§ 3.37 p.m.
§ Mr. James Boyden (Bishop Auckland)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to compel companies to publish details of all gifts to political parties.I am sure that my proposed Bill will command the support of the whole House. Hon. Members opposite very frequently advise members of the public to invest in companies; it might, indeed, be said that they advocate a shareholding democracy. That being so, it is quite intolerable that directors of companies, who stand in much the same position as do trustees in respect of the money given into their charge, should spend their shareholders' money in gifts to political parties, something of which many of their shareholders would not approve if the matter were made public.In these days of complicated relationships between business firms and Government, and between businesses and the employees that the firms employ, it is quite right and proper that the wishes of employees should be taken into consideration.
Some hon. Gentlemen on this side of the Chamber advocate profit sharing, so that interest in what the directors of a company do with their shareholders' money is very wide indeed, and it is quite intolerable that directors of companies should please themselves how they use their shareholders' money in relation to political parties.
My Bill would ask only that information should be published so that the shareholders and employees should know what is going on. This is a small matter, but it is a very proper subject for a private Member to introduce. Indeed, on Fridays we hear the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Dudley Williams) and his "Friday men" advocate that Private Members' Bills should be subject to great scrutiny in the House. If it is right and proper that such Bills should be subject to this scrutiny, surely it is right and proper that when companies are using money for political purposes their shareholders and employees should know what is happening.
This is a narrow point of justice for the people who invest money, but behind 1341 it there is a very much more important general political point. This House is very proud of how, over the years, in a practical way, it has grafted democracy on to existing institutions. Many of us from time to time take visitors round the House. We draw their attention to some of the glorious events in the history of the House when people stood for principles and great principles were established, such as the 1832 Reform Act, from which a long succession of reforms were brought about, bringing the vote to the ordinary people.
It is not much use the ordinary citizen merely having a vote unless he has access to the fullest amount of information about what the parties stand for. My Bill would do something to show the connection between certain companies and certain parties and the actions which follow from certain payments. Last night, in the House, several of my hon. Friends developed this point at length in relation to certain companies. I only make the point of principle that the ordinary citizen, in these days of mass information media, has great difficulty in ascertaining the true facts about what political parties stand for and what political actions they propose to take. My Bill would do something to uncover a subject which was described last night as murky and dark.
During the last few years, especially, there has been great apprehension among the public about the powers which certain individuals have over the forming of public opinion. The Pilkington Report deplores that newspaper magnates should have too much power over public opinion-forming in newspapers and on television and advised that steps be taken to diffuse the power of public opinion-forming so that no man should have too much power. Yet in the ordinary commercial field nobody knows how much of the shareholder's money is used to create a climate of opinion which will produce certain political actions. It is no use a man having a vote if another man has newspapers and television and shouts so loud that the little man's voice is drowned.
Not only is there a voice behind the scenes, but nobody, not even the right hon. and learned Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd), is in a position to know 1342 exactly what goes on. I should have thought that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be the keenest supporter of the Measure so that he might know exactly where the money comes from and so that justice might be done.
§ Mr. James Callaghan (Cardiff, South-East)The right hon. and learned Member does not want to know.
§ Mr. BoydenThere is a widespread opinion that those working behind the scenes, the faceless men, should not have too much influence. My Bill would merely ask that the public should know, in this House, if a man has an interest he must declare it. This practice runs right through public life. In local government, when a council's housing policy is being discussed, a councillor who is a tenant of the council declares his interest.
I have always thought it peculiar that such a fuss should be made about a council house, and about such a man having a vote, when the rent is raised by Is., when, at the same time, there can be on the council a building contractor who may not be immediately concerned with that issue, but is concerned with the broader issue of building perhaps 300 houses and may subsequently have a contract. If he is concerned with a particular contract he declares an interest, of course.
The Bill would attempt to bring order into this chaos. Henry VII had an effective way of dealing with over-mighty subjects. He either put them in the Tower or chopped their heads off. In these days an over-mighty subject uses his shareholders' money to influence decisions in favour of his company and then finds himself in the House of Lords. There may be no connection at all between these things. It may be an accident that money given to a particular political objective is rewarded in this way, but at least the public are entitled to know how the money goes. I should have thought that every reputable company would be anxious to support my Bill so that it could clear its own name.
§ 3.39 p.m.
§ Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Bromley-Davenport (Knutsford)I should like to suggest to the House, with great respect, that the speech to which we have just 1343 listened is a lot of nonsense. We debated this question twice last night.
§ Mr. Arthur Lewis (West Ham, North)The hon. and gallant Member did not.
§ Sir W. Bromley-DavenportThe hon. Member may be right. I did not debate it, but I was here and I interrupted. We debated this question twice last night and, therefore, we have not only been listen-
§ ing to a lot of balderdash, but also wasting our time. I oppose the Motion.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business): —
§ The House divided: Ayes 147, Noes 186.
1345| Division No. 146.] | AYES | [3.46 p.m. |
| Ainsley, William | Hannan, William | Oram, A. E. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Harper, Joseph | Padley, W. E. |
| Awbery, Stan (Bristol, Central) | Hart, Mrs. Judith | Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) |
| Bacon, Miss Alice | Hayman, F. H. | Parkin, B. T. |
| Barnett, Guy | Healey, Denis | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. | Henderson,Rt.Hn.Arthur(Rwly Regis) | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) |
| Bence, Cyril | Hill, J, (Midlothian) | Peart, Frederick |
| Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Holman, Percy | Prentice, R. E. |
| Benson, Sir George | Houghton, Douglas | Pursey, Cmdr. Harry |
| Blackburn, F. | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Rankin, John |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. | Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Redhead, E. C. |
| Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics.S.W.) | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Rees, Meriyn (Leeds, S.) |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Hunter, A. E. | Reynolds, G. W. |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Hynd, H. (Accrington) | Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.) |
| Brockway, A. Fenner | Hynd, John (Attercliffe) | Ross, William |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) | Janner, Sir Barnett | Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Browne, Percy (Torrington) | Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Jones, Rt.Hn.A.Creech(Wakefield) | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Kelley, Richard | Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield) |
| Callaghan, James | Kenyon, Clifford | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Snow, Jullan |
| Chapman, Donald | King, Dr. Horace | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank |
| Collick, Percy | Lawson, George | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Steele, Thomas |
| Dalyell, Tam | Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) | Stewart, Michael (Fulham) |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) | Stones, William |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Lipton, Marcus | Stress, Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.) |
| Deer, George | Loughlin, Charles | Taverne, D. |
| Dempsey, James | Lubbock, Eric | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Diamond, John | McBride, N. | Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline) |
| Dodds, Norman | McCann, John | Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.) |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | MacColl, James | Thornton, Ernest |
| Ede, Rt. Hon. C. | McInnes, James | Thorpe, Jeremy |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | McKay, John (Wallsend) | Wade, Donald |
| Edwards, Walter (Stepney) | Mahon, Simon | Warbey, William |
| Fernyhough, E. | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Wells, Percy (Faversham) |
| Finch, Harold | Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.) | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Fitch, Alan | Manuel, Archie | Whitlock, William |
| Fletcher, Eric | Mapp, Charles | Wigg, George |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Mason, Roy | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Forman, J. C. | Mayhew, Christopher | Williams, D. J. (Neath) |
| Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) | Mendelson, J. J. | Williams, W. R. (Openshaw) |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Millan, Bruce | Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Ginsburg, David | Milne, Edward | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Mitchison, G. R. | Winterbottom, R. E. |
| Greenwood, Anthony | Monstow, Walter | Woof, Robert |
| Grey, Charles | Moody, A. S. | Wyatt, Woodrow |
| Grimond, Rt. Hon. J. | Morris, John | |
| Gunter, Ray | Noel-Baker,Rt.Hn.Phillp(Darby,S.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) | O'Malley, B. K. | Mr. Boyden and |
| Mr. William Hamilton. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Allason, James | Black, Sir Cyril | Cary, Sir Robert |
| Arbuthnot, John | Bourne-Arton, A. | Channon, H. P, G. |
| Ashton, Sir Hubert | Box, Donald | Chichester-Clark, R. |
| Balniel, Lord | Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John | Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.) |
| Barber, Anthony | Braine, Bernard | Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) |
| Barlow, Sir John | Brooman-White, R.… | Cleaver, Leonard |
| Barter, John | Brown, Alan (Tottenham) | Cooke, Robert |
| Batsford, Brian | Bryan, Paul | Cooper, A. E. |
| Bennett, F. M. (Torquay) | Bullus, Wing Commander Erie | Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm) | Burden, P. A. | Costain, A. P. |
| Bitten, John | Butcher, Sir Herbert | Coulson, Michael |
| Birch. Rt. Hon. Nigel | Carr, Compton (Barons Court) | Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) |
| Curran, Charles | Kerr, Sir Hamilton | Pym, Francis |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Kershaw, Anthony | Ramsden, James |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Kitson, Timothy | Rawlinson, Sir Peter |
| Drayson, G. B. | Leavey, J. A. | Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin |
| du Cann, Edward | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Rees, Hugh (Swansea, W.) |
| Duncan, Sir James | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Eden, Sir John | Linstead, Sir Hugh | Robson Brown, Sir William |
| Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Litchfield, Capt. John | Russell, Ronald |
| Emery, Peter | Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral) | Scott-Hopkins, James |
| Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn | Longbottom, Charles | Sharples, Richard |
| Errington, Sir Eric | Longden, Gilbert | Shaw, M. |
| Farey-Jones, F. W. | Loveys, Walter H. | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Finlay, Graeme | Lucas, Sir Jocelyn | Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick) |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Smithers, Peter |
| Forrest, George | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Spearman, Sir Alexander |
| Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(Stafford&Stone) | MacArthur, Ian | Stodart, J. A. |
| Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) | McLaren, Martin | Storey, Sir Samuel |
| Freeth, Denzil | McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia | Studholme, Sir Henry |
| Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. | Maclean,SirFitzroy(Bute&N.Ayrs) | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Gammans, Lady | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.) | Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.) |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | McMaster, Stanley R. | Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side) |
| Glover, sir Douglas | Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax) | Teeling, Sir William |
| Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham) | Maddan, Martin | Temple, John M. |
| Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.) | Maginnis, John E. | Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury) |
| Goodhew, Victor | Maitland, Sir John | Thomas, Peter (Conway) |
| Gresham Cooke, R. | Marshall, Sir Douglas | Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton) |
| Grosvenor, Lord Robert | Mathew, Robert (Honiton) | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) | Matthews, Gordon (Meriden) | Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter |
| Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) | Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin |
| Harris, Reader (Heston) | Mawby, Ray | Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) |
| Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) | Mills, Stratton | Tilney, John (Wavertree) |
| Hastings, Stephen | Montgomery, Fergus | Turner, Colin |
| Hay, John | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Tweedsmuir, Lady |
| Heald, nt. Hon. Sir Lionel | Nicholson, Sir Godfrey | Vane, W. M. F. |
| Hendry, Forbes | Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard | Vickers, Miss Joan |
| Hirst, Geoffrey | Oakshott, Sir Hendrie | Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis |
| Holland, Philip | Orr, Capt, L. P. S. | Wakefield, Sir Wavell |
| Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P. | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) | Walker, Peter |
| Howard, John (Southampton, Test) | Page, John (Harrow, West) | Wall, Patrick |
| Hughes-Young, Michael | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Hulbert, Sir Norman | Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale) | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Hurd, Sir Anthony | Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe) | Whitelaw, William |
| Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Peel, John | Williams, Dudley (Exeter) |
| Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) | Percival, Ian | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) | Peyton, John | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Johnson, Eric (Blackley) | Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth | Yates, William (The Wrekin) |
| Johnson Smith, Geoffrey | Pike, Miss Mervyn | |
| Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith | Pilkington, Sir Richard | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Kerans, Cdr. J. S. | Prior-Palmer, Brig Sir Otho | Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Bromley- |
| Davenport and Sir Gerald Wills. |