§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the following provisions of the Bill, namely, Clauses 7, 8, 36, 38, 43 and 44 and Schedule 6, be committed to a Committee of the whole House; that the remainder of the Bill be committed to a Standing Committee; and that, when the provisions of the Bill considered respectively by the Committee of the whole House and by the Standing Committee have been reported to the House, the Bill be proceeded with as if the Bill had been reported as a whole to the House from the Standing Committee.—[Mr. Diamond.]
§ 10.15 p.m.
§ Mr. Peter Kirk (Saffron Walden)On a point of order. I raised with you this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, the question whether it will be in order to proceed with the Motion. In view of the fact that the Motion is incomprehensible to hon. Members unless they have copies of the Bill in front of them, I have inquired at the Vote Office whether copies of the Bill are available. There is one copy in the Library, but it is impossible to bring it into the House. We cannot possibly follow the intricacies of the Motion unless we have copies of the Bill in front of us. I therefore ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether it is possible to proceed with the Motion tonight?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I invited the hon. Gentleman to raise this point at this moment. The fact is that this is a procedural Motion. It cannot be amended. It can be voted on for or against. There can be only a brief speech in support of it and a brief speech against. It should have been possible by now for any hon. Member who wished to decide whether he would vote for or against to see from a copy of the Bill what Clauses were involved.
§ Mr. John Hay (Henley)On a point of order—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We have had a good run of points of order about the non-appearance of the Bill.
§ Mr. HayIf I understood what you have said, Mr. Speaker, it is that we are not in order in debating this Motion, except for a brief speech in support of the Motion and a brief speech against, if any hon. Member wishes to speak. I wish to ask a question relating to new 406 Clauses. Am I to take it from your Ruling that we are not allowed to speak to this Motion.
§ Mr. SpeakerI abide by Standing Order No. 40(3)
If such a Motion is opposed, Mr. Speaker after permitting, if he thinks fit"—and he does think fit—a brief explanatory statement from the Member who makes and from a Member who opposes the Motion shall, without permitting any further debate, put the question thereon.I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman cannot ask questions.
§ Sir Gerald Nabarro (Worcestershire, South)On a point of order—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Noise must not prevent an hon. Gentleman putting a point of order. Sir Gerald Nabarro.
§ Sir G. NabarroYou will recall, Mr. Speaker, that this is the first time a Motion has been allowed before this House for part of the Finance Bill only to be sent upstairs and the remainder to be taken on the Floor of the House. Last year the whole of the Finance Bill was sent upstairs to a Committee, not a part of it. This evening the procedural Motion involves certain Clauses being taken on the Floor of the House—
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman cannot, by anticipation, debate that procedural Motion. He must come to his point of order.
§ Sir G. NabarroI hope to be brief. I wish to put to you that there are certain Clauses, and in my own case only two Clauses, which I felt—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I am sorry but the hon. Gentleman cannot put that to the Chair.
§ Sir G. Nabarrorose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I have ruled on the hon. Gentleman's submission.
§ Sir G. Nabarrorose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Sir G. NabarroI have not put it yet.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman might wish that certain Clauses in the Motion were not in, or that certain Clauses which are not in the Motion were in. He cannot debate that either as a point of order or in any other way at this stage.
§ Sir G. NabarroI wanted to complete my point of order. I merely wished to ask you, Mr. Speaker, how it is possible in these circumstances for a back-bench Member of this House to move that certain Clauses which the Government wish taken upstairs should be taken downstairs. I am asking for your Ruling, for the protection of private Members, who are a minority. I do not wish to submit to the dictatorial methods of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I have already answered the hon. Member's point of order. He has no way of varying the procedural Motion. If he does not like it he can vote against it. Mr. Pardoe, to raise a point of order.
§ Mr. PardoeIt is not a point of order. I wish to make a short speech against the Motion. Am I in order?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member is a little too eager. I have not yet put the Question.
§ Mr. John Peyton (Yeovil)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask for guidance about the future? We are being asked to vote on a procedural Motion which names certain Clauses of a Bill which is not currently before us. This puts the House in a very difficult position indeed. I think that you, Mr. Speaker, are aware of a tendency today for the Executive to humiliate the House of Commons—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I do not want to hear noise from supporters of the Executive.
§ Mr. PeytonIn these circumstances, while acknowledging the undoubted difficulty of your position, we find ourselves unable to look anywhere for support and for protection, save to you, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I have already ruled, in answer to a similar point of order from the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro), on the point that the hon. Member has raised.
408 If he wants to change the procedure, he can do so only by changing Standing Order No. 40, and he cannot change it tonight.
§ Mr. Geoffrey Hirst (Shipley)Further to that point of order. I think that every hon. Member recognises your difficult position, Mr. Speaker. We all respect the fact that we, as back benchers, cannot change a procedural Motion under the Standing Orders of the House. We feel very strongly about this and we are asking for the protection of the Chair in this unusual situation. We cannot change a procedural Motion, but you, Mr. Speaker, have an authority, which is quite separate, to protect back benchers. We are asked to pass a procedural Motion on facts and figures and details, many of which are not complete, Schedules which touch only some of the Clauses, and Clauses which do not touch the Schedules. It is not right and it is not fair to the electorate.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. This is not a new procedure. The House may from time to time decide about a Bill that some of its Clauses should be taken upstairs and some on the Floor of the House. When such a Motion is made by the right hon. or hon. Member in charge of a Bill, one brief speech may be made in favour of it and one against, and the House must then decide.
§ 10.24 p.m.
§ The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond)It is hoped that it will suit the convenience of the House to draw this reasonable compromise or dividing line between having the whole of the Committee stage downstairs, in which case a great deal of the time of this Chamber would be taken up with a mass of detailed and technical points, which many right hon. and hon. Members think would be excessive, and the alternative of sending it all upstairs, in which case many right hon. and hon. Members would be denied the opportunity of making contributions on matters which they regard as important. It is, therefore, proposed that on the Clauses mentioned the Bill should be remitted to a Committee of this Chamber. These are Clauses 7 and 8, in respect of income tax and surtax, Clauses 36 and 38, dealing with betterment levy, Clauses 43 and 44 dealing with selective employment tax and selective employment payments, and Schedule 409 6 dealing with the extension of purchase tax.
I would hope that the Motion would find support all over the House. Those who vote against it will be voting for sending the whole Bill upstairs.
§ Mr. Pardoerose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) must restrain his eagerness.
§ 10.26 p.m.
§ Mr. John SmithI oppose the Motion. The Chief Secretary spoke of the convenience of the House, but there are more important things than the convenience of the House. This is the most important Bill of the year, and it affects all the constituents of every hon. Member. On Finance Bills of all Bills, backbenchers often wish to speak, and even vote, differently from their Front Bench spokesmen.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Elementary truisms ought not to cause such a shock.
§ Mr. SmithI shall become much more subtle and sophisticated in a moment, Mr. Speaker.
Until the year before last about 175 Members took part in the Committee stage of the Finance Bill, and in the nature of things they were mainly from the Opposition, of whatever party. Suppose about 125 of the Members who took part have been Opposition Members; then if one removes from that number some Opposition Whips, some Opposition Front Bench spokesmen and some Opposition crypto-Front Bench spokesmen, one is reduced to a number of perhaps 120 bona fide card-carrying Conservatives who have habitually taken part in the Committee stage of Finance Bills.
But this year we are to have, I understand, a Committee of 30, of which perhaps 12 will be Opposition Members. They will consist of a Whip, three Front Bench spokesmen and four crypto-Front Bench spokesmen in the shape of the officers of our party finance committee, and we shall be left with not 120 Opposition back benchers but four.
410 What are the reasons advanced for this?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The speech must be a brief one.
§ Mr. SmithThe first reason was that it would save time. But throughout the Report and the evidence submitted to the Select Committee on Procedure it was stated that splitting the Bill would not save time, and I leave that argument.
The next argument was that specialist Clauses can best be dealt with by specialists upstairs. No division of the Bill could leave simply specialist stuff to go upstairs. A cursory examination of the Bill by those who are lucky enough, like yourself, Mr. Speaker, to have obtained one, will show that many of the Clauses going upstairs are of wide interest, and that some of them are party political matters.
But even if it is only specialist stuff that goes upstairs, as the Chief Secretary to the Treasury submitted in his memorandum to the Select Committee on Procedure in January, 1967:
Even the most technical 'administrative' provisions can make a substantial difference to the tax liability of individuals.Moreover, some of the specialist stuff none of us fully understands, whether it is taken upstairs or downstairs. No matter where it is discussed, we shall have the spectacle of two Front Bench spokesmen speaking from briefs while the people who understand it are separated at opposite ends of the Chamber biting their nails with anxiety.
§ Mr. A. Woodburn (Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire)On a point of order—
§ Mr. Marcus Lipton (Brixton)Leave him alone.
§ Mr. WoodburnSo far as I can understand—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I thought we all believed in the preciousness of Parliament. Noise does not help.
§ Mr. WoodburnI gather that the hon. Member is not speaking against sending the Bill upstairs, but is asking that the whole of the Bill should be sent upstairs. The Chief Secretary said that to oppose the Motion meant wishing the whole Bill to go upstairs. May I seek 411 your guidance, Mr. Speaker? Is the effect of voting against the Motion to send the whole Bill upstairs?
§ Mr. SpeakerThat is not a point of order. It is not the duty of Mr. Speaker to guide hon. Members as to what a Motion means. It is their job to find out. Mr. Smith, briefly. I must remind the hon. Member that I have already once asked him to be brief. He must come to a conclusion soon.
§ Mr. SmithI will be brief, but most of my speech so far has been made by the House as a form of Soviet and not by me singly.
I was saying that if specialists are to be found, surely they are more likely to be found if they are drawn from a wide circle rather than if they are drawn from a narrow circle.
Now this is my final point. The real reason for splitting the Bill in this way is to suit us, to suit our convenience. The then Leader of the House said on 6th December 1967:
backbenchers also constantly complain that they want more time for the kind of debates which interest them …".What about our constituents? Taxation interests them.The right hon. Gentleman also said—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We cannot have any more quotations. The hon. Member must come to the end of his speech.
§ Mr. SmithThis is my final point. The right hon. Gentleman also said that
the good of the other back benchers—the vast majority, after all—who do not attend, can also be achieved by relieving them of the tedium of the Committee stage on the Floor of the House."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th December, 1967; Vol. 755, c. 1450.]
§ Some back benchers may like to be relieved of the tedium, but the taxpayers, our constituents, also find it tedious to be relieved of their money. I think they like to feel that we take the matter seriously.
§ Splitting the Bill gives us the worst of all worlds. It turns the parts taken down here into generalised debates. Upstairs it cuts up the natural divisions of taxation, which is into families of taxes it picks the eyes out of each part of the Bill. There is no Re-committal stage, and therefore the Report stage is simply a ritual—a series of Press statements made by back benchers. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. When Mr. Speaker has asked an hon. Member to be brief, it is not in order for hon. Members to encourage an hon. Member to disobey Mr. Speaker. Mr. John Smith.
§ Sir Knox Cunningham (Antrim, South)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would you tell the House what authority you have to silence an hon. Member in respect of the length of his speech when he is on his feet?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Under Standing Order No. 40(3), which says:
… Mr. Speaker after permitting, if he thinks fit, a brief explanatory statement from the Member who makes and from a Member who opposes the motion shall, without permitting any further debate, put the question thereon.
§ Mr. SmithSplitting the Bill does not save time. It does not improve consideration of the Bill. It simply muzzles discussion, in order, at best, to save from tedium, and to pander to, those irresponsible Members of the House who think that all gold is fairy gold and that spending money is a full-time job.
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 261, Noes 17.
415| Division No. 196.] | AYES | [10.40 p.m. |
| Albu, Austen | Beaney, Alan | Bray, Dr. Jeremy |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Bence, Cyril | Brooks, Edwin |
| Alldritt, Walter | Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. |
| Anderson, Donald | Bidwell, Sydney | Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) |
| Archer, Peter | Binns, John | Brown, R. w. (Shoreditch & F'bury) |
| Ashley, Jack | Bishop, E. S. | Buchan, Norman |
| Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) | Blackburn, F. | Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Blenkinsop, Arthur | Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Carmichael, Neil |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Booth, Albert | Carter-Jones, Lewis |
| Barnes, Michael | Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Coe, Denis |
| Barnett, Joel | Boyden, James | Coleman, Donald |
| Baxter, William | Bradley, Tom | Conlan, Bernard |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.) | Park, Trevor |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Davies, Edynfed Hudson (Conway) | Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Pentland, Norman |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) | Judd, Frank | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Kenyon, Clifford | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. |
| Delargy, Hugh | Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Dell, Edmund | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Lawson, George | Probert, Arthur |
| Dickens, James | Leadbitter, Ted | Rees, Merlyn |
| Dobson, Ray | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Richard, Ivor |
| Doig, Peter | Lee, John (Reading) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Driberg, Tom | Lestor, Miss Joan | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy |
| Dunn, James A. | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Dunnett, Jack | Lever, L. M. (Ardwlck) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as) |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Eadie, Alex | Lipton, Marcus | Roebuck, Roy |
| Edelman, Maurice | Lomas, Kenneth | Rose, Paul |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Loughlin, Charles | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Ellis, John | Luard, Evan | Rowlands, E. |
| Ennals, David | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) |
| Ensor, David | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Sheldon, Robert |
| Faulds, Andrew | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) | |
| Fernyhough, E. | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Finch, Harold | McBride, Neil | Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.) |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | McCann, John | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Eric (Islington, E.) | MacDermot, Niall | Silverman, Julius |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Macdonald, A. H. | Slater, Joseph |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McGuire, Michael | Small, William |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Ford, Ben | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael |
| Forrester, John | Mackie, John | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John |
| Fowler, Gerry | Mackintosh, John P. | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Fraser, John (Norwood) | Maclennan, Robert | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Freeson, Reginald | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain | Symonds, J. B. |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Taverne, Dick |
| Gardner, Tony | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George |
| Garrett, W. E. | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Thornton, Ernest |
| Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Tinn, James |
| Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Manuel, Archie | Urwin, T. W. |
| Gregory, Arnold | Mapp, Charles | Varley, Eric G. |
| Grey, Charles (Durham) | Marks, Kenneth | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Marquand, David | Walden, Brian (All Saints) |
| Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert | Wallace, George |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Mendelson, John | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mikardo, Ian | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Harper, Joseph | Millan, Bruce | Weitzman, David |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Wellbeloved, James |
| Haseldine, Norman | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Hattersley, Roy | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Whitaker, Ben |
| Hazell, Bert | Molloy, William | White, Mrs. Eirene |
| Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Whitlock, William |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Willkins, W. A. |
| Henig, Stanley | Morris, John (Aberavon) | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Moyle, Roland | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Higgins, Terence L. | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Hobden, Dennis | Murray, Albert | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Hooley, Frank | Neal, Harold | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Horner, John | Newens, Stan | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Oakes, Gordon | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Ogden, Eric | Winnick, David |
| Howie, W. | O'Malley, Brian | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Hoy, James | Oram, Albert E. | Woof, Robert |
| Huckfield, Leslie | Orbach, Maurice | Wyatt, Woodrow |
| Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Orme, Stanley | |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Oswald, Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) | Mr. Charles B. Morris and |
| Hunter, Adam | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) | Mr. Ioan L. Evans. |
| Hynd, John | Palmer, Arthur | |
| NOES | ||
| Bessell, Peter | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Hastings, Stephen | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. |
| Crowder, F. P. | Hirst, Geoffrey | Peyton, John |
| Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.) | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Smith, John (London & W'minster) | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES |
| Steel, David (Roxburgh) | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. | Mr. Eric Lubbock and |
| Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy | Mr. John Pardoe |
§
Ordered,
That the following provisions of the Bill, namely, Clauses 7, 8, 36, 38, 43 and 44 and Schedule 6, be committed to a Committee of the whole House; that the remainder of the Bill be committed to a Standing Committee; and that, when the provisions of the Bill considered respectively by the Committee of the whole House and by the Standing Committee have been reported to the House, the Bill be proceeded with as if the Bill had been reported as a whole to the House from the Standing Committee.
§ Committee Tomorrow.