§ GENERAL POWERS OF EXECUTIVE
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving)The next Amendment is Amendment 50, with which we may discuss the 1466 following Amendments: No. 61, in page 14, line 38, at end insert:
'but in no case shall vicinity be regarded as extending for more than ten miles outside that area'.Government Amendment No. 52, Amendment No. 53, in page 15, line 17, at end insert:'as defined in paragraph (ii) of this subsection'.Government Amendment No. 101, and Amendment No. 102, in page 33, line 28, leave out 'outside but in the vicinity' and insert 'within ten miles'.
§ Dr. Dickson MabonI beg to move Amendment No. 50, in page 14, line 35, leave out paragraph (ii) and insert—
(ii) to carry passengers by any other form of land transport or by any form of water transport (including in either case hover vehicles) between places in that area or between such places and any place outside that area but within the permitted distance, that is to say, the following distance from the nearest point on the boundary of that area, namely—1467 The hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine) raised in Committee the question of the definition of the words "the vicinity". He said that he was not thirled—to use a good Scots word—to the idea of 20 miles, but felt that there should be something more specific than the wording in the Bill. Since then we have considered this, as the Minister of State promised.
- (a) in the case of land transport, such distance not exceeding thirty miles as may be specified in the order with respect to that area under section 9(1) of this Act or, if no distance is so specified, the distance of thirty miles;
- (b) in the case of water transport, such distance as may be specified as aforesaid;
It will be noticed from the Amendment that we make a distinction between a land transport limit of 30 miles, which we think would meet all foreseeable cases, certainly in the first four P.T.A.s—greater Manchester, West Midlands, Merseyside and Tyneside—and water transport, where we have chosen a different criterion for obvious reasons. I would strongly suggest that the Amendment should be incorporated.
The House will note that Amendment No. 101 has the effect of requiring the executive to review all the railway passenger services serving the area up to the prescribed distance. In what detail they review a service will be a matter for local decision by the executive.
Not only on this Amendment, but on the preceding Amendment, the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) keeps obscuring the issue. There are many local decisions to be taken here. This is another example of the kind of thing which we expect P.T.A.s
§ and executives to observe. It is necessary to have it in the Statute, otherwise they cannot exercise discretion. They might want to go into a good deal of detail about a doubtful service. On the other hand, they might be able to decide by a glance that a local service on the periphery of the 30-mile radius which came nowhere near the Area itself would be of no interest to them.
§ I will not deploy any arguments on the other Amendments being taken as hon. Gentlemen may wish to support them.
§ Mr. Michael HeseltineThis matter was discussed in Committee, and it is obvious to me, having listened to what the Minister of State has said, that the gulf between us is extremely wide. We are rapidly drawing to a conclusion of the discussion on the Clause, and, if we discuss a matter on which there is such a wide gap, there will be no prospect of getting agreement later where there is a narrower gap which we may be able to close.
To define a 30-mile limit outside the passenger transport area is preposterous, and I shall advise my hon. Friends to vote against the Amendment.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 265, Noes, 228.
1469| Division No. 179.] | AYES | [11.22 a.m. |
| Albu, Austen | Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | Dobson, Ray |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Doig, Peter |
| Alldritt, Walter | Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Dunn, James A. |
| Allen, Scholefield | Buchan, Norman | Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) |
| Anderson, Donald | Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Eadie, Alex |
| Archer, Peter | Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Cant, R. B. | Edwards, William (Merioneth) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Carmichael, Neil | Ellis, John |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | English, Michael |
| Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice | Chapman, Donald | Ennals, David |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Coe, Denis | Ensor, David |
| Barnes, Michael | Coleman, Donald | Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) |
| Barnett, Joel | Conlan, Bernard | Fernyhough, E. |
| Baxter, William | Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) |
| Bence, Cyril | Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Crawshaw, Richard | Foley, Maurice |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich) |
| Binns, John | Culler, Mrs. Alice | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Dalyell, Tam | Ford, Ben |
| Blackburn, F. | Darling, Rt. Hn. George | Forrester, John |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Fowler, Gerry |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Fraser, John (Norwood) |
| Booth, Albert | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Freeson, Reginald |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Galpern, Sir Myer |
| Boyden, James | Delargy, Hugh | Gardner, Tony |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Dell, Edmund | Garrett, W. E. |
| Bradley, Tom | Dempsey, James | Ginsburg, David |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Dewar, Donald | Gourlay, Harry |
| Brooks, Edwin | Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Dickens, James | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony |
| Gregory, Arnold | MacColl, James | Rees, Merlyn |
| Grey, Charles (Durham) | MacDermot, Niall | Reynolds, G. W. |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Macdonald, A. H. | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Lianelly) | McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Richard, Ivor |
| Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Cunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. | Mackie, John | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Maclennan, Robert | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Hamling, William | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Robinson, Rt.Hn.Kenneth(St.P'c'as) |
| Hannan, William | McNamara, J. Kevin | Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) |
| Harper, Joseph | MacPherson, Malcolm | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) |
| Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Rose, Paul |
| Haseldine, Norman | Mallalieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Hattersley, Roy | Manuel, Archie | Ryan, John |
| Hazell, Bert | Mapp, Charles | Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.) |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Marks, Kenneth | Sheldon Robert |
| Henig, Stanley | Marquand, David | Short, Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town) | Mason, Rt. Hn, Roy | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Hooley, Frank | Mayhew, Christopher | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Mendelson, J. J. | Slater, Joseph |
| Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) | Mikardo, Ian | Small, William |
| Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Millan, Bruce | Snow, Julian |
| Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Howie, W. | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Huckfield, Leslie | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Molloy, William | Swain, Thomas |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Moonman, Eric | Swingler, Stephen |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Symonds, J. B. |
| Hunter, Adam | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Taverne, Dick |
| Hynd, John | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Thomson, Rt. Hn. George |
| Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) | Moyle, Roland | Thornton, Ernest |
| Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | Murray, Albert | Tinn, James |
| Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Neal, Harold | Urwin, T. W. |
| Janner, Sir Barnett | Newens, Stan | Varley, Eric G. |
| Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Norwood, Christopher | Wainwright, Edw'n (Dearne Valley) |
| Jeger, George (Goole) | Oakes, Gordon | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.) | Ogden, Eric | Wallace, George |
| Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | O'Malley, Brian | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Oram, Albert E. | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Orme, Stanley | Weitzman, David |
| Jones, Rt.Hn.SirElwyn(W.Ham,S.) | Oswald, Thomas | Wellbeloved, James |
| Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) | whitaker, Ben |
| Judd, Frank | Owen, Will (Morpeth) | White, Mrs. Eirene |
| Kelley, Richard | Paget, R. T. | Whitlock, William |
| Kenyon, Clifford | Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Lawson, George | Park, Trevor | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Parker, John (Dagenham) | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Ledger, Ron | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Pavitt, Laurence | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Lee, John (Reading) | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) | Winnick, David |
| Lestor, Miss Joan | Pentland, Norman | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Lever, Harold (cheetham) | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) | woof, Robert |
| Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) | Wyatt, Woodrow |
| Lew's, Ron (Carlisle) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. | Yates, Victor |
| Lipton, Marcus | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) | |
| Loughlin, Charles | Price, William (Rugby) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Probert, Arthur | Mr. John McCann and Mr. J. D. Concannon. |
| Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Pursey, Cmdr. Harry | |
| McBride, Neil | Rankin, John | |
| NOES | ||
| Alison, Michael (Bariston Ash) | Body, Richard | Clark, Henry |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Bossom, Sir Clive | Clegg, Walter |
| Astor, John | Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Cooke, Robert |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Corfield, F. V. |
| Awdry, Daniel | Braine, Bernard | Costain, A. P. |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Brewis, John | Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Brinton, Sir Tatton | Crouch, David |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.SirWalter | Crowder, F. P. |
| Batsford, Brian | Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Cunningham, Sir Knox |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Currie, C. B. H. |
| Bell, Ronald | Bryan, Paul | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Buchanan-Smith,Alick(Angus,N&M) | Dance, James |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) | Buck, Antony (Colchester) | Davidson, James(Abertleenshire,W.) |
| Berry, Hn. Antnony | Bullus, Sir Eric | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry |
| Bessell, Peter | Burden, F. A. | Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) |
| Biffen, John | Campbell, Gordon | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Carlisle, Mark | Digby, Simon Wingfield |
| Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel | Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Dodds-Parker, Douglas |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Cary, Sir Robert | Doughty, Charles |
| Blaker, Peter | Channon, H. P. G. | Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Chichester-Clark, R. | Drayson, G. B. |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Lambton, Viscount | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Eden, Sir John | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Lane, David | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Elliott,R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Emery, Peter | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Royle, Anthony |
| Farr, John | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Ceoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield) | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Fisher, Nigel | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Longden, Gilbert | Sandys, Rt. Hn. D. |
| Fortescue, Tim | Lubbock, Eric | Scott, Nicholas |
| Foster, Sir John | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh (St'fford & Stone) | MacArthur, Ian | Sharpies, Richard |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Mackenzie, Alasdair(Ross& Crom'ty) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy | Silvester, Frederick |
| Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan | Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | McMaster, Stanley | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Glyn, Sir Richard | Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) | Smith, John (London & W'minster) |
| Goodhart, Philip | Maddan, Martin | Speed, Keith |
| Gower, Raymond | Maginnis, John E. | Stainton, Keith |
| Grant, Anthony | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Grant-Ferris, R. | Marten, Neil | Stodart, Anthony |
| Gresham Cooke, R. | Maude, Angus | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) |
| Grieve, Percy | Mawby, Ray | Tapsell, Peter |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Gurden, Harold | Miscampbell, Norman | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Teeling, Sir William |
| Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Monro, Hector | Temple, John M. |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Montgomery, Fergus | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Harris, Frederic (Croycton, N.W.) | More, Jasper | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Tilney, John |
| Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Harvie Anderson, Miss | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Van straubenzee, W. R. |
| Hawkins, Paul | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| Heseltine, Michael | Murton, Oscar | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Higgins, Terence L, | Neave, Airey | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Hill, J. E. B. | Nlcholls, Sir Harmar. | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sr Derek |
| Holland, Philip | Nott, John | Wall, Patrick |
| Hordern, Peter | Onslow, Cranley | Walters, Dennis |
| Hornby, Richard | Orr, Capt. L, P. S. | Webster, David |
| Howell, David (Guildford) | Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Hunt, John | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Iremonger, T. L. | Pardoe, John | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Peel, John | Winstanley, Dr. M. p. |
| Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Peyton, John | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | Pink, R. Bonner | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Kaberry, Sir Donald | Pounder, Rafton | Worsiey, Marcus |
| Kerby, Capt. Henry | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Wright, Esmond |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Wylie, N. R. |
| Kimball, Marcus | Pym, Francis | Younger, Hn. George |
| King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Quennell, Miss J. M. | |
| Kirk, Peter | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Kitson, Timothy | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Mr. Reginald Eyre and Mr. Bernard Weatherill. |
§ 11.30 a.m.
§ Mr. SwinglerI beg to move Amendment No. 54, in page 15, line 27, leave out paragraph (ix) and insert:
(ix) where an undertaking has been—
- (a)transferred to the Executive under subsection (1) of section 17 of this Act; or
- (b)wholly or partly resumed by the Executive under subsection (2)(a) of the said section 17; or
- (c)acquired by the Executive otherwise than under the said section 17,
- to carry on (but, in a case falling within sub-paragraph (c) of this paragraph, only with the approval of the Authority) any activities which the Executive would not otherwise have power to carry on but which were carried on by that undertaking immediately before the date of that transfer, the date of the disposal which gave rise to that resumption, or the date of that acquisition, as the case may be;
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerWith this Amendment, we are discussing Amendment No. 55, in page 15, line 27, after ' transferred', insert ' from a local authority'.
§ Mr. SwinglerMembers of the Standing Committee will recall the rather long argument that we had about whether the Executive should be allowed to carry on certain activities which were not relevant to its main activities and purposes, but were part of an undertaking transferred to the Executive under the provisions of the Bill. A great deal of the argument centred on the meaning of the word "transferred" and on which undertakings were covered by the Clause. The Amendment is intended to remove any 1473 doubt about the meaning of the Clause. It makes clear the distinction between transferred undertakings and acquired undertakings. It was argued in Committee that acquired undertakings could be included in the word "transferred".
The aim of hon. Gentlemen opposite, in Committee, was to secure that, where a Passenger Transport Executive acquired an undertaking, it should not have power to carry on the activity in which the undertaking was engaged if it was not one which the Executive was empowered to carry on, except for the purpose of selling or winding up that part of the undertaking carrying on the supplementary activity.
Where a municipally-owned undertaking is transferred to a P.T.E., it may include certain activities not considered essential to the provision of transport and matters of that kind. Nevertheless, these activities would be carried on by the P.T.E. Making the distinction between transferred and acquired undertakings, the Amendment provides that a Passenger Transport Executive must obtain the approval of the Authority for continuing to carry on any supplementary activity already carried on by an undertaking which it has acquired, either voluntarily or in any other way.
I have no doubt that this will incur a certain amount of criticism from hon. Gentlemen opposite, but what we are doing here is putting the P.T.E.s on all fours with other transport undertakings, such as the National Bus Company, the National Freight Corporation and the Scottish Transport Group, except that they have to have the approval of the Minister of Transport, whereas it is obviously better that a Passenger Transport Executive should have the approval of the Authority, mainly composed of local government representatives, for carrying on these supplementary activities.
The second point is that in Clause 16 there are safeguards against unfair competition. Thirdly, an undertaking taken over must comprise assets required for the Executive's main business, so it must be mainly a transport business. In other words, the other activity, whatever it may be, must be a minor part of the undertaking. The fourth point is that the Executive is empowered only to carry on the activity. It is not empowered to extend it. In other words, it acquires an 1474 undertaking mainly composed for transport purposes. If that undertaking happens to have developed some other supplementary activities, the Executive may carry on those supplementary activities with the approval of the P.T.A. That does not mean that it is entitled to try to build up trading empires.
The safeguard is quite clear. It is provided in the Statute that the approval of the Authority is necessary in all cases of acquired undertakings. Notwithstanding the criticism expressed in Committee, I hope that the House will approve of this sensible, clarifying provision.
§ Mr. Michael HeseltineNow I have heard everything. That is the most remarkable volte face that any Minister has ever been expected to address to this House. The hon. Gentleman's argument on the last point is, "Do not worry. A few examples of private enterprise fall into the hands of the municipal authorities by mistake. This is an incidental to the major acquisition, because those small acquisitions will not be permitted to be extended, year in year out." He is saying that these small trading activities will be maintained at precisely the same level of commercial size as when they were taken over.
Of all the commercial nonsense I have ever heard from a Minister, this is the worst. The idea that we can employ men and assets in a static position for ever is preposterous, and it is ludicrous for the Minister to try to sell us that idea. It is even more preposterous that he should try to sell us this Amendment.
This Amendment came into being as a result of an accidental revelation, brought to the attention of the Committee by me, because the purpose of the original drafting was to give municipal authorities, through the aegis of the passenger transport authorities, the power, if they took over an incidental operation by transfer from the local authorities, to conduct that operation. I pointed out that under another provision of the Bill, passenger transport authorities could acquire outside companies and that the assets of those companies would be transferred.
I said that this meant that the P.T.A.s would be able to conduct a limitless range of activities, quite dissociated from their main business as transport operators. This point took us hours to get across. It took hours for the Minister even to 1475 understand the words we were using. So that hon. Members should not think I am exaggerating, I will quote from the Standing Committee Report when I revealed this possibility and the Minister's reply. He said:
I am sure that the hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine) is magnificent in making the flesh creep in Tavistock, but in this Committee we have to pay some attention to accuracy and in particular to what is in the Bill.Later, he repeated and clarified the point. He said:It is to do … with things which were in municipal enterprises and which have been started by December of last year. It is limited to that extent. That is the explanation which I give to the Standing Committee on this part of the Clause. It does not raise any question of the Executive being given sweeping powers to go widely into all sorts of activities."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee F, 14th February, 1968; c. 667–70.]That was what the Minister said, and was Government policy when we discussed this in Committee. Now this Amendment is the precise reverse of what the Minister was saying Government policy was. It spells out that not only are there to be transfers of assets from local authorities, but that, where assets are transferred, as a result of acquisition, the local authorities are permitted to go on conducting those operations regardless. There is no assurance of a transport necessity. The Minister of State said that there were safeguards, and that there would be nothing to worry about because the authorities would not be able to acquire those assets in the first place unless they were assets wholly for the purpose of their business.11.45 a.m.
The wording of the legislation is not quite as was presented. It says that passenger transport authorities can acquire "by agreement" any undertaking, or part of an undertaking if the assets comprised in the undertaking or part are "wholly or mainly" assets which the executive requires for the purposes of their business. First, it is the executive which decides if the assets are required, and, second, there is cause for concern about the use of the words "wholly or mainly". What will happen is that one will buy bus companies, a majority of whose assets are totally concerned with transport undertakings, but a small part of their assets will, in some way, be de- 1476 volved in businesses in no way associated with transport. The Minister of State said clearly in Committee that they would not be empowered to do that, but this Amendment gives them this power. He can dress it up in any way he chooses, but it is a major departure from the policy of the Government as stated in Committee.
This change confirms the worst suspicions of the motives behind this legislation. I can understand hon. Members opposite saying that they want this power to be given to the P.T.A.s—this is a doctrinal difference between the two sides. I accept their sincere right to have those views. What I do question is the situation where legislation is so drafted that those who are responsible for steering it through the House do not understand what it is about, are prepared, throughout the night in Committee to state clearly that it means one thing, using up valuable time, as a result of which 50 Clauses were never discussed, and then come to the House and change their mind and try to tell us that it is a matter of no consequence.
It is a monstrous decision by the Government and I am delighted by one thing only—that it is the Minister who has to come to the House and make quite clear that this change has taken place. I daresay that the Government will use their majority to steamroller this through, but I hope that it lies heavy on their consciences for having treated the House in this monstrous way.
§ Mr. Leslie HuckfieldIn all the sittings of the Committee, and of the House as a whole on the Bill, I have heard only one speech containing more preposterous nonsense than that which we have just heard, and that was the speech made by the hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Michael Heseltine) in Committee. This was the kind of Clause under which, we were told, P.T.A.s would operate oil refineries market gardens—
§ Mr. Michael Heseltine rose—
§ Mr. HuckfieldI prefer to make my own speech.
§ Mr. HeseltineOn a point of order. I have no wish to prevent the hon. Member from attacking me, but when he is deliberately misquoting me I would ask him to be good enough to 1477 quote the passages where I am supposed to have said these things.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving)That is not a point of order. It is up to the hon. Gentleman to decide whether to give way.
§ Mr. HuckfieldI will just imagine, for the sake of argument, that the hon. Gentleman's argument point had some substance, and I would tell him that he can look anywhere in the proceedings of Standing Committee F and he will find these repeated references.
§ Mr. Michael HeseltineWhere?
§ Mr. HuckfieldThe hon. Gentleman spoke about setting up oil refineries and I was glad of this, since he said that I would get one in my constituency. I am surprised to find that when hon. Gentlemen in Committee have been arguing in favour of more safeguards, they should argue against this Amendment, which provides just that. A more continuous state of inconsistency I have yet to see.
We can see why the hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot support that Amendment. They are arguing along the same old lines, about putting something restrictive on the authorities. They want to be quite sure that, in the wide range of operations included under the heading of public passenger transport, private enterprise still has the cream. As long as that is the case they can turn round and say, "We told you so, passenger transport authorities will make a loss."
I support this Amendment, and would sincerely urge the hon. Member for Tavistock to read what he has said in Committee and ask him not to talk such preposterous nonsense.
§ Mr. Eldon Griffiths (Bury St. Edmunds)I shall be very brief, first, because I know that my right hon. and hon. Friends wish to make progress, and second, because, as a member of the Standing Committee considering the Race Relations Bill, I am supposed to be upstairs. I rise because I have a matter that concerns my constituency and because I am provoked by the Minister's reply to my hon. Friend.
In the event of one of the executives taking over an existing transport business that happens on the side to be running an amusement park with dodgems, does 1478 the Minister's statement that they may not extend their activities mean that if dodgems go out of fashion, they may not go in for motor boats? That is the kind of question he must answer if he says that authorities, once taken over, will not be able to extend their activities—[An HON. MEMBER: "Read the Bill."] The hon. Gentleman says, "Read the Bill". I have read it. I am also engaged in the Standing Committee which is considering the Race Relations Bill, and one of the difficulties for which the Government are responsible is that hon. Members are required to come here without having been able to do all the work they would wish to do on behalf of their constituents.
It is the Minister's duty to answer the question, and mine to ask it. When he says that executives will not be allowed to extend their activities, will they be asked to make the decision not to seek a profit, not to run those activities in a commercial fashion, because of the undertaking he has given the House? My view is clear. They should hive off all these incidental activities at once, and should not take them over. I do not wish to see public money squandered in the way the Minister described this morning.
§ Mr. SwinglerIf they take over a transport undertaking that is carrying on such an activity with the approval of the passenger transport executive, composed as it is mainly of local authority representatives, they may continue to carry on the supplementary activity. Under other parts of the Bill the executives have powers of acquisition and disposal of property in particular respects, but they are not entitled to go into a business extraneous to the main purposes of their business as a transport undertaking.
§ Mr. Eric Lubbock (Orpington)The Minister says that they cannot go into a business which is extraneous, but who is to make this judgment? Under paragraph (x) the executive has power to provide for the persons using the services and facilities provided by it
… such other amenities or facilities as it may appear to the Executive requisite or expedient to provide;To take the example of the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths), it might seem that dodgems are a very good attraction for people using its transport services because its, 1479 buses are always late. It might say, "It is expedient for us to have dodgems to amuse passengers while they are waiting for the buses to arrive." Such an argument can justify the provision of almost anything in relation to the main services—[AN HON. MEMBER: "Oh."] The hon. Gentleman says, "Oh". What is the matter with this argument? If he will read—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I am required to put the outstanding Govern-
§ ment Amendments by the time-table Motion.
§ The Proceedings on consideration of the Bill having continued for four and a half hours after Ten o'clock on Monday evening, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER proceeded pursuant to Order, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made: —
§ The House divided: Ayes 278, Noes 229.
1481| Division No. 180.] | AYES | [11.54 a.m. |
| Albu, Austen | Dolg, Peter | Hunter, Adam |
| Alldritt, Walter | Dunn, James A. | Hynd, John |
| Allen, Scholefield | Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) |
| Anderson, Donald | Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) |
| Archer, Peter | Eadle, Alex | Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Janner, Sir Barnett |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Ellis, John | Jeger, George (Coole) |
| Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice | English, Michael | Jeger,Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St.P'cras,S.) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Ennals, David | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) |
| Barnes, Michael | Ensor, David | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) |
| Barnett, Joel | Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Vardley) | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull W.) |
| Baxter, William | Fernyhough, E. | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Bence, Cyril | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.) |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Judd, Frank |
| Bidweli, Sydney | Foley, Maurice | Kelley, Richard |
| Binns, John | Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich) | Kenyon, Clifford |
| Bishop, E. S. | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Lawson, George |
| Blackburn, F. | Ford, Ben | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Forrester, John | Ledger Ron |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Fowler, Gerry | Lee, Rt. Hn. Fredrick (Newton) |
| Booth, Albert | Fraser, John (Norwood) | Lee, John (Reading) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur | Freeson, Reginald | Lestor, Miss Joan |
| Boyden, James | Galpern, Sir Myer | Lever, Harlod (Cheetham) |
| Barddock, Mrs. E. M. | Gardner, Tony | Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.) |
| Bradely, Tom | Garrett, W. E. | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Bray, Dr. Jermey | Ginsburg, David | Lipton, Marcus |
| Brooks, Edwin | Gourlay, Harry | Lipton, Marcus |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Lomas, Kemmeth |
| Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Loughlin, charles |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Gregory, Arnold | Laurd. Evan |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Grey, Charles (Durham) | Lyon, Alexander W.(York) |
| Buchan, Norman | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn) | Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Lanelly) | McBridge, Neil |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | McCann, John |
| Cant, R. B. | Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. | MacColl, James |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | MacDermot, Niall |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Macdonald, A. H. |
| Chapman, Donald | Hamling, William | McKay, Mrs. Margaret |
| Coe, Denis | Hannan, William | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) |
| Coleman, Donald | Harper, Joseph | Mackie, John |
| Conlan, Bernard | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Corbet Mrs Freda | Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith | Macleman, Robert |
| Craddock, George (Bradford S.) | Haseldine, Norman | MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Hattersley, Roy | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Hazell, Bert | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard | Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis | MacPherson, Malcolm |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Heffer, Eric S. | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) |
| Dalyell Tarn | Henig, Stanley | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town) | Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.) |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Hooley, Frank | Manuel, Archie |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Marks, Kenneth |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) | Marquand, David |
| de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Delargy Hugh | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy |
| Dell, Edmund | Howie, W. | Mendelson, J. J. |
| Dempsey, James | Huckfield, Leslie | Mikardo, Ian |
| Dewar, Donald | Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Millan, Bruce |
| Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Dickens, James | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Mime, Edward (Blyth) |
| Dobson, Ray | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test) |
| Molloy, William | Rees, Merlyn | Taverne, Dick |
| Moonman, Eric | Reynolds, G. W. | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George |
| Moyle, Roland | Rhodes, Geoffrey | Thomson, Rt. Hn. George |
| Murray, Alhert | Richard, Ivor | Thornton, Ernest |
| Neal, Harold | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Tinn, James |
| Newerts, Stan | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Norwood, Christopher | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) | Varley, Eric G. |
| Oakes, Gordon | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Ogden, Eric | Robinson, Rt. Hn.Kenneth(St.P'c'as) | Walden, Brian (All Saints) |
| O'Malley, Brian | Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Oram, Albert E. | Rodgers, William (Stockton) | Wallace, George |
| Orme, Stanley | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Oswald, Thomas | Rose, Paul | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William | Weitzman, David |
| Owen, Will (Morpeth) | Ryan, John | Wellbeloved, James |
| Paget, R. T | Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.) | Whitaker, Ben |
| Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles | Sheldon, Robert | White, Mrs. Eirene |
| Park, Trevor | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) | Whitlock, William |
| Parker, John (Dagenham) | Short, Rt. Hn. Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne) | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch) |
| Pavitt, Laurence | Skeffington, Arthur | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Pearson, Arlhur (Pontypridd) | Slater, Joseph | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred | Small, William | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Pentland, Norman | Snow, Julian | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) | Spriggs, Leslie | Winnick, David |
| Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) | Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. | Stonehouse, John | Woof, Robert |
| Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. | Wyatt, Woodrow |
| Price, William (Rugby) | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley | Yates, Victor |
| Probert, Arthur | Swain, Thomas | |
| Pursey, Cmdr. Harry | Swingler, Stephen | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Rankin, John | Symonds, J. B. | Mr. Charles R. Morris and Mr. J. D. Concannon. |
| NOES | ||
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Crowder, F. P. | Hawkins, Paul |
| Allaison, James (Hemet Hempstead) | Cunningham, Sir Knox | Hay, John |
| Astor, John | Currle, G. B. H. | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Dalfceltti, Earl of | Heseltine, Michael |
| Awdry, Daniel | Dance, James | Higgins, Terence L. |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Davidson, James(Aberdeenshire, W.) | Hill, J. E. B. |
| Baiter, W. H. K. (Banff) | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | Holland, Philip |
| Batsford, Brian | Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Hooson, Emlyn |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tutton | Digby, Simon Wingfield | Hordern, Peter |
| Bell, Ronald | Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Homby, Richard |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Doughty, Charles | Howell, David (Guildford) |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) | Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Aleo | Hunt, John |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Drayson, G. B. | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Bessell, Peter | du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Iremonger, T. L. |
| Biffen, John | Eden, Sir John | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) |
| Biggs-Davtson, John | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) |
| Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel | Elliott, R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Emery, Peter | Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) |
| Blaker, Peter | Errington, Sir Eric | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Eyre, Reginald | Kaberry, Sir Donald |
| Body, Richard | Farr, John | Kerby, Capt. Henry |
| Bossom, Sir Clive | Fisher, Nigel | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Kimball, Marcus |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Fortescue, Tim | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) |
| Braine, Bernard | Foster, Sir John | Kirk, Peter |
| Brewis, John | Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'ford & Stone) | Lambton, Viscount |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Lancaster, Col. C. G. |
| Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.SirWalter | Gibson-Watt, David | Lane, David |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Giles, Rear-Adm. Morgan | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Bryan, Paul | Glyn, Sir Richard | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N & M) | Goodhart, Philip | Longden, Gilbert |
| Buck, Antony (Colchester) | Gower, Raymond | Lubbock, Eric |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Grant, Anthony | McAdden, Sir Stephen |
| Burden, F. A. | Grant-Ferris, R. | MacArthur, Ian |
| Campbell, Gordon | Gresham cooke, R. | Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) |
| Carlisle, Mark | Grieve, Percy | Maclean, Sir Fitzroy |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunde) | Madeod, Rt. Hn. lain |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Grimond, Rt. Hn, J, | McMaster, Stanley |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Gurden, Harold | Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham) |
| Clark, Henry | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Maddan, Martin |
| Clegg, Walter | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Magiimis, John E. |
| Cooke, Robert | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest |
| Corfield, F. V. | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | Marten, Neil |
| Costain, A. P. | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Maude, Angus |
| Craddock, sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere | Mawby, Ray |
| Crouch, David | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. |
| Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Quennell, Miss J. M. | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Rencon, Rt. Hn. Sir David | Tilney, John |
| Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Monro, Hector | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas | van Straubenzee, W. B. |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Ridsdale, Julian | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| More, Jasper | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Morgan, Ceraint (Denbigh) | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Royle, Anthony | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Russell, Sir Ronald | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek |
| Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | St. John-Stevas, Norman | Wail, Patrick |
| Murton, Oscar | Sandys, Rt. Hn. D. | Walters, Dennis |
| Neave, Airey | Scott, Nicholas | Webster, David |
| Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Scott-Hopkins, James | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Sharples, Richard | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Nott, John | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Onslow, Cranley | Sinclair, Sir George | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian | Smith, John (London & W'minster) | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Page, Graham (Crosby) | Speed, Keith | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Page, John (Harrow, W.) | Stainton, Keith | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Pardoe, John | Steel, David (Roxburgh) | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Pearson, Sir Frank (Clithero) | Stodart, Anthony | Worsley, Marcus |
| Peel, John | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) | Wright, Esmond |
| Peyton, John | Tapsell, Peter | Wylie, N. R. |
| Pike, Miss Mervyn | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) | Younger, Hn. George |
| Pink, R. Bonner | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) | |
| Pounder, Rafton | Taylor, Frank (Moss Side) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch | Teeling, Sir William | Mr. Timothy Kitson and Mr. Bernard Weatherill. |
| Price, David (Eastleigh) | Temple, John M. | |
| Pym, Francis | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
§ Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER then proceeded, pursuant to Order, to put forthwith the Questions on the Amendments, moved by a member of the Government, of which notice had been given, to that part of the Bill to be concluded at that time.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerIf it suits the convenience of the House, I propose to put the outstanding Government Amendments up to but excluding No. 86 in one Question. I understand that it may be the wish of the House to divide on No. 86.
§
Amendment made: No. 62, in page 18, line 1, at beginning insert:
' subject, in the case of a disposal of land, to the approval of the Authority.'—[Mr. Swingler.]