§ Amendment made: In page 13, line 22, after "The", insert "United Kingdom".—[Mr. Boyden.]
§ 8.20 p.m.
§ Mr. PrenticeI beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
The Bill is now almost the same as it was when I moved the Second Reading on 2nd May, after the very small Amendments made on Report this evening. It has had a brief passage both in Committee and on Report. This reflects the skill of my predecessor in bequeathing me a good Bill, and on the skill and hard work of the Parliamentary Secretary who has worked on it both in the last Parliament and in this.
I cannot refrain from referring to the failure of the Opposition in their attempt to make this a major political issue. They have failed to arouse interest in it and have found themselves in this Parliament going through a token repetition of their votes against it without any head of steam behind their attitude.
The Bill provides a permanent power to exercise measures of control over large privately sponsored construction projects. I would remind the House that it does not apply to housing or to industrial building; it does not apply to building in development areas; it does not apply to work in the public sector; it does not apply to work of less than £100,000 in value. It applies to about 7 per cent. of the construction effort of the country. In doing so, it gives the Government a measure of control, which has happily been described as a fingertip control, to vary the load on the industry arid to take the measures necessary to see that demand and capacity march in step.
I want to pay tribute to the cooperation of the industry in working the authorisation system that has been in existence for the past year. The operation has been a smooth one. The overwhelming majority of potential developers have co-operated in this, and I am grateful for the way they have done so.
534 I would add that in my period of office, and in conversations that I have had with leaders of the industry, I have not sensed any hostility to the concept of this control. I want to make clear what I am saying. Anyone who wants to carry out a particular development would rather not have Government control. However, looking at the general problem and listening to the views of leading figures in the industry, I can state that among the many problems to which they have referred they have not mentioned this as one of their difficulties. Most individuals have volunteered the statement that this is a sensible provision.
That makes me return to the charge that hon. Members opposite, in their opposition to the Bill, are motivated by a doctrinaire objection to controls. In opposing the Bill they have to face the logic of the alternatives. Either they are saying that the Government should never intervene to achieve the objective of regulating the load on the industry—if so they are accepting that, as they did in previous discussions, the difficulties that the industry faces in fluctuations in demand but, even so, are prepared to stand on the side lines and do nothing about it—or they are saying that such restrictions might be applied from time to time, but should apply only in the public sector. In other words, the Government can defer schools or hospitals but should not defer holiday camps. I do not know if that is the position that they take. Do they seek to defer council houses but not luxury flats?
Or they are saying that any control which is operated by the Government should be operated, as it has been in the past, by the blunt instruments of the Bank Rate, the credit squeeze and such things—in other words, that these controls should apply equally to factories as to bingo halls, or to an area of heavy local unemployment as to an area of full employment. If they reject, as they should logically, all these objectives, they must accept something in the nature of what I am proposing here as being necessary.
§ Mr. CostainIf the right hon. Gentleman had heard the speech that I made 535 in the Second Reading debate he would know that I said that in the industry certain things might get overheated, and that we should licence materials for luxury items. That is the control that I advocated. The right hon. Gentleman is making the issue much too black and white. We are not doctrinaire; we are realistic.
§ Mr. PrenticeI am not sure that he would receive many thanks from the materials producers or from most builders for suggesting that as an alternative, but I note the fact that he has at least suggested an alternative, which is unusual in view of the attitude of most of his hon. Friends, who have been negative throughout.
§ Mr. Robert CookeThe right hon. Gentleman will concede that the purpose of his regulator is to direct building operations into the more essential fields, such as housing—to get more houses. But that they have not got, in spite of the controls.
§ Mr. PrenticeI would love to debate housing with the hon. Gentleman if it were allowed, or were in order. I am willing to do so at any time that he may like to choose. We had a debate on this matter a week or two ago in which the Opposition were trounced, especially by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government.
Hon. Members opposite must face the fact—I appreciate that the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain) has made an individual contribution—that we are proposing a practical means of dealing with a long-term problem, and that without such means a future Government would be thrown back to doing nothing about the problem, or would have to concentrate only on restrictions on the public sector to the advantage of the private sector, or thrown back to dealing with the private sector only by the blunt instruments of the Bank Rate, the credit squeeze, and so on, which would not distinguish in priorities as between types of development or regions of the country.
The common sense of this Measure is accepted generally by the industry and the professions associated with it, and by public opinion. It is a contribution towards the strategy which a Government must follow in the future in order to try 536 to improve the efficiency and productivity of the building industry, one of the conditions for which is that there should be a sensible relationship between the growth of demand and the growth of the capacity of the industry to meet that demand.
For those reasons, I commend the Third Reading of the Bill.
§ 8.28 p.m.
§ Mr. Chichester-ClarkWe have listened to what was, at this stage, an extraordinarily ungracious speech from the Minister. I had intended to pay a tribute to him for his unfailing, if sometimes rather abrasive, courtesy in Committee. I shall now have to limit myself to referring to his demeanour in Committee. Happily, I can at least say how grateful we are to the Parliamentary Secretary for his courtesy in Committee. If, on occasion, we found him a little polemical we answered back and all went well. There was no complaint about him, and we are grateful to him.
I am grateful also to my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon) for all the immensely hard work he put into our discussions of the Bill and to my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain), without whose experience we should have been much the poorer. Indeed, the same goes for all my hon. Friends who have taken part in the debate.
I was somewhat surprised by the Minister's attack this evening. I know very well that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would probably call me to order if I were to pursue him into some of the realms which he entered. The Third Reading of a Bill is concerned with what is in the Bill and not with the alternatives which the Minister might have followed, so I cannot pursue him in that direction.
What is distressing, at this stage of the Bill, is the lack of interest from the party opposite. It has always been remarkable and it is indicative of their lack of interest in the construction industry, which we must all deplore. They have all left their places to go to rest, presumably in the calm after the storm of this morning's Parliamentary Labour Party meeting, they have lost interest in the construction industry.
Even more remarkable is the total disappearance from the field of the Parliamentary Liberal Party. We have heard 537 promises from them, at stages through the Bill, that they would help us on the Committee stage and would put down Amendments, and that if they did not get to the Committee stage they would come to Report and put forward many Amendments. Apart from the fact that they have voted on matters on which they have not heard the arguments, we have had neither sight nor sound of them this evening. This is something which the construction industry will deplore as much as I do. They know now what help they can expect from that quarter.
The point has now been reached in our discussions when both sides are fully exposed. The principles of the Bill have been fully discussed and we have reached the Great Divide. We have run through
§ two Ministers, two Bills, and two Parliaments. There is little else that can be said, save that the Bill, in itself, is a very small part of the uncertainty which the Government have brought about in the construction industry in the last eighteen months—an uncertainty which we deeply deplore in one of the most important industries in the country.
§ This is a minor cause of the uncertainty. If we can, at this stage, help to remove some part of the uncertainty by not disputing the Bill further, I am delighted to advise my hon. and right hon. Friends to divide against its Third Reading.
§ Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 199, Noes 118.
539| Division No. 98.] | AYES | [8.31 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter) | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e) | Judd, Frank |
| Alldritt, Walter | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Kenyon, Clifford |
| Archer, Peter | Edwards, William (Merioneth) | Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | English, Michael | Lawson, George |
| Ashley, Jack | Ennals, David | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.) | Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham) | Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley) | Lipton, Marcus |
| Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice | Fernyhough, E. | Lomas, Kenneth |
| Barnett, Joel | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Lubbock, Eric |
| Baxter, William | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Lyon, Alexander W. (York) |
| Bence, Cyril | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | McBride, Neil |
| Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton) | Ford, Ben | McCann, John |
| Bessell, Peter | Forrester, John | MacDermot, Niall |
| Bishop, E. S. | Fowler, Gerry | Macdonald, A. H. |
| Blackburn, F. | Fraser, John (Norwood) | McGuire, Michael |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Galpern, Sir Myer | Maclennan, Robert |
| Boardman, H. | Gardner, A. J. | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.) |
| Booth, Albert | Ginsburg, David | McNamara, J. Kevin |
| Boyden, James | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C. | MacPherson, Malcolm |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Courlay, Harry | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) |
| Bradley, Tom | Gregory, Arnold | Manuel, Archie |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Griffiths, Will (Exchange) | Mapp, Charles |
| Brooks, Edwin | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Marquand, David |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Hamilton, William (Fife, W.) | Mason, Roy |
| Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan) | Hamling, William | Millan, Bruce |
| Brown, Sob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W) | Hannan, William | Miller, Dr. M. S. |
| Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury) | Harper, Joseph | Morgan, Elysian (Cardiganshire) |
| Buchan, Norman | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Haxell, Bert | Neal, Harold |
| Carmichael, Neil | Heifer, Eric S. | Newens, Stan |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Henig, Stanley | Norwood, Christopher |
| Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara | Hobden, Dennis (Brighton, K'town) | Oakes, Gordon |
| Coe, Denis | Hooley, Frank | Ogden, Eric |
| Coleman, Donald | Hooson, Emlyn | O'Malley, Brian |
| Concannon, J. D. | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Oram, Albert E. |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Orbach, Maurice |
| Cronin, John | Howie, W. | Orme, Stanley |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Hoy, James | Oswald, Thomas |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hughes, Emrys (Ayrshire, S.) | Owen, Dr. David (Plymoutn, S'tn) |
| Davidson, Arthur (Accrington) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Owen, Will (Morpeth) |
| Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford) | Hunter, Adam | Park, Trevor |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Hynd, John | Parkyn, Brian (Bedford) |
| Davies, Robert (Cambridge) | Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Davies, S. D. (Merthyr) | Jackson, Colin (B'h'ee & Spenb'gh) | Pentland, Norman |
| Dempsey, James | Jeger, George (Goole) | Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.) |
| Dewar, Donald | Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.) | Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E. |
| Dickens, James | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Price, Christopher (Perry Barr) |
| Dobson, Ray | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Price, Thomas (Westhoughton) |
| Doig, Peter | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Dunn, James A. | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Probert, Arthur |
| Donnell, Jack | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Randall, Harry |
| Rankin, John | Silverman, Julius (Aston) | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Redhead, Edward | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Rees, Merlyn | Slater, Joseph | Watkins, David (Consett) |
| Rhodes, Geoffrey | Small, William | Whitaker, Ben |
| Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.) | Spriggs, Leslie | Whitlock, William |
| Robertson, John (Paisley) | Steel, David (Roxburgh) | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St, P'c'as) | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W,) | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Robinson, W. O. J. (Walth'stow, E.) | Stonehouse, John | Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Rose, Paul | Swingler, Stephen | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Ross, Rt. Hn. William | Symonds, J. B. | Winstanley, Dr. M. P. |
| Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.) | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) | Winterbottom, R. E. |
| Sheldon, Robert | Thornton, Ernest | |
| Shore, Peter (Stepney) | Thorpe, Jeremy | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne) | Urwin, T. W. | Mr. Charles Grey and |
| Silkin, John (Deptford) | Varley, Eric G. | Mr. Alan Fitch. |
| Silkin, S. C. (Dulwich) | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) | |
| NOES | ||
| Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n) | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Onslow, Cranley |
| Bell, Ronald | Hawkins, Paul | Osborn, John (Hallam) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) |
| Blaker, Peter | Heseltine, Michael | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Braine, Bernard | Higgins, Terence L. | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Brews, John | Hill, J. E. B. | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Holland, Philip | Peel, John |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt. Col. Sir Walter | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Percival, Ian |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Iremonger, T. L. | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Pounder, Rafton |
| Buck, Antony (Colchester) | Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford) | Pym, Francis |
| Bullus, Sir Eric | Jopling, Michael | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Campbell, Gordon | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Carlisle, Mark | Kimball, Marcus | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Channon, H. P. G. | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Kirk, Peter | Roots, William |
| Cooke, Robert | Kitson, Timothy | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Costain, A. P. | Knight, Mrs. Jill | Royle, Anthony |
| Crouch, David | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Scott, Nicholas |
| Cunningham, Sir Knox | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Sharples, Richard |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone) | Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby) |
| Dance, James | Loveys, W. H. | Stainton, Keith |
| Dean, Paul (Somerset, N.) | MacArthur, Ian | Stodart, Anthony |
| Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford) | McMaster, Stanley | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Maddan, Martin | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Eden, Sir John | Maginnis, John E. | Wall, Patrick |
| Elliott, R.W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Marten, Neil | Walters, Denis |
| Farr, John | Maude, Angus | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Fisher, Nigel | Mawby, Ray | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Webster, David |
| Forrest, George | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Whitelaw, William |
| Galbraith, Hn. T. G. | Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.) | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.) | Miscamphell, Norman | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Glyn, Sir Richard | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Goodhart, Philip | Monro, Hector | Wylie, N. R. |
| Goodhew, Victor | Morgan, W. G. (Denbigh) | Younger, Hn. George |
| Cower, Raymond | Murton, Oscar | |
| Grant, Anthony | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Gurden, Harold | Nicholls, Sir Harmer | Mr. Jasper More and |
| Harris, Reader (Heston) | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael | Mr. Reginald Eyre. |
| Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Nott, John |
§ Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.