HC Deb 24 July 1963 vol 681 cc1472-81

3.56 p.m.

Mr. B. T. Park in (Paddington, North)

I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the compulsory acquisition by local authorities or the Crown of certain premises the ownership of which is disguised or uncertain so that the operations of the law are frustrated. In exercising what is the most cherished remaining privilege of backbenchers, it would be at the least prudent if I were to begin by apologising to the House, and more particularly to you, Mr. Speaker, for recent occasions when I have strained our conventions and your tolerance to provoke further revelations by statements which many have considered to be irrelevant and some to be defamatory.

Now that the sound and fury in this House has died down it is time for the still small voice of Parliamentary and legislative reason to be heard. The House and the public have gone through a chastening experience, as a result of which there is an enhanced sense of everybody's personal responsibility for these matters.

No one wants to hear one more horror story, but, at the same time, these stories have still to be listened to. I hope that I shall elicit an assurance from the Government that they will be listened to and that appropriate action will be taken. But there is a general feeling that things can never be the same again, and there will be an immediate demand to know what we here intend to do about the problem which faces us. If the Bill is to be useful we must first be careful not to let ourselves be refrozen into previous attitudes either on details or on principles.

As for details, the Minister may well remember the discussion we had during the Committee stage of the Housing Act, 1961 when I moved an Amendment to allow the preparation of lists and the registration of dwellings of this kind. I am perfectly certain that there was uncertainty in the Minister's own mind and that there were divisions of opinion on both sides of the Committee and in the back-rooms of the Minister's Department. But we should not think that an attitude taken up then when the decision was taken and the Whips were put on is unalterable. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman has already indicated that it is not.

As for principles, possibly three emerged from recent discussions. They are principles which, I hope, would lie behind any new comprehensive Bill on housing, and if there is to be a small Bill it can be drawn up only in the light of those three principles. I hope that there will be general agreement on what these three principles are.

The first is that private property in houses is not an absolute and eternal thing. Indeed, the principle of private ownership is already hedged about with so many restrictions that it is time to re-emphasise and reconstruct the idea of stewardship and social responsibility in the ownership of houses. The second principle is that there is a social importance in the house itself to the community and to the local authority and that that social responsibility is directly relevant to proposals to amend and improve the powers of local authorities in relation to these houses.

The third principle, which, I think, has emerged, as I sense in the climate of public opinion and in this House, is that security of tenure is vastly more important than the exact amount of rent paid. If my proposed Bill is to be a small step in the direction of what we all hope to achieve, then it must embody these principles.

I need not rehearse the arguments that have been put forward so well this week from the exposition Front Bench, from the Minister himself and from the general public. The only point in my asking for leave to bring in a Bill now is to keep a foot in the door of an opportunity to enact some immediate legislation, however small, as an earnest of the determination of the Government and of the House to remedy the evils which have been exposed.

The question, therefore, is what should be in my proposed Bill, as the public are demanding that we do something. I am proposing, if I am given leave, to name the very last day on which the Government could give an opportunity for the discussion of the Bill, and I will not frame the Bill until I get some indication from the Minister himself as to which points are ready to be brought forward in legislative form.

I would suppose that there are two things that local authorities will agree about and worry about. The first is that they will want some form of registration, and the second is that they will want a device by which they can recover or insure the value of the property which they might take over, without committing themselves to compensating a bad landlord for the neglect of his property.

I would suggest that if either or both of those Clauses, in what could be and must be a longer and well-thought-out Government Bill, could be incorporated in a Bill that can be put through this Session, public opinion would be greatly encouraged, and there would be some hope in the minds of many people, who have been trying during the last few weeks to draw attention to the need to tackle this problem, that this was an indication that the Government and the House have really accepted the present climate of public opinion.

4.3 p.m.

Mr. Graham Page (Crosby)

I do not think that the hon. Member for Paddington, North (Mr. Parkin) has any need to apologise for raising this matter again. But, although every right hon. and hon. Member must be anxious to remedy the wrongs about which the hon. Gentleman has so diligently campaigned, I would ask the House not to give leave at this stage for the introduction of a Bill of the sort which the hon. Gentleman has advocated because I believe that there are already powers vested in the local authorities by Statute to do all that he requires.

I quote The Times of this morning, which said: More houses and not more legislation is the real answer. Under existing legislation, if the hon. Gentleman will study it, every local authority has power to invoke powers of compulsory purchase for housing purposes. The compensation payable should be no deterrent.

The Leader of the Opposition said, on Monday, that compensation should be based on the tax returns. But surely he knows that Section 5 of the Land Compensation Act, 1961, already provides that any increase in value due to the use of premises in a manner which is detrimental to the health of the occupants or to public health or contrary to the law shall not be taken into account.

Furthermore, if it is claimed that this type of house is unfit for human habitation, then under Section 4 of the Housing Act, 1957, the local authority can acquire such house at site value.

The hon. Member for Paddington, North has made much in his previous speeches of the difficulty of serving notices, whether compulsory purchase order notices or under the multiple occupation provisions of the 1961 Act. Surely he must have read Section 169 of the Housing Act, 1957, which says: …any notice, order or other document required or authorised to be served under this Act"— that includes all compulsory purchase documents—may be served by addressing it to the "owner", "lessee" or "occupier", without naming him, and by delivering it to some person on the premises or, if there is no person on the premises to whom it can be delivered, by affixing it, or a copy of it, to some conspicuous part of the premises. This is what the Leader of the Opposition brought forward on Monday as a brilliant new idea. Has he not read Section 169 of the 1957 Act? Immediately the local authority has served the compulsory purchase order and the notice to treat, it can enter on the premises. That is under Section 85 of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845.

If the local authority wishes to proceed under the multiple occupation provisions of the Housing Act, 1961, it can serve these notices by the method I have described—by putting them on a conspicuous part of the premises. That is under Section 28 of the 1961 Act which introduces Section 169 of the 1957 Act into the 1961 Act. If the local authority does the work itself, it can put a receiver of the rents in order to recover the money.

That 1961 Act, which came into force only a year ago, is being widely and effectively used. Paddington has apparently had difficulties in implementing it. The Minister has said that he is getting in touch with the Paddington Borough Council this week to see why it has these difficulties when Kensington, Nottingham, Birmingham and Leicester have been able to get on with the job. I imagine that there are staff difficulties. The hon. Gentleman did not mention that his Bill would take account of that factor. In addition to discussions with the local authorities, my right hon. Friend has appointed a committee of inquiry, under Sir Milner Holland, to define the scale of pressures alleged to be brought to bear on tenants.

The hon. Gentleman must have thought that he could get the Bill through in the remaining seven Parliamentary days of this Session. It is the local authorities who know all about this, who can put forward practical suggestions, who have real experience of these matters. It would be most unfair of this House to rush legislation through without the benefit of the views of local authorities as to what is the right thing to be done.

I come back to The Times: More houses and not more legislation is the real answer. My right hon. Friend has put forward a target of 350,000 houses a year. I my self do not think that that is enough. But why do not the Opposition challenge that figure? The only firm figure to which the Opposition have committed themselves from their Front Bench is to be found in the Official Report of 17th March, 1960, at column 1486, when the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) said that we ought to be building—

Mr. Neil McBride (Swansea, East)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Do I understand that the hon. Gentleman is speaking in opposition to the terms of the Bill or referring to the speech made

by the Leader of the Opposition the other day?

Mr. Speaker

I gather that the hon. Gentleman is advocating reasons for opposing the Motion for leave to introduce the Bill.

Mr. Page

The hon. Member for Fulham said that we ought to be building 40,000 more houses a year than we were then building. If that is worked out, that comes out not as 350,000 but 315,000 a year. I hope that the House will refuse leave to the hon. Gentleman—

Mr. Michael Stewart (Fulham)

The hon. Member has overlooked the fact that I was referring to the English and Welsh figures. The Government figure is the Great Britain figure.

Mr. Page

I challenge the hon. Gentleman to give a firm figure from the Opposition Front Bench.

Mr. Speaker

Order. We do not allow—and I do not want a precedent to be made—interventions in matters under this Standing Order. In view of the divagations of the hon. Gentleman, I thought it only fair to allow that one, but let us not persist in it.

Mr. Page

I ask the House to refuse leave to the hon. Gentleman to bring in his Bill.

Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—

The House divided: Ayes 140, Noes 208.

Division No. 174.] AYES [4.10 p.m.
Abse, Leo Darling, George Hamilton, William (West Fife)
Ainsley, William Davies, Ifor (Gower) Hannan, William
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Harper, Joseph
Awbery, Stan (Bristol, Central) Deer, George Hayman, F. H.
Bacon, Miss Alice Dempsey, James Healey, Denis
Benson, Sir George Dodds, Norman Hill, J. (Midlothlan)
Blackburn, F. Driberg, Tom Hilton, A. V.
Blyton, William Duffy, A. E. P. Holt, Arthur
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Ede, Rt. Hon. C. Houghton, Douglas
Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics,S.W.) Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)
Boyden, James Edwards, Walter (Stepney) Hoy, James H.
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Evans, Albert Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Brockway, A. Fenner Fernyhough, E. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Finch, Harold Hunter, A. E.
Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) Foley, Maurice Hynd, John (Attercliffe)
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Janner, Sir Barnett
Carmichael, Nell George,LadyMeganLloyd(Crmrthn) Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)
Castle, Mrs. Barbara Gourlay, Harry Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Grey, Charles Jones,Rt.Hn. A. Creech(Wakefield)
Crossman, R. H. S. Grimond, Rt. Hon. J. Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Dalyell, Tam Gunter, Ray Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)
Jones, T. W. (Merloneth) Pannell, Charles (Leeds,W.) Stewart, Michael (Futham)
Kelley, Richard Parglter, G. A. Stones, William
Kenyon, Clifford Parkin, B. T. Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)
Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) Swingler, Stephen
King, Dr. Horace Pentland, Norman Symonds, J. B.
Lawson, George Popplewell, Ernest Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Lee, Frederick (Newton) Prentice, R. E. Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Lubbock, Eric Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Thornton, Ernest
McBride, N. Randall, Harry Tomney, Frank
McCann, John Redhead, E. C. Wade, Donald
MacColl, James Rees, Mertyn (Leeds, S.) Wainwright, Edwin
McInnes, James Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) Warbey, William
McKay, John (Wallsend) Robertson, John (Paisley) Watkins, Tudor
MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) Weitzman, David
Mapp, Charles Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton) White, Mrs. Eirene
Marsh, Richard Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.) Whitlock, William
Mason, Roy Ross, William Wilkins, W. A.
Mayhew, Christopher Royle, Charles (Salford, West) Willey, Frederick
Mellish, R. J. Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. Williams, D. J. (Neath)
Mendelson, J. J. Short, Edward Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E)
Millan, Bruce Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.) Winterbottom, R. E.
Mllne, Edward Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield) Woof, Robert
Mitchison, G. R. Small, William Yates, Victor (Ladywood)
Moody, A. S. Sorensen, R. W.
Morris, John Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
O'Malley, B. K. Spriggs, Leslie Mr. Greenwood and Mr. Lipton.
Oram, A. E. Steele, Thomas
NOES
Aitken, Sir William Errington, Sir Eric Lindsay, Sir Martin
Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) Farey-Jones, F. W. Litchfield, Capt. John
Allason, James Farr, John Lloyd,Rt.Hn.Geoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield)
Arbuthnot, John Finlay, Graeme Longbottom, Charles
Ashton, Sir Hubert Fisher, Nigel Loveys, Walter H.
Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham) Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Lucas, Sir Jocelyn
Balniel, Lord Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Barber, Anthony Freeth, Denzil MacArthur, Ian
Barlow, Sir John Gammans, Lady McLaren, Martin
Batsford, Brian Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central) McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia
Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate) Glover, Sir Douglas Maclay, Rt. Hon. John
Bell, Ronald Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham) Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)
Bennett, F. M. (Torquay) Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.) McMaster, Stanley R.
Berkeley, Humphry Green, Alan Macpherson,Rt.Hn.Niall(Dumfries)
Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald Gresham Cooke, R. Maddan, Martin
Bidgood, John C. Grosvenor, Lord Robert Maitland, Sir John
Biffen, John Gurden, Harold Markham, Major Sir Frank
Biggs-Davison, John Hall, John (Wycombe) Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest
Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) Marshall, Sir Douglas
Bishop, F. P. Hare, Rt. Hon. John Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)
Bossom, Hon. Clive Harris, Reader (Heston) Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Bourne-Arton, A. Harrison, Brian (Maldon) Mawby, Ray
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John Harvie Anderson, Miss Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.SirWalter Hastings, Stephen Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.
Brown, Alan (Tottenham) Hay, John Mills, Stratton
Bullard, Denys Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel More, Jasper (Ludlow)
Bullus, Wing Commander Eric Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe) Morgan, William
Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn) Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) Morrison, John
Carr, Compton (Barons Court) Hirst, Geoffrey Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles
Cary, Sir Robert Hobson, Rt. Hon. Sir John Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael
Channnn, H. P. G. Holland, Philip Oakshott, Sir Hendrie
Chichester-Clark, R, Hollingworth, John Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.) Hopkins, Alan Orr-Ewing, Sir Charles
Cooke, Robert Hornby, R. P. Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)
Corfield, F. V. Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P. Page, John (Harrow, West)
Coulson, Michael Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives) Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)
Courtney, Cdr. Anthony Howard, John (Southampton, Test) Pearson, Frank (Ciltheroe)
Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John Peel, John
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver Hughes-Young, Michael Peyton, John
Cunningham, Knox Hulbert, Sir Norman Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth
Curran, Charles Hurd, Sir Anthony Pilkington, Sir Richard
Dalkeith, Earl of Hutchison, Michael Clark Pott, Percivall
Dance, James Jennings, J. G. Price, David (Eastielgh)
d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Prior, J. M. L.
Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F. Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho
Digby, Simon Wingfield Kaberry, Sir Donald Proudfoot, Wilfred
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M. Kerr, Sir Hamilton Pym, Francis
Drayson, G. B. Kimball, Marcus Quennell, Miss J. M.
Duncan, Sir James Lancaster, Col. C. G. Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin
Eden, Sir John Langford Holt, Sir John Rees, Hugh (Swansea, W.)
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Leather, Sir Edwin Renton, Rt. Hon. David
Elliott, R. W. (Newc'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) Leavey, J. A. Ridley, Hon. Nicholas
Emery, Peter Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)
Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Robinson, Rt. Hn. Sir R. (B'pool,S.)
Robson Brown, Sir William Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side) Ward, Dame Irene
Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, N.) Webster, David
Russell, Ronald Thatcher, Mrs, Margaret Wells, John (Maidstone)
Scott-Hopkins, James Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury) Whitelaw, William
Seymour, Leslie Thomas, Peter (Conway) Williams, Dudley (Exeter)
Sharples, Richard Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton) Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)
Shaw, M. Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon,S.) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Smithers, Peter Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin Wise, A. R.
Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Spearman, Sir Alexander Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H. Woodhouse, C. M.
Speir, Rupert Tweedsmuir, Lady Woodnutt, Mark
Stodart, J. A. Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John Worsley, Marcus
Storey, Sir Samuel Vickers, Miss Joan
Studholme, Sir Henry Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Summers, Sir Spencer Walker, Peter Mr. Percival and
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek Mr. Graham Page.
Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.) Wall, Patrick