§ DUTY TO MAINTAIN STILES, ETC. ON FOOTPATHS AND BRIDLEWAYS
§
Lords Amendment No. 27: In page 26, line 29, after "contributions" insert
of such amount in each case as they shall, having regard to all the circumstances, consider reasonable ".
§ Mr. MacDermotI beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
Would it be convenient, Mr. Speaker, to move the Amendment in lieu of the Amendment at this time?
§ Mr. SpeakerI am guided by the House. We can discuss with the Motion already moved the hon. and learned Gentleman's Amendment in lieu of it and the Amendment to the Amendment in the name of the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon).
§ Mr. ChannonIf that were to be the proposed arrangement, would there be an opportunity for us to vote on our Amendment to the Government Amendment in lieu of the Lords Amendment?
§ Mr. SpeakerYes. First, does the hon. Member want a Division on the Motion to disagree?
§ Mr. ChannonI have no wish to divide on the Motion to disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment; the only matter in respect of which we may wish to divide is on our Amendment to the Government Amendment in lieu of the Lords Amendment.
§ Mr. SpeakerFirst, we had better get out of the way the Motion, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
§ Mr. MacDermotThe reason for my Motion is a drafting one. This Lords Amendment is now overtaken by the Government Amendment which proposes to substitute a new subsection (3) in place of the present subsections (3) and (4).
I hope that the House will agree that whatever we decide about the Opposition Amendment to the Government Amendment it is an improvement on the existing subsections (3) and (4). It makes much clearer the solution that we want to achieve, namely, that a highway authority 176 shall be bound to contribute a certain proportion—we propose one-quarter—of any expenses which are shown to its satisfaction to have been reasonably incurred. Secondly, it provides that it shall have power to make further contributions to such amount as in each case it shall consider to be reasonable, having regard to all the circumstances. The Amendment in lieu of the Lords Amendment makes that abundantly clear.
The House will remember that we discussed this matter at length on Report, when I suggested that there were two possible solutions, either of which would be acceptable to the Government in principle. The first was to have a fixed percentage—50 per cent.—and the other to have a minimum percentage of 25 per cent., with a discretion to the local authority to go higher, up to 100 per cent.
I recommended the second solution, and that is the one I still recommend. There are occasions when local authorities make a 100 per cent. contribution and it is desirable that they should be able to continue to do so where they think it is proper. I can envisage cases in which it will be proper to make a 100 per cent. contribution—for example, where a recently erected stile had been knocked down by a flagrant act of vandalism and there was no reason to expect the farmer to pay for a replacement. If there is to be this discretion, we should not fix the minimum contribution as high as 50 per cent. We remain of the view that, in these circumstances, if the right solution is flexibility, as I believe, the minimum should be a quarter, leaving the authority free to pay more if it thinks it right.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Mr. MacDermotI beg to move, in lieu of the Lords Amendment last disagreed to, Amendment No. 6, in page 26, line 28, leave out subsections (3) and (4) and insert:
(3) The highway authority shall contribute not less than a quarter of any expenses shown to their satisfaction to have been reasonably incurred in compliance with subsection (1) above, and shall have power to make further contributions of such amount in each case as they shall, having regard to all the circumstances, consider reasonable.
§ Mr. Gibson-WattI beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 1, leave out 'quarter' and insert 'half'. 177 We were naturally sorry to hear that the Government have not moved in this matter, since our opinion has not changed either. Although the hon. and learned Gentleman argued cogently that there will be cases in which enlightened local authorities will pay up to 100 per cent., our experience is that the vast majority will be much more likely to think of the figure of a quarter as a maximum, although the Bill specifically provides that it is a minimum.
There are two particular areas in which expense will be great. First of all, in those areas where the stiles and footpaths are being reopened in large numbers, which are often the marginal upland areas—the Secretary of State for Wales will know what I mean—this will be very expensive. I would have thought that a 50-50 minimum would have been been much fairer to the farming community.
The Government Front Bench have heard our arguments many times and I am sorry that they have not altered their view. During discussions on the
§ Bill they have been in some difficulty over the provision of money and it was made clear in Committee by the hon. and learned Gentleman that the monies which it had been hoped to find will not now all be available. So he may be hesitant to ask local authorities, in addition to finding money for signposts, to find also a high percentage for stiles. But the farmer also has his problems and the Government could have given rather more equity between him and the local authority. That is the reason for this Amendment.
§ It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
§ Ordered,
§ That the Proceedings on Government Business may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. MacDermot.]
§ Question put, That the Amendment to the proposed Amendment be made: —
§ The House divided: Ayes 81, Noes 120.
179| Division No. 235.] | AYES | [10.0 p.m. |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Hunt, John | Percival, Ian |
| Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Pike, Miss Mervyn |
| Brewis, John | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Campbell, B. (Olclham, W.) | Jopiing, Michael | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Campbell, Cordon (Moray & Nairn) | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Kerehaw, Anthony | Pym, Francis |
| Clark, Henry | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Costain, A. P. | Lane, David | Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey |
| Diecles, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Scott, Nicholas |
| Elliott,R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Sharpies, Richard |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Loveys, W. H. | Silvester, Frederick |
| Eyre, Reginald | Lubbock, Eric | Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington) |
| Flatcher-Cooke, Charles | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Smith, John (London & W'minater) |
| Foster, Sir John | Maude, Angus | Speed, Keith |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Mawby, Ray | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) |
| Clyn, Sir Richard | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow.Cathcart) |
| Grant-Ferris, R. | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr, S. L. C. | Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy |
| Grieve, Percy | Mills, Peter (Torrtngton) | Turton, nt. Hn. R. H. |
| Crlmond, Rt. Hn. J. | Monro, Hector | Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John |
| Gurden, Harold | More, Jasper | Vickers, Dame Joan |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | Murton, Oscar | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Hawkins, Paul | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Hill, J. E. B. | Onstow, Cranley | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Holland, Philip | Osborn, John (Hallam) | |
| Hordem, Peter | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hornby, Richard | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Mr. Anthony Grant and |
| Mr. Timothy Kitson. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Brown, Hugh D, (G'gow, Provan) | Dickens, James |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Buchan, Norman | Dobson, Ray |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Doig, Peter |
| Butter, William | Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) |
| Blackburn, F. | Carmichael, Neil | Eadie, Alex |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Coe, Denis | Ellis, John |
| Booth, Albert | Concannon, J. D. | Fernyhough, E. |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Fletcher, Raymond (Iikeston) |
| Brcughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Dell, Edmund | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Ford, Ben | Lipton, Marcus | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Fowler, Gerry | Lomas, Kenneth | Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) |
| Fraser, John (Norwood) | Loughlin, Charles | Roebuck, Roy |
| Calpern, Sir Myer | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Shaw, Arnold (llford, S.) |
| Gourlay, Harry | McCann, John | Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) |
| Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | MacDermot, Niall | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Gregory, Arnold | McGuire, Michael | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Maclennan, Robert | Silverman, Julius |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | MacPherson, Malcolm | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Hannan, William | Manuel, Archie | Slater, Joseph |
| Harper, Joseph | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mendelson, J. J. | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Haseldine, Norman | Millan, Bruce | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Hazell, Bert | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Thomas, Rt. Hn. George |
| Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Milne, Edward (Biyth) | Tinn, James |
| Homer, John | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Urwin, T. W. |
| Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Varley, Eric G. |
| Hoy, James | Morrle, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Moyle, Roland | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Hunter, Adam | Murray, Albert | Wallace, George |
| Hynd, John | Newens, Stan | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby,S.) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh) | O'Malley, Brian | Whitaker, Ben |
| Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Orme, Stanley | White, Mrs. Eirene |
| Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull W.) | Oswald, Thomas | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Pavitt, Laurence | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Judd, Frank | Pentland, Norman | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Lawson, George | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) | Woof, Robert |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) | |
| Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Lestor, Miss Joan | Reynolds, Rt. Hn. G. W. | Mr. Ioan L. Evans and |
| Mr. Neil McBride. |
§ Proposed Amendment made to the Bill.
§
Lords Amendment No. 28: In page 26, line 37, at end insert:
or if any conditions for the maintenance of the structure are for the time being in force under section 126 of the Highways Act 1959 (authority for erection of stiles etc.)
§ Mr. SkeffingtonI beg to move. That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.
This Amendment is a saving for any maintenance conditions that may have been laid down where a stile, gate or other work on a footpath has been authorised under Section 126 of the Highways Act, 1959.
§ Question put and agreed to.