§ LOCAL AUTHORITY NOT TO MAINTAIN OR CONTRIBUTE TO PREMISES LICENSED UNDER PART II
§ 6.38 p.m.
§ Mr. Hector Monro (Dumfries)I beg to move Amendment No. 154, in page 35, line 16, at end insert:
Provided that this subsection shall not apply to the letting by a local authority of premises which they maintain or to the maintenance of which they contribute for use by a licensed bingo club for the playing of bingo.This Clause prohibits local authorities from maintaining or contributing towards the maintenance of any premises which are licensed for bingo. This means, of course, that town halls, village halls and other premises cannot be used for bingo except on a non-profit-making basis. That type of bingo is hardly likely to bring in attractive returns. Naturally, I am against local authorities subsidising or operating bingo in any way but I find difficulty in objecting to a local authority letting a hall at an economic rent to a commercial concern to run bingo evenings.This matter was raised in Committee when a very short debate on it was replied to by the Under-Secretary, the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne). But both then and during the Second Reading I believe that he missed the point. He spoke then of a clarification of the 1963 Act and gave his views on municipally-operated bingo, but, of course, I am completely against that. But I cannot see why municipally-owned halls should not be let for bingo. We all know that halls cost a lot of money to keep up and it is important to have them used as often as possible. In my own constituency of Dumfries there is a large hall and a regular income from bingo would 302 be most helpful towards its maintenance and repair.
This certainly would help to reduce rents for other organisations, many of them voluntary, amateur sports clubs, badminton clubs, and so on. In some areas there may be only one hall and that owned by the borough council, the county council, or in Scotland, the district council. In those cases, if there were no alternative hall for playing bingo, this form of pastime would be banned.
I am not setting out the case for bingo as a game, or form of entertainment, but it certainly gives many people a lot of pleasure, company in the evening, and enjoyment. I cannot see why this should be prevented by the Bill. Earlier in our discussions we heard that bingo is little more than a family game. We rightly stress in the House that local authorities should be given as much power as possible over their own affairs. Surely we can trust local authorities to use their discretion wisely. If bingo was not conducted in a seemly way, the local authority would stop the let. This Clause restricts the use of local authority property. If it is passed as it stands, it would show little confidence in local authorities being able to run their own affairs.
No doubt the Under-Secretary will stress the commercial aspect. That is a very narrow view to take. I hope that he will not bring it out in connection with a local authority letting a hall for this type of entertainment. Another argument he may bring out is that under the Bill a licence should be granted only where there is a significant demand shown to exist and, therefore, if there is a demand for a club, the club owner should be able to provide adequate premises. I do not agree with that argument. Size is important in relation to bingo. The larger the number of players the better for all concerned. Often local authorities have large halls which are available for renting. We should allow an authority to hire out to whom it thinks fit and to receive a substantial income in return.
The Amendment is self-explanatory and would be valuable for the ratepayers. I hope that the Government will accept it.
§ The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Elystan Morgan)Clause 42(1) prohibits a local authority from maintaining or contributing towards the maintenance of any premises licensed under the Bill. The principle on which the Clause is based is that public authorities should not be concerned in the provision of facilities for commercial gaming. It is well to remember that this Clause replaces Section 39 of the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1963, which forbids local authorities to maintain premises,
wholly or mainly for the purpose of persons resorting thereto habitually for the purpose of taking part in gaming.The effect of that provision was to do no more than make clear that local authorities had no power to run casinos and the like; any case in which an authority let a hall on one or two nights for the use of a commercial bingo club or any other gaming club was not within the scope of this provision.6.45 p.m.
Clause 42 approaches the problem more directly. It prevents a local authority from maintaining or subsidising premises licensed for gaming, but that is all. The local authority is, therefore, free to maintain premises and to allow them to be used for a variety of purposes in this connection. They may be used by a member's club or institute which is registered for gaming, or which provides it without the need for registration under the special concessions made for sixpenny bingo in Clause 39, or by anyone who wishes to promote an entertainment, which may consist of bingo, for purposes other than private gain under the terms of Clause 40, or for charitable fetes, bazaars and so on permitted under Section 48 of the 1963 Act at which games may be provided as " incidents ".
It has been argued by the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) that in certain areas licensed clubs will have none but local authority premises in which they could operate. This argument raises directly the issue whether commercial bingo is so desirable a feature of the English, the Welsh, or the Scottish scene that local authorities should be free to provide premises for this purpose within the rates. We believe the answer to that must be in the negative. What then remains is the question whether there can be any harm when a local authority is accus- 304 tomed to hire a hall for general purposes and from time to time hires it to a commercial bingo club without any favourable treatment but exactly on the same conditions as for any other person or body.
The difficulty is to see how such a practice can be reconciled with the objects and nature of the licensing control system. The Bill provides that a licence shall not be granted to a club unless there is a substantial demand for it and that that demand can be shown to exist. Further, the justices must be satisfied as to the suitability of the premises and that strict supervision is maintained.
It is very doubtful, to say the least, whether those conditions could be fulfilled by a club which has no permanent abode of its own but which is compelled by lack of membership or lack of resources to rely on the periodic hiring of a local authority hall which is also used for a variety of purposes and in whose management it would have no effective say, even if such a club could meet the fiscal and other costs of gaming under licence without scamping or avoiding the obligations which other licensed clubs would be expected to assume to maintain proper supervision over the conduct of play. We would be surprised if licensing justices were prepared to issue licenses on such a basis. Nor should we think it right to open the way for them so to do.
§ Mr. Antony Buck (Colchester)I am very disappointed by the response we have had from the Under-Secretary. He said that the Amendment would not be effective because no one would be allowed to play bingo or to have licensed premises in local authority halls. This is a matter for the licensing justices. If the hon. Gentleman were right he would be proved right by the effluxion of time and by the fact that applications would be turned down. I fail to see any objection to the Amendment.
The hon. Gentleman said that there has first to be demand before a licence is granted and that it is unlikely to be shown that there would be a demand for bingo in a hall owned by a local authority and let by the authority once or twice a week. Why does he say that? It may be possible for the applicants to establish that there is a demand for bingo on certain days in a small town. It may be that a 305 local authority hall is the only hall available. What objection can there be to the local authority letting that hall, at an economic rent, to bingo operators? If the demand is there it will be shown before the licensing justices who, presumably, would grant the licence.
The Under-Secretary suggested that in no circumstances could the applicants satisfy the justices as to the suitability of the premises. I do not know what authority the Minister has for saying that. There is a wide variety of halls, big and small, owned by local authorities throughout the country, and some are eminently suitable for use for licensed bingo from time to time.
The Government's attitude is very churlish. It is pleasant to see the hon.
§ Gentleman's predecessor sitting beside him. As the hon. and learned Gentleman, now Minister of State, Treasury, said in Committee, the question is where one draws the line. In this case the Government have drawn it in the wrong place. The result will be minor inconvenience to people and lack of amenity if the Government do not accept the Amendment, which we are very grateful to my hon. Friend for having moved.
§ I have been entirely unconvinced by the Government's arguments and hope that we shall pursue the Amendment to a Division.
§ Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 131, Noes 197.
307| Division No. 211.] | AYES | [6.52 p.m. |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Harris Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | Nott, John |
| Allason, James (Hemol Hempstead) | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward | Onslow, Cranley |
| Astor, John | Higgins, Terence L. | Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian |
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Hiley, Joseph | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) |
| Baker, Kenneth (Acton) | Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Baker, W. H. K. (Banff) | Hooson, Emlyn | Percival, Ian |
| Blffen, John | Hordern, Peter | Peyton, John |
| Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel | Hornby, Richard | Pounder, Rafton |
| Boardtnan, Tom (Leicester, S.W.) | Howell, David (Guildford) | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Body, Richard | Hunt, John | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Pym, Francis |
| Buchanan-Smith,Alick(Angus,N&M) | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Buck, Antony (Colchester) | Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead) | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Ridley, H. Nicholas |
| Carlisle, Mark | Jopling, Michael | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Royle, Anthony |
| Clegg, Walter | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Russell, Sir Ronald |
| Cooke, Robert | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Cordle, John | Kirk, Peter | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Corfield, F. V. | Kitson, Timothy | Silvester, Frederick |
| Costaln, A. P. | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Speed, Keith |
| Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Stainton, Keith |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M. (Ripon) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Dance, James | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart) |
| Davidson,James(Aberdeenshire,W.) | L'oyd Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) | Taylor, Frank (Mots Side) |
| Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | Loveys, W. H. | Temple, John M. |
| Oeedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | Lubbock, Eric | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Drayson, C. B. | MacArthur, Ian | Van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross&Crom'ty) | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Eden, Sir John | Macleod Rt. Hn. lain | Wall, Patrick |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Maginnis, John E. | Walters, Dennis |
| Emery, Peter | Maude, Angus | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Mawby, Ray | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Eyre, Reginald | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Webster, David |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William |
| Fortescue, Tim | Milts, Peter (Torrington) | Williams, Donald (Dudley) |
| Coodhew, Victor | Montgomery, Fergus | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Cower, Raymond | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Grant, Anthony | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Younger, Hn. George |
| Griffiths Eldnn (Bury St. Edmunds) | Munro-Lucas-Tooth, sir Hugh | |
| Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Neave, Alrey | Mr. Jasper More and |
| Hall-Davis, A. C. F. | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Mr. Hector Monro. |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Ashley, Jack | Barnes, Michael |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Barnett, Joel |
| Alldritt, Wa ter | Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Baxter, William |
| Archer, Peter | Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Bence, Cyril |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Hamling, Willam | O'Malley, Brian |
| Binns, John | Hannan, Wlliam | Orme, Stanley |
| Blackburn, F. | Harper, Joseph | Oswald, Thomas |
| Blenkintop, Arthur | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Boardman, H. (Leigh) | Haseldine, Norman | Paget, R. T. |
| Boyden, James | Hattertley, Roy | Palmer, Arthur |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Hazell, Bert | Pannetl, Rt. Hn. Charles |
| Bradley, Tom | Heffer, Eric S. | Park, Trevor |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Hooley, Frank | Parker, John (Dagenham) |
| Brooks, Edwin | Homer, John | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Howarth, Harry (Wellingborough) | Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.) |
| Buchan, Norman | Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.) | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Buchanan, Richard (C'gow, Sp'burn) | Huckfield, Leslie | Probert, Arthur |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Pursey, Cmdr. Harry |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill) | Randall, Harry |
| Cant, R. B. | Jackson, Peter M. (High Peak) | Rankin, John |
| Carmichael, Neil | Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford) | Rees, Merlyn |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull W.) | Reynolds, Bt. Hn. C. W. |
| Chapman, Donald | Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham,S.) | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Coe, Denis | Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Coleman, Donald | Kelley, Richard | Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) |
| Concannon, J. D. | Kenyon, Clifford | Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St.P'c'as) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Lawson, George | Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Leadbitter, Ted | Rose Paul |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Ledger, Ron | Rowlands, E. (Cardiff, N.) |
| Dalyell, Tarn | Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton) | shaw Arnold (Ilford, S.) |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Lee, John (Reading) | Sheldon, Robert |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Lestor, Miss Joan | Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E. |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney) |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Lomas, Kenneth | Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford) |
| Dell, Edmund | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) | Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwieh) |
| Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.) | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Dickens, James | McBride, Neil | Slater, Joseph |
| Dobson, Ray | McCann, John | Small, William |
| Doig, Peter | MacColl, James | Sonw, Julian |
| Driberg, Tom | MacDermot, Niall | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Macdonald, A. H. | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | McGuire, Michael | Symonds, J. B. |
| Edwards, William (Merioneth) | McKay, Mrs. Margaret | Taverns Dick |
| Ellis, John | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Tinn, James |
| English, Michael | Mackie, John | Urwin, T. W. |
| Ensor, David | Mackintosh, John P. | Varley, Eric C. |
| Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) | Maclennan, Robert | Wainwright, Edwin (Deame Valley) |
| Faulds, Andrew | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) | Walden, Brian (All Saints) |
| Fernyhough, E. | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Wallace, George |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Manuel, Archie | Watklns, David (Consett) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Marks, Kenneth | Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor) |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Marquand, David | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Forrester, John | Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy | Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick |
| Fraser, John (Norwood) | Mendelson, J. J. | Williams, Clifford (Abertillary) |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Mikardo, Ian | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Gardner, Tony | Millan, Bruce | Willis, Rt. Hn. George |
| Garrett, W. E. | Molloy, William | Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton) |
| Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire) | Winnick, David |
| Gourlay, Harry | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A. |
| Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Woof, Robert |
| Grey, Charles (Durham) | Murray, Albert | Yates, Victor |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Newens, Stan | |
| Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly) | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Phillp (Derby, S.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J. | Oakes, Gordon | Mr. Ioan L. Evans and |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Ogden, Eric | Mr. Ernest Armstrong. |