§ 3.35 pm.
§ Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop (Tiverton)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to render Statutory Instruments subject to amendment by the House of Commons, upon passage of a substantive motion before third reading of a Bill that it should be subject to the provisions of the Statuotry Instrument Amendment Act 1969, and to lay down the procedure to be adopted pursuant thereto; and to redefine the period wherein certain Statutory Instruments may be annulled in pursuance of resolutions of either House of Parliament.Each year—[Interruption.]—the House passes a large number of—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member must be heard.
§ Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop rose—
§ Mr. Alexander W. Lyon (York)On a point of order. Is the rule that one does not interrupt an hon. Member when introducing a Ten-Minute Rule Bill one of the Standing Orders rules, or a convention such as the one which suggests that only one hon. Member should have charge of a Ten-Minute Rule Bill?
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is not a Standing Order. It is the practice of the House, and has been for a long time.
§ Mr. Maxwell-HyslopI was saying—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."]—that each year the House passes—[Interruption.]—a considerable volume of legislation—[Interruption.]—and that this legislation—
§ Mr. George Brown (Belper)On a point of order. It is in the recollection of many of my hon. Friends that the Opposition Chief Whtip, when walking through the Chamber just now—looking unusually angry—said to somebody on this side of the House, "Very well, I will take it away now" meaning the Ten-Minute Rule Bill which the hon. Member 242 for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) is purporting to ask leave to introduce. Has the Opposition Chief Whip the right to take away something which presumably is in the hands of private Members?
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is beyond the wit of Mr. Speaker to comment on sotto voce comments by the Opposition Chief Whip, or anyone else when he does not hear them.
§ Mr. Julian Snow (Lichfield and Tam-worth)Mr. Speaker, if your description of what happened just now is a description of someone speaking sotto voce your idea and mine of a quiet voice do not coincide. I think that perhaps what happened was that the Opposition Chief Whip had lost command of his emotions for a moment.
§ Mr. SpeakerWhat the Opposition Chief Whip meant, if he said that he would take it away, only the Opposition Chief Whip and God know.
§ Mr. Maxwell-HyslopI was observing—[Interruption.]—this will take rather more than 10 minutes if the interruptions continue—that each year this House passes a considerable volume of legislation by Act of Parliament. That legislation is subject to amendment both in Committee and on Report. In 1967, the House passed the amount of legislation contained in the two volumes I have here, which was subject to amendment. There were 2,166 pages. But during the same period the House passed the amount of Statutory Instruments contained in another six books I have here, comprising 5,488 pages, of which not one word was subject to amendment by the House.
There is no record of the number of Amendments made to Bills during their passage through the House in 1967. But it will certainly have been many hundreds, if not many thousands. Those Amendments were made for a number of reasons—bad drafting, or second thoughts, or consequences which the originators of the Bill had not foreseen. Is it not probable that this huge quantity of Statutory Instruments which passes through the House without capacity for Amendment contains many things which need to be amended?
The major purpose of my proposed Bill is to give the House the opportunity 243 —no more than that—when passing a Bill which confers new powers of delegated legislation, to determine, if it wishes, that the exercise of those powers shall be subject to amendment by the House. If such a Motion is passed, it will be necessary for the Minister to defend the contents of the Order when he lays it, instead of telling critics of the Order, "You must take it or leave it. I need not debate the merits of individual aspects of the Order". This is what Ministers are very apt to say.
A secondary purpose of my proposed Bill would be to amend what many hon. Members will doubtless regard as an anomaly in the present Statutory Instrument procedure, whereby the 40 days during which a Prayer can be moved against an Order include days when the House cannot entertain a Prayer—for instance, the three or four days at the beginning of a new Parliament which are occupied solely in swearing in Members.
Those four days may be critical to an Order. In the case of the Exeter Order, as I well recollect, the consumption of those three days when Members were being sworn exhausted all but one of the remaining days in which a Prayer could be moved. So the second portion of my proposed Bill would make a tidying-up operation to remove an anomaly which I believe was not intended by the draftsmen of the original Statutory Instruments Act.
My proposed Bill would give the House a power, which it should have, to exercise a more effective control over delegated legislation, whatever party is in
§ power, and to remedy a situation which is rapidly worsening as each year passes.
Mr, SpeakerThe Question is that the hon. Member do have leave to bring in his Bill. As many as are of that opinion say "Aye".
§ Mr. SpeakerTo the contrary, "No".
§ Mr. SpeakerI think the Ayes have it.
§ Mr. SpeakerWho will prepare and bring in the Bill?
§ Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop rose—
§ Mr. C. PannellI beg your pardon, Sir. I think that the Noes have it. Twice we said "No". If necessary, if I had thought it otherwise, I would have risen personally to make a case against the hon. Member's proposal. I do not know whether I can do it now. In my view, we want a Division.
§ Mr. SpeakerI am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I thought that the Noes had ceased to call. I will put the Question again.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 133, Noes 196.
247| Division No. 29.] | AYES | [3.44 p.m. |
| Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian | Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) | Foster, Sir John |
| Astor, John | Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) | Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Cary, Sir Robert | Fry, Peter |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Clegg, Walter | Gibson-Watt, David |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Cordle, John | Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) |
| Balniel, Lord | Costain, A. P. | Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Goodhew, Victor |
| Bell, Ronald | Dalkeith, Earl of | Gower, Raymond |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Dance, James | Grant, Anthony |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm) | Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Gresham Cooke, R. |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Drayson, G. B. | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) |
| Biffen, John | Eden, Sir John | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Elliott,R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Hall, John (Wycombe) |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Emery, Peter | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Errington, Sir Eric | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen) | Hawkins, Paul |
| Brewis, John | Eyre, Reginald | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Farr, John | Hill, J. E. B. |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Fisher, Nigel | Hirst, Geoffrey |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Hooson, Emlyn |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N & M) | Fortescue, Tim | Hornby, Richard |
| Howell, David (Guildford) | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. |
| Hunt, John | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Neave, Airey | Tapsell, Peter |
| Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Onslow, Cranley | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Jopling, Michael | Orr, Capt. L P. S. | Temple, John M. |
| Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Osborn, John (Hallam) | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Tilney, John |
| Kitson, Timothy | Pardoe, John | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Lambton Viscount | Parker, John (Dagenham) | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Lane, David | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Langford-Holt, Sir John | Peyton, John | Walters, Dennis |
| Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth) |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Quennell, Miss J. M. | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Longden, Gilbert | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| McAdden, Sir Stephen | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain | Ridsdale, Julian | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest) | Royle, Anthony | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Marten, Neil | Russell, Sir Ronald | Worsley, Marcus |
| Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald | Scott-Hopkins, James | Wright, Esmond |
| Mawby, Ray | Sharpies, Richard | |
| Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Silvester, Frederick | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) | Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop and |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Speed, Keith | Mr. A. W Wiggin |
| More, Jasper | ||
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Gardner, Tony | Mackenzie, Alasdair(Ross&Crom'ty) |
| Albu, Austen | Garrett, W. E. | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Ginsburg, David | Mackie, John |
| Alldritt, Walter | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Allen, Scholefield | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Gregory, Arnold | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) |
| Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw) | Grey, Charles (Durham) | Manuel, Archie |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Mapp, Charles |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly) | Marks, Kenneth |
| Bagier, Cordon A. T. | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Marquand, David |
| Barnes, Michael | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Bence, Cyril | Hannan, William | Mayhew, Christopher |
| Binns, John | Harper, Joseph | Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Haseldine, Norman | Millan, Bruce |
| Booth, Albert | Heffer, Eric S. | Milne, Edward (Blyth) |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Henig, Stanley | Molloy, William |
| Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | Hooley, Frank | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Brown,Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Horner, John | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditoh & F'bury) | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Carmichael, Neil | Howie, W. | Murray, Albert |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Hoy, Rt. Hn. James | Newens, Stan |
| Concannon, J. D. | Huckfield, Leslie | Oakes, Gordon |
| Conlan, Bernard | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Ogden, Eric |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Hunter, Adam | Orbach, Maurice |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hynd, John | Orme, Stanley |
| Darling, Rt. Hn. George | Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) |
| Davidson Arthur (Accrington) | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E. | Paget, R. T. | |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, w.) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek) | Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Dewar, Donald | Kelley, Richard | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Dickens, James | Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Dobson, Ray | Latham, Arthur | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Doig, Peter | Lawson, George | Pentland, Norman |
| Driberg, Tom | Leadbitter, Ted | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) |
| Dunn, James A. | Ledger, Ron | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Dunnett, Jack | Lee, John (Reading) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg |
| Eadie, Alex | Lestor, Miss Joan | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Ellis, John | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| English, Michael | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Probert, Arthur |
| Ensor, David | Lomas, Kenneth | Rankin, John |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Luard, Evan | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Lubbock, Eric | Roberts, Rt. Hn. Gnronwy |
| Fernyhough, E. | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Finch, Harold | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Robinson, Rt.Hn.Kenneth(St.P'c'as) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McBride, Neil | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | McCann, John | Rowlands, E. |
| Ford, Ben | MacDermot, Niall | Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E. |
| Forrester, John | Macdonald, A. H. | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Fraser, John (Norwood) | McElhone, Frank | Short, Mrs. Renee(W'hamptDn,N.E.) |
| Freeson, Reginald | McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Silverman, Julius |
| Small, William | Urwin, T. w. | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Snow, Julian | Varley, Eric G. | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Spriggs, Leslie | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) | Walden, Brian (All Saints) | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael | Wallace, George | Winnick, David |
| Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. | Watkins, David (Consett) | Woof, Robert |
| Thomas, Rt. Hn. George | Weitzman, David | Wyatt, Woodrow |
| Thomson, Rt. Hn, George | Wellbeloved, James | |
| Thornton, Ernest | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Tinn, James | White, Mrs. Eirene | Mr. Ioan L. Evans and |
| Tomney, Frank | Whitlock, William | Mr. Terence Boston. |