HC Deb 02 August 1971 vol 822 cc1151-60

Lords Amendment: No. 41, in page 14, line 24, at the end insert new Clause "B": B.—(1) For the purposes of section 16(5)(a) of this Act a worker, notwithstanding that he has not expressly refused to become a member of a trade union with which an approved closed shop agreement was made, shall be treated as having so refused if he does not duly apply for membership of that trade union before the end of the relevant period or if, having applied for such membership, he withdraws that application. (2) For the purposes of section 16(5) of this Act a worker shall be treated as having been excluded from being a member of a trade union if (but only if)—

  1. (a) his application for membership of the trade union has been rejected, or he has been expelled from membership of the trade union, and
  2. (b) the conditions specified in the next following subsection are fulfilled.
(3) The conditions referred to in subsection (2)(b) of this section are that—
  1. (a) under the rules of the trade union the worker has a right of appeal against his rejection or expulsion, and
  2. (b) his appeal has been heard and dismissed or has been withdrawn or the time for appealing has expired without his having exercised that right.
(4) Subject to the next following subsection, in this section "the relevant period" in the case of an approved closed shop agreement—
  1. (a) in relation to a person who, on the date on which the agreement takes effect, is a worker to whom the agreement applies, means the period of three months from that date, and
  2. (b) in relation to any other person, means the period of one month from the date on which he begins to be employed as a worker to whom the agreement applies.
(5) The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument provide that, in so far as any approved closed shop agreement relates to workers engaged, or seeking to be engaged, in work of a description specified in the order, subsection (4) of this section shall have effect as if, for the references to three months and one month, there were substituted references to such shorter periods as are specified in the order.

Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question proposed [29th July] on consideration of Lords Amendments, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

Question again proposed.

6.40 p.m.

Mr. Charles Loughlin (Gloucestershire, West)

The House will recall that we were discussing Lords Amendment No. 41, which has two cardinal features. One was the period which an employee, in the case of an approved closed shop, would have before he was compelled to join the union. The man who had been an employee at the time that the approved closed shop was agreed to would have three months grace and the new employee would have one month. The Solicitor-General will recall that I was deploying the argument that there were certain trades and industries where this would be difficult of application. I was referring to the fishing industry to illustrate the point.

The new Clause also allows the Secretary of State, where he deems it advisable, to reduce the period in the two cases to which I have referred.

I was trying to demonstrate that, concerning the fishing industry—I shall deal with another industry late—the Secretary of State, recognising that the periods of grace were far too long, would have to come to the House with orders which, even so, might have to be varied from time to time. A deep sea vessel could, for example, be out for three weeks. I do not want to go over the argument I deployed on Thursday. No doubt the Solicitor-General listened to it. He would be a bit of a masochist if he also read it. However, I think that he will recall the point that I was making.

If the Secretary of State deemed it advisable to come to the House to seek approval to reduce the period of grace concerning the deep sea section of the industry—that is, if we can discriminate, because we might have a situation where a particular firm to which the approved closed shop may apply operates both deep sea and middle water vessels—we still have the problem of the middle-water vessels. We also have the problem of the variation in the period which a vessel may be at sea, because of the climatic conditions. The elements themselves may cause a variation in the period that a vessel may be at sea. We may have a similar situation with middle water vessels which spend periods of about a week at sea. Therefore, in practice, what has been described as a concession does not apply to the fishing industry.

My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) is associated with the building industry. He knows a little more about that industry than I do, but I was surprised that he did not introduce into his speech the farcical nature of describing this as a concession to the building industry. Anyone who knows the building industry realises that, even with the major firms, there is a high degree of turnover of labour.

I do not wish to detain the House long. I think that the two industries to which I have referred clearly demonstrate that this so-called concession will not apply in the way that the Solicitor-General seems to think. It is not a concession at all. It is a concession on paper, but it will not be a concession in application.

6.45 p.m.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Geoffrey Howe)

The concept of shortening the period from three months for a worker already employed and from one month for an incoming worker is in line with the concept already approved by the House in the context of the agency shop. The House will recall that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, when dealing with this point, said that the Secretary of State would give close consideration, in the context of any particular application, to the kind of point which the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) has put forward.

Originally, the corresponding provision dealing with the agency shop was stated to apply only to the construction industry. The special selection of that industry was in itself a recognition of the problems mentioned by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), to which the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West has now returned. I vouchsafe the knowledge that, by his standards, I am a masochist because I have read as well as heard what he said last Thursday.

The points raised by the hon. Gentleman on other industries, including the fishing industry and the shipping industry generally, were made by his hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) when we considered the agency shop. It is for that reason that, concerning any industry, the powers are made available to the Secretary of State to shorten the period of grace to the extent which would be judged necessary in the light of considerations urged upon him.

Mr. Loughlin

My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), to whom I referred on Thursday, was dealing specifically with the shipping industry. I am dealing with the fishing industry, which is a section of the shipping industry, where there are particular technical problems in applying a shorter period. Will the hon. and learned Gentleman address himself specifically to the shipping industry in this context?

The Solicitor-General

The hon. Gentleman says that there are particular technical problems in the fishing industry. I am sure that his hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East would acknowledge the particularity of that industry as part of the shipping industry. Certainly many of the problems are common to all industries. Plainly, they would have to be considered by the Secretary of State in the light of submissions made to him concerning an order under subsection (5). The Clause enables the Secretary of State to make an order curtailing either period of grace relating to work of a description specified in the order. So it would be open to him to consider each description of work and each industry or each section of industry according to its needs as established to him by the applicants. On that basis I commend the new Clause and invite the House to agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

Mr. Stanley Orme (Salford, West)

I have been asked on behalf of the Opposition to say that we find the explanation of the Solicitor-General, at the beginning and certainly now at the end, completely unconvincing. There is no doubt that the new Clause is a concession not to trade unions but to his right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) and other hon. Members on his side of the House who felt that the agency shop would bite too hard and too quickly upon non-unionists.

The Solicitor-General has dealt with the question of people applying for jobs but he would, I think, agree that subsection (2)(a) and (b) of the new Clause deals also with the expulsion of a member from a trade union. The normal machinery of appeal by a member takes about 12 months to operate in most unions; that is the length of time taken by the democratic appeal machinery. The situation could arise that a non-unionist was in a shop throughout the whole of that time.

The three months' provision would mean that a person could not be refused employment and that having started it if he were to give an indication that he would join a union, a period of three months would elapse. There could be a situation within a shop, in which an agency shop was supposed both to be covering trade unionists and excluding the free rider, that people who were not trade unionists were working for a considerable time. That was the point made to the House by the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames, who feared that people might be forced to join a union. The Clause gives those people the maximum opportunity to try to evade their responsibilities.

The Solicitor-General would have the right to come to the House with an order but as my hon. Friends have said, in certain industries in which there is an itinerant labour force or a labour force of the kind employed in shipping, fishing or the construction industry, before the order could operate people could come in and work for a short time, leave and never

come within the scope or the so-called agency shop.

This is just another indication that the Government, having introduced the agency shop, have been under pressure from their back-benchers and, therefore, have tried to ease the situation. As we have said on many occasions, it will not be difficult for workers, who will get guidance from all kinds of sources, to constitute a continual destructive irritant in this situation. That will be the type of worker who will lead to industrial action under the Bill, because the workers will say, "In these circumstances, the employer has the right to dismiss this person, but as soon as we ask for his dismissal we are told that there are all sorts of loopholes which allow a person to make false application to join a union." Who will decide the validity of the applications? Who will keep the works manager continuously chasing the worker, as though he does not have enough problems already?

Workers within the industry will say, "We are not having this. We have always had 100 per cent. trade unionism or this section of our factory trade union-organised, and it will remain so." By these little exclusions and delaying tactics, the Solicitor-General will bring upon himself and the Government all sorts of industrial problems and difficulties which I do not think he foresees. For these reasons, we ask for a vote on the new Clause.

Question put:

The House divided: Ayes 277, Noes 239.

Division No. 450.] AYES [6.56 p.m.
Adley, Robert Blaker, Peter Butler, Adam (Bosworth)
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Carlisle, Mark
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Body, Richard Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert
Amery, Bt. Hn. Julian Boscawen, Robert Channon, Paul
Archer, Jeffrey (Louth) Bossom, Sir Clive Chapman, Sydney
Atkins, Humphrey Bowden, Andrew Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Awdry, Daniel Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Chichester-Clark, R.
Baker, Kenneth (St Marylebone) Braine, Bernard Churchill, W. S.
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Bray, Ronald Clark, William (Surrey, E.)
Balniel, Lord Brewis, John Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Brinton, Sir Tatton Cockeram, Eric
Batsford, Brian Brocklebank- Fowler, Christopher Cooke, Robert
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Coombs, Derek
Bell, Ronald Bruce-Gardyne, J. Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Bryan, Paul Cormack, Patrick
Benyon, W, Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M) Costain, A. P.
Berry, Hn. Anthony Buck, Antony Critchley, Julian
Biffen, John Bullus, Sir Eric Crouch, David
Biggs-Davison, John Burden, F. A. Curran, Charles
Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford) James, David Raison, Timothy
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Jessel, Toby Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen.James Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) Redmond, Robert
Dean, Paul Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Deedes, Bt. Hn. W. F. Jopling, Michael Rees, Peter (Dover)
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Kaberry, Sir Donald Rees-Davies, W. R.
Drayson, G. B. Kershaw, Anthony Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
du Cann, Bt. Hn. Edward Kilfedder, James Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Dykes, Hugh Kimball, Marcus Ridsdale, Julian
Eden, Sir John King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Kinsey, J. R. Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Kirk, Peter Rost, Peter
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) Kitson, Timothy Russell, Sir Ronald
Emery, Peter Knox, David St. John-Stevas, Norman
Eyre, Reginald Lambton, Antony Scott, Nicholas
Farr, John Lane, David Scott-Hopkins, James
Fell, Anthony Langford-Holt, Sir John Sharples, Richard
Fenner, Mrs. Peggy Legg-Bourke, Sir Harry Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Fidler, Michael Le Marchant, Spencer Shelton, William (Clapham)
Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Simeons, Charles
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton) Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) Sinclair, Sir George
Fookes, Miss Janet Longden, Gilbert Skeet, T. H. H.
Fortescue, Tim Loveridge, John Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mingtot
Foster, Sir John Luce, R. N. Soref, Harold
Fowler, Norman McAdden, Sir Stephen Speed, Keith
Fox, Marcus MacArthur, Ian Spence, John
Fraser, Rt.Hn.Hugh (St'fford & Stone) McCrindle, R. A. Sproat, lain
Fry, Peter Maclean, Sir Fitzroy Stanbrook, Ivor
Galbraith, Hn. T. G. McMaster, Stanley Steel, David
Gardner, Edward Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)
Gibson-Watt, David McNair-Wilson, Michael Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Maddan, Martin Stokes, John
Glyn, Dr. Alan Madel, David Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Maginnis, John E. Sutcliffe, John
Goodhart, Philip Marten, Neil Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Goodhew, Victor Mather, Carol Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)
Gorst, John Maude. Angus Taylor, Prank (Moss Side)
Gower, Raymond Mawby, Ray Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)
Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.) Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Tebbit, Norman
Gray, Hamish Meyer, Sir Anthony Temple, John M.
Green, Alan Mills, Peter (Torrington) Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret
Grieve, Percy Mitchell, Lt.-Col.C.(Aberdeenshire, W.) Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Grimond, Bt. Hn. J. Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy
Grylls, Michael Moate, Roger Tilney, John
Gummer, Selwyn Molyneaux, James Trafford, Dr. Anthony
Gurden, Harold Money, Ernle Trew, Peter
Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) Monks, Mrs. Connie Tugendhat, Christopher
Hall, John (Wycombe) Monro, Hector Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Montgomery, Fergus van Straubenzee, W. R.
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) More, Jasper Vaughan, Dr. Gerard
Hannam, John (Exeter) Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm. Vickers, Dame Joan
Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Waddington, David
Mudd, David
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) Murton, Oscar Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Haselhurst, Alan Neave, Airey Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Hastings, Stephen Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Havers, Michael Normanton, Tom Wall, Patrick
Hay, John Nott, John Walters, Dennis
Hayhoe, Barney Onslow, Cranley Ward, Dame Irene
Hicks, Robert Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally Weatherill, Bernard
Higgins, Terence L. Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Wells, John (Maidstone)
Hiley, Joseph Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) White, Roger (Gravesend)
Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.) Page, Graham (Crosby) Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William
Hill, James (Southampton, Test) Paisley, Rev. Ian Wiggin, Jerry
Holt, Miss Mary Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.) Wilkinson, John
Hooson, Emlyn Peel, John Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Hordern, Peter Percival, Ian Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Hornby, Richard Pink, R. Bonner Woodnutt, Mark
Hornsby-Smith, Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia Pounder, Rafton Worsley, Marcus
Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate) Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.
Howell, David (Guildford) Price, David (Eastleigh)
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.) Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Hunt, John Proudfoot, Wilfred Mr. Walter Clegg and
Hutchison, Michael Clark Quennell, Miss J. M. Mr. Paul Hawkins.
Iremonger, T. L.
NOES
Albu, Austen Ashley, Jack Barnes, Michael
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Ashton, Joe Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)
Allen, Scholefield Atkinson, Norman Barnett, Joel
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis) Bagier, Cordon A. T. Beaney, Alan
Bern, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Moyle, Roland
Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Bidwell, Sydney Hamling, William Murray, Ronald King
Bishop, E. S. Harman, William (G'gow, Maryhill) Ogden, Eric
Blenkinsop, Arthur Hardy, Peter O'Halloran, Michael
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Harper, Joseph O'Malley, Brian
Booth, Albert Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Oram, Bert
Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith Orme, Stanley
Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland) Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Oswald, Thomas
Bradley, Tom Heffer, Eric S. Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Horam, John Padley, Walter
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Palmer, Arthur
Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury) Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Panned, Rt. Hn. Charles
Buchan, Norman Huckfield, Leslie Parker, John (Dagenham)
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Parry Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Hughes, Mark (Durham) Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) Pendry, Tom
Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) Hughes, Roy (Newport) Pentland, Norman
Cant, R. B. Hunter, Adam Perry, Ernest G.
Carmichael, Neil Irvine, Rt.Hn.SirArthur (Edge Hill) Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Janner, Greville Prescott, John
Clark, David (Colne Valley) Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) Jeger, Mrs.Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras, S.) Probert, Arthur
Coleman, Donald Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Rankin, John
Conlan, Bernard Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Reed, D. (Sedgefield)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda John, Brynmor Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Rhodes, Geoffrey
Crawshaw, Richard Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Cronin, John Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.) Roberts, Rt.Hn.Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Jones, Barry (Flint, E.) Robertson, John (Paisley)
Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.) Jones, Dan (Burnley) Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)
Dalyell, Tam Jones, Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn (W.Ham, S.) Roper, John
Darling, Rt. Hn. George Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen) Rose, Paul B.
Davidson, Arthur Jones, T. Alec (Rnondda, W.) Sandelson, Neville
Davies, Denzil (Llanelly) Kaufman, Gerald Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Kelley, Richard Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Kerr, Russell Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil) kinnock, Neil Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) Lambie, David Silverman, Julius
Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove) Latham, Arthur Skinner, Dennis
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Lawson, George Small, William
Delargy, H. J. Leadbitter, Ted Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)
Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick Spearing, Nigel
Dempsey, James Leonard, Dick Spriggs, Leslie
Doig, Peter Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) Stallard, A. W.
Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce Lipton, Marcus Stoddart, David (Swindon)
Driberg, Tom Loughlin, Charles Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John
Duffy, A, E. P. Lyon, Alexander W. (York) Strang, Gavin
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Dunnett, Jack Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) Taverne, Dick
Eadie, Alex Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Thomas, Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff, W.)
Edelman, Maurice McBride, Neil Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) McCartney, Hugh Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
Edwards, William (Merioneth) McGuire, Michael Tinn, James
Ellis, Tom Mackenzie, Gregor Tomney, Frank
English, Michael Mackie, John Tuck, Raphael
Evans, Fred Maclennan, Robert Urwin, T. W.
Faulds, Andrew McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) Varley, Eric G.
Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E. McNamara, J. Kevin Wainwright, Edwin
Fisher, Mrs.Doris (B' ham, Ladywood) Mallalieu, J. P. W. Huddersfield, E.) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Marks, Kenneth Wallace, George
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Marquand, David Watkins, David
Foley, Maurice Marsden, F. Weitzman, David
Foot, Michael Marshall, Dr. Edmund Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Ford, Ben Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy Whitehead, Phillip
Forrester, John Meacher, Michael Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Fraser, John (Norwood) Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Freeson, Reginald Mendelson, John Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Galpern, Sir Myer Millan, Bruce Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Garrett, W. E. Miller, Dr. M. S. Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Gilbert, Dr. John Milne, Edward (Blyth) Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Ginsburg, David Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen) Woof, Robert
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. Molloy, William
Gourlay, Harry Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Grant, George (Morpeth) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Mr. Ernest Armstrong and
Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Mr. John Golding.
Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
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