§
Amendment proposed: No. 24, in page 3, line 16, at end insert:
(3A) Without prejudice to the operation of section 37 of the Interpretation Act 1889 (which relates to the operation of statutory powers between the passing and commencement of an Act), at any time after the
§ passing of this Act, any scheme required by virtue of section 7 of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962 (schemes for educational provision) for the purposes of section 3 of the said Act as set out in section 1 of this Act, may be prepared and submitted to the Secretary of State for his approval, and the Secretary of State may approve any scheme, so submitted, in accordance with the provisions of section 70 of the said Act (approval and carrying out of schemes), but so that any scheme approved by virtue of this subsection before the date of the coming into force of this Act shall not have effect before that date; and in this subsection 'scheme' shall include a revised scheme or a modification of an existing scheme.—[Mr. Edward Taylor.]
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 104, Noes 66.
1137| Division No. 345.] | AYES | [12.56 a.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley) | Raison, Timothy |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Haselhurst, Alan | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Hawkins, Paul | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Benyon, W. | Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) |
| Biffen, John | Holt, Miss Mary | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Hornby, Richard | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Boscawen, Robert | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Bowden, Andrew | Iremonger, T. L. | Shelton, William (Clapham) |
| Bray, Ronald | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | James, David | Soref, Harold |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Kellett, Mrs. Elaine | Speed, Keith |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Spence, John |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray & Nairn) | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Sproat, Iain |
| Channon, Paul | Kinsey, J. R. | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Chapman, Sydney | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.) |
| Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Knox, David | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Clegg, Walter | Loveridge, John | Stokes, John |
| Cockeram, Eric | Luce, R. N. | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Cooke, Robert | MacArthur, Ian | Sutcliffe, John |
| Cormack, Patrick | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Crouch, David | Maddan, Martin | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James | Maginnis, John E. | Tebbit, Norman |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Mather, Carol | Tilney, John |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Elliot, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Waddington, David |
| Eyre, Reginald | Molyneaux, James | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | Money, Ernie | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) | Monks, Mrs. Connie | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Gardner, Edward | Montgomery, Fergus | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Gibson-Watt, David | More, Jasper | Worsley, Marcus |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Murton, Oscar | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Goodhew, Victor | Neave, Airey | Younger, Hn. George |
| Gower, Raymond | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | |
| Cray, Hamish | Page Graham (Crosby) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Green, Alan | Percival, Ian | Mr. Tim Fortescue and |
| Gummer, Selwyn | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis | Mr. Hector Monro. |
| NOES | ||
| Armstrong, Ernest | Galpern, Sir Myer | Lawson, George |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | Leonard, Dick |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Lestor, Miss Joan |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Lomas, Kenneth |
| Buchan, Norman | Hamling, William | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, West) | Harper, Joseph | McElhone, Frank |
| Carmichael, Neil | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mackenzie, Gregor |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Huckfield, Leslie | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hunter, Adam | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | John, Brynmor | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | Kaufman, Gerald | Marks, Kenneth |
| Dormand, J. D. | Kerr, Russell | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | Kinnock, Neil | Millan, Bruce |
| Freeson, Reginald | Lambie, David | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Murray, Ronald King | Sillars, James | Tinn, James |
| Oswald, Thomas | Silverman, Julius | Urwin, T. W. |
| Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) | Skinner, Dermis | Wellbeloved, James |
| Pentland, Norman | Small, William | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Perry, Ernest G. | Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) | |
| Prescott, John | Spearing, Nigel | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Price, William (Rugby) | Stallard, A. W. | Mr. Donald Coleman and |
| Rodcrick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n & R'dnor) | Strang, Gavin | Mr. John Golding. |
| Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) |
§
Amendment made: No. 25, in page 3, line 17, after 'Act', insert:
(except subsections (1), (2) and (3A) of this section)".—[Mr. Gordon Campbell.]
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
§ 1.5 p.m.
§ Mr. Buchan rose—
§ Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, North)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for hon. Members below the Bar to shout when we are taking a collection of voices?
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is out of order.
§ Mr. BuchanI realise that some confusion has arisen here but I saw the Secretary of State getting up and I therefore waited. I gather that he got up to nod, but I thought he would speak. I am not sure what stage we have reached, but I have a word or two to say before we proceed to the vote. Will you guide me, Mr. Speaker, in what should be done. There was general confusion.
§ Mr. SpeakerI agree that there was some confusion. The hon. Member for Renfrew, West (Mr. Buchan).
§ Mr. BuchanI do not wish to speak at length. Complaints were made in Committee about the length of time taken on the Bill. We were told that we need not take time because it was a small Bill. Not only is it a small Bill, but it is a small-minded, squalid Bill.
We have seen today two of the most squalid little items to be introduced by any Government—the Bill we discussed earlier and this Bill. The Government have shown contempt for the people in Scotland by rushing forward with a Bill designed to aid their political allies in only two cities, completely regardless of the effect on education in Scotland. The Bill runs counter to every piece of advice given by parents', teachers' and academic organisations and by every educational speaker, thinker and writer in Scotland. 1138 I know of no one in the teaching bodies, in the universities, in the academic world or writing in any educational journal in Scotland who has supported the Bill.
The Government have introduced the Bill in haste, in squalor, in contempt of expert advice and in contempt of the parents of Scotland, who have not spoken yet, but they will. It gives me great pleasure to invite the House to reject the Bill.
§ 1.9 a.m.
§ Mr. LawsonWe spoke in Committee over a considerable time, not because we were wasting time but because we considered that the Bill was injurious to Scotland and, therefore, important. At 25 minutes past ten o'clock we started on the Report stage, and we have been under pressure all the time to get the Bill finished. We were considered to be wasting the time of the House in dealing with this miserable Bill which is the first important piece of legislation affecting Scotland brought forward by this crowd opposite. It was brought forward at 25 minutes past ten o'clock tonight.
§ Mr. MacArthurNonsense.
§ Mr. LawsonThe hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur) said scarcely a word in Committee. I want to protest at the insulting way in which we have been treated. I see the Government Chief Whip looking at me. One can hear him say something occasionally. This Bill has no other objective but to give to some sections in Edinburgh and Glasgow—
§ Mr. MacArthurFreedom.
§ Mr. Lawson—the possibility of continuing with the miserable little privileges they had had up to now. Let us, if we have the means, turn it down. The Secretary of State assured us on Second Reading that the Bill would in no circumstances injure the ordinary pupils in any school in Scotland, but the whole 1139 purpose of the Bill is to maintain privilege and divide our children among themselves. We are ashamed of it. My hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved) told us how his ancestors left Scotland. If this is how we behave in Scotland, I do not wonder
§ Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
1140§ at it. I hope we reject this miserable Bill.
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 103, Noes 65.
1139| Division No. 346.] | AYES | [1.12 a.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Hall, Miss John (Keighley) | Raison, Timothy |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Haselhurst, Alan | Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.) |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Hawkins, Paul | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Benyon, W. | Hill, James (Southampton, Test) | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.) |
| Biffen, John | Holt, Miss Mary | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Boscawen, Robert | Iremonger, T. L. | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Bowden, Andrew | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Shelton, William (Clapham) |
| Bray, Ronald | James, David | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Kellett, Mrs. Elaine | Soref, Harold |
| Bruee-Gardyne, J. | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Speed, Keith |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M) | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Spence, John |
| Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray & Nairn) | Kinsey, J. R. | Sproat, Iain |
| Channon, Paul | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Chapman, Sydney | Knox, David | Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.) |
| Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Loveridge, John | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Cockeram, Eric | Luce, R. N. | Stokes, John |
| Cooke, Robert | MacArthur, Ian | Stuttaford, Dr. Tom |
| Cormack, Patrick | McNair-Wilson, Michael | Sutcliffe, John |
| Crouch, David | Maddan, Martin | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart) |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj. Gen. James | Maginnis, John E. | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Mather, Carol | Tebbit, Norman |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Tilney, John |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Trafford, Dr. Anthony |
| Eyre, Reginald | Molyneaux, James | waldington, David |
| Fenner, Mrs. Peggy | Money, Ernie | Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester) |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead) | Monks, Mrs. Connie | White, Roger (Gravesend) |
| Fortescue, Tim | Monro, Hector | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Gardner, Edward | Montgomery, Fergus | Worsley, Marcus |
| Gibson-Watt, David | More, Jasper | Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R. |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Murton, Oscar | Younger, Hn. George |
| Goodhew, Victor | Neave, Airey | |
| Gower, Raymond | Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Gray, Hamish | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Mr. Bernard Weatherill and |
| Green, Alan | Percival, Ian | Mr. Walter Clegg. |
| Cummer, Selwyn | Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis |
| NOES | ||
| Armstrong, Ernest | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.) | Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Hunter, Adam | Pentland, Norman |
| Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | John, Brynmor | Perry, Ernest G. |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Kaufman, Gerald | Prescott, John |
| Buchan, Norman | Kerr, Russell | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Kinnock, Neil | Roderick, CaerwynE.(Br'c'n & R'dnor) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Lambie, David | Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock) |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.) | Lawson, George | Sillars, James |
| Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.) | Lestor, Miss Joan | Silverman, Julius |
| Dalyell, Tam | Lomas, Kenneth | Skinner, Dennis |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Small, William |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.) | McElhone, Frank | Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.) |
| Dormand, J. D. | Mackenzie, Gregor | Spearing, Nigel |
| Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.) | Mackintosh, John P. | Stallard, A. W. |
| Freeson, Reginald | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Strang, Gavin |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | McNamara, J. Kevin | Tinn, James |
| Grant, John D. (Islington, E.) | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Marks, Kenneth | Wellbeloved, James |
| Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Hamling, William | Millan, Bruce | |
| Harper, Joseph | Miller, Dr. M. S. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Murray, Ronald King | Mr. Donald Coleman and |
| Huckfield, Leslie | Oswald, Thomas | Mr. John Golding. |