§ DETERMINATION OF APPEALS BY THE MINISTER.
§ Mr. SkeffingtonI beg to move Amendment No. 43, in page 17, line 45 leave out from 'had' to end of line 4 on page 18 and insert:
'not been asked in pursuance of section 17(6) above whether they wished to appear before and be heard by a person appointed to hear the appeal, or had been asked that question and had expressed no wish in answer thereto, or had expressed a wish to appear and be heard as aforesaid, but had not been afforded an opportunity of doing so'.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerWith this Amendment we can discuss Amendments No. 39, in page 17, line 15 at end insert:
(8) A person appointed under this section shall in relation to an appeal which falls to be determined by him thereunder ask the applicant or appellant, as the case may require, and the local planning authority before the appeal has been determined whether they wish the appeal to be determined by the Minister, and if either of them so wish the appeal shall be determined by the Minister and not by that person.Amendment No. 40, in page 17, line 24 leave out from 'appeal' to end of line 27 and insert:'whether such representations be made to the authority or to the Minister or to the person appointed by the Minister'.Amendment No. 41, in page 17, line 28 after 'section', insert:'or of a request under subsection (8) of the preceding section'.Amendment No. 42, in page 17, line 39:leave out from 'purpose' to end of line 4 on page 18.
§ Mr. Graham PageAre any of the Amendments selected for a Division if desired?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI am afraid not. Mr. Speaker has not selected them for Division.
§ Mr. SkeffingtonThe Amendment makes good a weakness in the provision made for affording hearings to the parties to an appeal which has been recovered from an inspector for determination by the Minister.
In Committee hon. Members drew attention to certain matters which it was feared were not adequately covered in 698 the Clause as drafted. The Amendment places on the Minister the obligation to grant a fresh hearing in certain cases which were not covered before and where it may be essential to have a fresh hearing. These are cases where the reason for the direction recovering the jurisdiction raises matters on which neither of the parties to the matter had previously made representations. This may be because of some of the consequences to which I referred in an earlier Amendment. It may be that there is some factor involving other Ministries. It may be that there is an Article 9 direction or something of that kind. If neither of the parties knew about the circumstances, they ought not to be prejudiced by the matter being independently considered. The Amendment provides for that.
It is also right that where the parties have not been asked whether they wish to be heard, an opportunity should be provided. Alternatively, it may be that they have been asked but have not replied, or it may be that they have asked to be heard, but that a hearing has not yet taken place. In all those circumstances, one wants to be sure that a hearing is available.
Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite are interested in Amendment No. 42. However, we feel that there is no purpose in going as far as that suggests. If the parties say that they do not wish to be heard by the inspector and agree to abide by written representations, given that assurance, there is no need to provide for a fresh hearing, and there is no reason why, because there is to be a determination by the Minister, there should be a second request to them. It seems unnecessary. Again, if the matter has been fully argued before the inspector but proves unexpectedly difficult and is recovered, all of it having been argued, there is no need to reopen it.
There is no doubt that the original drafting did not provide with certainty for the three categories that I have mentioned, and I hope that the Amendment will be accepted.
§ Mr. AllasonThis is the most clumsy Amendment conceivable. It is a perfect example of the sort of wretched drafting that we have come to expect from the Government. It falls into a number of parts. First, it says that the Minister will 699 appoint an inspector to hear the appeal if the applicant or the appellant or the local planning authority (a) had not been asked if they wished to appear, or (b) had been asked and (i) expressed no wish or (ii) expressed the wish but had not been heard.
That leaves us with one remaining alternative, which is that the applicant or the appellant or the local planning authority had not had any opportunity of appearing. In that case, why make everyone wade through a series of alternatives?
My redrafting is not in Parliamentary language, but it is much more simple. It says that if the applicant or the appellant or the local planning authority wishes, in pursuance of Section 17 (6) above, to be heard but has not already been afforded an opportunity of doing so, and so on.
If that is the meaning, well and good. But would it not be better to put it that way? The chances are that I have the Amendment upside down and that this is not the intention at all. In which case, the Government have, as they frequently do, produced a piece of gibberish which cannot be understood except by taking counsel's opinion, which I resent having to do because I like to be able to read an Act and understand what it means. Can we have a further explanation?
§ Sir J. FosterI also speak diffidently about the effect of Amendment No. 42. I understood the hon. Gentleman to say that he did not think it necessary, if there had been argument before the person appointed by the Minister and then the case was determined by the Minister, for all the arguments to be gone through again. But surely that is the very sort of case in which the parties might want to be heard verbally because, under Clause 18(2), the reasons which are given and served on a person to account for the determination of the appeal by the Minister may be reasons which have not been argued at all.
As I say, I speak with diffidence on this obscure provision, but if I am right this is a strong reason for requiring personal appearance again if the parties so wish. Yet I understood the hon. Gentleman to say that this was unnecessary.
§ Mr. SkeffingtonIf we had put this provision in negative form, no doubt the Opposition would have asked for it to be in a positive form, which is precisely what the Clause does. Whichever way the Government do it, they are wrong, apparently. We are providing for a positive duty.
The hon. and learned Member for Northwich (Sir J. Foster) asked about a case where the matter has already been argued and then some unexpected factor arises. He said that there should be a re-hearing. But the Minister will have discretion to take this course. If there is any new matter which affects the position of the parties, there can be a rehearing. The position is fully safeguarded.
The other case to which I referred is that in which both parties have agreed to written representations and have made them. There is no automatic ground for a rehearing in this case but the Minister has discretion to hold one if there is some new factor.
§ Sir J. FosterI do not regard the discretion of a Minister as any safeguard. One knows how bureaucracy works. It might well be that the Minister will be advised not to use his discretion. It is not a good safeguard. Surely hon. Members opposite who stand for the liberty of the subject will want a safeguard where there is a genuine reason for referring a case back to the Minister and will feel frustrated if, when they question the Minister he says, "In the exercise of my discretion I do not think you need come and argue before me".
§ Mr. MacDermotThe hon. and learned Gentleman has overlooked the Council on Tribunals. If new matter were produced in a case and no opportunity were given to the parties to give it, the rules would be broken and we would be in trouble with the Council. I think that the hon. Gentleman is on weak ground.
§ Mr. Graham PageWe are talking about whether people who make representations to the Minister about a subject which he has seen fit to call in from an inspector in order to deal with himself shall know why he has given that direction and shall be given an opportunity of a hearing. The Amendments I want to refer 701 to are Amendments No. 40, No. 42 and No. 43. Amendment No. 40 provides for those who have made representations to the Minister, to the local planning authority or to the man appointed by the Minister originally to hear the appeal, shall know why the Minister has called it in so that they can refresh their representations.
12.15 a.m.
I imagine this will be the case where the Minister, having originally intended that it should be heard and decided by an inspector, finds that some political point blows up, Parliamentary Questions are asked, and the Minister feels that he ought to take it away and deal with it himself. Therefore he will be considering a fresh aspect and those concerned ought to be told why he has made that direction.
All the Clause does at the moment is to say that the Minister must tell the owner of the property if he is not the appellant, or agricultural tenants if they are there. Then we come to the question
§ whether those who make representations to the Minister shall have an opportunity of being heard by him. Again, the Clause restricts that only to a few people, the owner who is not the appellant and the agricultural tenants. If they have had an opportunity before they are going to be heard again, and so on.
§ I cannot understand Amendment No. 43. I do not think anyone could understand it. It is a mass of words and I do not think we ought to allow that to go into the Bill, firstly, because we cannot understand it, and secondly, because it does not afford an opportunity for those who will be concerned in a hearing of this sort by the Minister to know why he has given the direction, or to have the opportunity of being heard by the Minister.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made: —
§ The House divided: Ayes 153, Noes 105.
703| Division No. 159.] | AYES | [12.20 a.m. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardtey) | MacColl, James |
| Archer, Peter | Faulds, Andrew | MacDermot, Niall |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Macdonald, A. H. |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McGuire, Michael |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Mackenzie, Gregor (Ruthergten) |
| Bagier, Gordon A, T. | Ford, Ben | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Barnett, Joel | Forrester, John | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Beaney, Alan | Freeson, Reginald | MacPherson, Malcolm |
| Bence, Cyril | Gardner, Tony | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) |
| Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood | Garrett, W. E. | Mapp, Charles |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Gourlay, Harry | Marks, Kenneth |
| Blackburn, F. | Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Marquand, David |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Gregory, Arnold | Mendelson, J. J. |
| Booth, Albert | Crey, Charles (Durham) | Millan, Bruce |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Milker, Dr. M. S. |
| Brooks, Edwin | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Milne, Edward (Blyth) |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) |
| Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | Hamling, William | Moyle, Roland |
| Brown, Hugh D. (C'gow, Provan) | Hannan, William | Murray, Albert |
| Brown,Bob(N c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.) | Harper, Joseph | Newens, Stan |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Ogden, Eric |
| Buchan, Norman | Haseldine, Norman | O'Malley, Brian |
| Chapman. Donald | Hazall, Bert | Orbach, Maurice |
| Coe, Denis | Heffer, Eric S. | Orme, Stanley |
| Coleman, Donald | Heffer, Eric S. | Oswald, Thomas |
| Concannon, J. D. | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Owtn, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn) |
| Dalell, Tam | Hoy, James | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Hughes, Emrys (Aryshire, S.) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Davidson,James(Aberdeenshire,W.) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Hunter, Adam | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Dimpsey, James | Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenfe'gh) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred |
| Dewar, Donald | Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Pentland, Norman |
| Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Janner, Sir Barnett | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Dickens, James | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. |
| Doig, Peter | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Dunnett, Jack | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Rees, Merlyn |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Cwynrth (Exeter) | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Reynolds, G. W. |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Lawson, George | Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) |
| Eadie, Alex | Leadbitter, Ted | Rose, Paul |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Lee, John (Reading) | Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.) |
| Ellis, John | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Sheldon, Robert |
| English, Michael | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Ennals, David | Lubbock, Eric | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Skeffington, Arthur | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Slater, Joseph | Walden, Brian (All Saints) | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Small, William | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Steel, David (Roxburgh) | Wallace, George | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Stone house, John | Watkins, David (Consett) | Woof, Robert |
| Taverne, Dick | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) | Yates, Victor |
| Tinn, James | Wellbeloved, James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Urwin, T. W. | Whitaker, Ben | Mr. Neil McBride and |
| Varley, Eric G. | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) | Mr. Alan Fitch. |
| NOES | ||
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Grant-Ferris, R. | Percival, Ian |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Gresham Cooke, R. | Peyton, John |
| Astor, John | Grieve, Percy | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Awdry, Daniel | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds) | Pounder, Rafton |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh) | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm) | Hawkins, Paul | Pym, Francis |
| Black Sir Cyril | Higgins, Terence L. | Quennell, Miss J. M. |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Hiley, Joseph | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward | Hill, J. E. B. | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Holland, Philip | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Hordern, Peter | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Buchanan-Smith,Alick(Angus,N & M) | Hunt, John | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Iremonger, T. L. | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whltby) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Silvester, Frederick |
| Clegg, Walter | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Cooke, Robert | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Corfield, F. V. | Kirk, Peter | Smith, John (London & W'minster) |
| Daiketh Earl of | Kitson, Timothy | Speed, Keith |
| Dance, James | Lane, David | Stainton, Keith |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Langford-Holt, SirJohn | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Digby, Simon Wingfield | MacArthur, Ian | Temple, John M. |
| Doughty Charles | Maddan, Martin | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edwartl | Maginnis, John E. | Wall, Patrick |
| Eden, Sir John | Maxwell-Hysiop, R. J. | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Elliott, R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Webster, David |
| Eyre, Reginald | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Farr, John | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Miscampbell, Norman | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Fortescue, Tim | Molloy, William | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Foster, Sir John | Montgomery, Fergus | Worsley, Marcus |
| Gibson-Watt, David | More, Jasper | Wright, Esmond |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.) | Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh) | Wylie, N. R. |
| Goodhew, Victor | Murton, Oscar | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Gower, Raymond | Nott, John | Mr. Anthony Royle and Mr. Humphrey Atkins. |
| Grant, Anthony | Page, Graham (Crosby) |