§ 7.45 p.m.
§ Mr. PrenticeI beg to move, in page 3, line 1, to leave out "This Act" and to insert:
The provisions of this Act (other than those contained in sections 15, 16, 17, 20, 25 to 34, 53 and 54)",We now move to a rather different stage of our proceedings, having thus far been mainly concerned with accepting from the Government Amendments which met or partially met points made from this side in Committee. We now move to a rather more controversial phase of our proceedings and the Amendment is a controversial one.We on this side do not like the Clause in any event. It states that where nobody is employed on the premises other than a whole list of relations of the employer, the Bill shall not apply to the premises. The relations who are specified are a husband, wife, parent, grandparent, son, daughter, grandchild, brother or sister of the person by whom they are employed. 492 In Committee, we sought to reduce that list of relatives, but we were defeated. We also voted against the Clause and, again, we were defeated.
Now we propose something different. We propose to limit the application of the Clause to those parts of the Bill which deal with welfare and health provisions and we seek to exclude it from applying to the safety and fire precaution provisions of the Bill. To be fair, we have to admit that from the ventilation, cleanliness and similar aspects, it is possible to have two views about the duty of a man who employs his relatives, In Committee, the view was put by the Minister, although we did not accept it that on such matters it would be an interference by the State in family relationships for legislation to apply. We now suggest that special considerations are involved when dealing with the safety provisions and the fire precautions in the Bill.
As to the safety provisions, I have often drawn attention, and have done so again today, to the fact that safety matters must be considered against the background of the rising number of accidents at work, including the increasing number of accidents at work in the kinds of premises covered by the Bill. It is vital that anyone who employs somebody else, even if it is a relative, should maintain the safety provisions specified in the Bill concerning, for example, machinery. If one considers the fencing of bacon slicers, coffee grinders and the conditions in which they may be used, the duty that a man owes to his sister or his grandchild, if he employs these relations, should be just as rigid and should be defined by law just as though he were employing somebody else.
The same arguments apply to fire risks. We are concerned to reduce fire risks in offices, shops and railway premises. When talking about fire risks, we are talking not only of those who are employed in the premises, although the Bill is designed to protect them. It affects also people who may be working or living next door or, for example, living in a flat above a shop. The standards which we lay down should be rigid and we should not apply exemptions for people who employ their relatives.
I do not propose to develop the case. It was made in Committee but was not 493 accepted. I merely repeat our main points. The Government should accept our Amendment. If not, we shall certainly press it to a Division. We invite the support of hon. Members opposite in these matters in which we are concerned with the safety of people and in which the standards specified by law should not be modified in the way that the Clause as it stands modifies them.
§ Mr. WhitelawAm I right, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in assuming that with this Amendment we are discussing also the next one, which goes with it, in pace 3, line 2, leave out "it" and insert "they"?
§ Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Robert Grimston)That is so.
§ Mr. J. HyndI urge the Minister to consider accepting the Amendment which has been so ably explained by my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice). This matter was discussed very much in Committee. The attention of the House should be drawn to the long list of relatives who can be employed in a shop or office in all manner of capacities and who, in total, could represent a considerable staff.
I know that many hon. Members have, as I have, visited Chinese restaurants, where we find, perhaps, a staff of fifteen or twenty people who look almost identical, as though born on the same day, and who are all like brothers and sisters, and we sometimes find to our surprise that two of them are the parents. But they could all be members of the same family. Whether they are or are not does not matter to me. What matters to me is that if there is a staff of five, six or seven people, or more, they are entitled to the same kinds of conditions as anybody else, and it really does seem to be going too far to exempt from the provisions of the Bill any office or shop where there is such a number of people employed—or maybe only three or four—just because they happen to be relatives of the owner of the shop. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will sympathetically consider the Amendment.
§ Mr. WhitelawThe hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice), as always, has stated the position about this Amendment and about the Clause it concerns both fairly and correctly. We were 494 unable to agree on similar provisions in Committee; we were unable to agree on the Clause itself. I should like to start by saying at once that my right hon. Friend and I and everyone on this side of the House are absolutely at one with the hon. Member on the need to do everything we can to reduce accidents, to reduce risks from fire, and, of course, to promote both safety and first-aid. Where we differ here is purely on the question as to whether the best safeguard for close relatives is, in fact, the law or the family relationship itself.
I accept at once that the hon. Member says, as he said in Committee, that the family relationship should be defined and actually put into law. I am afraid I must take the opposite view. I believe that it would be wrong to subject those small concerns where only close relatives are employed to the apparatus of enforcement and inspection even in as far as the new, limited provisions which are put forward in this Amendment are concerned. As the hon. Member said these are much more limited than those put forward in the Committee.
However, I am afraid that here we have a fundamental disagreement. I do not think it is worth arguing the point further. The hon. Member for East Ham, North and the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) believe that this Bill should be used in the case of those small concerns where only close relatives are employed. My right hon. Friend and my hon. Friends and I think differently. We do not believe that this should be the case. We believe that the close family relationship is the right safeguard, and on those grounds I must resist this Amendment.
§ Mr. J. HyndIt is very difficult to understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying, because what he said was that he thinks that the family relationship is the right safeguard; in other words, that that is a better method of ensuring these conditions than bringing in the whole apparatus of the Bill, Surely, however, if it is the case that the family relationship guarantees maintenance of these safeguards, if he has confidence in the family relationship, and if he is right, there will be no such cases in which the apparatus of the Bill will be brought into play. What we are trying to provide for is the situation where for any reason the 495 family influence breaks down, and that then this Bill ought to be effective.
§ Mr. WhitelawIf I may say so to the hon. Member, that is not quite what he is doing. He is going a great deal further than that. He is insisting that, whether the family relationship is right or whether it is not, the apparatus of the Bill will
§ be brought in. It is this principle which, I am afraid, I cannot accept, and it is on this ground that I resist the Amendment.
§ Question put, That "This Act" stand part of the Bill:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 189, Noes 150.
497| Division No. 69.] | AYES | [7.55 p.m. |
| Agnew, Sir Peter | Green, Alan | Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael |
| Allason, James | Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. | Oakshott, Sir Hendrie |
| Arbuthnot, John | Gurden, Harold | Osborn, John (Hallam) |
| Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham) | Hall, John (Wycombe) | Page, Graham (Crosby) |
| Barlow, Sir John | Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) | Partridge, E. |
| Batsford, Brian | Hare, Rt. Hon. John | Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate) | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) | Peel, John |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhn) | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Percival, Ian |
| Berkeley, Humphry | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) | Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth |
| Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) | Pike, Miss Mervyn |
| Biffen, John | Harvie Anderson, Miss | Pilkington, Sir Richard |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Hastings, Stephen | Pitt, Dame Edith |
| Bingham, R. M. | Hay, John | Pott, Percivall |
| Bishop, F. P. | Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel | Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch |
| Bossom, Clive | Hendry, Forbes | Price, David (Eastle[...]gh) |
| Bourne-Arton, A. | Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe) | Prior, J. M, L. |
| Box, Donald | Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) | Prior-Palmer, Brig, Sir Otho |
| Braine, Bernard | Hirst, Geoffrey | Pym, Francis |
| Brewis, John | Hobson, Sir John | Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin |
| Brown, Alan (Tottenham) | Hocking, Philip N. | Ridley, Hon. Nicholas |
| Bryan, Paul | Holland, Philip | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Buck, Antony | Hollingworth, John | Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) |
| Bullard, Denys | Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P. | Russell, Ronald |
| Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) | Howard, John (Southampton, Test) | St. Clair, M. |
| Carr, Compton (Barons Court) | Hughes-Young, Michael | Seymour, Leslie |
| Cary, Sir Robert | Hulbert, Sir Norman | Sharples, Richard |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick) |
| Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) | Iremonger, T. L. | Smithers, Peter |
| Cleaver, Leonard | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John |
| Cole, Norman | James, David | Spearman, Sir Alexander |
| Cooke, Robert | Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) | Spelr Rupert |
| Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. | Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) | Stevens, Geoffrey |
| Cordle, John | Johnson, Eric (Blackley) | Storey, Sir Samuel |
| Corfield, F. V. | Johnson Smith, Geoffrey | Studholme, Sir Henry |
| Coulson, Michael | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | Talbot, John E. |
| Courtney, Cdr. Anthony | Kerans, Cdr. J. S. | Taylor, Edwin (Bolton E.) |
| Craddock, Sir Beresford | Kershaw, Anthony | Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side) |
| Critchley, Julian | Kirk, Peter | Teeling, Sir William |
| Cunningham, Knox | Kitson, Timothy | Temple, John M. |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Leather, Sir Edwin | Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Leburn, Gllmour | Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) |
| Dance, James | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Lilley, F. J. p. | Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon |
| Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F. | Lindsay, Sir Martin | Turner, Colin |
| du Cann, Edward | Longden, Gilbert | Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H. |
| Duncan, Sir James | Loveys, Walter H. | Tweedsmuir, Lady |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | van straubenzee, W. R. |
| Elliott, R. W. (Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.) | MacArthur, Ian | Vane, W. M. F. |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Maddan, Martin | Wakefield, Sir Wavell |
| Farey-Jones, F. W. | Maitland, Sir John | Walder, David |
| Farr, John | Markham, Major Sir Frank | Walker, Peter |
| Finlay, Graeme | Marten, Neil | Wall, Patrick |
| Fisher, Nigel | Mathew, Robert (Honiton) | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) | Matthews, Gordon (Meriden) | Webster, David |
| Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Gammans, Lady | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Whitelaw, William |
| George, Sir John (Pollok) | Mills, Stratton | Williams, Dudley (Exeter) |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Miscampbell, Norman | Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.) |
| Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk Central) | Montgomery, Fergus | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Goodhart, Philip | Morgan, William | Woollam, John |
| Goodhew, Victor | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Worsley, Marcus |
| Gower, Raymond | Neave, Alrey | |
| Grant-Ferris, R. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: | |
| Mr. McLaren and Mr. Rees. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Ainsley, William | Harper, Joseph | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Hart, Mrs. Judith | Pentland, Norman |
| Awbery, Stan (Bristol Central) | Hayman, F. H. | Popplewell, Ernest |
| Bacon, Miss Alice | Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (RwlyRegis) | Prentice, R. E. |
| Barnett, Guy | Holman, Percy | Pursey, Cmdr. Harry |
| Beaney, Alan | Holt, Arthur | Rankin, John |
| Bence, Cyril | Houghton, Douglas | Redhead, E. C. |
| Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) |
| Benson, Sir George | Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Blackburn, F. | Hunter A. E. | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) |
| Blyton, William | Hynd, H. (Accrington) | Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton) |
| Boardman, H. | Hynd, John (Attercliffe) | Roots, William |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. | Irving, Sydney (Dartford) | Short, Edward |
| Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics, S.W.) | Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan) | Jeger, George | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) |
| Bowles, Frank | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Boyden, James | Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield) | Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.) |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield) |
| Brockway, A. Fanner | Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.) | Small, William |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | ||
| Brown, Thomas (Ince) | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Smith, Eills (Stoke, S.) |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank |
| Castle, Mrs. Barbara | Kelley, Richard | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Collick, Percy | King, Dr. Horace | Steele, Thomas |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Lawson, George | Stewart, Michael (Fulham) |
| Cronin, John | Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Swingler, Stephen |
| Crosland, Anthony | Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) | Taverne, D. |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Lubbock, Eric | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline) |
| Darling, George | McCann, John | Thomson, G. M. (Dundee E.) |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | MacDermot, Niall | Thornton, Ernest |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | McInnes, James | Tomney, Frank |
| Delargy, Hugh | McKay, John (Wallsend) | Wade, Donald |
| Dempsey, James | MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Diamond, John | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Warbey, William |
| Dodds, Norman | Manuel, Archie | Watkins, Tudor |
| Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) | Mapp, Charles | Whitlock, William |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Marsh, Richard | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Finch, Harold | Mason, Roy | Willey, Frederick |
| Fitch, Alan | Mendelson, J, J. | Williams, D. J. (Neath) |
| Fletcher, Eric | Millan, Bruce | Williams, Ll. (Abertillery) |
| Forman, J. C. | Milne, Edward | Williams, W. R. (Openshaw) |
| Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) | Mitchison, G. R. | Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. | Moody, A. S. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Moyle, Arthur | Winterbottom, R. E. |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Mulley, Frederick | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Griffiths, W. (Exchange) | Neal, Harold | Woof, Robert |
| Grimond, Rt. Hon. J. | Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) | Yates, Victor (Ladywood) |
| Gunter, Ray | Oram, A. E. | |
| Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) | Oswald, Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Hamilton, William (West Fife) | Padley, W. E. | Mr. Charles A. Howell and |
| Hannan, William | Parker, John | Mr. Grey. |