§ (1) Where a local planning authority, by virtue of, or any alteration to, a structure plan or a local plan, or after the commencement 1522 of this Act by virtue of any alterations or additions to a development plan in force in the area, propose the redevelopment of land in agricultural use, or in use as open space, they shall serve a notice containing their proposals on the owners of the land and on the tenant of any agricultural holding any part of which is comprised in the land to which the proposals relate, where such are known.
§ (2) In this section the expression 'owner' and 'agricultural holding' have the meanings assigned to them by section 36(8) of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1959.—[Mr. Wylie.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. WylieI beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
This Clause seeks to correct what appears to have been an omission in the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1959. Section 36 provided that if someone proposes development, makes application for planning permission under the 1947 Act, he has to intimate the application to the owner or owners of the lands to which the application relates, unless he himself is the owner.
Section 36(1)(b) says that he must provide
a certicate stating that the applicant has given the requisite notice of the application to all the persons (other than the applicant)who were owners of land. There is provision in subsection (3) of the Section dealing with the interest of tenants of agricultural holdings. They likewise have to be given notice of the proposals. Accordingly, a very serious omission from the 1947 Act was covered in so far as the specific provision was made that in an application for planning permission the owners of land and any tenant farmers on the land must be notified of the application. It could not be considered by the planning authority until that authority was satisfied that the intimation or notification had been made.A problem arises where there is a change in the zoning of an area of land in the development plan. That is not an application for planning permission for which under the provisions to which I have referred notification has to be made. This is where the local planning authority decides in its own development plan to make an alteration or addition and to rezone, perhaps for residential purposes, an area of land at present in agricultural use or used as an open space. It can and 1523 does happen, since owners and tenant farmers do not always keep themselves fully abreast of proposals by the local planning authority, that a change of zoning is made and they know nothing about it.
It is easy to say that they ought to know, that they ought to look at the newspapers to see what is going on, or to examine the town map or the county map, but it happens that through oversight on the part of the owner, or particularly the tenant of an agricultural holding, these changes are made and the interested parties are not aware of them. If planning permission in principle is given without opposition and without knowledge on the part of the interested parties, the protection given by Section 36 of the 1959 Act is rather hollow. If a developer makes an application for planning permission for the development of an area in accordance with the existing use by reference to planning proposals it is inconceivable that the application will be refused. It could not be refused subject to satisfactory layout.
This matter has been drawn to my attention and it seems that there is an omission which should be rectified. I fully appreciate that it would be quite impracticable in the ordinary course of urban development to draw the attention of all interested parties to the proposals contained in the town plan. That is why the Clause is confined to land in agricultural use or open space—virgin land. The object of the Clause, which I daresay is defective in drafting, is to provide that where virgin land is to be the subject of rezoning in the town or county plan the owners of the land and any tenant farmers on it shall be notified of the proposals. There is not a multiplicity of ownership in these circumstances and it seems perfectly practicable for a local authority to discharge that obligation, which, in many cases, is analogous to the obligation already laid upon them by Section 36 of the 1959 Act. We hope that the Government will look sympathetically upon this Clause even though there may be defects in its drafting.
§ 6.30 p.m.
§ Mr. Ian MacArthur (Perth and East Perthshire)I was not a member of the Committee which considered the Bill. It 1524 may be that this matter was touched on in some way there, although from what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie) has said it seems that this deficiency in the Bill has been only recently brought to his notice.
If I understand the present statutory position aright there is no requirement on a local planning authority to bring to the notice of owners or occupiers of agricultural land, recreational land or open space the impact on that land of any re-zoning proposal by the local planning authority. I was not aware of that deficiency. If it exists, it should be remedied.
My hon. and learned Friend rightly said that owners or tenants of farming land so affected would have an opportunity to make their views known, but would be able to do so only if they lighted upon the public announcement of the local authority's intention. The 1959 Act imposes the requirement to advertise such a proposal. A farmer or tenant who sees such an advertisement would know what is to happen.
If I am right up to this point, the Minister will agree that if the advertisement appeared in local newspapers it might well not be seen by the farmer or tenant and he might innocently overlook the effect of the proposal on the land owned or farmed by him or the land in which he has an interest, if only as a user for recreational purposes. He might have no indication of the effect on him, on his life, and possibly on his livelihood of the proposal.
I am sometimes concerned about the way in which we rely on citizens to find things out for themselves. Where possible, the intentions of the Government or of a local authority should be brought to the notice of those who will be affected by the intentions if they are carried out, so that those concerned have the opportunity to pursue the course of protest or argument which is provided for by Statute.
In view of the life which farmers lead, they could innocently overlook the public advertisement of the planning authority's intentions. I live in farming country. I know, as does my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith), the busy life which a farmer leads. We know how much 1525 busier he has become in recent years, thanks to the Government's mismanagement in agriculture.
§ Mr. MacArthurIf the right hon. Gentleman disagrees, let him visit a few farms and see how busy farmers are. They do not have time to read the small print in the newspaper which will carry the advertisement. They are too busy calculating their selective employment tax and filling up the necessary forms.
It would be unreasonable to rely on the present procedure to bring the attention of farmers and tenants to the planning authority's proposal. If my understanding of the position is correct, it must be reasonable that the Bill should impose a requirement on the planning authority actively to call the attention of the farmer or tenant to its proposal. That protecion for the citizen should be written into the Bill.
§ Dr. Dickson MabonI shall not waste time by quarrelling with some of the comments of the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur), which were extraneous to this argument. I accept the argument which he and the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie) advanced that farmers and tenants can miss many intimations made under present legislation.
It is important that publicity should be better, not only for those concerned in the new Clause, but for the generality of the population—in Committee the hon. and learned Gentleman coined the phrase "the planned as distinct from the planners"—but I do not think that the Clause is the right way of achieving his object. Under Clause 13(1), the Secretary of State is armed with considerable power to make regulations. These need not be regulations to be generally applied. They can be regulations which are specific to specific interests.
I imagine that the report of the Skeffington Committee will highlight, not only the problems we are discussing now, but other problems affecting other legitimate interests such as farming which should be dealt with in special ways. I cannot at this stage discuss the recommendations of the Skeffington Committee, 1526 because they will not be out until the end of next month.
We regard Clause 13(1) as an important power. We understand the position enunciated in the new Clause, but it would be wrong, because it is always a reflection on others, to tie the Secretary of State to one publicity obligation to one interest in one way. It is better to leave it open so that the Secretary of State can by administrative means and by the exercise of his powers using regulations made under Clause 13(1) get the right answer.
I am sure that the answer will be through the report of the Skeffington Committee and that hon. Members will wish the regulations arising from it to be effective. The hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire will serve his constituents better if he recognises that the report of the Skeffington Committee is a good one which will be adopted by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and by the Secretary of State.
For these reasons I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman not to press the Clause, but to leave it, not as an argument of principle between us, but as an argument simply as to the means by which we achieve the same thing.
§ Mr. WylieI am disappointed with that reply. There is all the difference in the world between the situation that arises in this Clause and that which arose on the previous Clause. To demonstrate our reasonableness we readily accepted in that case that it was necessary and preferable that the matter should be dealt with by regulations. Here we are dealing with a specific problem which is capable of solution.
As I said earlier, it was overlooked when the 1959 legislation was prepared. After all, there are specific proposals in the Section of the 1959 Act to which I referred. Those proposals specifically relate to the situation which arises when an application for planning permission is made. That is substantive law; it is on the Statute Book. It will not be altered by regulations.
What we have been asking the hon. Gentleman to do is to finish the process which was started in the 1959 Act and cover the gap which arises, I think through inadvertence, where a re-zoning of a development plan takes place. There 1527 are at this moment no statutory provisions to deal with that.
If the Minister of State takes the view, as I understood him to, that there is ground for complaint, that there is a defect in the existing legislation, but that it is desirable to deal with it by regulation, I cannot agree. In the context of those proposals it is better here and now to remedy a shortcoming in the 1959 Act along the lines indicated in the Clause. It is not appropriate to fill this gap by reference to regulations.
There was repeated reference in Committee to the fact that regulations would be made. The Minister will be very busy over the next few months or years making regulations under the Bill when enacted. Good luck to him. I accept that in many ways the proper way to deal with planning is by regulations. The pattern was set in the 1947 Act. The regulations
§ made under that legislation became more significant than the Statute itself. But this is not an appropriate case. This is not a problem which can appropriately be dealt with by regulations.
§ Despite the recognition which the Minister appears to have given to the need for statutory provisions, the time to deal with this problem is now. I have discussed the matter with some of my colleagues at the Scottish Bar who are familiar with the whole problem of planning in Scotland, and if it were not for the unanimity of view among them I would not be disposed to press the new Clause. But, in the circumstances, I feel disposed to do so.
§ Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 123, Noes 176.
1529| Division No. 246.] | AYES | [6.40 p.m. |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Grant-Ferris, R. | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Gresham Cooke, R. | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Astor, John | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Pardoe, John |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Awdry, Daniel | Gurden, Harold | Percival, Ian |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Pike, Miss Mervyn |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.) | Pounder, Rafton |
| Bell, Ronald | Hawkins, Paul | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Heald, Rt. Hn. sir Lionel | Pym, Francis |
| Biffen, John | Hill, J. E. B. | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Biggs, Davison, John | Holland, Philip | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Blaker, Peter | Hooson, Emlyn | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Hordern, Peter | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Brewis, John | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Scott, Nicholas |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Johnson smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Smith, John (London & Westminster) |
| Bryan, Paul | Jopling, Michael | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N&M) | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Campbell, Cordon (Moray & Nairn) | Kershaw, Anthony | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Chataway, Christopher | Kimball, Marcus | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Cooper-Key, Sir Neil | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Cordle, John | Lane, David | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Costain, A. P. | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Crouch, David | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Lubbock, Eric | Waddington, David |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Dance, James | MacArthur, Ian | Walters, Dennis |
| Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.) | Mackenzie,Alasdair(Ross&Crom'ty) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Maude, Angus | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Dean, Paul | Mawby, Ray | Wiggin, A. W. |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Eden, Sir John | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Elliott,R. W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Monro, Hector | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Montgomery, Fergus | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Eyre, Reginald | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Farr, John | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Wylie, N. R. |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Younger, Hn. George |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Glover, Sir Douglas | Nott, John | Mr. Jasper More and |
| Gower, Raymond | Osborn, John (Hallam) | Mr. Timothy Kitson. |
| Grant, Anthony | ||
| NOES | ||
| Albu, Austen | Gardner, Tony | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Garrett, W. E. | Mendelson, John |
| Anderson, Donald | Ginsburg, David | Millian, Bruce |
| Archer, Peter | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) | Gregory, Arnold | Morgan, Elysian (Cardiganshire) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Grey, Charles (Durham) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Neal, Harold |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Ogden, Eric |
| Barnes, Michael | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Orbach, Maurice |
| Barnett, Joel | Hamling, William | Orme, Stanley |
| Bence, Cyril | Harper, Joseph | Oswald, Thomas |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Heseldine, Norman | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Blackburn, F. | Hazell, Bert | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Heffer, Eric S. | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Booth, Albert | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Park, Trevor |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Hooley, Frank | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Horner, John | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Buchan, Norman | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Pentland, Norman |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Howie, W. | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) |
| Cant, R. B. | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeer, N.) | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Chapman, Donald | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. |
| Coe, Denis | Hunter, Adam | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Coleman, Donald | Hynd, John | Probert, Arthur |
| Concannon, J. D. | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Rankin, John |
| Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy |
| Dalyell, Tam | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Sheldon, Robert |
| Delargy, Hugh | Judd, Frank | Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E. |
| Dewar, Donald | Kelley, Richard | Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.) |
| Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Dickens, James | Lawson, George | Small, William |
| Dobson Ray | Leadbitter, Ted | Snow, Julian |
| Doig, Peter | Lestor, Miss Joan | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Driberg, Tom | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | ||
| Eadie, Alex | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Taverne, Dick |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Loughlin, Charles | Tinn, James |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Ellis, John | Mahon, Dr. J. Dickson | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| English, Michael | McBride, Neil | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Ennals, David | MacDermot, Niall | Wallace, George |
| Ensor, David | Macdonald, A. H. | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | McGuire, Michael | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen) | McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Whitaker, Ben |
| Fernyhough, E. | Mackintosh, John P. | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Maclennan, Robert | Williams. W. T. (Warrington) |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | MacPherson, Malcolm | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Foley, Maurice | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Woof, Robert |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | |
| Forrester, John | Manuel, Archie | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Fraser, John (Norwood) | Mapp, Charles | Mr. John McCann and |
| Freeson, Reginald | Marks, Kenneth | Mr. Ernest Armstrong. |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |