HC Deb 29 May 1968 vol 765 cc2009-19

ENFORCEMENT—FIXED PENALTIES AND TRAFFIC WARDENS

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Elystan Morgan)

I beg to move Amendment No. 437, in page 164, line 9, leave out 'subsection' and insert 'subsections'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this Amendment it would be convenient to discuss the Government Amendment No. 438, in page 164, line 12, after ' order'. insert: and subject to the provisions of sub-section (4B) below'. Opposition Amendment No. 439, in page 164, leave out lines 28 and 29 and the Government Amendment No. 440, in page 164, line 42, at end insert: (4B) Any power of a constable for the purpose of the following provisions of the Road Traffic Act 1960, namely, sections 223, 225(1) and (4) and 226, shall be exercisable by a traffic warden under an order made by virtue of subsection (4A) above only where—

  1. (a) the traffic warden is assisting a constable; or
  2. (b) the traffic warden has reasonable cause to believe that an offence has been committed of a description specified in relation to the section in question for the purposes of this paragraph by the order and. in the case of a power for the purposes of the said section 226, the order authorises the use of that power in relation to that offence; or
  3. (c) in the case of a power for the purposes of the said section 223, the traffic warden in exercising functions in connection with the control and regulation of traffic (including foot passengers) or vehicles.

Mr. Morgan

Amendments Nos. 437 and 438 are paving Amendments to No. 440. Amendment No. 440 seeks to amend Clause 123, which itself amends Sections 80 and 81 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act, 1967. Part of the amendment already embodied in the Clause deals with the extension of the fixed penalty system, with which we are not concerned at the moment. The second part of Clause 123—subsections (2), (3) and (4) has the effect of extend- ing the functions and powers of traffic wardens.

The purpose of Amendment No. 440 is to place additional statutory restrictions upon the power and authority of the Home Secretary to make functions Orders in this connection. When Clause 123 was published, fears were expressed that the Home Secretary would be enabled by it to give traffic wardens a wide ranging general discretion to stop vehicles and inspect documents. It is hoped that this Amendment will have the effect of allaying those fears.

The Amendment operates by making the exercise of certain powers granted by Clause 123, namely, powers to stop vehicles, powers on the part of traffic wardens to require the giving of particulars and the production of documents, and the exercise of those powers, conditional upon the existence of certain circumstances.

These circumstances are threefold. All are alternative. The first condition is that the traffic warden is assisting a constable. Second, that the traffic warden has reasonable cause to believe that an offence has been committed, of a description specified in relation to this Section for purposes of this paragraph by the Order. In the case of a power for the purpose of Sections 225(1) and (4) and 226 of the Road Traffic Act 1960 the Order must authorise the use of the power in relation to an offence.

Third, to exercise the power under Section 223 of the Road Traffic Act 1960, —that is, the power of arbitrarily stopping a vehicle, which is at present vested in a police constable—the traffic warden must also be exercising functions in connection with the control and regulation of traffic, including foot passengers or vehicles.

The primary effect of the law if this Amendment is carried can, I believe, be summarised under three headings.

Mr. Peter Walker

We are most grateful for this excellent explanation, but is the hon. Gentleman aware that we on this side of the House are very much in favour of this Amendment and doubtless so is the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends; so perhaps we can do without this very long explanation.

Mr. Morgan

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Perhaps I should even apologise, since I doubt very much whether these Amendments have the clash of doctrinal confrontation such as the most interesting one with which we dealt earlier.

Mr. Michael Heseltine

The reason we are so keen on these Amendments is because we moved them in Committee.

Mr. Morgan

That is certainly not true. I have studied very carefully the debate which occurred on what was Clause 146 of the original Bill. The position can be summarised in these categories in this way: first, traffic wardens can only be used in matters relating to traffic and vehicles. This was the one point that was raised under Clause 146 in Committee and I belabour it because I have no doubt it will save a great deal of argument elsewhere on this particular matter.

I stress again, as was stressed in Committee, that there is no question at all of traffic wardens exercising any general duties, and no question of them taking any part in the maintenance of public order. Secondly, the activities in respect of which they can exercise their powers.

12.15 a.m.

Mr. Bessell

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. We discussed upstairs the question whether traffic wardens should have the right of arrest and the Minister of State said that they would not. I have always understood, and 1 believe that the hon. Gentleman may be able to accept it, that every citizen has the right of arrest.

Mr. Morgan

Yes, that is so. There is no question of traffic wardens having any right of search or arrest other than the ordinary citizen's existing power of arrest or search.

The Clause gives wardens no powers, but within these narrow limits the Home Secretary can make certain function Orders. Two such Orders have been made, in 1960 and 1965, and were affirmative Orders agreed by both Houses. The powers under which the Orders may be made fall into three groups—first, those relating to stopping, controlling and directing traffic, second, those enabling wardens to require the production of licences, insurance certificates and test certificates or requiring drivers and others to give names and addresses, and, third, the power to give evidence under Section 242 of the 1960 Act, where an admission about the driving or ownership of a vehicle has been made by any person.

Although this is an Amendment to an Amendment, and therefore is not entirely uncomplicated, it sets out the narrow limits within which the Home Secretary may make these function Orders. It does not enable wardens to operate on a general roving commission.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: No. 438, in page 164, line 12, after ' order ', insert: and subject to the provisions of subsection (4B) below '.

No. 440, in page 164, line 42, at end insert: (4B) Any power of a constable for the purposes of the following provisions of the Road Traffic Act 1960, namely, sections 223, 225(1) and (4) arid 226, shall be exercisable by a traffic warden under an order made by virtue of subsection (4A) above only where—

  1. (a) the traffic warden is assisting a constable; or
  2. (b) the traffic warden has reasonable cause to believe that an offence has been committed of a description specified in relation to the section in question for the purposes of this paragraph by the order and, in the case of a power for the purposes of the said section 226, the order authorizes the use of that power in relation to that offence; or
  3. (c) in the case of a power for the purposes of the said section 223, the traffic warden is exercising functions in connection with the control and regulation of traffic (including foot passengers)orvehicles.—[Mr. Elystan Morgan.]

Mr. Michael Heseltine

I beg to move Amendment No. 441, in page 164, line 42, at end insert: (5) In the Police Act of 194 the provisions of section 30 (which allows the Home Secretary to require certain information from chief constables) shall extend to matters connected with the activities of traffic wardens, and the provisions of section 49 and section 50 (which establishes the procedure for dealing with complaints against the police) shall extend to complaints against traffic wardens. This is a simple Amendment, and I am sure that it will be acceptable to the Government. Following our discussions about the extended powers of traffic wardens, it would simply bring them under the same jurisdiction and appeals system as the police. Now that traffic wardens, in certain activities, are on all fours with the police, they should be covered by the same principles. The Police Act gives the Secretary of State the right to obtain reports from Chief Constables on specified matters, and, under Sections 49 and 50, it is mandatory that such complaints shall be investigated and local constabularies shall be compelled to keep themselves informed about the way in which the complaints from the public are dealt with. This is a reasonable Amendment and I hope that it will be accepted.

Mr. Elystan Morgan

I concede that this is a very simple Amendment, but that does not mean that it is either necessary or desirable.

Briefly, the reasons for resisting this Amendment, as I invite the House to do, are these. The provisions under Section 49 of the Police Act, 1964, do not stand by themselves. They are part of a comprehensive code of discipline which is referred to in Section 33 of the Police Act under which regulations are made. I do not think anyone should look at Section 49 of the 1964 Act alone, as if this constituted the total machinery of discipline insofar as the police are concerned.

Secondly, even though in this Bill we are somewhat widening—the House agrees to that—the functions and powers of traffic wardens, no hon. Member would argue that those have been widened to such an extent as to compare with the tremendous scope of responsibilities and powers which the police have. As has already been pointed out, a police officer has power of arrest, of search, of entry, of detention of property and a multifarious range of other duties with regard to non-traffic offences. The range of duties which fall to the lot of traffic wardens, even extended by function orders as a result of Clause 123 of the Bill, will not be of the same scope as those already enjoyed by police officers, therefore the solemn and formal machinery set up under Section 49 of the Police Act would not be necessary.

Again, the machinery under Section 50 of the Act which requires chief officers and inspectors of constabulary to keep themselves informed regarding complaints about members of a force are not called for as chief officers already do this.

Thirdly, as far as the power of the Home Secretary for reports under Section 30 of the Police Act is concerned, it is my contention—and I trust the House will agree—that already this includes the power to call for reports in relation to traffic wardens. The Section deals with matters connected with policing in the areas of the particular chief officers of police. Since traffic wardens may act only under the direction of chief constables, and for traffic and traffic law

enforcement prescribed by the Secretary of State, all conceivable traffic warden duties would appear to be connected with the policing of the chief officer's area and already within the scope of that Section. Specific reference in Clause 123 as proposed in the Amendment would be otiose and I ask the House to reject this Amendment.

Question put, That the Amendment be made: —

The House divided: Ayes 214; Noes 248.

Division No. 202.] AYES [12.24 a.m.
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Eyre, Reginald Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Farr, John Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)
Astor, John Fisher, Nigel Lubbock, Eric
Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) Fletcher-Cooke, Charles MacArthur, Ian
Awdry, Daniel Fortescue, Tim McMaster, Stanley
Baker, Kenneth (Acton) Foster, Sir John Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)
Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) Galbraith, Hn. T. G. Maddan, Martin
Balniel, Lord Gibson-Watt, David Maginnis, John E.
Batsford, Brian Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan Marten, Neil
Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) Maude, Angus
Bell, Ronald Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) Mawby, Ray
Berry, Hn. Anthony G'yn, Sir Richard Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Bessell, Peter Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)
Biffen, John Goodhart, Philip Miscampbell, Norman
Biggs-Davison, John Goodhew, Victor Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Black, Sir Cyril Gower, Raymond Montgomery, Fergus
Blaker, Peter Grant, Anthony More, Jasper
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) Grant-Ferris, R. Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Body, Richard Cresham Cooke, R. Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles
Bossom, Sir Clive Grieve, Percy Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) Murton, Oscar
Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward Gurden, Harold Neave, Airey
Braine, Bernard Hall, John (Wycombe) Nicholls, Sir Harmar
Brewis, John Hall-Davis, A G. F. Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Brinton, Sir Tatton Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Nott, John
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Onslow, Cranley
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eve) Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian
Bryan, Paul Harvie Anderson, Miss Page, Graham (Crosby)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N & M) Hastings, Stephen Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Buck, Antony (Colchester) Hawkins, Paul Pardoe John
Bullus, Sir Eric Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)
Burden, F. A. Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward Peel, John
Campbell, Gordon Heseltine, Michael Percival, Ian
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Higgins, Terence L. Peyton, John
Cary, Sir Robert Hiley, Joseph Pike, Miss Mervyn
Chichester-Clark, R. Hill, J. E. B. Pink, R. Bonner
Clark, Henry Holland, Philip Pounder, Rafton
Clegg, Walter Hordern, Peter Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Cooke, Robert Hornby, Richard Price, David (Eastleigh)
Cooper-Key, Sir Neill Howell, David (Guildford) Prior, J. M. L.
Corfield, F. V. Hunt, John Pym, Francis
Costain, A. P. Hutchison, Michael Clark Quennell, Miss J. M.
Crouch, David Iremonger, T. L. Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Crowder, F. P. Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter
Cunningham, Sir Knox Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Dalkeith, Earl of Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Dance, James Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Davidson, James(Aberdeenshire, W.) Kaberry, Sir Donald Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)
Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) Kerby, Capt. Henry Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) Kershaw, Anthony Royle, Anthony
Digby, Simon Wingfield Kimball, Marcus Russell, Sir Ronald
Dodds-Parker, Douglas King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) St. John-Stevas, Norman
Doughty, Charles Kirk, Peter Scott, Nicholas
Drayson, G. B. Kitson, Timothy Scott-Hopkins, James
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Knight, Mrs. Jill Sharples, Richard
Eden, Sir John Lambton, Viscount Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whithy)
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Lancaster, Col. C. G. Silvester, Frederick
Emery, Peter Lane, David Sinclair, Sir George
Errington, Sir Eric Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)
Smith, John (London & W'minster) Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Speed, Keith van Straubenzee, W. R. Winstanley, Or. M. P.
Stainton, Keith Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Steel, David (Roxburgh) Vickers, Dame Joan Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Stodart, Anthony Walker, Peter (Worcester) Woodnutt, Mark
Stoddart-Scott Col. Sir M. (Ripon) Wall, Patrick Worsley, Marcus
Tapsell, Peter Walters, Dennis Wylie, N. R.
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Weatherill, Bernard Younger, Hn. George
Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart) Webster, David
Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) Wells, John (Maidstone)
Teeling, Sir William Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Temple, John M. Williams, Donald (Dudley) Mr. R. W. Elliott and
Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) Mr. Hector Monro.
NOES
Albu, Austen Eadie, Alex Lomas, Kenneth
Alldritt, Walter Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Lyon, Alexander W. (York)
Allen, Scholefield Edwards, William (Mrioneth) Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)
Anderson, Donald Ellis, John Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson
Archer, Peter English, Michael McBride, Neil
Armstrong, Ernest Ennals, David McCann, John
Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) Ensor, David MacColl, James
Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) MacDermot, Niall
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Faulds, Andrew Macdonald, A. H.
Barnes, Michael Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) McGuire, Michael
Barnett, Joel Foley, Maurice McKay, Mrs. Margaret
Bence, Cyril Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich) Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)
Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) Mackie, John
Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) Forrester, John Mackintosh, John P.
Binns, John Fowler, Gerry Maclennan, Robert
Bishop, E. s. Fraser, John (Norwood) McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Blackburn, F. Freeson, Reginald McNamara, J. Kevin
Blenkinsop, Arthur Galpern, Sir Myer MacPherson, Malcolm
Boardman, H. (Leigh) Gardner, Tony Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)
Booth, Albert Garrett, W. E. Mallatieu, E. L. (Brigg)
Boyden, James Gourlay, Harry Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) Manuel, Archie
Bradley, Tom Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony Marks, Kenneth
Brooks, Edwin Gregory, Arnold Marquand, David
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard
Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy
Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.) Hamling, William Mayhew, Christopher
Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) Hannan, William Mendelson, J. J.
Buchan, Norman Harper, Joseph Mikardo, Ian
Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Millan, Bruce
Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) Haseldine, Norman Miller, Dr. M. S.
Cant, R. B. Hattersley, Roy Milne, Edward (Blyth)
Carmichael, Neil Hazell, Bert Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Coe, Denis Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) Morris, Charies R. (Openshaw)
Coleman, Donald Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) Moyle, Roland
Concannon, J. D. Howie, W. Murray, Albert
Conlan, Bernard Hoy, James Neal, Harold
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Huckfield, Leslie Newens, Stan
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) Norwood, Christopher
Crawshaw, Richard Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) Ogden, Eric
Cronin, John Hughes, Roy (Newport) O'Malley, Brian
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Hunter, Adam Orme, Stanley
Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard Hynd, John Oswald, Thomas
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)
Dalyell, Tam Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) Owen, Will (Morpeth)
Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway) Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Paget, R. T.
Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.) Palmer, Arthur
Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Park, Trevor
Davies, Harold (Leek) Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) Parker, John (Dagenham)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) Parkin, Ben (Paddington, N.)
de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull W.) Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)
Dell, Edmund Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn(W.Ham, S.) Pavitt, Laurence
Dempsey, James Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)
Dewar, Donald Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred
Diamond, Rt Hn. John Judd, Frank Pentland, Norman
Dickens, James Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) Perry, Ernest G. (Battcrsea, S.)
Dobson, Ray Kerr, Russell (Feltham) Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)
Doig, Peter Lawson, George Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.
Driberg, Tom Ledger, Ron Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)
Dunn, James A. Lee, John (Reading) Probert, Arthur
Dunnett, Jack Lestor, Miss Joan Rankin, John
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Rees, Merlyn
Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Reynolds, G. W.
Richard, Ivor Snow, Juliar Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)
Robertt, Goronwy (Caernarvon) Spriggs, Leslie Wellbeloved, James
Robertson, John (Paisley) Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael Whitlock, William
Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St.P'c'as) Storehouse, John Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)
Rodgers, William (Stockton) Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)
Roebuck, Roy Swain, Thomas Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Rose, Paul Swingler, Stephen Willis, Rt. Hn. George
Ross, Rt. Hn. William Taverne, Dick Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.) Thomas, Rt. Hn. George Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Sheldon, Robert Thomson, Rt. Hn. George Winnick, David
Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) Tinn, James Woof, Robert
Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) Urwin, T. W. Yates, Victor
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) Varley, Eric G.
Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Silver-man, Julius (Aston) Walden, Brian (Alt Saints) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Slater, Joseph Walker, Harold (Doncaster) Mr. Alan Fitch and
Small, William Watkins, David (Consett) Mr. Ioan Evans.
Forward to