HC Deb 11 March 1959 vol 601 cc1343-60

Amendment proposed: In page 13, line 34, at end insert: not be overcrowded (within the meaning of section forty-nine of the Act of 1950, which

defines overcrowding) and will".—[Miss Herbison.]

Question put, That those words be there inserted in the Bill:—

The House divided: Ayes 178, Noes 218.

Division No. 61.] AYES [7.40 p.m.
Abac Leo Darling, George (Hillsborough) Holman, P.
Ainsley, d. W. Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) Howell, Denis (All Saints)
Albu, A. H. Deer, G. Hoy, J. H.
Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) de Freltas, Geoffrey Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)
Awbery, S. S. Delargy, H. J. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)
Bacon, Miss Alice Diamond, John Hunter, A. E.
Balfour, A. Dodds, N. N. Hynd, H. (Accrington)
Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.) Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)
Benson, Sir George Edelman, M. Irving, Sydney (Dartford)
Beswick, Frank Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) Janner, B.
Blackburn, F. Edwards, Robert (Bllston) Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.
Blenkinsop, A. Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) Jeger, George (Goole)
Blyton, w. R. Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Jeger, Mrs. Lena(Holbn&St.Pncs,S.)
Boardman, H. Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) Johnson, James (Rugby)
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Fernyhough, E. Jones, David (The Hartlepools)
Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.) Finch, H. J. (Bedwellty) Jones, Jack (Rotherham)
Bowles, F. G. Fitch, A. E. (Wigan) Kenyon, C.
Boyd, T. C. Fletcher, Eric Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.
Brockway, A. F. Forman, J. C. King, Dr. H. M.
Broughton, Or. A. D. D. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Lee, Frederick (Newton)
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Gibson, C. W. Lindgren, C. S.
Burton, Miss F, E. Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. McAlister, Mrs. Mary
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Grenfell. Rt. Hon. D. R. McCann, J.
Castle, Mrs. B. A. Grey, C. F. MacColl, J. E.
Champion, A. 0. Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Mclnnes, J.
Chapman, W. D. Griffiths, William (Exchange) McKay, John (Wallsend)
Chetwynd, G. R. Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley) McLeavy, Frank
Cliffe, Michael Hamilton, W. W. MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)
Clunle, J, Hannan, W. Mahon, Simon
Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead) Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Hastings, S. Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Hayman, F. H. Mason, Boy
Cronin, J. D. Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis) Mayhew, C. P.
Grossman, R. H. S. Herbison, Miss M. Mellish, R. J.
Cullen. Mrs. A. Hobson, C. R. (Keighley) Mikardo, Ian
Mitchison, G. R. Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Tomney, F.
Monslow, w. Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Moody, A. S. Ross, William Vlant, S. P.
Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Royle, C. Warbey, W. N.
Morrison, Rt. Hn. Herbert(Lewis'm,S.) Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. Watkins, T. E.
Mort, D. L. Short, E. W. Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Moss, R. Silverman, Julius (Aston) Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Moyle, A. Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) Wheeldon, W. E.
Mulley, F. W. Skeffington, A. M. White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.) Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.) White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Oliver, G. H. Slater, J. (Sedgefield) Wilkins, W. A.
Oram, A. E. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) Willey, Frederick
Padley, W. E. Snow, J. W. Williams David (Neath)
Palmer, A. M. F. Sorensen, R. W. Williams Rt Hon T (Don Valley)
Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)
Paton, John Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Pearson, A. Sparks, J. A. Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)
Peart, T. F. Spriggs, Leslie Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)
Pentland, N. Steele, T. Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Popplewell, E. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Pursey, Cmdr. H. Sylvester, G. O. Woof, R. E.
Randall, H. E. Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) Yates, V. (Ladywood)
Rankin, John Taylor, John (West Lothian) Zilliacus, K.
Reid, William Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Reynolds, G. W. Thornton, E. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Rhodes, H. Timmons, J. Mr. J. T. Price and Mr. Simmons.
NOES
Agnew, Sir Peter Drayson, G. B. Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)
Aitken, W. T. du Cann, E. D. L. Johnson, Eric (Blackley)
Alport, C. J. M. Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond) Joseph, Sir Keith
Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Duncan, Sir James Kerr, Sir Hamilton
Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) Kimball, M.
Arbuthnot, John Elliott, R.W.(Ne'castle upon Tyne, N.) Leather, E. H. C.
Armstrong, C. W. Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn Leavey, J. A.
Ashton, H. Errington, Sir Eric Leburn, W. G.
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Farey-Jones, F. W. Legge-Bourke. Maj. E. A. H.
Baldwin, Sir Archer Fell, A. Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)
Balniel, Lord Finlay, Graeme Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)
Barber, Anthony Fisher, Nigel Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)
Barlow, Sir John Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. Linstead, Sir H. N.
Batsford, Brian Gammans, Lady Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Beamish, Col. Tufton Garner-Evans, E. H. Longden, Gilbert
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Glover, D. Loveys, Walter H.
Bennett, F. M. (Torquay) Glyn, Col. Richard H. Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby
Bennett, Dr. Reginald Godber, J. B. Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Goodhart, Philip Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Biggs-Davison, J. A. Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodside) Macdonald, Sir Peter
Bingham, R. M. Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich) McLaughlin, Mrs. P.
Bishop, F. P. Green, A. McLean, Nell (Inverness)
Black, Sir Cyril Grimond, J. Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)
Body, R. F. Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) Maddan, Martin
Bossom, Sir Alfred Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)
Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan) Gurden, Harold Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. Hall, John (Wycombe) Markham, Major Sir Frank
Bralne, B. R. Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) Marlowe, A. A. H.
Braithwaite, Sir Albert(Harrow, W.) Harris, Reader (Heston) Marshall, Douglas
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H. Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Mathew, R.
Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.
Brooman-White, R. C. Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Mawby, R. L.
Bryan, P. Hay, John Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.
Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Medlicott, Sir Frank
Burden, F. F. A. Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G. Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles
Butcher, Sir Herbert Henderson-Stewart, Sir James Nairn, D. L. S.
Campbell, Sir David Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W. Neave, Airey
Cary, Sir Robert Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton) Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan
Channon, H. P. G. Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Noble, Michael (Argyll)
Chichester-Clark, R. Hill, John (S. Norfolk) Oakshott, H. D.
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) Holland-Martin, C. J. O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)
Cole, Norman Holt, A. F. Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Cooke, Robert Hornby, R. P. Osborne, C.
Cooper-Key, E. M. Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Page, R. G.
Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. Horobin, Sir Ian Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)
Corfieid, F. V. Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence Peel, W. J.
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) Peyton, J. W. W.
Crosthwalte-Eyre, Col. O. E. Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives) Pike, Miss Mervyn
Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Howard, John (Test) Pilkington, Capt. R. A.
Crowder, Petre (Rulslip—Northwood) Hughes-Young, M. H. C. Pitman, I. J.
Currie, C. B. H. Hurd, Sir Anthony Pitt, Miss E. M.
Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement(Montgomery) Hutchison, Michael Clark(E'b'gh, S.) Pott, H. P.
Deedes, W. F. Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh,W.) Price, David (Eastleigh)
de Ferranti, Basil Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.
Digby, Simon Wingfield Iremonger, T. L. Profumo, J. D.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Ramsden, J. E.
Doughty, C. J. A. Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Rawlinson, Peter
Redmayne, M. Speir, R. M. Wade, D. W.
Rees-Davies, W. R. Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.) Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Remnant, Hon, P. Stevens, Geoffrey Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)
Ridsdale, J. E. Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) Wall, Patrick
Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.) Ward, Dt. Hon. C. R. (Worcester)
Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.) Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)
Robson Brown, Sir William Storey, S. Webster, David
Roper, Sir Harold Summers, Sir Spencer Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard Teeling, W. Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)
Russell, R. S. Temple, John M. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Sandys, Rt. Hon. D. Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R. Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.) Woollam, John Victor
Sharpies, R. C. Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Shepherd, William Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)
Smithers, Peter (Winchester) Tilney, John (Wavertree) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood) Vane, W. M. F. Mr. Gibson-Watt and
Spearman, Sir Alexander Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F. Mr. Whitelaw.
Mr. Willis

I beg to move, in page 13, line 35, to leave out from the first "be" to "for" and insert "fit".

In Committee, I asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland to look at this matter. I expected the Secretary of State to put his name above mine on the Notice Paper to indicate that the Government were willing to accept it, but as the Secretary of State has not done that I assume that the Government do not intend to accept the Amendment. I hope that I am wrong, but that is how it appears to me at the moment.

The reason for the Amendment is that in previous housing legislation we refer to houses as being "fit for human habitation", and I should have thought that when one said that a house was "unfit for human habitation" it meant just the opposite. Apparently it does not mean that, because it appears that the Government will not accept the Amendment. The words that the Government use are … such condition as not to he unfit for human habitation". Why should we have this double negative? It seems to me to be perfectly logical that the words "not unfit for human habitation" mean the same as the words "fit for human habitation", so why should we clutter up our legislation with a lot of double negatives that make it more difficult to understand?

It seems to me that the Government are trying to pull a fast one on us. During our debates the Government have usually used the term "fit for human habitation", so why not use the words in this case? Is it because the Government have in mind a lower standard than is usually implied by the words "fit for human habitation"? Are we to give public money for the improvement of houses that are of a lower standard than the standard usually implied in housing legislation when the term "fit for human habitation" is used? Perhaps the Solicitor-General will tell us whether that is the Government's intention. If it is not, then the Government should accept the Amendment. If they do not intend to accept it, perhaps they will say how much lower in standard dwellings that receive public money can be than the standard denoted by the words "fit for human habitation".

What standard have the Government in mind when they use the words not to be unfit for human habitation"? How low is that standard? The Government must have a different standard in mind, otherwise the words would not be used. The existing standard in Scotland is pretty low, as the Solicitor-General himself knows. As I understand it, the term in Scotland merely means windproof and watertight, and nothing else. What does the new term mean? I think I am correct in saying that it has not appeared in previous legislation. The Housing (Scotland) Act, 1950, uses the term "fit for human habitation", as do the Rent Act and the Housing (Repairs and Rents) (Scotland) Act. Are the Government so anxious to bribe people to vote for them at the forthcoming election that they are prepared to grant Government largesse to every slum racketeer in the country? That is what the Bill will do.

Sir Arthur Vere Harvey (Macclesfield)

No.

Mr. Willis

The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) would have known that had he been listening to the debates, but he has not.

Sir A. V. Harvey

Yes, I have.

Mr. Willis

The hon. Gentleman knows that that is precisely what the Bill will do. I am trying to discover how rotten a property can be and still qualify for assistance under the Bill.

I hope that the Solicitor-General will give a much more satisfactory reply on this Amendment than he did on the former Amendment, and that he will address himself to some of the arguments. Having done so, I hope that he will say that he is prepared to accept the Amendment and will give us a phrase which is more simple to understand and which fits into our normal housing legislation.

The Solicitor-General for Scotland

I share the dislike of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) of double negatives, but there is a reason for our choice in this case. The phrases "fit for human habitation" and "not unfit for human habitation" are not precisely the same. If the hon. Member asked me to a party, which is perhaps unlikely, and if I were asked afterwards how I had enjoyed it, if I said that it had been enjoyable I would mean one thing, but if I said that it was not unenjoyable the hon. Gentleman may feel that I was damning him with faint praise.

The point is that there are borderline cases, as I think I said on a previous occasion. The definition of "fitness" or "unfitness" is not a definition at all. It merely means that one must have regard to certain matters. If one used the phrase "not unfit", borderline cases may qualify which would not qualify if one used the word "fit", but they must come within the standard laid down in Clause 20, namely, that the local authority must be satisfied that a dwelling will remain in a not unfit state for not less than fifteen years.

Mr. Willis

This is the point that I was making. We have had unfit property in use for longer than fifteen years. By the use of this term, the right hon. and learned Gentleman suggests that we should aggravate the position.

The Solicitor-General for Scotland

No. The hon. Member must keep in mind that the property must remain not unfit for fifteen years. In deciding that, one has to go back to the 1950 Act, to the old definition, under which, as the hon. Gentleman knows, one must have regard to disrepair, sanitary defects, and whether the house falls short of the provisions of any building regulations in operation in the district.

That is the reason for this slightly elastic phrase, whether one takes it in the positive or double negative form. It is to indicate to local authorities that they should give the benefit of the doubt to borderline cases. It is not a question of lowering standards.

Let us look at the matter in this way. If a tenant is in a borderline house with a life of fifteen years, if he wants a wash hand basin or a hot water system installed and the landlord can do it only if a grant is given, let us give the benefit of the doubt in a doubtful case to the tenant. I am not talking about helping the landlord; I am talking about helping the tenant. It is for that reason that we have used this phrase, which is also used in Clause 5 (2).

Mr. Willis

But not in previous housing legislation.

The Solicitor-General for Scotland

Not in previous housing legislation, but this is to give the benefit of the doubt to houses on the borderline. For that reason, I recommend the House not to accept the Amendment.

8.0 p.m.

Miss Herbison

The answer of the right hon. and learned Gentleman has clearly shown that the doubts of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) were well founded. They are no longer doubts but certainties. The right hon. and learned Gentleman referred to the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1950. That Act talks about a house being fit for human habitation. The definition is so important that I shall quote it. It says: In determining for the purposes of this Act whether a house is fit for human habitation, regard shall be had to the extent, if any, to which by reason of disrepair or sanitary defects the house falls short of the provisions of any building regulations in operation in the district. That is a clear definition. It may be a very poor house and yet still be described as "fit for human habitation".

Now the Government say that we are to use public money from rates and taxes in order that a landlord may provide standard amenities in a house, thus increasing its value, even though it falls short of the definition of the 1950 Act. The right hon. and learned Gentleman spoke of doubtful cases. Local authorities are to be forced to give the grants, SO who will decide whether a house is fit or unfit for human habitation?

This is one of the most atrocious provisions of the Bill and was clearly shown to be atrocious by the reply of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. People in Scotland will not miss this. They have realised for long how hard the Government have been on the finances of local authorities and on the tenants of council houses. I wish that the Government had shown to landlords the attitude which they have shown to publicly-elected bodies which have done their best to provide decent housing in Scotland.

The Government's attitude is shocking. I do not know whether we can persuade the right hon. and learned Gentleman to change that attitude, but it is shocking that the Government should give grants for houses which are not what we would call fit for human habitation—and that is what this provision means. The right hon. and learned Gentleman told us that "not unfit for human habitation" meant something less than "fit for human habitation". We have had many instances of the Government's lack of regard for the housing needs of Scotland, and this is just another example and one of the most atrocious instances of their lack of consideration for the Scottish people.

Mr. H. Hynd (Accrington)

With all respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) and my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis), the best speech in support of the Amendment was that made by the Solicitor-General for Scotland. The House will remember that he used as an illustration an invitation to a party. He said that to say that such a party was not unenjoyable would have been to damn it with faint praise. That is surely intended to show that to say a house is not unfit for human habitation is to damn the house with faint praise.

What he said, in effect, was that the house would not be fit for human habitation. That is the only lesson to be drawn from his illustration. He said that "not unfit" was the same as "fit". It is a long time since I was at school, but I was taught that a double negative meant a positive. If that is not the case, we are entitled to a further explanation, not only for the sake of clarity, but for the sake of having the Bill in a reasonable form. I hope that the Government will change the phrase to "fit for human habitation" instead of the present ambiguous phrase which, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself pointed out, would damn a house with faint praise.

Mr. Ede (South Shields)

I have never heard an explanation, even from a lawyer, which filled me with more dismay. I have been engaged in housing work for many years and I have always understood that houses were fit or unfit. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that on one side of fitness there was a borderline and that if a house was on that borderline, it was to be regarded as not unfit. How wide is that borderline? My hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) read the definition from the 1950 Act which the right hon. and learned Gentleman had paraphrased. How many of those things can be wanting in a house for the house still to be regarded as not unfit? That is a problem which will face local authorities and the Ministry when they deal with this matter.

I should have thought that as late in the Christian era as 1959 we would not have wanted Scotland to get to the position where "not unfit" is said to mean something less than "fit". This is a departure from standards which all reasonable local sanitary authorities have been trying to establish for years.

There is no English Law Officer present, but I do not think that the phrase "not unfit" occurs in English public health legislation.

Mr. Willis

It is in the Bill.

The Solicitor-General for Scotland

The phrase is the same in the corresponding English Clause. I have noted that no hon. or right hon. Gentleman representing an English constituency thought fit to raise the matter until it was raised on a Scottish Amendment.

Mr. Ede

So much the better for the Scots for once. I do not like English law being made to approximate to Scottish law, but if we are both going wrong together, let us save at any rate one group from going over the precipice. This is an exceedingly retrograde step and I hope that even now the Government will see fit to withdraw from the position which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has tried to defend.

Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill:—

The House divided: Ayes 199, Noes 159.

Division No. 62.] AYES [8.10 p.m.
Aitken, W. T. Grimond, J. Oakshott, H, D.
Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)
Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. Orr- Capt. L. P. S.
Armstrong, C. W. Gurden, Harold Osborne, C.
Ashton, H. Hall, John (Wycombe) Page, R. G.
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. w.) Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)
Baldwin, Sir Archer Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Partridge, E.
Balniel, Lord Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) Peel, W. J.
Barber, Anthony Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Peyton, J. W. W.
Barlow, Sir John Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Pike, Miss Mervyn
Bataford, Brian Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G. Pilkington, Capt. R. A.
Beamish, Col. Tufton Henderson-Stewart, Sir James Pitman, I. J.
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. w. Pitt, Miss E. M.
Bennett, F. M. (Torquay) Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton) Pott, H. P.
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Price, David (Eastleigh)
Bingham, R. M. Holland-Martin, C. J. Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.
Bishop, F. P. Hornby, R. P. Profumo, J. D.
Black, Sir Cyril Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Ramsden, J. E.
Body, R. F. Horobin, Sir Ian Rawlinson, Peter
Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan) Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) Redmayne, M.
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives) Rees-Davies, W. R.
Braine, B. R. Howard, John (Test) Remnant, Hon. P.
Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) Hughes-Young, M. H. C. Ridsdale, J. E.
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H. Hurd, Sir Anthony Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)
Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry Hutchison, Michael Clark(E'b'gh, S.) Robson Brown, Sir William
Brooman-White, R. C. Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.) Roper, Sir Harold
Bryan, P. Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. Iremonger, T. L. Russell, R. S.
Burden, F. F. A. Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.
Butcher, Sir Herbert Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.
Cary, Sir Robert Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Sharpies, R. C.
Channon, H. P. G. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Shepherd, William
Chichester-Clark, R. Joseph, Sir Keith Smithers, Peter (Winchester)
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) Kerr, Sir Hamilton Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)
Cole, Norman Kimball, M. Spearman, Sir Alexander
Cooke, Robert Leather, E. H. C. Speir, R. M.
Corfield, F.V. Leavey, J. A. Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Leburn, W. G. Stevens, Geoffrey
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col, O. E. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)
Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)
Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood) Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.) Summers, Sir Spencer
Currie, G. B. H. Lindsay, Martin (Solihull) Teeling, W.
Davidson, Viscountess Linstead, Sir H. N. Temple, John M.
Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement(Montgomery) Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Deedes, W. F. Longden, Gilbert Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)
de Ferrantl, Basil Loveys, Walter H. Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)
Digby, Simon Wingfield Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin
Donaldson. Cmdr. c. E. McA. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Tilney, John (Wavertree)
Doughty, C. J. A. Macdonald, Sir Peter Vane, W. M. F.
Drayson, G. B. McLaughlin, Mrs. P. Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.
Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond) McLean, Neil (Inverness) Wade, D. w.
Duncan, Sir James Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax) Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Elliott, R. W.(Ne'castle upon Tyne. N.) Maddan, Martin Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)
Errington, Sir Eric Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) Wall, Patrick
Farey-Jones, F. W. Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark) Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)
Fell, A. Markham, Major Sir Frank Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)
Finlay, Graeme Marshall, Douglas Webster, David
Fisher, Nigel Mathew, R. Whitelaw, W. S. I.
Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. Maudling, Rt. Hon. R. Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Gammans, Lady Mawby, R. L. Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)
Garner-Evans, E. H. Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Glover, D. Medlicott, Sir Frank Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Glyn, Col. Richard H. Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles Woollam, John Victor
Godber, J. B. Nairn, D. L. S. Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Goodhart, Philip Neave, Airey
Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodside) Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R. (Nantwich) Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan Mr. J. E. B. Hill and
Green, A. Noble, Michael (Argyll) Mr. Gibson-Watt.
NOES
Abse, Leo Balfour, A. Blyton, W. R.
Ainsley, J. W. Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.) Boardman, H.
Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) Benson, Sir George Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.
Awbery, S. S. Blackburn, F. Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S. w.)
Bacon, Miss Alice Blenkinsop, A. Bowles, F. G.
Boyd, T. C. Hynd, H. (Accrington) Rhodes, H.
Brockway, A. F. Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Janner, B. Ross, William
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Jeger, George (Goote) Royle, C.
Burton, Miss F. E. Jeger, Mrs. Lena(Holbn & St. Pncs. S.) Short, E. W.
Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) Johnson, James (Rugby) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Castle, Mrs. B. A. Jones, David (The Hartlepools) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Champion, A. J. Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)
Chetwynd, G. R. Kenyon, C. Skeffington, A. M.
Cliffe, Michael Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)
Clunie, J. King, Dr. H. M. Slater, J. (Sedgefield)
Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead) Lee, Frederick (Newton) Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Lindgren, G. S. Snow, J. W.
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) McAlister, Mrs. Mary Sorensen, R. W.
Cronin, J. D. McCann, J. Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Crossman, R. H. S. MacColl, J. E. Sparks, J. A.
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) Mclnnes, J. Spriggs, Leslie
Deer, G. McKay, John (Wallsend) Steele, T.
Delargy, H. J. McLeavy, Frank Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.
Diamond, John MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Sylvester, G. O.
Dodds, N. N. Mahon, Simon Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.) Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) Mann, Mrs. Jean Thornton, E.
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Mason, Roy Timmons, J.
Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) Mayhew, C. P. Tomney, F.
Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Mikardo, Ian Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) Mitchison, G. R. Viant, S. P.
Fernyhough, E. Moody, A. S. Warbey, W. N.
Finch, H. J. (Bedwellty) Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Watkins, T. E.
Fitch, A. E. (Wigan) Mort, D. L. Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Moss, R. Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Gibson, C. W. Moyle, A. Wheeldon, W. E.
Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. Mulley, F. W. White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Grey, C. F. Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.) White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Oram, A. E. Wilkins, W. A.
Griffiths, William (Exchange) Padley, W. E. Witley, Frederick
Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Paget, R. T. Williams, David (Neath)
Hamilton, W. W. Palmer, A.M. F. Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)
Hannan, W. Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.) Paton, John Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)
Hastings, S. Pearson, A. Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)
Hayman, F. H. Peart, T. F. Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis) Pentland, N. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Herbison, Miss M. Popplewell, E. Woof, R. E.
Holman, P. Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Yates, V, (Ladywood)
Hoy, J. H. Pursey, Cmdr. H.
Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Randall, H. E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Rankin, John Mr. John Taylor and Mr. J. T. Price.
Hunter, A. E. Reynolds, G. W.
Miss Herbison

I beg to move, in page 13, line 35, after "habitation", to insert: and free from any sanitary defects". After what we heard when we were discussing the previous Amendment, it seems to me that it is of the greatest importance that we should add these words: and free from any sanitary defects. Perhaps the Solicitor-General for Scotland will enable us to shorten this discussion by saying that the Government are ready to accept this Amendment, and I shall be glad to give way to enable him to do so.

The Solicitor-General for Scotland

indicated dissent.

Miss Herbison

From the movement of his head I gather that the Solicitor-General for Scotland is indicating that the Government will not accept this Amendment. Therefore, we shall have grants given for houses which are not quite fit for habitation. houses which have sanitary defects.

In Section 184 of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1950, there is a definition of "sanitary defects". It states that sanitary defects "includes lack of air space". If there is not sufficient air space for a family in a house, will the Government force a local authority to give the landlord money to improve that house with standard amenities? Because that is what the Solicitor-General for Scotland means by shaking his head.

The next definition is, "or of ventilation". I know some houses in Glasgow which, with the best will in the world, could not be described as properly ventilated. Is that the kind of house for which a landlord is to receive a grant? The next definition refers to "darkness". We know of houses in which the tenants have lived all their lives and rarely seen the sun streaming through their windows. That is a sanitary defect. Do the Government propose to give money to the landlords of such houses in order that standard amenities may be provided in them?

The next reference is to "dampness". When I go to some villages in my constituency I am invited into houses to see the dampness in the bottom of the house and the dampness crawling up the walls. A large amount of money is spent by Scottish housewives on redoration. That is one of the sanitary defects listed in the 1950 Act. Are the Government ready to give a grant to the landlords of these houses in order that amenities may be introduced into buildings of that kind?

Another definition is the absence of adequate and readily accessible water supply". If the standard amenities are provided, that also must be provided. The definition refers to sanitary arrangements or of other conveniences. The term "other conveniences" can cover many things. The last part of the definition refers to adequate paving or draining of courts, yards or passages. When we discussed sanitary defects during the debates on the 1950 Act we considered not only what was to be found inside a house but also the surroundings. Are the Government ready to provide landlords with grants in respect of houses where the outside is in a miserable state?

I do not know whether the Solicitor-General for Scotland has seen some of these places, but he could find them in any of the back courts in Glasgow. He could see some in the villages in my constituency. I could take him to many villages in North Lanarkshire and show him houses where the surroundings are dreadful. These things are listed in the 1950 Act as sanitary defects. Is the Solicitor-General for Scotland or the Government prepared to say that, even if houses have one or more of these sanitary defects, local authorities will still be forced to give grants to the landlords?

During the whole of our discussions on this Bill the Government have shown a disregard of the needs of the tenants and the need to conserve the money of the ratepayers and taxpayers. The only people for whom the Government have shown any regard are the landlords, and particularly the poorer landlords. I ask the Solicitor-General for Scotland to think again about this matter and to accept what is a small but a very important Amendment.

The Solicitor-General for Scotland

I sympathise with the motives which have prompted the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) and her hon. Friends to put down this Amendment. Despite her researches into the 1950 Act, which she knows so well, I do not think the hon. Lady has sufficiently taken into account the fact that under the provisions of this Bill, in deciding whether a house is not unfit for human habitation, a local authority must look at the sanitary defects. Under Section 184 (2) of the 1950 Act, which is, so to speak, incorporated in this Bill, regard must be had to sanitary defects, which are as the hon. Lady quoted.

Accordingly, when deciding whether to give a grant and whether the first part of that Section has been complied with, the local authority will look at these matters. If the defects are not grave, although it is a case where a house does not comply in all respects with modern standards, the tenants living under those conditions will be able to have the amenities provided by the landlord and thereby will benefit.

The hon. Lady talked about her visits to villages in her constituency and of hearing complaints about darkness, dampness and the like. Has she ever asked any of her constituents whether they would prefer to have a washbasin installed in the house, if they have not already got one, or whether they would prefer to have an indoor water closet, if they do not already have one? The effect of her Amendment would be that, by reason of sanitary defects, perhaps not grave ones, tenants would be precluded from having these amenities which they might want.

Miss Herbison

The Solicitor-General for Scotland keeps reiterating, "not grave defects." I invite him to look at the definition of sanitary defects in the 1950 Act, and if he can give one which would not be a grave defect I should like to know about it, because I have not been able to find one.

8.30 p.m.

The Solicitor-General for Scotland

One simple example is where the ventilation is slightly defective.

Mr. John Paton (Norwich, North)

The Act does not say "slightly".

The Solicitor-General for Scotland

"Sanitary defects" includes—[Interruption.] Perhaps I may be allowed to continue my speech. The definition in the Act is that "sanitary defects" includes lack of air space or of ventilation". That means that a slight defect in ventilation comes under that definition. There are cases where the sanitary defect may be small, but by the Amendment a slight defect in ventilation, by the window being just too small by normal standards or the air space slightly below modern standards, would exclude any possibility of the tenant's benefiting by the amenities which can be put in under the Bill.

If the defects are serious, the local authority can and will say that the house is unfit for human habitation and accordingly will not give a grant. If there are serious sanitary defects, the local authority will and must refuse to give grants under the Bill. If there are very slight ones, the local authority can say, "The house is not unfit, and provided we are satisfied that it will remain so for another 15 years we can give a grant".

Let it be kept in mind, when we hear so much about landlords—we always do hear about them on these occasions—

Sir Lynn Ungoed-Thomas (Leicester, North-East)

The Bill is about landlords.

The Solicitor-General for Scotland

The hon. and learned Gentleman rather gives the whole thing away because this is not a Bill about landlords entirely. It will benefit tenants as well. [Interruption.] Certainly, it will. I am not unsympathetic to the point of view expressed by the hon. Lady, but the effect of her Amendment, even if it prevented the landlord from getting a grant, would equally prevent the tenant from doing so. We must look at it from the tenant's point of view. The Amendment would be to the detriment of the tenant.

Mr. Ede

The Solicitor-General for Scotland instanced a slight defect here and there. If every one of the sanitary conditions in a house is slightly defective, is the house still eligible? How many slight defects have there to be before the house becomes ineligible?

The Solicitor-General for Scotland

It is for the local authority to say, in the light of the particular case, as it does now. In deciding whether a house is fit or unfit it has to look at all the sanitary defects, in the house as a whole.

Mr. Ede

The local authority may have to take counsel's opinion in every case.

The Solicitor-General for Scotland

If that is so, local authorities should have been taking counsel's opinion under every Act passed by the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends.

Amendment negatived.