Commons Sitting of 24 February 1971

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    Unemployment
    Mr. Sillarsasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent representations he has received from the Scottish Trades Union Congress following the publication of the January unemployment figures; and what replies he has sent.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Gordon Campbell): None, Sir. But, as the hon. Member will be aware, the Scottish Trades Union Congress earlier this week had a meeting with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at which I was present.
    Mr. Sillars: At that meeting, did the Secretary of State confess to the Scottish Trades Union Congress delegation that his designation of a large part of Scotland as a special development area amounts to a clear admission that his own investment allowances system is a failure?
    Mr. Campbell: No. Sir. This S.D.A. designation happened to be a recommendation put to the Government by the S.T.U.C. itself earlier. At the meeting at No. 10 on Monday, there was a full discussion, and I had the impression that the S.T.U.C. considered it extremely useful.
    Mr. MacArthur: Did my right hon. Friend point out to the delegation that the industrial future of Scotland depends on the defeat of cost inflation and, thereafter, on the resumption of growth in the total United Kingdom economy?
    Mr. Campbell: It would be right to say that there was general agreement on that.
    Mr. Ross: Bearing in mind the gravity of the unemployment figures in Scotland, and whatever the merit of the S.D.A. proposals, since they can have little or no effect this year and very little next year, if the Prime Minister's figures given yesterday are correct, has the Secretary of State any plans for immediate action to alleviate the situation during the coming months
    Mr. Campbell: In July, when I first met the S.T.U.C., we were aware that unemployment was standing at over 90,000 then, at the height of the summer. I have seen the S.T.U.C. since then, and we have kept in touch about the matter. The S.D.A. was the quickest method to be brought in because, contrary to what the right hon. Gentleman said, but in accordance with what I said on 3rd February, legislation was not required and it could be designated straight away. [HON. MEMBERS: "The right hon. Gentleman did not know."] I replied at the time —this was in my first speech—but hon. Members did not take it in, that I had been advised that legislation was not necessary to designate it. The point is that legislation is still necessary to raise the grants to the amounts which have already been announced.
    Mr. Ross: Will the Secretary of State now answer my question?
    Mr. Campbell: I have already stated that the S.D.A. system was a method which was to hand and was the quickest to introduce in order to deal with the situation. The right hon. Gentleman knows that already, in order immediately and urgently to relieve as much as we can of the unemployment which we found on coming into office, we have introduced, for Scotland only, the winter works programme,

    Rural Areas
    Mr. Sillarsasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make an official tour of the rural areas of Scotland.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: As my home and constituency are in the North of Scotland, I frequently travel by different routes through much of rural Scotland.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Keep travelling.
    Mr. Campbell: I do. I shall continue also to make visits to particular areas as part of my programme.
    Mr. Sillars: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the staggering number of withdrawal notices on rural bus services in Scotland at present? Am I to take it from Written Answers which I have received in the last week or two that, instead of doing anything to save these services in the meantime, the Secretary of State has chosen to shelter behind two pilot studies, in Devon and West Suffolk, set up by an English Minister?
    Mr. Campbell: No, Sir; I am not sheltering behind anything. This serious matter is receiving the Government's urgent attention. I travel by bus a lot in the North of Scotland, apart from using other forms of travel, and I am aware of the usefulness of the rural bus services.

    Hunterston (Harbour Development)
    Mr. Lambieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations have taken place between his Department, the Clyde Port Authority and other interested parties about the construction of ocean terminals at Hunterston.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Development, Scottish Office (Mr. George Younger): My right hon. Friend's officials keep in close touch with the Clyde Port Authority and other bodies concerned with port development on the Clyde.
    Mr. Lambie: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that it is his job to see that a lead is given to the Clyde Port Authority and the British Steel Corporation, and that there is a tremendous feeling in Scotland that if this great national asset of deep water in the Clyde had been an English channel we should have had a decision years ago?
    Mr. Younger: This is a matter between the Clyde Port Authority and the British Steel Corporation. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that negotiations are going on between those two bodies as to how they can forward this project. I think that a decision is not very far off.
    Dr. Dickson Mahon: Is it true that there may be another inquiry at Hunters-
    542
    ton? If so, may we be assured that it will not be of the same marathon length as the last inquiry at Hunterston? Are the Government being consulted about the projected agreement between the British Steel Corporation and the Clyde Port Authority on the construction of an ore terminal port?
    Mr. Younger: I certainly hope that any new inquiry would not be as long as the first. My right hon. Friend has just circulated the additional evidence on the demand for home refining capacity and so on, which he promised to do. It is too early to say whether there will be objections that will need a further inquiry. If there were to be such an inquiry it would probably take place some time in May. This is a matter between the British Steel Corporation and the Clyde Port Authority, and the Secretary of State's interest, apart from his general economic interest in Scottish affairs, is a planning interest, and he will be ready to step in as soon as he is needed.
    Mr. Lawson: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is about three months since his right hon. Friend gave the all-clear for this to proceed? What has his Department been doing and what is it doing, to get rid of the difficulties which seem to have cropped up? What precisely are those difficulties?
    Mr. Younger: It is not a question of difficulties. Negotiations are going on in the perfectly normal way between the two bodies concerned. I can at least assure the hon. Gentleman that no time is being lost and that technical investigations and site borings are proceeding to ensure that no further time will be lost when the decision is reached.

    Housing (Glasgow)
    Mr. William Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many approvals were granted in respect of houses to be built by Glasgow local authority in each of the years 1968 to 1970.
    Mr. Smallasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is now the final figure for houses completed in 1970 in the city of Glasgow.
    Mr. Hugh D. Brownasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was

    543
    the total number of housing starts, by all sources, in Glasgow in the years 1968, 1969 and 1970.
    Mr. Younger: With permission, I will answer Questions Nos. 4, 19 and 22 together and circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Hannan: That reply is an abuse of the procedure of Question Time. But sometimes we happen to know the answers before we ask the Questions, so may I ask the hon. Gentleman this: in view of the declining number of approvals, does he agree that the declining number of approvals automatically means a decline in the number of houses constructed? Do not the figures show a wanton, criminal neglect of its statutory duty by the strife-torn, right-wing alliance in Glasgow? What action does the hon. Gentleman propose to take to encourage it, or better still, to abandon it to its inevitable defeat at the forthcoming elections?
    Mr. Younger: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is putting Questions to which he already knows the answers. I agree with him, of course, that if approvals decline, as they have in Scotland as a whole over the past three years, completions will naturally be likely to decline also. But I cannot agree that the trend in Glasgow is one to be regretted. The Corporation is to be greatly congratulated on at least having looked at the planning standards of housing for the people of Glasgow so that they can have better homes.
    Mr. Small: I received nearly a cultural shock from that answer, because my question relates to the City of Glasgow and I think that it will be crystal clear—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must not use an opportunity to ask a supplementary question to transmit his cultural shocks to me. He must ask a question.
    Mr. Small: Does the figure in Glasgow show so alarming a drop that the Minister is afraid to give us the figures today?
    Mr. Younger: Not at all. Cultural shocks are a matter for my hon. Friend the Minister for Sport, who deals with these things. As to the figures, it is not the question of completions in the past
    544
    years that is relevant. In the past 12 months Glasgow Corporation has rehoused more people in the city than ever before in its history.
    Dr. Miller: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. All that the hon. Gentleman was asked for was four small sets of figures, which he could easily have told us. Is it a new departure that when it becomes a bit difficult for the Government, they hide behind the cloak of putting figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT? As backbenchers we should like your guidance on the matter.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. First, I deprecate points of order during Question time because they shorten the time available. Second, I have no responsibility for the nature of the Minister's answer. That is his responsibility, not mine.
    Mr. Brown: Will the Minister stop hiding behind the figure of house letting which he has quoted? This is the second time that he has quoted it, and it shows an abysmal ignorance of the true facts of Glasgow's housing problem if he thinks that that is a substitute for new houses.
    Mr. Younger: The point made by the hon. Member for Kelvingrove (Dr. Miller) is without substance, because it was not merely four figures for which I was asked but a veritable table, and it would be an abuse of the time of the House to read it out. The point about the housing programme in Glasgow is that the people of Glasgow are no longer prepared to tolerate any house at any price built anywhere. They want a higher-standard housing, and that is what they will get.
    Mr. Ross: The Minister got us into this difficulty because he decided with permission—and I do not remember giving permission—to answer three Questions together. The answer to the first should consist of three figures. Will he give us them? The answer to the second, Question No. 19, consists of one figure. Will he give us that?
    Mr. Younger: I was asking the permission not of the right hon. Gentleman but of the House, which is not the same thing. Second, there is a whole table of figures in the reply. The right hon. Gentleman can have any of them that he wants at any time, but it is a question

    545
    of the approval of the House, which was given.
    Mr. Hannan: On a point of order. In view of the most unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Following is the information:

    Glasgow Corporation only:

    All agencies:

    Approved

    Started

    Completed

    1968

    …

    1,428

    3,496

    4,651

    1969

    …

    4,199

    1,551

    4,787

    1970

    …

    2,632

    3,272

    3,051

    House Purchase
    Mr. Grayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will implement Recommendation No. 5 contained in the Report on the Construction Industry in Scotland, prepared by the Scottish Council, Development and Industry, with regard to the purchase of new houses in Scotland.
    Mr. Younger: My right hon. Friend is bearing it in mind in considering possible ways of encouraging owner-occupation.
    Mr. Gray: I am very glad to hear that my right hon. Friend is considering that, because the difference between the mortgage limit and the purchase price of a house is too great a burden for many people, particularly as they also have to face expenditure on furnishing. Will my right hon. Friend consider the matter very urgently?
    Mr. Younger: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he said. It is because of the considerations he outlined, among others, that we are considering in our present review of housing finance all the possible ways of helping people who wish to go in for home ownership.

    Scottish Inshore Fishing Industry
    Mr. Grayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what further steps he is taking to protect the Scottish Inshore Fishing Industry in Common Market negotiations.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Home Affairs and Agriculture, Scottish Office (Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith): As the House has been informed, Her Majesty's Government have reserved our position on fisheries and made representations about the fisheries policy adopted by the Six.
    Mr. Gray: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer. Will he also bear in mind that many of the recommendations of the Cameron Report are almost as bad for inshore fishermen as the prospect of joining the Common Market? Will he give an assurance that before any legislation is introduced he will seriously consider the industry's views on the fishing limits?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I am conscious of the concern felt about some of the proposals in the Cameron Report. My right hon. Friend and I are in the process of consulting the interests involved. I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall not come to any conclusions until those consultations are completed.
    Mr. Grimond: Will the Minister go a little further on the Cameron Report? While I do not ask him now to repudiate the whole Report, will he make it quite clear that the Government are not bound by the recommendations about the limits, otherwise these may have a serious effect upon our negotiations? Will he see that it is made clear in Brussels that the throwing open of the Scottish fishing waters to indiscriminate fishing of all kinds would not only be disastrous for the Scottish industry but would be extremely harmful to the whole European industry?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: Of course, the Government are not prejudging the Cameron Committee proposals. It would make a mockery of the consultations if we did not study them before coming to a conclusion. The right hon. Gentleman can rest assured that, in the Brussels negotiations, we shall do everything possible to ensure that the interests of the Scottish inshore fishing industry are properly represented.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: In the unlikely event of the United Kingdom joining the E.E.C., are the Government undertaking any studies to see whether there are any alternative ways of providing employment for the large numbers of fishing communities up and down our coastline which depend on fishing and nothing else?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I am much more concerned at the moment to ensure that we conduct the negotiations properly, and that is precisely what we are doing.
    Mr. Donald Stewart: Will the Government follow the example of the Norwegian Government and oppose the entry of Scotland into the E.E.C. unless and until the E.E.C. abandons its fisheries policy?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: What the Norwegian Government do is a matter for the Norwegians. We shall negotiate in the way which we believe is in the best interests of our inshore fishermen and in the interests of the United Kingdom as a whole.
    Mr. Maclennan: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that both the Cameron Report and the Community policy on free access raise two problems—the one on conservation and the other on the regional impact? Is he aware that this is a peculiarly Scottish difficulty? What steps are the Government taking to ensure that the Scottish problems are being properly represented at Brussels?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: As I have said on many occasions, we are fully aware of the problems which arise from both those issues. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not so naïve as to think that, in important negotiations like this, the United Kingdom should declare its position in advance.

    Home Helps
    Mr. McElhoneasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what assistance he is prepared to give to local authorities to enable them to recruit more home helps to look after chronically sick and disabled people under the 1970 Act.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Education, Scottish Office (Mr. Edward Taylor): This Act does not affect the provision of home helps in Scotland. My right hon. Friend has decided to bring into operation on 1st April Section 14 of the Social Work (Scotland) Act, 1968, which places a duty on local authorities to provide home help for those who need it, including the disabled. Provision has been made for the development of this service in the Rate Support Grant Order for 1971.
    Mr. McElhone: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is growing concern among Scottish local authorities about the shortage of financial assistance from the Government to provide more home helps? Is he further aware that, under the Social Work (Scotland) Act, he is obliged to provide more home helps for people who are in need?
    Mr. Taylor: The hon. Gentleman will, no doubt, have noted from the report on the Rate Support Grant Order that the local authorities' current expenditure on social work services is expected to rise from £21 million in 1969–70 to over £26 million in 1972–73. This increase of 25 per cent. will enable the authorities, among other things, to expand the home help service.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the requirements of Sections 1 and 2 of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, 1970, are being or will be met in respect of the severely disabled in Scotland? With regard to Section 1 of the Act, does he agree that there will be little point in finding out the number of severely disabled persons unless we know who they are and where they live?
    Mr. Taylor: The situation in Scotland is rather different from that of England. The Sections of the Act to which the hon. Gentleman has referred do not apply to Scotland. We have our own Social Work Act, which covers similar circumstances.

    Passenger Transport Authority, Glasgow
    Mr. McElhoneasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state his present intentions with regard to a passenger transport authority in the Greater Glasgow area.
    Mr. Younger: It remains my right hon. Friend's intention to discuss this issue with the local authorities concerned when he has completed his examination of all the factors involved.
    Mr. McElhone: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that, if Glasgow's overspill programme and the special development area programme are to be successful, it is essential to improve the transport situation in the Greater Glasgow area?
    Mr. Younger: I agree with the hon. Gentleman's general point, but he will appreciate that, following the publication of the Greater Glasgow Transportation Study, there was a need for some follow-up studies to be done. These are coming to hand now. In addition, this matter cannot but be bound up with the decisions announced recently in the White Paper on the Reform of Local Government.
    Mr. Carmichael: The hon. Gentleman says that the Government had to ask for follow-up studies. Has he made any assessment of the Greater Glasgow Transportation Study in a more general form? Will he impress upon the Secretary of State for the Environment the importance to the Clyde Valley area of the "blue train" commuter service and the importance of Section 39 of the Transport Act being continued at least until there is a complete reorganisation of local government in Scotland and a passenger transport authority is set up?
    Mr. Younger: I agree that the Greater Glasgow Transportation Study is a valuable and useful document. That is why the follow-up studies were necessary before reaching final conclusions. I agree about the importance of the "blue train" service.

    Double Glazing
    Mrs. Hartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what guidance he has given to local authorities, new town development corporations and the Scottish Special Housing Association, about the need for double-glazing, to prevent heat-loss in houses intended for the occupation of old people.
    Mr. Younger: Advice on the design of houses for old people, including heating, was given in Bulletin No. 3 of the new Scottish Housing Handbook, copies of which were sent last July to local authorities, new town corporations, and the Scottish Special Housing Association.
    Mrs. Hart: The hon. Gentleman has not said to what extent that included advice specifically to the new town corporations on double-glazing in houses for old people. Is he aware of the increasing importance attached to double-glazing in the prevention of hypothermia
    550
    among old people? Is he aware that, in East Kilbride, we have the rather odd situation in which the new town corporation is not providing double-glazing, even in houses for old people, whereas the town council provides it in its own houses?
    Mr. Younger: I appreciate the right hon. Lady's interest and agree with her about the value of double-glazing. I think that the more valuable thing to do, however, is to insist on appropriate minimum heating standards and not necessarily to specify double-glazing as against other forms of heat insulation. But I take the point. We will seek to see that all local authorities, including the new town corporations, maintain the minimum adequate heating standards.
    Mr. David Steels: Declaring a possible financial interest, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he accepts that there is a strong case not only for double-glazing in the construction of new houses for old people but for the conversion of existing old people's houses to double-glazing?
    Mr. Younger: I appreciate that, but the important point is to get minimum heating standards accepted, and double-glazing may or may not be the best way to achieve that in different circumstances.
    Mr. Dempsey: Before the construction of such houses, will the hon. Gentleman ensure that the plans are sent to the fire prevention authorities so that every, step that can be taken will be taken to avoid fires, in view of the tragic number of fatalities which are occurring because of fires in council housing?
    Mr. Younger: We are very concerned with the views of the fire authorities and will do all that we can to see that the fire regulations are observed in the planning and construction of new houses.

    New Town Development, Stonehouse
    Mrs. Hartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to reach a decision about the proposed new town development at Stonehouse.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: Shortly.
    Mrs. Hart: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all that we have been told so far is that there will be a lot of extra houses at Stonehouse but that we have been given no numbers and still do not know whether he has specifically put it to the East Kilbride Development Corporation that it should be the agency to build houses? Is he aware that, in these circumstances, his reply is totally unsatisfactory and that it is too much that all this procrastination should take place because, apparently, he cannot make up his mind about the fundamental issues involved?
    Mr. Campbell: I am sorry to think that the right hon. Lady should appear to be opposed to a proposal of this kind. It is under consideration, as I announced on 3rd February. I am aware that the last Government made an announcement in January, 1969, which has led to the development plan being amended. My estimate of the scheme which we now envisage is that it will be about five times larger.

    Housing Capital Debt
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish in the Official Report the housing capital debt per head of the population of the joint burgh of Motherwell and Wishaw and of each of the 10 largest local authorities in Scotland, respectively.
    Mr. Younger: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Lawson: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that these very large debts have been built up by the local authorities in following the housing programmes of successive Governments? Will he give an assurance that the Government have no intention of welshing upon their debt obligations, which they themselves have undertaken to meet?
    Mr. Younger: I am not quite certain to which aspect of the housing finance system the hon. Gentleman is referring. The question of the housing debts incurred by the present local authorities is something that we shall take into account—and, indeed, we are doing so—in our current consultations with the local authority associations.
    Following is the information:

    NET CAPITAL DEBT PER HEAD ON THE HOUSING REVENUE ACCOUNT

    £

    Motherwell and Wishaw

    …

    460

    Glasgow

    …

    …

    …

    246

    Edinburgh

    …

    …

    …

    187

    Lanark County

    …

    …

    254

    Dundee

    …

    …

    …

    332

    Aberdeen City

    …

    …

    …

    238

    Ayr County

    …

    …

    …

    204

    Fife County

    …

    …

    …

    175

    Renfrew County

    …

    …

    84

    Paisley

    …

    …

    …

    …

    282

    Aberdeen County

    …

    …

    140

    NOTES:

    1. Debt figures from returns for 1969–70.

    2. Population figures as at June, 1969.

    Housing
    Mr. Mackintoshasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what has been the number of housing starts in Scotland in the past six months; how these compare with the equivalent six months of the previous year; and what are his explanations for the changes that are revealed by these figures.
    Earl of Dalkeithasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how the number of houses started in the last six months compares with the number for the similar period a year ago; and what are the reasons for the difference.
    Mr. Cordon Campbell: 18,470 houses were started in the last six months of 1970, and 19,649 in the last six months of 1969. The change reflects the response of local authorities to their housing needs.
    Mr. Mackintosh: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that this decline in housing starts is a very serious matter—very serious indeed in view of the sick housing situation in Scotland? Does he accept that this decline is to go further in the next year? What proposals has he to increase the number of housing starts now?
    Mr. Campbell: The decline is not as regular as the hon. Gentleman suggests. For example, there were more starts in the second half of 1970 than there were in the first half. The general decline started in 1968, because between 1968 and 1969 there were nearly 5,000 fewer starts, and there were 3,000 fewer between 1969 and 1970.
    Earl of Dalkeith: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the scrapping of S.E.T. on the building industry, a tax imposed by the previous Government, will give the building industry in Scotland a much-needed boost of £19 million and enable the industry to take up much of the slack of the present unemployment in the industry, which totals 26,000 at present, to whom we are paying unemployment benefit to the tune of the equivalent of 50 new houses per week?
    Mr. Campbell: I am aware that S.E.T. has been a burden upon the building industry. My aim is to encourage public authorities and the private builders to meet the outstanding need wherever it exists and as quickly as possible and by all the means available, including improvement and slum clearance.
    Mr. Ross: Does the reduction in the number of houses started, completed and authorised by Glasgow in the last two years reflect an improvement in its need?
    Mr. Campbell: That is a question about Glasgow, and there are other Questions down about that.
    Mr. Gourlayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state the number of houses completed and the number of houses approved in Burntisland for the year ended 31st December, 1970.
    Mr. Younger: Twenty-one local authority houses and three private houses were completed. No proposals for council house building were approved.
    Mr. Gourlay: Is the Minister aware that at present there are 195 people on the waiting lists of Burntisland and that there are only 16 houses under construction? Is he prepared to condemn nearly 180 families in Burntisland to a homeless future? What steps does he propose to take to prevent that?
    Mr. Younger: In the first place this is primarily a matter for the town council of Burntisland to decide. That council has not submitted to me during the past year any proposals for housebuilding but is in no way being held up by the Government, and I very much hope that it will be looking at its future needs. I have been doing need surveys in respect of all local authorities. I am still awaiting detailed estimates from Burntisland
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    of the number of houses which fall below the tolerable standard.

    Regional Employment Premium
    Mr. Mackintoshasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what calculations the Scottish Development Department has made of the total estimated loss to Scotland of the Government's decision to phase-out the regional employment premium; and whether he has received representations from Scottish industry on this matter.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: The Government announced last October that the regional employment premium was to be paid in full until September, 1974. The total amount of regional employment premium payments in Scotland, on the latest figures available, for the financial year 1969–70 was £41·3 million.
    Mr. Mackintosh: In view of this prospective loss of £40 million to industrial development, and with the statement in the Government's White Paper that the amount of money to be spent on industry and employment over the country is to decline by 7·1 per cent. per annum, how can the right hon. Gentleman go on saying that the amount of money to be spent on regional economic development in Scotland is not being diminished by the present Government?
    Mr. Campbell: The statement confirmed that R.E.P. would be paid for four years from last October to the end of the seven-year period for which it was introduced by the last Government. This gives a considerable period ahead, removes uncertainty, and provides time to consider the economic situation in 1973–74 and what combination of measures will then be appropriate.
    Mr. Mackintosh: I wish that the right hon. Gentleman would answer the question he is asked.
    Mr. MacArthur: Will my right hon. Friend accept that the imposition of selective employment tax in Scotland has had a much wider significance than the regional employment premium? Will he accept that the removal of this tax would effect a much-needed boost to the whole Scottish economy?
    Mr. Campbell: I agree with my hon. Friend that S.E.T. has been harsh in

    555
    areas of Scotland. Of course, a number of things will happen during the four years R.E.P. continues to be paid. These are bound to alter the situation, and that will give us opportunities for considering other measures.
    Mr. Ross: Can the Secretary of State tell us exactly what Scotland's share is to be of the additional expenditure on the S.D.A.? The Prime Minister told us that this year nothing is to be spent; the following year it is to be about £2 million, rising to a maximum in 1974–75 of £10 million. That is for England and Wales and Scotland. What is Scotland's share of that £10 million?
    Mr. Campbell: The right hon. Gentleman ought to know, because he was involved in this, that the results will depend on how successful we are with the economy as a whole and, therefore, to what extent incentives will be taken up. If we can get nearly 40,000 new jobs a year in Scotland, as we did between 1960 and 1964, those incentives will be taken up to a greater extent.

    Housing Finance
    Mr. Douglasasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish estimates of the percentage of housing subsidies which will be applied to the private and public sector of housing in Scotland following his discussions with local authority associations on housing finance.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: I have already announced our policies and stated that discussions with local authority representatives are proceeding. I shall be able to provide more information after these discussions have been completed.
    Mr. Douglas: Would the Secretary of State admit that the total expenditure envisaged in the White Paper on Public Expenditure to 1974–75 indicates a falling off in capital expenditure on housing in Scotland, and will he admit, therefore, that the direct result of Government policy, no matter how much he tries to cook the books, is less local authority and public sector housing in Scotland?
    Mr. Campbell: No, because if the hon. Gentleman looks at his hon. Friend's Question No. 18 he will see that there is to be an increase, at constant prices—
    Mr. Ross: Oh, come on.
    Mr. Campbell: —and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the working party is examining proposals at the moment and it hopes to report next month to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Development.
    Mr. John Smith: Would the right hon. Gentleman comment on suggestions which are rife in Scotland that it is the policy of the Government by 1976–77 to eliminate all rate contributions to council rents and all Exchequer subsidies? Will he deny that this is the policy of his Government?
    Mr. Campbell: There has been no statement about reducing Exchequer subsidy. Countless times in this House I have stated that the intention is to retain the amount, at constant prices, but to redirect it to where it can do the most good. As regards rates, I have also pointed out that it is definitely our intention to remove the burden now on Scottish ratepayers, who are contributing 35 per cent.—no less—of the costs of council housing.
    Mr. Eadieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many meetings he has had with local government associations regarding future housing finance; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: I have nothing to add to the reply I gave the hon. Member on 13th January.—[Vol. 809, c. 36.]
    Mr. Eadie: But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has managed to breed a great deal of uncertainty about the future of new homes in Scotland? Is he aware, further, that the only certainty he seems to have bred is that there will be increased rents in the future?
    Mr. Campbell: We have stated that we intend to bring in rent rebate schemes which, for the first time, will cover the whole public sector and will also extend into the private sector. With proper rent rebate schemes and the advice of the Brownlie Committee, which has just reported upon them, it will be possible to finance housing properly in Scotland and to reduce the unbearable burden on Scottish ratepayers.
    Mr. Clark Hutchison: If we are unwise enough to sign the Treaty of Rome there will be, as my right hon. Friend knows, free movement of labour. Can he tell me what effect that would have on housing finance in Scotland and the number of houses?
    Mr. Campbell: My hon. Friend has raised a very much wider question. I can assure him that I shall look to him for advice about these matters when—if they do—they have some bearing on our housing problems.
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland why public expenditure on housing will increase from £225·2 million in 1969–70 to an estimate of £230 million in 1974–75; and what is the anticipated average rent increase per year for public authority housing on which these estimates have been made.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: Estimates of public expenditure on housing in 1970–71 and 1974–75 are given in the White Paper on Public Expenditure published last month. The composition of this expenditure from 1972–73 onwards will depend on the outcome of the discussions which I am having with the local authority associations on the reform of housing finance.
    Mr. Hamilton: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether this expenditure will result in more houses? This is what we want. Will he further say whether the Government's aim is to increase rents by not less than 10s. a week each year up to 1974–75, as was said in a circular in his Department a few months ago? Will he be honest with the people of Scotland and tell them that it is the Government's intention to increase rents substantially and regularly up to 1974–75?
    Mr. Campbell: On the first point, it is our intention to provide more homes in the places where they are needed. On the second point, I have made it clear that rents will be raised by reasonable steps each year. The amounts await the result of the discussions which we are having with the local authority associations.
    Mr. Mackintosh: The right hon. Gentleman was unable to answer my earlier supplementary question whether he expects house building to increase and
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    what ideas he has for increasing it. He has now said that he will build more homes in places where they are needed. What proposals has he to increase or to alter the present downward trend in housing starts?
    Mr. Campbell: The hon. Gentleman has misquoted me. I said that the intention was to "provide more homes", the point being to provide homes by repairing and retaining those that are falling into decay and to improve housing which would otherwise fall below the tolerable standards, in accordance with the Act passed by the last Government, and also by building new houses. I must emphasise that to take the view that the provision of homes depends entirely on new house building and not on other methods is to over-simplify in a misleading way the problem before the Government.
    Dr. Dickson Mabon: Is the Secretary of State aware that we on this side of the House do not accept, and nor should he, the proposition that house improvements mean less new house building? The two methods are not mutually exclusive, as we demonstrated. Does not the Secretary of State agree, from his own figures, despite the Artful Dodger's earlier answers which avoided the questions, that the house-building programme is falling? It is clear from this Question and this answer that the house-building programme is steadily falling to less than 30,000 a year.
    Mr. Campbell: It is for the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) to explain on his side why the starts between 1968 and 1969 fell by nearly 5,000—that is when the house-building programme started to fall—and by 3,000 in the following year. He should accept that, besides maintaining a house-building programme, particularly by encouraging the private sector which can add so much to the public sector, the provision of extra homes in the places where they are needed is now the requirement for any Government of Scotland.
    Mr. Ross: Is the Secretary of State aware that during the last four years there have been record completions of houses both in the public sector and in the private sector? What we want to know from the right hon. Gentleman is what are his targets—or is he afraid to state them?
    Mr. Campbell: No, I have made it perfectly clear that I have no intention of setting targets. For the right hon. Gentleman to talk about targets, having missed his own last year by over 5,000, is incredible.

    School Building (Midlothian)
    Mr. Eadieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent communications he has had with Midlothian County Council regarding their future school building programme.
    Mr. Edward Taylor: Midlothian Education Authority has asked for a meeting to discuss primary school building in its area. I shall be seeing representatives of the authority for this purpose on 8th March.

    Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, 1970
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he intends to insist that local authorities implement the provisions of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, 1970; and what financial provision has been made for this purpose in the White Paper on Public Expenditure 1969–70 to 1974–75, Command Paper No. 4578.
    Mr. McCartneyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent instructions he has given to local authorities with regard to the implementation of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, 1970.
    Mr. Edward Taylor: The Act does not give my right hon. Friend the power to instruct local authorities how its provisions should be implemented. He has, however, sent out several circulars to bring the requirements of the Act to the notice of local authorities, and offered guidance on them. He is also arranging to obtain from the authorities the information which they are required to supply under the provisions of the Act.
    No specific additional provision needs to be made for local authorities' expenditure in implementing the Act, but I can give an assurance that, in approving building proposals, my right hon. Friend will take full account of expenditure required to meet the needs of the disabled.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does not the hon. Gentleman recognise that when the Act was passed the previous Government in their Money Resolution undertook to underwrite all the financial burdens laid on the local authorities? Do the present Government stand by that undertaking, and will they engage in a publicity campaign on television and radio to make the estimated 250,000 seriously disabled people in Scotland aware of the provisions of the Act, about which the local authorities are doing very little?
    Mr. Taylor: The Government take the Act very seriously. In fairness, some of the provisions have been in force for less than three months. The fact that local authority expenditure on social services over the period concerned, as I have said previouly today, will increase by about 25 per cent., shows that local authorities have the money to expand their social services in this and other ways.
    Mr. Murray: The Minister has rightly pointed out that Sections 1 and 2 of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, 190 do not apply to Scotland. He will know that Section 1 lays upon local authorities the duty to have a register of disabled persons. Will he instruct Scottish local authorities to keep such a register?
    Mr. Taylor: The Social Work (Scotland) Act covers many of the provisions dealt with in these Sections. It is my intention that the services which we shall provide in Scotland will be no worse than in England.

    Employment Prospects
    Mr. Smallasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had with the Scottish Trades Union Congress about the employment prospects in Scotland.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: I met the Scottish Trades Union Congress twice during 1970, and they had a meeting this week with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at which I was present. On all these occasions employment prospects in Scotland were discussed.
    Mr. Small: In view of the grave unemployment situation in Scotland, will the Secretary of State at regular intervals,

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    say quarterly, give advice to the S.T.U.C. on employment prospects?
    Mr. Campbell: I am glad to say that I have frequent meetings with leading members of the S.T.U.C. on the Scottish Economic Council and elsewhere, besides the meetings I have described. On all these occasions we have opportunities to talk about unemployment and what can be done to bring modern industry to Scotland and to encourage industry there to flourish and expand.

    Police (Pay)
    Mr. James Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a further statement on the progress of negotiations on police pay.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: Negotiations on the current pay claim are still proceeding in the Police Council for the United Kingdom and my right hon. Friend has not yet received a recommendation from it. The council negotiators are meeting again tomorrow.
    Mr. Hamilton: Will the Minister take cognisance that the Prime Minister told us yesterday that more than 3 per cent. of civil servants received a 20 per cent. increase? Will that be the yardstick for the police? Many areas in Scotland are under-manned. Will not the Government fulfil their election promise to give the police a fair deal and a living wage?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: As I am sure the hon. Gentleman appreciates, it would be quite wrong for me to comment on the merits of the claim while negotiations are proceeding. I entirely accept the need to strengthen the police. We gave that undertaking at the General Election, and we shall fulfil it.
    Mr. Dempsey: Is the Minister aware that thousands of police officers who joined the police force after the war are due to retire after 25 years' service, and that this will be a tremendous drain on the police force in Scotland unless a substantial increase in salary is awarded?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I accept, as the hon. Gentleman said, that one of the biggest problems is wastage. Another problem is that which he mentioned of the police officers who are coming up to retirement. This matter will be taken into account in the negotiations.

    Local Voluntary Organisations (Financial Assistance)
    Mr. Hugh D. Brownasked the Secretary of State for Scotland to how many local voluntary organisations he gives direct financial assistance for community purposes.
    Mr. Edward Taylor: In 1970 capital grants were made to 23 local community associations, 112 local sports clubs and 30 local youth organisations to help them to provide new or improve existing facilities.
    Mr. Brown: Could the hon. Gentleman not break with the conservative traditions of this Government, and indeed of previous Governments, and sponsor or assist, in co-operation with local authorities, the setting up of pilot schemes in community work in the light of the importance of community councils, even under Wheatley?
    Mr. Taylor: I am very much aware of the hon. Gentleman's great interest in this matter, and I assure him that I shall bear very much in mind what he said.

    Manufacturing Industry (Employment)
    Mr. Douglasasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the Scottish Economic Planning Board's estimates of the changes in employment in manufacturing industry in the period 1970 to 1975.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: The Scottish Economic Planning Board is carrying out, as a continuing exercise, an examination of the factors likely to determine labour supply and demand in Scotland over the next few years.
    Mr. Douglas: I hope that the Secretary of State will concede that, whatever estimates the Planning Board has made, it has been drawn off course by the high incidence of unemployment in Scotland, particularly in the manufacturing industry. Would he concede that his Government's policy is undermining the manufacturing base which the Labour Government created in Scotland?
    Mr. Campbell: The answer to the last part of the question is, "No". As many hon. Gentlemen know, before I came

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    into office I was prophesying unemployment in Scotland this winter if the Labour Government did not make changes. I was not myself surprised at what happened, but I regret it. The Labour Government in their 1966 White Paper estimated a net gain of 60,000 jobs, but during that period there was a net loss of 82,000.
    Mr. Strang: Since the Secretary of State has reminded us of his prophecy of unemployment this winter, would he give a categorical assurance that unemployment in Scotland next winter will be substantially less than it is now?
    Mr. Campbell: I can give an assurance that the changes which we have made and which the previous Government refused to consider should lead to a better situation next winter.

    Highlands and Islands Development Board
    Mr. Maclennanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had with the Highlands and islands Development Board concerning the development of the sporting estates in the Highlands and Islands.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: None, Sir, but sporting estates feature in the Board's first comprehensive development report on Kildonan.
    Mr. Maclennan: Will the Secretary of State repudiate the Prime Minister's statement last week that the Government would not allow the Highlands and Islands Development Board concerning compulsory powers, or does he believe that his friends, the sporting landlords of the Highlands, are interested, without compulsion, in providing employment?
    Mr. Campbell: No; the hon. Gentleman has completely misunderstood the point to which the Prime Minister was referring. I believe that the hon. Gentleman was in the House and will remember that the Highlands and Islands Development (Scotland) Bill, as first introduced, contained a Clause which would have given powers to take over compulsorily and run any kind of enterprise. Fortunately, the Government at that time accepted an Amendment to include the words "by agreement", which completely transformed the effect of that Clause, and said that this had been their intention.
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    Therefore, the legislation which finally emerged was quite different from the Bill as first published.
    Mr. David James: Is my right hon. Friend aware that as the trustee of a large highland sporting estate, I can tell him that for a long time we have offered the Highlands and Islands Development Board unlimited co-operation in developing sport and tourism?
    Mr. Campbell: As hon. Members know, I do not myself shoot or fish—
    Sir G. Nabarro: Why not?
    Mr. Campbell: I am sorry to say that I am 80 per cent. disabled. But I am aware that sport can contribute to the Highlands and its economy and should be compatible with agricultural and other pursuits.
    Mr. Douglas: Would the right hon. Gentleman look anew at his answer? The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, in answer to a question put by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, clearly stated that the Board would not be allowed to use its compulsory powers. Would he examine this matter, since we do not wish to have the record corrected again? This is an important point and I ask him to look at what we have said.
    Mr. Campbell: I heard the Prime Minister on that occasion and I have a report of his words with me. I wish to make the record clear, because I took part in those other proceedings in the debates on that Bill when on the Opposition Front Bench. The hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Douglas) was not in the House at that time. When that was referred to outside this House as "a Marxist Measure". it was in relation to Clause 6, which at that time was an odious and obnoxious Clause, which was later changed to the satisfaction of the whole House.
    Mr. Maclennan: Does the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the Prime Minister was not referring to powers which the Board does not enjoy but to compulsory powers which are contained in the Act? Will he give an assurance, in contradiction to what was said by the Prime Minister, that the Board will be allowed to use compulsory powers which it enjoys?
    Mr. Campbell: Again the hon. Gentleman is wrong. The Prime Minister was replying to a question put by the Leader of the Opposition referring to the remark about its being a Marxist Measure.—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Gentlemen can look it up. I have the quotation with me. The Prime Minister was replying to a question about its being a Marxist Measure, which was a reference to Clause 6 in the Bill as it first appeared. Later in the Bill we discussed the compulsory powers. This is all on the record.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a deputation from the Highlands and Islands Development Board recently visited the Midland counties? When the Board repeats its visit, would my right hon. Friend arrange lo accompany the Board and then, after it has completed its official duties, proceed to South Worcestershire where I will offer my right hon. Friend excellent fishing, shooting, hunting and other sporting facilities?
    Mr. Campbell: As I have indicated, I am afraid that they can be of little use to me but I am very much aware of the welcome the Highlands and my area of the North gave to my hon. Friend when he made a visit there recently.

    Teachers (Shortage)
    Mr. MacArthurasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what further study he proposes to make of the secondary teacher shortage in 1972–73.
    Mr. Edward Taylo: My right hon. Friend's Department is currently engaged on studies of staffing needs.
    The main purpose of these investigations is to establish more objective standards for determining the numbers of teachers needed by different types and sizes of secondary school.
    Mr. MacArthur: Is my hon. Friend aware that the estimates of the shortage grow larger and larger and that part-time education in Scotland has now reached alarming proportions? Does he consider it educationally wise to raise the school-leaving age throughout Scotland in these circumstances?
    Mr. Taylor: As my hon. Friend is aware, the problem, though serious, is concentrated largely in several areas.
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    This is a major problem, but I can assure my hon. Friend that we are conscious of the need to recruit more teachers and are taking all possible steps we can.
    Mr. Rankin: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that in 1946 the Labour Government, faced with teaching conditions infinitely worse than those faced by the present Government, raised the school-leaving age? Will the Tory Government, when they face the issue in far better circumstances, ensure that the school-leaving age goes up to 16?
    Mr. Taylor: We have already said that it is the Government's intention to proceed with the arrangements for raising the school-leaving age on the due date. But I do not accept criticism from the Labour Party, bearing in mind the very severe teacher shortage which the Labour Government left this Administration.
    Mr. Buchan: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the best single thing which he could do to guarantee that we recruited the kind of teacher we require would be to give the House an assurance today that Scottish teachers will not be put on the chopping block, as the Government have done to every other public servant in recent wage negotiations? I hope that he will not follow the lead given by his right hon. Friend in leaning on the local authorities. Such a guarantee would go a long way towards helping the situation in Scottish schools.
    Mr. Taylor: I assure the hon. Gentleman that it is the Government's policy to ensure that there is fairness in all our dealings with everyone. I hope that our general policy will be infinitely better than the shambles which the previous Government left us.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker: This is the second occasion on which we have not reached the Questions tabled to the Minister for the Civil Service. The difficulty is that on the one side there is an insatiable quest for information and on the other an almost remorseless endeavour to give it. I therefore hope that this matter may be considered again because I do not think that the situation is very satisfactory.
Sir G. Nabarro: On a point of order. Would you, Mr. Speaker, given your guidance and help to frustrated Sassenach Members such as myself on Scottish Question days? As it is possible to reach the "Minister for the Bureaucracy" by Questions only once every three weeks, and as we have been frustrated by the loquacity of the Scots so that only 30 Questions have been answered, would you, Mr. Speaker, prevail on the authorities to rearrange matters in such a fashion that the "Minister for the Bureaucracy" comes in at Question No. 15 on Wednesdays, thus enabling us every three weeks to put Questions to him instead of being squeezed out by these Scots?
Mr. Speaker: I have noted the hon. Gentleman's remarks about loquacity. My intervention had very much the same purpose in view.
Mr. David Steel: Further to the point which you raised, Mr. Speaker. I wish to refer to a matter within your control. Is not one of the difficulties that there is such a galaxy of Opposition Front Bench spokesmen on Scottish affairs—no fewer than six, I understand—it is very difficult to increase the number of Questions answered and extremely difficult for back-bench Members to put any questions at all?
Mr. Speaker: It would be very dangerous for me to pronounce on galaxies, on whatever bench they might be.
Mr. Lawson: Further to the point of order. I hope that you, Mr. Speaker, will bear in mind that the Secretary of State for Scotland is responsible for the equivalent of about seven Ministries and that we have very little opportunity to question him. Therefore, when you consider this matter, I hope that you will try to ensure that it is not Scottish Questions which suffer.
Mr. Speaker: I think that the hon. Gentleman is on a very real point. In trying to get along as quickly as possible, one has to give proper time for matters to be investigated because there is a very broad spectrum to be examined. I will bear the point in mind. But it is not for me; it is for the usual channels.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: Further to the point of order. May I say with respect, Mr. Speaker, that it is within your power to
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deal with the matter raised by the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) about the number of supplementary questions put by what are termed privileged right hon. Members—Privy Councillors and Front Bench spokesmen on both sides of the House. We know that the custom is for Mr. Speaker to give privileges to Privy Councillors in debate. [Interruption.] Listen.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am listening very carefully.
Mr. Lewis: I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. I was trying to deal with the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro). A custom which has been carried on for some time is that Mr. Speaker gives privileges to Privy Councillors in debate. Hon. Members on both sides of the House may accept that —[HON. HEMBERS: "No."]—but it is taking things a bit far if right hon. Members who do not table Questions are given precedence in asking supplementary questions on Questions which other Members have tabled? May I suggest that you look into this matter, Mr. Speaker, and do not give preference to Front Bench spokesmen and Privy Councillors just because of the positions they hold to the detriment of other Members?
Mr. Speaker: This is almost a case of the biter bit. I am almost regretting that I said anything at all on the matter. However, only one Privy Councillor has been called today. At Question Time I try to call those who I think are entitled to ask questions. I cannot call all hon. Members who wish to ask questions, and I regret that. However, I will bear in mind everything that has been said.
Mr. Ross: Would it not be much easier for members of the Liberal Party to get a Question answered if they tabled one? The Liberal Party has not tabled a single Question to Scottish Ministers today.
Mr. Pavitt: Further to the point of order of my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell (Mr. Lawson) dealing with the extent of the responsibilities of the Scottish Office. I should like to seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker. This situation arises not only with the Scottish Office but as a result of the combination of a

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large number of responsibilities in giant Ministries. Even though Questions are tabled early, many of them are not reached because more than 100 Questions are put down before four o'clock. May I ask the Leader of the House through you, Mr. Speaker, to consider how Questions tabled for answer by giant Departments with multiple responsibilities can be reached?
Mr. Speaker: I do not think that the time which we have spent on this matter has been wasted. There is a real problem, and I hope that the subject can be considered through the usual channels.
Mr. Dempsey: On a point of order. In accordance with the rules for tabling Questions, I called at the Table Office 21 days ago at 10 a.m. and tabled my Questions No.43 which has not been answered today. May I ask you, Mr.Speaker, to suggest through the usual channels, which I believe are unusual at the moment, that as Members hand in their Questions they be numbered so that they can be dealt with fairly when the Order Paper is published?
Mr. Speaker: I will ensure that the hon. Gentlemen's point is considered.

TEACHERS (SALARIES)
Mr. Edward Shortasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she will make a statement on the breakdown of negotiations on teachers' salaries.
The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): The management panel has made an open offer, based on a new structure, which would give every teacher an increase from 1st April of at least 8 per cent., and would increase the total salary bill in 1971–72 by £51 million or 8·8 per cent. This offer has been rejected by the teachers' panel. A further meeting of the Burnham Committed is arranged for 5th March. Negotiations therefore have not broken down.
Mr. Short: Is the right hon. Lady aware that it is true only in a technical sense that negotiations have not broken down? They have in fact broken down. The next meeting is merely to hear the
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teachers' replies on arbitration. Is she aware that both major teachers' organisations have announced today that they refuse to take part in arbitration and, therefore, that the only way in which there can be arbitration is if the right hon. Lady imposes it upon them? Is she also aware that neither the teachers' unions nor any others have any faith in arbitration under this Government? The whole concept of arbitration is now discredited. Is she also aware that I share with her the view that teachers' salaries should be restructured to give the career teacher a better salary? Is she further aware that the proposals of the Management Committee, in which her representatives have concurred, are utterly unacceptable to the teachers because they divide up the teaching profession? How does she reconcile her support for this new structure, which would further widen the gulf between primary schools and secondary schools, with her professed desire to close this gap? Finally, how does she reconcile this miserable offer—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!".]—with the increases agreed for the Civil Service and nurses and the very large increases for the police to be announced tomorrow?
Mrs. Thatcher: I will take the right hon. Gentleman's points in the order in which he raised them. The Burnham Committee will meet again a week on Friday and, therefore, negotiations are still continuing. On the right hon. Gentleman's second point, it might perhaps be helpful to give the precise arrangements for arbitration which, in the event of a breakdown, are that an independent chairman shall be appointed by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment after consultation with the panels, and two members shall be selected by my right hon. Friend, one from each of two lists of not fewer than four individuals each considered suitable by the Teachers' Panel and by the Management Panel respectively of the relevant committee.
I think that the restructuring proposals are good proposals for the Teachers' Panel to consider. As negotiations continue, I do not think that it would be right to go any further on that point.
Finally, I think that the conditions of service of the nurses and the kind of offer made with regard to night duty, etc.,

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are really rather different from the conditions of service of the teachers and the kind of restructuring offer which has been made to them.
Mr. Short: Is the right hon. Lady saying now that she will impose arbitration on the teachers? Clearly, the process that she has described cannot take place without the co-operation of the teachers. Both major organisations have said today that they will not co-operate. In view of that, will she impose it?
Secondly, will the right hon. Lady answer my question about how she is able to say that these are good proposals for restructuring? How can she reconcile her support for them with her professed aim to close the gap between primary and secondary schools, when she knows that these proposals will widen the gap?
Mrs. Thatcher: The right hon. Gentleman asks whether I would impose arbitration. I was not saying anything of the kind. I was saying that the time for arbitration has not yet arrived. Therefore, no decision has been made.
As for the structural arrangements, I stand by what I said. The restructuring arrangements are good and worthy of consideration by the Teachers' Panel.
Mr. Hornby: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the reform of the salary scale for teachers is a very necessary and long overdue element in any settlement that might be reached? Does not she also agree that it would be a great pity if these negotiations were to break down on this point? Does my right hon. Friend agree, finally, that the right hon. Gentleman's comments are one more example of the Opposition backing the highest bid, whatever the circumstances?
Mrs. Thatcher: I hope that the negotiations will continue a week on Friday and will not break down. I hope, too, that they will result in a structural agreement.
Mr. Marks: Does not the right hon. Lady agree that the total amount available for this increase is quite inadequate and that an 8 per cent. increase will not even cope with the rise in the cost of living since the last award when one considers taxation and other deductions from pay? Does not she agree, further,
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that the offer of a basic minimum of something like £1,059 is totally inadequate, especially to people who have spent three or four years living on student grants?
Mrs. Thatcher: On a question of fact, the offer on the bottom scale for the three-year trained teacher would be £1,055 in the first year rising by 12 increments of £70 and one increment of £95, followed by a further increment of £100, the last increment to be given after three years, the others to be annual, to a maximum of £2,090. That is the basic scale. There are several scales above that. The maximum for the topmost head teacher would be £5,275 a year. It is inevitable that in any restructuring offer the amount in the first year should be followed by further benefits in successive years as teachers reach higher maxima by larger increments.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: Would not it be a remarkable surprise if one of the Opposition Front Bench spokesmen asked a constructive question on a pay dispute, instead of trying to make mischief?
Mr. Barry Jones: Is not it apparent in the current negotiations with the teachers that the local authorities are tied hand and foot to the Treasury Ministers? Is the right hon. Lady aware that the offer now made would result in a declining standard of living for teachers? Finally, is not there evidence that the phantom Secretary of State for Wales has responsibility for teachers in Wales?
Mrs. Thatcher: The Management Panel made it clear at its Press conference yesterday afternoon that it both spoke and speaks with one voice, by which it meant the local authorities and the Government representatives on the panel. I am happy to say that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales is also in agreement with me.
Mr. Jennings: Is it correct that the first offer has since been raised by the management side to 9·7 per cent.? Secondly, has my right hon. Friend studied the long history of arbitration proposals during the regime of the previous Government?
Mrs. Thatcher: The conventions provide for "without prejudice" offers to be made higher than open offers, with a

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view to trying to secure agreement. Such an offer was made. But such a without prejudice offer lapses if agreement is not secured.
Mr. Short: In the interests of accuracy, will the right hon. Lady make it clear that that higher offer was conditional upon the teachers accepting in their entirety the structural proposals of the management side?
Mr. Jennings: What about arbitration under the previous Government?
Mrs. Thatcher: All the offers have been made in relation to the structural proposals.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I propose to move on now and, if I may, I will say why. It is a matter entirely for the Chair whether a Private Notice Question is accepted. I decided, after some initial doubt, to accept this one today. There has been eight supplementary questions. I do not think that because a Private Notice Question is accepted that necessarily means spending a quarter of an hour on each one. In this case, we have heard about the further meeting of the Burnham Committee on 5th March. There will be plenty of other opportunities to raise this matter again.
Mr. Pardoe: On a point of order. Do you consider it satisfactory, Mr. Speaker, that three of those supplementary questions should have come from the Opposition Front Bench spokesman? Is that a fair representation, knowing that the right hon. Gentleman represents only one union represented on the Teachers' Panel?
Mr. Short: Further to that point. I must ask the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) to withdraw that remark. In this House, I represent the electors of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central.

TEACHERS (SALARIES)

  BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR FRIDAY, 12th MARCH
  Members successful in the Ballot were:
  Mr. John Horam.
  Captain L. P. S. Orr.
  Mr. Neil Kinnock.

  BILLS PRESENTED
    MECHANICS OF PAYMENT OF ALIMENT BILL
    Mr. Tam Dalyell, supported by Mr. Peter Archer, Mr. Joe Ashton, Mr. Michael Barnes, Mr. Alex Eadie, Mrs. Doris Fisher, Mr. Robert Hughes, Mr. Michael Meacher, Mr. Bruce Millan, Mr. Merlyn Rees, Mr. James Sillars, and Mr. James Tinn, presented a Bill to transfer responsibility for the mechanics of collection and payment of alimony or aliment awarded to women, by court order, from the individual to the Ministry of Social Security and the Inland Revenue: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time Friday 30th April and to be printed. [Bill 121.]
    PUBLIC HEALTH ACT (AMENDMENT) BILL
    Mr. James Wellbeloved, supported by Dr. Reginald Bennett, Mr. Michael Cocks, Mr. Sydney Chapman, Mr. David Steel, Mr. James Scott-Hopkins, Sir John Langford-Holt and Mr. Arthur Davidson, presented a Bill to extend the powers of the Secretary of State for the Environment under section 4 of the Public Health Act 1961: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time Friday 5th March and to be printed. [Bill 120.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS BILL
  [Tenth Allotted Day]
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 23rd February].
  [Sir ROBERT GRANT-FERRIS in the Chair.]

  INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS BILL
    Clause 121

      PEACEFUL PICKETING
      Amendment No. 873 [23rd February], in page 83, line 37, to leave out the words
      'not being a place where he resides '.—[Mr. Harold Walker.]
      Question again proposed, That the Amendment be made.
      3.52 p.m.
      Mr. James Sillars: I rise to speak simply because, I was on my feet when the Guillotine fell last night. I want to put a question or two about peaceful picketing in the sense of peacefully communicating information to or obtaining it from someone.
      On television the other night the cameras followed a blackleg postman strikebreaking who passed the local headquarters of the Union of Post Office Workers. The strikers came out and hurled at him what some people might consider abusive language. It was on the lines that the strike-breaker was nothing better than a quisling. Some might think this abusive language, while other might regard it as fair comment. I will not comment, having been called a quisling by Scottish Nationalists.
      In the context of this Clause, would the shouting of that slogan, which is certainly communicating information or opinions about the strike-breaker from the strikers be construed as peacefully communicating it to him, or would the branch secretary who shouted the slogan be in breach of the law under the Clause?
      Mr. Edward Gardner: This Clause restricts, in the narrowest sense, the place where peaceful picketing may lawfully take place, but also implies, although it does not express, recognition of a distinction between peaceful picket-
      576
      ing at the place where a person works and other places and peaceful picketing at or near his home.
      This is a real and fundamental distinction. The nature and character of peaceful picketing when done at or near a person's work and the nature and character of it at or near his home are very different. A person who refuses to follow the decisions of his union, however right they may be, is entitled to look upon his home as a place of refuge. If he cannot do that, there is no other hiding-place.
      Mr. Stanley Orme: The hon. and learned Member is continuing the argument expounded on his side last night. Would he now give some conclusive evidence in relation to this type of picketing which is in favour of changing the law in this way?
      Mr. Gardner: I shall come to this point, which was raised by the hon. Member last night. I find it a difficult line of argument to follow.
      If one thinks that some action is so offensive that it should be prohibited by law, it seems to me, as I hope it will seem to the majority of the Committee, that it is quite irrelevant to consider statistics to decide how many times, if at all, that offensive action has happened in the past or the present. We are legislating for the future. What we want to ensure is that this kind of action, which we regard as offensive—on the immaculate principle that a person is entitled to protection within the confines of his own home—should not be allowed by law. This proposition is neither strengthened nor weakened by the production of statistics.
      Mr. Sydney Bidwell: Although the undefinable nature of whether or not something was taking place near a person's home has been demonstrated in the discussions so far, and although, therefore, the law is rendered unenforceable—we wait with bated breath to hear the Solicitor-General answer this point—would the hon. and learned Gentleman still uphold this obscurity in the light of the absence of evidence to show that the law should go so far?
      Mr. Gardner: This is not an unrealistic or obscure point or one which anyone considering the reality of the situation

      577
      should have the slightest difficulty in following.
      Mr. James Johnson: Is the hon. and learned Member aware that having to listen to that sort of claptrap nauseates me`? Some of us, like myself, were born in mining villages and can cast our minds back to 1926. None of us, in our working-class homes in long terrace housing, knew any incidents of this nature. I have not heard or seen this. I have spent my life among the working class and this hypothetical legislation nauseates people like me.
      Mr. Gardner: If this is hypothetical then where is the harm in making such behaviour unlawful? What is wrong in saying that this should not be done if it is the sincere view of hon. Members opposite that such behaviour is not likely to happen?
      Mr. James Johnson: It is Wonderland.
      Mr. Gardner: It is not Wonderland. It is today and it may be tomorrow. These are difficult points, some of them points of law but all of them with an application to our everyday life. Hon. Members cannot close their minds to the realities of the industrial scene. I do not close my mind to what is happening outside daily, and to what appears to be a situation which could drift towards disaster, a situation in which extremists may take over, although I hope that they never will.
      4.0 p.m.
      If, as is suggested by the Opposition, the precautions we are seeking to import into this Bill are likely to be unnecessary and unreal, let me put it to the test in this way. If I were to stand here and say to this Committee that pickets who were trying to persuade Post Office workers or any other workers in an industrial dispute had been going to the homes of those workers there would, I suppose and I would expect, be an outcry.
      Mr. Orme: Give us some evidence.
      Mr. Gardner: There is no evidence. I am not suggesting that there is. What I suggest to the Committee is that there is a real distinction between peaceful picketing outside a man's place of work
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      and peaceful picketing outside his home. The Committee cannot overlook the fact that "peaceful picketing" is a misnomer. Peaceful picketing is quite different from friendly picketing. The peaceful picket trying to persuade someone whom he regards as a blackleg to return to work is more likely to be hostile than friendly, more likely to incite fear than respect.
      It takes a strong mind and a courageous conviction to enable a person to defy his union's decision and to continue working. Neither trade union leaders nor members of the Opposition must be surprised at the admiration which has been accorded to trade union workers, including the young women, who have stood up to the picket lines recently. This is no more than an elementary precaution that we are introducing into the Bill, one that is needed and which I ask the Committee to support.
      Mr. Charles Loughlin: Like the hon. and learned Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner), I want to see the protection of people who are are in their own homes. It is only a short time ago that a Tory councillor in one of the rural districts in my constituency suggested that there should be a demonstration outside my home because of something which the Minister had failed to do. I resented it and I would resent anyone interfering with a person in their own home.
      I want to place before the Committee certain circumstances in which peaceful pickets might be put at risk as a result of talking to people near their homes and might be caught by the provisions of the Bill. To some extent participation in industrial organisation and my working-class background enables me to see the difficulties of this part of the Clause. I was engaged in distribution and we often had disputes, although not as often as some other unions.
      A considerable number of people such as shop managers live on the premises, either at the back of or over a shop. It would be very difficult for peaceful pickets to keep within the law if they attempted to picket such people near their own homes. The caretaker of a school is in a similar position. There would be a difficulty in someone peacefully picketing such a person. This is legislation which will not apply to lawyers but to ordinary

      579
      people who will not make the sophisticated distinctions that we sometimes make.
      What is likely to create a greater incidence of breaches of the regulations is the situation which can arise in areas where there is an enormous number of terraced houses. We live in a close community. I know hon. Gentlemen opposite, like myself, live in a small community and perhaps in detached houses. But when people live in an area where there are a number of terraced houses—
      Mr. Dennis Skinner: Colliery houses.
      Mr. Loughlin: I am coming to that because I have a number in my constituency. Take the example of colliery houses and let us suppose that the men coming off the night shift decide upon strike action and want to stop the next shift going in. The relationship between miners and their workmates is not perhaps so formalised as it might be in other sections of the community. There would be nothing unusual in Tom Jones knocking on the door of Harry Brown and saying, "Don't go in Harry, we're on strike."
      Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that he is arguing against the proposition that the Englishman's home is his castle and that he is arguing instead in favour of the proposition that the Englishman's home is Barbara Castle?
      Mr. Loughlin: Sir Robert, we all consider ourselves comedians, but this is not the type of comment to make during this debate. terruption.] If the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Kenneth Lewis) has a giggling fit, will he kindly leave the Chamber?
      Mr. Thomas Swain (Derbyshire, North-East): There is a place for him just round the corner.
      Mr. Loughlin: Because Tom Jones has told his colleague to strike, it is possible that he will be in jeopardy, not because of the intention of the Government but because of the way in which the Bill will operate. I do not believe that the Government wish to stop peaceful picketing. The trouble with this legislation is that
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      if one is not caught under one provision, one is caught under another. For example, peaceful picketing will be allowed, but once blacking comes into it, it will be illegal.
      Mr. Daniel Awdry: The hon. Gentleman is quoting an example of one man telling another not to go to work. How could that be an offence under the Conspiracy, and Protection of Property Act, 1875? We are referring to two or three people using violence.
      Mr. Loughlin: Perhaps Tom Jones is not giving this advice. Maybe two or three men are telling a colleague not to go to work.
      Mr. Kenneth Lewis: That is a different story.
      Mr. Loughlin: The trouble with hon. Gentlemen opposite is that they do not know the first thing about the habits of working-class people. The Clause says:
      "The provisions of this section shall have effect where one or more persons … 'pickets' … in contemplation or furtherance of an industrial dispute".
      I am not sure that I was wrong when I was referring to one man giving certain advice or taking action. The wording of the Bill is so vague that the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Awdry) may be reading more into the word "one" than I am.
      The Government are trying to stop people conducting effective picketing, because the most effective picketing that I have known is not when employees have been stopped from going to work but when supplies on their way to a factory have been stopped. The Government have, perhaps inadvertently, drafted the Bill in such a way that people may find themselves in breach of the Measure when the Government do not wish that to happen. In view of the way in which people not only work but also live, I hope that the Amendment will be accepted.
      Mr. Michael Grylls: I well understand that the right to carry out peaceful picketing is something which the trade unions value very much. It has been made clear in the earlier discussions on this issue that there has been no intention on the part of the Government to remove this general right. That should be clearly on the record.

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      The only point in dispute between the two sides of the Committee is whether it is wise for the Government to approve, and endorse in the Bill, the picketing of a man's home. Hon. Members will agree that there is a certain sacredness about one's home and family life and that these should be left undisturbed. While certain forms of peaceful picketing would obviously not necessarily disturb one's private life, as Donovan made clear, such disturbances could happen. That was clear from the quotation which the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker) gave yesterday, after I asked him to read a passage from the Report.
      As my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington, South (Mr. Scott) said yesterday, it is up to hon. Gentlemen opposite to prove that there is an absolute need to allow and authorise the picketing of a person's home. Unless they can prove this need, the Government are right to take the view that is taken by the Bill. In other words, hon. Gentlemen opposite have not proved that it is absolutely necessary and, in the absence of that proof, it would be irresponsible of the Government, in the comprehensive reform and modernisation of the trade unions on which we are embarked, to condone the picketing of a person's home.
      4.15 p.m.
      Mr. Harold Walker: I remind the hon. Gentleman that when I quoted that passage from Donovan, at his invitation, I stressed the fact that the Royal Commission had pointed out that there were existing remedies under the law for other than peaceful picketing and that people were protected against violence by the law as it stood.
      Mr. Grylls: I appreciate that, but paragraph 855 of Donovan took away the importance of wanting to picket a person's home by stating:
      "From a striker's point of view, the most effective means for this purpose is the placing of pickets outside the place of work."
      It should not, therefore, be necessary to picket a person's home.
      In industrial disputes feelings can, and almost always do, run high on both sides. It is possible to imagine circumstances when two or three members of a strike committee might visit the home of a worker who, for one reason or another,
      582
      good or bad, disapproves of the strike that is in progress. It needs little imagination to believe that an incident could flare up in which the wife and small children in the home of such a person could become involved.
      If the family of a Member of Parliament becomes involved in such an affair, then tiresome and upsetting though it may be, it is something which we accept when we enter politics. However, it is not the sort of thing which the ordinary worker should be forced to accept by having to tolerate the picketing of his home. I hope, therefore, that hon. Gentlemen opposite will appreciate that this is in no way trying to restrict liberty. It is the reverse. It is trying to preserve the liberty and sanctity of the home.
      The factory can, of course, be picketed and, as Donovan said, picketing a factory is probably the most effective way of doing it. Perhaps the public house and shops can be picketed. However, picketing should be restricted to places other than the home. I cannot believe that hon. Gentlemen opposite will claim that, in this context, the preservation and protection of home life can be considered an illiberal act.
      Mr. John Mendelson: I was amazed to hear the general legislative doctrine which the hon. and learned Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner) advanced when he said that one did not need evidence or statistics in this sphere but only legislation. It so happens, happily, that there are many practised and experienced Parliamentarians present on his side, and they must be as appalled as I am at this suggestion. We could legislate on anything on that basis.
      For example, the Association of Paper Manufacturers has various regional bodies. I believe that one meets in Leeds once a month. It sometimes takes certain stringent decisions as to how each paper manufacturer should behave on matters of pricing, conditions and general policy. Discussions take place, and a nod is as good as a wink. It frequently occurs that they sometimes call upon each other at home because Mr. So-and-so might have missed the monthly meeting. As a matter of courtesy, a colleague calls at his home, perhaps on a Saturday afternoon, and informs him of what passed at the meeting and indicates to

      583
      him the decisions. There is never anything untoward, any threat or intimidation, as far as I know. But somebody might say, "Let us now legislate. Although there is no evidence or statistics", as the hon. Gentleman was saying, "that anything untoward ever happens, just the same we want to legislate and make it unfair industrial practice or an offence for a member of the association who has not been attending the monthly meeting in Leeds to be called upon by a colleague or by another entrepreneur in the same trade."
      That is only a preliminary remark. I am not dealing with the substance of the matter yet. Surely there has to be a reason for legislation. In the absence of a reason it is absurd to argue that there should be legislation.
      Sir Derek Walker-Smith: Before the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) finishes the exercise of testing the water before taking his more definitive plunge, would not he agree that if it be right that there is this good situation amongst manufacturers and that there is no apprehension of abuses, it is because a Conservative Government in 1956 legislated, under the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, to ensure that there would be no unfair commercial practices, just as a Conservative Governernment are now legislating to ensure that there will be no unfair industrial practice?
      Mr. Mendelson: I thought that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would bring up that point. That is why I put in three kinds of activity which passed at that meeting. We have not the time to go into the accuracy of the point the right hon. and learned Gentleman made. Even if it were true, the other two stand.
      Mr. Gardner: The example given by the hon. Member for Penistone was one of an approach to a man's house for a perfectly legitimate and unobjectionable purpose, and he says that this is the sort of behaviour which, if the Committee so wished, could be legislated against. It could be. But the kind of behaviour which I was predicating and which we are now considering is offensive behaviour and becomes more offensive the nearer it gets to a man's home. That is the sort of behaviour against which we on this
      584
      side of the Committee feel that we ought to legislate.
      Mr. Mendelson: The hon. and learned Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner) can get as much into harness as he wants, but it is obvious that I have talked past him. I have not yet reached the substance of the argument. I am merely trying to puncture his general case that we do not need any evidence for the legislation before going ahead with it. If the hon. and learned Gentleman does not want to follow me into the logic of it, I leave the matter there because we are under the Guillotine.
      In another part of his speech the hon. and learned Gentleman said, "Anybody will see that we can legislate although there is no evidence". Who does he mean by "anybody"? The Donovan Commission—not just "anybody", but the appointed experts on this matter, drawn from industry, the law and the employers' side—in its Report at paragraph 877 states:
      "A majority of members consider that the Commission has had no evidence of abuse of the right to picket sufficient to justify such a restriction."
      Surely it cannot be maintained in the face of that that anybody—which means "everybody" in this connection—will see the wisdom of that approach.
      On the substance of the matter, the Clause is widely drawn, because in lines 39, 40 and 41 on page 83 it states:
      "… and do so only for the purpose of peacefully obtaining information from him or peacefully communicating information to him or peacefully persuading him to work or not to work."
      That means that only one part of the Clause deals with persuading a colleague either to work or not to work." Of capital importance for the Committee is that the first two lines do not deal with persuading a colleague to work or not to work but deal with either obtaining information from him or imparting information to him. This is a very serious departure from the ordinary rights of Englishmen to call upon a colleague and ask him a question or impart information to him. In the face of that, the remarks of the hon. Gentleman appear particularly ridiculous.
      The onus of proof is on the Government. It is not on the Opposition or anybody else. It is the Government's

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      legislation. Surely nobody can contradict me on that point. That at least ought to be common ground. If the Government want to interfere with such long-established traditional rights, what is the reason?
      I want to separate the two propositions to which the Amendment is linked. The first proposition—that of obtaining information and imparting information—could be an ordinary discussion. How will right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite defend the first part of these three lines to their constituents? How will they defend the interference with this right unless there have been so many hundreds of thousands of cases where the right of merely calling upon each other has been abused and the evidence is overwhelming? That is how we proceed in legislation. We do not suddenly say, "We shall have a law for this, that and the other", if there is no reason for it.
      I deeply object to those two lines especially, and to any of the legislation being introduced. Hon. Members opposite have not dealt with that so far. It will restrict the rights in future, in whatever way, of people, be they paper manufacturers, miners—as some of my constituents are—or steel workers, to call upon each other to impart or receive information.
      Mr. Raymond Gower rose—
      Mr. Mendelson: I do not wish to give way, because we are under the Guillotine. Some of my constituents work in the steel industry. Let us suppose that something occurs at work at 2 o'clock in the morning—as it recently did—and there is a dispute between the manager and two men, and the manager decides, wrongly in the view of the trade unionists, to send the men home without further ado, and the workers adopt a certain attitude. As the Committee knows, each piece of machinery is run by three shifts and there are teams of people who take over at 6 a.m. Surely it must be the right of ordinary citizens, on the way home between 2 a.m. and 6 a.m., to call upon one of their colleagues and to tell him what has happened. This would become an offence—an unfair industrial practice—under the Bill. The words are
      "for the purpose of peacefully obtaining information from him or peacefully communicating information".
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      We are not dealing with the case of somebody saying, "Please do not go to work".
      4.30 p.m.
      Let us assume that two workers do not wish to call upon somebody else but wish to wait outside the house of one of their colleagues until he comes home from work. Instead of calling on him at an unearthly hour, they decide to wait outside his house until he comes out or comes home so that they can inform him of something that took place at two o'clock in the morning. This would then begin to be the process of persuasion, because what is the purpose of imparting such information? It is an implied appeal to the sense of solidarity of those about to go to work. [Interruption.] I am putting a logical case to the Committee. I know that hon. Members opposite do not like a logical case because they cannot disprove it.
      Mr. Orme: On a point of order. It is impossible to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson).
      The Chairman: Order. I must ask hon. Gentlemen to be a little more orderly. If the hon. Member for Penistone does not give way, there is nothing they can do about it.
      Mr. Mendelson: I have no intention of giving way. At the point when these two colleagues who are outside the door of the house with the intention of imparting information to seek a show of solidarity for those who have stopped work express a point of view and start discussing the question with their colleague, it changes into the matter dealt with in the last two lines—
      "persuading him to work or not to work".
      If we allow these words to go through, the action I have described could be interpreted as picketing outside a home. The Clause is widely drawn and is a dangerous invasion into the ordinary rights of people, never mind about the rights of trade unionists.
      I do not know whether the hon. and learned Member for South Fylde was present when examples were given yesterday which showed the need to retain a residual right for trade unionists to call upon people or to wait for them outside their homes and to speak to them.

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      I will recall one of those examples. Strike breakers were hired by shipping employers and driven towards the place of work into the port, no chance being given or offered at any time for their striking colleagues to have any conversation with them. It can be said that a form of force was used to avoid any possible contact between the men who were on strike and those who were going to break the strike.
      Mr. Swain: This happened in North Derbyshire.
      Mr. Mendelson: Hon. Members will be able to quote other examples. In such a case, how are the members of a work group or of a trade union who happen to be on strike to contact the strike breakers? For all we know, it may be the most official and legitimate kind of strike that anybody can think of. In circumstances where the strike breaking force is driven in by the employers, who deliberately prevent any physical contact or conversation between those who normally work on the job and those who are driven in from outside, the people who normally work at the workplace are prevented even from saying to the strike breakers, "We think that in all conscience you should not do this".
      It is absurd to deprive people on strike in such circumstances of the opportunity of being able to go somewhere else. They might say, "Let us try to meet these men in the pub "or" on the market square". It is absurd to say that in no circumstances in such a situation should those who are on strike be able to say, "We know that so-and-so is involved in this strike breaking activity. Let us wait for him until he goes home and then we will have a word with him".
      Evidence is decisive. It is a proud claim of the trade union movement that it behaves peacefully even when involved in an industrial dispute. This is the factor which led the majority of the Donovan Commission to reach the conclusion that there is no need for legislation. It is important to weigh the evidence, to keep the situation that way, and not to introduce legislation that will make men feel bitter about their being prevented from even talking to people who are trying to break a strike.
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      This provision will not merely leave the situation where it is. It will do untold harm. This is why the Donovan Commission, after more than two years' work, rejected the idea of legislation.
      It must be remembered that these things are matters of psychological judgment. A sense of fair play is absolutely essential for our industrial relations. It is precisely in those circumstances that, if there is an exemption or an exception to the normal course according to Donovan, which is the absence of violence and only peaceful discussion, there is the criminal law.
      It has always been known that, in a situation of normal picketing at a factory gate, if anybody behaves in a way in which he should not behave and if peaceful picketing changes into something else, it immediately falls under the criminal law. Obviously, if anybody stood outside somebody else's home and did anything similar, it would immediately fall under the criminal law. The protection is there. There is no need to introduce this provision.
      Therefore, the onus of proof is on the Government. I can hardly think that the Solicitor-General is very pleased with his so-called support he has received from the hon. and learned Member for South Fylde and other Members behind him. They just want to hit at picketing; that is what they are after. They want to discredit the general idea of workpeople having the right to persuade their colleagues. [Interruption.] This is where the cloven hoof shows, as it shows itself in so many other Clauses.
      I repeat that that is what hon. Members opposite are after. The self-controlled Solicitor-General knows that he has to make a case for this. I do not believe that he can make a case for it. I therefore hope that we shall support the Amendment in the Lobby.
      Mr. Anthony Fell: I hope that the hon. and learned Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) will forgive me—
      Mr. Mendelson: The hon. Gentleman should know that I am not a learned Gentleman.
      Mr. Fell: I should have thought that it was unnecessary to protest so much; for indeed I would have thought that it

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      would have required a learned Gentleman to adduce such a speech in defence of such a case as the hon. Gentleman has just adduced. It was the most monstrous thing to say to the Committee that hon. Members on this side are out to destroy peaceful picketing. It is rubbish.
      The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin), alone amongst hon. Members opposite, at least made a concession when he said, "I do not believe that a person's house should be disturbed in any way by pickets or anybody else, but …". Then the hon. Gentleman went on to make his case.
      Mr. Loughlin: I did not say that I did not believe that a person's house should he disturbed by pickets. I said that I thought that a person's house was his castle. I thought that I said that it was to some extent a place that was private to the person concerned.
      Mr. Fell: It is either a person's castle or it is not. Either it is his private home and his private property or it is not.
      It is very difficult for right hon. and hon. Members opposite to defend their case on the Amendment. There is no defence for it, and they must know it. What is enormously surprising to the Committee is the amount of time that hon. Members have spent on this issue. Throughout our debates, I have on many occasions avoided speaking because! have felt, as we have all felt, that sensible and strong arguments were being put from the Opposition which, one understood, came from men who have lived their lives close to the matters we are discussing. But, on this question, I am astonished that hon. Members opposite should wish to fight against the Clause.
      It was astonishing yesterday to see the way my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) was constantly interrupted by the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), jumping up and down and yelling at my hon. Friend, telling her to "Shut up" and "Sit down", because we were working under a guillotine. For heaven's sake, why?—so that we could have two, three or four hours of debate on this subject? It is absolutely ludicrous. Many of us thought that the right hon. Lady must have been behaving in that way because she wanted to get through this subject and
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      pass to something really important. But not a bit of it.
      Mr. Harold Walker: Who does the hon. Gentleman think he is to judge the priorities?
      Mr. Fell: With the greatest respect, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not interrupt me from a sitting position, for every time he speaks he attacks me from a standing position.
      Mr. Walker: The hon. Gentleman challenges me to attack him from a standing position. Who the devil is he to judge the priorities in these matters?
      Mr. Fell: Obviously, I shall not reply to that delightful intervention. There is a serious point here. Is it no longer possible for one side of the Committee to talk to the other about anything?—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Penistone—
      Mr. Loughlin: On a point of order, Sir Robert. You will appreciate that we are working under a guillotine. The hon. Gentlemen has not yet referred to the Amendment, and he has been speaking for a few minutes already. Can you do something about it?
      The Chairman: There is some substance in that complaint. The hon. Gentleman ought now to come closer to the Amendment.
      Mr. Fell: With the greatest respect, it is utterly untrue for the hon. Gentleman, whom I have attempted to praise—the only one I did attempt to praise—to say that I have not referred to the Amendment. I referred to it at the beginning, and on several occasions since. So let us at least have some truth in this Committee, if nothing else.
      I am trying to make an appeal to the Opposition to be sensible for once and to support that part of the Clause which they now wish to delete. It will do them nothing but harm throughout the nation if it becomes known, as they seem to want it to become known, that they do not want the ordinary private individual's house to be protected against picketing.
      Mr. Alex Eadie: I shall not take up what was said by the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell). Throughout this debate, both today and last night, different views have been put

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      from each side of the Committee, and I have regarded it so far as a meaningful debate expressing the concern felt by both sides. If hon. Members opposite are irritated by what we say, they must, surely, accept that we are irritated by what some of them say.
      Mr. Fell: Hear, hear.
      Mr. Eadie: The hon. Gentleman may give a cheer at that, but, obviously, he does not know how people live. He just made debating points.
      One hon. Member opposite talked about general violence, and we have been told that, in order to make the case for our Amendment, we are required to justify the exclusion of these words. That is a queer concept to apply to the preparation of legislation. The onus lies on those who maintain that these words should stand.
      It must be acknowledged—some hon. Members have conceded it—that there is a greater wealth of experience on the subject of picketing and the circumstances arising from picketing among Members on this side than among hon. Members opposite. It is no good making demagogic speeches on this subject. It is a vital issue. We are conscious that in the circumstances associated with picketing people may be hurt. It is sometimes the tragedy of strikes that people are hurt. There never has been a strike or picketing in which someone, somewhere along the lines, has not been hurt in certain circumstances. We recognise that, and we agree that it is deplorable.
      The word "peaceful" seems to be thoroughly devalued by the Government in this debate. There are plenty of learned Members on his side, and I am sure that the Solicitor-General will have been appalled at the way in which they, and others, have sought to devalue the word "peaceful" in this Clause. It is a meaningful word to us, and anything which is unpeaceful comes under the criminal law.
      I have said that strikes are hurtful to people. I understand the argument when hon. Members opposite say that they do not want women and children hurt. Neither do we. Incidentally, on the question of the word "peaceful", the great demonstration which took place on Sun-
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      day was a good example of how the trade union movement tries to conduct its business in a peaceful manner.
      Sometimes, on the picket line—I have been there many times in my working life—there is provocation. One thing which pickets will not stand for is the chastising of women and children. We utterly reject the argument that our Amendment would mean that women and children would be penalised. Sometimes, there are hurts, but those who try to legislate for these things will find great difficulty. I understand what some hon. Members tried to say, but I want them to understand that in the aftermath of a strike there will sometimes be hurts.
      I have lived in a mining area all my life. After a strike is over, what happens? Women and children are hurt, because at school others will say, for instance, "That is John Macdonald, the son of blackleg Macdonald", or "That is Mary Macdonald, the son of blackleg Macdonald", and so on. [Laughter.] This carries on throughout the whole of their lives. Hon. Members opposite may laugh, but it is a very serious matter in a mining area.
      Mr. Loughlin: They do not know anything about it.
      Mr. Eadie: As my hon. Friend says, it illustrates their appalling ignorance on the subject of picketing.
      Mr. Tom King: The hon. Gentleman saw some of our faces, but he could not have seen the faces of his hon. Friends. I entirely understand the force of his argument, but by an unconscious slip of the tongue—this is what amused some hon. Members—he spoke of, "Mary Macdonald, the son of a blackleg".
      Mr. Eadie: I understand. In trying to rush my argument forward, I must have made a slip, but it was, surely, obvious what I meant. I am trying to put a serious argument.
      People will be hurt. I have known lads who have blacklegged. Sometimes, when they were old, after they had retired, perhaps, they have said to me, "Alec, it was a great mistake. I was selfish, and I inflicted hurt on the whole of my family". That sort of thing is the result of strikes. If hon. Members

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      opposite want to avoid hurts, they must try to solve that problem, not aggravate it.
      Captain Walter Elliot: The hon. Gentleman has spoken of the effect on a man's child at school. Is there not also a risk that hurt might come to his wife and family if his house were picketed?
      Mr. Eadie: It does not apply in that way at all. I am trying to show how illogical the Government are in trying to put a provision such as this in the Bill. This debate illustrates once again how important it is to recognise that, in dealing with industrial relations, one is dealing with human factors. I felt sorry for the chap who told me that he wished he had never blacklegged because it affected his whole family. In close communities this can have appalling effects. I am sorry that sometimes man's inhumanity to man occurs, but it is a factor. Even the most eminent Conservative lawyers could never legislate to prevent it. It illustrates, as it has throughout the Bill, that industrial relations is a very human question, which the law cannot solve.
      I wish that the Government had listened more to what my hon. Friends and I have said about industrial relations. They are building up tremendous problems for themselves in believing that the law can solve the question of industrial relations. We shall have to deal with it in a human way. We shall always be imperfect, but let us try to deal with it like that. That is the way to solve industrial relations, not by bringing in the law.
      Mr. Awdry: I intervene only because the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) would not give way to me, though I rose several times and was rightly rebuked by the Chair for doing so. The hon. Gentleman built up a great argument on a fallacy. He and his hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) said that if Tom Jones, or anyone else, went with two or three other men to see a fellow worker at his house with some information he would commit an offence. But that cannot be the position. Subsection (2) says:
      "In the circumstances specified in the preceding subsection, the attendance of the pickets at that place for that purpose—
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      (a) shall not of itself constitute an offence under section 7 of the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act 1875 —"
      We must see what that Act says.
      Mr. John Mendelson: That has nothing to do with this.
      Mr. Awdry: The hon. Gentleman took the example of going with information and waiting outside the house for the answer, but he cannot indicate any Act of Parliament that makes such an action an offence. It is necessary to look at the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act to find out whether there is conduct amounting to intimidation. That is why his argument is based on a fallacy. Surely, no one thinks that it could possibly be an offence for a man to go to see a colleague at his house. That would be absurd, and no one suggests that it could be an offence. It becomes an offence if there is an element of intimidation. That is what worries us.
      Mr. Loughlin: The hon. Gentleman must look at subsection (2) in relation to subsection (1). He has the thing all mixed up.
      Mr. Awdry: I do not approach this as a lawyer, but I think that I have got it right. Subsection (1) sets out the type of circumstances, and the offence referred to must be an offence under the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act, or another Act. I believe that I am right, but we will let my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General sort this out when he replies.
      Mr. Harold Walker: The final paragraph of Section 7 of the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act provided protection for exactly the groups of people who are now being exposed by the Bill. That paragraph was subsequently repealed by the 1902 Act. If those people are not to be exposed by the Bill, why was it necessary to write that paragraph into the 1875 Act?
      Mr. Awdry: It would be better if I did not try to be an amateur Solicitor-General on this point, and allowed my hon. and learned Friend to give us the answer. I understand that for an offence to be committed under the Clause there must be an element of intimidation. The discussion is all about whether that element of intimidation, that pressure, should be brought to a person's home.

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      I hope that the Opposition will accept the explanation to be given by my hon. and learned Friend. Perhaps it is a futile hope, but it would be much batter if occasionally we could see each other's point of view, and if the Opposition did not press on with an Amendment when a proper explanation was given. They do not have a strong case. I cannot believe that it is worth their while pressing the Amendment to the limit.
      Picketing is not a very pleasant practice, and it is bound to lead to a certain amount of argument and strife. I imagine that we all agree about that. If the argument and strife are brought to a person's home, it is rather odious.
      Mr. Skinner: The question of a person's home has been mentioned several times. The Bill speaks of
      "a place where he resides".
      In my constituency the place where the miner resides happens to be the place where he works; it is within the precincts of the pit, and the picket line is arranged around the back gardens of the houses. What I want an assurance on is whether
      "a place where he resides"
      is in conflict with the person's place of work.
      Mr. Awdry: That is a rather narrower point. What we are talking about is whether the argument and strife should be brought to the home of an individual worker. Several hon. Members asked yesterday for examples of violence, and I admit that I can give none. As far as I know, there has been no violence of this kind in my constituency. But we are talking not just about violence but about pressure. Picketing involves some pressure, which is applied to persuade a man not to work. Let me give an example. Two or three workers go to a man's house and call at the door or stand outside with armbands on with the intention of persuading that worker not to work. If he chooses to ignore them and go to work, there is bound to be unpleasantness and a row. The wife and children of that worker will be involved. Many wives are naturally very sensitive and do not want to be in the public gaze. They do not want to be involved in a public row and they hate it if unpleasantness comes into their homes. Many wives
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      would suffer in health if that happened. They would be distressed and there would be serious consequences for them.
      All that we on this side of the Committee are trying to do is to protect families from that situation. We are not trying to weaken the trade unions in any way. In our view, picketing can take place anywhere else in the world, in the factory or the street, but not in the home. That is what the debate is all about.
      Mr. E. Fernyhough: I am convinced after listening to two or three of the speeches by Conservative hon. Members that those who drafted the Bill lived in suburbia. A Clause like this could never have been drawn up by anyone who knew old industrial England. There must be many places in my constituency and elsewhere, particularly in Lancashire and the mining areas, where the houses abut the factories or mines. Some of the biggest works in my constituency have terraced houses right opposite their entrances. If any of the fellows who live in those houses work at the factory, where can the pickets peacefully picket without falling foul of the Clause? If they stand with their placards on the footpath opposite the works entrance, they will probably be standing outside the front door of people working at the factory. There is nowhere else where they can picket that factory. There are mills where houses abut on either side of the main entrance. This means that a picket outside that mill would, presumably, fall foul of the law even though he was not trying to picket a home but merely picketing the works. The closeness of the home to the factory gate would put the pickets in a peculiar position. We should have clarification of that.
      5.0 p.m.
      There is a far more modern form of intimidation than picketing. The telephone can be a very abusive and intimidating instrument. Yet there is no suggestion that anyone using a telephone to abuse or to persuade someone engaged in blacklegging to desist from doing so should fall foul of the Bill. I am not suggesting that, on Report, we should have an Amendment to make that possible, but we all know that the telephone can be a far greater intimidator and far more irritating than a knock on the door.
      Mr. Emlyn Hooson: Is not the right hon. Gentleman using a dangerous double-edged weapon and accepting that picketing is itself intimidating and equated with intimidation?
      Mr. Fernyhough: No. Temporarily, I am accepting the argument of those who want the Clause. They are saying that if I stand outside the home of a blackleg and that home is opposite the factory in which he works, if I have a placard or try to speak to him I fall foul of the law. That is something which has not been illegal in this country in the lifetime of any hon. Member here. It has not caused any difficulty or hardship except in so far as what my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) had to say about the 1926 strike. I remember that strike and I know that some of the bitterness lives on to this day. Hon. Members should remember how that bitterness arose. These men were engaged in a bitter struggle to protect their hard won rights and they felt that those who were not with them were against them.
      Surely this was a natural reaction. Hon. Members opposite who were captains and air marshals and what have you in the forces must have felt the same about men who deserted. They had no time for them. They thought that they were unworthy of the cause. Men engaged in an industrial struggle rightly or wrongly take the same line about colleagues as hon. Members opposite do about those who desert from the Armed Forces.
      The Solicitor-General should reconsider this matter. I do not believe that the industrial experience of Britain justifies a change in the law of this magnitude. Millions of days have been lost in strikes during the last 12 months, but not one hon. Member opposite has been able to give a single example in which a constituent has complained that picketing has in any way influenced or intimidated him. After all these years of practical experience in the House of Commons—some hon. Members have been here for many years—they are unable to call upon one example of a constituent saying that the law should be changed because he has had a bitter and formidable experience of picketing.
      In introducing a Clause of this kind, the Government are doing a great disservice to millions of ordinary men and
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      women in the trade union movement because they are pretending that those men and women are a lot of brutes who will force other people to comply with their views even if they do not agree with them. I do not accept that valuation of the average British worker. I think that the average British worker is a decent, law-abiding peaceable citizen. Hon. Members opposite have even tried to bring in the women and the children, but there is not a body of men whose whole existence has been so devoted to making the lives of their women and children happier as that of the men who belong to the trade union movement, because those men wanted to improve the standard for their children and to free their women folk. In view of our industrial history, there is no justification for the Clause and the hon. and learned Gentleman should willingly and gladly be guided by us and accept the Amendment.
      [Miss HARVIE ANDERSON in the Chair]
      The Solicitor-General (Sir Geoffrey Howe): The indiscriminate incomprehension and intemperance of the way that the Clause has been opposed and the Amendment proposed by hon. Members opposite gives one an insight into the frailty of the foundation of their argument. It is really an alarming and astonishing insight. There is no other Clause and no other Amendment in respect of which I have felt less doubt the longer the debate has proceeded. I see no reason to make any change in the Clause. In order to explain why, I need to explain just what we are on about and how slender is the change being proposed.
      Mr. Paul B. Rose: Why bother?
      The Solicitor-General: The hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) says, "Why bother?". I should like at the outset to explain the dilemma in which hon. Members opposite find themselves. On the one hand, they say that the possibility of anything happening at a person's home that could be complained of in the slighest way is so remote, so hypothetical, that there is no need to consider it in legislation. Very well. Let us accept the Clause as it stands and proceed upon that basis. Alternatively, they say that what we are doing is striking at the heart of the organisation of

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      trade unions, attacking their basic philosophy. Which is it? If it is part of the basic philosophy of organised labour to preserve the law as it stands and resist the Clause unamended, I am astonished and the country will be astonished as well.
      The Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act, 1875, is the foundation of this provision and is the only foundation upon which an offence in respect of picketing can be founded, unless it be the obstruction of the highway or assault or some other matter of that kind. Section 7 of the 1875 Act says:
      "Every person who, with a view to compel any other person to abstain from doing …"
      something he is entitled to do,
      "Uses violence to or intimidates such other person or his wife or children, or injures his property: or … Watches or besets the house or other place where such other person resides, or works, or carries on business, or happens to be, or the approach to such house or place…"
      is guilty of an offence. In order to show an offence under that provision, it would have to be shown that the person or persons were acting with a view to compelling another person to abstain from what he was entitled to do. They would be doing so if they were watching or besetting the place, the house or place where the person works or happens to be or happens to live.
      Mr. Fernyhough rose—
      The Solicitor-General: I must continue the explanation. The hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker)—
      Mr. Fernyhough rose—
      The Solicitor-General: I am half way through a section of the story and the right hon. Member must restrain himself. The hon. Member for Doncaster pointed out that there was an original proviso added to that Section in the 1875 Act and replaced by the proviso to Section 2 of the 1906 Act. The essence of those provisos was really to make it plain that attending at or near—a variety of places, but basically a place where somebody lives or works or happens to be—for the purpose of, in the words which appear in this Clause,
      "peacefully obtaining information … or peacefully communicating information"—
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      and this is in the 1906 Act—
      "or peacefully persuading him to work or not to work"
      is all right. The effect of those provisos in the 1875 and 1906 Acts and here is that in order to be found guilty of an offence it must be shown that one is watching or besetting with a view to prevailing upon a person in an intimidatory fashion; and they made it plain that there is a licence that people may attend upon a person outside his place of work or his home or any other place. It is in that context that we should look at this provision. All that we are opposing is a licence saying it is perfectly lawful for a group of people to post themselves outside somebody's home. It does not expose anyone—
      Mr. Loughlin: Why?
      The Solicitor-General: I will come to why in a moment. I want to make plain what we are doing. It does not in itself expose anyone to risk of prosecution, as hon. Members opposite have said. To qualify for that one must be acting with a view to compelling—watching, besetting. So that we say it is unnecessary and unattractive—and I will explain why in a moment—to give a clear licence for people to post themselves in this fashion, besetting the home—basically the home—or the place where somebody happens to live.
      Mr. John Mendelson: That is precisely what I was afraid of. This does not justify the Solicitor-General's first arrogant introductory remarks. If two people decide to go into the home or to stay outside, but in order to talk to the man to persuade him, that might be interpreted as besetting, and then they would fall under the Solicitor-General's Clause.
      The Solicitor-General: No. They would only begin to fall under the Clause—I will develop the argument—if in fact they were to post themselves and were there with a view to compel, watching or besetting the house.
      Mr. Loughlin: I gave examples.
      The Solicitor-General: There is something astonishing in a proposition for an express licence for posting outside somebody's home and conducting—[Interruption.] I will develop the argument and explain the points which were put to me.

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      The hon. Gentleman the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) asked what happens if the home is over a shop—if I may put it so simply—and other hon. Members put the same kind of example. The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), I think, gave a similar example, where the home is intermingled with a pithead or colliery workings. The answer is that if pickets attend at the place, that is, a shop or pithead, where the person works or carries on business, then under this Clause 121(1,a) they are expressly and plainly protected as they were under the 1875 Act or the 1906 Act.
      The only variation which is made by this Clause has been rightly identified by the hon. Members opposite who drafted this Amendment. That is the only position at which this blanket presumption in favour of posting no longer prevails—that is, the place where he resides.
      5.15 p.m.
      Mr. Loughlin: The hon. and learned Gentleman really must be as honest as he possibly can be. What this Amendment is seeking to do is to delete the words
      "not being a place where he resides"
      because one must read paragraphs (a) and (b) together, and the picket is caught on both legs here. I gave illustrations time and time again. That man is caught under this Bill; he comes under it.
      The Solicitor-General: No. If I may answer the point directly, without acknowledging the suggestion that I may be dealing with the Committee dishonestly—because I am certainly not—the provisions of this Clause are clear, and concern persons who
      "attend at or near a place where a person works or carries on business".
      If people attend at such a place, where a man works or carries on business, and do so only for the purposes set out under the previous Sections and this Bill that does not of itself constitute an offence.
      One comes to subsection (1,a) and (b) and the word is "or", and they may attend at any other place where a person happens to be, and the only restriction or qualification is that correctly identified by the hon. Member who drafted this Amendment, that is
      "not being a place where he resides".
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      The only place where the law is being altered is, if persons are outside that place where somebody resides but where he does not work. [Interruption.] It is clear if one looks at the wording. There is no possible room for doubt, and the wording of the Amendment is precisely directed to this.
      If one were to remove the words which this Amendment wants to remove we would be back to the 1906 Act, and this, and no more, is the narrow area of our discussion, whether there should be a presumption in favour of the legality of posting pickets at a place where a person lives.
      Mr. Sydney Bidwell: The hon. and learned Gentleman keeps using the word "posting". That is in his imagination. Nowhere does he really define what a picket is. If the picket takes his armband off and goes along to a fellow striker or fellow worker, is he or is he not a picket? I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman will answer, because I do not want to intervene again, and will deal with the situation where, as I said last night, even a strike committee might go along to try to persuade somebody to come back to work, perhaps to help with an emergency service. They might do that as well as seek to persuade him not to work. They might be outside the house saying, "Come to work". How does the right hon. and learned Gentleman explain that?
      The Solicitor-General: There is no change in the basic law save in just one respect. For, in order to qualify for consideration for the possibility of prosecution under the 1875 Act, one has to be shown to be watching or besetting with a view to compelling somebody—[Interruption.] And the offence arises only where one is watching or besetting with a view to compelling. There is no possibility of it in any of the circumstances which hon. Members have put to me. If somebody comes to my home, or to the home of any one of them, knocks at the door and says, "I would like to have a talk with you about what is going on at the works"—the pithead, or whatever it may be—" and explain that this is what was happening", he is not within a thousand miles of an offence under the 1875 Act. It is only if persons are assembled watching or besetting with a view to compel that the offence begins

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      to arise. This is so with the proviso in the 1875 Act and the proviso in the 1906 Act and the re-enacted proviso here. All we are saying is that this proviso should not prevail in respect of the home.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis (West Ham, North)rose—
      The Solicitor-General: I am sorry. I ought not to give way. I must proceed.
      Mr. Lewis: I can give examples—
      The Solicitor-General: I have been given a very large number of examples by hon. Members and I am trying to deal with them.
      It is now said that the provisions of the the 1906 Act had remained unchanged and nobody had seen any need of change at all. It is not so. The 1927 Act removed the home from the area of presumed legitimate picketing. The 1929–31 Labour Government introduced legislation to amend the 1927 Act—and one can look at that to see the areas which they thought it necessary to put right—and did not do so. That wlel-known, hardfaced, punitive Tory, Sir Stafford Cripps, who was then holding the office of Solicitor-General, introduced that Bill. One of the areas of the 1927 Act which the 1930 Bill not seek to change was the provision saying that the presumption of legitimacy in respect of picketing at the home should be removed. The situation was tolerated by that strange predecessor of mine in 1930. So we come back to the argument of principle.
      Are hon. Gentlemen opposite standing by some of the phrases used by them in support of the proposition that picketing at a person's home should have this blanket blessing conferred upon it?
      Mr. John Mendelson: Nobody said that. The Solicitor-General is putting words into our mouths.
      The Solicitor-General: I am wondering about that. Let us be clear, we are dealing with the presumed legitimacy of picketing at home. The hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker) said that we are "attacking the only weapon of trade unionism", we are placing "an onerous restriction upon it". We are attacking, so the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) said, "the basic philosophy of trade unionism".
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      The hon. Member for Southall (Mr. Bidwell) referred to "the foundation of good trade unionism". Is this really so? Is it to be said to the country that the proposition that the right to picket a person's home is at the heart of trade unionism?
      Mr. Orme: The Solicitor-General is using emotive phrases in answer to our case, but he has not yet given any evidence why the law should be changed. We are fearful that the change in the law proposed is the thin edge of the wedge for attacking the basis of picketing.
      The Solicitor-General: I will answer the hon. Gentleman in this way. As the nation and hon. Members will have seen with their own eyes on television on more than one occasion in recent months, there is something in the nature of picketing that is capable so easily of spilling over into abuse, intimidation and violence. I will quote to the Committee something which was written some time ago but which is still valid:
      "The truth is that picketing—however conducted—when it consists of watching or besetting the house, and it is to be observed that the statute places no limit to the number of persons attending for the purpose only of obtaining or communicating information or to the length of time during which such attendance may be maintained—is always and of necessity in the nature of an annoyance to the person picketed. As such, it must savour of compulsion. … It is obvious how easy it must be to pass from the language of persuasion into that of abuse, and from words of abuse to threats and acts of violence."
      All that is self-evident from what we have seen in incidents away from people's homes in recent months. The quotation comes, not from some stiff-backed hard-faced Tory but from the unanimous report of the Royal Commission which reported in 1905, one of the members of which, and one of the signatories of that paragraph, was that astonishing dragon of the trade union movement, Sidney Webb.
      Mr. Harold Walker: I do not want the Solicitor-General to misrepresent my speech of last evening by picking out selected quotations from it. Nothing in my speech either condoned or supported abuse, intimidation or violence in picketing. I was saying that the main weapon available to trade unionists was strike action and that picketing was one of the ancillaries which the trade union had

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      to support it. Anything which diminishes, in the way in which the Solicitor-General admits that this Clause diminishes, that right to picket must inevitably blunt the strike weapon.
      The Solicitor-General: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making the point with such clarity. The strike weapon is a weapon of trade unionism —certainly, clear. Picketing is a weapon of the organisation of a strike—certainly, clear. Many people outside the House could argue that the way in which the law at present operates to restrain that which people on all sides deplore, namely, the spill-over into violence represents that it is already inadequate. Many people have argued that we should go further than we are proposing and restrict in some way the right to picket. We are not doing so. We are not blunting in any respect the existing provisions of the law about picketing at the work place or at any other place. The only area in which by this Clause we are blunting the strike weapon is by asserting that the home of the man who dissents from the majority view shall not be a place which can presumptively be beset. That is all.
      Mr. John Mendelson: If the Solicitor-General is now arguing that many people have said that the existing provisions of the criminal law are not sufficient, he must produce evidence why the change is necessary. Donovan examined the evidence and said it was not.
      The Solicitor-General: One comes back to the simple point. I think it was the hon. Member for Salford, West who said that it requires great courage to participate in strike action. I have no doubt that in many circumstances it does, but equally it cannot be gainsaid that it requires great courage to dissent from that, whatever one's view about it. I think it was the right hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) who said that the philosophy is that those who are not for us are against us. Be that so; be that the argument which could be addressed to the non-conformist when he tries to go to and from his work; be that the argument that could be addressed to him in the street or in the supermarket, without restraint, but surely he too is entitled to cherish his little shred of courage in his own home, and it is
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      only about that that we are concerned here.
      Hon. Gentlemen opposite have repeatedly come back to this phrase. Either the trade union movement needs not this protection in respect of picketing a person's home, in which case there can be no possible objection to the Clause as it stands, or the trade union movement regards it as an illegitimate blunting of the strike weapon, which I suggest is an inadmissible argument.
      The provision legitimising picketing at a person's home is an unnecessary and unwarranted licence for intrusion into private domestic life, and I go along with the minority of the Donovan Commission, and so do my hon. Friends, in considering in such places it is quite unnecessary. The liberty to picket a person's home involves the risk of threats to his family which are quite unjustifiable and may cause much distress.
      When a clock strikes 13 times it casts grave doubt on the accuracy or adequacy of everything it has previously said. On this Amendment the Opposition have struck 13 times and have exposed the inadequacy of their arguments.
      5.30 p.m.
      Mr. Eric S. Heffer: The Solicitor-General was quite right to say that everyone in the Committee would wish to see respected the privacy of a person in his own home and that such a right should continue without hindrance or interference by anyone. It goes almost without saying. The idea that the Englishman's home is his castle applies equally to the working class as to the aristocracy. The right to privacy and protection in our own home is something we all hold extremely dear. Trade unionists accept this as much as anyone else.
      The hon. Gentleman suggested that the Opposition were making a great deal of this point and that in putting forward the Amendment they had made the clock strike 13 times. The hon and learned Gentleman and his hon. Friends must explain to the Committee why it is considered to be essential that the law should be changed and to tell us what proof they have. We have had many emotive speeches, with talk of violence, and so on, but nobody in this Committee has given any concrete evidence why this

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      Clause is necessary and why the Amendment ought not to be agreed.
      An Hon. Member: What about Pilkington?
      Mr. Heffer: I will deal with Pilkington on the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." Section 7.4 of the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act, 1875 deals with any person who, with a view to compelling any other person from doing any act,
      "Watches or besets the house or other place where such other person resides, or works, or carries on business, or happens to be, or the approach to such house or place".
      Therefore, anybody who indulges in that sort of conduct and tries to intimidate a person or his wife or children, or injures his property, can be caught by the Act, and indeed has always been caught since 1875. No doubt in order to protect the right of peaceful picketing the provision says that
      "Attending at or near the house or place where a person resides, or works, or carries on business, or happens to be, or the approach to such house or place, in order merely to obtain or communicate information shall not be deemed a watching or besetting within the meaning of this section."
      In other words, it was essential to put in those words so that anyone who was carrying out peaceful communication could not be caught by those provisions, it was necessary to make that absolutely clear.
      Those words were deleted in 1906 and were replaced by Section 2 of the 1906 Act which reads as follows:
      "It shall be lawful for one or more persons, acting on their own behalf or on behalf of a trade union or of an individual employer or firm in contemplation or furtherance of a trade dispute, to attend at or near a house or place where a person resides or works or carries on business or happens to be…
      Those words were clearly included so that there should be no doubt about picketing.
      The Solicitor-General asks why we are now suspicious and why we are making a great thing of this matter. He says, since there have been no abuses, why do we want these words to be eliminated. But the hon. and learned Gentleman has either deliberately not understood the position or has misinformed the Committee. We want the words in, because if taken out this will not only diminish
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      the right of picketing, but will also not take account of the practical realities of the situation. Certain realities were pointed out by my hon. Friends involving houses which are inside the confines of pit or dock premises. For example, if insurance agents go on strike, since they operate from their own homes how will the other insurance agents communicate with the workers who might decide to scab? How are they to do it except by peaceful communication with them at their homes?
      Another point hon. Gentlemen do not understand is that work in certain industries is farmed out to people's homes. How is communication to be carried out with those workers working in their own homes?
      Mr. Eadie: What about the cottage industries?
      Mr. Heffer: I do not mean only the cottage industries, but that is an example. There are other industries, in the Potteries and elsewhere, which are in the same situation. These are practical questions involving the situation where the place of work is also the place of residence. If because of this provision it is not possible to approach those workers at their place of residence, there is an argument as to whether it would be wrong to approach them.
      Mr. Tom King: I appreciate that the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West, (Mr. Loughlin) did not get the point, but I thought that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) had got it.
      Mr. Loughlin: Do not be arrogant.
      Mr. King: I meant no offence to the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West, but I appreciate his difficulty. It is clear that the only point which is excluded is the residence or place in which he resides. If it is also the place of work, it will be included in the subsection.
      Mr. Heffer: If I had the hon. Gentleman's absolute confidence that there would then be no legal argument in a court of law on this matter, I would cheerfully accept his point. But when the Solicitor-General, in a previous debate, was asked by one of his hon. Friends whether he could give an assurance that the words used by the Solicitor-General would be the same words uttered

      609
      by the judge concerned—I am paraphrasing but that was basically the point—the reply was that the Solicitor-General could not give that assurance; in other words, the judges and courts would decide. All sorts of judgments have arisen on the basis of law and have sought to interpret the law. We are worried when the provisions of a Measure are not clear and there can be argument about the interpretation of words. Why do hon. Members opposite wish these words to be taken out?
      I refer to the bible of apparently everybody in this debate—the Donovan Report. Everybody seems keen to quote the Donovan Report for his text. Paragraph 876 of the Report says:
      "The following members of the Commission, namely. Lord Donovan, Lord Robens, Dame Mary Green and Sir George Pollock consider however that picketing should not be allowed at a person's home where this is not also his place of work."
      They say that pickets "may cause … distress". They do not say that they would cause distress or that they have caused distress. Paragraph 887, which has been quoted from this side of the Committee but not from the benches opposite, states:
      "A majority of members consider that the Commission has had no evidence of abuse of the right to picket sufficient to justify such a restriction."
      If there has been no abuse and no evidence of abuse, why should the Solicitor-General wish to delete these words if it is not to restrict the right of workers to picket? It is the thin end of the wedge.
      We must be distrustful because of what the Solicitor-General said earlier. He said that the provision was removed from the Act in 1927 and that it was not put back by the minority Labour Government. There are arguments about whether there should ever have been a minority Labour Government. I have strong views about minority Labour Governments. They work even less well than some majority Labour Governments. When there was a majority Labour Government in 1946, this provision was reinstated because the trade union movement recognised it as essential and accepted that there was no abuse.
      I hope that we shall have a brief debate on the Question, That the Clause stand
      610
      part of the Bill, so that we can deal with other points about violence and picketing and the extravagant language used by many hon. Members opposite which was totally unjustified. I urge the Committee to accept this sensible and important Amendment. If the Government are not prepared to accept it, we shall divide on it.
      5.45 p.m.
      Mr. Hooson: This debate illustrates better than any of the other debates on the Bill the very revealing approach which the hon. Member for Birmingham, All Saints (Mr. Brian Walden) adopted in the remarkable speech which he made in the early stages of our deliberations.
      Although I entirely agree with the Solicitor-General about the Amendment and the justification for the Clause. I do not share his difficulty in appreciating the view expressed from this side of the Committee. As I understand it, the view of the Opposition is that the picketing of a man's home is distressing. Obviously it is to anybody who does not share the view of those taking part in the strike whose home is approached by a number of men. It is bound to be distressing. Because of it, a man often forsakes his own view and accepts the view of the group.
      The hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie), in a moving speech, described the hardship which inevitably results from a strike. The Opposition's view is that essentially this is a matter of group freedom and that, although distress may be caused to an individual if his home is picketed, he must bear it in the interests of the freedom of the group. That is basically the view put forward by this side of the Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon Members are like a picketing line at the moment, but they will not intimidate me.
      Mr. John Mendelson: Speak for yourself.
      Mr. Hooson: The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) said that the ability to picket a man's home was very much part of the freedom to picket. Many hon. Members on this side of the Committee have made that point. They say that this is a right or privilege which those concerned with the trade union movement are reluctant to give up.
      Mr. Ted Fletcher: They have had it for 65 years.
      Mr. Hooson: I realise that. The other side of the coin is that in all these arguments there is a balance between the rights of the group and the rights of the individual. We have reached the stage in our civilisation when the rights of the individual should be paramount.
      Mr. Dan Jones: Does not the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that in the circumstances which we are discussing a blackleg may be committing injury to the community?
      Mr. Hooson: I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman, but I do not agree with him.
      On this point the trade union movement reminds me of the Church of England in the eighteenth century. One could not enter a university or take a degree at Oxford or Cambridge or hold any of the higher offices of the land unless one was a communicant of the Church of England. This was a highly conservative approach and it is now rife throughout the trade union movement. As the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Ted Fletcher) said just now, as it has been a right for 65 years it must not be changed. What is that but excessive conservatism? The Opposition's approach is that whatever happens the trade union is the sacred cow of the realm: it must not be touched and its rights must not be infringed. Apparently, the individual can go to blazes and the rights of the group must be reflected in the trade union movement.
      Mr. Loughlin rose—
      Mr. Hooson: I have not the slightest doubt about the Amendment. I have had doubts on some matters, and sometimes I have shared the view of this side of the Committee.
      Mr. Ted Fletcher: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
      Mr. Fernyhough rose—
      Mr. Hooson: It is no use right hon. and hon. Members sitting round me trying to intimidate me. I intend to stick to my viewpoint.
      Mr. Fernyhough: I am trying to help the hon. and learned Gentleman.
      Mr. Hooson: I know what the right hon. Gentleman's help is like. However, I will give way to him.
      Mr. Fernyhough: The hon. and learned Gentleman has contended that, because we on this side of the Committee have taken this line, we are being very conservative. However, does he know the history of the trade union movement? Does he know the kind of Government who were responsible for the Tolpuddle Martyrs?
      Mr. Hooson: Yes, and that was a disgraceful episode. However, when Conservative Members in years gone by relied on history, they were rightly criticised by Liberals for doing so. By saying that the trade union movement has developed as it has because of past history and nothing should change, the Labour movement seems to be adopting the same approach as that which has been attacked so much in the past by those who share my creed.
      Whatever the value of picketing to a trade union involved in a strike, if one accepts that innocent people are bound to be hurt, as the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) had the guts to admit, clearly a civilised society can do without situations where men's liberty is infringed and their wives and children are forced to share their distress.
      Mr. Eadie: The hon. and learned Gentleman says that he has been picketed during his speech. He is a lawyer. Will lie agree that he has been peacefully picketed?
      Mr. Hooson: Certainly.
      Mr. Eadie: Then what is he complaining about?
      Mr. Hooson: I was not complaining. I was merely commenting. This happens to be not the place where I reside, and my wife and children are not here to appreciate the peaceful attempts by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen sitting round me.
      Another point which appeared on the face of it to have some substance was where a man's place of work and where he resides are so close together that it is impossible to disengage them. However, I remind the Committee that the word "or" separates paragraphs (a) and

      613
      (b). If one examines a given case and reaches the conclusion that it falls within paragraph (a), there is no need to consider paragraph (b) at all.
      I think that the Solicitor-General is right in his interpretation, and that the only substantive argument advanced in favour of the Amendment does not stand investigation. For that reason, I have no doubt the way in which I will vote on this matter. I am entirely against the Amendment.
      Mr. Harold Walker: The hon. and learned Gentleman has talked about the arguments which have been adduced. I hope that I do not do him any injustice, but I do not think that he was present to hear my speech last night when I moved the Amendment. It is as though he has come into court half way through a case. He has criticised the arguments which he has heard. However, none of them was advanced by me when I moved the Amendment. I wish that the hon. and learned Gentleman had read my speech before making his rather disparaging remarks.
      Mr. Hooson: I agree that I did not hear the hon. Gentleman's speech last night. I shall read it with interest. However, I have heard many of the speeches from this side of the Committee and, unless the hon. Gentleman disowns all of them, I have answered the arguments that I have heard.
      Mr. Kevin McNamara: It had been my intention to speak before we came to the Question, That the Clause stand part of the Bill. If it had not been for the arrogance of the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson), who came bowling into the Chamber and was fortunate enough to be called without having heard all the debate, I would not have delayed the Committee. But I was present during the whole of the debate last night and again today, hoping to be called.
      The hon. and learned Gentleman made some disparaging remarks about the arguments advanced by my hon. Friends, and he concluded his speech by supporting the interpretation of the Solicitor-General. Let me remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that, while the individual has a right in this kind of case, so has the individual striker. He has the right to
      614
      see that what he is protecting with his colleagues is individually as well as collectively protected.
      Then the hon. and learned Gentleman spoke as though the family of the non-striker, the scab or the blackleg—this mythical heroic figure going against the wishes of his fellow workers, I admit, with courage—needs protection. However, it should not be forgotten that the family of a non-striker is getting the full benefit of his wages. What about the families of the strikers?
      During the fish dock strike last year, men who scabbed got higher wages because of the inflated value of fish on the market. That is why they scabbed. It was greed, not courage, that made people go to work. That is what very often happens, and the hon. and learned Gentleman should realise it.
      I come then to the interpretation put on the Clause by the Solicitor-General, with which the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery agrees. The Solicitor-General did not deal with the case that I put forward last night, and we are entitled to an answer. The Clause refers
      to
      "… where a person works or carries on business …".
      How is that provision to be applied to the case where scabs are invited to a meeting place before they go to work? Often it is the only place where it is possible to get at scabs. A person is neither working nor carrying on business at such a place. It is merely where the group of scabs congregates before going to work. During the recent strike to which I referred just now, scabs came off vessels, immediately climbed aboard lorries and closed vans and disappeared in different directions all over the East Riding. The strikers had to follow them in order to find out who they were and to explain the position to them. The scabs could only be found at their homes. Employers told them to leave their homes and not go to their normal place of work but, instead, to go to, say, Scarborough or Bridlington and join a ship there. Where would strikers have been able to picket in those circumstances?
      Clearly the arguments put forward by the Solicitor-General and the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery are not good enough. They do not know what it is all about.
      Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 251, Noes 298.

      Division No. 196.

      AYES

      [5.59 p.m.

      Abse, Leo

      Forrester, John

      Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

      Albu, Austen

      Fraser, John (Norwood)

      Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

      Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

      Freeson, Reginald

      Marks, Kenneth

      Allen, Scholefield

      Galpern, Sir Myer

      Marquand, David

      Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

      Garrett, W. E.

      Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Gilbert, Dr. John

      Mayhew, Christopher

      Ashley, Jack

      Ginsburg, David

      Meacher, Michael

      Ashton, Joe

      Gourlay, Harry

      Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Atkinson, Norman

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Mendelson, John

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Barnes, Michael

      Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

      Millan, Bruce

      Barnett, Joel

      Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

      Miller, Dr. M. S.

      Beaney, Alan

      Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

      Milne, Edward (Blyth)

      Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

      Hamling, William

      Molloy, William

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Bishop, E. S.

      Hardy, Peter

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Harper, Joseph

      Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

      Boardman, H. (Leigh)

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Moyle, Roland

      Booth, Albert

      Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

      Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

      Hattersley, Roy

      Murray, Ronald King

      Bradley, Tom

      Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

      Ogden, Eric

      Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

      Heffer, Eric S.

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

      Hilton, W. S.

      O'Malley, Brian

      Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

      Horam, John

      Oram, Bert

      Buchan, Norman

      Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Orme, Stanley

      Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

      Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

      Oswald, Thomas

      Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

      Huckfield, Leslie

      Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Cant, R. B.

      Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

      Parker, John (Dagenham)

      Carmichael, Neil

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

      Hunter, Adam

      Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

      Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

      Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

      Pendry, Tom

      Clark, David (Colne Valley)

      Janner, Greville

      Pentland, Norman

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

      Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Perry, Ernest G.

      Cohen, Stanley

      Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

      Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

      Coleman, Donald

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Prescott, John

      Concannon, J. D.

      Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

      Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

      Conlan, Bernard

      John, Brynmor

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Corbet, Mrs. Freda

      Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

      Probert, Arthur

      Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

      Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

      Rankin, John

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

      Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

      Cronin, John

      Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

      Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

      Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Rhodes, Geoffrey

      Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

      Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Dalyell, Tam

      Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

      Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

      Darling, Rt. Hn. George

      Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

      Judd, Frank

      Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

      Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Kelley, Richard

      Roper, John

      Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Kerr, Russell

      Rose, Paul B.

      Davis, Clinton, (Hackney, C.)

      Kinnock, Neil

      Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

      Deakins, Eric

      Lambie, David

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyre)

      de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

      Latham, Arthur

      Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

      Delargy, H. J.

      Lawson, George

      Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

      Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Sillars, James

      Dempsey, James

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Silverman, Julius

      Doig, Peter

      Leonard, Dick

      Skinner, Dennis

      Dormand, J. D.

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Small, William

      Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

      Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

      Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Spearing, Nigel

      Driberg, Tom

      Lipton, Marcus

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Lomas, Kenneth

      Stallard, A. W.

      Dunn, James A.

      Loughlin, Charles

      Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

      Dunnett, Jack

      Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

      Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

      Eadle, Alex

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

      Stoddart, David (Swindon)

      Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

      Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

      Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

      Edwards, William (Merioneth)

      McBride, Neil

      Strang, Gavin

      Ellis, Tom

      McCartney, Hugh

      Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

      English, Michael

      McElhone, Frank

      Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

      Evans, Fred

      McGuire, Michael

      Swain, Thomas

      Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

      Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

      Mackie, John

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      Maclennan, Robert

      Tinn, James

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

      Tomney, Frank

      Foley, Maurice

      McNamara, J. Kevin

      Torney, Tom

      Foot, Michael

      MacPherson, Malcolm

      Tuck, Raphael

      Ford, Ben

      Urwin, T. W.

      Varley, Eric G.

      White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Wainwright, Edwin

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Whitlock, William

      Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

      Wallace, George

      Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Watkins, David

      Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Weitzman, David

      Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

      Mr. James Hamilton and

      Wellbeloved, James

      Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

      Mr. John Golding.

      Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

      NOES

      Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

      Emery, Peter

      Kilfedder, James

      Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

      Eyre, Reginald

      King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

      Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

      Farr, John

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Astor, John

      Fell, Anthony

      Kinsey, J. R.

      Atkins, Humphrey

      Fidler, Michael

      Kirk, Peter

      Awdry, Daniel

      Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

      Kitson, Timothy

      Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

      Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

      Knox, David

      Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Lambton, Antony

      Balniel, Lord

      Fortescue, Tim

      Lane, David

      Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      Fowler, Norman

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Batsford, Brian

      Fox, Marcus

      Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

      Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

      Fraser, Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Bell, Ronald

      Fry, Peter

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

      Gailbraith, Hn. T. G.

      Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

      Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

      Gardner, Edward

      Longden, Gilbert

      Benyon, W.

      Gibson-Watt, David

      Loveridge, John

      Berry, Hn. Anthony

      Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

      MacArthur, Ian

      Biffen, John

      Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

      McCrindle, R. A.

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Glyn, Dr. Alan

      McLaren, Martin

      Blaker, Peter

      Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

      Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

      Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

      Goodhart, Philip

      McMaster, Stanley

      Body, Richard

      Goodhew, Victor

      Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

      Boscawen, Robert

      Gorst, John

      McNair-Wilson, Michael

      Bossom, Sir Clive

      Gower, Raymond

      McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

      Bowden, Andrew

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

      Maddan, Martin

      Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

      Gray, Hamish

      Madel, David

      Braine, Bernard

      Green, Alan

      Maginnis, John E.

      Bray, Ronald

      Grieve, Percy

      Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

      Brewis, John

      Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

      Marten, Neil

      Brinton, Sir Tatton

      Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

      Mather, Carol

      Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

      Grylls, Michael

      Maude, Angus

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Gummer, Selwyn

      Mawby, Ray

      Bruce-Gardyne, J.

      Gurden, Harold

      Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

      Bryan, Paul

      Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

      Hall, John (Wycombe)

      Mills, Peter (Torrington)

      Buck, Antony

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

      Bullus, Sir Erie

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Burden, F. A.

      Hannam, John (Exeter)

      Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Harvey, Sir Arthur Vera

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Moate, Roger

      Carlisle, Mark

      Hastings, Stephen

      Molyneaux, James

      Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Havers, Michael

      Money, Ernie

      Channon, Paul

      Hay, John

      Monks, Mrs. Connie

      Chapman, Sydney

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Monro, Hector

      Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

      Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Chichester-Clark, R.

      Heseltine, Michael

      More, Jasper

      Churchill, W. S.

      Hicks, Robert

      Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

      Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Hiley, Joseph

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Cockeram, Eric

      Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

      Mudd, David

      Cooke, Robert

      Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

      Murton, Oscar

      Coombs, Derek

      Holland, Philip

      Nabarro, Sir Gerald

      Cooper, A. E.

      Holt, Miss Mary

      Neave, Airey

      Cormack, Patrick

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Nicholls, Sir Harmar

      Costain, A. P.

      Hordern, Peter

      Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

      Critchley, Julian

      Hornby, Richard

      Onslow, Cranley

      Crouch, David

      Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

      Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

      Curran, Charles

      Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

      Osborn, John

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

      Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

      Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

      Page, Graham (Crosby)

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

      Hunt, John

      Page, John (Harrow, W.)

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Pardoe, John

      Dean, Paul

      Iremonger, T. L.

      Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

      Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

      James, David

      Percival, Ian

      Digby, Simon Wingfield

      Jerkin, Patrick (Woodford)

      Pike, Miss Mervyn

      Dixon, Piers

      Jessel, Toby

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Dodds-Parker, Douglas

      Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

      Pounder, Rafton

      Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

      Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

      Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

      du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Jopling, Michael

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Eden, Sir John

      Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

      Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Proudfoot, Wilfred

      Elliot. Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

      Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

      Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

      Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

      Quennell, Miss J. M.

      618

      619

      Raison, Timothy

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

      Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

      Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

      Soref, Harold

      van. Straubenzee, W. R.

      Redmond, Robert

      Speed, Keith

      Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

      Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

      Spence, John

      Vickers, Dame Joan

      Rees, Peter (Dover)

      Stainton, Keith

      Waddington, David

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

      Steel, David

      Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

      Wall, Patrick

      Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

      Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

      Walters, Dennis

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Shoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

      Ward, Dame Irene

      Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

      Stokes, John

      Warren, Kenneth

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

      Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Sutcliffe, John

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Tapsell, Peter

      White, Roger (Gravesend)

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

      Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

      Rost, Peter

      Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Royle, Anthony

      Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

      Wilkinson, John

      Russell, Sir Ronald

      Tebbit, Norman

      Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Temple, John M.

      Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

      Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

      Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

      Woodnutt, Mark

      Scott, Nicholas

      Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

      Worsley, Marcus

      Scott-Hopkins, James

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

      Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

      Sharples, Richard

      Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

      Younger, Hn. George

      Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

      Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

      Shelton, William (Clapham)

      Tilney, John

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Simeons, Charles

      Trafford, Dr. Anthony

      Mr. Paul Hawkins and

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Trew, Peter

      Mr. Walter Clegg.

      Mr. John Fraser Mr. John Fraser: I beg to move Amendment No. 874, in page 84, line 3, leave out 'of itself'.
      The Deputy Chairman: It would beconvenient if we also discussed Amendment No. 875, in line 8, leave out 'of itself'.
      Mr. Fraser: In replying to the last Amendment the Solicitor-General said that there was nothing in the Bill, apart from the picketing of a person's home, which blunted the strike weapon or the right to picket. This Amendment seeks to explore what we on this side of the Committee suspect will be a considerable blunting of the right to picket. To understand the significance of the Amendment and the wording of the Clause we have to examine the history of the words "picketing" and "persuasion", starting with Section 2(1) of the 1906 Act. The wording there is:
      "It shall be lawful for one or more persons, acting on their own behalf or on behalf of a trade union or of an individual employer or firm in contemplation or furtherance of a trade dispute, to attend at or near a house or place where a person resides or works …".
      The wording "it shall be lawful" gives an imprimatur of legality to the act of picketing. The 1906 Act, including Section 2(1), would be repealed by this Bill, and, therefore, we do not have the words "it shall be lawful". There is there a clear and unequivocal statement of legality which has been taken out.
      We then have to go back to Section 7 of the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act, 1875, which says:
      620
      "Every person who, with a view to compel any other person to abstain from doing or to do any act which such other person has a legal right to do or abstain from doing, wrongfully and without legal authority,—
      4. watches or besets the house or other place where such other person resides, or works, or carries on business, or happens to be, or the approach to such house or place …shall, on conviction … by a court of summary jurisdiction or on indictment … be liable to pay a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds, or to be imprisoned for a term not exceeding three months, with or without hard labour."
      The reason why the declaration of legality was put in the 1906 Act was it could be construed, if one were construing only Section 7 of the 1875 Act, that the act of persuasion was also with a view to compelling someone. The words
      "with a view to compel"
      are wide and difficult to interpret, and the act of persuasion in itself could be construed by a court as an act of compulsion.
      We are thrown back, having got rid of the 1906 wording, on the 1875 Act, as varied by the Bill. What is significant about the wording of Clause 121(2) is that it does not reproduce these words "it shall be lawful". It plays about with the wording. Why is this other word used when instances are given in which picketing can take place? Then, it says that it
      "shall not of itself constitute an offence"
      and:
      "shall not of itself constitute a tort."

      621
      6.15 p.m.
      The words "of itself" can have only one interpretation. What they mean is that, while it shall not of itself constitute an offence or a tort if there is something else present, then it could constitute an offence and a tort. How else can we interpret it? Clause 121 talks about peaceful persuasion, peaceful communicating. How else can something which is peaceful become a tort or an offence? There must be some other ingredient which can be added to the act of picketing and peaceful persuasion making it in some way or other unlawful. There must be some circumstances where the trade union application of peaceful persuasion can constitute an offence.
      We have to try to find the catalyst, the hidden ingredient, which turns the act of peaceful persuasion into a tort or an offence. I suggest that that catalyst is the strike which is an unfair industrial practice. There is no doubt that any unfair industrial practice is an unlawful act in the civil sense of the word. It is not criminal but it is certainly unlawful. If the Bill becomes law it is something which is against the law and which gives rise to a claim for damages or compensation and to an injunction.
      It could be the element of illegality which, added to the act of picketing, could make the matter into an offence. I suggested yesterday that someone who conspires to organise a strike which is an unfair industrial practice could be committing a tort. That might seem a farfetched proposition but in suggesting that I have the support of the Solicitor-General, who, in winding up the debate on Clause 117 yesterday, said:
      "The provisions of Clause 117 are designed for two purposes. They are designed to meet the point the hon. Gentleman has in mind, namely the possibility of new torts being invented in an Industrial relations situation."
      I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman accepted there the possibility of a new tort being created. He went on:
      "If a new tort begins to be invented in relation to an industrial relations matter, we are not in favour of encouraging that kind of invention or growth when it can be dealt with in the context of the National Industrial Relations Court …".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd February, 1971; Vol. 812, c. 432.]
      The point that the hon. and learned Gentleman accepted is that new kinds of illegal act can be created and there could be, in the context of this Amendment, a
      622
      new tort of conspiracy to incite or induce an unfair industrial practice which takes place when someone persuades another person to stay away from work when the strike in which he is being persuaded to take part is of itself an unfair industrial practice. Otherwise, I do not see why he should change the wording in the 1906 Act and use this particularly limited form of words and say that only in certain circumstances shall it not of itself constitute an offence or a tort.
      If the Committee accepts this, then it must support the Amendment. There is a whole serious of unfair industrial practices which might constitute a form of illegality which would then make picketing unlawful. The Committee must understand how far this goes. For instance, in some circumstances it is an unfair industrial practice in support of an unfair industrial dispute to persuade someone to come out on strike. When we look at the definition of "strike" in Clause 148, it is a concerted stoppage of work. There could be a situation when people are acting unlawfully, when they come out on strike and generally break their contracts of employment. If all give notice to end their contracts of employment, up to now that has not been considered unlawful. It has not even been considered to be in breach of agreement because the notice required under the terms of the agreement had been given.
      Under the terms of the Bill that is still a strike which could be unlawful in certain circumstances, even though the people are doing something perfectly lawful in itself. We get to the stage when in the course of picketing to use persuasion which is of itself peaceful to do something which is of itself lawful could nevertheless be an offence or tort because of the wording and the inclusion of the words "of itself" in this subsection.
      The Solicitor-General owes the Committee a thorough explanation of the reasons why these words appear in this form and why the words "it shall be lawful" are not reproduced from the 1906 Act. If he is not able to give us that explanation, the words "of itself" could be a detonator inside this legislation which could spark off a legal minefield. Secondly, the hon. and learned Gentleman must give a clear assertion

      623
      to the Committee that picketing in support of what he terms an unfair industrial practice will in future be completely lawful and will not be in any way impinged upon by the residual legislation from the 1875 Act which still remains in effect, in a slightly changed form, under the terms of the Clause.
      The Solicitor-General: I will deal, first, with the form of words about which the Member for Norwood (Mr. John Fraser) spoke. The provisions of the 1906 Act are reproduced here, with the exception concerning the picketing of a person's home, with which the Committee has dealt. As the hon. Gentleman rightly pointed out, there is a variation from the earlier wording of "it shall be lawful" to "it shall not of itself".
      The object of this change in relation to subsection (2)(a), which is concerned only with the 1875 Act, is to preserve the effect of the 1875 Act but over the smaller area; in other words, as under the 1875 Act the appearance of pickets under Clause 121(1) is in no way capable of amounting to an offence under that Act, there is no change whatever in that provision.
      As for the reference to the law of tort, I take the example which was given by the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars) when we discussed the last Amendment. He cited the case of a picket who shouted the word "quisling" at somebody who was strike-breaking or leading a group of strike-breakers.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: Might he not shout "Conservative"?
      The Solicitor-General: To take the hon. Gentleman's example, a picket might shout "Conservative" at a strike-breaker—no doubt because, in the view of the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis), there are some areas of the country where it might be considered defamatory so to describe a person. A person so described would be misguided to seek to bring an action and would be unlikely to have his claim sustained by a jury. However, the hon. Gentleman can advance that argument.
      The mere presence of the people constituting a picket line for the purpose of peacefully persuading others would not of itself constitute a tort, but one cannot
      624
      exclude the possibility that a person so described might want to commence proceedings for slander. He would not get much damages if he won. He would certainly not get legal aid to proceed or be advised to bring such an action.
      However, there might be a substantial situation when there has been, say, an assault and the person there involved might wish to bring civil proceedings for assault. All of those things would go beyond the presence of a picket under Clause 121(1) and would constitute a separate ground for bringing proceedings in tort. The words "of itself" in subsection (2)(b) are designed to make it plain that if somebody goes beyond what has been permitted, then he is back with the ordinary law of the land. The purpose of subsection (2) in its entirety is to reproduce in the ordinary courts the position as it prevailed up to the passing of this Measure.
      The hon. Member for Norwood harked back to the debate which took place last night on Clause 117 and suggested that there might be here the grounds of some new formulation of a new tort of conspiracy. The subsection as it stands makes plain that the presence of pickets in the conventional way cannot of itself constitute a tort. It is, therefore, difficult to see how a conspiracy to post such pickets could be a conspiracy to fulfil a lawful purpose by an unlawful means, and so be a fresh tort.
      However, even if it were sought to bring that complaint in the ordinary courts, by Clauses 117 or 118 it would not be possible to proceed with it in the ordinary courts. There are, therefore, double checks to the establishment of a new conspiratorial tort of picket-posting, if I may put it that way.
      Mr. Eadie: The hon. and learned Gentleman refers to picket-posting and asks permission to describe it as such. Is he aware that the words he uses must be interpreted by people outside the Committee and that they may eventually mean something in a court of law? Does a picket cease to be a picket if he is not posted? Must he wear a distinguishing mark when he is posted? If not, will he be considered to be a fellow worker or trade union official?
      What will happen if he seeks to persuade others to strike, not necessarily

      625
      at their place of work but perhaps on his way to work or elsewhere, remembering that his exclusion depends on a narrow form of words and that previous legislation has not defined what a picket is? One has visions of people being posted to do certain tasks in a regimental way, but things do not happen quite in that manner and we would like the hon. and learned Gentleman to explain when a picket is not a picket?
      The Solicitor-General: I am not using the word in a mystical sense as a term of art. The hon. Member for Norwood raised this point in this context and I borrowed the phrase from him.
      Aside from the 1875 Act and the law of tort, in the context of this Measure we have a number of Clauses in which it is made plain that the organisation for or inducing of an unfair industrial action is something in respect of which a remedy will be available. If as part of the organisation for or inducing of an unfair strike or industrial action it can be shown that somebody has posted—and I use the word in that sense here—people with the intention that they should be his instrument for bringing about that unfair industrial practice or action, then that would be part of the evidence that could be brought against the person organising their presence.
      This could arise in a variety of ways, and the provisons of the Bill apply right across the board in respect of the unfair practices which we have identified, but they do not change the ordinary law so far as it applies outside. That is the intention.
      Mr. John Fraser: The hon. and learned Gentleman is explaining that there are circumstances in which picketing could be part of an unfair industrial practice—as part of the process of inducing a strike —and that it could, therefore, lead to the apprehension of people and their appearance before the National Industrial Relations Court because picketing would be
      evidence of the fact that they had induced the strike.
      If that is the hon. and learned Gentleman's argument, then is he aware that he lets in the criminal sanctions contained in the 1875 Act, for it could be argued that they were acting wrongfully under the terms of the opening words of Section 7 of that Act? In those circumstances, they would be open to civil proceedings in the National Industrial Relations Court and to criminal proceedings as well because they would be acting wrongfully under the 1875 Act.
      The Solicitor-General: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman asked that question because it takes us back to Section 7 of the 1875 Act, which refers to:
      "Every person who, with a view to compel any other person to abstain from doing or to do"
      something. In other words, he must do it with a view to compelling, and there is no question of any presence of a picket infringing the 1875 Act.
      For the reasons I have explained, the provisions originally contained in Section 7, transferred to the 1906 Act and carried over to this Measure, mean that the presence of a picket everywhere except at somebody's home places that presence in exactly the same state, from the point of view of the 1875 Act, as it always would have been. In other words, that presence cannot of itself constitute an offence under that Act.
      It would be necessary, as always, to show that the person was acting with a view to compel, in one or other of the prescribed ways, and here we have the question of using violence, intimidation and so on. There can, therefore, be no change in the provisions of the 1875 Act or in the ordinary law of tort, and I invite the Committee to conclude that the Amendment is not necessary and would not improve the Bill.
      Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 250, Noes 299.

      Division No. 197.]

      AYES

      [6.29 p.m.

      Abse, Leo

      Ashton, Joe

      Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

      Albu, Austen

      Atkinson, Norman

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Bishop, E. S.

      Allen, Scholefield

      Barnes, Michael

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

      Barnett, Joel

      Boardman, H. (Leigh)

      Ashley, Jack

      Beaney, Alan

      Booth, Albert

      Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

      Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Bradley, Tom

      Heffer, Eric S.

      O'Malley, Brian

      Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

      Hilton, W. S.

      Oram, Bert

      Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

      Horam, John

      Orme, Stanley

      Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

      Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Oswald, Thomas

      Buchan, Norman

      Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

      Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

      Huckfield, Leslie

      Paget, R. T.

      Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

      Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

      Parker, John (Dagenham)

      Cant, R. B.

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Carmichael, Neil

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

      Hunter, Adam

      Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

      Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

      Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(EdgeHill)

      Pendry, Tom

      Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

      Janner, Greville

      Pentland, Norman

      Clark, David (Colne Valley)

      Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Perry, Ernest G.

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

      Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

      Prentice, Rt. Hn. Re

      Cohen, Stanley

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Prescott, John

      Concannon, J. D.

      Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

      Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

      Corbet, Mrs. Freda

      John, Brynmor

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C)

      Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

      Probert, Arthur

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

      Rankin, John

      Cronin, John

      Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

      Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

      Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

      Rhodes, Geoffrey

      Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Dalyell, Tam

      Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

      Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

      Darling, Rt. Hn. George

      Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

      Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

      Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&Radnor)

      Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

      Judd, Frank

      Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Roper, John

      Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Kelley, Richard

      Rose, Paul B.

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

      Kerr, Russell

      Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

      Deakins, Eric

      Kinnock, Neil

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

      de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

      Lambie, David

      Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

      Delargy, H. J.

      Latham, Arthur

      Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

      Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

      Lawson, George

      Sillars, James

      Dempsey,James

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Silverman, Julius

      Doig, Peter

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Skinner, Dennis

      Dormand, J. D.

      Leonard, Dick

      Small, William

      Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

      Spearing, Nigel

      Driberg, Tom

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Lipton, Marcus

      Stallard, A. W.

      Dunn, James A.

      Lomas, Kenneth

      Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

      Dunnett, Jack

      Loughlin, Charles

      Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

      Eadie, Alex

      Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

      Stoddart, David (Swindon)

      Edwards, Robert (Bilton)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

      Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

      Edwards, William (Merioneth)

      Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

      Strang, Gavin

      Ellis, Tom

      McBride, Neil

      Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

      English, Michael

      McCartney, Hugh

      Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

      Evans, Fred

      McElhone, Frank

      Swain, Thomas

      Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

      McGuire, Michael

      Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)

      Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,LadyWood)

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

      Mackie, John

      Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Tinn, James

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Maclennan, Robert

      Tomney, Frank

      Foley, Maurice

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

      Torney, Tom

      Foot, Michael

      McNamara, J. Kevin

      Tuck, Raphael

      Ford, Ben

      MacPherson, Malcolm

      Urwin, T. W.

      Forrester, John

      Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

      Varley, Eric G.

      Fraser, John (Norwood)

      Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

      Wainwright, Edwin

      Freeson, Reginald

      Marks, Kenneth

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Galpern, Sir Myer

      Marquand, David

      Wallace, George

      Garrett, W. E.

      Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

      Watkins, David

      Gilbert, Dr. John

      Mayhew, Christopher

      Weitzman, David

      Ginsburg, David

      Meacher, Michael

      Wellbeloved, James

      Golding, John

      Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

      Gourlay, Harry

      Mendelson, John

      White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

      Millan, Bruce

      Whitlock, William

      Griffiths, Eadie (Brightside)

      Miller, Dr. M. S.

      Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

      Milne, Edward (Blyth)

      Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Molloy, William

      Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

      Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

      Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Hamling, William

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

      Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

      Hardy, Peter

      Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

      Harper, Joseph

      Moyle, Roland

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Mr Ernest Armstrong and

      Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

      Murray, Ronald King

      Mr. Donald Coleman.

      Hattersley, Roy

      Ogden, Eric

      NOES

      Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

      Astor, John

      Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

      Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

      Atkins, Humphrey

      Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

      Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

      Awdry, Daniel

      Balniel, Lord

      628

      629

      Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

      Mather, Carol

      Batsford, Brian

      Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

      Maude, Angus

      Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

      Glyn, Dr. Alan

      Mawby, Ray

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

      Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

      Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

      Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

      Goodhart, Philip

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Benyon, W.

      Goodhew, Victor

      Mills, Peter (Torrington)

      Berry, Hn. Anthony

      Gorst, John

      Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

      Biffen, John

      Gower, Raymond

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

      Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberd'nshire,W.)

      Blaker, Peter

      Gray, Hamish

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

      Green, Alan

      Moate, Roger

      Body, Richard

      Grieve, Percy

      Molyneaux, James

      Boscawen, Robert

      Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

      Money, Ernie

      Bossom, Sir Clive

      Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

      Monks, Mrs. Connie

      Bowden, Andrew

      Grylls, Michael

      Monro, Hector

      Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

      Gummer, Selwyn

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Braine, Bernard

      Gurden, Harold

      More, Jasper

      Bray, Ronald

      Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

      Morgan, Ceraint (Denbigh)

      Brewis, John

      Hall, John (Wycombe)

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

      Brinton, Sir Tatton

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Mudd, David

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Hannam, John (Exeter)

      Murton, Oscar

      Bruce-Gardyne J.

      Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

      Nabarro, Sir Gerald

      Bryan, Paul

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Neave, Airey

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

      Hastings, Stephen

      Nicholls, Sir Harmar

      Buck, Antony

      Havers, Michael

      Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

      Bullus, Sir Eric

      Hay, John

      Onslow, Cranley

      Burden, F. A.

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Osborn, John

      Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

      Heseltine, Michael

      Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

      Carlisle, Mark

      Hicks, Robert

      Page, Graham (Crosby)

      Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Page, John (Harrow, W.)

      Cary, Sir Robert

      Hiley, Joseph

      Pardoe, John

      Channon, Paul

      Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

      Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

      Chapman, Sydney

      Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

      Percival, Ian

      Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

      Holland, Philip

      Pike, Miss Mervyn

      Chichester-Clark, R.

      Holt, Miss Mary

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Churchill, W. S.

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Pounder, Rafton

      Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

      Hordern, Peter

      Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Hornby, Richard

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Cockeram, Eric

      Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

      Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

      Cooke, Robert

      Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

      Proudfoot, Wilfred

      Coombs, Derek

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

      Cooper, A. E.

      Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

      Quennell, Miss J. M.

      Cordle, John

      Hunt, John

      Raison, Timothy

      Cormack, Patrick

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

      Costain, A. P.

      Iremonger, T. L.

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

      Critchley, Julian

      James, David

      Redmond, Robert

      Crouch, David

      Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

      Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

      Crowder, F. P.

      Jessel, Toby

      Rees, Peter (Dover)

      Curran, Charles

      Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Jopling, Michael

      Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

      Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

      Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

      Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Dean, Paul

      Kilfedder, James

      Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

      Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

      King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

      Digby, Simon Wingfield

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Dixon, Piers

      Kinsey, J. R.

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Dodds-Parker, Douglas

      Kirk, Peter

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

      Kitson, Timothy

      Rost, Peter

      du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Knox, David

      Russell, Sir Ronald

      Eden, Sir John

      Lambton, Antony

      St. John-Stevan, Norman

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Lane, David

      Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

      Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Scott, Nicholas

      Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Scott-Hopkins, James

      Emery, Peter

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Sharples, Richard

      Eyre, Reginald

      Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

      Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

      Farr, John

      Longden, Gilbert

      Shelton, William (Clapham)

      Fell, Anthony

      Loveridge, John

      Simeons, Charles

      Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

      MacArthur, Ian

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Fidler, Michael

      McCrindle, R. A.

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

      McLaren, Martin

      Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

      Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

      Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

      Soref, Harold

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      McMaster, Stanley

      Speed, Keith

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

      Spence, John

      Fortescue, Tim

      McNair-Wilson, Michael

      Stainton, Keith

      Fowler, Norman

      McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Fox, Marcus

      Maddan, Martin

      Steel, David

      Fraser,Rt.Hn.H ugh (St'fford & Stone)

      Madel, David

      Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

      Fry, Peter

      Maginnis, John E.

      Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

      Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

      Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

      Stoddart-Scott Col. Sir M.

      Gardner, Edward

      Marten, Neil

      Stokes, John

      Gibson-Watt, David

      Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

      Sutcliffe, John

      630

      631

      Tapsell, Peter

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      White, Roger (Gravesend)

      Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

      Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

      Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

      Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)

      van Straubenzee, W. R.

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

      Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

      Wilkinson, John

      Tebbit, Norman

      Vickers, Dame Joan

      Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

      Temple, John M.

      Waddington, David

      Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

      Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Woodnutt, Mark

      Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

      Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

      Worsley, Marcus

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

      Wall, Patrick

      Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

      Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

      Walters, Dennis

      Younger, Hn. George

      Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

      Ward, Dame Irene

      Tilney, John

      Warren, Kenneth

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Trafford, Dr. Anthony

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Mr. Paul Hawkins and

      Trew, Peter

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Mr. Walter Clegg.

      [Mr. BRYANT GODMAN IRVINE in the Chair]
      Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
      Mr. Heffer: We oppose the Clause because it will lead to a limitation of the right to picket. The Bill will take away certain rights which have been regarded as rights, at any rate by the trade union movement, and it will put us back into the pre-1875 position.
      During the debates on the Amendments to the Clause one or two hon. Members opposite painted a picture of violence and intimidation which bore no relation to the facts. Violence has occurred in disputes and as a result of picketing. I quote from the report of Chief Superintendent A. E. Clark, of the Liverpool Police, who was delegated to inquire into the complaints regarding the ill-treatment of certain pickets by the Stockport police during the Roberts Arundel strike:
      "I do not consider that the relative responsibilities of the three officers allegedly concerned in this assault can be separated and I would submit that they have a case to answer for 'assault occasioning actual bodily harm'."
      The position arising from that report was that the three victims of the police assault were paid damages by the police. Allen received £1,322 for a spinal injury and a broken nose. Heywood got £583 for a broken nose and a battered face. Cook got £375 for a broken nose, body injuries and subsequent mental anxiety.
      I do not want to make a great point of this. I merely point out that violence emerges, and it has emerged, unfortunately, on both sides—or on three sides, if one can put it that way—in industrial disputes.
      The Opposition are totally opposed to violence emerging from any quarter in picketing. We are opposed to the concept of violence. We have always be
      632
      lieved, as the trade union movement believes, that one must be able peacefully to picket to persuade one's fellow workers.
      We have been told that there was a great deal of violence at Pilkingtons. I want to quote from the book "Strike at Pilkingtons" by two academics from Liverpool University—Tony Lane and Kenneth Roberts. They analysed the Press reports which arose from the Pilkington dispute and gave two or three examples:
      "…the Financial Times gave a fuller report, but it could not have been said on this occasion that the Mirror was sober. Its story was not, strictly speaking, inaccurate for there were as a matter of fact several scuffles but the impression was nevertheless created that there was fighting on a large scale. Sentences such as 'Police reinforcements were rushed in as violence flared' suggested a sense of urgency and confrontations of some magnitude—a sense that the situation could not have justified."
      Hon. Members who speak about violence in disputes and violence as a result of picketing accept what a large body of the Press writes: a sober study of the evidence shows that there is little in the allegation.
      6.45 p.m.
      The authors say on page 171 of "Strike at Pilkingtons":
      "Relationships with the police and the Pilkington security men seemed to have been amicable when things were quiet; they talked and drank tea with the pickets. No doubt the odd bobby was grateful for the warmth of a brazier on a cold night and a bit of company to relieve the tedium of the night patrol."
      That puts the matter into perspective. Allegations of constant violence in disputes are not borne out by the facts. The facts are that the British working class and trade union movement is a very responsible and peacefully organised movement, and violence is alien to the concept of the movement. When, unfortunately, there has been trouble, it has usually arisen when scabs and blacklegs have been protected by the police. It is

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      at the stage when people are trying to go against the democratic decision of the workers that there have been inflamed actions on the part of some workers and then often on the part of the police as well.
      We do not accept the contention that there is great violence in the trade union movement. We oppose the Clause because it is a limitation of the rights of picketing. It holds further dangers. Anyone distributing leaflets and issuing a call for attendance at a meeting could be held to be acting contrary to the Clause.
      The evil thought creeps into my mind that there are people who would suggest that the scope of the Clause should be extended and that perhaps political canvassing should be covered at some stage. Hon. Members opposite always say that we exaggerate and that we see more in these Clauses than is there. I wish that I did not have the distrust of right hon. and hon. Members opposite that I have. Bitter experience of the activities of the Tory Party leads my right hon. Friends and myself to the conclusion that in order to preserve and extend our democracy we must be constantly vigilant. It is important that in our bid to extend our democratic rights we oppose Clauses of this nature which take away part of the democratic rights which have been with us since before 1875. Those rights are now being limited and we are being put back into the pre-1875 position.
      Mr. Ray Mawby: The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) made a good case for retaining something which has been with us for a very long time, on the basis that if we have had it for long enough there is no reason to change it. That is a rather Luddite attitude because, look as I may at the Clause, I cannot tie it up with most of the hon. Gentleman's speech.
      In the debates on the Amendments to the Clause it was suggested that the Clause would prevent the normal activities that have been carried on and that are still carried on by those who are in dispute with their employers. There has been a great deal of argument about this. Hon. Members opposite have challenged the allegation that violence has occurred. Hon. Members opposite have always stated that there is no
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      evidence that violence has occurred. All I can say is that in my constituency there has been sufficient evidence to show that violence has occurred and that cars have been wrecked and men's wives threatened with having acid thrown in their faces.
      Mr. McNamara: Will the hon. Member give way?
      Mr. Mawby: I have only just started, but I will give way to the hon. Member.
      Mr. McNamara: The hon. Member has just said that he has evidence of a number of very serious crimes that have been threatened against individuals in his constituency. Can he produce the names of the people concerned, the occasions, the places—evidence of both threats and action that the police have taken, and of reports that have been made? It is important that the Committee should be able to evaluate what the hon. Member is saying.
      Mr. Mawby: The hon. Gentleman obviously does not expect me to have all these facts in my possession at this moment—
      Mr. J.D. Concannon: Oh, yes.
      Mr. Mawby: All I can say is that the complaints were registered with the local police, who have all the information concerning these matters.
      Mrs. Barbara Castle: Have the police taken proceedings? They should have done.
      Mr. Mawby: The police have not taken proceedings. [Interruption.] Whether hon. Members opposite think that it is up to me to decide whether or not the police should institute proceedings is another matter. All I am doing is to put the facts before the House.
      Mr. Concannon: They are not facts.
      Mr. Mawby: I was going on to say—if hon. Members opposite had allowed me to do so—that these things happen.
      Mr. Ted Fletcher rose—
      Mr. Mawby: May I say six words in a row before there is an intervention? I am saying that neither I nor any other sensible person would have been prepared to say that all those cases provided definite evidence of the activities of

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      bona fide trade unionists pursuing their objectives. There will always be the person who commits violence acts or makes threats but who is not connected with the dispute. All I am saying is that there is the danger that violence will occur.
      The Clause gives reasonable rights to the majority; it is, those who decide that there is a dispute and go on strike, and want to make certain that those who carry on working will be given the reasons for the dispute and be asked to join or rejoin their colleagues who have stopped work. Nothing in the Clause prevents the normal, orderly procedure of a group of people in dispute notifying their colleagues of the reason for that dispute, and trying to obtain their support.
      Until now we have been talking as if all strikes were brought about by the officials of a union saying, "We are in difficulties. We are going out on strike. This is an official strike which has the majority of our members behind it." We are not talking about those strikes. The majority of strikes that take place are brought about by relatively small groups of people, often against the advice of their own trade unions. They come out on an unofficial basis. The men who are still at work are not scabs or blacklegs; they can legitimately say that they are following the advice of their trade union executive.
      No hon. Member opposite can tell me that occasions do not arise when, although the union executive says, "There is no reason for this strike, because of this, that and the other. Therefore we are not recommending our members to come out on strike," a group of people come out on unofficial strike. Those who remain at work in those circumstances are probably better trade unionists than the men on strike, but hon. Members opposite suggest that we should perpetuate the system in which those on strike can intimidate the ones who remain at work following the advice of the trade union executive.
      Mr. Harold Walker: The hon. Member referred to a dispute that occurred in his constituency. He would not mention the name of the company concerned, but I believe that he was referring to the
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      Centrax dispute. He made some hard and constructive efforts to bring about a peaceful solution to that strike. Am I right in thinking that that is the strike to which he referred?
      Mr. Mawby indicated dissent.
      Mr. Walker: Was not that dispute essentially concerned with the refusal of the employer to recognise the trade union?
      Mr. Mawby: Several issues were involved, but when that dispute occurred the three main unions, the E.T.U., the Transport and General Workers' Union and the A.E.F.—now the A.E.U.—were all recognised for negotiating purposes by the local management. Basically it was not a strike to obtain recognition. The strikers did not think that the management was prepared to give them sufficient recognition, but the district officials of the unions concerned were recognised, and negotiated from time to time.
      Apart from that fact, the important point is that a man who had no intention of being either a scab or a blackleg could be intimidated. A group of his fellow workers might have gone on strike contrary to the union's advice, and might be taking steps to make certain that their fellow workers also came out on strike.
      If the whole future of the trade union movement relies on that sort of intimidation many people will ask whether the movement is worth saving anyway. We therefore come back to the fundamentals. The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) put his finger right on the point when he referred to the need to preserve a balance—to make certain that the majority has its rights but that at no time shall it have such rights as to allow it to intimidate not only a man but also his wife and family.
      Basically, the Clause is necessary. Right hon. and hon. Members opposite may say that under other parts of the Bill there will probably not be the same incidence of unofficial strikes and that as the problem grows less there is less need for this Clause. If that be so, all we are doing here is jamming the sandwich a little too much, but it will be none the worse for that. I regard the Clause as essential because it lays down that the ordinary individual in his home with his

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      family shall not be liable to intimidation by any body of people, whoever they may be.
      7.0 p.m.
      Mr. McNamara: The Clause does not say that. Even on the Solicitor-General's interpretation of it, with which the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) agreed, if a worker resides at his work place or his usual place of business, and that is the place to be picketed, the protection which is so dear to the hon. Gentleman does not apply. So there is a lack of consistency there.
      Mr. Mawby: The hon. Gentleman has done his usual hair-splitting act. If a person resides at his place of work, then, as the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery pointed out, it is a case of "either/or", and in such circumstances it would be regarded as a place of work rather than a place of residence. It would take a Solomon to draft a Clause to cover the case of a person living above the shop, which the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) suggested. But, in the nature of things, we cannot, unfortunately, cover absolutely everything. If it is a man's place of work, obviously the balance comes back again because one returns to the point that those who are in dispute with their employer ought to be able peacefully to picket at the place of work and so convey information to those who are not on strike and do whatever they can in a peaceful fashion.
      The problem of the person who happens to live at his place of work is, I suggest, highly marginal. Those who choose not to do that but to live in their own homes, having their family around them, believe that they have a right, for example, if someone wants to call and sell them encyclopaedias, to show him the gate and say, "I shall set the dog on you if you do not leave. This is my home, and I will not be intimidated by anyone trying to flog me encyclopaedias, or, for that matter, someone trying to tell me what I ought to do in my place of work. This is my private residence, and I maintain that right."
      Every British citizen whatever his walk of life, has the right to demand that he be free in his own home from the intimidation which he might encounter on the streets, in the supermarket or at
      638
      his place of work. Therefore, assuming that right hon. and hon. Members opposite mean what they say, this Clause, far from being a damaging one, is a valid and reasonable provision which will retain the sort of balance which any of us who talk about democracy should approve.
      Mr. Ted Fletcher: The purpose of the Clause is stated clearly in the Explanatory Memorandum:
      "Clause 121 removes the protection formerly given by section 2 of the Trade Disputes Act 1906 in respect of picketing a person's home —".
      So the purpose is to remove a protection which the trade union movement has had for 65 years.
      One would have expected the Government to produce, or try to produce, a good argument to justify this change. But what is different in 1971 from 1961, 1951 or any year back to 1906? Have the Secretary of State and the Solicitor-General been inundated with letters from employees who have been intimidated in their homes by trade union pickets? What special circumstances have arisen in 1971 to make the Government believe that now is the time to take away a protection which has existed since 1906?
      Incidentally, I remind the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) that it was a Liberal Government which passed the 1906 Act. He accuses me of being conservative and wanting to go back to the past. The Liberal politicians of 1906 would turn in their graves if they saw the present caricature of a Liberal Party supporting the Tories in trying to dismantle the 1906 Act, which for the first time gave protection to trade unionists for peaceful picketing.
      We are told that there has been a deterioration in standards in recent years and that there is more violence about, though we have been given no evidence for this. I am sure that society was more violent in 1906 than it is in 1971. But, it is said, because society generally is deteriorating it is rational to introduce a restriction of this kind.
      No one has pinpointed a single incident in which Section 2 of the 1906 Act has been abused. The hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Mawby) could not give the names and addresses of people who have

      639
      been intimated. Why, then, is this provision being railroaded through now?
      The real answer is that many hon. Members opposite are against the idea of any picketing and would like to abolish it altogether. As a sop to them, knowing that that would be impossible under any law, the Secretary of State has said, "Let us stop it in one particular instance and say that there shall be no picketing where an employee resides".
      It is not always necessary for trade unions to picket at the residence of an employee, but there are circumstances which make it essential. A trade union official calls a strike. He has to be certain of 100 per cent. backing, or near-100 per cent. backing, for the strike. The first thing that people on strike do is to elect pickets. There may be a dozen or 20, or it may be a mass picket in which every individual striker is regarded as a picket. Incidentally, no definition is given in Clause 148 or anywhere else of what a picket really is.
      If there are people who do not know of the decision to strike—perhaps they are on the night shift—the trade union official will say, "Let us have pickets outside the factory to advise these people that we are on strike and to explain the reasons". But there may well be others whom he cannot contact by this method; some may be at out-stations, some may be engaged on fitting a ship five miles down the river, and others may be engaged on construction work at a site 20 miles away from the factory. In order to tell and peacefully persuade these people, it is necessary to picket outside their homes and say, "This is the situation. We are in dispute with the management. The union has called a strike. and we want you to come out with us".
      That has been permissible in the past. With his "smoothie-chops" approach, the Solicitor-General tells us that nobody will be intimidated under the Clause and that nobody will suffer. He tries to give the impression that this is a benevolent piece of legislation by which no one will be caught. Unfortunately, the people given authority under the Bill to interpret the law do not read Committee stage speeches. Although the hon. and learned Gentleman might say that this is a benevolent piece of legislation, that it is very tolerant, and that the Government intend
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      that a person merely conversing with a colleague in his house will get through the net, that will not be the interpretation of those given authority to impose penalties under the Bill.
      The Clause says that anyone
      "peacefully communicating information"
      to an employee,
      "or peacefully persuading him to work or not to work"
      can do that in certain places, but not where the employee resides. On any interpretation of that, a picket who goes to a person's home to communicate to him information about a strike is guilty of an offence. Whatever plausible explanation is given, we shall have a judges' law, with cases built on cases, and so on, until no one can approach the home of a would-be striker without being in defiance of the law.
      That is one argument by the Government, the argument that we must stop people being intimidated by trade unions calling a strike, though no evidence has been given that they are intimidated.
      The other argument called in aid is that four members of the Donovan Commission were in favour of a review of Section 2 of the 1906 Act. It is very strange that when it suits the purposes of the Solicitor-General he can quote the Donovan Report, but if it does not suit his purpose he can quote the minority. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heller) said that the report has been regarded in these debates as a bible. The Under-Secretary said that even Lord Donovan supported the minority, which seemed to me as though he was trying to make out a case that Lord Donovan is God Almighty, calling him in aid with the minority to substantiate his case. He seems to believe firmly in the proposition that all men are equal, but that some men are more equal than others. The majority, eight of the 12 members of the Commission, reviewed the matter very carefully and said that there are no grounds for amending the 1906 Act.
      The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Dudley Smith): The hon. Gentleman's case would be far stronger if there had been a complete recommendation from Donovan. It was split on the issue.
      Mr. Fletcher: Of course it was split. In every instance where there are a majority and a minority report a commission or committee is split. My point is that two-thirds of the Commission, after considering the matter very carefully, said that in their view the protection the unions have enjoyed for 65 years should be continued.
      So the two arguments in support of the Clause—intimidation, which cannot be proved, and the minority Donovan Report—do not hold water. It is not we but the Government who are in the dock. They owe the Committee an explanation why a protection enjoyed for 65 years is now being taken away. We have listened intently but have not had that explanation. The best thing the Government can do is to withdraw the Clause.
      7.15 p.m.
      Sir Anthony Meyer: The hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Ted Fletcher) said that many Conservative hon. Members are against all forms of picketing. I have heard nothing in the Committee so far that gives the slightest justification for that assumption. I will perhaps now give the hon. Gentleman some slight justification. It is not that I shall oppose picketing, but I will say a word or two to the effect that the right to picket now requires a certain regulation.
      Mr. Ted Fletcher: Why now?
      Sir A. Meyer: I shall come to that shortly.
      Both sides have accepted that, as the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heller) said, instances of violence in the use of picketing are almost unknown in our society. I do not think that what my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Mr. Mawby) said in any way disagreed with that, because he was at pains to point out that the case to which he referred could very well have been touched off by people who were not acting within the authority of their union. But between violence and the idyllic language of the Clause, where we talk about
      "the purpose of peacefully obtaining information from him or peacefully communicating information to him or peacefully persuading him to work or not to work."
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      there is a whole gamut of possibilities. A large section of that gamut could be covered by the word "intimidation".
      My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes let slip a very telling phrase which no one seemed to pick up at the time. He talked about the normal intimidation we meet in streets or supermarkets. It is a fact of life, recognised by most of us, that the kind of situation which results in a strike and pickets taking up positions is one in which there is a temptation to use intimidation. The intimidation can vary from threats of violence to merely the pushing of a face into the face of the person going to work.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: Or threats from the employer.
      Sir A. Meyer: My own daughter worked in the International Telephone Exchange, and, in the delicate language of hon. Members opposite, is no doubt to be called a blackleg or scab. She went to work not during the present postal strike, but during a strike two or three years ago. She says that she did not have to face any threats of violence but that it was extremely unpleasant having to walk through a line of pickets thrusting their faces into hers as she went past and calling her abusive names.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: That may he unpleasant, but does not the hon. Gentleman agree that many times so-called reputable employers have threatened to sack their workers and threatened that they will never take them back into employment? Is not that also rather reprehensible and worrying to the worker on strike? But I suppose that that is not intimidation.
      Sir A. Meyer: It is very reprehensible, and it is one of the things that the Bill sets out to remedy. But discussion about that belongs elsewhere.
      I am trying very hard not to adopt too partisan an attitude on the matter. Labour hon. Members feel passionately about the importance of enabling trade unions properly to defend the interests of their members. None of us who heard the speech of the hon. Member for Birmingham, All Saints (Mr. Brian Walden) is likely to forget it. It was unforgettable for all of us who had the

      643
      privilege to hear it. He argued with extraordinary persuasion the importance of the unions having the ability to defend the interests of their members and the importance for the working class of solidarity. It was an extraordinarily moving performance, which gave a great many of my hon. Friends a fresher insight into the motivation of hon. Members opposite. But it was founded on a fallacy—not a discreditable fallacy but nevertheless a fallacy—based on what The Times today called,
      "… a romantic view of the trade unions as the representatives of the downtrodden".
      The position of the trade unions today is not that of representatives of the downtrodden. It is much more accurately reflected in what the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) described when she spoke to the Institute of Directors some time ago. She said that power had now passed to the shop floor.
      Mr. Orme: So it has.
      Sir A. Meyer: It is true in a sense. One of the objectives of the Bill is to strengthen the responsible trade union leadership. Some hon. Members may think—although so far no one on this side has said it—that this is the wrong Bill and that we should be bringing in a Bill to make any combinations either of employers or of workpeople—
      The Temporary Chairman: Order. Will the hon. Gentleman now relate his remarks to Clause 121 and not to the whole Bill?
      Sir A. Meyer: I apologise. I will come back to the Clause.
      Strong trade unions—and we want strong trade unions—cannot be based either on intimidation or on anything that could conceivably be represented as intimidation. Therefore, we must lean over backwards to ensure that this opportunity to ensure that there can be no possibility of intimidation, which will probably be the last for a long time, is not allowed to slip by.
      I fully acknowledge that 1 have allowed it to slip by myself because I should have put down an Amendment at this stage. On Report, some of my hon. Friends intend to put down an Amendment asking that the right of picketing
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      should be regulated. We freely accept that the trade unions have an absolute right to ensure that any persons going to work at the time of a strike should be made aware that there is a dispute, and that arrangements must be made to allow representations to be made to people, if necessary in their own homes, to ensure that they are aware of the strike and of the issues involved. But I do not believe that this need necessarily involve more than two or three persons making such representations. There is a strong case for replacing the reference in this Clause to "one or more persons" by some such wording as "not more than two persons", or "three persons"—wherever may be appropriate. If such an Amendment were made, it would remove for ever any threat of intimidation, and I give notice that on Report I shall move an Amendment to that effect.
      Mr. Hooson: Reference has not been made so far to the fact that the Clause re-enacts the old legal position as it existed in the 1906 Act and as it has existed since. There has been one exception. The hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Ted Fletcher) has chided me and the Liberal Party for having been the authors of the 1906 Act and for having now committed an unforgivable sin by believing that we should change even a dot or comma of the Act. To him, apparently, that is a cardinal sin.
      I do not know what motivates the Government, but I will say what motivates me in my approach. Picketing is a very important weapon in the hands of the trade unions and it is perfectly legitimate. We live in a real world and when there is a real dispute in industry leading to a strike, people naturally feel strongly. When picketing, therefore, they are bound to use robust language. We have to tolerate this. It is part of the legitimate weapon of argument. We have to accept it in the world in which we live.
      The question facing us is what limits there should be to picketing. There has been gross exaggeration in the debate in relation to the question of intimidation. Violence is rarely used. The history of the British trade union movement is, considering what the unions had to bear, especially in the earlier days, one of remarkably peaceful progression. I do not think that anyone with any

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      knowledge will dispute that. Where there has been violence, it has usually occurred in very trying circumstances.
      Nevertheless, we all know that picketing is a very distressing matter for the person picketed. We have to accept that that is so. It is a perfectly legitimate weapon—a weapon of persuasion just as much as mass propaganda in the Press is a weapon of persuasion. This is where I disagree with the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer). I think that we have to accept picketing, and I believe that the Secretary of State takes the same view.
      But the one great difference is that it is not now going to be permissible to picket a man at his home unless—according to my legal interpretation—it also happens to be at his place of work. If I am wrong in my legal interpretation—I do not think that I am—I understand, from speeches made by the Government, that an Amendment would be acceptable on Report to put this right.
      As I heard the debate, the one legitimate point concerned the example given by the hon. Member for Darlington of a mining village or a place where some of the houses are within the curtilage of the mine. One might in that case have a picket line at the place of work which is also near the residence. It is a perfectly valid point and one must ensure that picketing is allowed in such circumstances.
      The hon. Member—whose contributions I greatly respect—also raised a valid but narrow point when, in effect, he said that the onus of proving the matter is on those who propose a change because they have brought forward no evidence of intimidation over the years to justify any change. I want to answer that point. I do so as a matter of judgment.
      I think that we have reached a stage in society where we are aware, whatever is said here, that picketing is a very unpleasant thing for those who are picketing and for those who are picketed. I accept that. There are certain times in the evolution of our country when the group must be given greater power at the expense of the individual. This country owes a great deal to the way in which the groups have used that power. There is no doubt that all working people owe
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      a great deal to the fact that the trade union movement used its power and provided a means of emancipation of the workers from the conditions of the early industrial revolution.
      But in our modern society, power has moved to the shop floor, as the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) has said—and the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) would say that that is a good thing. We are at a stage, where we have to consider the balance. We have to ask ourselves, "Is it necessary and right?". The hon. Member for Darlington gave examples from the building industry, where it is awkward to picket a man at his place of work and easier to picket him at his place of residence. I accept his argument but I must ask whether it is necessary today to give a union a power which, from my inquiries among hon. Members on this side of the Committee, is comparatively rarely used—the power to picket at home.
      7.30 p.m.
      I come to a value judgment on it. I do not need any evidence of frightening, intimidation, injury and so on. I think that in the state of society we have reached today, our present state of civilisation, this matter is no longer necessary, and despite the bewailing by the hon. Member for Darlington of the fact that there is a slight change from the 1906 position I say, taking my view of it as a Liberal, that although it was necessary in 1906 to strengthen the group, that is no longer necessary in 1971. When we consider the position of the wife and the children at home, and the fact that trade unionists very rarely use this action, and considering the sometimes exaggerated arguments used on the other side, I come to the value judgment that individual rights must be elevated above the group's. I ask the hon. Member for Darlington so say that it is not necessary to produce evidence, because we are all able, from our own knowledge, to come to a decision whether it is necessary in 1971 to give the trade unions the right to picket the individual's home.
      Mr. McNamara: I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way, particularly in view of what I said earlier, in order that I may ask him whether he would not agree that what we are criticising here is a blanket exclusion, whereas it is possible in a number of

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      cases, which we have instanced, and I gave one from a recent strike, to show that a home can be used as a congregating place for blacklegs. The Clause should take account of that.
      Mr. Hooson: I entirely take the hon. Gentleman's point. I think it would be very difficult to draft a Clause for that. The hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie) made a very good point, and, as I have said before he has made very good contributions to our debates on this matter. In a strike people are hurt. They are bound to be. However legitimate the strike, however legitimate the weapons, they are hurt, and if anyone is legislating for this kind of thing one cannot cover every eventuality.
      I agree that there are certain examples which have been given of how this will be a handicap to unions in certain narrow circumstances where they are unable to picket a home, but I understand from my inquiries that normally picketing at home is not the method used by trade unionists if they can avoid it. I think that the generality of the procedure must dominate and I do not think it is possible to legislate in the way that the hon. Gentleman would like.
      Mr. Loughlin: I am very glad that we have had this debate, and that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) referred to the legal interpretation of the first Amendment which we discussed, because it will be within the recollection of the Committee that I quoted a number of particular cases in which men could be caught under this Clause.
      In his winding-up speech the Solicitor-General gave me, at least, to understand that the problem was not so much the cases I quoted but my inability to understand the Bill. In consequence of both his statement and the statement by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery I took legal advice, following upon discussion of that Amendment, and I find from my legal advice that there is a measure of dubiety about the legal interpretation of the Clause, and that it would be, in most of the cases which I quoted, and which other hon. Members on this side quoted, a matter for the courts to decide, and that the
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      interpretation given by the Solicitor-General—and I put it no higher than this—may have been wrong.
      From what the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery said a moment or two ago it appears that he goes a little further than I, after we had a little chat, and he had some discussion with the Government Front Bench. If the Solicitor-General would give us an assurance—I should like to catch his attention—that if in the light of any fresh looking at the Clause he were to find that there is a measure of dubiety, he would then table an Amendment for Report, I think that would satisfy the Committee.
      The more I have listened to this debate and the contributions made from the other side the more I have despaired. I have given every benefit of doubt to those hon. Members on that side to whom I have listened and I agreed with them in many instances. But the hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Mawby) was conveying the impression, prior to an intervention from this side, that trade unionists on strike had committed a considerable number of instances of intimidation, abuse and violence. I invite him to read in HANSARD tomorrow morning the statement which he made—not only that they had committed that kind of action but that one lady had had acid thrown in her face. He said that in his original remarks. It was only when he was challenged that he back-pedalled. I think that it is an abuse of the procedures of this Committee to make statements of that kind without being prepared to table for the Committee the evidence on which such statements are made.
      There has been an argument whether there is something inequitable, or equitable, in the length of time trade unions have enjoyed this right. They have enjoyed it for over 60 years. I agree that there are times when we have to examine the rights which have been bestowed on sectional interests within society, and that there may be circumstances in which we can justifiably say that, in the interests of society as a whole, we have to withdraw a particular right which one section has enjoyed; but before we withdraw a right from any section of the community we have to advance chapter and verse as to abuse, if any, of that right on the part of that section. It is almost an inherent

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      principle of democracy that we should do so. Not one single jot or iota of evidence has been presented, either by the Tory Party or by my Liberal colleague, to suggest that trade unionists have abused the right about which hon. Members opposite are protesting at the moment.
      Of course, one sees on the television instances not only of trade union disputes but of many kinds of dispute. There could be a mammoth demonstration such as the demonstration we had on Sunday, about which there have been estimates varying between 100,000 and 140,000 of the number having taken part, and I do not want to say which estimate is right. If one person had thrown a brick in that demonstration every camera would have pounced. It is now becoming customary for analyses to be made of the conduct of individuals on the basis of the misreporting one sees regularly on the television media.
      I will not tolerate, without protest at least, any suggestion that the trade union movement acts as a mob in the greater proportion of its activities. I accept that there may be occasions when trade unionists go off the rails. Outside the Synod of the Church of England—I concede that they are saints and that we are only sinners who keep trying—if anyone can tell me where to find completely peaceful activity by everybody I shall be pleased to know. Let us not condemn the trade union movement, and only the trade union movement, just because a small proportion of its members may on occasion do something wrong. A substantial case must be made out for denying to the trade union movement a right that it has enjoyed for a long time.
      When the Bill was introduced I tried to look at it with a degree of charity. Having attended the Second Reading debate and the debates in Committee, I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that every Clause we debate is just another link in the chain which is designed to bind the trade union movement. The Solicitor-General has done a mammoth task, but he must cease listening to the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer), who is already beginning the pushing that will take place. If chains are put round the feet, the backwoodsmen will force the Solicitor-General to put chains round the legs. If the Solicitor-General will give an assurance that he
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      will look at this again on Report we might begin to believe in his innocence rather than his guilt.
      [Sir ROBERT GRANT-FERRIS in the Chair]
      Mr. Orme: The extraordinary case expounded by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) and the Solicitor-General was that, whilst there was no concrete evidence that the law on picketing at a person's home should be changed, they nevertheless felt that the law should be changed. Neither the Solicitor-General nor the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery has explained to the House why the law defining picketing—which is difficult, and no one has tried to skate over the problem—should be changed from the 1906 Act in respect of
      "not being a place where he resides".
      The answer was given by the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer). He wanted to see the issue of picketing narrowed further and said that on Report he would try to persuade the Government to define picketing much more clearly and restrictively. The Solicitor-General dismissed as absolute nonsense what I said about this being the thin edge of the wedge, and said that the speeches from the Opposition confirmed his belief that what the Government were doing was right. The Solicitor-General made one of his most impassioned speeches in replying to Amendment No. 873. He was convinced that the Opposition were being irrational, but we are not. The onus is on the Government to prove the point, but they have brought not one iota of proof to the Chamber. It is what lies behind this that worries us.
      7.45 p.m.
      In an earlier debate the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery said that he recognised that this was an emotional issue to trade unionists,although he could not understand it himself—he happens to be a member of one of the best trade unions in the world which never has to resort to industrial action to achieve its objectives. The Solicitor-General missed the point that, despite what we hear in the Chamber, trade unionists who take strike action do not do so lightly.
      I do not run away from the picketing in the Post Office strike. What happened

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      was completely justifiable and I am prepared to say so publicly, but the Solicitor-General and the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery fail to understand the feelings of trade unionists. Trade unionists who justifiably come out on strike, and their families, have to suffer and make sacrifices, just as the Post Office workers are doing. They feel that they have the right to express forcibly to the people who are going to work why they are on strike. They feel that if the other people had joined the strike they might have been more likely to achieve what they wanted. It is an emotional experience.
      Only someone who has been on the picket lines, as I have on several occasions, outside factories and places of work, can understand this. It does not matter whether the strike is official or unofficial, or whether there are pickets or no pickets, if the law is broken people can be prosecuted for violating the common law. When I have been on the picket line some of the people who have been going to work have said to me afterwards that they had been wrong to do so, and had done so only because of difficulties and emotional troubles at home. People who are picketing peacefully have a right to express themselves forcefully. A person going in to work will express himself forcefully too. Pickets often operate in difficult disputes where there is conflict between management and workers and sometimes differences between workpeople.
      Hon. Members will recognise immediately the disputes at Pilkingtons and Roberts Arundel, the dispute at B.M.C., in the 1950s, the trawlermen's dispute, the Barbican site dispute. There are not a great number of disputes in which forms of violence took place during picketing. The police were involved in the Roberts Arundel case and damages were paid.
      Captain W. Elliot: I appreciate that emotions run high and, as the hon. Gentleman said, violence and intimidation take place.
      Mr. Orme: I did not mention intimidation.
      Captain Elliot: The hon. Gentleman mentioned violence. Would he agree that exactly the same is likely to arise if a man's house is picketed?
      Mr. Orme: I was saying that examples of violence are so few in this country that they prove my case, namely that violence does not take place in the vast majority of disputes. I would ask the hon. Gentleman to give me an example of intimidation or violence during picketing of a non-striker's home. He cannot. It is extraordinary that no instances have been given.
      This is no small matter. It is obvious that some people are seeking to reduce the power of picketing. Picketing is an extension of the arm of the strike weapon. When workers on strike appear before the public they are not always trying to prevent people going to work. A few years ago during a big dispute at Fords a great deal of picketing and argument took place, though not intimidation. Today, the whole of Ford's plant are out and nobody needs to be on picket. Whole factories have stopped. It is only in certain instances that this sort of thing takes place.
      One of the dangers of the Clause is that the police will become more and more involved in disputes, and this point must be carefully weighed. In recent years this tendency has increased. I have witnessed these things personally, and have not merely seen them on television or read about them in the newspapers. It is wrong for the police to be involved in industrial disputes since they should be seen to be independent. During one industrial dispute in Manchester in the early 1960s police turned up with police dogs and it was only after the matter was raised in the House that the police were instructed to withdraw.
      Mr. Loughlin: May I ask my hon. Friend to make the clear distinction that, as a general rule, the police are impartial and that it is only in the odd case that difficulty arises?
      Mr. Orme: I am not making an attack on the police. In fact, I am seeking to prevent the police being involved. The extension in the provision to somebody's home will bring in more police in industrial disputes. I ask the Solicitor-General to answer this point. I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) wishes to interrupt?
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: I shall be making my own speech.
      The Chairman: Order. We cannot have these arguments going on sotto voce.
      Mr. Orme: This is not a narrow point and the question of picketing is aimed at the heart of industrial action and dispute. The right to picket has existed since 1906, and if the Bill comes into operation increasing pressure will be put on the Solicitor-General to narrow, define and reduce the picketing powers. I should like an assurance from him that this will not take place.
      Mr. F. P. Crowder: I am sorry that the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) should criticise hon. Members on this side of the Committee for not having said enough on the Clause. May I congratulate the lion. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) on his recent recordership, which all falls in with the union which has been referred to and to which we both have the honour to belong.
      I ask the Government to look at this Clause again. The most important thing about this great Bill of 150 Clauses is that the ordinary person who is affected by it should understand it and not be frightened by it. We do not want a Bill that people do not understand or for them to feel that their rights are affected, when in fact they are not. I do not see how there can be a satisfactory relationship between workers and employers unless they can have complete understanding of what this legislation is all about.
      The Committee will know that as a lawyer I am not directly concerned with industrial law, but I have a certain association with industry because my family own one of the few small ports in Cornwall, which I am happy to say was not to be nationalised by the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle). That was the only part of the United Kingdom in the General Strike of 1926 in which the dockers did not go out on strike. The reason was the happy, friendly, family relationships that existed between employer and employed. When I was a boy I remember one of the dockers, who was wearing earrings and who was aged about 70, coming into the office and asking for a job to be given to his boy. The "boy", who was aged about 45, came in and my father, who was a member of this House, gave him a job immediately,
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      though he had not one to offer. That was the sort of happy relationship that existed at the time. It is the sort of relationship that is required in industry between the employer and the employee, but with the vast concerns of today it makes the task very difficult indeed.
      Mr. Dan Jones: Whose responsibility is that?
      Mr. Crowder: It is a reflection of the modern world, and it is happening not only in this country but all over Europe. When we seek to put down our ideas in the form of legislation, it should at least be in simple language which the ordinary workman and the man on the factory floor can understand. What do hon. Members think that somebody from a small, working-class cottage on the docks in South Cornwall, at the age of 15, would gather from reading the following:
      "The provisions of this section shall have effect where one or more persons (in this section referred to as "pickets"), in contemplation or furtherance of an industrial dispute, attend at or near

      (a) a place where a person works or carries on business, or

      (b) any other place where a person happens to be, not being a place where he resides,

      and do so only for the purpose of peacefully obtaining information from him or peacefully communicating information to him or peacefully persuading him to work or not to work.
      (2) In the circumstances specified in the preceding subsection, the attendance of the pickets at that place for that purpose—
      (a) shall not of itself constitute an offence under section 7 of the Conspiracy, and protection of Property Act 1875 …"?
      How many people living in cottages in South Cornwall will have that Act under the bed? How can we pass legislation of this sort without looking at it in a common sense way?
      Mr. Russell Kerr: It is like the rest of the Bill.
      8.0 p.m.
      Mr. Crowther: I could have drafted the Bill in 60 Clauses. The point of this loquacious Clause is to be found in the three words "where he resides" in subsection 1(b). All that the Government are trying to say in verbose, complicated lawyer's language is that they do not want pickets outside people's homes.
      The Government should look at the Clause and redraft it on sensible lines

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      because picketing has been going on in this country for as long as 65 years. It was introduced by the Liberal Party to which the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery belongs. All that the ordinary person who will be subjected to this Clause wants to know is what it means, and all it means is that one cannot be beastly and behave disgracefully outside a person's home. In the 20 years that I have been at the criminal bar, I cannot think of an instance of a person having been attacked or assaulted by a picket. Will the Government have the kindness to look at this Clause again and simplify it?
      The Solicitor-General: My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Crowder) has urged simplification of the Clause, but he cannot have recollected the way in which the law stands. It stands on a combination of the 1875 Act and the 1906 Act. I dare say that copies of the 1906 Act are as scarce under the bed of his friends in their cottages as are copies of the 1875 Act. My hon. and learned Friend has enough experience of the law to know that one must formulate Clauses with some precision and that if we were merely to attempt the random style of draftsmanship which he suggested it would not add to the intelligibility of the document. Even the last Government's Bill dealing with a much smaller area, like many other pieces of recent legislation, covered many pages and contained many Clauses.
      I share my hon. and learned Friend's aspiration that the law should be drafted in the crisp simplicity of the law of Justinian or the Magna Carta, but those days are no longer with us. I assure him that a great deal of thought has been given to the formulation of this Clause to achieve precisely the object which he endorses. The object of the Clause is to remove the place where someone resides from the presumption in favour of the legitimacy of picketing.
      Mr. Dan Jones: May I invite the hon. and learned Gentleman—
      The Solicitor-General: I fear not. We have spent many hours debating the Clause in the context of the two Amendments.
      As the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) acknowledged,
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      the object of the Clause is to make clear that the presumption in favour of the legitimacy of watching and besetting a person's home should be withdrawn. Understanding of the legal position, whether on this or on any other matter, depends on that which is known and made plain throughout the country. I cannot believe that people have benevolent legislation like the Rent Act, 1965, posted around their dwelling houses.
      The purpose and effect of this legislation is clear. The purpose and effect dates back to 1875 when the law first started—perhaps the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery will forgive me for mentioning it—in a Statute placed on the Statute Book by Disraeli, who at that time sat on this side of the Committee, and the principle continued in the 1906 Act. All that we are doing is to make a single change in respect of picketing of the home. Everyone is agreed about the effect and intention of the Clause.
      The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) wondered whether there was room for doubt about the legitimacy as it has prevailed heretofore of picketing a place of work which was one and the same place as the home. I have looked at the matter again very closely and sought advice, and the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery has done the same. The intention is plain: to vary the law only in respect of the pure home. I judge that the intention is plainly achieved by the Clause. I cannot see any way in which the object of the exercise can be made plainer. If there is anxiety about the matter we will look at it again, but it is difficult to see any way of changing it.
      Mr. McNamara: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman deal with the question which I raised last night about which I feel very strongly? Will he undertake to look at the drafting of the Clause to deal with the situation in which a home is used as a place for gathering blacklegs together and taking them from one place to another?
      The Solicitor-General: I cannot agree to look at that matter. The hon. Gentleman has repeatedly referred to the motorised strike situation in which people are chasing each other around the countryside of Yorkshire and arguing and

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      counter-arguing about the legitimacy of a strike. All forms of communication are perfectly legitimate as long as they do not overstep the bounds of the 1875 Act and do not amount to attempts to compel someone to act against his entitlement or to watching or besetting. There is nothing wrong in attending at a house, whether it is occupied by one or more strikers, would-be strikers or strike breakers. All that we are saying is that there is no longer an automatic presumption in favour of the right of picketing somebody's home. There is no case for altering the law in the way which would apply to the examples which the hon. Member has given.
      The hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Ted Fletcher) raised a similar point. Nothing in the Bill affects the right of people to visit each other's homes and to talk to each other and deliver notes. The hon. Member for Darlington asked how one could communicate with people who were not at home when one wanted to communicate with them. The 1875 Act provided that certain forms of attempted compulsion could amount to criminal offences. It wrote in a special licence and privilege for picketing in the course of industrial disputes. It was continued, with modifications, in 1906 and is now continued. But that special privilege and immunity is no longer judged to be necessary in respect of the home.
      I return to the reasons given by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery for accepting that situation. No one is making a general charge of violence against trade unions, trade unionists or the trade union movement. I was delighted to hear the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) condemn, as we all condemn, violence in an industrial situation. But almost every hon. Member who has contributed to this and the previous debate has acknowledged that in the picketing situation, an extension of the strike weapon, violence may sometimes occur. The hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) explained how that can happen. He referred to the very nature of the feelings on both sides, the emotional experience of both sides, the real conflict of view involved between the striker and the non-striker, and so on. It is because of this conflict of emotion, desire and will that
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      violence can occur from time to time in the picketing situation. We all know it.
      From that, my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) argues that it would be right to change the law to limit the rights and privileges of pickets more generally. I do not accept that, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State does not, and the Government do not accept it. We believe that the ordinary criminal law, to various aspects of which a number of hon. Members have referred, is sufficient in almost all areas. It is available and can be deployed to that end. We do not accept any suggestion for changing the general law on picketing.
      The hon. Member for Walton introduced a curious thought into the discussion when he suggested that violence tends to occur in picketing only if the police attempt to protect the rights of scabs to go to work. That is a very odd proposition to advance in this Committee.
      Mr. Dan Jones: It is a very practical one.
      The Solicitor-General: I want to follow it through. The hon. Member for Salford, West said that it was wrong for the police to become involved in the resolution of industrial disputes.
      Mr. Orme: Hear, hear.
      The Solicitor-General: I accept that, and I am sure that every hon. Member will. But if it is the function of the police in this situation, as in so many others, to uphold the criminal law on which hon. Gentlemen say that it is sufficient to rely, it is their unenviable duty to check and identify, and proceed in cases which they judge right, where the criminal law has been infringed.
      Mr. Russell Kerr: That is what provokes trouble.
      Mr. Concannon: I do not know whether the hon. and learned Gentleman has read the history of the Nottinghamshire miners, but perhaps I might direct his attention to the case at Harworth, where the police were involved in taking what was termed the "Harworth chain gang" through the village to the pit. An incident resulted in 11 people in Har-

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      worth, including a female, being sent to prison.
      The Solicitor-General: What was the date of that incident?
      Mr. Concannon: It was some time ago. It was in the 1930s.
      The Solicitor-General: I think that it is common ground on both sides of the Committee that, so far as the occasions when picketing spills over into violence are concerned, one has the ordinary provisions of the criminal law to prevent the violence taking place and spreading. If that is common ground, it can only be done by the police. It is a difficult duty to discharge, but I suggest that it would be disastrous in such a situation if the police were seen to be discriminating in favour of one side or the other, be it in favour of the unanimously striking employees against the employer or vice versa, or be it against the strikers or against those whom hon. Gentlemen opposite have termed "scabs" or "blacklegs".
      I do not accept the proposition put forward by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton that violence arises only when the police seek to protect scabs. Hon. Members on this side of the Committee do not accept the ligitimacy of this distinction. On their behalf, I put forward the proposition that people are entitled to make their way to their place of work without the threat of violence and with proper protection. But I do not accept that that involves any change in the general law on picketing.
      I accept the point put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Mr. Mawby) that when one judges the balance for changing the law, there is a case for considering the extent to which the home no longer becomes a place to which it is presumed by law that the emotions, conflicts and passions of industrial dispute should wash. There is some point to which a man can retreat and feel that he is immune from pressures of this kind. That is the limit of what we want to achieve. It is on that point that the Committee has now spent some six or seven hours arguing for and against seeking to that very limited extent to protect the home of a person, on whatever side of an industrial dispute he may
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      be, from the presumption that it is a legitimate site for picketing.
      I now commend the Clause to the Committee.
      8.15 p.m.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: I have spoken on only one occasion before in a debate on this Bill. That was on Second Reading, when I detained the House for only four minutes. I shall be equally brief today.
      I think that I am the only hon. Member in the Palace of Westminster to have had experience of both picketing and taking part in a strike not very far from this Palace—
      Mr. Dan Jones: My hon. Friend is right in his geography, but not otherwise.
      Mr. Lewis: I repeat that I think that I am the only hon. Member to take part in a strike while an hon. Member within a stone's throw of the Palace of Westminster.
      I wanted to intervene during the speech of the Solicitor-General. The hon. and learned Gentleman refused to give way. I also wanted to intervene during the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme). My hon. Friend refused to give way at first—
      Mr. Orme rose—
      Mr. Lewis: My hon. Friend was advised by our Front Bench, and he later gave way. If the Solicitor-General had given way to me, I should have put two questions to him.
      The incident which I am about to recount to the Committee is not hypothesis. It actually happened to me. The first case concerns a worker who, while employed at a hotel, may live in the hotel and, as such, reside there. In other words, for the time being it becomes his home. The second case is where a hotel worker resides in an annexe which is not actually in the hotel but is near to and adjacent to the hotel.
      On the occasion of which I speak, I was picketing at the Savoy Hotel, on the Embankment. I was picketing the place of employment of the hotel workers involved. Nearby and adjacent to the hotel was the place where they resided and which was their home. It was impossible to picket either their home or

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      their place of work without picketing both at the same time. Therefore, what I was doing was quite legal, although eventually I was arrested for other reasons, as hon. Members will recall—[Interruption.] I am not apologising. I was quite proud of the effort. However, it is not material to the point that I am making.
      If this provision had existed then, I would have been arrested and charged with picketing the residence of those workers. How can trade union officials or strikers picket in places like this other than by picketing the place of residence?
      Many charges have been made. My hon. Friend the Member for Salford (Mr. Orme) said that no instance had been given by hon. Members opposite in which intimidation had taken place and violence had been used near someone's home. I would ask not hon. Members opposite
      but the Under-Secretary of State for Employment to produce this evidence. His Department was formerly the Ministry of Labour and must have records of strikes and disputes for quite a period.
      Will he officially—if not now, by Report stage—give the number of cases which have been officially reported to his Department of complaints and intimidation at the homes of striking workers? So far as I know, no figures have been published. If there are any, I should like to see them. They must be so few that it is not worth bringing in this restrictive Clause to prevent legitimate picketing.
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:
      The Committee divided: Ayes 296, Noes 249.
      Clause 121 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
      Clauses 122 and 123 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 124

      APPLICATION TO INDUSTRIAL COURT WITH A VIEW TO DISCONTINUING OR DEFERRING INDUSTRIAL ACTION
      Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
      Mr. Haffer: We regard Clause 124 as being of considerable importance. I will not say that it is the heart of the Bill because that has been said many times before about other Clauses. I oppose the Motion that this Clause should stand
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      part of the Bill, and in doing so it is necessary to consider it in association with Clauses 125 and 126, although I shall deal primarily with Clause 124.
      This Clause raises the whole question of the so-called cooling-off period—a period which can be operated under the proposals in the Bill for up to 60 days. The Clause goes much further than strikes and deals with other forms of industrial action. The so-called cooling-off period could be used to deal with a strike, a work-to-rule, an overtime ban, a go-slow or any other form of industrial action known of at present.
      We have frequently pointed out that the Bill is modelled very much on the United States Taft-Hartley Act. Indeed, many parts of the Bill are a direct import from the U.S. However, this part of the

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      Bill goes further than that because it gives direct powers to the secretary of State which the American President does not have.
      Section 206 of the Taft-Hartley Act enables the U.S. President in certain circumstances to appoint a board of inquiry to investigate the circumstances surrounding a strike. That board must report to him within an agreed period. Its report must be made public, and under Section 207 of the Act the board may summon witnesses, examine documents and investigate in the most detailed way the circtunstances of the dispute before there is any decision on the part of the President about making an order for a cooling-off period. Only after receiving that report may he direct the Attorney-General to petition for an injunction and impose a 60-day cooling-off period.
      Under this Bill the Secretary of State can decide, when it appears to him to be necessary, to make an application to the industrial court for an order. In other words, we are giving greater powers to the Secretary of State than the people of America are prepared to give to their President for the imposition of a cooling-off period. Nor is there any suggestion in this Measure that there should be a board of inquiry first.
      I have no doubt that in discussing this matter our attention will once again be drawn to the document "In Place of Strife". [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I would be surprised if hon. Gentlemen opposite did not do that, having no real case of their own. In that document my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) put forward the concept of the status quo; that an employer should keep to the prevailing conditions of employment. Nothing like that is suggested in this Measure.
      Under our policy, if a strike arose because of a change made by an employer he could be obliged to return to the status quo. Many industrial disputes could be solved if the first step was a return to the status quo. Proper discussions could then take place. It is when an employer arbitrarily takes a decision to move away from the existing conditions and tries to impose new conditions that disputes frequently break out.
      Mr. Kenneth Lewis: The hon. Gentleman has just said that if the parties would
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      go back to the status quo, in many cases a solution could be found to the strike. What about the postmen at present? If they had returned to the situation where arbitration was agreed and if they had accepted it, there would have been a solution. The hon. Gentleman puts forward a proposition which in that instance does not, has not and is not working because the union will not conform.
      Mr. Heffer: I have often heard hon. Members say that they regret having given way. I have never yet said it myself, but on this occasion I regret that I gave way because the hon. Gentleman's point added absolutely nothing and made no contribution to the debate. We are not discussing the exact conditions of the postmen's dispute. I am pointing out that many disputes would be easier to settle if the status quo situation remained.
      The words of Section 208 of the Taft-Hartley Act are very similar to those in the Bill. Section 208(a) states:
      "Upon receiving a report from a board of inquiry the President may direct the Attorney General to petition any district court of the United States having jurisdiction of the parties to enjoin such strike or lock-out or the continuing thereof, and if the court finds that such threatened or actual strike or lock-out (i) affects an entire industry or a substantial part thereof engaged in trade, commerce, transportation, transmission, or communication among the several States or with foreign nations, or engaged in the production of goods for commerce; and (ii) if permitted to occur or to continue, will imperil the national health or safety, it shall have jurisdiction to enjoin any such strike or lock-out, or the continuing thereof, and to make such other orders as may be appropriate."
      The language used in our laws has been mentioned in the debate. It seems that the language used in the United States laws is not much better from the point of view of the understanding of the ordinary worker. Lawyers in every country suffer from the same problem in drafting documents. If those words are contrasted with the words in Clause 124(2)(a) and (b), whilst they are not exactly the same, there is an immense similarity. It is clear that hon. Gentlemen opposite have to a large extent lifted them. I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell) is nodding in agreement. That is interesting. I understand that he is a leading member of the Industrial Committee, which obviously had something to do with the drafting of the Bill. The words are lifted right out.

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      These proposals go beyond that part of the Act. I quote a very interesting statement from Mr. George Meeney, the National President of the A.F.L.-C.I.O.:
      "Under Taft-Hartley, as under the proposed British legislation, the government's assertion that a strike creates or threatens a national emergency is supposedly subject to judicial review, but no court has ever been willing to override the judgment of the government on that. Thus in practice under Taft-Hartley a 'national emergency' is any labor dispute that the government decides to so label. While the U.S. government has been fairly restrained in invoking the National Emergency provisions … the definition of national emergency contemplated for the proposed British legislation is much, much broader than that in Taft-Hartley. Thus the British legislation would apply to disputes which 'would deprive the community of the essentials of life or seriously endanger the national health, security or economy'. That would encompass any very large strike, such as the current General Motors strike, whereas Taft-Hartley may not be invoked simply because of the size of the strike."
      8.45 p.m.
      That is important. It must be said again and again that the Bill goes much further than the provisions of the Taft-Hartley Act: yet the American unions have consistently fought the Taft-Hartley Act and have suffered as a result of its existence.
      Precisely because it is a direct import from the United States, the effects that the Taft-Hartley Act has had in America must be examined. I quote the headlines of an article by Stephen Fay in the Sunday Times of 26th January, 1969:
      "Seven strike threats plus seven cooling-offs equal seven strikes.
      And 13 ballots equal 13 strikes."
      Stephen Fay said something else which is well worth quoting. He had discussed the situation with one of the leaders of the dockers' union on the East Coast of the United States. This is what Gleason—the dockers' leader—said:
      "'Taft-Hartley is a nuisance'. It clearly does not deter the dockers. It is not that Gleason is bent on the destruction of American capitalism. This is one of the most militant unions in the United States', Gleason says. 'and it is one of the most patriotic in the country, too. I have been to Vietnam four times to help them get the stuff off the boats'. But Taft-Hartley does seem to have fouled up negotiating practice in the docks. 'The trouble is that the employers never make their final offer before the contract ends because they know the Government will send us back to work for 80 days', says Gleason."
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      So there we have it—13 ballots equals 13 strikes; seven strike threats, plus seven cooling-off periods, equal seven strikes.
      I call in aid the Royal Commission, because I am sure we shall hear much of this. Paragraphs 423–25 refer. In paragraph 425 the Commission, after having examined the proposals for cooling off, said this:
      "On the whole therefore we do not think that the introduction of a procedure such as is proposed by the Society of Conservative Lawyers"—
      that was the proposal for the 60-day cooling-off period—
      "would be beneficial. We think it preferable that the Government's present freedom of action should be preserved, and we do not think that it has been shown that its power needs to be increased."
      All the evidence—whether it is the evidence of the experience in the United States or the evidence of the Royal Commission, which seriously studied the question—proves conclusively that the proposals in the Bill are unnecessary and will not aid industrial relations.
      These proposals may increase bitterness and result in strikes of longer duration than is necessary. During the 60-day cooling-off period both sides may build up their resources for the time when the cooling-off period ends. That has been the experience in the United States, and it could well happen here. The proposal gives far too much power to the Secretary of State. It is directed wholly against unions, with no attempt to influence employers.
      The hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) said that he wanted the control of picketing to go much further than merely preventing the picketing of peoples' homes. In the United States of America similar voices are being raised. One is the voice of Senator Fannin, a Republican from Arizona, who said in January of this year that
      "When an injunction has been applied to a union on supposed grounds of a threatened national emergency strike, this Bill will make the injunction permanent until after an agreement has been reached, rather than the 80-day period now in law."
      So we start with a 60-day cooling-off period. That does not prevent strikes. Hon. Members opposite would then propose a permanent injunction. Basically,

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      that would mean the end of the right to strike.
      The next step would be open and direct Fascism. The argument has been advanced that things would be very much easier with this sort of legislation. Things are easy in Spain; the workers cannot take action. It is easy to argue that case; but it means the end of democratic rights for trade unions.
      Mr. McNamara: My hon. Friend has said that workers in Spain are not allowed to strike; but in both Spain and Poland they have done so, in defiance of the law, thereby bringing it into complete disrepute.
      Mr. Heller: Yes. The workers always will do that, in defiance of the law.
      Mr. David Mitchell rose—
      Mr. Heller: I will not give way. The hon. Member for Basingstoke will have an opportunity of debating this matter. I have spent long enough explaining my opposition to the Clause.
      Because this part of the Bill is a fundamental attack on the trade union movement, because we believe that it is totally unnecessary, and will not solve disputes, and because the important thing is to get the conciliation machinery into operation in these situations rather than introduce Measures of this kind, we ask the Committee to reject the Clause and the whole of this part of the Bill.
      Mr. Ian Percival: I agree with the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heller) that this is a very important Clause. It introduces something new into our law. It is important that it should be justifiable, clear and workable. I agree that the concept is taken from the cooling-off period specified in the Taft-Hartley legislation. I stress the word "concept", because there is a lot of difference in the detail. Shortly I shall respectfully submit that the hon. Gentleman is wrong in saying that the powers given to the Secretary of State under the Bill are greater than the political powers given in America. I think that he has misunderstood it. At all events, there is another view.
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      I shall not spend time comparing what is proposed here with "In Place of Strife", and neither shall I spend time referring to what the Royal Commission said about it, although I had the honour to form the society of Conservative lawyers which was referred to in the quotation which the hon. Gentleman made from the Donovan Report. But I am glad to have a chance to speak on the Clause because, although I acknowledge that hon. Members opposite have much more knowledge of certain aspects of the matter, my interest in it has been no less great and no less sincere over many years.
      Last year, having talked a lot with other lawyers about Taft-Hartley over the years, I thought that it would not be a bad thing to go and see it in operation on the ground. I concede that I am only a "three-week" expert, a rather limited kind of expert, but I did meet people like Tom Harris of the A.F. of L.-C.I.O. who has worked with the Taft-Hartley Act for a very long time, and who has such a reputation in the United States, as well as meeting people like the Regional Director of the Labour Relations Board in Brooklyn who has had such great experience of implementing Taft-Hartley, and many others.
      In that way, one gains a rather better slant on the American law—I put it no higher than that—than one does merely from reading, hearing about it and discussing it.
      Mr. Heffer: I spent two full months, long before I came to the House, studying the whole trade union movement and American trade union law in the United States.
      Mr. Percival: I hope that the hon. Gentleman did not think that I meant to imply anything adverse to him, for I meant no such thing. I was merely saying that I had a little experience and that, although I could not claim a lot of knowledge, I felt that I was entitled at least to claim some. [Interruption.] I said that hon. Members opposite have much more knowledge of other aspects of the subject than I have. I speak merely as a lawyer who has been closely interested in the legal side of the matter, who does not believe that the law can solve industrial relations problems but who hopes that it might provide means to assist those

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      who are actively engaged in resolving differences, and one who has a little, albeit only a little, first-hand experience of the Taft-Hartley legislation.
      The hon. Gentleman overstates the case when he says that the American trade unions have suffered from the Taft-Hartley Act. I dare say that they have in some ways, but I am sure that he will be the first to agree that there are differing views on the other side of the Atlantic about who benefits under Taft-Hartley. There are some who think that it is meant entirely for the benefit of unions, and there are some unions who think that it is certainly not. I do not believe that one can postulate either of those views. In some respects, it is very helpful to unions, and in other ways it is not.
      What we should learn from the United States is that this particular procedure has, on the whole, worked. The hon. Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong, but I think that it has been used only about 27 times in 25 years—or 25 times in 27 years; I am not sure which. I say here and now that I expect and hope to hear from Ministers that it is the Government's intention that this procedure should be used very rarely, and only in the quite exceptional case.
      The one lesson to be learned from the United States is that, if it were to be used frequently, it might soon lose its effectiveness. It should be available only in most extreme circumstances when the national interest is at stake. I for one am very glad that the conditions upon which it may be prayed in aid are drawn so very tightly in the Bill.
      I was told that in the United States they regarded that as very important. One example was an airline strike. The Secretary of Labour at the time said that his immediate reaction was that it was a dispute on such a scale that it must be affecting the national interest and that therefore the cooling-off period should be employed. But, realising how important it was that it should be used only very rarely, he reconsidered the matter and said that while it was an enormous inconvenience to have all the airlines out on strike it was not necessarily prejudicial o the national interest in the short run. So the United States Government gave effect to the principle that the power should be used only in the most extreme cases.
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      [Miss HARVIE ANDERSON in the Chair]
      9.0 p.m.
      Where the hon. Gentleman may be wrong is in his assumption that great powers are given to the Secretary of State. The only reason I find the provisions acceptable is that I believe that the powers of the Secretary of State have been severely curbed. If I thought that the provisions gave him great powers, I should oppose them.
      We must look at Clauses 124 and 125 together. I hope that I shall be in order in referring briefly to Clause 125, because the point I want to make is so closely bound up with what is in it. It is true that the Secretary of State does not have to appoint a board of inquiry, as the United States President does. He has only to satisfy himself that the conditions postulated in Clause 124 are satisfied, and does not have to go outside his own Department at that stage. But he has first to satisfy himself that all the conditions of the Clause are met. All that the Clause says is that if he has satisfied himself to that extent he may apply to the court, but nothing happens then unless he satisfies the court that he was right in thinking that those conditions were met.
      Here I speak with 20 years' experience of the courts, and from the heart. It is wrong to think that we shall see here anything like what happened in the United States, if the quotation which the hon. Gentleman read is true. If my memory is correct, it said that the courts had never dared disagree with the President's conclusion that the national interest was at stake. I do not wish to comment on that, though from the little I know of the American courts I doubt whether that proposition is justified. But, be that as it may, I am certain as I can be of anything that it does not apply to this country. I am certain that the Industrial Relations Court will carry on the traditions of the other courts that it stands there to protect everyone else against the State, and that when the State applies for an order it has if anything an even more difficult job to satisfy the court of the conditions which must obtain before the court will make an order.

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      The procedure in the Clauses is very desirable. Contrary to what the hon. Gentleman said, it is designed to protect the persons against whom the order may eventually be made, and it provides the best protection that can be provided for them. Apart from the Secretary of State's deliberations, which will be in private, everything must happen in public. The application must be in public, the Secretary of State must satisfy the court on facts stated in public, facts which will be presented by witnesses who will be cross-examined, no doubt very rigorously if the ground is shaky, and the contrary case can be put by anyone who is interested to put it in public. Then, finally, the decision and the reasons for it will be given in public.
      Mr. Russell Kerr: With the lawyers earning fat fees.
      Mr. Percival: The hon. Member for Feltham (Mr. Russell Kerr) does himself and the Committee less than justice by silly remarks like that. No one ever employs a lawyer unless he wants his services. In the N.I.R.C., legal aid will be available. We were told that yesterday but I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was here then. We have not seen much of him in the last few days.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis rose—
      Mr. Percival: No, I am not giving way.
      The case may be presented to the court by any person any party desires to present it—perhaps it will be a trade union official or an individual. If the party wishes to employ a lawyer, he may present the case. The whole of the facts are to be examined in public, and the onus will be on the Secretary of State to satisfy the court that all of the conditions postulated by the Statute have been satisfied. It is only in these circumstances that an order can be made. I believe that the conditions have been drawn very tightly. If any hon. Member opposite were able to demonstrate that they are not drawn tightly but are drawn loosely, I should be the first to express the wish that such a defect should be remedied, because 1 believe that, if a procedure like this is to be useful, notwithstanding the remarks of my right hon. Friend—
      Mr. Russell Kerr: That is a matter of opinion.
      Mr. Percival: What lawyers hope for is that these processes will be useful for the purpose for which they are intended. I believe that the process we are introducing into our law can be useful, providing two conditions are satisfied—first, that the conditions under which the powers may be exercised are tightly drawn, and, secondly, that the procedure is used but rarely.
      I commend the Clause to the Committee because I believe that the first requirement, which is the only one which can be dealt with in the Bill, is satisfied by the Clause as drafted, and I hope and expect that the other prerequisite for the success of this procedure—that it be used rarely—is the Government's intention.
      Mr. Ted Fletcher: I take up two points made by the hon. and learned Member for Southport (Mr. Percival). He said that in the United States the authorities were reluctant to use injunctions for the 90-day cooling-off period. He put forward this proposition in support of an argument that we should adopt a similar system.
      The reluctance in the United States is because the system has failed there. After the longshoremen's strike, a directive was issued to the Civil Service to this effect, "Do not get an injunction to restrain unions from striking for 90 days" because in the longshoremen's case a comparatively small dispute during the waiting period was blown up into a major national strike. As a consequence of its own experience, the United States is holding back from imposing upon the union a statutory period of 90 days before it takes strike action. So it has nothing at all to do with the reluctance of the Administration to invoke that clause. It is a fact of history which has taught it that the law does not work. It is getting its fingers burned, and that is the reason why it is holding back.
      So do not let us take as an example what is happening in America, because if we have similar legislation we shall find out from our own experience gained in the hard way, that the law will not work and that a cooling-off period would, in fact, be a hotting-up period and that many strikes would be more difficult to settle rather than easier to settle.

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      The next point which the hon. and learned Gentleman made was that if the Secretary of State made application to the court, the court would have to be satisfied that it was a legitimate application. Surely, the courts are the creature of the Government. [HoN. MEMBERS: "No."] They are being created—
      Mr. Percival rose—
      Mr. Fletcher: Just a moment. I will give way presently. They will be created by this Bill. The courts will be created in accordance with the Clauses of the Bill. They are creatures of this Government, and the creatures of the Secretary of State, and so it is inconceivable that if he takes a case to the court and the case is in accordance with the Bill which we are about to pass, the court will not grant the Secretary of State's request.
      Mr. Percival: I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving way, but I say to him, with all humility, that if he really believes that the courts of this country are the creatures of anybody, he has got it wrong. Somebody has got to set them up, but I hope that he will realise that and in the rest of his speech—if the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) will keep quiet for a moment as others have kept quiet and listened to him—really will accept from those of us who deal with the courts every day that the courts of this country are wholly independent and not creatures of anybody, and will not be in acting under this Bill.
      Mr. Fletcher: The hon. and learned Gentleman knows perfectly well that I did not refer to the courts of this country. I referred to the courts which are being created by the Bill, and they have their powers set out in the various Clauses of the Bill. As a consequence. the courts are the creatures of the Secretary of State.
      To make an elaborate argument that the court will have to be satisfied that the Secretary of State is correct, and so on, is beside the point, because if the Secretary of State is working in accordance with the Bill which we are about to pass he will obviously bring himself within the jurisdiction of the court. The courts are mere creatures of the Secretary of State. So this is no safeguard. The courts are puppets of this Administration, and puppets of the Tory Government.
      Mr. Gower: We, of course, understand what the hon. Member means when he says that they are created by this legislation, but they will be a branch, a part, of our judicature and will be manned by, among others, persons who are independent of the Executive Government and who are part of the judiciary and are High Court judges. It has been the glory of the democratic tradition of this country for many generations that our judges, constantly over history, have faced and opposed actions of the Executive Government at various times.
      Mr. Fletcher: I know that judges are held in very high regard by the legal profession, but they are not necessarily so regarded by the public of this country. Judges have been matters for derision throughout the ages. From Chaucer through Shakespeare to Gilbert and Sullivan we have made fun of our judges. The only respect now shown to them is by the legal profession. The fact that we appoint judges to the Industrial Relations Court, which is the equivalent of the High Court, does not mean that the trade unions will necessarily hold them in higher reverence. Their duties are specifically set out in the Bill, and if the Secretary of State acts in accordance with the Bill he will he using his creatures to see that his will is carried forward.
      9.15 p.m.
      Clause 124(3) refers to a strike or to irregular industrial action short of a strike. On previous occasions we have asked the Government what is "action short of a strike". It is vital in this context, because the cooling-off period could be used in aid of action short of a strike. Is working to rule notion short of a strike? Is this the sort of action where the Government could impose a cooling-off period?
      When a trade unionist works to rule, he works to the employer's rule—the rules that are given to him by the employer when he obtains employment. For example, a driver in a haulage firm might be told to examine tyre pressures and the water level in the radiator and see that the battery is topped up. In the interests of production he gives a cursory glance to these things and carries on with the job. If he obeyed the rules of his employer and worked to rule he could spend a good deal of time each day doing

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      these things, with a consequent loss of production. Is this action short of a strike? Is it action that should be penalised? Would the court say that there should be a 60-day cooling-off period for this action because it is used in furtherance of an industrial dispute?
      The 60-day cooling-off period is quite irrelevant to solving industrial disputes, and may even prolong them. Small sections of workers who have a genuine grievance will be able to utilise the 60 days to mobilise support amongst their colleagues in other branches, and at the end of the cooling-off period we may be faced with bigger industrial problems than if initially the unions and employers had sat round a table and tried to solve their problems.
      Clauses 124, 125 and 126 are particularly important. They incorporate systems which exist in the United States and which have failed to such an extent that the Americans are having second thoughts about them. If the Government studied the American situation, they might come to the same conclusions as are being reached over there and think twice before trying to implement the Clauses.
      Mr. Tom King: I certainly follow the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Ted Fletcher) when he says that this Measure is no magic solution to the problems and that there will be many occasions when it could aggravate the situation. There will be little disagreement on this point between those of us with common industrial experience.
      I do not follow him on his comments on the judiciary, which I thought were most regrettable and, out of kindness, best ignored. On reflection, the hon. Gentleman may feel that it would have been better not said.
      There is a danger that this Clause may achieve a significance out of proportion to its effectiveness in relation to the number of times it is likely to be used. We are asked why we are bringing forward this provision since it is never likely to be used, but there is conflicting evidence on this matter.
      Hon. Members have mentioned the American experience and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer)
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      mentioned the article instancing seven ballots, seven pauses and seven strikes. Furthermore, when one looks at paragraph 421 of Donovan one sees that the evidence is conflicting. In 24 cases in which injunctions were granted, a standstill period was successfully imposed. We do not know what the situation would be when tightly-drawn Clauses are imposed in regard to action which is likely to be
      "gravely injurious to the national economy, to imperil national security or to create a serious risk of public disorder. —"
      We cannot ignore the evidence that in 16 instances mentioned by Donovan stoppages were virtually avoided by the use of the Taft-Hartley procedure.
      The hon. Member for Walton pointed to the extension of the Taft-Hartley procedure to matters which are likely
      "to endanger the lives of a substantial number of persons, or expose a substantial number of persons to serious risk of disease or personal injury."
      That is the standard in the Taft-Hartley procedure, but surely in the national interest that could be omitted in view of the interdependence of one set of workers with another set of workers.
      Therefore, I support this provision on the strict condition that it is used sparingly. Attention has been drawn to the American experience and on some occasions we are told that we cannot avoid the consequences of the present situation in the United States. I do not accept that view. In this country we have our own ways of handling matters and we have our own ways of interpreting the law as applied to differing conditions and to different people.
      Mr. Heffer: I endorse the hon. Gentleman's last point that up to now we have had our own ways of settling problems. Why, therefore, to solve our problems do we now have to borrow from the United States something that is suspect?
      Mr. King: The hon. Gentleman intervenes as though the rest of the world remains static. We are living in a dynamic society. In 1906 we did not, for example, have 25 per cent. American investment in this country. [Laughter.] I do not introduce this matter in any way to suggest that, because we have American investment, we should adopt American labour laws. Hon. Members should not read into my words more than

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      I meant. Perhaps it was an unfortunate example to give. What I meant by giving that example was simply that it is a changing situation. We did not have the same level of American capital investment in 1906 or in 1875.
      Mr. David Mitchell: I hope that my hon. Friend will join me in condemning the laughter with which this very serious matter about United States investment in this country was greeted by hon. Members opposite.
      Mr. King: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but he was trying to throw a lifeline which was not really needed. In view of what has been said in the correspondence columns of The Times in the last two days, and in spite of the attempt of the hon. Member for Walton to dismiss the matter as though it was past history, we recognise that we live in an international world of industry. The situation is not static, and it is no good arguing that it is.
      The proposed procedure will be effective only if it is not regarded as the general rule and only if it is used extremely sparingly and strictly in accordance with Clause 124(1)(c). This is the nub of the Clause, and it provides
      "that having regard to all the circumstances of the industrial dispute,"
      use of the Bill
      "would be conducive to a settlement … by negotiation, conciliation or arbitration if the industrial action were discontinued or deferred".
      It does not mean that that will automatically follow or that we shall get into the sort of situation which has arisen in the United States where the 60-day period is automatically discounted and it becomes part of the common negotiating procedure. This is a fall-back procedure to be employed only as categorised in paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (2).
      Mr. Greville Janner: The hon. Gentleman has said on several occasions that the Bill should be used only extremely sparingly. Can he point to anything in the Clause that indicates that it must be used only sparingly and which will stop the Secretary of State, who is given complete discretion, from applying to the court as and when he sees fit?
      Mr. King: I have already answered that point in my opening remarks. This procedure will be used in only a limited number of cases.
      The hon. Member for Darlington made the point, which I accept, that in many instances the situation could positively be aggravated by employing this procedure. There are many other cases in which it will be effective. Whether the procedure is used sparingly will be determined by whether the Secretary of State correctly interprets subsection (1)(c). There will be very few cases in which it could be fairly said that it was conducive to a settlement.
      9.30 p.m.
      Mr. Frederick Lee: I have been trying to contemplate situations in which the Clause would be appropriate. The Prime Minister used to say that the number of working days lost was tragic and that strikes were prevalent and, therefore, legislation would be introduced to deal with the situation.
      We are now discussing a situation in which the Secretary of State is not confronted with a strike. According to the words in the Clause, he may be confronted with something short of a strike, yet that which is short of a strike must also be
      " … gravely injurious to the national economy".
      I have had a lot of experience in this House, in Ministerial positions and in industry. I cannot conceive of a situation which is even remotely comparable with that kind of wording.
      Mr. Dudley Smith: The Clause refers to conditions
      "… likely to be gravely injurious to the national economy".
      If a strike has not taken place but is definitely threatened and is likely to be gravely injurious, I think that the Secretary of State of the day has every right to act within the provisions of the Clause.
      Mr. Lee: The hon. Gentleman is talking about strikes which are definitely threatened. I do not read anything like that in the Clause.
      In a number of places in the Clause we see references to matters which have not reached the stage of strike action. In subsection (3)(a) we see a reference to
      "… irregular industrial action short of a strike".

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      How does any Minister begin to construe irregular industrial action short of a strike as being a situation which is gravely injurious to the national economy?
      Mr. Ian Lloyd (Portsmouth, Lang-stone): Perhaps I can help the right hon. Gentleman with a valid example. If those in charge of the national defence radar computers were to work to rule on those computers, in certain circumstances they could so prejudice our defence that large numbers of people would find their lives at risk. But that is not a strike.
      Mr. Lee: Here we come to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Ted Fletcher). Apparently, if there is a threat to work to rule it is now to be decided that the Secretary of State is justified in using this Clause. However, if men are working to rule, they are working to conditions and regulations laid down by their employer.
      Mr. Tom King: I should have picked up the hon. Member for Darlington on this point. I do not think that anyone seriously accepts that working to rule means working to rules approved by an employer.
      Mr. Ted Fletcher: Of course it does.
      Mr. King: In practice, it means working to rules established by employees within the vacuum of unspecified terms of employment of their employers.
      Mr. Lee: If the hon. Gentleman cares to put that proposition down as an Amendment, I will consider it. At the moment, hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to be violently disagreeing with each other, and I do not wish to see supporters of the Bill getting themselves into that sort of state after I have been on my feet for only about 30 seconds.
      Mr. Gower: If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the interpretation Clause, Clause 148, he will see the word "action" defined as
      "any refusal or failure to act"
      Mr. Lee: I do not want to continue with this point for too long. I have tried to glean some information from the combined wisdom of hon. Gentlemen opposite by giving way to them, but I still want to know how the Secretary of State proposes to work the Clause.
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      I have quoted the words of the Clause without importing any language of my own. If the Secretary of State were suddenly confronted by one of his civil servants who said, "It really should appear necessary to you that, in contemplation or furtherance of an industrial dispute, certain things are likely to happen," what action would he take? Would he first ask himself whether the issue was gravely injurious to the national economy? He would have to satisfy himself that it was before he could act on this Clause. If he does not act, having satisfied himself that it is, or is likely to be, gravely injurious to the national economy, then he is falling down on his duty. But the criterion for that is not necessarily a strike. It is that in some way or another some action short of a strike is likely.
      In the first instance, how does the Secretary of State find this out? I do not want to go over some of the other Clauses, but my hon. Friend has shown with great clarity that this must be a "snoopers' charter" if it is to work at all. How does the solemn occupant of No. 8 St. James's Square find out that some action short of a strike is to take place in Trafford Park, Manchester, or some other industrial area, and then make up his mind whether it is likely to become gravely injurious to the national economy? I suggest that the Clause alone, no matter how much we may disagree on other issues, shows that this legislation is utterly unworkable.
      The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Tom King) disagreed about working to rule. Let me give other illustrations. I can think of huge factories in which I had responsibilities, in which—during the highest crisis imaginable, a war period—one had to keep the balance of production pretty uniform. In other words, parts produced in one part of the factory had to synchronise with those produced in other parts.
      Suppose that in one part of the factory a large number of men with a grievance decided to come off the piecework system and go on day work. There is nothing whatever in their terms of employment to stop them doing that, but anyone with any knowledge of the work floor in a great factory knows that if that went on for a few days the whole balance of production would be distorted in the factory.

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      Is this conceived as something gravely injurious to the national economy? These men, let us remember, are working entirely within their rights. In this case, it would be not even a question of working to rule but one of working to the conditions on which they were employed.
      With some experience as a Minister, I would not know how to work this Clause, and I would challenge any right hon. Gentleman within sound of my voice who has been in a Ministerial chair to tell me how he would work it out.
      Mr. Dudley Smith: The right hon. Gentleman should be fairly fair on this. Besides dealing with this Clause, perhaps I can make a passing reference to the next one. This is subject to the N.I.R.C. being satisfied that the evidence is there, on sufficient grounds, under these premises which are enumerated in Clause 124. So any precipitate action by a Secretary of State, if it took place in hypothetical circumstances, would be checked by the Industrial Court, which, of course, will be independent of the Secretary of State.
      Mr. Lee: I understand the hon. Gentleman's point. Of course one can say that that is the follow-up of Clause 124. But we are not arguing about what happens after the Secretary of State has made his reference; we are arguing about the conditions under which the right hon. Gentleman would first satisfy himself that he should make a reference to the Court. This is the issue of Clause 124. I repeat that I would not know how to make such a reference. I would not know the conditions.
      Let us go back to 1926, which is the only case that I can think of. I should not have thought that, even then, the Clause was any answer to the problem, but I could understand those who support it saying that it was operative under those conditions. Short of that, I can remember no dispute in my adult life to which this Clause would be at all appropriate.
      It seems that even the supporters of this Bill know that it is making a complete nonsense of all the propaganda by which the country was conditioned to accept this legislation. It has nothing whatever to do with the number of unofficial strikes or the number of days lost in unofficial strikes. It does not even
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      require strike action. It is something which to me—and I have some industrial knowledge—is complete gobbledegook, and it will make no sense at all under any circumstances.
      Mr. David Mitchell: I listened with incredulity to the right hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee). If what he says is true—and for the purposes of the argument I am prepared to accept his judgment—then he cannot conceive of irregular industrial action short of a strike which would be gravely injurious to the national interest or security. If there is no such circumstance there would be no prospect of the Minister managing to get a court order and, if he could not get a court order, then the fears of the right hon. Gentleman would be of no consequence.
      Mr. Greville Janner rose—
      Mr. Mitchell: I cannot give way. I know that the hon. Member is trying to get into the debate and I do not want to deprive him of the opportunity.
      During his speech the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) made four points which I noted carefully. He drew attention to the fact that there is a considerable similarity between the proposals of my right hon. Friend in this Bill and the cooling-off period which operates in the United States. He said that the use of the cooling-off period in the United States was subject to judicial restraint, by which I take it he means an application to the court. He said that never has the United States Government been rebuffed in its application to the court and that therefore the judiciary of the United States was a rubber stamp for the President.
      Mr. Heffer: We must get this on the record. I was quoting from George Meany and Mr. Meany said:
      "… the Government's assertion that a strike creates or threatens a national emergency is supposedly subject to judicial review but no court"—
      and he is talking about the United States—
      "has ever been willing to override the judgment of the Government on that. Thus in practice under Taft-Hartley a 'national emergency' is any labour dispute that the Government decides to so label"
      Mr. Mitchell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for restating the point. I was doing my best to put it as fairly as I could. The Government of the United States takes great care and much advice before making an application to the court, because it does not wish to be shown to have made an application and to have been rebuffed. It is not the case that the court is in the pocket of the U.S. Government—very much the reverse. The U.S. Government does not dare move unless it is sure that it has a watertight case and can convince an independent court that it has such a case.
      The hon. Gentleman went on to quote from Stephen Fay's article and referred to the fact that there is a ballot for the continuation of a strike. He said that many times, in the U.S., I think seven times in the case of the longshoremen, the ballot has gone for the continuation of the strike. This is true. But let us be clear that this is one of the major differences between the U.S. legislation and that proposed here. Under U.S. legislation the employer's last offer has to be put to a ballot. That ballot comes, I think, after 50 days of the cooling-off period have run.
      9.45 p.m.
      In this country the union says to its members, "Please vote for a continuation of the strike because we have not succeeded in negotiating a satisfactory settlement. If you vote for a continuation of the strike and for confidence in your union leaders, we will be able to secure a better offer from the employers than we have obtained so far".
      Naturally, whenever these circumstances arise, the union will get its vote of confidence and there will be a concurrence with the union leadership not to accept the employer's last offer. For this reason the Government are right not to replica in our legislation this fault that exists in the American legislation.
      By this state of affairs arising at this point of the cooling-off period, one is bound to get a heating up of the atmosphere, precisely when a settlement might be reached. Because of this fault in the American legislation, it is not being included in this legislation.
      The hon. Member for Walton went on to refer to Mr. Gleason saying that em-
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      ployers never made the best offer. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman discussed this matter with Mr. Gleason when he was in the United States. I did.
      Mr. Heffer: I did not discuss this question with Mr. Gleason, though I discussed it with Mr. Reuther, Harry Bridges and every top trade union official with whom I could get in touch. Unfortunately, I was not in contact with Mr. Gleason.
      Mr. Mitchell: I was more fortunate than the hon. Gentleman. I was able to speak to Mr. Gleason about this. I can, therefore, give the Committee the evidence necessary to support my argument, which is simply that Mr. Gleason takes the view that it has become a crutch—he used the word—in that employers do not make their last offer because in the case of, for example, longshoremen's disputes, it has become a habit of the U.S. Government to apply for a cooling-off period.
      It has been used frequently and regularly in this one industry, as a result of which both sides in the industry take into their calculations when negotiating the probability that a cooling-off period will be slapped on should a dispute break out. It is to be hoped that the same sort of thing will not occur here. If it did, similar difficulties would arise.
      In all other disputes, however—that is, in all disputes apart from those affecting the longshoremen—it has been used rarely and the parties do not know whether or not it will be used. In those circumstances, it cannot and does not enter into their calculations. It does not, therefore, have the disadvantages to which attention has been drawn.
      The hon. Member for Walton then said that workers would still go on strike. However, U.S. experience is that on every occasion when an 80-day cooling-off period has been applied, it has been observed. Indeed, while I was in America talking to Mr. Gleason there was in operation a cooling-off period applying to his union because of a longshoremen's dispute.
      Despite the rhetoric which hon. Gentlemen opposite have used, workers in the U.S. have carried out these court orders when they have been applied. In many cases, they have found them to be substantially to their advantage. I have no reason to suppose that the workers in

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      this country will take a different attitude. In two-thirds of the cases in which 80-day cooling-off orders have been applied in the U.S., the disputes have been resolved before the end of the cooling-off period.
      One turns to the very important question of the circumstances in which it would be used in this country. It appears from the Clause that the Minister must satisfy an independent Industrial Court of two things. First, he must satisfy it that it is conducive to the settlement of a dispute that there should be a 60-day cooling off period and that it will assist in securing resolution of the dispute. Second, he must show that the strike has caused or would cause grave injury to the national economy, imperil national security, endanger a substantial number of lives or expose a substantial number of persons to disease or personal injury.
      If the Secretary of State can satisfy the court that those things are at risk if the strike continues, will hon. Members opposite really tramp through the Lobbies tonight to suggest, in circumstances where in other countries two-thirds of the disputes have been resolved by an 80-day cooling-off period, that there should not here be applied a cooling-off period in cases in which there would be grave injury to the national economy, with lives and national security endangered? Do they consider that it is very important for a trade union to be allowed to continue with a strike—a strike which, if there were a cooling-off period, it could renew afterwards—regardless of the national economy, lives or security? If they do, they have reduced to a sorry state their assessment of what is in the interests of either their members or the nation, which hon. Members presumably seek to support.
      Mr. Greville Janner: One strange feature of the debate, and especially of the speech of the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell), is that it has been so often without regard to the wording of the Clauses which we are considering. The problem was well expressed by the hon. Member who said that it was honed so much that this process would be used sparingly because in his view the success of these Clauses would depend on their sparing use.
      On the proper interpretation of Clause 124 read together with Clause 125, a
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      Secretary of State has a complete and absolute discretion when he brings this matter to the court. I most respectfully disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee). A Secretary of State who is anxious to use this procedure will be able to do so in connection with almost any dispute, actual or potential, as he sees fit. Whereas a Secretary of State has a complete discretion, the court does not have a complete discretion. The court is given only a discretion to consider the matter on the basis stated, and then it "shall" make an order. It is not given a discretion. The judge is not given the right to decide whether or not he thinks it proper or right to make an order. That is a right reserved for the Secretary of State, who is given far more power under these Clauses than any court.
      Let us look at the wording of the Clause in that light:
      "Where it appears to the Secretary of State"—
      this gives the Secretary of State a discretion in the matter; it is what appears to him—
      "that, in contemplation or furtherance of an industrial dispute, industrial action, consisting of a strike, any irregular industrial action short of a strike, or a lock-out, has begun or is likely to begin —".
      We have to take a trip into this new legal jungle and look back at Clause 6, which states what an irregular industrial action short of a strike is. It is a fairly broad definition.
      A Secretary of State would be in a fair position to say that a strike is likely to begin when a group of union members or a group of workers in a plant have decided that they are not satisfied with the ordinary procedures and they start consulting. Is there then likely to be some irregular industrial action? The Secretary of State will decide whether he thinks there is.
      The Secretary of State then has to look at Clause 124(2). Would this be
      "gravely injurious to the national economy"?
      It has been said that in this modern economy, in which each plant is dependent on all the others, each union on the other, and each industry on the other, it only takes a breakdown in a small

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      plant to stop a great number of other plants, and that could be, in the eyes of the Secretary of State
      "injurious to the national economy".
      Therefore, this could be applied easily and properly, within the meaning of the Clause, to almost any industrial situation which is likely to give rise to a strike. It is felt, rightly or wrongly, that any strike which is likely to give rise to cost inflation, as it described, is
      "injurious to the national economy".
      I am not considering at present whether this is right or wrong; I am considering only what power appears to be granted to any Secretary of State under the Clause.
      Mr. Cower: Does the hon. Gentleman notice the use of adjectives—for example, "gravely injurious" and "serious risk"? These are not ordinary terms.
      Mr. Janner: I have had to argue before now whether a situation or an injury was grave, whether bodily harm was actual or grievous. These are lawyers' words subject to interpretation by the courts, and it is a question of opinion as to what is or is not serious. I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because the court has to decide not beyond reasonable doubt that there is a grave risk but only that there are sufficient grounds for believing that there is such a risk. That is very different.
      Mr. Timothy Raison: Surely the crucial words are "is fulfilled", which imply some meaningfulness.
      Mr. Janner: I do not understand that intervention. The courts will have to interpret what Parliament means. God help the judges! It has been argued that the courts are creatures of Parliament. Let us use the word "creation". A new court is to be created by Parliament. It is a creation of Parliament. The judges are given the powers that we see fit to give them. Their power is not to make law but only to interpret the law as it is set forth in these Clauses.
      So the Secretary of State must decide whether there are grounds for believing, first, that some "irregular industrial
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      action" is likely to begin which—this is the second limb—may be
      "gravely injurious to the national economy"
      and, third,
      "that, having regard to all the circumstances of the industrial dispute, it would be conducive to a settlement of it by negotiation, conciliation or arbitration if the industrial action were discontinued or deferred".
      I believe that that subsection need not be there at all, because every Tory Secretary of State believes that it is more conducive to a settlement if people are not out on strike. I do not believe that the subsection is likely to present any grave problem of conscience to hon. Members opposite.
      Therefore, the Secretary of State must decide three matters. If these appear to him to be correct, once again he is given a second discretion. He—the Executive, the Government of the day, the representative of the Government—may. if he sees fit, in his absolute discretion, bring the matter before the Court.
      10.0 p.m.
      The Court is given its terms of reference in Clause 125, which says:
      "Where an application is made to the Industrial Court under section 124 of this Act, the Court, subject to its being satisfied on the evidence that there are sufficient grounds for believing that the condition specified in subsection (2) of that section is fulfilled, shall make an order".
      There are two points to note about that. The Court does not have to be satisfied that the situation is gravely injurious to the national economy, as hon. Members opposite have argued; it has only to consider whether there are sufficient grounds for believing that that is the case.
      It is one of the lowest standards of proof that I know of anywhere in English law. In civil law it is necessary to prove matters on the balance of probabilities, and in criminal law it is necessary to prove them beyond reasonable doubt. This Bill spills over into criminal law, because if the worst comes to the worst it will result in criminal sanctions being imposed upon persons who do not accept it. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I am sorry, but if things get bad enough and the law is flouted and fines are imposed and people will not pay those fines they will be in contempt. The court will not stand by and allow its orders to be flouted. No court can do that. That would bring the law into disrepute.

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      All sorts of attacks have been made upon my honourable profession, from both sides of the Committee. It is about time some lawyer on the Opposition benches expressed his fears, as one who may be instructed to argue a case concerning this Bill. I fear that the Court will not have the powers that it should have to deal with the discretion placed in the hands of the Secretary of State. If the court makes an order and that order is flouted it will impose a sanction—otherwise the law will fall into disrepute.
      The court has power to impose heavy fines, but I cannot imagine a union paying those enormous fines. That being so, it is not possible to say, "Do not bother"; the court will then be faced with a clear case of contempt, and either the court will be brought into contempt because it does not impose sanctions or orders will be made which people do not respect.
      The essence of good law is that people should respect it. We found with certain road traffic Acts how difficult it was to make laws that the public did not feel to be to their benefit and with which they were not prepared to comply. The police were placed in a difficult position.
      It is wrong to say that the judges are puppets. They do their best to apply the law, within the limitations of the powers given them by this House. The trouble with the Bill is that it does not give the court enough power, whereas it gives too much power to the Secretary of State. We are not enabling the court to curb those powers. I am not in favour of setting up a new court, and I am not in favour of these Clauses, but once we give the Secretary of State these powers it is wrong to argue that we need not worry about them because the great independent courts can curb the exercise of those powers.
      The court has to decide whether there are sufficient grounds for believing that the conditions specified are fulfilled. That is a very simple and low burden of proof. The Clause goes on to provide not that the court can make an order; not that the judge has a discretion if he sees fit to make an order; not that he, like the Secretary of State, "may" take a stand; but that the court "shall" make an order under the Clause. It is
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      absolutely mandatory for the court to make an order. To my mind, if the court has to make a mandatory order under a Clause such as this it will cause such incredible ill-feeling that it is likely to bring the law into contempt. The Government ought, primarily for that reason, to consider most carefully the wording of these provisions if they are determined to bring in the procedure at all.
      Happily—I am sure that this is agreed by hon. Members on both sides who come from my city—industrial relations in Leicester are, on the whole, good. In my view, however, legislation of this sort is likely to make those industrial relations deteriorate. It is likely to bring the courts into disrepute, and it will do infinite harm to the cause which the Government say they are pursuing.
      Mr. Tom Boardman: The hon. Gentleman is right in saying that there are happy industrial relations in the city in which our respective constituencies lie. He has referred to the powers of the Secretary of State. Would he prefer the far greater powers which have been given to the Secretary of State under "In Place of Strife" to those proposed in the Bill?
      Mr. Janner: Under the guillotine procedure we are discussing at the moment Clause 124, which I regard as very bad for the country.
      Hon. Members: Answer!
      Mr. John Page: Hon. Members are making rather heavy weather of this Clause. In the middle of his speech, when he was going through the Bill and arguing against it, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Greville Janner) was helpful in putting the most convincing case in favour of the Clause.
      I believe that Part VIII, the emergency procedures, is one of the Parts of the Bill most welcomed and looked forward to by people in the country as a whole. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee) has left, because I usually admire him and I wanted to refer to some of the difficulties which he foresaw. There is a postal workers' strike in progress now, we recently had a dispute in

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      the electricity supply industry, and previously there was the municipal workers' dispute. I should expect the Secretary of State to have applied this procedure to the first two, though I rather doubt that he would have done the same for the municipal workers' dispute. That is a matter of opinion. In the public mind, the Government seem to have too little power to deal with these disputes which can lead to national emergency.
      The Opposition say that this procedure will not work. Very well. After the Government, any Government, have tried it a couple of times and found it not successful, they will probably not use it again. It is a reserve power which they will have available to them and which I believe will be effective.
      Now, a question for my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General. Clause 124(3)(a) reads, in part:
      "Any application made by the Secretary of State … shall specify the persons (whether they are organisations of workers, officials of such organisations or other persons) appearing to the Secretary of State to be responsible"—
      and so on.
      The same kind of consideration comes in Clause 125(4). I assume that those named organisations and persons will be included in the original order. If the injunction not to induce or to continue a dispute rests upon those named persons, what will happen if persons other than those named suddenly appear on the scene during the period of 60 days? Will they be covered by the original order, or will there have to be a further application to the court?
      One of the extra advantages of Clause 124 is that it gives the period of 60 days within which a ballot under Clauses 127, 128 and 129 could take place. In the context of the strike we are having and the strikes we have had recently, that might produce a very helpful and sensible result reflecting the views of the members of the unions and other workers in the industries concerned.
      [Sir ALFRED BROUGHTON in the Chair]
      Mr. Ronald King Murray: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, North-
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      West (Mr. Greville Janner) for making such a clear speech about the wording of the Clauses. When we look at Clause 124, and particularly subsection (1)(c), we may hope that a wise Secretary of State will never call upon the provision. Subsection (1)(c) says that if
      "… having regard to all the circumstances of the industrial dispute …"
      it appears to the Secretary of State that
      "… it would be conducive to a settlement of it by negotiation …"
      certain things follow. A wise Secretary of State would at once see that this emergency procedure is doomed to failure, and, therefore, would not use it.
      My hon. Friend made a substantial point about the important subsection (2), pointing out that paragraphs (a) and (b) state very clearly two groups of grounds upon which the necessary emergency state is to be founded. Paragraph (a) contains the words
      "gravely injurious to the national economy".
      I do not dispute for the purposes of this argument that if there is an industrial dispute imperilling the national security, creating serious risk of public disorder, endangering the lives of a substantial number of persons, or exposing a substantial number of persons to serious risk of disease or personal injury, these are serious situations that a Secretary of State conscientiously doing his duty is bound to take into account to the maximum of his powers. But I doubt whether the same standards apply to the words
      "gravely injurious to the national economy".
      I disagree with the view of my hon. Friend that those are words of legal art. It seems to me that they are political words, and if they are, I doubt whether they should be construed by any court. This is a serious doubt. What have the Government Front Bench to say in reply to this criticism? How is it possible for the court to determine what is or is not
      "gravely injurious to the national economy"?
      How will it be guided? If it is just left with those words, how can it properly direct itself to the question? The inquiry under Lord Wilberforce makes perfectly clear what kind of difficulties can be envisaged if those words remain and no guidance over and above them is given to the court as to how it is to proceed.

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      10.15 p.m.
      Attention has rightly been drawn to the words of Clause 125, which have to be read with Clause 124 because they give it effect. The important words have been stressed by my hon. Friend. They state that
      "… the Court, subject to its being satisfied on the evidence that there are sufficient grounds for believing that the condition specified in subsection (2) of that section"—
      Clause 124—
      "is fulfilled, shall make an order under this section."
      Not only is the standard of proof suspect but the risk is that, once the Clause is enacted, we shall be presented with a state of affairs analogous to that which used to operate in the production of documents.
      The famous case here was the Cammell-Laird case in 1942. The conditions for the production of documents have been watered down somewhat, and a reasonable rule now operates in the courts, I understand. But in those days, and to some extent still, production of documents could be objected to by the Crown, notwithstanding that the Crown was not even a party. The appropriate Minister could certify that it would be injurious to the public interest to produce the documents or to disclose their contents.
      I hope that the Government will deal with this second criticism. Are we to find that the court is to be satisfied by evidence as flimsy as that the grounds are sufficient to believe that the condition specified in subsection (2) of Clause 124 is fulfilled? Are we to have Ministerial certificates or affidavits produced to the court stating that a situation would be gravely injurious to the national economy? If that is how it is to be done, then again this smacks of a political decision and not something worthy of a judicial decision. It seems to me that the court is to be used as part of the Executive and not as a judicial body. That is the most fundamental criticism that one can make of a proposal to set up a new court.
      My third point may not be as important as the first two points, but it is nevertheless important consequentially. Subsection (5) of Clause 125 states that an order may be made—it does not have
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      to be made—specifying certain persons who are
      "… to take such steps (whether by way of withdrawing any instructions issued by that person or those persons) … for the purpose of securing that the industrial action to which the application for the order related is discontinued or … deferred …".
      There cannot be the slightest doubt that we are face to face again with the ultimate sanction of the Bill—committal to prison for contempt of court. It has been said already, and no one can doubt it. The finger is clearly pointed at individuals who have been named by the Secretary of State in the original application. Other names can be added—and that is the answer to the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page), who posed this question.
      The important point is that people are named from the outset. Certain individuals immediately know that they are at peril. Hon. Members opposite may think this right, but we do not. What is important to notice is that the ultimate sanction is clear—committal for contempt if they are outside the four corners of the order. Such orders will be sweeping.
      What will happen? Let us face the realities. The situation will be that of emergency, in which there is a disagreement, no doubt, about how far it is an emergency. On the one side, people will say that there are no gravely injurious consequences from this threatened industrial strike—that it is not even a threatened strike but an industrial dispute which may never result in a strike. On the other side, the Secretary of State will be saying that the situation is one of grave national peril.
      There is bound to be that kind of disagreement, and in that kind of situation feelings will run high, and they will run high amongst many people, and those people can be swept up into the network of Clause 125(5) and they will be swept to one destination, which has already been mentioned, and that destination will be prison. It is all very well to have in prisons for civil reasons persons as though in criminal cases, but have the Government considered that under that Clause they will need new prisons, hundreds of new civil prisons?

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      If this is not that sort of situation, how are we to deal with the matter? The Government have to face the fact which is clear to us on this side—it certainly seems too clear with me, if not to hon. Members opposite—that the law of contempt will undergo very considerable changes if this Clause goes through. It
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      is no use praying in aid the fact that at the moment the courts rarely use this sanction, because in the future the situation will be transformed.
      I ask the Government to consider these three matters seriously. They seem to me important, and I should particularly like the Government's reaction to the first two.
      Mr. Gower: I was thinking that the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Murray) was speaking with great moderation, and I was rather sorry that he ended in that extravagant manner, calculated to arouse alarm and despondency, when he talked about criminal sanctions, because he knows perfectly well that if he or I went to the tailor and ordered a suit and did not then pay for it but had it on credit there might come a time when he or I would be faced with that sort of criminal sanction over a civil debt.
      The hon. and learned Member was spreading alarm and despondency rather as was the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Ted Fletcher) when he disparaged the position of this new court and described it as a puppet being created by the Secretary of State. I do hope that the hon. Member will regret those remarks on thinking about them, and that he will realise that this legislation will set up a new division of the High Court which will be consistent with the rest of our High Court of Justice which has had such a splendid position of impartiality and, indeed, of interpreting Statutes against the Executive Government of the day on many occasions. If there is any inadequacy in this Bill, if there is something in this Bill which the court will deem should be interpreted against the Government, I am satisfied that the Court will go against the Secretary of State or whomsoever appears on behalf of the Government.
      Mr. James A. Dunn: The hon. Member will recall that following the passage of the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act the interpretation placed upon the Act later did not go against the Government but rather perpetuated some things which the Government did not want, and we feel the same about this Clause.
      Mr. Gower: The hon. Gentleman and I can discuss that on another occasion. It is rather involved.
      I think that this Clause is a valuable and sensible addition to the Bill, and I hope that a majority of people in this Committee will feel it to be so, including hon. Members on the Opposition side. They have asked: Why do we need to include powers of this nature in this
      Vol. 812
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      Bill? Others have gone further and said: Why do we need the Bill? It arises, of course, from the history of many years. The hon. and learned Member for Leith must be aware that his own party, when in Government, were deeply concerned about this matter, were deeply concerned about the state of industrial relations, were deeply concerned about the ills of the British economy. Otherwise they would not have gone to such great trouble, setting up a Commission, as they did, and then going into the matter and drawing up a whole document including proposals for a cooling-down period.
      I respectfully suggest that nothing could be more valuable in certain cases—not in all cases, but in certain cases—than a cooling-down period. This is not designed to prevent a strike permanently. It is designed to lessen the powers of workers to strike: it is designed to give time for cooling off when the attitudes of the parties to the dispute might harden.
      We have seen evidence again and again that once a strike has been called and people have ceased working, attitudes harden and people take up positions which make it more difficult for a settlement to be achieved. Is it not conceivable that a cooling-down period of not more than 60 days will in certain circumstances be most valuable?
      Sufficient guidelines are set down to achieve the control over the actions of the Secretary of State and of the Executive which is desirable. The Secretary of State has first to satisfy himself of certain premises. This is not an entirely free political choice for him. It is similar to the action of a Minister acting in an appellate jurisdiction in a planning case, where he does not exercise his political function. He would be deciding whether the circumstances would justify him in making application to the court, and the final decision would be for the court.
      The requirements set down are fairly high. There must be a serious risk of public disorder, not mere risk. The industrial action must be gravely injurious to the national economy, not merely injurious or likely to be injurious. The industrial action must be likely to imperil national security, endanger the lives of a substantial number of persons or expose

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      a substantial number of persons to serious risk of disease or personal injury. These are fairly high requirements, and any Government would be foolish not to provide in the Bill for a standstill of up to 60 days.
      Mr. Ted Fletcher: Does the hon. Gentleman consider that the dustmen's strike would come into that category?
      Mr. Gower: There will be strikes of all kinds which will come into one or other of the categories, but it will be for the Secretary of State to satisfy himself of certain conditions. Thereafter it will be for the Industrial Court to be satisfied that there are sufficient grounds.
      After all that, the maximum effect will be not a limitation of the democratic right of people to take part in an industrial strike or to take preparatory action, but merely an order laying upon them a reasonable duty to forgo their democratic rights for a limited period specified by the court, which at the most could be 60 days. These provisions are sufficiently circumscribed to achieve the result which is required by two or three of my hon. Friends; namely, that the power should not be used too freely.
      In that setting this provision can be a valuable and useful addition to the Bill, and in certain circumstances it could prevent some of the abuses which have happened in the past, abuses which have been most exasperating to people of all parties. Not only Conservatives and Liberals but many Labour supporters are deeply anxious about the future welfare of this country, and hope that this Bill will be a great success.
      10.30 p.m.
      Mr. John Mendelson: One of the features of this Bill which has concerned many people in the trade union movement has been the wide definition that is often introduced. This has, naturally, given rise to a number of contributions in which wider claims are made. The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Tom King) at one point argued that some 25 per cent. of capital now employed in Britain was American-owned and, by implication, he seemed to be saying that this was a reason for introducing some new legislation that was either copied
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      from or was very close to the Taft-Hartley laws.
      I would not attempt to burden the Solicitor-General with the sins of his supporters, but I warn him that at the end of the day it will be his duty to justify the introduction of these provisions. He will be able to do so only by proving to the Committee and to the country that they will lead to better industrial relations in the future. That is what this is all about. He stands or falls on being able to adduce such reasonable evidence.
      Many hon. Members have referred to their experience of trade union matters in America, but that does not mean a priori that they have the right to believe that their opinion has more right to be considered than the opinion of hon. Members who have gained their industrial experience in this country. We must look at the facts of the situation and the circumstances in which these provisions are to be introduced, and must seek to show why hon. Members on this side of the Committee are opposed to them.
      The Donovan Commission is helpful in this respect. Paragraph 421 says:
      "The record as regards the use of the Taft-Hartley procedure is as follows. In all but one of 24 cases in which injunctions were granted a standstill period was successfully imposed."
      There is no need to talk about the courts being creatures of the Government and of the President of the United States, but the evidence is clearly that when the President wanted an injunction he got it.
      Paragraph 422 says:
      "In the United Kingdom when a major strike occurs or appears imminent the Government has a wide range of action which it can take if it feels it desirable to intervene."
      The Commission outlines the wide range of action available to the Government.
      In paragraph 423 the Commission says:
      "The record under the Taft-Hartley Act in the United States has been worse than the record in our country. We have been singularly free from strikes in recent years which would have come within the scope of a 'Taft-Hartley' kind of procedure."
      That is clear, straight-forward language produced by a Commission which studied the subject for nearly three years. I see no reason that I or anybody else should seek to substitute ourselves as

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      being necessarily better informed than that Commission. The purpose of a Royal Commission is to carry some element of credibility and acceptability as a body of reasonable and intelligent men who have been given this job by the Government. The Donovan Commission came to this conclusion, and it is a valuable one. I see no reason why it should not be introduced into the record.
      If that is so, the burden of proof is again on the shoulders of the Government. Why do they wish to ignore that the record under Taft-Hartley in the United States has been much worse than our own, and why do they want to say that the instruments at the disposal of Her Majesty's Government are insufficient, and that further measures must be introduced; for example, a cooling-off period?
      The second point is one which causes many hon. Members on this side of the Committee great concern. It is the loose drafting of the Clause which contains, among others, the phrase "any irregular industrial action"—[Interruption.] I carry the support of hon. Gentlemen opposite when I merely quote a phrase from the Bill. I know that many of them want the widest possible interference with the rights of trade unions to represent the interests of their members. The Solicitor-General admitted today that the Government had been under pressure to introduce far wider and more far-reaching regulations on picketing. He did not want to do that, but he has introduced some part of what was required. In view of that, 1 think that I can safely ignore the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite on this matter. We are dealing with the Government.
      The Government have included the phrase "any irregular industrial action". That causes us concern. Like other Clauses which are widely drawn, this introduces an element which will make it very easy for the Secretary of State to make up his mind about when he will invoke these powers. There used to be criticism about a Secretary of State trying to take too much power unto himself. Here is a case in point. As this Clause and the following one are drawn, if the Secretary of State once makes up his mind that a situation with which he is dealing comes under the provisions of
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      Clause 124, the presumption is very strong that the court shall then follow him and agree with his proposition.
      I say that the presumption is very strong. I do not say that the courts are automatically obliged to agree with the Secretary of State. We know about the way in which the courts act and about their independence. That is common ground. But if the word "shall" is used in a subsequent Clause, the presumption is that they shall follow the Secretary of State unless there are overwhelming countervailing reasons to prove that the Secretary of State has acted contrary to all that is reasonable.
      Mr. Percival: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has got rid of the suggestion that the courts are not independent. But he has it wrong when he talks about presumptions. The court has to be "satisfied on the evidence". Evidence has to be presented by the Secretary of State in support of his application. That evidence has to be so good that the judge is able to say at the end of the day that he is satisfied on the evidence. The presumption is the other way round.
      Mr. Mendelson: There is nothing about that in the Bill. Those are the hon. and learned Gentleman's words.
      Mr. David Waddington rose—
      Mr. Mendelson: The hon. Gentleman must give me a chance to deal with the intervention of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. Percival). Those are the hon. and learned Gentleman's words. I am saying that, because the word "shall" is used in a subsequent Clause, the presumption is that the court shall, having satisfied itself, be under an obligation to do what the Secretary of State is proposing. What does "any irregular industrial action" mean? Where is this extension of the Secretary of State's powers justified? Nowhere.
      So the only reason why the Government want this is to reduce the bargaining power of the trade unions during or in the approach to an industrial dispute. Of course this does not cause any alarm and despondency to lion. Members opposite. Many of them have said this many times. They are interested in reducing the bargaining power of the unions. But

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      they do not admit it in these debates. I do not see why they should not. We on this side have always admitted that we want to keep the bargaining power of the unions strong and vigorous and unfettered, because they are the shield of the working people.
      I cannot understand hon. Members' reluctance to come clean, since they often represent employers' federations and say that they are keen to see these powers reduced. That is not an insult. This House would have been meaningless in the past without the representation of interests, and I do not see why hon. Members opposite should be offended if I say that that is their interest—[Interruption.] At least I seem to be carrying one charming hon. Member with me on this.
      The Solicitor-General also has to prove, in opposition to the view of Donovan, that we would not suffer from the kind of disputes which the Americans have suffered under the Taft-Hartley Act—
      Mr. Kenneth Lewis rose—
      Mr. Mendelson: No, I will not give way. I had some experience of the kind of intervention which the hon. Gentleman made in my hon. Friend's speech.
      The burden of proof here is on the Solicitor-General, if we are to be free of a Taft-Hartley situation. An example of the other powers at the Secretary of State's disposal is the court of inquiry, which has the advantage of great flexibility. It is not a blunt instrument: its function is not to hand down an award. It is not coercive, but points in the direction of the settlement. When a Minister of Labour or Secretary of State for Employment decides to set up a court of inquiry, he is not taking sides.
      Peaceful and effective industrial relations are threatened if the side representing the work people suspects that the Secretary of State has moved to one side and is using coercive instruments to weaken the efforts of the unions to represent their members. The instruments which Donovan examined, which have been available in this country for many years, are particularly designed not to create that suspicion—conciliation, courts of inquiry, assessors, tribunals and so on.
      When I argued it with him, the Secretary of State himself did not dissent from
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      my general proposition that he should always be in a neutral position. Like the Lord Chancellor, he is in a special position. He could not perform his function properly, if he were seen to be leaning on one side or the other. [Laughter.] I do not know whether the two hon. Gentlemen who are so amused by this have graced our proceedings before. I have not seen them before. They seem to have strayed in from some other room where they usually spend this hour of the day. But those who have been here following the debate will recall that at least on this point the Secretary of State and I agreed.
      The right hon. Gentleman must explain why, with these flexible instruments and in the light of what Donovan has said about the American experience with Taft-Hartley and ours without it, he finds it necessary to impose this procedure on our industrial relations.
      10.45 p.m.
      The Solicitor-General: The basic case for these proposals is to be found in the analysis made by many people but put most succinctly by Mr. Andrew Shonfield in his addition to the Report of the Donovan Commission. [Interruption.] We will come to the more telling witnesses later. He said:
      "With the growing dependence of people on the reliable performance of services required for tolerable living in crowded urban communities, the employment of collective power of groups of producers to disrupt the lives of people who have no means of helping themselves raises new problems. It is no longer possible to accept the traditional notion of the individual workplace as a separate and largely autonomous estate, where employers and employees are able to conduct their quarrels with little or no regard to the effects of what they do …".
      That is a situation which has been impressing itself upon the people of this country and upon Governments of all parties, and it is from that kind of reasoning that we go on to consider the proposals before the Committee.
      These are proposals designed to meet or avert the possible impact upon the national economy or the national health or safety of a strike or threatened strike or lockout which could be serious or prolonged. The important point made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. Percival), who has studied the whole of this aspect of our proposals with great care, is that this is designed for exceptional cases

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      which are likely to inflict serious damage far outside the range of the people affected by the initial dispute.
      Several hon. Members have raised the point that these provisions are intended to apply to irregular industrial action short of a strike. That is defined in Clause 6. The only point I need make is that irregular industrial action short of a strike which is in breach of contract can, as the Committee and the country knows, be as serious and as damaging as a full-scale strike or lock-out and can call for the application of these remedies. As the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) said to my right hon. Friend on Monday, the findings of the Wilberforce Committee about the recent electricity go-slow include this in paragraph 11.9:
      "We reached the conclusion that in many areas what happened was not a 'work to rule' but a breach of rule, that is a breach of the normal arrangements for the employment of the workers."
      That is a clear and recent illustration of the potentially damaging and serious effects of irregular industrial action short of a strike and amply justifies the inclusion of that idea within these provisions.
      Given that this provision is designed to meet that kind of situation, I would address some remarks to hon. Members opposite who suggest that the allocation of political discretion and judicial decision-taking powers is not here correctly worked out. When we look at the provisions of Clause 124(1) the matter which remains exclusively for the Secretary of State to satisfy himself about is that contained in 124(1)(c):
      "that, having regard to all the circumstances of the industrial dispute, it would be conducive to a settlement of it by negotiation, conciliation or arbitration if the industrial action were discontinued or deferred."
      It is essentially a matter for the expertise of the Secretary of State, who must assess what the prospects are of a further delay in relation to the onset of a strike in his desire to help the parties towards a conciliation. It is
      "in contemplation or furtherance of an industrial dispute, industrial action, consisting of a strike, any irregular industrial action short of a strike, or a lockout, has begun or is likely to begin"
      that the Secretary of State must make up his mind and form his first view, but the Industrial Court must be satisfied in accordance with Clause 125(1),
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      and the only area left to his experienced political assessment is the likelihood of a delay contributing to a settlement of the impending dispute. It is in relation to the other matters mentioned in the Clause, where something may
      "be gravely injurious to the national economy … or … imperial national security"
      that he must go before the Industrial Court and satisfy it.
      The right hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee) suggested that he would find it difficult to see how any Secretary of State could ever conclude favourably towards action in relation to Clause 124(1), while the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Greville Janner) said he could hardly see a situation in which a Secretary of State could fail to conclude in favour of action. As in so many matters, the truth lies between these two extreme views; that the Secretary of State could certainly form his view, but that he would then have to satisfy the Industrial Court about it.
      Let us consider the rôle which the Industrial Court will play. The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Murray) suggested that to invite the court to consider whether action would be
      "gravely injurious to the national economy … or … imperil national security"
      would be to leave the court with a political and not a legal question to be considered. However, the Committee must remember the kind of tests and questions which the Restrictive Practices Court has been facing and answering in the 15 years since it was established by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith). That court has not become, any more than this one will become, a creature of the Government. It will need in approaching these questions, as Clause 125(1) points out to:
      "be satisfied on the evidence that there are sufficient grounds for believing that the condition specified … is fulfilled".
      The effect of that provision is clear. The Secretary of State, if in his judgment he decides to apply, will have to make out a convincing case before the Industrial Court—which will be as independent as any other court in this country—on the basis of reliable and adequate evidence.

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      Hon. Gentlemen opposite have begun to suggest that this will be thrusting into the hands of the Minister an intolerable discretion, that the matter will be entirely at large, that in any event the situation does not call for this procedure and that the definition of what is a serious or gravely injurious prospect is inadequate.
      This compels me to return to the proposals which were made by the last Labour Government. I remind the Committee—and I shall shortly be inviting the help of hon. Gentlemen opposite over this—that one of the immediate steps proposed in the interim Industrial Relations Bill which the Labour Government had decided to bring before the House was the implementation of the conciliation pause, or cooling-off period, of, in that case, 28 rather than 60 days.
      Mrs. Castle: To which interim Bill is the hon. and learned Gentleman referring?
      The Solicitor-General: I am referring to the right hon. Lady's speech the day after her right hon. Friend the then Chancellor of the Exchequer had abandoned the incomes policy to introduce a Bill in its place, and on 16th April, 1969, the right hon. Lady spoke of
      "The interim Industrial Relations Bill which the Government have decided to bring before the House".
      One of the matters to be included in that was this:
      "The third immediate step which we need to take is to secure a change in attitudes towards the honouring of collective agreements".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th April, 1969; Vol. 781, c. 1181–3.]
      In that context, hon. Gentlemen opposite were still putting forward the conciliation pause proposal in paragraph 93 of "In Place of Strife". I know not how far the drafting of that interim Bill had proceeded, but it was being pressed forward with great urgency by the Labour Government. Indeed, it was to be introduced, we were told by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, in that Session of Parliament. So one imagines that some progress must have been made towards the preparation of that Bill—I know not how much.
      I ask the right hon. Lady to help the Committee on this matter. It is being
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      suggested that the powers in Clauses 124 and 125 are unduly discretionary and leave too much in the hands of the Secretary of State, that they define with insufficient clarity the risks in respect of which they have to be exercised and that they are insufficiently controlled by the court which has to be satisfied that the situation exists.
      I remind the Committee of the way in which it was put forward by the right hon. Lady in the situation we are now discussing, where this conciliation pause was necessary. The method proposed was to give the Secretary of State a discretionary reserve power to secure a conciliation pause. The power would have been used only if the strike or lock-out continued and the effects were likely to be serious. How tight and precise is that formulation? Is it not ironic to find hon. Members opposite criticising us for precision in drafting when we have spelt out clearly that the court has to be satisfied on the evidence that there are sufficient grounds for believing that the strike or lock-out, as set out in Clause 124(2)—
      Mr. Heffer: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman please differentiate between a White Paper, which contained proposals for discussion, and a Bill before the Committee, which he wishes to put into the law of this land? I have said before, and I repeat, that it is a mask for the complete bankruptcy of the Government's ideas.
      The Solicitor-General: The Committee appreciates the extent to which the hon. Gentleman is impelled to rise to his feet whenever one refers back to that proposal. The right hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker), both in contrast to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heifer), voted in favour of "In Place of Strife" as a basis for legislation. The right hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Doncaster were at the Department of Employment and Productivity, as it then was. The right hon. Lady, who was telling the House about the interim Bill to be introduced, may be in a position to tell the Committee exactly how they were going to control a situation the effects of which were likely to be serious if they have improvements to offer in respect of subsection (2).

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      I invite consideration of another aspect. It is suggested that the Secretary of State is being given too wide a discretion. The Committee sees plainly the extent to which a court independent of the executive would have to be satisfied on this matter to which I have referred. Perhaps the Committee can be told whether the discretionary reserve power which the right hon. Lady would have claimed to make an order would or would not have been subject to the approval of any court. The answer is plain. No court would have had the power to consider that. The best to be hoped for would have been that such an order might have been subject to review by the House, by an affirmative or negative Resolution, but not action.
      I invite the Committee to reach the conclusion that consideration by a court independent of the Secretary of State whether or not the test had been fulfilled is likely to be a great deal more objective, tight and specific than the consideration which might have been given by hon. Members opposite if they had been invited to go through the Lobbies time after time endorsing orders made by the right hon. Lady under her interim Industrial Relations Bill, in the same way as they were required to do so in respect of orders made under the Prices and Incomes Act. What kind of independent scrutiny or control would that have been compared with that suggested by us?
      Mr. Harold Walker: The hon. and learned Gentleman has challenged us on this point. Surely there is a fundamental difference between the responsibility to the Committee, and, subsequently, the electorate, of a Minister for what are Governmental decisions for which he is answerable to Parliament and, on the other hand, the proposal which the hon. and learned Gentleman is putting to the Committee which would enable a Minister to shelter behind the decision of a court and thus avoid answering for his actions, evading responsibility on the ground that this was the decision of the court.
      11.0 p.m.
      The Solicitor-General: Of course there is a difference. The Minister, proceeding as proposed in "In Place of Strife", would have had to come to the House of Commons and would have called upon
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      her loyal supporters to endorse the Order she was bringing before the House of Commons. That she may or may not have achieved, but that would have been the only hoop through which she would have had to pass.
      Under our proposals, the Minister must reach the conclusion that he may prove this to the court. He must go before the court and satisfy the court. He may still be called upon to justify in the House of Commons the wisdom or unwisdom of his decision to apply. Hon. Members can imagine the situation which could arise if the Secretary of State, having decided to apply to the court, found that he was unable to satisfy the court. At least there would have been independent scrutiny challenging him and showing him that he had made a completely wrong judgment. That would be a far more effective discipline and sanction than that which the House of Commons alone could have exercised. That is the strength of our proposal, in contrast to that put forward by the previous Government.
      The other criticism which has been made is that these proposals will in some way impair the Secretary of State's freedom of action in this kind of situation. As the Donovan Commission said, there is much to be said for leaving the Secretary of State with a variety of alternative approaches; and nothing in this departs from or in any way erodes the Secretary of State's power to consider the appointment of a court of inquiry, to undertake conciliation, or to undertake any of the other measures which he can currently undertake. What this does is to give him an additional weapon, plus the ballot. It gives the Secretary of State additions to the flexibility of his armoury. It increases the room for manoeuvre. It gives him useful additions or alternatives.
      Mr. Orme: At the beginning of his remarks the hon. and learned Gentleman prayed in aid the minority report of Mr. Andrew Shonfield. Did Mr. Shonfield dissent from the Donovan Commission's recommendation that this matter should not be brought within the scope of legal operation?
      The Solicitor-General: Mr. Shonfield proposed a number of additional alternative remedies. His diagnosis was

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      accurate, and it was presumably on the basis of his diagnosis that the right hon. Lady and her hon. Friends went further than Donovan in the areas we have just been discussing. We are not frozen to the methods proposed by Donovan.
      This is an additional remedy, to which the country is entitled in this exceptional, serious, situation. It is an equally balanced remedy in respect of strikes or lock-outs. The point made by the hon. Member for Walton and which may be made by the right hon. Lady was that at least the conciliation clause provided for the return to the status quo. This is the one distinction which the right hon. Lady drew in a previous debate.
      The point to be remembered is that the argument about whether to return to the status quo can give rise to certain strikes when management have made a decision to the advantage of the employees. The kind of strike with which these proposals are likely to be concerned is not likely to be the kind of strike—
      Mr. Heffer: There are different kinds of strike.
      The Solicitor-General: Exactly. So the distinction becomes plain. I am glad to have that acknowledged. This kind of strike is the serious—quite probably national or very large-scale—strike posing a serious threat, almost certainly founded upon a claim for changes in wages and conditions of employment. It is in that kind of strike where the return to the status quo, as hon Members opposite acknowledge, is not likely to be a relevant question.
      Mr. Harold Walker: If the hon. and learned Gentleman is intending to continue making this comparison it is important to get the thing right. He will recall that one of the strikes that had a profound impact upon the motor car industry at about the time of "In Place of Strife" was the Girling strike. That strike was concerned not about "who does what" but about the suspension of certain individuals. In that kind of situation the issue was the arbitrary action of the employer, and we would have required the employer to return to the status quo as a basis for a return to work. In that situation—the kind with which the Clause is intended to deal—what would the Solicitor-
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      General require the employer to do? Would he require him to carry on this misdemeanour while telling the boys to go back to work?
      The Solicitor-General: That is a different kind of strike—as the hon. Member for Walton said. I am not sure about that strike. The scale would have to be examined closely. I cannot say whether the Girling strike would have qualified as one that was gravely injurious to the national economy. It certainly did a great deal of damage, as the hon. Member for Walton knows through his connection with Merseyside.
      It is an exceptional case that would require a return to the status quo in that situation. It is probably the other kind of strike with which the Measure proposes to deal. But what we are arguing about is apparently not the admissibility of taking, on behalf of society, powers to stay or postpone the commencement of a strike which can be doing serious damage—
      Mr. Orme: We are dissenting completely from that.
      Mr. John Mendelson: We have been consistent in our opposition.
      The Solicitor-General: The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) is entitled to say that he has been consistent in his opposition to almost anything. I am conducting my discussion with those of his hon. and right hon. Friends who have in the past put forward proposals designed to meet this kind of thing. I suggest that these proposals are fairly balanced and sensibly designed to deal with the kind of strikes that threaten the gravest risk to the economy and the safety and health of this country.
      I come now to the other point raised by the hon. Member for Walton. It has been suggested that simply because these proposals are put forward as a result of a study of some comparable proposals that have worked in the United States they are to be condemned. My hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell) and my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Tom King) advanced arguments to justify these proposals, in this form, being adopted in this country. It has been said more than once from the benches opposite

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      that the North American experience does not justify any kind of consideration being given to the proposals that are working there.
      I remind the Committee of the facts: since 1947 there have been 29 cases where a board of inquiry has been appointed. Under the 1947 Taft-Hartley Act applications for injunctions have been made in 25 cases. That is about one a year, which indicates how exceptional they are. In each of the 25 cases where injunctions have been granted they have been complied with. During the period when the injunction has been in force a settlement has taken place in 12 out of the 25 cases; a partial settlement has taken place in three out of the 25, and in 10 out of the 25 the settlement took place after the injunction had been discharged.
      Those figures are not very different from those in respect of a slightly earlier period. Paragraph 421 of the Donovan Report says:
      "In sixteen cases"—
      but of 24—
      "a settlement was reached during or shortly after the stand-still period, but in seven cases stoppages did take place or were resumed after it."
      On either analysis, therefore, on the up-to-date figures or the Donovan figures, it is plain, as my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke said, that in two-thirds of the situations the strike or lockout was postponed, so that it never took place. How anyone can argue that that is a record of failure I fail to follow.
      Mr. Orme: What does the Donovan Report carry on to say?
      The Solicitor-General: The Donovan Report carries on to reach a conclusion which does not at all follow from the facts set out. It is surely plain that if a remedy has been used and has been successful in two cases out of three, it is at least not something to be discarded on the basis of prejudice. It is for that reason that we have considered the same kind of approach to this problem in this country. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Southport drew attention to the fact that in the longshoremen's dispute the reason why, in that industry, it has not been successful in North America is that it has been over-used.
      718
      It has become part of the bargaining process. But in the other sectors and other industries where it has been employed in North America it has been a useful and valuable addition to the remedies available in the hands of the Government of the United States. It is upon the same basis that I commend it to this country in the context of this Bill.
      This is not a slavish copy or imitation either of the proposals made in "In Place of Strife" designed to the same end, or of the proposals in effect for many years in North America.
      Mr. John Mendelson: I do not want to be discourteous to the hon. and learned Gentleman. He should know that very well. But, on the American experience, would he not agree that it has led to very long strikes, carefully planned to take in the cooling-off period, and that that is one of the reasons why the Donovan Commission came to its conclusions. How can the hon. and learned Gentleman ignore that?
      The Solicitor-General: I do not ignore it. The difference between the nature and length of American strikes as opposed to our strikes is something that we have commented on in the context of other debates. But it is not attributable to the existence of the 60-day cooling-off period of the Taft-Hartley Act. The Taft-Hartley cooling-off period as I have told the Committee, has achieved success and the avoidance of strikes in two-thirds of the cases.
      The fact that American strikes tend to be longer than ours but far less frequent is because there is a record of stability during long-term contracts and the parties prepare for the bargaining situation at the end of the contract. That is certainly a much healthier aspect. But it has nothing whatever to do with these proposals.
      Mr. Heffer: On the question of the number of disputes settled by the cooling-off period, may I put this point to the hon. and learned Gentleman? A considerable number of these disputes had not reached the stage of becoming actual strikes. Therefore, how can the Solicitor-General say that in this country our normal D.E.P. conciliation machinery

      719
      could have been used in those circumstances without having to apply for a cooling-off period? This is something that no one will ever know, but we would have used an entirely different kind of machinery. Therefore, the argument that the method to which the hon. and learned Gentleman has referred has proved successful is quite invalid because we may well have arrived at a successful conclusion without the cooling-off period being used.
      The Solicitor-General: The comment that I make on that intervention is that I hope the Committee has noticed the extent to which the hon. Member has shifted his ground completely. The case with which he started the debate on this Clause was to the effect that everybody could see that this procedure had not worked in North America. He has now, I understand, suggested that the reason why the procedure has been successful in North America is that the whole of the rest of the system is different there. He cannot have his argument both ways. Does the hon. Gentleman think that conciliation is something known only in St. James's Square in this country? Of course not. [Interruption.] The United States Federal mediation and conciliation service has a long experience and has done a great deal of work in this kind of situation, just as corresponding services have done comparable service in other countries.
      What we are arguing about here is whether, when we have mediation, conciliation, courts of inquiry and all the other remedies, it is legitimate and necessary to have this additional remedy. I put it to the Committee that in the conditions facing this country today it is plain beyond argument that there are some strikes and lockouts, some threats of strikes and lockouts, which pose such a grave threat to the economy and the safety of the country that it is not only sensible but vital for these new powers to be given to the Secretary of State, subject to the careful control which is set out in the subsequent Clauses.
      The case for that is proved by the experience in North America, by the extent to which the last Government moved in the same direction, and by the extent to which these proposals have long been
      720
      before the people of this country and were overwhelmingly endorsed at the last General Election.
      11.15 p.m.
      Mr. Eric Ogden: The Solicitor-General has given a number of general answers to the general questions and criticisms which have been put to him. In the main, he gave patient answers, but I wish that he had a little more patience and allowed perhaps two other hon. Members on this side—my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) and myself—who were on their feet, to put one or two more questions to him before he replied to the debate.
      I have some specific questions to put. Throughout his speech, the hon. and learned Gentleman related his argument, as did other hon. Members opposite, to the general words,
      "gravely injurious to the national economy, to imperil national security, or to create a serious risk of public disorder"—
      or to the other general phrases in subsection (2)(b).
      The hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. John Page) claimed that with all the questions facing his constituents on prices, unemployment, commuter travel and the rest, this was the one Clause for which they were clamouring and there would be jubilation after it had been passed. At least, the Solicitor-General confirmed his other remark, that these are reserve powers to be used in only a few cases, or, perhaps, never used at all.
      Only one hon. Member opposite gave a concrete example of a situation in which the Secretary of State might use these powers, and he spoke of a work-to-rule in the National Radar Defence Corps. Incidentally, I have never understood why working to rule should be wrong, except that it may indicate that there is something wrong with the rules. Working to rule of itself seems perfectly right in any circumstances, but, at any rate, that was the example which the hon. Gentleman gave.
      Will the Solicitor-General give examples—they must be in the Government's mind—of the kind of situation in which they would use these powers? They may wish not to be too specific, but it is not unreasonable to ask that they spell out the

      721
      circumstances, or give examples of particular circumstances, in which an industrial dispute would be brought within the Clause.
      Do they envisage that they would use these powers to refer the Post Office workers' strike to the Industrial Court, or would they decide to wait until the strike had been joined by the telephonists and telegraphists?
      Another example: if the National Union of Mineworkers proposed a ballot on a national strike, would that be a situation in which the Government might have to invoke the powers? If only the Yorkshire or South Wales miners talked of coming out on strike, they might not wish to use them. If the electrical workers in the engineering industry talked of a work-to-rule they would not want to use them, but if those workers came out on full official strike they would have to use them.
      Conservative hon. Members have made general arguments that could mean almost anything to anyone. Very few people could disagree with the wording of paragraphs (a) and (b), but what do the Government mean by them? Their interpretation may be very different from ours.
      If the Solicitor-General could give me some indication of the industrial circumstances in which the powers might be invoked, that would be helpful. It would certainly be interesting.
      Mr. Hugh D. Brown: I have heard practically all the debate on the Clause, and, unlike some hon. Members, I have listened to much of the debate on the other Clauses. This is the first time I have felt myself drawn into the debate, because it is an interesting and very important subject.
      I have been impressed by the style, if not always the content, of the contributions by the Solicitor-General. The content of his speech was singularly weak tonight. I do not feel obliged by anything that my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) proposed at any time, or by what was discussed within the Parliamentary Labour Party or with the T.U.C. Governments can be wrong, including Conservative Governments. So that line of argument takes us nowhere, though it might be clever debating and might make an impression on hon. Members opposite, who do not understand
      722
      some of the problems put forward in "In Place of Strife", to certain parts of which I take strong exception. It is a wee bit pointless if, in a serious discussion on a serious subject that is the best the Government Front Bench can do. I am not concerned with what the Labour Government or individual Labour Members proposed. I am concerned about the effect of this Bill on industrial relations as from now. While the Solicitor-General might think that he is scoring debating points, he is not impressing me with this line of argument.
      I recognise, as I am sure every hon. Member does, that there are serious problems when one small group of people can hold the country to ransom. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Before hon. Members opposite start applauding, let me expand a little. If it is true that we want to go back to the good old days when, the miners could come out against an individual mineowner with no serious dislocation in the community, fair enough. But we are not going back to those days. Modern developments in industry or society inevitably mean that a few key people in any group of industries have a power held by no group of comparable workers 50 or 100 years ago.
      The answer is not to ask: What small group of workers can we try to bring. under legislation to deny them the right that other workers have? This is a problem that we must all face up to. That solution denies the principle that all men are reasonable. [HON. MEMBERS: "They are not".] There are some people in business circles, in owning circles, who have such power that they can, influence the price of many commodities, and the law has to some extent tried to prevent this happening. Power does not lie just in the hands of a small group of
      unidentified, apparently irresponsible anarchists who can disrupt the whole nation. I am sorry that the Solicitor-General has left the Chamber, although I realise that he has been here almost since this debate started.
      I am not a lawyer or even an ex-trade union official. I am just an ordinary Member of Parliament who likes to be given some examples. If we cannot deal in hypothetical situations, at least the Government should try to apply some of their theories to strikes which have taken

      723
      place in the past. What was the example which the hon. and learned Gentleman gave? The power workers' dispute. What did his case rest on? Not that they had worked to rule but that there had been a breach of the rules.
      I worked in the Post Office, subject to all the rules of being a civil servant and the rest, and if I had had anything to do with the Post Office dispute I would have got the workers to work to rule. They could have achieved virtually the same effect, certainly over a period of four or five weeks, as they have achieved by completely withdrawing their labour. That would have been working to rule. Would the Post Office dispute be caught up in this machinery? At what stage and how does the Department first of all decide that a situation cannot be conducive to a settlement by negotiation? Where does it get its information? Is there some kind of notification procedure whereby, when there are rumblings about a strike, the Department is informed? Who will inform'? Not the workers. The employers will inform. The first obstacle to overcome is how the Department gets to know whether and at what stage it should come into the picture. I do not think that that is necessarily a good start to the procedure. It is interposing some kind of machinery that does not make sense.
      Surely the Government can give some examples. The information will come from the employers. Would the process apply to the second condition? Are the Government saying that they are not going to lay down any guidelines for the court to operate under? This is the point which my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Ted Fletcher) was trying to make. Who will decide what is
      "gravely injurious to the national economy"?
      Let us take the Ford strike as an example. It has been argued that the Ford strike has been responsible for a loss of investment in this country. Is that
      "gravely injurious to the national economy"?
      Would the Under-Secretary of State like to have a go at trying to define what is
      "gravely injurious to the national economy"?
      What about the airlines? Is an airline strike "gravely injurious"? Would a domestic airline strike not be "gravely
      724
      injurious" whereas a strike on an international airline would be? Would it be injurious because of prestige? We have heard of the implications of Concorde and Rolls-Royce. What is meant by
      "gravely injurious to the national economy"?
      What about the dustmen's strike? What about strike of sewerage workers? Would they be caught by the third condition, that of exposing
      "a substantial number of persons to serious risk of disease"?
      I am just a simple back bencher. I have no responsibility for any mistakes which the Labour Government may have made—and they made some. We have to be tolerant and broadminded about these things. But I argue that the present Government are in the process of making one of the greatest mistakes in political life. Many hon. Members opposite claim that trade unionists outside do not understand the provisions of the Bill. I do not blame them if that is so because I do not understand some of the provisions. But I am at least trying to get some information from the Government to help me understand Clause 124.
      So far, despite all the legal brilliance and knowledge of the Solicitor-General, I have not received any. I hope it is not too late, even at this hour, to get some information, with some examples, which we could use in convincing trade unionists that they have nothing to fear. That is the least the Government ought to be able to provide on this occasion.
      [Sir ROBERT GRANT-FERRIS in the Chair]
      11.30 p.m.
      Mr. Orme: I just want to underwrite what some of my hon. Friends have said about this Clause. The Solicitor-General did not answer the question: what will be the effect of imposing a cooling-off period? Will it result in the type of solution which he suggested? The only law with which to compare this is the United States law, the Taft-Hartley.
      We have disputed Donovan in the past, but in this case Donovan, after examining the United States situation, where they have written evidence and documents submitted, was unanimous in coming down against having in this country the Taft-Hartley type of development. The Solicitor-General quoted paragraph 421.

      725
      I would ask him to look at it again. He quoted:
      "In all but one of 24 cases in which injunctions were granted, a stand-still period was successfully imposed. In sixteen cases a settlement was reached during or shortly after the stand-still period, but in seven cases stoppages did take place or were resumed after it."
      The last sentence reads:
      "There has not been a single case in which a vote has gone in favour of acceptance of the employer's latest offer."
      An Hon. Member: He did not read that.
      Mr. Orme: He was extremely selective.
      The Solicitor-General: The latest offer ballot vote referred to in the last sentence is something which only takes place where a settlement has not taken place. In other words, in the 16 cases where there was a resumption of work the ballot might not arise. The last offer ballot is quite distinct from the balloting proposals which we propose in later Clauses in this Bill. It has nothing to do with our proposals. What the hon. Member has said does not invalidate the point that the cooling-off period is designed to bring about the deferment of a strike.
      Mr. Orme: When we had the Ministry of Labour, which acted in a really conciliatory manner, settlements could be reached without the threat or imposition of a cooling-off period. That is the point we are making. In British industrial relations it will not resolve anything.
      Paragraph 423 of the Donovan Report is very interesting. Incidentally, as I pointed out to the Solicitor-General, Mr. Andrew Shonfield did not dissent from this whole group of paragraphs. Paragraph 423 says:
      "The record under the Taft-Hartley Act in the United States has been worse than the record in our country."
      Worse than the record in our country.
      "We have been singularly free from strikes in recent years which would have come within the scope of a 'Taft-Hartley' kind of procedure."
      If we bring this rigidity into industrial relations and enforce a cooling-off period we shall find that the workers will just sit back and wait. The lesson from the United States is that very little happens
      726
      during the 90 days. Everyone waits for the end of the 90 days, and the employers and workers prepare for the stoppage.
      Mr. Tom King: How can the hon. Gentleman say that very little happens, when 16 disputes were settled?
      Mr. Orme: We are talking about conciliation, and my point is that a cooling-off period is not necessary for conciliation. In the motor car industry and the steel industry in the United States the 90 days comes to an end and there is a strike of indefinite length. If this happened in Britain, it would be injurious to the economy, the strike would be difficult to settle and industrial relations would be worsened. The British economy cannot withstand such a strike as the American economy can.
      I have gone through the small type of the other Clauses and there are many things as dangerous as this, but this is one of the showpieces. Despite the fig leaf used by the Solicitor-General in trying to explain the Bill, he has not come anywhere near convincing the Committee that such a form of statutory control is necessary. We and the T.U.C. do not need such a cooling-off period. The courts, the policing, the arrest of individuals—all these are alien to British industrial life, and we want no part of it.
      Mrs. Castle: The Solicitor-General has given us some astonishing explanations of the provisions of the Bill. I was never more taken aback than when he told us that Clause 124 and the proposal for a cooling-off period
      "finds its origin in the Andrew Shonfield memorandum in the Donovan Report."
      I had always thought it found its origin in "Fair Deal at Work", which was based on pre-Donovan evidence. The Solicitor-General has shown great ingenuity throughout our long debates in always getting Donovan out of the argument like a rabbit out of a hat. When Donovan rejects the proposition, with great resourcefulness he says that it has its roots in Shonfield.
      Since the Solicitor-General made this comment I have been glancing through my Shonfield, and I find that Andrew Shonfield did not suggest a cooling-off period. He was dealing, as Donovan was dealing, as "In Place of Strife" was

      727
      dealing, and as 1 thought the Government were dealing with a British situation and with the special characteristics of Britain's industrial relations problems. To that situation and those problems a cooling-off period on Taft-Hartley lines is an alien irrelevance. It sticks out like a sore thumb.
      The Solicitor-General has moved us during the past weeks with his definition of the poison at the heart of British industrial society, the poison of the unofficial strike. That has been his excuse for all the other restrictions in the Bill. Suddenly we are told "Can anybody deny that the British situation demands an American-type cooling-off period?"—and this in Britain where the industrial relations problems are entirely different.
      The problem in the United States mostly involves the long and protracted major official strike, whereas the Government say that our problem is the spasmodic, spontaneous, often short-lived unofficial strike.
      My hon. Friend for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) was right to say that this is one of the Government's gimmicks. There have, in fact, been two major gimmicks in the Government's policy for industrial relations with which they have regaled the British public for many years. One was to make all collective agreements legally enforceable, which was expected to cure everything. It took us a long time to point out the irrelevance and unworkability of that one. The second was the cooling-off period; and now the Government are stuck with it.
      I repeat that I do not underestimate the Government's resourcefulness in the matter of industrial relations. When they found that to make collective agreements legally enforceable on a voluntary basis would lead to none of them being legally enforceable, they moved on to more restrictive powers and, indeed, to a new power that was not outlined in "Fair Deal at Work"; namely, the imposition by Government initiative of procedure agreements. Therefore, we find in Clause 124 the ingredients for a far more dangerous proposition than many hon. Gentlemen have yet to realise.
      Clause 124 goes very much further than the simple formula of the Taft-Hartley Act, very much further than giving the President the right to find that
      728
      a dispute affecting an entire industry or substantial part thereof will imperil the national health or safety. We have the alarming situation that in the United States the procedure of the Taft-Hartley cooling-off period, despite the limited definition under which it is supposed to operate, has been invoked in situations that went far wider than the narrow terms of the law. Yet here in Clause 124 are much wider powers even than Taft-Hartley. We have the words that this procedure can be invoked where there is likely to be a situation
      "gravely injurious to the national economy",
      and with the national economy in the state in which it is increasingly becoming under this Government, I should have thought that opened the door very wide indeed.
      I have been waiting in confident anticipation throughout this debate for the hon. and learned Gentleman, finding his back slightly to the wall on this point, in face of the facts and having been bombarded from this side of the Committee, to trundle out "In Place of Strife". I did not wait in vain. The hon. and learned Gentleman, bless his dear heart, did not disappoint me. We have had all the old resources brought in, all the minutiae of the arguments about "In Place of Strife", and it is the biggest revelation of the Government's anxiety about their own measures that they have to go to such lengths to pretend that they are the same as mine.
      11.45 p.m.
      This evening we had even the remarkable spectacle of the Solicitor-General, introducing a major piece of legislation on which the Government have spent a great deal of thought and initiative, pleading with me to spell out the terms of an interim Bill which I never even introduced to Parliament. [Interruption.] Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen need not worry. I am delighted to deal with "In Place of Strife", because it is ludicrous to say that we ever produced any provision remotely like the cooling-off period formula in Clause 124. I am delighted to spend a few minutes examining the White Paper, because no document more clearly demonstrates the fundamental difference between the two sides of the Committee, even if we are in the middle of a family dispute.

      729
      We would have nothing to do with this tatty bit of Taft-Hartley hangover, second-hand and shop-soiled in the first place, and now presented to us by this Government in an even more ridiculous and more restrictive form. The reason why we would have nothing to do with it was that we were dealing in the White Paper with the characteristics of the British problems as we saw them. I thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman was dealing with them, too. A major characteristic is the short-lived and spontaneous strike.
      Of course, in the case of the major, official, constitutional dispute which may drag on for months without settlement, what is often needed is not a cooling-off period but a warming-up period in which the conciliation forces of the Government Department and the imaginativeness and efforts of both sides are brought in to resolve a dispute which may have been fermenting for a long time, where the parties have become entrenched, and where the situation will only be made worse if the dispute is put into cold storage for another 60 days. That is why we rejected the cooling-off period.
      If hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot see the difference between this proposal and a conciliation Clause designed to deal with a down-tools strike where there has been no attempt to use negotiation or conciliation machinery, it is because they have never grasped the deeply reactionary philosophy of their own Bill, and so they cannot understand the very different philosophy which has always dominated our approach, whatever disagreements there may have been on this proposal or that.
      Of course the White Paper was set in the framework of an entirely different philosophy—the belief that industrial relations are human relations, not legal relations, and that if one tried to put them in a legal straitjacket one would compress the healthy growth of those human relations which must solve their own problems and differences by the development of mutual understanding and compromise, however difficult.
      Mr. Eadie: Would not my right hon. Friend think it pertinent, since the Secretary of State has joined us, to mention that under the American system there are now 24,400 postal unions? How
      730
      would we negotiate with 24,400 postal unions in our present situation?
      Mrs. Castle: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for contributing a piece of information for the benefit of the Secretary of State. But there is another fundamental difference between our philosophy and that of hon. Gentlemen opposite. That is that we believe—this dominates and has always dominated our policy—that the prime responsibility for good industrial relations lies with management and that the more one deals with one's problems by putting a clamp on one of the parties, the unions, the more one puts a premium on bad management.
      One of the remarkable characteristics of the Bill and our debate on it is that it nowhere makes a centrepoint of responsibility for good industrial relations the manager, the man who is there and who is paid and trained to do the job of creating those good relations. But we have done it: we always did it. That is why we on this side have always refused to condemn all unofficial strikes—
      Sir John Rodgers rose—
      Mrs. Castle: No, I have not many minutes before the guillotine falls, and I want to tell hon. Gentlemen opposite what they do not want to know—what has always impregnated our philosophy. We have always refused to condemn all unofficial strikes. When this Government come along with a Bill with two major prongs—first, an elaborate legal framework for suppressing all unofficial strikes, and then, as though that was not enough, a great armoury of powers in Clause 124 for the cooling-off period about any type of official strike—we say to them, "What are you leaving in the way of responsibility upon management. —a cooling-off period to delay the necessity for management to retrieve the solution in a major strike, placing sanctions on unofficial strikes so that it can always be said that the troubles are due to the unions, that if only the unions can be contained the trouble will go away?"
      We say that British employers are not such saints that we can declare that they are never responsible. If we give these total powers of repression for which the Government are asking we are de facto saying that British management is never

      731
      responsible for bad industrial situations leading to the unofficial strike.
      That is why we refuse to tie the hands of the shop stewards in dealing with a shop floor situation, and that is why in "In Place of Strife" we examined the right hon. Gentleman's propositions in this Bill and rejected them one by one. We rejected in terms his central proposition that immunity from actions for inducement to commit a breach of contract of employment should be limited to registered trade unions.
      One of our main reasons was that to put unofficial strike leaders at risk would mean that they could be penalised even if the strike was justified through bad management. We rejected the suggestion that the Government or some independent agency should take from employers the responsibility for negotiating good procedure agreements by imposing them by law. We rejected the idea that unions should be de-registered if they did not discipline their members who took unofficial action. All these things are in the right hon. Gentleman's Bill and they were all rejected by us because our approach is very different.
      We stressed time and again that we should do nothing by legislation to impede a voluntary reform of procedures by taking the employers' responsibility from them. Time and again in this Bill hon. Gentlemen opposite have taken from management its responsibility to negotiate, consult, persuade, to win over and, therefore, to help voluntary reform. We agree that where a strike, official or unofficial, takes place after the exhaustion of agreed procedures, it would be intolerable to interfere with the strike since employees may have no other way of remedying a legitimate grievance.
      What hon. Gentlemen opposite will not realise and face, because they do not want to, is that the whole of our proposition is based on that difference of approach, the difference of belief as to where the major responsibility lies, the belief that by spreading legal restrictions of this far-reaching kind what is being done is relieving management of its job. We have also said that the Government should be prepared to take responsibility for their actions and to answer directly in the House of Commons and not to
      732
      hide, as this Government have hidden, behind the procedures of a Clause.
      When we acted as a Government we dared to answer to Parliament. We say that total discretion means total answerability. The discretion in this Clause is divided between the Secretary of State on the one hand and the courts of law on the other. This division enables the Government to get away from their answerability, and this is the purpose of this division of responsibility. The Government are abusing the pretence of legal sanctions—
      It being Twelve o'clock, The Chairman proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 43 (Business Committee) and the Orders [25th and 27th January], to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
      The Committee divided: Ayes 299, Noes 250.

      Division No. 198]

      AYES

      [8.22 p.m

      Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

      Cordle, John

      Gray, Hamish

      Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

      Corfield, F. V.

      Green, Alan

      Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

      Cormack, Patrick

      Grieve, Percy

      Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

      Costain, A. P.

      Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

      Astor, John

      Critchley, Julian

      Grylls, Michael

      Atkins, Humphrey

      Crouch, David

      Gummer, Selwyn

      Awdry, Daniel

      Crowder, F. P.

      Gurden, Harold

      Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

      Curran, Charles

      Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

      Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Hall, John (Wycombe)

      Balniel, Lord

      Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Botsford, Brian

      Dean, Paul

      Hannam, John (Exeter)

      Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

      Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

      Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

      Bell, Ronald

      Digby, Simon Wingfield

      Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

      Dixon, Piers

      Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

      Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

      Dodds-Parker, Douglas

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Benyon, W.

      Drayson, G. B.

      Hastings, Stephen

      Berry, Hn. Anthony

      du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Havers, Michael

      Biffen, John

      Dykes, Hugh

      Hawkins, Paul

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Eden, Sir John

      Hay, John

      Blaker, Peter

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

      Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

      Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Boscawen, R. T.

      Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

      Heseltine, Michael

      Bossom, Sir Clive

      Emery, Peter

      Hicks, Robert

      Bowden, Andrew

      Eyre, Reginald

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

      Farr, John

      Hiley, Joseph

      Braine, Bernard

      Fell, Anthony

      Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

      Bray, Ronald

      Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

      Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

      BrewiS, John

      Fidler, Michael

      Holland, Philip

      Brinton, Sir Tatten

      Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

      Holt, Miss Mary

      Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

      Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Hornby, Richard

      Bruce-Gardyne, J.

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&M)

      Fortescue, Tim

      Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

      Buck, Antony

      Fowler, Norman

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Bullus, Sir Eric

      Fox, Marcus

      Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

      Burden, F. A.

      Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Fry, Peter

      Iremonger, T. L.

      Carlisle, Mark

      Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

      James, David

      Channon, Paul

      Gardner, Edward

      Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

      Chapman, Sydney

      Gibson-Watt, David

      Jessel, Toby

      Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

      Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

      Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

      Chichester-Clark, R.

      Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

      Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

      Churchill, W. S.

      Glyn, Dr. Alan

      Jopling, Michael.

      Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

      Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

      Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Goodhart, Philip

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Clegg, Walter

      Goodhew, Victor

      Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

      Cockeram, Eric

      Gorst, John

      Kilfedder, James

      Cooke, Robert

      Gower, Raymond

      King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

      Coombs, Derek

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Cooper, A. E.

      Kinsey, J. R.

      Onslow, Cranley

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Kirk, Peter

      Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

      Steel, David

      Kitson, Timothy

      Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

      Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

      Knight, Mrs. Jill

      Osborn, John

      Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

      Knox, David

      Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

      Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

      Lambton, Antony

      Page, Graham (Crosby)

      Stokes, John

      Lane, David

      Page, John (Harrow, W.)

      Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Paisley, Mr. Ian

      Sutcliffe, John

      Le Merchant, Spencer

      Pardoe, John

      Tapsell, Peter

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

      Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

      Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

      Percival, Ian

      Taytor,Edward Mr.(G'gow,Cathcart)

      Longden, Gilbert

      Pike, Miss Mervyn

      Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

      MacArthur, Ian

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

      McCrindle, R. A.

      Pounder, Rafton

      Tebbit, Norman

      McLaren, Martin

      Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

      Temple, John M.

      Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

      McMaster, Stanley

      Proudfoot, Wilfred

      Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

      Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

      Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

      McNair-Wilson, Michael

      Quennell, Miss J. M.

      Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

      McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

      Raison, Timothy

      Tilney, John

      Madden, Martin

      Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

      Trafford, Dr. Anthony

      Madel, David

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

      Trew, Peter

      Maginnis, John E.

      Redmond, Robert

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

      Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

      van Straubenzee, W. R.

      Marten, Neil

      Rees, Hn. Peter (Dover)

      Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

      Mather, Carol

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Vickers, Dame Joan

      Maude, Angus

      Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

      Waddington, David

      Mawby, Ray

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Welder, David (Clitheroe)

      Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

      Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

      Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Wall, Patrick

      Mills, Peter (Torrington)

      Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

      Walters, Dennis

      Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

      Ward, Dame Irene

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Warren, Kenneth

      Mitchell,Lt.-Col.(Aberdeenshire, W.)

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Rost, Peter

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Moate, Roger

      Russell, Sir Ronald

      White, Roger (Gravesend)

      Molyneaux, James

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

      Money, Ernie

      Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Monks, Mrs. Connie

      Scott, Nicholas

      Wilkinson, John

      Monro, Hector

      Scott-Hopkins, James

      Wolrige-Gorden, Patrick

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Sharples, Richard

      Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

      More, Jasper

      Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

      Woodnutt, Mark

      Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

      Shelton, William (Clapham)

      Worsley, Marcus

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

      Simeons, Charles

      Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Younger, Hn. George

      Mudd, David

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Murton, Oscar

      Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Nabarro, Sir Gerald

      Soref, Harold

      Mr. Keith Speed and

      Neave, Airey

      Spence, John

      Mr. Hugh Rossi.

      Normanton, Tom

      Stainton, Keith

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

      Eadie, Alex

      Albu, Austen

      Cohen, Stanley

      Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

      Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

      Coleman, Donald

      Edwards, William (Merioneth)

      Allen, Scholefield

      Concannon, J. D.

      Ellis, Tom

      Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

      Conlan, Bernard

      English, Michael

      Ashley, Jack

      Corbet, Mrs. Freda

      Evans, Fred

      Ashton, Joe

      Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

      Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham,Ladywood)

      Barnes, Michael

      Cronin, John

      Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

      Barnett, Joel

      Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      Beaney, Alan

      Grossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

      Cunningham, C. (Islington, S.W.)

      Foley, Maurice

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Dalyell, Tam

      Foot, Michael

      Bishop, E. S.

      Davidson, Arthur

      Ford, Ben

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

      Forrester, John

      Boardman, H. (Leigh)

      Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

      Fraser, John (Norwood)

      Booth, Albert

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Freeson, Reginald

      Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

      Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Galpern, Sir Myer

      Bradley, Tom

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

      Garrett, W. E.

      Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

      Deakins, Eric

      Gilbert, Dr. John

      Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Proven)

      Delargy, H. J.

      Ginsburg, David

      Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch&F'bury)

      Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

      Golding, John

      Buchan, Norman

      Dempsey, James

      Gourlay, Harry

      Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

      Doig, Peter

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

      Dormand, J. D.

      Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

      Cant, R. B.

      Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

      Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

      Carmichael, Neil

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

      Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

      Driberg, Tom

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

      Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

      Dunn, James A.

      Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

      Clark, David (Colne Valley)

      Dunnett, Jack

      664

      665

      Hardy, Peter

      McGuire, Michael

      Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

      Harper, Joseph

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Mackie, John

      Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

      Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Hattersley, Roy

      Maclennan, Robert

      Roper, John

      Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

      Rose, Paul B.

      Heffer, Eric S.

      McNamara, J. Kevin

      Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

      Hilton, W. S.

      MacPherson, Malcolm

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

      Horam, John

      Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

      Short, Mrs.Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

      Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

      Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

      Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

      Marks, Kenneth

      Sillars, James

      Huckfield, Leslie

      Marquand, David

      Silverman, Julius

      Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

      Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

      Small, William

      Hughes, Dr. Mark (Durham)

      Mayhew, Christopher

      Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Meacher, Michael

      Spearing, Nigel

      Hunter, Adam

      Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

      Mendelson, John

      Stallard, A. W.

      Janner, Greville

      Mikardo, Ian

      Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

      Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Millan, Bruce

      Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

      Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

      Miller, Dr. M. S.

      Stoddart, David (Swindon)

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Milne, Edward (Blyth)

      Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

      Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

      Molloy, William

      Strang, Gavin

      John, Brynmor

      Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

      Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

      Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

      Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Swain, Thomas

      Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

      Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

      Taverne, Dick

      Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

      Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Murray, Ronald King

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

      Ogden, Eric

      Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

      Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Tinn, James

      Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

      O'Malley, Brian

      Tomney, Frank

      Judd, Frank

      Oram, Bert

      Torney, Tom

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Orme, Stanley

      Tuck, Raphael

      Kelley, Richard

      Oswald, Thomas

      Urwin, T. W.

      Kerr, Russell

      Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Varley, Eric G.

      Kinnoch, Neil

      Paget, R. T.

      Wainwright, Edwin

      Lambie, David

      Parker, John (Dagenham)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Latham, Arthur

      Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Wallace, George

      Lawson, George

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Watkins, David

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

      Weitzman, David

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Pendry, Tom

      Wellbeloved, James

      Leonard, Dick

      Pentland, Norman

      Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Perry, Ernest G.

      White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

      Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

      Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

      Whitlock, William

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Prescott, John

      Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Lomas, Kenneth

      Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

      Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

      Loughlin, Charles

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

      Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

      Probert, Arthur

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

      Rankin, John

      Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

      Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

      Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

      Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

      McBride, Neil

      Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Rhodes, Geoffrey

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      McElhone, Frank

      Richard, Ivor

      Mr. Ernest Armstrong and

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Mr. William Hamling.

      [For Division List 199 see col. 747]
      Clause 124 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
      The Chairman then proceeded to put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at Twelve o'clock, including the Questions on an Amendment and on a Motion for a new Clause moved by a Member of the Government.

    Clause 125

      ORDER OF INDUSTRIAL COURT ON APPLICATION UNDER S. 124
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 294, Noes 248.
      [For Division List 200 see col. 751]
      Clause 125 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 126

      SUPPLEMENTARY PROVISIONS WHERE ORDER MADE UNDER S. 125
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 289, Noes 246.
      [For Division List 201 see col. 755]
      Clause 126 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 127

      APPLICATION TO INDUSTRIAL COURT FOR ORDER FOR BALLOT RELATING TO INDUSTRIAL ACTION
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 286, Noes 245.
      [For Division List 202 see col. 761]
      Clause 127 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 128

      ORDER OF INDUSTRIAL COURT ON APPLICATION UNDER S. 127
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 284, Noes 242.
      [For Division List 203 see col. 765]
      Clause 128 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 129

      PROVISIONS PENDING RESULT OF BALLOT ORDERED UNDER S. 128
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 283, Noes 241.
      [For Division List 204 see col. 769]
      Clause 129 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
      Clauses 130 to 136 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 137

      CLAIMS UNDER TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT ACT 1959, S. 8
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 282, Noes 242.
      [For Division List 205 see col. 773]
      Clause 137 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 138

      RECOVERY OF SUMS AWARDED IN PRO CEEDINGS INVOLVING TRADE UNION OR EMPLOYERS' ASSOCIATION.
      Amendment made: No. 853, in page 95, line 15, at end insert:
      734
      (3) Except as provided by subsection (1) of this section, any judgment, order or award which is made against a trade union or an employers' association in any proceedings (whether brought by virtue of this Act or otherwise) shall be enforceable against any property belonging to, or held in trust for, the trade union or employers' association.—[Mr. Dudley Smith.]
      Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 139

      PROCEEDINGS AGAINST UNREGISTERED ORGANISATIONS
      Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 280, Noes 236.
      [For Division List 206 see col. 779]
      Clause 139 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
      Clauses 140 to 142 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 143

      RESTRICTIONS ON CONTRACTING OUT
      Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 279, Noes 235.
      [For Division List 207 see col. 783]
      Clause 143 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
      Clauses 144 to 147 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 148

      INTERPRETATION
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee proceeded to a Division:—
      The Chairman (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Order. It has been represented to me that there has been a fault in the timing in the Division. I propose to call the Division again.
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 280, Noes 233.
      [For Division List 208 see col. 787]
      Clause 148 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 149

      AMENDMENTS AND REPEALS
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 280, Noes 235.
      [For Division List 209 see col. 791]
      Clause 149 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 150

      SHORT TITLE, COMMENCEMENT AND EXTENT
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 277, Noes 233.
      [For Division List 210 see col. 796]
      Clause 150 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    New Clause No. 18

      COMPLAINT OF BREACH OF DUTY UNDER S. 53
      (1) Any person employed in an undertaking may present to an industrial tribunal a complaint against the employer who is the owner of the undertaking that—

      (a) under section 53 of this Act it was the duty of the employer to issue to him a statement relating to a period specified in the complaint and containing the information required in acordance with regulations made under that section, and

      (b) the employer has not fulfilled that duty as required by that section.

      (2) If, on such a complaint, the industrial tribunal finds that the grounds of the complaint are well-founded, the tribunal may, if it considers that it would be just and equitable to do so, make an order determining the rights of the person who presented the complaint and of the employer in relation to the matters to which the complaint relates.
      (3) Where an industrial tribunal makes an order under this section, the tribunal may direct that, in relation to the period specified in the complaint, the time limited by section 53(2) of this Act shall be extended for such further period as may be specified in the order; and in the next following subsection 'the time allowed by the tribunal' means the time so limited together with any further period specified in the order.
      (4) If a person whose rights have been determined by an order made by an industrial tribunal under this section claims that, notwithstanding, the order, the employer has not, within the time allowed by the tribunal, issued
      736
      to him a statement in accordance with his rights as so authorised, he may present a complaint to that effect to the Industrial Court.
      (5) On a complaint presented under subsection (4) of this section the Industrial Court may, if it finds that the grounds of the complaint are well-founded and considers that it would be just and equitable to do so, make an order directing the employer, before the end of such period as may be specified in the order of the Court, to issue to the complainant a statement containing such information as the Court considers appropriate, having regard to the rights determined by the order of the industrial tribunal.—[Mr. R. Carr.]
      Brought up, read the First and Second time and added to the Bill.
      Schedule I agreed to.

    Schedule 2

      CHIEF REGISTRAR AND ASSISTANT REGIS TRARS, NATIONAL INDUSTRIAL RELA TIONS COURT AND COMMISSION ON INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS.
      Question put, That this Schedule be the Second Schedule to the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 276, Noes 234.
      [For Division List 211 see col. 802]
      Schedule 2 agreed to.

    Schedule 3

      REQUIREMENTS AS TO RULES OF TRADE UNIONS AND EMPLOYERS' ASSOCIA TIONS.
      Question proposed, That this be the Third Schedule to the Bill.
      The Committee divided: Ayes 279, Noes 233.
      [For Division List 212 see col. 806]
      Schedule 3 agreed to.
      Schedules 4 and 5 agreed to.

    Schedule 6

      TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT ACT, 1959
      Question put, That this be the Sixth Schedule to the Bill:—
      The Committee Divided: Ayes 279, Noes 231.
      [For Division List 213 see col. 810]
      Schedule 6 agreed to.
      Schedule 7 agreed to.

    Schedule 8

      ENACTMENTS REPEALED
      Question put, That this Schedule be the Eighth Schedule to the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 278, Noes 232.
      [For Division List 214 see col. 814]
      Schedule 8 agreed to.
      Then The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report the Bill, as amended, to the House, pursuant to Order [25th January].
      Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, to be considered this day, and to be printed. [Bill 116.]

  YORKSHIRE COALFIELD AREA (UNEMPLOYMENT)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Humphrey Atkins.]
  3.10 a.m.
  Mr. Roy Mason: We are now in the eighteenth hour of my working day. This is my third shift, after having started out at 9 o'clock yesterday morning. We are on no overtime pay and if any body of workers ought to be recognised in industrial relations it is Members of Parliament. We need our own trade union.
  Nationally we have now reached the frightening, and to many people soul-destroying, unemployment figure of 721,000. Worse still, it is a trend that is moving upwards and shows no sign of levelling out. If there is no distinct change in Government policy we might have 1 million unemployed by the end of the year. Because the increase in nemployment is outstripping the Government's efforts to curb inflation, we must all recognise that unemployment is now becoming an urgent economic and social problem. Only specific measures by the Government can stop this trend escalating to a pitch that will bring back the grim memories of the 1930s.
  The nation is stagnant; growth is not forthcoming; investment is down and manpower is being wasted. What is more, misery among families is on the increase. For all this to change, there will have to be an alteration in this deliberate policy which is encouraging a spiral of price increases and which is sparking off high wage demands. Understandably, the unions want a safeguard against the rate of inflation, and consequently are requesting a built-in buffer against a quick wage erosion.
  If there is one factor that is the cause of the present inflation more than any other, it is runaway prices—and not until this is curbed shall we get a slow down in the unemployment figures. That is where the Government will have to begin before unions will co-operate in a sensible anti-inflation policy wherein growth can be planned and industry can have faith to invest, and then employment will pick up.
  This morning I am particularly concerned with the serious levels of unemployment in Barnsley and the coal zone of Yorkshire. Last month we had 5·3 per cent. unemployment in the Barnsley area, and the figures for February show a rise to 5·6 per cent.—an increase of 300 people out of work, bringing the total up to 3,929.
  In the Yorkshire and Humberside region there was also an increase in the last month and there are now 69,635 unemployed there. The Barnsley percentage is well over the national average: 5·6 per cent. against a national average of 3·1 per cent. There is a need for some fresh and urgent initiative by the Government to encourage present employers to expand and new employers and industries to come into the district.
  Four problems which cause me concern. First, the industrial development certificate policy is not working, in spite of the fact that we now have intermediate area status with extra incentives for industrialists to come to our town. On 1st February the Under-Secretary to the Department of Trade and Industry revealed to me that 22 I.D.Cs. were granted in 1969, but the number dropped to 18 in 1970. The estimated additional employment for males in 1969 from 22 I.D.Cs. was 370, and from the 18 I.D.Cs. granted in 1970 it was 130. That meant some 40 I.D.Cs. were employing only 500 men—approximately 12 men each. There is not much hope in this development. On this basis I.D.C. policy is too slow in operation and is not even scratching the surface of the problem.
  Secondly, every pit has now closed in the Barnsley borough. Nearly 1,000 ex-miners are unemployed, and even though the Labour Government alleviated the hardship of miners over 55 years of age with a special financial benefit which gave them up to 90 per cent. of their previous take-home pay for three years, this scheme is coming to an end for many of the men. Hence, there is a new problem involving hundreds of ex-miners between 58 and 65 having to resign themselves to dole queues for the rest of their lives, existing on social security benefits, with no hope, no work. They are experienced, versatile. reliable men, and they are
  740
  doomed to the labour scrap heap. In the coal zone of Yorkshire, already 1,400 are affected in this way, and there are 3,729 miners of all age groups who are unemployed in the coal zone of the county as well.
  Thirdly, in a survey of the future of the Yorkshire coalfield, the National Coal Board has revealed that, because of the exhaustion of reserves alone—by which is meant completely worked out seams; it has nothing to do with pits which may close because they are uneconomic or because of geological difficulties—29 pits will close in the next 10 years, affecting at least another 17,000 men.
  The Yorkshire coalfield is necessary. Of that, there is no doubt. It has a future beyond the year 2000, especially feeding the big coal-fired power stations in and around the county area. But the problem of closures through exhaustion and its additional appalling effects upon employment having been seen, planning for alternative industrial employment should now begin.
  The fourth problem is the working of the new Industrial Training Scheme, which was specially designed to train unemployed workers over 45 years of age. So far, it has proved useless. Within the climate of inflation, employers fear high wages. Therefore, they are finding means of shedding labour rather than setting men on. In my area, not one firm so far has taken in one man under the scheme, in spite of the incentive of £10 per man per week while he is being trained.
  To sum up, the problems are escalating unemployment, the fact that the I.D.C. policy is virtually useless in overcoming it, the special problem of older unemployed mineworkers and the fact that the Industrial Training Act is just not working, and the looming spectre of 29 pit closures by 1980. In view of all this, I propose that the Government should treat the present and future threat of increased unemployment in Barnsley and the coal zone of Yorkshire as a matter requiring urgent attention.
  First, they should declare the whole zone as one of development status. The Minister must realise that, having granted special development area status to parts of the North-East, Yorkshire is likely to be by-passed because of these additional

  741
  incentives. Indeed, it is likely to kill or at least neutralise the intermediate status that we acquired last year.
  Secondly, we should consider new capital projects in the coal mining industry of Yorkshire. Kellingley colliery is an example. We need a large mine to produce between 1½ and 2 million tons per year with high productivity and relatively cheap power station coal. What about a new super-mine to tap the 7 ft. thick coal seam that runs from Kellingley through to the coastline: a new investment in coal, a new investment in the county. and 1,000 men's jobs?
  Thirdly, the Government and the Coal Board might consider the reopening of Thorne colliery. There, £3 million of investment would be required for new winding gear and an underground transport system. This, too, would result in another 750 to 1,000 jobs. Alternatively, because both cannot be done, especially because Thorne colliery reserves are under it, the Government might consider Thorne waste as a site for a new major airport to serve the county and relieve pressure on others in the North of England. Certainly this would boost employment and revitalise the region.
  Fourthly, the Government should consider encouraging a new growth labour-intensive industry to come to the coal zone of Yorkshire. A car manufacturing plant or a bus assembly plant, even the projected Ford engine factory, would be welcome in the Yorkshire county.
  What about a new power station to follow Drax 2? We have the water, the fuel and the manpower. There would be 2,500 jobs during construction and 750 thereafter. If necessary, a new power station could be tied to the new super-mine and if there were a deliberate investment decision by the Government, the National Coal Board and the C.E.G.B. to do this, it could rejuvenate the coal zone and quickly make an impact on the serious level of unemployment.
  In the Yorkshire and Humberside Regional Strategy Report, prepared by the Yorkshire and Humberside Economic Planning Council, reference is made to the serious situation in the coalfield—Doncaster, Hemsworth, South Kirby, Dearne Valley and the Five Towns. My hon. Friends the Members for Dearne Valley (Mr. Edwin Wainwright) and Pon-
  742
  tefract (Mr. Harper) are present tonight because of the serious question of unemployment in their areas.
  There is a special reference to Barnsley in paragraph 135:
  "A reduction in labour demand is expected as a result of a continuing decline of employment in coalmining and a substantial shortage of male jobs is likely. In our report 'Employment Prospects in the Yorkshire Coalmining Areas', we recognised that the situation in Barnsley was particularly urgent."
  It is still urgent and it is getting worse.
  There is too much migration of young adults, professional workers and non-manual workers. Prospects for school-leavers are depressing. The elderly unemployed coal miner is destined to tread the streets hopelessly searching for work until ultimately he loses his pride and his soul. The after-effects of being dependent on a mono-economy in the area for so long are now hurting. New industries are badly needed and only by Government decree are these awful trends to be arrested.
  Giving us full development status would help, and the extra financial incentives might start an inflow of industry. We have the sites and the manpower. Now it has become so desperate that we do not want just sympathy and hope from the Minister tonight—we want direct action.
  3.22 a.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Anthony Grant)The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Anthony Grant): I am glad to have the opportunity, even at this late hour, to discuss the problems of employment in Barnsley and the Yorkshire coalfield. I agree with the right hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) that the unemployment there is far too high. I hope that he will accept that I and my colleagues view this with very great concern, but in part what he said was a damning indictment of the economic policies of the previous Government for the last three years, and in part a recognition of the inevitable changes and restructuring of traditional industries.
  I do not accept that the I.D.C. policy is not working. I regard this as an essential weapon of regional policy and I will administer it in that way. But one must recognise that, if there is a shortage of mobile industry, as there is at the moment, I.D.C.s will simply not

  743
  be applied for. However, I would emphasise to the Yorkshire intermediate area that I.D.C.s will be made freely available if industry is found to go there.
  Also, I do not entirely accept what the right hon. Gentleman said about training. This is a major problem, which the Government view with concern. The plight of the elderly miner who is redundant is one which I consider with great anxiety, but the right hon. Gentleman will recall that, on 4th November, 1970—I refer him to column 383 of HANSARD—the Secretary of State for Employment announced in answer to a Question that the Government intended to give a new emphasis to training to help the unemployed, and he set out four important developments, starting from 1st January, 1971. I will not read them out now, but they indicate a determination on the part of the Government to tackle this seriously. I very much hope that this will have the necessary effect of speeding up this important and difficult retraining work.
  Dealing with Thorne airport, it is a matter primarily for local interests to decide in the first instance whether detailed studies into the feasibility of developing a major airport at Thorne-Goole are required. The Yorkshire and Humberside Economic Planning Council, which considered this question in the light of the refusal of planning permission for the extension of Leeds-Bradford Airport, concluded that, since there was no evidence that Manchester Airport would reach saturation before the 1980s, there was no urgent need to study alternative sites for airports east of the Pennines. It also considered that detailed studies, which would be required before the heavy capital expenditure involved in constructing a major airport could be incurred, would be essentially a matter in the first instance for the local planning authorities concerned.
  I emphasise that the viability of a new major airport on the Thorne-Goole site would depend on there being an adequate demand for air services. This is absolutely essential. It is only right that I should give the House the Government's view in this respect. which is that, while
  744
  there is no reason why local interests should not pursue this matter as they think fit, we largely take the view of the Yorkshire and Humberside Economic Planning Council that the scheme is essentially a long-term one.
  As to the possibility of it being developed into an intercontinental airport of some sort as an alternative to London, this is a matter upon which I should prefer not to pass judgment since we will be debating the Roskill Commission's Report next week.
  I turn now to the coal industry, the restructuring of which is one of the major reasons for the difficulties cited by the right hon. Gentleman. Coal has a vital part to play in meeting the energy requirements of Great Britain. In common with other coal producing areas the Yorkshire coalfield has had to face major problems in the restructuring of this industry and the manpower consequences of modernisation and re-equipment. Nevertheless, the Yorkshire coalfield, providing that it is efficient and competitive, has a good future before it. The National Coal Board has, no doubt, been considering the points which the right hon. Gentleman has raised about the development of coal in the region. This is a part of Britain in which coal has a future, provided it is efficiently and economically produced.
  I was interested to observe that the Board was engaging in recruiting campaigns, which is an encouraging sign. However there is a need for new industry. Industry is needed which can utilise the innate adaptability and capacity for hard work which has always been characteristic of this area. There are no quick solutions. It would be wrong to say that the solution could be found overnight. Before new industry can begin to flow in on any scale we must strengthen the weakness in the economy which was our legacy from the previous Administration. We must do this so that industry can make confident plans for the future.
  The right hon. Gentleman suggested that the present intermediate area should be designated a development area. I remind him that it is less than a year—it was on 5th March, 1970—that she area

  745
  was designated an intermediate area. It is, therefore, early days to judge how it is working out in its present status.
  The recent announcement of increased assistance to certain areas of the country which was made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer stems from a detailed examination of the situations and prospects of all areas. The unavoidable conclusion to be drawn from this review was that the policies adopted in recent years has failed to measure up to the worsening problems of some of the older industrial conurbations in the development areas.
  Exhibiting over the past two or three years disturbingly high and persistent levels of unemployment, their needs are such that they must be given first priority for the limited supply of mobile industry. For this reason we came to the conclusion that, having been granted intermediate status only a year ago, the right hon. Gentleman's area could not be upgraded. Clearly, the future pattern of assisted areas must reflect changes in the situation in particular areas. However, it is not our intention to make frequent changes, since industry must be given a stable framework on which to base its decisions.
  Advance factories have been authorised for Barnsley, Doncaster, Hemsworth and Mexborough at a cost of about £500,000. Sites have been chosen, construction is expected to begin in March and the factories should be ready by about the end of the year. About 300 jobs are expected to be provided intitially in total, but each factory will be capable of expansion to two or three times its original size. It would not be sensible to authorise the construction of further advance factories until it is seen whether the first batch attracts occupiers. However, this may encourage private developers to acquire sites.
  I beg hon. Gentleman opposite not to paint a picture of an area in decline and despair. This is an area of great
  746
  potential and one which has very much to offer to incoming industrialists. The benefits of being an intermediate area have been clearly set out and the right hon. Gentleman has done something to advertise them. I will be doing everything I possibly can to encourage industry to go to the assisted areas, which of course include this area, and my Department will draw the advantages, which are considerable, of Barnsley and Yorkshire to the attention of industrialists. I repeat that no service is done to the people who live in this area to paint a black and miserable picture.
  I hope, too, that firms which are already in the area will take into account the substantial Government assistance which can support their expansion plans. This area has good access to other important centres of industry and lies along major rail and motorway routes, being convenient for the Ml and M62. My Department will continue to draw the resources of the area to the attention of appropriate firms on every possible occasion.
  Throughout the intermediate areas, industrial development certificates are, in general, freely available for new factory building and extensions. I hope that, against this background, all who have the welfare of the area at heart—and I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I and my colleagues certainly have—will continue their efforts to ensure that its very real advantages are given the publicity they deserve.
  I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising this problem affecting his constituency and I ask all concerned not to be downhearted but to have confidence in the future and to do everything possible, as I shall, to let the industrial world and potential developers know the great advantages of going to Barnsley and Yorkshire.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes to Four o'clock a.m.

  INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS BILL
  Division No. 199.]

  AYES

  [12 m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Emery, Peter

  Lane, David

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Eyre, Reginald

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Farr, John

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Fell, Anthony

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Astor, John

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Fidler, Michael

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Awdry, Daniel

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Loveridge, John

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  MacArthur, Ian

  Balniel, Lord

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Batsford, Brian

  Fowler, Norman

  McLaren, Martin

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Fox, Marcus

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Bell, Ronald

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford&Stone)

  McMaster, Stanley

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Gardner, Edward

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Benyon, W.

  Gibson-Watt, David

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Maddan, Martin

  Biffen, John

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Madel, David

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Maginnis, John E.

  Blaker, Peter

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Goodhart, Philip

  Marten, Neil

  Body, Richard

  Goodhew, Victor

  Mather, Carol

  Boscawen, Robert

  Gorst, John

  Maude, Angus

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Gower, Raymond

  Mawby, Ray

  Bowden, Andrew

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Gray, Hamish

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Braine, Bernard

  Green, Alan

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Bray, Ronald

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Brewis, John

  Grylls, Michael

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

  Brocktebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Gurden, Harold

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Moate, Roger

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Malyneaux, James

  Bryan, Paul

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Money, Ernie

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Monks, Mrs. Connie

  Buck, Antony

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Burden, F. A.

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Mudd, David

  Carlisle, Mark

  Hastings, Stephen

  Murton, Oscar

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Havers, Michael

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Channon, Paul

  Hawkins, Paul

  Neave, Airey

  Chapman, Sydney

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Heseltine, Michael

  Normanton, Tom

  Chichester-Clarke, R.

  Hicks, Robert

  Nott, John

  Churchill, W. S.

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Onslow, Cranley

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Hiley, Joseph

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Osborn, John

  Clegg, Walter

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Cockeram, Eric

  Holland, Philip

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Cooke, Robert

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Coombs, Derek

  Hooson, Emlyn

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hornby, Richard

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Cordle, John

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Percival, Ian

  Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Cormack, Patrick

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Pink, R. Bonner

  costain, A. P.

  Howell, Raph (Norfolk, N.)

  Pounder, Rafton

  Critchley, Julian

  Hunt, John

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Crouch, David

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Crowder, F. P.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

  Curran, Charles

  James, David

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

  Jessel, Toby

  Raison, Timothy

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

  Jopling, Michael

  Redmond, Robert

  Dean, Paul

  Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Dixon, Piers

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Kilfedder, James

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Drayson, G. B.

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  du cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Dykes, Hugh

  kinsey, J. R

  Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffney

  Eden, Sir John

  Kirk, Peter

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Kinght, Mrs. Jill

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Elliott, R. D. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Knox, David

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Lambton, Antony

  748

  749

  Rost, Peter

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Walker, David (Clitheroe)

  Royle, Anthony

  Sutcliffe, John

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Tapsell, Peter

  Wall, Patrick

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Walters, Dennis

  Scott, Nicholas

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Sharples, Richard

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Tebbit, Norman

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Temple, John M.

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Simeons, Charles

  Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Wilkinson, John

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon,S.)

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Soref, Harold

  Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Speed, Keith

  Tilney, John

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Spence, John

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Worsley, Marcus

  Stainton, Keith

  Trew, Peter

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Younger, Hn. George

  Steel, David

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Mr. Jasper More and

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Mr. Tim Fortescue.

  Stokes, John

  Waddington, David

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  John, Brynmor

  Albu, Austen

  Driberg, Tom

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Allen, Scholefield

  Dunn, James A.

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Ashton, Joe

  Eadie, Alex

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Edelman, Maurice

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham,S.)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Barnes, Michael

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Barnett, Joel

  Ellis, Tom

  Judd, Frank

  Beaney, Alan

  English, Michael

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Evans, Fred

  Kelley, Richard

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Kerr, Russell

  Bishop, E. S.

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Lambie, David

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Lamond, James

  Booth, Albert

  Foley, Maurice

  Latham, Arthur

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Foot, Michael

  Lawson, George

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

  Ford, Ben

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Forrester, John

  Leonard, Dick

  Brown,Ronald(Shoreditch&Finsbury)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

  Buchan, Norman

  Freeson, Reginald

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Lipton, Marcus

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Garratt, W. E.

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartortshire, W.)

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Loughlin, Charles

  Cant, R. B.

  Ginsburg, David

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Golding, John

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  McBride, Neil

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  McElhone, Frank

  Cocks, Michael(Bristol, S.)

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  McGuire, Michael

  Cohen, Stanley

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Coleman, Donald

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Mackie, John

  Concannon, J. D.

  Hamling, William

  Mackintosh, John p.

  Conlan, Bernard

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Maclennan, Robert

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Hardy, Peter

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Cronin, John

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Hattersley, Roy

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Grossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Marks, Kenneth

  Dalyell, Tam

  Hilton, W. S.

  Marquand, David

  Darling, Re. Hn. George

  Horam, John

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Davidson, Arthur

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Meacher, Michael

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Mendelson, John

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Millan, Bruce

  Deakins, Eric

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Hunter, Adam

  Molloy, William

  Dell, Rt Hn. Edmund

  Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArihur(Edge Hill)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Dempsey, James

  Janner, Greville

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Doig, Peter

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Dormand, J. D.

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Moyle, Roland

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  750

  751

  Murray, Ronald King

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Ogden, Eric

  Roderick,Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Tinn, James

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Tomney, Frank

  O'Malley, Brian

  Roper, John

  Torney, Tom

  Oram, Bert

  Rose, Paul

  Tuck, Raphael

  Orme, Stanley

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Urwin, T. W.

  Oswald, Thomas

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Paget, R. T.

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Wallace, George

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Sillars, James

  Watkins, David

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Silverman, Julius

  Weitzman, David

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Skinner, Dennis

  Wellbeloved, James

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Small, William

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Pendry, Tom

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Pentland, Norman

  Spearing, Nigel

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Stallard, A. W.

  Whitlock, William

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Wiley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Prescott, John

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Strang, Gavin

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Probert, Arthur

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Swain, Thomas

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Taverne, Dick

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Richard, Ivor

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)

  Mr.Joseph Harper and

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Mr. Ernest Armstrong.

  Division No. 200.]

  AYES

  [12.12 p.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Cockeram, Eric

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Cooke, Robert

  Gray, Hamish

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Coombs, Derek

  Green, Alan

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Cooper, A. E.

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Astor, John

  Cordle, John

  Grylis, Michael

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Cormack, Patrick

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Awdry, Daniel

  Costain, A. P.

  Garden, Harold

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Critchley, Julian

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Crouch, David

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Balniel, Lord

  Crowder, F. P.

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Batsford, Brian

  Curran, Charles

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Bell, Ronald

  Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Benyon, W.

  Dean, Paul

  Hastings, Stephen

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Havers, Michael

  Biffen, John

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Hawkins, Paul

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Dixon, Piers

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Blaker, Peter

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Heseltine, Michael

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hicks, Robert

  Body, Richard

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Boscawen, Robert

  Dykes, Hugh

  Hiley, Joseph

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Eden, Sir John

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Bowden, Andrew

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Holland, Philip

  Braine, Bernard

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Bray, Ronald

  Emery, Peter

  Hornby, Richard

  Brewis, John

  Eyre, Reginald

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Farr, John

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Fell, Anthony

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Fidler, Michael

  Hunt, John

  Bryan, Paul

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Buck, Antony

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  James, David

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Fortescue, Tim

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Burden, F. A.

  Fowler, Norman

  Jessel, Toby

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Fox, Marcus

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Jopling, Michael

  Carlisle, Mark

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Gardner, Edward

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Channon, Paul

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Chapman, Sydney

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Kilfedder, James

  Chlchester-Clark, R.

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Churchill, W. S.

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Goodhart, Philip

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Gorst, John

  Kirk, Peter

  Clegg, Walter

  Gower, Raymond

  Kitson, Timothy

  752

  753

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Onslow, Cranley

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Knox, David

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

  Lambton, Antony

  Osborn, John

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Lane, David

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Stokes, John

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Sutcliffe, John

  Le Merchant, Spencer

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Tapsell, Peter

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Percival, Ian

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Loveridge, John

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  MacArthur, Ian

  Pounder, Rafton

  Tebbit, Norman

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Temple, John M.

  McLaren, Martin

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  McMaster, Stanley

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Raison, Timothy

  Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Tilney, John

  Maddan, Martin

  Redmond, Robert

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Madel, David

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Trew, Peter

  Maginnis, John E.

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Marten, Neil

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Mather, Carol

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Maude, Angus

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Mawby, Ray

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Waddington, David

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Wall, Patrick

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Rodgers, Sir John (Severoaks)

  Walters, Dennis

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

  Rost, Peter

  Warren, Kenneth

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Royle, Anthony

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Moate, Roger

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Molyneaux, James

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Money, Ernie

  Scott, Nicholas

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Monks, Mrs. Connie

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Sharples, Richard

  Wilkinson, John

  More, Jasper

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Simeons, Charles

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Worsley, Marcus

  Mudd, David

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Murton, Oscar

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Younger, Hon. George

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Soref, Harold

  Neave, Airey

  Spence, John

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Stainton, Keith

  Mr.Victor Goodhew and

  Normanton, Tom

  Stanbrook, lvor

  Mr. Keith Speed.

  Nott, John

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Dunn, James A.

  Albu, Austen

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Cohen, Stanley

  Eadie, Alex

  Allen, Scholefield

  Coleman, Donald

  Edelman, Maurice

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Concannon, J. D.

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Ashton, Joe

  Conlan, Bernard

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Ellis, Tom

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Crawshaw, Richard

  English, Michael

  Barnes, Michael

  Cronin, John

  Evans, Fred

  Barnett, Joel

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Beaney, Alan

  Grossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Dalyell, Tam

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Bishop, E. S.

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  Foley, Maurice

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Davidson, Arthur

  Foot, Michael

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Ford, Ben

  Booth, Albert

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Forrester, John

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Davies, Ifor (Cower)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

  Davie, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Freeson, Reginald

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Proven)

  Deakins, Eric

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Garrett, W. E.

  Buchan, Norman

  Delargy, H. J.

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Ginsburg, David

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Dempsey, James

  Golding, John

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Doig, Peter

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Cant, R. B.

  Dormand, J. D.

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Driberg, Tom

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Hamling, William

  754

  755

  Hannan, William (G'gow,Maryhill)

  McGuire, Michael

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Hardy, Peter

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Roper, John

  Harper, Joseph

  Mackie, John

  Rose, Paul B.

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Maclennan, Robert

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Hattersley, Roy

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Short, Mrs. Renée(W'hampton,N.E.)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Hilton, W. S.

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Sillars, James

  Horam, John

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield,E.)

  Silverman, Julius

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Marks, Kenneth

  Skinner, Dennis

  Howell. Denis (Small Heath)

  Marquand, David

  Small, William

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Meacher, Michael

  Spearing, Nigel

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Mendelson, John

  Stallard, A. W.

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Hunter, Adam

  Millan, Bruce

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Irvine,Rt.n.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Janner, Greville

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Strang, Gavin

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Molloy, William

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Swain, Thomas

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Taverne, Dick

  John, Brynmor

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Moyle, Roland

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Tinn, James

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Ogden, Eric

  Tomney, Frank

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Torney, Tom

  Jones,Rt.Hn.SirElwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Tuck, Raphael

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Oram, Bert

  Urwin, T. W.

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Orme, Stanley

  Varley, Eric G.

  Judd, Frank

  Oswald, Thomas

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Paget, R. T.

  Wallace, George

  Kerr, Russell

  Palmer, Arthur

  Watkins, David

  Lambie, David

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Weitzman, David

  Lamond, James

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Wellbeloved, James

  Latham, Arthur

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Lawson, George

  Pendry, Tom

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Pentland, Norman

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Leonard, Dick

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Whitlock, William

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Prescott, John

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Probert, Arthur

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Loughlin, Charles

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Richard, Ivor

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  McBride, Neil

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Mr. Ernest Armstrong and

  McCartney, Hugh

  Roberts, Rt.Hn. Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Mr. William Hamling.

  McElhone, Frank

  Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Division No. 201.]

  AYES

  [12.24 a.m.

  Allson, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Bowden, Andrew

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Clegg, Walter

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Braine, Bernard

  Cockeram, Eric

  Astor, John

  Bray, Ronald

  Cooke, Robert

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Brewis, John

  Coombs, Derek

  Awdry, Daniel

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Cooper, A. E.

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Cordle, John

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Balniel, Lord

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Costain, A. P.

  Batsford, Brian

  Bryan, Paul

  Critchley, Julian

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

  Crouch, David

  Bell, Ronald

  Buck, Antony

  Crowder, F. P.

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Curran, Charles

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Burden, F. A.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Benyon, W.

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  d'Aviedor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry,

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

  Biffen, John

  Carlisle, Mark

  Dean, Paul

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Channon, Paul

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Blaker, Peter

  Chapman, Sydney

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Dixon, Piers

  Body, Richard

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Boscawen, Robert

  Churchill, W. S.

  Drayson, G. B.

  756

  757

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, East)

  Dykes, Hugh

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Eden, Sir John

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Kirk, Peter

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Emery, Peter

  Knox, David

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Eyre, Reginald

  Lambton, Antony

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Farr, John

  Lane, David

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Fell, Anthony

  Langford-Holt, Slr John

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Rost, Peter

  Fidler, Michael

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Royle, Anthony

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Longden, Gilbert

  Scott, Nicholas

  Fortescue, Tim

  Loveridge, John

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Fowler, Norman

  MacArthur, Ian

  Sharples, Richard

  Fox, Marcus

  MeCrindle, R. A.

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  McLaren, Martin

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Simeons, Charles

  Gardner, Edward

  McMaster, Stanley

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Gilmour, Ian {Norfolk, C.)

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

  Soref, Harold

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Maddan, Martin

  Speed, Keith

  Godber, Rt. Hon. J. B.

  Madel, David

  Spence, John

  Goodhart, Philip

  Maginnis, John E.

  Stainton, Keith

  Goodhew, Victor

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Gorst, John

  Marten, Neil

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Gower, Raymond

  Mather, Carol

  Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Maude, Angus

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Gray, Hamish

  Mawby, Ray

  Stokes, John

  Green, Alan

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Sutcliffe, John

  Grylls, Michael

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Tapsell, Peter

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Gurden, Harold

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W.

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Moate, Roger

  Tebbit, Norman

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Molyneaux, James

  Temple, John M.

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Money, Ernie

  Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Monks, Mrs. Connie

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Haselhurst, Alan

  More, Jasper

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Hastings, Stephen

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Tilney, John

  Havers, Michael

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Hawkins, Paul

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Trew, Peter

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Mudd, David

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Heseltine, Michael

  Murton, Oscar

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Hicks, Robert

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Neave, Airey

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Hiley, Joseph

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Hill, John E. B.(Norfolk, s.)

  Normanton, Tom

  Waddington, David

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Nott, John

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Holland, Philip

  Onslow, Cranley

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Wall, Patrick

  Hornby, Richard

  Osborn, John

  Walters, Dennis

  Hornsby, Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Hunt, John

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Percival, Ian

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Wilkinson, John

  James, David

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Pounder, Rafton

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Jessel, Toby

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Worsley, Marcus

  Jopling, Michael

  Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Younger, Hon. George

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Raison, Timothy

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Kilfedder, James

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Mr. Bernard Weatherill and

  Redmond, Robert

  Mr. Hugh Rossi.

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Atkinson, Norman

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Albu, Austen

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Bishop, E. S.

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Barnes, Michael

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Allen, Scholefield

  Barnett, Joel

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Beaney, Alan

  Booth, Albert

  Ashton, Joe

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  758

  759

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Hattersley, Roy

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  O'Malley, Brian

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'Bury)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Oram, Bert

  Buchan, Norman

  Hilton, W. S.

  Orme, Stanley

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Horam, John

  Oswald, Thomas

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Cant, R. B.

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Hughes, Ft. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Pendry, Tom

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Pentland, Norman

  Clark, David (Colns Valley)

  Hunter, Adam

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Cohen, Stanley

  Janner, Greville

  Prescott, John

  Coleman, Donald

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Concannon, J. D.

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Probert, Arthur

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  John, Brynmor

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Cronin, John

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Johnson, James(K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Richard, Ivor

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Roderick, Gaerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Roper, John

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Rose, Paul B.

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Judd, Frank

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Kerr, Russell

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Deakins, Eric

  Kinnock, Neil

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  de Freltas, Rr. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Lambie, David

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Lamond, James

  Sillars, James

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Latham, Arthur

  Silverman, Julius

  Dempsey, James

  Lawson, George

  Skinner, Dennis

  Doig, Peter

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Small, William

  Dormand, J. D.

  Leonard, Dick

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Spearing, Nigel

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Driberg, Tom

  Lipton, Marcus

  Stallard, A. W.

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Dunn, James A.

  Loughlin, Charles

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Eadie, Alex

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Strang, Gavin

  Edelman, Maurice

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  McBride, Neil

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Swain, Thomas

  Ellis, Tom

  McElhone, Frank

  Taverne, Dick

  English, Michael

  McGuire, Michael

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)

  Evans, Fred

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Mackie, John

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Tinn, James

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Maclennan, Robert

  Tomney, Frank

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Torney, Tom

  Foley, Maurice

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Tuck, Raphael

  Foot, Michael

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Urwin, T. W.

  Ford, Ben

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Forrester, John

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Marks, Kenneth

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Freeson, Reginald

  Marquand, David

  Wallace, George

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Watkins,David

  Garrett, W. E.

  Meacher, Michael

  Weitzman, David

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Wellbeloved, James

  Ginsburg, David

  Mendelson, John

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Golding, John

  Mikardo, Ian

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Millan, Bruce

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Grant, John D. (Islington, East)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Whitlock, William

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Molloy, William

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Hamling, William

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Hardy, Peter

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Harper, Joseph

  Moyle, Roland

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Murray, Ronald King

  Mr. Ernest Armstrong and

  Ogden, Eric

  Mr. James Hamilton.

  760

  761

  Division No. 202.]

  AYES

  [12.35 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Fowler, Norman

  Maddan, Martin

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Fox, Marcus

  Madel, David

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Maginnis, John E.

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Astor, John

  Gardner, Edward

  Marten, Neil

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Mather, Carol

  Awdry, Daniel

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Maude, Angus

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Mawby, Ray

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Balniel, Lord

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Batsford, Brian

  Goodhart, Philip

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Goodhew, Victor

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Bell, Ronald

  Gorst, John

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Gower, Raymond

  Mitchell,Lt-Col.C(Aberdeenshire,W)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Benyon, W.

  Gray, Hamish

  Moate, Roger

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Green, Alan

  Molyneaux, James

  Biffen, John

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Money, Ernie

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Grylls, Michael

  Monks, Mrs. Connie

  Blaker, Peter

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Gurden, Harold

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Body, Richard

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Boscawen, Robert

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Mudd, David

  Bowden, Andrew

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Murton, Oscar

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Braine, Bernard

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Neave, Airey

  Bray, Ronald

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Brewis, John

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Normanton, Tom

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Hastings, Stephen

  Nott, John

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Havers, Michael

  Onslow, Cranley

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Hawkins, Paul

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Osborn, John

  Bryan, Paul

  Heseltine, Michael

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Buck, Antony

  Hicks, Robert

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Burden, F. A.

  Hiley, Joseph

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Percival, Ian

  Carlisle, Mark

  Holland, Philip

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Channon, Paul

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Chapman, Sydney

  Hornby, Richard

  Pounder, Rafton

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Hornsby-Smlth,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Churchill, W. S.

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Hunt, John

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Cockeram, Eric

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Raison, Timothy

  Cooke, Robert

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Coombs, Derek

  James, David

  Redmond, Robert

  Cooper, A. E.

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Cordle, John

  Jessel, Toby

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Costain, A. P.

  Jopling, Michael

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Critchley, Julian

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Crouch, David

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Crowder, F. P.

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Curran, Charles

  Kilfedder, James

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen.Jack

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Dean, Paul

  Kirk, Peter

  Rost, Peter

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Kitson, Timothy

  Royle Anthony

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Knight, Mrs.Jill

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Dixon, Piers

  Knox, David

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Lambton, Antony

  Scott, Nicholas

  Drayson, G. B.

  Lane, David

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Sharples, Richard

  Dykes, Hugh

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Shelton,William (Clapham)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Simeons, Charles

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Emery, Peter

  Longden, Gilbert

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Eyre, Reginald

  Loveridge, John

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Farr, John

  MacArthur, Ian

  Soref, Harold

  Fell, Anthony

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Speed, Keith

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  McLaren, Martin

  Spence, John

  Fidler, Michael

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Stainton, Keith

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  McMaster, Stanley

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Fortescue, Tim

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Stokes, John

  762

  763

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Trew, Peter

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Sutcliffe, John

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Tapsell, Peter

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Wilkinson, John

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Waddington, David

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Tebbit, Norman

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Worsley, Marcus

  Temple, John M.

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

  Wall, Patrick

  Younger, Hn. George

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Walters, Dennis

  Thomos, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Mr. Jasper More and

  Tilney, John

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Mr. Walter Clegg.

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Ellis, Tom

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Albu, Austen

  English, Michael

  Leonard, Dick

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Evans, Fred

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Allen, Scholefield

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Ashton, Joe

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Atkinson, Norman

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Loughlin, Charles

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Foley, Maurice

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Barnes, Michael

  Foot, Michael

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Barnett, Joel

  Ford, Ben

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Beaney, Alan

  Forrester, John

  McBride, Neil

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Freeson, Reginald

  McElhone, Frank

  Bishop, E. S.

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  McGuire, Michael

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Garrett, W. E.

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Mackie, John

  Booth, Albert

  Ginsburg, David

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Golding, John

  Maclennan, Robert

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Brown,Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Buchan, Norman

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Mallalieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Marks, Kenneth

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Hamling, William

  Marquand, David

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Cant, R. B.

  Hardy, Peter

  Meacher, Michael

  Carmichael, Neil

  Harper, Joseph

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mendelson, John

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Mikardo, Ian

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Hattersley, Roy

  Millan, Bruce

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Cohen, Stanley

  Hilton, W. S.

  Molloy, William

  Coleman, Donald

  Horam, John

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Concannon, J. D.

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn(Anglesey)

  Moyle, Roland

  Cronin, John

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Grossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Ogden, Eric

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Hunter, Adam

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Dalyell, Tam

  Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur (Edge Hill)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  Janner, Greville

  Oram, Bert

  Davidson, Arthur

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Orme, Stanley

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras, S.)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  John, Brynmor

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Deakins, Eric

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Delargy, H. J.

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Pendry, Tom

  Dell Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Pentland, Norman

  Dempsey, James

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Doig, Peter

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham, S.)

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Dormand, J. D.

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Prescott, John

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Judd, Frank

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Driberg, Tom

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Probert, Arthur

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Kerr, Russell

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Dunn, James A.

  Kinnock, Neil

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Lambie, David

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Eadie, Alex

  Lamond, James

  Richard, Ivor

  Edelman, Maurice

  Latham, Arthur

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Lawson, George

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  764

  765

  Roderick,CaerwynE.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Wallace, George

  Roper, John

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Watkins, David

  Rose, Paul B.

  Strang, Gavin

  Weitzman, David

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Wellbeloved, James

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Swain, Thomas

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Taverne, Dick

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Whitlock, William

  Sillars, James

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Silverman, Julius

  Tinn, James

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Tomney, Frank

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Small, William

  Torney, Tom

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Tuck, Raphael

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Spearing, Nigel

  Urwin, T. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Varley, Eric G.

  Mr. Ernest Armstrong and

  Stallard, A. W.

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Mr. James Hamilton.

  Division No. 203.]

  AYES

  [12.45 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Dean, Paul

  Hornby, Richard

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Dixon, Piers

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Astor, John

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hunt, John

  Awdry, Daniel

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  James, David

  Balniel, Lord

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Batsford, Brian

  Elliott, R. W. (N'C'tle-upon Tyne,N.)

  Jessel, Toby

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Emery, Peter

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Bell, Ronald

  Farr, John

  Jopling, Michael

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Fell, Anthony

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Benyon, W.

  Fidler, Michael

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Kilfedder, James

  Biffen, John

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Blaker, Peter

  Fortescue, Tim

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Fowler, Norman

  Kirk, Peter

  Body, Richard

  Fox, Marcus

  Kitson, Timothy

  Boscawen, Robert

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Knox, David

  Bowden, Andrew

  Gardner, Edward

  Lambton, Antony

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Lane, David

  Braine, Bernard

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Bray, Ronald

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Brewis, John

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Goodhart, Philip

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Gorst, John

  Longden, Gilbert

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Gower, Raymond

  Loveridge, John

  Buck, Antony

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  MacArthur, Ian

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Gray, Hamish

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Burden, F. A.

  Green, Alan

  McLaren, Martin

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Grylls, Michael

  McMaster, Stanley

  Carlisle, Mark

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Channon, Paul

  Gurden, Harold

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Chapman, Sydney

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Maddan, Martin

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Madel, David

  Churchill, W. S.

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Maginnis, John E.

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Marten, Neil

  Clegg, Walter

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Mather, Carol

  Cockeram, Eric

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Maude, Angus

  Cooke, Robert

  Hastings, Stephen

  Mawby, Ray

  Coombs, Derek

  Havers, Michael

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hawkins, Paul

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Cordle, John

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Heseltine, Michael

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Costain, A. P.

  Hicks, Robert

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Critchley, Julian

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

  Crouch, David

  Hiley, Joseph

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Crowder, F. P.

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Moate, Roger

  Curran, Charles

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Molyneaux, James

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hollard, Philip

  Money, Ernie

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Montgomery, Fergus

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

  766

  767

  More, Jasper

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Temple, John M.

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Mudd, David

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Murton, Oscar

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Tilney, John

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Neave, Airey

  Rost, Peter

  Trew, Peter

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Royle, Anthony

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Normanton, Tom

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Nott, John

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Onslow, Cranley

  Scott, Nicholas

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Osborn, John

  Sharples, Richard

  Waddington, David

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Simeons, Charles

  Wall, Patrick

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Walters, Dennis

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Percival, Ian

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick&L'mington)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Soref, Harold

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Speed, Keith

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Pounder, Rafton

  Spence, John

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Stainton, Keith

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Wilkinson, John

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Stoddart-Scott Col. Sir M.

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Stokes, John

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Raison, Timothy

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Sutcliffe, John

  Worsley, Marcus

  Redmond, Robert

  Tapsell, Peter

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Younger, Hn. George.

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Mr. Reginald Eyre and

  Tebbit, Norman

  Mr. Victor Goodhew.

  NOES

  Albu, Austen

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Hardy, Peter

  Allen, Scholefield

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Harper, Joseph

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Deakins, Eric

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Armstrong, Ernest

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Ashton, Joe

  Delargy, H. J.

  Hattersley, Roy

  Atkinson, Norman

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Dempsey, James

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Barnes, Michael

  Doig, Peter

  Hilton, W. S.

  Barnett, Joel

  Dormand, J. D.

  Horam, John

  Beaney, Alan

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Driberg, Tom

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Bishop, E. S.

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Dunn, James A.

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Booth, Albert

  Eddie, Alex

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Edelman, Maurice

  Hunter, Adam

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Janner, Greville

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Ellis, Tom

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Buchan, Norman

  English, Michael

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Evans, Fred

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  John, Brynmor

  Cant, R. B.

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Foley, Maurice

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, South)

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Foot, Michael

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Ford, Ben

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Forrester, John

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Cohen, Stanley

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Coleman, Donald

  Freeson, Reginald

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Concannon, J. D.

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Judd, Frank

  Conlan, Bernard

  Garrett, W. E.

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Kerr, Russell

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Ginsburg, David

  Kinnock, Neil

  Cronin, John

  Golding, John

  Lambie, David

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Lamond, James

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Latham, Arthur

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Lawson, George

  Dalyell, Tam

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N)

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  768

  769

  Lipton, Marcus

  Oram, Bert

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Orme, Stanley

  Stallard, A. W.

  Loughlin, Charles

  Oswald, Thomas

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Strang, Gavin

  McBride, Neil

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  McCartney, Hugh

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Swain, Thomas

  McElhone, Frank

  Pendry, Tom

  Taverne, Dick

  McGuire, Michael

  Pentland, Norman

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardiff,W.)

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Mackie, John

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Prescott, John

  Tinn, James

  Maclennan, Robert

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Tomney, Frank

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Torney, Tom

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Probert, Arthur

  Tuck, Raphael

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Urwin, T. W.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Marquand, David

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Richard, Ivor

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Meacher, Michael

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Wallace, George

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Watkins, David

  Mendelson, John

  Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Weitzman, David

  Mikardo, Ian

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Wellbeloved, James

  Millan, Bruce

  Roper, John

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Rose, Paul B.

  White, James (Glasgow, Pellok)

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Molloy, William

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Whitlock, William

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Short, Mrs. Renée(W'hampton,N.E.)

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Silkin Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Sillars, James

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Moyle, Roland

  Silverman, Julius

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Skinner, Dennis

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Small, William

  Ogden, Eric

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Spearing, Nigel

  Mr.William Hamling and

  O'Malley, Brian

  Mr. Kenneth Marks.

  Division No. 204.]

  AYES

  [12.57 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Channon, Paul

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Chapman, Sydney

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Fortescue, Tim

  Astor, John

  Churchill, W. S.

  Fowler, Norman

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Fox, Marcus

  Awdry, Daniel

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Clegg, Walter

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Cockeram, Eric

  Gardner, Edward

  Balniel, Lord

  Cooke, Robert

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Botsford, Brian

  Coombs, Derek

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Cooper, A. E.

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Bell, Ronald

  Cordle, John

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Costain, A. P.

  Goodhart, Philip

  Benyon, W.

  Critchley, Julian

  Goodhew, Victor

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Crouch, David

  Gorst, John

  Biffen, John

  Crowder, F. P.

  Gower, Raymond

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Curran, Charles

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Blaker, Peter

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Gray, Hamish

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Green, Alan

  Body, Richard

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj-Gen. Jack

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Boscawen, Robert

  Dean, Paul

  Grylls, Michael

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Bowden, Andrew

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Gurden, Harold

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Dixon, Piers

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Brains, Bernard

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Bray, Ronald

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Brewis, John

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Dykes, Hugh

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Buck, Antony

  Emery, Peter

  Hastings, Stephen

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Eyre, Reginald

  Havers, Michael

  Burden, F. A.

  Farr, John

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Fell, Anthony

  Heseltine, Michael

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Hicks, Robert

  Carlisle, Mark

  Fidler, Michael

  Higgins, Terence L.

  770

  771

  Hiley, Joseph

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Sharples, Richard

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Holland, Philip

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W.)

  Simeons, Charles

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Hornby, Richard

  Moate, Roger

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Molyneaux, James

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Money, Ernie

  Soref, Harold

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Speed, Keith

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  More, Jasper

  Spence, John

  Hunt, John

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Stainton, Keith

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  James, David

  Mudd, David

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Murton, Oscar

  Stokes, John

  Jessel, Toby

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Neave, Airey

  Sutcliffe, John

  Jopling, Michael

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Tapsell, Peter

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Normanton, Tom

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Nott, John

  Taylor,Edward M. (G'gow,Cathcart)

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Onslow, Cranley

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Kilfedder, James

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Osborn, John

  Tebbit, Norman

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Temple, John M.

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Kirk, Peter

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Tilney, John

  Knox, David

  Percival, Ian

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Lambton, Antony

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Trew, Peter

  Lane, David

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Pounder, Rafton

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Waddington, David

  Longden, Gilbert

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Loveridge, John

  Raison, Timothy

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  MacArthur, Ian

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Wall, Patrick

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Redmond, Robert

  Walters, Dennis

  McLaren, Martin

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Warren, Kenneth

  McMaster, Stanley

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Maddan, Martin

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Wilkinson, John

  Madel, David

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Maginnis, John E.

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Marten, Neil

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Worsley, Marcus

  Mather, Carol

  Rost, Peter

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Maude, Angus

  Royle, Anthony

  Younger, Hn. George

  Mawby, Ray

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Scott, Nicholas

  Mr. Bernard Weatherill and

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Mr. Paul Hawkins.

  NOES

  Albu, Austen

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Cant, R. B.

  Deakins, Eric

  Allen, Scholefield

  Carmichael, Neil

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Ashton, Joe

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Dempsey, James

  Atkinson, Norman

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Doig, Peter

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Dormand, J. D.

  Barnes, Michael

  Cohen, Stanley

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Barnett, Joel

  Coleman, Donald

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Beaney, Alan

  Concannon, J. D.

  Driberg, Tom

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Dunn, James A.

  Bishop, E. S.

  Grawshaw, Richard

  Dunnett, Jack

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Cronin, John

  Eadie, Alex

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Edelman, Maurice

  Booth, Albert

  Grossman, Rr. Hn. Richard

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Ellis, Tom

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  English, Michael

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Evans, Fred

  Buchan, Norman

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Fernyhough, E.

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  772

  773

  Foley, Maurice

  Lawson, George

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Foot, Michael

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Ford, Ben

  Leonard, Dick

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Forrester, John

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Freeson, Reginald

  Lipton, Marcus

  Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Garrett, W. E.

  Loughlin, Charles

  Roper, John

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Rose, Paul B.

  Ginsburg, David

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Golding, John

  McBride, Neil

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  McElhone, Frank

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  McGuire, Michael

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Sillars, James

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Mackie, John

  Silverman, Julius

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Skinner, Dennis

  Hamling, William

  Maclennan, Robert

  Small, William

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Hardy, Peter

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Spearing, Nigel

  Harper, Joseph

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Stallard, A. W.

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Marquand, David

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Hattersley, Roy

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Meacher, Michael

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Strang, Gavin

  Hilton, W. S.

  Mendelson, John

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Horam, John

  Mikardo, Ian

  Swain, Thomas

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Millan, Bruce

  Taverne, Dick

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Molloy, William

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Tinn, James

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Tomney, Frank

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Torney, Tom

  Hunter, Adam

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Tuck, Raphael

  Janner, Greville

  Moyle, Roland

  Urwin, T. W.

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Varley, Eric G.

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Ogden, Eric

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Wallace, George

  John, Brynmor

  O'Malley, Brian

  Watkins, David

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Oram, Bert

  Weitzman, David

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Orme, Stanloy

  Wellbeloved, James

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Whitlock, William

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Willian, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Judd, Frank

  Pendry, Tom

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Pentland, Norman

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Kerr, Russell

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Lamble, David

  Prescott, John

  Lamond, James

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Latham, Arthur

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Mr. Alan Fitch and

  Probert, Arthur

  Mr. Kenneth Marks.

  Division No. 205.]

  AYES

  [1.10 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Blaker, Peter

  Camphell,.Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Carlisle, Mark

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Body, Richard

  Channon, Paul

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Boscawen, Robert

  Chapman, Sydney

  Astor, John

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Bowden, Andrew

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Awdry, Daniel

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Churchill, W. S.

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Braine, Bernard

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Bray, Ronald

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Balniel, Lord

  Brewis, John

  Cockeram, Eric

  Batsford, Brian

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Cooke, Robert

  Beamish, Cot, Sir Tufton

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Coombs, Derek

  Bell, Ronald

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Cooper, A. E.

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Cordle, John

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Bryan, Paul

  Cormack, Patrick

  Benyon, W.

  Buck, Antony

  Costain, A. P.

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Critchley, Julian

  Biffen, John

  Burden, F. A.

  Crouch, David

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Crowder, F. P.

  774

  775

  Curran, Charles

  Jopling, Michael

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Redmond, Robert

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, MaJ.-Gen. Jack

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Dean, Paul

  Kilfedder, James

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Dixon, Piers

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Kirk, Peter

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Drayson, G. B.

  Kitson, Timothy

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  du Cann, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Knox, David

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Lambton, Antony

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Lane, David

  Rost, Peter

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Royle, Anthony

  Eyre, Reginald

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Farr, John

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Fell, Anthony

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Scott, Nicholas

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Fidler, Michael

  Longden, Gilbert

  Sharples, Richard

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Loveridge, John

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  MacArthur, Ian

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Simeons, Charles

  Fowler, Norman

  McLaren, Martin

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Fox, Marcus

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  McMaster, Stanley

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Soref, Harold

  Gardner, Edward

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Speed, Keith

  Gibson-Watt, David

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

  Spence, John

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Maddan, Martin

  Stainton, Keith

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Madel, David

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Maginnis, John E.

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Goodhart, Philip

  Marten, Neil

  Stokes, John

  Goodhew, Victor

  Mather, Carol

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Gorst, John

  Maude, Angus

  Sutcliffe, John

  Gower, Raymond

  Mawby, Ray

  Tapsell, Peter

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Gray, Hamish

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Green, Alan

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Grylls, Michael

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Tebbit, Norman

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshre,W)

  Temple, John M.

  Gurden, Harold

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Moate, Roger

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Molyneaux, James

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Money, Ernie

  Tilney, John

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  More, Jasper

  Trew, Peter

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Hastings, Stephen

  Mudd, David

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Havers, Michael

  Murton, Oscar

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Hawkins, Paul

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Waddington, David

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Neave, Airey

  Walder, David (Ciitheroe)

  Heseltine, Michael

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Hicks, Robert

  Normanton, Tom

  Wall, Patrick

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Nott, John

  Walters, Dennis

  Hiley, Joseph

  Onslow, Cranley

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Warren, Kenneth

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Osborn, John

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Holland, Philip

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Hornhy, Richard

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Wilkinson, John

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Percival, Ian

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Hunt, John

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Pounder, Rafton

  Worsley, Marcus

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  James, David

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Younger, Hon. George

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Jessel, Toby

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Mr. Walter Clegg and

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Raison, Timothy

  Mr. Tim Fortescue.

  NOES

  Albu, Austen

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Barnes, Michael

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Ashton, Joe

  Barnett, Joel

  Alien, Scholefield

  Atkinson, Norman

  Beaney, Alan

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  776

  777

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Hannon, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Bishop, E. S.

  Hardy, Peter

  Ogden, Eric

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Harper, Joseph

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Booth, Albert

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Oram, Bert

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Hattersley, Roy

  Orme, Stanley

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Oswald, Thomas

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Hilton, W. S.

  Palmer, Arthur

  Buchan, Norman

  Horam, John

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire,W.)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Pendry, Tom

  Cant, R. B.

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Pentland, Norman

  Carmichael, Neil

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Prescott, John

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Hunter, Adam

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Janner, Greville

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Probert, Arthur

  Cohen, Stanley

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Coleman, Donald

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Concannon, J. D.

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Conlan, Bernard

  John, Brynmor

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth C.)

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Garonwy(Caernarvon)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Roderick, CaerwynE.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Cronin, John

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Roper, John

  Grossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Rose, Paul B.

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Judd, Frank

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Davies, Denzil (Lianelly)

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Kerr, Russell

  Sillars, James

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Silverman, Julius

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney C.)

  Lambie, David

  Skinner, Dennis

  Deakins, Eric

  Lamond, James

  Small, William

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Latham, Arthur

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Lawson, George

  Spearing, Nigel

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Dempsey, James

  Leonard, Dick

  Stallard, A. W.

  Doig, Peter

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Stewart, Rt. Hn, Michael (Fulham)

  Dormand, J. D.

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Storehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Strang, Gavin

  Dribeg, Tom

  Loughlin, Charles

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Swain, Thomas

  Dunn, James A.

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Taverne, Dick

  Dunnett, Jack

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

  Eadie, Alex

  McBride, Neil

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Edelman, Maurice

  McCartney, Hugh

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  McElhone, Frank

  Tinn, James

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  McGuire, Michael

  Tomney, Frank

  Ellis, Tom

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Torney, Tom

  English, Michael

  Mackie, John

  Tuck, Raphael

  Evans, Fred

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Urwin, T. W.

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Maclennan, Robert

  Varley, Eric G.

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Foley, Maurice

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Wallace, George

  Foot, Michael

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Watkins, David

  Ford, Ben

  Marquand, David

  Weitzman, David

  Forrester, John

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Wellbeloved, James

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Meacher, Michael

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Freeson, Reginald

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Mendelson, John

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Garrett, W. E.

  Mikardo, Ian

  Whitlock, William

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Millan, Bruce

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Ginsburg, David

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Golding, John

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Grant, George (MOrpeth)

  Molloy, William

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Moyle, Roland

  Mr. Alan Fitch and

  Hamling, William

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Mr. Kenneth Marks.

  778

  779

  Division No. 206.]

  AYES

  [1.21 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Marten, Neil

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Gardner, Edward

  Mather, Carol

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Maude, Angus

  Astor, John

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Mawby, Ray

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Awdry, Daniel

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Goodhart, Philip

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Balniel, Lord

  Goodhew, Victor

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Batsford, Brian

  Gorst, John

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Gower, Raymond

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Bell, Ronald

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Moate, Roger

  Bennett, Sir Frederick (Torquay)

  Gray, Hamish

  Molyneaux, James

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Green, Alan

  Money, Ernie

  Benyon, W.

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Grylls, Michael

  More, Jasper

  Biffen, John

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Gurden, Harold

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Blaker, Peter

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Mudd, David

  Body, Richard

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Murton, Oscar

  Boscawen, Robert

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Neave, Airey

  Bowden, Andrew

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Normanton, Tom

  Braine, Bernard

  Hastings, Stephen

  Nott, John

  Bray, Ronald

  Havers, Michael

  Onslow, Cranley

  Brewis, John

  Hawkins, Paul

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Osborn, John

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Heseltine, Michael

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Hicks, Robert

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Buck, Antony

  Hiley, Joseph

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Burden, F. A.

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Percival, Ian

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Holland, Philip

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Campbell,Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Channon, Paul

  Hornby, Richard

  Pounder, Rafton

  Chapman, Sydney

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Churchill, W. S.

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Hunt, John

  Raison, Timothy

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Clegg, Walter

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Redmond, Robert

  Cockeram, Eric

  James, David

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Cooke, Robert

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Coombs, Derek

  Jessel, Toby

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Cooper, A. E.

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Cordle, John

  Jopling, Michael

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Cormack, Patrick

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Costain, A. P.

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Critchley, Julian

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Crouch, David

  Kilfedder, James

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Crowder, F. P.

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Curran, Charles

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Rost, Peter

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Kirk, Peter

  Royle, Anthony

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

  Kitson, Timothy

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Dean, Paul

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Knox, David

  Scott, Nicholas

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Lambton, Antony

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Dixon, Piers

  Lane, David

  Sharples, Richard

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Langford_Holt, Sir John

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Drayson, G. B.

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Simeon, Charles

  Dykes, Hugh

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Loveridge, John

  Soref, Harold

  Emery, Peter

  MacArthur, Ian

  Spence, John

  Farr, John

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Stainton, Keith

  Fell, Anthony

  McLaren, Martin

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Fidler, Michael

  McMaster, Stanley

  Stoddart-Scott Col. Sir M.

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Stokes, John

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

  Sutcliffe, John

  Fortescue, Tim

  Maddan, Martin

  Tapsell, Peter

  Fowler, Norman

  Martel, David

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Fox, Marcus

  Maginnis, John E.

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  780

  781

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Wilkinson, John

  Tebbit, Norman

  Waddington, David

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Temple, John M.

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Wall, Patrick

  Worsley, Marcus

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Walters, Dennis

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Tilney, John

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Younger, Hon. George

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Warren, Kenneth

  Trew, Peter

  Weatherill, Bernard

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Mr. Reginald Eyre and

  Turton, Rt, Hn. R. H.

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Mr. Keith Speed.

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  NOES

  Albu, Austen

  Fetcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  McBride, Neil

  Allen, Scholefield

  Foley, Maurice

  McCartney, Hugh

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Foot, Michael

  McElhone, Frank

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Ford, Ben

  McGuire, Michael

  Ashton, Joe

  Forrester, John

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Atkinson, Norman

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Mackie, John

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Freeson, Reginald

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Barnes, Michael

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Maclennan, Robert

  Barnett, Joel

  Garrett, W. E.

  McMillian, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Beaney, Alan

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Ginsburg, David

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Bishop, E. S.

  Golding, John

  Mallalleu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield,E.)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Meacher, Michael

  Booth, Albert

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Mendelson, John

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Milian, Bruce

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Hamling, William

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Buchan, Norman

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Hardy, Peter

  Molloy, William

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Harper, Joseph

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Cant, R. B.

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Hattersley, Roy

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Moyle, Roland

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Hilton, W. S.

  Murray, Ronald King

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Horam, John

  Ogden, Eric

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Cohen, Stanley

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Coleman, Donald

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Oram, Bert

  Concannon, J. D.

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Orme, Stanley

  Conlan, Bernard

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Cronin, John

  Hunter, Adam

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Janner, Greville

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Dalyell, Tam

  Jeger,Mrs,Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Pendry, Tom

  Davidson, Arthur

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Pentland, Norman

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  John, Brynmor

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Prescott, John

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Deakins, Eric

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Probert, Arthur

  Delargy, H. J.

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Jones,Rt.Hn.SirElwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Dempsey, James

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Doig, Peter

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Demand, J. D.

  Judd, Frank

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Kerr, Russell

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Driberg, Tom

  Kinnock, Nell

  Roper, John

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Lambie, David

  Rose, Paul B.

  Dunn, James A.

  Lamond, James

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Latham, Arthur

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Eadle, Alex

  Lawson, George

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Edelman, Maurice

  Leonard, Dick

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Sillars, James

  Ellis, Tom

  Lipton, Marcus

  Silverman, Julius

  English, Michael

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Skinner, Dennis

  Evans, Fred

  Loughlin, Charles

  Small, William

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  782

  783

  Spearing, Nigel

  Tomney, Frank

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Torney, Tom

  Whitlock,William

  Stallard, A. W.

  Tuck, Raphael

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Urwin, T. W.

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Strang, Gavin

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Wallace, George

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Swain, Thomas

  Watkins, David

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

  Weitzman, David

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Wellbeloved, James

  Mr. Alan Fitch and

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Mr. Kenneth Marks.

  Tinn, James

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Division No. 207.]

  AYES

  [1.32 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Drayson, G. B.

  Jessel, Toby

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Jopling, Michael

  Astor, John

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Awdry, Daniel

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Emery, Peter

  Kilfedder, James

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Eyre, Reginald

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Balniel, Lord

  Farr, John

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Batsford, Brian

  Fell, Anthony

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Beamish, Cot. Sir Tufton

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Kirk, Peter

  Bell, Ronald

  Fidler, Michael

  Kitson, Timothy

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Bennett,Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Knox, David

  Benyon, W.

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Lambton, Antony

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Fortescue, Tim

  Lane, David

  Biffen, John

  Fowler, Norman

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Fox, Marcus

  Legge-Bourke,Sir Harry

  Blaker, Peter

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Body, Richard

  Gardner, Edward

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Boscawen, Robert

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Longden, Gilbert

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Loveridge, John

  Bowden, Andrew

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  MacArthur, Ian

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Braine, Bernard

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  McLaren, Martin

  Bray, Ronald

  Goodhart, Philip

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Brewis, John

  Goodhew, Victor

  McMaster, Stanley

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Gorst, John

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Gower, Raymond

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Gray, Hamish

  Maddan, Martin

  Bryan, Paul

  Green, Alan

  Madel, David

  Buck, Antony

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Maginnis, John E.

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Grylis, Michael

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Burden, F. A.

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Marten, Neil

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Gurden, Harold

  Mather, Carol

  Channon, Paul

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Maude, Angus

  Chapman, Sydney

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Mawby, Ray

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Churchill, W. S.

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Clegg, Walter

  Hastings, Stephen

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

  Cockeram, Eric

  Havers, Michael

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Cooke, Robert

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Moate, Roger

  Coombs, Derek

  Heseltine, Michael

  Molyneaux, James

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hicks, Robert

  Money, Ernie

  Cordle, John

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Cormack, Patrick

  Hiley, Joseph

  More, Jasper

  Costain, A. P.

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Critchley, Julian

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Crouch, David

  Holland, Philip

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Crowder, F. P.

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Mudd, David

  Curran, Charles

  Hornby, Richard

  Murton, Oscar

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Neave, Airey

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid,Maj.-Gen. Jack

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Dean, Paul

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Normanton, Tom

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Hunt, John

  Nett, John

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Onslow, Cranley

  Dixon, Piers

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  James, David

  Osborn, John

  784

  785

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Sharples, Richard

  Trew, Peter

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh &

  Whitby) Tugendhat, Christopher

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Simeons, Charles

  van Straubenzee, W. R

  Percival, Ian

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Waddington, David

  Pounder, Rafton

  Soref, Harold

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Speed, Keith

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Spence, John

  Wall, Patrick

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Stainton, Keith

  Walters, Dennis

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Raison, Timothy

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Redmond, Robert

  Stokes, John

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Reed, Laurence (Bolton, E.)

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Sutcliffe, John

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Tapsell, Peter

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Wilkinson, John

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Woodhouse, Hn, Christopher

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Tebbit, Norman

  Worsley, Marcus

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Temple, John M.

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Rost, Peter

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Younger, Hn. George

  Royle, Anthony

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Mr. Paul Hawkins and

  Scott, Nicholas

  Tilney, James

  Mr. Hugh Rossi.

  NOES

  Albu, Austen

  Dempsey, James

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Doig, Peter

  Hunter, Adam

  Allen, Scholefield

  Dormand, J. D.

  Janner, Greville

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Douglas, Dick (Stiriingshire, E.)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Ashton, Joe

  Driberg, Tom

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Dunn, James A.

  John, Brynmor

  Barnes, Michael

  Dunnett, Jack

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Barnett, Joel

  Eadie, Alex

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Beaney, Alan

  Edelman, Maurice

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Jones, Barry (Flint, East)

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Bishop, E. S.

  Ellis, Tom

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  English, Michael

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Evans, Fred

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Booth, Albert

  Fernyhough, E.

  Judd, Frank

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Kerr, Russell

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Foley, Maurice

  Lambie, David

  Buchan, Norman

  Foot, Michael

  Lamond, James

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Ford, Ben

  Latham, Arthur

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Forrester, John

  Lawson, George

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Cant, R. B.

  Freeson, Reginald

  Leonard, Dick

  Carmichael, Neil

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm Northfield)

  Garrett, W. E.

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Ginsburg, David

  Loughlin, Charles

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Cohen, Stanley

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brlghtside)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Coleman, Donald

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  McBride, Nell

  Concannon, J. D.

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Conlan, Bernard

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  McElhone, Frank

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  McGuire, Michael

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Hardy, Peter

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Cronin, John

  Harper, Joseph

  Mackle, John

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Maclennan, Robert

  Dalyell, Tam

  Hattersley, Roy

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Hilton, W. S.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Horam, John

  Marks, Kenneth

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn.Douglas

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Deakins, Eric

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Meacher, Michael

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Delargy, H. J.

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Ctedwyn (Anglesey)

  Mendelson, John

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Milian, Bruce

  786

  787

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Probert, Arthur

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George(Cardilf,W.)

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Molloy, William

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Tinn, James

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Tomney, Frank

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Torney, Tom

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dner)

  Tuck, Raphael

  Moyle, Roland

  Roper, John

  Urwin, T. W.

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Rose, Paul B.

  Varley, Eric G.

  Murray, Ronald King

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Ogden, Eric

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Wallace, George

  O'Malley, Brian

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Watkins, David

  Oram, Bert

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Weitzman, David

  Orme, Stanley

  Sillars, James

  Wellbeloved, James

  Oswald, Thomas

  Silverman, Julius

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Skinner, Dennis

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Small, William

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Whitlock, William

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Spearing, Nigel

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Pendry, Tom

  Stallard, A. W.

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Pentland, Norman

  Stewart,Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Prescott, John

  Strang, Gavin

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Mr. William Hamling and

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Swain, Thomas

  Mr. John Golding.

  Division No. 208.]

  AYES

  [1.53 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Cooke, Robert

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Coombs, Derek

  Grylls, Michael

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Cooper, A. E.

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Cordle, John

  Gurden, Harold

  Astor, John

  Cormack, Patrick

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Costain, A. P.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Awdry, Daniel

  Critchley, Julian

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Crouch, David

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Curran, Charles

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Balniel, Lord

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Batsford, Brian

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Beamish, Co. Sir Tufton

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

  Hastings, Stephen

  Bell, Ronald

  Dean, Paul

  Havers, Michael

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Hawkins, Paul

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Benyon, W.

  Dixon, Piers

  Heseltine, Michael

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Hicks, Robert

  Biffen, John

  Drayson, G. B.

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Biggs-Davison, John

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Hiley, Joseph

  Blaker, Peter

  Dykes, Hugh

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Edwards Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Body, Richard

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Holland, Philip

  Boscawen, Robert

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Emery, Peter

  Hornby, Richard

  Bowden, Andrew

  Eyre, Reginald

  Hornsby-Smith.Rt.Hn.Dame Patricla

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Farr, John

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Braine, Bernard

  Fell, Anthony

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Bray, Ronald

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Brewis, John

  Fidler, Michael

  Hunt, John

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  James, David

  Bruce-Gardyee, J.

  Fowler, Norman

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Bryan, Paul

  Fox, Marcus

  Jessel, Toby

  Buck, Antony

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Jopling, Michael

  Burden, F. A.

  Gardner, Edward

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Kilfedder, James

  Channon, Paul

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Chapman, Sydney

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Goodhart, Philip

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Goodhew, Victor

  Kirk, Peter

  Churchill, W. S.

  Gorst, John

  Kitson, Timothy

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Gower, Raymond

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Knox, David

  Clegg, Walter

  Gray, Hamish

  Lambton, Antony

  Cockeram, Eric

  Green, Alan

  Lane, David

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  788

  789

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Osborn, John

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Stokes, John

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Longden, Gilbert

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Sutcliffe, John

  Loveridge, John

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Tapsell, Peter

  MacArthur, Ian

  Percival, Ian

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  McLaren, Martin

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Pounder, Rafton

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  McMaster, Stanley

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Tebbit, Norman

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Temple, John M.

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  McNair-Wilson,Patrick (New Forest)

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Maddan, Martin

  Raison, Timothy

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Madel, David

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Tilney, John

  Maginnis, John E.

  Redmond, Robert

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Trew, Peter

  Marten, Neil

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Mather, Carol

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Maude, Angus

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Mawby, Ray

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, North)

  Waddington, David

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Wall, Patrick

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

  Rost, Peter

  Walters, Dennis

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Royle, Anthony

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Moate, Roger

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Warren, Kenneth

  Molyneaux, James

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Money, Ernie

  Scott, Nicholas

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Sharples, Richard

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Wilkinson, John

  Mudd, David

  Simeons, Charles

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Murton, Oscar

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Neave, Airey

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Worsley, Marcus

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Soref, Harold

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Normanton, Tom

  Speed, Keith

  Younger, Hn. George

  Nott, John

  Spence, John

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Onslow Cranley

  Stainton, Keith

  Mr. Jasper More and

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Mr. Tim Fortescue.

  NOES

  Albu, Austen

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Forrester, John

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Allen, Scholefield

  Cronin, John

  Freeson, Reginald

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Garrett, W. E.

  Ashton, Joe

  Dalyell, Tam

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Atkinson, Norman

  Davidson, Arthur

  Ginsburg, David

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Barnes, Michael

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Barnett, Joel

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Beaney, Alan

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Deakins, Eric

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Bidwell, Sydney

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Bishop, E. S.

  Delargy, H. J.

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Hardy, Peter

  Booth, Albert

  Dempsey, James

  Harper, Joseph

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Dormand, J. D.

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Hattersley, Roy

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Driberg, Tom

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Buchan, Norman

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Hilton, W. S.

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Eadie, Alex

  Horam, John

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshine, W.)

  Edelman, Maurice

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Cant, R. B.

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Ellis, Tom

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  English, Michael

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Evans, Fred

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Hunter, Adam

  Cohen, stanley

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Janner, Grevilie

  Coleman, Donald

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Concannon, J. D.

  Foley, Maurice

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Foot, Michael

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Ford, Ben

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  790

  791

  John, Brynmor

  Mikardo, Ian

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Millan, Bruce

  Sillars, James

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Silverman, Julius

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Molloy, William

  Small, William

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Spearing, Nigel

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Stallard, A. W.

  Judd, Frank

  Moyle, Roland

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Mulley, Rt. Hn, Frederick

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Kerr, Russell

  Murray, Ronald King

  Stonehrouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Kinnock, Neil

  Ogden, Eric

  Strang, Gavin

  Lambie, David

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Lamond, James

  O'Malley, Brian

  Swain, Thomas

  Latham, Arthur

  Oram, Bert

  Taverne, Dick

  Lawson, George

  Orme, Stanley

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Oswald, Thomas

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Leonard, Dick

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Tinn, James

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Tomney, Frank

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Torney, Tom

  Loughlin, Charles

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Tuck, Raphael

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Pendry, Tom

  Urwin, T. W.

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Pentland, Norman

  Varley, Eric G.

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Wainwright, Edwin

  McBride, Neil

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Prescott, John

  Wallace, George

  McElhone, Frank

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Watkins, David

  McGuire, Michael

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Weitzman, David

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Probert, Arthur

  Wellbeloved, James

  Mackie, John

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Maclennan, Robert

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Whitlock, William

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Willey, Rt. Hn, Frederick

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Roderick, CaerwynE.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Wilson, Alexander(Hamilton)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield,E.)

  Roper, John

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Marks, Kenneth

  Rose, Paul B.

  Wilson william (coventry,S.)

  Marquand, David

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Mason, Rt Hn Roy

  Meacher, Michael

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Mr. William Hamling and

  Mendelson, John

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Mr. John Golding.

  Division No. 209.)

  AYES

  [2.4 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Buck, Antony

  Dykes, Hugh

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Burden, F. A.

  Elliot, Capt. Walter(Carshalton)

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Astor, John

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Emery, Peter

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Eyre, Reginald

  Awdry, Daniel

  Channon, Paul

  Farr, John

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Chapman, Sydney

  Fell, Anthony

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Balniel, Lord

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Fidler, Michael

  Batsford, Brian

  Churchill, W. S.

  Finsherg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Beamish, Col, Sir Tufton

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Bell, Ronald

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushclitfe)

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Clegg, Walter

  Fortescue, Tim

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Cockeram, Eric

  Fowler, Norman

  Benyon, W.

  Cooke, Robert

  Fox, Marcus

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Coombs, Derek

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Biffen, John

  Cooper, A. E.

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Cordle, John

  Gardner, Edward

  Blaker, Peter

  Cormack, Patrick

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Costain, A. P.

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Body, Richard

  Critchley, Julian

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Boscawen, Robert

  Crouch, David

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Curran, Charles

  Godber, lit. Hn. J. B.

  Bowden, Andrew

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Goodhart, Philip

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Gorst, John

  Braine, Bernard

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen.Jack

  Gower, Raymond

  Bray, Ronald

  Dean, Paul

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Brewis, John

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Gray, Hamish

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Green, Alan

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Dixon, Piers

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Grylls, Michael

  Bruce-Cardyne, J.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Bryan, Paul

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Gurden, Harold

  792

  793

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Maddan, Martin

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Madel, David

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Maginnis, John E.

  Scott, Nicholas

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Marten, Neil

  Sharples, Richard

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Mather, Carol

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Maude, Angus

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Hastings, Stephen

  Mawby, Ray

  Simeons, Charles

  Havers, Michael

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Hawkins, Paul

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Heseltine, Michael

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Soref, Harold

  Hicks, Robert

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Spence, John

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W.)

  Stainton, Keith

  Hiley, Joseph

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Moate, Roger

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Molyneaux, James

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Holland, Philip

  Money, Ernie

  Stokes, John

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Hamby, Richard

  More, Jasper

  Sutcliffe, John

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Tapsell, Peter

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Mudd, David

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Hunt, John

  Murton, Oscar

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Tebbit, Norman

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Neave, Airey

  Temple, John M.

  James, David

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Normanton, Tom

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Jessel, Toby

  Nott, John

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Onslow, Cranley

  Tinley, John

  Jopling, Michael

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Osborn, John

  Trew, Peter

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Kilfedder, James

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  van Straubcnzee, W. R.

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Percival, Ian

  Waddington, David

  Kirk, Peter

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Pink, R. Banner

  Walker-Smith, Rt.Hn. Sir Derek

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Pounder, Rafton

  Wall, Patrick

  Knox, David

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Walters, Dennis

  Lambton, Antony

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Lane, David

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Warren, Kenneth

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Raison, Timothy

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Le Merchant, Spencer

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Lewis, Kennethh (Rutland))

  Redmond, Robert

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Longden, Gilbert

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Wilkinson, John

  Loveridge, John

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  MacArthur, Ian

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Woodnutt, Mark

  McLaren, Martin

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Worsley, Marcus

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Wy1ie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  McMaster, Stanley

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Younger. Hn. George

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  McNair-W ilson, Michael

  Rost, Peter

  Mr. Victor Goodhew and

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Royle, Anthony

  Mr. Keith Speed.

  NOES

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Buchan, Norman

  Dalyell, Tam

  Allen, Scholefield

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshiro, W.)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Ashton, Joe

  Cant, R. B.

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Carmichael, Neil

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Deakins, Eric

  Barnes, Michael

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Barnett, Joel

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Delargy, H. J.

  Beaney, Alan

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Dempsey, James

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Cohen, Stanley

  Doig, Peter

  Bishop, E. S.

  Coleman, Donald

  Dormand, J. D.

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Concannon, J. D.

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Booth, Albert

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Driberg, Tom

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Cronin, John

  Dunnett, Jack

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Proven)

  Grossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Eadie, Alex

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Edelman, Maurice

  794

  795

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Lambie, David

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Ellis, Tom

  Lamond, James

  Probert, Arthur

  English, Michael

  Latham, Arthur

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Evans, Fred

  Lawson, George

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Leonard, Dick

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'cn&R'dnor)

  Foley, Maurice

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Foot, Michael

  Loughlin, Charles

  Roper, John

  Ford, Ben

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Rose, Paul B.

  Forrester, John

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Freeson, Reginald

  McBride, Neil

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  McCartney, Hugh

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Garrett, W. E.

  McElhone, Frank

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  McGuire, Michael

  Sillars, James

  Ginsburg, David

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Silverman, Julius

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Mackie, John

  Skinner, Dennis

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Small, William

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Maclennan, Robert

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Spearing, Nigel

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Stallard, A. W.

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfield, E.)

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Hardy, Peter

  Marks, Kenneth

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Harper, Joseph

  Marquand, David

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Strang, Gavin

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Meachcr, Michael

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Hattersley, Roy

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Swain, Thomas

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Mendelson, John

  Taverne, Dick

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Mikardo, Ian

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff, W.)

  Hilton, W. S.

  Millan, Bruce

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Horam, John

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Tinn, James

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Molloy, William

  Tomney, Frank

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Torney, Tom

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Tuck, Raphael

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Urwin, T. W.

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Moyle, Roland

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Hunter, Adam

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Janner, Greville

  Murray, Ronald King

  Wallace, George

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Ogden, Eric

  Watkins, David

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Weitzman, David

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Wellbeloved, James

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Oram, Bert

  White, James(Glasgow, Pollok)

  John, Brynmor

  Orme, Stanley

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Whitlock, William

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Jones,Rt.Hn.SirElwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Jones, Gwynore (Carmarthen)

  Pendry, Tom

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Pentland, Norman

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Judd, Frank

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Mr. William Hamling and

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Mr. John Golding.

  Kerr, Russell

  Prescott, John

  Division No. 210]

  AYES

  [2.14 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Biffen, John

  Buck, Anthony

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Blaker, Peter

  Burden, F. A.

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Astor, John

  Body, Richard

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Boscawen, Robert

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Awdry, Daniel

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Channon, Paul

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Bowden, Andrew

  Chapman, Sydney

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Balniel, Lord

  Braine, Bernard

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Batsford, Brian

  Bray, Ronald

  Churchill, W. S.

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Brewis, John

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Bell, Ronald

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Bennett, Sir Frederick (Torquay)

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Clegg, Walter

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Cockeram, Eric

  Benyon, W.

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Cooke, Robert

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Bryan, Paul

  Coombs, Derek

  796

  797

  Cooper, A. E.

  James, David

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Cordle, John

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Cormack, Patrick

  Jessel, Toby

  Raison, Timothy

  Costain, A. P.

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Critchley, Julian

  Jopling, Michael

  Redmond, Robert

  Crouch, David

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Curran, Charles

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Kilfedder, James

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Dean, Paul

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Dixon, Piers

  Kirk, Peter

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Kitson, Timothy

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Drayson, G. B.

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Knox, David

  Rost, Peter

  Dykes, Hugh

  Lambton, Antony

  Royle, Anthony

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Lane, David

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Scott, Nicholas

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Emery, Peter

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Sharples, Richard

  Eyre, Reginald

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Farr, John

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Fell, Anthony

  Longden, Gilbert

  Simeons, Charles

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Loveridge, John

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Fidler, Michael

  MacArthur, Ian

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  McLaren, Martin

  Soref, Harold

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Speed, Keith

  Fortescue, Tim

  McMaster, Stanley

  Spence, John

  Fowler, Norman

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Stainton, Keith

  Fox, Marcus

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Stewart-Smith, D.G. (Belper)

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Maddan, Martin

  Stokes, John

  Gardner, Edward

  Madel, David

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Maginnis, John E.

  Sutcliffe, John

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Tapsell, Peter

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Marten, Neil

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Mather, Carol

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow,Cathcart)

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Maude, Angus

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Goodhart, Philip

  Mawby, Ray

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Goodhew, Victor

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Tebbit, Norman

  Gorst, John

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Temple, John M.

  Gower, Raymond

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Gray, Hamish

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S).

  Green, Alan

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

  Tilney, John

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Grylls, Michael

  Moate, Roger

  Trew, Peter

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Molyneaux, James

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Gurden, Harold

  Money, Ernie

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  More, Jasper

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm

  Waddington, David

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Mudd, David

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Murton, Oscar

  Wall, patrick

  Hastings, Stephen

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Walters, Dennis

  Havers, Michael

  Neave, Airey

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Warren, Kenneth

  Heseltine, Michael

  Normanton, Tom

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Hicks, Robert

  Nott, John

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Onslow, Cranley

  Whitelaw, William

  Hiley, Joseph

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Osborn, John

  Wilkinson, John

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Holland, Philip

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Hornby, Richard

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Worsley, Marucs

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Percival, Ian

  Younger, Hon. George

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Hunt, John

  Pounder, Rafton

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Mr. Bernard Weatherill and

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Mr. Paul Hawkins.

  NOES

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Ashton, Joe

  Barnett, Joel

  Allen, Scholefield

  Atkinson, Norman

  Beaney, Alan

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Barnes, Michael

  Bidwell, Sydney

  798

  799

  Bishop, E. S.

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Ogden, Eric

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Hattersley, Roy

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Booth, Albert

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  O'Malley, Brian

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Oram, Bert

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Hilton, W. S.

  Orme, Stanley

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Horam, John

  Oswald, Thomas

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Buchan, Norman

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Cant, R. B.

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Pendry, Tom

  Carmichael, Neil

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Pentland, Norman

  Carter, Ray (Birmingham, Northfield)

  Hunter, Adam

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Janner, Greville

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Prescott, John

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Cohen, Stanley

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Probert, Arthur

  Coleman, Donald

  John, Brynmor

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Concannon, J. D.

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Cronin, John

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Roper, John

  Dalyell, Tam

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Rose, Paul B.

  Davidson, Arthur

  Judd, Frank

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Kerr, Russell

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney,C.)

  Lambie, David

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Deakins, Eric

  Lamond, James

  Sillars, James

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Latham, Arthur

  Silverman, Julius

  Delargy, H. J.

  Lawson, George

  Skinner, Dennis

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Small, William

  Dempsey, James

  Leonard, Dick

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Doig, Peter

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Spearing, Nigel

  Dormand, J. D.

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Stallard, A. W.

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Loughlin, Charles

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Dunn, James A.

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Dunnett, Jack

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Strang, Gavin

  Eadie, Alex

  McBride, Neil

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Swain, Thomas

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  McElhone, Frank

  Taverne, Dick

  Ellis, Tom

  McGuire, Michael

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff, W.)

  English, Michael

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Evans, Fred

  Mackle,John

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Tinn, James

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Maclennan, Robert

  Tomney, Frank

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Torney, Tom

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Urwin, T. W.

  Foley, Maurice

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Foot, Michael

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Ford, Ben

  Marks, Kenneth

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Forrester, John

  Marquand, David

  Wallace, George

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Watkins David

  Freeson, Reginald

  Meacher, Michael

  Weitzman, David

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Wellbeloved, James

  Garrett, W. E.

  Mendelson, John

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Mikardo, Ian

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Ginsburg, David

  Millan, Bruce

  Whitlock, William

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Molloy, William

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hardy, Peter

  Moyle, Roland

  Mr. William Hamling and

  Harper, Joseph

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Mr. John Golding.

  800

  801

  Division No. 211.]

  AYES

  [2.25 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Fox, Marcus

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Marten, Neil

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Mather, Carol

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Gardner, Edward

  Maude, Angus

  Astor, John

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Mawby, Ray

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Awdry, Daniel

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Balniel, Lord

  Goodhart, Philip

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Batsford, Brian

  Goodhew, Victor

  Mitchell,Lt.-Co1.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Gorst, John

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Bell, Ronald

  Gower, Raymond

  Moate, Roger

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Molyneaux, James

  Bennet Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Gray, Hamish

  Money, Ernie

  Benyon, W.

  Green, Alan

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Biffen, John

  Grylls, Michael

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Blaker, Peter

  Gurden, Harold

  Mudd, David

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Murton, Oscar

  Body, Richard

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Boscawen, Robert

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Neave, Airey

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Bowden, Andrew

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Normanton, Tom

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Nott, John

  Braine, Bernard

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Onslow, Cranley

  Bray, Ronald

  Hastings, Stephen

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Brewis, John

  Havers, Michael

  Osborn, John

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Hawkins, Paul

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Heseltine, Michael

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Hicks, Robert

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Bryan, Paul

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Buck, Antony

  Hiley, Joseph

  Percival, Ian

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Burden, F. A.

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Holland, Philip

  Pounder, Rafton

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Hornby, Richard

  Price, David (Eastlelgh)

  Channon, Paul

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Chapman, Sydney

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Raison, Timothy

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Churchill, W. S.

  Hunt, John

  Redmond, Robert

  Clark, William (Surrey, East)

  Hutchison, Milchael Clark

  Reed, Laurence (Bolton, E.)

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Cockeram, Eric

  James, David

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Cooke, Robert

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Coombs, Derek

  Jessel, Toby

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Cooper, A. E.

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Cordle, John

  Jopling, Michael

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Costain, A. P.

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Rost, Peter

  Critchley, Julian

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Royle, Anthony

  Crouch, David

  Kilfedder, James

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Curran, Charles

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S)

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Scott, Nicholas

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

  Kirk, Peter

  Sharples, Richard

  Dean, Paul

  Kitson, Timothy

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Knigt, Mrs. Jill

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Knox, David

  Simeons, Charles

  Dixon, Piers

  Lambton, Antony

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Lane, David

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Drayson, C. B.

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick &L' mington)

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Soref, Harold

  Dykes, Hugh

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Speed, Keith

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Spence, John

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Stainton, Keith

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyno,N.)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Emery, Peter

  Loveridge, John

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Eyre, Reginald

  MacArthur, Ian

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Farr, John

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Stokes, John

  Fell, Anthony

  McLaren, Martin

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Sutcliffe, John

  Fidler, Michael

  McMaster, Stanley

  Tapsell, peter

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Fortescue, Tim

  Maddan, Martin

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Fowler, Norman

  Madel, David

  Tebbit, Norman

  Maginnis, John E.

  802

  803

  Temple, John M.

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Wilkinson, John

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Wall, Patrick

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Tilney, John

  Walters, Dennis

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Worsley, Marcus

  Trew, Peter

  Warren, Kenneth

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Younger, Hn. George

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Mr. Jasper More and

  Waddington, David

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Mr. Walter Glegg.

  NOES

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Ford, Ben

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Allen, Scholefield

  Forrester, John

  Maclennan, Robert

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Freeson, Reginald

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Ashton, Joe

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Garrett, W. E.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfield, E.)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Marks, Kenneth

  Barnes, Michael

  Ginsburg, David

  Marquand, David

  Barnett, Joel

  Golding, John

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Beaney, Alan

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Meacher, Michael

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Mendelson, John

  Bishop, E. S.

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Millan, Bruce

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Booth, Albert

  Hamling, William

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Molloy, William

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Hardy, Peter

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Buchan, Norman

  Hattersley, Roy

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Moyle, Roland

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Hilton, W. S.

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Horam, John

  Murray, Ronald King

  Cant, R. B.

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Ogden, Eric

  Carmichael, Neil

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  O'Malley, Brian

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Oram, Bert

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Orme, Stanley

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Cohen, Stanley

  Hunter, Adam

  Palmer, Arthur

  Concannon, J. D.

  Janner, Greville

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'namp;St.P'cras,S.)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Pendry, Tom

  Cronin, John

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Pentland, Norman

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  John, Brynmor

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Dalyell, Tam

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Prescott, John

  Davidson, Arthur

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Probert, Arthur

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Deakins, Eric

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Judd, Frank

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Kerr, Russell

  Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Dempsey, James

  Kinnock, Neil

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Doig, Peter

  Lambie, David

  Roper, John

  Dormand, J. D.

  Lamond, James

  Rose, Paul B.

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Latham, Arthur

  Ross, Rt. Hn. william (Kilmarnock)

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Lawson, George

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Dunn, James A.

  Leonard, Dick

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Eadie, Alex

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Sillars, James

  Edelman, Maurice

  Lipton, Marcus

  Silverman, Julius

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Skinner, Dennis

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Loughlin, Charles

  Small, William

  Ellis, Tom

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  English, Michael

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Spearing, Nigel

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  McBride, Neil

  Stallard, A. W.

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  McElhone, Frank

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Foley, Maurice

  McGuire, Michael

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Foot, Michael

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Strang, Gavin

  Mackie, John

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  804

  805

  Swain, Thomas

  Varley, Eric G.

  Whitlock William

  Taverne, Dick

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Wallace, George

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Watkins, David

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Tinn, James

  Weitzman, David

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Tomney, Frank

  Wellbeloved, James

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Torney, Tom

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Mr. Joseph Harper and

  Urwin, T. W.

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Mr. Donald Coleman.

  Division No. 212.]

  AYES

  [2.36 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Kilfedder, James

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Astor, John

  Emery, Peter

  Kirk, Peter

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Farr, John

  Kitson, Timothy

  Awdry, Daniel

  Fell, Anthony

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Knox, David

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Fidler, Michael

  Lambton, Antony

  Balniel, Lord

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Lane, David

  Batsford, Brian

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Bell, Ronald

  Fortescue, Tim

  Le Merchant, Spencer

  Bennett, Sir Frederick (Torquay)

  Fowler, Norman

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Fox, Marcus

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Benyon, W.

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Loveridge, John

  Biffen, John

  Gardner, Edward

  MacArthur, Ian

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Gibson-Watt, David

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Blaker, Peter

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  McLaren, Martin

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Body, Richard

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  McMaster, Stanley

  Boscawen, Robert

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Goodhart, Philip

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Bowden, Andrew

  Gorst, John

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Gower, Raymond

  Maddan, Martin

  Braine, Bernard

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Madel, David

  Bray, Ronald

  Gray, Hamish

  Maginnis, John E.

  Brewis, John

  Green, Alan

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Marten, Neil

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Grylls, Michael

  Mather, Carol

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Maude, Angus

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Gurden, Harold

  Mawby, Ray

  Bryan, Paul

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Buck, Antony

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Burden, F. A.

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Michell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire,W)

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Channon, Paul

  Hastings, Stephen

  Moate, Roger

  Chapman, Sydney

  Havers, Michael

  Molyneaux, James

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Hawkins, Paul

  Money, Ernie

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Churchill, W. S.

  Heseltine, Michael

  More, Jasper

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Hicks, Robert

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Clegg, Walter

  Hiley, Joseph

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Cockeram, Eric

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Mudd, David

  Cooke, Robert

  Hiet, James (Southampton, Test)

  Murton, Oscar

  Coombs, Derek

  Holland, Philip

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Cooper, A. E.

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Neave, Airey

  Cordle, John

  Hornby, Richard

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Cormack, Patrick

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Normanton, Tom

  Costain, A. P.

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Nott, John

  Critchley, Julian

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Onslow, Cranley

  Crouch, David

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Curran, Charles

  Hunt, John

  Osborn, John

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj-Gen. Jack

  James, David

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Dean, Paul

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Jessel, Toby

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield W.)

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Percival, Ian

  Dixon, Piers

  Jopling, Michael

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Drayson, G. B.

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Pounder, Rafton

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  806

  807

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Soref, Harold

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Raison, Timothy

  Speed, Keith

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Spence, John

  Waddington, David

  Redmond, Robert

  Stainton, Keith

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Wall, Patrick

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Walters, Dennis

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Stokes, John

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Warren, Kenneth

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff,N.)

  Sutcliffe, John

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Tapsell, Peter

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Rost, Peter

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Royle, Anthony

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Wilkinson, John

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Tebbit, Norman

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Temple, John M.

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Scott, Nicholas

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Worsley, Marcus

  Sharples, Richard

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Tilney, John

  Younger, Hon. George

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Simeons, Charles

  Trew, Peter

  Mr. Reginald Eyre and

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Mr. Victor Goodhew.

  NOES

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  John, Brynmor

  Allen, Scholefield

  Dunn, James A.

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Eadie, Alex

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Ashton, Joe

  Edelman, Maurice

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Barnes, Michael

  Ellis, Tom

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Barnett, Joel

  English, Michael

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Beaney, Alan

  Evans, Fred

  Judd, Frank

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Kerr, Russell

  Bishop, E. S.

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Lambie, David

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Foley, Maurice

  Lamond, James

  Booth, Albert

  Foot, Michael

  Latham, Arthur

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Ford, Ben

  Lawson, George

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Forrester, John

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Leonard, Dick

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Freeson, Reginald

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

  Buchan, Norman

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Garrett, W. E.

  Lipton, Marcus

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Ginsburg, David

  Loughlin, Charles

  Cant, R. B.

  Golding, John

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  McBride, Neil

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  McElhone, Frank

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  McGuire, Michael

  Cohen, Stanley

  Hamling, William

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Concannon, J. D.

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Mackie, John

  Conlan, Bernard

  Hardy, Peter

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Maclennan, Robert

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Cronin, John

  Hattersley, Roy

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W.(Huddersfieid,E.)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Hilton, W. S.

  Marks, Kenneth

  Davidson, Arthur

  Horam, John

  Marquand, David

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Meacher, Michael

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney C.)

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Mendelson, John

  Deakins, Eric

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Mikardo, Ian

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Millan, Bruce

  Delargy, H. J.

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Hunter, Adam

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Dempsey, James

  Janner, Greville

  Molloy, William

  Doig, Peter

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Dormand, J. D.

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  808

  809

  Moyle, Roland

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Coronwy(Caernarvon)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Tinn, James

  Ogden, Eric

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Tomney, Frank

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Roper, John

  Torney, Tom

  O'Malley, Brian

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Urwin, T. W.

  Oram, Bert

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Orme, Stanley

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Oswald, Thomas

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Wallace, George

  Palmer, Arthur

  Sillars, James

  Watkins, David

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Silverman, Julius

  Weitzman, David

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Skinner, Dennis

  Wellbeloved, James

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Small, William

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Pendry, Tom

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Pentland, Norman

  Spearing, Nigel

  Whitlock, William

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Stallard, A. W.

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Prescott, John

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Storehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Strang, Gavin

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Probert, Arthur

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Swain, Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Taverne, Dick

  Mr. Joseph Harper and

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

  Mr. Donald Coleman.

  Division No. 213.]

  AYES

  [2.47 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Costain, A. P.

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Critchley, Julian

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Crouch, David

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Astor, John

  Curran, Charles

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hastings, Stephen

  Awdry, Daniel

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Havers, Michael

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

  Hawkins, Paul

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Dean, Paul

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Balniel, Lord

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Heseltine, Michael

  Batsford, Brian

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Hicks, Robert

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Dixon, Piers

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Bell, Ronald

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Hiley, Joseph

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Draysorn, G. B.

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Benyon, W.

  Dykes, Hugh

  Holland, Philip

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Biffen, John

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Hornby, Richard

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Blakey, Peter

  Emery, Peter

  Howe, Hon. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Eyre, Reginald

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Body, Richard

  Farn, John

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk,N.)

  Boscawen, Robert

  Fell, Anthony

  Hunt, John

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Bowden, Andrew

  Fidler, Michael

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  James, David

  Braine, Bernard

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Bray, Ronald

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Jessel, Toby

  Brewis, John

  Fortescue, Tim

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Fowler, Norman

  Jopling, Michael

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Fox, Marcus

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Bryan, Paul

  Gardner, Edward

  Kilfedder, James

  Buck, Antony

  Gibson-Watt, David

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Burden, F. A.

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Kirk, Peter

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Kitson, Timothy

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Goodhart, Philip

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Channon, Paul

  Goodhew, Victor

  Knox, David

  Chapman, Sydney

  Gorst, John

  Lambton, Antony

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Gower, Raymond

  Lane, David

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Churchill, W. S.

  Gray, Hamish

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Green, Alan

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Clegg, Walter

  Grylls, Michael

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Cockeram, Eric

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Longden, Gilbert

  Cooke, Robert

  Gurden, Harold

  Loveridge, John

  Coombs, Derek

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  MacArthur, Ian

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Cordle, John

  McLaren, Martin

  810

  811

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Sutcliffe, John

  McMaster, Staniey

  Percival, Ian

  Tapsell, Peter

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Pounder, Rafton

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Maddan, Martin

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Madel, David

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Tebbit, Norman

  Maginnis, John E.

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Temple, John M.

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Marten, Neil

  Raison, Timothy

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Mather, Carol

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Maude, Angus

  Redmond, Robert

  Tilney, John

  Mawby, Ray

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Trew, Peter

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Mills, Stratton (Beifast, N.)

  Ridsdale, Julian

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdenshire,W.)

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Waddington, David

  Moate, Roger

  Rost, Peter

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Molyneaux, James

  Royle, Anthony

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Money, Ernie

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Wall, Patrick

  Montgomery, Fergus

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Walters, Dennis

  More, Jasper

  Scott, Nicholas

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Warren, Kenneth

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Sharples, Richard

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Mudd, David

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Murton, Oscar

  Simeon, Charles

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Wilkinson, John

  Neave, Airey

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Normanton, Tom

  Soref, Harold

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Nott, John

  Speed, Keith

  Worsley, Marcus

  Onslow, Cranley

  Spence, John

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Stainton, Keith

  Younger, Hn. George

  Osborn, John

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Mr. Bernard Weatherill and

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Stokes, John

  Mr. Hugh Rossi.

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  NOES

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Ginsburg, David

  Allen, Scholefield

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Golding, John

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Grant, John D. (ISlington, E.)

  Ashton, Joe

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Deakins, Eric

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Barnes, Michael

  Delargy, H. J.

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Barnett, Joel

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Hamling, William

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Dempsey, James

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Bishop, E. S.

  Doig, Peter

  Hardy, Peter

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Dormand, J. D.

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Booth, Albert

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Hattersley, Roy

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Brown, Bob ((N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W,)

  Dunn, James A.

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Hilton, W. S.

  Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Eadie, Alex

  Horam, John

  Buchan, Norman

  Edelman, Maurice

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Ellis, Tom

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Cant, R. B.

  English, Michael

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Evans, Fred

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Fernyhough, E.

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Hunter, Adam

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Janner, Greville

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Foley, Maurice

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Cohen, Stanley

  Foot, Michael

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Concannon, J. D.

  Ford, Ben

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Forrester, John

  John, Brynmor

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Freeson, Reginald

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Cronin, John

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Garnett, W. E.

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  812

  813

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Molloy, William

  Sillars, James

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Silverman, Julius

  Judd, Frank

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Small, William

  Kerr, Russell

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Moyle, Roland

  Spearing, Nigel

  Lambie, David

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Lamond, James

  Murray, Ronald King

  Stallard, A. W.

  Latham, Arthur

  Ogden, Eric

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Lawson, George

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Leadbitter, Ted

  O'Malley, Brian

  Strang, Gavin

  Leonard, Dick

  Oram, Bert

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Orme, Stanley

  Swain, Thomas

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Taverne, Dick

  Lipton, Marcus

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardif,W.)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Palmer, Arthur

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Loughlin, Charles

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Tinn, James

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Tomney, Frank

  McBride, Neil

  Pendry, Tom

  Torney, Tom

  McCartney, Hugh

  Pentland, Norman

  Urwin, T. W.

  McElhone, Frank

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Varley, Eric G.

  McGuire, Michael

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Prescott, John

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Mackie, John

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Wallace, George

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Watkins, David

  Maclennan, Robert

  Probert, Arthur

  Weitzman, David

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Wellbeleved, James

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfie1d,E.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Whitlock, William

  Marks, Kenneth

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Marquand, David

  Roderick, CaerwynE.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Meacher, Michael

  Roper, John

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Rose, Paul B.

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Mendelson, John

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Millan, Bruce

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Mr. Joseph Harper and

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Mr. Donald Coleman.

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Division No. 214.]

  AYES

  [2.58 a.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Fidler, Michael

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Channon, Paul

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Chapman, Sydney

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Astor, John

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Fowler, Norman

  Awdry, Daniel

  Churchill, W. S.

  Fox, Marcus

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Clark William (Surrey, E.)

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Balniel, Lord

  Cockeram, Eric

  Gardner, Edward

  Batsford, Brian

  Cooke, Robert

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Coombs, Derek

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Bell, Ronald

  Cooper, A. E.

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Cordle, John

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Benyon, W.

  Costain, A. P.

  Goodhart, Philip

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Critchley, Julian

  Goodhew, Victor

  Biffen, John

  Crouch, David

  Gorst, John

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Curran, Charles

  Gower, Raymond

  Blaker, Peter

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Gray, Hamish

  Boscawen, Robert

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

  Green, Alan

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Dean, Paul

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Bowden, Andrew

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Grylls, Michael

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Braine, Bernard

  Dixon, Piers

  Gurden, Harold

  Bray, Ronald

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Brewis, John

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Dykes, Hugh

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Bryan, Paul

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Buck, Antony

  Emery, Peter

  Hastings, Stephen

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Eyre, Reginald

  Havers, Michael

  Burden, F. A.

  Farr, John

  Hawkins, Paul

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Fell, Anthony

  Hayhoe, Barney

  814

  815

  Heseltine, Michael

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Hicks, Robert

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Simeone, Charles

  Hiley, Joseph

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C.(Aberd'nshire,W.)

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Holland, Philip

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Soref, Harold

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Moate, Roger

  Speed, Keith

  Hornby, Richard

  Molyneaux, James

  Spence, John

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Money, Ern e

  Stainton, Keith

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  More, Jasper

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Be per)

  Howell, Raph (Norfolk, N.)

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Hunt, John

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Stokes, John

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Mudd, David

  Sutcliffe, John

  James, David

  Murton, Oscar

  Tapsell, Peter

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Jessel, Toby

  Neave, Airey

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Jopling, Michael

  Normanton, Tom

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Nott, John

  Tebbit, Norman

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Onslow, Cranley

  Temple, John M.

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Kilfedder, James

  Osborn, John

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Tilney, John

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Kirk, Peter

  Paisley, Mr. Ian

  Trew, Peter

  Kitson, Timothy

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Percival, Ian

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Knox, David

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Lambton, Antony

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Lane, David

  Pounder, Rafton

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Waddington, David

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Wall, Patrick

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Raison, Timothy

  Walters, Dennis

  Longden, Gilbert

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Loveridge, John

  Redmond, Robert

  Warren, Kenneth

  MacArthur, Ian

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Weatherill, Bernard

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  McLaren, Martin

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  McMaster, Stanley

  Ridsdale, Julian

  wiggin, Jerry

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Wilkinson, John

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Maddan, Martin

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Madel, David

  Rost, Peter

  Worsley, Marcus

  Maginnis, John E.

  Royle, Anthony

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Marples Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Younger, Hon. George

  Marten, Neil

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Mather, Carol

  Scott, Nicholas

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Maude, Angus

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Mr. Tim Fortescue and

  Mawby, Ray

  Sharples, Richard

  Mr. Walters.

  NOES

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Dempsey, James

  Allen, Scholefield

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Doig, Peter

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Dormand, J. D.

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire,E.)

  Ashton, Joe

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Atkinson, Norman

  Cocks, Michael (Brihtol, S.)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Cohen, Stanley

  Dunn, James A.

  Barnes, Michael

  Concannon, J. D.

  Dunnett, Jack

  Barnett, Joel

  Conlan, Bernard

  Eadie, Alex

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Edelman, Maurice

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Bishop, E. S.

  Cronin, John

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Ellis, Tom

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  English, Michael

  Booth, Albert

  Dalyell, Tam

  Evans, Fred

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Davidson, Arthur

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Buchan, Norman

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Foley, Maurice

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Deakins, Eric

  Foot, Michael

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Ford, Ben

  Campbell, I.(Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Forrester, John

  Cant, R. B.

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  816

  817

  Freeson, Reginald

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Lipton, Marcus

  Probert, Arthur

  Garrett, W. E.

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Loughlin, Charles

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Ginsburg, David

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Golding, John

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  McBride, Neil

  Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  McElhone, Frank

  Roper, John

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  McGuire, Michael

  Rose, Paul B.

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Hamling, William

  Mackie, John

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Hardy, Peter

  Maclennan, Robert

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Sillars, James

  Hattersley, Roy

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Silverman, Julius

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Marks, Kenneth

  Small, William

  Hilton, W. S.

  Marquand, David

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Horam, John

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Spearing, Nigel

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Meacher, Michael

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Stallard, A. W.

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Mendelson, John

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Millan, Bruce

  Strang, Gavin

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

  Hunter, Adam

  Molloy, William

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Janner, Greville

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Tinn, James

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Tomney, Frank

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Torney, Tom

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Moyle, Roland

  Urwin, T. W.

  John, Brynmor

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Varley, Eric G.

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Ogden, Eric

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Wallace, George

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Watkins, David

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Oram, Bert

  Weitzman, David

  Jones,Rt.Hn.SirElwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Orme, Stanley

  Wellbeloved, James

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Whitehead, Philip

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  White, James (Glasgow, Pallok)

  Judd, Frank

  Palmer, Arthur

  Whitlock, William

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange.)

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Kerr, Russell

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Lamb e, David

  Pendry, Tom

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Lamond, James

  Pentland, Norman

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Latham, Arthur

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Lawson, George

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Prescott, John

  Mr. Joseph Harper and

  Leonard, Dick

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Mr. Donald Coleman.

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)