§ [Queen's Recommendation signified.]Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees.]
§ [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to alter the contributions payable to the National Insurance Fund under the National Insurance Acts, 1946 to 1957, and the retirement benefits payable under those Acts, and in particular to provide for payment of a graduated retirement benefit in return for contributions related to the amount of a person's remuneration, it is expedient to authorise the making of provision for the following purposes: —
§ contributions as a self-employed or non-employed person shall be of an amount equal to one third of the contributions:
§ Provided that for this purpose there shall be excluded from the contributions as an employed person and from the employer's contributions—
§ (A) contributions related to the amount of a person's remuneration (referred to below as"graduated contributions"); and
§ (B) if the Act provides for graduated contributions not to be payable in respect of remuneration from certain employments (referred to below as"non-participating employments"), the amount, if any, by which the other contributions payable by reason of a person's employment are higher because it is a non-participating employment;
§ (ii) in any financial year ending in or after 1962 there shall be paid for the supplements in respect of contributions paid in that financial year sums amounting to not less than one hundred and seventy million pounds;
§ (b) in addition to the Exchequer supplements there may in respect of the financial years ending in 1961 and 1962 be paid sums not exceeding in the aggregate, with the sums paid in respect of the five preceding financial years under subsection (3) of section two of the National Insurance Act, 1954, the three hundred and twenty-five million pounds authorised to be paid under that subsection in respect of those five years;
§ (2) for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of expenses incurred by a Minister of the Crown under any provision of 1021 the Act enabling him, in relation to any class of employments covered by a statutory superannuation scheme, to act in place of the employers for the purpose of the provisions relating to non-participating employments (including expenses incurred by the Minister in making any payments required of an employer under those provisions), and for the payment into the Exchequer of any sums recouped to the Minister in respect of payments so made;
§ (3) for the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance or any other government department in carrying the Act into effect, but so that the amount of any such expenses, except in so far as they are estimated to be attributable to the collection of national health service contributions, shall be re-imbursed to the Treasury out of the National Insurance Fund or out of the Industrial Injuries Fund.—[Mr. Boyd-Carpenter.]
§ Mr. H. A. Marquand (Middlesbrough, East)I should like to draw your atten-lion Sir Charles, to the words contained
§ in lines 10 to 14 of the Money Resolution. In our view, one of the major defects of the Bill which we have just been discussing is its financial provisions.
§ We had certainly hoped in Committee, as we have had no reply whatever tonight to our objection to those financial provisions, to be able to put forward constructive alternatives without imposing any charge beyond that at present levied on the Exchequer under the present scheme. It looks very much, however, as if our freedom to discuss the financial provisions of the Bill will be limited if this Resolution is passed. I therefore ask the Committee to reject it.
§ Question put:—
§ The Committee divided:Ayes 303, Noes 250.
1025| Division No. 23.] | AYES | [10.13 p.m. |
| Agnew, Sir Peter | Cooper, A. E. | Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) |
| Aitken, W. T. | Cooper-Key, E. M. | Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) |
| Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) | Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. | Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. |
| Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) | Corfield, F. V. | Gurden, Harold |
| Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton) | Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) | Hall, John (Wycombe) |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William | Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. | Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H. |
| Arbuthnot, John | Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.) |
| Armstrong, C. W. | Crowder, Petre (Rulslip—Northwood) | Harris, Reader (Hestorn) |
| Ashton, H. | Cunningham, Knox | Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon) |
| Atkins, H. E. | Currie, G. B. H. | Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) |
| Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. | Dance, J. C. G. | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Maoclesf'd) |
| Baldwin, Sir Archer | Davidson, Viscountess | Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) |
| Balniel, Lord | D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Hay, John |
| Barber, Anthony | Deedes, W. F. | Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel |
| Barlow, Sir John | de Ferranti, Basil | Henderson, John (Cathcart) |
| Barter, John | Digby, Simon Wingfield | Henderson-Stewart, Sir James |
| Batsford, Brian | Dodds-Parker, A. D. | Hesketh, R. F. |
| Baxter, Sir Beverley | Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. | Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) |
| Beamish, Col. Tufton | Doughty, C. J. A. | Hill, John (S. Norfolk) |
| Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) | Drayson, C. B. | Hinchingbrooke, Viscount |
| Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) | du Cann, E. D. L. | Hirst, Geoffrey |
| Bennett, F. M. (Torquay) | Duncan, Sir James | Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n) |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald | Duthie, W. S. | Holland-Martin, C. J. |
| Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) | Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David | Hope, Lord John |
| Bidgood, J. C. | Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) | Hornby, R. P. |
| Biggs-Davison, J. A. | Elliott, R.W.(Ne'castle upon Tyne, N.) | Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. |
| Bingham, R. M. | Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn | Horobin, Sir Ian |
| Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel | Erroll, F. J. | Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence |
| Bishop, F. P. | Farey-Jones, F. W. | Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives) |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Fell, A. | Howard, John (Test) |
| Body, R. F. | F inlay, Graeme | Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J. |
| Bossom, Sir Alfred | Fisher, Nigel | Hughes-Young, M. H. C. |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J, A. | Forrest, G. | Hurd, Sir Anthony |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Fort, R. | Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.) |
| Braine, B. R. | Foster, John | Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.) |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H. | Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone) | Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun) |
| Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry | Freeth, Denzil | Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry |
| Brooman-White, R. C. | Gammans, Lady | Iremonger, T. L. |
| Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton) | Gamer-Evans, E. H. | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) |
| Bryan, P. | George, J. C. (Pollok) | Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) |
| Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. | Gibson-Watt, D. | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) |
| Burden, F. F. A. | Glover, D. | Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam) |
| Butcher, Sir Herbert | Glyn, Col. Richard H. | Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) |
| Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A.(Saffron Walden) | Godber, J. B. | Johnson, Eric (Blackley) |
| Campbell, Sir David | Goodhart, Philip | Johnson, Howard (Kemptown) |
| Carr, Robert | Cough, C. F. H. | Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green) |
| Cary, Sir Robert | Gower, H. R. | Joseph, Sir Keith |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Graham, Sir Fergus | Kaberry, D. |
| Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) | Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodside) | Keegan, D. |
| Cole, Norman | Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich) | Kerby, Capt. H. B. |
| Conant, Maj. Sir Roger | Green, A. | Kerr, Sir Hamilton |
| Cooke, Robert | Gresham Cooke, R. | Kershaw, J. A. |
| Kimball, M. | Nabarro, G. D. N. | Spearman, Sir Alexander |
| Kirk, P. M. | Nairn, D. L. S. | Speir, R. M. |
| Lagden, G. W. | Neave, Airey | Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Lambton, Viscount | Nicholls, Harmar | Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard |
| Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham) | Stevens, Geoffrey |
| Langford-Holt, J. A. | Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Ghr'ch) | Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) |
| Leather, E. H. C. | Noble, Michael (Argyll) | Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.) |
| Leavey, J. A. | Nugent, G. R. H. | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm |
| Leburn, W. G. | Oakshott, H. D. | Storey, S. |
| Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. | O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) | Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray) |
| Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T. | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Studholme, Sir Henry |
| Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.) | Orr-Ewing, C. Ian (Hendon, N.) | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Lindsay, Martin (Solihull) | Osborne, C. | Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington) |
| Linstead, Sir H. N. | Page, R. G. | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Llewellyn, D. T. | Parmell, N. A. (Kirkdale) | Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) |
| Lloyd, Rt. Hon. C. (Sutton Coldfield) | Partridge, E. | Teeling, W. |
| Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) | Peel, W. J. | Temple, John M. |
| Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral) | Peyton, J. W. W. | Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) |
| Longden, Gilbert | Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth | Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway) |
| Loveys, Walter H. | Pike, Mist Mervyn | Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) |
| Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby | Pilkington, Capt. R. A. | Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.) |
| Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) | Pitman, I. J. | Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin |
| Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswlck) | Pitt, Miss E. M. | Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.) |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Pott, H. P. | Tilney, John (Wavertree) |
| McAdden, S. J. | Powell, J. Enoch | Turner, H. F. L. |
| Macdonald, Sir Peter | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H. |
| Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry | Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) | Vane, W. M. F. |
| McLaughlin, Mrs. P. | Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. | Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. |
| Maclay, Rt. Hon. John | Profumo, J. D. | Vickers, Miss Joan |
| Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster) | Ramsden, J. E. | Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F. |
| McLean, Neil (Inverness) | Rawlinson, Peter | Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone) |
| Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.) | Redmayne, M. | Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek |
| Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley) | Rees-Davies, W. R. | Wall, Patrick |
| Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax) | Remnant, Hon. P. | Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester) |
| Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) | Renton, D. L. M. | Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth) |
| Maddan, Martin | Ridsdale, J. E. | Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold |
| Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) | Rippon, A. G. F. | Webbe, Sir H. |
| Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R. | Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) | Webster, David |
| Markham, Major Sir Frank | Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.) | Whitelaw, W. S. I. |
| Marlowe, A. A. H. | Robson Brown, Sir William | Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.) |
| Marples, Rt. Hon, A. E. | Roper, Sir Harold | Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter) |
| Mathew, R. | Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Maudllng, Rt. Hon. R. | Russell, R. S. | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Mawby, R. L. | Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R. | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C. | Sharples, R. C. | Wood, Hon. R. |
| Medlicott, Sir Frank | Shepherd, William | Woollam, John Victor |
| Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R. | Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) | Yates, William (The Wrekin) |
| Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh | Smithers, Peter (Winchester) | |
| Moore, Sir Thomas | Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher | Mr. Legh and Mr. E. Wakefield. |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Champion, A. J. | Fletcher, Eric |
| Ainsley, J. W. | Chapman, W. D. | Forman, J. C. |
| Albu, A. H. | Chetwynd, G. R. | Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Cliffe, Michael | Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. |
| Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) | Clunie, J. | George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Car'then) |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Coldrlck, W. | Gibson, C. W. |
| Awbery, S. S. | Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead) | Gooch, E. G. |
| Bacon, Miss Alice | Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. |
| Baird, J. | Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Grey, C. F. |
| Balfour, A. | Cronin, J. D. | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) |
| Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. | Crossman, R. H. S. | Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Lianelly) |
| Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.) | Cullen, Mrs. A. | Griffiths, William (Exchange) |
| Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.) | Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. | Grimond, J. |
| Benson, Sir George | Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) | Hale, Leslie |
| Beswick, Frank | Davies, Harold (Leek) | Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley) |
| Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) | Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) | Hamilton, W. W. |
| Blackburn, F. | Deer, G. | Hannan, W. |
| Blenkinsop, A. | Delargy, H. J. | Hastings, S. |
| Blyton, W. R. | Diamond, John | Hayman, F. H. |
| Boardman, H. | Dodds, N. N. | Healey, Denis |
| Bonham Carter, Mark | Donnelly, D. L. | Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. | Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch) | Hewitson, Capt. M. |
| Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.) | Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. | Hobson, C. R. (Keighley) |
| Boyd, T. C. | Edelman, M. | Holman, P. |
| Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth | Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) | Holmes, Horace |
| Brockway, A. F. | Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) | Houghton, Douglas |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D, D. | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Howell, Charles (Perry Barr) |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) | Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) | Howell, Denla (All Saints) |
| Brown, Thomas (Ince) | Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) | Hoy, J. H. |
| Burton, Miss F. E. | Fernyhough, E. | Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Finch, H. J. | Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) |
| Castle, Mrs. B. A. | Fitch, Alan | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) |
| Hunter, A. E. | Moody, A. S. | Skeffington, A. M. |
| Hynd, H. (Accrington) | Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) | Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.) |
| Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) | Morrison, Rt. Hn. Herbert (Lewls'm, S.) | Slater, J. (Sedgefield) |
| Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) | Mort, D. L. | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) |
| Irving, Sydney (Dartford) | Moss, R. | Snow, J. W. |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. | Moyle, A. | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Janner, B. | Mulley, F. W. | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank |
| Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. | Neal, Harold (Bolsover) | Sparks, J. A. |
| Jeger, George (Goole) | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Jeger, Mrs. LertafHolbn & St. Pncs. S.) | O'Brien, Sir Thomas | Steele, T. |
| Jenkins, Roy (Stechford) | Oliver, G. H. | Stewart, Michael (Fulham) |
| Johnson, James (Rugby) | Oram, A. E. | Stonehouse, John |
| Johnston, Douglas (Paisley) | Oswald, T. | Stones, W. (Consett) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech (Wakefield) | Owen, W. J. | Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Jones, David (The Hartlepools) | Padley, w. E. | Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) |
| Jones, Jack (Rotherham) | Paget, R. T. | stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.) |
| Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Deame Valley) | Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) | Swingler, S. T. |
| Kenyon, C. | Palmer, A. M, F. | Sylvester, G. O. |
| Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| King, Dr. H. M. | Pargiter, G. A. | Taylor, John (West Lothian) |
| Lawson, G. M. | Parker, J. | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| Ledger, R. J. | Parkin, B. T. | Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Paton, John | Thomson, George (Dundee, E.) |
| Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) | Peart, T. F. | Thornton, E. |
| Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Pentland, N. | Timmons, J. |
| Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) | Plummer, Sir Leslie | Tomney, F. |
| Lewis, Arthur | Popplewell, E. | Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn |
| Lindgren, G. S. | Prentice, R. E. | Usborne, H. C. |
| Logan, D. G. | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) | Wade, D. W. |
| Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) | Warbey, W. N. |
| McAlister, Mrs. Mary | Probert, A. R. | Watkins, T. E. |
| McCann, J. | Proctor, W. T. | Weitzman, D. |
| MacColl, J. E. | Pursey, Cmdr. H. | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| MacDermot, Niall | Randall, H. E. | Wheeldon, W. E. |
| McGhee, H. G. | Rankin, John | White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint) |
| McKay, John (Wallsend) | Redhead, E. C. | White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.) |
| McLeavy, Frank | Reeves, J. | Wigg, George |
| MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) | Held, William | Wilcock, Croup Capt. C. A. B. |
| MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) | Reynolds, G. W. | Willey, Frederick |
| Mahon, Simon | Rhodes, H. | Williams, David (Neath) |
| Mainwaring, W. H. | Robens, Rt. Hon. A. | Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don valley) |
| Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Williams, Richard (Openshaw) |
| Mallalieu, J. P. w. (Huddersfd, E.) | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Mann, Mrs. Jean | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) |
| Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) | Winterbottom, Richard |
| Mason, Roy | Roes, William | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Mayhew, C. P. | Royle, C. | Woof, R. E. |
| Mellish, R. J. | Short, E. W. | Yates, V. (Ladywood) |
| Mikardo, Ian | Silverman, Julius (Aston) | Younger, Rt. Hon. K. |
| Mitchison, G. R. | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) | |
| Monslow, W. | Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mr. Pearson and Mr. Watkins. |
§ Resolution to be reported.
§ Report to be received Tomorrow.