. Participation in after-school and holiday activities, again, is outside the contract. In

      919
      other words, not all the things mentioned amount to breaches of contracts of employment.
      Mr. William Molloy (Ealing, North): The hon. and learned Gentleman ran through a list, and said that collecting money might not come under the contracts of teachers. Would he be good enough to explain the following situation involving doctors and nurses, particularly those in the National Health Service? They have to perform all sorts of duties, some of which are offensive to their religious beliefs and their conscience but which, under their contract, they must carry out. For example, some nurses feel that by their contract it is incumbent upon them to work on abortions, but they do not wish to do so. Under the Whitley Council system the nurses in every hospital have their spokesman, usually one of the staff nurses or a sister, and they can have meetings. The management of the hospital might say, "We know that you have strong feelings about being involved in abortions", or, "You are a West Indian, Indian, Pakistani or Catholic nurse"—[Interruption.] This is the real point of the Clause, that the nurse might have objections to doing something, and a reactionary person in charge of the hospital could use the Clause and damage the whole system. That sort of thing could spread very quickly. This is a very serious point, and I am sure that the Solicitor-General will take it seriously.
      [Mr. J. C. JENNINGS in the Chair]
      8.45 p.m.
      The Solicitor-General: I wonder whether the Committee can recall what point we had reached before the hon. Gentleman's intervention. I was giving illustrations of matters that could or could not amount to breaches of contracts of employment. The hon. Gentleman takes the question a stage further. The central point that I want to get across first is that to qualify at all an action must be in breach of the contracts of employment. Beyond that——
      Mr. McNamara Mr. McNamara rose——
      The Solicitor-General: I must be allowed to finish a point or two before giving way yet again.
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      We are not suggesting that irregular industrial action short of a strike is wrong. [Interruption.] Let me make the second part of the argument. We are saying that there are certain objectives in respect of which such action should not be pursued. The Clause applies only in that very limited way. A number of points put by hon. Members opposite were illustrations of objectives that would not be proscribed by the legislation. It was suggested that a union official calling, or seeking to call, industrial action on a safety matter would be in jeopardy. That is not so. The ordinary right of the ordinary union official in general terms to induce industrial action, or threaten it, over a matter of interest such as a safety question, about anything except those matters which are proscribed by the Bill, is unimpaired by the Bill. That is the central point, which applies to many of the examples given. To induce the present Post Office workers' strike in support of a legitimate dispute of interest is not unfair. Many of the examples were not realistic.
      The hon. Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Edwin Wainwright) gave a general and useful example of a day-to-day dispute in the factory or work place whether it was thought that the management was reacting intolerably or unreasonably. If the union official in that situation tells his branch meeting, "I am not getting anywhere. Let's take this further, and if I can't get what I want I shall tell the management that I shall call you out", he is not acting in pursuit of an unfair objective. It is not, therefore, proscribed by this legislation. This is the central limited concept and it is a fundamental importance.
      Mr. Edwin Wainwright: But it would not be the trade union official who would be taking action but a branch member, because the trade union official had failed to obtain from the management what was thought to be fair and just.
      The Solicitor-General: As the hon. Gentleman puts it, the point is that the trade union official reported ineffective action and a discussion took place, with the result that the branch members decided that they should do something further and ceased to work. This brings me back to the point raised by the hon.

      921
      Member for Salford, West, because this is the other central feature.
      The hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) said that we had taken no account of paragraph 854 of the Donovan Report, which said that, if a group of people collectively agreed to break their contracts of employment, that could, under the law as at present, amount to actionable conspiracy. We have taken account of it. In a later part of the Bill, such an agreement is expressly excluded from being actionable. Such an agreement by members of a union or workers together to quit work, to withdraw their labour, is in no sense obscured. The right to withdraw labour is not assailed here.
      The target is limited to industrial action, as prescribed, in pursuit of an unfair objective if it is induced in pursuit of that objective. The remedies proposed are against those who call or organise or provoke or procure industrial action, as defined, to secure the limited objective. Over the rest of the field, the right of individual workers to withdraw their labour and the right of trade unions to organise and take part in strikes are unimpaired. It is a limited but legitimate objective that we pursue here.
      I hope that I have set the perspective. In the context of the Clause, the area we are concerned with is the organisation of industrial action to bring pressure to bear on an employer to infringe a worker's rights as set out in the Clause. Of course it is linked with the concept of our previous debate on the purpose of Clause 5 and is something on which a difference on principle divides the Committee. It is a principle we have tried to assert and we believe that we have got the right balance. I invite the Committee at least to acknowledge that there is no monopoly of the liberal conscience in the Committee. I am as concerned for freedom of speech as any hon. Member.
      Mr. John Mendelson: At least we agree that, in reference to Clause 6, we are also referring to the whole of Clause 5, as now passed by the Committee. But does not the Solicitor-General realise that, by retaining the words which the Opposition were seeking to remove, the whole disagreement, not only between the two sides of the Committee but between the trade union movement and the country in the approach to the closed shop, the union
      922
      shop, is now brought into new and novel jeopardy by relating it to Clause 6(2), whereby workers do not have to go on strike to prevent the employer taking on non-union labour? All they have to do is have a discussion, meet their employer, engage in normal frank talk, as British workers are accustomed to doing, and they find themselves in jeopardy through the connection——
      The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Jennings): Order. Interventions should not be speeches. They should not be so long.
      Mr. Mendelson: I am just finishing, Mr. Jennings—through the connection between Clause 5 and Clause 6.
      The Solicitor-General: The hon. Gentleman is taking me back over ground I had already covered and I do not want to go back. But it is quite wrong to say that participation of a group of workpeople in a discussion with a view to meeting the employer is the sort of situation that comes within the provisions of Clause 6. This is why I want the Committee to understand the extent to which the case is being overstated and why it is important for me to make it clear.
      I come back to the point that it is the person who organises, and with that organisation threatens, the pursuit of this particular objective, and only that, who is here got at. I come back on that limited framework to the purpose of Clause 5. Here we do have a difference of principle between us. It would be futile to say that it was wrong for an employer to discriminate against someone because he declined to join a union, or coerce someone into membership against his will, and at the same time to leave it free to the union to act. It is for that reason that we arrived at this conclusion. There is a balance which we believe we have struck correctly, in the name of liberalism, in the belief that, as society is changing, so the values of which the hon. Member for Birmingham, All Saints (Mr. Brian Walden) spoke yesterday should change and the belief of union members in restraint in the exercise of industrial power at the expense of an individual's liberty should be given greater weight.
      It is wrong to suggest that all those who support solidarity and mass action are on the opposite side of the Committee

      923
      and all those who stand for individual freedom and care nothing for anything else are on this side of the Committee. Whether in the working class or the middle class of society, as the hon. Member for All Saints tried to divide it, we all share the desire to pursue both objectives, loyalty and solidarity when it is right and respect for the rights of the individual in the last resort when that is right.
      It is in pursuit of the right balance of those interests that we put before the Committee and the country this reasonable, fair and retrained attempt to check industrial action when it threatens to over-ride and crush the individual who, in the last resort, deserves to be saved.
      On that basis, I invite the Committee to endorse the Clause and allow it to stand part of the Bill.
      Mr. Rose: I do not think that the Solicitor-General can be allowed to escape from the perceptive clarity of my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) who divided this Clause into its essential parts. He cannot escape from this new definition, introducing an entirely new concept, so well described by many of my hon. Friends including my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) and Flint, East (Mr. Barry Jones), who referred to teachers who refused to undertake certain administrative duties. This applies throughout the Bill, in, for example, Clause 16(2).
      This is a wide-ranging definition which applies right across the board. The nub is the first limit applying to actions to further the closed shop. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has dodged the issue, because it does overturn Rookes v. Barnard, it goes in the opposite direction. He knows this and he knows that it is flying in the face of Donovan. He has not dealt with the vital matter which my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) dealt
      with, the matter of freedom of speech and opinion, the fact that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone said, an expression of view to a manager, a threat, would in itself be an offence under the Clause.
      This may be a spontaneous outburst of anger on the shop floor. How is the management to know when a man working with a machine makes a remark such as to procure others of his colleagues to come out on strike? There is only one way and that is by the spy on the factory floor, the man who goes to the boss and tells what has happened. It is perhaps too late now for the Solicitor-General to tell us about this, perhaps he will do so on Report.
      What happens when that someone is not a person working on the factory floor but a politician or a journalist? When my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) spoke at that Labour Party conference, although his speech did not have a bearing on a strike of this nature, it might have done and that is the point my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull was making. If his speech had referred to a strike of this nature, he would be guilty of an offence although he would not be the person working on the shop floor. Under this Clause the journalist or politician or the broadcaster on the B.B.C., may well be guilty of an offence.
      It is an example of bad drafting, a complete misunderstanding and rejection of freedom to organise, to speak and to act. There are two concepts with which this side of the Committee takes issue. First is the importation of a new concept of action short of a strike and second, the ending of freedom of speech on the factory floor. Therefore, I urge my hon. and right hon. Friends to join me in the Lobby and vote against the Clause.
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 297, Noes 262.

      Division No. 87.]

      AYES

      [9.0 p.m.

      Adley, Robert

      Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

      Berry, Hn. Anthony

      Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

      Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

      Biffen, John

      Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

      Balniel, Lord

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

      Batsford, Brian

      Blaker, Peter

      Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

      Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

      Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

      Astor, John

      Bell, Ronald

      Body, Richard

      Atkins, Humphrey

      Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

      Boscawen, Robert

      Awdry, Daniel

      Benyon, W.

      Bossom, Sir Clive

      Bowden, Andrew

      Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

      Monks, Mrs. Connie

      Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

      Grylls, Michael

      Monro, Hector

      Brain's, Barnard

      Gummer, Selwyn

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Bray, Ronald

      Gurden, Harold

      Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

      Brewis, John

      Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

      Brinton, Sir Tatton

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Mudd, David

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Hannam, John (Exeter)

      Murton, Oscar

      Bruce-Gardyne, J.

      Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

      Nabarro, Sir Gerald

      Bryan, Paul

      Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Neave, Ainey

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

      Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

      Nicholls, Sir Harmar

      Buck, Antony

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Normanton, Tom

      Bullus, Sir Eric

      Hastings, Stephen

      Nott, John

      Burden, F. A.

      Havers, Michael

      Onslow, Cranley

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

      Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

      Heseltine, Michael

      Osborn, John

      Carlisle, Mark

      Hicks, Robert

      Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

      Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Page, Graham (Crosby)

      Channon, Paul

      Hiley, Joseph

      Page, John (Harrow, W.)

      Chapman, Sydney

      Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

      Pardoe, John

      Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

      Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

      Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

      Chichester-Clark, R.

      Holland, Philip

      Peel, John

      Churchill, W. S.

      Holt, Miss Mary

      Percival, Ian

      Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Pike, Miss Mervyn

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Hornby, Richard

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Clegg, Waiter

      Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

      Pounder, Rafton

      Cockeram, Eric

      Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

      Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

      Cooke, Robert

      Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Coombs, Derek

      Hunt, John

      Proudfoot, Wilfred

      Cooper, A. E.

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

      Cordle, John

      Iremonger, T. L.

      Quennell, Miss J. M.

      Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      James, David

      Raison, Timothy

      Cormack, Patrick

      Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

      Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

      Costain, A. P.

      Jessel, Toby

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

      Critchley, Julian

      Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

      Redmond, Robert

      Crouch, David

      Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

      Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

      Crowder, F. P.

      Jopling, Michael

      Rees, Peter (Dover)

      Curran, Charles

      Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

      Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

      Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj-Gen. Jack

      Kilfedder, James

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

      Dean, Paul

      Kimball, Marcus

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

      King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Digby, Simon Wingfield

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Dixon, Piers

      Kinsey, J. R.

      Rost, Peter

      Dodds-Parker, Douglas

      Kirk, Peter

      Russell, Sir Ronald

      Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

      Knight, Mrs. Jill

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Drayson, G. B.

      Lambton, Antony

      Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

      du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Lane, David

      Shelton, William (Clapham)

      Eden, Sir John

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Simeons, Charles

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Elliot, Capt, Walter (Carshalton)

      Le Marchant Spencer

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Smith, Dudley (W' wick & mington)

      Emery, Peter

      Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

      Soref, Harold

      Eyre,Reginald

      Loveridge, John

      Speed, Keith

      Farr, John

      McAdden, Sir Stephen

      Spence, John

      Fell, Anthony

      MacArthur, Ian

      Sproat, Iain

      Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

      McCrindle, R. A.

      Stainton, Keith

      Fidler, Michael

      McLaren, Martin

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

      Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

      Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

      Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

      McMaster, Stanley

      Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

      Stokes, John

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      McNair-Wilson, Michael

      Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

      Fortescue, Tim

      McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

      Sutcliffe, John

      Foster, Sir John

      Maddan, Martin

      Tapsell, Peter

      Fowler, Norman

      Madel, David

      Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

      Fox, Marcus

      Maginnis, John E.

      Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

      Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

      Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

      Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

      Fry, Peter

      Marten, Neil

      Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

      Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

      Mather, Carol

      Tebbit, Norman

      Gardner, Edward

      Maude, Angus

      Temple, John M.

      Gibson-Watt, David

      Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

      Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

      Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

      Mawby, Ray

      Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

      Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

      Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

      Glyn, Dr. Alan

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

      Goodhart, Philip

      Mills, Peter (Torrington)

      Tilney, John

      Goodhew, Victor

      Mills, Stratton, (Belfast, N.)

      Trafford, Dr. Anthony

      Gorst, John

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Trew, Peter

      Gower, Raymond

      Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

      Gray, Hamish

      Moate, Roger

      Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

      Green, Alan

      Molyneaux, James

      Vickers, Dame Joan

      Grieve, Percy

      Money, Ernle D.

      Waddington, David

      926

      927

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Woodnutt, Mark

      Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

      White, Roger (Gravesend)

      Worsley, Marcus

      Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

      Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

      Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

      Wall, Patrick

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Younger, Hn. George

      Walters, Dennis

      Wilkinson, John

      Ward, Dame Irene

      Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Warren, Kenneth

      Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Mr. Jasper More and

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

      Mr. Paul Hawkins.

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      English, Michael

      Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

      Albu, Austen

      Evans, Fred

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

      Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

      Fernyhough, E.

      Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

      Allen, Scholefield

      Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

      McBride, Neil

      Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      McElhone, Frank

      Ashley, Jack

      Foley, Maurice

      McGuire, Michael

      Ashton, Joe

      Foot, Michael

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Atkinson, Norman

      Ford, Ben

      Mackie, John

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Forrester, John

      Maclennan, Robert

      Barnes, Michael

      Fraser, John (Norwood)

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

      Barnett, Joel

      Freeson, Reginald

      McNamara, J. Kevin

      Beaney, Alan

      Galpern, Sir Myer

      MacPherson, Malcolm

      Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

      Garrett, W. E.

      Mahon, Siman (Bootle)

      Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

      Gilbert, Dr. John

      Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Ginsburg, David

      Marks, Kenneth

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Golding, John

      Marquand, David

      Boardman, H. (Leigh)

      Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

      Mason Rt. Hn. Roy

      Booth, Albert

      Gourlay, Harry

      Meacher, Michael

      Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

      Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

      Mendelson, John

      Bradley, Tom

      Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

      Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

      Millan, Bruce

      Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Miller, Dr. M. S.

      Brown, Ronald (Shoredith & F'bury)

      Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

      Milne, Edward (Blyth)

      Buchan, Norman

      Hamling, William

      Molloy, William

      Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

      Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

      Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

      Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

      Hardy, Peter

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

      Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

      Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

      Cant, R. B.

      Hattersley, Roy

      Moyle, Roland

      Carmichael, Neil

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

      Hilton, W. S.

      Murray, Ronald King

      Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

      Horam, John

      Ogden, Eric

      Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

      Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Clark, David (Colne Valley)

      Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

      O'Malley, Brian

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

      Huckfield, Leslie

      Orbach, Maurice

      Cohen, Stanley

      Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

      Orme, Stanley

      Coleman, Donald

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Oswald, Thomas

      Concannon, J. D.

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

      Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Conlan, Bernard

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Padley, Walter

      Corbet, Mrs. Freda

      Hunter, Adam

      Paget, R. T.

      Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

      Irvine,Rt.Hn.Sir Arthur(Edge Hill)

      Palmer, Arthur

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Janner, Greville

      Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

      Cronin, John

      Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Parker, John (Dagenham)

      Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

      Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

      Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Dalyell, Tam

      John, Brynmor

      Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

      Darling, Rt. Hn. George

      Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

      Pendry, Tom

      Davidson, Arthur

      Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

      Pentland, Norman

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

      Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

      Perry, Ernest G.

      Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

      Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

      Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Prescott, John

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

      Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn(W. Ham, S.)

      Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

      Deakins, Eric

      Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

      Price, William (Rugby)

      de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

      Kelley, Richard

      Rankin, John

      Delargy, H. J.

      Kerr, Russell

      Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

      Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

      Kinnock, Neil

      Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

      Dempsey, James

      Lambie, David

      Rhodes, Geoffrey

      Doig, Peter

      Lamond, James

      Richard, Ivor

      Dormand, J. D.

      Latham, Arthur

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

      Lawson, George

      Roberts,Rt.Hn.Gororrwy(Caernarvon)

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Driberg, Tom

      Lee, Rt. Hn, Frederick

      Roderick, Gaerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Leonard, Dick

      Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Dunn, James A.

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Roper, John

      Dunnett, Jack

      Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

      Rose, Paul B.

      Eadie, Alex

      Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

      Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

      Edelman, Maurice

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

      Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

      Lipton, Marcus

      Shorn, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

      Edwards, William (Merioneth)

      Lomas, Kenneth

      Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

      Ellis, Tom

      Loughlin, Charles

      Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

      928

      929

      Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

      Swain, Thomas

      Weitzman, David

      Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

      Taverne, Dick

      Wellbeloved, James

      Sillars, James

      Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

      Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

      Silverman, Julius

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Small, William

      Tinn, James

      Whitlock, William

      Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

      Tomney, Frank

      Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Spearing, Nigel

      Torney, Tom

      Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Tuck, Raphael

      Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

      Stallard, A. W.

      Urwin, T. W.

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

      Varley, Eric G.

      Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

      Stoddart, David (Swindon)

      Wainwright, Edwin

      Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

      Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

      Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

      Strang, Gavin

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

      Wallace, George

      Mr. Joseph Harper and

      Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

      Watkins, David

      Mr. Alan Fitch.

      Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

      Clause 7

        PRE-ENTRY CLOSED SHOP AGREEMENTS TO BE VOID
        The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, Amendment No. 370, in page 5, line 35, leave out 'as employees persons' and insert 'workers'.
        The Temporary Chairman (Mr. J. C. Jennings): It might be for the convenience of the Committee to take Government Amendments Nos. 371 and 372 at the same time. Then, when the Question is put at the end of the debate, it would also save time if I were allowed to put the three Amendments together.
        The Solicitor-General: I believe that it would be for the convenience of the Committee to take these Amendments together since they all achieve exactly the same effect as the three Amendments which the Committee has already accepted to Clause 5. The effect is to substitute "workers" for "employees" in three places in Clause 7 so as to make the provisions of Clause 7 march in line with those of Clause 5. Since the Committee has already accepted the Amendments in relation to Clause 5, I have no doubt that it will agree to do so in respect of Clause 7, too.
        Amendment agreed to.
        Further Amendments made: No. 371, in page 5, line 37, leave out 'as employees persons' and insert 'workers'.
        No. 372, in page 6, line 2, leave out 'as employees persons' and insert 'workers'.—[The Solicitor-General.]
        Question proposed, That the Clause as amended, stand part of the Bill.
        9.15 p.m.
        Mr. Heffer: I do not apologise to the House for being brief on this Clause, but we feel that it is important to make clear that the Opposition are totally opposed to it since it makes void the pre-entry closed shop. We are here talking about some 750,000 workers who are affected, as was made clear in the Donovan Report; and I should make it clear that I am talking about the pre-entry closed shop and not about the closed shop as such. Although out of some eleven million trade unionists only 750,000 are affected, the Government have decided, for reasons which become clear as we go on, to make void this principle.
        Yesterday the right hon. Gentleman developed the point about industrial democracy. Closed shops, including pre-entry closed shops, were arrived at precisely because of the exercise of industrial democracy by workers in industry. I should like to tell the right hon. Gentleman how a closed shop comes into existence. I have had personal experience. Workers in a furniture factory at which I was employed discovered that they had an overwhelming majority—99·9 per cent.—belonging to their appropriate trade union. On that basis they felt that they could not in future continue to work alongside non-unionists, not because they had any conscience clauses but because these other people were not concerned with their consciences. In the circumstances they felt that they ought to ask for and negotiate a closed shop with the management. They did. It came about through the exercise of genuine industrial democracy, because the majority felt that they ought to ask the management to agree to the closed shop principle.

        931
        This was accepted by the management, because it also involved the acceptance of professional qualifications, if one can call the trade of carpenter and joiner a profession. The management realised that by having a member of the Amalgamated Society of Woodworkers—a man could not be a member of that union unless he had the necessary qualifications laid down in the rules—it was getting a fully qualified worker.
        It is no different from the lawyers who decide to have a closed shop on the basis of qualifications. If the right hon. Gentleman or one of his hon. Friends can say, as was said earlier, that he recognises that for lawyers and doctors there would have to be some definite exemption, that can equally be said for other workers in that kind of situation. One of my hon. Friends, who I hope will be called to speak, because he has great understanding and knowledge of the mining industry, will be able to tell us about the miners.
        I make it absolutely clear that we are opposed to the Clause for the reasons I have expressed. But I want to make one or two further points. Some unions—this point has been made time and again —will, or could, go out of existence if the closed shop principle is not accepted. Equity, the National Union of Seamen, and many other unions are in that situation.
        The right hon. Gentleman has promised to look at the situation. If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to look at the situation, in the meantime he ought to be prepared to take back the Clause completely and perhaps we could, at least on this issue if on no other, reach some kind of understanding. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman could enter into proper consultations and negotiations with the Trades Union Congress. It would be a change from the kind of situation we have had so far.
        My last point concerns the second part of the Clause which, again, deals with unfair industrial practices. Throughout the Bill, not just the previous Clause, we come up against the whole question of unfair industrial practices. The fact is that anybody organising, procuring or financing a strike, or even threatening a strike, can be carrying out an unfair industrial practice, and in this case it would be in relation to the pre-entry closed shop.
        932
        But it goes further. It means that anyone who creates a go-slow, or an overtime ban, or takes any other action short of a strike, is carrying out an unfair industrial practice. Does it mean that if all the lads decide to sit down in the middle of the shop floor for one hour to express their view about this matter they are carrying out an unfair industrial practice?
        The right hon. Gentleman said earlier that it was the organisers who would be involved. How does one organise anything? Who are the organisers at a meeting of workers? They are all organising. Or is it to be the shop steward, or the one person who happens to suggest that there should be a form of action? I do not want to develop this, because it was dealt with in the previous debate, but here is another good example of the difficulties and the problems that will arise, and it shows clearly the basic underlying attitude of the Government to the trade unions, to shop stewards and to workers.
        Why are the Government bringing in this provision against the pre-entry closed shop? They argue that the liberty of the individual is at stake. Everybody knows that in this country and elsewhere the liberty of the individual is very limited, indeed. Even in the most democratic country it is ridiculous to talk about the liberty of the individual in that sense. What is involved here is not the liberty of the individual. What we are concerned with here is a direct attempt to weaken the trade union movement. It is that which lies behind the whole philosophical attitude—and it is a philosophical attitude—of the Government, because if this provision were intended to represent a practical attitude to industrial relations it would not be in the Bill, because it simply would not be worth it. This provision has been brought in to deal with three-quarters of a million workers, and the only reason for its inclusion in the Bill is that the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends wish, in one way or another, to weaken, and in some cases to destroy, the trade union movement.
        Mr. R. Carr: The charge made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) is utter nonsense. It is completely untrue, and nobody knows it in

        933
        his heart better than the hon. Gentleman does himself.
        The pre-entry closed shop, which is what we are talking about, is not, as a matter of fact, all that widely practised throughout industry.
        Mrs. Barbara Castle (Blackburn): My hon. Friend said that it affected three-quarters of a million workers.
        Mr. Carr: Yes, out of 20 million. I said that it was not all that widely practised. It is certainly not all that unanimously supported by trade union leaders throughout the union movement.
        There is a much closer balance of argument about a post-entry closed shop. We had that yesterday, and I admitted that it was not black and white, that there were arguments on both sides, and that it was a delicate balance to strike. I think the Committee found that.
        Mr. Swain Mr. Swain rose——
        Mr. Carr: No. I want to get on.
        The pre-entry closed shop is something quite different. It can be, and we all know from our experience on occasion has been, used unduly to preclude candidates for particular sorts of employment. I do not want to aggravate the proceedings this evening by mentioning any particular industries, but if hon. Members are honest with themselves they will admit that there are some industries in which the pre-entry closed shop operates, where access to that profession or trade is limited, sometimes even on family grounds, and this cannot be right. The pre-entry closed shop is, in effect, a form of unilateral control by a union over the rights of individuals to seek employment for which they are qualified. I do not believe that it is necessary, or even begins to be necessary, to protect the rights of the majority.
        The argument about post-entry closed shops is much more difficult and much more finely balanced. The arguments in favour of the pre-entry closed shop are virtually zero in terms, in 1970, of there being at all necessary to protect the rights of the majority, the security of the trade union or any other reasonable industrial objective. If there is one part in the Bill——
        Mr. Loughlin Mr. Loughlin rose——
        Mr. Carr: I am afraid that 1 cannot give way. We have to move on. The hon. Gentleman can make his speech in a moment. If there is one part in the Bill——
        Mr. Loughlin: I wanted to help.
        The Temporary Chairman (Mr. J. C. Jennings): Order. Hon. Members should let the debate go on without interruption. The hon. Member will get his chance if he rises later.
        Mr. Carr: —which we believe is absolutely—
        Mr. Loughlin: I wanted to expedite business.
        The Temporary Chairman: Order. I said that the hon. Gentleman will get his chance if he rises at the appropriate time. There is no need to waste time like this.
        Mr. Loughlin: I am very sorry, Mr. Jennings. I merely said that I wanted to help expedite business.
        The Temporary Chairman: I am very glad of that. I am grateful.
        Mr. Carr: As I said the other night, one cannot get it right. If one gives way and lengthens one's speech, one is attacked for wasting time; if one does not give way, one suffers interruptions like that.
        We are certain that the pre-entry closed shop is not necessary for union security or any other reasonable purpose. We believe that it is unnecessarily illiberal, in that it can keep from employment people with a perfect right to it.
        As to the question of qualifications of entry, there is nothing in the Bill to prevent the unions making an agreement with employers about conditions of entry based on skill or qualifications, provided that union membership is not a restriction on the original entry to employment. We believe that that is a perfectly proper provision, and I ask the Committee to approve the Clause.
        Mr. E. Fernyhough (Jarrow): I listened carefully to what the Secretary of State said——
        Mr. Loughlin: Absolute rubbish.
        Mr. Fernyhough: —and I should like him to clear my mind about what will happen with regard to the Co-operative movement. In this movement, which is owned by the rank-and-file members, the members may decide at a quarterly meeting that it is desirable that every man who works for the society should be a member of a union. Eventually a resolution is minuted to this effect, that the movement itself—we should remember that the bosses are the consumers, the ordinary members of the movement—has decided that every employee should be a member of the movement. Not the union, but the people who own the establishment, the ten million rank-and-file consumers, decide this.
        This is pre-entry, because many of the people who come have never been in a union. When they seek that employment the society says that there are two rules with which they must comply. The first is that every employee must belong to the superannuation scheme. Perhaps hon. Gentlemen opposite consider it an infringement of personal liberty to compel a man who wants to stand on his own feet to join a superannuation scheme. The Co-operative movement also tells an applicant—remember that it is the employers saying this on behalf of the shareholders; they are all shareholders —that he or she must join a trade union.
        9.30 p.m.
        The distributive trade is one of the worst-paid sections of British industry and commerce. Gradually, because of the effort of the Co-operative movement and, for example, U.S.D.A.W., better conditions and pay have been secured, and we want to be sure that this improvement, which has been going on for half a century or more, will be allowed to continue by the Co-operative movement being permitted to maintain the principle of obliging its employees to belong to a union and to join the superannuation scheme.
        Is there anything wrong in an applicant for a job being told, "Our shareholders, ordinary men and women, think that every man and woman should belong to a trade union and subscribe to a superannuation scheme"? Why should not an applicant observe those conditions? Because of the efforts of the Co-operative movement, some sections of private employment are following suit, though it is in
        936
        the distributive trade that abominable wages are still being paid by many employers.
        My simple question is whether the Cooperative movement will have freedom to observe the principles which I have outlined, remembering that it has observed them without strikes for half a century for its 400,000 employees.
        Mr. R. Carr: The quick answer to the hon. Gentleman's question is that the Co-operative movement or any other employer will be able to make an agency shop where union membership is a condition of employment or, failing that, there will be the payment of an agency fee or, failing that, if there is a conscientious objection, there will be a payment to charity. However, it would not be able to insist on a particular employee being a member of a particular union when applying for a job.
        Mr. Fernyhough: I made it clear that the movement does not say that he must be a memeber of a union when he applies for a job. The applicant is told that he may have a job if he obeys the conditions which I mentioned. Will the movement be allowed to apply those two conditions once the Bill becomes law?
        Mr. Carr: We discussed this yesterday. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] A post-entry closed shop in the old-fashioned sense will not be in order, but an agency shop will be, and in that case it will be a condition of employment to belong to a union or to pay an agency fee to the union. In other words, free riders will be abolished.
        The Temporary Chairman: Mr. Loughlin. I am keeping my promise to the hon. Gentleman.
        Mr. Loughlin: I appreciate the explanation given by the Secretary of State. I and my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) are associated with the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers.
        We have a situation in which a cooperative society is democratically controlled. Its shareholders instruct the board of management, by rule or by minutes, that the employees of the society, in addition to being members of the superannuation scheme, shall be members of the trade union. That is all right. But

        937
        one can have the situation where a very small minority of workers in a cooperative society, who may be at some time disguntled over an issue, can frustrate a large number of the employees, plus the intention of all shareholders of the society, by saying that they do not want an agency shop.
        I appreciate the points of view expressed by the Secretary of State in his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow. But I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider that one could have in certain circumstances a disgruntled minority which could frustrate not only the trade union members or employees of the society but all the shareholders. The right hon. Gentleman will recognise that a co-operative society's shareholders may number thousands. Surely it is not the Government's intention to frustrate the majority of those people. The right hon. Gentleman has talked about——
        The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Jennings): Order. There are so many sub-committee meetings taking place on the two Front Benches that I cannot hear the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin).
        Mr. Loughlin: I never bother about the sub-committee meetings, Mr. Jennings, because you and I have had to put up with them for a long time. In the context of this legislation, I ask the Secretary of State to consider whether it is his intention to frustrate the majority when he speaks about safeguarding the minority.
        Mr. R. Carr: Of course it is not. In the Bill we are not talking about the interests of shareholders, whether they be co-operative shareholders or shareholders in a limited liability company. We are talking about the position of employees. As for employees, the wishes of the majority could not be frustrated. As long as the majority want an agency shop they could have one.
        Mr. Emlyn Hooson (Montgomery): I agree with the right hon. Gentleman in general, because the purpose of the Bill is to maintain a balance, and a balance cannot be as general as that; but there may be certain occupations where the rights of the individual have to be balanced against those of the majority and the balance may not, in each occupation, work out exactly the same.
        938
        A formidable case has been made on behalf of Equity. The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) made a formidable case for the seamen yesterday. The Secretary of State will be looking into those matters. Clause 7 contains a general provision. Would it not be much wiser to have some provision in Clause 7 which allows certain agreements to be exempted at some time in the future? It may be that the agreements to be exempted will not come before the House at the present time. It may be that the Minister will not be able to consider them. It may be that, in two or three years, certain agreements are made which should be exempted by Resolution of the House. As a matter of equity, should not there be a provision in the Bill which allows the Minister in future, by a Resolution of the House, to consider unusual occupations where a pre-entry closed shop may be necessary?
        Mr. Laurie Pavitt (Willesden, West): The Clause refers distinctly to
        "…any trade union or other organisation of workers".
        As the Secretary of State knows, no hospital will employ a doctor who is not a member of the Medical Defence Union, which is an organisation formed to protect doctors.
        Does the Clause mean that a hospital which refuses to employ a doctor who is not a member of that body will be in breach of this legislation?
        The Solicitor-General: Perhaps I might answer that point straight away. The Medical Defence Union and the Medical Protection Society are not organisations for the regulation of relations between employees and employers. They are organisations designed to provide insurance in respect of profession negligence and, therefore, would not qualify as organisations of workers within the Bill. They are a different kind of animal from a trade union, an organisation of workers or a professional society. They have a limited purpose and do not undertake the regulation of relations between employees and employers.
        Mr. Robert Edwards (Bilston): The issues raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) and Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough)

        939
        have made nonsense of the Clause. They have dealt with the pre-entry closed shop in the Co-operative movement where it has been decided that those working for a society shall be members of a trade union.
        How can the Clause prevent the operation of that principle? All that will happen is that those who are unwilling to join the appropriate trade union will not be accepted for employment. No law can prevent that.
        The pre-entry closed shop does not cover the minority of workpeople, as the right hon. Gentleman seems to suggest. It covers nearly 3 million workers. In the last month, my own union has signed two agreements based on the pre-entry closed shop. A condition of employment in two drug firms is that staff shall be members of the Chemical Workers' Union. The suggestion came from the employers, because they want reasonable negotiations in their factories.
        Those who work in the factories with which the right hon. Gentleman has been associated are members of my trade union. The right hon. Gentleman knows that the whole basis of decent agreements in his establishments has been the existence of 100 per cent. trade unionism. Over the last year or so, the tendency in British industry has been to make membership of a trade union a condition of employment, not because it was thought to be a restriction on the rights of individuals, but because of the development of superannuation schemes which can be viable only if all the employees in a factory contribute to them. Consequently, they have been compelled to agree to pre-entry membership of a union as part of the agreement on the superannuation scheme.
        The Government can carry the Clause, but it will not operate. It makes nonsense of the law to suggest that Clauses like this can be operated when the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, based on his own experience, that they will not operate.
        Mr. Bert Oram (East Ham, South): We have had contributions from two of my hon. Friends with long experience in the organisation of shop workers. I look at the problem not so much from their point of view but from the point of view
        940
        of the members of co-operative societies, and particularly as a member of a co-operative society board. In many societies there is not just an agreement on union membership as a condition of employment but it is written into the society's rules. The rules are approved by the Registrar, and our society is registered under the Industrial and Providence Societies Acts. If the Clause becomes law, will all co-operative societies with that provision in their rules have to change their rules?
        Mr. R. Carr: I think that the answer to that must be "Yes". Without looking at the rules, of course, I cannot be quite sure. What we are saying in the Clause is that it is not right to make it a condition that before a person can be engaged he must be a member of a particular union. That is what we mean by a pre-entry closed shop.
        I do not think that the hon. Member for Bilston (Mr. Robert Edwards) has got the position right. He referred to a company with which I used to be associated. It is true that in one section of the company all the workers are, I think, members of his union, but unless something has changed in the past month or two they do not have to be. Many of them may have been members as a matter of course, but it was not a condition of application for employment in that section of the company that they had to be members of the union. If they were not members already, they became members on joining, but that is post-entry, not pre-entry.
        [Miss HARVIE ANDERSON in the Chair]
        9.45 p.m.
        Mr. Loughlin: We must push the Secretary of State on this matter, because it is vital to our union. He need not have a copy of the rules of a co-operative society. There are hundreds of societies that clearly lay down as a condition of employment that a person applying for a job shall, if he is appointed, be a member of his appropriate trade union. It might be U.S.D.A.W., the Bakers' Union, the Transport and General Workers' Union, or any of a number.
        The Government are arguing in the whole context of the Bill that they are defending freedom. I do not know

        941
        whether the right hon. Gentleman understands what goes on. In the Co-operative movement there is complete democratic control by the shareholders, with quarterly or annual meetings, when a substantial number of those who control the society may be present. Those who own the organisation decide the conditions of employment of the work people.
        I know that the Secretary of State is not interested in the Co-operative movement. He is not interested in U.S.D.A W and I do not think that he is very much interested in the Transport and General Workers' Union. But I plead with him to listen for a minute, because it is not in the interests of the British people to claim that he is talking about freedom of the individual and to refuse to allow a democratically-controlled organisation to determine the conditions of employment of its employees.
        Mr. Rees-Davies: Not if it is totally undemocratic. If he denies the opportunity of the individual to apply for his job without having to be a member of a union, the hon. Gentleman denies the very essence of the point he is making.
        Mr. Loughlin: I know how good a democrat the hon. Gentleman is. I am a member of the board of management of a co-operative society—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I was giving an illustration. I am not a member of the board. I am only a member of a co-operative society. I have about £2 of shares, and I trade with the Co-operative movement. [Interruption.]
        Mr. Orme: This is a serious matter.
        Mr. Loughlin: Comics are all right in this Chamber at times, but I think that the hon. Gentleman should go back in the bar.
        Mr. Kinsey: To whom is the hon. Gentleman referring.
        Mr. Loughlin: I am talking about the hon. Member whom the cap fits. We are dealing with the co-operative movement and a union which has 350,000 members. Other unions are involved. [Interruption.] If the sum total of the interest of hon. Members opposite is reflected in their conduct in the last five minutes, it is indicative of their attitude to the trade union movement.
        Mr. David James: On a point of order, Miss Harvie Anderson. Might it not be happier for us all if we did not refer to conduct previously in relation to the Bill?
        The Deputy Chairman (Miss Harvie Anderson): That is not a point of order.
        Mr. Loughlin: If the hon. Gentleman will explain himself I will deal with him. If he is incapable of explaining himself, I cannot deal with him.
        Many co-operative societies determine by democratic process that a person shall be a member of a trade union. The Secretary of State says that this will not be possible under the Bill. What does he want my union to do? This is the important aspect of the position. Does he want my union to involve itself in a number of disputes in consequence of the Bill with a number of co-operative societies, although they are willing to allow full membership of the union as a condition of employment? Is this what it will be driven to? This is something which hon. Members opposite do not understand. Surely they do not think for one moment that my union will be prepared to face a situation in which the Government will destroy it. Does anyone imagine that U.S.D.A.W. will sit back and be destroyed by the Secretary of State?
        Mr. Selwyn Gummer (Lewisham, West): I am seeking the hon. Gentleman's help. Why would this destroy the union? Surely as it is an excellent union, it will go on attracting members because of the job it does on behalf of its members.
        Mr. Loughlin: Do not let anyone kid himself about this. The Government say that there cannot be a pre-entry closed shop, that one cannot have a condition of employment. I know some of those libertarians who stand up for the liberty of the individual but whose real concern is to save the 1s. 2d. a week membership payment. The right hon. Gentleman should examine the possibility of bringing forward on Report an Amendment to allow a pre-entry closed shop where there is the appropriate agreement between the employers and the trade union movement.
        Mrs. Doris Fisher (Birmingham, Lady-wood): The co-operative societies have to make their rules under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act and therefore

        943
        their rules are registered already under that Act of Parliament. Does the reply given by the right hon. Gentleman mean that the Act will have to be amended following the passage of this Bill?
        Mr. Pavitt: I seek to pursue the same point as that made by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mrs. Fisher). I was amazed by the answer which the right hon. Gentleman gave to my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Oram) because the implication is that we shall have to call some 700 special general meetings in order to change rules, which will then have to be approved by the Registrar of Friendly Societies. The London Co-operative Society, of which I am a member, has one-and-a-half million members and between 5,000 and 6,000 attend half-yearly meetings. Such propositions have to be put to democratic meetings of members.
        What happens if, when amendment of rules is put before the members of a co-operative society, for subsequent approval by the Registrar, they turn it down? Is it not the case that they will be unable to turn such an amendment down because they will be pre-empted to alter the rules under the provisions of the Bill? I remind the right hon. Gentleman that, under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, the co-operative societies have operated for 75 years under model rules accepted by the Registrar.
        10.0 p.m.
        Mr. R. Carr: If I may quickly answer that point, if the law of the land changes, then rules sometimes have to be changed. Supposing a limited liability company or, indeed, some other new co-operative society, were to be formed and were to make it a rule that no employee could be a member of a union. The hon. Member would be the first to say that that rule should be changed.
        Mr. Walter Padley (Ogmore): There is a real problem here. There is a contractual relationship between the co-operative societies—and other employers —and their employees. This Clause would undermine the financial stability of the superannuation schemes. How can this Bill undo the Industrial and Provident Societies Act? No reply has
        944
        been given, and I ask the Solicitor-General to tell us, because the right hon. Gentleman obviously does not know the answer.
        Mr. Loughlin: Will the Solicitor-General reply to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley)? Perhaps the Secretary of State will give some consideration to a very large trade union. He seems to be ignoring completely the whole of the Co-operative movement. Is he so contemptuous that he can afford to sit back and say nothing? Is this his attitude? Is he so arrogant as to imagine that he can ignore the trade union movement and the Co-operative movement? Will the Solicitor-General address himself to the question put by my hon. Friend and will the Secretary of State deal with the issue which has been raised?
        Question put and agreed to.
        Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

      Clause 8

        APPROPRIATE CONTRIBUTIONS TO TRADE UNION IN LIEU OF MEMBERSHIP
        The following Amendment stood upon the Order Paper: No. 101, in page 7, line 22, leave out 'one month' and insert 'two weeks'.
        The Deputy Chairman (Miss Harvie Anderson): Mr. Archer, to move Amendment No. 101.
        Mr. Peter Archer (Rowley Regis and Tipton): I set down Amendment No. 101 because I thought that it was one of a number of points which required discussion. I thought that even an industrial lawyer had some qualifications to make a contribution to the discussions in Committee. Unhappily, we on this side of the Committee are now in the frustrating position of having to decide which of the many imperfections in the Bill are more intolerable than the others and to confine ourselves to them.
        Lest it be thought that by our silence we are endorsing the Bill and its imperfections, I want to place on record, when in due course the other imperfections

        945
        manifest themselves, as inevitably they must if the Bill becomes law, and we are asked why the industrial lawyers did not point them out in Committee, that our answer is that we remained silent because we were silenced. Regretfully, Mr. Deputy Chairman, I refrain from moving my Amendment.
        Mr. David James: I beg to move Amendment No. 534, in page 7, line 27, after 'order', insert:
        'or as seamen in a sea-going ship registered in the United Kingdom'.
        The Deputy Chairman: It would be for the convenience of the Committee to discuss at the same time Amendment No. 535, in
        Clause 11, page 9, line 40, at end add:
        (4) In this section 'employer' includes an organisation of employers of merchant seamen.
        Mr. James: These Amendments relate to shipping. I take up part of the speech made by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) yesterday, when he said, quite rightly, that we are different. By that he meant the shipping industry. The hon. Gentleman and myself have something in common because we have both served at sea for periods of time. I do not think that either of us is a shipowner, unless we include the 14-foot dinghy that I owned before the war, but we are both interested in the future of sailors.
        Amendment No. 534 refers to Clause 8 which deals with the appropriate contribution to a trade union in lieu of membership. The Explanatory Memorandum explains that the Clause empowers the Secretary of State to prescribe shorter periods in respect of workers in the construction industry. It is our contention that the shipping industry is in exactly the same position as the construction industry in this respect, and that unless seamen can be eligible on the basis of shorter voyages there will be that which the right hon. Lady would so resent—free riders—who would incur the resentment of their fellow crew members.
        Amendment No. 535 jogs forward to Clause 11. My right hon. Friend has down an Amendment to Clause 11 which refers to "employers" in the plural. Sailors make a voyage with one company, come home on leave and then make a voyage with another company, and it is therefore inappropriate to envisage a par-
        946
        ticular shipowner as the employer. One needs to envisage the Federation of Shipowners vis-é-vis the pool. It is uncertain whether the reference to "employers" means a group of employers or a federation of employers. I hope that my hon. and learned Friend will enlighten me on this and say whether there is a legal as opposed to a semantic distinction between these concepts.
        The Amendment is essential, first, because sailors enjoy moving from company to company and varying their voyages. Secondly, they are represented by a common pool of supply which is extremely important to the industry. Thirdly, the pool of supply enables them to enjoy maximum employment and at the same time enables the employers to enjoy the maximum use of labour. In this connection the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East said that the union also stands for stable employment in an industry where casual labour is almost essential to keep the industry going. Although I do not have the honour of being a member of his union, my proposal might well suit the book of his union.
        A large number of seamen are paid on a general service contract, which in itself leads to the full manning of ships. In short, there would be chaos if firms differed in their practice over the operation of an agency shop agreement. This decision must be reached by the Shipping Federation as a whole.
        I have, I hope, been practical and not polemical, and I have not wasted the time of the Committee. My object is to bring this proposal to the attention of Ministers. I hope the fact that I have spoken for three minutes and not for 30 minutes will not weaken but rather strengthen my case, which is so important for the shipping industry.
        Mr. John Prescott (Kingston upon Hull, East): I shall speak only for a limited time in view of the pressing desire on these benches to get to the important Clauses concerned with the agency shop. It has been difficult for us on this side of the Committee to listen to the debate on the closed shop and not to intervene. This has been due to the exercise of the guillotine and not because of the lack of argument on this side of the Committee.

        947
        Whilst we are trying to argue the case for an exemption we must bear in mind that the Amendments are an attempt to deal with an impossible situation. In dealing with the destruction of trade unions under the Bill, it is tempting to say that we hope this will not happen and to move Amendments to help prevent it happening, but these Amendments do not help a great deal. The Clause exempts an employee for one month or three months, but even if the period were one week and two weeks a ship may still have sailed and we should be left with the same problem. The Clause also encourages the development of non-trade unionism by its classification of two categories of people who contribute to the union. Even if the periods were altered, the maintenance of the trade union structure would still be seriously threatened.
        Amendment No. 535 refers to an organisation of employers, such as the Shipping Federation. As I explained yesterday, there are 400 companies. These organisations will not be trade unions as defined in the Bill but organisations which will not have to comply with the regulations and prohibitions contained in the Bill. In America, in the shipping industry, companies have developed their own trade unions, as they will be able to do under the Bill. There is in this country one organised set of employers, the Shipping Federation, but that is maintained only because the union holds the sanction of the closed shop. That is why there is one collective body of employers. It is likely that there will be a fragmentation and that those who do not want trade union recognition will develop through organisations of this kind.
        Although the Amendment is moved with the best intentions, it is an attempt to deal with an impossible situation created by the Bill.
        10.15 p.m.
        The Solicitor-General: I do not wish to follow the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) in an anlysis of the problems which were discussed yesterday, save only to say that it is not the intention, nor will it be the effect, of this legislation to destroy or threaten the destruction of the union of
        948
        which he speaks or of any other. He raised all these points yesterday and my right hon. Friend then indicated that they would remain open for discussion.
        It is not the case, for example, that the legislation opens the way to the establishment of company unions and to the requirement by employers of membership of those company unions to the exclusion of any other. That is expressly excluded by Clause 5, and company unions of that kind would not qualify for protection under the legislation.
        I wish to come specifically to the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North (Mr. David James). My hon. Friend's points go very near to meeting some of the more substantial problems in this area. The suggestion in Clause 8(6) that seamen or those employed in the shipping industry should be covered so that a shorter period of employment should be necessary before membership of the union was required is something my right hon. Friend has well in mind, and indeed may well have in mind over a broader front. There was an Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) suggesting that the word "construction" should be removed from the Clause, which would meet the point put by my hon. Friend and my right Friend will have in mind something along those lines which may serve a wider and fuller purpose.
        The other Amendment, the substitution of "an organisation of employers" in Clause 11 is confined only to the one industry. The same problem arises in some other industries. For example, it relates to the industry with which Equity is concerned and Amendments No. 494 and No. 495 which my right hon. Friend hopes to move in a few moments to Clause 11, go along the same road to meet my hon. Friend's point, but over a wider field. If it turns out that some express provision is necessary in any further sense to be sure that the points put by my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North were met, my right hon. Friend will look at the matter to ensure that they are met.
        In those circumstances, with the undertaking that the points raised will be looked at so as to ensure that in so far as they are not met by Amendments already

        949
        tabled they will be taken into account, I hope that my hon. Friend will not press the matter any further at this stage. The points that he made are important and will certainly be considered hereafter.
        Mr. Ronald Brown (Shoreditch and Finsbury): The hon. and learned Gentleman appears to be saying that Clause 5 would not permit an employer to have a house association. Would he like to pursue that point? Looking back at Clause 1, I can see nothing that precludes any employer from establishing a house association if he so desires.
        The Solicitor-General: I would rather not pursue that point now. We have discussed it on Clause 5. The house association or house union would not qualify under the later provisions of the Bill as a union entitled to registration and an employer could not insist on or attempt to compel his employees to join a house union, whether it was independent or not. We have discussed that matter on Clause 5, and I do not wish to go back on that because the Committee wishes to get on to the subsequent Clauses.
        Mr. Simon Wingfield Digby (Dorset, West): Could my right hon. and learned Friend explain a little further the Amendment in the name of his right hon. Friend to Clause 11? That Amendment speaks of an employer or employers or group of employers. My point is that the Shipping Federation is not itself an employer.
        The Solicitor-General: I should like to make that matter clear. There is a deficiency, with respect, in the Amend-
        950
        ment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, North because it is confined to only one industry. An organisation making an agreement in the manner visualised by my hon. Friend would not necessarily bind the members of that organisation to comply with the agency shop. The important point is that each of the employers should be bound to observe the conditions of the agreement. It is probably more effectively dealt with than in the way suggested by my right hon. Friend's Amendment.
        What we want to achieve is that an agreement made by a union or unions through or with a federation, such as the Shipping Federation, is effective so as to apply to and bind all the members of that Federation—and not only in the shipping industry. There is some room for doubt whether an agreement made by the federation necessarily made members. Both my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend have the same purpose in mind. We shall ensure that when the matter comes forward again, the points are taken into account—and not only points in relation to the shipping industry.
        Mr. David James: Probably both my hon. and learned Friend and I to a certain extent suffer from legislative indigestion. It is difficult to reach a rapid decision on these things, but with the assurance that we shall have an opportunity, if the hon. Gentlemen's Amendments are not satisfactory, to look at this matter again on Report, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
        Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
        Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
        Mr. Harold Walker: The whole of Clause 8 is linked inextricably with the provisions dealt with in some detail later in the Bill for the establishment of the agency shop. This is the second of the two fundamental issues with which, in this part of our proceedings, we have sought to deal in more detail. These are two of what the right hon. Gentleman described on one occasion as the eight pillars of his edifice. I should like to say something about the agency shop.
        First, it appears that this is an American import—probably the product of a couple of weeks spent in the United States on a parliamentary delegation by one of the hon. Gentlemen on the Government Front Bench. It introduces a remarkable change in British trade union history.
        We have been successfully exporting British trade unionism for a long time. Now we are apparently to import instead.
        It is even more remarkable that what will present the most formidable challenge to our industrial relations system is yet another example of the Government's contradiction in insisting that their proposals are based on the recommendations of the Royal Commission. I pointed out yesterday how Clause 5 contradicted the Royal Commission. I cannot find a hint of this proposal in the whole of that very lengthy report.
        Ascribing the best motives to the right hon. Gentleman, I think that he is tilting at a problem which undeniably exists—a problem which arises from a multiplicity of unions, the conflicts of interests between them, and the areas of those interests.
        I seriously doubt whether the right hon. Gentleman's proposals will make any contribution to their improvement, and I am equally convinced that, in many ways, the right hon. Gentleman's proposal to establish agency shops will do irreparable damage to our industrial relations system.
        We are entitled to ask whether the Government have seriously thought this thing through. I wonder whether they have looked at the practical problems in the way of its effective operation. and,
        952
        furthermore, the new problems which it will create.
        We cannot divorce this matter from the subject of our debate yesterday. Indeed, during that debate the Government went out of their way to show the link between the two—the provisions of Clause 5 and the agency shop proposal. The Bill links the two.
        The right hon. Gentleman proposes that where an employer does not readily accede to a request for an agency shop, the matter can be decided by a ballot and the union must secure a majority of the votes of those eligible to vote.
        Some of my hon. Friends have pointed out the glaring inconsistency between the criteria which are imposed on a union to establish a mandate in their industrial relations and the kind of mandate which the Government have for what they are putting before the House and the country. By implication, in their proposals, those who do not vote for, vote against. The Bill imposes a requirement that, in order to get a mandate to establish an agency, a union has to get a majority of the votes of those eligible to vote. We have pointed out that the Tory Party had at least two-thirds of the country not voting for it at the General Election. I think that only 32 per cent. of those eligible to vote voted for the Tory Party. Therefore, under their own standards, we are entitled to say that the remaining 60 odd per cent. who did not vote for them, voted against them.
        Mr. Jeffrey Archer (Louth): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
        Mr. Walker: Perhaps I may finish this point. I think that I can anticipate what the hon. Gentleman is going to say: that 46 per cent. of those who voted voted for the Conservative Party. But 54 per cent. voted against and, therefore, against what the Government are doing.
        Mr. Archer: I was not going to put that point. I was going to say that this was the main platform of our election manifesto. If that percentage had felt—[Interruption.] We produced "Fair Deal at Work" long before the General Election—[Interruption.] Perhaps I may be allowed to put this point. If they felt that strongly about the Bill, why did they not turn out at the General Election and vote for the Labour Party which was not going to allow it to become law?
        Mr. Walker: More people voted against what is being proposed than for it. When we come to debate that narrow point in the Bill I hope that the hon. Gentleman will apply the same criteria to his right hon. Friend's proposals, because his right hon. Friend is moving in a contrary direction to that implied in the hon. Gentleman's remarks.
        Mr. Jeffrey Archer Mr. Jeffrey Archer rose——
        Mr. Walker: No. Many of my hon. Friends want to take part in the debate, and I want to be brief.
        If the union does not secure a majority of the votes of those eligible to vote, it has to wait for two years before having another go. During those two years, why should any worker retain his union membership? To do so in that situation would be an ineffective gesture of loyalty——
        Mr. Ashton: Is my hon. Friend aware that in almost every Division on the Bill the Government have not received 51 per cent. of the votes in the House, never mind in the country? They need 316 votes in the House to achieve that percentage but they are not getting like that figure.
        Mr. Walker: My hon. Friend is right, and what he says illustrates the hypocritical double standards which we have come to expect from the Government—
        Mr. Jeffrey Archer Mr. Jeffrey Archer rose——
        Mr. Walker: No. It is legitimate to say to the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends, "Physician, heal thyself".
        I come back to the two years for which, having failed to secure election, the union will have to wait before having another bite at the cherry. Why should we believe that people will want to continue what, in that situation, will be nothing more than an ineffective gesture of loyalty to the union, an expression of faith in the future, or a diminishing safeguard of employment elsewhere when, under this provision and that in Clause 5(1)(b), the odds are that at the end of the two-year period the union will be less likely to secure a majority than it was the first time?
        But even if the union is successful, that success can be thwarted by the Tory
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        fifth-column—the legion of non-unionists—the growth of which will undoubtedly be encouraged by the provisions of Clause 5, because while it takes a majority of those eligible to vote to secure any agency, one-fifth of the workers covered by the agency can frustrate it. It seems an extraordinary and highly dubious proposition that non-unionists should be given a right by law to say which union shall negotiate, or if any union shall negotiate, in a particular establishment.
        I believe that the fundamental point which has been ignored by the Government is that union recognition usually precedes, and does not follow, trade union recruitment. Before people join the union they have to be satisfied that they are doing so to good purpose, and that is that the union they are joining will be able to represent them and negotiate on their behalf.
        What the Government equally ignore, and what is ignored by the hirsute Gentleman below the Gangway, is that under the provisions of Clause 5 it will be icreasingly difficult for unions to secure the minimum membership that is necessary for recognition under the agency shop provisions.
        Our debate yesterday was dominated by that issue, and whilst we debate the closed shop, we debated also the more typical shop in which trade union membership falls short of 100 per cent. and which, under this Bill, will be progressively less likely to establish the qualifications needed for an agency.
        I think that we ought to consider one or two situations that will arise even when a union has the necessary strength to put in its bid for an agency. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell us what he thinks will happen when, for example, in my railway workshops in Doncaster where the N.U.R. and my own union the A.E.U.W. seek to recruit the same grades of worker from the same areas and one or other union puts in a bid to establish an agency, either for part, or for the whole of the establishment.
        [Sir ROBERT GRANT-FERRIS in the Chair]
        Let us say that one of them is not successful. What does the right hon. Gentleman expect will happen, once one of those two unions has established an

        955
        agency, about the members of the other union? Under these requirements, it seems that those who have lost out will have to seek employment elsewhere or will have to transfer their union membership or take out additional member-ship——
        Mr. Ronald Bell Mr. Ronald Bell (Buckinghamshire, South) rose——
        Mr. Walker: The hon. and learned Gentleman will have his opportunity later. I should not have given way in the first place.
        Mr. Bell: On a point of Order. We are on the Question, I think, That the Clause stand part of the Bill. The Clause is about contributions in lieu of union dues. All these questions about ballots and withdrawal of recognition would appear to arise under later Clauses altogether.
        The Chairman: I think that the hon, Member is in order.
        Mr. Walker: I was asking the right hon. Gentleman what happened to the individual union member in that situation, when his own union had lost out. The Government have overlooked, among many other things, one unique difference between the British trade union movement and that of most other countries. Few other union movements have this deep involvement in the provision of friendly benefits, including superannuation.
        If I were a member of the A.E.U.W. and I were a fitter at the Doncaster railway workshops, and the N.U.R. established an agency, is the Secretary of State telling me that, in that situation, I would have to transfer to the N.U.R.? But I have been paying for over 20 years to my union superannuation fund. [Interruption.] If the hon. and hirsute Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) is not interested in our debate, he should continue his discussion where he was having it before he came in.
        The Secretary of State thinks that it is as easy as that to transfer union membership. He may give me the reply which he gave one of my hon. Friends earlier, that, if, as it does, it conflicts with union rules and the T.U.C. Bridlington Agreement, the rules and the Agreement will
        956
        have to be changed. But if it were as easy as that to change trade union rules and structure, I am sure that they would have been changed long since.
        We know the formidable efforts of the T.U.C. and individual unions, particularly in recent years, to reform their structure and bring about a more rational movement. But it cannot be done overnight or quickly without counter-productive disruption. I am sure that because the right hon. Gentleman is trying to foist change on the union movement, disruption is inevitable. The slower evolutionary methods of the T.U.C. will in the long term bring the only effective and reliable process of reform.
        I doubt whether the problems, the existence of which I acknowledged at the outset, will be resolved by some blueprint dreamed up on a planner's table in St. James's Square or Smith Square. This is an attempt to graft an alien concept on to the body of British industrial relations. It will be rejected by that body and I am sure will be rejected by the House.
        Mr. James Sillars: It is difficult for us to discuss the ramifications of the agency shop in the time available under the guillotine. Earlier we discussed for one and a half hours an Amendment relating to Equity. I do not object to that because the 20,000 people involved in that issue are entitled to 90 minutes of our time. However, between now and midnight we must dispose, under the guillotine, of Clauses 8 to 31, and with them the many issues that we would like to raise affecting 10 million trade unionists affiliated to the T.U.C.
        There are essential differences between Labour and Conservative policy and practice relating to the agency shop, but because so many of my hon. Friends still wish to speak, I will not develop this part of my argument. So far the Secretary of State has projected himself as being fair and reasonable, and that is the image the country has of the Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] We are used to hon. Gentlemen opposite projecting themselves through the ad. men—[Interruption.] The representative of commercial radio on the benches opposite should keep his mouth shut. He might learn something.
        Tory policy on industrial relation is clear. It is to break the trade union

        957
        organisation and stunt its growth. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] This is not nonsense. Hon. Gentlemen opposite will find Amendments appearing which will test their sincerity. We will then discover whether they really want to see the trade unions strengthened.
        Last night the Secretary of State showed his real colours when he made an absurd statement about industrial democracy. He tried to show that the close-down of the closed shop meant an extension of democracy and that what was happening was equivalent to what was happening in politics. That is wrong. Whereas people generally have a way of influencing what happens in politics, the decision-taking in industry occurs in the board room, and we know what hon. Gentlemen opposite think about worker-participation in those decisions.
        Sir John Rodgers (Sevenoaks): To which Clause is the hon. Gentleman speaking?
        Mr. Sillars: Does it matter at this stage? We have till 12 o'clock to discuss from Clause 8 to Clause 31.
        Knowledge and interest in trade unionism often occurs some time after a person joins a trade union. It is not surprising, therefore, that trade union organisers often find difficulty in getting people to realise the benefits of trade union membership, particularly in view of the constant denigration of the trade union movement by hon. Gentlemen opposite and their friends. If hon. Gentlemen opposite do not believe that, they should read the record of the last Tory Party conference at Blackpool. It is all there. There is a natural aversion to trade unionism which has been inculcated in the population by their friends.
        The Government have designed their so-called agency shop method as a way of stunting our organisational growth. They call into play an apparently fair and reasonable apparatus, of applications, examinations by referees, and even involve the ballot box——
        An Hon. Member: What is wrong with that?
        Mr. Sillars: There is nothing wrong with the ballot box. What is wrong is the formula which has been chosen, including the extraordinary requirements of
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        a majority of 51 per cent. of those eligible to vote. In percentage terms, I have the greatest number eligible to vote in Scotland behind me. Some of that lot opposite have as little as 24 per cent. But even in South Ayrshire, the heart of the Labour movement, I have only 47 per cent. That is what is wrong with the provision involving the ballot box.
        When practising trade unionists look at the Government's agency shop, they see it as a very ominous proposition. In a situation where a trade union is relatively weak and struggling to establish itself, an employer can forestall its progress by pre-empting an application to the court for an agency shop agreement, knowing that the union is unlikely to get it, and probably the union does not want to make an application at that time, anyway. Where a union is in the ascendancy and makes application, the employer can block it simply by refusing to recognise. This is a key provision in the Clause dealing with the agency shop. If the employer recognises, but only if, then an application can be made.
        We have had a recent experience in Scotland. When a bad employer wants to break a trade union, he fights on the basic issue of recognition. I have in mind the B.S.R. conflict in East Kilbride. It took weeks of trade union agitation, picketing and campaigning to get recognition in that factory.
        Mr. R. Carr: The hon. Gentleman will realise that, had the Bill been in operation, that would not have been necessary. The workers could have gone to the court and the C.I.R. and had a ballot. They would have got their recognition.
        Mr. Sillars: As I understand it—[HON. MEMBERS: "You don't."] I am open to correction from the right hon. Gentleman—the Clause provides that if the employers recognises, an application can be made. In the B.S.R. conflict, the employer refused to recognise. That is the essence of our case against the right hon. Gentleman.
        Even if the union is recognised, there are other obstacles to overcome: the 51 per cent. of those eligible, the constant threat of the two-yearly recall for the trade union, and then there may be the problem of the licensed blackleg which has been created by the Bill.

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        I do not expect the Secretary of State to see our point of view. His philosophy on industrial relations is different from ours. We believe in persuasion. One of the reasons why the T.U.C. welcomed the Commission on Industrial Relations was that it believed that it could act as a salve to the wounds sometimes opened up as a result of necessary conflicts of interest which arise in an industry. We welcomed the C.I.R. because of its persuasive influence, not its coercive influence in industrial relations.
        One of the mistakes too often made in examining industrial relations is that it is forgotten that they concern people. People are not perfect. People will erupt, will lose their tempers. It happens here, never mind outside in industry. It happens here, in reasonable working conditions, never mind down the pit. [An HON. MEMBER: "Reasonable working conditions here?"] I hear one of my hon. Friends say that working conditions here are not reasonable. They are far better than down the pit.
        Sometimes, men need a safety valve, and sometimes, when the safety valve blows, there is an unofficial strike, and there are bad feelings. But recourse should be had not to the courts but to commonsense and reason, or, in the larger problem, to the Commission on Industrial Relations.
        I shall say no more now. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] If there had been no guillotine, many of us would have said a great deal more. There are two reasons for the guillotine. One is that hon. Members opposite cannot stand the night shift. The second—my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) was quite right—is that we are now down to the meat and detail of the Bill, and Tory ignorance of the industrial situation in Britain is plain to see every minute of every day on which we debate the Bill.
        [Sir ALFRED BROUGHTON in the Chair]
        10.45 p.m.
        Mr. Adam Butler (Bosworth): I have had some experience on the night shift, so I feel that I can follow the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars). I have listened carefully to the debates so far, but I have not intervened before, being aware of the time limit.
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        I did not intervene in the debate on the closed shop, although I should have liked to do so, believing firmly in the need for strong trade union membership. I firmly believe, also, as we all do on this side, in the right of the individual on conscientious grounds not to join a trade union. This is where the agency shop provisions come in, because they are a compromise between the closed shop and the individual conscience.
        The hon. Member for South Ayrshire spoke of the situation under a closed shop agreement having to be altered when the Bill becomes law. Why? Where the individual employer has previously agreed with the union to implement a closed shop agreement, the employer will immediately agree with the trade union concerned to implement an agency shop agreement. So they will continue with 99 per cent. trade union membership, the only exception being the individual with a conscientious objection. We can expect the 750,000 or more members of closed shops to continue as members of agency shops, and their unions will not be disrupted in any way.
        Opening the debate, the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker) spoke of the situation in the workshops in his constituency. Before discussing the point which he raised, I wish to make clear that I regard the agency shop provisions as some of the most important, if not the most important, provisions in the Bill. This is why I am, perhaps, going out of order in discussing the subject on Clause 8, to which it is not directly relevant. I am conscious that we have only an hour and 10 minutes left, so I hope that I shall be excused if I deal a little further with the question of the agency shop.
        The hon. Member for Doncaster is possibly under the same misunderstanding as many trade unionists. This may have arisen from the wording in the Consultative Document that the agency shop agreement involved only one trade union and an employer. This is not so, as can be seen from line three at the beginning of Clause 11. This refers to
        "one or more trade unions"
        forming an agreement with the employers. In that situation the two unions that the hon. Gentleman mentioned would, I suggest, form part of the agency shop agreement.
        Mr. Orme: If the employer agrees.
        Mr. Butler: Yes. If he does not there are procedures in the Bill for taking the matter to N.I.R.C. and the C.I.R.
        Mr. Harold Walker: I do not want the hon. Gentleman to misunderstand my point. I could have been misunderstood because of the noise that was going on below the Gangway. I am anticipating the hypothetical situation that could arise whether one or other of the unions, thinking that if it made its bid it could establish a sole agency, made that bid and was successful. What happens then to the excluded union's members?
        Mr. Butler: This may be a point that my right hon. Friend will cover. Where the employer did not agree, the C.I.R. would be called in and in such a situation I believe that it would establish that the two unions should jointly form part of the agency shop agreement.
        Many of the trade union leaders to whom I have talked about the Bill——
        Hon. Members: Name them.
        Mr. Butler: We do have a number of points of contact with the trade unions —more than Labour Members may realise.
        What those trade union leaders are concerned about, among other things, is the danger of the proliferation of unions, that is, the switching of members from one union to another under the agency shop provisions. They fear that a poaching union, by offers of better conditions and pay, may attract the members from their more moderate and responsible unions. If hon. Members study the Bill they will note the deliberately difficult process needed to alter an agency shop agreement, the need first of all for 20 per cent. of those involved in the agreement to challenge the agreement in writing. This must be followed by a ballot which requires over 50 per cent. of those eligible to vote to change the agreement, and then there can be no change for a further period of two years if that ballot is not in favour of a change. This allows change if change is needed, but slow change. If there is support for the agreement for over 50 per cent. of those eligible to vote there is no change. These are adequate safeguards in most circumstances.
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        However, in some places of work where there are very few employees it would only require possibly one or two of the workers to be persuaded to change by a poaching union. In spite of the two-year delay provision, this could bring about a proliferation of trade unions.
        Here I want to refer particularly to agriculture, and to declare my interest as a member of the National Farmers' Union. I believe in union solidarity in farming as elsewhere. The industry is made up of literally thousands of small units. Ninety-five per cent. of farmers employ four men or fewer. In this situation I can see opportunity for poaching, so I ask my right hon. Friend to consider a limit to the size of firm, the size of unit of work, which is to be covered by the agency shop agreement. I suggest that the minimum employed in such a unit should be 10.
        Mr. Ted Fletcher (Darlington): I was interested to hear the hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Adam Butler) say that he stood for a strong trade union membership, echoing the sentiments expressed by the Secretary of State. He knows perfectly well that hon. Members opposite will be in their constituencies this weekend making speeches about cutting the trade unions down to size. They will be saying that the trade union movement is too big for its boots. They will be blaming the trade union movement for inflation and many other of the evils from which we are suffering.
        The hon. Gentleman says that the nub of the Clause, the agency shop, will not disrupt the ability of trade union organisers to negotiate. It is apparent that he knows nothing about what happens on the shop floor during negotiations. I will give him an example of the sort of situation that will arise under the agency shop provision.
        Let us take the case of a factory with 1,000 employees. It would be possible for a ballot to be taken, with 499 people voting for an agency shop and one voting against. There could not then be an agency shop because there must be, as my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker) said, a majority of the employees in favour and not only a majority of those voting.
        But supposing 501 employees vote for an agency shop and the other 499 opt to

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        pay their contributions but not belong to the union. The trade union officials and shop stewards will have to negotiate with the management for half the employees. Has anyone said anything about the rights of people who are not members of a union to opt out of the agreement negotiated by the union's officials? These people will say, "We are obliged by law to pay union contributions but we are not obliged to accept what the union is negotiating for." As a consequence, the employer will be faced with the fact that he is dealing with one section of his employees who are in the union and subject to its rules, and another section paying the equivalent of the union contribution but are not subject to its rules. It will be an impossible situation in which friction will arise. There will be more industrial disputes, not fewer.
        The trade unions will fight this provision tooth and nail because the great element that has united the movement has been the drive for unity. Anyone who has seen the great trade union demonstrations will have noted that the slogan is, "Unity is strength". Trade unionists have fought all their working lives for it because they have said, "United we stand, divided we fall". It is no accident that they call their headquarters "Unity Hall". They know that the trade union movement is their only shield against rapacious profit-hungry employers; they know that unity is essential to build up the movement.
        The trade union movement will not tolerate a situation where the trade unions are defeated on the factory floor. If hon. Members opposite wish to impose this provision by law, then the trade unions will fight on the factory floor. Many hon. Members opposite have had no experience of what happens in a factory. Every week, 10,000 agreements are entered into between rate-fixers and shop stewards. They are mutually agreed between trade union officials and representatives of the management.
        11.0 p.m.
        What will be the position in an agency shop? Will the shop steward negotiate, say, for piece work prices for people who pay the trade union contribution but are not members of his union? Of course he will not. We shall get division in the workshops, and people will disregard
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        whatever agreements a trade union negotiates. The agency shop will be a recipe for unofficial strikes; for people to say: "I don't have to submit to any discipline from the trade union leaders or the district office because I am not a member of the union."
        We all know that from time to time workers have disputes with their unions. It may well happen that workers, members of a trade union, will believe that their district committee is too militant or, more often perhaps, not militant enough. The district committee may decide, if a large number of members are unemployed, to restrict overtime in a certain factory to 16 hours a month. Some dissidents might say in future, "We are not prepared to accept the committee's decision, and we are now empowered by law to leave the movement and not accept trade union directives." The result will be friction on the factory floor. The idea of the agency shop will disrupt trade union activities.
        We all know the reason for introducing the agency shop. I speak as one who has spent a good deal of his life as a shop steward and a full-time union official, and I know that when I have had to negotiate for my members I have been in a very weak position if I have not had 100 per cent. membership behind me. The result of the agency shop will be that union leaders will have to negotiate without the unity of the trade union behind them. Employers will tell them that they represent only 52 per cent. or 54 per cent. or 60 per cent. of the employees, and they will blow up the non-unionist in the shop against the unionists, and so create disunity within the trade union ranks.
        Those outside the trade union movement cannot realise that unity is at its very heart. Without unity, we are nothing; we have no strength with which to combat the employers. It is because the agency shop strikes a blow against that unity that the trade union movement will fight it to the death.
        Mr. Ronald Bell: We seem to have embarked on a general debate on the agency shop, so I invite my right hon. Friend to consider some of the impact of the agency shop on employees. He will perhaps realise that this proposal is a corollary and a complementary part

        965
        of the operation of prohibiting the closed shop. I can assure him that this operation has my full support and, I should have thought, the full support of every hon. Member who values individual liberty in its most essential form.
        One would think that any member of a union would not wish someone to join it who did not wish to join. However, since the Bill incorporates the prohibition of the closed shop in that sense, there is brought forward, starting with this Clause but maturing a little later in the Bill—though I fear we shall never reach that maturity—this device of the agency shop. The effect of this device will be to extend trade union membership, or certainly the pressure for trade union membership, rather higher up the scale of skill, or even management function, than is the case now. There is no doubt that a good many people who will be affected in this way are worried about the prospects.
        I am thinking particularly of professional people. Nowadays a good many professional people are in employment. I suppose that there are many more professional people in employment than in private practice because in the limited liability company everyone is an employee. The employer is an abstraction. Perhaps one day we shall find that even abstractions are forced to join trade unions, but for the moment it is only living human beings.
        Since these people are employees, even though they are performing professional functions, the Bill will bring considerable pressure upon them to join a trade union. This is because of the way in which it is shaped. Many of these people feel that this is quite wrong. It is not that they feel any particular hostility towards a trade union, it is rather, perhaps, that they would like to be represented by what they regard as their own trade unions, that is by their professional bodies. I hope that as the Bill proceeds on its fairly long and tortuous way we shall find some way in which to improve these Clauses so that people who are in effect discharging a professional function are not driven against their will into organisations which are not really congenial to them.
        It is not a question of hostility, it is a question of being congenial and appro-
        966
        priate. I am thinking, for example, of the architect or engineer—the professional engineer—who is employed, the doctor or lawyer and so on. These, it will be widely recognised, are not particularly apt members of some trade unions.
        Mr. Ashton: Why not?
        Mr. Bell: If I may complete my remarks the hon. Gentleman may see why not. These people may be driven to joining such unions because the professional employee is, almost by definition. always in a minority in almost every category.
        Mr. Arthur Palmer (Bristol, Central): Does the hon. and learned Gentleman not appreciate that there have been for many years a considerable number of professional workers' trade unions—the National Union of Local Government Workers, the Institution of Professional Civil Servants, the Electrical Power Engineers Association—which organise professional people of high qualifications, up to a high salary level, and which are at the same time affiliated to the T.U.C.?
        Mr. Bell: The hon. Gentleman has mentioned bodies, such as the Institution of Professional Civil Servants and so on, which I am bound to say I would consider more of the kind of professional body of which I am speaking. They may be affiliated to the T.U.C.; there is nothing to prevent them affiliating if they want to. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has understood my argument. What I am seeking to protect people against is being forced to join unions which are not professional unions, unions such as A.S.T.M.S. and D.A.T.A., which everyone knows are highly militant unions and which have, through the organisation of the closed shop, been forcing professional people into membership of them against their will and even forcing them sometimes, out of employment because they will not join these militant unions, which are not professional unions.
        It is surely right that the remuneration, conditions of work, and so on, of professional people should be negotiated by associations which are themselves professional and which understand the nature of the work which those people are performing—bodies which have the same attitude to the work, the same traditional

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        concepts of public service which are sometimes clearly opposed to the militant approach of certain unions——
        Mr. Ray Carter (Birmingham, Northfield): The doctors?
        Mr. Bell: Yes, indeed. The doctors would take a very different view from, say, the A.S.T.M.S. over many aspects——
        Mr. Pavitt Mr. Pavitt rose——
        Mr. Bell: There are many other hon. Members who wish to take part in the debate on the agency shop which appears to be the last debate tonight, and it would be wrong for me to give way to these informal interruptions. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are so sensitive about this, because they know that they are on a thoroughly bad case——
        Mr. Ashton: On a point of order. We may be under the guillotine, but the hon. and learned Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) is repeating arguments which were thoroughly discussed yesterday at a time when he was not in the Chamber. This is the first time he has taken part in the debates. Is it not tedious repetition to repeat all these arguments at this late hour?
        The Temporary Chairman (Sir A. Broughton): I had not thought that it was tedious repetition.
        Mr. Bell: I do not think the hon. Gentleman is following the tenor of my argument— because we have reached the question of the agency shop—I am slightly surprised that we have reached it at all. Some hon. Members opposite are sensitive about this because they know that there has been the most blatant buccaneering in this professional field by certain militant trade unions. In introducing here a compulsory mechanism which will force union membership much higher up the scale, it is right that we should give, by way of guidance to the Commission and to the Industrial Court, some protection for these people to ensure that they are given the sort of representation that they want and that is appropriate to their professional status. I hope my right hon. Friend when he replies will be able to tell us that in some way at a later stage he will be able to meet this just case of the professional employee.
        The Temporary Chairman: Mr. Eadie.
        Dame Irene Ward: Might I have just one intervention? My hon. Friend generously gave way to hon. Gentlemen opposite.
        The Temporary Chairman: Order. We had better get on with the debate.
        Dame Irene Ward: I was getting on with the debate.
        The Temporary Chairman The Temporary Chairman: Mr. Eadie. Dame Irene Ward rose——
        The Temporary Chairman: Order. I call Mr. Eadie.
        Mr. Alex Eadie (Midlothian): Rumours abound in the Chamber that, because of the unreasonable provisions about the procedure of ballots and voting percentages in the Clause dealing with the agency shop, the Government would have second thoughts and introduce an Amendment. Many of my hon. Friends were sceptical about this, since during the debates very little has been given by the Government. The Government intend to drive through this conception of democracy, which will mean that ballots of trade unions will be treated differently from parliamentary and municipal elections.
        11.15 p.m.
        Great exception will be taken in the trade union movement if this Clause goes through, a Clause that requires 51 per cent. of those eligible to vote in the ballot. The right hon. Gentleman has been paid many compliments for having been fair and reasonable. Indeed, one reads in the Press that at one time he was a shop steward. If he has been a shop steward, he should appreciate the ire and resentment that this provision will stir up among trade unionists. We are supposed to believe that this Clause will be helpful to the trade union movement. Last Saturday morning I spoke at a demonstration in Edinburgh where 3,000 trade unionists marched to the Usher Hall. Many things were said at that demonstration about this Bill, but one of the aspects of the Bill that aroused most ire was the fact that trade unionists are being singled out for a different concept of democracy. The Government have never produced a reason for treating trade unions differently on

        969
        this question of 51 per cent. of eligible voters.
        When we say that this is a blacklegs' charter, we mean that the blacklegs will be able to decide whether or not there shall be an agency shop. At election times, candidates go before the electorate and speak to them as good democrats. Whatever opinions we may hold in this House, we try to be good democrats. We say to the people, "For goodness' sake, even if you do not vote for me, remember to vote and make a decision at the election." But here we have a provision whereby the absentee, the person who is not going to vote, the drop-out, will decide whether there will be an agency shop or not. The right hon. Gentleman should be ashamed of himself for not saying in this House, "This was a mistake. We do not want to treat the trade unions differently from the rest of the people." The trade union movement is entitled to have the same standards of democracy in relation to the ballot as any other body. I am convinced that this Clause will arouse considerable ire among trade unionists all over the country.
        The right hon. Gentleman has been very generous in giving way to me when I have wished to intervene in the debate.
        I went to the Library and I asked for the percentage votes of all hon. Members elected at the last election. Not one candidate in the whole of Scotland had a majority of the people eligible to vote. I myself have the second highest Labour vote in the whole of Scotland in my constituency of Midlothian, but I do not have the majority of the people eligible to vote. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars) has the highest percentage vote, but he does not have the majority of the people eligible to vote. Therefore, I would suggest to the Front Bench that an analysis of all the constituencies shows that there are only 17 in the whole of Britain in which the votes represent a majority of the people eligible.
        I have been an active trade unionist since I was in my teens, and I must confess that the whole of my experience in the trade union movement has been in the mining industry. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks there is any provision in the Bill that will make any difference to trade union membership in the mining industry, he has another think coming. I
        970
        suggest that if there is any attempt by any of the Clauses in the Bill to break the membership in the mining industry, this Government will try it at their peril.
        I have been a full time trade unionist and I have had few problems with the National Coal Board. We have not had a closed shop. We do not say before a man gets a job, "You must have a union card". We say, "When you come into the mining industry, you will become a member of the union", and the man will join the union gladly, because the position in the mining industry is one of solidarity. "To injure one is to injure all", is the slogan in the mining industry.
        When I was a miner in the National Coal Board I never had any problems. My problems were mostly involved in dealing with privately-licensed mines. I was always going to see the private mine owners and trying to persuade them to bring their conditions up to those laid down in the legislation so that they would not be injurious to the health of the miners. They did not observe the agreements which had been arrived at in relation to concessions, and so on, with the miners' unions.
        I anticipate that the Clause to some extent will provide a wonderful escape Clause for some of the private mine-owners. If the miners working in those private mines are to be penalised and brutalised by those owners, then the miners working in adjoining National Coal Board pits will hardly stand by and watch. It has been said during the debate that there is no brutality in industry in regard to the trade unions. I can remember my father coming into the house bleeding because he wanted to go to a pit to organise a trade union movement. And that was not all that long ago.
        The concept of democracy which this Bill envisages is 100 per cent. wrong and the right hon. Gentleman owes it to the trade union movement to bring forward an Amendment to provide that the trade unions will be treated in the same way as other people are in the country and no differently.
        Dame Irene Ward: I want to add my support to the remarks made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) about the protection of professionals in regard to the agency shop issue.

        971
        I have lived in a big trade union area all my life. Although I have always been an ardent Tory, sometimes I have argued for the trades unions, sometimes for the employer, but always, I hope, for my country.
        I should like to describe something which happened recently on Tyneside. C. A. Parsons, a well-known firm on Tyneside, decided to establish as its negotiating body the trade union known as D.A.T.A. It then told its professional engineers that if they did not join D.A.T.A. by 31st May this year they would lose their jobs. This is the kind of thing against which I want the Bill to protect professional people. Those professional engineers would not, of course, have joined D.A.T.A. They had determined to leave the service of C. A. Parsons, and rightly so.
        It was a great shame that a company of such high standard and contribution to this country should have behaved in that way to one section of its employees. Professional engineers want protection, with all the other professional people, so that they cannot be treated by employers in the way in which these professional engineers were treated.
        I was absolutely furious. However, I want to thank my right hon. Friend for the sympathetic answers which he gave when I asked him whether he could find a way in the Bill to protect those who want to do their work properly, to belong or not to belong to trades unions, and to maintain standards.
        I hope that, in replying to this last debate, my right hon. Friend will undertake, on Report, to consider professionals in all sections of industry and to see that in the Bill they get as much right to safeguards as trade unionists and employers who have the right to reasonable protection.
        I was horrified that a body of people who had served a company well with high standards of work should have been told by that company that if they did not join that militant union, D.A.T.A., they would lose their jobs. That is not British.
        Mr. Hugh Jenkins: My hon Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) has spoken out of his experience, but I think that the hon and learned Member
        972
        for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) spoke out of his fears and fantasies. As the hon. and learned Gentleman was talking about the so-called problems of the professional worker, I wondered whether he realised that in unions affiliated to the T.U.C. there are members whose incomes are probably greater than that of any hon. Member of this House. There are many members of unions, too, whose incomes are below the subsistence level. This is not a reflection on the trade union movement; this is a reflection upon our jungle society which hon. Gentlemen opposite are dedicated to make worse.
        Mr. Ronald Bell: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) gave an illustration of just how those people have been coerced into union membership?
        Mr. Jenkins: Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will allow me to point out that the tales about D.A.T.A. are matters to which my hon. Friends who are members of that organisation will respond later.
        The right hon. Gentleman, in reply to an earlier debate, suggested that the agency shop proposal was a possible solution to these problems. I do not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman understands how difficult, indeed, how impossible, of application the agency shop situation can be. If I speak from the point of view of what happens in the industry I know, it does not mean that there is anything special about it, or anything particular about it, but it illustrates problems which will be found throughout industry, and in every trade union.
        The reason why I produce the two examples which I propose to place before the Committee is that the hon. and learned Gentleman spoke of the position of the employers. I propose to give the Committee, not my words, but the words of the Film Production Association, which is the organisation of employers, to illustrate the difficulty of applying the agency shop in this industry. Referring to the agency shop proposals they say:
        "This provision appears to mean that in the context of the Film Industry, each Production Company would be required to conclude a separate agency shop agreement with each

        973
        Trade Union every time a film goes into production."
        A film production company is formed for every film, and exists for about three weeks. That is the duration of its life, and within this period of three weeks this company has to form an agency shop with each of the trade unions working in the film industry. As the association says:
        "This would require both a multiplicity of Agreements and of negotiations and, in our opinion, would cause confusion and a worsening of industrial relations.
        The FPA requests, therefore, in the strongest possible terms, that provision should be made for 'Agency Shop Agreements' to be concluded on behalf of an Employer or Employers by an organisation of employers and one or more Trade Unions.
        It is primarily a matter for the Trades Unions concerned to make their own case for the retention of arrangements which, inter alia, seek to regulate and control entry into an Industry which suffers a substantial degree of under-employment. Nevertheless, unrestricted entry for artists in particular would tend to become an embarrassment for the Employers."
        There is a statement of the enormous difficulty that would be experienced in attempting to operate an agency shop situation in this area, because not even the members of the employers' association are permanent. The production company is ephemeral, and the agreement is with the employers' association as a whole, including and speaking on behalf of employers who do not exist at the time that the agreement exists, but who will come into existence and to whom the agreement will apply. I do not see how the agency shop could be adapted to that position.
        It has been suggested by the right hon. Gentleman that casting agreements concluded with theatrical managers could be adapted to the agency shop provision. Could they? I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether the agreement which I shall now read can be fitted into an agency shop situation. The association has agreed the following with Equity:

        "(a) To cast their productions in the normal course of events from among full Equity members.

        (b) if any manager wishes to cast a provisional member of Equity, a newcomer, or other person who is not a member of Equity at the time of casting, the manager will write to the Equity Office, giving his reasons for going outside the existing experienced ranks of the profession.

        974

        (c) The Equity Office will reply within one week … and will say either

        (i) that they will accept an application for membership from the person concerned; or

        (ii) that they do not consider that the manager has made out his case …".

        If the manager does not accept the Equity argument, it goes to the joint council, and if the joint council then decides that the person should be admitted, Equity undertakes to admit that person into the union. Can a situation like that be adapted to the agency shop requirements?
        Those situations are typical of the complexity which exists throughout the trade union movement, and if the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that the agency shop situation set out in this and later Clauses can be adapted to the complexity of the trade union movement, I believe that he is living in cloud-cuckoo land.
        Mr. R. Carr: May I quickly reply to the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) by saying that we debated that subject earlier? I then said that we doubted whether in the example of the industry which he mentioned the agency shop, even with the Amendments which we have in mind, would be adequate; but I have promised to look into that matter.
        I believe that Opposition Members are making the agency shop proposal into an unnecessary bogey. The agency shop is a means by which we can provide the stable and effective organisation which unions need and which hitherto, at least in some industries, they have been able to achieve only by means of a closed shop of the old-fashioned kind. We believe that the agency shop provides the essential security and stability and effectiveness of the closed shop without the illiberality which is sometimes associated, so far as minorities of individuals are concerned, with the true closed shop.
        We can only repeat our belief that, whatever may have been true in the past, the strength of the union movement in this country today and the extent of the strength of the unions, not only in members, but in their recognition in society and by Governments and in the economy, are such that they no longer need, as perhaps they have done in the past, to press the rights of the majority to the point of severe illiberality towards the minority.

        975
        I want to remind the Committee of what in fact the agency shop is, because it is not the animal which some hon. Members seem to think it is. In an agency shop agreement, an employer will undertake with the union or unions with which he has made that agreement that he will make it a normal condition of employment that his employees shall belong to that union or those unions. As I said yesterday, we hope that he will be prepared to bind himself to use his best endeavours to persuade all his employees freely to join that union or those unions with which he has made the agreement, but there is the provision that if he fails to persuade all his employees to join the appropriate union or unions, they will be free instead to make an equivalent contribution to the union as an agency fee, or, as a final fall-back position, if they have a conscientious objection—and I agree that this is not much of a problem —if, for example, an employee is a Plymouth Brother, or something of that kind, employees will be able to make the equivalent contribution to some agreed charity. This, first, completely outlaws the free rider, the worker who in the past has got away with all the benefits without paying anything, and we understand the natural irritation, as well as the actual weakness, which has caused the situation. That is absolutely excluded under our proposals.
        We believe that an employer bound by the agency shop agreement of the kind I have described will normally succeed in freely persuading an enormous majority of his employees to become members of the union of their own volition. We believe that this is what will happen and certainly if it does there is no ground for the fears which hon. Members have been discussing.
        I should like to deal with one or two specific matters raised by the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker) and other hon. Members. First, let me make it clear that there is no need to have a ballot in order to establish an agency shop. If there is agreement, an agency shop can be established without a ballot. It is provided only as a fallback position for the orderly resolution of disputes about whether there should be an agency shop. But in more cases than not there will be no such dispute, and the
        976
        agency shop will come about freely without a ballot.
        I understand the point about the percentage of those eligible to vote and I should like to explain how this came about. Hon. Members may not agree but, when I have explained it, I think that they will see that it is not quite as bad as they fear at the moment.
        We set up, in the Clauses in the 40s, that the basic requirement for recognition should be a majority of those voting—not of those eligible. But the agency shop is something far beyond simple recognition and therefore requires, we believe, a stronger affirmation than a simple recognition right. If one looks at many other things—the rules of some unions or the rules of some companies—one finds that it is very common in our institutions that differing degrees of majority are required for different purposes.
        What we are saying here is that a simple majority of those voting is sufficient for basic recognition but that for the agency shop something more than a simple majority is required. We could have provided for a higher percentage of those voting, but we thought that it was simpler to say a simple majority of those eligible.
        I am not saying that hon. Members will agree with it, but that was the reasoning which led to this eligibility. I still maintain that it is right that the acquisition of the agency shop provisions should require some stronger sign of approval than the mere simple recognition right, and that is the point on which we stick.
        The hon. Member for Doncaster has nothing to fear on his example of the railway workshops. First, the Bill does not cause anything at all to happen if people do not want it. Second, it would be perfectly possible for two unions to go together and ask for a joint agency shop. Third, if they fail to agree about that, Clause 12(1) provides that the Commission could not proceed with the establishment of an agency shop if there were reason to think that there was an inter-union dispute about who should have it, or failure to agree on a joint one.
        Finally, a few words about the problems of professional workers. I recognise the problem here, and the sincere and understandable feeling, which is not easy

        977
        to resolve. I would say to my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) that her point about professional engineers at Parsons is, of course, dealt with by the Clause which we were debating yesterday, which gives them the right not to join a union if they feel as she describes.
        What my hon. Friends want here is an automatic right to a separate bargaining agent for any group of professional workers. First, it is very difficult to define professional workers. I know that my ton. Friends have tried this in a later Amendment. I have obtained advice about their proposal, and I am afraid that, for example, it is more than likely that their definition would not include either nurses or—to take a quite different example —Merchant Navy officers. We do not believe that it is possible to define professional workers with sufficient accuracy.
        But apart from that, what we are dealing with here is a minority of one type of worker embedded in a much larger number. This is a problem which we must tackle, and we shall attempt to tackle it. The way to tackle it is not so much through the agency shop as through the sole bargaining agent provisions, and the way to do it is perhaps when we come to Clauses 42 and 48, where we shall be dealing with the terms of reference of the C.I.R. and the way in which it will look at a claim for bargaining rights.
        I cannot go into more detail now, but I assure my hon. Friends that I have the point in mind. It is when we come to those Clauses that I believe that we must look for the solution.
        11.45 p.m.
        Mrs. Castle: The way in which the Secretary of State had to gabble through his remarks because of lack of time was a sad commentary on the appalling conditions under which we must debate this important matter. Those few words from him represented his answer not only to the questions that have been asked about this Clause but to those asked about nine Clauses which deal with different aspects of the subject.
        All hon. Members who have wished to take part in this discussion have had to gabble their speeches. They would
        978
        have liked to develop their arguments in depth, but that has been impossible, and many of the Amendments which we would have debated have not even been mentioned. I am under an equal disability. It is impossible for me, in the time available, to deal with many aspects which are of far-reaching importance.
        We are discussing not only the right hon. Gentleman's general intention but the whole question of the effectiveness of the means which he is employing to carry out that intention. That was the purpose of a number of our Amendments. Consider—leaving aside the principle for for a moment and dealing with the means —the ballot. The right hon. Gentleman knows that many people, including even those who accept the principle of the agency shop, are appalled by the principle of the ballot as the right hon. Gentleman proposes it and by the idea of there having to be a majority of those eligible to vote.
        All we had from the right hon. Gentleman were a few sentences about this. He did not even effectively attempt to justify this undemocratic principle. [Interruption.] He is not even listening to me now, though I have only a few minutes to speak. What appalling discourtesy to the Committee!
        He made some sort of hurried answer which I could not begin to understand. He said something about agency shop rights being more far-reaching than recognition rights and that, therefore, one needed a bigger majority. He said something of that sort, but he did not have time, under the threat of the guillotine, to explain the position properly.
        Donovan did not link the recognition of trade unions to any automatic ballot, any more than we did in our White Paper or Bill. Donovan argued, rightly, that as a matter of practical—[Interruption.] I wish that hon Gentlemen opposite would make less noise and listen. They are not bothering to listen because they know the chopper will shortly be falling. They do not care. They will exercise power rather than thought.
        As a matter of practical effect on the shop floor, everyone knows that union recruitment follows recognition. It does not precede it. That is why Donovan said, and we agree, that it is absurd to link the statutory rights of recognition

        979
        to some system of balloting. It is certainly absurd to do so by this iniquitous principle of a majority of those eligible to vote.
        This is intolerable because the right hon. Gentleman is mobilising the law of inertia against the expansion of trade unionism. Everything we have heard reinforces our belief and confirms our fear that the agency shop is a formula designed to accommodate the Govern ment's philosophic belief in non-unionism, even if that formula does not accommodate the needs of industry. The hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Adam Butler) admitted as much in his speech.
        This is what the agency shop is designed to be. It is a charter for non-unionism and when the right hon. Gentleman said, in effect, "Under these provisions it will be my intention, and this will be the effect, to have employers freely persuading people to join trade unions voluntarily," he must know, as my hon Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) said yesterday, that already the imminence of the Bill coming into operation is being used as a charter for non-unionism.
        I have before me a notice issued by the senior telecommunications superintendent at Colchester Post Office, dealing with the union's industrial action. It says:
        "It has been reported that some staff have been threatened that, if they do not strike, they will be expelled from the union and will lose their employment if a closed shop is introduced. Under the Government's Industrial Relations Bill, now in Committee stage, 'closed shops' would be illegal. 'Agency shops' would be allowed, and staff would have the legal right not to join a union, provided they pay the equivalent of the subscription for union services."
        Therefore, it is absurd for the right hon. Gentleman to disguise the reality behind this proposal.
        The whole concept of the right hon. Gentleman's agency shop is a formula for accommodating the rights of non-unionists. But hon. Gentlemen opposite should be more careful, because, on this issue, they are not even speaking for the people whom they are supposed to represent. Certainly they are not the voice of intelligent employers.
        It is essential for the Committee to get one matter clear. We have had a lot of
        980
        confused argument about the loose use of the words "closed shop". We are dealing with three quite different types of situation, and it is important to bear them in mind. First, there is the pre-entry closed shop, under which union membership is a condition even of applying for a job. The second is the post-entry closed shop, which is the same as the 100 per cent. union shop. The third is the agency shop, whose dominant characteristic is that union membership is not compulsory.
        Under the right hon. Gentleman's formula, even if a union or unions successfully overcome all the obstacles in the way of securing recognition as an agency shop, including the obstacle of the ballot and the fact that they have to win a majority of all those eligible to vote in the ballot, they are still not entitled to claim the right to speak for all the workers in that shop. This is the profound difference that we are discussing.
        Employers who know what they are talking about are appalled to see the Secretary of State—[Interruption.] Once again, the right hon. Gentleman is not even doing me the courtesy of listening. This is the first time today that I have got to this Dispatch Box, because we on this side have been exercising a self-denying ordinance so that we should have time to deal with this issue. Here, we are dealing with it in these few hurried moments. Employers who know what they are talking about are appalled to see the right hon. Gentleman coming here with the light of fanaticism in his eyes, waving a banner with this strange device, this unique device of the agency shop.
        Sensible employers—[Interruption.] I suggest that hon. Gentlemen opposite should listen to this. They are supposed to care about industrial peace. Sensible employers want to strengthen union authority as the basis of greater stability in industrial relations. But they know that that cannot be done without strengthening trade unionism. They also know that to give an equal right to people in a closely integrated shop not to belong to a union is to mobilise the law of inertia against unionisation and, therefore, that it weakens the strength of trade unionism, as it is intended to do.
        The trouble is that the right hon. Gentleman, while importing the concept of the agency shop from the United

        981
        States, has grafted on to it the historical Conservative hostility to trade unionism——
        Sir J. Rodgers: Nonsense.
        Mrs. Castle: I will give the hon. Gentleman the evidence, and it is conclusive. What the right hon. Gentleman and the Solicitor-General have not done is to import into their legislation Section 8 of the American National Labour Relations Act. That Act, while banning the pre-entry closed shop, adds that a preentry closed shop shall only be an unfair industrial practice or labour practice—
        "Provided, That nothing in this Act … shall preclude an employer from making an agreement with a labor organization to require as a condition of employment membership therein …"
        In other words, the pre-entry closed shop is outlawed only save where union membership is required as part of a collective agreement. Therefore, under United States law, there is no provision similar to that which the right hon. Gentleman is asking us to accept tonight.
        We are asking for unions and employers to have the right, such as they have in many States in the United States, to conclude collective agreements which insist upon 100 per cent. unionisation, but it is that right which the right hon. Gentleman would take away.
        There are some situations in industry which can be dealt with only by a pre-entry closed shop—we have been given some examples tonight—but they are exceptions. As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) said, only about 750,000 workers are covered by such pre-entry closed shop agreements in this country, and it is done for particular reasons. But in most situations in British industry the right answer is the 100 per cent. union shop. Many employers have already negotiated such agreements, because they believe that that is the way, and the only way, to underpin the union's authority.
        These agreements will now be at risk. There are employers throughout the country who are at the moment intensely concerned about that risk because they have stable relations with their unions, they have 100 per cent. union shop
        982
        agreements or they are about to negotiate such agreements, believing that they can get good bargains in return and that, having a 100 per cent. union shop, they will be in a position to secure some kind of control over conditions in their enterprises.
        When the Bill becomes law, however, a new element—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Members will not be cheering for long, when they realise, "My heavens, is that really what we voted for?", when they see the new element of instability, the new fluidity in relations with the trade unions, the new undermining of the authority of trade unions, some of which may at the present time be effectively conducting leadership and control over their membership.
        All that will be at risk, and at risk in a way not found under United States law except in those backward States which still have right-to-work clauses. It will be at risk in obedience not to something for which British industry has asked. The C.B.I. has not asked for this, the Engineering Employers have not asked for it, the British Leylands of this country have not asked for it, and certainly the trade union movement has not asked for it. This is the brain-child of the right hon. Gentleman's theories. That is all. We are being asked tonight to vote on dangerous theories which can undermine what stability we already have in British industry, undermining it in obedience to a dogma directed more to the Conservative Party Conference than to intelligent students of industrial relations.
        The right hon. Gentleman has not given any explanation of the industrial reasons for what he proposes. He has not given us—and none of us has had the chance to ask him to give them—detailed explanations of how his theories will work out in practice. We have had no real discussion of the machinery, of how this theory——
        It being Twelve o'clock, The CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Standing Order (Business Committee) and the Orders [25th and 27th January], to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
        Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:

        Division No. 88.]

        AYES

        [12 midnight

        Adley, Robert

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Emery, Peter

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Eyre, Reginald

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

        Farr, John

        Kirk, Peter

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        Fell, Anthony

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Astor, John

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        Knox, David

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Fidler, Michael

        Lambton, Antony

        Awdry, Daniel

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        Lane, David

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Balniel, Lord

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Fortescue, Tim

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Batsford, Brian

        Foster, Sir John

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Fowler, Norman

        Longden, Gilbert

        Bell, Ronald

        Fox, Marcus

        Loveridge, John

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Benyon, W.

        Fry, Peter

        MacArthur, Ian

        Berry, Hn. Anthony

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Biffen, John

        Gardner, Edward

        McLaren, Martin

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Gibson-Watt, David

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Blaker, Peter

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        McMaster, Stanley

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Body, Richard

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Boscawen, R. T.

        Goodhart, Philip

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Goodhew, Victor

        Maddan, Martin

        Bowden, Andrew

        Gorst, John

        Madel, David

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Gower, Raymond

        Maginnis, John E.

        Braine, Bernard

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Bray, Ronald

        Gray, Hamish

        Marten, Neil

        Brewis, John

        Green, Alan

        Mather, Carol

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Grieve, Percy

        Maude, Angus

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

        Mawby, Ray

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Grylls, Michael

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Bryan, Paul

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Buchanan-Smith, Allck(Angus,N&M)

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Buck, Antony

        Gurden, Harold

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Burden, F. A.

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire.W)

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Mitcheil, David (Basingstoke)

        Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Moate, Roger

        Carlisle, Mark

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Molyneaux, James

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Channon, Paul

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Money, Ernie D.

        Chapman, Sydney

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Hastings, Stephen

        Monro, Hector

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Havers, Michael

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Churchill, W. S.

        Hawkine, Paul

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Heseltine, Michael

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Cockeram, Eric

        Hicks, Robert

        Mudd, David

        Cooke, Robert

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Murton, Oscar

        Coombs, Derek

        Hiley, Joseph

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Cooper, A. E.

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Neave, Airey

        Cordle, John

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Corfield, F. V.

        Holland, Philip

        Normanton, Tom

        Cormack, Patrick

        Holt, Mica Mary

        Nott, John

        Costain, A. P.

        Hooson, Emlyn

        Onslow, Cranley

        Critchley, Julian

        Hordern, Peter

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Crouch, David

        Hornsby, Richard

        Osborn, John

        Crowder, F. P.

        Hornsby-Smith, Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Curran, Charles

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Dalkeith, Earl of

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Pardoe, John

        d'Avigor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        Hunt, John

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        d'Avlgdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Peel, John

        Dean, Paul

        Iremonger, T.L.

        Percival, Ian

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        James, David

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Digby, Simon Wingfield

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Dixon, Piers

        Jessel, Toby

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Pounder, Rafton

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Jopling, Michael

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Drayson, G. B.

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Kaberry, Sir Donald

        Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

        Dykes, Hugh

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Eden, Sir John

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Kilfedder, James

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Kimball, Marcus

        Raison, Timothy

        984

        985

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Spence, John

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Sproat, Iain

        Waddington, David

        Redmond, Robert

        Stainton, Keith

        Welder, David (Clitheroe)

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Rees, Hn. Peter (Dover)

        Steel, David

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Wall, Patrick

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Walters, Dennis

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Stokes, John

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Warren, Kenneth

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Sutcliffe, John

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Tapsell, Peter

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Rost, Peter

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Wilkinson, John

        Royle, Anthony

        Tebbit, Norman

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Temple, John M.

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Scott, Nicholas

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Thomas, Rt. Hn, Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Worsley, Marcus

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Wylle, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Simeons, Charles

        Tilney, John

        Younger, Hn. George

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Trew, Peter

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Mr. Jasper More and

        Soref, Harold

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Mr. Walter Clegg.

        Speed, Keith

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        NOES

        Abse, Leo

        Deakin, Eric

        Hilton, W. S.

        Albu, Austen

        de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Horam, John

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Delargy, H. J.

        Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Allen, Scholefield

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Dempsey, James

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Doig, Peter

        Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Ashley, Jack

        Dormand, J. D.

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        Ashton, Joe

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Atkinson, Norman

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Driberg, Tom

        Hunter, Adam

        Barnes, Michael

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

        Barnett, Joel

        Dunn, James A.

        Janner, Greville

        Beaney, Alan

        Dunnett, Jack

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Eadie, Alex

        Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Edelman, Maurice

        Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Edwarde, Robert (Bilston)

        Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

        Bishop, E. S.

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        John, Brynmor

        Blenkinsop, Arthur

        Ellis, Tom

        Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

        Boardman, H. (Leigh)

        English, Michael

        Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

        Booth, Albert

        Evans, Fred

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Fernyhough, E.

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,LadywoOd)

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Bradley, Tom

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn(W.Ham, S.)

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Proven)

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Kelley, Richard

        Buchan, Norman

        Foley, Maurice

        Kerr, Russell

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Foot, Michael

        Kinnock, Neil

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        Ford, Bed

        Lambie, David

        Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

        Forrester, John

        Lamond, James

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Latham, Arthur

        Cant, R. B.

        Freeson, Reginald

        Carmichael, Neil

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        Garrett, W. E.

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Leonard, Dick

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Ginsburg, David

        Lestor, Miss Joan

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        Golding, John

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

        Cohen, Stanley

        Gourlay, Harry

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Concannon, J. D.

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Lipton, Marcus

        Conlan, Bernard

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Loughlin, Charles

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Hamilton, Jame (Bothwell)

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Cronin, John

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Hamling, William

        McBride, Neil

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        McCartney, Hugh

        Dalyell, Tam

        Hardy, Peter

        McElhone, Frank

        Darling, Rt. Hn. George

        Harper, Joseph

        McGuire, Michael

        Davidson, Arthur

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

        Mackie, John

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Hattersley, Roy

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Maclennan, Robert

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Heffer, Eric S.

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        986

        987

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Pendry, Tom

        Strang, Gavin

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Pentland, Norman

        Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

        Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        Marquand, David

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

        Swain, Thomas

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Prescott, John

        Taverne, Dick

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

        Meacher, Michael

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Probert, Arthur

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Mendelson, John

        Rankin, John

        Tinn, James

        Mikardo, Ian

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Tomney, Frank

        Millan, Bruce

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Torney, Tom

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Rhodes, Geoffrey

        Tuck, Raphael

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Richard, Ivor

        Urwin, T. W.

        Molloy, William

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Varley, Eric G.

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Wainwright, Edwin

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Robertson, John (Paisley)

        Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

        Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

        Wallace, George

        Moyle, Roland

        Roper, John

        Watkins, David

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Rose, Paul B.

        Weitzman, David

        Murray, Ronald King

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Wellbeloved, James

        Ogden, Eric

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        White, James (Glasgow, Po11ok)

        O'Mailey, Brian

        Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        Whitehead, Phillip

        Oram, Bert

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        Whitlock, William

        Orbach, Maurice

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Orme, Stanley

        Sillars, James

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        Oswald, Thomas

        Silverman, Julius

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Skinner, Dennis

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        Padley, Walter

        Small, William

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        Paget, R. T.

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Palmer, Arthur

        Spearing, Nigel

        Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

        Spriggs, Leslie

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Stallard, A. W.

        Mr. Kenneth Marks and

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Mr. Donald Coleman.

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
        The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at Twelve o'clock, including the Questions on Amendments moved by a Member of the Government.
        Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

      Clause 10

        REFERENCE TO INDUSTRIAL TRIBUNAL OF DISPUTE RELATING TO CONTRIBUTION
        Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
        The Committee divided: Ayes 304, Nose 262.

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Redmond, Robert

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Kirk, Peter

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Emery, Peter

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Eyre, Reginald

        Knox, David

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Farr, John

        Lambton, Antony

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Fell, Anthony

        Lane, David

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Fidler, Michael

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Longden, Gilbert

        Rost, Peter

        Fortescue, Tim

        Loveridge, John

        Royle, Anthony

        Foster, Sir John

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Fowler, Norman

        MacArthur, Ian

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Fox, Marcus

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Scott, Nicholas

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        McLaren, Martin

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Fry, Peter

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        McMaster, Stanley

        Simeons, Charles

        Gardner, Edward

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Gibson-Watt, David

        McNair Wilson, Michael

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Maddan, Martin

        Soref, Harold

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        Madel, David

        Speed, Keith

        Goodhart, Philip

        Maginnis, John E.

        Spence, John

        Gorse, John

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Sproat, Iain

        Gower, Raymond

        Marten, Neil

        Stainton, Keith

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Mather, Carol

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Gray, Hamish

        Maude, Angus

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Green, Alan

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Grieve, Percy

        Mawby, Ray

        Stokes, John

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Grylls, Michael

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Sutcliffe, John

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Tapsell, Peter

        Gurden, Harold

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Moate, Roger

        Tebbit, Norman

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Molyneaux, James

        Temple, John M.

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vera

        Money, Ernie D.

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Hastings, Stephen

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Havers, Michael

        More, Jasper

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Hawkins, Paul

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Tilney, John

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Heseltine, Michael

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Trew, Peter

        Hicks, Robert

        Mudd, David

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Murton, Oscar

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Hiney, Joseph

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Neave, Airey

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Waddington, David

        Holland, Philip

        Normanton, Tom

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Nott, John

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Hooson, Emlyn

        Onslow, Cranley

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn.Sir Derek

        Hordern, Peter

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Wall, Patrick

        Homby, Richard

        Osborn, John

        Walters, Dennis

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Warren, Kenneth

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Hunt, John

        Peel, John

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Percival, Ian

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Wiggin, Jerry

        James, David

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Wilkinson, John

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Jessel, Toby

        Pounder, Rafton

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Johnson Smith, C. (E. Grinstead)

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Jopling, Michael

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

        Worsley, Marcus

        Kaberry, Sir Donald

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Younger, Hn. George

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Kilfedder, James

        Raison, Timothy

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Kilnball, Marcus

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Mr. Hector Monro and

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Mr. Victor Goodhew

        NOES

        Abse, Leo

        Allen, Scholefield

        Ashton, Joe

        Albu, Austen

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Atkinson, Norman

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        990

        991

        Barnes, Michael

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Barnett, Joel

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Beaney, Alan

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Moyle, Roland

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Hardy, Peter

        Murray, Ronald King

        Bishop, E. S.

        Harper, Joseph

        Ogden, Eric

        Blenkinsop, Arthur

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Boardman, H. (Leigh)

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

        O'Malley, Brian

        Booth, Albert

        Hattersley, Roy

        Oram, Bert

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Orbach, Maurice

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Orme, Stanley

        Bradley, Tom

        Hilton, W. S.

        Oswald, Thomas

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

        Horam, John

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Proven)

        Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Paget, R. T.

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Palmer, Arthur

        Buchan, Norman

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Cant, R. B.

        Hunter, Adam

        Pendry, Tom

        Carmichael, Neil

        Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

        Pentland, Norman

        Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        Janner, Greville

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

        Prescott, John

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Cohen, Stanley

        John, Brynmor

        Probert, Arthur

        Coleman, Donald

        Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

        Rankin, John

        Concannon, J. D.

        Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Conlan, Bernard

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Richard, Ivor

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Cronin, John

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Robertson, John (Paisley)

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

        Kelley, Richard

        Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

        Dalyell, Tam

        Kerr, Russell

        Roper, John

        Darling, Rt. Hn. George

        Kinnock, Neil

        Rose, Paul B.

        Davidson, Arthur

        Lambie, David

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Klimarnock)

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Lamond, James

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Latham, Arthur

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Lawson, George

        Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        Deakins, Eric

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Leonard, Dick

        Sillars, James

        Delargy, H. J.

        Lestor, Miss Joan

        Silverman, Julius

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Skinner, Dennis

        Dempsey, James

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

        Small, William

        Doig, Peter

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Dormand, J. D.

        Lipton, Marcus

        Spearing, Nigel

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Spriggs, Leslie

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Loughlin, Charles

        Stallard, A. W.

        Driberg, Tom

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Dunn, James A.

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Dunnett, Jack

        McBride, Neil

        Strang, Gavin

        Eadie, Alex

        McCartney, Hugh

        Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

        Edelman, Maurice

        McElhone, Frank

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        McGuire, Michael

        Swain, Thomas

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Taverne, Dick

        Ellis, Tom

        English, Michael

        Mackie, John

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)

        Evans, Fred

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        Fernyhough, E.

        Maclennan, Robert

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Tinn, James

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Tomney, Frank

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Torney, Tom

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Tuck, Raphael

        Foley, Maurice

        Mallalieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfield, E.)

        Urwin, T. W.

        Foot, Michael

        Marks, Kenneth

        Varley, Eric G.

        Ford, Ben

        Marquand, David

        Wainwright, Edwin

        Forrester, John

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Freeson, Reginald

        Meacher, Michael

        Wallace, George

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Watkins, David

        Garrett, W. E.

        Mendelson, John

        Weitzman, David

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Mikardo, Ian

        Wellbeloved, James

        Ginsburg, David

        Millan, Bruce

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        White, James (Casgow, Pollok)

        Gourlay, Harry

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Whitehead, Phillip

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Molloy, William

        Whitlock, William

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        992

        993

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Mr. John Golding and

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        Mr. William Hemline.

      Clause 11

        AGENCY SHOP AGREEMENT
        Amendments made: No. 494, in page 9, line 3, leave out 'an employer' and insert 'one or more employers'.
        No. 495, in line 4, after 'employer', insert:
        '(or, as the case may be, each of the employers)'.—[Mr. R. Carr.]

        Division No. 90.]

        AYES

        [12.27 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Crowder, F. P.

        Hastings, Stephen

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Curran, Charles

        Havers, Michael

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Hawkins, Paul

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Astor, John

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Dean, Paul

        Heseltine, Michael

        Awdry, Daniel

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Hicks, Robert

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Dighy, Simon Wingfield

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Dixon, Piers

        Hiley, Joseph

        Bainiel, Lord

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Batsford, Brian

        Drayson, G. B.

        Holland, Philip

        Beamish, Col, Sir Tufton

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Halt, Miss Mary

        Bell, Ronald

        Dykes, Hugh

        Hooson, Emlyn

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Eden, Sir John

        Hordern, Peter

        Benyon, W.

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Hornby, Richard

        Berry, Hn. Anthony

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Biffen, John

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Emery, Peter

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Blaker, Peter

        Eyre, Reginald

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Boardman, Tom (Lelcester, S.W.)

        Farr, John

        Hunt, John

        Body, Richard

        Fell, Anthony

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Boseawen, Robert

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Fidler, Michael

        James, David

        Bowden, Andrew

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

        Jessel, Toby

        Braine, Bernard

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Bray, Ronald

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Jopling, Michael

        Brewis, John

        Fortescue, Tim

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Foster, Sir John

        Kaberry, Sir Donald

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Fowler, Norman

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Fox, Marcus

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Fraser,Rt,Hn.Hugh(St'fford & stone)

        Kilfedder, James

        Bryan, Paul

        Fry, Peter

        Kimball, Marcus

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Buck, Antony

        Gardner, Edward

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Gibson-Watt, David

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Burden, F. A.

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Kirk, Peter

        Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Carlisle, Mark

        Goodhart, Philip

        Knox, David

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Goodhew, Victor

        Lambton, Antony

        Channon, Paul

        Gorst, John

        Lane, David

        Chapman, Sydney

        Gower, Raymond

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Gray, Hamish

        Le Merchant, Spencer

        Churchill, W. S.

        Green, Alan

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Grieve, Percy

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Longden, Gilbert

        Clegg, Walter

        Grylls, Michael

        Loveridge, John

        Cockeram, Eric

        Gummer, Selwyn

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Cooke, Robert

        Gurden, Harold

        MacArthur, Ian

        Coombs, Derek

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Cooper, A. E.

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        McLaren, Martin

        Cordle, John

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        McMaster, Stanley

        Cormack, Patrick

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Costain, A. P.

        Harrison, Col, Sir Harwodd (Eye)

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Critchley, Julian

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

        Crouch, David

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Madden, Martin

        Amendment Proposed, No, 465, in page 9, line 15, leave out from 'Where' to 'in' in line 16 and insert:
        'one or more trade unions desire to enter into an agency shop agreement with an employer'.—[Mr. R. Carr.]
        Question Put, That the Amendment be made:—
        The Committee divided: Ayes 304, Nose 263.

        Madel, David

        Pounder, Rafton

        Tapsell, Peter

        Maginnis, John E.

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Marten, Neil

        Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Mather, Carol

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Maude, Angus

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Tebbit, Norman

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Temple, John M.

        Mawby, Ray

        Raison, Timothy

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn James

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Redmond, Robert

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Tilney, John

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Trew, Peter

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Tungendhat, Christopher

        Moate, Roger

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Molyneaux, James

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Money, Ernie

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Waddington, David

        Monro, Hector

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        More, Jasper

        Rost, Peter

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Royle, Anthony

        Wall, Patrick

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Walters, Dennis

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Mudd, David

        Scott, Nicholas

        Warren, Kenneth

        Murton, Oscar

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Neave, Airey

        Simeons, Charles

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Normanton, Tom

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Nott, John

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Wilkinson, John

        Onslow, Cranley

        Soref, Harold

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Speed, Keith

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Osborn, John

        Spence, John

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Sproat, Iain

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Stainton, Keith

        Worsley, Marcus

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Younger, Hn. George

        Peel, John

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Percival, Ian

        Stokes, John

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Mr. Paul Hawkins and

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Sutcliffe, John

        Mr. Hugh Rossi.

        Pink. R. Bonner

        NOES

        Abse, Leo

        Cohen, Stanley

        Fernyhough, E.

        Albu, Austen

        Coleman, Donald

        Fisher, Mrs.Doris (B'ham,Ladywood)

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Concannon, J. D.

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        Allen, Scholefieid

        Conlan, Bernard

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Foley, Maurice

        Ashton, Joe

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Foot, Michael

        Atkinson, Norman

        Cronin, John

        Ford, Ben

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Forrester, John

        Barnes, Michael

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Barnett, Joel

        Dalyell, Tam

        Freeson, Reginald

        Beaney, Alan

        Darling, Rt. Hn. George

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Benn, Rt, Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Davidson, Arthur

        Garrett, W. E.

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Ginsburg, David

        Bishop, E. S.

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Blenkinsop, Arthur

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Boardman, H. (Leigh)

        Deakins, Eric

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Booth, Albert

        de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Delargy, H. J.

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Bradley, Tom

        Dempsey, James

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

        Doig, Peter

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

        Dormand, J. D.

        Hardy, Peter

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlirgshire, E.)

        Harper, Joseph

        Buchan, Norman

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Driberg, Tom

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        Hattersley, Roy

        Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

        Dunn, James A.

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, w.)

        Dunnett, Jack

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Cant, R. B.

        Eadie, Alex

        Hilton, W. S.

        Carmichael, Neil

        Edelman, Maurice

        Horam, John

        Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Ellis, Tom

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        English, Michael

        Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Evans, Fred

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        996

        997

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Marquand, David

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Hunter, Adam

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

        Meacher, Michael

        Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        Janner, Grevile

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Mendelson, John

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

        Mikardo, Ian

        Sillars, James

        Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

        Millan, Bruce

        Silverman, Julius

        Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Skinner, Dennis

        John, Brynmor

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Small, William

        Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

        Molloy, William

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

        Morgan, Elysian (Cardiganhire)

        Spearing, Nigel

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Spriggs, Leslie

        Jores, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Stallard, A. W.

        Jones, Den (Burnley)

        Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

        Moyle, Roland

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Storehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Murray, Ronald King

        Strang, Gavin

        Kelley, Richard

        Ogden, Eric

        Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

        Kerr, Russell

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        Kinnock, Neil

        O'Mailey, Brian

        Swain, Thomas

        Lambie, David

        Oram, Bert

        Taverne, Dick

        Lamond, James

        Orbach, Maurice

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)

        Latham, Arthur

        Orme, Stanley

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        Lawson, George

        Oswald, Thomas

        Thomson, Rt. Hn, G. (Dundee, E.)

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Owen,Dr.David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Tinn, James

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Paget, R. T.

        Tomney, Frank

        Leonard, Dick

        Palmer, Arthur

        Torney, Tom

        Lestor, Miss Joan

        Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

        Tuck, Raphael

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Urwin, T. W.

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Varley, Eric G.

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

        Lipton, Marcus

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Pendry, Tom

        Wallace, George

        Loughlin, Charles

        Pentland, Norman

        Watkins, David

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Weitzman, David

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

        Wellbeloved, James

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Prescott, John

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        McBride, Neil

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        McCartney, Hugh

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Whitehead, Phillip

        McElhone, Frank

        Probert, Arthur

        Whitlock, William

        McGuire, Michael

        Rankin, John

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        Mackie, John

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Richard, Ivor

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        Maclennan, Robert

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Robertson, John (Paisley)

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor,)

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

        Mr. John Golding and

        Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

        Roper, John

        Mr. William Hamling.

        Marks, Kenneth

        Rose, Paul B.

        Amendment proposed, No. 466, in page 9, line 19, leave out 'of the' and insert 'or more'.—[Mr. R. Carr.]

        Division No. 91.]

        AYES

        [12.40 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Body, Richard

        Channon, Paul

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Boscawen, Robert

        Chapman, Sydney

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Astor, John

        Bowden, Andrew

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Churchill, W. S.

        Awdry, Daniel

        Brains, Bernard

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Bray, Ronald

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Brewis, John

        Cockeram, Eric

        Balniel, Lord

        Brinton, Sir Tatten

        Cooke, Robert

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Coombs, Derek

        Batsford, Brian

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Cooper, A. E.

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Cordle, John

        Bell, Ronald

        Bryan, Paul

        Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&M)

        Cormack, Patrick

        Benyon, W.

        Buck, Antony

        Costain, A. P.

        Berry, Hn. Anthony

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Critchley, Julian

        Biffen, John

        Burden, F. A.

        Crouch, David

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Crowder, F. P.

        Blaker, Peter

        Carlisle, Mark

        Curran, Charles

        998

        999

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Johnson Smith, G, (E. Grinstead)

        Raison, Timothy

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        Jopling, Michael

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Dean, Paul

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Redmond, Robert

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Digby, Simon Winfield

        Kilfedder, James

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Dixon, Piers

        Kimball, Marcus

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Drayson, G. B.

        Kirk, Peter

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Dykes, Hugh

        Knox, David

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Eden, Sir John

        Lambton, Antony

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Lane, David

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Rost, Peter

        Emery, Peter

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Royle, Anthony

        Eyre, Reginald

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Farr, John

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Fell, Anthony

        Longden, Gilbert

        Scott, Nicholas

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        Loveridge, John

        Shaw, Michael (S'b'gh & Whitby)

        Fidler, Michael

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        MacArthur, Ian

        Simeons, Charles

        Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        McLaren, Martin

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Fortescue, Tim

        McMaster, Stanley

        Soref, Harold

        Foster, Sir John

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Speed, Keith

        Fowler, Norman

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Spence, John

        Fox, Marcus

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

        Sproat, Iain

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        Maddan, Martin

        Stainton, Keith

        Fry, Peter

        Madel, David

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        Maginnis, John E.

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Gardner, Edward

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Stoddart-Scoit, Col. Sir M.

        Gibson-Watt, David

        Marten, Neil

        Stokes, John

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        Mather, Carol

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Maude, Angus

        Sutcliffe, John

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Tapsell, Peter

        Goodhart, Phillip

        Mawby, Ray

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Goodhew, Victor

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Gorst, John

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Gower, Raymond

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Gray, Hamish

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Tebbit, Norman

        Green, Alan

        Mitchel,Lt.Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W.)

        Temple, John M.

        Grieve, Percy

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Moate, Roger

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Grylls, Michael

        Molyneaux, James

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Money, Ernie

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Gurden, Harold

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Tilney, John

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Monro, Hector

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Trew, Peter

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Mudd, David

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Murton, Oscar

        Waddington, David

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Havers, Michael

        Neave, Airey

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Hawkins, Paul

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Normanton, Tom

        Wall, Patrick

        Heseltine, Michael

        Nott, John

        Walters, Dennis

        Hicks, Robert

        Onslow, Cranley

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Warren, Kenneth

        Hiley, Joseph

        Osborn, John

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Holland, Philip

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Hordern, Peter

        Peel, John

        Wilkinson, John

        Hornby, Richard

        Percival, Ian

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Pounder, Rafton

        Worsley, Marcus

        Hunt, John

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Younger, Hn. George

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

        James, David

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Mr. Jasper More and

        Jessel, Toby

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Mr. Walter Clegg.

        1000

        1001

        NOES

        Abse, Leo

        Ford, Ben

        Marquand, David

        Albu, Austen

        Forrester, John

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Allen, Scholefield

        Freeson, Reginald

        Meacher, Michael

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Garrett, W. E.

        Mendelson, John

        Ashton, Joe

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Mikardo, Ian

        Atkinson, Norman

        Ginsburg, David

        Millan, Bruce

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Barnes, Michael

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Barnett, Joel

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Molloy, William

        Beaney, Alan

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

        Bishop, E. S.

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Moyle, Roland

        Blerkinsop, Arthur

        Hardy, Peter

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Boardman, H. (Leigh)

        Harper, Joseph

        Murray, Ronald King

        Booth, Albert

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Ogden, Eric

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Hattersley, Roy

        O' Malley, Brian

        Bradley, Tom

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Oram, Bert

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Orbach, Maurice

        Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

        Hilton, W. S.

        Orme, Stanley

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Horam, John

        Oswald, Thomas

        Buchan, Norman

        Houghton, Rt, Hn. Douglas

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Paget, R. T.

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Palmer, Arthur

        Callaghan, Rt Hn. James

        Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Parry, Laurie

        Cant, R. B.

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Carmichael, Neil

        Hunter, Adam

        Pendry, Tom

        Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

        Pentland, Norman

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Janner, Greville

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        Jegen,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P.cras,S.)

        Prescott, John

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Cohen, Stanley

        Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Coleman, Donald

        John, Brynmor

        Probert, Arthur

        Concannon, J. D.

        Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

        Rankin, John

        Conlan, Bernard

        Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

        Rankin, John

        Carbet, Mrs. Freda

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Richard, Ivor

        Cronin, John

        Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Robertson, John (Paisley)

        Dalyell, Tam

        Kelley, Richard

        Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Darling, Rt. Hn. George

        Kerr, Russell

        Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

        Davidson, Arthur

        Kinnock, Neil

        Roper, John

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Lambie, David

        Rose, Paul B.

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Lamond, James

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Latham, Arthur

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Davies, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Lawson, George

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        Deakins, Eric

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Short, Rt. H n. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        Delargy, H. J.

        Leonard, Dick

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Lester, Miss Joan

        Sillars, James

        Dempsey, James

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Silverman, Julius

        Doig, Peter

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

        Skinner, Dennis

        Dormand, J. D.

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Small, William

        Douglas, Dick(Stirlingshire, E.)

        Lipton, Marcus

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Spearing, Nigel

        Driberg, Tom

        Loughlin, Charles

        Spriggs, Leslie

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        Stallard, A. W.

        Dunn, James A.

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Dunnett, Jack

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Eddie, Alex

        McBride, Neil

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Edelman, Maurice

        McCartney, Hugh

        Strang, Gavin

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        McElhone, Frank

        Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        McGuire, Michael

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        Ellis, Tom

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Swain, Thomas

        English, Michael

        Mackie, John

        Taverne, Dick

        Evans, Fred

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

        Fernyhough, E.

        Maclennan, Robert

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Tinn, James

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Tomney, Frank

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Torney, Tom

        Foley, Maurice

        Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

        Urwin, T. W.

        Foot, Michael

        Marks, Kenneth

        Varley, Eric G.

        1002

        1003

        Wainwright, Edwin

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Whitehead, Phillip

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Wallace, George

        Whitlock, William

        Watkins, David

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Weitzman, David

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        Mr. John Golding and

        Wellbeloved, James

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        Mr. William Hamling.

        Further Amendments made: Amendment No. 467, in page 9, line 20, at end insert 'trade unions or the'.
        Amendment No. 468, in line 25, after 'union', inert 'or trade unions'.
        Amendment No. 469, in line 32, leave out 'or' and insert:
        '(or, as the case may be, each of the trade unions) or the'.

        Division No. 92.]

        AYES

        [12.54 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Crouch, David

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Crowder, F. P.

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Curran, Charles

        Hastings, Stephen

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Havers, Michael

        Astor, John

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        Hawkins, Paul

        Atkins, Humphrey

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Awdry, Daniel

        Dean, Paul

        Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Heseltine, Michael

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Digby, Simon Wingfield

        Hicks, Robert

        Balniel, Lord

        Dixon, Piers

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        Hiley, Joseph

        Batsford, Brian

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Drayson, G. B.

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Bell, Ronald

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Holland, Philip

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Eden, Sir John

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Benyon, W.

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Hordern, Peter

        Berry, Hn. Anthony

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Hamby, Richard

        Bitten, John

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon Tyne,N.)

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn. Dame Patricia

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Emery, Peter

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Blaker, Peter

        Eyre, Reginald

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Farr, John

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Body, Richard

        Fell, Anthony

        Hunt, John

        Boscawen, Robert

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Fidler, Michael

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Bowden, Andrew

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        James, David

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Braine, Bernard

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Jessel, Toby

        Bray, Ronald

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Brewis, John

        Fortescue, Tim

        Jopling, Michael

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Foster, Sir John

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Fowler, Norman

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Fox, Marcus

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        Kelfedder, James

        Bryan, Paul

        Fry, Peter

        Kimball, Marcus

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Buck, Antony

        Gardner, Edward

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Gibson-Watt, David

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Burden, F. A.

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        Kirk, Peter

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Carlisle, Mark

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        Knox, David

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Goodhart, Philip

        Lambton, Antony

        Channon, Paul

        Goodhew, Victor

        Lane, David

        Chapman, Sydney

        Gorst, John

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Gower, Raymond

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Churchill, W. S.

        Gray, Hamish

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Green, Alan

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Grieve, Percy

        Longden, Gilbert

        Clegg, Walter

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Loveridge, John

        Cockeram, Eric

        Grylls, Michael

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Cooke, Robert

        Gummer, Selwyn

        MacArthur, Ian

        Coombs, Derek

        Gurden, Harold

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Cooper, A. E.

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        McLaren, Martin

        Cordle, John

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        McMaster, Stanley

        Cormack, Patrick

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Costain, A. P.

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Critchley, Julian

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

        Amendment No. 470, in line 39, after 'union', insert 'or trade unions'.—[Mr. R. Carr.]
        Question put, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill:—
        The Committee divided: Ayes 300, Noes 260.

        Maddan, Martin

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Tapsell, Peter

        Madel, David

        Pounder, Rafton

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Maginnis, John E.

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow,Cathcart)

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Marten, Neil

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Mather, Carol

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Tebbit, Norman

        Maude, Angus

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Temple, John M.

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Raison, Timothy

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn, Mrs. Margaret

        Mawby, Ray

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Maxweil-Hyslop, R. J.

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Redmond, Robert

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Tilney, John

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Trew, Peter

        Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Turton Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Moate, Roger

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Vaughan Dr. Gerard

        Molyneaux, James

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Money, Ernie

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Waddington, David

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        More, Jasper

        Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Rost, Peter

        Wall, Patrick

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Royle, Anthony

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Warren, Kenneth

        Mudd, David

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Murton, Oscar

        Scott, Nicholas

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &Whitby)

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Neave, Airey

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Simmons, Charles

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Normanton, Tom

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Wilkinson, John

        Nott, John

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Onslow, Cranley

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Soref, Harold

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Osborn, John

        Spence, John

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Sproat, Iain

        Worsley, Marcus

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Stainton, Keith

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Younger, Hon. George

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Peel, John

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Percival, Ian

        Stokes, John

        Mr. Hector Monro and

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Mr. Keith Speed.

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Sutcliffe, John

        NOES

        Abse, Leo

        Coleman, Donald

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        Albu, Austen

        Concannon, J. D.

        Foley, Maurice

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Conlan, Bernard

        Foot, Michael

        Allen, Scholefield

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Ford, Ben

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Forrester, John

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Ashton, Joe

        Cronin, John

        Freeson, Reginald

        Atkinson, Norman

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

        Garrett, W. E.

        Barnes, Michael

        Dalyell, Tam

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Barnett, Joel

        Darling, Rt. Hn. George

        Ginsburg, David

        Beaney, Alan

        Davidson, Arthur

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Bishop, E. S.

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Bienkinsop, Arthur

        Deakins, Eric

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Boardman, H. (Leigh)

        de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Booth, Albert

        Delargy, H. J.

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Bottemley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Hardy, Peter

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Dempsey, James

        Harper, Joseph

        Bradley, Tom

        Doig, Peter

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

        Dormand, J. D.

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

        Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Hattersley, Roy

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Buchan, Norman

        Driberg, Tom

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        Hilton, W. S.

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        Dunn, James A.

        Horam, John

        Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

        Eadie, Alex

        Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Campbell, I. Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Cant R. B.

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Carmichael, Neil

        Ellis, Tom

        Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        English, Michael

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Evans, Fred

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Fernyhough, E.

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Clark, David (Celne Valley)

        Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

        Hunter, Adam

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

        Cohen, Stanley

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        Janner, Greville

        1006

        1007

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

        Meacher, Michael

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

        Mendelson, John

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        John, Brynmor

        Mikardo, Ian

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

        Millan, Bruce

        Sillars, James

        Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Silverman, Julius

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Skinner, Dennis

        Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

        Molloy, William

        Small, William

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Spearing, Nigel

        Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Spriggs, Leslie

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Morris, Rt. Hn, John (Aberavon)

        Stallard, A. W.

        Kelley, Richard

        Moyle, Roland

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Kerr, Russell

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Kinnock, Neil

        Murray, Ronald King

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Lambie, David

        Ogden, Eric

        Strang, Gavin

        Lamond, James

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

        Latham, Arthur

        O'Malley, Brian

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        Lawson, George

        Oram, Bert

        Swain, Thomas

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Orbach, Maurice

        Taverne, Dick

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Orme, Stanley

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.Ceorge (Cardiff, W.)

        Leonard, Dick

        Oswald, Thomas

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        Lestor, Miss Joan

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Paget, P. T.

        Tinn, James

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

        Palmer, Arthur

        Tomney, Frank

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Torney, Tom

        Lipton, Marcus

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Urwin T. W.

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Varley Eric G.

        Loughlin, Charles

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Wainwright, Edwin

        Pendry, Tom

        Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        Pentland, Norman

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Wallace, George

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

        Watkins, David

        McBride, Neil

        Prescott, John

        Weitzman, David

        McCartney, Hugh

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Wellbeloved, James

        McElhone, Frank

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        McGuire, Michael

        Probers, Arthur

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Rankin, John

        Whitehead, Phillip

        Mackie, John

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Whitlock, William

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Maclennan, Robert

        Richard, Ivor

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Robertson, John (Paisley)

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E,)

        Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

        Marks, Kenneth

        Roper, John

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Marquand, David

        Rose, Paul B.

        Mr. William Hamling and

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Mr. John Golding.

        Clause 11, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

      Clause 12

        BALLOT AS TO AGENCY SHOP AGREEMENT
        Amendments made: No. 471, in page 10, line 17, leave out 'or' and insert:'

        Division No. 93.]

        AYES

        [1.8 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Benyon, W.

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Berry, Hn. Anthony

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Biffen, John

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Bryan, Paul

        Astor, John

        Blaker, Peter

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Buck, Antony

        Awdrey, Daniel

        Body, Richard

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Boscawen, Robert

        Burden, F. A.

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Balniel, Lord

        Bowden, Andrew

        Carlisle, Mark

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Batsford, Brian

        Braine, Bernard

        Channon, Paul

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Bray, Ronald

        Chapman, Sydney

        Bell, Ronald

        Brewis, John

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        '(or, as the case may be, each of the trade unions) or the'.
        No. 472, in line 33, after 'union' insert 'or trade unions'.—[Mr. R. Carr.]
        Question put, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill:—
        The Committee divided: Ayes, 300, Noes 194.

        Churchill, W. S.

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Holland, Philip

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Clegg, Walter

        Hordern, Peter

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Cockeram, Eric

        Hornby, Richard

        Peel, John

        Cooke, Robert

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Percival, Ian

        Coombs, Derek

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Peyton, Rt. Hn, John

        Cooper, A. E.

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Cordle, John

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        pink, R. Bonner

        Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Hunt, John

        Pounder, Rafton

        Cormack, Patrick

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Costain, A. P.

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Critchley, Julian

        James, David

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Crouch, David

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Crowder, F. P.

        Jessel, Toby

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Curran, Charles

        Johnson Smith G. (E. Grinstead)

        Raison, Timothy

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Jopling, Michael

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        d'Aeigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Redmond, Robert

        Dean, Paul

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Kllfedder, James

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Digby, Simon Wingfield

        Kimball, Marcus

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Dixon, Piers

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Drsyson, G. B.

        Kirk, Peter

        Ridsdale, Julian

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Kitson, Timothy

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Dykes, Hugh

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Eden, Sir John

        Knox, David

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Lambton, Antony

        Rost, Peter

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Lane, David

        Royle, Anthony

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Emery, Peter

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Eyre, Reginald

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Scott, Nicholas

        Farr, John

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Fell, Anthony

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        Longden, Gilbert

        Simeon, Charles

        Fidler, Michael

        Loveridge, John

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

        MacArthur, Ian

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Soref, Harold

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        McLaren, Martin

        Speed, Keith

        Fortescue, Tim

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Spence, John

        Foster, Sir John

        McMaster, Stanley

        Sproat, Iain

        Fowler, Norman

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Stainton, Keith

        Fox, Marcus

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Beeper)

        Fry, Peter

        Maddan, Martin

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        Madel, David

        Stokes, John

        Gardner, Edward

        Maginnis, John E.

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Gibson-Watt, David

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Sutcliffe, John

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        Marten, Neil

        Tapsell, Peter

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Mather, Carol

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        Maude, Angus

        Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Goodhart, Philip

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Goodhew, Victor

        Mawby, Ray

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Gorst, John

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Tebbit, Norman

        Gower, Raymond

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Temple, John M.

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Gray, Hamish

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Green, Alan

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, 8.)

        Grieve, Percy

        Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Tilney, John

        Grylls, Michael

        Moate, Roger

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Molyneaux, James

        Trew, Peter

        Gurden, Harold

        Money, Ernie

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Monro, Hector

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        More, Jasper

        Waddington, David

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Mudd, David

        Wall, Patrick

        Hastings, Stephen

        Murton, Oscar

        Walters, Dennis

        Havers, Michael

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Hawkins, Paul

        Neave, Airey

        Warren, Kenneth

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Heseltine, Michael

        Normanton, Tom

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Hicks, Robert

        Nott, John

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Onslow, Cranley

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Hiley, Joseph

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Wilkinson, John

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Osborn, John

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Worsley, Marcus

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Mr. Bernard Weatherill and

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Younger, Hn. George

        Mr. Hugh Rossi

        NOES

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Lamond, James

        Prescott, John

        Allen, Scholefield

        Latham, Arthur

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Lawson, George

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Ashton, Joe

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Probert, Arthur

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Rankin, John

        Barnett, Joel

        Leonard, Dick

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Beaney, Alan

        Lestor, Miss Joan

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Richard, Ivor

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Booth, Albert

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Bottomly, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Lipton, Marcus

        Robertson, John (Paisley)

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Loughlin, Charles

        Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        Roper, John

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Rose, Paul B.

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Mahon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        McBride, Neil

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        McCartney, Hugh

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        Coleman, Donald

        McElhone, Frank

        Short,Rt.Hn.Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        Concannon, J. D.

        McGuire, Michael

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        Conlan, Bernard

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Mackie, John

        Sillars, James

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Silverman, Julius

        Cronin, John

        Maclennan, Robert

        Skinner, Dennis

        Dalyell, Tam

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Small, William

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Spearing, Nigel

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Spriggs, Leslie

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

        Stallard, A. W.

        Deakins, Eric

        Marks, Kenneth

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Delargy, H. J.

        Marquand, David

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Dell, Rt. Hn, Edmund

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Dempsey, James

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Strang, Gavin

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Meacher, Michael

        Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

        Driberg, Tom

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        Eadie, Alex

        Mendelson, John

        Swain, Thomas

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        Mikardo, Ian

        Taverne, Dick

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        Millan, Bruce

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)

        English, Michael

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        Evans, Fred

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Fernyhough, E.

        Molloy, William

        Tinn, James

        Foot, Michael

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Tomney, Frank

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn, P. C.

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Torney, Tom

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Urwin, T. W.

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

        Varley, Eric G.

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Moyle, Roland

        Wainwright, Edwin

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

        Hardy, Peter

        Murray, Ronald King

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Harper, Joseph

        Ogden, Eric

        Wallace, George

        Hattersley, Roy

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Watkins, David

        Heffer, Eric S.

        O'Malley, Brian

        Weitzman, David

        Hilton, W. S.

        Oram, Bert

        Wellbeloved, James

        Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Orbach, Maurice

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Orme, Stanley

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Oswald, Thomas

        Whitehead, Phillip

        Hunter, Adam

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Whitlock, William

        Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

        Paget, R. T.

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Janner, Greville

        Palmer, Arthur

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        John, Brynmor

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Pendry, Tom

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Pentland, Norman

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Kelley, Richard

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Mr. William Hamling and

        Kinnock, Neil

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg

        Mr. John Golding.

        Lambie, David

        Clause 12, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

      Clause 13

        EFFECT OF BALLOT UNDER S. 12
        Amendment made: No. 473, in page 11, line 23, after 'union', insert:

        Division No. 94.]

        AYES

        [1.20 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Dykes, Hugh

        Jopling, Michael

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Eden, Sir John

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Astor, John

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Kilfedder, James

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Emery, Peter

        Kimball, Marcus

        Awdry, Daniel

        Eyre, Reginald

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Farr, John

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Fell, Anthony

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Balniel, Lord

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        Kirk, Peter

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Fidler, Michael

        Kitson, Timothy

        Batsford, Brian

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

        Knox, David

        Bell, Ronald

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Lambton, Antony

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Lane, David

        Benyon, W.

        Foster, Sir John

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Berry, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Fowler, Norman

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Biffen, John

        Fox, Marcus

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        Lewis, Kenneth(Rutland)

        Blaker, Peter

        Fry, Peter

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        Longden, Gilbert

        Body, Richard

        Gardner, Edward

        Loveridge, John

        Boscawen, Robert

        Gibson-Watt, David

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        McArthur, Ian

        Bowden, Andrew

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        McLaren, Martin

        Braine, Bernard

        Goodhart, Philip

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Bray, Ronald

        Goodhew, Victor

        McMaster, Stanley

        Brewis, John

        Gorst, John

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Gower, Raymond

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Gray, Hamish

        Madden, Martin

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Green, Alan

        Madel, David

        Bryan, Paul

        Grieve, Percy

        Maginnis, John E.

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Buck, Antony

        Grylls, Michael

        Marten, Neil

        Buius, Eir Eric

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Mather, Carol

        Burden, F. A.

        Gurden, Harold

        Maude, Angus

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Carlisle, Mark

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Mawby, Ray

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Channon, Paul

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Chapman, Sydney

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Chataway, Fit. Hn. Christopher

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Mitchell, Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

        Churchill, W. S.

        Hasethurst, Alan

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Clerk, William (Surrey, E.)

        Hastings, Stephen

        Moate, Roger

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Havers, Michael

        Molyneaux, James

        Corkeram, Eric

        Hawkins, Paul

        Money, Ernie

        Cooke, Robert

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Coombs, Derek

        Heseltine, Michael

        Monro, Hector

        Cooper, A. E.

        Hicks, Robert

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Cordle, John

        Higgins, Terence L.

        More, Jasper

        Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Hiley, Joseph

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Cormack, Patrick

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Costain, A. P.

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Critchley, Julian

        Holland, Philip

        Mudd, David

        Crouch, David

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Murton, Oscar

        Crowder, F. P.

        Hordern, Peter

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Curran, Charles

        Hornby, Richard

        Neave, Airey

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Normanton, Tom

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Nott, John

        Dean, Paul

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Onslow, Cranley

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Hunt, John

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Digby, Simon Wingfield

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Osborn, John

        Dixton, Piers

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        James, David

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Drayson, G. B.

        Jessel, Toby

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Peel, John

        (or, as the case may be, any of the trade unions)'.—[Mr. R. Carr.]
        Question put, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill:—
        The Committee divided: Ayes 300, Noes 193.

        Percival, Ian

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Trew, Peter

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Simeons, Charles

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Pounder, Rafton

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Waddington, David

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Soref, Harold

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Speed, Keith

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Spence, John

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Sproat, Iain

        Wall, Patrick

        Raison, Timothy

        Stainton, Keith

        Walters, Dennis

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Warren, Kenneth

        Redmond, Robert

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Stokes, John

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Sutcliffe, John

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Tapsell, Peter

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Wilkineon, John

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Woirige-Gordon, Patrick

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Tebbit, Norman

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Temple, John M.

        Worsley, Marcus

        Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Rost, Peter

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Younger, Hn. George

        Royle, Anthony

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Tilney, John

        Mr. Walter Clegg and

        Scott, Nicholas

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Mr. Tim Fortescue.

        NOES

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Allen, Sclholefield

        Hilton, W. S.

        Mendelson, John

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Mikardo, Ian

        Ashton, Joe

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        Milan, Bruce

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Barnett, Joel

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Beaneey, Alan

        Hunter, Adam

        Molloy, William

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Booth, Albert

        Janner, Greville

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Moyle, Roland

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Murray, Ronald King

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Ogden, Eric

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Kelley, Richard

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Concannon, J. D.

        Lambie, David

        O'Malley, Brian

        Conlan, Bernard

        Lamond, James

        Oram, Bert

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Latham, Arthur

        Orbach, Maurice

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Lawson, George

        Orme, Stanley

        Cronin, John

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Oswald, Thomas

        Dalyell, Tam

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Leonard, Dick

        Paget, R. T.

        Lestor, Miss Joan

        Palmer, Arthur

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Deakins, Eric

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Delargy, H. J.

        Lipton, Marcus

        Pearl, Rt. Hn, Fred

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Pendry, Tom

        Dempsey, James

        Loughlin, Charles

        Pentland, Norman

        Doig, Peter

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Douglas, Dick (Stiriingshire, E.)

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Prescott, John

        Driberg, Tom

        McBride, Neil

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Eadie, Alex

        McCartney, Hugh

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Edwards, Robert ((Bilston)

        McElhone, Frank

        Probert, Arthur

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        McGuire, Michael

        Rankin, John

        Ellis, Tom

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        English, Michael

        Mackie, John

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Evans, Fred

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Richard, Ivor

        Fernyhough, E.

        Maclerman, Robert

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Foot, Michael

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Forrester, John

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n & R'dnor)

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Roper, John

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Mailalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

        Rose, Paul B.

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Marks, Kenneth

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Marquand, David

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Harper, Joseph

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        Hattersley, Roy

        Meacher, Michael

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        1016

        1017

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        Taverne, Dick

        Wellbeloved, James

        Sillars, James

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        Silverman, Julius

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Skinner, Dennis

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Whitehead, Phillip

        Small, William

        Tinn James

        Whitlock, William

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Tomney, Frank

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Spearing, Nigel

        Tomney, Tom

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        Spriggs, Leslie

        Urwin, T. W.

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        Stallard, A. W.

        Varley, Eric G.

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Wainwright, Edwin

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Strang, Gavin

        Wallace, George

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

        Watkins, David

        Mr. John Golding and

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        Weitzman, David

        Mr. William Hamling.

        Swain, Thomas

        Clause 13, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

      Clause 14

        APPLICATION FOR BALLOT ON CONTINU ANCE OF AGENCY SHOP AGREEMENT
        Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
        The Committee divided: Ayes 299, Noes 203.

        Division No. 95.]

        AYES

        [1.32 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Churchill, W. S.

        Fox, Marcus

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Fry, Peter

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        Clegg, Walter

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        Astor, John

        Cockeram, Eric

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Cooke, Robert

        Gibson-Watt, David

        Awdry, Daniel

        Coombs, Derek

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Cooper, A. E.

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Cordle, John

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        Balniel, Lord

        Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Goodhart, Philip

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Cormack, Patrick

        Gorst, John

        Batsford, Brian

        Costain, A. P.

        Gower, Raymond

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Critchley, Julian

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Bell, Ronald

        Crouch, David

        Gray, Hamish

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Crowder, F. P.

        Green, Alan

        Benyon, W.

        Curran, Charles

        Grieve, Percy

        Berry, Hon. Anthony

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Biffen, John

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        Grylls, Michael

        Biggs-Davison, John

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Blaker, Peter

        Dean, Paul

        Gurden, Harold

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Body, Richard

        Digby, Simon Wingfield

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Boscawen, Robert

        Dixon, Piers

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Bowden, Andrew

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Drayson, G. B.

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Braine, Bernard

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Bray, Ronald

        Dykes, Hugh

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Brewis, John

        Eden, Sir John

        Hastings, Stephen

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Havers, Michael

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Hawkins, Paul

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Elliot, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Emery, Peter

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Bryan, Paul

        Eyre, Reginald

        Heseltine, Michael

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

        Farr, John

        Hicks, Robert

        Buck, Antony

        Fell, Anthony

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        Hiley, Joseph

        Burden, F. A.

        Fidler, Michael

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Carlisle, Mark

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Holland, Phillip

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Channon, Paul

        Fortescue, Tim

        Hordern, Peter

        Chapman, Sydney

        Foster, Sir John

        Hornby, Richard

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Fowler, Norman

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)(Guildford)

        1018

        1019

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Money, Ernie

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Hunt, John

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Monro, Hector

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Soref, Harold

        James, David

        More, Jasper

        Spence, John

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Sproat, Iain

        Jessel, Toby

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Stainton, Keith

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Jopling, Michael

        Mudd, David

        Stewart-Smith, D. C. (Belper)

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Murton, Oscar

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Stokes, John

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Neave, Airey

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Kilfedder, James

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Sutcliffe, John

        Kimball, Marcus

        Normanton, Tom

        Tapsell, Peter

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Nott, John

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Onslow, Cranley

        Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Kirk, Peter

        Osborn, John

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Kitson, Timothy

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Tebbit, Norman

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Temple, John M.

        Knox, David

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Lambton, Antony

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Lane, David

        Peel, John

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Percival, Ian

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Peyton, Rt. Hn, John

        Tilney, John

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Trew, Peter

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Pounder, Rafton

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Longden, Gilbert

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Loveridge, John

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        MacArthur, Ian

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Waddington, David

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        McLaren, Martin

        Raison, Timothy

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        McMaster, Stanley

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Wall, Patrick

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Redmond, Robert

        Walters, Dennis

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Ward, Dame Irene

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Warren, Kenneth

        Madden, Martin

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Madel, David

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Maginnis, John E.

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Marten, Neil

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Mather, Carol

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Wilkinson, John

        Maude, Angus

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Wood, Rt. Ho. Richard

        Mawby, Ray

        Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Rost, Peter

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Royle, Anthony

        Worsley, Marcus

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Younger, Hn. George

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Scott, Nicholas

        Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'h'gh & Whitby)

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Mr. Victor Goodhew and

        Moate, Roger

        Simeons, Charles

        Mr. Keith Speed.

        Molyneaux, James

        NOES

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Forrester, John

        Allen, Scholefield

        Dalyell, Tam

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Barnett, Joel

        Deakins, Eric

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Beaney, Alan

        Delargy, H. J.

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Bern, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Dempsey, James

        Hardy, Peter

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Doig, Peter

        Harper, Joseph

        Booth, Albert

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Hattersley, Roy

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tte-upon-Tyne,W.)

        Driberg, Tom

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Dunn, James A.

        Hilton, W. S.

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Dunnett, Jack

        Houghton, Rt. Hn, Douglas

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Eadie, Alex

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        Ellis, Tom

        Hunter, Adam

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        English, Michael

        Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

        Concannon, J. D.

        Evans, Fred

        Janner, Greville

        Conlan, Bernard

        Fernyhough, E.

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Cronin, John

        Foley, Maurice

        Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

        1020

        1021

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Molloy, William

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Sillars, James

        Kelley, Richard

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Silverman, Julius

        Kinnock, Neil

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Skinner, Dennis

        Lambie, David

        Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

        Small, William

        Lamond, James

        Moyle, Roland

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Latham, Arthur

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Spearing, Nigel

        Lawson George

        Murray, Ronald King

        Spriggs, Leslie

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Ogden, Eric

        Stallard, A. W.

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Leonard, Dick

        O'Malley, Brian

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Lestor, Miss Joan

        Oram, Bert

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn, John

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Orbach, Maurice

        Strang, Gavin

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

        Orme, Stanley

        Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

        Lewis, Ron. (Carlisle)

        Oswald, Thomas

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        Lipton, Marcus

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Swain, Thomas

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Paget, R. T.

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

        Loughlin, Charles

        Palmer, Arthur

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        Lyun, Alexander W. (York)

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Tinn, James

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Tomney, Frank

        McBride, Neil

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Torney, Tom

        McCartney, Hugh

        Pendry, Tom

        Urwin, T. W.

        McElhone, Frank

        Pentland, Norman

        Varley, Eric G.

        McGuire, Michael

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Wainwright, Edwin

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

        Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

        Mackie, John

        Prescott, John

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Wallace, George

        Maclennan, Robert

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Watkins, David

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Probert, Arthur

        Weitzman, David

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Rankin, John

        Wellbeloved, James

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        Mahan, Simon (Bootle)

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        White, dames (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

        Richard, Ivor

        Whitehead, Phillip

        Marks, Kenneth

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Whitlock, William

        Marquand, David

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Robertson, John (Paisley)

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        Meacher, Michael

        Roper, John

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Rose, Paul B.

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        Mendelson, John

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Mikardo, Ian

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Millan, Bruce

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        Mr. William Hamling and

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        Mr. John Golding.

        Clause 14, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

      Clause 15

        BALLOT ON APPLICATION UNDER S. 14
        Amendment made: No. 474, in page 12, line 34, leave out '(a)'.—[Mr. Dudley Smith.]
        Amendment proposed: No. 475, in page 12, line 35, leave out from beginning to 'shall' in line 36 and insert:
        'directing—
        (a) that no agency shop agreement in respect of workers of any description comprised

        Division No. 96.]

        AYES

        [1.44 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Bell, Ronald

        Braine, Bernard

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Bray, Ronald

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Benyon, W.

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        Berry, Hn. Anthony

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Astor, John

        Biffen, John

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Awdry, Daniel

        Blaker, Peter

        Bryan, Paul

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Body, Richard

        Buck, Antony

        Bolniel, Lord

        Boscawen, Robert

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Burden, F. A.

        Botsford, Brian

        Bowden, Andrew

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Carlisle, Mark

        in the ballot shall, during the period of two years beginning with the date on which the result of the ballot was so reported, be made between the employer and the trade union (or, as the case may be, any of the trade unions) who were parties to the agency shop agreement to which the ballot related, and
        (b) that any such agency shop agreement purporting to be made between those parties during that period shall be void; and during that period the Industrial Court'.—[Mr. Dudley Smith.]
        Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
        The Committee divided: Ayes 298, Noes 250.

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Channon, Paul

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Chapman, Sydney

        Holland, Philip

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Hordern, Peter

        Peel, John

        Churchill, W. S.

        Hornby, Richard

        Percival, Ian

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Cleg, Walter

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Cockeram, Eric

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Pounder, Rafton

        Cooke, Robert

        Hunt, John

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Coombs, Derek

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Cooper, A. E.

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Cordle, John

        James, David

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Cormack, Patrick

        Jessel, Toby

        Raison, Timothy

        Costain, A. P.

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Critchley, Julian

        Jopling, Michael

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Crouch, David

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Redmond, Robert

        Crowder, F. P.

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Curran, Charles

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Kilfedder, James

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        Kimball, Marcus

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Dean, Paul

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Digby, Simon Wingfield

        Kirk, Peter

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Dixon, Piers

        Kitson, Timothy

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Knox, David

        Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

        Drayson, G. B.

        Lambton, Antony

        Rost, Peter

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Lane, David

        Royle, Anthony

        Dykes, Hugh

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Eden, Sir John

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        St. John-Stevan, Norman

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Scott, Nicholas

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Emery, Peter

        Longden, Gilbert

        Simeons, Charles

        Eyre, Reginald

        Loveridge, John

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Farr, John

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Fell, Anthony

        MacArthur, Ian

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Soref, Harold

        Fidler, Michael

        McLaren, Martin

        Speed, Keith

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Spence, John

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charlea

        McMaster, Stanley

        Sproat, Iain

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Stainton, Keith

        Fortescue, Tim

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Foster, Sir John

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Fowler, Norman

        Maddan, Martin

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Fox, Marcus

        Madel, David

        Stokes, John

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        Maginnis, John E.

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Fry, Peter

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Sutcliffe, John

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        Marten, Neil

        Tapsell, Peter

        Gardner, Edward

        Mather, Carol

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Gibson-Watt, David

        Maude, Angus

        Taylor, Edward M. (G' gow,Cathcart)

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Mawby, Ray

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        Goodhart, Philip

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Tebbit, Norman

        Goodhew, Victor

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Temple, John M.

        Gorst, John

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Gower, Raymond

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S)

        Gray, Hamish

        Mitchell, Lt.-C.(Aberdeenshire, W.)

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Green, Alan

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Tilney, John

        Grieve, Percy

        Moate, Roger

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Molyneaux, James

        Trew, Peter

        Grylls, Michael

        Money, Ernie

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Monks, Mrs. Connle

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Gurden, Harold

        Monro, Hector

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Vickers, Dame John

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        More, Jasper

        Waddington, David

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Mudd, David

        Wall, Patrick

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Murton, Oscar

        Walters, Dennis

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Hastings, Stephen

        Neave, Airey

        Warren, Kenneth

        Havers, Michael

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Normanton, Tom

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Heseltine, Michael

        Nott, John

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Hicks, Robert

        Onslow, Cranley

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Wilkinson, John

        Hiley, Joseph

        Osborn, John

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        1024

        1025

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Worsley, Marcus

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Mr. Paul Hawkins and

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Younger, Hn. George

        Mr. Bernard Weatherill.

        NOES

        Albu, Austen

        Ford, Ben

        Marquand, David

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Forrester, John

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Allen, Scholefield

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Freeson, Reginald

        Meacher, Michael

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Ashton, Joe

        Garrett, W. E.

        Mendelson, John

        Atkinson, Norman

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Mikardo, Ian

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Ginsburg, David

        Millan, Bruce

        Barnes, Michael

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Barnett, Joel

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Beaney, Alan

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Molloy, William

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Morris, Charles R. (Openahaw)

        Bishop, E. S.

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Morris, Rt. Hn, John (Aberavon)

        Blenkinsop, Arthur

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Moyle, Roland

        Boardman, H. (Leigh)

        Hardy, Peter

        Mulley, Rt. Hn, Frederick

        Booth, Albert

        Harper, Joseph

        Murray, Ronald King

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Ogden, Eric

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

        O'Halloran Michael

        Bradley, Tom

        Hattersley, Roy

        O'Malley, Brian

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Oram, Bert

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Orbach, Maurice

        Buchan, Norman

        Hilton, W. S.

        Orme, Stanley

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Horam, John

        Oswald, Thomas

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

        Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Paget, R. T.

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Palmer, Arthur

        Cant, R. B.

        Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Carmichael, Neil

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Pendry, Tom

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Hunter, Adam

        Pentland, Norman

        Clark, David (Coln Valley)

        Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Janner, Greville

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg

        Cohen, Stanley

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Prescott, John

        Coleman, Donald

        Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Concannon, J. D.

        Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechfortd)

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Conlan, Bernard

        John, Brynmor

        Probert, Arthur

        Corbet, Mrs, Freda

        Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

        Rankin, John

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Cronin, John

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Richard, Ivor

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Dalyell, Tam

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Roberts, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Darling, Rt. Hn, George

        Kelley, Richard

        Roper, John

        Davidson, Arthur

        Kerr, Russell

        Rose, Paul B.

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Kinnock, Neil

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Lambie, David

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Lamond, James

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C)

        Latham, Arthur

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        Deakins, Eric

        Lawson, George

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Silars, James

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Leonard, Dick

        Silverman, Julius

        Doig, Peter

        Lestor, Miss John

        Skinner, Dennis

        Dormand, J. D.

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Small, William

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Spearing, Nigal

        Driberg, Tom

        Lipton, Marcus

        Spriggs, Leslie

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Stallard, A. W.

        Dunn, James A.

        Loughtin, Charles

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Dunnett, Jack

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Eadie, Alex

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Storehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Edelman, Maurice

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Strang, Gavin

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        McCartney, Hugh

        Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        McElhone, Frank

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        Ellis, Tom

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Swain, Thomas

        English, Michael

        Mackie, John

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

        Evans, Fred

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        Fernyhough, E.

        Maclennan, Robert

        Thompson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Thin, James

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Tomney, Frank

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Torney, Tom

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Urwin, T. W.

        Foley, Maurice

        Mallatieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

        Varley, Eric G.

        Foot, Michael

        Marks, Kenneth

        Wainwright, Edwin

        1026

        1027

        Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Whitehead, Phillip

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        Wallace, George

        Whitlock, William

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Watkins, David

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Weitzman, David

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES

        Wellbeloved, James

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        Mr. William Hamling and

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        Mr. John Golding.

        Question put, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill:—

        Division No. 97.]

        AYES

        [1.57 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        James, David

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Drayson, G. B.

        Jessel, Toby

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Astor, John

        Dykes, Hugh

        Jopling, Michael

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Eden, Sir John

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Awdry, Daniel

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Kilfedder, James

        Balniel, Lord

        Emery, Peter

        Kimball, Marcus

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Eyre, Reginald

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Batsford, Brian

        Farr, John

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Fell, Anthony

        Kirk, Peter

        Bell, Ronald

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        Kitson, Timothy

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Fidler, Michael

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Benyon, W.

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        Knox, David

        Berry, Hn. Anthony

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Lambton, Antony

        Biffen, John

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Lane, David

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Foster, Sir John

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Blaker, Peter

        Fowler, Norman

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Fox, Marcus

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Body, Richard

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Boscawen Robert

        Fry, Peter

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        Longden, Gilbert

        Bowden, Andrew

        Gardner, Edward

        Loveridge, John

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Gibson-Watt, David

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Braine, Bernard

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        McArthur, Ian

        Bray, Ronald

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        McCrindle, R. A.

        McLaren, Martin

        Brewis, John

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Goodhart, Philip

        McMaster, Stanley

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Goodhew, Victor

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Gorst, John

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Gower, Raymond

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

        Bryan, Paul

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Maddan, Martin

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N & M)

        Gray, Hamish

        Madel, David

        Buck, Antony

        Green, Alan

        Magginnis, John E.

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Grieve, Percy

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Burden, F. A.

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Marten, Neil

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Grylls, Michael

        Mather, Carol

        Carlisle, Mark

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Maude, Angus

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Gurden, Harold

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Channon, Paul

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Mawby, Ray

        Chapman, Sydney

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Churchill, W. S.

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W.)

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Clegg, Walter

        Hastings, Stephen

        Moate, Roger

        Cockeram, Eric

        Havers, Michael

        Molyneaux, James

        Cooke, Robert

        Hawkins, Paul

        Money, Ernie

        Coombs, Derek

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Cooper, A. E.

        Hicks, Robert

        Monro, Hector

        Cordle, John

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Hiley, Joseph

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Cormack, Patrick

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Costain, A. P.

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Critchley, Julian

        Holland, Phillip

        Mudd, David

        Crouch, David

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Murton, Oscar

        Crowder, F. P.

        Hordern, Peter

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Curran, Charles

        Hornby, Richard

        Neave, Airey

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Normanton, Tom

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Nott, John

        Dean, Paul

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Onslow, Cranley

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Hunt, John

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Digby, Simon Wingfield

        Hutchinson, Michael Clark

        Osborn, John

        Dixon, Piers

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        The Committee divided: Ayes 298, Noes 254.

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Scott, Nicholas

        Trew, Peter

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Peel, John

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Percival, Ian

        Simeons, Charles

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Waddington, David

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Pounder, Rafton

        Soref, Harold

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Speed, Keith

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Spence, John

        Wall, Patrick

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Sproat, Iain

        Walters, Dennis

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Stainton, Keith

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Warren, Kenneth

        Raison, Timothy

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Stokes, John

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Redmond, Robert

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Sutcliffe, John

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Tapsell, Peter

        Wilkinson, John

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Tebbit, Norman

        Worsley, Marcus

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Temple, John M.

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Younger, Hn. George

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Rost, Peter

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Mr. Jasper More and

        Royle, Anthony

        Tilney, John

        Mr. Tim Fortescue.

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        NOES

        Albu, Austen

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

        Allen, Scholefield

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Hattersley, Roy

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Deakins, Eric

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Armstrong, Ernest

        de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Ashton, Joe

        Delargy, H. J.

        Hilton, W. S.

        Atkinson, Norman

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Horam, John

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Dempsey, James

        Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Barnes, Michael

        Doig, Peter

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Barnett, Joel

        Dormand, J. D.

        Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Beaney, Alan

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Bennett, James (Glasgow,Bridgeton)

        Driberg, Tom

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        Hunter, Adam

        Bishop, E. S.

        Dunn, James A.

        Janner, Greville

        Blenkinsop, Arthur

        Dunnett, Jack

        Jay, Rt. Hn, Douglas

        Boardman, H. (Leigh)

        Eadie, Alex

        Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,s.)

        Booth, Albert

        Edelman, Maurice

        Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

        Bradley, Tom

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        John, Brynmor

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

        Ellis, Tom

        Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        English, Michael

        Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

        Buchan, Norman

        Evans, Fred

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Fernyhough, E.

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        Jones,Rt.Hn.SirElwyn(W.Ham,S.)

        Campbell, I. (DunbartonShire, W.)

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Cant, R. B.

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Carmichael, Neil

        Foley, Maurine

        Kelley, Richard

        Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        Foot, Michael

        Kerr, Russell

        Kinnock, Neil

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Ford, Ben

        Lambie, David

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Forrester, John

        Lamond, James

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Latham, Arthur

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Freeson, Reginald

        Lewson, George

        Cohen, Stanley

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Coleman, Donald

        Garrett, W. E.

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Concannon, J. D.

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Leonard, Dick

        Conlan, Bernard

        Ginsburg, David

        Lestor, Miss John

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Cronin, John

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Lipton, Marcus

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Loughlin, Charles

        Dalyell, Tam

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        Darling, Rt. Hn. George

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Davidson, Arthur

        Hardy, Peter

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Harper, Joseph

        McBride, Neil

        1030

        1031

        McCartney, Hugh

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Spriggs, Leslie

        McElhone, Frank

        Paget, R. T.

        Stallard, A. W.

        McGuire, Michael

        Palmer, Arthur

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Mackie, John

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Strang, Gavin

        Maclennan, Robert

        Pendry, Tom

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Pentland, Norman

        Swain, Thomas

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Taverne, Dick

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Prescott, John

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        Mallalieu, J P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Marks, Kenneth

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Tinn, James

        Marquand, David

        Probert, Arthur

        Tomney, Frank

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Rankin, John

        Torney, Tom

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Urwin, T. W.

        Meacher, Michael

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Wainwright, Edwin

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Richard, Ivor

        Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

        Mendelson, John

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Mikardo, Ian

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Wallace, George

        Millar, Bruce

        Robertson, John (Paisley)

        Watkins, David

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Weitzman, David

        Molloy, William

        Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

        Wellbeloved, James

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Roper, John

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Rose, Paul B.

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Whitehead, Phillip

        Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Whitlock, William

        Moyle, Roland

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        Murray, Ronald King

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        Ogden, Eric

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Sillars, James

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        O'Malley, Brian

        Silverman, Julius

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Oram, Bert

        Skinner, Dennis

        Orbach, Maurice

        Small, William

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Orme, Stanley

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Mr. William Hamlin and

        Oswald, Thomas

        Spearing, Nigel

        Mr. John Golding.

        Clause 15, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

      Clause 16

        PRESSURE TO ANTICIPATE RESULT OF BALLOT
        Amendment made: No. 496 in page 13, line 20, leave out 'or section 14'.—[Mr. Dudley Smith.]
        Question put, That the Clause as amended, stand part of the Bill.
        The Committee proceeded to a Division—
        The Chairman: Lock the doors.
        Hon. Members: Order.
        The Chairman: Unlock the doors.
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): On a point of order, Sir Robert. I was coming out of the Lobby, and a substantial number, at least seven—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ten."]—hon. Members forced their way against the officials who are responsible for controlling the doors, thereby nullifying the Division. May I have your Ruling, Sir Robert—
        The Chairman (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): I take the hon. Gentleman's point. I shall call the Division again. There was a technical hitch at the Table here concerned with the clock.
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): Further to that point of order, Sir Robert. Surely, the whole purpose of the limitation of time in which hon. Members may vote will be defeated if we have the Division again. If hon. Members can force their way into the Division Lobby after the time when they are entitled to vote, it nullifies the whole purpose of the limitation of time.
        The Chairman: I have taken the hon. Gentleman's point. The fault lies here at the Table entirely.
        Mr. John Golding (Newcastle-under-Lyme): No; they were like a rabble.
        The Chairman: Insufficient time was given by the Table to allow hon Members to go into the Lobbies in the proper period laid down by Standing Orders. I apologise to the Committee for the mistake which was made here. It is quite natural, in the circumstances, that hon. Members were in a hurry to go into the Lobby, because, after all, they know very well by now how long they will be

        1033
        here tonight. I apologise to the Committee, and I shall now put the Question again.
        The Committee proceeded to a Division—
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): On a point of order, Sir Robert. I understood you to say that the Table had given insufficient time for the Division to be taken, and in consequence of the mistake at the Table the hon. Members who forced themselves into the Lobby were justified. Sir Robert, I am extremely sorry, but I challenge your statement because the normal time for a Division was given, and I think it essential that we be clear that, once a Division is called, there is a limited time for hon. Members to go into the Lobby; otherwise, the time limit can be eliminated.
        The Chairman: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman believes what he is saying to be right. In fact, it is not. There was a mistake made here. We did not set the clock in the right way to make sure there was enough time. It was a simple error at the Table. There was insufficient time given. I assure the hon. Gentleman that that was so. As Chairman, the only thing I could do was to call the Division again so that the mistake could be rectified. I feel sure that the Committee will wish to exonerate us at this late hour for the mistake which we made.
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): I am sorry, Sir Robert. Further to that point of order——
        The Chairman: Order. No. I must announce the Tellers again first.
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): No, it would be——

        Division No. 98.]

        AYES

        [2.16 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Benyon, W.

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Berry, Hn. Anthony

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Biffen, John

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Astor, John

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Blaker, Peter

        Bryan, Paul

        Awdry, Daniel

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Body, Richard

        Buck, Antony

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Boscawen, R. T.

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Balniel, Lord

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Burden, F. A.

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Bowden, Andrew

        Butter, Adam (Bosworth)

        Batsford, Brian

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Carlisle, Mark

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Braine, Bernard

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Bell, Ronald

        Bray, Ronald

        Channon, Paul

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Brewis, John

        Chapman, Sydney

        The Chairman: Order. The Question is, That Clause 16, as amended, stand part of the Bill——
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): Sir Robert, I must——
        The Chairman: Order. Tellers for the Ayes: Mr. Monro, Mr. Goodhew. Tellers for the Noes: Mr. Golding, Mr. Hamling.
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): With all due respect, Sir Robert, I request you to send for Mr. Speaker. This is a travesty of the rules of order of this House. I must ask you to send for Mr. Speaker so that he can give a Ruling.
        On my point order, it may be that the Table made a mistake, but hon. Members dashing down the Chamber to the Division Lobby did not know that there had been a mistake. It could only be a mistake in retrospect, and hon. Members on the Government side forcing themselves into the Division Lobby make a nonsense of our procedures. Hon. Members opposite actually physically assaulted an official of the House. I must ask you, with due deference, to send for Mr. Speaker.
        The Chairman: Order. I cannot accede to the hon. Gentleman's request. I consider that what I have done is my duty. It is not a practical proposition for an hon. Member to direct the Chair to send for Mr. Speaker. That is in the discretion of the Chair. I rule that there is no cause for me to send for Mr. Speaker. As far as I am concerned, that is the end of the matter.
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): As I see it, Sir Robert, a mistake was made, and I ask you to reconsider that point of view.
        The Committee having divided: Ayes 296, Noes 175.

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Hordern, Peter

        Peel, John

        Churchill, W. S.

        Hornby, Richard

        Percival, Ian

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Clegg, Walter

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Cockeram, Eric

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Pounder, Rafton

        Cooke, Robert

        Hunt, John

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Coombs, Derek

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Cooper, A. E.

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Cordle, John

        James, David

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Corfield, F. V.

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Cormack, Patrick

        Jessel, Toby

        Raison, Timothy

        Costain, A. P.

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Critchley, Julian

        Jopling, Michael

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Crouch, David

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Crowder, F. P.

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Curran, Charles

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Rees, Hn. Peter (Dover)

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Kilfedder, James

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        Kimball, Marcus

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Dean, Paul

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Dighy, Simon Wingfield

        Kirk, Peter

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Dixon, Piers

        Kitson, Timothy

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Knox, David

        Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

        Drayson, G. B.

        Lambton, Antony

        Rost, Peter

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Lane, David

        Royle, Anthony

        Dykes, Hugh

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Eden, Sir John

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Scott, Nicholas

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Scott-Hopkins, James

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Emery, Peter

        Longden, Gilbert

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Eyre, Reginald

        Loveridge, John

        Simeons, Charles

        Farr, John

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Fell, Anthony

        MacArthur, Ian

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Fidler, Michael

        McLaren, Martin

        Soref, Harold

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Speed, Keith

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        McMaster, Stanley

        Spence, John

        Fortescue, Tim

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Sproat, Iain

        Foster, Sir John

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Stainton, Keith

        Fowler, Norman

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Fox, Marcus

        Maddan, Martin

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        Madel, David

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Fry, Peter

        Maginnis, John E.

        Stokes, John

        Galbraith, Hn, T. G.

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Gardner, Edward

        Marton, Neil

        Sutcliffe, John

        Gibson-Watt, David

        Mather, Carol

        Tapsell, Peter

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        Maude, Angus

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Glyn, Dr, Alan

        Mawby, Ray

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Goodhart, Philip

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Gorst, John

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Tebbit, Norman

        Gower, Raymond

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Temple, John M.

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Gray, Hamish

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Green, Alan

        Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Grieve, Percy

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Moats, Roger

        Tilney, John

        Grylls, Michael

        Molyneaux, James

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Money, Ernle D.

        Trew, Peter

        Gurden, Harold

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        More, Jasper

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Waddington, David

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Mudd, David

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Murton, Oscar

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Wall, Patrick

        Hastings, Stephen

        Neave, Airey

        Walters, Dennis

        Havers, Michael

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Hawkins, Paul

        Normanton, Tom

        Warren, Kenneth

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Note, John

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Hicks, Robert

        Onslow, Cranley

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Hiley, Joseph

        Osborn, John

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Wilkinson, John

        Holland, Philip

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        1036

        1037

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Worsley, Marcus

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Mr. Hector Monro and

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Younger, Hn. George

        Mr. Victor Goodhew.

        NOES

        Albu, Austen

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Allen, Scholefield

        Driberg, Tom

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Dunn, James A.

        Kelley, Richard

        Ashton, Joe

        Dunnett, Jack

        Kerr, Russell

        Atkinson, Norman

        Eadie, Alex

        Kinnock, Neil

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Edelman, Maurice

        Lambie, David

        Barnes, Michael

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        Lamond, James

        Barnett, Joel

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        Lawson, George

        Beaney, Alan

        Ellis, Tom

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        English, Michael

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Evans, Fred

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Fernyhough, E.

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Bishop, E. S.

        Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

        Loughlin, Charles

        Blenkinsop, Arthur

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Boardman, H. (Leigh)

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        McCartney, Hugh

        Booth, Albert

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        McGuire, Michael

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Foley, Maurice

        Mackie, John

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Foot, Michael

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Bradley, Tom

        Ford, Ben

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

        Fornester, John

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Freeson, Reginald

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Buchan, Norman

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Meacher, Michael

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Garrett, W. E.

        Molloy, William

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

        Ginsburg, David

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Cant, R. B.

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Orme, Stanley

        Carmichael, Neil

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Oswald, Thomas

        Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccies)

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Pendry, Tom

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Cohen, Stanley

        Hardy, Peter

        Prescott, John

        Coleman, Donald

        Harper, Joseph

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Concannon, J. D.

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Conlan, Bernard

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Roper, John

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Rose, Paul B.

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Hilton, W. S.

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Cronin, John

        Horam, John

        Silverman, Julius

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Skinner, Dennis

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A, (Whitehaven)

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Spearing, Nigel

        Dalyell, Tam

        Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Darling, Rt. Hn. George

        Hughes, Dr. Mark (Durham)

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Davidson, Arthur

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Strang, Gavin

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Urwin, T. W.

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Hunter, Adam

        Varley, Eric G.

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Janner, Creville

        Weitzman, David

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Jay, Rt. Hn, Douglas

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Deakins, Eric

        Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

        Whitlock, William

        de Frietas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Delargy, H J.

        Jenkins. Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

        Dell, Rt. Hn, Edmund

        John, Brynmor

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Dempsey, James

        Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

        Mr. John Golding and

        Doig, Peter

        Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull,W.)

        Mr. William Hamling.

        Dormand, J. D.

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Clause 16, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): On a point of order, Sir Robert.
        The Chairman: Order. Will the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) please resume his seat and remained uncovered? The Division is over aid he should stand in the ordinary way, without a hat on. But I am afraid that
        1038
        I cannot take a point of order because I am expressly excluded from doing so. I cannot take a point of order; nor can I take a dilatory Motion.
        Mr. Loughlin: On a point of Order——
        The Chairman: Order. I must proceed. I cannot take a point of order. I am sorry—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman will please resume his seat. I will explain further to him.
        Mr. Loughlin: On a point of Order——
        The Chairman: Order. If the hon. Gentleman will resume his seat for a moment I will further explain to him [Interruption.] Order.
        Mr. Loughlin: On a point order——
        The Chairman: Order. There is no point of order. The hon. Gentleman is a very experienced——
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): On a point of order—
        The Chairman: Order. As long as the hon. Gentleman does not speak he can remain covered. He and I are both old Members of the House of Commons and we know that we have to observe the rules. He knows as well as I do that when the Chair gives a Ruling that Ruling must simply be obeyed. I know I am right. There cannot be a point of order during the transaction of the guillotine at all——
        Mr. Loughlin Mr. Loughlin rose——
        The Chairman: —except during a Division. On the other hand, neither can the Government, feeling that they have had enough and would like to retire to their beds, move a dilatory Motion. It cuts both ways. Everything is quite fair. There can be no other business but the transaction of the business we are engaged upon. Knowing the hon. Gentleman as I do and his sense of fair play —[Interruption.]—I am sure he will not wish to put the Chair in an impossible position. We must now proceed to the next business.
        Clause 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill

      Clause 18

        WRITTEN PARTICULARS OF TERMS OF EMPLOYMENT
        Amendments made: No. 476, in page 14, line 15, leave out from beginning to 'or' in line 17 and insert:
        (b) specifying a person to whom, in accordance with the procedure available to the employee where he has a grievance relating to his employment, the employee can apply for the purpose of invoking that procedure,
        1040
        and the manner in which any such aplication should be made, and
        (c) either explaining the subsequent steps in that procedure.
        No. 477, in page 14, line 19, leave out 'that procedure' and insert 'those steps'.—[The Solicitor-General.]
        Question put, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill:—
        The Committee proceeded to a Division—
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): On a point of order, Sir Robert. I am sorry to pursue this matter, and if I had wanted to be awkward I would have persisted in standing, and defying your Ruling. This is a reasonable point of order, and it is this.
        You will recall that I questioned the propriety of some hon. Members who assaulted a servant of the House. I came to the Table and took advice, and the advice was that I could not raise the matter tomorrow with Mr. Speaker. What I am now asking, Sir Robert, is whether you will, in your capacity in the Chair, tonight, institute an investigation into the assault on a servant of the House.
        The Chairman: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I must interrupt him for a moment. The Question is, That Clause 18, as amended, stand part of the Bill. Those in favour say "Aye": those against say "No". Tellers for the Ayes, Mr. Hawkins and Mr. Rossi: tellers for the Noes, Mr. Golding and Mr. Hamling.
        Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to answer his point of order now—I think that I am properly seized of it. There have been times in the past when servants of the House have been not actually injured, but hurt or maltreated by hon. Members pushing their way into the Lobbies. On every occasion, action has not been taken by the Chair unless the person concerned has complained to the Chair. The servants of the House are instructed that if there is anything of that nature to complain about it is their duty to complain. In this case, no complaint whatsoever has been made to me by the allegedly offended servant of the House. That being so, I think that the hon. Gentleman would wish to let the matter rest.
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): Further to that point of order. It is

        1041
        almost a cardinal principle that a servant of the House cannot complain against an hon. Member. I understand that there was not only an assault at that end of the Chamber but at the other end as well. If we are to rely on the servants of this House, who are employees of this House, making complaints against Members of this House it would be an intolerable situation. I am not asking you to condemn anyone, but to use your authority to investigate the incidents to which I have referred, in fairness to those who serve us so well.
        The Chairman: I do not think I can give the hon. Gentleman the satisfaction which he is seeking. The rules and the traditions of the House in these matters are very clear. Obviously the attendants of the House are immediately subject to the discipline of the Serjeant at Arms. If they have any cause for complaint they would naturally, as would anyone, complain to the person under whose command they are immediately disposed. None has done so, or if they have, the Serjeant has not brought the complaint to me and I am sure that he would have done if it had been made. The hon. Gentleman would be best advised, in the interests of the Committee, to let the matter rest.
        Mr. Molloy (seated and covered): Further to that point of order. May I ask you whether you will consider this point, namely,. that the attendants involved closed the doors at your instructions and they were determined to carry out your instructions but were being prevented from doing so. I do feel that to say that they have to complain personally

        Division No. 99.]

        AYES

        [2.31 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Body, Richard

        Chapman, Sydney

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Boscawen, Robert

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        Bowden, Andrew

        Churchill, W. S.

        Astor, John

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Brains, Bernard

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Awdry, Daniel

        Bray, Ronald

        Clegg, Walter

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Brewis, John

        Cockeram, Eric

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Cooke, Robert

        Balniel, Lord

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Coombs, Derek

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Cooper, A. E.

        Batsford, Brian

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Cordle, John

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Byran, Paul

        Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Bell, Ronald

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

        Cormack, Patrick

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Buck, Antony

        Contain, A. P.

        Benyon, W.

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Critchley, Julian

        Berry, Hn. Anthony

        Burden, F. A.

        Crouch, David

        Biffen, John

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Crowder, F. P.

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Carlisle, Mark

        Curran, Charles

        Blaker, Pater

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Channon, Paul

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        is placing an additional burden upon them——
        The Chairman: Lock the doors!
        Mr. Molloy (seated and covered): You have just demonstrated the validity of my argument. It was you, Mr. Chairman who shouted, "Lock the doors", and it was hon. Members opposite who would not let the servants of the House lock the doors. If this is not carried out there will be no proper Division. To say that they have to complain personally is an unfair burden. Despite the fact that they have not personally complained I think that you ought to consider investigating this matter.
        The Chairman: No, I do not think that I should change my Ruling. It was perfectly correct to do what I have done. If there had been any cause for complaint I am sure it would have been made. This is an incident which occurs from time to time. The procedure is always the same. If the complaint is made it is made to the Serjeant, and I have seen these complaints made in the past. Members have been admonished about it. In this case there had clearly been a mistake by the Table and it was quite natural that there would be something of an avalanche of people trying to get in because they thought they had made a mistake.
        The mistake was made here and I have, I hope, made a full apology to the Committee. I think we should leave the matter there. I trust in the good sense of the hon. Gentleman to do so.
        The Committee having divided: Ayes 300, Noes 189.

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Jopling, Michael

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Dean, Paul

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Raison, Timothy

        Digby, Simon Wingfield

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Dixon, Piers

        Kilfedder, James

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        Kimball, Marcus

        Redmond, Robert

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Drayson, G. B.

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Dykes, Hugh

        Kirk, Peter

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Eden, Sir John

        Kitson, Timothy

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Knox, David

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Lambton, Antony

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Emery, Peter

        Lane, David

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Eyre, Reginald

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Farr, John

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Rost, Peter

        Fell, Anthony

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Royle, Anthony

        Fidler, Michael

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

        Longden, Gilbert

        Scott, Nicholas

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Loveridge, John

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Fortescue, Tim

        MacArthur, Ian

        Simeons, Charles

        Foster, Sir John

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Fowler, Norman

        McLaren, Martin

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Fox, Marcus

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Soref, Harold

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        McMaster, Stanley

        Speed, Keith

        Fry, Peter

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Spence, John

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Sproat, Iain

        Gardner, Edward

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

        Stainton, Keith

        Gibson-Watt, David

        Maddan, Martin

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        Madel, David

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Maginnis, John E.

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Stokes, John

        Goodhart, Philip

        Marten, Neil

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Goodnew, Victor

        Mather, Carol

        Sutcliffe, John

        Gorst, John

        Maude, Angus

        Tapsell, Peter

        Gower, Raymond

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Mawby, Ray

        Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Gray, Hamish

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Green, Alan

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Grieve, Percy

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Tebbit, Norman

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Temple, John M.

        Grylls, Michael

        Mitchell, Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W.)

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Gurden, Harold

        Moate, Roger

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Molyneaux, James

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Money, Ernle

        Tilney, John

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Monro, Hector

        Trew, Peter

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        More, Jasper

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Hastings, Stephen

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Waddington, David

        Havers, Michael

        Mudd, David

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Murton, Oscar

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Heseltine, Michael

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Hicks, Robert

        Neave, Airey

        Wall, Patrick

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Walters, Dennis

        Hiley, Joseph

        Normanton, Tom

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Nott, John

        Warren, Kenneth

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Onslow, Cranley

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Holland, Philip

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Osborn, John

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Hordern, Peter

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Hornby, Richard

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Wilkinson, John

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Peel, John

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Percival, Ian

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Hunt, John

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Worsley, Marcus

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        James, David

        Pounder, Rafton

        Younger, Hn. George

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Jessel, Toby

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Mr. Paul Hawkins and

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Mr. Hugh Rossi.

        1044

        1045

        NOES

        Albu, Austen

        Dunn, James A.

        Lawson, George

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Dunnett, Jack

        Leonard, Dick

        Allen, Scholefield

        Eadie, Alex

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Edeiman, Maurice

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Ashton, Joe

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Atkinson, Norman

        Ellis, Tom

        Loughlin, Charles

        Begier, Gordon A. T.

        English, Michael

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Byrnes, Michael

        Evans, Fred

        McCartney, Hugh

        Barnett, Joel

        Fernyhough, E.

        McGuire, Michael

        Beaney, Alan

        Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        Mackie, John

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        Maclennan, Robert

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Bishop, E. S.

        Foley, Maurice

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Blenkinsop, Arthur

        Foot, Michael

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Boardman, H. (Leigh)

        Ford, Ben

        Marquand, David

        Booth, Albert

        Forrester, John

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Freeson, Reginald

        Meacher, Michael

        Bradley, Tom

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

        Garrett, W. E.

        Millan, Bruce

        Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Morgan, Elysian (Cardiganshire)

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Ginsburg, David

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Buchan, Norman

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Grant, George (Merpeth)

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Orme, Stanley

        Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Oswald, Thomas

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Paget, R. T.

        Cant, R. B.

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Carmichael, Neil

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Hardy, Peter

        Pendry, Tom

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Harper, Joseph

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Clark, David (Calne Valley)

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Prescott, John

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Cohen, Stanley

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Coleman, Donald

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Concannon, J. D.

        Hilton, W. S.

        Robertson, John (Paisley)

        Conlan, Bernard

        Horam, John

        Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Roper, John

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Rose, Paul B.

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Hughes, Rt. Hn, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Cronin, John

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        Sillars, James

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Skinner, Dennis

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

        Hunter, Adam

        Small, William

        Dalyell, Tam

        Janner, Greville

        Spearing, Nigel

        Darling, Rt. Hn. George

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Stallard, A. W.

        Davidson, Arthur

        Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'B'n&St.P'Cras,S.)

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

        Swain, Thomas

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        John, Brynmor

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

        Tomney, Frank

        Deakins, Eric

        Johnson James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

        Urwin, T. W.

        de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Varley, Eric G.

        Delargy, H. J.

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Weitzman, David

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Dempsey, James

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Whitlock, William

        Doig, Peter

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Dormand, J. D.

        Kelley, Richard

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Kerr, Russell

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Kinnock, Neil

        Mr. John Golding and

        Driberg, Tom

        Lambie, David

        Mr. William Hamling.

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        Lamond, James

        Clause 18, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
        Clause 19 to 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

      Clause 22

        FAIR AND UNFAIR DISMISSAL
        Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
        The Commitee divided: Ayes 298, Noes 252.

        Division No. 100.]

        AYES

        [243 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Drayson, G. B.

        James, David

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Dykes, Hugh

        Jessel, Toby

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        Eden, Sir John

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Astor, John

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Jopling, Michael

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Elliot, Capt Walter (Carshalton)

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Awdry, Daniel

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'le-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Emery, Peter

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Eyre, Reginald

        Kilfedder, James

        Balniel, Lord

        Farr, John

        Kimball, Marcus

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Fell, Anthony

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Botsford, Brian

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Fidler, Michael

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Bell, Ronald

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        Kirk, Peter

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Kitson, Timothy

        Benyon, W.

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Berry, Hn. Anthony

        Fortescue, Tim

        Knox, David

        Bitten, John

        Foster, Sir John

        Lambton, Antony

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Fowler, Norman

        Lane, David

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Fox, Marcus

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Body, Richard

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Boscawen, Robert

        Fry, Peter

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Bowden, Andrew

        Gardner, Edward

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Gibson-Watt, David

        Longden, Gilbert

        Braine, Bernard

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        Loveridge, John

        Bray, Ronald

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Brewis, John

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        MacArthur, Ian

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Goodhart, Philip

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Good hew, Victor

        McLaren, Martin

        Gorst, John

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Gower, Raymond

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        McMaster, Stanley

        Bryan, Paul

        Gray, Hamish

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

        Green, Alan

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Buck, Antony

        Grieve, Percy

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Maddan, Martin

        Burden, F. A.

        Grylls, Michael

        Madel, David

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Maginnis, John E.

        Carlisle, Mark

        Gurden, Harold

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Marten, Neil

        Channon, Paul

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Mather, Carol

        Chapman, Sydney

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Maude, Angus

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Mawby, Ray

        Churchill, W. S.

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Clarke, Kenneth (Bushcliffe)

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Clegg, Walter

        Hastings, Stephen

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Cockeram, Eric

        Havers, Michael

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Cooke, Robert

        Hawkins, Paul

        Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

        Coombs, Derek

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Cooper, A. E.

        Heseltine, Michael

        Moate, Roger

        Cordle, John

        Hicks, Robert

        Molyneaux, James

        Cormack, Patrick

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Money, Ernle

        Costain, A. P.

        Hiley, Joseph

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Critchley, Julian

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Monro, Hector

        Crouch, David

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Crowder, F. P.

        Holland, Philip

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Curran, Charles

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Hordern, Peter

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        d'Avigdor-Galdsmid, Sir Henry

        Hornhy, Richard

        Mudd, David

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Murton, Oscar

        Dean, Paul

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Neave, Airey

        Digby, Simon Wingfield

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Dixon, Piers

        Hunt, John

        Normanton, Tom

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Nott, John

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Onslow, Cranley

        1048

        1049

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Royle, Anthony

        Tilney John

        Osborn, John

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Trew, Peter

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Scott, Nicholas

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Peel, John

        Simeons, Charles

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Percival, Ian

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Waddington, David

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick&L'mington)

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Soref, Harold

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Pounder, Rafton

        Speed, Keith

        Wall, Patrick

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Spence, John

        Walters, Dennis

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Sproat, Iain

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Stainton, Keith

        Warren, Kenneth

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Stewart-Smith, D. C. (Belper)

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Raison, Timothy

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Stokes, John

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Redmond, Robert

        Sutcliffe, John

        Wilkinson, John

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Tapsell, Peter

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Taylor, Robert, (Croydon, N.W.)

        Worsley, Marcus

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Tebbit, Norman

        Wylie, Rt. Hn, N. R.

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Temple, John M.

        Younger, Hn. George

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Thatcher Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Mr. Jasper More and

        Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Mr. Walter Clegg.

        Rost, Peter

        NOES

        Albu, Austen

        Darling, Rt. Hn. George

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Davidson, Arthur

        Hardy, Peter

        Allen, Scholefield

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Harper, Joseph

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

        Ashton, Joe

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Hattersley, Roy

        Atkinson, Norman

        Deakins, Eric

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Bagier, Gordon A. T

        de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Barnes, Michael

        Delargy, H. J.

        Hilton, W. S.

        Barnett, Joel

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Horam, John

        Beaney, Alan

        Dempsey, James

        Houghton, Rt. Hn, Douglas

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Doig, Peter

        Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Dormand, J. D.

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Bishop, E. S.

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        Blenkinsop, Arthur

        Driberg, Tom

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Boardman, H. (Leigh)

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Booth, Albert

        Dunn, James A.

        Hunter, Adam

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Dunnett, Jack

        Janner, Greville

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Eadie, Alex

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Bradley, Tom

        Edwards, Maurice

        Jeger, Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&st.P'cras,S.)

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,w.)

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

        Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Proven)

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Ellis, Tom

        John, Brynmor

        Buchan, Norman

        English, Michael

        Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, s.)

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Evans, Fred

        Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        Fernyhough, E.

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

        Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Campbell, I (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Cant, R. B.

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Carmichael, Neil

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        Foley, Maurice

        Kelley, Richard

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Ford, Ben

        Kinnock, Neil

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Forrester, John

        Lambie, David

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Lamond, James

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Freeson, Reginald

        Latham, Arthur

        Cohen, Stanley

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Lawson, George

        Coleman, Donald

        Garrett, W. E.

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Concannon, J. D.

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Conlan, Bernard

        Ginsburg, David

        Leonard, Dick

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Lestor, Miss Joan

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

        Cronin, John

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Lipton, Marcus

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Dalyell, Tam

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Loughlin, Charles

        1050

        1051

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        O'Malley, Brian

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Oram, Bert

        Spearing, Nigel

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Orbach, Maurice

        Spriggs, Leslie

        McBride, Neil

        Orme, Stanley

        Stallard, A. W.

        McCartney, Hugh

        Oswald, Thomas

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        McElhone, Frank

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        McGuire, Michael

        Paget, R. T.

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Palmer, Arthur

        Strang, Gavin

        Mackie, John

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Swain, Thomas

        Maclennan, Robert

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Taverne, Dick

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Pendry, Tom

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Pentland, Norman

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Tinn, James

        Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

        Tomney, Frank

        Marks, Kenneth

        Prescott, John

        Torney, Tom

        Marquand, David

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Urwin, T. W.

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Varley, Eric G.

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Probert, Arthur

        Wainwright, Edwin

        Meacher, Michael

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Wallace, George

        Mendelson, John

        Richard, Ivor

        Watkins, David

        Mikardo, Ian

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Weitzman, David

        Millan, Bruce

        Roberts, Rt. Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Wellbeloved, James

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Molloy, William

        Roper, John

        Whitlock, William

        Morgan, Elvstan (Cardiganshire)

        Rose, Paul B.

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        Moyle, Roland

        Short, Rt. Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Murray, Ronald King

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Ogden, Eric

        Sillars, James

        Mr. John Golding and

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Skinner, Dennis

        Mr. William Hamling.

        Clause 22 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

      Clause 23

        DISMISSAL IN CONNECTION WITH A LOCK-OUT
        Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
        The Committee proceeded to a Division—
        Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): On a point of order. You will recall, Sir Robert, that I said that I would pursue on a point of order the matter which I raised with you earlier in connection with the manhandling of a servant of the House. It was necessary for me to leave it until now, because the servant of the House immediately after the incident went to a rest room and had a cup of tea.
        I have taken the opportunity of talking to the servant of the House concerned.
        Like most servants of the House, he is reluctant to complain about the conduct of hon. Members, but it was clear to me from his answers to questions which I put that he was conscious of not being
        1052
        treated with the kind of courtesy with which he should have been treated. I am satisfied that there is just cause for, and I am asking you to institute, an investigation into the incident to safeguard servants of the House from the thuggery to which, apparently, they are to be subjected in future. On this point of order I am simply asking you in your capacity as the Chairman of Ways and Means to institute an investigation into the incident.
        Mr. Maurice Edelman(seated and covered): Further to that point of order. This is by no means a frivolous matter. Indeed, it is a very grave matter affecting every hon. Member. The House has traditionally taken very grave notice of any physical altercation involving an hon. Member, and so it has been throughout the history of the Commons.
        It will be within your recollection, Sir Robert, that some years ago a Member of the House was involved in a physical clash with a journalist at one of the bars of the House, and the matter was treated as one of grave consequence and it was reported to a Committee of Privileges. At that time, Mr. Winston Churchill, as he was then, referred to the great

        1053
        significance of any hon. Member being involved in a physical altercation of that kind. The matter was taken extremely seriously.
        As this seems to be a matter involving the privileges of the House and as it might involve a grave contempt of the House of Commons, I ask you in furtherance of what my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr.

        Division No. 101.]

        AYES

        [2.56 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Digby, Simon Wingfield

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Dixon, Piers

        Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        Hunt, John

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Astor, John

        Drayson, G. B.

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Atkins, Humphrey

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        James, David

        Awdry, Daniel

        Eden, Sir John

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Jessel, Toby

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Balniel, Lord

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Jopling, Michael

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Emery, Peter

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Batsford, Brian

        Eyre, Reginald

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Farr, John

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Bell, Ronald

        Fell, Anthony

        Kilfedder, James

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        Kimball, Marcus

        Benyon, W.

        Fidler, Michael

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Berry, Hn. Anthony

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Biffen, John

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Kirk, Peter

        Blaker, Peter

        Fortescue, Tim

        Kitson, Timothy

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Foster, Sir John

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Body, Richard

        Fowler, Norman

        Knox, David

        Boscawen, Robert

        Fox, Marcus

        Lambton, Antony

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        Lane, David

        Bowden, Andrew

        Fry, Peter

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Braine, Bernard

        Gardner, Edward

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Bray, Ronald

        Gibson-Watt, David

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Brewis, John

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Longden, Gilbert

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        Loveridge, John

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Goodhart, Philip

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Bruce-Cardyne, J.

        Goodhew, Victor

        MacArthur, Ian

        Bryan, Paul

        Gorst, John

        McCrindle, R. A.

        Bachanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

        Gower, Raymond

        McLaren, Martin

        Buck, Antony

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Gray, Hamish

        McMaster, Stanley

        Burden, F. A.

        Green, Alan

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Grieve, Percy

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Carlisle, Mark

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Grylls, Michael

        Maddan, Martin

        Channon, Paul

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Madel, David

        Chapman, Sydney

        Gurden, Harold

        Maginnis, John E.

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Marten, Neil

        Churchill, W. S.

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Mather, Carol

        Clark, William (Surrey E.)

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Maude, Angus

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Clegg, Walter

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Mawby, Ray

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Cockeram, Eric

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Cooke, Robert

        Havers, Michael

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Coombs, Derek

        Hawkins, Paul

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Cooper, A. E

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Cordle, John

        Heseltine, Michael

        Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

        Cormack, Patrick

        Hicks, Robert

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Costain, A. P.

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Moate, Roger

        Critchley, Julian

        Hiley, Joseph

        Molyneaux, James

        Crouch, David

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Money, Ernle

        Crowder, F. P.

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Curran, Charles

        Holland, Philip

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Holt, Miss Mary

        More, Jasper

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

        Hordern, Peter

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Hornby, Richard

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Dean, Paul

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Mudd, David

        Loughlin) has said to report the matter to Mr. Speaker with a view to its being raised with the Committee of Privileges.
        The Chairman: I will ask for a report from the Serjeant at Arms and consider the matter when I have it.
        The Committee having divided: Ayes 297, Noes 251.

        Murton, Oscar

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

        Heave, Airey

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Tilney, John

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Rodgers, Sr John (Sevenoaks)

        Trafford, Dr Anthony

        Normanton, Tom

        Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

        Trew, Peter

        Nott, John

        Rost, Peter

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Onslow, Cranley

        Royle, Anthony

        Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Osborn, John

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        Scott, Nicholas

        Waddington, David

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Walder, David (Clitheroe)

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Simeons, Charles

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Peel, John

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Walt, Patrick

        Percival, Ian

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Walters, Dennis

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Soref, Harold

        Warren, Kenneth

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Spence, John

        Weatherill, Bernard

        Pounder, Rafton

        Sproat, Iain

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

        Stainton, Keith

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Wilkinson, John

        Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

        Stokes, John

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Raison, Timothy

        Sutcliffe, John

        Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Tapsell, Peter

        Woodnutt, Mark

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Worsley, Marcus

        Redmond, Robert

        Taylor,Eelward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Younger, Hn. George

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Reyes-Davies, W. R.

        Tebbit, Norman

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Temple, John M.

        Mr. Hector Monro and

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Mr. Keith Speed.

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        NOES

        Albu, Austen

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Dalyell, Tam

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Allen, Scholefield

        Darling, Rt. Hn. George

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Davidson, Arthur

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Ashton, Joe

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Atkinson, Norman

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Hardy, Peter

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Harper, Joseph

        Barnes, Michael

        Deakins, Eric

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        Barnett, Joel

        de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

        Beaney, Alan

        Delargy, H. J.

        Hattersley, Roy

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Dempsey, James

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Doig, Peter

        Hilton, W. S.

        Bishop, E. S.

        Dormand, J. D.

        Horam, John

        Blenkinsop, Arthur

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Boardman, H. (Leigh)

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Hewell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Booth, Albert

        Driberg, Tom

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Dunn, James A.

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        Bradley, Tom

        Dunnett, Jack

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

        Eadie, Alex

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

        Edelman, Maurice

        Hunter, Adam

        Janner, Greville

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Buchan, Norman

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Ellis, Tom

        Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        English, Michael

        Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

        Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

        Evans, Fred

        John, Brynmor

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Fernyhough, E.

        Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

        Cant, R. B.

        Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

        Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

        Carmichael, Neil

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

        Foley, Maurice

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        Foot, Michael

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        Ford, Ben

        Kelley, Richard

        Cohen, Stanley

        Forrester, John

        Kerr, Russell

        Coleman, Donald

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Kinnock, Neil

        Concannon, J. D.

        Freeson, Reginald

        Lambie, David

        Conlan, Bernard

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Lamond, James

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Garrett, W. E.

        Latham, Arthur

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Lawson, George

        Crawshaw, Richard

        Ginsburg, David

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Cronin, John

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Leonard, Dick

        1056

        1057

        Lestor, Miss Joan

        Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Sillars, James

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Murray, Ronald King

        Skinner, Dennis

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

        Ogden, Eric

        Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Spearing, Nigel

        Lipton, Marcus

        O'Malley, Brian

        Spriggs, Leslie

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Oram, Bert

        Stallard, A. W.

        Loughlin, Charles

        Orbach, Maurice

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        Orme, Stanley

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Oswald, Thomas

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Strang, Gavin

        McBride, Neil

        Paget, R. T.

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        McCartney, Hugh

        Palmer, Arthur

        Swain, Thomas

        McElhone, Frank

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Taverns, Dick

        McGuire, Michael

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Thomas,Rt.Hn,Gearge (Cardiff,W.)

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        Mackie, John

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Pendry, Tom

        Tinn, James

        Maclennan, Robert

        Pentland, Norman

        Tomney, Frank

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Torney, Tom

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

        Urwin, T, W.

        Varley, Eric G.

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Prescott, John

        Wainwright, Edwin

        Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E).

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Marks, Kenneth

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Wallace, George

        Marquand, David

        Probert, Arthur

        Watkins, David

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Weitzman, David

        Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Wellbeloved, James

        Meacher, Michael

        Richard, Ivor

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Mendelson, John

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Whitlock, William

        Mikardo, Ian

        Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Millan, Bruce

        Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Roper, John

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Rose, Paul B.

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        Molloy, William

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        Mr. William Handing and

        Moyle, Roland

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        Mr. John Golding.

        Clause 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

      Clause 24

        DISMISSAL IN CONNECTION WITH A STRIKE OR OTHER INDUSTRIAL ACTION
        Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
        The Committee divided: Ayes 297, Noes 251.

        Division No. 102.]

        AYES

        [3.10 a.m.

        Adley, Robert

        Boscawen, Robert

        Chichester-Clark, R.

        Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

        Bossom, Sir Clive

        Churchill, W. S.

        Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

        Bowden, Andrew

        Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

        Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

        Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

        Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

        Astor, John

        Braine, Bernard

        Clegg, Walter

        Atkins, Humphrey

        Bray, Ronald

        Cockeram, Eric

        Awdry, Daniel

        Brewis, John

        Cooke, Robert

        Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

        Brinton, Sir Tatton

        Coombs, Derek

        Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

        Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

        Cooper, A. E.

        Balniel, Lord

        Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

        Cordle, John

        Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

        Bruce-Gardyne, J.

        Cormack, Patrick

        Batsford, Brian

        Bryan, Paul

        Costain, A. P.

        Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

        Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

        Critchley, Julian

        Bell, Ronald

        Buck, Antony

        Crouch, David

        Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

        Bullus, Sir Eric

        Crowder, F. P.

        Benyon, W.

        Burden, F. A.

        Curran, Charles

        Berry, Hon. Anthony

        Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

        Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

        Biffen, John

        Carlisle, Mark

        d'Avigdor-Coldsmid, Sir Henry

        Biggs-Davison, John

        Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

        d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

        Blaker, Peter

        Chanson, Paul

        Dean, Paul

        Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

        Chapman, Sydney

        Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

        Body, Richard

        Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

        Digby, Simon Wingfield

        1058

        1059

        Dixon, Piers

        Kilfedder, James

        Raison, Timothy

        Dodds-Parker, Douglas

        Kimball, Marcus

        Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

        Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

        King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

        Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

        Drayson, G. B.

        King, Tom (Bridgwater)

        Redmond, Robert

        du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

        Kinsey, J. R.

        Reed, Laurance (Bolton)

        Eden, Sir John

        Kirk, Peter

        Rees, Peter (Dover)

        Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

        Kitson, Timothy

        Rees-Davies, W. R.

        Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

        Knight, Mrs. Jill

        Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

        Elliott, R. W. (N'c'le-upon-Tyne,N.)

        Knox, David

        Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

        Emery, Peter

        Lambton, Antony

        Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

        Eyre, Reginald

        Lane, David

        Ridsdale, Julian

        Farr, John

        Langford-Holt, Sir John

        Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

        Fell, Anthony

        Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

        Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

        Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

        Le Marchant, Spencer

        Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

        Fidler, Michael

        Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

        Rost, Peter

        Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

        Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

        Royle, Anthony

        Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

        Longden, Gilbert

        Russell, Sir Ronald

        Fookes, Miss Janet

        Loveridge, John

        St. John-Stevas, Norman

        Fortescue, Tim

        McAdden, Sir Stephen

        Scott, Nicholas

        Foster, Sir John

        MacArthur, Ian

        Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

        Fowler, Norman

        McGrindle, R. A.

        Shelton, William (Clapham)

        Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

        McLaren, Martin

        Simeons, Charles

        Fry, Peter

        Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

        Sinclair, Sir George

        Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

        McMaster, Stanley

        Skeet, T. H. H.

        Gardner, Edward

        Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

        Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

        Gipson-Watt, David

        McNair-Wilson, Michael

        Soref, Harold

        Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

        McNair-Wilson, Patrick(New Forest)

        Speed, Keith

        Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

        Maddan, Martin

        Spence, John

        Glyn, Dr. Alan

        Madel, David

        Sproat, Iain

        Goodhart, Philip

        Maginnis, John E.

        Stainton, Keith

        Goodhew, Victor

        Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

        Stanbrook, Ivor

        Gorse, John

        Marten, Neil

        Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

        Gower, Raymond

        Mather, Carol

        Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

        Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

        Maude, Angus

        Stokes, John

        Gray, Hamish

        Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

        Stuttafard, Dr. Tom

        Green, Alan

        Mawby, Ray

        Sutcliffe, John

        Grieve, Percy

        Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

        Tapsell, Peter

        Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

        Meyer, Sir Anthony

        Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

        Grylls, Michael

        Mills, Peter (Torrington)

        Taylor, Edward.(G'gow,Cathcart)

        Gummer, Selwyn

        Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

        Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

        Gurden, Harold

        Miscampbell, Norman

        Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

        Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

        Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

        Tebbit, Norman

        Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

        Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

        Temple, John M.

        Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

        Moate, Roger

        Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

        Hannam, John (Exeter)

        Molyneaux, James

        Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

        Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

        Money, Ernle

        Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

        Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

        Monks, Mrs. Connie

        Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon,S.)

        Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

        Monro, Hector

        Tilney, John

        Haselhurst, Alan

        Montgomery, Fergus

        Trafford, Dr. Anthony

        Hastings, Stephen

        More, Jasper

        Trew, Peter

        Havers, Michael

        Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

        Tugendhat, Christopher

        Hawkins, Paul

        Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

        Turton, Rt. Hn, R. H.

        Hayhoe, Barney

        Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

        Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

        Heseltine, Michael

        Mudd, David

        Vickers, Dame Joan

        Hicks, Robert

        Murton, Oscar

        Waddington, David

        Higgins, Terence L.

        Nabarro, Sir Gerald

        Waller, David (Clitheroe)

        Hiley, Joseph

        Neave, Airey

        Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

        Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

        Nicholls, Sir Harmar

        Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

        Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

        Normanton, Tom

        Wall, Patrick

        Holland, Philip

        Nott, John

        Waiters, Dennis

        Holt, Miss Mary

        Onslow, Cranley

        Ward, Dame Irene

        Hordern Peter

        Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

        Warren, Kenneth

        Hornby, Richard

        Osborn, John

        Wells, John (Maidstone)

        Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

        Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

        White, Roger (Gravesend)

        Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

        Page, Graham (Crosby)

        Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

        Howell, David (Guildford)

        Page, John (Harrow, W.)

        Wiggin, Jerry

        Howell, Ralph (Norfok, N.)

        Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

        Wilkinson, John

        Hunt, John

        Peel, John

        Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

        Hutchison, Michael Clark

        Percival, Ian

        Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Iremonger, T. L.

        Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

        Woodnutt, Mark

        James, David

        Pike, Miss Mervyn

        Worsley, Marcus

        Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

        Pink, R. Bonner

        Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

        Jessel, Toby

        Pounder, Rafton

        Younger, Hn. George

        Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

        Powell, Rt. Hn, J. Enoch

        Jopling, Michael

        Price, David (Eastleigh)

        TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

        Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

        Proudfoot, Wilfred

        Mr. Bernard Weatherill and

        Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

        Pym, Rt. an. Francis

        Mr. Hugh Rossi.

        Kershaw, Anthony

        Quennell, Miss J. M.

        NOES

        Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

        Armstrong, Ernest

        Bagier, Gordon A. T.

        Allen, Scholefield

        Ashton, Joe

        Barnes, Michael

        Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

        Atkinson, Norman

        Barnett, Joel

        1060

        1061

        Beaney, Alan

        Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

        Murray, Ronald King

        Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

        Hardy, Peter

        Ogden, Eric

        Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

        Harper, Joseph

        O'Halloran, Michael

        Bidwell, Sydney

        Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

        O'Malley, Brian

        Bishop, E. S.

        Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

        Oram, Bert

        Blenkinsop, Arthur

        Hattersley, Roy

        Orbach, Maurice

        Booth, Albert

        Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

        Orme, Stanley

        Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

        Heffer, Eric S.

        Oswald, Thomas

        Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

        Hilton, W. S.

        Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

        Bradley, Tom

        Horam, John

        Paget, R. T.

        Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

        Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Palmer, Arthur

        Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

        Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

        Parker, John (Dagenham)

        Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

        Huckfield, Leslie

        Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

        Buchan, Norman

        Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

        Pavitt, Laurie

        Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

        Hughes, Mark (Durham)

        Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

        Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

        Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

        Pendry, Tom

        Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

        Hughes, Roy (Newport)

        Pentland, Norman

        Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

        Hunter, Adam

        Perry, Ernest G.

        Cant, R. B.

        Janner, Greville

        Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

        Carmichael, Neil

        Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

        Prescott, John

        Carter, Ray(Birmingh'm, Northfield)

        Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

        Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

        Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

        Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

        Price, William (Rugby)

        Clark, David (Colne Valley)

        Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

        Probert, Arthur

        Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

        John, Brynmor

        Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

        Cohen, Stanley

        Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

        Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

        Coleman, Donald

        Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

        Richard, Ivor

        Concannon, J. D.

        Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

        Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

        Conlan, Bernard

        Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

        Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

        Corbet, Mrs. Freda

        Jones, Dan (Burnley)

        Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

        Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

        Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

        Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

        Crawshaw, Richar

        Kaufman, Gerald

        Roper, John

        Cronin, John

        Kelley, Richard

        Rose, Paul B.

        Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

        Kerr, Russell

        Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

        Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

        Kinnock, Neil

        Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

        Dalyell, Tam

        Lambie, David

        Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

        Darling, Rt. Hn. George

        Lamond, James

        Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

        Davidson, Arthur

        Latham, Arthur

        Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

        Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

        Lawson, George

        Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

        Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

        Leadbitter, Ted

        Sillars, James

        Davies, Ifor (Gower)

        Lee, Fit. Hn. Frederick

        Silverman, Julius

        Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

        Leonard, Dick

        Skinner, Dennis

        Deakins, Eric

        Lestor, Miss Joan

        Small, William

        de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

        Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

        Smith, John Lanarkshire, N.)

        Delargy, H. J.

        Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

        Spearing, Nigel

        Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

        Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

        Spriggs, Leslie

        Dempsey, James

        Lipton, Marcus

        Stallard, A. W.

        Doig, Peter

        Lomas, Kenneth

        Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

        Dormand, J. D.

        Loughlin, Charles

        Stoddart, David (Swindon)

        Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

        Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

        Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

        Douglas-Mann, Bruce

        Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

        Strang, Gavin

        Driberg, Tom

        Mabon, Dr. J. Diekson

        Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

        Duffy, A. E. P.

        McBride, Neil

        Swain, Thomas

        Dunn, James A.

        McCartney, Hugh

        Taverne, Dick

        Dunnett, Jack

        McElhone, Frank

        Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

        Eadie, Alex

        McGuire, Michael

        Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

        Edelman, Maurice

        Mackenzie, Gregor

        Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

        Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

        Mackie, John

        Tinn, James

        Edwards, William (Merioneth)

        Mackintosh, John P.

        Tomney, Frank

        Ellis, Tom

        Maclennan, Robert

        Torney, Tom

        English, Michael

        McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, S.)

        Urwin, T. W.

        Evans, Fred

        McNamara, J. Kevin

        Varley, Eric G.

        Fernyhough, E.

        MacPherson, Malcolm

        Wainwright, Edwin

        Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham,Ladywood)

        Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

        Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

        Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

        Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

        Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

        Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

        Marks, Kenneth

        Wallace, George

        Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

        Marquand, David

        Watkins, David

        Foley, Maurice

        Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

        Weitzman, David

        Foot, Michael

        Mason, Rt. Hn, Roy

        Wellbeloved, James

        Forrester, John

        Meacher, Michael

        Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

        Fraser, John (Norwood)

        Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

        White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

        Freeson, Reginald

        Mendelson, John

        Whitehead, Phillip

        Galpern, Sir Myer

        Mikardo, Ian

        Whitlock, William

        Garrett, W. E.

        Millan, Bruce

        Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Gilbert, Dr. John

        Miller, Dr. M. S.

        Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

        Ginsburg, David

        Milne, Edward (Blyth)

        Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

        Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

        Molloy, William

        Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

        Grant, George (Morpeth)

        Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

        Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

        Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

        Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

        Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

        Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

        Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

        Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

        Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

        TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

        Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

        Moyle, Roland

        Mr. William Hamling and

        Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

        Mulliey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

        Mr. John Golding.

        Clause 24 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

        Clause 25

          UNFAIRLY INDUCING DISMISSAL
          Amendment proposed: No. 478, in Clause 25, page 19, line 1, leave out from 'for' to end of line 3 and insert:

          Division No. 103.]

          AYES

          [3.22 a.m.

          Adley, Robert

          du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

          Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

          Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

          Eden, Sir John

          Kershaw, Anthony

          Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

          Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

          Kilfedder, James

          Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

          Elliot, Capt Walter (Carshalton)

          Kimball, Marcus

          Astor, John

          Elilott, R. W. (N'c'le-upon-Tyne,N.)

          King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

          Atkins, Humphrey

          Emery, Peter

          King, Tom (Bridgwater)

          Awdry, Daniel

          Eyre, Reginald

          Kinsey, J. R.

          Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

          Farr, John

          Kirk, Peter

          Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

          Fell, Anthony

          Kitson, Timothy

          Balniel, Lord

          Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

          Knight, Mrs. Jill

          Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

          Fidler, Michael

          Knox, David

          Batsford, Brian

          Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

          Lambton, Antony

          Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

          Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

          Lane, David

          Bell, Ronald

          Fookes, Miss Janet

          Langford-Holt, Sir John

          Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

          Foster, Sir John

          Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

          Benyon, W.

          Fowler, Norman

          Le Marchant, Spencer

          Berry, Hn. Anthony

          Fox, Marcus

          Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

          Biffen, John

          Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

          Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

          Biggs-Davisan, John

          Fry, Peter

          Longden, Gilbert

          Blaker, Peter

          Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

          Loveridge, John

          Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

          Gardner, Edward

          McAdden, Sir Stephen

          Body, Richard

          Gibson-Watt, David

          MacArthur, Ian

          Boscawen Robert

          Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

          McCrindle, R. A.

          Bossom, Sir Clive

          Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

          McLaren, Martin

          Bowden, Andrew

          Glyn, Dr. Alan

          Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

          Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

          Goodhart, Philip

          McMaster, Stanley

          Braine, Bernard

          Goodhew, Victor

          Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

          Bray, Ronald

          Gorst, John

          McNair-Wilson, Michael

          Brewis, John

          Gower, Raymond

          McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

          Brinton, Sir Tatton

          Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

          Maddan, Martin

          Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

          Gray, Hamish

          Madel, David

          Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

          Green, Alan

          Maginnis, John E.

          Bruce-Gardnee, J.

          Grieve, Percy

          Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

          Bryan, Paul

          Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

          Marten, Neil

          Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

          Grylls, Michael

          Mather, Carol

          Buck, Antony

          Gummer, Selwyn

          Maude, Angus

          Bullus, Sir Eric

          Gurden, Harold

          Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

          Burden, F. A.

          Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

          Mawby, Ray

          Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

          Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

          Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

          Carlisle, Mark

          Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

          Meyer, Sir Anthony

          Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

          Hannam, John (Exeter)

          Mills, Peter (Torrington)

          Chanson, Paul

          Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

          Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

          Chapman, Sydney

          Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

          Miscampbell, Norman

          Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

          Haslehurst, Alan

          Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

          Chichester-Clark, R.

          Hastings, Stephen

          Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

          Churchill, W. S.

          Havers, Michael

          Moate, Roger

          Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

          Hawkins, Paul

          Molyneaux, James

          Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

          Hayhoe, Barney

          Money, Ernie

          Clegg, Walter

          Heseltine, Michael

          Monks, Mrs. Connie

          Cockeram, Eric

          Hicks, Robert

          Monro, Hector

          Cooke, Robert

          Higgins, Terence L.

          Montgomery, Fergus

          Coombs, Derek

          Hiley, Joseph

          Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

          Cooper, A. E.

          Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

          Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

          Cordle, John

          Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

          Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

          Cormack, Patrick

          Holland, Philip

          Mudd, David

          Costain, A. P.

          Holt, Miss Mary

          Murton, Oscar

          Critchley, Julian

          Hordern, Peter

          Nabarro, Sir Gerald

          Crouch, David

          Hornby, Richard

          Neave, Airey

          Crowder, F. P.

          Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

          Nicholls, Sir Harmar

          Curran, Charles

          Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

          Normanton, Tom

          Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

          Howell, David (Guildford)

          Nott, John

          d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

          Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

          Onslow, Cranley

          d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

          Hunt, John

          Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

          Dean, Paul

          Hutchison, Michael Clark

          Osborn, John

          Deedes, Rt. Hn, W. F.

          Iremonger, T. L.

          Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

          Digby, Simon Wingfield

          James, David

          Page, Graham (Crosby)

          Dixon, Piers

          Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

          Page, John (Harrow, W.)

          Dodds-Parker, Douglas

          Jessel, Toby

          Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

          Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

          Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

          Peet, John

          Drayson, G. B.

          Jopling, Michael

          Percival, Ian

          'any person (including any trade union or other organisation of workers or any official of a trade union or of such an organisation)'.—[Mr. R. Carr.]
          Question Put, That the Amendment be made:—
          The Committee divided: Ayes 297, Nose 186.s

          Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

          Shelton, William (Clapham)

          Tugendhat, Christopher

          Pike, Miss Mervyn

          Simeons, Charles

          Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

          Pink, R. Bonner

          Sinclair, Sir George

          Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

          Pounder, Rafton

          Skeet, T. H. H.

          Vickers, Dame Joan

          Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

          Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

          Waddington, David

          Pricel, David (Eastleigh)

          Soref, Harold

          Walder, David (Clitheroe)

          Proudfoot, Wilfred

          Speed, Keith

          Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

          Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

          Spence, John

          Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

          Quennell, Miss J. M.

          Sproat, Iain

          Wall, Patrick

          Raison, Timothy

          Stainton, Keith

          Walters, Dennis

          Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

          Stanbrook, Ivor

          Ward, Dame Irene

          Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

          Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

          Warren, Kenneth

          Redmond, Robert

          Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

          Weatherill, Bernard

          Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

          Stokes, John

          Wells, John (Maidstone)

          Rees, Peter (Dover)

          Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

          White, Roger (Gravesend)

          Rees-Davies, W. R.

          Sutcliffe, John

          Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

          Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

          Tapsell, Peter

          Wiggin, Jerry

          Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

          Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

          Wilkinson, John

          Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

          Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

          Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

          Ridsdate, Julian

          Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

          Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

          Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

          Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

          Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

          Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

          Tebbit, Norman

          Woodnutt, Mark

          Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

          Temple, John M.

          Worsley, Marcus

          Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

          Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

          Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

          Rost, Peter

          Thomas, John Strading (Monmouth)

          Younger, Hn. George

          Royle, Anthony

          Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

          Russell, Sir Ronald

          Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

          TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

          St. John-Stevas, Norman

          Tilney, John

          Mr. Jasper More and

          Scott, Nicholas

          Trafford, Dr. Anthony

          Mr. Tim Fortescue.

          Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

          Trew, Peter

          NOES

          Allen, Scholefield

          Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

          Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

          Bagier, Gordon A. T.

          Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

          Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

          Barnett, Joel

          Hughes, Roy (Newport)

          Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

          Berney, Alan

          Hunter, Adam

          Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

          Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

          Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Moyle, Roland

          Booth, Albert

          John, Brynmor

          Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

          Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

          Murray, Ronald King

          Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

          Jones, Dan (Burnley)

          Ogden, Eric

          Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

          Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

          O'Halloran, Michael

          Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

          Kaufman, Gerald

          O'Malley, Brian

          Cant, R. B.

          Kelley, Richard

          Oram, Bert

          Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

          Lambie, David

          Orbach, Maurice

          Clark, David (Calne Valley)

          Lamond, James

          Orme, Stanley

          Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

          Latham, Arthur

          Oswald, Thomas

          Concannon, J. D.

          Lawson, George

          Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

          Conlan, Bernard

          Leadbitter, Ted

          Paget, R. T.

          Corbet, Mrs. Freda

          Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Palmer, Arthur

          Crawshaw, Richard

          Leonard, Dick

          Parker, John (Dagenham)

          Cronin, John

          Lester, Miss Joan

          Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

          Dalyell, Tam

          Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

          Pavitt, Laurie

          Davies, Ifor (Gower)

          Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

          Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

          Deakins, Eric

          Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

          Pendry, Tom

          Delargy, H. J.

          Lipton, Marcus

          Pentland, Norman

          Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

          Lomas, Kenneth

          Perry, Ernest G.

          Dempsey, James

          Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

          Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

          Doig, Peter

          Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

          Prescott, John

          Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

          Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

          Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

          Driberg, Tom

          McBride, Neil

          Price, William (Rugby)

          Eadie, Alex

          McCartney, Hugh

          Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

          Edwards, William (Merioneth)

          McElhone, Frank

          Probert, Arthur

          Ellis, Tom

          McGuire, Michael

          Rankin, John

          English, Michael

          Mackenzie, Gregor

          Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

          Evans, Fred

          Mackie, John

          Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

          Fernyhough, E.

          Mackintosh, John P.

          Richard, Ivor

          Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

          Maclennan, Robert

          Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

          Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

          McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

          Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

          Forrester, John

          McNamara, J. Kevin

          Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

          Freeson, Reginald

          MacPherson, Malcolm

          Roper, John

          Gordan Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

          Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

          Rose, Paul B.

          Grant, George (Morpeth)

          Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

          Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

          Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

          Marks, Kenneth

          Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

          Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

          Marquand, David

          Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

          Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

          Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

          Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

          Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

          Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

          Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

          Hardy, Peter

          Meacher, Michael

          Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

          Harper, Joseph

          Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

          Sillars, James

          Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

          Mendelson, John

          Silverman, Jullus

          Hattersley, Roy

          Mikardo, Ian

          Skinner, Dennis

          Heffer, Eric S.

          Millan, Bruce

          Small, William

          Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Miller, Dr. M. S.

          Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

          Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

          Milne, Edward (Blyth)

          Spearing, Nigel

          Huckfield, Leslie

          Molloy, William

          Spriggs, Leslie

          1066

          1067

          Stallard, A. W.

          Torney, Tom

          Whitlock, William

          Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

          Urwin, T. W.

          Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Stoddart, David (Swindon)

          Varley, Eric G.

          Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

          Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

          Wainwright, Edwin

          Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

          Strang, Gavin

          Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

          Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

          Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

          Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

          Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

          Swain, Thomas

          Wallace, George

          Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

          Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)

          Watkins, David

          Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

          Weitzman, David

          TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

          Thomson, Rt, Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

          Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

          Mr. John Golding and

          Tinn, James

          White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

          Mr. William Hamling.

          Tomney, Frank

          Whitehead, Phillip

          Amendment proposed: No. 479, in page 19, line 9, leave out 'organisation or'.—[Mr. R. Carr.]
          Question put, That the Amendment be made.
          The Committee proceeded to a Division—
          Mr. Molloy (seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Jennings. When I went through the "No" Lobby I dis-

          Division No. 104.]

          AYES

          [3.35 a.m.

          Adley, Robert

          Cordle, John

          Gurden, Harold

          Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

          Corfieid, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

          Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

          Cormack, Patrick

          Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

          Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

          Costain, A. P.

          Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

          Astor, John

          Critchley, Julian

          Hannam, John (Exeter)

          Atkins, Humphrey

          Crouch, David

          Harrison, Brian (Malden)

          Awdry, Daniel

          Crowder, F. P.

          Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

          Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

          Curran, Charles

          Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

          Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

          Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

          Haselhurst, Alan

          Balniel, Lord

          d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

          Hastings, Stephen

          Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

          d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

          Havers, Michael

          Batsford, Brian

          Dean, Paul

          Hawkins, Paul

          Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

          Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

          Hayhoe, Barney

          Bell, Ronald

          Digby, Simon Wingfield

          Heseltine, Michael

          Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

          Dixon, Piers

          Hicks, Robert

          Benyon, W.

          Dodds-Parker, Douglas

          Higgins, Terence L.

          Berry, Hn. Anthony

          Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

          Hiley, Joseph

          Biffen, John

          Drayson, G. B.

          Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

          Biggs-Davison, John

          du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

          Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

          Blaker, Peter

          Eden, Sir John

          Holland, Phillip

          Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

          Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

          Holt, Miss Mary

          Body, Richard

          Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carsha1ton)

          Hordern, Peter

          Boscawen, Robert

          Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

          Hornby, Richard

          Bossom, Sir Clive

          Emery, Peter

          Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

          Bowden, Andrew

          Eyre, Reginald

          Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

          Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

          Farr, John

          Howell, David (Guildford)

          Braine, Bernard

          Fell, Anthony

          Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

          Bray, Ronald

          Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

          Hunt, John

          Brewis, John

          Fidler, Michael

          Hutchison, Michael Clark

          Brinton, Sir Tatton

          Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

          Iremonger, T. L.

          Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

          James, David

          Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

          Fookes, Miss Janet

          Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

          Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

          Fortescue, Tim

          Jessel, Toby

          Bruce-Gardyne, J.

          Foster, Sir John

          Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

          Bryan, Paul

          Fowler, Norman

          Jopling, Michael

          Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

          Fox, Marcus

          Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

          Buck, Antony

          Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

          Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

          Bullus, Sir Erie

          Fry, Peter

          Kershaw, Anthony

          Burden, F. A.

          Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

          Kilfedder, James

          Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

          Gardner, Edward

          Kimball, Marcus

          Carlisle, Mark

          Gibson-Watt, David

          King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

          Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

          Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

          King, Tom (Bridgwater)

          Channon, Paul

          Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

          Kinsey, J. R.

          Chapman, Sydney

          Glyn, Dr. Alan

          Kirk, Peter

          Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

          Goodhart, Philip

          Kitson, Timothy

          Chichester-Clark, R.

          Gorst, John

          Knight, Mrs, Jill

          Churchill, W. S.

          Gower, Raymond

          Knox, David

          Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

          Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

          Lambton, Antony

          Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

          Gray, Hamish

          Lane, David

          Clegg, Walter

          Green, Alan

          Langford-Holt, Sir John

          Cockeram, Eric

          Grieve, Percy

          Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

          Cooke, Robert

          Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

          Le Marchant, Spencer

          Coombs, Derek

          Grylls, Michael

          Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

          Cooper, A. E.

          Gummer, Selwyn

          Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

          tinctly saw the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) going through that Lobby with me. I then saw him enter the "Aye" Lobby. Can you tell me whether that is in order?
          The Temporary Chairman (Mr. J. C. Jennings): It is in order for an hon. Gentleman to cancel out his own vote.
          The Committee having divided: Ayes 298, Noes 193.

          Longden, Gilbert

          Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

          Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

          Loveridge, John

          Page, Graham (Crosby)

          Stokes, John

          McAdden, Sir Stephen

          Page, John (Harrow, W.)

          Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

          MacArthur, Ian

          Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

          Sutcliffe, John

          McCrindle, R. A.

          Peel, John

          Tapsell, Peter

          McLaren, Martin

          Percival, Ian

          Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

          Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

          Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

          Taylor,Edward M.(C'gow,Cathcart)

          McMaster, Stanley

          Pike, Miss Mervyn

          Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

          Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

          Pink, R. Bonner

          Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

          McNair-Wilson, Michael

          Pounder, Rafton

          Tebbit, Norman

          McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

          Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

          Temple, John M.

          Madden, Martin

          Price, David (Eastleigh)

          Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

          Madel, David

          Proudfoot, Wilfred

          Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

          Maginnis, John E.

          Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

          Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

          Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

          Quennell, Miss J. M.

          Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

          Marten, Neil

          Raison, Timothy

          Tilney, John

          Mather, Carol

          Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

          Trafford, Dr. Anthony

          Maude, Angus

          Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

          Trew, Peter

          Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

          Redmond, Robert

          Tugendhat, Christopher

          Mawby, Ray

          Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

          Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

          Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

          Rees, Peter (Dover)

          Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

          Meyer, Sir Anthony

          Rees-Davies, W. R.

          Vickers, Dame Joan

          Mills, Peter (Torrington)

          Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

          Waddington, David

          Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

          Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

          Walder, David (Clitheroe)

          Miscampbell, Norman

          Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

          Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

          Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

          Ridsdale, Julian

          Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

          Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

          Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

          Wall, Patrick

          Moate, Roger

          Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

          Walters, Dennis

          Molyneaux, James

          Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

          Ward, Dame Irene

          Money, Ernle

          Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

          Warren, Kenneth

          Monks, Mrs. Connie

          Rost, Peter

          Weatherill, Bernard

          Monro, Hector

          Royle, Anthony

          Wells, John (Maidstone)

          Montgomery, Fergus

          Russell, Sir Ronald

          White, Roger (Gravesend)

          More, Jasper

          St. John-Stevas, Norman

          Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

          Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

          Scott, Nicholas

          Wiggin, Jerry

          Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

          Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

          Wilkinson, John

          Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

          Shelton, William (Clapham)

          Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

          Mudd, David

          Simeons, Charles

          Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

          Murton, Oscar

          Sinclair, Sir George

          Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

          Nabarro, Sir Gerald

          Skeet, T. H. H.

          Woodnutt, Mark

          Neave, Airey

          Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

          Worsley, Marcus

          Nicholls, Sir Harmar

          Soref, Harold

          Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

          Normanton, Tom

          Spence, John

          Younger, Hon. George

          Nott, John

          Sproat, Iain

          Onslow, Cranley

          Stainton, Keith

          TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

          Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

          Stanbrook, Ivor

          Mr. Victor Goodhew and

          Osborn, John

          Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

          Mr. Keith Speed.

          NOES

          Allen, Scholefield

          English, Michael

          Lamond, James

          Bagier, Gordon A. T.

          Evans, Fred

          Latham, Arthur

          Barnett, Joel

          Fernyhough, E.

          Lawson, George

          Beaney, Alan

          Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

          Leadbitter, Ted

          Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

          Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

          Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Boardman, H. (Leigh)

          Ford, Ben

          Leonard, Dick

          Booth, Albert

          Forrester, John

          Lestor, Miss Joan

          Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

          Fraser, John (Norwood)

          Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

          Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

          Freeson, Reginald

          Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

          Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

          Galpern, Sir Myer

          Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

          Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'bum)

          Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

          Lipton, Marcus

          Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

          Grant, George (Morpeth)

          Lomas, Kenneth

          Clark, David (Colne Valley)

          Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

          Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

          Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

          Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

          Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

          Cohen, Stanley

          Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

          Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

          Coleman, Donald

          Hardy, Peter

          McBride, Neil

          Concannon, J. D.

          Harper, Joseph

          McCartney, Hugh

          Conlan, Bernard

          Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

          McElhone, Frank

          Corbet, Mrs. Freda

          Hattersley, Roy

          McGuire, Michael

          Crawshaw, Richard

          Heffer, Eric S.

          Mackenzie, Gregor

          Cronin, John

          Hilton, W. S.

          Mackie, John

          Dalyell, Tam

          Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Mackintosh, John P.

          Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

          Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

          Maclennan, Robert

          Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

          Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

          McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

          Davies, Ifor (Gower)

          Hughes, Roy (Newport)

          McNamara, J. Kevin

          Deakins, Eric

          Hunter, Adam

          MacPherson, Malcolm

          de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

          Janner, Greville

          Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

          Delargy, H. J.

          Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

          Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

          John, Brynmor

          Marks, Kenneth

          Dempsey, James

          Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

          Marquand, David

          Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

          Jones, Dan (Burnley)

          Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

          Driberg, Tom

          Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

          Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

          Eadie, Alex

          Kaufman, Gerald

          Meacher, Michael

          Ellis, Tom

          Lambie, David

          Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

          1070

          1071

          Mendelson, John

          Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

          Swain, Thomas

          Mikardo, Ian

          Price, William (Rugby)

          Taverne, Dick

          Millan, Bruce

          Probert, Arthur

          Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

          Miller, Dr. M. S.

          Rankin, John

          Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

          Milne, Edward (Blyth)

          Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

          Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

          Molloy, William

          Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

          Tinn, James

          Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

          Richard, Ivor

          Tomney, Frank

          Morris, Alfred (Wythenshaw)

          Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

          Torney, Tom

          Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

          Roherts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

          Urwin, T. W.

          Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

          Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

          Varley, Eric G.

          Moyle, Roland

          Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

          Wainwright, Edwin

          Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Roper, John

          Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

          Murray, Ronald King

          Rose, Paul B.

          Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

          Ogden, Eric

          Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

          Wallace, George

          O'Halloran, Michael

          Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

          Watkins, David

          O'Malley, Brian

          Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

          Weitzman, David

          Oram, Bert

          Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

          Wellbeloveel, James

          Orbach, Maurice

          Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

          Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

          Orme, Stanley

          Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

          White James (Glasgow, Pollok)

          Oswald, Thomas

          Sillars, James

          Whitehead, Phillip

          Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

          Silverman, Julius

          Whitlock, William

          Paget, R. T.

          Skinner, Dennis

          Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Palmer, Arthur

          Small, William

          Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

          Parker, John (Dagenham)

          Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

          Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

          Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

          Spearing, Nigel

          Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

          Pavitt, Laurie

          Spriggs, Leslie

          Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

          Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

          Stallard, A. W.

          Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

          Pendry, Tom

          Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

          Pentland, Norman

          Stoddart, David (Swindon)

          TELLERS FOR THE NOES

          Perry, Ernest G.

          Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

          Mr. John Golding and

          Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

          Strang, Gavin

          Mr. William Hamling.

          Prescott, John

          Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

          Mr. Arthur Lewis: Further to that point of order—
          The Temporary Chairman (Mr. J. C. Jennings): Order. I am sorry but I can deal with no business other the guillotine business. Therefore, we cannot deal further with the point of order or a new point of order at this stage.
          Question put, That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
          The Committee proceeded to a Division—
          Mr. Arthur Lewis (seated and covered): On a point of order. A moment ago, Mr. Jennings, you unwittingly made a disparaging remark—not having a full knowledge of the facts—which might have been an imputation against me. I went into the other Lobby to find the Prime Minister. He was not there. There are hon. Members opposite who know that I went in to find the Prime Minister. I

          Division No. 105.]

          AYES

          [3.46 p.m.

          Adley, Robert

          Bell, Ronald

          Braise, Bernard

          Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

          Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

          Bray, Ronald

          Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

          Benyon, W.

          Brewis, John

          Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

          Berry, Hn. Anthony

          Brinton, Sir Tatton

          Astor, John

          Biffen, John

          Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

          Atkins, Humphrey

          Biggs-Davison, John

          Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

          Awdry, Daniel

          Blaker, Peter

          Bruce-Gardyne, J.

          Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

          Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

          Bryan, Paul

          Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

          Body, Richard

          Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

          Balniel, Lord

          Boscawen, R. T.

          Buck, Antony

          Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

          Bossom, Sir Clive

          Bullus, Sir Eric

          Batsford, Brian

          Bowden, Andrew

          Burden, F. A.

          Beamish, Col, Sir Tufton

          Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

          Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

          never voted twice; I voted with the Opposition and I would never vote with the Government. I ask you to bear that in mind and agree with me that there is nothing to stop me going into the other Lobby to try to find the Prime Minister.
          The Temporary Chairman: There is nothing disparaging about trying to find a Prime Minister, and certainly nothing disparaging in my remarks. Members have cancelled out their own votes before and that is what the explanation appeared to be to me. There was no intention to disparage the hon. Member.
          Mr. Arthur Lewis (seated and covered): Thank you, Mr. Jennings, for those remarks. Perhaps you might tell me where I could find the Prime Minister?
          The Temporary Chairman: Any time that the House is not sitting, at No. 10 Downing Street or Chequers.
          The Committee having divided: Ayes 298, Noes 209.

          Carlisle, Mark

          Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

          Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

          Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

          Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

          Page, Graham (Crosby)

          Channon, Paul

          Holland, Phillip

          Page, John (Harrow, W.)

          Chapman, Sydney

          Holt, Miss Mary

          Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

          Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

          Hordern, Peter

          Peel, John

          Chichester-Clark, R.

          Hornby, Richard

          Percival, Ian

          Churchill, W. S.

          Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

          Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

          Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

          Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

          Pike, Miss Mervyn

          Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

          Howell, David (Guildford)

          Pink, R. Bonner

          Clegg, Walter

          Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

          Pounder, Rafton

          Cockeram, Eric

          Hunt, John

          Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

          Cooke, Robert

          Hutchison, Michael Clark

          Price, David (Eastleigh)

          Coombs, Derek

          Iremonger, T. L.

          Proudfoot, Wilfred

          Cooper, A. E.

          James, David

          Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

          Cordle, John

          Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

          Quennell, Miss J. M.

          Corfield, F. V.

          Jessel, Toby

          Raison, Timothy

          Cormack, Patrick

          Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

          Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

          Costain, A. P.

          Jopling, Michael

          Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

          Critchley, Julian

          Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

          Redmond, Robert

          Crouch, David

          Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

          Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

          Crowder, F. P.

          Kershaw, Anthony

          Rees, Hn. Peter (Dover)

          Curran, Charles

          Kilfedder, James

          Rees-Davies, W. R.

          Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

          Kimball, Marcus

          Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

          d'Avigdor-Goldmid, Sir Henry

          King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

          Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

          d'Avigdor-Goldmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

          King, Tom (Bridgwater)

          Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

          Dean, Paul

          Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

          Kinsey, J. R.

          Ridsdale, Julian

          Digby, Simon Wingfield

          Kirk, Peter

          Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

          Dixon, Piers

          Kitson, Timothy

          Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

          Dodds-Parker, Douglas

          Knight, Mrs. Jill

          Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

          Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

          Knox, David

          Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

          Drayson, G. B.

          Lambton, Anthony

          Rost, Peter

          du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

          Lane, David

          Royle, Anthony

          Eden, Sir John

          Langford-Holt, Sir John

          Russell, Sir Ronald

          Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

          Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

          St. John-Stevas, Norman

          Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

          Le Marchant, Spencer

          Scott, Nicholas

          Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

          Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

          Shaw, Michael (Sc'h'gh & Whitby)

          Emery, Peter

          Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

          Shelton, William (Clapham)

          Eyre, Reginald

          Longden, Gilbert

          Simeons, Charles

          Farr, John

          Loveridge, John

          Sinclair, Sir George

          Fell, Anthony

          McAdden, Sir Stephen

          Skeet, T. H. H.

          Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

          MacArthur, Ian

          Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

          Fidler, Michael

          McCrindle, R. A.

          Soref, Harold

          Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

          McLaren, Martin

          Speed, Keith

          Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

          Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

          Spence, John

          Fookes, Miss Janet

          McMaster, Stanley

          Sproat, Iain

          Fortescue, Tim

          Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

          Stainton, Keith

          Foster, Sir John

          McNair-Wilson, Michael

          Stanbrook, Ivor

          Fowler, Norman

          McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

          Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

          Fox, Marcus

          Madden, Martin

          Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

          Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

          Madel, David

          Stokes, John

          Fry, Peter

          Maginnis, John E.

          Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

          Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

          Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

          Sutcliffe, John

          Gardner, Edward

          Marten, Neil

          Tapsell, Peter

          Gibson-Walt, David

          Mather, Carol

          Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

          Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

          Maude, Angus

          Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

          Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

          Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

          Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

          Glyn, Dr. Alan

          Mawby, Ray

          Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

          Goodhart, Philip

          Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

          Tebbit, Norman

          Goodhew, Victor

          Meyer, Sir Anthony

          Temple, John M.

          Gorst, John

          Mills, Peter (Torrington)

          Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

          Gower, Raymond

          Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

          Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

          Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

          Miscampbell, Norman

          Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

          Gray, Hamish

          Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

          Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

          Green, Alan

          Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

          Tilney, John

          Grieve, Percy

          Moats, Roger

          Trafford, Dr. Anthony

          Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

          Molyneaux, James

          Trew, Peter

          Grylls, Michael

          Money, Ernle D.

          Tugendhat, Christopher

          Gummer, Selwyn

          Monks, Mrs. Connie

          Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

          Gurden, Harold

          Monro, Hector

          Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

          Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

          Montgomery, Fergus

          Vickers, Dame Joan

          Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

          More, Jasper

          Waddington, David

          Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

          Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

          Walder, David (Clitheroe)

          Hannam, John (Exeter)

          Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

          Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

          Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

          Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

          Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

          Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

          Mudd, David

          Wall, Patrick

          Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

          Murton, Oscar

          Walters, Dennis

          Haselhurst, Alan

          Nabarro, Sir Gerald

          Ward, Dame Irene

          Hastings, Stephen

          Neave, Alrey

          Warren, Kenneth

          Havers, Michael

          Nicholls, Sir Harmer

          Wells, John (Maidstone)

          Hayhoe, Barney

          Normanton, Tom

          White, Roger (Gravesend)

          Heseltine, Michael

          Nott, John

          Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

          Hicks, Robert

          Onslow, Cranley

          Wiggin, Jerry

          Higgins, Terence L.

          Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

          Wilkinson, John

          Hiley, Joseph

          Osborn, John

          Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

          1074

          1075

          Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

          Woreley, Marcus

          TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

          Woodhouse, Hn. Christpher

          Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

          Mr. Bernard Weatherhill and

          Woodnutt, Mark

          Younger, Hn. George

          Mr. Paul Hawkins.

          NOES

          Albu, Austen

          Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

          Palmer, Arthur

          Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

          Hughes, Mark (Durham)

          Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

          Allen, Scholefield

          Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

          Pavitt, Laurie

          Armstrong, Ernest

          Hughes, Roy (Newport)

          Pearl, Rt. Hn. Fred

          Atkinson, Norman

          Hunter, Adam

          Pendry, Tom

          Bagier, Gordon A. T.

          Janner, Greville

          Pentland, Norman

          Barnett, Joel

          Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Perry, Ernest G.

          Beaney, Alan

          John, Brynmor

          Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

          Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

          Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

          Prescott, John

          Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

          Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

          Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

          Boardman, H. (Leigh)

          Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

          Price, William (Rugby)

          Booth, Albert

          Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

          Probert, Arthur

          Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

          Jones, Dan (Burnley)

          Rankin, John

          Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

          Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

          Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

          Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch&F'bury)

          Kaufman, Gerald

          Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

          Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

          Kinnock, Neil

          Richard, Ivor

          Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

          Lambie, David

          Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

          Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

          Lamond, James

          Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy (Caernarvon)

          Cant, R. B.

          Latham, Arthur

          Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

          Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

          Lawson, George

          Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

          Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

          Leadbitter, Ted

          Roper, John

          Clark, David (Colne Valley)

          Rose, Paul B.

          Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

          Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

          Cohen, Stanley

          Leonard, Dick

          Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

          Coleman, Donald

          Lestor, Miss John

          Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

          Concannon, J. D.

          Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

          Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

          Conlan, Bernard

          Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

          Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

          Corbet, Mrs. Freda

          Lipton, Marcus

          Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

          Crawshaw, Richard

          Lomas, Kenneth

          Sillars, James

          Cronin, John

          Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

          Silverman, Julius

          Dalyell, Tam

          Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

          Skinner, Dennis

          Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

          McBride, Neil

          Small, William

          Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

          McCartney, Hugh

          Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

          Davies, Ifor (Gower)

          McElhone, Frank

          Spearing, Nigel

          Deakins, Eric

          McGuire, Michael

          Spriggs, Leslie

          de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

          Mackenzie, Gregor

          Stallard, A. W.

          Delargy, H. J.

          Mackie, John

          Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

          Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

          Mackintosh, John P.

          Stoddart, David (Swindon)

          Dempsey, James

          Maclennan, Robert

          Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

          Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

          McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

          Strang, Gavin

          Douglas-Mann, Bruce

          McNamara, J. Kevin

          Summerskill, Hn, Dr, Shirley

          Driberg, Tom

          MacPherson, Malcolm

          Swain, Thomas

          Dunn, James A.

          Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

          Taverne, Dick

          Eadie, Alex

          Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

          Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

          Edelman, Maurice

          Marks, Kenneth

          Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

          Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

          Marquand, David

          Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

          Edwards, William (Merioneth)

          Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

          Tinn, James

          Ellis, Tom

          Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

          Tomney, Frank

          English, Michael

          Meacher, Michael

          Torney, Tom

          Evans, Fred

          Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

          Urwin, T. W.

          Fernyhough, E.

          Mendelson, John

          Varley, Eric G.

          Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

          Mikardo, Ian

          Wainwright, Edwin

          Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

          Millan, Bruce

          Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

          Fraser, John (Norwood)

          Miller, Dr. M. S.

          Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

          Freeson, Reginald

          Milne, Edward (Blyth)

          Wallace, George

          Galpern, Sir Myer

          Molloy, William

          Watkins, David

          Gordon Walker, Rt, Hn. P. C.

          Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

          Weitzman, David

          Grant, George (Morpeth)

          Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

          Wellbeloved, James

          Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

          Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

          Walls, William (Walsall, N.)

          Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

          Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

          White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

          Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

          Moyle, Roland

          Whitehead, Phillip

          Hardy, Peter

          Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Whitlock, William

          Harper, Joseph

          Murray, Ronald King

          Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

          Ogden, Eric

          Williams. Alan (Swansea, W.)

          Hattersley, Roy

          O'Halloran, Michael

          Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

          Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

          O'Malley, Brian

          Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

          Heffer, Eric S.

          Oram, Bert

          Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

          Hilton, W. S.

          Orbach, Maurice

          Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

          Horam, John

          Orme Stanley

          Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

          Oswald, Thomas

          TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

          Huckfield, Leslie

          Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

          Mr. John Go'ding and

          Paget, R. T.

          Mr. William Hamling.

          Clause 25, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
          Clause 26 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

        Clause 27

          QUALIFYING PERIOD AND UPPER AGE LIMIT
          Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
          The Committee proceeded to a Division—
          Mr. Loughlin (seated and covered): On a point of order. In view of your Ruling a short time ago, Sir Robert, I wonder whether you are now able to report to the Committee the findings of the Serjeant at Arms on the issue which

          Division No. 106.]

          AYES

          [3.58 a.m.

          Adley, Robert

          d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

          Higgins, Terence L.

          Allason, Michael (Barkston Ash)

          d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

          Hiley, Joseph

          Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

          Dean, Paul

          Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

          Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

          Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

          Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

          Astor, John

          Digby, Simon Wingfield

          Holland, Philip

          Atkins, Humphrey

          Dixon, Piers

          Holt, Miss Mary

          Awdry, Daniel

          Dodds-Parker, Douglas

          Hordern, Peter

          Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

          Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

          Hornby, Richard

          Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

          Drayson, G. B.

          Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

          Balniel, Lord

          du Cann, Rt. Hn, Edward

          Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Relgate)

          Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

          Eden, Sir John

          Howell, David (Guildord)

          Batsford, Brian

          Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

          Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

          Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

          Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

          Hunt, John

          Bell, Ronald

          Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

          Hutchison, Michael Clark

          Benyon, W.

          Emery, Peter

          Iremonger, T. L.

          Berry, Hn. Anthony

          Eyre, Reginald

          James, David

          Biffen, John

          Farr, John

          Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

          Biggs-Davison, John

          Fell, Anthony

          Jessel, Toby

          Blaker, Peter

          Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

          Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

          Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

          Fidler, Michael

          Jopling, Michael

          Body, Richard

          Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

          Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

          Boscawen, Robert

          Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

          Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

          Bossom, Sir Clive

          Fookes, Miss Janet

          Kershaw, Anthony

          Bowden, Andrew

          Foster, Sir John

          Kilfedder, James

          Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

          Fowler, Norman

          Kimball, Marcus

          Braine, Bernard

          Fox, Marcus

          King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

          Bray, Ronald

          Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

          King, Tom (Bridgwater)

          Brewis, John

          Fry, Peter

          Kinsey, J. R.

          Brinton, Sir Tatton

          Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

          Kirk, Peter

          Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

          Gardner, Edward

          Kitson, Timothy

          Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

          Gibson-Watt, David

          Knight, Mrs. Jill

          Bruce-Gardyne, J.

          Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

          Knox, David

          Bryan, Paul

          Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

          Lambton, Antony

          Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&M)

          Glyn, Dr. Alan

          Lane, David

          Buck, Antony

          Goodhart, Philip

          Langford-Holt, Sir John

          Bullus, Sir Eric

          Goodhew, Victor

          Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

          Burden, F. A.

          Gorst, John

          Le Marchant, Spencer

          Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

          Gower, Raymond

          Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

          Carlisle, Mark

          Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

          Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

          Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

          Gray, Hamish

          Longden, Gilbert

          Channon, Paul

          Green, Alan

          Loveridge, John

          Chapman, Sydney

          Grieve, Percy

          McAdden, Sir Stephen

          Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

          Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

          MacArthur, Ian

          Chichester-Clark, R.

          Gummer, Selwyn

          McCrindle, R. A.

          Churchill, W. S.

          Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

          McLaren, Martin

          Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

          Gurden, Harold

          Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

          Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

          Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

          McMaster, Stanley

          Cockeram, Eric

          Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

          Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

          Cooke, Robert

          Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

          McNair-Wilson, Michael

          Coombs, Derek

          Hannam, John (Exeter)

          McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

          Cooper, A. E.

          Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

          Maddan, Martin

          Cordle, John

          Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

          Madel, David

          Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

          Maginnis, John E.

          Cormack, Patrick

          Haselhurst, Alan

          Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

          Costain, A. P.

          Hastings, Stephen

          Marten, Neil

          Critchley, Julian

          Havers, Michael

          Mather, Carol

          Crouch, David

          Hawkins, Paul

          Maude, Angus

          Crowder, F. P.

          Hayhoe, Barney

          Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

          Curran, Charles

          Heseltine, Michael

          Mawby, Ray

          Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

          Hicks, Robert

          Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

          I raised earlier. We want to raise this matter as a breach of privilege unless the report is satisfactory. May I ask whether you are now in a position to report?
          The Chairman (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Yes. I had inquiries made and I have had a report from the Serjeant at Arms. I have taken advice upon the matter. I will read the report when the Committee proceedings are concluded and I resume the upper Chair.
          The Committee having divided: Ayes 298, Noes 252.

          Meyer, Sir Anthony

          Raison, Timothy

          Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

          Mills, Peter (Torrington)

          Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

          Tebbit, Norman

          Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

          Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

          Temple, John M.

          Miscampbell, Norman

          Redmond, Robert

          Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

          Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

          Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

          Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

          Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

          Rees, Peter (Dover)

          Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

          Moate, Roger

          Rees-Davies, W. R.

          Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

          Molyneaux, James

          Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

          Tilney, John

          Money, Ernle

          Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

          Trafford, Dr. Anthony

          Monks, Mrs. Connie

          Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

          Trew, Peter

          Monro, Hector

          Ridsdale, Julian

          Tugendhat, Christopher

          Montgomery, Fergus

          Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

          Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

          More, Jasper

          Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

          Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

          Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

          Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

          Vickers, Dame Joan

          Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

          Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

          Waddington, David

          Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

          Rost, Peter

          Walder, David (Clitheroe)

          Mudd, David

          Royle, Anthony

          Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

          Murton, Oscar

          Russell, Sir Ronald

          Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

          Nabarro, Sir Gerald

          St. John-Stevas, Norman

          Wall, Patrick

          Neave, Airey

          Scott, Nicholas

          Waiters, Dennis

          Nicholls, Sir Harmar

          Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

          Ward, Dame Irene

          Normanton, Tom

          Shelton, William (Clapham)

          Warren, Kenneth

          Nott, John

          Simeons, Charles

          Weatherill, Bernard

          Onslow, Cranley

          Sinclair, Sir George

          Wells, John (Maidstone)

          Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

          Skeet, T. H. H.

          White, Roger (Gravesend)

          Osborn, John

          Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

          Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

          Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

          Soref, Harold

          Wiggin, Jerry

          Page, Graham (Crosby)

          Speed, Keith

          Wilkinson, John

          Page, John (Harrow, W.)

          Spence, John

          Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

          Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

          Sproat, Iain

          Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

          Peel, John

          Stainton, Keith

          Wooddhouse, Hn. Christopher

          Percival, Ian

          Stanbrook, Ivor

          Woodnutt, Mark

          Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

          Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

          Worsley, Marcus

          Pike, Miss Mervyn

          Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

          Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

          Pink, R. Bonner

          Stokes, John

          Younger, Hn. George

          Pounder, Rafton

          Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

          Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

          Sutcliffe, John

          TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

          Price, David (Eastleigh)

          Tapsell, Peter

          Mr. Walter Clegg and

          Proudfoot, Wilfred

          Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

          Mr. Tim Fortescue.

          Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

          Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

          Queunell, Miss J. M.

          Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

          NOES

          Albu, Austen

          Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

          Freeson, Reginald

          Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

          Crawshaw, Richard

          Galpern, Sir Myer

          Allen, Scholefield

          Cronin, John

          Garrett, W. E.

          Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

          Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

          Gilbert, Dr. John

          Armstrong, Ernest

          Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

          Ginsburg, David

          Ashton, Joe

          Dalyell, Tam

          Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn, P. C.

          Atkinson, Norman

          Davidson, Arthur

          Grant, George (Morpeth)

          Bagier, Gordon A, T.

          Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

          Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

          Barnes, Michael

          Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

          Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

          Barnett, Joel Davies,

          Ifor (Gower)

          Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

          Beaney, Alan

          Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

          Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

          Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

          Deakins, Eric

          Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

          Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

          de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

          Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

          Bidwell, Sydney

          Delargy, H. J.

          Hardy, Peter

          Bishop, E. S.

          Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

          Harper, Joseph

          Blenkinsop, Arthur

          Dempsey, James

          Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

          Boardman, H. (Leigh)

          Doig, Peter

          Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

          Booth, Albert

          Dormand, J. D.

          Hattersley, Roy

          Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

          Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

          Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

          Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

          Douglas-Mann, Bruce

          Heffer, Eric S.

          Bradley, Tom

          Driberg, Tom

          Hilton, W. S.

          Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

          Duffy, A. E. P.

          Horam, John

          Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

          Dunn, James A.

          Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

          Dunnett, Jack

          Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

          Buchan, Norman

          Eadie, Alex

          Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

          Edelman, Maurice

          Huckfield, Leslie

          Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

          Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

          Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

          Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

          Edwards, William (Merioneth)

          Hughes, Mark (Durham)

          Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

          Ellis, Tom

          Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

          Cant, R. B.

          English, Michael

          Hughes, Roy (Newport)

          Carmichael, Neil

          Evans, Fred

          Hunter, Adem

          Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

          Fernyhough, E.

          Jenner, Greville

          Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

          Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

          Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

          Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

          Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

          Clark, David (Colne Valley)

          Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

          Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

          Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

          Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

          Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

          Cohen, Stanley

          Foley, Maurice

          John, Brynmor

          Coleman, Donald

          Foot, Michael

          Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

          Concannon, J. D.

          Ford, Ben

          Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

          Conlan, Bernard

          Forrester, John

          Johnson, Water (Derby, S.)

          Corbet, Mrs. Freda

          Fraser, John (Norwood)

          Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

          1080

          1081

          Jones, Dan (Burnley)

          Milne, Edward (Blyth)

          Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

          Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

          Molloy, William

          Sillars, James

          Kaufman, Gerald

          Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

          Silverman, Julius

          Kerr, Russell

          Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

          Skinner, Dennis

          Kinnock, Neil

          Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

          Small, William

          Lambie, David

          Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

          Smith, John (Lanarkshire. N.)

          Lamond, James

          Moyle, Roland

          Spearing, Nigel

          Latham, Arthur

          Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Spriggs, Leslie

          Lawson, George

          Murray, Ronald King

          Stallard, A. W.

          Leadbitter, Ted

          Ogden, Eric

          Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

          Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          O'Halloran, Michael

          Stoddart, David (Swindon)

          Leonard, Dick

          O'Malley, Brian

          Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

          Lestor, Miss Joan

          Oram, Bert

          Strang, Gavin

          Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

          Orbach, Maurice

          Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

          Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

          Orme, Stanley

          Swain, Thomas

          Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

          Oswald, Thomas

          Taverne, Dick

          Lipton, Marcus

          Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

          Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

          Lomas, Kenneth

          Paget, R. T.

          Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

          Loughlin, Charles

          Palmer, Arthur

          Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

          Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

          Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

          Tinn, James

          Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

          Pavitt, Laurie

          Torney, Tom

          Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

          Pearl, Rt. Hn. Fred

          Urwin, T. W.

          McBride, Neil

          Pendry, Tom

          Varley, Eric G.

          McCartney, Hugh

          Pentland, Norman

          Wainwright, Edwin

          McElhone, Frank

          Perry, Ernest G.

          Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

          McGuire, Michael

          Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

          Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

          Mackenzie, Gregor

          Prescott, John

          Wallace, George

          Mackie, John

          Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

          Watkins, David

          Mackintosh, John P.

          Price, William (Rugby)

          Weitzman, David

          Maclennan, Robert

          Probert, Arthur

          Wellbeloved, James

          McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

          Rankin, John

          Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

          McNamara, J. Kevin

          Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

          White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

          MacPherson, Malcolm

          Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

          Whitehead, Phillip

          Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

          Richard, Ivor

          Whitlock, William

          Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

          Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

          Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Marks, Kenneth

          Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

          Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

          Marquand, David

          Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

          Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

          Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

          Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

          Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

          Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

          Roper, John

          Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

          Meacher, Michael

          Rose, Paul B.

          Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

          Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

          Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

          Mendelson, John

          Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

          TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

          Mikardo, Ian

          Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

          Mr. John Golding and

          Millan, Bruce

          Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

          Mr. William Hamling

          Miller, Dr. M. S.

          Siikin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

          Clause 27 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

        Clause 28

          SUPPLEMENTARY PROVISIONS RELATING TO SECTIONS 26 AND 27
          Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
          The Committee divided: Ayes 297, Noes 251.

          Division No. 107.]

          AYES

          [4.10 a.m.

          Adley, Robert

          Berry, Hon. Anthony

          Bruce-Gardyne, J.

          Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

          Biffen, John

          Bryan, Paul

          Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

          Biggs-Davison, John

          Buchanan-Smlth,Alick(Angus,N&M)

          Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

          Blaker, Peter

          Buck, Antony

          Astor, John

          Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

          Bullus, Sir Eric

          Atkins, Humphrey

          Body, Richard

          Burden, F. A.

          Awdry, Daniel

          Boscawen, Robert

          Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

          Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

          Boseem, Sir Clive

          Carlisle, Mark

          Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

          Bowden, Andrew

          Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

          Balniel, Lord

          Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

          Channon, Paul

          Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

          Braine, Bernard

          Chapman, Sydney

          Batsford, Brian

          Bray, Ronald

          Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

          Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

          Brewis, John

          Chichester-Clark, R.

          Bell, Ronald

          Brinton, Sir Tatton

          Churchill, W. S.

          Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

          Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

          Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

          Benyon, W.

          Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

          Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

          1082

          1083

          Clegg, Walter

          Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

          Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

          Cockeram, Eric

          Hunt, John

          Price, David (Eastleigh)

          Cooke, Robert

          Hutchison, Michael Clark

          Proudfoot, Wilfred

          Coombs, Derek

          Iremonger, T. L.

          Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

          Cooper, A. E.

          James, David

          Quennell, Miss J. M.

          Cordle, John

          Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

          Raison, Timothy

          Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Jeasel, Toby

          Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

          Cormack, Patrick

          Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

          Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

          Costain, A. P.

          Jopling, Michael

          Redmond, Robert

          Critchley, Julian

          Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

          Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

          Crouch, David

          Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

          Rees, Peter (Dover)

          Crowder, F. P.

          Kershaw, Anthony

          Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

          Curran, Charles

          Kilfedder, James

          Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

          Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

          Kimball, Marcus

          Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

          d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

          King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

          Ridsdale, Julian

          d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

          King, Tom (Bridgwater)

          Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

          Dean, Paul

          Kinsey, J. R.

          Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

          Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

          Kirk, Peter

          Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

          Digby, Simon Wingfield

          Kitson, Timothy

          Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

          Dixon, Piers

          Knight, Mrs. Jill

          Rost, Peter

          Dodds-Parker, Douglas

          Knox, David

          Royle, Anthony

          Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

          Lambton, Antony

          Russell, Sir Ronald

          Drayson, G. B.

          Lane, David

          St. John-Stevas, Norman

          du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

          Langford-Holt, Sir John

          Scott, Nicholas

          Eden, Sir John

          Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

          Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

          Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

          Le Marchant, Spencer

          Shelton, William (Clapham)

          Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

          Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

          Simeons, Charles

          Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.N.)

          Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

          Sinclair, Sir George

          Emery, Peter

          Longden, Gilbert

          Skeet, T. H. H.

          Eyre, Reginald

          Loveridge, John

          Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

          Farr, John

          McAdden, Sir Stephen

          Soref, Harold

          Fell, Anthony

          MacArthur, Ian

          Speed, Keith

          Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

          McCrindle, R. A.

          Spence, John

          Fidler, Michael

          McLaren, Martin

          Sproat, Iain

          Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

          Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

          Stainton, Keith

          Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

          McMaster, Stanley

          Stanbrook, Ivor

          Fookes, Miss Janet

          Macmillan, Maurioe (Farnham)

          Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

          Fortescue, Tim

          McNair-Wilson, Michael

          Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

          Foster, Sir John

          McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

          Stokes, John

          Fowler, Norman

          Maddan, Martin

          Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

          Fox, Marcus

          Madel, David

          Sutcliffe, John

          Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

          Maginnis, John E.

          Tapsell, Peter

          Fry, Peter

          Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

          Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

          Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

          Marten, Neil

          Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

          Gardner, Edward

          Mather, Carol

          Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

          Gibson-Watt, David

          Maude, Angus

          Talyor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

          Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

          Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

          Tebbit, Norman

          Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

          Mawby, Ray

          Temple, John M.

          Glyn, Dr. Alan

          Maxell-Hyslop, R. J.

          Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

          Goodhart, Philip

          Meyer, Sir Anthony

          Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

          Gorst, John

          Mills, Peter (Torrington)

          Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

          Gower, Raymond

          Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

          Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

          Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

          Miscampbell, Norman

          Tilney, John

          Gray, Hamish

          Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aherdeenshire,W)

          Trafford, Dr. Anthony

          Green, Alan

          Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

          Trew, Peter

          Grieve, Percy

          Moats, Roger

          Tugendhat, Christopher

          Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

          Molyneaux, James

          Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

          Grylls, Michael

          Money, Ernie

          Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

          Gummer, Selwyn

          Monks, Mrs. Connie

          Vickers,Dame Joan

          Gurden, Harold

          Montgomery, Fergus

          Waddington, David

          Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

          More, Jasper

          Walder, David (Clitheroe)

          Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

          Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

          Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

          Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

          Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

          Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

          Hannam, John (Exeter)

          Morrison, Charles (Devices)

          Wall, Patrick

          Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

          Mudd, David

          Walters, Dennis

          Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

          Murton, Oscar

          Ward, Dame Irene

          Haselhurst, Alan

          Nabarro, Sir Gerald

          Warren, Kenneth

          Hastings, Stephen

          Neave, Ainey

          Weatherill, Bernard

          Havers, Michael

          Nicholls, Sir Harmar

          Wells, John (Maidstone)

          Hawkins, Paul

          Normanton, Tom

          White, Roger (Gravesend)

          Hayhoe, Barney

          Nott, John

          Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

          Heseltine, Michael

          Onslow, Crantey

          Wiggin, Jerry

          Hicks, Robert

          Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

          Wilkinson, John

          Higgins, Terence L.

          Osborn, John

          Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

          Hiley, Joseph

          Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

          Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

          Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

          Page, Graham (Crosby)

          Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

          Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

          Page, John (Harrow, W.)

          Woodnutt, Mark

          Holland, Philip

          Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

          Worsley, Marcus

          Holt, Miss Mary

          Peel, John

          Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

          Hordern, Peter

          Percival, Ian

          Younger, Hn. George

          Hernby, Richard

          Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

          TELLERS FOR THE AYES

          Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

          Pike, Miss Mervyn

          Mr. Hector Monro and

          Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

          Pink, R. Banner

          Mr. Victor Goodhew.

          Howell, David (Guildford)

          Pounder, Rafton

          1084

          1085

          NOES

          Albu, Austen

          Fraser, John (Norwood)

          Mikardo, Ian

          Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

          Freeson, Reginald

          Millan, Bruce

          Allen, Scholefield

          Galpern, Sir Myer

          Miller, Dr. M. S.

          Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

          Garrett, W. E.

          Milne, Edward (Blyth)

          Armstrong, Ernest

          Gilbert, Dr. John

          Molloy, William

          Ashton, Joe

          Ginsburg, David

          Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

          Atkinson, Norman

          Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

          Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

          Bagier, Gordon A. T.

          Grant, George (Morpeth)

          Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

          Barnes, Michael

          Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

          Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

          Barnett, Joel

          Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

          Moyle, Roland

          Beaney, Alan

          Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

          Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Bann, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

          Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

          Murray, Ronald King

          Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

          Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

          Ogden, Eric

          Bidwell, Sydney

          Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

          O'Halloran, Michael

          Bishop, E. S.

          Hardy, Peter

          O'Malley, Brian

          Blenkinsop, Arthur

          Harper, Joseph

          Oram, Bert

          Boardman, H. (Leigh)

          Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

          Orbach, Maurice

          Booth, Albert

          Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

          Orme, Stanley

          Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

          Hattersley, Roy

          Oswald, Thomas

          Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

          Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

          Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

          Bradley, Tom

          Heffer, Eric S.

          Paget, W. T.

          Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne)

          Hilton, W. S.

          Palmer, Arthur

          Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

          Horam, John

          Parker, John (Dagenham)

          Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Parry, Robert (Livarpool, Exchange)

          Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

          Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

          Pavitt, Laurie

          Buchan, Norman

          Huckfield, Leslie

          Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

          Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

          Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

          Pendry, Tom

          Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

          Hughes, Mark (Durham)

          Pentland, Norman

          Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

          Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

          Perry, Ernest G.

          Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

          Hughes, Roy (Newport)

          Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

          Cant, R. B.

          Hunter, Adam

          Prescott, John

          Carmichael, Neil

          Janner, Greville

          Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

          Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

          Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Price, William (Rugby)

          Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

          Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

          Probert, Arthur

          Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

          Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

          Rankin, John

          Clark, David (Colne Valley)

          Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

          Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

          Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

          John, Brynmor

          Roes, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

          Cohen, Stanley

          Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

          Richard, Ivor

          Coleman, Donald

          Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

          Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

          Concannon, J. D.

          Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

          Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

          Conlan, Bernard

          Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

          Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

          Corbet, Mrs. Freda

          Jones, Dan (Burnley)

          Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

          Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

          Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

          Roper, John

          Crawshaw, Richard

          Kaufman, Gerald

          Rose, Paul B.

          Cronin, John

          Kerr, Russell

          Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

          Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

          Kinnock, Neil

          Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

          Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

          Lambie, David

          Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

          Dalyell, Tam

          Lamond, James

          Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

          Darling, Rt. Hn. George

          Latham, Arthur

          Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

          Davidson, Arthur

          Lawson, George

          Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

          Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

          Leadbitter, Ted

          Sillars, James

          Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

          Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Silverman, Julius

          Davies, Ifor (Gower)

          Leonard, Dick

          Skinner, Dennis

          Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

          Lestor, Miss Joan

          Small, William

          Deakins, Eric

          Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

          Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

          de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

          Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

          Spearing, Nigel

          Dalargy, H. J.

          Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

          Spriggs, Leslie

          Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

          Lipton, Marcus

          Stallard, A. W.

          Dempsey, James

          Lomas, Kenneth

          Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

          Doig, Peter

          Loughlin, Charles

          Stoddart, David (Swindon)

          Dormand, J. D.

          Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

          Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

          Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

          Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

          Strang, Gavin

          Douglas-Mann, Bruce

          Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

          Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

          Driberg, Tom

          McBride, Neil

          Swain, Thomas

          Duffy, A. E. P.

          McCartney, Hugh

          Taverne, Dick

          Dunn, James A.

          McElhone, Frank

          Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

          Dunnett, Jack

          McGuire, Michael

          Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

          Eadie, Alex

          Mackenzie, Gregor

          Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

          Edelman, Maurice

          Mackie, John

          Tinn, James

          Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

          Mackintosh, John P.

          Torney, Tom

          Edwards, William (Merioneth)

          Maclennan, Robert

          Urwin, T. W.

          Ellis, Tom

          McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

          Varley, Eric G.

          English, Michael

          McNamara, J. Kevin

          Wainwright, Edwin

          Evans, Fred

          MacPherson, Malcolm

          Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

          Fernyhough, E.

          Mahon, Simon (Boodle)

          Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

          Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

          Mallalieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield, E.)

          Wallace, George

          Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

          Marks, Kenneth

          Watkins, David

          Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

          Marquand, David

          Weitzman, David

          Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

          Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

          Wellbeloved, James

          Foley, Maurice

          Meacher, Michael

          Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

          Foot, Michael

          Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

          White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

          Forrester, John

          Mendelson, John

          Whitehead, Phillip

          1086

          1087

          Whitlock, William

          Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

          TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

          Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

          Mr.John Golding and

          Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

          Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

          Mr. William Hamling.

          Clause 28 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
          Clause 29 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

        Clause 30

          EXCLUSION IN RESPECT OF PROCEDURE AGREEMENT
          Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
          The Committee divided: Ayes 297, Noes 250.

          Division No. 108.]

          AYES

          [4.23 a.m.

          Adley, Robert

          Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Gurden, Harold

          Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

          Cormack, Patrick

          Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

          Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

          Costain, A. P.

          Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

          Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

          Critchley, Julian

          Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

          Astor, John

          Crouch, David

          Hannam, John (Exeter)

          Atkins, Humphrey

          Crowder, F. P.

          Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

          Awdry, Daniel

          Curran, Charles

          Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

          Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

          Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

          Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

          Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

          d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

          Haselhurst, Alan

          Balniel, Lord

          d'Avigdor-Goidsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

          Hastings, Stephen

          Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

          Dean, Paul

          Havers, Michael

          Batsford, Brian

          Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

          Hayhoe, Barney

          Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

          Digby, Simon Wingfield

          Heseltine, Michael

          Bell, Ronald

          Dixon, Piers

          Hicks, Robert

          Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

          Dodds-Parker, Douglas

          Higgins, Terence L.

          Benyon, W.

          Douglas-Mann, Bruce

          Hiley, Joseph

          Berry, Hon. Anthony

          Drayson, G. B.

          Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

          Biffen, John

          du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

          Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

          Biggs-Davison, John

          Eden, Sir John

          Holland, Philip

          Blaker, Peter

          Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

          Holt, Miss Mary

          Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

          Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

          Hordern, Peter

          Body, Richard

          Elliott, R. W. (N'e'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

          Hornby, Richard

          Boscawen, Robert

          Emery, Peter

          Hornshby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

          Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

          Bossom, Sir Clive

          Eyre, Reginald

          Howell, David (Guildford)

          Bowden, Andrew

          Farr, John

          Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

          Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

          Fell, Anthony

          Hunt, John

          Braine, Bernard

          Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

          Hutchison, Michael Clark

          Bray, Ronald

          Fidler, Michael

          Iremonger, T. L.

          Brewis, John

          Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

          James, David

          Brinton, Sir Tatton

          Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

          Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

          Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

          Fookes, Miss Janet

          Jessel, Toby

          Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

          Fortescue, Tim

          Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

          Bruce-Gardyne, J.

          Foster, Sir John

          Jopling, Michael

          Bryan, Paul

          Fowler, Norman

          Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

          Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

          Fox, Marcus

          Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

          Buck, Anthony

          Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

          Kershaw, Anthony

          Bullus, Sir Eric

          Fry, Peter

          Kilfedder, James

          Burden, F. A.

          Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

          Kimball, Marcus

          Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

          Gardner, Edward

          King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

          Carlisle, Mark

          Gibson-Watt, David

          King, Tom (Bridgwater)

          Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

          Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

          Kinsey, J. R.

          Channon, Paul

          Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

          Kirk, Peter

          Chapman, Sydney

          Glyn, Dr. Alan

          Kitson, Timothy

          Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

          Goodhart, Philip

          Knight, Mrs. Jill

          Chichester-Clark, R.

          Goodhew, Victor

          Knox, David

          Churchill, W. S.

          Gorst, John

          Lambton, Antony

          Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

          Gower, Raymond

          Lane, David

          Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

          Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

          Langford-Holt, Sir John

          Clegg, Walter

          Gray, Hamish

          Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

          Cockeram, Eric

          Green, Alan

          Le Marchant, Spencer

          Cooke, Robert

          Grieve, Percy

          Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

          Coombs, Derek

          Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

          Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

          Cooper, A. E.

          Grylls, Michael

          Longden, Gilbert

          Cordle, John

          Gummer, Selwyn

          Loveridge, John

          1088

          1089

          McAdden, Sir Stephen

          Page, Graham (Crosby)

          Stokes, John

          MacArthur, Ian

          Page, John (Harrow, W.)

          Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

          McCrindle, R. A.

          Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

          Sutcliffe, John

          McLaren, Martin

          Peel, John

          Tapsell, Peter

          Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

          Percival, Ian

          Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

          McMaster, Stanley

          Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

          Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

          Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

          Pike, Miss Mervyn

          Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

          McNair-Wilson, Michael

          Pink, R. Bonner

          Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

          McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

          Pounder, Rafton

          Tebbit, Norman

          Maddan, Martin

          Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

          Temple, John M.

          Madel, David

          Price, David (Eastleigh)

          Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

          Maginnis, John E.

          Proudfoot, Wilfred

          Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

          Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

          Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

          Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

          Marten, Neil

          Quennell, Miss J. M.

          Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

          Mather, Carol

          Raison, Timothy

          Tilney, John

          Maude, Angus

          Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

          Trafford, Dr. Anthony

          Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

          Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

          Trew, Peter

          Mawby, Ray

          Redmond, Robert

          Tugendhat, Christopher

          Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

          Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

          Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

          Meyer, Sir Anthony

          Rees, Peter (Dover)

          Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

          Mills, Peter (Torrington)

          Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

          Vickers, Dame Joan

          Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

          Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

          Waddington, David

          Miscampbell, Norman

          Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

          Welder, David (Clitheroe)

          Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

          Ridsdale, Julian

          Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

          Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

          Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

          Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

          Moate, Roger

          Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

          Wall, Patrick

          Molyneaux, James

          Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

          Walters, Dennis

          Money, Ernle

          Rost, Peter

          Ward, Dame Irene

          Monks, Mrs. Connie

          Royle, Anthony

          Warren, Kenneth

          Monro, Hector

          Russell, Sir Ronald

          Weatherill, Bernard

          Montgomery, Fergus

          St. John-Stevas, Norman

          Wells, John (Maidstone)

          More, Jasper

          Scott, Nicholas

          White, Roger (Gravesend)

          Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

          Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

          Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

          Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

          Shelton, William (Clapham)

          Wiggin, Jerry

          Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

          Simeon, Charles

          Wilkinson, John

          Mudd, David

          Sinclair, Sir George

          Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

          Murton, Oscar

          Skeet, T. H. H.

          Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

          Nabarro, Sir Gerald

          Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

          Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

          Neave, Airey

          Soref, Harold

          Woodnutt, Mark

          Nicholls, Sir Harmar

          Speed, Keith

          Worsley, Marcus

          Normanton, Tom

          Spence, John

          Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

          Nott, John

          Sproat, Iain

          Younger, Hn. George

          Onslow, Cranley

          Stainton, Keith

          Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

          Stanbrook, Ivor

          TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

          Osborn, John

          Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

          Mr. Paul Hawkins and

          Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

          Stoddarf-Scott, Col. Sir M.

          Mr. Hugh Rossi.

          NOES

          Albu, Austen

          Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

          Ellis, Tom

          Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

          Cohen, Stanley

          English, Michael

          Allen, Scholefield

          Coleman, Donald

          Evans, Fred

          Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

          Concannon, J. D.

          Fernyhough, E.

          Armstrong, Ernest

          Conlan, Bernard

          Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

          Ashton, Joe

          Corbet, Mrs. Freda

          Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

          Atkinson, Norman

          Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

          Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

          Bagier, Gordon A. T.

          Crawehaw, Richard

          Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

          Barnes, Michael

          Cronin, John

          Foley, Maurice

          Barnett, Joel

          Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

          Foot, Michael

          Beaney, Alan

          Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

          Ford, Ben

          Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

          Dalyell, Tam

          Forrester, John

          Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

          Darling, Rt. Hn. George

          Fraser, John (Norwood)

          Bidwell, Sydney

          Davidson, Arthur

          Freeson, Reginald

          Bishop, E. S.

          Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

          Galpern, Sir Myer

          Blenkinsop, Arthur

          Davies, G. Elfd (Rhondda, E.)

          Garrett, W. E.

          Boardman, H. (Leigh)

          Davies, Ifor (Gower)

          Gilbert, Dr. John

          Booth, Albert

          Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

          Ginsburg, David

          Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

          Deakins, Eric

          Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

          Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

          de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

          Grant, George (Morpeth)

          Bradley, Tom

          Delargy, H. J.

          Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

          Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

          Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

          Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

          Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Proven)

          Dempsey, James

          Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

          Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

          Doig, Peter

          Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

          Buchan, Norman

          Dormand, J. D.

          Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

          Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, S'hurn)

          Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

          Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

          Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

          Douglas-Mann, Bruce

          Hardy, Peter

          Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

          Driberg, Tom

          Harper, Joseph

          Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

          Duffy, A. E. P.

          Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

          Cant, R. B.

          Dunn, James A.

          Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

          Carmichael, Neil

          Dunnett, Jack

          Hattersley, Roy

          Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

          Eadie, Alex

          Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

          Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

          Edelman, Maurice

          Heffer, Eric S.

          Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

          Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

          Hilton, W. S.

          Clark, David (Colne Valley)

          Edwards, William (Merioneth)

          Horam, John

          1090

          1091

          Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          MacPherson, Malcolm

          Roper, John

          Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

          Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

          Rose, Paul B.

          Huckfield, Leslie

          Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

          Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

          Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

          Marks, Kenneth

          Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

          Hughes, Mark (Durham)

          Marquand, David

          Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

          Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

          Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

          Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

          Hughes, Roy (Newport)

          Meacher, Michael

          Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

          Hunter, Adam

          Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

          Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

          Janner, Creville

          Mendelson, John

          Sillars, James

          Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Mikardo, Ian

          Silverman, Julius

          Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

          Millan, Bruce

          Skinner, Dennis

          Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

          Miller, Dr. M. S.

          Small, William

          Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

          Milne, Edward (Myth)

          Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

          John, Brynmor

          Molloy, William

          Spearing, Nigel

          Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

          Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

          Spriggs, Leslie

          Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

          Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

          Stallard, A. W.

          Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

          Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

          Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

          Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

          Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

          Stoddart, David (Swindon)

          Jones, Dan (Burnley)

          Moyle, Roland

          Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

          Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

          Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Strang, Gavin

          Kaufman, Gerald

          Murray, Ronald King

          Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

          Kerr, Russell

          Ogden, Eric

          Swain, Thomas

          Kinnock, Neil

          O'Halloran, Michael

          Taverne, Dick

          Lamble, David

          O'Malley, Brian

          Thomas,Rt,Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)

          Lamond, James

          Oram, Bert

          Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

          Latham, Arthur

          Orbach, Maurice

          Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

          Lawson, George

          Orme, Stanley

          Tinn, James

          Leadbitter, Ted

          Oswald, Thomas

          Torney, Tom

          Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

          Urwin, T. W.

          Leonard, Dick

          Paget, R. T.

          Varley, Eric G.

          Lestor, Miss Joan

          Palmer, Arthur

          Wainwright, Edwin

          Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

          Parker, John (Dagenham)

          Wallace, George

          Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

          Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

          Watkins, David

          Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

          Pavitt, Laurie

          Weitzman, David

          Lipton, Marcus

          Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

          Wellbeloved, James

          Lomas, Kenneth

          Pendry, Tom

          Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

          Loughlin, Charles

          Pentland, Norman

          White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

          Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

          Perry, Ernest G.

          Whitehead, Phillip

          Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

          Prentice, Rt. Hn, Reg.

          Whitlock, William

          Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

          Prescott, John

          Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          McBride, Neil

          Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

          Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

          McCartney, Hugh

          Price, William (Rugby)

          Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

          McElhone, Frank

          Probert, Arthur

          Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

          McGuire, Michael

          Rankin, John

          Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

          Mackenzie, Gregor

          Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

          Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

          Mackie, John

          Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

          Mackintosh, John P.

          Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

          TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

          Maclennan, Robert

          Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

          Mr. John Golding and

          McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

          Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

          Mr. William Hamling.

          McNamara, J. Kevin

          Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

          Clause 30 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

        Clause 31

          REVOCATION OF EXCLUSION UNDER SECTION 30
          Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
          The Committee divided: Ayes 297, Noes 255.

          Division No. 109.]

          AYES

          [4.32 a.m.

          Adley, Robert

          Bell, Ronald

          Braine, Bernard

          Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

          Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

          Bray, Ronald

          Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

          Benyon, W.

          Brewis, John

          Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

          Berry, Hn. Anthony

          Brinton, Sir Tatton

          Astor, John

          Biffen, John

          Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

          Atkins, Humphrey

          Biggs-Davison, John

          Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

          Awdry, Daniel

          Blaker, Peter

          Bruce-Gardyne, J.

          Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

          Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

          Bryan, Paul

          Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

          Body, Richard

          Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

          Balniel, Lord

          Boscawen, Robert

          Buck, Antony

          Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

          Bossom, Sir Clive

          Bullus, Sir Eric

          Batsford, Brian

          Bowden, Andrew

          Burden, F. A.

          Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

          Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

          Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

          1092

          1093

          Carlisle, Mark

          Hiley, Joseph

          Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

          Carr, Rt. Hn, Robert

          Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

          Page, Graham (Crosby)

          Channon, Paul

          Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

          Page, John (Harrow, W.)

          Chapman, Sydney

          Holland, Philip

          Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

          Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

          Holt, Miss Mary

          Peel, John

          Chichester-Clark, R.

          Hordern, Peter

          Percival, Ian

          Churchill, W. S.

          Hornby, Richard

          Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

          Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

          Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

          Pike, Miss Mervyn

          Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

          Howe, Hn, Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

          Pink, R. Bonner

          Cockeram, Eric

          Howell, David (Guildford)

          Pounder, Rafton

          Cooke, Robert

          Howell,Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

          Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

          Coombs, Derek

          Hunt, John

          Price, David (Eastleigh)

          Cooper, A. E.

          Hutchison, Michael Clark

          Proudfoot, Wilfred

          Cordle, John

          Iremonger, T. L.

          Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

          Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          James, David

          Quennell, Miss J. M.

          Cormack, Patrick

          Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

          Raison, Timothy

          Castain, A. P.

          Jessel, Toby

          Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

          Critchley, Julian

          Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

          Rawlinson, Rt. Hn, Sir Peter

          Crouch, David

          Jopling, Michael

          Redmond, Robert

          Crowder, F. P.

          Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

          Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

          Curran, Charles

          Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

          Rees, Peter (Dover)

          Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

          Kershaw, Anthony

          Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

          d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

          Kilfedder, James

          Rhys Williams, Sir Brandor

          d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

          Kimball, Marcus

          Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

          Dean, Paul

          King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

          Ridsdale, Julian

          Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

          King, Tom (Bridgwater)

          Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

          Digby, Simon Wingfield

          Kinsey, J. R.

          Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

          Dixon, Piers

          Kirk, Peter

          Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

          Dodds-Parker, Douglas

          Kitson, Timothy

          Rossi, Hugh (Hornsby)

          Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

          Knight, Mrs. Jill

          Rost, Peter

          Drayson, G. B.

          Knox, David

          Royle, Anthony

          du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

          Lambton, Antony

          Russell, Sir Ronald

          Eden, Sir John

          Lane, David

          St. John-Stevas, Norman

          Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

          Langford-Holt, Sir John

          Scott, Nicholas

          Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

          Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

          Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

          Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

          Le Marchant, Spencer

          Shelton, William (Clapham)

          Emery, Peter

          Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

          Simeons, Charles

          Eyre, Reginald

          Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

          Sinclair, Sir George

          Farr, John

          Longden, Gilbert

          Skeet, T. H. H.

          Fell, Anthony

          Loveridge, John

          Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

          Fanner, Mrs. Peggy

          McAdden, Sir Stephen

          Soref, Harold

          Fidler, Michael

          MacArthur, Ian

          Speed, Keith

          Fineberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

          McCrindle, R. A.

          Spence, John

          Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

          McLaren, Martin

          Sproat, Iain

          Fookes, Miss Janet

          Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

          Stainton, Keith

          Fortescue, Tim

          McMaster, Stanley

          Stanbrook, Ivor

          Foster, Sir John

          Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

          Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

          Fowler, Norman

          McNair-Wilson, Michael

          Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

          Fox, Marcus

          McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

          Stokes, John

          Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

          Madden, Martin

          Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

          Fry, Peter

          Madel, David

          Sutcliffe, John

          Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

          Maginnis, John E.

          Tapsell, Peter

          Gardner, Edward

          Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

          Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

          Gibson-Watt, David

          Marten, Nell

          Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

          Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

          Mather, Carol

          Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

          Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

          Maude, Angus

          Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W,)

          Glyn, Dr. Alan

          Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

          Tebbit, Norman

          Goodhart, Philip

          Mawby, Ray

          Temple, John M.

          Goodhew, Victor

          Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

          Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

          Gorst, John

          Meyer, Sir Anthony

          Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

          Gower, Raymond

          Mills, Peter (Torrington)

          Thomas, Rt Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

          Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

          Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

          Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

          Gray, Hamish

          Miscampbell, Norman

          Tilney, John

          Green, Alan

          Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C(Aberdeenshire,W)

          Trafford, Dr. Anthony

          Grieve, Percy

          Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

          Trew, Peter

          Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

          Moate, Roger

          Tugendhat, Christopher

          Grylls, Michael

          Molyneaux, James

          Turton, Rt, Hn. R. H.

          Gummer, Selwyn

          Money, Ernle

          Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

          Gurden, Harold

          Monks, Mrs. Connie

          Vickers, Dame Joan

          Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

          Monro, Hector

          Waddington, David

          Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

          Montgomery, Fergus

          Welder, David (Clitheroe)

          Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

          Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

          Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

          Hannam, John (Exeter)

          Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

          Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

          Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

          Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

          Wall, Patrick

          Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

          Mudd, David

          Walters, Dennis

          Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

          Murton, Oscar

          Ward, Dame Irene

          Haselhurst, Alan

          Nabarro, Sir Gerald

          Warren, Kenneth

          Hastings, Stephen

          Neave, Alrey

          Weatherill, Bernard

          Havers, Michael

          Nicholls, Sir Harmar

          Wells, John (Maidstone)

          Hawkins, Paul

          Normanton, Tom

          White, Roger (Gravesend)

          Hayhoe, Barney

          Nott, John

          Whiteilaw, Rt, Hn. William.

          Heseltine, Michael

          Onslow, Cranley

          Wiggin, Jerry

          Hicks, Robert

          Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

          Wilkinson, John

          Higgins, Terence L.

          Osborn, John

          Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

          1094

          1095

          Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

          Worsley, Marcus

          TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

          Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

          Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

          Mr. Jasper More and

          Woodnutt, Mark

          Younger, Hn. George

          Mr. Walter Clegg.

          NOES

          Albu, Austen

          Foley, Maurice

          Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

          Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

          Foot, Michael

          Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E)

          Allen, Scholefield

          Ford, Ben

          Marks, Kenneth

          Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

          Forrester, John

          Marquand, David

          Armstrong, Ernest

          Fraser, John (Norwood)

          Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

          Ashton, Joe

          Freeson, Reginald

          Meacher, Michael

          Atkinson, Norman

          Galpern, Sir Myer

          Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

          Bagier, Gordon A. T.

          Garrett, W. E.

          Mendelson, John

          Barnes, Michael

          Gilbert, Dr. John

          Mikardo, Ian

          Barnett, Joel

          Ginsburg, David

          Millan, Bruce

          Beaney, Alan

          Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

          Miller, Dr. M. S.

          Benn, Rt. Hn, Anthony Wedgwood

          Grant, George (Morpeth)

          Milne, Edward (Blyth)

          Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

          Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

          Molloy, William

          Bidwell, Sydney

          Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

          Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

          Bishop, E. S.

          Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

          Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

          Blenkinsop, Arthur

          Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

          Morris, Charles R. (Openahaw)

          Boardman, H. (Leigh)

          Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

          Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

          Booth, Albert

          Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

          Moyle, Roland

          Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

          Hardy, Peter

          Mulley, Rt. Hn, Frederick

          Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

          Harper, Joseph

          Murray, Ronald King

          Bradley, Tom

          Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

          Ogden, Eric

          Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

          Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

          O'Halloran, Michael

          Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Proven)

          Hattersiey, Roy

          O'Malley, Brian

          Brown,Ronald(Shoreditch&F'bury)

          Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

          Oram, Bert

          Buchan, Norman

          Heffer, Eric S.

          Orbach, Maurice

          Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

          Hilton, W. S.

          Orme, Stanley

          Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

          Horam, John

          Oswald, Thomas

          Callaghan, Rt. Hn, James

          Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

          Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

          Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

          Paget, R. T.

          Cant, R. B.

          Huckfield, Leslie

          Palmer, Arthur

          Carmichael, Neil

          Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

          Parker, John (Dagenham)

          Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

          Hughes, Mark (Durham)

          Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

          Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

          Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

          Pavitt, Laurie

          Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

          Hughes, Roy (Newport)

          Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

          Clark, David (Colne Valley)

          Hunter, Adam

          Pendry, Tom

          Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

          Janner, Greville

          Pentland, Norman

          Cohen, Stanley

          Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

          Perry, Ernest G.

          Coleman, Donald

          Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

          Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg

          Concannon, J. D.

          Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

          Prescott, John

          Conlan, Bernard

          Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

          Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

          Corbet, Mrs. Freda

          John, Brynmor

          Price, William (Rugby)

          Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

          Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

          Probert, Arthur

          Crawshaw, Richard

          Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

          Rankin, John

          Cronin, John

          Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

          Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

          Cunningham, G. (Islington,S.W.)

          Jones, Barry, (Flint, E)

          Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

          Cunningham, Dr. J. (Whitehaven)

          Jones, Dan (Burnley)

          Richard, Ivor

          Dalyell, Tam

          Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

          Robert, Albert (Normanton)

          Darling, Rt. Hn. George

          Kaufman, Gerald

          Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

          Davidson, Arthur

          Kerr, Russell

          Robertson, John (Paisley)

          Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

          Kinnock, Neil

          Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

          Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

          Lambie, David

          Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

          Davies, Ifor (Gower)

          Lamond, James

          Roper, John

          Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

          Latham, Arthur

          Rose, Paul B.

          Deakins, Eric

          Lawson, George

          Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

          de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

          Leadbitter, Ted

          Sheldon, Ribert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

          Delargy, H. J.

          Lee, Rt. Hn, Frederick

          Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

          Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

          Leonard, Dick

          Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

          Dempsey, James

          Lester, Miss Joan

          Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

          Doig, Peter

          Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

          Silkin, Hn, S. C. (Dulwich)

          Dormand, J. D.

          Lewis, Arthur (W, Ham N.)

          Sillars, James

          Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

          Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

          Silverman, Julius

          Douglas-Mann, Bruce

          Lipton, Marcus

          Skinner, Dennis

          Driberg, Tom

          Lomas, Kenneth

          Small, William

          Duffy, A. E. P.

          Loughlin, Charles

          Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

          Dunn, James A.

          Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

          Spearing, Nigel

          Dunnett, Jack

          Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

          Spriggs, Leslie

          Eadie, Alex

          Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

          Stallard, A. W.

          Edelman, Maurice

          McBride, Neil

          Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

          Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

          McCartney, Hugh

          Stoddart, David (Swindon)

          Edwards, William (Merioneth)

          McElhone, Frank

          Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

          Ellis, Tom

          McGuire, Michael

          Strang, Gavin

          English, Michael

          Mackenzie, Gregor

          Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

          Evans, Fred

          Mackie, John

          Swain, Thomas

          Fernyhough, E.

          Mackintosh, John P.

          Taverne, Dick

          Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

          Maclennan, Robert

          Thomas,Rt. Hn.George (Cardiff, W.)

          Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

          McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

          Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

          Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

          McNamara, J. Kevin

          Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

          Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

          MacPherson, Malcolm

          Tinn, James

          1096

          1097

          Torney, Tom

          Weitzman, David

          Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

          Urwin, T. W.

          Wellbeloved, James

          Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

          Varley, Eric C.

          Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

          Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

          Wainwright, Edwin

          White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

          Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

          Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

          Whitehead, Phillip

          Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

          Whitlock, William

          TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

          Wallace, George

          Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

          Mr. John Golding and

          Watkins, David

          Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

          Mr. William Hamling.

          Clause 31 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
          The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again, pursuant to the Order of the House of 25th January.
          Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.
          4.45 a.m.
          Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): I have a report to make to the House. I have to report that the Assistant Serjeant at Arms has inquired into the events which took place earlier this morning and has reported as follows:
          "Report on alleged assault on a door keeper during a division about 2.10 a.m. When the doors leading to the 'Aye' Lobby were locked on order of the Chair, several Members were moving rapidly towards the doors and an accidental collision occurred with the doorkeeper on duty."—[Interruption.]—"No complaint of any improper conduct has been made."
          D. Swanston, Assistant Serjeant at Arms."
          Mr. Arthur Lewis: On a point of order. You will recall, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that a similar incident to the one just reported took place some years ago when a Communist Member of the House, Mr. Phil Piratin, was involved. That incident was within the precincts of the House and a similar report was then referred to the Committee of Privileges. I suggest that in this case also there should be a report to the Committee of Privileges, because the cases are identical, except that the fracas which took place earlier today was actually within the precincts of the Chamber; the other incident occurred at a bar of the House.
          As I understand it, the rule is that one must as soon as possible ask Mr. Speaker for a case to be reported, I give you notice formally that this case may possibly be a prima facie breach of privilege.
          Mr. Deputy Speaker: This, of course, is not the time for me to deal with the
          1098
          matter. It must be raised in the ordinary way if the hon. Gentleman chooses to do that, as other hon. Members are at liberty to do. I think that we should get on now.
          Mr. Loughlin: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Those right hon. and hon. Members present in the Committee at the time will recall that I raised a point of order about this incident. I should now like your guidance. The incident took place when the House was in Committee. As far as I know, the House is not aware of what takes place in Committee. When may a further point of order for a reference to the Committee of Privileges be made? If the House is not aware of what takes place in Committee, do I take it that the matter must be raised on Monday when the House is in Committee again or at any other time?
          Mr. Deputy Speaker: I can answer the hon. Gentleman exactly. He must raise it at 11 o'clock this day, which is the first available opportunity.
          Mr. Arthur Lewis: I know that hon. Members opposite who support thuggery do not want to hear, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but is it not the rule that in any possible or prima facie breach of privilege notice must be given as soon as possible to the House of Commons? The House is now meeting, and I say respectfully that I am now reporting the case to the House. Eleven o'clock this day will not be the first opportunity. I have now given you notice.
          Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): That may be so, but it has to be done at the proper time, and the Standing Orders lay down that it shall be done at eleven o'clock on a Friday, if that is the next available opportunity, or after Questions on the following day. That is the rule of the House.
          Mr. Arthur Lewis: I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I know of a number of cases—I could quote them if I had the reference books—where this has been the moment and the time when the matter has been reported as being the first opportunity. It is true that Mr. Speaker will

          1099
          say that he would like an opportunity to consider whether there is a prima facie case, and whether it should have precedence over the Orders of the Day. But my point is that this is the first opportunity that I have had of raising the issue whilst the House is sitting. The House is sitting at the moment, and it is my duty to report to it, and with respect, it is the duty of Mr. Speaker to decide whether or not he will accept the case and make an announcement. I agree that he may well decide at eleven o'clock whether he will give the matter precedence over the Orders of the Day.
          Mr. Deputy Speaker: I now rule that what the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) has put to me cannot be the case; and that notice must be given to Mr. Speaker at the next available opportunity, which is at the meeting of the House this day. That is my Ruling.
          Mr. Loughlin Mr. Loughlin rose——
          Hon. Members: Sit down.
          Mr. Deputy Speaker: Before the hon. Gentleman speaks again, I had better finish my Ruling so that he can put no further questions on that. My Ruling is that the hon. Member for West Ham, North if he so wishes may raise this question at eleven o'clock today, and should do it at eleven o'clock today, because that is the first available opportunity when it should be done and not actually now. The hon. Gentleman may say that that is not in accordance with procedure, but someone has to lay down what is to happen now. I may be wrong— I do not think I am— but I lay it down now that that is the procedure that should be adopted.
          Now, I would be prepared to hear the point of order which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) wishes to raise, but I must tell him that his point of order must not concern the Ruling I have just given.
          Mr. Loughlin: I will respect your Ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I am entitled as a Member of this House to make a submission to you on the issue of what is the first available opportunity——
          Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am afraid that that is exactly what the hon.
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          Gentleman is not entitled to do, because that is what I have ruled upon. Now, we must get on with our business.
          Mr. Eric Ogden (Liverpool, West Derby): On a new point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker. In the last few moments reference has been made to the servants of the House. After an all-night sitting, which places great strain on police and everyone else who serves us, it might be thought appropriate for us to express our thanks to them for their efforts on our behalf.
          Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
          Mr. Maurice Edelman: On a point of order. In your remarks, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in reporting the observations, and they are no more than observations, of the Assistant Serjeant at Arms, you may have seemed to have prejudged the matter by reporting what the Assistant Serjeant at Arms said irrespective of possible contradictory evidence. I therefore submit to you that there is a danger that by reporting to the House what the Assistant Serjeant at Arms said you may have prejudged the matter, and interfered unwittingly with the Speaker's opportunity to decide whether there is a prima facie case that a breach of privilege has been committed.
          May I ask you, therefore, that when the matter is raised again the Speaker may be fully apprised of the events that have taken place, so that he will not be influenced in any way by this ex-parte report which has been made by the Assistant Serjeant at Arms?
          Mr. Deputy Speaker: There should be no quarrel between the hon. Gentleman and myself. These things will be brought to Mr. Speaker's notice, no doubt be-for we meet today. The matter will be raised and Mr. Speaker will decide what is to be done. I was simply asked by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) earlier, when I was in the lower Chair, if I would get a report from the Serjeant at Arms, and I did so. When I resumed the upper Chair I reported it to the House.
          I have made no Ruling on whether a breach of privilege has been committed. That will be for Mr. Speaker and the matter should be raised as soon as possible today.

        HOSPITAL FACILITIES (WESTON-SUPER-MARE)
        Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.— [Mr. Humphrey Atkins.]
        4.57 a.m.
        Mr. Jerry Wiggin (Weston-super-Mare): I was grateful to Mr. Speaker for using his selection for this subject. Little was I to know that it would be nearly five o'clock in the morning of Friday before we should start to discuss hospital facilities— of which we shall all be in need shortly.
        When I was first selected for the candidacy in the constituency of Weston-super-Mare I was immediately apprised of the substantial concern that was felt by all my constituents over the lack of hospital facilities in our area. During the period of almost two years that I have been a Member I have tried all possible legitimate and private means of pressing the case of this hospital. It is with some reluctance that I find it necessary to have an Adjournment debate. My predecessor, David Webster, was responsible for a great deal of the work done on this matter. I have a massive file that was handed to me of work done by him. Both the Weston-super-Mare Borough Council and the Axbridge Rural District Council, to say nothing of all the doctors and many individuals, particularly Councillor C. Curtis, have pressed this matter to the best of their ability over a period of 12 years or more.
        The last straw came on Monday, 18th June, when the accident unit at our general hospital was closed at six o'clock in the morning owing to lack of staff. It is perhaps fortunate that the G.P.s in our area were able to organise a voluntary rota to keep a skeleton schedule of three hours each morning so that there was some service available for those who required urgent medical attention.
        The statistics of the last four years of what the accident unit has dealt with will show the vast amount of work that is done there and the extreme crisis caused by the lack of facilities. In 1967, 27,834 attendances were recorded; in 1968, 31,257; in 1969, 34,258; in 1970, 36,275. Between 1960 and 1970 there Las been an increase in the work load of 50 per cent. The minimum total
        1102
        attendance in 1970 on any one day was 31 and the maximum 183. The average daily attendances for 1970 were 99, and the average daily attendances in July, August and September were 128. I am sure I do not have to remind the hon. Gentleman of the work that would be entailed in seeing personally 128 constituents on any one day. Every patient who goes through the accident department has to be seen by a doctor.
        The reason for the closure was, quite simply, lack of staff. There are normally four doctors, one in charge of the department and three who work a rota system to keep the unit manned throughout the 24 hours. The department has been short of one doctor for some time, but with the illness of one other doctor it has ceased to be possible to keep the unit open. It is not surprising that many of my constituents are extremely disturbed by the lack of this facility. The morale of our nursing staff, which has suffered for some time through the semi-closure of our nursing school, takes yet another battering.
        I will point out the special disadvantages of taking emergency cases 18 miles or more into Bristol. There is the pain and distress inevitably caused to patients. There is the pressure on the Bristol hospitals, which are already working to high capacity. There are the weather and road conditions to take into account, and it is of not insignificant import that during the week before last traffic delays in the centre of Bristol were up to two hours during the whole day. Most important of all, the ambulance men have been told that if they believe a case to be imminently fatal, they should take that patient to Weston for emergency attention. That is an extremely heavy responsibility to place upon an ambulance man who, after all, has only limited qualifications in this respect.
        There is an urgent need to provide extra staff. This is the only accident unit in the South-West Regional Hospital Board area that has been completely closed, although I understand that Bridgwater is in similar trouble. Advertisements have been placed to fill this staff vacancy. Although the problem is not unknown elsewhere, it should not be beyond the wit of the South-West Regional Hospital Board and the Department of Health and Social Security

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        to find a stand-in while illness keeps the unit shut.
        There are, admittedly, plans to improve the facilities of this overcrowded and ancient part of the General hospital. About £70,000 is due to be spent, starting in April of this year. I ask my hon. Friend to see whether work can be started while the unit is closed. A few months ago I visited all the hospitals in my constituency, and the staff at the General Hospital are seriously concerned about their working conditions, while building work goes on around them. Could not advantage be taken of the unit being shut?
        I turn from this specific subject to the more general one of the total deficiency in hospital facilities and the necessity for a new district general hospital in Weston-super-Mare. I regret to tell the House that the history of this matter reads rather like a comic opera. It would be funny if it were not so vitally important and tragic. As far as I can find out, the need for this new hospital first came to light in 1954. There is a record in 1958 of the borough council having passed a resolution expressing concern over the inadequacy of the facilities in the town. By 1963 they were beginning to talk about the first selection of a site.
        The House will be aware that in January, 1962 the then Minister of Health issued a blue book. This set out that,
        "… to give the hospital service of England and Wales both the physical equipment and also the pattern and setting which will everywhere place the most modern treatment at the service of patients and enable the staffs who care for them to exercise their skills and devotion under the best conditions."
        In the original plan the Minister did not expect work to be started on the new district general hospital at Weston-super-Mare until after 1970–71. But in the promised revision of the plan in 1963 the new hospital was mentioned as coming into the ten-year programme, and, as a result, a project team was set up by the regional hospital board to plan details of the new hospital. In the 1965 revision it was not even mentioned. The project team ceased work. No revision was issued in 1965.
        In 1966 a further revision was published in which it was stated:
        "A new district general hospital will be built at Weston-super-Mare, and this will
        1104
        enable the Royal Hospital to be used for geriatric purposes."
        This revision also stated that
        "among schemes which it is hoped to start in the period up to 1969–1970 would be— Weston-super-Mare— new district general hospital— phase 1 (maternity unit)."
        The project team started work again.
        The then Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health wrote in 1965, addressing the letter to my predecessor:
        "The Board have been in touch with Weston Borough Council about the site for the new hospital and it is hoped to make a firm choice between the two selected as suitable within the next few months. When this is done the land for the new hospital will be reserved and the possibility of early purchase will be carefully considered."
        After more dithering, events proceeded with breath-taking slowness. In February, 1967 the then Parliamentary Secretary wrote:
        "I told you that approval has already been given and work should start in 1969–70)… The Regional Hospital Board has a site in mind for the new hospital and are at present negotiating its purchase with the owner."
        Another year passed, and in November, 1968 the Axbridge Rural District Council passed a resolution:
        "That the Department of Health and Social Security be informed that this Council which has for several years been concerned to see that a new hospital should be provided to serve the needs of the expanding population of the Rural District as well at the Borough of Weston-super-Mare is alarmed by the prospect of further delay and that the Minister be requested to review the needs of the area as a matter of great urgency."
        That was in 1968. In September, 1969 a Press statement was issued:
        "Meetings have taken place between Mr. W. J. English, Chairman of the South Western Regional Hospital Board and Mr. Richard Crossman, Secretary of State for Social Services, as a result of which a site has now been selected at Uphill… The Secretary of State is now proceeding with the necessary arrangements to enable the site to be acquired."
        That was in 1969. In November, 1970 the hospital board was writing to the town clerk explaining why the site was not yet purchased. I am sorry to say that there is still no firm news that the purchase of the Uphill site has been made. I hope the Minister will be able to give me an assurance about the completion of that contract.
        The pressure built up during this period from both the borough council and Axbridge Rural District Council and

        1105
        from the Member of Parliament. Delegations visited Ministers in December, 1964 and November, 1969. Petitions with 13,000 and 14,000 signatures were presented in March, 1965 and November, 1969.
        After the issue of a Press release which was not sent to me until I asked for it in early December of last year or late November, the board announced that the starting date for the hospital had been postponed to 1974–75. It claimed on the credit sited that a single phase development would enable the hospital to be completed earlier than under the original plan. Since, however, the original plan had neither a firm starting date nor a completion date, I can only say that must have been a wild assumption.
        I should like to know whether the project planning team is once again at work. I suggest that perhaps, with the rapid advance of medical science, a shell-type of building, providing necessary services, with moveable internal partitions, might be an adequate way of starting construction in the time.
        The reasons for the urgency are simple. At present we have eight separate units in an area of ten miles around the central hospital. Our present population is 90,000 and several people will say that it is much bigger. On any one summer day 40,000 extra tourists and holiday makers can come into our area. With the exception of Bath, Weston-super-Mare is the largest borough in Somerset. By the end of next year we shall have the M5 motorway running within a few miles, and inevitably this may well lead to urgent accident cases having to be treated at our hospital.
        While it might be said that we can get more quickly to Bristol, it is safe to say that access from the motorway will scarcely be adequate.
        The waiting list in 1970 for our hospital amounted to 1,284 cases; 479 general surgical cases, 265 gynaecological, 388 tonsils and adenoids.
        I wonder whether the Minister could explain to the House in his reply how his Department assesses the requirement of tourists and holiday makers. In the matter of transport the South-West is badly served. I believe that similar criticisms may be levelled on medical
        1106
        grounds. Though a tourist may not be living permanently in Weston-super-Mare, as soon as he moves into the area, even for a short time, he ceases to become the medical responsibility of his home area. There is no doubt in my mind that the South-West in general gets far too small a share of the national cake in terms of medical finance.
        In conclusion, I must praise the way in which our medical staff, doctors and nurses, work in extremely difficult conditions. I should be much happier, as would many of my constituents, if the Minister could give me one or two assurances. Could he say whether the site at Uphill has been purchased and, if not, when completion will take place? Could he give a definite starting date for the new hospital? I should like a firm promise since, through all this unhappy saga, we have never yet been told anything firm. Will he press the South-West Regional Hospital Board over the staffing of the general hospital accident unit? Will he press that hospital board to get on quickly with any improvements at the General Hospital, or at least to direct the funds in such a way that the new hospital can start a little earlier?
        5.15 a.m.
        The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Michael Alison): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin) on his resolution and endurance in sitting through the night until 5.15 a.m. on behalf of his constituents to raise a matter which, I agree, is of the utmost importance. I am sure that the conscientious attention which my hon. Friend has paid to this need in this debate at an extraordinary hour will not go unnoticed in the West country.
        The hospital services in the Weston-super-Mare area are dispersed amongst a number of hospitals. Some of these were opened a century ago. Of course, over the years improvements and additions to the facilities have been made, but these measures have hardly kept pace with the rate of obsolescence and the problem of fragmentation has remained. Moreover, the population has been increasing and is expected to continue to increase. The growing numbers are, of course, considerably enlarged each year by holiday makers and other visitors.

        1107
        Hon. Members will appreciate that in these circumstances the services have been under considerable strain. The strain, however, has been felt in the main by the medical, nursing and other staff, and because of their devotion and skill— I am obliged to my hon. Friend for drawing attention to this— I am sure that few patients would complain about the treatment that they have received.
        Nevertheless, it is clear that the present hospital facilities in Weston fall short of the standard which is desirable, certainly in a modern health service, and this has been recognised by the South-Western Regional Hospital Board in its plans to improve facilities throughout the region. The long-term solution proposed by the board, as my hon. Friend knows, is the provision of a new district general hospital for the Weston area. Before I speak about this, however— and I shall try to cover the points my hon. Friend raised— I should like to say something about the crucial factor of the accident and emergency services.
        I am aware that because of medical staffing difficulties it has recently been found necessary to suspend temporarily the 24-hour, seven-day a week service normally provided by the accident and emergency department at Weston General Hospital. This major department, which had a total of 16,528 new patients and 34,258 attendances in 1969, has an establishment of one medical assistant and one senior house officer— two in all. The medical assistant is now ill and the senior house officer post is vacant.
        The service was suspended on 18th January after consultation between the regional hospital board and the hospital management committee. The position was discussed with other interested bodies and alternative arrangements were immediately made and put into effect whereby patients requiring urgent hospital treatment as a result of an accident or other medical emergency would be taken direct to one or other of the three main hospitals in Bristol— Southmead, Frenchay and the Bristol Royal Hospital. In order to spread the workload it was agreed that each of these three hospitals should provide cover on alternate days. A patient who would normally have attended Weston General Hospital but was referred to one of these
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        three hospitals for urgent initial treatment and who required to be admitted to hospital or was in need of follow-up out-patient treatment subsequently, would be transferred to the Weston General Hospital which would provide the necessary subsequent treatment. Such arrangements necessarily make increased demands on the ambulance service for the transport of patients the 20 or so miles to Bristol, but plans have been made to supplement this service by making use of taxis for patients not in need of full ambulance facilities.
        I am glad to say that a locum replacement for the medical assistant has been obtained and is due to report for duty on 7th February following which the accident and emergency services will be reinstated. In the meantime, the work is being partially covered by a general practitioner. Advertisements have been placed for a senior house officer, but no applications have been received. The problem which has arisen regarding the staffing of the department has been discussed with the local general practitioners who have offered some help at night.
        Difficulties in recruiting medical staff for accident and emergency departments are being experienced by a number of hospital authorities in different parts of the country at the present time. Due to a reduction in the inflow of doctors from overseas, there has been a reduction in the rate of increase in the total number of hospital doctors— provisionally 2 per cent. in the year to 30th September, 1970 compared with over 3 per cent. in previous years, which is quite a significant drop. Accident and emergency services, which are not the most attractive to junior medical staff, have been particularly affected by this decline in the rate of increase in the numbers of doctors.
        There are long-standing problems in the staffing of these departments, which are manned to a great extent by junior staff with comparatively little participation by consultants. My Department advised hospital authorities in a circular issued in 1968 that provision should be made for personal day-to-day supervision of the work of these departments by their consultants. My Department's recent survey of progress has shown that

        1109
        there is still far too little day-to-day participation in these departments by consultants. In consequence the training value of junior posts is not as good as it should be, nor are young doctors able to see prospects for a career in this type of work.
        There are real problems in this which cannot be solved overnight, but I know that representative bodies in the medical profession itself have recently given a great deal of thought to the future of these departments, and I hope that we shall be able to work out with the profession measures which will deal with the underlying long-term problems. This can be worked out only by good will on both sides in this sort of discussion with the profession.
        Because the benefits of the major redevelopment project will not be available for some years, there may be an impression that hospitals in the Weston Group are not being improved and kept up to date in the mean while. This is not so. In the next financial year, 1971–72, there is a considerable programme of proposed building works and its total estimated expenditure would amount to the considerable sum of, in round figures, £250,000 in Weston. The details may interest my hon. Friend. First, there is a scheme, of which he may be aware, to improve and extend the existing casualty department in the Weston General Hospital. My hon. Friend asked, incidentally, whether money should not rather have been spent now on that scheme to improve the existing accident and emergency department— brought forward, as it were— but on the whole we feel that it would have been wrong not to have concentrated all possible attention and energy on reinstating the existing accident and emergency service, the closure of which was due to freak conditions of staffing.
        Second, we hope to provide an extra radiodiagnostic room and improve the X-ray Department; and to set up a Central Sterile Supply Department to serve hospitals in Weston. This alone is estimated to cosi £85,000, of which £73,000 would be for building and engineering work, and £12,000 for equipment. This is expected to start on site in June or earlier. Third, there is a scheme to adapt existing accommodation in the General Hos-
        1110
        pital to provide eight emergency admission beds and six high-dependency beds. This would cost altogether about £99,000 of which £85,000 would be building, and £14,000 equipment. Fourth, refrigeration would be provided for the operating theatre suite at a cost of £8,000. Fifth, records accommodation would be set up at a cost of about £5,000.
        Turning from the Weston General Hospital to the Royal Hospital, the fifth proposed project would give 16 additional geriatric beds, plus associated accommodation at a cost of £65,000-odd, of which £50,000 would be building, and £15,000 equipment. Finally, in Eastern Hose, an estimated expenditure of about £14,000 would provide 21 beds for convalescent patients on the second floor which would free 17 beds on the first floor for post-operative and preconvalescent patients. The board plans to spend in aggregate £276,000 on these schemes starting, we hope, in this financial year, 1971–72. This is substantial capital renewal, albeit that it is renovation and adaptation rather than new building.
        I will turn now to the proposal for a new district general hospital. The proposal was published in the Hospital Plan of 1962, which did not expect the scheme to start until after 1970. Since 1962, as circumstances have changed, various alternative dates for a start on the building work have been adopted for planning purposes. Hon. Members will understand the difficulties confronting regional hospital boards in formulating and keeping up to date their capital building programmes, especially when they are forecast a long way ahead, and especially as regards starting dates. Needs and priorities within the region must be assessed, costs must be estimated, and a programme of building drawn up which is realistically matched to the resources which are likely to be available.
        In addition to the general problems inherent in a capital programme, the board has to grapple with particular problems related to the project— in this case, notably, the problem of the selection of a suitable site. This is not the occasion to deal in detail with the history of the Weston project to date, but a word or two on the problem of choosing the site would, I think, be helpful. I do not need to remind my hon. Friend that much of

        1111
        the Weston area is low lying and of poor load-bearing capacity. These conditions are far from ideal for hospital building. They tend to increase the costs of development.
        It was therefore necessary to undertake a careful examination of a number of sites and the likely costs of their development before it could be decided which site was the most suitable. I believe that the delay over the site caused a great deal of anxiety locally, and that in November, 1969 my hon. Friend led a deputation to the then Minister of State in the Department of Health and presented a petition containing some 14,000 signatures, so he has been pressing this for a long time, as we appreciate. The deputation was, of course, concerned that work on the new hospital should be started as soon as possible. It was not then possible to announce a starting date, but I believe that my hon. Friend was assured that the project was the board's top
        1112
        priority for hospital building, in Somerset and I am glad to confirm that it remains the top priority.
        If I may go to the immediate question that my hon. Friend asked, discussions on initial plans have already taken place at officer level between the board and my Department. The endeavour now will be to see that detailed planning proceeds as swiftly as is possible, consistent with good planning. The latest information entitles me to report some progress this morning. Agreement between the board and the vendor about the purchase of the site has recently been reached——
        The Question having been proposed after Twelve o'clock on Thursday evening and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
        Adjourned at Twenty-seven minutes past Five o'clock a.m.