§ Question again proposed, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
§ Mr. BerryI just said how surprised I was. I have been looking at the OFFICIAL REPORT of the House of Lords to see why the Minister in another place declined to accept the Amendment. There seemed to be only two arguments advanced. First, he said that there might be a frivolous objector who refused to withdraw an objection. That seemed a lame excuse for not accepting the Amendment. Secondly, hon. Members will see that Lord Hughes said,
… he will be well aware from his own vast experience that in practice ' inquiries' means public inquiries although theoretically there could be private inquiries."—[OFFICIAL REPORT House of Lords, 7th October, 1968; Vol. 296, c 810.]That is the whole basis of our argument—that inquiries could be private inquiries. The Minister says that he believes in public inquiries. Why, then, does he not accept the word "public" in the Amendment, accept the Amendment and end the debate? It is an important Amendment to which he should agree.
§ Sir Harmar NichollsIn the light of this debate, the Minister should withdraw his objection to the Lords Amend- 516 ment. He said that there was no need for the Amendment because the point was covered by Clause 148. in the midst of his speech the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) intervened and the Minister said that all such inquiries would be public. The impression we were given was that Clause 148 would automatically result in any inquiry which the Minister decided to hold being a public inquiry.
At that point the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Bessell) said that if that were the case, then he would agree that we should dispense with the Lords Amendment. He said that that depended on whether or not the 1919 Act had resulted in all such inquiries being public. On further examination, my hon. Friends proved that the 1919 Act did not mean that such inquiries were automatically public.
The Minister based his objection to the Lords Amendment on the grounds that Clause 148 met all the points contained in the Amendment. This debate has shown clearly that that Clause does not do any such thing. After an intricate debate, their Lordships decided—and my hon. Friends, having since investigated the matter, have established beyond doubt that their Lordships were right— that it is necessary for this part of the Bill to make it clear that if the Minister decides that an inquiry should be held, it should be a public one.
There are good reasons why inquiries of this type should be public. The Amendment does not say that the Minister must order an inquiry. The matter is still left to his discretion and we are anxious that frivolous objections should not result in inquiries being held. However, having decided that an inquiry should, in the public interest, be held, it should be a public one. As the Minister's whole argument is based on the fact that Clause 148 meets the terms of the Lords Amendment in full, and since my hon. Friends have proved that this argument does not hold water, he should now withdraw his objection to their Lordships' recommendation.
§ Mr. SwinglerI have little to add to what I said earlier. I cannot understand the logic of the argument of the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls). And it is apparent that hon. Gentlemen opposite are prepared to give 517 the Minister total discretion in deciding whether or not to order inquiries. I mentioned Clause 148 because it relates to this and other appropriate provisions in the Bill.
Although willing to give the Minister total discretion in this matter, hon. Gentlemen opposite go on to say that if he decides to hold an inquiry, it must be public. This is an extraordinary demand. I appreciate, of course, that they are really arguing that the Minister should be obliged, in certain circumstances, to order inquiries and that that is the real point of their case. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Since the matters we are considering involve great public issues, it is obvious that any inquiries that are ordered would be public ones. However, there might be circumstances, arising from various parts of the Bill, when the Minister might order inquiries which he considers should not be public.
Why has this part of the Bill been singled out for an argument when, as I said, Clause 148 applies to many Parts of the Bill? I have referred to what has been the law since 1919. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have not changed it since then. They have not said that when the Minister orders inquiries they must be public ones. As this has been the law for a long time, we are merely continuing it by Clause 148. Why do hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to single out this one Part or' the Bill and say, "There must be a special provision for inquiries ordered in connection with this Part of the Bill"? We see no reason why that should be so. It could only have the effect of creating an anomalous situation in relation to other Parts of the Bill. If this were not the case their Lordships would have picked on various other parts of the Bill and would have repeated this rigmarole. Clause 148 provides adequately for the exercise of the Minister's discretion to order inquiries, which on issues of this kind would obviously be public, as they traditionally have been. The provision covers other Parts of the Bill and the Amendment would, therefore, be superfluous.
§ Mr. Peter WalkerI have never before heard a Minister so convincingly destroy his own case. The Minister of State said that it was obvious that if an inquiry was ordered under this part of the Bill, it would be a public one. If that were so, why would their Lordships have recom- 518 mended an Amendment saying that all such inquiries should be public? Will the Minister go into the Lobby to vote down a Lords Amendment giving him discretion to hold a public inquiry under this part of the Bill? If so, every local authority and operator who is anxious to have a public inquiry will know exactly why the Government are taking this step, and they will be appropriately suspicious.
Under the Bill as worded, taking Clause 148 into account, there is power for the Minister to have an inquiry in public or in private. This part of the Bill is of fundamental importance to local authorities and operators. It is the one part of the Bill for which their Lordships decided inquiries should be public. The Minister of State argued a few minutes ago that if there were an inquiry under the Clause it should be a public inquiry, yet in a minute or two he will vote to reject that provision. He is in a most devastating position. All that the Amendment would do would be to give the Minister the discretion.
There is an importance in this provision in that if, for example, in the Manchester area a large number of major local authorities objected strongly and clamoured for a public inquiry and the Minister decided to refuse that clamour although such a provision was in the Measure, the Minister concerned would quite rightly incur very real hostility in that area. There is, therefore, an importance for this House at least to put in the protection that the Minister has to argue with the public and the objectors against not having a public inquiry when it is clearly stated in the Clause that he has the power to order one. That is why their Lordships, in my view absolutely rightly, made this Amendment.
What objection can the Minister have to accepting the Amendment? If he says that any inquiry is to be public in any case, why not accept it? He has only to say that he will and the debate ends, and the whole thing goes through. What reason has he for objecting to the Amendment? The power is to have either a public or a private inquiry. He states that under the Clause he will have a public inquiry, and if he refuses an Amendment which supports his own very words the House of Commons and the country will have every ground for being suspicious.
§ Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment:—
520§ The House divided: Ayes 258, Noes 208.
521| Division No. 294.] | AYES | [10.11 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Mackie, John |
| Albu, Austen | Ford, Ben | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Forrester, John | Maclennan, Robert |
| Alldritt, Walter | Fowler, Gerry | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Anderson, Donald | Fraser, John (Norwood) | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Archer, Peter | Freeson, Reginald | MacPherson, Malcolm |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Galpern, Sir Myer | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) |
| Ashley, Jack | Gardner, Tony | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Garrett, W. E. | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Ginsburg, David | Manuel, Archie |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Mapp, Charles | |
| Barnes, Michael | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Marks, Kenneth |
| Baxter, William | Gourlay, Harry | Marquand, David |
| Beaney, Alan | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Bence, Cyril | Gregory, Arnold | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Grey, Charles (Durham) | Mayhew, Christopher |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Mendelson, J. J. |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Millan, Bruce | |
| Bishop, E. S. | Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Lianelly) | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) |
| Blackburn, F. | Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. | Moonman, Eric |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Booth, Albert | Hamling, William | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Boston, Terence | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Morris, John (Aberavon) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Moyle, Roland |
| Boyden, James | Hattersley, Roy | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Hazell, Bert | Neal, Harold |
| Bradley, Tom | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | Newens, Stan |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Heffer, Eric S. | Oakes, Gordon |
| Brooks, Edwin | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Ogden, Eric |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Hilton, W. S. | O'Malley, Brian |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town) | Oram, Albert E. |
| Brown,Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) | Hooley, Frank | Orbach, Maurice |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Orme, Stanley |
| Buchan, Norman | Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Howie, W. | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Hoy, James Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Paget, R. T. |
| Cant, R. B. | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Hunter, Adam | Park, Trevor |
| Coe, Denis | Hynd, John | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Coleman, Donald | Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Concannon, J. D. | Janner, Sir Barnett | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Conlan, Bernard | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Peart, Rt. Hn, Fred |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Pentland, Norman |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) |
| Grossman, Rt. Hn. Richard | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) | Jones, T, Alec (Rhondda, West) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Judd, Frank | Probert, Arthur |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Kelley, Richard | Rankin, John |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Rees, Merlyn | |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Kenyon, Clifford | Reynolds, Rt. Hn. G. W. |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Dell, Edmund | Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Dempsey, James | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Robinson,Rt.Hn. Kenneth(St.P'c'as) |
| Dewar, Donald | Lawson, George | Robinson, W. O. J. (Wath'stow,E.) |
| Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Leadbitter, Ted | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) |
| Dickens, James | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Dobson, Ray | Lestor, Miss Joan | Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.) |
| Doig, Peter | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Shaw, Arnold (IIford, S.) |
| Dunn, James A. | Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) | Sheldon, Robert |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Lipton, Marcus | Short, Mrs. Renee (W'hampton.N.E.) |
| Eadie, Alex | Lomas, Kenneth | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Loughlin, Charles | Silverman, Julius |
| Ellis, John | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Slater, Joseph |
| Ennals, David | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Small, William |
| Ensor, David | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) | McBride, Neil | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | MacColl, James | Storehouse, Rt. Hn. John |
| Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen) | MacDermot, Niall | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Faulds, Andrew | Macdonald, A. H. | Swain, Thomas |
| Fernyhough, E. | McGulre, Michael | Swingler, Stephen |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Symonds, J. B. |
| Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich) | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Taverne, Dick |
| Thomas, Rt. Hn. George | Wellbeloved, James | Winnick, David |
| Thornton, Ernest | Whitaker, Ben | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Tinn, James, | Wilkins, W. A. | Woof, Robert |
| Urwin, T. W. | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Wyatt, Woodrow |
| Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) | Yates, Victor |
| Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) | |
| Watkins, David (Consett) | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) | Willis, Rt. Hn. George | Mr. John McCann and |
| Weitzman, David | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) | Mr. Joseph Harper. |
| NOES | ||
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Gower, Raymond | Nott, John |
| Allason, dames (Hemel Hempstead) | Grant-Ferris, R. | Onslow, Cranley |
| Astor, John | Grieve, Percy | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian |
| Awdry, Daniel | Gurden, Harold | Osborn, John (Hallam) |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Balniel. Lord | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Percival, Ian |
| Bell, Ronald | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Peyton, John |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Bessell, Peter | Hastings, Stephen | Pounder, Rafton |
| Biffen, John | Hawkins, Paul | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel | Hay, John | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Blaker, Peter | Heseltine, Michael | Pym, Francis |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Higgins, Terence L. | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Hill, J. E. B. | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Holland, Philip | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Hooson, Emlyn | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Braine, Bernard | Hordern, Peter | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Ridsdale, Julian | |
| Bromley-Davenport.Lt.-Col.SirWalter | Hornby, Richard | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Howell, David (Guildford) | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Bryan, Paul | Hunt, John | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Buchanan-Smith,Alick(Angus, N&M) | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Royle, Anthony |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Iremonger, T. L. | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Burden, F. A. | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Scott, Nicholas |
| Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Campbell, Cordon (Moray & Nairn) | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | Silvester, Frederick |
| Carlisle, Mark | Jopling, Michael | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Cary, Sir Robert | Kerby, Capt. Henry | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Kershaw, Anthony | Smith, John (London & W'minster) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Kimball, Marcus | Speed, Keith |
| Clegg, Walter | Kitson, Timothy | Stainton, Keith |
| Cooke, Robert | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) |
| Cooper-Key, Sir Neill | Lambton, Viscount | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Cordle, John | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Tapsell, Peter |
| Corfield, F. V. | Lane, David | Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Costain, A. P. | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Teeling, Sir William |
| Crouch, David | Lloyd, Rt.Hn.Geoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield) | Temple, John M. |
| Crowder, F. P. | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Longden, Gilbert | Tilney, John |
| Dance, James | Loveys, W. H. | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Davidson,James(Aberdeenshlre,W.) | Lubbock, Eric | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| d'Avlgdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | MacArthur, Ian | Waddington, David |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Mackenzie, Alasdair(Ross&Crom'ty) | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Doughty, Charles | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Eden, Sir John | Maddan, Martin | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Maginnis, John E. | Wall, Patrick |
| Elliott,R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Walters, Dennis |
| Errington, Sir Erie | Marten, Neil | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Eyre, Reginald | Maude, Angus | Webster, David |
| Fair, John | Mawby, Ray | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Fisher, Nigel | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | May don, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Fortescue, Tim | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Foster, Sir John | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(S'fford & Stone) | Miscampbell, Norman | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Monro, Hector | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Montgomery, Fergus | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Giles, Rear-A dm. Morgan | More, Jasper | Wright, Esmond |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Wylie, N. R. |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Younger, Hn. George |
| Glyn, Sir Richard | Murton, Oscar | |
| Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Neave, Airey | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Goodhart, Philip | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Mr. Anthony Grant and |
| Goodhew, Victor | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Mr. Bernard Weatherill. |
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.
523§ Lords Amendment No. 37: In page 16, line 30, leave out paragraph (xi).
§ Read a Second time.
§ Mr. MarshI beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
The Amendment is designed simply to deprive the Executive of the right to sell petrol, spare parts, and so on, and provide car servicing facilities, at its car parks. [Interruption.] I appreciate that hon. Members opposite have strong feelings on anything like this. One of the main fears that prompts those feelings is that the provision would lead to the possibility of subsidised trading or unsound investment decisions. There is very little in that fear. The Executive will have a duty to break even year by year, and it will seek to make a profit from such services to offset the inevitable losses on public transport services which are socially necessary but unremunerative.
On the one hand, the Executive has a legal obligation to break even year by year, and on the other it has a strong incentive to use what profit-making services it can to produce a commercial profit to offset to some extent the costs of unremunerative services which are socially necessary. If this were not of itself a sufficient safeguard, Clause 16(4) gives power to the Minister to intervene in any case where it may be plain that the Executive is indulging in unfair trading activities. I am also introducing an Amendment to which will extend the obligation laid down in Lords Amendment No. 176 to act in a commercial manner. The economic pressures on the Executive not to run such services at a loss, which I think is something private entrepreneurs fear most in this field, are very strong, and provision is built into the Bill to enable the Minister to give Ministerial directives and intervene if necessary.
The only other question is whether these powers are necessary to the Executive. I think that they are very necessary, because car parks, and the facilities which go with them, are an essential part of a good public transport system. When the centres of our cities become heavily congested, I want to see more and more people leaving their cars in car parks on the peripheries before 524 reaching the congested city centres. We want to see more and more commuters and shoppers making the last part of their journey by train or bus, even if they make the first part of it by car. It would be generally accepted on both sides of the House that, in order to be able to achieve that, it is essential to enable the Executive to provide facilities for people to park their cars. If one provides the car parks, a very heavy added incentive to use them is the provision of the facilities which go with them.
In short, what we seek to do is to encourage a good habit in the motorist, with car parks of this kind made attractive to him, in places where he will be able to buy his petrol and get his car serviced during the day, and that he should make the last part of his journey by public transport. This seems to me highly desirable on every ground. These are facilities which commercial operators regularly accept as normal and essential to make their car parks attractive. Given the protection that I have spelled out, which is already in the Bill, and given the economic pressures on the Executives to make sure they act commercially, I can see no reason for the fears which have been expressed and which prompt the Amendment, nor can I see any argument against a provision which is both economically sound and highly desirable.
§ 10.30 p.m.
§ Mr. Michael HeseltineI hope the House will not disagree with the Lords in this Amendment. I must be frank: this is an Amendment we ourselves discussed during our deliberations on the Bill, and this is the last chance the House has to look at the whole question of the activities or organisations set up to deal with passenger transport in the conurbations. We are concerned, and have been concerned throughout, that by giving to the passenger transport executives wide powers under Clause 10 of the Bill we shall simply divert them from the main purpose for which they are to exist. I would have thought there were few areas where they would be more likely to be so diverted than that of running, in competition with the private sector, what, I am sure, they will all hope at the beginning will be commercial garages.
I appreciate that it is always the intention of anyone arguing in favour of 525 powers of this sort that such public organisations going into a sector where profits have been made should go into competition so that, hey presto, the profits go to the public sector, but one has only to see that since the war there has been a net loss to the taxpayer of £1,000 million to perceive that this sort of attitude hardly rings true. Bearing in mind the promises hon. Members opposite have always given whenever they have sought power of this sort, and, perhaps more important, bearing in mind the disastrous results which have invariably flowed from those promises, I hope the House will see fit to resist the temptation to give these organisations opportunity to sell petrol, spare parts, and various other things of the sort.
Let not the Minister confuse the House with the suggestion that this has got something to do with the provision of car parks. No one so far as I am aware, has ever said that the passenger transport executives should not ever pro vide car parks. The Minister asked, "What about the facilities?" I am not going to run away from that, but he was talking about the provision of car parks under Clause 10(1)(xi) and we are not talking about the provision of car parks —and as my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) says, the Minister I am sure, is fully aware that we are not talking about car parks. That power to provide car parks is given to the executives under another part of Clause 10 and we do not wish to dispute it. We are not even trying to stop the provision of facilities at car parks. Far from it.
We moved an Amendment when we were in Committee on the Bill to make it possible to provide these facilities by offering the right to provide the facilities by public tender. In other words, we wanted to let the public sector have the right. We wanted to bring in the expertise of people already providing garages with certain skills and with risk capital which can ill be spared in the great concept of the passenger transport authorities. It is difficult for the public sector to provide these facilities. There could have been no objection to the provision of facilities at the car parks. Much more important, perhaps, under our Amendment, the public would not have been put 526 at risk, and it was the public we were seeking to protect.
There is an objection which has worried me ever since I first looked at the Bill. Are the transport executives going to provide facilities at garages under this subsection? It will be possible for them then to be involved in retailing cars themselves. This, though not directly expressed in the Bill, is not very difficult to contrive, as one sees when one realises that the executives have the right to transfer any of their land to anybody with whom they want to go into partner ship. They can go into partnership with any of the other nationalised boards, and the national bus company will, of course, be such a natural partner. So what I suspect will happen is that there will be transport executive car parks operated by the transport executives in partnership with the national bus company using land which will have been filched from the ratepayers of the various conurbations at low cost and no compensation. And those people are supposed to be operating in competition with the private sector.
This is in no way intended in this legislation, but it is perfectly possible as the legislation stands. Only by removing this small subsection can the private sector be protected from what will be totally unfair competition. The wording in the Bill gives some semblance of competition, but the essence of it is that the value of the assets which are introduced into the business will be used to compete with the private sector. The capital assets, the land on which the activities will be conducted, have been removed from the municipality at no cost, have been introduced into the books of the Executive at no cost and have been transferred to the National Bus Company at no cost. It is perfectly justifiable for the National Bus Company to say that it is not expected to earn a return on the value of the land. How then can one say what is commercial behaviour in those circumstances? This is why we have always regarded this sort of ancillary activitity of the Transport Executive with the gravest suspicion.
There is a major job to be done; that I do not dispute. That the wrong body is to do it I certainly would argue. The job does not consist of providing 527 restaurant cars, greasing facilities, petrol facilities, bookstalls and a whole range of ancillary activities which are easy to get involved in and even easier to lose a lot of money in.
§ Dr. M. P. Winstanley (Cheadle)I have no wish to rehearse the arguments on this subject which have been heard on many occasions, although I adhere more closely to the arguments on this side than on the other side.
I have listened to the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman very carefully, and in many ways they are valid. We need car parks, and car parks have to be such that people are willing and encouraged to use them. Anthing which can be done in that way is a good thing.
There is a parallel in the motorway system, which has a series of service stations, and the Government have taken great care to keep out of service stations. When I raised this matter earlier with the Minister of State he gave me many reasons why it was a good thing for the motorway service stations to remain in private hands. If that is a good thing—and perhaps it is—it would also be a good thing for these facilities to remain in private hands. Certainly have these provisions, but why not allow them to be operated by concessionaires, as is done with the motorways?
One appreciates that it is desirable to have facilities of this kind for car park users, but there is a clear inducement for other people to use them in addition to the car park users. It may be that the volume of trade coming from other sources might exceed the car park trade and therefore almost defeat the object.
With the motorway service stations precautions are taken and enforced to ensure that they are used only by motorway users. The service roads are one-way roads on which only service vehicles are allowed. If one applied the Minister's proposals for car parks to the motorways, private operators would be turned off the motorways and these facilities would be operated as State concerns, and the public would be allowed to use the service roads. There is inconsistency here.
§ Mr. BerryAlthough the Minister appears to be speaking so convincingly, 528 when one analyses his words one realises how few facts are behind them. I was not surprised to hear him giving the impression that if we agreed to the Lords Amendment there would be no question of these facilities being possible outside towns. People drive in and park and drive out later. He gave the impression that, if we agree with their Lordships, this wonderful idea falls to the ground. But that is nonsense, and I am sure that the Minister knows it.
We are discussing the way in which it should be done. We do not believe that it is a job to be done by the P.T.E.s. We agree that the facilities should be provided, but the P.T.E.s are not the people to do it.
I was looking at the debate in the other place, and I see that the Govern ment spokesman, Lord Bowles, attempted to justify the argument on the ground that private enterprise is worried by inefficient competition from the P.T.E.s in running garages and serving petrol. However, that is not the argument. Private enterprise is concerned because, if the P.T.E.s are inefficient in running garages and serving petrol, it is the taxpayers and ratepayers who will have to provide the money. They are not used to doing that. If private enterprise goes wrong, it loses its own money.
I would draw attention to another specific point which was raised in the Lords and to which I should like an answer from the Government. Will the people running these subsidiary services have to pay S.E.T.?
In summary, I would say to the Minister that I support his general idea, but I condemn the way in which he is setting about it.
§ Mr. MarshI am surprised that the debate has engendered so much heat. It seems to be a simple and sensible proposition.
The hon. Member for Cheadle (Dr. Winstanley) drew a comparison between what is proposed here and the provision of motorway facilities. I think that there is a fundamental difference. The facilities proposed in the Bill are wanted because we wish the Executive to use them not purely as a commercial exercise on the side but as part of their overall transport 529 policy. We want deliberately to attract motorists into these parks. We want them to leave their cars there and travel by public transport. And we all know that motorists are attracted by other facilities which enable them to leave their cars and have them serviced, and so on.
Within the specific provision, there is nothing to prevent the P.T.E.s reaching agreements with private operators to provide the facilities for them, but there is no reason why they should be barred from doing the job themselves if they think that they can do it and provided that they are obliged to make a profit. To make it impossible for them to do the job themselves would place them in the hands of private companies. On the other hand, if they want to arrange for private companies to do it, they can, and competition will be guaranteed either way.
I was asked about S.E.T. The answer is that the Executives will be treated no differently from anyone else.
Here we have an ordinary commercial activity which is also essential to the operation of the policy. The only matter which causes any division is the incredible doctrinal blindness which regards any attempt by any public body to carry out any activity which might make a profit as something to be resisted. On this as on every other issue, hon. Gentlemen opposite complain bitterly every time a nationalised industry does not make a profit, and object bitterly to it ever entering into profit-making activities.
10.45 p.m.
Therefore, unless hon. Gentlemen opposite—
§ Mr. Kenneth Lewis (Rutland and Stamford)What about S.E.T.?
§ in the same way as everybody else. That should remove the last remaining doubt from the hon. Gentleman's mind. But if the Opposition are unwise enough to press this matter to a division, the hon. Gentleman's company will be welcomed in our Lobby.
§ Mr. Peter WalkerHaving listened to that non-doctrinal speech from the Minister, may I say that we are dissatisfied with his reply. The right hon. Gentleman has not commented on the considerable advantage that these Executives can enjoy from the value of the assets that they have to service. This is a fundamental reason why it would be unfair and unreasonable to competing services for them to operate their own petrol stations and other facilities.
The Minister gave the impression that there would only be openings for such facilities on the outskirts of conurbations. If the right hon. Gentleman examines Clause 10(10) he will see that they can open these facilities wherever they operate a service, and a great deal of their services are operated at the centres of cities. Therefore, they may well decide, particularly with a Socialist-dominated Passenger Transport Authority, to open such facilities in city centres with all the advantages of having obtained their assets at well under market value. This would be extending public ownership by unfair competition, which is the most dishonourable way of obtaining public ownership.
Therefore, I ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to divide the House.
§ Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment: —
§ The House divided: Ayes 252, Noes 204.
533| Division No. 295.] | AYES | [10.45 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Bidwell, Sydney | Buchan, Norman |
| Albu, Austen | Bishop, E. S. | Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Blackburn, F. | Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) |
| Alldritt, Walter | Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) |
| Anderson, Donald | Booth, Albert | Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James |
| Archer, Peter | Boston, Terence | Cant, R. B. |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Carmichael, Neil |
| Ashley, Jack | Boyden, James | Carter-Jones, Lewis |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Coe, Denis |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Bradley, Tom | Coleman, Donald |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Concannon, J. D. |
| Barnes, Michael | Brooks, Edwin | Conlan, Bernard |
| Beaney, Alan | Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Corbet, Mrs. Freda |
| Bence, Cyril | Brown,Bob(N 'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) | Crawshaw, Richard |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Cullen, Mrs. Alice |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) |
| Davies, C. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull W.) | Paget, R. T. |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Park, Trevor |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Dell, Edmund | Judd, Frank | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Dempsey, James | Kelley, Richard | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Dewar, Donald | Kenyon, Clifford | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Dickens, James | Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central) | Pentland, Norman |
| Dobson, Ray | Kerr, Russell (Feltham) | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Doig, Peter | Lawson, George | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Dunn, James A. | Leadbitter, Ted | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Lestor, Miss Joan | Probert, Arthur |
| Eadie, Alex | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Rankin, John |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) | Rees, Merlyn |
| Ellis, John | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Reynolds, Rt. Hn. G. W. |
| Ennals, David | Lipton, Marcus | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Ensor, David | Lomas, Kenneth | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) | |
| Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen) | Loughlin, Charles | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | |
| Faulds, Andrew | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Fernyhough, E. | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.) |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | McCann, John | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) |
| Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich) | MacColl, James | |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | MacDermot, Niall | Sheldon Robert |
| Ford, Ben | Short, Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne) | |
| Forrester, John | Macdonald, A. H. | Short, Mrs. Renee (W'hampton,N.E.) |
| Fowler, Gerry | McGuire, Michael | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Fraser, John (Norwood) | McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Silverman, Julius |
| Freeson, Reginald | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Slater, Joseph |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Mackie, John | Small, William |
| Gardner, Tony | Mackintosh, John P. | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Garrett, W. E. | Maclennan, Robert | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Ginsburg, David | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John |
| Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | McNamara, J. Kevin | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Gourlay, Harry | MacPherson, Malcolm | Swain, Thomas |
| Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Swingler, Stephen |
| Gregory, Arnold | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Taverne, Dick |
| Grey, Charles (Durham) | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George |
| Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside) | Manuel, Archie | Thornton, Ernest |
| Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. | Mapp, Charles | Tinn, James |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Marks, Kenneth | Urwin, T. W. |
| Hamling, William | Marquand, David | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Harper, Joseph | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Watkins David (Consett) |
| Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Mayhew, Christopher | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Hazell, Bert | Mendelson, J. J. | Weitzman, David |
| Healey, Rt. Hn. Edward | Millan, Bruce | Wellbeloved, James |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Moonman, Eric | Whitaker, Ben |
| Hilton, W. S. | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town) | Morris, Charles (Openshaw) | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Hooley, Frank | Morris, John (Aberavon) | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Moyle, Roland | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Neal, Harold | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Howie, W. | Newens, Stan | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Hoy, James | Oakes, Gordon | Winnick, David |
| Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Ogden, Eric | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | O'Malley, Brian | Woof, Robert |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Oram, Albert E. | Wyatt, Woodrow |
| Hunter, Adam | Orbach, Maurice | Yates, Victor |
| Hynd, John | Orme, Stanley | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Oswald, Thomas | Mr. Neil McBride and |
| Janner, Sir Barnett | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) | Mr. Ernest Perry. |
| NOES | ||
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Bessell, Peter | Bruce-Gardyne, J. |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Biffen, John | Bryan, Paul |
| Astor, John | Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel | Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M) |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Black, Sir Cyril | Bullus, Sir Eric |
| Awdry, Daniel | Blaker, Peter | Burden, F. A. |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.) |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Bossom, Sir dive | Campbell Gordon (Moray & Nairn) |
| Balniel, Lord | Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Carlisle, Mark |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Cary, Sir Robert |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Braine, Bernard | Channon, H. P. G. |
| Bell, Ronald | Brinton, Sir Tatton | Chichester-Clark, R. |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.SirWalter | Clegg, Walter |
| Cooke, Robert | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Cooper-Key, Sir Neill | Iremonger, T. L. | Pym, Francis |
| Cordle, John | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Corfield, F. V. | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Costain, A. P. | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | Renton, Rt. Hn, Sir David |
| Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Jopling, Michael | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Crouch, David | Kerby, Capt. Henry | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Crowder, F. P. | Kershaw, Anthony | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Dalkeith Earl of | Kimball, Marcus | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Dance, James | Kitson, Timothy | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Davidson,James(Aberdeenshire, W.) | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Lambton, Viscount | Royle, Anthony |
| Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. w. F. (Ashford) | Lane, David | Scott, Nicholas |
| Doughty, Charles | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Sharpies, Richard |
| Eden, Sir John | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Elliot, capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Lloyd,Rt.Hn.Geoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield) | Silvester, Frederick |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Farr, John | Longden, Gilbert | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Fisher, Nigel | Loveys, W. H. | Smith, John (London & W'minster) |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Lubbock, Eric | Speed, Keith |
| Fortescue, Tim | MacArthur, Ian | Stainton, Keith |
| Foster, Sir John | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) | |
| Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone) | Mackenzie, Alasdair(Ross&Crom'ty) | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain | Tapsell, Peter |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Maddan, Martin | Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan | Maginnis, John E. | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Marten, Neil | Teeling, Sir William |
| Glyn, Sir Richard | Maude, Angus | Temple, John M. |
| Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Mawby, Ray | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Goodhart, Philip | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Goodhew, Victor | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Tilney, John |
| Gower, Raymond | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Grant, Anthony | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Grant-Ferris, R. | Miscampbell, Norman | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| Grieve, Percy | Monro, Hector | |
| Gurden, Harold | Montgomery, Fergus | Waddington, David |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | More, Jasper | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Murton, Oscar | Wall, Patrick |
| Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Neave, Airey | Walters, Dennis |
| Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Ward, Dame Irens |
| Harvie Anderson, Miss | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | W either ill, Bernard |
| Hastings, Stephen | Nott, John | Webster, David |
| Hawkins, Paul | Onslow, Cranley | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Hay, John | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward | Osborn. John (Hallam) | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Heseltine, Michael | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Higgins, Terence L. | Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Hill, J. E. B. | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Holland, Philip | Percival, Ian | Wright, Esmond |
| Hooson, Emlyn | Peyton, John | Wylie, M. R. |
| Hordern, Peter | Pink, R. Bonner | Younger, Hn. George |
| Hornby, Richard | Pounder, Rafton | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Howell, David (Guildford) | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Mr. R. W. Elliott and |
| Hunt, John | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Mr. Reginald Eyre. |
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.—[One with Special Entry.]
- Clause 36
- POWER OF LOCAL AUTHORITY TO RUN CONTRACT CARRIAGE 3,698 words, 1 division
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cc533-43