§ The rate of tax payable by a unit trust or by an investment trust approved by the Board for the purposes of sections 34 and 63 of this Act on any chargeable grant accruing in any accounting period (as calculated in accordance with section 51 of this Act) shall not exceed that payable in that period by an individual under section 19(3) of this Act.—[Mr. Peter Walker.]
§ Mr. Peter WalkerI beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
New Clause No. 43 is a Clause of fundamental importance to unit and investment trusts. The arguments involved are those concerned with seeing that the individual investor investing in both unit trusts and investment trusts does enjoy a position similar to what he would have enjoyed if he had been an individual investor. I hope that in considering this Clause the Government will have been able to reflect in the period between the Committee stage and Report stage of the Bill, exactly how important the investment and unit trust movements are.
On the investment trust movement, it has already been mentioned in the Committee stage that about £3,000 million are invested through the media of investment trusts. It is also known what a widespread movement the unit trust movement is. I have a connection with the unit trust movement through its rebirth after the war. Together with one of my right hon. Friends, we started the first unit trust after the war. As far as this new Clause and other Amendments are concerned, I would say that I would in no way benefit from them going through.
Both sides of the House have come to recognise what an important movement this has become, and we have seen in recent years the trade union movement take an interest in this form of investment. We have seen the party opposite even talk about the possibility of a national unit trust as a medium to encourage savings. From the point of view of the Chancellor's economic policy, there is no period when it has been more important to encourage 1538 savings than at present. I am sure that the Chancellor must at this time be very concerned at recent figures of National Savings. I am sure that he must show some concern at savings in the form of private investment, such as investment and unit trusts. The House will be disturbed to know that unit trust sales, during the first five months of this year, have been 25 per cent. lower than in the similar five months last year. This is the first period for many years, certainly since, I think, 1957, in which there has been this drop in sales of this type of investment.
From the Chancellor's point of view it possibly means that people with the higher earnings and higher incomes that they are enjoying at present, instead of saving are spending and this does put an unwelcome inflationary pressure upon the economy which I am certain the Chancellor would not like to see at present. Therefore, the criticism of this side of the House has constantly been that this Finance Bill rather than encouraging saving has been an actual deterrent to saving.
There is no sphere where this is more obvious than investment and unit trusts. The capital gains that take place within the unit or investment trust will be taxed at 35 per cent. The Chancellor has indicated that there is the possibility in another Budget of this being raised to 40 per cent., although he hoped that it would not be more than 40 per cent. We heard earlier this afternoon from the Financial Secretary that under some proposed Amendments which might be accepted by the House and which are being moved by the Chancellor at a later stage, we would have a situation that a person paying the standard rate of Income Tax would be paying Capital Gains Tax at a level of 20 per cent.
It means, if the Chancellor went to 40 per cent., that by investing through a unit trust for a period a person will be subject to 40 per cent. or 35 per cent. tax whereas, as an individual, he would only be subject to 20 per cent. tax.
Thus for that period, before taking advantage of any credits which are given to them—most unit and investment trust holders are long-term holders—they will be at a disadvantage, to the extent that the Chancellor has taxed them at the rate of 35 per cent. or 40 per cent., 1539 whereas as individuals investing in those same underlying securities and disposing of the same underlying securities they would be taxed only at 20 per cent.
The purpose of the Clause is not even to reduce it to the average rate that will be paid by the individual. It is not to reduce it to the rate paid by the individual paying the standard rate of Income Tax. By the Clause we are trying to secure that the normal rate of 30 per cent. applicable to the individual shall be applied to unit and investment trusts.
Many Amendments which we moved in Committee were then opposed by the Government, although they have now tabled similar Amendments. I hope that this will be another matter on which they will decide to change their attitude. I hope that they will decide to change their attitude in view of the latest figures on savings. I hope that they will change their attitude in view of the general depression which exists among the investing public and savers.
On our attempt to delete the double taxation effects and during the discussions on unit trusts we heard many speeches from both sides of the House on this subject. We heard several hon. Members opposite support this general viewpoint. On several occasions the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) pointed out how damaging the higher taxation in terms of the unit and investment trust movement has been, in that it has discouraged the small investor. The principle outlined as a great doctrine by the Chief Secretary has been somewhat breached, in view of the Government's attitude to charities and unit trusts. The Chief Secretary has seen the importance of some provision so that people paying no Capital Gains Tax will pay no Capital Gains Tax within a unit trust.
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will, in view of this, also ensure that the same provision applies to the great mass of people who use this movement as a medium of saving. One easy way of achieving that end would be for the Government to accept the Clause.
§ Mr. Geoffrey LloydI support the Clause. It is broadly true that under our present system one can save or invest either as an individual or in corporation through investment trusts without any 1540 disadvantage. I do not think that there is any disadvantage attached to corporate saving through an investment trust. Under the system the Government propose there is now a heavy disadvantage on savings in an incorporated form. The Chief Secretary admitted this in earlier debates touching on this subject by saying that investors have to decide the advantages and disadvantages of the corporate form of investment.
What reason is there for putting a weight of disadvantage on this form of corporate saving, more particularly as the disadvantage becomes greater for the smaller investor because of his lower rate of personal tax from a Capital Gains Tax point of view? I think that the Chief Secretary will answer that it is important that, once a company is taxed, it should be taxed at the same rate for its Corporation Tax and its Capital Gains Tax. This would admittedly be consistent, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself said this of a company's profits in his Budget statement:
whether those profits arise as trading income or as capital gains is immaterial, and … they should be taxed at the same rate."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th April, 1965; Vol. 709, c. 251.]I can quite understand that the motive behind this with regard to ordinary trading companies might be that there is great simplicity in it and that it would remove the temptation from companies to dress up their accounts in the form of income or of capital gains. I can imagine that in the complicated commercial transactions of big companies it might be possible to do this and that there might be a case that the rate should be the same for such companies.12.45 a.m.
Investment trusts are in a completely different position, because for them, capital and income are completely separated. The great majority of investment trusts, by their articles of association can never distribute their surpluses and in this Bill, to qualify for being investment trusts, it is compulsory for them never to distribute capital surpluses.
Whatever may be the case with other companies, these are a special form of company engaged in saving. They hold only securities and it is absolutely clear whether one is dealing with income or capital surpluses. The disadvantages 1541 that might attach to different rates for Capital Gains Tax and Corporation Tax in the broad mass of companies do not apply in investment trusts and I am arguing that there is no reason in logic why the Chief Secretary should not grant this concession.
I think that it would be in the interest of saving if the right hon. Gentleman did, because that investment trust is a medium for the savings of a large number of small savers and it seems to be a pity to put an extra weight on them. The Government have here an opportunity of somewhat redressing that balance.
§ Mr. GrimondI would agree with the view, which I think the Chief Secretary will express, that the debate is bound to be somewhat repetitive, as we had a debate on this in Committee. I think that the Government should to some extent judge that case for an Amendment by the volume of criticism of the Government and of support for an Amendment, as well by the arguments advanced.
I support two of the arguments which have been advanced for this Clause. There is a distinction between unit and investment trusts, and ordinary companies. Although it may be right to charge Capital Gains Tax at the same rate as Corporation Tax for ordinary companies, I think that investment trusts are simply a body of people come together for saving in some organisation.
It cannot be denied that there is some disadvantage, and it may be marginal, in investment in trusts. I feel sure that the Chief Secretary will advance against that the view that this is by no means proved and that in some cases this provision in the Bill may be an advantage to a trust, that in a short-term gain there may be advantages in the Government proposals, but I do not think that people who invest in investment or unit trusts look for short-term gains.
It is much more important to encourage that type of investor who wants to go in for longer term investment. It may be better for that type of investor to do so through a trust than in any other way. The advantages of the investment trust movement as against the unit trust movement is that one puts investment into the hands of experts and that is a sensible thing for many people to do. If the 1542 Chief Secretary were to say, "I grant you that this is so, but, nevertheless, there are other reasons for not pressing this matter too far", I would agree; but I should have thought that the Government would want to leave this matter neutral and to put the investor through a trust, whether a unit trust or an investment trust, at no disadvantage. Bearing in mind that most of these investors are long-term investors, they will be put slightly at a disadvantage.
I think that this view is held by many people and I ask the Government to look at the matter again.
§ Mr. DiamondI think that it would be convenient for me to reply as the hour is late, and to assure the Committee, and particularly the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), that the Government are conscious of the good work done by unit and investment trusts. At the risk of boring the House, I should say that the Government's attitude is, as I have said before, to encourage saving in all its forms, small and large, and that these are acceptable forms of saving.
The amount of money involved is very small indeed. We are not talking about that, however. We are talking about the principle. The arguments which have been advanced against me are those of principle and the House will, therefore, not object if I reply in terms of principle. In terms of principle, one does not want to put a marked disadvantage on those who invest through unit trusts or investment trusts, and my view is that there is no marked disadvantage in the law as it is now proposed in the Bill.
Unit trusts rarely alter their investments. Investment trusts do. As for investment trusts, many of their shareholders—I do not say the majority—are themselves companies. One therefore should have a major reason for departing from the normal application of the tax. That is absent; there is no major reason for departure. The difference in the rate of tax involved is very small indeed. At present, this is 5 per cent. more or less; I repeat what I said on a previous occasion—more or less. It could be less. It could on occasion be more. I grant that the probability is that on the majority of occasions it would be less for the personal tax, but on some occasions it would be more.
1543 I draw attention to the fact that where companies are shareholders it is inappropriate to charge the rate chargeable to an individual, and many companies are shareholders of investment trusts. The natural way in which the tax would apply is the same as it would apply in the case of all other companies. One differentiates between the company and the shareholder. To look through the company to the individual is breaching the principle of this tax, which we have not done in any other respect and would not be prepared to do here.
It is no good hon. Members saying that they are not attracted by the idea of keeping the tax, not necessarily in a pure form but in an orderly form, because the only arguments advanced against the Bill are arguments of principle, and immediately one departs from the principle of a tax one does an injustice to some individual or other. As soon as a concession is given in one respect, one creates an injustice to somebody in a similar position though not an identical position.
Therefore, we could not accept the Clause because the rate of tax which should be borne by a corporation is that which is appropriate to a corporation. The amount involved is negligible and is not an argument on either side. It would be a major breach of the principle of the tax to attempt to look through the corporation to the individual. It would be inappropriate to regard all investment trust shareholders as individuals when, in fact, a large number of them are companies.
I am bound to repeat what has been said on other occasions—it is necessarily repetitive because we have been through all the arguments many times—that there are two major principles of taxation involved here, and there is no injustice of any discernible kind the other way round. Therefore, I could not recommend the House to accept the Clause.
§ Mr. William ClarkNobody could over-emphasise the importance of savings. I know that the Chief Secretary is interested. Many times in opposition he supported Clauses moved by my hon. Friends and myself on savings and I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman, at this hour of the night and after such an important Clause has been moved, 1544 takes an attitude, now that he has responsibility in the matter, which is so negative towards the small saver. He considers that there should be no differentiation for unit trust savings, but he failed to say that the unit trust is a very good medium for the small saver.
A tycoon with £10,000 or £100,000 to invest can obtain a portfolio and get a spread of investments, and if one investment goes down another goes up and an even balance is kept. The small individual saver with £200 to invest has not the same advantage, but the unit trust gives him a complete spread of investment so that whatever happens to equity shares on the market he can maintain his position. I am sure that the Chief Secretary could not deny this.
The right hon. Gentleman asked why investment trusts should have different treatment. He failed to say that most of the £3,000 million invested with these trusts was invested by charities, superannuation funds and individual investors. If one refers to life assurance funds which invest through investment trusts one is speaking of thousands and thousands of people who hold ordinary insurance policies. On charities the Government are illogical. Charities are exempt from Capital Gains Tax.
The Government cannot have it both ways. The Chief Secretary was not at all forthcoming in his criticism when he said that investment trusts and unit trusts are altogether different from the individual. More individuals are represented through these trusts than the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to admit. He continues throughout our debates to pay lip service to the Government's wish to help the small saver, but the Government do nothing about helping him. My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) moved the new Clause to give the Government the opportunity of proving that they want to do something for the small saver.
No hon. Member would deny the qualities and capabilities of the unit trust movement and its advantages to the small man, but what has happened in recent years? Over the first five months of 1964, while there was a Tory Administration, £44 million were additionally invested in unit trusts. Over the first five months of this year that figure has fallen 1545 to £33 million. In my view, this is a serious reduction, a fall of about 25 per cent. in investment in unit trusts. Why? It has come about because of the implementation of the Capital Gains Tax and Corporation Tax as they affect the small saver.
1.0 a.m.
There is no question of tax avoidance raised by the Clause. It is designed to help the small saver. If the Government are to have deficit financing in their Budget, as they must, they must also continue to help small savings, but, as my hon. Friend pointed out, it is most unfair to charge Corporation Tax at 35 or 40 per cent. on the only medium through which the small man can invest whereas the individual would probably pay only half that rate, or, in the case of many small savers, would have no liability at all. How can the right hon.
§ Gentleman say that he is helping small savers if he will not concede the principle which we are pressing upon him?
§ If it is found that the small saver is being penalised under the Bill, and if Corporation Tax goes up in the future, the small saver must be given a way by which he can opt out. Why has the Chief Secretary turned down this most useful Clause? Savings help a man to be independent. I urge the right hon. Gentleman to think about this again because the country generally and small savers, in particular, are looking to the Government to pay active tribute to the savings movement instead of just saying that they want to help but do not think they can.
§ Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 180, Noes 166.
1547| Division No. 238.] | AYES | [1.2 a.m. |
| Agnew, Commander Sir Peter | Doughty, Charles | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Kimball, Marcus |
| Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) | du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Eden, Sir John | Kirk, Peter |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Kitson, Timothy |
| Anstruther-Gray, Rt. Hn. Sir W. | Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Lagden, Godfrey |
| Astor, John | Emery, Peter | Lambton, Viscount |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Eyre, Reginald | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Awdry, Daniel | Farr, John | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry |
| Baker, W. H. K. | Fisher, Nigel | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Balniel, Lord | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles (Darwen) | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) | Longden, Gilbert |
| Barlow, Sir John | Gibson-Watt, David | Loveys, Walter H. |
| Batsford, Brian | Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan | Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) |
| Bell, Ronald | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central) | Mackie, George Y. (C'ness & S'land) |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | McLaren, Martin |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Glover, Sir Douglas | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Goodhart, Philip | Marten, Neil |
| Blaker, Peter | Goodhew, Victor | Maude, Angus |
| Box, Donald | Gower, Raymond | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. |
| Braine, Bernard | Grant, Anthony | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Brewis, John | Gresham Cooke, R. | Mills, Peter (Torrington) |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Griffiths, Peter (Smethwick) | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Monro, Hector |
| Brooke, Rt. Hn. Henry | Gurden, Harold | More, Jasper |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles |
| Bryan, Paul | Hamilton, M. (Salisbury) | Murton, Oscar |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Harris, Reader (Heston) | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael |
| Buxton, Ronald | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) | Nugent, Rt. Hn. Sir Richard |
| Campbell, Gordon | Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) | Osborn, John (Hallam) |
| Carlisle, Mark | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Hastings, Stephen | Page, R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Hawkins, Paul | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Chataway, Christopher | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward | Peel, John |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Hendry, Forbes | Peyton, John |
| Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) | Higgins, Terence L. | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Cooke, Robert | Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Corfield, F. V. | Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Costain, A. P. | Hopkins, Alan | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Courtney, Cdr. Anthony | Hornby, Richard | Redmayne, Rt. Hn. Sir Martin |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Cunningham, Sir Knox | Johnson Smith, G. (East Grinstead) | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Curran, Charles | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Jopling, Michael | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Dance, James | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) |
| Davies, Dr. Wyndham (Perry Barr) | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Roots, William |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Kerr, Sir Hamilton (Cambridge) | Sandys, Rt. Hn. D. |
| Sharples, Richard | Thorpe, Jeremy | Whitelaw, William |
| Sinclair, Sir George | Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) | Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter) |
| Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick) | Tilney, John (Wavertree) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Soames, Rt. Hn. Christopher | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Speir, Sir Rupert | van Straubenzee, W. R. | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Stainton, Keith | Walder, David (High Peak) | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| Stanley, Hn. Richard | Walker, Peter (Worcester) | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) | Wall, Patrick | Yates, William (The Wrekin) |
| Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) | Walters, Dennis | Younger, Hn. George |
| Temple, John M. | Ward, Dame Irene | |
| Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury) | Webster, David | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) | Wells, John (Maidstone) | Mr. Ian MacArthur and Mr. Pym. |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Newens, Stan |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Hamilton, William (West Fife) | Norwood, Christopher |
| Alldritt, Walter | Hamling, William (Woolwich, W.) | Oakes, Gordon |
| Atkinson, Norman | Hannan, William | Ogden, Eric |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Harper, Joseph | O'Malley, Brian |
| Baxter, William | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Orme, Stanley |
| Bence, Cyril | Hazell, Bert | Oswald, Thomas |
| Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Heffer, Eric S. | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Paget, R. T. |
| Blackburn, F. | Horner, John | Palmer, Arthur |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Pentland, Norman |
| Boardman, H. | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Rees, Merlyn |
| Bradley, Tom | Howie, W. | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Hoy, James | Richard, Ivor |
| Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan) | Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline) | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Buchan, Norman (Renfrewshire, W.) | Irving, Sydney (Dartford) | Rose, Paul B. |
| Buchanan, Richard | Jackson, Colin | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Carmichael, Neil | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Rowland, Christopher |
| Coleman, Donald | Jeger, George (Goole) | Shore, Peter (Stepney) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Short, Rt. Hn. E. (N'c'tle-on-Tyne, C.) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Silkin, John (Deptford) |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Dalyell, Tam | Kelley, Richard | Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Kenyon, Clifford | Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield) |
| de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey | Lawson, George | Small, William |
| Dell, Edmund | Leadbitter, Ted | Snow, Julian |
| Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Dodds, Norman | Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Doig, Peter | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Swain, Thomas |
| Duffy, Dr. A. E. P. | Lipton, Marcus | Swingler, Stephen |
| Dunn, James A. | Loughlin, Charles | Symonds, J. B. |
| Dunnett, Jack | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Taverne, Dick |
| Edelman, Maurice | McBride, Neil | Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | McCann, J. | Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| English, Michael | MacColl, James | Thomson, George (Dundee, E.) |
| Ennals, David | MacDermot, Niall | Tinn, James |
| Ensor, David | McGuire, Michael | Tuck, Raphael |
| Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) | McInnes, James | Urwin, T. W. |
| Fernyhough, E. | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Varley, Eric G. |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Walden, Brian (All Saints) |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Floud, Bernard | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Wallace, George |
| Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich) | Manuel, Archie | Watkins, Tudor |
| Ford, Ben | Mapp, Charles | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton) | Mayhew, Christopher | Whitlock, William |
| Freeson, Reginald | Mikardo, Ian | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Garrett, W. E. | Millan, Bruce | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Ginsburg, David | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Molloy, William | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Gregory, Arnold | Morris, Charles (Openshaw) | Woof, Robert |
| Grey, Charles | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Sheffield Pk) | Yates, Victor (Ladywood) |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Murray, Albert | |
| Hale, Leslie | Neal, Harold | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mr. George Rogers and Mr. Fitch. |
§ Question put, That the Clause be added to the Bill:—
1548§ The House divided: Ayes 180, Noes 167.
1551| Division No. 239.] | AYES | [1.14 a.m. |
| Agnew, Commander Sir Peter | Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian | Awdry, Daniel |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Anstruther-Gray, Rt. Hn. Sir W. | Baker, W. H. K. |
| Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) | Astor, John | Balniel, Lord |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Atkins, Humphrey | Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony |
| Barlow, Sir John | Grant, Anthony | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael |
| Batsford, Brian | Gresham Cooke, R. | Nugent, Rt. Hn. Sir Richard |
| Bell, Ronald | Griffiths, Peter (Smethwick) | Osborn, John (Hallam) |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Gurden, Harold | Page, R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Peel, John |
| Blaker, Peter | Hamilton, M. (Salisbury) | Peyton, John |
| Box, Donald | Harris, Reader (Heston) | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Braine, Bernard | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Brewis, John | Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter | Hastings, Stephen | Redmayne, Rt. Hn. Sir Martin |
| Brooke, Rt. Hn. Henry | Hawkins, Paul | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Hendry, Forbes | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Bryan, Paul | Higgins, Terence L. | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) | Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) |
| Buxton, Ronald | Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John | Roots, William |
| Campbell, Gordon | Hopkins, Alan | Sandys, Rt. Hn. D. |
| Carlisle, Mark | Hornby, Richard | Sharples, Richard |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Johnson Smith, G. (East Grinstead) | Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick) |
| Chataway Christopher | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Soames, Rt. Hn. Christopher |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Jopling, Michael | Speir, Sir Rupert |
| Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Stainton, Keith |
| Cooke, Robert | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Stanley, Hn. Richard |
| Corfield, F. V. | Kerr, Sir Hamilton (Cambridge) | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Costain, A. P. | Kershaw, Anthony | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) |
| Courtney, Cdr. Anthony | Kimball, Marcus | Temple, John M. |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury) |
| Cunningham, Sir Knox | Kirk, Peter | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Curran, Charles | Kitson, Timothy | Thorpe, Jeremy |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lagden, Godfrey | Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) |
| Dance, James | Lambton, Viscount | Tilney, John (Wavertree) |
| Davies, Dr. Wyndham (Perry Barr) | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Doughty, Charles | ||
| Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Walder, David (High Peak) |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) | Walker, Peter (Worcester) |
| Eden, Sir John | Longden, Gilbert | Wall, Patrick |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Loveys, Walter H. | Walters, Dennis |
| Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Emery, Peter | Mackie, George Y. (C'ness & S'land) | Webster, David |
| Eyre, Reginald | McLaren, Martin | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Farr, John | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain | Whitelaw, William |
| Fisher, Nigel | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest | Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter) |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles (Darwen) | Marten, Neil | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) | Maude, Angus | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central) | Mills, Peter (Torrington) | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Miscampbell, Norman | Yates, William (The Wrekin) |
| Glover, Sir Douglas | Monro, Hector | Younger, Hn. George |
| Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | More, Jasper | |
| Goodhart, Philip | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Goodhew, Victor | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Mr. Ian MacArthur and Mr. Pym. |
| Gower, Raymond | Murton, Oscar | |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Ford, Ben |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton) |
| Alldritt, Walter | Dalyell, Tam | Freeson, Reginald |
| Atkinson, Norman | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Garrett, W. E. |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey | Ginsburg, David |
| Baxter, William | Dell, Edmund | Gourlay, Harry |
| Bence, Cyril | Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony |
| Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Dodds, Norman | Gregory, Arnold |
| Bishop, E. S. | Doig, Peter | Grey, Charles |
| Blackburn, F. | Duffy, Dr. A. E. P. | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Dunn, James A. | Hale, Leslie |
| Boardman, H. | Dunnett, Jack | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) |
| Bradley, Tom | Edelman, Maurice | Hamilton, William (West Fife) |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Hamling, William (Woolwich, W.) |
| Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | English, Michael | Hannan, William |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan) | Ennals, David | Harper, Joseph |
| Buchan, Norman (Renfrewshire, W.) | Ensor, David | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) |
| Buchanan, Richard | Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) | Hazell, Bert |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Fernyhough, E. | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Carmichael, Neil | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret |
| Coleman, Donald | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Horner, John |
| Conlan, Bernard | Floud, Bernard | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich) | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) |
| Howie, W. | Mayhew, Christopher | Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.) |
| Hoy, James | Mikardo, lan | Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield) |
| Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Millan, Bruce | Small, William |
| Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline) | Miller, Dr. M. S. | Snow, Julian |
| Irving, Sydney (Dartford) | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Jackson, Colin | Molloy, William | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Morris, Charles (Openshaw) | Swain, Thomas |
| Jeger, George (Goole) | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Sheffield Pk) | Swingler, Stephen |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Murray, Albert | Symonds, J. B. |
| Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Neal, Harold | Taverne, Dick |
| Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Newens, Stan | Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) | Norwood, Christopher | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Kelley, Richard | Oakes, Gordon | Thomson, George (Dundee, E.) |
| Kenyon, Clifford | Ogden, Eric | Tinn, James |
| Lawson, George | O'Malley, Brian | Tuck, Raphael |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Orme, Stanley | Urwin, T. W. |
| Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Oswald, Thomas | Varley, Eric G. |
| Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) | Walden, Brian (All Saints) |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Paget, R. T. | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Lipton, Marcus | Palmer, Arthur | Wallace, George |
| Loughlin, Charles | Pentland, Norman | Watkins, Tudor |
| Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Rees, Merlyn | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| McBride, Neil | Rhodes, Geoffrey | Whitlock, William |
| McCann, J. | Richard, Ivor | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| MacColl, James | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| MacDermot, Niall | Rodgers, William (Stockton) | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| McGuire, Michael | Rose, Paul B. | Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.) |
| McInnes, James | Ross, Rt. Hn. William | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Rowland, Christopher | Woof, Robert |
| Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Shore, Peter (Stepney) | Yates, Victor (Ladywood) |
| Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Short, Rt. Hn. E. (N'c'tle-on-Tyne, C.) | |
| Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Silkin, John (Deptford) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Manuel, Archie | Silverman, Julius (Aston) | Mr. George Rogers and Mr. Fitch. |
| Mapp, Charles | Skeffington, Arthur |
§ Mr. Sydney Irving (Treasurer of Her Majesty's Household)I beg to move,
That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned.
§ Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Dr. Horace King)Order. I have from both sides of the House the same Motion. I must take that which came first.
§ Mr. Reginald Freeson (Willesden, East)On a point of order—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I think that I am being addressed on a point of order.
§ Mr. FreesonMy point of order, Sir, is that I heard an hon. Member on the Opposition side using the word "ratting".
§ Mr. SpeakerLet there be order. I must hear the point.
§ Mr. FreesonI wish to ask for your guidance, Sir, and perhaps I might have quiet while making my point of order. [Interruption.] With the permission of the gentlemanly party opposite, I would like your guidance on whether it is correct to use that kind of language. [HON. MEMBERS: "What language?"] I distinctly heard the remark thrown across the Chamber, not once, not twice, but three or four times, that hon. Members on this side, in particular the Prime Minister, were ratting.
§ Mr. SpeakerWhat is the point of order?
§ Mr. FreesonIt is to ask whether that is appropriate and orderly language in this Chamber.
§ Mr. SpeakerI think that we have heard a lot worse. The language is slightly agricultural, but we had better tolerate it.
§ Mr. HeathDuring the last few minutes the Government have been defeated by majorities which, in this Parliament, are substantial. As a result, a Clause of considerable importance has now been added to the Bill. It affects hundreds and thousands of small savers and investors who invest in unit and 1553 investment trusts and for whom the rate of Capital Gains Tax will now be the same as for individuals. This has, therefore, achieved one of our objectives, persistently argued throughout the whole of the Committee stage and throughout the Report stage, that there should be special treatment for small savers.
This is a thesis which the Chief Secretary and, indeed, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the whole of the Treasury Bench have constantly rejected. Now, as a result of the vote of both Opposition parties, the Government have been defeated, and immediately they have rushed for cover. It is well known in the House that the Government wished to go further tonight than the new Clauses, but, as a result of these defeats, they have put up a Whip to move that further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned. They realise that they have lost control of the House. They have lost their majority and can no longer continue their business.
This is the second occasion today on which it has happened, both within the remembrance of the House. The Leader of the House of Commons was himself repudiated by a large part of his own party.
The Government and their supporters have been twice trounced this morning. Where is the Prime Minister? Only 10 days ago, in Glasgow, he was boasting of their achievement in carrying through the Committee stage of the Finance Bill, and he added:
If we can get the Finance Bill through with this majority, we can get anything through.The Government have not got it through as they wanted it, so the lie is thrown in the Prime Minister's teeth. He cannot get it through. Therefore, he cannot get anything through, and the Government have admitted it.The lesson will be drawn by the country. The Government, who are trying to force through a Finance Bill which the country does not want, have now been twice defeated. The Government have very quickly drawn the lesson themselves. The country will follow. The lesson for the Government is plain. They should resign, and resign quickly. The country can then pass its verdict upon them.
§ 1.30 a.m.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. James Callaghan)For a right hon. Gentleman who is claiming a great triumph, the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) seemed very grim in all that he has just said. There was not even a smile or a flicker of triumph across his face, so intense was his determination to enjoy the battle. He has won a great victory. Why does he not cheer up? [HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."] We have plenty of time.
There is all the rest of tonight if hon. Members do not want to go home. We are quite ready to serve the House. If hon. Members do not want to go home, let us go on. There is no difficulty about that. The right hon. Gentleman seems to be enjoying himself now that he has sat down. I wish that he had enjoyed himself more when he stood up. I do not quite know what was the point of his intervention. Is he saying that he wants us to go on, or that he wants us to go home? [HON. MEMBERS: "Resign."] Before we decide that question, we had better decide what the Opposition want to do tonight—to go on or to go home? Which is it? I know what most of them really want to do. They want to go home to bed.
§ Mr. CallaghanI am delighted to see the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) with us. There is at least one total abstainer in the House tonight. I am very glad indeed to have him here. [Interruption.] I do not know whether it is possible to make a connected speech when the Conservative Party are in this mood, but as far as I am concerned, I am in possession of the Dispatch Box and I am quite happy to remain in possession of it, certainly for the time it takes to quieten hon. Members opposite, so that we can decide what to do.
The Opposition have, after a succession of over 90, won a victory—[HON. MEMBERS: "Two".] I beg their pardon; they have won two victories. The score is now 93 to 2. That is not a bad tally. If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bexley and his right hon. and hon. Friends wish to continue with the debate on the Bill, then we will do so for so long as they like. If they 1555 wish to carry on, then we on this side will be very happy to do so. [Interruption.] All hon. Members opposite seem to want to do is to score a false stratagem. They have got their victory, and now we can proceed with the Bill.
There is much more to discuss, and much to debate, and as the right hon. Gentleman does not appear to wish to go home, then I suggest that we continue with the debate—[Interruption.] I did not catch what that was, but I can tell hon. Members that we are running rather later than both sides expected to do. As the right hon. Gentleman has just said, we have not got all the business we expected. I should have thought, therefore, that there was every reason for continuing with the debate and getting
§ as much business completed as we possibly can tonight.
§ I hope that we can now proceed with the discussion on the Bill.
§ Mr. SpeakerI think that the right hon. Gentleman requires the leave of the House.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe indications are that the right hon. Gentleman does not have the leave of the House.
§ Question put, That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 180, Noes 167.
1557| Division No. 240.] | AYES | [1.37 a.m. |
| Agnew, Commander Sir Peter | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry |
| Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) | Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) | Emery, Peter | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) |
| Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) | Eyre, Reginald | Longden, Gilbert |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian | Farr, John | Loveys, Walter H. |
| Anstruther-Gray, Rt. Hn. Sir W. | Fisher, Nigel | MacArthur, Ian |
| Astor, John | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles (Darwen) | Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) | Mackie, George Y. (C'ness & S'land) |
| Awdry, Daniel | Gibson-Watt, David | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain |
| Baker, W. H. K. | Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan | Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest |
| Balniel, Lord | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central) | Marten, Neil |
| Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Maude, Angus |
| Barlow, Sir John | Glover, Sir Douglas | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. |
| Batsford, Brian | Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Bell, Ronald | Goodhart, Philip | Mills, Peter (Torrington) |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) | Goodhew, Victor | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Berry, Hn. Anthony | Gower, Raymond | Monro, Hector |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Grant, Anthony | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Gresham Cooke, R. | Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles |
| Blaker, Peter | Griffiths, Peter (Smethwick) | Murton, Oscar |
| Box, Donald | Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. | Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael |
| Braine, Bernard | Gurden, Harold | Nugent, Rt. Hn. Sir Richard |
| Brewis, John | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Osborn, John (Hallam) |
| Brinton, Sir Tatton | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Page, John (Harrow, W.) |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter | Hamilton, M. (Salisbury) | Page, R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Brooke, Rt. Hn. Henry | Harris, Reader (Heston) | Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) | Peel, John |
| Bruce-Gardyne, J. | Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) | Peyton, John |
| Bryan, Paul | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Hastings, Stephen | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Buxton, Ronald | Hawkins, Paul | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Campbell, Gordon | Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward | Pym, Francis |
| Carlisle, Mark | Hendry, Forbes | Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James |
| Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert | Higgins, Terence L. | Redmayne, Rt. Hn. Sir Martin |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) | |
| Chataway, Christopher | Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Hopkins, Alan | Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David |
| Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) | Hornby, Richard | Ridley, Hn. Nicholas |
| Cooke, Robert | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Corfield, F. V. | Johnson Smith, G. (East Grinstead) | Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) |
| Costain, A. P. | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Roots, William |
| Courtney, Cdr. Anthony | Jopling, Michael | Sandys, Rt. Hn. D. |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver | Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith | Sharples, Richard |
| Cunningham, Sir Knox | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Curran, Charles | Kerr, Sir Hamilton (Cambridge) | Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Kershaw, Anthony | Soames, Rt. Hn. Christopher |
| Dance, James | Kimball, Marcus | Speir, Sir Rupert |
| Davies, Dr. Wyndham (Perry Barr) | King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) | Stainton, Keith |
| Dodds-Parker, Douglas | Kirk, Peter | Stanley, Hn. Richard |
| Doughty, Charles | Kitson, Timothy | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec | Lagden, Godfrey | Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) |
| du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward | Lambton, Viscount | Temple, John M. |
| Eden, Sir John | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury) |
| Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) | Wall, Patrick | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Thorpe, Jeremy | Walters, Dennis | Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard |
| Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) | Ward, Dame Irene | Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher |
| Tilney, John (Wavertree) | Webster, David | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. | Wells, John (Maidstone) | Yates, William (The Wrekin) |
| van Straubenzee, W. R. | Whitelaw, William | Younger, Hn. George |
| Walder, David (High Peak) | Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter) | |
| Walker, Peter (Worcester) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mr. McLaren and Mr. More. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Hale, Leslie | Newens, Stan |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Norwood, Christopher |
| Alldritt, Walter | Hamilton, William (West Fife) | Oakes, Gordon |
| Atkinson, Norman | Hamling, William (Woolwich, W.) | Ogden, Eric |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Hannan, William | O'Malley, Brian |
| Baxter, William | Harper, Joseph | Orme, Stanley |
| Bence, Cyril | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Oswald, Thomas |
| Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Hazell, Bert | Page, Derek (King's Lynn) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Heffer, Eric S. | Paget, R. T. |
| Blackburn, F. | Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret | Palmer, Arthur |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Horner, John | Pentland, Norman |
| Boardman, H. | Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Rees, Merlyn |
| Bradley, Tom | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Rhodes, Geoffrey |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Howie, W. | Richards, Ivor |
| Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) | Hoy, James | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan) | Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Buchan, Norman (Renfrewshire, W.) | Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline) | Rose, Paul B. |
| Buchanan, Richard | Irving, Sydney (Dartford) | Ross, Rt. Hn. William |
| Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James | Jackson, Colin | Rowland, Christopher |
| Carmichael, Neil | Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas | Shore, Peter (Stepney) |
| Coleman, Donald | Jeger, George (Goole) | Short, Rt. Hn. E. (N'c'tle-on-Tyne, C.) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Silkin, John (Duptford) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) | Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Kelley, Richard | Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Kenyon, Clifford | Small, William |
| de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey | Leadbitter, Ted | Snow, Julian |
| Dell, Edmund | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.) |
| Diamond, Rt. Hn. John | Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) | Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley |
| Dodds, Norman | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Swain, Thomas |
| Doig, Peter | Lipton, Marcus | Swingler, Stephen |
| Duffy, Dr. A. E. P. | Loughlin, Charles | Symonds, J. B. |
| Dunn, James A. | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Taverne, Dick |
| Dunnett, Jack | McBride, Neil | Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Edelman, Maurice | McCann, J. | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | MacColl, James | Thomson, George (Dundee, E.) |
| English, Michael | MacDermot, Niall | Tinn, James |
| Ennals, David | McGuire, Michael | Tuck, Raphael |
| Ensor, David | McInnes, James | Urwin, T. W. |
| Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) | Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) | Varley, Eric G. |
| Fernyhough, E. | Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) | Walden, Brian (All Saints) |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Mahon, Simon (Bootle) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Wallace, George | |
| Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Watkins, Tudor |
| Floud, Bernard | Manuel, Archie | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich) | Mapp, Charles | Whitlock, William |
| Ford, Ben | Mayhew, Christopher | Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.) |
| Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton) | Mikardo, Ian | Williams, Clifford (Abertillery) |
| Freeson, Reginald | Millan, Bruce | Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin) |
| Garrett, W. E. | Miller, Dr. M. S. | |
| Ginsburg, David | Milne, Edward (Blyth) | Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Molloy, William | Wilson, William (Coventry, S.) |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony | Morris, Charles (Openshaw) | Woof, Robert |
| Gregory, Arnold | Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Sheffield Pk) | Yates, Victor (Ladywood) |
| Grey, Charles | Murray, Albert | |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Neal, Harold | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mr. Lawson and Mr. George Rogers. |
§ Mr. SpeakerConsideration to be resumed what day?
§ Mr. George Rogers (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury)Tomorrow, Sir.
§ Mr. SpeakerThis day.
§ Bill, as amended, to be further considered this day.
1558§ Mr. CallaghanWe will beat you next time, too.