Commons Sitting of 20 February 1963

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  SCOTTISH PULP MILL (WATER SUPPLY) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Considered; to be read the Third time Tomorrow.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    Whifflet Viaduct Road Bridge
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he proposes to approve the resumption of work on the partly completed Whifflet Viaduct Road Bridge, which has been standing partly completed since about 1939.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Gilmour Leburn): The viaduct was partly rebuilt before the war and provides a two-lane carriageway. Completion of the work to provide a dual carriageway to modern standards might cost about £250,000, and in view of the many urgent claims on classified road funds my right hon. Friend cannot say when he might be able to authorise the necessary highway grant.
    Mr. Dempsey: Does the Under-Secretary realise that one side of the viaduct is shored up with timber shoring, and is rather an eye-sore? In view of the major development in the Whifflet area of Coatbridge which will be undertaken very soon, would not this be an ideal opportunity to proceed with this work, which in any case was commenced before the war?
    Mr. Leburn: Ideally, what the hon. Member says is true. It is merely a question of priorities. I understand that
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    the work that was done on the viaduct before the war had to be done because that part of it was unsafe.

    New Hospital, Coatbridge and Airdrie
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the high unemployment rate in the area, he will bring forward the starting date of the new general hospital to be built in Coat-bridge and Airdrie.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. R. Brooman-White): Planning of this hospital is only at the preliminary stage and would require at least three years to complete. There is, therefore, no question of an early start.
    Mr. Dempsey: Is the Minister aware that now that he has a site in mind it should be possible to telescope the planning and considerably reduce the waiting period? Does not he realise that in this area nearly 10 per cent. of the insurable population is unemployed? Is he aware that competent medical consultants have stated that the hospital facilities in Lanarkshire, excluding the maternity services, are 50 years out of date? Are not these excellent reasons for getting on with this project?
    Mr. Brooman-White: I am advised that we have not even got the working drawings yet It should take about that time to get going The question of the priority of hospitals in the general building programme of the area is a matter for the regional hospital board, as the hon. Member appreciates.

    King Street Development, Huntly
    Mr. Hendryasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what rate of subsidy he proposes to pay in respect of 12 houses in the King Street Development in the Burgh of Huntly for which the town council submitted proposals to him on 12th April, 1961.
    Mr. Leburn: The rate of subsidy paid will be the amount determined in accordance with Section 3 of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1962.
    Mr. Hendry: Is not this a most extraordinary state of affairs, considering that the relevant date for the new rate of subsidy was 1st November, 1961; that the

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    proposals were made by the local authority on 12th April, 1961, and resubmitted at the request of my right hon. Friend on 1st October, 1961? In those circumstances, according to last year's Act, should not the rate of subsidy be the old rate payable under the previous Act?
    Mr. Leburn: No. The difference between my hon. Friend and myself lies in the interpretation of the word "proposals". The tenders were not submitted until 3rd May, 1962, and the subsidy will therefore qualify under the 1962 Act.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Clark Hutchison.
    Mr. Hendry: On a point of order. In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I called Mr. Clark Hutchison.
    Mr. Clark Hutchison: As these houses are needed, would it not be wise to go ahead with them, and not quibble about the circumstances?
    Mr. Leburn: I do not think that there is any dispute about that.
    Mr. Ross: Is it not the case that the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) voted for this? Is not he aware that if he had supported one of the Opposition Amendments his point would have been covered?
    Mr. Leburn: The only difference here between my hon. Friend and myself lies in the interpretation of the word "proposals".

    Trunk Roads
    Mr. Stodartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many miles of trunk roads in Scotland carry three lanes of traffic; and over what distance on these three-lane roads there are double white lines.
    Mr. Leburn: There are 65 miles of trunk road in Scotland with full three-lane carriageways. On about a quarter of a mile of this total, where conditions of visibility are such that overtaking should he prohibited in one or both directions, double white lines have been laid. The remainder is lined either for
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    three lanes of traffic or with the centre hazard line necessary at junctions and at places where care should be taken.
    Mr. Stodart: With particular reference to the road from Edinburgh to Glasgow, which is regarded as a menace by most motorists and which has three-lane traffic nearly all the way, can my right hon. Friend say whether there are double white lines on that road and if not, will he encourage the painting of them in order to prevent overtaking from either direction on the crown of the road?
    Mr. Leburn: I have a good deal of sympathy with the point of view of my hon. Friend. I think that the double white line is a useful expedient especially on hills when there is slow-moving commercial vehicles. This does not apply to the Edinburgh-Glasgow road.
    Mr. Manuel: Is not the Under-Secretary aware that there is a large body of opinion in the country which is against three-lane carriageways and considers that many accidents are caused because of the manner in which vehicles overtake each other when travelling on them? Is he aware that motorists do not overtake where they should, no matter how the road is marked, and will he consider expert evidence with a view to reverting to a two-line carriageway?
    Mr. Leburn: I should be happy to consider that.

    Hospitals (Maternity Beds)
    Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many fully-staffed maternity beds he estimates will be available in the National Health Service hospitals in Scotland by 30th September, 1963.
    Mr. Brooman-White: About 3,240.
    Dr. Mabon: Does not this represent a tortoise rate of advance? Does not the Minister realise that the Montgomery Report, in 1959, anticipated the provision of maternity beds in a far shorter time? Cannot the Government speed up this matter as the lack of maternity beds can cause a great deal of human misery and in some cases tragedy?
    Mr. Brooman-White: The accommodation which will be provided at the new maternity hospital at York Hill in Glasgow towards the end of the year represents a step towards the solution of this problem. The hon. Member will be aware that the standard of accommodation for births in hospitals in Scotland compares favourably with that in other parts of the country.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: If this is a matter of shortage of money, will the Minister approach the Prime Minister and explain to the right hon. Gentleman that maternity beds would prove a better long-term investment than Polaris submarines?

    Committees (Publication of Evidence)
    Mr. John MacLeodasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if when appointing committees in future he will instruct them that no such undertaking should be given to witnesses that their evidence will not be published as was done in the case of the Mackenzie Committee.
    Mr. Leburn: No, Sir. It is well-established practice that Committees should decide their own procedure.
    Mr. MacLeod: Why is there necessity for secrecy? Surely there is no question of the security of the State being involved in the report of a public inquiry of this kind? Is he aware that the Report of the Mackenzie Committee is very important to Scotland and particularly to the Highlands, and surely the people of the Highlands should be able to know on what evidence the findings of the Committee were based?
    Mr. Leburn: I think it was for the Committee to decide whether the evidence should be taken in secret or otherwise. I can imagine that some witnesses would be very ready to give certain views in private which they might not be ready to give if the evidence were taken in public.
    Mr. Hoy: Will the hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that he will publish the names of those witnesses, whether personal or representing organisations, who gave evidence which has been suppressed? Does he realise that it follows from what he has said that if evidence is suppressed from the public in this
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    fashion, it will also be suppressed from this House? What right has the hon. Gentleman, or any Minister, to give an assurance to witnesses tendering evidence to a public inquiry that that evidence will be denied to the House of Commons?
    Mr. Leburn: It is not a question of suppressing evidence at all. It is merely that the witnesses were told that the evidence would not be published, and in those circumstances I do not think that we should ask for it to be published.
    Mr. Hoy: May I have an answer to the first part of my supplementary question? If the hon. Gentleman will not publish the evidence, will he publish the names of those who gave evidence and whose evidence has been suppressed?
    Mr. Leburn: I should like to consider that. I think that probably the Committee's Report gives that information.

    Electricity (Mackenzie Report)
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now make a statement on the Mackenzie Report, with particular reference to the Glen Nevis scheme and the supply of electricity to the unserved islands.
    Mr. Millanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will announce Her Majesty's Government's decisions on the recommendations of the Mackenzie Committee on electricity generation in Scotland.
    Mr. John MacLeodasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action the Government intend to take on the recommendations of the Mackenzie Report on electricity generation in Scotland.
    Mr. Leburn: The very important issues raised by this Report are still under consideration.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is the Minister aware that the Glen Nevis scheme is regarded as vital to the whole future development of hydro-electricity in Scotland and that the Government have been art unconscionable time in coming to any sort of decision about its future? Can the hon. Gentleman give any indication about how soon he will give a statement to the House? Since he did not answer the second part of my Question, may I ask

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    him to appreciate that while my constituents do not wish in any way to reduce the influence or autonomy of the Hydro-Electric Board, their first concern must be for the provision of electricity which is necessary in areas in the islands where no possible development can take place until there is a supply of electricity?
    Mr. Leburn: The Board is reviewing its future programme. Consultations are taking place, including consideration of the Glen Nevis scheme. Regarding the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, the Committee emphasised that its recommendations should be considered as a whole and that is what is being done.
    Mr. Millan: Is the Minister aware that many of the recommendations are extremely important and that there is a degree of urgency about many, such as those mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for The Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan)? Regarding the proposed merger, is he aware that from the Report it is very difficult to find any evidence that this merger should take place? Am I right in thinking, for example—it seems now to be widely believed—that not only the North of Scotland Board but also the South of Scotland Board gave evidence to the Committee against this merger?
    Mr. Leburn: I am fully aware of the need for an urgent decision on this matter. But I think the hon. Gentleman knows that here we are dealing with a very complicated and difficult problem. I am also aware of the strong feeling in various quarters about this, and my right hon. Friend will certainly take that into consideration.
    Mr. John MacLeod: Is my hon. Friend aware that the authorities in the north of Scotland have opposed any merger by the two Boards and that I hope that he has also come to that opinion?
    Mr. Leburn: As I have said, I am well aware of the strong feelings which exist, and I have given an undertaking that my right hon. Friend will take them fully into account.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is the Minister aware that there is nothing whatever in the Report regarding the Glen Nevis scheme or
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    the question of a merger which prevents him in any way from sanctioning and assisting with finance the island schemes recommended by the Committee? Why not give a decision on that?
    Mr. Leburn: I think that the hon. Gentleman has got it wrong. There is no doubt that the Committee emphasised that its recommendations should be considered as a whole.

    Ross and Cromarty and Inverness-shire
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the fact that unemployment in the Lewis and Harris area is now over 30 per cent. he will offer to assist financially the county councils of Ross and Cromarty and Inverness in speeding up their programme of roads, water supply and other basic services.
    Mr. Leburn: My right hon. Friend is, of course anxious that these authorities should expedite their programmes. Grants will be payable under the normal structure, which includes certain special arrangements for the Highland counties.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is the Under-Secretary aware that we are anxious because we think that the grant will be paid only at the usual speed? Is he aware, as I have emphasised, that year after year the figure for unemployment in this area reaches the 30 per cent. mark, which represents a tragedy for the people in the area, and that the Government are not making any real effort to solve the problem? Is he aware that there is available a five-year programme of public works which could wipe out unemployment for several years to come if the Government had the will to put it into operation?
    Mr. Leburn: Of course we are concerned about unemployment. I can only tell the hon. Gentleman that, following the discussions we had the other day, I have been in touch with the county surveyors in both the counties.
    Mr. MacMillan: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr John MacLeod: Can the Under-Secretary say what is the level of all grants paid in the Highland counties at the present time?
    Mr. Leburn: Taking specific grants, the equalisation grant and the general grant, the relevant local expenditure in 1962–63 was at the rate of 80 per cent. in Ross and Cromarty and 71 per cent. for Inverness-shire.

    Paisley Road, West, Glasgow (Traffic Signals)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the increasing weight of traffic, with its acompanying dangers, on Paisley Road, West, at the point where it separates Crookston Road from Sandwood Road; and if he will consult the appropriate authority with a view to erecting a system of traffic signals at this particular crossing.
    Mr. Leburn: This is a matter for consideration in the first place by Glasgow Corporation as highway authority.
    Mr. Rankin: I suggested in the Question that the hon. Gentleman might consult the appropriate authority before answering it. Did he do that, and, if he has not done so, will he do so because this is a matter of importance? It would be very easily remedied because the control lights of Hillington Road, which is not a crossing point, could be transferred and perform the same functions 100 yards further to the west.
    Mr. Leburn: I realise that, but I have every confidence in the corporation that it will take the necessary initiative and I am sure that it will not hesitate to come to me if it wishes to do so.

    Maternity Beds, Glasgow
    Mrs. Cullenasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the present availability of maternity beds in Glasgow.
    Mr. Brooman-White: At the end of September last there were 739 staffed maternity beds for Glasgow. My right hon. Friend expects that there will be about 900 beds by the end of this year.
    Mrs. Cullen: Will the Minister bear in mind that this is a long-standing request? Will he assure us that he will speed up the necessary provision of these beds?
    Mr. Brooman-White: Measured by the standards of the Montgomery Committee
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    as to what is desirable for the percentage of births in hospital, the Glasgow standard should be about 880 beds and by the end of the year it will be 900.

    Reid Committee (Report)
    Mr. McInnesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the Reid Committee, appointed in 1959 to consider conveyancing and registration of title to land, will submit its report.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lady Tweedsmuir): I understand that the Report has only to be signed. My right hon. Friend expects to receive it very shortly.
    Mr. McInnes: Will the noble Lady indicate if the Report has yet been received by the Department? On the last occasion I asked a Question about it I was told that it would be ready towards the end of last year.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: The reason for the further delay was that the Committee had to make some final adjustments to the Report. The Report, as I said, will be received very shortly.

    Infant Mortality, Glasgow
    Mr. J. Bennettasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has for dealing with the problem of infant mortality in Glasgow.
    Mr. Brooman-White: Action has already been taken to bring the hospital maternity bed provision up to the recommended standard this year, to establish a system of priorities for hospital admission and to improve co-ordination between the Health Service authorities and the family doctors. Social and environmental factors are very important and my right hon. Friend is co-operating with the corporation in an analysis of the causes of death under one year which may help to show where further action can be taken most effectively.
    Mr. Bennett: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been an increase in the infant mortality figures in Glasgow in 1962 as against 1961 and this is a matter of very real concern? May we have an assurance that he will do all possible to speed up co-operation

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    between himself and Glasgow Corporation to remedy this very serious problem?
    Mr. Brooman-White: As I say, I do not think it is a question of availability of beds, but possibly of the best use of beds. I shall certainly look into the problem.

    Licensing (Guest Committee)
    Mr. McInnesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the Guest Committee on Licensing will submit its second report dealing with the sale of excisable liquor in areas of housing development and redevelopment.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: I understand that the Committee hopes to submit its second report, covering the remaining items of its remit, by Easter or soon afterwards.
    Mr. McInnes: Is the noble Lady aware that this Committee was appointed in 1959? It has had a long enough time to consider a simple proposition of this kind. I know that it issued part of its Report in 1962, but I hope that the final Report will not be delayed any longer.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: As the hon. Member has said, the Committee had four subjects in its remit and therefore did not start on the last two of the four until October, 1960. It had to consider not only the sale of excisable liquor in areas of housing development and redevelopment, but also the whole question of the constitution of licensing courts arid courts of appeal.

    Small Debt Actions, Glasgow
    Mr. J. Bennettasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many cases were summoned to appear before the small debt courts in Glasgow in the years 1960 and 1961 and up to the latest convenient date in 1962.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: The number of small debt actions initiated in the Glasgow sheriff court was 46,304 in 1960; 47,557 in 1961, and 49,266 in 1962.
    Mr. Bennett: Is the noble Lady aware that those figures are a cynical commentary on what is happening in the so-called affluent society? Will she take
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    the necessary steps to create employment in this area so that people can regain their self-respect and live in comfort?
    Lady Tweedsmuir: The statistics do not show what is the main cause of these small debt actions. As I think the whole House knows, a great deal is being done to try to create employment in this area.
    Mr. Lawson: Could the noble Lady tell us how many of these cases arise out of action taken by the firm of Napiers? Is there a disproportion of these cases arising from such firms? Does she think that enough action has been taken to deal with the type of practices which these firms follow?
    Lady Tweedsmuir: As I said in answer to a previous supplementary question, the statistics are not broken dawn in detail. Therefore, I cannot answer the last part of that supplementary question.
    Mr. Hendry: Will my noble Friend agree that a great many of these cases were contested and that they do not indicate any substantial amount of debt but show that in Scotland there is a very quick, convenient and cheap method of getting justice?
    Lady Tweedsmuir: That is so.

    Forth Road Bridge
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland to what extent the completion of the Forth Road Bridge has been delayed by adverse weather conditions.
    Dr. A. Thompsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether progress on the construction of the Forth Road Bridge is proceeding according to plan; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Leburn: Bad weather both last winter and this has interfered considerably with work on the bridge but technical discussions are now taking place with a view to recovering the time lost so that, if at all possible, the bridge can be opened to traffic by the end of 1963.
    Mr. Willis: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that people in Scotland will be disappointed that the opening has been delayed, but that that disappointment could be considerably offset if his right hon. Friend would once again look at the

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    very many representations made by bodies of all kinds in Scotland not to proceed with the levying of tolls?
    Mr. Leburn: That is quite a different question.
    Dr. Thompson: Could the hon. Gentleman at least give an assurance that he will not proceed with the installation of expensive electronic toll-collecting equipment on the bridge until further discussions on the question of tolls have taken place?
    Mr. Leburn: No, Sir. I am afraid that in answer to this Question I could not do that, but, if the hon. Member puts down that specific question I shall certainly give an answer.
    Sir J. Gilmour: Will my hon. Friend agree that the highest praise is due to all engaged on work on the bridge because of the difficult conditions in which they have had to work? Will he offer them our congratulations?
    Mr. Leburn: Yes, Sir. I am sure that we should all like to pay our tribute to the work which has been done in very difficult conditions. I have never exposed myself to the hazards of the tower as one Scottish Minister has done, but I have a very vivid imagination.

    Migration
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what loss of population occurred in Scotland in 1962 as the result of migration to other parts of the United Kingdom and abroad.
    Mr. Leburn: The net loss of population by migration from Scotland in the year to June, 1962, is estimated at 29,500. Of this 20,500 was to other parts of the United Kingdom and 9,000 abroad.
    Mr. Willis: Is not that a really shocking figure? Should not the Government be ashamed of themselves? When will the Secretary of State come to the House with a statement as to what he intends to do to try to stop this? We get statements from everyone but the Secretary of State for Scotland.
    Mr. Leburn: I am the first to agree that this figure is uncomfortably high and, of course, we aim to put that right.
    Mr. F. Harris: I apologise for intruding, but, as an off-set to this figure, does anyone apart from the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) emigrate to Scotland?
    Mr. Leburn: These are net figures.
    Mr. Ross: What attempt have the Government made to find the reasons for this loss of population? Is it not amazing that the Secretary of State and a noble Lord in another place described Scotland as "the land of opportunity", yet 29,000 have to leave it to find an opportunity elsewhere?
    Mr. Leburn: We all know that the basic problem in Scotland is that new jobs and new industries have not kept pace with the loss in declining industries, and we must get more diversification. That is what we are aiming to do through the Local Employment Act and by other means.

    Maternity Beds, Greenock
    Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the recent withdrawal of maternity beds at Larkfield Hospital, Greenock, because of the shortage of staff; and what steps he is taking to speed up the provision of an adequate number of fully staffed maternity beds to serve Greenock and district.
    Mr. Brooman-White: My right hon. Friend understands that the board of management has decided to close five maternity beds for private patients, which it had found exceptionally difficult to staff. The hospital building programme includes provision for 35 additional maternity beds for the area.
    Dr. Mabon: While these figures may seem small, they represent a great number of people spread over many months, since the beds are used only for short periods and this area serves not only Renfrewshire but also Bute and part of Argyll. Is it not all the more important that the Hospital Plan should not be used as an obstacle to prevent the provision of mare maternity beds in the next year or two? Will the Minister tell me when he intends to sanction the building of the new wing in the Rankin Hospital for more maternity beds? Is it this year or next?
    Mr. Brooman-White: I do not think that I can add, on the Rankin Hospital, to what was said in the Hospital Plan, in which it was said that it was hoped to make a start in the period before 1965. The hon. Member appreciates that the closing of this small unit was due to particular staffing difficulties in that small unit.
    Mr. Manuel: I understood the Minister to say that these were private beds. Would he not take away this designation, when possibly he would find that they would be more fully used by ordinary people in this area?
    Mr. Brooman-White: That is a wider question. The problem here was a staffing problem in exceptional circumstances.

    Road Research (Expenditure)
    Mr. Smallasked the Secretary of State for Scotland why the estimated expenditure of £4,100 on road research in 1961–62 was underspent by £1,655.
    Mr. Leburn: A sum of £2,500 was provided in the estimate for a test near Beauly of local moraine materials in bituminous surfacings, carried out by Inverness County Council on behalf of the Road Research Laboratory and my right hon. Friend's Department. This work was not completed in time for the cost to be paid in 1961–62; and it was met this year.
    Mr. Small: Will the Minister give some information about the delay and the amount of money spent, which seems to be much below the estimate for research of this kind?
    Mr. Leburn: It is only a question of money having been carried forward from one year to the next.

    Universities (Annual Reports)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that for 40 years, he and his predecessors have not performed their statutory duty of laying before Parliament the annual reports which are made to him by the universities in accordance with Section 30 of the Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889; why he has not done so; and whether he will do so in future.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: The statutory duty of the Secretary of State is to lay before Parliament the reports made to him by the universities, and this duty my right hon. Friend and his predecessors have performed. It now appears that the reports have included statistics of attendance by reference to faculties rather than to classes, as mentioned in the Act. My right hon. Friend proposes to draw the universities' attention to this.
    Mr. Hannan: Is the hon. Lady aware that in a recent letter to me the Lord President of the Council, among other things, in a characteristic understatement, in fact admitted that this is an odd situation, that the consultation with the Scottish Universities Committee in 1920 and 1921 was ultra vires, confessed to a blunder of his predecessor and apologised for it? As he says that he has no jurisdiction to enforce the Act, are we to take it from the hon. Lady's reply that the present Secretary of State also admits the error and that Section 30 of this Act will now be complied with?
    Lady Tweedsmuir: I said in my original reply that the Secretary of State is not in default, because his responsibility is to lay this before Parliament. As for the universities, I understand that they will be able to provide these figures for the academic year 1961–62 in the next Report, which will be laid before Parliament under Section 30 of the 1889 Act in November.
    Dr. A. Thompson: Is not the Minister aware that on 12th July, 1960, when I raised the matter the Secretary of State said that there was no reason to examine the working of Section 30? In view of what the Lord President of the Council said in his letter and the hon. Lady's reply, will she not concede that the answer was both misleading and inaccurate, and will she undertake to consult the Vice-Chancellors, the General Councils and the Scottish Association of University Teachers to examine the whole operation of this Act of Parliament?
    Lady Tweedsmuir: I cannot accept the remarks made about my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. The 1889 Act is rather cumbrous and, as I understand it, the Robbins Committee is considering, among other things, the relations between

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    the universities and Parliament. I think that we should await that Report to see whether anything further can be done.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Is the Robbins Committee considering this situation fully, and when is its report to be expected?
    Lady Tweedsmuir: It is one of the subjects which is being considered by the Robbins Committee and it is expected that the Committee's Report will be received in the summer.
    Mr. Ross: Whose obligation is it to see that a statutory duty, which has been laid down, is carried out? Whose responsibility is it, if it is not that of the Secretary of State for Scotland?
    Lady Tweedsmuir: In this case the Lord President of the Council came into it, and it was his responsibility, which is why he replied to the letter. The Secretary of State has carried out his responsibility fully to lay a Report before Parliament.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: We must move on. Mr. Small.
    Mr. Hannan: On a point of order. In view of what I think is an unsatisfactory answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Road Safety Propaganda
    Mr. Smallasked the Secretary of State for Scotland why no action was taken by his Department to undertake road safety propaganda in 1961–62.
    Mr. Leburn: The Government's principal agent in road safety propaganda is the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents; there is full co-operation between my right hon. Friend's Department, the Society and the Scottish Accident Prevention Council in the work carried out in Scotland.
    Mr. Small: Does the Minister recognise that that is a very poor excuse? In view of the rising figures of road casualties, his Department could very well spend money on safety measures in this period.
    Mr. Leburn: We are all concerned about road accidents and the question of safety, but it is heartening to note
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    that the total number of accidents in Scotland in 1962 was 657 fewer than in 1961, which is the first time since 1957 that there has been a fall.
    Mr. Stodart: If I understand my hon. Friend to say that the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents is one of his agents in this matter, does it mean that the society receives an annual grant from him?
    Mr. Leburn: The society received a grant for 1962–63 of £106,000, but this was paid on behalf of my right hon. Friend and of the Minister of Transport by the Minister of Transport.
    Mr. Steele: Why is there no full-time road safety officer in the Minister's Department? There are a number of full-time road safety officers attached to the Ministry of Transport. This suggestion was made to the Scottish Office a number of years ago and consideration was to be given to it. What has happened? Why do we not have a full-time officer in the Scottish Office?
    Mr. Leburn: We feel that using the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents as my right hon. Friend's agents is the most appropriate way.

    Housing
    Mr. Millanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the total number of houses built in England and Wales has risen from 241,525 in 1958 to 278,667 in 1962, that over the same years the numbers built in Scotland have dropped from 32,170 to 26,761, and that if the Scottish figures had risen proportionately to those of England and Wales the 1962 total for Scotland would have been 37,117, or 10,356 more than the actual figures; and what he proposes to do to remedy the situation.
    Mr. Leburn: Last year 27,255 houses were approved for construction by public authorities alone, or 46 per cent. more than in the previous yeas. My right hon. Friend hopes that his proposals for joint action by the authorities to exploit new building techniques will enable a corresponding increase in completions to be secured before long, and that private enterprise completions will continue to rise from last year's total of 7,784.
    Mr. Millan: Is not that a thoroughly inadequate Answer in view of the very serious figures which are brought out in the Question, the accuracy of which presumably is accepted by the Government? Is it not time that we had a thorough reappraisal of Scottish housing policy, taking in slum clearance, new towns and every other aspect of housing policy? Will the Minister ask the Secretary of State to make a statement about this, because the situation is deteriorating year after year despite the fact that the Scottish housing position is very much worse than that in England and Wales.
    Mr. Leburn: I am very anxious to improve the position of housing in Scotland. It is fair to point out, however, that the English figures which the hon. Member quoted, and with which I do not quarrel, are supported very heavily by a large amount of private building, which we do not have in Scotland.
    Mr. Hoy: That may be so—it has always been so because most people in Scotland have had to have their housing needs satisfied through the municipalities. In view of this, would not the hon. Gentleman agree to ask his right hon. Friend to make a comprehensive study of this? We agree that the Government may have to adopt other methods, but at least let us have a comprehensive study and a report from the Government on what programme they intend to bring forward to meet the appalling housing need in Scotland.
    Mr. Leburn: I repeat that I am as anxious as anyone in the House to get mare houses built in Scotland. If it is thought that having a comprehensive study will help, I will certainly look into the matter.
    Mr. McInnes: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the real answer lies in the fact that the continual interference by the Government with housing subsidies and other measures does not permit of a high building rate in Scotland? Do the Government now propose to stop this interference year after year, with a different subsidy Bill and a different Bill relating to grants, etc.? This is what is discouraging local authorities from building houses.
    Mr. Leburn: I am sure that the 1962 Act will encourage local authorities.
    Mr. Millan: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    New Building Techniques
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on his recent proposals to local authorities regarding the use of new building techniques.
    Mr. Leburn: My right hon. Friend has sought the co-operation of local and other authorities in joint action to make full use of the new building techniques and ideas on standardisation that are being developed. My right hon. Friend's proposals are more fully described in the relevant circular, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
    Mr. Hannan: I thank the Under-Secretary for the latter part of the Answer. Does he appreciate that, according to information given in a previous Answer, slum clearance in Scotland has fallen from about 11,000 houses in 1958 to 9,000 in 1961? Thousands of building workers are at this moment wholly unemployed in National Productivity Year. What practical proposals have the Government got for employing these new methods and getting these men in the factories producing housing components?
    Mr. Leburn: I think that the hon. Gentleman would be well advised to wait and read this Circular.

    Inshore Fishermen (Salmon Fishing)
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, until the Hunter Committee has reported, he will allow inshore fishermen to pursue salmon in the sea with other gear than drift nets.
    Mr. Brooman-White: Apart from general restrictions on trawling and seine net fishing in certain areas, fishing with drift nets as defined in the Order is the only method of fishing for salmon in the sea which is at present prohibited. My right hon. Friend cannot give any assurances about other methods of fishing should they prove likely to be damaging to salmon stocks.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Is my hon. Friend aware of the feeling which exists among the inshore fishermen about this prohibition of their fishing in seas which they have been accustomed to regard as free? May I take it that my hon. Friend is at least as concerned for the livelihood of the many as he is for the sport of the few?
    Mr. Brooman-White: We are most concerned about the position of the inshore fishermen, but they would most certainly be damaged by any serious diminution in salmon stock.
    Mr. Hoy: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Government prohibited these waters to our own fishermen only, still leaving it possible for foreign fishermen to come in and fish there? This is the result of the Government's action. It is against this action that the inshore fishermen of our own country are protesting. What does he intend to do about it?
    Mr. Brooman-White: All the difficulties on that side were very fully discussed when the Order was debated. I do not think that I can add to what was said then.
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillan: Is the Under-Secretary aware that this last season there was a tremendous harvest of salmon available right up the west coast and the islands of Scotland? There was no reason on earth for preventing fishermen or anybody else exercising their elementary and natural right of catching a salmon for the pot. Why do the Government keep interfering and setting up committees when it is as simple as that?

    Derelict Sites (Clearance)
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how much has already been spent by local authorities on the clearance of derelict sites within the terms laid down by the Local Employment Act; and what evidence there is of increasing use of these terms.
    Mr. Leburn: I regret I cannot state precisely the amounts spent until local authorities submit their claims for grant, but the total estimated cost of the 15 approved schemes is £250,000, of which I estimate about £70,000 has been spent to date. As the hon. Member is aware, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of
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    the Exchequer is considering whether the rate of grant should be raised in order to facilitate projects of this kind.
    Mr. Hamilton: We were aware of that, but we are rather sick and tired of waiting for decisions on these matters. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are hundreds of acres, particularly in the industrial belt of Scotland, which are derelict and which could be tackled immediately if we got some urgent decisions by the Government instead of their dilly-dallying in the way they have continually done over the last several months?
    Mr. Leburn: I am well aware that there is room for improvement here, but I regret that I cannot make any further statement today.

    Militia Act, 1882 (Section 29)
    Mr. Steeleasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will introduce legislation to amend Section 29 of the Militia Act, 1882, in such a way as to ensure that the convener of a county council would act as lord lieutenant during his period of office.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: No, Sir. This question was considered carefully following correspondence between the hon. Member and one of my right hon. Friend's predecessors. The conclusion reached, with which my right hon. Friend agrees, was that there was insufficient advantage in this proposal to warrant this substantial change in the longstanding practice under which the personal representatives of the Sovereign in the counties at large are selected on the recommendation of the Prime Minister.
    Mr. Steele: Would the noble Lady say why the lord provosts of the four cities of Aberdeen, Glasgow, Dundee and Edinburgh are automatically the lords lieutenant of the county? Having accepted that principle, why should not the convener of a county council who is the democratically elected representative and spokesman of the people be in this position? If her right hon. Friend has any sympathy with this idea, surely in new appointments this principle could be accepted by giving advice in the right quarters?
    Lady Tweedsmuir: The reasons why the four cities are different are historical

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    reasons which date from George III and also Queen Victoria and which apparently were also accepted by right hon. and hon. Members opposite. Because it has worked well—I certainly agree that it has—it does not necessarily follow that in all other cases Her Majesty's choice of lord lieutenant should be restricted in this way.
    Mr. Steele: Are we to assume that because the Conservative Party believes that something was right in the time of George III it should not be altered?
    Lady Tweedsmuir: I do not notice or recall that there was any particular objection from the party opposite when they were in power.

    Bridge, Moodiesburn
    Miss Herbisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when work will begin on the construction of an overhead bridge for pedestrians at Moodiesburn, Chryston.
    Mr. Leburn: The hon. Lady wrote to my right hon. Friend about this proposal at the end of January, and it is being examined urgently. He hopes to be able to reply to her letter in a few weeks time.
    Miss Herbison: Is not the Under-Secretary aware that the Lanarkshire County Council took this matter up with the Secretary of State some time before I did? What is hindering the Secretary of State from making a decision on such a simple matter? Is it, as he told the Lanarkshire County Council, that he wanted to know how effective the bridge was in Salsburgh? If that is the case, is he not aware that that bridge has been a very great help? Does he intend to wait until more and more pedestrians are killed on this busy Glasgow—Stirling road before this bridge is erected?
    Mr. Leburn: No. My right hon. Friend is certainly not waiting to see the effect of the bridge at Salsburgh. The usefulness of that bridge is admitted. There is a great difference between the one at Salsburgh and the one under discussion here and our engineers are going into that matter. I assure the hon. Lady that they are doing so urgently. We
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    really must look at the question of this pedestrian crossing and the use that would be made of it before we go ahead.

    Paraplegic Miners (Invalid Tricycles)
    Mr. J. Hillasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many invalid tricycles are now on issue to paraplegic miners in Scotland; and how many are in the Midlothian area.
    Mr. Brooman-White: This information is not available.
    Mr. Hill: That is not a very satisfactory Answer. Does not the hon. Gentleman consider that the time has now arrived when these men who were broken in body in industry should have four-wheeled vehicles with two seats? Many of them are married men and require assistance, which is not possible in three-wheeled vehicles with only one seat. Many hon. Members on this side of the House think that the time is now appropriate to supply these men with four-wheeled instead of three-wheeled vehicles.
    Mr. Brooman-White: That is a wider question than the one on the Order Paper.

    Water Supplies (Loch Lomond)
    Mr. Steeleasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is now in a position to make a statement on the proposal to supply mid-Scotland with water from Loch Lomond.
    Mr. Leburn: My right hon. Friend expects to be able to do so very shortly.
    Mr. Steele: Can the Under-Secretary say whether a decision is to be taken that a scheme to take water from Loch Lomond should be carried out? Is he aware that a large number of interests in my constituency are involved, and that adequate time will have to be provided so that what these interests have to say can be heard before a final decision is taken?
    Mr. Leburn: There is no question of a decision having been made. My right hon. Friend will have to consider the report of the working party, and I can certainly give the hon. Gentleman the

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    assurance that those who have interests in this matter will be given every opportunity to make representations.

    Scottish Development Department
    Mr. J. Hillasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what additional staff and cost are involved in the creation of the new Development Department at the Scottish Office.
    Mr. Leburn: The Scottish Development Department was set up in June, 1962, to discharge certain functions previously assigned to the Scottish Home Department and to the Department of Health for Scotland. No additional cost and no additional staff were involved.
    Mr. Hill: Am I to take it from that Answer that the people employed in St. Andrew's House were under-employed before the new Development Department was set up? If so, why?
    Mr. Leburn: Certainly not.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Does "development" in this connotation include industry, employment and unemployment? Will any of the new officials deal with the terribly acute problem of increasing unemployment in north-east Scotland?
    Mr. Leburn: Primarily these are matters for my right hon. Friends the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Labour.
    Mr. Ross: What is new about this Department? Are not the people concerned merely playing musical desks in St. Andrew's House?
    Mr. Leburn: No one has ever claimed that this Department did more than allow the Secretary of State to discharge with the maximum efficiency those of his functions that bear most directly on the development of the Scottish economy in matters such as housing, electricity, water, roads, and so on.
    Mr. Ross: I am sorry. I did not get the whole reply. Who was it whom the Secretary of State was to discharge?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that we must move on to the next Question.
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what attention is being paid by the Development Department of the Scottish Office to those areas, not
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    included within scheduled districts under the Local Employment Act, where traditional industries are declining.
    Mr. Leburn: In considering proposals for the development of services for which my right hon. Friend is directly or indirectly responsible, his Departments have regard to the employment and population problems of all areas in Scotland.
    Mr. Ross: Surely the hon. Gentleman is aware of the growing frustration in these areas in which traditional industries are declining, factories are lying empty and people are idle? They get no help from the Board of Trade and little but the sort of vague statement we have just had in respect of assistance from the new Development Department. When is something going to be done in respect of assistance through the Local Employment Act to deal with this real problem?
    Mr. Leburn: The hon. Member must distinguish between services for which my right hon. Friend is responsible—which are, as he knows, in the matters of developments covering roads, electricity, housing, water and the like. In regard to industry, he must address his questions to the President of the Board of Trade.
    Dr. Dickson Mabon: Is it not the case that under Section 5 of the Local Employment Act the Secretary of State has extensive responsibilities for the clearance of derelict sites, such as those in my constituency, the clearance of which we have been trying for years to get him to approve?
    Mr. Leburn: I am, of course, anxious to get on with derelict sites but I was answering the Question in the name of the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) about industry.

    Western Infirmary, Glasgow (Nurses' Home)
    Mr. Carmichaelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the future of the recently built nurses' home at the Western Infirmary, Glasgow.
    Mr. Brooman-White: The first plan for rebuilding this hospital, which would have involved demolition of the home, is now being reconsidered for

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    various reasons, including planning objections. Until the plan has been settled my right hon. Friend cannot make a statement.
    Mr. Carmichael: Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that, before any steps are taken to abolish this recently-built home, a public inquiry will he held to discover why it was ever built in its present position in the first place?
    Mr. Brooman-White: I doubt if that would help. This matter was seriously considered in 1948 and there was a failure to appreciate the needs of redevelopment on the site.

    South of Scotland Electricity Board
    Mrs. Hartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give a general direction to the South of Scotland Electricity Board to revise its estimates of probable power needs in the next 10 years in terms of the consequences of a more rapid rate of economic growth in Scotland.
    Mr. Leburn: There is no need for my right hon. Friend to give such a direction, because he is assured that the Board will shortly be revising its estimates in the light of this winter's experience and will take account of all relevant factors.
    Mrs. Hart: Is the Under-Secretary aware that there is much more to this than merely taking account of this winter's weather? Is he aware that the South of Scotland Electricity Board estimates that for the next 10 years—as it appeared in the Report of the Mackenzie Committee—they reckon to just about double the supply of electricity in Scotland before 1971? This is about the same rate achieved in England and Wales in the last 10 years, which corresponds to a rate of economic growth of between 1 and 3½ per cent. In fact, if Scotland is to have a 5 to 6 per cent. rate of economic growth, we must have much more electricity than that.
    Mr. Leburn: One purpose of the review of load estimates which the Board will be making is to answer the kind of questions which the hon. Lady has just asked.
    Mr. Clark Hutchison: Can my hon. Friend say how much additional generat-
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    ing capacity the South of Scotland Electricity Board is going to supply over the next few years?
    Mr. Leburn: In the next six years additional generating capacity of 1,890 megawatts plus 400 megawatts of pump storage.
    Mrs. Hart: Does the hon. Gentleman fully appreciate that according to the Report of the Mackenzie Committee the South of Scotland Electricity Board bases its estimates on reports which it receives from its area managers. These cannot take any account of general economic developments which it is the Secretary of State's responsibility to find out.
    Mr. Leburn: We can certainly take that matter into account, but since the hon. Lady has been quoting from the Mackenzie Report she should remember that the Mackenzie Committee was also satisfied that the procedures which the Board uses for its estimates were satisfactory.

    Road Improvements, East Kilbride
    Mrs. Hartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he proposes to take to enable work to begin at once on road improvements in East Kilbride, costing approximately £625,000, for which schemes are prepared and professional staff available, and which would offer considerable opportunities for employment to unskilled workers in Lanarkshire.
    Mr. Leburn: The outstanding schemes in East Kilbride are longer term than those my right hon. Friend has been able to authorise as making an immediate contribution to the relief of unemployment in Lanarkshire. He hopes, however, to authorise shortly a scheme costing £205,000 on A.776 between the Generals Bridge and East Kilbride.
    Mrs. Hart: Is the Under-Secretary aware that this is just one example of the way in which the Government, by refraining from sanctioning public expenditure, are limiting the amount of employment in Scotland? Is he not aware that throughout Scotland there are cases where work could be begun—work which would give employment—if the Government were prepared to spend the money?
    Mr. Leburn: I have already approved 17 schemes for grant purposes for Lanarkshire. Their total cost is about £120,000, with £76,000 being grant, but we have to look at all the road schemes in Scotland in their proper priority.

    Houses (Design)
    Mr. Brewisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to see that the best possible architectural designs are obtained for houses erected by industrialised methods following the issue of circular 6/1963.
    Mr. Leburn: My right hon. Friend's professional advisers and those of the housing authorities are alive to the need for good design in building by industrialised methods, as in any other kind of house building, but I am glad to take this opportunity of underlining the importance of good design.
    Mr. Brewis: Would not my hon. Friend agree that these designs will affect the landscape of Scotland for several generations? Would he consider running an architectural competition, with a suitable prize, and choosing a few of the best designs for submission to local authorities?
    Mr. Leburn: There is no doubt that we must get these designs right and I am always looking for bright ideas. I will be glad to consider what my hon. Friend has said.
    Mr. Manuel: Is not the Under-Secretary aware that when very good architectural designs are submitted to St. Andrew's House they are turned down in most cases because they are more expensive than the ordinary square block type of house which is the traditional type the Tories want built in Scotland?
    Mr. Leburn: No, Sir.

    New Power Station
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give an assurance that before reaching any decision on the South of Scotland Electricity Board's plans regarding the type of the new power station, in the light of their consultants' report, he will give full weight to the effect this decision will have on the Scottish mining industry and related industries.
    Mr. Leburn: Yes, Sir.

    Drugs
    Mr. Benceasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he proposes taking to prevent the drugs dexedrine, drimonil, and nembutal being obtained by young people, other than by medical prescription.
    Mr. Brooman-White: The supply of these drugs to the public is confined by law to medical prescription. I understand that police inquiries are being made in Glasgow into an alleged black market in these drugs. Any evidence that the law is being broken should be brought to the notice of the criminal authorities.
    Mr. Bence: If reports which have appeared in the Glasgow Press are true, it is a disgusting reflection on the way in which these drugs are distributed and handled by those who are responsible for distributing and handling them. When can we expect something drastic to be done to prevent these pernicious things getting into the hands of young people?
    Mr. Brooman-White: The law provides that these drugs should be given only on prescription. If there is any evidence of abuse of that we should certainly be in favour of most vigorous action being taken.
    Mr. Hoy: Is the Under-Secretary aware that this is becoming a serious problem and that it has been raised in connection with certain cases in the Scottish courts? Could he ask his right hon. Friend to look into this matter to see if there is any way of preventing the abuse of this service by certain people in certain parts of the country?
    Mr. Brooman-White: We certainly take this matter most seriously, but I think that we had better wait and see what comes out of the police inquiry before considering further action.

WELSH AFFAIRS
Matter of Industry and Employment in Wales and Monmouthshire, being a matter relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire, referred to the Welsh Grand Committee for their consideration.—[Sir K. Joseph.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  LONDON GOVERNMENT BILL
  (CLAUSE 1 AND SCHEDULE 1)
  [2ND ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee [Progress 13th February].
  [Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]

  LONDON GOVERNMENT BILL

    Schedule 1.—(THE LONDON BOROUGHS.)
    3.30 p.m.
    Mr. John Parker: I beg to move, in page 89, line 10, column 2, to leave out "The borough of Ilford" and to insert:
    "So much of the borough of Ilford as lies north and west of the boundary referred to in paragraph 8 of Part II of this Schedule".
    The Chairman: With this Amendment it will he possible also to discuss the following Amendments:
    In page 89, line 17, column 2, leave out from "Romford" to end of line 18 and insert:
    "so much of the urban district of Hornchurch as lies north of the boundary referred to in paragraph 9 of the said Part II".
    In line 19, column 3, leave out "2" and insert "3".
    In line 21, column 2, leave out "and".
    In line 24, column 2, at end insert:
    "so much of the borough of Ilford as lies south and east of the boundary referred to in paragraph 8 of the said Part II and so much of the urban district of Hornchurch as lies south of the boundary referred to in paragraph 9 of the said Part II".
    In line 25, column 2, leave out from "The" to "and" in line 28 and insert:
    "county borough of East Ham and the borough of Barking".
    In line 25, column 2, leave out from "county" to end of line 31 and insert "borough of East Ham".
    In line 25, column 3, leave out "3" and insert "2".
    In page 91, line 45, at end insert:
    8. The boundary of the London borough numbered 14 in the said Part I in the existing borough of Ilford shall be such as the Minister may by order determine on or near the general line beginning at a point where the eastern boundary of the borough crosses the railway west of Chadwell Heath Station and running
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    in a south-westerly direction at the back of the houses on the west side of Burnside Road, Mayfield Road and Green Lane then crossing Green Lane to the northern end of Goodmayes Park and then along the eastern edge of Goodmayes Park to the southern end of Aberdour Road to its junction with Mayes-brook Road then crossing Mayesbrook Road and again along the eastern boundary of Goodmayes Park till its junction with Goodmayes Lane and then along the east side of Goodmayes Lane to its junction with the boundary of the present borough of Barking in Longbridge Road.
    In line 45, at end insert:
    8. The boundary of the London borough numbered 16 in the said Part I in the existing urban district of Hornchurch shall he such as the Minister may by order determine on or near the general line beginning at a point where the western boundary of the urban district meets Rainham Road and running in an easterly direction along Rainham Road, Wood Lane, Penrith Crescent and Wood Lane to the junction of Wood Lane and South End Road and then running in an easterly direction along the northern boundary of Hornchurch Aerodrome and thence in an easterly direction to the point where it meets Berwick Pond Road, thence in a southerly direction along Berwick Pond Road to its junction with Little Gerpins Lane, thence in an easterly and northerly direction along Little Gerpins Lane to its junction with Aveley Road, and thence in a southerly direction along Aveley Road to its junction with Warwick Lane.
    In page 89, line 48, at end insert:
    23 / the county borough of West Ham / 1
    In line 24, column 2, at end insert:
    "and so much of the borough of Ilford as lies west, south-east and east of the boundary referred to in paragraph 8 of the said Part II".
    In page 91, line 45, at end insert:
    8. The boundary of the London borough numbered 16 in the said Part I in the existing borough of Ilford shall he such as the Minister may by order determine on or near the point on the west side of South Park Drive at which the existing boundary turns westwards, continuing southward to Longbridge Road and following the existing boundary north-eastward along that road, turning north-west along Brixham Gardens, north-east along the northwest side of four blocks of Barking Borough Council flats, and south-east to rejoin the existing boundary in Longbridge Road.
    In page 89, column 2, leave out lines 19 to 24 and insert:
    "The borough of Barking including so much of the borough as lies west of the boundary referred to in paragraph 5 of Part II of this Schedule".
    In line 24, at end insert:
    17 / The borough of Dagenham / 1
    In line 25, column 3, leave out "3" and insert "4".
    Mr. Parker: Borough No. 16 consists of the present boroughs of Dagenham and Barking less the Dagenham part of Hainault and that area of Barking West of the Creek. If the Bill goes through as it now is, this borough will have a population of 178,926. It will, therefore, be the second smallest of all the proposed new boroughs, and my Amendment seeks to bring it up to a par with its neighbours. As all hon. Members will agree there is, naturally, opposition on the part of any local authority to the loss of either land, population or rateable value, so I shall not be surprised if, when the opportunity comes, some of my hon. Friends on whose territories I would be trepassing object to the proposals.
    The town clerks' report stated, in paragraph 87:
    "In regard to the wards of Rainham and South Hornchurch it is considered that there are factors which would support the addition of at least part of the two wards to the new borough formed by the amalgamation of Barking and Dagenham … There was also a proposal for the adjustment of the Ilford and Barking/Dagenham boundary in connection with the Becontree housing estate."
    The paragraph goes on to say:
    "… as these two boundary proposals are to some extent related it would appear more appropriate to consider the whole boundary question in this vicinity at the same time."
    The town clerks then add that they think that the whole question should be considered after the passing of the Bill.
    I must submit very strongly that these are major alterations, and that if they are to be carried out they should be carried out as part of the Bill and that they should not be reconsidered after this Measure is enacted. All over the Greater London area committees are already meeting to carry out re-warding in accordance with the proposals in the Bill, and it would be very wrong to have to re-ward the boroughs again after the Bill is on the Statute Book in order to take into account proposals like these. I therefore suggest that the proposals should be dealt with here and now if they are reasonable proposals as I shall now try to show that they are.
    I turn, first, to the Becontree Estate. The larger part of this estate is in Dagenham and a large part is in Barking, but about one-fifth of it is in Ilford. There is a very strong case for bringing the whole of this housing estate within
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    one local authority area. It has been suggested on a number of occasions, and it was strongly pressed in the early days when the estate was first built, but nobody ever got round to doing anything about it.
    The Bill proposes that the whole of the London County Council Hainault Estate should be brought into the new larger Ilford, and there is a very strong case for that. That estate is now divided between three separate boroughs. I suggest that there is an equally strong case for bringing the whole of the Becontree Estate inside one borough, and I suggest that that borough should be Borough No. 16, which would already have the greater part of the estate.
    There is a natural boundary separating the Becontree area from the rest of Ilford from railway sidings in the north and then down the full length of Goodmayes Park. Separated by these natural boundaries, the population would be about 9,000. There is already wide agreement on the part of both Ilford and Dagenham Councils that this would be a desirable thing to do, but the two councils differ in that Ilford believes that in return for handing over this area it should be given the Marksgate Estate and part of Chad-well Heath. Dagenham takes the view that it has already handed over a large part of the Hainault Estate to Ilford and that that this is fair recompense and, in any case, it does not think that its population should be cut any further.
    The Marksgate Estate was built on the initiative of the Dagenham Council quite recently, and is, in the main, occupied by Dagenham tenants. A small part of the estate is across the Ilford boundary. When the proposal for compulsory purchase powers came forward to buy the land for the estate, Ilford objected to the purchase of that piece, but finally agreed to the proposal on the understanding that it could build the houses and put in the tenants on that corner. The two parts of Marksgate have thus been settled from the two boroughs. I do not think, therefore, that there is as strong a case for uniting this estate under one authority as there is in other cases.
    The original White Paper said that the Rainham and South Hornchurch area should be part of the new Dagenham-Barking Borough. The town clerks' report was marginally against. The

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    population of the area at present is about 28,000. There will be very strong advantages to Borough No. 16 if these wards are brought into its boundaries. Most important from the point of view of the people of Dagenham and Barking is the fact that they would obtain extra building land. We are very short of building land in both Dagenham and Barking; practically all the area is built up apart from those areas that are scheduled to be open spaces. In fact, our population is, on the whole, declining because of lack of building sites. That is the most important argument in favour of adding these two wards.
    Another very important factor is that it would unite the whole of the South Essex Industrial Estate within one local authority, and the whole of that estate from Barking Creek to Rainham forms a natural unit. At present, the Ford factory traverses the boundary. Most of the factory is in Dagenham, but the new foundry is in Hornchurch. It is obviously absurd to have a boundary going through the middle of a factory in that way. The whole of the South Essex Industrial Estate is within one employment exchange area. There is thus a strong case for bringing in this industrial belt into one local authority area.
    The town clerks' main objection was that in South Hornchurch there was a Hornchurch housing estate straddling the proposed boundary, with 451 houses south of the proposed boundary. The boundary could be so drawn as to leave this part of this housing estate within Hornchurch. A glance at the map, however, shows that South Hornchurch and Rainham are joined to the rest of Horn-church by one road and a very narrow belt of built-up land. The present boundary, which was only redefined in 1958 between these wards and the rest of Hornchurch would appear to be much the best natural boundary, especially as much of the land still left open is to be green belt.
    This new Borough No. 16, if these proposals were carried out, would have a population of 216,000 and Borough No. 15, that is Hornchurch and Romford without these two wards, would then have a population of 214,000. It would still make it much smaller than Borough No. 14, that is Ilford and the other boroughs with it minus the Becontree
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    Estate, with a population of 240,000. In other words, this would do a great deal to bring up the Dagenham-Barking Borough to near par with its neighbours and would still leave a large amount of land in the Hornchurch-Romford area still available for building, so that a further opportunity to meet the expansion of the population there, which obviously would be required, would not be lost.
    The Essex Parliamentary electorate of 825,252 represents approximately 15 per cent. of the Greater London Council electorate. There is a strong case for having that large part of the Greater London area represented on a fair basis on the Council. This would entitle the Essex area to 15 members instead of the present proposed 14. I suggest that the extra representative should be given to Borough No. 16 to bring up the Essex number to the number to which it is fairly entitled.
    Mr. A. E. Cooper: In so far as any of the Amendments refer to any part of the Borough of Ilford, I am asked by the Ilford Borough Council to resist them. My instructions are not based on any objection to the principle behind the Amendments, as I have already informed the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Parker) and the hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg). I think that the principle behind the Amendments is accepted by all three authorities.
    The objection to their being dealt with at this time is simply because my authority feels that so far there has not been adequate discussion between the three authorities and that it ought to be possible in the near future to bring before Parliament what is in effect an agreed scheme. I want to ask my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government only one question. The proposals which my authority will have at a later date in conjunction with the Boroughs of Dagenham and Barking will be to bring forward adjustments to the borough boundaries and we hope that it will be possible to do this under Clause 8.
    Without anticipating any discussion taking place in Committee upstairs, I should like to have an assurance from my right hon. Friend that such boundary changes as these, which may be considered to be major, will be possible under Clause 6.
    Mr. Tom Driberg: Both my hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham (Mr. Parker) and the hon Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) have set a very good example in speaking briefly, which I hope we shall all try to follow. The Government's concession in allowing this part of the Bill to be taken on the Floor of the House—which we certainly appreciate very much—is largely offset by the imposition of the Guillotine.
    If we are to allow the Minister to get up, as I suppose we should, at about 4.30 p.m., it means that we have an hour to debate a series of Amendments on which a large number of hon. Members may wish to speak. Therefore, we now see that those ministerial assurances that every Amendment would be considered on merit, in the light of the full arguments that could be advanced at this stage, were just humbug. I recall that in the debate on the Question, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill", I, for one, explained that I was reserving my detailed argument on the case of Barking for this stage, and the Minister gave me what I took to be an encouraging nod. I now realise that, since he must have known at that time that the Guillotine was to come down, I misunderstood that mutely misleading gesture of assent. It really meant only "Just you wait and see! You won't have the time to do it".
    I must, therefore, make the case for Barking in skeleton form. It is a twofold case—the historical case, and the case that there is here an efficient and adequate unit of local government. The latter could hardly be contested by the Minister or by anybody else who knows the modern record of Barking Borough Council on housing and all the other matters with which it is concerned. Therefore, in this instance, I had better confine myself mainly to the historical case.
    In a sense, every borough in and near London is unique, but some are rather more unique than others. It is not true that all have equally historic traditions, as identifiable and self-contained communities. Some—and it would be invidious to name any—are a rather dreary collection of mean streets, redeemed only by the spirit of their people. I put this historical point especially to the Minister. He can hardly undervalue it after his eloquent defence, largely on these grounds, of the City of London.
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    3.45 p.m.
    It may surprise the right hon. Gentleman to know that the history of local government in Barking goes back at least to the second century A.D. There was a British camp there and it was used by the Romans. It was strongly constructed and its administration must clearly qualify as an embryonic form of local government. By Saxon times there was a settlement—and I ask the Minister to note this—on both sides of the River Roding, and in 666 the great Abbey of Barking was founded by St. Erkenwald, later Bishop of London. When Erkenwald was old and infirm he used to drive around my constituency in a wheeled litter. He was once miraculously saved from injury when a wheel came off the litter—an incident foreshadowing, long ago, the work of the highly efficient road safety committee of the present local authority. When Erkenwald died there was an unseemly dispute about the disposal of his remains. A mob from London carried his body off, thus anticipating the present Government's rape of this ancient borough's most remunerative piece of rateable value.
    I must skip the Norman Conquest, William the Conqueror's retirement to Barking, Domesday Book, and the remarkable privileges of the abbey, whose abbess raised her own troops, hunted in the forest, sat as a peer of the realm, played a part in Jack Cade's rebellion, took in paying guests, and enjoyed, of course, the full manorial rights of warpeni, sac and soc, tholl and theam, and infangtheof. Queen Matilda first built bridges over the Roding, thus consolidating the community which the Minister now wants to sever.
    In short, Barking was a place of substance when Dagenham and the Hams—with all respect to my hon. Friends—were hardly villages. In the 1840's it maintained a fishing fleet of 200 vessels. It fits in very well as it is, and as it will be if left alone, with the Minister's glowing picture of the ideal urban community. In the centre of the borough, near the ancient parish church and the recently built town hall, a great area is being cleared and lawns and gardens are to be laid out. But—and this brings me to a point which I touched on in the debate on Second Reading—this "sophisticated metropolitain hub", to use the Minister's phrase,

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    will not be the hub of the joint borough. It will be at one end of it. At the other end will be Dagenham's civic centre, also recently built at great cost. Either would be equally inconvenient for most of the inhabitants of the joint borough.
    I stress this point since the Minister made se much of it himself when he was speaking of Wandsworth, Battersea and Lambeth. I hope that he will give me an answer. There was no answer when I raised it before—because, of course, "all these details can be dealt with in Committee."
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Sir Keith Joseph): I was referring to the hub of London as a whole, the centre of London as a whole.
    Mr. Driberg: I thank the Minister very much for clarifying some remarks which, though eloquent, were not altogether clear when he made them, as he will see if he refers to HANSARD. In any case, these details cannot all be dealt with in Committee, as we now know. In view of the way we have been treated, I hope that the Minister, when winding up, will be good enough to deal at least with this point about the town halls and with the specific point I made on Second Reading about the removal from Barking of the land west of the Roding. To save time, I shall not repeat what I then said about the visiting town clerk's geographical fallacy. The right hon. Gentleman can have it looked up in HANSARD.
    I put two further specific points. Barking does not want to be merged with Dagenham—if, it must be merged, it would go more naturally with East Ham—but it would be willing, if allowed to remain separate, to set up and serve on a joint education committee with Dagenham.
    I had better refer at this stage, too, because there will not be another chance, to the other Amendment which I have put down, in page 89, line 24, col. 2, at the end to insert:
    "and so much of the borough of Ilford as lies west. south-east and east of the boundary referred to in paragraph 8 of the said Part II."
    This Amendment does touch on the interests of Ilford, but it is so small, involving quite a modest amount of rateable value and only a few hundred inhabitants, that I hope that it will be acceptable to Ilford and to the Minister.
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    In conclusion, I quote the motto of the borough which I have the honour to represent, "Deo gratia sumus quad swims"—"By the Grace of God, we are what we are". Unless the Minister accepts my status quo Amendment—as I earnestly beg him to—or, at the least, undertakes to consult the local authorities, as he did in the case of Wandsworth when pressed from the other side of the Committee, then, by the singular lack of grace of Her Majesty's Government, we shall not be what we have been.
    Mr. Godfrey Lagden: I am fortified this afternoon by seeing on the opposite benches the hon. Member for Romford (Mr. Ledger), who, I imagine, will agree with much of what I have to say, though I do not expect that my remarks will bring much solace to the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Parker).
    The hon. Member for Dagenham has already spoken of the declining population in his area. We know this to be a fact, and it must be apparent to the hon. Gentleman that there are many more people who would wish to escape from the concrete jungle of Dagenham if they possibly could. However, this hardly seems a good reason to justify Dagenham's endeavour to filch from Hornchurch, that fair and quite delightful place, part of its land in an endeavour not only to provide better facilities for those who, unfortunately, have to live in Dagenham, but, at the same time, to obtain the rates which are very considerable in that particular part.
    Since the hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg) has given us such a historical treat, with quotations, perhaps I may remind the Committee that Havering-atte-Bower is even older than all our other districts put together. Indeed, at one time Hornchurch, Rom-ford and Barking were very largely contained by Havering-atte-Bower. I suggest that, when the time comes and the happy wedding is made between Romford and Hornchurch, the city fathers might find it convenient, in order to avoid quarrels over names such as Hornford or Romchurch, to revert once again to the delightful name of Havering-atte-Bower.
    On this occasion, if it gives any pleasure to the Minister, we say that his

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    suggestions for the boundaries of Horn-church and Romford are as the words of Solomon. Nothing better could have been agreed or arrived at, if these two boroughs are to go together, as, of course, we now recognise that they must.
    The two peoples, the Romfordians and the Hornchurchians—or whatever one may call them—have a great community of interest. Their streets run into one another. They take their amusements in the same buildings, some being in one borough and some in the other. There is little or no doubt that, if a part of this area were taken away and joined to Dagenham, there would be great distress among the inhabitants. It is well known to the hon. Member for Dagenham that, when the town clerks who came down to try to see what could be done actually suggested that Rainham and South Hornchurch should leave Hornchurch and go to Dagenham, the feelings of the people who found themselves likely to be severed were very high indeed. They showed in quite unmistakeable terms that they did not wish to have anything whatsoever to do with Dagenham.
    I have followed the example of my colleagues in being brief because I know that there are many who wish to speak. I ask the Committee to resist the Amendment, which has nothing whatever to recommend it.
    Mr. A. E. Oram: The series of Amendments which the Committee is now considering covers all the riverside boroughs from the London County Council boundary, on the one hand, to the proposed boundary of the Greater London Council, on the other. Although, when one takes all the Amendments together, they do not add up to a perfectly consistent alternative to what is proposed in the Bill, they do point to the fact that the Minister's proposals fail to carry the support of the local authorities throughout this whole area. This being so, I seriously put it to the Minister that something has gone wrong with his planning, even from his own point of view. Of course, as he recognises, we have strong objections to the Bill as a whole, but, even accepting his major premise about reorganisation, there is something out of keeping here with what he has suggested.
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    The Minister has said that he is quite prepared to listen to representations from local authorities and from hon. Members about alternative groupings of boroughs. Throughout the entire area of the Greater London Council there is no better place than the area covered by these Amendments for him to exercise the discretion to which he lays claim and to have second thoughts. He should ask himself whether the proposals put forward in, at least, some of these Amendments represent a distinct improvement upon his own which he ought to accept.
    The point of view of those who have put their names to the various Amendments and of the local authorities with which we are associated is not just, "Leave us alone". It is more than that. In certain cases, very strong arguments can be adduced for such an attitude. My hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg) adduced very strong arguments in connection with his own borough, and I know that my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) will be seeking to put forward the very powerful case which exists for East Ham remaining as a separate county borough, with a long history of very efficient local administration. However, I stress again that, taken together, the Amendments are not based on the principle of, "For goodness' sake, leave us alone".
    4.0 p.m.
    There is an alternative suggestion of regrouping that the Minister should seriously consider. The kingpin of such a different regrouping is contained in my Amendment in page 89, line 25, column 2, to leave out from "The" to "and" in line 28 and to insert:
    "county borough of East Ham and the borough of Barking".
    That Amendment proposes that instead of linking East Ham with West Ham, East Ham should be linked with Barking. People who know the area recognise that that is a much better and more logical arrangement and would be more likely to lead to good local government than the suggestion contained in the Bill.
    East Ham's opposition to being linked with West Ham is not, as, I am sure, my hon. Friends who represent West Ham will accept, due to any antipathy towards them. The two county boroughs are good neighbours. Each in its own way

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    has a good record. There seems to be an idea that there used to be a place called Ham, which, at some point in history, became split into East Ham and West and that the sensible, logical and simple thing to do is to join East and West Ham together once again. That theory has no basis of historical truth and is a fallacy which underlies the mistake which is being made in the Bill.
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: A ham argument.
    Mr. Oram: When West Ham became a county borough in 1888, at the earliest possible opportunity, East Ham was little more than a village surrounded by fields. The two communities are different in character. It is not a question of simply finking two parts which at one time came to be severed.
    From the viewpoint of future administration, I suggest that the Minister is making, a mistake. The London boroughs which are being set up are broadly comparable in their powers and functions with county authorities. Therefore, it seems sensible, where there are already two county boroughs, to make the maximum use of the experience of the staff and of the equipment, both human and material, which exists in these two county boroughs and to carry it to the maximum possible extent into the future arrangements. The sensible thing to do in that connection would be to link East Ham with Barking, which hitherto has not had county borough status. West Ham prefers to be left on its own. If, however, it is necessary to add other neighbours to it, some other arrangement could be arrived at.
    It would be a complete waste of experience and of expertise to fail to use the county borough experience of East Ham and West Ham in two separate new organisations. There would be advantage, too, from the point of view of town halls and civic centres. The proposal of the Bill would lead to the East Ham town hall being in the extreme south-east of the proposed new London borough and the town hall of West Ham being in the extreme north-west of the proposed new London borough, both of them equally badly sited from the viewpoint of administration of what the Minister proposes to set up. If, on the other hand, East Ham were linked with Barking, either East Ham town hall or the new
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    civic centre of Barking, or both together, would be a suitably sited set of premises for carrying on the administration of the new borough.
    One other advantage of the proposal contained in my Amendment is that the awkward financial problem which Barking foresees in losing the rateable value of the gas board's property would be avoided. Seen from the East Ham side of the Roding, this is not quite such a problem as my hon. Friend the Member for Barking sees it. Certainly, the proposed merger of Barking and East Ham would avoid this financial difficulty.
    Therefore, I earnestly urge the Minister to agree that a case has been made in this whole area for a different pattern of mergers and for him not to accept any one or two or three of the particular Amendments but to recognise that there must be new thinking. I suggest that of that new thinking, my Amendment in page 89, line 25, column 2, should be the centre-piece upon which a vast amount of common ground could be found to exist in all the local authorities in the area and that a much more harmonious outcome of this business would be achieved.
    Mr. Michael Stewart: On a point of order, Sir William. We are discussing a number of Amendments together and we cannot vote on them all. Several hon. Members, therefore, must reconcile themselves to the fact that they cannot express their feeling by vote on the Amendment in which they are most interested. If matters go to a vote, they would, therefore, have to ask themselves whether they could get as near as possible to expressing their views by voting upon an Amendment that had the good fortune to be put to the vote.
    Hon. Members who are interested in East Ham and West Ham and Barking could, I think, in default of their own favourite Amendments, reasonably regard the Amendment in page 89, column 2, to leave out lines 19 to 24 and to insert:
    "The borough of Barking including so much of the borough as lies west of the boundary referred to in paragraph 5 of Part II of this Schedule",
    as a suitable way of expressing what they feel, whereas they could not so regard the Amendments in page 89, lines 10 and 17, which deal with a rather different area.

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    May I ask you, therefore, Sir William, whether, if time permits and the Committee has disposed of the Amendments in lines 10 and 17 in time, you would be good enough to be willing to put the Amendment in page 89, column 2, to the vote?
    The Chairman: If that were the wish of the Committee, I see nothing against it.
    Mr. R. E. Prentice: In the fantastically short time that is available to us to discuss these large matters, I wish to speak briefly in support of the proposition contained in the Amendments in page 89, line 25, column 2, to leave out from "county" to end of line 31 and to insert "borough of East Ham", and in page 89, line 25, column 3, to leave out "3" and to insert "2".
    My hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Oram) and I agreed to divide our task. My hon. Friend has spoken to the case for merging East Ham with Barking rather than with West Ham. I said that I would put what is still the first choice of the council and people of East Ham, and that is that East Ham should remain as a county borough with, perhaps, minor boundary adjustment but without the type of change envisaged by the Government.
    I say, however, to my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg) that as far as the battle of Barking Creek is concerned, if we cannot merge with Barking we have a very different view about the land west of the Roding. It sometimes seems to us that the only decent thing in the whole Bill is the transfer of this land to our county borough, which needs its rateable value. We support the proposition of the town clerks when they said that:
    "The present boundaries are plainly anomalous however and should at some stage be altered to conform with the natural boundaries formed by the rivers."
    My hon. Friend also went into the history of Barking. If I may take an excursion into the history of the Hams, it was 903 years ago when the Saxon manor of Ham was split into two along the line of the ancient British trackway of Greenstreet. Green Street still separates the two county boroughs. Since then, the two areas have developed separately. I agree with my hon. Friend that there seems to be a superficial attraction
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    to the Government in the idea that because both areas are called Ham, somehow they should be merged. No case has been made on the merits, however, for the merger. Certainly, it was not made by the Town Clerk of Plymouth, who held the inquiry, and probably it will not be made from the Government bench today, because they will be saved by their own Guillotine.
    When the Royal Commission considered the area, it recommended that East Ham should continue as a borough on its own and should not be merged with anyone. It gave it a clean bill of health following its 60-year record as a county borough, in which it has established itself as one of the most progressive authorities in the whole of Britain. The only reason why the Government changed the policy recommended by the Royal Commission was their decision that education should be taken from the Greater London Council and farmed out to the boroughs.
    On that point, as to East Ham I remind the Committee that the Ministry of Education, when giving evidence to the Royal Commission, gave a very good account of East Ham's record as an education authority. Secondly, the Royal Commission itself identified East Ham as one of the most successful education authorities in the Greater London region.
    If one looks at the facts—there are many which I should like to give, but time does not allow—I do not think that there is anything to be said for the idea that there is an optimum size for an education authority. Experience suggests that throughout Britain there are many successful education authorities both large and small, as well as unsuccessful ones both large and small.
    Since the end of the war, East Ham has provided six new secondary schools and four new primary schools, which in relation to its size is a remarkable achievement. Three months ago, it opened a new technical college for 7,000 students, a college which has attracted much favourable attention from education authorities throughout the country. Since the war, East Ham began the Lansbury School for Disabled Children, the first special school of its kind in Britain, which has an international reputation and whose work attracts people from all over the world. The authority maintains its

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    own residential education college at Debden, Essex, which is used extensively by other people as well as those of East Ham.
    East Ham is an education authority which attracts teachers because of its progressive record. It has a better pupil-teacher ratio than the average and in primary schools it is very much better. This, again, is an indication of its success as an education authority. It was one of the first local authorities in Britain to introduce a full range of G.C.E. courses in its secondary modern schools and the results from those courses compare very well with the results elsewhere. It cannot be faulted as an education authority and there is no case on educational grounds for altering its status.
    If there were time, I could go into many other fields of local government in East Ham's record, but I must confine myself to one or two examples. In the field of housing, one of its estates, at Ingrave, was awarded the Minister of Housing's medal for its design, its layout and other policies connected with it. The new estate of Aldersbrook achieved the national award from the Civic Trust. As a children's authority—the test is often made for a children's authority as to the extent to which it is able to board its children out—in East Ham 79 per cent. of the children in the care of the authority are boarded out and that is the eighth highest percentage in England and Wales.
    In the field of youth employment more of its school leavers are placed through the Youth Employment Service than the average for England and Wales. In the matter of old people's housing the special housing policy which it has practised for old people has attracted favourable comment in the recent survey on these matters. I could go through the whole field of local government and say that the borough is a successful unit that has provided a good service to the people of the area.
    The proposals in the Bill as they affect East Ham are opposed by the council unanimously, by the ratepayers' association opposition as well as by the Labour majority. They have been opposed by the borough liaison committee on which is represented a wide variety of civic and social organisations in the borough.
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    There is no feeling locally in favour of what the Government are doing. In fact, they are riding rough-shod over the opinion of the people concerned and experienced in this field. I repeat that I think that the Government are saved by the guillotine procedure from trying to defend the indefensible. There is no case for what they are doing to our borough and they have not attempted to make a case so far.
    4.15 p.m.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: Unfortunately, as the Committee is aware, owing to the Guillotine a number of my bon. Friends who would like to take part in this debate have had either to curtail their remarks or not take part at all. We must be very brief and try to get the Minister to see that in this particular instance there is a difference in these Amendments from any of the other Amendments that have been discussed so far during Committee stage.
    We are now aware that we have the situation in which no one at all—I emphasise, no one at all—in either East Ham or West Ham can be found to support the proposals in the Bill. In fact, the Royal Commission itself did not make this proposal. The unique situation of this set-up is that, unlike any other authority, we have two county boroughs which it has been suggested should be amalgamated. West Ham is one of the largest and oldest of the county boroughs and it has done an enormous amount of good work. I shall not enumerate all the work that it has done, except to endorse everything that my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) has said and I would say, with respect to him, that this is even more so with regard to West Ham.
    West Ham has had a most difficult job because as a result of the war it lost over one-quarter of its residential housing as well as factories and every other type of building, and it has been spending, on an average, about £2¼ million a year in carrying out the reconstruction of this area. I am told that in the current year about £5 million will be spent. West Ham has been able to do that because it has a relatively high rateable value on account of the industry which is there, and this is not exactly the case with East Ham.

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    I would emphasise the points that have been made by my hon. Friends for East Ham, North and East Ham, South (Mr. Oram). There is no affinity of interest between East Ham and West Ham. It is true that they happen to have the same name of Ham, which, I believe, dates from the Norman Conquest, but other than that there is no similarity.
    The point that the Minister must surely bear in mind is that here we have two county boroughs with two county borough staffs with the suggestion that we should amalgamate two sets of officials who will, in fact, be duplicating the work that could be done if there were an amalgamation, as has been suggested, in the interests of Barking. We could have the knowledge and experience of the local council officials who have knowledge of county borough administration in East Ham helping and assisting with regard to Barking.
    We claim that in West Ham we have on the Royal Commission's own basis enough population for the maintenance of a separate borough and indeed, if in a few years' time our population, which is now about 157,000, goes up, as estimated, to 162,000, then almost before this Bill becomes operative West Ham will have reached the figure of 168,000 which will be more than the proposed figure for the grouping in Borough No. 23 referred to in the Bill.
    In other words the county borough will have reached the size of Borough No. 23 with a population of 165,000 and before the Bill becomes operative West Ham in its own right will have exceeded that figure. I am suggesting to the Minister that it would be as well to leave the situation so far as West Ham is concerned because it will then have reached this figure. Not only is this the case with regard to Borough No. 23, but also Borough No. 21 which will have 169,000. West Ham will have reached the population figure of two boroughs which the Minister is at the moment creating, and will have done so before the Bill is operative.
    It has been said, and it is quite true, that there will be an enormous amount of waste of money incurred if the Minister's proposal goes through. It has been pointed out that we have one town hall and civic centre in East Ham, right at
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    the far eastern end, and we have a town hall and civic centre for West Ham at Stratford, and that is as near to the City as it can be. It would mean that there would have to be a new civic centre. Where, I do not know; but even if a site could be found for it, it would mean pulling down houses to make way for the new civic centre, and that would be wasteful expenditure, apart from the fact that the houses are much needed and the loss of them would be detrimental to the residents.
    I would ask the Minister to bear in mind also the fact, which he knows, that West Ham Council is at this very moment in the process of constructing one of the greatest schemes of development which has been envisaged in London this generation. It has a huge shopping scheme and residential area planned in Stratford at a cost of about £12 million. The Minister knows all this. That area will be developed, but all that scheme will be put into the melting pot because of the Minister sticking to this rigid rule of getting the two Hams together. If he does, I think that he will be creating difficulties for himself.
    I ask the right hon. Gentleman to look at this position, and to study in detail, if he has not already done so, the points which the County Borough of West Ham sent to him. On a previous occasion when we were considering this Bill he made some reference to the fact that many of the town clerks and local authorities had not troubled to reply to him, or to give him their opinions and points of view. That may have been true of some boroughs, but it is certainly not true and cannot be said to be true of West Ham.
    West Ham did send him a printed document, which I have here, and in which it not only argued against this regrouping, but put forward ideas and suggestions; and it most helpfully said that if the Minister persisted with his proposal, reluctant as it would be to see that, it would do its very utmost to work with him and, in accordance with good constitutional government—as West Ham is—it would carry out its obligations.
    All the same, it really is not fair that an area such as this, which suffered during the whole of the blitz, which has

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    been suffering ever since in trying to get on with its reconstruction, and which has done an enormous amount of works, should now find, because of this regrouping, that all its work is to be made more difficult and more expensive, because of the Minister's insistence upon pushing through this regrouping, which no one in East Ham or West Ham is anxious for.
    I know that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for West Ham, South (Mr. Elwyn Jones) will support us, so I win shorten my speech and say, lastly, that, as we have such a limited time to consider these matters in this Committee, I would ask the Minister to agree to meet a deputation of the Members of Parliament for East Ham and West Ham and Barking, and the representatives of the local authorities concerned, so that we can discuss this with him and spend a little time with the maps and with the facts and figures, which we can give to him and which, we think, will persuade him to give further consideration to this matter.
    In this situation in which we are, where the Guillotine is falling, we have not time and opportunity for full argument, and we know that the Minister is not in a position to give to the matter the deep consideration which it deserves. I would ask the Minister, when he replies to the debate, to give consideration to this request, on the ground that these are the only boroughs which are affected quite like this—two county boroughs being forced together in a marriage—unlike unions proposed for any other boroughs.
    Hence, in this exceptional circumstance, will he please give consideration to the proposal I am now putting to him, that he should have discussions with the interested people, that is to say, the councils and the appropriate officers, to see whether or not we can get some agreement which the Minister can accept when we consider the Bill on Report?
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: I should like particularly to reiterate the plea of my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. A. Lewis) for reconsideration of this diverse shotgun marriage. I would remind the Minister, with respect, that with regard to Battersea and
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    Lambeth and Wandsworth, after a good deal of pressure from his side of the Committee, he did give an undertaking that he would try to find a solution which reconciled the attitudes of ail three boroughs. I hope that it is not only pressure from his own side of the Committee to which he is susceptible, and that he will show an open mind to the real feeling which exists in these boroughs and on this side of the Committee when he is, in the interests of administrative tidiness, about to engage in a municipal wreckage.
    I suspect that we shall not hear from the Minister any indictment either of West Ham or, for that matter, of East Ham, because their record is excellent. I notice the Minister nods affirmatively.
    Mr. Driberg: Be careful of his nods!
    Mr. Elwyn Jones: I take his nod for "Yes" on this occasion.
    It is obvious there is no question of the high standard and record in municipal competence and integrity of West Ham, It is one of the biggest county borough, in the country; its financial resources are above the average; its undertakings of its enormous responsibilities since the war have been a model for, indeed, many parts of the world; the Minister has frequently taken deputations there from different countries of the world to see how things ought to be done.
    The important thing about the matter is that, so far certainly as West Ham is concerned, the Government's proposals are a departure from the recommendations of the Herbert Commission, so that on the merits, as considered by the Commission itself, West Ham clearly deserves to stand alone. I shall not retraverse the overwhelming administrative reasons why this forced marriage between East and West Ham is wholly impracticable and contrary to the interests of planning. The communications are centred, as we have heard, in the north-west, in West Ham, and, in the south-east, in East Ham, so that this shotgun marriage is really wholly misconceived.
    Accordingly, I hope that at the very least, if there is not acceptance of the Amendment, there will be an undertaking to have a further look at the matter in the interests of all concerned.
    4.30 p.m.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. F. V. Corfield): The hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg), when he opened his fascinating historical survey, made some complaints that the time allowed would not be sufficient to deploy all the arguments, but I can assure him, as I can assure the hon. and learned Member for West Ham, South (Mr. Elwyn Jones), that we have considered all these representations, both from the borough and the other local authorities, and we have gone into them most carefully with a view to trying to find what we believe to be the best answer, and I am sure that the Committee will appreciate that, we all being politicians within this building, we do not go out of our way, as seems to be suggested, to find the least popular answer. We have been guided by what we believe to be right.
    These Amendments refer to a very wide area, and in the first place suggest that both West Ham and East Ham should remain as separate entities, separate boroughs, and that the same should apply to Barking and Dagenham, with attached thereto, suggestions for minor adjustments to the boundary of Ilford, with repercussions when one comes to look into this, although they are not specifically mentioned in the Amendment, on the future of Hornchurch and Romford, on the one hand, and Leyton and Borough No. 13, on the other, and, no doubt, as one probes deeper, on the neighbouring boroughs and groups of boroughs.
    I am sure that the Committee will not expect me at this late stage to repeat the Government's views and arguments in favour of establishing a pattern of boroughs in the whole of Greater London based on a unit substantially larger than the 100,000 mentioned in the Herbert Commission and the basis of the county borough status laid down in the Local Government Act, 1958. These proposals are put forward in paragraphs 19 and 20 of the White Paper; they have been referred to over and over again, and I am sure that it is not necessary for me to refer to them again.
    But on numerous occasions in this debate we have also stressed—I am sure that the Committee agrees with this point —the great difficulty of making adjustments to one borough or two neighbour-
    468
    ing boroughs without having ramifications over an enormously wide area, and, indeed, the varieties of Amendment put forward and the clash of opinion between, for instance, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Lagden) and the hon. Member for Dagenham, and the quite different approach of hon. Members representing East Ham and West Ham to that of the hon. Member for Barking on certain particulars. This in itself shows the difficulty of finding an agreed solution looking at any one borough or adjoining boroughs in isolation.
    Mr. Oram: The hon. Gentleman has referred to differences between West Ham, East Ham and Barking. Has he noticed that the names of all hon. Members associated with all three boroughs are attached to the first Amendment tabled to line 25, column 2?
    Mr. Corfield: But I think the hon. Gentleman himself put forward—not, I admit, with any great strength—that West Ham would either be left on its own or be joined to some other borough, which would obviously be Leyton in this case. This shows that there are greater ramifications than at first feared. Even if we adopted the suggestion of leaving West Ham as a single entity, it is clear that neither by the 1958 Local Government Act criteria or even by the Herbert Commission criteria would Barking in itself be suitable if left entirely on its own.
    Fascinated as I was by the hon. Gentleman's speech, I think that it will surely be argued for some time ahead whether Barking is expanding its ancient boundaries, which I have no doubt have varied over the ages, or whether Horn-church is doing likewise. But if there is a quarrel on that score as to which of the pairs of the marriages is to honour and obey, this is surely in the historical tradition of the quarrel, albeit from a different geographical direction, over the remains of the bishop to whom he referred.
    We appreciate that East and West Ham are in a different position to some extent through being existing county boroughs with the full range of functions of local authorities. But this also applies to Croydon, which has a population very nearly as big as those two boroughs put together. I would remind the hon.

    469
    Gentleman that, despite the attractions of the argument he has deployed, this is not something which is wholly without precedent. London reorganisation is not the first time in which county boroughs have merged with other county boroughs. The existing county borough of Stoke-on-Trent includes an area of Hanley which was itself a county borough, and the position is similar with the City of Plymouth.
    If one looks at the map again and considers the suggestion made by the hon. Member that West Ham might go with another partner, I think it becomes clear that one goes right across normal lines of communication, which in this part of London, as in most others, tend to radiate from the centre rather than going laterally from north to south.
    Mr. Lewis: The hon. Gentleman mentioned Croydon, but there is no similarity there because Croydon is not being amalgamated with any other county borough. What I said was that East and West Ham are the only two county boroughs in this reorganisation area—we are not talking about the rest of the country—which are having, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for West Ham, South (Mr. Elwyn Jones) said, a shot-gun marriage forced on them. There is no other situation in London like that.
    Mr. Corfield: I appreciate that, but I was drawing the attention of the hon. Gentleman to the fact that the size of the combined area would still be in the same range as Croydon and that this is a matter which has to be faced in local government organisation and has had to be faced in the past.
    Mr. Frederic Harris: My hon. Friend mentioned Croydon as an example. Does that not emphasise the case that he should leave Croydon as it is?
    Mr. M. Stewart: The hon. Gentleman referred to the marriage of county boroughs and mentioned how Stoke-on-Trent was formed. But was that not done by consent and not by compulsion?
    Mr. Corfield: Yes. I think that that may well be true, but these questions arise, as the hon. Gentleman knows, in other parts of the country.
    470
    If one looks further east and accepts the hon. Gentleman's point of view that Barking and Dagenham should he separate, then we get a pattern in relation to the size of the units in this part of London which is Quite different from that in nearly all the rest of London around the immediate circumference of the centre. It is clear that in certain areas the boroughs are of somewhat similar population on the circumference, as geography really dictates, but in this part of London and at this sort of distance from the centre it will be found that the boroughs are, by and large, of a similar size to the pattern laid down in the Bill. If one refers, as I am sure every hon. Member had done, to the town clerks' report, it is emphasised there perhaps better than anywhere else what enormous ramifications are involved if we accept any of the major suggestions that have been put forward this afternoon in relation to this part of London.
    The hon. Member for Dagenham made a powerful case in moving the Amendment. I thank him for the courtesy of the very full forewarning of the case that he was going to make, and would emphasise that, once again, that has made it possible, despite the shortness of the debate, the Guillotine, and so on, to examine these arguments in very great detail. He was probably not surprised that my hon. Friend opposed the suggestion that he was making on behalf of Hornchurch and indicated that the hon. Member for Romford (Mr. Ledger) would probably be doing likewise if he managed to take part in the debate.
    However that may be, I think it emphasises the difficulty or inadvisability of including a boundary change of this sort when the Clause 6 procedure is available and where quid pro quo arrangements, which he referred to, with Ilford could be worked out with a public inquiry with my right hon. Friend making his decision. I think that it must be sound to minimise the changes in boundaries when we are amalgamating as far as possible whole districts, because such boundary changes must in themselves add to the transitional difficulties of adapting the services, and so on, in the early days of the new boroughs. But the Clause 6 procedure is there precisely for this purpose. It is a preferable procedure to that embodied in this type of Amendment.

    471
    I appreciate the arguments about warding, but I think that they are out-balanced by the disadvantages of making minor boundary changes before these amalgamations take place. I hope that the hon. Member will accept that we are going the right way about it and will take some cheer from the assurance of my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) that Ilford is by no means uncooperative in the matter, and that it is on record as being something desirable for the two boroughs to consider at an early stage of their joint existence.
    Having said all this, the Committee will not be surprised when I say that the Government cannot accept any of these Amendments. To do so would upset the whole pattern of the Bill. One hon. Member referred to the desirability of going back and finding a pattern based on a greater measure of agreement. But looking through the town clerks' report and the mass of papers put forward in representations, one finds no evidence that any other pattern would have a greater measure of agreement, or that disagreement is as great between the various authorities as some hon. Members have made out. There have been several noises of welcome for various amalgamations, and if we met an objection here or an objection there, there is no doubt that we should upset cases where there is agreement. On these grounds, the Government cannot accept any of these Amendments.
    Mr. Driberg: Will the hon. Gentleman, before he sits down, be kind enough to address himself to the only two points I asked him about—the question of the
    town halls and the land west of the Roding?
    Mr. Corfield: As I understand, the selection of which town hall is to be used, or where the centre is, is entirely a matter for the new borough.
    Mr. Driberg: Neither is convenient.
    Mr. Corfield: My information is that that is not so and that the Barking one could be made available.
    Mr. Driberg: Look at the map.
    Mr. A. Lewis: Where does the Minister get his information about agreement? We do not know about it. He claims to have information that these amalgamations are welcomed.
    Mr. Corfield: It is quite clear that Barking Town Hall is not in the middle of the new borough, nor is Dagenham's. But Barking Town Hall is not in the middle of Barking, either. I think that the hon. Member for Barking would agree that accessibility is not a matter of overriding difficulty.
    Mr. Driberg: The Minister said that it was.
    Amendment negatived.
    Amendment proposed: In page 89, column 2, leave out lines 19 to 24 and insert:
    "The borough of Barking including so much of the borough as lies west of the boundary referred to in paragraphs 5 of Part II of this Schedule".—[Mr. Driberg.]
    Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 238, Noes 185.

    Division No. 57.]

    AYES

    [4.44 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

    Curran, Charles

    Aitken, W. T.

    Bullard, Denys

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

    Burden, F. A.

    d'Avigdor-Goidsmid, Sir Henry

    Aliason, James

    Campbell, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Belfast, S.)

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

    Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

    Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

    Drayson, G. B.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Duncan, Sir James

    Batsford, Brian

    Chataway, Christopher

    Eden, John

    Bell, Ronald

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Bennett, Dr. ReginaSd (Gos & Fhm)

    Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

    Elliott, R. W. (Nwcstle-upon-Tyne, N.)

    Berkeley, Humphry

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

    Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    Cleaver, Leonard

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Biffen, John

    Cooke, Robert

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Cooper, A. E.

    Farr, John

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Cordeaux, Lt. -Col. J. K.

    Bishop, F. P.

    Cordle, John

    Fell, Anthony

    Bossom, Hon. Clive

    Corfield, F. V.

    Finlay, Graeme

    Bourne-Arton, A.

    Costain, A. P.

    Fisher, Nigel

    Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

    Coulson, Michael

    Forrest, George

    Box, Donald

    Oraddock, Sir Beresford

    Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

    Crawley, Aidan

    Freeth, Denzil

    Brewis, John

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Ollver

    Gammans, Lady

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt. -Col. Sir Walter

    Cunningham, Knox

    George, Sir John (Pollok)

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

    Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central)

    Longbottom, Charles

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

    Longden, Gilbert

    Rippon, Rt. Hon. Geoffrey

    Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

    Lubbock, Eric

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Goodhew, Victor

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

    Gower, Raymond

    MacArthur, Ian

    Seymour, Leslie

    Grant-Ferris, ft.

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Sharpies, Richard

    Green, Alan

    Maclay, Rt, Hon. John

    Shaw, M.

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    McLean, Neil (Inverness)

    Shepherd, William

    Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Skeet, T. H. H.

    Gurden, Harold

    McMaster, Stanley R.

    Smith, Dudley (Br'ntfd & Chiewlck)

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Maddan, Martin

    Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Maginnis, John E.

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Maitland, Sir John

    Stanley, Hon. Richard

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

    Marshall, Douglas

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Marten, Neil

    Stodart, J. A.

    Hastings, Stephen

    Mawby, Ray

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Hay, John

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

    Maydon, Lt. -Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Tapsell, Peter

    Hendry, Forbes

    Mills, Stratton

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

    Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Moore, Sir Thomas (Ayr)

    Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, N.)

    Hill, J. E. B. (Norfolk)

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    Teeling, Sir William

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Morgan, William

    Temple, John M.

    Hocking, Philip N.

    Morrison, John

    Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

    Holland, Philip

    Nabarro, Sir Gerald

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Hollingworth, John

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Thomas, Peter (Conway)

    Holt, Arthur

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

    Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton)

    Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

    Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

    Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    Hopkins, Alan

    Nugent, Rt, Hon Sir Richard

    Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

    Hornby, R. P.

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Turner, Colin

    Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

    Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    van Straubenzee, W. R.

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Hulbert, Sir Norman

    Page, John (Harrow, West)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Panned, Norman (Kirkdale)

    Vosper, Rt- Hon. Dennis

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Partridge, E.

    Wade, Donald

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell

    James, David

    Peel, John

    Walder, David

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Peyton, John

    Webster, David

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

    Pilkington, Sir Richard

    Whitelaw, William

    Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith

    Pitman, Sir James

    Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

    Kaberry, Sir Donald

    Pitt, Dame Edith

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

    Pott, Percivall

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Wise, A. R.

    Kimball, Marcus

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Wolrlge-Gordon, Patrick

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Leavey, J. A.

    Proudfoot, Wilfred

    Woollam, John

    Lebum, Gilmour

    Pym, Francis

    Worsley, Marcus

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Lilley, F. J. P.

    Rees, Hugh

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Lindsay, Sir Martin

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Mr. Michael Hamilton and

    Linstead, Sir Hugh

    Renton, Rt. Hon. David

    Mr. McLaren.

    NOES

    Abse, Leo

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

    Ainsley, William

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

    Albu, Austen

    Callaghan, James

    Edelman, Maurice

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Carmichael, Neil

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Castle, Mrs, Barbara

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Awbery, Stan (Bristol Central)

    Chapman, Donald

    Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Collick, Percy

    Evans, Albert

    Barnett, Guy

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Fletcher, Eric

    Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    Beaney, Alan

    Crosland, Anthony

    Forman, J. C.

    Bence, Cyril

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Cullen, Mrs. Ailce

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Benson, Sir George

    Dalyell, Tam

    Ginsburg, David

    Blackburn, F.

    Darling, George

    Gouriay, Harry

    Blyton, William

    Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Greenwood, Anthony

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Grey, Charles

    Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W.(Leics, S. W.)

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Griffiths, David (Rother Vailey)

    Bowles, Frank

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Deer, George

    Harper, Joseph

    Bradley, Tom

    Delargy, Hugh

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W)

    Bray, Dr. Jeremy

    Dempsey, James

    Hart, Mrs. Judith

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D,

    Dodds, Norman

    Hayman, F. H.

    Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

    Driberg, Tom

    Healey, Denis

    474

    475

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

    Manuel, Archie

    Russell, Ronald

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    Mapp, Charles

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Hill, J. (Midlothian)

    Marsh, Richard

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Hilton, A. V. …

    Mason, Roy

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Holman, Percy

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Mellish, R. J.

    Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

    Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Small, William

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Millan, Bruce

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Hoy, James H.

    Milne, Edward

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Monslow, Walter

    Steele, Thomas

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Moody, A. S.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Hunter, A. E,

    Moyle, Arthur

    Stones, William

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Mulley, Frederick

    Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

    Hynd, John (Attercllffe)

    Neal, Harold

    Swain, Thomas

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Swingler, Stephen

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Noel-Baker,Rt.Hn.Philip(Derby,S.)

    Taverne, D.

    Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

    Oram, A. E.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Oswald, Thomas

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Owen, Will

    Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Padley, W. E.

    Thornton, Ernest

    Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Warbey, William

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Parker, John

    Weitzman, David

    Kelley, Richard

    Parkin, B. T.

    Whitlock, William

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Wigg, George

    King, Dr. Horace

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Peart, Frederick

    Willey, Frederick

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Plummer, Sir Leslle

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Popplewell, Ernest

    Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

    Lipton, Marcus

    Prentice, R. E.

    Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

    Loughlin, Charles

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E)

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Rankin, John

    Wilson, R, Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    McCann, John

    Redhead, E. C.

    Winterbottom, R. E.

    MacColl, James

    Reid, William

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Mclnnes, James

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Woof, Robert

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

    Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    McLeavy, Frank

    Rodgere, W. T. (Stockton)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    MacMillan, Maloclm (Western Isles)

    Ross, William

    Mr. Lawson and Mr. Cliffe.

    Mr. Eric Lubbock: I beg to move, in page 89, line 32, to leave out from the beginning to the end of line 41 and to insert:
    18. The boroughs of Bexley and Erith and the urban district of Crayford.
    19. The urban districts of Orpington and Chislehurst and Sidcup.
    20. The boroughs of Beckenham and Bromley and the urban district of Penge.
    The Chairman: With this Amendment it will also be possible to discuss those in page 89, line 32, column 2, after "Erith", insert "and".
    In line 33, column 2, leave out from "Crayford" to end of line 36.
    In line 38, column 2, leave out "so much of".
    In line 40, column 2, leave out from "Sidcup" to end of line 41 and in page 91, line 27, leave out paragraph 6.
    Mr. Lubbock: As I listened to the Parliamentary Secretary replying to the debate on the last group of Amendments I must confess that my hopes rose, because the objections which he used against that group could certainly not be applied to my Amendment. He said that those
    476
    Amendments would have ramifications in other parts of the Greater London area which were not catered for in the Amendments. This Amendment is concerned purely with metropolitan Kent and has no effect on other groupings in other parts of Greater London.
    The Parliamentary Secretary said that there should not be any boundary changes which would cause any unnecessary transitional difficulties. I do not want to refer to those in any detail, because I am sure that the right hon. Lady the Member for Chislehurst {Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith) will expand that theme.
    Thirdly, he said that there were differing points of view in those areas which could not be easily reconciled. He was not quite certain whether the Amendments represented the majority view. In the area with which we are now dealing. I think, so far as one can ever be certain of the views of the majority of public opinion, that they favour the groupings which I have suggested.
    What argument can the Minister use against my proposals? I expect that they will mostly be on the ground of size, and I want to tackle this question

    477
    and to try to anticipate some of the things which he will say. I shall do that under two headings—population and rateable value.
    Orpington, together with Chislehurst and Sidcup, has a population of 169,510, according to the Registrar-General's estimate of 30th June, 1962. Thus, this borough would already be larger than two of the others proposed in the Bill, No. 21, which has a population of 169,019 and No. 23, which has a population of 165,777.
    The Registrar-General's figures for 1952 and 1962 show that the population of Orpington grew from 63,670 to 80,950, a rise of 17,280 over the 10-year period. It is expected that a further substantial rise will take place over the next decade, bringing the population of Orpington alone to more than 100,000. The population of Chislehurst and Sidcup also grew over that period, although by a smaller amount, 3,430, but I contend that the time can be foreseen when the population of the combined borough would exceed the 200,000 minimum which is laid down by the Government, but to which they do not rigidly adhere.
    The rateable value of Orpington, Chislehurst and Sidcup would be the smallest of any in the Greater London area, at £7,735,000, but there are substantial developments under way in my constituency, both residential and commercial. It is estimated that by 1972 our own rateable value would have risen by approximately £1,600,000. Therefore, assuming that there was no increase in the rateable value of Chislehurst and Sidcup over that period, the combined total by 1972 would be approximately £9·3 million, which is by no means the smallest, for Borough No. 21 now has a rateable value of £8,890,000.
    Therefore, neither in population nor in rateable value would this borough ultimately be the smallest in the Greater London area. We should take the opportunity of the Bill to plan not only far the next ten years, but perhaps for as much as the next eighty. So far as we can foresee the developments to take place in that period, or at least at the beginning of that period, we ought to be able to shape the administrative units accordingly and not take such a limited view as to determine them purely on the facts which obtain today.
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    5.0 p.m.
    Borough No. 19 is the largest of the lot by quite a long way. I recall "Nye" Bevan's remark that one of the essences of local government was that people should be able to walk to the town hall. I cannot see, unless they are great athletes, that they will be able to walk to the town hall in Borough No. 19. Indeed, even if we take the grouping which I have proposed, the area of Orpington, Chislehurst and Sidcup together would still be one of the largest. Therefore, not on rateable value, nor on population, nor on area, is there any argument against these proposals.
    In favour of them I think the most substantial evidence that I can adduce is that of local opinion in my area. Certainly, the inhabitants of the villages in my constituency are unhappy about being included in Greater London at all. The Minister was adamant in refusing to consider their case until the Bill became law although he said that he would be prepared to look at it again if the matter was raised by the local authorities after that date.
    The villagers were somewhat dismayed when they looked at the complicated provisions which existed in the Bill for the alteration of boundaries. After studying these, they have taken the view that they are much more likely to receive a hearing if they are part of the smaller unit which is proposed in this Amendment. I believe that the Minister has received a letter from at least one village committee. I have received a copy of it urging me to support the Amendment with all the force at my command.
    Speaking of the size of the Borough of Orpington, Chislehurst and Sidcup the chairman of Downe Village Committee said:
    "This would surely create a Borough of manageable size and geographical tidiness on the periphery of the new London area, under a local authority which would understand the problems of this area, and with which we should feel we had similar affinities, similar ties and similar interests.
    It is strongly felt that any attempt to force us into Borough 19 without being given an opportunity to opt out would be in the nature of a shotgun wedding with regrettable consequences in the future."
    Similarly, the chairman of the Cudham Residents' Association says that they were
    "all agreed that there were grave disadvantages in Orpington being wedded to the large urban

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    conglomeration of Bromley, Beckenham and Penge."
    I think that the Minister knows the views of Knockholt.
    I believe that the same is true of the people in the centre of Orpington, where there is a strong feeling that they do not want to be Bromley's poor relation. We want to develop ourselves. We want our own shopping facilities, our own sporting and cultural amenities, and we think we are more likely to get these if we are not forced into an amalgamation with Bromley where we are told these facilities exist, and there is no reason for us to ask for additional ones.
    Also, we in Orpington have for many years co-operated with Chislehurst and Sidcup in education. This arrangement is extremely satisfactory, and people are nervous about the possibility of going in with Bromley which, as regards education, is a most reactionary authority. Some time ago it refused to allow the secondary schools to put pupils in for the Royal Society of Arts examinations, and even for the General Certificate of Education. In my constituency we have, fortunately, had quite a lot of successes in these examinations.
    Finally, the grouping proposed in the Amendment is that suggested by the Royal Commission, and it follows the principle of not splitting authorities wherever that can be avoided, and also of having smaller authorities on the periphery, than in the centre of London. The Royal Commission said, in paragraphs 929–30:
    "… we think it desirable to amalgamate two or mare existing units as a whole rather than, except where unavoidable or to a minor degree, to divide and regroup.
    We are also of opinion that there is generally a strong case for creating Boroughs of greater population in the inner areas, where the population is closer together, than on the periphery, where an equivalent population would mean that many of the citizens would be remote from their centre of government. There are also a few areas"—
    and our own is one of these—
    "where, owing to an exceptional concentration of open spaces, to adhere strictly to the lower limit would produce too scattered an authority."
    The Minister has been very concerned to maintain existing boundaries wherever possible in the inner areas, and I hope that he will follow the same principle
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    when he considers this Amendment. The Government have departed from these two principles in the grouping they have proposed in creating this colossal Borough No. 19, which is the largest of all in the area, and eighth largest in terms of population. This is so obviously wrong, that I am sure the Minister will take this last opportunity of thinking again.
    Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith: I hope that I shall be in order in speaking to the Amendments in my name which are being considered with this Amendment.
    I cannot support the line taken by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), because, although these Amendments are being discussed together, they seek to bring about two entirely different results. It is the wish of my urban district council that we should be united with Borough No. 19 rather than be split down the middle and half go into Borough No. 18 and half into Borough No. 19.
    My council has always fair-mindedly accepted the need for reorganisation of London Government, and it approached the proposals for larger and more viable borough authorities with an open mind. It has not approached this matter in any spirit of prejudice against the larger authorities, but solely with the idea of creating the best possible arrangement in a single large borough which would include the whole, and not merely half, of my urban district council.
    I believe that there has been some misunderstanding about the Town Clerks' Report. First, protests were made when the original proposals that we should combine with Bexley as Borough No. 18 were evolved. Protests were made in writing and in evidence at this conference by Erith and Crayford who thought that this was an impracticable suggestion. They had long been seeking a marriage, which wish was reciprocated, with Bexley, and they had long wanted a larger borough jointly with Bexley. They did not feel that there was compatibility or real affinity between them and the area way down south of the A.2, the area of Chislehurst and Sidcup Urban District Council.
    I do not think that anyone can say that this is a party political matter. On the one hand there is a substantial Labour

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    majority council in Erith and Crayford, and on the other there is a smaller Conservative majority council in my constituency. Both authorities think that it is impracticable to link Chislehurst and Sidcup Urban District Council with an area where the Thames-side heavier industries, the transport, the communications and the social life are very much divided from the south side by the A.2 road.
    The town clerks' report made it clear that there were the most serious misgivings about my district being linked with the northern half. It was also recognised that there was no affinity whatsoever between the area south of the A.20 which consists of Chislehurst, Mottingham and St. Paul's Cray, and the area so far north as Bexley, Erith and Crayford.
    I want to assure my right hon. Friend that when my council went to that meeting it was convinced, rightly or wrongly, that the only point at issue was whether it went wholly north into Bexley Group 18 or wholly south into Bromley Group l9. It never occurred to the council that it, as a very strong local authority, was likely to be sliced in half. The issue had never been discussed in the council; it had only discussed whether it was going wholly north or wholly south. It was therefore a tremendous shock when the decision was made to slice my constituency in half. I am authorised on behalf of my council to say that it does not accept in any way the paraphrase in paragraph 112 of the town clerks' report that its representative at that conference said that the council preferred the link with Bexley. The council feels very strongly about it, and I regret that it has not, as I thought it had, made its views known to my right hon. Friend.
    Nevertheless, the fact remains that the memorandum presented by my council was first and foremost against any divide. Secondly, my council was in favour of going into the Bromley Group. It said, however, that if the Minister stuck to the rigid limit of 200,000 it would look as if that "pointed" to its going into Bexley. But that is not the wish of my council, nor, indeed, the wish of Erith and Cray-ford. We have been sliced up like a piece of garnish and tossed half on to the Bromley plate and half on to the Bexley dish, and much as we like our
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    neighbours we want to go as a unit into Group 19.
    Mr. Norman Dodds: The right hon. Lady is stressing her own Amendments. If they are not acceptable, would the hon. Lady and her friends be ready to accept the proposals of Orpington inasmuch as Chislehurst and Sidcup would be left as one unit?
    Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith: The Amendments in my name have been passed by an overwhelming majority of the Labour, Independent and Conservative members of my council. There were four dissentients, but, as I say, the overwhelming majority of the Labour, Independent and Conservative members of the council passed this resolution. They want to go into Bromley Group 19 and they asked me to put down the Amendments. I am therefore representing the majority view of all parties in my constituency.
    Mr. Lubbock: But was not some opinion expressed by the right hon. Lady's council as to the merits of the proposal put forward by Orpington and that contained in the Bill?
    Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith: Certainly. I have throughout the last five months been in constant touch with my council and it has made it crystal clear that its first and overwhelming choice is to go into Bromley.
    Sir K. Joseph: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that her council's first and overwhelming choice is to remain undivided and that, secondly, she is saying that its second choice is to go with Bromley? That is what she is saying, is it not?
    Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith: I would not go as far as my right hon. Friend. His point is that it was very apparent not only from the town clerks' report but also from their decision that they considered that for at least half the constituency it would be crazy to go into the northern area. I think everyone agrees that it would be completely impracticable in any circumstances to put the south side into Bexley, Erith and Crayford. That has been acknowledged by the town clerks.
    We say that we think it is wrong to cut the area in half, and that the

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    whole should be in area 19, and that is agreed by our neighbours Crayford and Bexley, both of whom have written to my right hon. Friend. The council feels that the enlarged group 19 would be a viable unit and we would rather go into the southern group. I well recognise my right hon. Friend's difficulties, but it is recorded in the town clerks' report and there is already going through town planning in the London County Council and Kent County Council plans for a housing site of 25,000 coming into Belvedere Marshes. If the families are coming from London like those I see coming to my L.C.C. estate in Chislehurst, then that population will very rapidly, in five or ten years' time, produce more than the 25,000 required. With that 25,000 which would be starting to come within a couple of years, Bexley and Erith on their own would make up the 200,000 which the right hon. Gentleman regards as the minimum need.
    The basis on which my right hon. Friend instructed the town clerks to consider representations was, I believe, the past and present associations of existing local government areas; lines of communication; patterns of development and local areas of influence of service centres. On the first point, the case is wholly in favour of joining Group 19 from which eleven-twelfths of it was carved out in the first place from the old Bromley Urban District. Indeed, even today, the green surrounding my urban district council in Sidcup is still administered by the Chislehurst Common Conservators. The pattern is continued by the Kent County Council.
    5.15 p.m.
    If my right hon. Friend is concerned with the administrative side, this functions under the Kent County Council already. The town planning authority is Bexley, Bromley, Chislehurst and Orpington. It is therefore exactly as my right hon. Friend would want it in Group 19. This is a dormitory area with thousands of people commuting to London every day. We have our concentration of light industry in the Cray Valley, which draws its labour almost entirely from Orpington, Chislehurst and the Bromley areas. As regards our fire and ambulance services, again the same authorities are already organised into a county division.
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    The magistrates' courts are again in the same area. The health and child care are again an identical area, what are called Area 7 sub-committees of the Health Service. They are the very administrative areas now in existence which I am asking my right hon. Friend to accept by allowing us to go into Group 19.
    These links have been established by expert analysis by the Kent County Council and other authorities and in every single instance they have regarded the A.2 and not the A.20 as the natural divide between areas of differing interests and the one most likely to give prompt, efficient and the most easily available service. We have had long experience of these services and we think it is an advantage that they should continue in the sphere in which they have been operating, and this strongly supports the case which I am putting on behalf of my council.
    I must refer to the chaotic situation which will arise in relation to education if the division of the urban district is proceeded with. We are at present linked with Orpington as an education authority, but if the division is carried through the boys' grammar school will be on the northern side and claimed by Bexley. It is an excellent grammar school, with the highest record of university places in the county, or in the south-east of England. The girls' grammar school will be on the south side. At the moment parents send their children across the A.20, whether they want the boys' or girls' school, but if the division takes place we shall have the girls provided for on the south side and the boys on the north side.
    Technical education is on the south side, for both boys and girls. There is nothing on the north side. Those on the north will have to go into the area which is being grouped with Bexley. Adult education is on the north side; there is none on the south side. With the breakup in the urban district the educational situation will be absolutely chaotic.
    The local authority would try to keep exchanges running and would try to carry things over and be fair and reasonable for the first few years and no child would lose its present school position, but in two or three years' time, if this new borough is set up, we shall have the Bexley or Erith residents asking why

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    Chislehurst Common children are occupying places in their schools and they will try to claim the grammar school places for their own children. Somehow or other tremendous efforts will have to be made if the question of education is to be dealt with properly.
    Therefore, our link-up with Bromley in Group 19 is a natural, on grounds of community interest, history and current administrative work and efficiency. I appreciate my right hon. Friend's difficulty. The whole thing boils down to a question of numbers. That is my right hon. Friend's strong point. But those numbers represent human beings. Bexley, Erith and Crayford are 166,000 strong at the moment, with a 25,000 estate coming in. It will not be long before they reach my right hon. Friend's figure of 200,000. Even at 166,000 they will form a more populous area than Epsom and Ewell, to which my right hon. Friend has agreed, and with the new estate the area will be bigger than the Barking group.
    Mr. Ede: What has the Minister agreed with regard to Epsom and Ewell? I have not heard anything from him.
    Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith: I am talking of numbers. Epsom and Ewell would form an area with a population of about 164,000. I am not contesting the right hon. Gentleman's views on the subject; I am merely saying that on the Minister's present plan the population numbers are no greater than those which would be viable for Bexley, Erith and Crayford. With the new estate in Group 18 it would be bigger than the Beddington and Wallington Group, or the Barnes and Richmond group. The larger Bromley would still be smaller than Lambeth, Group 9, but comparable with Coulsdon and Purley, and Barnet.
    Mr. Lubbock: The hon. Lady says that it will be less than the Lambeth Group which is 341,000, but since the census the figures will have increased, which will bring us up to a figure of about 341,000.
    Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith: I am not going to quibble over the odd 1,000. There is no speaker who has not said that the population of his area has risen considerably since the census was taken.
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    I am sure that my right hon. Friend will agree that this division of my local authority has put a tremendous burden upon the staff of my council. It has involved a great deal of additional work, because the staff has had to divide itself between two groups during the interim period. The burden on the senior officers of the authority has been tremendous. They are trying to cut themselves in half and serve in Group 18 one day and Group 19 the next. It is a measure of the efficiency of the staff that it has coped so admirably with the situation and has somehow managed not to miss any meetings that it should have attended, or fail in any of its duties and functions. It has had to try to carry on by way of ad hoc committees in two different areas.
    I can assure my right hon. Friend that the strength of feeling against this proposed division is intense. It is shared by members of all parties, and by people who belong to none. We sincerely believe that my right hon. Friend will be dividing one of the strongest, thriving and most viable areas, where the administration is already operating and ready-made for many of the main functions which the new borough will take over. I profoundly hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to reconsider the question of the divide.
    In fairness to the hon. Member for Orpington, I want to make it clear that although, over all, my council wants to go in with Bromley in Group 19, rather than be divided it would be prepared to go into the new group with Orpington, if my right hon. Friend should decide on that new group. My council does not think that this is a good solution, because it is too small a unit, and would not provide as strong and viable an area as would Area No. 19. I want my right hon. Friend to be in no doubt where the real hopes and wishes of members of all parties in my constituency lie.
    Mr. Dodds: As the right hon. Member for Chislehurst (Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith) said at the beginning of her speech, I am probably in a much more favourable position to comment upon the Amendments than most hon. Members who have spoken so far. For many years the authorities in my constituency have felt the need for

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    a much larger authority. For many years they have referred to an amalgamation of Bexley, Erith and Crayford.
    Everyone in my constituency who takes an interest in this matter is appalled at the thought that, in addition to Bexley, Erith and Crayford, there is a suggestion—no doubt made by people with tidy minds—that a part of the Chislehurst and Sidcup constituency should be added.
    How on earth the four town clerks who visited the area for a day or two could ever have come to the conclusion that it would be a good thing to break up the Chislehurst and Sidcup Urban District Council I do not know. They must have been drunk when they suggested it. There is no community of interest. It is separated from the other part of the proposed area by one of Britain's busiest main roads—the A.20. That is why I have been requested to support the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock).
    Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith: May I take it that the hon. Member is speaking for the Erith Labour Party? I have had regard to the feelings and the advice of members of the Chislehurst and Sid-cup Labour Party, who are supporting the resolution of my council.
    5.30 p.m.
    Mr. Dodds: I appreciate the right hon. Lady's enthusiasm. But perhaps she will wait a while. I said that the people in my constituency believe that the solution referred to in the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Orpington would suit us better. But we recognise that there is a far greater interest in this grouping and the suggestion of the hon. Member for Chislehurst on the part of the Chislehurst and Sidcup Council. But nevertheless they have made clear that they are prepared to come into any arrangement provided that Chislehurst and Sidcup are not divided.
    When replying to the debate on the previous group of Amendments, the Parliamentary Secretary argued that there was such disagreement among hon. Members who had moved Amendments that it was relatively easy for him not to argue the merits of the case but to say
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    that there would be objections whatever was done. Now the situation is entirely different for the Minister, because he cannot make much of the differences between the Amendments. There is a desire that Chislehurst and Sidcup should not be divided and that would suit my constituency. Such a division is a fantastic proposition. I hope that the Minister will consider the unique situation which would arise and which is condemned by all three political parties. I hope that he will pay attention to the representations which have been made. The right hon. Gentleman cannot fail to recognise that in recent weeks his party has found itself in a very difficult situation. In fact, over the last eleven years almost everything that his party has done has turned out to be wrong. At the present time so many mistakes have been made——
    The Temporary Chairman: The hon. Member is getting far from the Amendment.
    Mr. Dodds: I appreciate that. But I want the Minister to understand that mistakes can be made, and we think that if the Government go ahead with the proposals contained in this Bill they will be making a mistake which will be condemned by people of all political parties. Instead of trying to arrange for tidy sets of figures of 200,000 the Minister should recognise that there is the need to recognise human relations and that Chislehurst and Sidcup should not be divided.
    Bexley, Erith and Crayford have a population of almost 170,000 people. Although it is not definite, there have been rumours for some time that the L.C.C. propose to establish a town on the Erith Marshes. The proposed population it is said would be about 25,000 or 27,000. But no one can say definitely that this town will materialise. It is, however, highly probable. From all these various points of view, we ask the Minister to look at the situation again. My constituents consider that the best interests of the people will be served if there is an amalgamation of Bexley, Erith and Crayford and that Chislehurst and Sidcup should not be torn in two. Then the people in the area will appreciate that the Minister is concerned with their interests rather than with helping the bureaucrats to make tidy numbers.
    Mr. R. J. Mellish: The Minister, I think, will have been convinced by now that the Bill and particularly this Schedule has done about as much harm as it is possible to visualise. Every hon. Member who has spoken—and the debate has been on a non-party basis—has expressed great bitterness and resentment. Today there is a change in the attitude of hon. Members compared with the debate last week, when no one was prepared—certainly I was not prepared —to make concessions. Today hon. Members have been prepared to cooperate with the Minister by conceding certain principles, but they have argued that the divisions proposed were wrong.
    I do not understand why the Government are so rigid about this. The Parliamentary Secretary said in the debate on the previous Amendments—I hope the Minister will read what his hon. Friend said; as a rule the Parliamentary Secretary is a competent Minister—that certain sets of figures have been provided and the Government thought this the best way to juggle about with those figures. But the figures represent people and we cannot do that to people. As has been said by the right hon. Lady the Member for Chislehurst (Dame Particia Hornsby-Smith) and the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), these figures represent people and communities.
    I know Chislehurst very well. Many of the people who live there now orginally lived in the area which I have the honour to represent and they regard Chislehurst as something belonging to them. It is a thriving community with a great future. If the Minister is worried about figures, why should not he do what was suggested by the hon. Member for Orpington and cast his mind ahead to the situation which will obtain in the next five or ten years and visualise the Chislehurst or the Orpington of that time? There will then be enormous populations, and if we do what is now proposed it will mean that in the next fifteen or twenty years we shall have to examine this matter again. That cannot be good for local government. I do not think that it will be so terrible if these figures are not strictly adhered to.
    The hon. Member for Orpington made an important point about the size of an area. If local government is to mean anything at all, people must be able to
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    know about it. A glance at the map enables one to realise the importance of the point which was made by the hon. Member for Orpington. The other point which emerged from the discussion is that the proposals of the hon. Member for Orpington were originally in the Report of the Royal Commission.
    Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith: It was originally the proposal of the Royal Commission and my council was prepared to consider it. But it was turned down flat by the Orpington Council of that time.
    Mr. Lubbock: But the political complexion of the Orpington Council has changed since that time.
    Mr. Mellish: Well, there it is. Chislehurst and Orpington have solved that one for me in a splendid fashion, and in a way I did not expect.
    It is now said, rightly, that the original proposal in the Amendment of the hon. Member for Orpington was contained in the Report of the Royal Commission and that reveals the wisdom of it. It has received the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds), to whom hon. Members on this side of the Committee listen with respect in regard to matters of this kind.
    I hope that the Minister will deal with the point regarding education which was made by the right hon. Lady the Member for Chislehurst. I have a certain "vested interest" in this matter because, in addition to the problems of State education, there will be problems arising regarding denominational schools if the area is split up in the way which is proposed. Some of the children will have to go to the North and some to the South, and such problems will have to be straightened out. I think that the views of the Minister on this point should be put on record before these problems are tackled, because although there may be all the good will in the world, if the child of someone who lives in Bexley wins a grammar school place and the parents find that all the grammar school places have been taken by Chislehurst children they will be angry about it. This is something which matters to people.
    I should be out of order if I refer now to an Amendment which I moved last week. But on that occasion the Minister said that people were not all that

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    interested and that we were making too much of the idea that people were really concerned about these things. I do not know where the Minister gets that idea. What are people supposed to do, other than to write to their Member of Parliament, or make representation through the elected authorities, or present petitions? Are we supposed to lead masses of people up Whitehall to the office of the right hon. Gentleman? Does he need more convincing that these arguments are advanced sincerely and that he cannot turn down this matter by saying that there is a set of figures which must be adhered to, and that the town clerks did a good job? Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford, I do not think that the town clerks were "drunk". I do not think that when they came to their conclusions they were inebriated in any way. I think they were very sober. Their terms of reference were to show how this could be done. They did this because it was the nearest thing to the figures which were required. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will give serious consideration to these Amendments. It is difficult to imagine that under the guillotine procedure we shall reach the Amendment in the name of the right hon. Lady, but we certainly support the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Orpington.
    Sir K. Joseph: No Minister in my view would have any doubt about the invidious nature of the jurisdiction he exercises in advising the Committee on these very sensitive matters. I have comforted myself by reading through some of the local government reorganisation debates of the past and noting the passions that were aroused and then contemplating the peaceful and efficient areas which it was then predicted would never possibly work. Still, that is no comfort to the Committee today.
    In this short but pungent debate, the greatest interest has been shown, and I accept that there is apparently a unanimity of view from those who have spoken against the proposal in the Government Bill. I note that there has been interest also from some who have not spoken in the debate. My right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, the Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath), has been listen-
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    ing until he had to go away for other duties.
    We are here considering two separate proposals for dealing with the same part of metropolitan Kent. The hon. Member far Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) wants to make three boroughs instead of two out of the area covered by the part of the Schedule we are now discussing. He proposes to do that by amalgamating Orpington with Chislehurst and Sidcup, as was proposed, as has been said, in the Royal Commission's Report. I must make the point that at that time the Royal Commission had in mind—this was the only part of the proposals the Government have not adopted—a smaller size of borough and were suggesting that there should be three groups of local government in this area.
    It is a fact that if the Royal Commission's recommendation—which was made tentatively, it said, because it had not been into great detail on the subject—had been accepted by the Government, or if the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Orpington were accepted, the result would be three units each with an average size of about 170,000 population.
    Later I shall talk about the relevance of these figures, but for the moment I just note them. Not only would these authorities be relatively small in size considering the functions they would be called upon to perform, but this would also violate another principle which we think important, namely, that wherever possible, all things being equal, each borough should have a strong focus to its life. If we have three local authority areas in this part of metropolitan Kent we find that there are the two centres of Bromley and Bexley and there is not at the moment—I agree that there might be same time in the future—an equally large and vigorous focus of life in the area covered by Orpington and Chislehurst and Sidcup.
    The hon. Member for Orpington made a very great point in emphasising the size of the borough—the physical size, not the population size—which will be created by the proposal in the Bill. But he knows as well as I do that Clause 6 is written in in order that at a later stage the boundary may be corrected where that is a sensible thing to do. I do not accept that the boundary as now

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    drawn is necessarily permanently the right one. As he and the Committee will well understand, I cannot possibly bind myself or my successors on particular recommendations which may be made under Clause 6.
    5.45 p.m.
    It may be better if now I deal briefly with the educational point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith) and the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish). This is, of course, of extreme importance. We shall be starting on Part IV of the Bill, which deals with education, in Committee upstairs next Tuesday. I remind the Committee that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education gave a number of assurances on Second Reading that the change of borough boundaries would not in any way alter the right of persons to send their children to any particular school, although of course the qualifications and entry conditions of any particular school will remain unaltered by what we are doing for government in Greater London.
    I now come to the main part of this argument. There is no real centre of life equivalent to that offered by Bromley and Bexley in a borough that would be made up by a marriage of Chislehurst and Sidcup and Orpington. That is one disadvantage, and the second is one of size, to which I shall return. I therefore suggest that the particular solution put forward by the hon. Member for Orpington is not one that the Committee should accept. There are certain things we can, however, take for granted here I think. It is inevitable, I should have thought, that Erith and Crayford must join with Bexley. That is the wish of all three.
    I say in passing, without in any way wishing to be either mischievous or malicious, that very understandably the councils of Erith and Crayford think that the smaller they can keep their groupings the more happy they will remain. That, I think, is in their minds when they urge strongly that no part of Chislehurst and Sidcup should join the Bexley group. Equally I think it is certainly correct that Beckenham and Penge should go with Bromley. Equally, because Orpington is accessible to Bromley, it falls naturally into the same group and, as to physical size, Clause 6 remains available for later use.
    494
    Between those two groupings, one centred on Bexley and one on Bromley, falls the district of Chislehurst and Sidcup. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst is a most vigorous advocate of any cause in which she believes. In this case it is my misfortune that she believes so strongly in the cause of her council. She has put the argument strongly. She has never ceased to bombard me with her views, and it is not for lack of thinking about this problem that I am now reluctantly forced to what I regard as the logic of the facts and to ask her if she can see fit to withdraw the Amendment.
    I hope she will agree with me when I state the case like this. The council of Chislehurst and Sidcup has been, and I think still is, mainly concerned above all to keep its district undivided. That is an entirely honourable and legitimate concern and one which we must admire, but it shows the Committee how extremely rapidly such strong loyalties can grow. Here is a district created by the amalgamation of Chislehurst and Sidcup as recently as 1934. May the creations we are making by this Bill build up as rapidly loyalties as strong as these.
    The council from the beginning wanted to stay on its own. Of that it left us in no doubt, but it recognised that when the Government adopted the position that boroughs had to have a minimum population of the order of at least 200,000 that probably would not he possible. In due course my right hon. Friend who was then the Minister sent round a circular attached to map A asking for the reactions of the different councils on the proposals in map A. The Committee will remember that in map A Erith, Crayford and Bexley were joined with the whole of Chislehurst and Sidcup. In other words, the whole of my right hon. Friend's constituency was to be put into the group based on Bexley.
    I have in front of me a letter of 27th March, 1962, which says categorically that the members agree in principle with the grouping suggested for this area and hold strongly to the view that the urban district area ought to be preserved as an entity in forming part of the new London borough. They stressed their desire not to be split. It is fair to add that they went on to say that there was a body of opinion in the urban district—they did not say a body of opinion in the council—which would prefer amalgamation with the Bromley group.

    495
    I do not lay much stress on this, but it is a fact that that is the last letter on this subject which I have had from the urban district council. If they have changed their minds since then and would prefer to be with Bromley rather than with Bexley, provided that they are kept together, they have not written to me to that effect. After my right hon. Friend told me, earlier this afternoon, what she intended to say, I had a search made of the files at the Ministry. I may be wrong about this because I have had only an hour in which to look into it, but I can find no letter revoking their opinion as expressed in their letter of 27th March, 1962. I do not lay much stress on this because it is not my argument, I am afraid, that the opinion of the urban district council is the ultimate arbiter here. What I am trying to maintain is that the hard logic of the facts is such that the sensible thing to do is that which is justified only when there are very strong reasons—namely, to split a local authority area.
    I turn to the figures in order to put them in proper context. As the hon. Member for Orpington rightly said, we are building not for five years, not for ten years, and not even for the period when, if all goes well and the right decisions are made by me and by my successors, a great deal of building development has occurred; we are looking further ahead even than that and are trying to create borough groupings which will be viable, thriving areas of local loyalty for the next half-century. For that we have first to look at the focus, and here we have the focus of Bexley and, in the south, the focus of Bromley.
    Mr. Lubbock rose—
    Sir K. Joseph: I have very little time. If the hon. Member intervenes I hope that he will be brief.
    Mr. Lubbock: If the Minister is thinking in terms of 50 years ahead, does he not think that a focus might be built which is suitable to the needs of Chislehurst, Sidcup and Orpington? Is he aware that my council has passed a large-scale outline development plan for the whole of the High Street?
    Sir K. Joseph: It would be economic madness to construct new local authorities
    496
    on the basis that they will be made viable by a new focus which has not yet been built. It is possible that one may be built, but that will be for our grandchildren to recognise when they come to do in the future what we are doing now.
    We have taken a figure of a minimum of 200,000 not for bureaucratic reasons of tidiness but because we propose to endow these boroughs with very strong administrative powers, and it is essential that they should have the scope to employ experts, should have adequate catchment areas and resources and should be based on a natural focus to carry out those duties and to evoke the necessary loyalties. This is the very opposite of bureaucracy. We are taking this step because we are trying to make a potential community for the people of Greater London.
    Let us look for a moment at the map. If we are building for the next 50 years, is it sensible that the people in the south of Chislehurst and Sidcup should look to Bexley, such a long way away, as their central authority and focus? Equally, is it sensible to ask the people of Sidcup and the other end of Chislehurst, with the area sliced in two by the A.20, to look to Bromley for their centre when, as we all must generally accept, because of the logic of transport and of accessibility, they would look to Bexley as their main urban centre? This is the very opposite of bureaucracy. This is recognising the reality on the ground and building on it a viable community of the future.
    In this situation, and recognising the importance both of the focus and of the minimum size, the Town Clerks, in a state of sober intensity—as I am sure the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford would acknowledge—did their best with the problem and recognised, I think rightly, that the A.20, slashing, as it does, my right hon. Friend's constituency in two, offered a chance of a Solomon's judgment. I know that this is not popular. But I have seen letters from residents of Chislehurst, when it was suggested that the whole district might be merged with Bexley, which indicate that they at least must be satisfied now. I acknowledge the virtue of the council in taking up their strong position, but I distinguish them to some extent from the

    497
    citizens. The councillors, very properly and honourably, believe that they can do best for their constituents, their citizens, if they stay as a unit. Good luck to them. I believe that the citizens—perhaps it is a little presumptuous of me to presume to speak in this way—want to be merged, if merged they must be, with an area which they customarily use. That is why the people of Chisleburst were anxious to be left with Bromley.
    Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith: With respect to my right hon. Friend, the Lamorbey Residents Association, which is right on the north border, and the Mottingham Residents Association, on the south, are all against dividing the area.
    Sir K. Joseph: It is true that there are some letters from groups in Sidcup who urge that they should be merged, if merged they must be, with Bromley. Here I must invoke what I am afraid will not appeal to the Committee; if we are building for the future we should take into account considerations which public opinion, unless it reads very deeply in the subject, will not have in mind.
    I must therefore sum up by saying that to merge Chislehurst and Sidcup as a whole with Bromley, on the one hand, or with Bexley, on the other hand, would seriously upset the basic sizes which are essential not to bureaucratic
    but to human and future reasons and to the main principles of the Bill. I believe that is regretted by the district council and understandably it upsets the council, who feel it their duty to preserve their entity and their potential for influencing their future borough if they possibly can. But I am sure that when the dust has settled it will be seen that the natural affinity of the south of this district is to Bromley and that the natural affinity of the north of the district is to Bexley. There is a physical division between them which the town clerks have brought to our notice—namely, the A.20 road which slices the district in two.
    I very much hope that my right hon. Friend, whose thought and sincerity in this I readily recognise, will take a view of the future, as she has always done in the past, and will withdraw her Amendment. In addition, I hope that the Committee will recollect the disadvantages of accepting the Amendment of the hon. Member for Orpington, which would produce three boroughs relatively weak in resources and population, one of which would have no central focus, and will reject that Amendment if it is pressed.
    Question put, That the words proposed to be left out, to the second "the" in line 32, stand part of the Schedule:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 238, Noes 188.

    Division No. 58.]

    AYES

    [5.59 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Cooke, Robert

    Finlay, Graeme

    Aitken, W. T.

    Cooper, A. E.

    Fisher, Nigel

    Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Forrest, George

    Allason, James

    Cordle, John

    Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Corfield, F. V.

    Freeth, Denzil

    Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

    Costain, A. P.

    Gammans, Lady

    Barlow, Sir John

    Coulson, Michael

    George, J. C. Pollok)

    Batsford, Brian

    Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Berkeley, Humphry

    Crawley, Aldan

    Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk Central)

    Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

    Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

    Bidgood, John C.

    Cunningham, Knox

    Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

    Biffen, John

    Curran, Charles

    Goodhew, Victor

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Gower, Raymond

    Bishop, F. P.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    Bossom, Hon. Clive

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Green, Alan

    Bourne-Arton, A.

    Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F.

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Box, Donald

    Digby, Simon Wlngfield

    Gurden, Harold

    Braine, Bernard

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

    Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

    Brewis, John

    Doughty, Charles

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

    Drayson, G. B.

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

    du Cann, Edward

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Bullard, Denye

    Duncan, Sir James

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Burden, F. A.

    Eden, John

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

    Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Elliott, R. W. (Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.)

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

    Hastings, Stephen

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Hay, John

    Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Farr, John

    Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

    Cleaver, Leonard

    Fell, Anthony

    Hendry, Forbes

    Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Sharpies, Richard

    Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Marshall, Douglas

    Shaw, M.

    Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

    Matthews, Cordon (Merlden)

    Shepherd, William

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Mawby, Ray

    Skeet, T. H. H.

    Hobson, Sir John

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

    Hocking, Philip N.

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

    Holland, Philip

    Mills, Stratton

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Hollingworth, John

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Stanley, Hon. Richard

    Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Hopkins, Alan

    Moore, Sir Thomas (Ayr)

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Hornby, R. P.

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    Stodart, J. A.

    Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

    Morgan, William

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

    Morrison, John

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Nabarro, Gerald

    Tapsell, Peter

    Hulbert, Sir Norman

    Neave, Airey

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

    Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, N.)

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

    Teeling, Sir William

    James, David

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Temple, John M.

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

    Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)

    Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Thomas, Peter (Conway)

    Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton)

    Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith

    Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

    Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    Kaberry, Sir Donald

    Partridge, E.

    Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

    Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

    Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

    Turner, Colin

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Peel, John

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Percival, Ian

    Tweedsmulr, Lady

    Kimball, Marcus

    Peyton, John

    van straubenzee, W. R.

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Leavey, J. A.

    Pilkington, Sir Richard

    Vaugnan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Leburn, Gilmour

    Pitman, Sir James

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Pitt, Dame Edith

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Walder, David

    Lilley, F. J. P.

    Pott, Percivall

    Webster, David

    Lindsay, Sir Martin

    Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Linstead, Sir Hugh

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Whitelaw, William

    Longbottom, Charles

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

    Longden, Gilbert

    Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Proudfoat, Wilfred

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    McAdden, Sir Stephen

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    MacArthur, Ian

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Wise, A. R.

    McLaren, Martin

    Renton, Rt. Hon. David

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Woollam, John

    Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute & N. Ayrs)

    Rippon, Rt. Hon. Geoffrey

    Worsley, Marcus

    McLean, Neil (Inverness)

    Robinson, fit. Hn. Sir R.(B'pool,S.)

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    McMaster, Stanley R.

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Maddan, Martin

    Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

    Mr. Rees and Mr. Pym.

    Maitland, Sir John

    Seymour, Leslie

    NOES

    Abse, Leo

    Crosland, Anthony

    Hart, Mrs. Judith

    Ainsley, William

    Croseman, R. H. S.

    Hayman, F. H.

    Albu, Austen

    Cullen, Mrs. Alice

    Healey, Denis

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Dalyell, Tam

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    Awbery, Stan (Bristol, Central)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Hill, J. (Midlothian)

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Hilton, A. V.

    Barnett, Guy

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Holman, Percy

    Beaney, Alan

    Deer, George

    Holt, Arthur

    Bence, Cyril

    Delargy, Hugh

    Houghton, Douglas

    Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Dempsey, James

    Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

    Benson, Sir George

    Driberg, Tom

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Blackburn, F.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

    Hoy, James H.

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics. S. W.)

    Edelman, Maurice

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Bowles, Frank

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Hunter, A. E.

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

    Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

    Bradley, Tom

    Evans, Albert

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Bray, Dr. Jeremy

    Fletcher, Eric

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Broughton, Dr. A, D. D.

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

    Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

    Forman, J. C.

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Ginsburg, David

    Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Callaghan, James

    Gourlay, Harry

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Carmichael, Neil

    Grey, Charles

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Castle, Mrs. Barbara

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Kelley, Richard

    Chapman, Donald

    Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Collick, Percy

    Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

    King, Dr. Horace

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Hannan, William

    Lawson, George

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Harper, Joseph

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    500

    501

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Owen, Will

    Steele, Thomas

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Padley, W. E.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Lipton, Marcus

    Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Stones, William

    Loughlin, Charles

    Parglter, G. A.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Parker, John

    Swain, Thomas

    McCann, John

    Parkin, B. T.

    Swingler, Stephen

    MacColl, James

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Taverne, D.

    Mclnnes, James

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Peart, Frederick

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

    McLeavy, Frank

    Popplewell, Ernest

    Thornton, Ernest

    MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

    Prentice, R. E.

    Tomney, Frank

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Wade, Donald

    Manuel, Archie

    Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Mapp, Charles

    Rankin, John

    Warbey, William

    Marsh, Richard

    Redhead, E. C.

    Weitzman, David

    Mason, Roy

    Reid, William

    Whitlock, William

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Wigg, George

    Mellish, R. J.

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Willey, Frederick

    Millan, Bruce

    Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Milne, Edward

    Ross, William

    Williams, Lt. (Abertillery)

    Mitchison, G. B.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

    Monslow, Walter

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Moody, A. S.

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Morris, John

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Winterbottom, R. E.

    Moyle, Arthur

    Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Mulley, Frederick

    Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

    Woof, Robert

    Neal, Harold

    Small, William

    Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Zilliacus, K.

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Oram, A. E.

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Oswald, Thomas

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Mr. Lubbock and Mr. Dodds.

    Mr. Charles Doughty: I beg to move, in page 89, line 42, column 2, to leave out from "Croydon" to end of line 43.
    The effect of the Amendment would be to take out of Borough 20 the area comprised in the urban district of Coulsdon and Purley. Before I state the full reasons why I ask the Committee to support the Amendment, perhaps I should explain exactly the portion of the country we are discussing. Coulsdon and Purley lie to the north part of Surrey. I hardly like to address you, Sir Herbert, upon these matters because, since you live there, you know them as well as I do. I am sure that, like nearly all the other inhabitants of the district, you would be anxious to speak in support of the Amendment and vote with me, if and when a Division is called, but, unfortunately, the rules of the Committee prevent you doing either of those things. The area is and always has been part of Surrey. It comprises, to a large extent, the green belt around London and I shall refer to that as one reason why the Amendment should be accepted.
    It is interesting to note the way in which the peripheral areas of Surrey have been dealt with in reports and in discussions on the Bill. The first point to remember is that the Royal Commission was given certain areas—who gave it the areas and who was respon-
    502
    sible for selecting them nobody knows—and was asked to report. The Royal Commission reported and included Coulsdon and Purley as part of the Greater London area, together with Caterham and Warlingham. But the affinities of Coulsdon and Purley are with Caterham and Warlingham, and not with Croydon.
    The next step—a unilateral one on the part of the then Minister—was to take Caterham and Warlingham out. That was right because Caterham and Warlingham should never have been in, any more than Coulsdon and Purley should have been in. The position in Surrey now is that Banstead, Caterham and Warlingham, Esher, Walton and Weybridge have been completely excluded from the Greater London area and are to remain in Surrey. The only areas left out, and which are to be part of the Greater London area, are Coulsdon and Purley and Surbiton.
    I think that, by a small majority, the people of Surbiton wish to come within the Greater London area. Thus the only area of Surrey which has expressed its opinion without hesitation to the effect that it does not wish to have anything to do with the Greater London area is Coulsdon and Purley—but the wishes of this area have been completely ignored. The Government's proposal is that they should be amalgamated with

    503
    Croydon. Let me say at the outset that I have nothing against Croydon. In fact, I have the pleasure of support from my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. F. Harris) in this matter. Nevertheless, in 1961 Croydon had a population of more than 250,000 while, at the same date, Coulsdon and Purley had a population of more than 75,000.
    It should be remembered that the Amendment differs from other Amendments on this topic because it does not represent a change-round of boundaries and particular areas. It represents a straightforward exclusion. If the Government's proposal is accepted and the Amendment is rejected a borough of 327,000 inhabitants, probably more, will be established; a number far in excess of the 200,000 as proposed by the Minister in respect of the size of the Greater London boroughs. Such a figure would be 50 per cent. larger than the average population considered right by the Minister and a borough of that size would be too large to be workable or convenient to the population.
    The two areas are extremely different. Croydon has three times the density of Coulsdon and Purley, the latter being almost entirely a dormitory area. The two districts are in no way connected, except that on the old Brighton Road that passes through Croydon—and the road goes on to Eastbourne, and so on—there might be said to be a connection for a few hundred yards of the length of the road on either side. I do not wish to exaggerate the differences involved. I am merely pointing out that for a few yards along this road there is a built-up area on either side of it. Nowhere else is there any form of built-up connection between the two areas.
    Apart from that small appendix, if I may call it such, the two districts are entirely separate. Yet, despite these differences, it is proposed that they should be made into one. If anything is crazy, this is surely crazy. I appreciate that I am speaking tonight merely as one person. Nevertheless, we are dealing with 75,000 people who, with only a few exceptions, have looked at the Government's proposal with horror because they consider that they are not part of London and that they belong to Surrey. I had the honour to present to Parliament a
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    Petition signed by 20,000 to 30,000 of them. That had nothing to do with politics, for it was not submitted by the council or any political party. It was submitted and signed by the ordinary inhabitants who wanted hon. Members to know that they did not want to be part of Croydon, that they are not part of Croydon and that they wish to remain in Surrey.
    6.15 p.m.
    Consider what would happen if the Government's proposal goes through and my Amendment is rejected. The population would be at least 327,000 in an area of about 37 square miles, extending from Norbury and Norwood in the north to Merstham in the south. Local government under these circumstances would cease to have any meaning at all. If on the Brighton line one still has three one gets in the train at Coulsdon, South or four miles to go—a journey taking several minutes by express train—to Croydon and the town hall. That is not local government but distant government, and that is exactly what the Minister is proposing. My suggestion would have no ancillary effects. In other words, if the Amendment is accepted no other area would be affected. It represents a simple removal of this area from Borough 20, leaving Borough 20, Croydon, with a population of over 250,000—probably nearer 300,000—more than big enough and viable enough to operate as the Minister requires. It would still be one of the biggest areas in the Greater London set-up and Coulsdon and Purley would remain in Surrey.
    When considering the history of this matter it must be realised that the word of the Government is involved. We had a two-day debate to take note of the Royal Commission's Report in February last year in which a discussion took place on the peripheral areas. The discussion occupied a great number of columns in the OFFICIAL REPORT and I should like to quote a few remarks made by the Leader of the House. He referred to the suggestion made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Epsom (Sir P. Rawlinson) and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) that the area of Surrey proposed for inclusion in the scheme was too big. The Leader of the House said:
    "The intention and, indeed, the sense is to include in London only the area enclosed by

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    the green belt. There is, of course, the difficulty, which my hon. Friend recognised—I have it in my own constituency in relation to these problems—that many of the boroughs and districts round the edge include, in varying proportions, parts of the continuous built-up area and parts of the green belt. This is true of my constituency …".
    I had in mind, of course, that part of Coulsdon and Purley on the Brighton Road; but the rest of it is almost entirely green belt and rural housing. In that debate I did something which I seldom do; I interrupted my right hon. Friend when he was replying to a two-day debate, and, when he had said that it was the intention to deal with areas which had shoulders in the green belt, I said:
    "What my right hon. Friend has just said will give tremendous satisfaction to tens of thousands of people who live in such areas. He has referred to areas which have shoulders in the green belt and feet in Greater London. Will he give an assurance that the line will not cut through any area, and that an urban district council area will not be divided in the middle?"
    My right hon. Friend replied:
    "It has been one of the main principles that, as far as possible, local authority areas should not be divided, although as the House knows from what I have said myself, I have been unlucky in this respect."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th February, 1962; Vol. 654. cc. 330 and 331.]
    It was upon the assurance that the Greater London area would be only that area within the limits of the green belt and that as far as possible the council area would not be divided, that I voted in favour of taking note of the Report. I was misled by that assurance, which was clear and unambiguous. My vote was obtained on an assurance that has not been kept, and I now call upon the Minister to honour the undertaking then given by the Leader of the House.
    I say that because if we look at the larger-scale map, we see that the green belt starts on the left and goes right through Coulsdon and Purley, except where the main Brighton and Eastbourne roads go through. If ever there was an area that was included in the green belt it is this, save for that portion to the north referred to by the Leader of the House when he talked about the shoulders being in the green belt and the feet somewhere else.
    As this is an area entirely within the green belt area, I call the Minister to carry out the undertaking then given
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    to the House. In so doing, he will be doing something that is right, because the present proposal is wrong. He will pay some respect—and I stress this as very important—to the views of those who live there.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West will, if he gets the opportunity, deal with the views of the Borough of Croydon, but it is known that the Croydon people have no wish to be included in Coulsdon and Purley. They told the Minister that they
    "… can be more effectively administered as an effective and convenient unit as it is now than if it is all grouped with other local authorities."
    If, by these proposals, Coulsdon and Purley were to be divorced from its natural affinity with Caterham and Warlingham it would be forced to amalgamate with a district that did not wish to amalgamate with it, and did not wish to have it. The new area would be far too big, both as to population and area. It would be amalgamated with an area which, except for the small part to which I have referred, is not visibly connected with it. I ask the Committee to support this Amendment and thus see that justice is done here, and that Coulsdon and Purley are excluded from this proposal.
    Mr. Frederic Harris: In supporting this Amendment I should like to express the Croydon point of view. I have so often given my own views about the Bill in general that the Minister can have no doubt about what they are. I believe that Croydon as it now is—let alone what it will be when joined with Coulsdon and Purley—should have been excluded from the Bill. When I heard my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty) moving his Amendment it occurred to me that he might be talking himself out of the chance of being a Croydon member in the years ahead though, perhaps understandably, he would rather remain for the moment the hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East.
    My views are certainly held by well over 90 per cent. of my own Croydon Borough Council, and from the large number of letters and personal approaches I have had I am convinced that they are also shared by the majority

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    of Croydonians. In fairness, I must add that they are not shared by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallet) or by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir R. Thompson).
    We in Croydon feel, and the Croydon authority has put it clearly to the Minister, that we have an efficient local authority administration as we now are, with a population of a quarter of a million. Whilst I know that my hon. and learned Friend will admit that the administrations of Croydon and of Coulsdon and Purley are on the very friendliest terms, we in Croydon maintain that the addition of Coulsdon and Purley is not necessary to improve our efficiency or make us better than we are.
    We cannot honestly see the need for this addition at all. No one who has studied the area, and knows it—and as my hon. and learned Friend has said, Sir Herbert, you yourself know it extremely well—can seriously contend that the people in Coulsdon and Purley imagine that they will now live in London. That is absolute nonsense. The proposal to add Coulsdon and Purley to our existing authority, giving it a population of a third of a million instead of a quarter of a million, surely cannot be intended to be local government as we have always understood it. It is more than a halfway house between local government and regional government.
    I can assure the Minister that even under his present plans, which I sincerely regret, Croydon would not suffer at all if Coulsdon and Purley were omitted. After all, as I understand it, his own planning is based on authorities with populations of about 200,000, so that it cannot be contended that we need our population so much increased in order to satisfy his requirements in that respect.
    I understand that neither the members of the original Royal Commission nor members of his own Ministry have visited this area to study it and to see the situation for themselves, and as the proper needs of some 75,000 people are affected I think that was the least that could have been done. If that is the fact, why has such a physical consideration of the
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    district and the needs of the public locally not been made?
    Administratively, can it really be contended that residents at Coulsdon and Purley will now want to trot all the way down to our Croydon Town Hall to have their problems dealt with? It is not fair. It is too much to ask of them—and let us remember that they are the residents, the ratepayers, the people who will go on paying more and more rates. Their views should be taken very much into account, and I strongly support the opinions expressed in our debates on this Bill that the strong feelings and even the financial considerations of the local population are being ridden over roughshod. I feel very strongly about it.
    6.30 p.m.
    I promised not to take up much time. I contend that no case has been made for the Bill, that no case has been made for Croydon to be included in it and, in supporting the Amendment, that absolutely no case has been made to include Croydon plus Coulsdon and Purley in it.
    As to what benefit might be brought to anybody, I merely remind the Committee that the Royal Commission recognised that for Croydon there would be some diminution of status and threw out the bouquet that this was not implying any criticism of the way that Croydon affairs were being run. Even the Royal Commission fully recognised that the proposals were not favourable, and certainly not beneficial, to the residents of Croydon. Now the Government are trying to bring in Croydon plus Coulsdon and Purley.
    I presume that in his reply my right hon. Friend the Minister, as he has done already this afternoon, will take the view that Clause 6 is what matters and that there could be a local inquiry and certain adjustments. He must, however, admit that they are intended to be only very minor adjustments. If my right hon. Friend advances that view in response to the Amendment, it simply is not on.
    This is no minor adjustment but is a major problem. We want Coulsdon and Purley left out. So strongly do we feel about the matter—and I am echoing the views of my own authority to the extent of 90 per cent. of the people—that I trust that if my hon. and learned Friend's

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    Amendment does not get the satisfaction which it deserves, he will press it to a Division, in which I will certainly support him.
    Mr. Ede: I support the Amendment. I have lived in the neighbourhood of these two districts all my life and for the past twenty years I have been a representative of the Surrey magistracy on a wealthy and important foundation in the County Borough of Croydon. In that capacity I am, as it were, a part of the ground landlord of the most prosperous part of the county borough.
    In the course of discharging my trust I have to visit Croydon at least twice a month, and I meet a large number of people who are residents of that area. Every time I go there I am asked, "What are you going to do about the proposed amalgamation with Coulsdon and Purley?". So far, of hundreds of people who have spoken to me on the matter, I have not found one resident of Croydon who is in favour of this proposal.
    I share the views expressed by the Minister on the last Amendment. I am not over-impressed by the resistance of local authorities to changes in either their area or their status. Having started in this racket in 1908, I have lived through a large number of these schemes and I know that the authority will always be against change either of area or of status.
    It does not always follow, however, that in these matters the councillors, efficient as they may be in other matters, are really expressing the views of their constituents, whose views are more likely to be obtained in the way in which I have found the opinion of a large number of citizens of Croydon.
    I have had long connections also with the Urban District of Coulsdon and Purley. If there is one thing that has terrified its inhabitants since they were created an urban district in about 1915, it has been the fear that they would be ultimately swallowed by Croydon. I recollect the great anger that was once expressed to me by a person to whom I wrote in Purley and after whose address I added "near Croydon". I was promptly told, "That is not my address. My address is Purley, Surrey." These are
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    the kind of things which reflect the feelings of the people affected.
    I am not concerned whether the Bill will make better the local government of the area brought under control by its Clauses. I am not so interested in good government, because I share the view of the late Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman that good government is no alternative to self-government. I oppose the Bill largely on the ground that it destroys self-government for the great area that it covers.
    We used to be asked a few years ago, "Is Labour fit to govern?" That question has been put to the a good many times at public meetings. My answer always has been "No", because no man is fit to govern another. Self-government, like self-discipline, is the proper way in which this thing should be arranged. Certainly, if any referendum or plebiscite could be taken of the area covered by the Bill, I believe, from my contact with people living all over the area that is covered, that it would be overwhelmingly rejected.
    I hope that the Minister, whose ruthless efficiency in dealing with the Bill has earned my greatest admiration, will realise that he reminded us on the last Amendment that it is not the authorities, but the people, who matter, and that there is no doubt that the people in the two areas in question are resolutely and determinedly opposed to the Bill.
    Sir John Vaughan-Morgan: I agree with every word that the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) has said, even down to the staunch "No" with which he answered the rhetorical question whether Labour was fit to govern. I agree also very much with my hon. and learned Friend the member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty). I cavilled at only one of his remarks, when he said that he had nothing against Croydon. I have a great deal against the County Borough of Croydon since it elects to dump its refuse, and has done so for the last six years, in a particularly attractive corner of my constituency, in the teeth of the feelings of the local inhabitants and of the local authority. Perhaps, therefore, any sympathy which I might have for Croydon has been mitigated in the course of the last few years.

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    But I support my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East as a neighbour and as one who knows the area very well, since it borders on my constituency. I base my case also on the admirable map which was circulated to all Members of the Standing Committee and of the House by my right hon. Friend the Minister. I can only judge that the circulation must not have included my right hon. Friend, because had he seen it—although I notice that he has, possibly, an even larger version but not necessarily as accurate—he must have seen that in the case of Coulsdon and Purley he is including into the Greater London area the largest chunk of green belt that there is. Looking at that map, one sees Farleigh, Sanderstead, Whyteleafe, Kenley, Coulsdon, Old Coulsdon and Hooley, all part of the green belt and all rural and in the nature of villages.
    I wish also to point out to my right hon. Friend the Minister the utter inconsistency of the ruling in this matter. My right hon. Friend has cited the case of Walton and Weybridge——
    Sir K. Joseph: I am sure that my right hon. Friend would wish to address his argument to a point of difference between us and not to where we agree. I have always assured the Committee and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty) that I genuinely regard Clause 6 as the way in which the inhabitants of the areas in the fingers of development reaching down into the green belt, and the green belt fingers lying between those areas of development, can seek to be removed from Greater London when the Bill is passed.
    Mr. Doughty: I suggest that a better method is to accept the Amendment, which would be shorter and quicker and would cause less trouble.
    Sir J. Vaughan-Morgan: That is not the sole gravamen of my difference with my right hon. Friend. He is inconsistent. If he has left it to Clause 6, why has he in the case of Epsom and Ewell divided the local authority? That is the trouble all through the Bill. He would have been consistent but for that one case. He would have been consistent the other way had he included
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    Epsom and Ewell and, say, excluded Coulsdon and Purley. He must defend himself on this charge of inconsistency.
    I am glad to hear that Clause 6 holds out some hope for the rural parts of Coulsdon and Purley. I hope that due note will be taken of that and that the necessary action will be taken by those concerned, but I agree with my bon. and learned Friend that it would be far tidier, far simpler to exclude the whole of this local authority. May I say that although throughout I supported the general principles of the Bill, and I hope that I am being a loyal supporter to that extent, I must go into the Lobby with my hon. and learned Friend against this proposal.
    Mr. Prentice: I must make a brief intervention on the grounds that I have lived all my life in the County Borough of Croydon and served for some years as a member of the borough council. I am at present a member of the magistrates' bench in Croydon and have a number of connections in the town. I agree with every word that has been said in support of the Amendment. I was twice an opponent of the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. F. Harris) in Parliamentary elections and, although I did not agree with him often then, I agree with him completely on what he has said this afternoon. My only regret is that the hon. Member for Croydon, South (Sir R. Thompson) is not here to support him.
    Certainly the majority of the people in the area do not want this change. Speaking as an ex-member of the Croydon Borough Council, I would say that Croydon, in my view, from the point of view of local government is quite big already. The practical problem which we faced as councillors and which still faces them is that this is a very big town. It ought to be a city. It has a quarter of a million people. It is the equivalent of a town the size of Coventry or Cardiff, but we do not often think of it in that way, because it is within the Greater London area. It is a very big town and as councillors serving on various committees we faced the problem of size. I was a member of the children's committee for some time and was concerned with the difficulty of getting round to visit the children's homes. As a member of the education committee for three years I found it a virtually

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    impossible task to know all the schools and other institutions as one should. To add Coulsdon and Purley and to create a borough far bigger than most of the boroughs created under this Bill is something very difficult to justify. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will have another look at this aspect of the problem.
    Captain Walter Elliot: I rise to give my support to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty). I have great sympathy with him because the district in my constituency which adjoins Coulsdon and Purley was in the same position at one time but it subsequently managed to get outside the Greater London area. I think that it is of interest to trace my experiences when I endeavoured to get the Banstead area taken out, fortunately successfully.
    First, I was confronted with the Royal Commission's Report a little of which was incorporated in the Government's White Paper which stated that the issue—I am not using the exact words—should be judged by the twin tests of administrative efficiency and heathful representative government. We often criticise the efficiency of our local government and also its health, but when it comes to disturbing it we find that in fact it works very well, that the apathy of which we sometimes complain is not at all real and that there is very real interest in local government. Those two tests were quite rapidly dropped by the Government.
    6.45 p.m.
    The next hurdle which I had to get over was whether an area being left out would upset the lines of communication in the borough as it remained and upset such things as shopping centres. Fortunately, in my case, I cleared that hurdle. Looking at Coulsdon and Purley I can say that the removal of that area would do nothing to upset the lines of communication with the Croydon County Borough or upset access to shopping centres by the local people.
    Having got over that hurdle in my area, I was next given the argument that districts would be brought in if they were in the continuous built-up area of London. There again I was clear. Looking at Coulsdon and Purley there is, of course, a small area on its boundary which is continuously built-up, but, working it out
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    roughly, it is only about one-twelfth, which does not seem to me an argument at all for bringing in this area entirely against the wishes of the local inhabitants. In any case, I do not quite know where this argument came from and I should be glad to hear something about that.
    There is one other factor which I should like to mention and about which a great deal is heard. That is the upheaval which this plan will cause, as it is generally admitted it will. It will not only cause a great upheaval in the Greater London area but outside, too. The County of Surrey has been greatly upset by this plan and I think that that is a point which should also be taken into consideration. I am convinced by my hon. and learned Friend's arguments and I intend to support him if he presses his Amendment to a Division.
    Sir Cyril Black: Hon. Members may wonder what is my particular interest as I do not represent in Parliament the district that we are now discussing and I do not live there, as do certain other hon. Members who have spoken. I can, however, claim to have a fairly close knowledge of the district over a considerable period and of the local council and the local residents and of their views on this matter, because I have been for about 20 years a member of the Surrey County Council which is the major authority so far as Coulsdon and Purley are concerned. I was for three years chairman of the county council, and during the period of 20 years I have had occasion to make most frequent visits to the area in connection with my county council duties, and particularly during the three years I was chairman of the county council it would probably be true to say that hardly a month passed in which I did not have occasion to visit the area.
    I want to add everything that I possibly can by way of support for what has already been said in their plea to the Minister by my hon. Friends to exclude this area from the provisions of the Bill. As far as I am aware no one other than the Minister desires the inclusion of Coulsdon and Purley in Croydon and the Greater London area.
    I will be brief, because I want to leave the Minister adequate time to reply, and in any case the arguments have been well deployed already in

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    favour of the exclusion of the district, but I am authorised to say that Surrey County Council is and always has been opposed to the inclusion of this district in the Greater London area; not, let me say, on the principle that what we have we hold regardless of any reason which there may be for change, but on the ground that this area always has been and is today an integral part of the administrative County of Surrey. From our contacts with the district we are persuaded beyond the possibility of misunderstanding that the overwhelming desire of the people in the district is to maintain their present position in the County of Surrey.
    I have no authority, of course, to speak for Croydon, but it has been made quite clear that Croydon, for reasons which, if I may say so, do Croydon credit, is not approaching this matter on the basis that, "We should like to extend our population and our area at any cost by including our neighbours whether they wish to be included or not." Croydon has very fairly and properly said that this is a case in which, in its judgment, the views of the people of Coulsdon and Purley ought to prevail. I would anticipate that if the majority in Coulsdon and Purley had wished to go into Croydon, Croydon would have shown a willingness to receive the district, but it holds the view that the overriding consideration in the circumstances of this case should be the judgment and the wishes of the inhabitants of Coulsdon and Purley, and about their wishes there can be no possible doubt whatever, in the light of public meetings which have been held, of the resolutions of the local council, and of the overwhelming Petition which my hon. Friend has presented to the House.
    What makes it so difficult for me to understand the Minister's apparent intransigence in this matter is the fact that there is no population necessity at all here. If it had been a case of bringing in the area in order to try to achieve a population factor adequate for the greater powers which the new boroughs are to carry my view would still have been that it ought not to prevail against the wishes of the inhabitants, but that would have been some reason from the Minister's point of view for being insistent on the inclusion of this area. But, as far as the population
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    factor is concerned, the inclusion of this area is not necessary to get an area of the right size. It makes an area which is the right size too large. The area itself, and the Croydon area, does not want the addition of Coulsdon and Purley for that very reason.
    I think I am correct in saying—and this is my last word—that as far as the peripheral authorities of Surrey are concerned what are understood to be the wishes of the local people in every case have been respected except in two cases. One is the case of Coulsdon and Purley which we are now debating. The other case, of course, is the north wards of Epsom and Ewell which we shall be debating a little later this evening.
    I beg of the Minister, who has made very few concessions in this matter, who has shown very little willingness, if I may say so with great respect and without offence, to have regard to the arguments which have been advanced, to consider that the arguments in this case are quite overwhelming.
    Reference has been made to the map. From examination of the map, whether from the standpoint of the area extending right into Surrey or whether from the standpoint of the green belt, one judgment is conclusive—in favour of the exclusion of this district. I hope, in view of the long discussions which have already taken place on this matter, in which so few concessions or so few hopes have been held out, that on this occasion some substantial concession will be made. Of course, the only satisfactory concession is the total exclusion of the district.
    Mr. M. Stewart: When we consider an area on the borders of Greater London, an area which, it is well known, is as to a large part of it green belt and open space, clearly the burden of proof is on the Minister to show that it ought to be in Greater London. What conceivable reasons could be advanced for it? It seems that in the case of any peripheral area these are the reasons which might be advanced. We shall see if they apply in this case.
    First, it might be said that the area is clearly by its geography and its communications and its past history properly tied with and part of Greater London. Nobody can contend that with regard to

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    this area for one moment, with the solitary exception of the fact that it is linked by the London to Brighton road. As has been rightly pointed out, if we use that argument we shall carry the Greater London area down to the South Coast.
    Next, it might be argued that it is proper to include the borderline area because it is necessary to make the adjacent administrative area the proper size. The hon. Member for Wimbledon (Sir C. Black) has, I think, disposed of that argument. Throughout the progress of this Bill, both in the House and in Committee, we have had many arguments on what is the right size for a local authority with certain powers, and although there are many opinions on that, there is one thing on which, I think, everyone would agree. No one could seriously say that there are things for which 250,000 is too small and 327,000 is the right size. That is an argument which will not stand up for one moment, even though the Minister may say, "I must have Croydon enlarged like this if it is to be a proper borough". The objection is all the more true when he can only make the enlargement of population by adding not a similar piece but a locality which would for long consist of a dissident and resentful minority, and by creating an area which is unnecessarily unwieldy for a Greater London borough.
    The third possible reason for the inclusion of a peripheral area might be this. The Minister might say, "I should like to give way here but there are so many analogous cases, and if I gave way here I should have to give way in others." Whatever may be said about other analogous cases, in this case it is Croydon which has given way and it is not the Government who will be giving way.
    The final argument which might be advanced for including a peripheral area would be that the inhabitants want it. There is not a single person that the Minister can pick out—I believe he has hunted all through the streets of this area—who wants this.
    This is a decision in which the Minister can have no support from geography, and if he stands on the argument of administrative size and consistency with other areas, that whole argument goes against him. In that position, unless he is going to give way now, he has to do something which will infuriate a
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    number of his hon. Friends and all the inhabitants of the districts concerned. If the Minister can really do that, then he must expect to have a considerable muster in the Lobby against him from both sides of the Committee.
    7.0 p.m.
    Sir K. Joseph: I face this Amendment and the one which follows with more trepidation than any other proposed Amendment to the Bill because, as the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) so rightly said, it is one thing to oppose a council's wishes but it is something quite different to oppose the wishes of the people. I recognise here, as I do in the case of the next Amendment, that there is considerable public feeling involved. I have a number of critics to whom I wish to reply, and a limited time in which to do it, but I suppose the timetable is to blame for that. Indeed, I am not blaming anybody but myself for that.
    The case here does not rest in any way upon establishing a borough grouping of the right size—not in the very least. Croydon is large enough to be a viable unit on its own. There can be no argument about that. The case rests upon the definition of where the continuous town ends. That is all there is to it. The Royal Commission went on the basis that the whole of the continuous built-up area should be administered by one metropolitan authority for certain strategic services. It would be ludicrous for the Government to go to this extent to try to reorganise metropolitan government for the next half century and boggle at including in it the whole of the metropolitan continuous built-up area.
    There has been some dogmatic assertion from both sides of the Committee about whether the bulk of Coulsdon and Purley is, in fact, or is not in the continuous built-up area. Let me say straight away that I recognise—I do not want to enter into the merits of what will come to my successor, no doubt, as Clause 6 applications—that the tentacles of development stretching down south between the areas which are green belt are not part of Greater London and are only brought into the Bill because, as the Government have said on many occasions, not least to the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), they have

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    not sought to define finally the exact boundary at the periphery of the Metropolis.
    Hon. Gentlemen, particularly hon. Friends of mine, are underestimating the importance of Clause 6. I wish to repeat categorically that applications made to take out the tentacles of development that stretch south would be very seriously considered when the Bill is passed and the authorities concerned are set up. Therefore, my argument is addressed to the centre, to what I term the body of the octopus—the development at Purley itself.
    I would point out that I am a Londoner. I am 45 years old and have lived in London all my life. I would also add that I have taken the trouble to refresh my memory recently by going through all the areas concerned in the Bill—but only to refresh my memory, because I know them well. Whether I look at the map or at the ground, or whether, more effectively still, I look at an air photograph, I find that the body of Purley is part of the continuous development of Greater London. North of it there is an enclosed open space—Croydon Airport and the land just to the East of it—in the same way as there are throughout London large numbers of open spaces which do not cause a complete breach in the development. They are islands of open space.
    What we are looking for in defining the periphery of Greater London is a break in the development. We shall be discussing that break in the development when we come to talk about the River Hogsmill on the next group of Amendments. But there can be no doubt that the break in the development here starts with the green belt to the south of the main development of Purley. Therefore, if my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty) says that he proposes to press under Clause 6 that this part of his constituency should be taken out of London, I wish him luck and say—I cannot, of course, commit my successors—that he can probably expect to make a very good case. The Committee will sympathise with me over this. I should like to say that he will probably succeed, but that would, almost certainly, encroach upon the jurisdiction of my successor.
    520
    As I have said, the argument is about the continuous built-up area. There can be no doubt that if anybody looks at the area on the map, on the ground or on an air photograph, Croydon Airport and the land to the east of it are not breaks in the development but islands of open space. And I would remind my hon. Friends that under a recent decision a large part of Croydon Airport will be made over for housing.
    I have no doubt about the rightness of what I have said so far. But now I come to the more difficult part of the argument; to what is far more delicate. What I am really trying to say is that, although the citizens of this area do not want to come into Greater London, they should do so because of the principle of the Bill—that the Bill should cover the whole of the continuous built-up area of the Metropolis. I find this an argument that I must make with some care because it is very important.
    First of all, I think that my hon. and learned Friend will agree with me that the system of democracy as worked in this country entitles the Government to do what they regard as their duty, subject to the approval of Parliament. He is not, therefore, I am sure, questioning that constitutional point. But he may say "There may be an obligation laid upon you to do what you regard as right, but you should pay some regard to what the citizens feel." I accept that. But if we are to have regard to what the citizens think about this, is it not right that we should expect the citizens, so to speak, to do their homework? After all, the Royal Commission took the best part of three years and wrote 400 pages to analyse what was involved in making the local government of Greater London more effective to deal with the problems and to improve the services for the citizens.
    I doubt whether many of my hon. and learned Friend's constituents have read that Report.
    Mr. Mellish: Oh.
    Sir K. Joseph: The hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) goes off the handle at that. But I am not criticising my hon. and learned Friend's constituents for that. I should have thought that only a limited fraction of the population of Greater London would have seen fit—I am not being in the least censorious;

    521
    how could I be?—to study the implications of the present system of local government in London and the implications of what is proposed. How could we expect them to?
    But we are called upon to guide the future local government of the Metropolis, and we have studied the Report. When my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. F. Harris) sees fit to question the Bill in whole, that is his right. I am sure he has studied it. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East is not questioning the Bill in whole. He is supporting the Bill in principle and saying that he wants his constituency excluded from it, which is his perfect right. If the judgment of the citizens is to be invoked on such a technical matter as this, I suggest that they would need to know the total picture and need to have described to them the implications, for finance, transport, traffic and planning, of a continuation of the current arrangements and the implications of the proposed changes.
    Let me put it as strongly as I can and meet my hon. and learned Friend's case at its very heart if I am able. I suggest that even the cosiest community of respectable, well-governed, well-administered, high voting, good living citizens cannot in this day of ours regard themselves as an island. They are part of a larger community. If they are going to expect the transport and the planning around them to make sense they have to recognise that they must form part of that larger community. If they are, literally, far away and separated—as is Potters Bar which has been excluded from Greater London—they could make a case and say "We are to some extent in control of our own destiny". Even there it would only be to some extent and only very partially. But here, where by all the visual evidence—on the ground and on the map—the bulk of Purley is continuously built-up from Greater London with only an island of open space to the north of it and not a break in development, they must recognise that their future depends on the sensible handling of the larger community of which, will they, nill they, they form a part.
    522
    If my hon. and learned Friend will permit me a moment not of levity but ordinary human speech, how is it that such people can be so appalled at acknowledging that they live in what is the greatest capital city in the world?
    Mr. Doughty: They do not.
    Sir K. Joseph: They do. On all the evidence, they are part, though at the periphery, of the continuous built-up area within the green belt. I am meeting my hon. and learned Friend on the point of the green belt area. I do not dispute that that area should not remain permanently in Greater London. I hope that all those constituents of his who live there will invoke Clause 6. But surely his constituents who live in the continuous built up area must recognise that the increasingly complex affairs of this vast community—traffic and transport, planning and housing—can only be unsnarled by a metropolitan authority in parallel with large borough units with the resources to work towards the same ends.
    If my hon. and learned Friend's constituents really feel that they can wash their hands of the problem of the housing of their neighbours and the planning of the whole of the Metropolis, then I remind them that that is a very shortsighted view. Perhaps for the moment the housing of their neighbours is a matter only for their consciences, but in the middle term I suggest that decent living for all the inhabitants of the Metropolis is very much in their own interests too.
    Mr. Doughty: Is my right hon. Friend suggesting that the green belt should be built on? It is the only building land we have left.
    Sir K. Joseph: Not for a moment do I suggest that. I was not making that point, and I hope that my words did not lend themselves to that interpretation. I was following up my idea that if my hon. and learned Friend's constituents regard themselves as an island they might say—I do not think they would—"Housing and such problems are not for us; we are all right."
    I turn now to what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West, whose incorrigible opposition to the main purpose of the Bill I must once again try to challenge. He has asked for the second time—I think

    523
    rhetorically—what is the purpose of the Bill, what is the purpose of violating the status of Croydon and presuming to add to it more citizens. We are giving to the local government of the boroughs and urban districts of London the powers Croydon has so effectively used for itself in the past. Is this an unworthy purpose?
    When he says that Croydon coupled with Coulsdon and Purley will be too large a unit of local government and will become what he calls regional government, then he is saying that really all the county boroughs which are now bigger than Croydon are too large, which is nonsense. In the county borough of Leeds there are 600,000 people, who are governed very well.
    Miss Alice Bacon: Hear, hear.
    Sir K. Joseph: We are all united about Leeds.
    Here, in discussing Croydon with Coulsdon and Purley, we are considering a unit half the size of Leeds. My hon. Friend has a point about the size of the new borough, but Clause 6 is the way to remedy that particular difficulty. I hope he will feel that I have tried to meet the main gist of his argument. I have not tried to dodge it.
    Between Purley and Greater London there is no break in continuous development. There is the open space of Croydon Airport on which there is shortly to be much housing. The break is south of the main Purley development and that area can be taken out under Clause 6. I hope that the Committee
    will recognise that what the Government are doing is logical, because we are trying to alter and improve the local government of Greater London as a whole, and that what we are doing in this particular case is to recognise that the main central area of Purley is part of the continuous built up area.
    Sir C. Black: Does my right bon. Friend seriously suggest that it as a sensible proposal that there should be a double upheaval? As I understand his argument, the whole of Coulsdon and Purley should be taken out of the jurisdiction of Surrey County Council and put into the Greater London area with a view to a large part of it going back again at some future date.
    Sir K. Joseph: My hon. Friend forces me to say this: I am not prepared to build on it for the future, but I did offer my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey. East to make a special exception in this case and try to redraw the boundary to exclude the green belt area. This is a task the Government want very much to avoid because the definition of the permanent boundary affects many parts of the periphery.
    It being a quarter past Seven o'clock, The CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Orders, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
    Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 210, Noes 180.

    Division No. 59.]

    AYES

    [7.15 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Altken, W. T.

    Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

    d'Avigdor-Coldsmid, Sir Henry

    Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

    Bullard, Denys

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

    Allason, James

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Drayson, G. B.

    Arbuthnot, John

    Channon, H. P. G.

    du Cann, Edward

    Ashton, Sir Hubert

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Duncan, Sir James

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Eden, John

    Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

    Cleaver, Leonard

    Elliott, R. W. (Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.)

    Barlow, Sir John

    Cole, Norman

    Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

    Batsford, Brian

    Cooke, Robert

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Berkeley, Humphry

    Cooper, A. E.

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Farr, John

    Bidgood, John C.

    Corfieid, F. V.

    Fell, Anthony

    Biffen, John

    Costain, A. P.

    Finlay, Graeme

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Coulson, Michael

    Fisher, Nigel

    Bishop, F. P.

    Craddock, Sir Berestord (Spelthorne)

    Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Bossom, Hon. Clive

    Crawley, Aidan

    Freeth, Denzil

    Bourne-Arton, A.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

    George, J. C. (Pollok)

    Box, Donald

    Cunningham, Knox

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Braine, Bernard

    Curran, Charles

    Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk Central)

    Brewis, John

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

    Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

    McAdden, Sir Stephen

    Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

    Goodhew, Victor

    MacArthur, Ian

    Robinson, Rt. Hn. Sir R. (B'pool, S.)

    Gower, Raymond

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Green, Alan

    Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute & N. Ayrs)

    Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

    Greaham Cooke, R,

    Macleod, Rt. Hn, Iain (Enfield, W.)

    St. Clair, M.

    Gurden, Harold

    McMaster, Stanley R.

    Seymour, Leslie

    Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

    Maddan, Martin

    Sharples, Richard

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Maitland, Sir John

    Shaw, M.

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Marshall, Douglas

    Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

    Hastings, Stephen

    Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Hay, John

    Mawby, Ray

    Stanley, Hon. Richard

    Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Hendry, Forbes

    Mills, Stratton

    Stodart, J. A.

    Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Hill, Mrs, Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    Tapsell, Peter

    Hobson, Sir John

    Morgan, William

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Hocking, Philip N.

    Morrison, John

    Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

    Holland, Philip

    Nabarro, Sir Gerald

    Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, N.)

    Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

    Neave, Airey

    Teeling, Sir William

    Hopkins, Alan

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Temple, John M.

    Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

    Thomas, Peter (Conway)

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

    Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

    Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton)

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

    Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    Hulbert, Sir Norman

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Touche, Rt. Hon. St Gordon

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Turner, Colin

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    James, David

    Partridge, E.

    Vane, W. M, F.

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley

    Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell

    Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

    Peel, John

    Walder, David

    Jones, Artftur (Northants, S.)

    Percival, Ian

    Webster, David

    Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Pilkington, Sir Richard

    Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Pitman, Sir James

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Kimball, Marcus

    Pitt, Dame Edith

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    Lambton, Viscount

    Pott, Percivall

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Wise, A. R.

    Leavey, J. A.

    Prior, J M. L.

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Leburn, Gilmour

    Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Pym, Francis

    Woollam, John

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Worsley, Marcus

    Lilley, F. J. P.

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Lindsay, Sir Martin

    Rees, Hugh

    Longbottom, Charles

    Renton, Rt. Hon. David

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Longden, Gilbert

    Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

    Mr. John Hill and Mr. McLaren.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Ridsdale, Julian

    NOES

    Abse, Leo

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Harper, Joseph

    Ainsley, William

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Hart, Mrs. Judith

    Albu, Austen

    Crosland, Anthony

    Hayman, F. H.

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Cullen, Mrs. Alice

    Healey, Denie

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Dalyell, Tam

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

    Awbery, Stan (Bristol, Central)

    Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Hilton, A. V.

    Barnett, Guy

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Holman, Percy

    Beaney, Alan

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Holt, Arthur

    Bence, Cyril

    Deer, George

    Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

    Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Delargy, Hugh

    Houghton, Douglas

    Benson, Sir George

    Dempsey, James

    Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

    Black, Sir Cyril

    Dodds, Norman

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Blackburn, F.

    Driberg, Tom

    Hoy, James H.

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Dugdale, Rt, Hon. John

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics, S. W.)

    Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

    Edelman, Maurice

    Hunter, A. E.

    Bowles, Frank

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

    Bradley, Tom

    Forman, J. C.

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Gammans, Lady

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

    Ginsburg, David

    Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Gourlay, Harry

    Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Greenwood, Anthony

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Callaghan, James

    Grey, Charles

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Carmichael, Neil

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Kelley, Richard

    Castle, Mrs. Barbara

    Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

    Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

    Chapman, Donald

    Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Cliffe, Michael

    Hamilton, William (West Fife)

    King, Dr. Horace

    Collick, Percy

    Hannan, William

    Lawson, George

    526

    527

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Oram, A. E.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Oswald, Thomas

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Padley, W. E.

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Linstead, Sir Hugh

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Steele, Thomas

    Lipton, Marcus

    Parker, John

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Loughlin, Charles

    Parkin, B. T.

    Stones, William

    Lubbock, Eric

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Swain, Thomas

    McCann, John

    Pentland, Norman

    Swingler, Stephen

    MacColl, James

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Mcinnes, James

    Popplewell, Ernest

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Prentice, R. E.

    Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

    Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Thornton, Ernest

    MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

    Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

    Tomney, Frank

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Rankin, John

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Manuel, Archie

    Redhead, E. C.

    Wade, Donald

    Mapp, Charles

    Rhodes, H.

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Mason, Roy

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Warbey, William

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Whitlock, William

    Mellish, R. J.

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Hodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

    Willey, Frederick

    Millan, Bruce

    Ross, William

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Milne, Edward

    Russell, Ronald

    Williams, Lt. (Abertillery)

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Mitchlson, G. R.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Monslow, Walter

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Winterbottom, R. E.

    Moody, A. S.

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Morris, John

    Sheffington, Arthur

    Woof, Robert

    Moyle, Arthur

    Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

    Neat, Harold

    Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Small, William

    Mr. Doughty and

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Mr. Frederic Harris.

    Mr. Ede: I beg to move, in page 90, line 10, column 2, to leave out from "Surbiton" to the end of line 13.
    The Deputy Chairman (Sir Robert Grimston): With this Amendment can also be taken the Amendment in page 91, line 31, leave out paragraph 7.
    Mr. Ede: At the commencement of his speech just now the Minister said that the two Amendments which he approached with trepidation were the one to which he was then about to reply and this. His fears about the last have been removed, and I have no doubt that the Chief Whip has this matter well in hand and the right hon. Gentleman can compose himself contentedly and allow the even flow of debate to go on.
    I have often wondered what it must have been like to be a prisoner awaiting trial at the assizes at Winchester, Dorchester or Taunton in 1685, well knowing that no matter what one said, if one dared to say anything, Judge Jeffreys would pronounce the inevitable sentence. We have now spent many hours discussing this Bill and I realise that no matter what is said the decision will be the same.
    Sir K. Joseph: The right hon. Gentleman is not being fair. His own hon. Friends in Standing Committee have been using very kindly adjectives about my behaviour and the Government's behaviour in Standing Committee.
    Mr. Dodds: What happens down here?
    Mr. Ede: I was trying my best to be kindly to the right hon. Gentleman on the last Amendment. I admire the ruthless efficiency with which he is carrying the Bill through, but it is necessary to have these cases stated, for when we come to correct the Bill's many injustices, whether Clause 6 is invoked or not, whoever succeeds the right hon. Gentleman as spokesman for the party opposite should not be able to say that this matter was allowed to go by default.
    I am not the Member for Epsom. The hon. and learned Member for Epsom (Sir P. Rawlinson), who is a very good friend of mine, is a member of the Government. Therefore, in having to speak for my fellow burgesses of the Borough of Epsom and Ewell, I realise that I have many difficulties to overcome. The burgesses of the Borough of Epsom and Ewell object very strongly to their borough being divided by the Bill in spite of all the pledges that such units would not be divided. The Royal Commission itself said:
    "As far as possible existing boroughs and county districts should be retained or amalgamated without change of boundaries."
    When the Leader of the House wound up the debate on the White Paper, in answer to a specific question, he said:
    "It has been one of the main principles that, as far as possible, local authority areas

    529
    should not be divided …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th February, 1962, Vol. 654, c. 331.]
    When the four town clerks were sent on their pilgrimage to consider the groupings of local authorities, their terms of reference were that they should make recommendations mainly for the amalgamation of existing local government areas. It would appear, therefore, that that is an object which the Government had in mind. In fact, it will be within the recollection of the House that when the Leader of the House wound up the debate he pointed out that he was in some difficulty over this matter because there was a proposal that the borough, part of which he represents in this House, was to be divided, and he expressed the hope that the situation would be resolved. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman's borough is not now to be divided, and when the Parliamentary Secretary was replying to a question on 10th December he said:
    "My right hon. Friend is quite determined that in Committee he will consider any case which is put forward on its merits."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th December, 1962; Vol. 669, c. 162.]
    7.30 p.m.
    I realise that what was said with regard to Coulsdon and Purley in the debate on the last Amendment, in connection with appeals under Clause 6, is a matter which must be taken into consideration, but I regard Clause 6 as in practice meaning that where a give-and-take adjustment of boundaries may produce a better result than adherence to the lines laid down in the Bill, favourable consideration will be given to such an arrangement. It may be that it could be extended beyond that, but I very much doubt whether an Amendment as big as the one I am proposing could be regarded as coming within Clause 6.
    Sir K. Joseph: The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. Clause 6 is meant to adjust boundaries on a give-and-take basis inside Greater London and to adjust periphery boundaries to take account of such points as arise in a place like Orpington, or Coulsdon and Purley where the green belt crosses the local authority boundary line.
    Mr. Ede: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. He confirms what I had supposed would be the case.
    When we come to deal with Epsom and Ewell, we have to recognise that long
    530
    before a Conservative Government interested themselves in the green belt, Epsom and Ewell had been engaged in creating one. There are more than 850 acres of land which the council has bought for inclusion in the green belt. There are also 424 acres at the Epsom end which the council bought, and it also bought the rights of the lord of the manor in the land. The council holds the freehold of the land and can exercise such rights as remain from the lord of the manor in the land.
    The council, in conjunction with the Epsom Grandstand Association and Mr. Stanley Wootton, the owner of Walton Downs, promoted a Bill in this House at considerable expense. It became the Epsom and Walton Downs Conservancy Act. This means that the land is now under public control and the ratepayers of Epsom and Ewell pay three-fifths of the money needed to pay conservators appointed under that Act.
    On the last Amendment the right hon. Gentleman seemed to exclude from his consideration of the green belt such areas as might be dotted about in an urban district. He seemed to exclude from the green belt such public open spaces as are part of the amenities of the area. Having been connected with Epsom and Ewell for many years, I know that the council has from time to time bought substantial areas of land which it has set out as recreation grounds and other places open to the public in the belief that this was a sensible way of keeping the green belt spirit alive even when some building took place.
    Perhaps I might read what Professor Abercrombie said about this work. In the Greater London Plan prepared by him in 1944 he said that the Borough of Epsom and Ewell was
    "almost entirely surrounded by natural barriers to further outward expansion."
    In the plan recommendations were made in the hope of
    "ensuring the maintenance of the individuality of Epsom and Ewell and preventing them from becoming absorbed in the morass of continuous suburbia."
    These recommendations have been implemented, and the boundaries of the borough today are the same as they were in 1944 when the late Professor Abercrombie described them.

    531
    Between 1944 and today efforts have been made to break up this arrangement set out by Professor Abercrombie. These efforts have been resisted both by the local authority and by the inhabitants, and by two decisions in 1947 the Minister confirmed that the land which had been so preserved should form a boundary between the borough and the adjoining areas and that the land should remain unbuilt on as he agreed
    "that it is desirable to prevent the coalescence of communities on the outer suburban fringe of London."
    There can be no doubt that this area has ensured that excessive building has not taken place.
    The right hon. Gentleman, when dealing with the last Amendment, said that he was concerned about the wishes of the inhabitants. There can be no doubt about the wishes of the inhabitants of Epsom and Ewell, whether they live in the three wards which the right hon. Gentleman proposes to take into London, or in the seven wards which in the end he agreed to leave out. On 7th March, 1962, there was a public meeting in the Baths Hall. It was attended by more than 1,000 residents and was addressed by the hon. and learned Member for Epsom and myself. After a discussion a resolution was passed declaring, among other things, the strong disapproval of the residents to any proposal to include their borough, or any part thereof, within the boundaries of Greater London, and that any proposal to amalgamate Epsom and Ewell with other local authorities would be contrary to the interests of the residents of the borough and not calculated to result in effective and convenient local government.
    In order to back up that public meeting the people in the three wards that it is now proposed to add to Greater London conducted a canvass of the whole area. It was carried out by all three political parties, by all the residents' associations and many other organisations who were in effective touch with the inhabitants. The total electorate of the three wards was 14,824, and the number of persons individually interviewed was 10,577. Those wishing to remain in the Borough of Epsom and Ewell, and in Surrey, amounted to 10,088, or 95·38 per cent. of those interviewed; those wishing to go
    532
    into London numbered 206, or 1·95 per cent., and those with no opinion for or against numbered 285, or 2·67 per cent. I suggest that this is not merely a general statement about the objection of the inhabitants but a definite statistical analysis of an inquiry conducted as I have indicated.
    I share the view that Kingston, Surbiton, and Malden and Coombe form a convenient unit for the purpose of this part of the Schedule. In fact, I anticipated the right hon. Gentleman. When I was chairman of the Surrey County Council at the time of the review of county districts I actually proposed that the borough of Kingston-on-Thames and the urban districts, as they then were, of Surbiton, and Malden and Coombe should be united to form a borough under that review.
    I made this suggestion at a dinner given by the Mayor of Kingston. The first result was that the urban district councils of Maiden and Coombe and Surbiton at once petitioned for a Charter of Incorporation, which they achieved. I am glad to know that, at last, the right hon. Gentleman is putting this proposal into the Bill. I have no criticism of that, for these three boroughs, taken together, now constitute the old civil parish of Kingston-upon-Thames. To that extent this is a reversion to an historic position. But there has never been any local responsibility for the government of the three wards proposed to be taken out of the Epsom and Ewell borough and put into the new borough, consisting of the three boroughs that I have enumerated.
    The parts that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to transfer to this new borough were, in the old days, part of the Epsom Rural District. They have always been administered from Epsom, by the urban council, the borough council that now exists, or the rural district council that used to operate over the area until the 1933 review of county districts. Therefore, all the communications between these three wards are directed towards Epsom and not towards the new borough which the Minister is creating. In the internal administration of the Surrey County Council—the area of which has been broken up into ten divisions, originating with the divisional executive for education—that system has been continued, and

    533
    all the public services of these three wards are administered from the County Divisional Office in Epsom.
    7.45 p m.
    It is difficult to see why it should be regarded as essential that these wards should be transferred to the new borough. I believe that there is something in the argument for continuous development. As I have proved from Professor Abercrombie's remarks, this borough, from the first, made quite sure that its boundaries would not invite the impingement upon them of the adjoning areas. As was said by a Minister of Town and Country Planning, at one time, they were not to become absorbed in the morass of suburban development. Right round the area there is a clear boundary, much of which has been created by and is maintained at public expense. The River Hogsmill, which I heard the Minister mention in connection with the last Amendment, has where it forms the eastern boundary an open space on both sides which completely cuts that area off from connections with Surbiton.
    Surbiton used to be called the "Queen of the Suburbs". We have never wanted to be suburbanised on the lines of Surbiton. There is a very strong local feeling in the borough that it is a unit of self-government which has considerable pride in itself and which discharges many duties not merely to itself but to London. The Epsom and Walton Downs Conservancy Act ensures that a great Cockney festival shall be held on open land every year, and although I do not often see the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Sir C. Black) there, at least I can assure him that we will maintain the desire of the people of London to enjoy themselves in their own way. We have provided this festival at our own expense because we recognise that, being just on the periphery, we have a duty to see that the amenities required by a great urban population like London are preserved, by the people who can preserve them from the point of view of the borough's historical associations.
    I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there has been no factious opposition to the Bill in general among the people of the borough. The reaction to this proposal was spontaneous, and has remained constant from the time it was first put forward. We acknowledge that
    534
    the Minister and his predecessors have received our representations from time to time with great courtesy and have, from time to time, slightly varied the boundary, moving it from one river to the next. It is only because we believe that our unit of self-government has earned for itself a place in the affection and esteem of its inhabitants that we resist this proposal.
    The second of these two Amendments, which hang together, deals with the question of the boundary. This boundary corresponds to nothing that has anything to do with the history of the community or the present development of the borough. When one looks at it on the map, as I said during the Second Reading debate, it looks like the edge of a very worn-out saw. It is, in fact, a ward boundary, and one draws the boundaries of wards in a different way from the boundaries of urban districts and boroughs. This boundary will be a laughing stock as long as it endures, for it cannot be said to act for the convenience of local government. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will feel, in view of the efforts made by this area to keep its boundaries open and to maintain great open spaces largely for the benefit of the people of London, that it is not wise to persist in his proposal when the views of the people who have created this community, and who maintain it, and who hope to continue to live in it, are so strongly against the proposals.
    Sir C. Black: I wish to support what has been put so clearly before the Committee by the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede). I shall be brief, because we are working to a strict timetable and it is not possible to debate these matters at the length which perhaps it might have been desirable to do, having regard to the very important issues involved. I wish to make clear that the opposition to the severance of the North wards of Epsom from the main borough and their inclusion in the Greater London area is not confined to one side of the Committee. There are hon. Members on this side who would agree with everything which has been said by the right hon. Member for South Shields; and if this matter has to be voted on, some of my hon. Friends and myself will feel compelled to go into the Division Lobby with the right hon. Member for South Shields and other hon. Members of his

    535
    party who may be inclined to support him there.
    The case against severance in general and also in particular is surely overwhelming. The Royal Commission expressed itself as being strongly opposed to the severance of local authority areas and reference was made in a former debate on Coulsdon and Purley to what was said on this matter by the Leader of the House during the debate on the White Paper. It is interesting to note that Epsom and Ewell is the only Surrey district which it is proposed shall be severed, and of all the districts round the Greater London area there is only one other in respect of which severance is proposed.
    In that case, on the face of it, there is a reasonable and logical argument in favour of severance, namely, that a small part of the area consists of a London County Council estate and it is proposed to bring that estate into the Greater London area, but to leave the rest of the district council area outside Greater London. That seems to me to be an exceptional case which in the circumstances justifies the severance. But regarding Epsom and Ewell, I suggest that the proposed severance is nothing more nor less than a calamity and it is so viewed —as was said by the right hon. Member for South Shields—by practically everybody in the locality.
    I anticipate that my right hon. Friend will accept the view which he accepted in the previous case, that what he is proposing to do is contrary to the wishes of the great majority of the residents. On that point I think we are on common ground and therefore, in this brief speech, I need not develop the argument to show that public opinion in Epsom and Ewell has shown itself, without a possibility of misunderstanding, to be almost wholly opposed to this proposal. But I must make the point that I think that the argument which my right hon. Friend put forward in the previous case to justify overriding local opinion is strange and, I would say, very dubious. It represents a view of democracy to which I find myself reluctant to subscribe.
    What my right hon. Friend said—I listened to him very carefully—was that the people in the area—I think he was inclined to acquit them of any negligence
    536
    in this matter—had not read the Report of the Royal Commission; that therefore they were not really competent to pronounce on the matter, and so it was right to prefer the view of the Royal Commission, and other experts who had examined the matter, rather than the view of the people in the locality. In this day and age that seems to me a strange and a very dangerous doctrine.
    Presumably, my right hon. Friend takes the view that people in Coulsdon and Purley and Epsom and Ewell are competent to take part in the election of the Government of this country and to express their view on foreign affairs, and the defence policy of the nation, and on great matters affecting national and international interests. He does not for instance propose to deprive them of their suffrage because presumably they had not read every Bill that a Government had passed during their time of office before deciding whether to vote again for that Government at the next General Election or for some other form of Government. I suggest that this cult of the expert—because that is what it is—is being carried very much too far, and in a matter of this kind, the people who live in the district may very well have an instinct far more sound than the view of the so-called experts sitting in offices in Whitehall, with their maps, plans and statistics, trying to form an expert opinion which may be completely wrong in the judgment of the people who have lived in the area for years and who know its history and its circumstances.
    The argument is not very much more than the old argument that on matters of this kind the views of the people most concerned do not count, because the gentleman in Whitehall knows best. That is a view on this matter that I would most certainly repudiate. This case is different from the case of Coulsdon and Purley in at least one important particular. My right hon. Friend needs the population of these wards of Epsom and Ewell to make up a viable borough, because even with these north wards of Epsom and Ewell he gets a population of only 165,000. Bearing in mind the education powers of the authority in particular, that is really too small a population for the purpose, and he would naturally be in a difficulty were he to leave the 20,000 people in the north

    537
    wards of Epsom and Ewell in Epsom and Ewell, and reduce the population of the proposed new borough to only 145,000.
    8.0 p.m.
    Mr. Ede: I have been informed that at one of the interviews between the Minister and representatives of Epsom and Ewell he said that statistics had not entered into it. I think it only fair to say that. Although I accept the hon. Member's argument, the Minister has never based his claim for grabbing these three wards on the fact that he wants the Borough of Kingston-upon-Thames to be viable.
    Sir C. Black: I am obliged to the right hon. Member and I accept what he says. On the other hand, if I were standing in the shoes of my right hon. Friend, this is a matter that I should have looked at earlier on in considering the whole problem. It must be clear to him that even with these north wards in the London borough the population would be too small and that would create a new problem. It aggravates the problem which already exists if he leaves 20,000 in Epsom and Ewell as we are asking him to do. I hope that my right hon. Friend will dismiss this factor from the consideration of the case, because it would he a dreadful thing for 20,000 people to be taken out of the district to which for many years they have belonged, in which they want to remain, merely in order to comply with what is neither more nor less than a mathematical formula.
    After all, living communities are more important than any mathematical formula can be. This is a borough which I know well; not so well as the right hon. Member for South Shields, but one I have known nearly all my life. I have got to know the circumstances of the borough during the twenty years I have been a member of the county council. I should describe Epsom, the present borough, as a proud and ancient town, a well-governed town, a progressive town that down the years has given the most ample evidences of its competency to manage its own affairs in a thoroughly progressive and efficient manner.
    This proposed severance of the borough has produced the utmost dismay among the inhabitants and will cause infinite
    538
    distress both to those whom it is proposed to sever as well as those whom it is proposed should remain in the present borough. I beg my right hon. Friend not to become too obsessed with figures, with population factors, with mathematical formulae. A fate which I am quite sure he would wish to avoid is that of going down to history as a Tory "desiccated calculating machine."
    Sir K. Joseph: I am faced once again with a formidable challenge from both sides of the Committee representing, I recognise, very strong feelings in the area. Once again we are dealing with a question of the definition of the outer boundary of Greater London. As in the case of Coulsdon and Purley, we have looked consciously for a break in the development of the continuous built-up town. Here there has been a change of view. The Royal Commission recommended that Epsom and Ewell as a whole should be included in Greater London. It was, however, represented to my predecessor that Epsom and Ewell had had an independent growth and development and, unlike so much of the rest of London, had grown northwards rather than being the result of a growth of London radially outwards. This was recognised by the Government, and my predecessor made it clear that legislation would exclude the community of Epsom and Ewell itself.
    The right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) described me as a latter day Judge Jeffreys. I am sure he is a better historian than to think that Judge Jeffreys would not only remit half the original sentence, as my predecessor did when withdrawing Epsom and Ewell from the Bill, but would go on, as my predecessor continued, and exclude a further ward. What happened was that under continued argument from both sides of the Committee and under continued demonstration of strong public feeling my predecessor searched again and again to find the genuine break in the continuous town development that would be the proper outer boundary for Greater London.
    The Royal Commission thought that it lay south of Epsom and Ewell. My predecessor carried it first to the north so as to leave four wards of Epsom and Ewell local authority inside Greater London, and

    539
    later he took yet another look and excluded one of those four wards. The break in the development has now been recognised to lie along the River Hogs-mill. The right hon. Member for South Shields and my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Sir C. Black) must recognise that the Government have moved far in studying the interests of this area to meet the case put by them that Epsom and Ewell had had an independent growth and should be excluded from Greater London.
    It is unfair of my hon. Friend to plead, on the one hand, that the Government should merely study this matter and, when we have done so, to complain that the result is severance of a local authority area. We have never disguised the fact that this Bill is intended to cover the continuous built-up town. I do not think my hon. Friend challenged that. He may challenge the Bill as a whole, but he does not dispute that this is a principle on which it is logical to work. If in our search for a break in development we find that it lies within a local authority area instead of at the edge of that area, we are obliged to say to the local authority either that it must all be in London or part must be severed from the rest.
    Sir C. Black: May I put this point to my right hon. Friend? Epsom and Ewell is by no means the only district to which this argument could be applied. It is the professed intention of the Government to do all they can to avoid the severance of districts. If in this case three-tenths of the district is claimed to be in the built-up area and seven-tenths is out of it, I think it would be useful to avoid the severance of the district by excluding the whole.
    Sir K. Joseph: That is a possible point of view. It depends upon the balance of advantages. On the one hand we may preserve a local authority area, which after all is a creation of the law and not a recognition of fact on the ground, and on the other hand we can unify the government of what is a continuous built-up town. The Government have decided that, faced with this dilemma, it is better, in the rare cases in which it is essential, to sever a local authority, damaging and distressing though this is, and by that means to preserve under the
    540
    Greater London Council, the continuous built-up town as a whole, and thus obtain the benefit of the strategic services which that council will be able to provide.
    Mr. Ede: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me which strategic services the area will gain?
    Sir K. Joseph: I should like to go on to the question of the boundaries because a number of representations have been made to the Government that by leaving the three northern wards in London we are adding an area which scarcely has access to the development which lies to the north-west and to the north-east. Much stress has been laid upon the barriers to movement which are alleged to exist, and I have been told a great deal about the railway line between Stoneleigh and Worcester Park stations and the houses on the road which runs along the boundary with Malden and Coombe. But these barriers are in no way remarkable in a built-up area and they are not the formidable iron curtain which they have tended to become in discussions. In the Stoneleigh ward east of the railway line, even these barriers are entirely absent.
    My hon. Friend said that the Government have added these wards to Greater London only in order to bolster up the population of the Kingston group. There is no foundation in this whatever, and I deny it categorically. The outer boundary of Greater London was considered quite separately and in advance of the study of the borough groupings. Any other method of procedure would make nonsense; the first step is to define the outer boundary and then, when that is clear, one considers the borough groupings.
    The inclusion of the northern wards of Epsom and Ewell was announced in May, 1962, and at that time the tentative groupings put out by the Ministry as a basis for discussion would have included Epsom and Ewell in the same group as Sutton. It was at the conference of local authorities held to discuss future groupings in early June, 1962, that the representatives of Epsom and Ewell, still expressing their opposition, said that if any part of their borough had to be included in Greater London, it should be included in the Kingston group, because communications with that group

    541
    were very much better than communication with Sutton. That preference is recorded in the town clerks' report, and that is the basis of the ultimate grouping. If I do nothing else, I hope to persuade my hon. Friend that there is no substance in his charge that these northern wards are being left in Greater London in order to reach a certain mystic number in the borough grouping. That is not so.
    I come to the most difficult part of what I have to say--when I deal with public opinion. I do not want to repeat all that I said on the previous Amendment, though it is all relevant here. I am not for a moment saying that the people outside the House have no right to judge unless they have read all the documents and the underlying evidence, and it would be the folly of the courtiers of Canute for me to bid people not to have opinions unless they have studied the evidence. They will always have opinions and express them strongly. But when we are legislating, having studied the evidence we are bound to do what we judge to be right, even if occasionally this challenges and upsets public opinion. This is our duty, and it is recognised on both sides of the House. In this case, having studied all the evidence, we believe that the benefits to Greater London can emerge only if all the metropolitan area comes within the purview of the Greater London Council.
    8.15 p.m.
    Why do we believe that? Because at the moment the traffic, housing, planning and transport implications are not dealt with at all on a metropolitan scale. I regret having to bother the Committee with a familiar argument, but it may be read in the area concerned. I repeat what I said on an earlier Amendment—that if people, whether they live in the centre of London or, as in this case, on the periphery, believe that they can stand still and insist on no change in local government, they will one day—and not very far from now—find their amenities suffering through the inability of the larger community of which they undeniably form a part to manage its increasingly complex affairs in a modern fashion.
    I am not denying the competence of people to make major decisions. Their sanction is that they elect a Member of
    542
    Parliament and in this way elect a Government—and I hope that they do this on results. The Government are not promising quick results from the Bill. But I think that it is commonly recognised on both sides of the Committee that some reform is needed in the local government of Greater London. We have heard continually from hon. Members opposite that reforms would have come from them, too, although not reforms of this nature.
    If my hon. Friend asks me whether I am telling his constituents and my hon. and learned Friend, who cannot speak on this occasion, that they are not competent to judge these matters, I reply to him by pointing out that under our Constitution the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not consult the public about the taxes which he imposes and the President of the Board of Trade does not consult firms about tariff changes which he makes. In this case, too, we have a duty to take into account the views of people but, ultimately, to do what we regard as right, even if it is unpopular.
    The right hon. Gentleman was courteous enough to say that my predecessors and I have paid great heed to public opinion and to the representatives of the people of the northern wards of Epsom and Ewell. I have read all that has been sent to me. My predecessor saw a deputation. I saw a deputation. It is not lightly that a Minister goes against such strongly expressed public opinion, but I venture to point out that I recognise the connection which there is between the present local government structure and the evils of which no doubt people complain, such as traffic and road congestion. I recognise that some people in 'Greater London are homeless and that many people need housing. These evils do not flow from the negligence or the incompetence of the existing local authorities. They do not flow from anything which one can pin on individuals. They flow in part from the fact that there are not the powers in the present local government structure to enable these problems to be tackled as they need to be tackled.
    Although we have more time for the debate, I have said all that I need to say. I hope that I have shown the seriousness with which the Government regard public opinion in this area. I hope that it will not be forgotten that the Government excluded first six out of the ten wards

    543
    of Epsom and Ewell and latterly a seventh. I agree that the three wards to be retained in Greater London are being retained, as far as I can judge, against their public will. But it is because we believe that the advantages of the Bill can be available to Greater London only if all the continuous town is within the scope
    of the Bill that I ask the Committee, if the Amendment is pressed, to reject it decisively.
    Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 203, Noes 173.

    Division No. 60.]

    AYES

    [8.19 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

    Aitken, W. T.

    Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Allason, James

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Ashton, Sir Hubert

    Harvey,SirArthurVere(Macelesf'd)

    Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Partridge, E.

    Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

    Hastings, Stephen

    Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

    Barlow, Sir John

    Hay, John

    Peel, John

    Batsford, Brian

    Hendry, Forbes

    Percival, Ian

    Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

    Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    Berkeley, Humphry

    Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

    Pilkington, Sir Richard

    Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Pott, Percivall

    Bidgood, John C.

    Hobson, Sir John

    Price, David (Eastlelgh)

    Biffen, John

    Hocking, Philip N.

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Holland, Philip

    Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

    Bishop, F. P.

    Hopkins, Alan

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Bossom, Clive

    Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Bourne-Arton, A.

    Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

    Rees, Hugh

    Box, Donald

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Braine, Bernard

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Renton, Rt. Hon. David

    Brewis, John

    Hulbert, Sir Norman

    Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

    Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Buck, Antony

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

    Bullard, Denys

    James, David

    Robinson, Rt. Hn. Sir R. (B'pool.S.)

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Johnson Smith Geoffrey

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Chataway, Christopher

    Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Jones, Arthur (Northants S.)

    St. Clair, M.

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith

    Sharpies, Richard

    Cleaver, Leonard

    Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

    Shaw, M.

    Cole, Norman

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Smith, Dudley (Br'nff'd & Chiswick)

    Cooke, Robert

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

    Cooper, A. E.

    Kimball, Marcus

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Corfield, F. V.

    Leavey, J. A.

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Costain, A. P.

    Leburn, Gilmour

    Stodart, J. A.

    Coulson, Michael

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

    Craddock, Sir Beresford

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Crawley, Aldan

    Lilley, F. J. P.

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Ollver

    Lindsay, Sir Martin

    Tapsell, Peter

    Cunningham, Knox

    Linstead, Sir Hugh

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Curran, Charles

    Longbottom, Charles

    Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Longden, Gilbert

    Temple, John M.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Thomas, Peter (Conway)

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    McLaren, Martin

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Digby, Simon wingfield

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Tlley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Touche, Rt, Hon. Sir Gordon

    Drayson, G. B.

    McLean, Neil (Inverness)

    Turner, Colin

    du Cann, Edward

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Duncan, Sir James

    McMaster Stanley R.

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Elliott,R.W.(Nwcastle-upon-Tyne,N.)

    Maddan, Martin

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

    Maitland, Sir John

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

    Farey-Jones, F, W.

    Marshall, Douglas

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell

    Farr, John

    Marten, Neil

    Walder, David

    Fell, Anthony

    Matthews, Gordon (Merlden)

    Webster, David

    Finlay, Graeme

    Mawby, Ray

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Fisher, Nig<ob/>

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J,

    Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

    Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Maydon, Lb-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Freeth, Denzil

    Mills, Stratton

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    Gammans, Lady

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Wise, A. R.

    George, Sir John (Pollok)

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Gibson-Watt, David

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

    Morgan, William

    Woollam, John

    Clyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

    Morrison, John

    Worsley, Marcus

    Goodhew, Victor

    Nabarro, Gerald

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Gower, Raymond

    Neave, Airey

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Green, Alan

    Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

    Mr. MacArthur and Mr. Pym

    NOES

    Abse, Leo

    Hannan, William

    Neal, Harold

    Ainstey, William

    Harper, Joseph

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Albu, Austen

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

    Noel-Baker,Rt.Hn.Philip(Derby,S.)

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Hart, Mrs. Judith

    Oram, A. E.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Hayman, F. H.

    Oswald, Thomas

    Awbery, Stan (Bristol Central)

    Henderson, Rt.Hn.Arthur(Rwly Regis)

    Padley, W. E.

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Beaney, Alan

    Hill, J. (Midlothian)

    Parker, John

    Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Hilton, A. V.

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Benson, Sir George

    Holman, Percy

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Black, Sir Cyril

    Holt, Arthur

    Pentland, Norman

    Blackburn, F.

    Houghton, Douglas

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A, G.

    Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

    Popplewell, Ernest

    Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W.(Leics, S.W.)

    Hoy, James H.

    Prentice, R. E.

    Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Bowles, Frank

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    pursey, Cmdr. Harry

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Hunter, A, E,

    Rankin, John

    Bradley, Tom

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Redhead, E. C.

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

    Rhodes, H.

    Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

    Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Callaghan, James

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

    Carmichael, Nell

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Ross, William

    Castle, Mrs. Barbara

    Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Russell, Ronald

    Chapman, Donald

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Cliffe, Michael

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Collick, Percy

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Kelley, Richard

    Slater, Mrs. Harrlet (Stoke, N.)

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

    Crosland, Anthony

    King, Dr. Horace

    Small, William

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Lawson, George

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Culler), Mrs. Alice

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Dalyell, Tam

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Spriggs, Loslle

    Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Steele, Thomas

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Lipton, Marcus

    Stewart, Mlchael (Fulham)

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Loughlin, Charles

    Stones, William

    Deer, George

    Lubbock, Eric

    Stros8,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

    Delargy, Hugh

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Swain, Thomas

    Dempsey, James

    McCann, John

    Swingler, Stephen

    Dodds, Norman

    MacColl, James

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Doughty, Charles

    Mclnnes, James

    Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Driberg, Tom

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

    Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

    Thornton, Ernest

    Eds, Rt. Hon. C.

    MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

    Tomney, Frank

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Manuel, Archie

    Wade, Donald

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Mapp, Charles

    Warbey, William

    Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

    Mason, Roy

    Whitlock, William

    Elliot, Cant. Walter (Carshalton)

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Fletcher, Erir

    Mellish, R. J.

    Williams, D. J, (Neath)

    Forman, J. C,

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Millan, Bruce

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Ginsburg, David

    Mllne, Edward

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Gourlay, Harry

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Winterbottom, R. E.

    Greenwood, Anthony

    Monslow, walter

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Moody, A. S.

    Woof, Robert

    Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

    Morris, John

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Hamilton, William (West Fife)

    Moyle, Arthur

    Mr. Grey and Mr. Ifor Davies.

    Mr. Laurence Pavitt: I beg to move, in page 90, line 24, column 2, to leave out "borough of "Wembley and" and to insert "borough of".
    This matter has already been discussed in a previous debate. I will not delay the Committee any further. I think that the
    case is irrefutable that the boundaries are unnatural.
    Question put, That "boroughs of Wembley and" stand part of the Schedule:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 208, Noes 167.

    Division No. 61.]

    AYES

    [8.30 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Batsford, Brian

    Bourne-Arton, A.

    Aitken, W. T.

    Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

    Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

    Allason, James

    Berkeley, Humphry

    Box, Donald

    Arbuthnot, John

    Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    Braine, Bernard

    Ashton, Sir Hubert

    Biffen, John

    Brewis, John

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Buck, Antony

    Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

    Bishop, F. P.

    Bullard, Denys

    Barlow, Sir John

    Bossom, Hon. Clive

    Butler,Rt.Hn.R.A.(Saffron Walden)

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Holt, Arthur

    Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Hopkins, Alan

    Peel, John

    Chataway, Christopher

    Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

    Percival, Ian

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

    Pilkington, Sir Richard

    Cleaver, Leonard

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Pott, Percivall

    Cole, Norman

    Hulbert, Sir Norman

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Cooke, Robert

    Hutchlson, Michael Clark

    Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

    Cooper, A. E.

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    James, David

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Corfield, F. V.

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Rees, Hugh

    Costain, A. P.

    Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Coulson, Michael

    Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith

    Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

    Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Kaberry, Sir Donald

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Crawley, Aidan

    Kerans, Cdr, J. S.

    Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Robinson, Rt. Hon. Sir R. (B'pool.S.)

    Cunningham, Knox

    Kimball, Marcus

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Curran, Charles

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Leavey, J. A.

    Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Leburn, Gilmour

    St. Clair, M.

    d'Avigdor-Coldsmid, Sir Henry

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Sharples, Richard

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Shaw, M.

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M,

    Lllley, F. J. P.

    Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

    Drayson, G. B.

    Lindsay, Sir Martin

    Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

    du Cann, Edward

    Linstead, Sir Hugh

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Duncan, Sir James

    Longbottom, Charles

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Longden, Gilbert

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Elliott,R.W.(Nwcastle-upon-Tyne,N.)

    Lubbock, Eric

    Stodart, J. A.

    Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

    Errington, Sir Eric

    McLaren, Martin

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Farr, John

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Tapsell, Peter

    Fell, Anthony

    McLean, Nell (Inverness)

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

    Fisher, Nigel

    McMaster, Stanley R.

    Temple, John M.

    Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Maddan, Martin

    Thomas, Peter (Conway)

    Freeth, Denzil

    Maitland, Sir John

    Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton)

    Gammans, Lady

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    George, J, C. (Pollok)

    Marshall, Douglas

    Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Marten, Neil

    Turner, Colin

    Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

    Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

    Mawby, Ray

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Goodhew, Victor

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Gower, Raymond

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    Mills, Stratton

    Wade, Donald

    Green, Alan

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Walder, David

    Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    Webster, David

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Morgan, William

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Morrison, John

    Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vera (Macclesf'd)

    Nabarro, Sir Gerald

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Neave, Airey

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    Hastings, Stephen

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Hay, John

    Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael

    Wise, A. R.

    Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

    Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Hendry, Forbes

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

    Woollam, John

    Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Worstey, Marcus

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Hobson, Sir John

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Hocking, Philip N.

    Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Holland, Philip

    Partridge, E.

    Mr. MacArthur and Mr. Pym.

    NOES

    Abse, Leo

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Delargy, Hugh

    Ainsley, William

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Dempsey, James

    Albu, Austen

    Callaghan, James

    Dodds, Norman

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Camtichael, Neil

    Doughty, Charles

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Castle, Mrs. Barbara

    Driberg, Tom

    Awbery, Stan (Bristol Central)

    Chapman, Donald

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Cliffe, Michael

    Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

    Beaney, Alan

    Collick, Percy

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Bence, Cyril

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

    Benson, Sir George

    Crosland, Anthony

    Fletcher, Eric

    Black, Sir Cyril

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Forman, J. C,

    Blackburn, F.

    Cullen, Mrs. Alice

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. C

    Dalyell, Tam

    Ginsburg, David

    Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics, S.W.)

    Davles, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Gourlay, Harry

    Bowles, Frank

    Davles, Harold (Leek)

    Greenwood, Anthony

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Grey, Charles

    Bradley, Tom

    Davles, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Deer, George

    Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

    548

    549

    Hamilton, William (West Fife)

    MacColl, James

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Hannan, William

    McInnes, James

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Harper, Joseph

    MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

    Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

    Manuel, Archie

    Ross, William

    Hart, Mrs. Judith

    Mapp, Charles

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Hayman, F. H.

    Mason, Roy

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Henderson,Rt.Hn.Arthur(Rwly Regis)

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    Mellish, R. J.

    Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

    Hill, J. (Midlothian)

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Small, William

    Hilton, A. V.

    Millan, Bruce

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Holman, Percy

    Milne, Edward

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Hoy, James H.

    Monslow, Walter

    Steele, Thomas

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Moody, A. S.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Morris, John

    Stones, William

    Hunter A. E,

    Moyle, Arthur

    Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Mulley, Frederick

    Swain, Thomas

    Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

    Neal, Harold

    Swingler, Stephen

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Noel-Baker,Rt.Hn.Philip(Derby,S.)

    Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Jay, Rt. Hon. Dougtas

    Oram, A. E.

    Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Oswald, Thomas

    Thornton, Ernest

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Padley, W. E.

    Tomney, Frank

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Parker, John

    Warbey, William

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Whitlock, William

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Wllkins, W. A.

    Kelley, Richard

    Pentland, Norman

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

    King, Dr. Horace

    Popplewell, Ernest

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Lawson, George

    Prentice, R. E.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (huyton)

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Winterbottom, R. E.

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Rankin, John

    Woof, Robert

    Lipton, Marcus

    Redhead, E. C.

    Loughlin, Charles

    Rhodes, H.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Wing Commander Bullus and

    McCann, John

    Roberta, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Mr. Russell.

    Mr. Michael Stewart: I beg to move, in page 90, line 27, leave out the first "Barnet".
    The small urban district on whose behalf I am moving the Amendment—which is designed to delete the word "Barnet" where it occurs at such position as to include the Urban District of Barnet in one of the London Boroughs—has the doubtful advantage of being represented in the House of Commons by the Chancellor of the Exchequer who, apparently, was either unable or unwilling to express the wishes of its council and citizens on the matter. Its population is only 28,000, and when we compare that with its area, which is getting on for 5,000 acres, we realise at once that this is a predominantly rural area—I think even more so than the area of Coulsdon and Purley which we discussed earlier. It is an area in which a considerable part of the green belt is situated. If the criterion for the boundary of the whole Greater London area is to be the green belt, one cannot make a convincing case for including Barnet in Greater London.
    When we discussed the Coulsdon and Purley area, the Minister at one point appeared to argue that areas of this kind should be included in Greater
    550
    London so that they could help to solve Greater London's housing problem. When it was pointed out to the Minister that his argument would be valid only if he proposed to build in the green belt —which he has emphatically declared he will not do—he advanced a more obscure argument, the tenor of which seemed to be that it was somehow necessary to include every one of these peripheral areas that the Government have now decided shall be in the Bill if the whole structure of Greater London was to be workable, and if its boroughs and the Greater London Council together were to have power to solve what the Minister repeatedly tells us are the great strategic problems of traffic and planning, or the problem of housing.
    That line of argument cannot seriously be maintained about the urban district of Barnet. If it is put into Greater London it will become a small part of a very large borough. The borough now proposed, of which it is intended Barnet should form a part, would have a population of 318,000. If the Amendment were carried and Barnet were excluded, that borough would have a population of 290,000. It cannot by any stretch of logic be maintained that the new Borough No, 30 cannot do its job

    551
    if it only has a population of 290,000 and can do it if there is a population of 318,000. It cannot for a moment be suggested that the inclusion of Barnet is necessary in order to make No. 30 a viable borough.
    Barnet would become a small area in this very large borough instead of being, as it is now, a well-established district, with a considerable history as a district, in the county of Hertfordshire. That it is in Hertfordshire is particularly to the point, because if we look at all the counties affected by the Bill we find that London and Middlesex are being swallowed completely, by far the greater part of Surrey is being drawn into Greater London, and very substantial parts of Essex and Kent are also being drawn in. There is, therefore, no Surrey, Kent or Essex area that could plead that it was being very exceptionally treated by being brought into Greater London.
    On the other hand, only a tiny proportion of Hertfordshire is being brought in. To be taken out of Hertfordshire into Greater London is an unusual fate, and it would require unusual weight of argument to justify it—particularly in the case of a district whose entire links are with Hertfordshire; that never has regarded itself as part of Greater London; that does not so regard itself now, and which at no time has in any way been encouraged by law, administration or policy to regard itself as part of Greater London.
    For all administrative purposes, for social purposes, and for economic and industrial growth, Barnet is and has been part of Hertfordshire. We notice, for example, that one of its notable public institutions is the South Hertfordshire College of Further Education, of the existence of which in their district the people are proud. That institution is a creation of the Hertfordshire Education Committee, and as I think it is universally accepted that Hertfordshire has a very good record as an education authority, the desire of the people of Barnet to continue to have their education managed as part of the Hertfordshire structure is a very reasonable one. What the Bill offers them is to be put into a large borough with all the other parts of which they have little affinity, the administrative centre of which must be
    552
    far away, in which they will not have the special status which they now have as a district in the County of Hertfordshire and a borough of whose educational prowess we have yet to have evidence.
    8.45 p.m.
    If one considers where young people in Barnet go for their jobs on leaving school, we find that two-thirds of them take up work in some part of Hertfordshire. The whole link and trend of the district is with Hertfordshire and not with Greater London. That is not only what is happening with young school leavers. It is true of most adult workers.
    A considerable number of people who live in Barnet work in Hertfordshire districts—in Boreham Wood, for example, or in Potters Bar. It is interesting to notice that whereas the people of Barnet are to be included in Greater London, although they do not wish to be, a considerable section of opinion in Potters Bar wants to come into Greater London but the Government will not let them come in. This is an extraordinary degree of perversity. Although Potters Bar was formerly part of Middlesex and, therefore, would normally have been brought into the Greater London Plan, it is now to be pushed out into Hertfordshire against its wishes, whereas Barnet, which is part of Hertfordshire, is to suffer the rare and exceptional fate of being hauled out of Hertfordshire and put into Greater London against its wishes and against the whole trend of its life and development.
    Not only is this substantially a green belt area, but Barnet can claim to have been a pioneer of the idea of the green belt before it was put in any formal or precise form. Barnet has a good record on housing but has combined it with proper regard to open spaces for the area. Altogether, Barnet has been doing very well, both as a district and as a part of Hertfordshire.
    We are obliged again to put the questions that arose over the issues of Coulsdon and Purley. If any hon. Members felt sympathy with Coulsdon and Purley, I hope that they will be able to cast their image right across Greater London and have sympathy with a similar case. Here again is somewhere which, on the argument as to green belt, cannot be said to be properly a part of Greater London, an area which there is

    553
    no need to add to Borough No. 30 to make it viable, an area whose whole links are with Hertfordshire and, above all, an area whose council, without discrimination of party, and whose citizens want to remain part of Hertfordshire.
    We have had no concessions from the Government during the whole of the Bill. At times, there have been signs that a concession or two might be made, but none I: as been forthcoming except the suggestion that those who do not get what they want now might be able to get it by the alterations procedure after the Bill has gone through. That is a messy way to proceed. If the Government are not convinced of their case now, as they ought to be, what conceivable guarantee is there that they will be convinced subsequently if an attempt is made under Clause 6 to get an alteration?
    The only consolation that the Minister was able to offer one of his hon. Friends concerning Coulsdon and Purley was that if he tried to proceed later under Clause 6, he might, said the Minister, be able to make a good case. He was able to make a very good case, as we are doing now for Barnet.
    At this stage I hope that the Government might be willing, if only to show that they are not inflexibly obstinate, to accept the plea of this urban district to remain part of the county of which it is proud to be a part and in which it has worked well.
    Mr. Corfield: I can assure the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) right from the start that there is no question that we are merely doing our sums in regard to this arrangement. There is no question of worrying whether we have 318,000 in this borough, No. 30, or 290,000, and I am sure he realises that as well as anybody.
    The whole crux of the inclusion of Barnet is whether or not the built-up area there is part of the continuous built-up area of Greater London. Of course, by and large, the greater part—virtually all —of the green belt will be outside the boundary, but there are bound to be areas such as this where there are wedges of green belt which come in between tongues of built-up area but where the district as a whole is a continuous part of Greater London.
    554
    I am sure that if the hon. Gentleman will look at the map—the map I have here was printed in 1958, so one can assume that if anything has changed it has probably changed in the direction of more building rather than less—he will see that it cannot be denied that the built-up area of the main part of Barnet, part of which is shown as Chipping Barnet and part as Barnet Vale, adjoins the built-up area of East Barnet and Friern Barnet stretching right away into Finchley and the rest of Greater London.
    It is of some consequence, I think, that the Barnet Council itself has recognised the continuity of its area with East Barnet. Indeed its original plan was that it and the neighbouring area of East Barnet should remain included in Hertfordshire. Yet the East Barnet Council has never suggested that its area is not part of the continuous built-up area or that it should be excluded. So there is this clear admission of a continuous built-up link between these two areas one of which is quite clear as to its position within the built-up area. Taking the southern part of the built-up area somewhat to the east of the village of Totteridge, it is quite clear that the built-up area there is continuous with the northern part of the Borough of Finchley. This is the reason why it has been included, and I submit to the hon. Gentleman that it is the only logical thing to do.
    Of course, we appreciate the ancient ties with Hertfordshire, the educational achievements of the county and the facilities that the people of Barnet enjoy. But I am assured that the preponderance of Hertfordshire children who attend the South Herts. College of Further Education do so only because of the fact that Barnet is itself in Hertfordshire, and that once we make this change the greater numbers of the students will, in fact, come from the built-up area which will come into Greater London.
    The hon. Gentleman made a point of the fact that so many of the people leaving school leave London during their working day to work in the towns of Hertfordshire. That may well be, and, no doubt, travelling is much more pleasant in that direction than in the other, but we are basing this system of the built-up area on where people live. Nobody has yet suggested we should exclude

    555
    the outer green belt towns, the commuter towns, because people go to work in London. I suggest that this is not one of the hon. Gentleman's better arguments. Nor, indeed, do I think that the argument that there is something more sacrosanct about the Hertfordshire boundary than about any other boundary holds very much water, and the argument over Potters Bar falls into exactly the same category. There again, if one looks at the map, there is a clear break in the continuous built-up area. What matters is where the character of the town starts, and l do not think that it can be denied
    that the character of the town starts when one enters what is the old village of Barnet and the development that has taken place around it.
    On those grounds, therefore, I cannot give the hon. Gentleman any hope. He said he felt that we were due for a concession. Well, I can only disappoint him and say that I must postpone that pleasure still further.
    Question put, That "Barnet" stand part of the Schedule:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 200, Noes 168.

    Division No. 62.]

    AYES

    [8.57 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Fisher, Nigel

    Maddan, Martin

    Aitken, W. T.

    Freeth, Denzil

    Maltland, Sir John

    Allason, James

    Gammans, Lady

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Arbuthnot, John

    George, Sir John (Pollok)

    Marshall, Douglas

    Ashton, Sir Hubert

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Marten, Neil

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

    Matthews, Gordon (Merlden)

    Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

    Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

    Mawby, Ray

    Barlow, Sir John

    Goodhew, Victor

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Batsford, Brian

    Gower, Raymond

    Mayson, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

    Grant-Ferris, R.

    Mills, Stratton

    Berkeley, Humphry

    Green, Alan

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Biffen, John

    Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Morgan, William

    Bishop, F. P.

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Nabarro, Sir Gerald

    Bossom, Hon. Clive

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

    Neave, Airey

    Bourne-Arton, A.

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

    Box, Donald

    Hastings, Stephen

    Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

    Braine, Bernard

    Hay, John

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Brewis, John

    Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

    Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

    Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

    Hendry, Forbes

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Buck, Antony

    Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Billiard, Denys

    Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Butler,Rt. Hn.R.A.(Saffron Walden)

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Hobson, Sir John

    Partridge, E.

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Hocking, Philip N.

    Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

    Chataway, Christopher

    Holland, Philip

    Peel, John

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Hopkins, Alan

    Percival, Ian

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    Cleaver, Leonard

    Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

    Pilkington, Sir Richard

    Cole, Norman

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

    Pott, Percivall

    Cooke, Robert

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Cooper, A. E.

    Hulbert, Sir Norman

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Cordeaux, Lt. Col. J. K.

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

    Corfield, F. V.

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Pym, Francis

    Costain, A. P.

    James, David

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Coulson, Michael

    Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

    Rees, Hugh

    Craddlock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Crawley, Aidan

    Kaberry, Sir Donald

    Renton, Rt. Hon. David

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Cunningham, Knox

    Kimball, Marcus

    Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

    Curran, Charles

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Robinson, Rt. Hon. Sir R. (B'pool,S.)

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Leavey, J. A.

    Rodgera, John (Sevenoaks)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Leburn, Gllmour

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    St. Clair, M.

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

    Lilley, F. J. P.

    Sharples, Richard

    Drayson, G. B.

    Lindsay, Sir Martin

    Shaw, M.

    du Cann, Edward

    Linstead, Sir Hugh

    Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

    Duncan, Sir James

    Longbottom, Charles

    Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig, Sir John

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Longden, Gilbert

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Elliott,R.W.(Nwcastle-upon-Tyne,N.)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

    McLaren, Martin

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Errington, Sir Eric

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Stodart, J. A.

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

    Farr, John

    McLean, Neil (Inverness)

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Fell, Anthony

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Finlay, Graeme

    McMaster, Stanley R.

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Wise, A. R.

    Temple, John M.

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton)

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    Walder, David

    Woollam, John

    Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

    Webster, David

    Worsley, Marcus

    Turner, Colin

    Welle, John (Maidstone)

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Vane, w. M. F.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Mr. Ian Fraser and

    Mr. MacArthur.

    NOES

    Abse, Leo

    Hamilton, William (West Fife)

    Neal, Harold

    Ainsley, William

    Hannan, William

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Albu, Austen

    Harper, Joseph

    Noel-Baker, Rt.Hn.Philip(Derby,S,)

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

    Oswald, Thomas

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Hart, Mrs. Judith

    Padley, W. E.

    Awbery, Stan (Bristol Central)

    Hayman, F. H.

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Henderson, Rt.Hn.Arthur(Rwly Regis)

    Parker, John

    Bence, Cyril

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Hill, J. (Midlothian)

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Benson, Sir George

    Hilton, A. V.

    Pentland, Norman

    Blackburn, F.

    Holman, Percy

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Holt, Arthur

    Popplewell, Ernest

    Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W.(Leics, S.W.)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Prentice, R. E.

    Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

    Hoy, James H.

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Bowles, Frank

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Rankin, John

    Bradley, Tom

    Hunter, A. E.

    Redhead, E. C.

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Rhodes, H.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

    Callaghan James

    Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

    Ross, William

    Carmichael, Neil

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Castle, Mrs. Barbara

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Chapman, Donald

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

    Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

    Cliffe, Michael

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Small, William

    Collick, Percy

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Kelley, Richard

    Sorensen, R. W,

    Craddock, George (Bradford, s.)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Crosland, Anthony

    King, Dr. Horace

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Lawson, George

    Steele, Thomas

    Cullen, Mrs. Alice

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Dalyell, Tam

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Stones, William

    Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

    Stross,Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Swain, Thomas

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Lipton, Marcus

    Swingler, Stephen

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Loughlin, Charles

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Deer, George

    Lubbock, Eric

    Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Delargy, Hugh

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

    Dempsey, James

    MacColl, James

    Thornton, Ernest

    Dodds, Norman

    McInnes, James

    Tomney, Frank

    Driberg, Tom

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Wade, Donald

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

    Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

    MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

    Warbey, William

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Manuel, Archie

    Whitlock, William

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Mapp, Charles

    Wilkins, W. A,

    Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

    Mason, Roy

    Williams, D. J. (Neath)

    Fletcher, Eric

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

    Forman, J. C.

    Mellish, R. J.

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Glnsburg, David

    Millan, Bruce

    Winterbottom, R. E.

    Gourlay, Harry

    Milne, Edward

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Greenwood, Anthony

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Woof, Robert

    Grey, Charles

    Moody, A. S.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Morris, John

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

    Mulley, Frederick

    Mr. Charles A. Howell and

    Mr, McCann

    Lady Ganunans: I beg to move, in page 90, line 29, column 2, to leave out "Tottenham" and to insert "Southgate".
    The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson): I understand that it would be for the convenience of the Committee to discuss at the same time the following Amendment in the
    558
    names of the hon. Lady and of the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu), in line 31, column 2, leave out "Southgate" and insert "Tottenham".
    Lady Gammans: That is so, Mr. MacPherson.
    In moving this Amendment I am only asking that the grouping of Borough

    559
    No. 31 shall be on the radial north, south pattern and along the natural lines of communication recommended by the Royal Commission and accepted by the Government in 1961. The logic of following the lines of communication was also pointed out by the Minister in the terms of reference to the town clerks and has been repeatedly emphasised by them in their Reports. But in the case of Boroughs No. 31 and No. 32 an exception has been made with no real explanation.
    In paragraph 14 of the report of all four town clerks, they say that an agreed grouping is a good augury for the future of a new borough. Hornsey has always been in favour of an amalgamation on a north-south basis, while Tottenham, Enfield and Edmonton were in favour of an agreed group in the real sense of the word, certainly as far as their borough councils were concerned.
    The grouping of Hornsey with Southgate and the grouping of Tottenham, Enfield and Edmonton is agreed on by the councils of four of the largest boroughs concerned, and they have a combined population of 413,000, or 77 per cent. of the total.
    It is important to try to visualise what must have passed through the mind of the Town Clerk of Oxford when he presided over the conference at Hornsey Town Hall on 23rd May, 1962. As he states in his report, this area produced a particularly rich crop of alternative and conflicting suggestions. Out of it all, he decided on two principles—not to split Enfield and not to divide the Barnets. Having settled this he was left with six boroughs.
    Naturally, after this discussion about wider groupings, Hornsey thought that the final groupings would still be on the north-south lines which the Minister at that time had suggested. It was astonished to hear that this principle had suddenly been abandoned. But who can doubt that if the four largest of the six borough councils had at that time stressed again their wish for a north-south grouping this town clerk would have accepted it? Who can doubt that if the then Minister had not himself first proposed to split Enfield a different atmosphere would have been created?
    560
    However, it was at this point that the Town Clerk of Oxford went wrong in selecting the east-west alignment for the six boroughs and also in not indicating his line of thought so that that could have been discussed. His report showed that he had a slight doubt, for he referred to the superiority of north-south communications. Anyone not knowing the area, as this town clerk certainly did not, might not have fully appreciated that the communications conditions for a good borough were not being fulfilled by this proposal.
    There are three main reasons why these four borough councils wanted to group on a radial basis—communications, density and community of interest. Communications between Hornsey, Wood Green and Southgate are very good on the north-south line, but from east to west, that is to Tottenham, there are only two roads across the railway which divides the two boroughs, and at peak hours these are almost impossible. Tottenham, Enfield and Edmonton, on the other hand, are strongly linked by north-south main roads, railways and the River Lea, and there are excellent communications between Hornsey, Wood Green and Southgate.
    The second reason for opposition to the proposed Boroughs Nos. 31 and 32 is that Hornsey, Tottenham and Wood Green are three of the five most densely populated boroughs in the county and, according to the review of the development plan, if amalgamated would show an average density of more than 50 persons per acre in 1981, whereas, if our proposal of Hornsey, Southgate and Wood Green were accepted, it would work out at just over 35 persons per acre. In that case, Edmonton, Enfield and Tottenham would be left with just over 36 people to the acre, a much better balanced picture for the future and, I am sure my hon. Friend will agree, with fewer frightening problems ahead for redevelopment.
    The third condition for a good borough has always been and surely must still be community of interest. The development of Hornsey and Tottenham has been on different lines. Hornsey is a dormitory borough with a good deal of commercial interest, as are Southgate and Wood Green, while Tottenham, Enfield and Edmonton have developed from south

    561
    to north forming the Lea Valley industrial area—that is roughly the position and of course there are exceptions. Those are the three main conditions for a good workable borough, and they would be fulfilled if my Amendment were accepted.
    My next point is very important. Hornsey wants to see this new plan for Greater London work and work well, but it will not do so unless the new boroughs start right. No disruption to other parts of Greater London would be caused if my Amendment were accepted. Only groups 31 and 32 would be involved with their six boroughs and only one change, the exchange of Tottenham for Southgate, would have to be made.
    9.15 p.m.
    I should like at this point to pay tribute to the Borough of Edmonton for the initiative it has taken. I also pay tribute to Tottenham Borough Council. They have set out very clearly indeed the case against the Government's proposals, and this is certainly a unique example of cooperation between two boroughs of different political complexions working together to get a good pattern for a good borough.
    I should like the Minister to realise the depth of feeling in my borough against this proposed amalgamation. It is something about which he should know. I know that many other hon. Members have spoken about the same thing, but, like others, I have received literally hundreds of letters about this, and I have seen a petition which was presented to the Mayor of Hornsey. This feeling is very understandable. People in boroughs think about these things. It may be that they do not understand the technical points very clearly, but they have strong feelings about this.
    In Hornsey there has always been a great deal of civic pride, and quite rightly, because it is a borough with a long and honourable history. The letters I have received show a great fear that the good local government which Hornsey has always had will disappear, for the three main reasons which I have mentioned—wrong communications, wrong density, and lack of community of interests.
    I hope, therefore, that my right hon. Friend will consider very carefully the
    562
    arguments which I have tried to place before him before he finally makes up his mind. I assure him that we in Hornsey welcome this Bill as a whole, believing that reform in London government is long overdue. If the right grouping is made, there will be harmony and not discord from the beginning, and much unnecessary friction and many mistakes will be avoided.
    Mr. Austen Albu: I support the Amendment. I do so at the request of the Edmonton Borough Council. Very strong feelings are held about this, particularly because the change which was brought into the arrangement of the boroughs by the town clerk who examined this was in direct contravention of the previous proposal made, first, by the Royal Commission which linked Edmonton with Tottenham, and secondly, by the Government whose original proposal linked Edmonton and Tottenham and added Enfield East and Cheshunt.
    As the hon. Lady the Member for Hornsey (Lady Gammans) said, it is very difficult to understand why the Town Clerk of Oxford should have changed the original proposal and done so against the evidence which was given to him by at least four out of the six boroughs involved in groups No. 31 and No. 32, all of which were in favour of the north-south or radial alignment of the area.
    I hope that the attitude of the Minister towards Boroughs No. 9 and No. 10 will provide us with some encouragement on this matter, because on this crucial question of the direction of communications, and particularly whether communications are radial or circular, I remind the Committee of what the right hon. Gentleman said about the radial communications existing in the Battersea-Wandsworth-Lambeth area. I hope, therefore, that he will in this case consider that the radial communications are an important factor in the grouping of the boroughs. It is clear that Southgate has no wish to be linked with Edmonton. So far as I know, only Wood Green has indicated that it is in favour of an east-west division of the area.
    The hon. Lady has pointed out the terms of reference given to the town clerks and the matters that they were supposed to take into consideration. She

    563
    has already pointed out that practically all the arguments come out in favour of a link up between Tottenham, Edmonton and Enfield, and that the only argument that can be put up against linking up with the whole of Enfield is that it might be regarded as having rather a peculiar area in the north, but that is largely a green belt area, and it does not play a great part in the contribution of population towards the area.
    This whole area is part of the Lea Valley. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Mackie) understands this as well or better than I do. The Lea Valley is a natural community, with associations which go back for a long time. The River Lea itself has a very long history. The route from London to the north, through Shore-ditch, followed the Valley from Roman times, and with the development around London in the last fifty years it has become a natural community—especially linking Tottenham and Edmonton. This group of boroughs on the northern route from London forms a very much older community than other communities on the north side of the Thames.
    For many years these areas have shared many associations, based on communications, trade and industry. These communications include nut only roads but the canal and River Lea, together with the railway development that took place in the last century. They also have common law courts—the Edmonton Petty Sessions, which cover Tottenham and Enfield. They have common employment exchanges, and common National Assistance and National Insurance services, besides many other associations. The same applies to the gas and electricity supplies, which were introduced by the old companies in former times and are now operated by the gas and electricity boards in the area. They even share a local newspaper.
    This association has gone on for many years. I do not need to remind hon. Members that they all share the famous football club on the border of my constituency—Tottenham Hotspur. That is only one example of the many ways in which these boroughs are closely linked.
    These arguments of very close associations—personal association, community association, service association and link-
    564
    age by lines of communication—cannot be used in the case of the suggested amalgamation of Edmonton with Southgate or Tottenham with Hornsey. Southgate was once part of the old Edmonton Hundred, and was largely a rural open space. It was developed as a dormitory suburb much later. It certainly does not have the amount of industrial and urban development that has gone on in Tottenham and Edmonton. It is clear to anybody who looks at the map that from the point of view of lines of communication, the circular linkage or lateral linkage is not nearly as strong as the north-south linkage, either for the amalgamation of Tottenham, Edmonton and Enfield, or, alternatively, Edmonton, Southgate and Wood Green.
    In the linking of the Tottenham, Edmonton and Enfield areas we have two busy railway lines—one the main Cambridge and Hertford line and the other the London suburban line, which splits at Edmonton to link Enfield Town and East Enfield with fast regular services.
    Anybody who looks at the map can see the trunk roads which link us. There is the linkage at the northern end, where there are the historical routes of Bury Street and Church Street, linking Edmonton with Enfield. On the other hand, there are no main road links between the centre of Edmonton and Southgate. It is true that the North Circular Road pushes through the borough, but it is very much off centre, and there are no railway connections.
    Throughout history, the whole pattern of development, of population and community, has followed the north-south line of the Lea Valley. Today the movement of population is still outwards from London and follows the same pattern of movement along the Valley. People move between the boroughs. People living in Edmonton or Tottenham move and work in Tottenham or Edmonton, particularly in some of the major industries such as the furniture industry, which dominates this area, and the light engineering industries. For instance, a large number of people from Edmonton work in Eastern Enfield at the well-known small arms factory. Another important factor is housing development which has followed the same line, and in which there is a

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    close community interest between Tottenham, Edmonton and in East Enfield. Many families have grown up, family movements have taken place between the boroughs over the last fifty years, so that there are many family connections between the areas.
    As was pointed out by the hon. Lady the Member for Hornsey, Tottenham and Edmonton are denseley populated and have sought to develop their housing policy jointly. Particularly in Edmonton there has been a progressive housing and redevelopment policy. But the two areas have been closely linked. There is a Tottenham housing estate in Edmonton and the two boroughs have developed housing estates together at Cheshunt and Potters Bar. The relationship between the boroughs and the question of density of population is closely linked to their housing redevelopment policies and the problems with which they are faced. If one group were as proposed for Borough 31 in the Bill, Tottenham, Wood Green and Hornsey, that would be an extremely densely populated area which would be closed in and would not have the sort of access at the edge of the built-up area which exists for the Edmonton and Enfield areas.
    We in Edmonton have gone a long way towards solving our housing problems. We have not completely solved them by any means because we are waiting for a more friendly Government attitude towards council house building. But we have done a great deal of redevelopment. There is no doubt that anyone who looks at the matter from the local government point of view, from the point of view of community of interest, of density of population, possibility of joint action and so on, would consider that the linkage originally proposed in the Government's White Paper, based as it was on the Report of the Royal Commission, would be reasonable and sensible, No good arguments were brought forward by the town clerk who examined this matter in favour of a change from this north-south linkage to one which has no historical basis whatsoever and is not based on community interest or communications. I hope, therefore, especially in view of what he said about Boroughs Nos. 9 and 10, that the Minister will reconsider this matter.
    9.30 p.m.
    Mr. Colin Turner: I rise to speak as a resident of Enfield for thirty years, a person who has played a great part in the political life of Enfield since the war and as one who can trace his start in public life in Enfield to somewhere in 1940 when I helped to inaugurate the Enfield Spitfire Fund. I therefore speak tonight as someone who has a very great interest in Enfield. I am quite convinced, and will try to illustrate as briefly as I can, that the vast majority of the population of Enfield East, Enfield West, Edmonton and Southgate are behind the Government proposals and fully opposed to the Amendment.
    Who are for the Government's proposals and against this Amendment? We have, first, the Conservative Associations of Enfield, East and Enfield, West, of Edmonton and Southgate. We have on this occasion the Liberal Associations of the three boroughs as well. Even without the aid of the Liberals, in 1959 the Conservative vote at the General Election in the three boroughs, after deducting the estimated number of votes which my right hon. Friend got in the urban district council of Potters Bar, shows the Conservatives in the three boroughs had a majority of 22,311. In Enfield itself in the 1962 borough council elections the Conservatives and Liberals together, who in their election addresses made a great point about opposing the Socialist proposals for an amalgamation which included Tottenham, had an anti-Socialist majority of 6,510, almost a 50 per cent. majority in Enfield alone. In the three boroughs taken together the anti-Socialist vote was 13,770, again almost a 50 per cent. majority.
    Mr. Dodds: What was the anti-Conservative vote?
    Mr. Turner: It was very small taking Conservatives against Socialists. There always has been 100 one way or the other, and on this occasion, if I remember rightly, it was a few hundred without the Liberals, but the Liberals were with us on this occasion.
    Who else opposes this Amendment? We have the Enfield Chamber of Commerce, the Chambers of Commerce in Edmonton and Southgate, the Enfield and District Manufacturers' Association, representing 100 industrial concerns in

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    Enfield, East, Enfield, West and Edmonton. What is more interesting, we have the combined Residents and Ratepayers Association of the three boroughs together totally opposed to this Amendment and all in favour of the Government proposals, and they represent a membership of 12,000. In addition, the Anglican Churches in the Deanery of Enfield, which roughly covers the same area as the Government proposal for the three boroughs, are opposed to the Amendment.
    Outside Enfield, Southgate and Edmonton, we have the Borough Council of Wood Green opposed to the Amendment and we have Tottenham Conservative Association and the local Press. I will quote from the Enfield Gazette of 11th January:
    "The Government has proposed the merger of Enfield with Edmonton and Southgate, a compact area with historic, cultural and social associations but, with an eye to political advantage, the Labour majorities on the Enfield and Edmonton Councils are seeking to get the Bill amended to link up the three boroughs. Yet, with the exception of the borough council and some of the Labour Party's ward organisations, the overwhelming desire in Enfield is to link up with Southgate and Edmonton. If the Government's proposal is carried, Enfield will form an important area in the new borough of Enfield, Southgate and Edmonton. If it is defeated Enfield will become the far outpost of a long, straggling borough whose only common interests will be the fate and fortune of the Spurs."
    I quote from the Palmers Green Gazette of 28th December. The editorial prefaced its remarks by saying that it was in favour of smaller boroughs and not keen on reorganisation at all, but went on:
    "But from the very beginning we have said, and readers have not been critical of the view, that our neighbours in any new set-up should be east and west and have a relationship with the outer suburb similar to that of Southgate. There is everything to be said for the present proposal, precious little for the elongated strip that would result from a merging of Southgate, Wood Green and Hornsey. We think that a vote of Southgate people taken on the alternatives would result overwhelmingly (whatever might be thought about reorganisation as a whole) in favour of Southgate, Edmonton. Enfield merger. We hope the Minister will resist all pressure to the contrary."
    Wood Green Borough Council passed a unanimous resolution in favour of the Government proposals and against the Amendment. Doubtless the hon. Lady the Member for Wood Green (Mrs. Butler) will speak for the council. Therefore, I
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    shall not go into details except to say the there are historic interests between Wood Green and Tottenham as they were linked together until 1888. Similarly, Enfield and Southgate were part of the Edmonton Hundred.
    What are the reasons for all this opopsition to these Amendments? Large parts of the three units of Edmonton, Enfield and Southgate are domitory areas supplying the working forces to the vast industrial area of Eastern Enfield and part of Edmonton The lines of local communication, as the town clerks rightly point out, run east and west and not north and south. One has only to be on any of the roads running from Eastern Enfield and parts of Edmonton at the time the factories close to know——
    Lady Gammans: The hon. Member is talking about his part of Enfield and not about my end of the area. Certainly between Hornsey and Tottenham the lines of communication are north and south and definitely not east and west. There are only two roads east and west and both are very narrow and very congested.
    Mr. Turner: I will deal with my hon. Friend's area in a moment, if I have time.
    I hope that I have shown that I am speaking of the majority of the residents in the boroughs of Enfield, Edmonton and Southgate, and anything which my hon. Friend proposes must affect the interests of these three boroughs, as she admitted. I am talking about Group No. 32, Edmonton, Enfield and Southgate, and there is no doubt that in this case local communications are east and west and not north and south.
    Mr. Albu: It may be so in Enfield but it is certainly not so in Edmonton.
    Mr. Turner: If the hon. Member permits me to continue my argument, I was about to point out that the lines of commuter traffic to London are, of course, north and south. He spoke about the main Cambridge line, but this is on the extremity of the boroughs and serves a very small proportion of them. The middle communication line, running roughly not far from the Great Cambridge Road, has only recently been reopened to traffic. The main interest of the boroughs locally is east and west.
    If hon. Members look at the other main lines of commuter communications

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    they will find that a large part of the population use Enfield, West and Enfield Town, and as for the great Cambridge Road, people use the bus services which take them to the Piccadilly tube line at Oakwood, which is in Southgate. Much use is made of this. There is the other line of communication from Enfield, West and Enfield Town on the line running into Finsbury Park and King's Cross from Enfield Chase and Grange Park. This runs through Southgate. The main line of communication is in the centre of Enfield, East, Enfield, West and Edmonton and parts of Southgate in Green Lanes.
    May I come to the position between Hornsey and Tottenham? I am certain that my right hon. Friend is looking at the map, and he will find that the only main line of communications north and south runs between the boundaries of Hornsey, Tottenham and Wood Green. This is the only main road running north and south linking these boroughs. When my hon. Friend talked about the Great Northern Railway line dividing Hornsey from Tottenham, she has overlooked the fact that a large proportion of her electorate are on the Harringay side of the railway line.
    Lady Gammans: It still remains true that the best communications are from south to north, because they run parallel to the railway and the whole point is getting across the railway. There are only two very narrow roads by which this can be done.
    Mr. Turner: I shall come in a few moments to the practically non-existent communications between Hornsey and Southgate. I will try to illustrate the matter further then. From Ponders End in Eastern Enfield the main line of communication runs right the way through to Cockfosters. Hadley Wood and Cockfosters have no connection or interest whatsoever with Tottenham. They have a close interest with Southgate and Enfield West.
    There is a considerable amount of connection and continuity of interests between Enfield, Southgate and Edmonton. There is the schooling position. There is the sports position and all sorts of social activities. Many social activities that are organised in Enfield are held in various halls in
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    Edmonton or Southgate. There is a complete intermingling of interest. Many people come from Edmonton and Southgate to Enfield to shop. It is a natural transportation centre and it is growing every day, as Wood Green is to the south. These are undoubtedly the centres of communication.
    We have already heard tonight the contention that the Government's proposals give an under-developed grouping to the north in Edmonton, Enfield and Southgate. However, it must be borne in mind that a large proportion of Enfield is green belt. To a lesser extent, the same applies in Southgate. It is green belt and cannot under the present rules and regulations be developed at all. The Government's proposals have given a very even distribution of population. If the Amendments were carried, the population of the new grouping of Enfield, Tottenham and Edmonton would be 97,000 greater than that of the other group. It is in the Enfield area particularly that any extra development by amendment or straightening of the green belt is likely to take place. Therefore, the disparity would grow and not lessen. Therefore, the Government's proposals, giving a difference of about only 11,000 between the two boroughs, are obviously right.
    I think that I have said enough to illustrate that the overwhelming majority of the population of the three boroughs about which I am talking—Enfield, Edmonton and Tottenham—are fully in favour of the Government's proposals and against the Amendments. I am certain that there are all the things that the Minister requires in the present grouping to justify its retention. Communications between Hornsey and Southgate are non-existent except by what amounts to by-roads. The only main road runs on the eastern extremity of the borough of Hornsey. It is the only road of any note leading into Southgate. There are no other main roads. The growing number of roads in the area tend to run East and West. I have seen the problem as I travel from Enfield via Southgate and through Hornsey each day. I know the size of the roads and the fact that they are just not capable of taking the commuter traffic which now goes on to London.
    I ask the Minister to resist these Amendments most strongly. I am certain

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    that, if he does so, he will be acting in the interests of the majority of the population of the three boroughs on whose behalf I speak tonight.
    9.45 p.m.
    Mr. H. Hynd: I find myself somewhat surprised to be supporting almost all the remarks of the hon. Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Turner). I speak as a resident of one of the boroughs concerned and, indeed, I served for a time on the Hornsey Borough Council. I support everything the hon. Member for Woolwich, West said about the communications between Hornsey and Southgate compared with those between Hornsey and Tottenham. There is not much between the two; one bus route runs from Hornsey to Southgate and two from Hornsey to Tottenham.
    The hon. Member called attention to the fact that the railway line does not divide Hornsey from Tottenham. Indeed, the present boundary between Hornsey and Tottenham is a peculiar one. It is a zig-zag line running across the middle of streets. Many people are not sure whether they live in Tottenham or Hornsey. It is a peculiar frontier which is crying out for adjustment.
    The hon. Lady the Member for Hornsey (Lady Gammans), in her enthusiasm, may have unwittingly misrepresented the general opinion of the people of Hornsey. She said that the council was in favour and that, therefore, the people were in favour of the change. She should have made it clear that it was the majority of the council who decided this and that there is a minority opinion against it.
    I hope that the Minister will stick to the proposal to link Hornsey with Tottenham rather than with Southgate He may wonder why there is this competition between Edmonton and Hornsey for the favours of Tottenham. I do not think that I am betraying any secret in saying that there is a certain political element in it. Nevertheless, leaving that aside, I believe that the proposed borough consisting of Hornsey, Wood Green and Tottenham would give a balanced community which would work very well indeed. The communications question is not a real difficulty; it would meet the wishes of the majority of the people there, and I hope that the Amendments will be rejected.
    Mrs. Joyce Butler: am sorry that the hon. Lady the Member for Hornsey (Lady Gammans) and my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu) have moved the Amendments, partly because I think that they are misguided in the view they take and partly because when the Royal Commission made its proposals, and when the Government pronounced on them, there was considerable local opposition which was largely political in its character.
    I am afraid that, if the Amendments were accepted, political controversy and local feeling would be stirred up again in an undesirable way. The hon. Member for Hornsey was critical of the Town Clerk of Oxford and his handling of this matter. But one can assume that the Government's reasons for appointing the four town clerks to do this job were that they recognised the dangers of these local political manoeuvrings and mutterings and they wanted an impartial assessment of the situation.
    The hon. Lady was less than fair to the Town Clerk of Oxford when she said that he had not given any good reasons for the groupings he suggested and which are embodied in the Schedule. I believe that the reasons he put forward were clear. If one accepts the argument at its narrowest political level it is a fact that if one takes the 29 political organisations—including the three main parties and the ratepayers' associations—involved in these groupings, 24 of them accept that the arguments in favour of the groupings in the Schedule are overwhelmingly sound, and of the five organisations that favour a change I believe that three have been rather reluctantly dragged along behind the sense of this Amenment. In every other respect, leaving aside the political considerations, the recommendation of the Town Clerk of Oxford embodied in the Schedule is to be preferred.
    Geographically, the combination of Hornsey, Wood Green and Tottenham in group 31 makes a convenient square-shaped area, and each borough in the group has contiguous common boundaries with the other boroughs in the group without traversing any other. The same is true of group 32. This kind of group is extremely important if we are to harmonise existing borough interests in the new borough.

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    The hon. Lady was rather scathing about the lack of common interest between Hornsey and Tottenham, but they have a common boundary all the way from Manor House to Turnpike Lane, and they have shared the medical officer of health very successfully for very many years. I cannot believe that the lack of interest is as great as she has indicated——
    Lady Gammans: My idea of community interest is not so much the sharing of a medical officer of health but community of interest among people living the same kind of lives. As I tried to point out, the two boroughs are really very different in that respect.
    Mrs. Butler: I defy anybody walking from one side to the other of Green Lane to know whether they are in Hornsey or Tottenham. Both sides have exactly the same kind of people, the same kind of roads, and everything similar.
    The point of the town clerk's recommendations was that Borough No. 31 has the acknowledged outstanding service centre in North London, with its central axis at Wood Green. Similarly, Borough No. 32 has the major service centre at Enfield. Both have civic centres, and no other combination that one can think of could produce a result in any way comparable with that. The town clerks' report rightly stressed the overriding importance of this consideration of the administrative centre.
    If we are to break up the existing pattern, and create much larger borough units with people even further away from the town halls than they now are, the comprehensiveness of the centre is more important for the efficiency of the new borough organisation—and for the convenience of the ratepayers who have to travel to the town hall—than almost anything else. It is quite a fallacy to suggest that the organisation of the boroughs along Parliamentary lines makes a more viable unit than the kind of grouping that now appears in Boroughs Nos. 31 and 32.
    Communications have been mentioned in great detail, but what was so interesting was that the hon. Lady seemed to be thinking almost exclusively in terms of road communications, without reference to what I believe to be the very much
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    more important public transport communications.
    Probably the majority of people who go to the centres of these boroughs, to the town halls, have to use public transport. If we consider the links by bus between Hornsey and Tottenham, there are links at Finsbury Park and Manor House, links by the 171 bus route from Salisbury Hotel, links from the Crouch End part of Hornsey by the 41 bus and from the Alexandra Park end of Hornsey by the 233 bus to Northumberland Park. The Piccadilly tube links Turnpike Lane, which is common between Tottenham and Wood Green and, to some extent, Hornsey, with Wood Green and Bounds Green, which links again with Muswell Hill and Hornsey. These are all east-west links of the greatest importance.
    The hon. Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Turner) has also dealt with the advantages of the east-west links in the Enfield part of the area. This is obviously the case, because reference has been made to the historical position of the Lea Valley. It is an historical fact, which comes almost up to present times, that the Lea Valley was frequently flooded and people seeking to go along the old Lea Valley route had to come up quickly on to the high ground when the area became flooded; so that, all the way along the Lea Valley, the routes up to the high ground which people took are historical routes. These are the lines which the buses and communications between east and west follow today. Public transport is by far the most important aspect of communications.
    The hon. Member has referred to the population basis of the suggested boroughs and of the boroughs as they would appear under the Amendments. He has pointed out that there would be a difference of 97,000 in population between Boroughs Nos. 31 and 32 if the Amendments were accepted.
    The financial implications of the Amendments are probably the most serious. If accepted, the Amendments would create two boroughs with a difference of £8 million in rateable value and a difference in industrial rateable value of 40 per cent. between the two boroughs on the 1962 figures, with the certainty of a much bigger difference on the 1963 figures which might even be in the nature of 60 per cent. or more. This is because

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    the Amendments would take out from Borough No. 31 a large part of the industry and, therefore, of the industrial rateable value.
    The question of density has also been raised. When talking about the high density of Borough No. 31, it is important to realise that it is a comparatively low density compared with the London area as a whole; and we are considering these boroughs in the context of a new Greater London area. I suspect that when the lower density of Borough No. 32 is mentioned, it is with an eye on the green belt, which, I hope we would all agree, should not be considered as a possible area for housing purposes.
    Moreover, I draw the Committee's attention to the fact that only yesterday, in Committee upstairs, the Minister referred to the fact that he expected the London boroughs to prepare a programme of their housing needs and to
    "work out how many of the needs they can satisfy by building inside their boroughs, how much of their programme they can satisfy by building outside the boroughs but within Greater London and how much of their programme they can satisfy by overspill agreements through other boroughs' building but within Greater London."
    He went on to say:
    "… we must recognise that, if London boroughs will not co-operate with each other to solve the housing problem of the London boroughs with the greatest housing need, they are bound to find that the Greater London Council is forced to seek building land inside their area. In other words, co-operation between boroughs is the way to minimise, if London boroughs wish to minimise, the work of the Greater London Council within the Greater London Area."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee F, 19th February, 1963; c. 269.]
    In other words, in the new set-up under the Bill, we shall be forced to co-operate with each other, and Boroughs Nos. 31 and 32 will be forced to co-operate with each other to solve their mutual housing problems.
    The final point I want to make is that we have very little time in which to weld these new groupings into viable boroughs. The Government have presented us with this position which we have to accept. We have to accept changes and we have to get to work very quickly to make them effective. Considerable work has already been done
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    in both these groupings by the town clerks and representatives of the boroughs to work out proposals, and to deal with the problems which will be involved. It would be a very serious setback to the possibility of evolving satisfactory new boroughs if a change were to be made now, and for this and other reasons which have been put forward I hope that the Government will resist these Amendments and maintain the groupings as proposed in the Schedule.
    Mr. John Mackie: I rise to support these two Amendments. I am of course more particularly interested in the second one concerning Borough No. 32, but I must also support the first one, because I cannot possibly leave Southgate hanging in mid-air and therefore we must put it into Borough No. 31.
    There has been a considerable amount of talk about lines of communication and the difficulties involved, but there seems to be as much difficulty over party lines as there is with the lines of communication. Like the hon. Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Turner) I have had considerable advice given to me. In fact my post has been fairly full during the last month, like that of most hon. Members from the six boroughs, and it is very difficult to sort it out. The hon. Member for Woolwich, West used a tremendous number of figures to prove his point from various bodies which have written to him in support of and against the Amendment, the majority, he said, being against it.
    I know that ratepayers' associations and chambers of commerce are important bodies and the manufacturers' association in Enfield is also an important body, but I would point out that very few of the members live in Enfield or Edmonton for that matter. I have had a communication from the Conservative Association but what its views are I am not quite sure. Nevertheless, it is on the whole a minority in that area. The point that I want to make about the associations is that none of them is an elected body and that the bodies that one must take cognisance of are the elected bodies in the boroughs. Most of the elected bodies in these areas are in favour of these two Amendments.
    I should have thought that the question of the grouping of these three boroughs

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    had been very well put by the hon. Lady the Member for Hornsey (Lady Gammans), who proposed the Amendment, and my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu). I do not want to re-emphasise all the points that have been made as time is getting on. I think that the communications point is a very strong one indeed. If the hon. Member for Woolwich, West ever motors up and down Hertford road between 7 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the morning and 4 oclock and 6 oclock at night, he will see the way the traffic flows and that it does not flow across anything like to the extent that it flows up and down. Most of the traffic is local traffic and there is no question about which way it goes. It is most important that we should pay attention to these lines of communication.
    Supporting the Amendment, I do not want to go back to the original plan for dividing Enfield into two. I think that was a bad plan. I would not like to begrudge the right hon. Gentleman an area where he has got a lot of votes, but I feel that it should be kept in and left as it is. There is the question of Hadley Wood and Cockfosters, but there is not a big population in that area and I do not think it would make too unbalanced a borough.
    I would emphasise the question of the link up which there is in housing and practically everything else, including the football club, between these boroughs. Tottenham has a burial ground in Enfield, and Edmonton has a housing scheme in Enfield. The whole area is linked up through all these interests, and there is quite a conurbation of industries running down the Lea Valley. So I hope that the Minister will give careful consideration to these points to have London Borough No. 32 made up of the three boroughs, Tottenham, Enfield and Edmonton.
    Sir K. Joseph: I must confess that as we come to the end of this day it is a real relief to find that not the entire population of the area concerned seems to be against this particular proposal in the Bill. Up to now I have had to make a case for a particular proposal by the Government against fairly consistent opposition in the area concerned, but here I find, to my relief, that, though party lines are crossed, there is evidently a fairly large weight of public opinion
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    behind this particular borough grouping which the Government propose.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey (Lady Gammans) in a very clear speech was supported by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu), who was very quickly challenged by what I think was the formidable speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Turner), and we quickly realised how right the town clerks were in saying that this particular area throws up a rich crop of alternative ways of treatment. We have here in fact six existing boroughs which can fairly easily and with no implications for their neighbours be organised either laterally or radially. Each alternative has attracted strong support.
    I think the main themes of my hon. Friends who proposed the Amendment, supported by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Edmonton and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Mackie), really are on the strength of the communications radially; the lack of affinities, as my hon. Friend claims, between the eastern and the western boroughs; and the differential density. On the other hand, my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd), speaking in this case as a resident and as an ex-councillor, and the hon. Lady the Member for Wood Green (Mrs. Butler) traversed these arguments in very great detail. I think I am only called upon to sum up, and give the weight of the Government's opinion on these three matters.
    First of all, communications. It is quite true that last week, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Edmonton has acutely observed, I did place considerable emphasis on the importance of following communications—all other things being equal; but, as he will have observed from the conclusion of the debate on Wandsworth, I did in the end recognise that the other considerations were not equal, and that may be even in that case the area deserved a second look and even a third look, because the strength of the communications is not the only let alone the conclusive factor. And strong though the radial communications are here, running through the eastern and western lines of the boroughs, as my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West pointed out,

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    the lateral communications are by no means negligible. They support a considerable flow of life to and from the service centres which are already thriving in Enfield and Wood Green.
    The Government really cannot accept the argument on affinity. We all know and can point to many local government areas in this country, some in London, where there is the most striking contrast in standards of living and all sorts of conditions between one part of the area and another, and not always to the harm of the local inhabitants or local vitality. I cannot accept that the fact that there appears to be some difference in various ways between this part and that part of a proposed area is a reason for keeping them separate.
    My hon. Friend laid considerable stress on her density argument. It is historically true that the inner ring was more densely developed as London grew outwards and that the outer ring is not so densely developed. This is one of the factors—but only one of them—which the town clerks were asked to bear in mind. As the hon. Lady the Member for Wood Green—it pains me much to have to lean on arguments from the other side of the Committee—pointed out, and as I am sure my hon. Friend will recognise, we are not expecting individual London boroughs to be totally self-sufficient in finding their own land. Indeed, in many boroughs it would be absolutely impossible for them to be self-sufficient. So, though this is a factor, it is only one of the factors to be considered.
    This leads me to stress the strength of the town clerks' recommendation, reached after consideration of the evidence, and reached by an impartial man called in to assess the merits. We must remember, as several hon. Members have recognised, that the town clerks' recommendation in the Bill avoids yet another split. Hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have been urging on the Government the importance, wherever
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    possible, of keeping local authority units together and not splitting or severing them.
    I must also emphasise that the borough grouping recommended by the town clerks and included in the Schedule bases two borough groups each on a thriving and successful service centre—Enfield and Wood Green, centres which have shown by their vitality that they can be the focus of successful communities.
    I am sure the Committee will realise, that no possible solution will please everyone. The town clerks' recommendations are not, of course, sacrosanct, but the Government, having called them in, and it being recognised, I think, that there is some value in the Government having an outside opinion on which to base this very important Schedule, there is much virtue in accepting their recommendations unless, quite clearly, any particular recommendation is wrong.
    I think my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey will recognise that this debate shows that the case against this recommendation in the Bill has not been clearly and convincingly made. Where arguments have been adduced, and some of them have been strong arguments, they have been strongly traversed and arguments against them have been made. I dislike very much disappointing my hon. Friend. I know the strength of opinion on both sides of this argument. I am prepared to recognise that either group could work. But I believe on balance, both because of the argument in the town clerks' recommendation and beo cause of the balance of arguments represented in the voluminous papers that have reached me and have been reproduced in the debate, that the recommendation made by the town clerks and included in the Bill is right.
    I hope that my hon. Friend will not press the Amendment, but if it is pressed I hope that the Committee will reject it.
    Amendment negatived.
    Question proposed, That this be the First Schedule to the Bill.
    10.15 p.m.
    Mr. M. Stewart: We find ourselves with a little longer time to discuss this main Question than we had expected. We have completed Part I of the Schedule which sets out the boundaries and the comparative representation of the boroughs, and owing to the working of the Guillotine we have also passed Part II of the Schedule which is really no more than a series of footnotes to Part I describing where certain boundaries are. On Part III of the Schedule, I do not think that the most determined orator could find a good deal to say. It is concerned with subsequent alterations of ward boundaries—wards that have not yet been defined in boroughs that have not yet come into existence.
    We may safely conclude that, whatever disagreements there are among us about the way in which these boroughs should come into existence, and whether warding arrangements which may subsequently be made under an earlier provision will prove to be good arrangements or not, we should be prepared to say that if the boroughs come into existence, and if they are divided into wards anyhow, we would all agree that if subsequently they want to alter the boundaries of their wards, Part III of the Schedule will allow them to do it.
    We are thus left with the question of whether the policy and ideas which the Schedule embodies are good ones. On that issue, I want to divide what I have to say into three sections. First, the Schedule embodies the idea that the boundary of the Greater London area should be on a particular line and neither further out nor further in. So firmly does the Schedule embody that idea that on the question of the actual boundary of the area as a whole the Minister has proved completely inflexible throughout. The only shadow of a concession was that possibly later on his hon. Friends might be able to make a case that it should be altered subsequently under Clause 6.
    Sir K. Joseph: The hon. Gentleman is normally scrupulously fair. I thought that it was considerably more than a shadow of hope which I held out.
    Mr. Stewart: I am content to abide by the judgment of the Minister's hon. Friends. I do not think that they regarded it as more than the shadow of a shadow.
    Every time attempts have been made to alter this Schedule in a way that would alter the boundary of the area itself, the Minister's reply has been that it was drawn up on a particular principle and that that principle was that as long as there was a continuous built-up area, there, in his view, was Greater London, and that all areas which were, in his view, built-up areas from the centre outward were Greater London and could not be permitted to get out of the Schedule and out of the Bill.
    On that assumption, what is Greater London? This is not the first time that this Committee and the House have considered this question. The hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty) said that the Royal Commission was given certain areas, and he added, "I do not know who gave it those areas". I am afraid that he himself is one of those who gave it those areas. The original Royal Commission area—the original whole area that was to be included in the area—had its origin in the Fifth Schedule of the Local Government Act, 1958, for the Second Reading of which the hon. and learned Gentleman voted along with his party and against which we voted.
    I have much sympathy with hon. Members opposite who have wished at this late stage to alter the boundary of the Greater London area, but they prepared the rod for their own backs when they voted for the 1958 Act. But at least it might be said that the essence of the 1958 Act was that it gave powers to commissions to survey local government boundaries in most of England and Wales, but deliberately excluded what it called the metropolitan area. It was clear at that stage that the Government regarded a certain area as the metropolitan area.
    The significant thing is that the Schedule departs from the Government's original intention in a number of material particulars. Where hon. Members opposite have a real grievance is that the Government have departed from the original 1958 idea in some cases but not in others, and that there

    583
    is no logic by which the Government can justify some of the changes they have made and not others.
    It is made clear from a study of the map which the Minister has been good enough to supply to members of the Standing Committee dealing with the Bill. One is able to see on that map where the continuous built-up area is and where it is not. One is bound to see that there is no logic and no justification by which it can be insisted that Coulsdon is inside Greater London, but Banstead and Caterham outside it. The same logic and argument which would exclude the one would exclude the other, and that which would include the one would include the other.
    One can see that the lines of continuous built-up area proceed a certain distance. At some points they are so tenuous that one might almost say that they stop, but if one says that they stop because they are so tenuous, that interpretation would get Coulsdon out. If, on the other hand, one says that, tenuous as they are, they are still there, that would bring Caterham and Banstead in. Similarly, there is no logic by which one can insist, against the wishes of the inhabitants, on keeping north Epsom and Ewell in the Greater London area when one excludes Staines, Sunbury, Walton and Weybridge. There, still more strikingly, is the continuous built-up area.
    We must excuse the Minister. It was his predecessor who, in a spendthrift fashion from the Conservative Party point of view, threw these bits of Surrey out of the Greater London area. When the present Minister came to his task, he was faced with the alarming fact that what had appeared at first sight to be a "dead cert" Conservative majority on the future Greater London Council was endangered by the number of Conservative areas which his predecessor had allowed to be excluded from the Bill.
    Sir K. Joseph: The hon. Member began by saying that the Government had made no concessions, but he is now saying that these concessions were made by my predecessor.
    Mr. Stewart: The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well what I am talking about. When I said that no concessions were made, I was referring to our debates in Standing Committee and the Com-
    584
    mittee of the whole House on the Schedule. While the Government were still struggling over two or three drafts of the Bill, the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor handed away areas which at one time the Government thought of putting in the Greater London area. That is why the Minister is not in a position to make any further concessions now, and that is what hon. Members from Surrey will have to explain to their constituents.
    May I tell hon. Members who are interested in the Surrey areas that there is one way in which, even at this late stage, they might get the Minister to change his mind? If they persuaded the majority of the inhabitants of these areas to vote Labour in future, the Minister would seriously consider whether those areas ought not to be excluded from Greater London. But short of that I can see no hope for them.
    Mr. Lubbock: If the hon. Gentleman's argument is followed to its logical conclusion, I ought to have got what I wanted in Orpington.
    Mr. Stewart: I think that the Party opposite has great hopes for Orpington, and I must leave the hon. Gentleman to fight that one out.
    My serious point is that there is no logic which justifies the yielding of the Government, before this Bill was prepared, on certain areas which it was clear right back in 1958 were, in the Government's view, metropolitan. There is no logic whereby that flexibility can be justified, in view of the granite-like attitude of the Minister throughout the debates of this Schedule. We cannot say that in so far as the Schedule defines Greater London as a whole the boundary is logical or satisfactory.
    Now as to the next aspect of the Schedule, its division of Greater London into particular boroughs. I shall say only a word or two about this because, after all, this is what we have been talking about since half-past three this afternoon, and over the same time last week. I merely make this comment. The Minister seems to have a gift for adopting on the difficult areas those solutions which are likely to annoy the greatest number of hon. Members of this House who know the areas.
    Hon. Members representing East Ham, West Ham, Barking, Dagenham

    585
    and Romford all made suggestions about how that particular area should be divided into boroughs. It was apparent that there were several several different solutions. It was also apparent that the one in the Bill succeeded in uniting in hostility against it a considerable volume of opinion in all the boroughs concerned, yet that was the one to which the Minister stuck.
    The same was true about Paddington, Wembley, and Willesden. Different solutions were offered from the one that was in the Bill, but the one that the Minister stuck to was the one that united, as far as one could judge, the maximum opposition to it.
    In the Kentish part of the Bill, again there were differences of opinion as to exactly what alterations ought to be made. But that the provisions of the Bill itself as to the Kentish area were heartily unpopular on both sides of the Committee, and in the Kentish area of Greater London, was not in doubt. Here again, the Minister remained inflexible. At one point only did he say that he would look again at something, and that was over a matter affecting the boroughs of Wandsworth, Lambeth and Battersea. I will hazard this guess, that when the Minister comes to test the opinion of those three boroughs he will find that this was almost the one case where the three boroughs concerned wanted what was in the Bill, yet this was the point at which he said he might consider an alteration.
    The Minister seems to have a gift for doing what people do not want. I mentioned before the Calvinist theology that underlines this Schedule. First, the doctrine that whatever a person's merits he is probably damned before the thing begins, secondly, the doctrine that the more unpleasant a thing is to everybody concerned, the more likely it is to be right; thirdly, and the most important aspect, this enshrining of the idea that it is a good thing in metropolitan government to divide the whole of Greater London into boroughs of this approximate size.
    As we proceeded with the arguments on this Bill, both here and in Standing Committee, we heard more and more of the supposed virtues of boroughs of this size in the metropolitan area. We were told that they would be virile and
    586
    viable, and that they would rush forward eagerly to render all the services. I am afraid that sometimes a rather arrogant attitude is adopted which seems to assume that everybody who is anybody and who has studied local government at all knows that wise government is right for Greater London, and it is only a few parochial stick-in-the-muds who disagree. There is not the slightest evidence for that view.
    10.30 p.m.
    When we come to test it out, what does it mean? We are told that this idea is good, because having cut Greater London up into these virile, viable boroughs, we shall have on top a Greater London Council which will settle the strategic problems. What are these strategic problems? There is traffic, the real key to which lies in the resolution of the Government to spend enough money on the roads, and without that none of this means anything at all for the solution of the metropolitan traffic problem. The other part of the solution lies in the population not of Greater London but of the south-east region as a whole. This reorganising of the government of Greater London has only a minimal influence on the traffic problem. So we need not consider that general strategic argument.
    The other great strategic problems are planning and housing. It has emerged during the discussions that we have had in Standing Committee on the Bill that if planning and housing are to be handled properly, these boroughs cannot be independent. Planning and housing have got to be functions both of the Greater London Council and of the boroughs. The other thing that we have discovered in Standing Committee is that in the end the division of power in planning and housing between the Greater London Council and the boroughs is so complicated that we cannot be told now exactly what it will be, but that we shall learn it later on from Ministerial order and regulation. That is the framework of Ministerial control in which these new boroughs, burgeoning with life, are to be required to function.
    With all this emphasis on planning and traffic, the human services time and time again have been lost sight of. We have been told that it is a good thing to divide London into boroughs like this because, are there not county boroughs in the

    587
    provinces of about this size doing very well? The Minister will find the answer to that argument partly in the Government's own White Paper and partly in evidence tendered by the group from the London School of Economics to the Royal Commission, that a provincial county borough and an area of the same population carved out of the Metropolis are not the same.
    The point at the moment is that some of the human services are rendered admirably in the Metropolis by authorities of county size, the size of the counties of London, or the County of Middlesex or the County of Surrey. The fact that they are that size is a great advantage in their administration. One cannot get that advantage very often in the provinces where the population is not so thick on the ground, because to get that size of population one would need an unmanageably large area. In the Metropolis we can get within an area that is manageable on the map a population large enough to get the advantages and the flexibility which come when there is a really large authority.
    It is that advantage that is thrown away by the division of Greater London into what are, in the end, these artificial units, the unsatisfactory nature of which is brought home to us every time the Minister has to tell us that in order to deal with education, the children's services, the health services and so on, they must make joint arrangements one with another to tear the thing up and then to stitch it together again.
    It is because this Schedule is unsatisfactory in the principle, or lack of principle, on which the boundary of Greater London itself is drawn, maladroit in its handling of inter-borough disputes and based on a wrong conception of metropolitan government, that we believe that it should not stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. Doughty: The time is short and I propose to speak quickly and briefly, but there are two remarks that I cannot let pass. These areas were put in in 1958, in respect of the Greater London legislation, but we do not know who it was who thought of the original outside idea, and we are still wondering. I assure hon. Members that long before that came to pass, years before,
    588
    I was badgering the then Minister of Housing and Local Government on the subject. I have a file on the matter, I should not like to say how thick it is, going back six or seven years. So the matter has not been overlooked or allowed to go by default by me or by any hon. Members who represent Surrey constituencies.
    In reply to what was said by the Minister when dealing with an Amendment which I moved earlier, I can assure him that I have been at his disposal and at the disposal of previous Ministers for discussions on this matter at any time convenient to them. I do not know why some of these areas were taken out arbitrarily by the previous Minister. But I ask my right hon. Friend, even at this late stage, to take another look at some of peripheral areas to see whether something can be done to improve the outer boundary of Greater London. There are a great number of new boroughs, and one should realise that in only a few cases have complaints been made and Amendments moved. It would be proper to say that in the majority of cases the modifications are approved. But there are a number of cases which require further investigation, and I think that it is unfortunate that there should be such cases in this Schedule.
    Mr. A. Lewis: I oppose the acceptance of this Schedule. Anyone who has listened to the debate will have been struck by the fact that the Minister has been unrelenting in his intention to ensure that the provisions drawn up by the previous Minister go through, irrespective of any arguments which may be advanced against them. The Committee has been treated in a shabby manner by reason of the fact that all through the discussions the Minister who was responsible for the Bill originally has not even put his nose into the Chamber.
    We find the same thing happening with regard to the former Minister of Defence. Since he took over his responsibilities for "Schweppervescence" he has never attended the House——
    Mr. M. Stewart: Would not my hon. Friend agree that if all the former Ministers of Defence attended the debates——
    The Chairman: Order. I hope that the hon. Member will not go into a debate on defence. That would be out of order.
    Mr. Lewis: I was trying to point out, Sir William, that one can get excited over things like "Schweppervescence". I agree that it is not in the Schedule and so I will not go into that matter in detail.
    The former Minister ought to have been present to listen to some of the complaints which have been voiced. We have been told by the present Minister that he was handed the baby, and it is a pretty ugly baby. This is nothing more than political trickery and gerrymandering on the part of the Government, as can be seen if one examines the list of proposed boroughs impartially on their political complexions and judges the arguments used by the Minister when answering the various points which have been raised. When it suited the right hon. Gentlemen, he used the arguments of the Royal Commission. When he wanted to show that an hon. Member was wrong, he said that the Royal Commission was against the hon. Member. He had it both ways.
    Sir K. Joseph: I do not remember quoting the Royal Commission in argument on the Schedule.
    Mr. Lewis: If the Minister reads through some of the arguments used, he will find that he said that the Government have stuck to the Royal Commission's recommendations in certain of these proposals.
    Mr. Lubbock: The Minister used the Royal Commission in support of his argument against the creation of a central borough.
    Mr. Lewis: I do not want to keep giving way, because time is short. We have not yet had a sufficient explanation why the Minister is suggesting in the Bill that there should be four Greater London councillors and ultimately four Members of Parliament for an area such as the City of London, the City of Westminster, Paddington, and St. Marylebone. The City of London, with 3,000 electors, will have a Member of Parliament. The total population of this area is only 269,000. Yet, as my hon. Friends the Members for Bethnal Green (Mr. Holman) and Stepney (Mr. W. Edwards) pointed out, they repre-
    590
    sent an area with a total population of 205,000 but are being allocated only two Greater London councillors. Each councillor in Borough No. I will represent about 67,000 people, whereas each councillor in Borough No. 5—Bethnal Green, Poplar and Stepney—will represent about 102,000 people. There is an argument for Borough No. 5 having an additional councillor. Each councillor would then represent about 68,000 people.
    The ultimate objective at the back of all this is two-fold. The first is to kill the London County Council, because the Tory Party has for the last 30 years been unable to win at the ballot box and get control of the L.C.C. The second is to smash up the political control in the various boroughs, as far as practicable, and ultimately to try to cut into the Labour-controlled Parliamentary seats.
    The Minister need not think that this will come off. He will find that the people of London will not fall for this. The people of London will still return the Labour councillors and the Tories will regret the day that they introduced the Schedule and the Bill.
    Mr. Cooper: We have to put up with a lot of nonsense from the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. A. Lewis). He should be sufficiently realistic to look at the various boroughs proposed in the Schedule and relate them to the political realities of 1963. It seems to me that the Labour Party will lose nothing whatever by this proposal. The hon. Member must be honest, too. We have listened to his protestations about West Ham joining in with East Ham. Why does he not be honest and tell the Committee that for years East Ham and West Ham have not got on well together? They do not want to get on together now.
    Mr. A. Lewis: That is not true.
    Mr. Cooper: I shall not give way. In reply to East Ham, which says that it is more natural for it to be joined with Barking, I say "rubbish." A river separates the two. East Ham and West Ham are joined together and the only separation is that one is on one side of the street and one is on the other.
    The hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) made a poor speech in opposition to the Schedule He is, in fact, trying to perpetuate an anachronistic London County Council which, in 1963, is

    591
    irrelevant and incompetent to manage the affairs of this great London area. Why is the Labour Party always opposed to any change? Where is the great radical reforming zeal we were told was the motivating power of the Labour Party? The plain truth is that hon. Members opposite are too out of date and their party is too fuddy-duddy in terms of what is needed in 1963.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Cooper: I will not give way.
    Mr. M. Stewart rose—
    Mr. Cooper: The hon. Member for Fulham is to speak in my constituency on 4th March. He will have his chance then.
    Mr. Stewart: The hon. Member is asking rhetorical questions and should stay for an answer. Since he is talking about radical reforming power, will he join my hon. Friends in trying to reform the most antiquated part of all this—the City of London—otherwise everything he has been saying is humbug?
    Mr. Cooper: I am not going to talk about the City of London because that is not germane to the argument I am making. The L.C.C. is too big, too impersonal and not competent to look after the affairs of this great City in which we live.
    Mr. A. Lewis: The Government are making it bigger.
    Mr. Cooper: Its population will be about right for the proper functioning of any area. We in the Conservative Party believe that local government should be local and that the people living in an area should have some knowledge of the councillors who represent them and the aldermen who look after them. In the great City——
    Mr. M. Stewart: City?
    10.45 p.m.
    Mr. Cooper: In the great County of London that is not so. The Bill before us, and particularly the Schedule we are considering, is one of the most important pieces of legislation.
    Mr. A. Lewis: Is that why it has been guillotined?
    Mr. Cooper: It is a great piece of legislation and it deserves the credit and support of all hon. Members.
    Mr. Lewis: So the Government introduce the Guillotine.
    Mr. Cooper: I wish the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. A. Lewis) would stop that nonsense of talking about the Guillotine. We have today, on six Divisions, wasted one-and-a-half hours which could have been used to debate this matter.
    Mr. Lewis: How else can we record our opposition to it?
    Sir K. Joseph: I think that I should say a few sober things to reduce the atmosphere which has been heightened by the buoyant vigour of my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper). I do not like disagreeing with my hon. Friend but I must confess that I had intended to begin by paying a mild compliment to the hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) who seems able to reproduce his Second Reading speech at any length; slightly longer when necessary, cutting it off according to necessity at almost any point and fitting it to almost any occasion. Perhaps I may pay a tribute to the hon. Member for Fulham by using the adjectives "vigour, vitality and viability" in regard to his Second Reading speech—the same qualities we find in the London boroughs.
    We are now addressing ourselves to Schedule 1 of the Bill and, as the hon. Member for Fulham said, Part III of the Schedule deals with the subsequent alteration of ward boundaries and the possibility of varying the number of wards, councillors to each ward and the total number of councillors on the borough councils. I hope that the Committee will allow me to refer back to the first sitting, on 23rd January, when we discussed the size of the new borough councils.
    There was a vigorous argument at that stage on the maximum number of 60 councillors provided in the Bill. I undertook, after some vigorous exchange of views, to consult the relevant local authority associations to take their advice whether the Government are right in selecting 60 councillors and 10 aldermen as the maximum or whether the views of hon. Members who thought that that was too small a number should be met by an amendment of the Bill. Because the boroughs are anxious

    593
    to get on with their warding, and because we do not want to have to invoke Part III of the Schedule too soon after the Bill is enacted. I hope that the Committee will allow me to report back at this stage the result of my consultation with the associations, I think that it will be of service if we get this point clear.
    I have consulted three associations, but principally, I must confess, the Association of Municipal Corporations and the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee. They are the associations that contain, in the Joint Committee, the metropolitan boroughs, and, in the A.M.C., the boroughs of a size comparable with the London boroughs we are creating. I have also consulted the Urban District Councils Association because, of course, some of its members are in the Greater London area but, without any disrespect to the Association, it does not, on the whole, speak for the size of local authority with which we are here dealing.
    I have had a categoric answer from the Association of Municipal Corporations that it is quite satisfied with the council size of 60 councillors and 10 aldermen, and it does not suggest that there is any need for a change. I have had an answer from the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee which is categoric for the moment. The Joint Committee has asked me to say that it considers that the figure of 60 should remain in the Bill, but it qualifies that to the extent that it thinks that
    "If, after a period of experience of working with a body of 70"—
    that is, 60 councillors and 10 aldermen:
    "a borough council finds that number insufficient to enable it to carry out its functions satisfactorily, it should be permitted to apply to the Minister for, and the Minister should be permitted to allow, an increase in the number of councillors for that borough."
    On behalf of the Government, I have to take a view of the position that now exists.
    I still adhere to the opinion I expressed at an earlier stage that 60 is a viable number, with the 10 aldermen. I am supported categorically by the A.M.C., and supported for the moment—that is, on the present experience—by the Metropolitan Boroughs Standing Joint Committee, though I have read out the Joint Committee's qualification that it thinks there might need to be a review in due
    594
    course. I therefore suggest to the Committee that I am now entitled not to come back with an Amendment to the figure in the Bill. I think that certainty is now important, and I should like to be able to tell the present boroughs—which, I hope, are in most cases co-operating in joint committees—that they can rely on the figures in the Bill not being altered.
    I hope that the Committee will not think that I have behaved at all cavalierly in bringing this matter forward at this stage, and I will, of course, give the hon. Member for Fulham an opportunity to comment. Perhaps he will allow me to communicate with him personally. If he has anything to say, and if there is anything as a result of any communication, I will report to the Standing Committee; otherwise, I propose to inform the boroughs that they may go ahead on that assumption.
    To come back to the major theme of of the debate, I have been mocked because there have been no concessions on the part of the Government; but that is because we have been arguing today on facts. I should like to pay a tribute to those champions, both last week and this week, of local feelings and local sentiment, who have so vigorously fought for what they regard as the proper groupings of the boroughs. I should like to record the vigorous fight that has been put up by hon. Members on both sides. In particular, I should like to pay a tribute to my hon. Friends who have fought so hard to take some of their constituents out of Greater London. I know that it is very disappointing for them—and I refer particularly to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty)—to accept defeat in this matter, for they have fought vigorously, both in trying to persuade me that the Government are wrong and in debate in the Chamber.
    I think that it was both generous and kind of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East, after the considerable dispute there has been between us—because of the strength of his opinions—to say, as I confess I had intended to say, that although we have spent two whole days on a very full Notice Paper discussing Amendments to the borough groups, it still remains true that at least half of the new groups had no substantial Amendments proposed

    595
    about them at all. The Government, after the fairly severe criticisms of some of the groupings that have been made during the two days of our debate, ought to remind the Committee of that fact.
    We have now finished our debate on the Schedule. The whole Committee would, I think, wish to hope that the boroughs that will be associated together should now, where they have not already started, get their joint committees working and invite the counties' representatives, as, I hope, the counties will be willing to co-operate, to serve on the joint committees with them. We all recognise the great deal of work that has to be done during the transitional period to get the main purposes of the Bill achieved. I am sure that any vestigial remaining bitterness that there may be in some of the boroughs will now be forgotten.
    Mr. Pavitt: No.
    Sir K. Joseph: We can hope that it will be forgotten in the traditional local government habit of getting down to the job in hand when views have been ventilated. The hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) shakes his head. I am sure that he underestimates the devotion to duty of officials and members of local government, who, recognising that the Bill is about service to the public will not allow arguments which have taken place to stand in the way of the service which, they know, it is their duty to give to the public.
    At this stage, no principles remain to be discussed. The Government have had the difficult task of trying to explain to the Committee why, in certain groupings, they consider it right, for the benefit of the citizens of London, to go against strong local public opinion. I repeat that no Government do this lightly. It has been an invidious job for me to have to recommend the Committee in that sense.
    On the other hand, I think that more and more the people of London are recognising that if we are to make way
    against the problems of the twentieth century, we need a twentieth century organisation and not a nineteenth century organisation which—and here I part company from my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South—devoted as has been the service rendered by the public officials and members concerned of both the London County Council and of the county councils with Metropolitan fringes —simply cannot cope with the problems of today.
    Indeed, we on this side are sometimes accused of wishing to see the end of the London County Council. I hope that hon. Members on all sides will realise that in bringing to an end the London County Council, we are also bringing to an end the Middlesex County Council, which has had a different political complexion.
    We are setting about this laborious, unpopular but necessary task, not in the spirit of Calvinist theologians, as the hon. Member for Fulham so elegantly told us, but because we genuinely believe, on the advice of the Royal Commission, that this is the right thing to do. We have behind us the knowledge that Members of all parties recognise that some reform has to be brought to Greater London. The Schedule, with the distress that it has caused, is part of the essential basis of any reorganisation or reform that any Government would have to introduce.
    I am grateful to hon. Members, on all sides, for the crisp way in which they have made the main arguments. Despite the timetable, I do not believe that any major argument has been neglected. What has happened—it is a lesson that we can learn for other debates—is that speeches have been commendably short, packed full of "meat" and, I hope, adequately answered from this Box.
    Question put, That this Schedule be the First Schedule to the Bill:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 175, Noes 114.

    Division No. 63.]

    AYES

    [11.0 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham)

    Bossom, Hon. Clive

    Altken, W. T.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Bourne-Arton, A.

    Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

    Bateford, Brian

    Box, Donald

    Allason, James

    Berkeley Humphry

    Boyle, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

    Arbuthnot, John

    Biffen, John

    Braine, Bernard

    Ashton, Sir Hubert

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Brewis, John

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Bishop, F. P.

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. sir Walter

    Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Pitt, Dame Edith

    Buck, Antony

    Hobson, Sir John

    Pott, Percivall

    Bullard, Denys

    Holland, Philip

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P,

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

    Proudfoot, Wilfred

    Chataway, Christopher

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

    Pym, Francis

    Chester-Clark, R.

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Quennell, Miss J M.

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Cleaver, Leonard

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Rees, Hugh

    Cole, Norman

    James, David

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Cooke, Robert

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Renton, Rt. Hon. David

    Cooper, A. E.

    Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

    Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

    Corfield, F. V.

    Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith

    Robinson, Rt. Hn. Sir R. (B'pool, S.)

    Costain, A. P.

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    St. Clair, M.

    Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Kimball, Marcus

    Seymour, Leslie

    Crawley, Aidan

    Lancaster, Col, C. G.

    Sharpies, Richard

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

    Leavey, J. A.

    Shaw, M.

    Curran, Charles

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Lindsay, Sir Martin

    Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Llnstead, Sir Hugh

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    d'Avlgdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Longbottom, Charles

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Dlgby, Simon wingfield

    Longden, Gilbert

    Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Stodart, J. A.

    Drayson, G. B.

    MacArthur, Ian

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

    du Cann, Edward

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Duncan, Sir James

    McLean, Nell (Inverness)

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Elliott, B. W.(Nwcastle-upon. Tyne, N.)

    McMaster, Stanley R.

    Tapsell, Peter

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Maddan, Martin

    Taylor, Sir William (Bradford, N.)

    Farr John

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Teeling, Sir William

    Flnlay, Graeme

    Matthews, Gordon (Merlden)

    Temple, John M.

    Fisher, Niget

    Mawby, Ray

    Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton)

    Freeth, Denzil

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

    Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

    Mills, Stratton

    Turner, Colin

    Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Goodhew, Victor

    Morgan, William

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Gower, Raymond

    Nabarro, Sir Gerald

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

    Green, Alan

    Neave, Airey

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Walder, David

    Gurden, Harold

    Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard

    Webster, David

    Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

    Pannell, Norman (Klrkdale)

    Wise, A. R.

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Partridge, E.

    Woodhouse, C. M.

    Hastings, Stephen

    Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Hay, John

    Peel, John

    Woollam, John

    Hendry, Forbes

    Percival, Ian

    Worsley, Marcus

    Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Pllkington, Sir Richard

    Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

    Pitman, Sir James

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Mr. McLaren and Mr. Ian Fraser.

    NOES

    Albu, Austen

    Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

    Lawson, George

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

    Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

    Awbery, Stan (Bristol Central)

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Ginsburg, David

    Loughlin, Charles

    Benson, Sir George

    Gourlay, Harry

    Lubbock, Eric

    Blackburn, F.

    Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

    McCann, John

    Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Lelcs, S.W.)

    Hannan, William

    MacColl, James

    Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

    Harper, Joseph

    McInnes, James

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Hart, Mrs. Judith

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Bradley, Tom

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (RwlyRegis)

    Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

    Callaghan, James

    Hill, J. (Midlothian)

    Manuel, Archie

    Carmichael, Nell

    Holman, Percy

    Mapp, Charles

    Castle, Mrs. Barbara

    Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr)

    Mendelson, J. J.

    Clifle, Michael

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Millan, Bruce

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Hoy, James H.

    Milne, Edward

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglessy)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Crosland, Anthony

    Hunter, A. E.

    Morris, John

    Cullen, Mrs, Alice

    Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

    Mulley, Frederick

    Dalyeil, Tam

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Neal, Harold

    Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Janner, Sir Barnett

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

    Oswald, Thomas

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Parker, John

    Delargy, Hugh

    Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Parkin, B. T.

    Dempsey, James

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Driberg, Tom

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

    King, Dr. Horace

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    598

    599

    Popplewell, Ernest

    Small, William

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Prentice, R. E,

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Whitlock, William

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

    Williams, LI. (Abertlllery)

    Redhead, E. C.

    Stones, William

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Rhodes, H.

    Swingler, Stephen

    Winterbottom, R. E.

    Roberta, Albert (Normanton)

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton)

    Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Woof, Robert

    Rose, William

    Thompson, Or. Alan (Dunfermilne)

    Silverman, Julius (Astan,

    Thornton, Ernest

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

    Tomney, Frank

    Dr. Broughton and Mr. Grey.

    Then The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Clause 1 and Schedule 1 of the Bill to the House, pursuant to Order [29th January].
    Bill (Clause 1 and Schedule 1) reported, without Amendment; to lie upon the Table.

    CONGLETON WAR MEMORIAL HOSPITAL
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. I. Fraser.]
    11.10 p.m.
    Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: I am grateful to be able to raise the question of the possible closure of the Congleton War Memorial Hospital in my constituency. The Minister of Health has a long-term plan—admirable in many respects—for dealing with the hospital services. This includes between 1,200 and 1,400 hospitals which will or may be closed, and Congleton War Memorial Hospital comes in the latter category, although it is by no means certain.
    If I may, I will give the background of this hospital. It was built in 1924 and was paid for by the local people. It was opened by His Majesty the late King as a memorial to 243 men who gave their lives in the First World War. When His Majesty opened the hospital he said:
    "The hospital will always be a reminder to generations to come of the prudent and generous instincts of the townspeople of Congleton, and it is my earnest hope that it may be regarded by those who will follow in your footsteps as an inspiration."
    Little did His Majesty think at the time that here in the early 1960s the closing of the hospital would be under consideration.
    The Minister's plan, as known, has caused the greatest indignation in my constituency. I shall be quite frank about it. As a result, a mats meeting
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    was held at the town hall on 18th September, 1962. There was an overflow of some 2,000 residents, and the meeting was presided over by the mayor. It was unanimously resolved to oppose by every constitutional means any move to prevent its closure or to curtail its present comprehensive service.
    In the month which followed a petition was organised which was signed by 24,000 residents in the locality. I am glad to say that after some negotiations my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health received His Worship the Mayor of Congleton and myself last week, and we discussed the matter then.
    Until the inauguration of the Health Service in 1948 this hospital was maintained, first, by an industrial hospital fund, to which every worker in the borough contributed 1d. per week; secondly, by the proceeds of an annual hospital carnival; thirdly, by private subscriptions; fourthly, by bequests and the proceeds of special efforts, and, fifthly, by the income from private wards. The hospital has undoubtedly rendered an excellent service over a period of years.
    I am told—and, indeed, I know—that during the 24 years of its existence the hospital has been acclaimed to be one of the finest general practitioner hospitals in the country. In fact, Congleton and Biddulph send in acute medical cases which cannot be treated at home, such as acute pneumonia cases necessitating constant antibiotic treatment by injection and cardiac cases in a state of decompression.
    The Minister of Health has always stressed the importance of general practitioner beds in general hospitals, and the fact that the regional board in conjunction with the local management committee has spent something like £60,000 in recent years on erecting a first-class maternity ward seems an extraordinary thing to do if the hospital is not going to last a great number of

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    years. No other such department exists within many miles of Congleton.
    The same applies to the excellent X-ray department. The hospital has a useful pathological laboratory with the daily attendance of fully-qualified technicians and the weekly attendance of consultants. It also has an up-to-date physiotherapy department, and it enables nursing cases to be accommodated and treated in the home town. This means a lot to old people and children who would otherwise be sent many miles for treatment, and this would involve them in costly journeys. Many poor people would have to spend 3s. or 4s, in fares to get to the nearest hospital.
    In an industrial town like Congleton accidents take place, and early treatment can be given by the hospital in such eases. Congleton is an expanding borough. Three new schools and a grammar school are to be built. A more important factor is that the local hospital assists in the recruitment of nurses. Since 1952 the hospital has been a training school for pupil nurses.
    I can well understand the Minister's Hospital Plan, but the Congleton War Memorial Hospital is not an unwieldy Victorian type of hospital. It compares with any other hospital in present-day standards. It is highly efficient and extremely well run; in fact, it compares with most.
    Congleton is a borough whose Charter goes back to the twelfth century, and the hospital is its mast valued possession. The Minister, in correspondence with the regional board, has said that nothing may happen for 10 years, but this hospital is on the list of those which may be closed, and I cannot stress too strongly the indignation felt by local people who have paid for and built this hospital themselves.
    The population in the area is constantly shifting. Only yesterday we were told by the Minister of Housing and Local Government that Manchester, as part of its long-term plan, is to send more people to live in Macclesfield, Winsford, and elsewhere. It may be that Congleton will have to receive some of the Manchester people. I can see the necessity far a long-term plan, but I think it would be better to have a list of hospitals which are definitely to be
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    closed, and not name hospitals which may remain open depending on events.
    I am glad to have had the opportunity to place these facts on record. No doubt the matter will not be decided by my right hon. Friend, or even by his successor. The decision may be three or four Ministers away, but I hope that nothing will be done to lessen the importance of this hospital. In view of the part it has played over the years, I am sure that some useful form of service can be found for it in the years ahead. I ask my hon. Friend to give me as full an assurance as possible regarding the future of this hospital which means so much to my constituents.
    11.18 p.m.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Bernard Braine): I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) has chosen to speak tonight about the possibility of closing one of our smaller hospitals. He has done so with eloquence and feeling, and I shall do my best to allay the fears to which he has given expression and to answer the questions he has put.
    The prospect of closing any hospital that has given good service is one that naturally disturbs the community it serves and prompts sentiments of regret. This is particularly the ease where, as with the Congleton War Memorial Hospital, there are exceptionally close links between the hospital and the community. Yet, for reasons which I hope to show, it is inevitable that some, indeed many, of our smaller hospitals must ultimately be closed as part of the price of progress in medical care.
    What must always come first is the patient, and if he is to be provided with the best that modern medical science can provide, then change in the pattern of the hospital service is bound to come and should, on that account, be welcomed. That is why, in answering my hon. Friend tonight, I should like to speak first about the trends, one might even say exciting trends, which are shaping the course of events.
    Over the last 30 years there have been far-reaching changes in medical practice. Among the more important of these have been the revolutionary change-over from empirical to scientific methods of

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    diagnosis and treatment, and the introduction of a wide range of new and powerful drugs. These changes have been accompanied by increasing specialisation in the different branches of medicine and by recognition of their growing interdependence. A patient needing hospital treatment today usually requires the attention not only of one physician or surgeon but also of other specialists such as radiologists, pathologists and anaesthetists and the use of complicated and expensive apparatus. However, efficient they may have been in the past, and still are today, it is simply not feasible for small hospitals to provide the full range of services required for the practice of modern medicine.
    Undoubtedly, therefore, the most effective way of providing modern hospital care is in large hospitals where a wide range of services and of skills can be brought to bear at all times and—this is an important consideration—where the limited resources of highly-skilled specialist staff needed to provide these services can be mobilised and used to the best advantage.
    Hon. Members will be aware that just over 12 months ago my right hon. Friend published a Hospital Plan for England and Wales in which is described a dramatic programme for the development of our hospital services over the next decade. For the reasons that I have just given, the central feature of the pattern of hospital services on which that plan is based is the development of what we term district general hospitals.
    These district general hospitals will provide patients with a single centre where they can receive diagnosis and treatment, without reference from one hospital to another. They will also enable the doctors and medical technicians to exercise their special skills working in close contact with each other. These buildings will provide in one group a wide range of treatment and diagnostic facilities for both in-patients and outpatients. In addition to medical and surgical units, most of them will also include a maternity unit, a short-stay psychiatric unit, a geriatric unit and facilities for infectious diseases. These new hospitals will be designed to ensure that diagnosis and treatment can be provided under the most favourable con-
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    ditions in buildings which will allow all concerned to use their knowledge and skill to the best advantage.
    Normally these district general hospitals will have between 600 and 800 beds serving a population of 100,000 to 150,000. I think I am right in saying that the population served by the Macclesfield Hospital Group is now approaching the lower of these limits. Some may for special reasons be larger than this and others may be smaller, but a district general hospital can rarely be of less than 300 beds since a hospital smaller than this will normally be unable to provide the required range of facilities.
    I listened carefully to what my hon. Friend said about the Congleton War Memorial Hospital. It is typical of many of the smaller hospitals built under different conditions up and down the country in past years. None can deny that the staff of these hospitals have given and continue to give devoted service, all the more praiseworthy because it is often given in outmoded and unsatisfactory working conditions. But as the impact of the development of district general hospitals is felt, it is inevitable that many of these small hospitals will no longer be required for their present purposes. Some may be retained as maternity units in areas where the distance to the district general hospital justifies this; some will provide long-stay units for the care of the elderly, where elaborate treatment is not necessary; others may be retained to provide services for outpatients or for emergencies. But for many the right course will be closure.
    These smaller hospitals have a tradition of service to the communities in which they are situated, and I fully agree with my hon. Friend that the initial reaction to any suggestion of closure will be one of regret and even of protest. In one sense, I think this is a gratifying sign of the appreciation by the local community of the devoted service given in these hospitals, and I am sure that this is very true of Congleton. However, when the new hospitals are ready, the benefits that they will bring to patients and to the staffs will be seen much more clearly than is possible now, and many who are doubtful now will see the wisdom of what has been done. I am sure that my hon.

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    Friend would agree that it would be unwise to ignore these benefits which are so clearly in prospect when we are discussing the future of any small hospital, however valuable its services may have been and may continue to be for some years to come.
    Equally, it would be very unwise to be dogmatic about the future in the field of health. Here perhaps I might emphasise once again that my right hon. Friend has made clear more than once that the Hospital Plan does not represent final decisions either on the change of use or on the closure of small hospitals. A final decision on the closure or the future of any hospital will not be taken until the alternative provision for the services it provides is already coming into use, which may be many years from now. The choice between continued use for similar or different purposes or closure will then be taken in the light of the needs of the area as they are then found to be.
    Before any hospital is closed, hospital boards are required—and I know that they will be anxious—to consult the bodies concerned with the provision of health services in the area in which the hospital is situated; that is to say, the local health authority, the executive council and the local medical committee, and also to arrange, either by public meetings or by statements in the Press, that all interested bodies have an opportunity to express their views. When this is done the board must report to the Minister, and the final decision will rest with him. As I have indicated, his decision will be taken in the light of the situation as it then exists. It is conceivable that at that time needs will have to be met which cannot at present be foreseen. I think that was underlined by my hon. Friend's reference to the population growth in his constituency. Here is an imponderable which makes any kind of forecast very difficult indeed at this stage.
    The final judgment in a matter of this kind will depend not upon the population now, but what it is likely to be in 5, 10 or 15 years from now, when the decision has to be made. On the other hand, while it is clearly premature to take decisions far in advance, it is necessary for us to plan ahead now. Modern hospitals are complex and costly buildings
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    which take years to plan and erect and we must work on the basis of providing the best service in the light of our present assessment of what is needed and this certainly points to the development, in our view, of large district general hospitals.
    Having said that, I turn now to a closer consideration of the future of Congleton War Memorial Hospital against the background of the kind of development which I have just outlined. The War Memorial Hospital is in the Macclesfield and District Hospital Group which has just under 500 beds in seven hospital units. Macclesfield is at the centre and Congleton, with a population approaching 17,000, is the only other borough in the group. Three of these seven hospital units, providing 311 beds, are in Macclesfield. One providing 43 beds is in Prestbury, about three miles by road from Macclesfield. One providing 24 beds is at Alderley Edge, about six miles from Macclesfield. The remaining two are at Congleton which is about eight miles from Macclesfield. The two hospitals at Congleton are the War Memorial, which provides 10 general practitioner maternity and 29 general practitioner acute beds, and West Heath Hospital which has 55 beds for the chronic sick.
    I endorse much of what my hon. Friend has said about the War Memorial Hospital. With its general practitioner maternity and acute beds, its outpatient, physiotherapy and X-ray departments and its operating theatre—on which considerable work has been done in recent years —it provides a most useful service. Consultant cover is provided from the Macclesfield units. However, I have explained the trend in hospital development which we must follow if we are to provide our people with the most up-to-date medical care—and if we are to provide the people of Congleton and district with the most up-to-date medical care—and accordingly the development envisaged in the Hospital Plan for this area is the construction of a new modern district general hospital in Macclesfield, including a maternity department, to start before 1970–71, where provision would be made for the work now done at all the other hospitals in the group. The future of these existing small hospitals, including the War Memorial, will be for consideration nearer the time that the proposed development takes place.

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    The Manchester Regional Hospital Board is holding meetings in each of its hospital planning areas, at which the principles and details of hospital plans are put to representatives of local bodies. No such meeting has yet been held for the Macclesfield Group and there will therefore be ample opportunity in the future for the plan for the group to be fully discussed by all concerned. However, as my bon. Friend mentioned, a deputation from the Borough of Congleton has been received by the chairman and a committee of the Manchester Regional Hospital Board, and at that meeting the chairman of the board pointed out that in any event it would be seine years, certainly not earlier than 1968 or 1969, before the decision regarding the War Memorial Hospital's future had any practical importance. My hon. Friend mentioned also that before the regional board could come to any final conclusions concerning the hospital services in the Macclesfield and District Group as a whole there would be an area conference at which all interested parties, including the local authorities, would be represented and that this was likely to take place in about two years' time.
    I do not think that it would be reasonable to expect the regional hospital board to go further than this at present. Nor is it possible for my right hon. Friend to do so. I can, however, assure my hon. Friend that both the regional board and my right hon. Friend will give full consideration to all the views which have been put forward—the views which he himself has expressed here tonight, and the views which will be expressed at the conference in two years' time—before a final decision is reached.
    I do not think anybody who heard the speech of my hon. Friend could have failed to be impressed, perhaps moved, by the eloquent plea he made for his local hospital. I can assure him that no decision as to its future—or, for that matter, the future of any small hospital in the country—will be taken lightly. Consideration will be given to ensure that wherever appropriate some useful role will be found.
    Whatever the pattern of hospital provision which finally emerges in the Macclesfield area—or, for that matter,
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    in any other area—my right hon. Friend and I earnestly hope that the interest and support of the local population and the voluntary help to the hospitals which stems from it will in no way be diminished. Opportunities will continue to exist for voluntary service in support of district general hospitals as well as of those smaller and more local hospitals which will continue to function. We very much hope that this service will continue to be given, based on the same sense of pride and affection which underlies the reluctance to accept the possible closure of some of our existing hospitals. I trust that there will always be a place for loyalty and affection between a hospital and the community it serves. I mention this in particular because of the great affection which the people of Congleton have for their hospital and for all who work there.
    There is one point to which I would especially draw the attention of my hon. Friend. The medical staffing of Congleton War Memorial Hospital, as of many hospitals of its type, is provided by the general practitioners of the area. I emphasise that the transfer of work from small hospitals staffed by general practitioners to larger hospitals does not mean that the general practitioner will have a smaller part to play in the hospital service in the future. On the contrary, we very much hope that his contribution will be strengthened. Reviews are now taking place in all areas following the report of the Platt Committee on the medical staffing structure of the hospital service and the importance of the contribution that can be made by general practitioners is very much in mind and will, I am sure, find recognition.
    We have had a useful debate and I ask my hon. Friend to accept that we are not trying to force through a plan without regard to the interests of those for whom the hospital service is provided. The very reverse is the case. What determines all our forward planning for the hospital service of the future is our resolve to bring to the patients the best that modern methods of diagnosis and treatment can provide and to ensure for those devoted and highly-skilled persons who minister to them the best of working conditions.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Adjourned accordingly at twenty-three minutes to Twelve o'clock.