§
Lords Amendment: No. 52, in page 20, line 17, leave out from "employees" to second "at" and insert:
who had been continuously employed for a period of not less than thirteen weeks, whether they are or had been all employed at the same place or are or had been employed".
§ The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Dudley Smith)I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
1349 This is a small but logical Amendment. It provides that in calculating the aggregate of employees in an undertaking for the purposes of exclusion from the unfair dismissal provisions only employees who have been continuously employed for 13 weeks or more would be taken into account. This would exclude most casual or temporary seasonal workers from the aggregate. The Government consider that only regular workers should be taken into account.
Subsection 1(a) excludes from the right to appeal against unfair dismissal employees in undertakings where there are fewer than four employees at the time of a dismissal. However, representations were made to the Government that under the provision in the Bill regular full-time employees in certain sectors which employed large numbers of casual or seasonal type labour would be excluded for the greater part of the year but would acquire a right of appeal during a comparatively short season where casual workers were employed.
We had an odd situation where protection against unfair dismissal depended in some industries on the vagaries in the weather. If the weather was good and casuals were employed there would be protection for full-time employees, but if the weather was bad there would be no protection afforded for the regular employees. In the Government's view, this is most unsatisfactory and therefore we consider that only regular employees should be taken into account for the purposes of this exclusion and that it would be wrong for casual and temporary seasonal workers to be taken into account.
§ The Amendment, therefore, excludes from the calculation employees who had not been employed continuously for 13 weeks or more at the time of the dismissal in question. The period of 13 weeks corresponds with the new qualifying period in Clause 17 for an employee's entitlement to a week's notice. We consider that this arrangement is fair and reasonable. It was pressed upon us in another place; after due consideration the Amendment was made and that is why it is before us this afternoon.
§ Mr. Harold WalkerI shall detain the House only briefly. First, I express my gratitude to the Under-Secretary for not 1350 invoking, for a change, the contents of my right hon. Friend's Bill. Of course, he could not do so this time, because whilst my right hon. Friend's Bill made provision for exclusions, which in this Bill can be varied by order of the Secretary of State, one purpose of this exclusion of establishments employing fewer than four people is to enable the Government to assess the initial case load. It was not intended in my right hon. Friend's Bill to introduce any such qualification as is now proposed.
I recognise the argument that the hon Gentleman has presented. Of course, there are people on the fringe who present problems, and I do not think this point would have gone unrecognised if it had not been drawn to our attention. However, it works both ways. The hon. Gentleman might argue that the purpose of the Amendment is to ensure that the excluded category is kept to the size originally intended and that it is for this reason that action is being taken to prevent any such alteration arising from seasonal factors as those to which he has referred.
I agree that it is an odd sort of justice which hinges on the weather at the time of a man's dismissal. However, as I say, it works both ways. The Government say that it is anomalous that a person who, under the provisions of the Bill, may be denied access to the tribunal for 50 weeks of the year should have the door opened for a fortnight or three weeks, whatever the period is, for, say, hop-picking or the pea harvest, and I can see the sense of that argument.
The hon. Gentleman refers in general terms to cases where the work load fluctuates, causing corresponding swings in the labour force, but where there is a small nucleus of permanent workers, and he says that that situation should be taken into account. But he ignores the other situation where the work load may remain constant but where the labour force may vary considerably. There may be a steady nucleus but there may be a transient labour force operating, as for example in the building and construction industry, the distributive trades and the transport industry. One thinks, for example, of a small haulier employing six lorry drivers, three of whom are constant and steadfast in their allegiance to the employer, the other three being replaced.
1351 The steadfast and loyal drivers in that situation, under the provisions of this Bill, can lose out. If the hon. Gentleman wants to help those who would not in the normal course of events be given access to the tribunal he should give access to those who might be unfairly excluded. He should either tackle both of the problems or leave the thing alone. At the moment he is only tackling half the problem.
§ I said that there may well be fringe problems. It seems to us illogical and inequitable to select part of the problem and deal with it in isolation. That we cannot accept.
§ Question put, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
§ The House divided: Ayes 264, Noes, 223.
1355| Division No. 454.] | AYES | [4.15 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Kilfedder, James |
| Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) | Emery, Peter | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) |
| Astor, John | Eyre, Reginald | King, Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Farr, John | Kinsey, J. R. |
| Awdry, Daniel | Fell, Anthony | Kirk, Peter |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | Kitson, Timothy |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Fidler, Michael | Knox, David |
| Balniel, Lord | Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) | Lambton, Antony |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Fookes, Miss Janet | Lane, David |
| Batsford, Brian | Foster, Sir John | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Fowler, Norman | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry |
| Bennett, Sir Frederick (Torquay) | Fox, Marcus | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone) | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) |
| Biffen, John | Fry, Peter | Longden, Gilbert |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Loveridgc, John |
| Blaker, Peter | Gardner, Edward | Luce, R. N. |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Gibson-Watt, David | McAdden, Sir Stephen |
| Body, Richard | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | MacArthur, Ian |
| Boscawen, Robert | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | McCrindie, R. A. |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Glyn, Dr. Alan | McLaren, Martin |
| Bowden, Andrew | Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Goodhew, Victor | Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) |
| Braine, Bernard | Gorst, John | McNair-Wilson, Michael |
| Bray, Ronald | Gower, Raymond | McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) |
| Brewis, John | Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) | Maddan, Martin |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Gray, Hamish | Madel, David |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Green, Alan | Maginnis, John E. |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Grieve, Percy | Marten, Neil |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Mather, Carol |
| Bryan, Paul | Grylls, Michael | Maude, Angus |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) | Gummer, Selwyn | Mawby, Ray |
| Buck, Antony | Gurden, Harold | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Burden, F. A. | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Mills, Peter (Torrington) |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) |
| Carlisle, Mark | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Moate, Roger |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Hannam, John (Exeter) | Molyneaux, James |
| Channon, Paul | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Money, Ernie |
| Chapman, Sydney | Haselhurst, Alan | Monks, Mrs. Connie |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Havers, Michael | Monro, Hector |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hayhoe, Barney | Montgomery, Fergus |
| Clark, William (Surrey, E.) | Hicks, Robert | More, Jasper |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Higgins, Terence L. | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. |
| Clegg, Walter | Hiley, Joseph | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Cockeram, Eric | Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) | Mudd, David |
| Cooke, Robert | Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Murton, Oscar |
| Coombs, Derek | Holt, Miss Mary | Neave, Airey |
| Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Hooson, Emlyn | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael |
| Cormack, Patrick | Hordern, Peter | Normanton, Tom |
| Costain, A. P. | Hornby, Richard | Nott, John |
| Critchley, Julian | Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia | Onslow, Cranley |
| Crouch, David | Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) | |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Howell, David (Guildford) | Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Mal.-Gen. James | Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. |
| Dean, Paul | Hunt, John | Osborn, John |
| Dixon, piers | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Iremonger, T. L. | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | James, David | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Drayson, G. B. | Jessel, Toby | Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Peel, John |
| Dykes, Hugh | Joplin, Michael | Percival, Ian |
| Eden, Sir John | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Pink R. Bonner |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine | Pounder, Rafton |
| Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Skeet, T. H. H. | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) | Vaughan, Dr. Gerard |
| Proudfoot, Wilfred | Soref, Harold | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | Speed, Keith | Waddington, David |
| Quennell, Miss J. M. | Spence, John | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Raison, Timothy | Sproat, Iain | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter | Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper) | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Redmond, Robert | Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.) | Walters, Dennis |
| Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | Stokes, John | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | Sutcliffe, John | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Ridsdale, Julian | Tapsell, Peter | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) | Wilkinson, John |
| Rossi, Hugh (Honnsey) | Tebbit, Norman | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Rost, Peter | Temple, John M. | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Russell, Sir Ronald | Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| St. John-Stevas, Norman | Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth) | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Scott, Nicholas | Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.) | Worsley, Marcus |
| Scott-Hopkins, James | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Sharples, Richard | Tilney, John | |
| Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | Trafford, Dr. Anthony | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Shelton, William (Clapham) | Trew, Peter | Mr. Paul Hawkins and |
| Simeons, Charles | Tugendhat, Christopher | Mr. Tim Fortescue. |
| Sinclair, Sir George | Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin | |
| NOES | ||
| Albu, Austen | Duffy, A. E. P. | Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) |
| Alaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Eadie, Alex | Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) |
| Allen, Scholefield | Edelman, Maurice | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.) |
| Ashley, Jack | Ellis, Tom | Kaufman, Gerald |
| Ashton, Joe | English, Michael | Kelley, Richard |
| Atkinson, Norman | Evans, Fred | Lambie, David |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Faulds, Andrew | Latham, Arthur |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. | Lawson, George |
| Barnett, Joel (Heywood & Royton) | Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood) | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Beaney, Alan | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Foley, Maurice | Leonard, Dick |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Foot, Michael | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Ford, Ben | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Forrester, John | Lipton, Marcus |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Loughlin, Charles |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Freeson, Reginald | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) |
| Booth, Albert | Galpern, Sir Myer | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Garrett, W. E. | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) | Gilbert, Dr. John | McBride, Neil |
| Bradley, Tom | Ginsburg, David | McCartney, Hugh |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Golding, John | McGuire, Michael |
| Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Mackenzie, Gregor |
| Buchan, Norman | Gourlay, Harry | Maclennan, Robert |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mallalieu, J. P. W, (Huddersfield, E.) |
| Cant, R. B. | Hamling, William | Marks, Kenneth |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill) | Marquand, David |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Hardy, Peter | Marsden, F. |
| Clark, David (Colne Valley) | Harper, Joseph | Marshall, Dr. Edmund |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S) | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Meacher, Michael |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Hattersley, Roy | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | Mendelson, John |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Heffer, Eric S. | Millan, Bruce |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) | Horam, John | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Dalyell, Tam | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Milne, Edward (Blyth) |
| Darling, Rt. Hn. George | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen) |
| Davidson, Arthur | Huckfield, Leslie | Molloy, William |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Hunter, Adam | Moyle, Roland |
| Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove) | Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Janner, Greville | Murray, Ronald King |
| Delargy, H. J. | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Ogden, Eric |
| Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund | Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St.P'cras, S.) | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Dempsey, James | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | O'Malley, Brian |
| Doig, Peter | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Oram, Bert |
| Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | John, Brynmor | Orme, Stanley |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Driberg, Tom | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton) |
| Paget, R. T. | Rose, Paul B. | Torney, Tom |
| Palmer, Arthur | Sandelson, Neville | Urwin, T. W. |
| Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne) | Varley, Eric G. |
| Parker, John (Dagenham) | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) | Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) | Wallace, George |
| Pendry, Tom | Silverman, Julius | Watkins, David |
| Pentland, Norman | Skinner, Dennis | Weitzman, David |
| Perry, Ernest G. | Small, William | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg. | Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Prescott, John | Spearing, Nigel | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) | Spriggs, Leslie | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Probert, Arthur | Stallard, A. W. | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Reed, D. (Sedgefield) | Stoddart, David (Swindon) | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) | Strang, Gavin | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| Rhodes, Geoffrey | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Richard, Ivor | Taverne, Dick | Woof, Robert |
| Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.) | |
| Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Robertson, John (Paisley) | Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.) | Mr. Alan Fitch and |
| Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees) | Tinn, James | Mr. Donald Coleman. |
| Roper, John | Tomney, Frank |